WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1668 - Bowen Yang

Episode Date: August 11, 2025

Bowen Yang never thinks he’s ready for any of the opportunities he gets, including being a guest on WTF for this episode. After a discussion on who gets more nervous before interviews, Marc or the guest, Bowen explains where this lifelong anxiety and insecurity comes from, and a lot of it is rooted in the gay conversion therapy he had to undergo as a teen. They also talk about the vibe of Saturday Night Live during this second Trump administration and the pressures that come with being the gay Asian SNL cast member. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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What the fuck, next? What's happening? I'm Mark Maren. This is my podcast. WTF. Welcome to it. So what's going on? I got, uh,

I got Bowen Yang on the show today. What a treat that was. We've been trying to get this talk together for a while. You know him. He's a cast member on Saturday Night Live. He's also been in Wicked Bros and Dix, the Musical, which was a fucking crass, beautiful piece of work. He's nominated at the Emmys of this year

for Outstanding Supporting Actor in a Comedy Series, and it was just a very classic kind of episode. classic kind of engagement and talk that is what makes this show compelling to me for all these years, and I'm sure compelling to you. I know that a lot of the stuff I've been talking about out there in the world and a lot of the clips from my special have kind of taken off. And between us, I mean, me and you, my audience, I've been talking about this shit for over a decade. and I kind of keep it here with us and making the rounds of podcasts it's just I don't know why

you know I feel you get to a certain age where zero fucks are given but also it's like someone that's got to fucking say something and the truth is like I don't know that I see myself as a courageous person because it's hard to put yourself out there like that and and then sort of see what happens it's it's scary and it's a little overwhelming but it's not some sort of act of courage in my mind it's just i'm just a kind of person that's

has to speak their mind because i live in it i live in my mind i live in the world and my mind processes that and then i have to talk about it uh somewhere with different degrees of aggravation but certainly in the climate we're in now, I just couldn't help myself. And a lot of times I don't necessarily say exactly what I mean because I just don't want to shoulder the burden of that. But I always get to a point in most situations where I'm going to unload and if it's not personal or based in spite,

then I have to accept it as the way I see things, as a judgment or a piece of criticism or just what I believe. and what gives me the right to do that, me, me, who am I to judge me? I mean, who else is there? How diplomatic do you have to fucking be, you know, because you're in the same business or you don't want to hurt someone's feelings, yada, yada. And eventually, if it's the right day and I'm sitting behind a mic and it's not mine and, you know, I'm going to pop off, I'm going to pop off.

But it's not going to be unconsidered. and you know the pushback from people that that that do not like your point of view the pushback front there's a lot of these debate points that you know right wing zombies and reactors use you know they use well listen to this old guy cranky old guy listen to the bitter guy listen to the cuck the idea that guys in their 20s who have zero game and can count the number of times they They've been laid on one hand, or the hand in their mind, or they only fuck that hand, calling me a cuck in its basic definition is fucking hilarious. No game. Just guys out there trolling around looking for their fascist fuck doll with a mouth that looks like it's been hit and covered with gloss and, you know, some sort of blonde spectrum hair. the dream girl who doesn't talk they fantasize about it all the time but usually again it's that hand if you don't have a count you got the hand but nonetheless i don't want to drift on that so look folks this is an ad by better help the idea of getting advice online seems overwhelming

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reactions to things i get all of that i mean i just talked talked to an old buddy i hadn't seen about a year had a massive heart attack my age and just sitting with him and talking through you know that journey of getting to the hospital and the nick of time getting the stint put in I mean, that's real fucking scary, real fucking hard stuff, life at this age. I talked to another buddy in mine at senior year, had a complete manic break, ended up institutionalized, diagnosed bipolar, got out, trying to level off on some medicine so he can function, and he's doing it. And oddly, with that guy, I'm like, why isn't this guy texting me back?

why is he fucking you know avoiding me or whatever and then you find out like oh my god dude well i'm glad you're all right that's life you got to sit down with your friends occasionally especially the ones you haven't talked to in a while and you're sitting there thinking they're an asshole for not getting back to you who the hell knows what they're going through these two guys hadn't talked to in a long time i started thinking about them and then out of nowhere one of them texting me i'm like that must be kismit coincidence mystical, God's hand, whatever you want to say, however you want to frame it, that guy was in trouble. He's okay. They're both okay. And it gets me into the present, and I had 26 years sober

on Saturday. Jesus, being grateful for what you have is a big deal. Being humble and trying to be human as hard as that can be, to be a decent human, especially when you're a flawed motherfucker, hard and God knows I've had my struggles and God knows I've made mistakes and God knows that ultimately I try to show up and do the right thing as best I can in the shadow of my codependency and my alcoholism and addiction but you know I have a path that I can I can walk with that and I've been walking it for better or worse sometimes I'm all in, sometimes not in at all, but aware, for 26 years. I know that sounds daunting, but on some level, at this age, the years are going by more

quickly, and all of a sudden you're at another benchmark, another year of sobriety. And I guess I do want to say because I field a lot of emails and I talk to a lot of people and I've talked about it here candidly that the idea of being sober if you have the bug or you just can't see it because you do not believe life would be fulfilling or interesting or exciting

without whatever you do, whatever you lean on, whatever you can't stop, I will tell you from my experience that's a lie actually things get even crazier once you get sober for a good few years you know you'll know a crazy you don't even have any experience with and that's the craziness of you arriving at you and then trying to yeah get that into shape who are you as a human when you're not kind of annihilating your possibilities in that department.

And look, I did it the way I did it. And I got it, you know, it was fits and starts for years with program. And eventually I locked in and I locked in hard and I rewired my brain. I let that program brainwash me. Because as I've heard before, my brain needed washing. I needed a template that I could work within that would make me a less selfish, less fucked up person that could take responsibility for his actions

and not annihilate himself with substances or alcohol. It's all up to you. But I just want to say without, you know, getting too much into it and not acting as a representative of the program. However you do it, do it. But just know that, you know, if you do it without support, you're going to go crazy.

and you'll probably, the way that brain works, it's going to lead you right back to where you left off, and that can happen with the support. But if you're going to let yourself go crazy because you're experiencing life for the first time with some clarity and sobriety, and you're not just jumping on some other bandwagon to fill that void,

bandwagon could be anything that doesn't destroy your life or things that do, you know, a person. I guess I just want to express that it's not necessarily easy to live life sober, but it is better because you're in life. And then you just have to reckon with your heart and mind and spirit, I guess, on some level. But I will say that it's worth it. And I will say that anything I have today, including who I am, but any success or any capacity to step up and do the work of life and of art I can do because somehow

or another I hit a point where I needed help and I got it and I stayed in it and no matter how hard things have gotten during that 25 years divorces, deaths, bankruptcy, I didn't drink, didn't use drugs, went crazy, used a lot of other things to try to keep my sanity to, you know, little success usually, but, you know, relief is relief. But look, it's doable and it's worth it because what you gain is who you really are. so that's my gratitude pitch that's my service pitch and you know that's my sharing the hope because you will lose the obsession to destroy yourself in you know fairly short time and then you just have to live with that squirminess but it's worth it even if I don't sound sober half the time you

even if I don't, in terms of not being drunk, but being a little brittle, a little dry, a little angry. Well, you know, look, I choose to hold on to the character defects that define my personalities if they're not too dangerous. And, you know, you can do it your way. You know, whatever you got going. So this episode is sponsored by Squarespace. We have a website that's powered by Squarespace,

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after this um albuquerque trip or no just just just with just the world it happened in albuquerque yeah yeah but to this point where i couldn't compartmentalize anything and everything was coming in at the same intensity right and uh and i and i and i think a good chunk of it had to do with accepting all right dude you're you're you're you know you're doing good but it's um it's it's it's also coinciding with like this sun setting yeah so that is also Crazy. Yeah, I can't really separate it all. It just all happens at once.

Are you anxious? I was on Wellbutrin. Oh, yeah. How did that go? Not well. What did it do to you? I was taking it while we were shooting Wicked. And what that was, and this is well documented,

was I was flying out of... Well, documented problem crisis. committed problem crisis. I was flying Sunday morning, first flight out of JFK on Sundays after an SNL. Right. So you're wasted?

I was, no, I was quite, I was, I was well behaved. No, but I mean, where you're tired? Just tired, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I would fly back and forth from London to New York, you know, Sunday to Tuesday, basically. And, or Sunday to Wednesday,

I'd have two days of shooting in London, and then I would fly back and do the show and, you know, it's like seven hours? Seven hours each way. I thought I could hack it with like neotropics

and like Red Bull or Celsius or whatever. I thought I could chemically get ahead of it and cut it and full breakdown. How that manifest? Just waking up and feeling

like I didn't know who I was, where I was, why I was there, like why I, you know, like, yeah. And so then and then I think I had to like, I, like, I, like, linked it back to the bulbutrin, and I was like, okay, it's not anxiety, it's, but it exists.

That is, like, a thrum, but I think the main thing was depression. And so, then we switched to, um, Luxor Pro. How's that working? Love, I love it. Really? And I'm on the lowest dose, and I've, I actually, no, I had to, I was, I had to split the lowest dose, and I was only taking half pills. And now I've bumped it up to just one cute little capsule.

And, and, and it, uh, it didn't mute anything? I don't think so. There was no adjustment? there was an adjustment oh no no there was a huge adjustment those first two weeks were those are no fucking joke and I I don't understand how people how anyone surmounts that and they stick with because it's like the two weeks the two weeks huh what did it do I'm asking for a friend really okay okay I'm I was I was so tired just languorous I like this is my thing I use a lot of I say two words I'm so sorry this is this is this is a product of like no I like it my

getting me on it like when I was like 12 yeah they're like you're gonna start studying with the SATs yeah yeah yeah we want you ready by 14 exactly yeah um but yeah I was I was so tired and then and then I think like through the morass you come out the other side you're like oh I feel great really just so one day you're like okay yeah kind of I think I think you'd love it huh I but haven't haven't I heard you talk about prozac though well that was for my cat got although yeah that was the And I hadn't done it in a long time, but like, I still believe that through radical self-acceptance that I can find. Which, it seems like you've arrived at.

I'm close. Yeah. But it's fleeting. You know, like I have four days of it in New York because I'm getting a lot of attention. Yes. But when I get home, I'm like, ugh. Mark. What?

I was texting Sarah Sherman and 80 Bryant before this yesterday and the days leading up to this. About what? I was just like, I'm so excited to do. this and your episodes are so great with him and isn't he the best and they were like he's the best and just just lots of feelings of love and join warmth towards you and so we're we're there as a resource for you if you ever need thank you if like off the press schedule you want like validation we we will be you can avail yourself yeah well that's what like that's one thing i realize, too, about, you know, guys who, or just people who operate at the level you're

operating at within show business, I think that whatever my anxiety or whatever I experience, I think it's some sort of self-protection of me getting there. Yeah. Because, like, there was, it's clearly no way, it's taken me a long time to frame that, like, even the S&L experience or whatever. It's like, I wasn't ready for that. I mean, if you're not ready for something and you get an opportunity, you're just going break apart.

I don't know that I'm ever, I've never thought I'm ready for anything. Okay, so how is it, the entry into it? Crazy. Right. I mean, like me getting SNL, at least, at least getting moved to cast

from the writers, from the writing job was, I think, I think the craziest experience I've ever had in my life. And just, probably traumatizing. Yeah. But yeah, I think it sounds like what you're arriving at, though, this week, doing Seth last night, is like, is what you were talking about this.

It's like, oh, I've been in that room. Yeah. Sure. Like, I've been in that room so many times in my life. But also not the, the panic of overthinking it. Yeah. Like I've got to, you know, this is got to, what if this doesn't, you know. I know.

And can I tell you? I was not overthinking this, even though I was telling. I was telling Sarah, I was like, I don't think I've ever been more nervous for something. Come on. You know, oh, stop. What are you talking about? I, this is, this is, and you're good at deflecting this kind of thing, but like, I think this is, it's, it's so cool. Yeah, it's funny because I always assume I'm more nervous than the guest.

Interesting. Really? Well, yeah, but I feel like we're peers, you know, but like if I'm sitting across from, if certain guests don't disarm me, along with me disarming them. Yeah. It's like, you know, you're sitting across from. Jessica Chastain, and I'm like, oh, my God, what look at her? What am I going to do? Right. So it's not debilitating or I think I can't do it, but I'm like, all right, is this a person? Yeah. Well, like, but and yet, where does your ability to disarm come from if you're like,

like, how is that? I don't know. How do you, I don't know how you square that with like your own. I approach them as a person. Okay, great. Unless I'm overwhelmed with fanness. Yeah. And that's only happened a couple of times, and you can hear it. Yeah. I'm just sort of like, oh my God, so you're, you know, like, like Anne Hathaway? What are you fucking kidding me? Yeah. Oh, but I think the way that you and I were introduced was actually quite nice and organic and lovely. It was like Lily, it was Lily Gladstone being like, we were all in Vancouver. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And she had just, I think she had just hung out with you or something.

Yeah, and she said you were doing a movie with her. With her and she was like, you know, like, Bow and Mark. Yeah. Okay. Let's do it. Yeah. And I feel like that was. And I feel like that was that's the perfect kind of landing for me as a fan so that you can receive me in a way that is not like a little bit like shields up like oh who is this guy no i know you are isn't lily great the best i mean she so her her and i our thing is that we are we are star siblings because the craziest thing that i've ever heard from someone in terms of like a cosmic sort of like spiritual connection yeah she was like no you're my you're my star sibling you're my star brother i was like What does that mean? And she was like, my mother was pregnant with a son named August before me and did not come to term.

And so, you know, it was this thing that she mourned her whole life. And then one day, years later, she sees you on SNL and we're watching SNL together. Yeah. And she goes, that's him. She goes, that's August. That's, that's, like, Lily, that's your brother. What? And that was like, that was the first thing, that was the first thing Lily told me.

Oh, my God. Betty Gladstone. Yeah. What a, what a fucking legend. But yeah, but like, no, Lily, Lily has that energy of like, she'll tell you something profoundly piercing in that way where you're like, well, I, like, well, we're connected for life, you know. Like, she has that effect on people. She brings in a fully mystical element.

Yes. That, you know, is not refutable. No. Because it just is. yes no yeah it just is you don't question it there's no like there's a reason why she's she's had the career she's had yeah even before killers it's like god she's a fucking yeah it was yeah i worked with her in that movie i did we'll see what happens with that but she was great she's just like what what like intense and you know profound presence who but like that doesn't

belie her own like sense of levity like she's still she's still she's still like funny and she's like oh yeah so i just talked to a nora yeah yeah i haven't heard i haven't heard the op-as so yeah because it yeah it's interesting that that over the years the experience of asian children of immigrants that they're like it rarely takes a different path i know but hers hers was easier than most right well wally wallie's great what her dad oh you know them yeah why i've Well, I've met him only a handful of times, but, like, on her, on the show that we did, on North from Queens, like, semi-autobiographical, like, I, I, I see her father and her family through Beattie Wong's portrayal of him.

Yeah, but he's, no, but, like, she seemed like he was really kind of integrated and kind of liked weird, interesting music. Yeah, yeah. And, like, he hung out at Barney's Beery. Yeah, right. Like, he's that kind of Asian. Like, I didn't have that at all. Where'd you grow up, though?

I grew up, so I was born in Brisbane, and then we moved to... Brisbane's like the worst part of Australia. Oh, stop. I mean, it's like, it's like San Diego. I guess, man. But when I was, like, when I went there and I did a few shows, I had Brisbane, Melbourne and Sydney, the Brisbane gig, people are like, well... Why?

They were like, it's the most righty kind of conservative. So I think, and you're not enjoying the beach there. All I know is I got there and they had to move me to the smaller venue. oh okay brisman sucks fuck brisman i don't know i have no emotional connection there yeah we moved when i was six months as soon as it was cleared to fly like we like my parents what have they end up in australia my dad was getting his doctorate in mining explosives engineering pretty specific pretty specific was it was that his passion growing up yeah he loved that no he i know he's just he's just a nerdy guy and i think he uh how'd they get out what was that so they

So my parents were part of the first class of Chinese youth who were able to leave the country for, like, advanced degrees after the cultural revolution. So, like, 85 or some such. So he has memories and lived through the cultural revolution? Yeah. They both, I mean, yeah, but they both do. Very different experiences. My mom was in, grew up in this city called Shenyang, which is Liaoning. It's also called Mukden.

A lot of Manchur, like, there's some Manchurian lineage there. My dad, meanwhile, was in Intermongolia. And we just went there. I have no sense of any of that. I was in Beijing once to do shows. And what was the size of the venue there? It was small and weird. It was for expatriates.

It was a show. Sure, sure. And they had just, that spy plane had just crashed there. Oh. The American spy plane. And we were told, like, you know, to stay away from that. but like I don't talk about the plane yeah don't talk about what are you going to say yeah I don't know but uh it was kind of like mind blowing and in odd you know being there yeah

it's because it's like for for me for an American it was like another planet of course I mean what the fuck is happening here I know I know and and uh in like the I became obsessed with the houtongs like aren't they so cool yeah I love the huthongs because it's the only thing that represents that in the dusty forbidden city that they don't even seem to upkeep they don't upkeep and still it's the most crowded place you've ever been but it's literally dusty and shit and they're just sort of like we got to do it you know but they don't do it no but they left it they could have just plowed it over i think they they put more effort into like re-embalming mow's body like a block away yeah embalm the forbidden city embalm the forbidden city yeah do something so when i was there i felt like the houtangs were some sort of honest representation of of how people live, sadly, at least in that city. Well, I think it's an honest representation of the way people lived, yeah, like probably before now.

Right. Yeah. Well, how'd your dad live? So my dad grew up in this mud and straw hut. Come on. In the grasslands, in the fields. But actually, it was, like, arid. And so they were, like, the family was, like, subsistence farmers.

And... What does that entail? Just, like, just... You grow what you can, like, canola flowers and potatoes. if the weather lets it lets it and you've got they they they told you this whole history they told me the whole history and we so when i was my first trip there was when i was when i was three i don't really remember it but that was when my when his parents were still living in this house in the in the mud and straw house and the mud and straw house and this was like their last year there because

my mom's side of the family had like worked it out through like all this like they like cut through all the bureaucratic nonsense of like because it's a whole thing to move a family out of like provincial life in China into the cities and like as they were developing and so there's just all this licensure and whatever the fuck and so like that had to happen

and my mom's side of the family helped with that and then you know we moved everyone from my dad's side of the family into the city and like I honestly don't know if that was necessarily the right thing to do for the grandparents for the grandparents for like my dad's side

because culture shock culture shock and like they I don't know like they were okay there In retrospect, it seemed like they were kind of happy. Yeah. And I think my, I think my mom would agree, but, like, everyone's fine now. There's no, like, there's no real hardship.

Everyone's great. It's just, this is all fresh because I came back Sunday. And where were you? You went to Mongolia? I went to Inner Mongolia. It's a misnomer because it's the province that is south of Mongolia in China. It's not technically in Mongolia. And you hadn't been there, but you'd been.

I'd been. Yeah. But the last time I went was 2016, and we still went to my dad's childhood home. So we go back and it's like, it's about to collapse, but we go and it's cool. Like he showed me, like this time you showed me like this little closet he built through the wall. It's like literally what that looks like over there. Yeah. We're in Mark's Hotel.

And just amazing. And there's other people living in it? No, no, no one's living there. It's a monument to Bowen Yang. To me? Yeah. This is where Bowen's father lived. This is where Bowen's father lived.

It's a little plaque hand carved. Oh, that would be fun. But we, so I posted, I posted pictures from there of me, like, standing in like a t-shirt and shorts. Yeah. I guess I, I, I, I, I, I looked like I, I looked like I just looked like I was of that place or something. Yeah, yeah. And I posted it to my Instagram because I, like, worked through a firewall. And then Chinese social media picked it up.

And then all the comments were, like, not even, not even expats. So it's like people, like people in China who, and there's a contingent there. And I texted, I even texted this to Lauren. I was like, you'll be happy to know this. There's a very spirited contingent of SNL fans who are Chinese and who love the show and whatever. What did Lauren say? Lauren said, hilarious, the power of YouTube. I'm just pithy.

But I, so, so yeah, like, so these pictures were posted. And then it kind of like proliferated through Chinese social media. And then all the comments were like, oh, my God, I had no idea. His family was from here. and they were a clips of me speaking Mandarin and they were like, I had no idea he could speak Mandarin and... Wow.

But corollary to it was I'd never come out to extended family. I'd never came out to anybody in China. And it's just my parents and I and my sister who are outside. And everyone in America. And who knows? Well, yeah, everyone in America knows.

I'm not worried about them. But I was, but I got a tutor in the months leading up to the trip just to be like, hey, my Chinese is fine. I don't have the vocab to, like, explain to them, like, what I do. Right. Like, what my work particulars are.

Like, what my life is like. Would that be allowed? It's allowed. It's just not, and it's not like a, it's just a cultural thing where it's like, oh, like, why would you be that, you know? Yeah. Because, like, coming out to my parents, like, the thing that they kept saying, my dad kept saying, was like, where I come from, this doesn't happen.

but what was the issue in the corollary to the corollary is that I like I was not I had never come out to anybody in the family yeah and I got this tutor just in case this just this last time you were there yeah this is just like the last couple months before the in your history you never came out you were you were found out I so I so this is the this is the found out part is like social media kind of the Chinese social media kind of did it for me because all the comments were like oh my God look at how straight he looks look at isn't that so funny and like they're referencing like sketches from S and where like we've done like meta takes on it where like I'm actually a straight person and oh really the gay thing is an act like and so like they like were referencing that and being like oh my god maybe he really is straight ha ha yeah and then over the week like my family like my cousins and my uncles were like Bowen like you're you're really blowing up like on these apps and the comments are so entertaining oh they're wondering where you're from and like they're it's it's just wow that must be so fun and like it was just always unsaid oh so to that part of the family the Chinese part.

To the Chinese part of the family. Yeah. Yes. And they were like, we're seeing it on our, like it's on our algorithms and oh, it's so, this is so,

this is so interesting. And they didn't say anything. They didn't say anything. But they had to have, but they're like, if they're reading through the, they're referencing the comments and half of the comments are, oh my God,

look at him. He's usually so fruity and look at him wearing like, you know, a nice button down shirt or something. Like, it was, it was really interesting. And then by the end of the trip,

like it just, just it didn't come up but the only thing I can clock from this time is that um you know in all my prior visits they would just ask you like starting from like the age of 14 they'd be yeah when are you getting a girlfriend to your girlfriend like we're getting married um and and and they and no one of that either none of that either so they know right but but in in in light of the cultural sort of reaction to it wouldn't that be a form of politeness and respect oh definitely I think I'm still not quite sure how I feel about it, but I am relieved that the conversation didn't have to happen because even with this tutor, like the week before the trip, she was

like, okay, let's do like some role play. I'm going to be, and she was very, she lives in China, but she's like very attuned to like Western culture and even gay culture. Like she, like, she gets it. And so, and I really looked out with her, but she was like, we're going to role play. I'm going to be your cousins. And we're going to be at this big banquet hall table with like, you know, all your relatives, because this is just what, you know, Chinese people do. And you're going to stand up and say, I'm getting... You're going to do, like, what a feeling from flash dance. She was like, she was like, and I'm just going to ask you questions that they would ask. So the first thing they would ask you is like, how much money do you make? Because that's what's important. And I was

like, okay, great, I can do that. And then laundry list of things. And then finally, she was like, and then I'm going to ask you, like, do you have a girlfriend? And then I was like, is that when I tell them and she goes honestly no I was like what do you mean she was like I don't think you should tell them I was like what do you mean like this whole the whole point of this was so that I could like work up to telling

them in Chinese like that this is who I am and this is how long I've known and whatever yeah and she was like how long did it take for your parents to come around and I was like oh like 10 years and she was like exactly like you cannot expect them to catch up to that like

catch up to all of this information So just drop it on them and then expect a reaction that's going to be positive. No, no way. But it is sort of interesting that you know they know. And I would assume culturally there's plenty of gay people that they know. And it's just unspoken. And they're probably just hoping for the best. Maybe that'll heal up.

Oh, interesting. Right. I don't know. It feels to me that even a lot of. straight parents who know that's the only way they can accept it

just by not talking by not talking about it as opposed to saying like what's wrong with you right out of the house just suck it up and maybe eventually learn how to

open up or tolerate yeah my only thing and I'm not owed this yeah I just thought this was like my one shot at like doing it in the first place because

they're like what are you doing get out of the house I mean, my parents didn't kick me out, but they were like, this is crazy. And where were you when that happened? This was in Colorado. Oh, yeah, border Brisbane. Then we moved to Ontario and then Montreal and then Colorado. So what's your citizenship?

Dual American Canadian. That's good. Yeah. Why are you saying like, no, no, I'm like, I'm like, yeah. Oh, you're saying like, don't be jealous of me. No, no, no. I'm just like, I'm just saying like, I'm very, I can leave. I'm good.

Like, I feel good about that. Yeah. But I'm just thinking about like the collective. mood of like what it means to like have both and I'm lucky to have an exit strategy that that is you know in paperwork right that you know find the papers first yeah well that I used to do a bit about that like about applying for Canadian permanent residency status because you know I don't want to be the the the Jew at the border without his papers when it goes down you know I don't be standing there holding a stack of scripts that I wrote that'll there's an exchange rate for that

Yeah, I'm sure. So you didn't come out, you were. I was found out, like, my parents found out. And then that, so that was not on my terms. But at this point, your father's established, he's working, you know, he's, he's living the immigrant life to his full potential. Yes. And he believes that, you know, like, if you do what I do, you can be a success.

Yes. Like the sort of crazy, insane blemish on the. that dream is like oh having like a gay son like that is and and there and there's some cultural significance to him being the eldest of his brothers yeah and that the son of the eldest brother even though uh you're the king that i well that i like have to like there's there's this meaningful lineage that i have to sort of uphold yeah as as the son of the like i don't i don't understand really how it worked like like it's all bullshit yeah i can say yeah as as as It's not tribal.

It's like a... Yeah, I don't know what it is. It's not cast, but it's... Filiol... Traditional, you know, kind of structures. Yes. Ancient structures. Yeah.

Yeah. Hegemony. Yeah, something. Neither of us are... Anthropologists. Anthropologists. But so what happens? So what happens?

Well, I mean, you know, it all worked out. Yeah. And part of me... It's going to have to, because at some point, you're like, it's got to work out. It's going to work out even if it doesn't work out. You've got to live your life unless you're fragile and, you know, collapse into yourself and fucking disappear. Which kind of happened. It happened during this whole, like, crash out with the wellbutrin.

Yeah. But anyway, I... Different reason. Different reason. So, but what does happen when they find out? Well, dad's an engineer. used to be a doctor. They are solutions-oriented people.

And so... But they're also humanists. Yeah. Well, they were like, we found this guy, this person in Colorado Springs, and we're going to go there. Colorado Springs,

that's the heart of it. That's the heart of it. Focus on family. Focus on the family, Omega Church Central. And this was right after... How gay was the guy that ran that place? So he was not super...

super gay at first blush, but then he let something slip on the last session. And it was really amazing. And can I tell you, he was like, so this was like, it was only eight weeks and the ultimatum was like, I could either stay in state and live with my parents in Denver

for college, or, because my sister was at NYU, they were like, or if you go to conversion therapy and see this guy, you can go to NYU and live with your sister. and these poor people didn't know that it's the gayest school in the country

but I went I acquiesced and my dad and I would drive two hours each way to Colorado Springs and those drives were actually like really good bonding time for us

feel like men God I don't know we just he would like go to cast Was he being overcompensating? No my dad is I don't know what is masculine

about my dad more than like I don't know like these like these these notions of masculinity in any culture are so silly, don't you think? Yeah, I don't, you know, I know that I don't, you know, abide or instinctively represent most of them, but I can, you know, I can, there have been moments where I get it.

Yeah. But it's a pretty broad spectrum. Of course. Unfortunately, the dominant spectrum now is not great. It's not great. Yeah. And I'll take my dad's, I'll take my dad's strain of that any day. day he's just like he's just like um but the weirdest thing about the far end of the spectrum

which is dominant culturally wise is they're so gay they're so gay i mean i can't when you i mean it's like the attention to this sort of like weird anal attention to their grooming and and then yeah yeah but but i like when i see pictures of groups of like young republican men i'm like oh come on i know let it go and the fact that these guys are trying to make themselves attractive to this you know this fictional woman that they think is going to reject them yeah or manifest as like these tradwives or whatever right right right it's like what are you going to do with that i mean like the lack of game that you can just see in all of these guys is like profound i know well whatever and and one thing about gay culture yeah you don't have to have any game as long as you have the parts that someone else likes you don't even have to have a dick like it's a lot more fun

it's a lot more fun yeah I had a professor in college that like I was sort of like he was sort of obsessed with me and I kind of let that happen because I was so fascinated with gay culture at the time it just it just seemed like even though I wasn't gay I'm like they're really having a good time

I think I used to do a bit about that I'd say like I think most guys are gay if you just relax oh yeah When you hear sort of effeminate dude's talk, like, you know, hi, you know, like, you're like, if you just let yourself do it, you're like, why wouldn't you do that all the time? It's so relieving. You almost want to kind of cry and be happy all the time. It's, it's so double-made hair in a way. Yeah, it is.

Yeah. It is. Let it go, man. Just relax. Just relax. That's why, I mean, like, me, like, reading all these comments on tiny social media about, like, how, like, usually effeminate I am. I was just kind of like, I was getting a kick. I was like, yeah.

like it's it's the water's warm like it's okay but it's weird like if i think about it even just talking to you now if i'm thinking out loud it's not really effeminent it's just a different male on the spectrum of maleness totally it's kind of it's kind of weird because i've never seen women act like gay guys right really like i you don't see a woman go like she's kind of like a gay dude i wait you should do a bit about this that's great but it's true what feminine quality is they talking about right like even the amplification or the the heightening in drag it's like they're not acting like women no that is no that is the thing that i want to explain to people it's like it's not men pretending to be women it's men

doing this heightened blown out it's like wrestling it's like pro wrestling it's just we're pro wrestling it's it's a heightened version of masculinity yeah it's it's it's it's the flipped version of that well i think that if they if there are people that say it's feminine it's that it's because they Their perception of what women should be is heightened. Yeah, yeah. And that's why they're so confused and aggravated with drag. They're like, why do I feel this way? Right.

Because she's being the kind of woman you want to meet. Right. Which isn't like a regular woman. Which is, yeah, that's that. That is the trad wife thing. Yeah. And like these, and like the incels are like, I like, I, I cut in early and said, oh, they want to meet this woman who's going to reject them anyways because that is kind of like the operational thing.

it's like, oh, they are working themselves up to be reject, to be turned down. So then they can like internalize this like rage at just all women. Yeah, they're total, you know, bottoms. They're totally. Yes, yes. And I have to say, like, I remember, I think it was like your Rupal episode years ago. I was like, I think that's one of my favorite episodes of anything. It was mind-blowing.

I love that episode so much. Yeah. I still think about it. But yeah, I think my dad, even though he was really, like, brandishing, like, a masculinity that he allegedly, like, represented. I'm like, I don't see him as this, like, I don't know, this, like, paragon of manhood either. Sure. Well, it was based in tradition, which that's the most interesting thing about it, because, you know, a doctor and an engineer, you know, you know. But I think there's two things working, right? It's their concern for your life.

Yes. And then the other thing is, like, you know, the role a man's supposed to play in their traditional point of view. Right. And those override, you know, what I'm sure is, you know, a deep love. Oh, 1,000 percent. And, like, in the time since, like, that is, we've all arrived at that. Yeah. And things are great.

I just think back to the China thing, back to, like, this recent trip. It's like, I was talking about this today in therapy. It's like, because what my tutor was also saying was like, all they care about really is like, if you're doing well and how much money you're making. And which is, you know, that's not her opinion. She's just like, that's the cultural observation. Right. She's making. And she was like, they won't care.

And I was like, okay, interesting. And I can't help but kind of think, is it a conditional thing? Like, would they be, would they not be as receptive to? Would they not be as okay with me being gay if I weren't doing okay? Does that make sense? Oh, I see. Would they accept you?

Yeah. If they could hang your lack of success on you being gay. Exactly. And I don't want to, I don't want to, like, I don't want to bro, like, breach that line. Sure. But, like, I think about that with my parents sometimes.

I'm like, this would be so, because they kept saying, we were just, and like, in our, like, unpacking them. this in recent years they were just like we're so sorry we did that oh really yeah yeah yeah of course they were like and i've talked about it enough uh like in interviews and stuff and i'm and i used to really be this red line i was like i don't want to talk about it anymore but now i'm like no it seems like we've all really if we've really moved past it then it's fine um but i but they were like

we're so sorry we did that we were truly just so worried that um that your life was going to go in a certain direction and that you would have been like completely I don't know like just just just just not okay like your life was going to fall apart and I was like okay cool so and that's also a concern that I think you know any that's right yeah of course but they couldn't unlock that then they couldn't unlock that then like and I can't help but wonder they're but this this sounds so shitty as a child but I'm like I just have to I have this thought experiment every now and then where I'm like well how would it be would that still be the same if if like

if success hadn't come right what I mean but you don't say that I don't say what I'm saying it now on a microphone in a microphone no bit at a microphone and a very very

uh on a podcast with a big audience yeah but but but I don't think that's an offensive thought but I do think it would imply that you hadn't done your side of the accepting oh right wow you're good you're really good

Good. Oh, Mark Maron. Oh, cool. That's, yeah, interesting. Well, yeah, because, like, in order for this all to work is you've got to let that go and, you know, feel the empathy for their situation. Yes. So if you were to say, like, well, what if you're still looking to, you know. No. Yeah. Yeah, you're right. It's not like that. Yeah, no, no. I mean, but the thought, of course, can be there. Yeah. Yeah, but it doesn't serve any purpose. It doesn't. And I don't even know what purpose.

It's sort of, I don't even know, I don't, I guess I don't know where I'm at with the greater family, like the, the concentric circles outside of like the immediate nuclear family of my mom and my dad and my sister are like, okay, cousins and uncles and then like Chinese nationals, like people in China. Right. Well, how did it end up? I mean, you're talking about that. Like when, upon leaving. Upon leaving, my brother-in-law and I were checking in and he was like, how you do? and how do you feel about this trip? And are you excited to go back to New York? And I was like, I'm really excited. He was like, okay, well, your sister is sad to go. And, you know, she's, her coming back here always reminds her when you guys would come as kids and how happy you guys were.

And seeing family is always very meaningful to her and touching her. And I was like, oh, that I totally relate to that. I just think I associate those trips. Even now, I associate those trips with being in the closet. Right. I, because I was always, it was like, especially like once I was a teenager and when we would go back, it was always about like, white lying and kind of covering and, uh, I just, I remember like my favorite cousin when I was like 14, like I overheard him in another room going to my mom and my sister. Like, Bowen kind of talks like a girl, doesn't he? And it like, it crushed me. Yeah. And then I was like, oh, well, then like, like, like, the jig is up and it's, and like, it's, it's, it's curtains for me. And, like, it's curtains for me. And, like, like, it's curtains for me. And, and, like, like, it's curtains for me. And, and, like, like, like, it's, it's curtains for me. And, and. And, like, Like, it's like, it's like, I can't uphold this lie anymore. And even still.

So you have PTSD from. Yeah. And so, like, I don't have the same sort of, like, unabashed, like, joy about going back there the way that my sister does, I guess. Right. And she was, and she had to, like, handle, like, three kids, like, three toddlers. She was stressed the fuck out. And Yang, if you're listening, I love you.

I can't believe you, you manage that trip like that. Yeah. I thought you were miserable the whole time. It turns out she loved it. I, and it's not that I was miserable. I was just like, I was, I understood something about those trips in total of just like, oh, these were, these were, these became very stressful for me at a certain point. And maybe it's, maybe the stress is gone now. Like, like, the internet and China kind of did something for me, but also maybe it didn't.

I don't know. Well, I mean, that kind of stuff is hard, you know, in terms of like, I can barely go to the comedy seller because I struggled so hard there when I was younger. That, like, I just, it's just sort of like, it all comes back. I mean, that's the problem, I guess, with PTSD on some level, is that, you know, it re-triggers it. So, you know, you go to the place and you regress. Yes. And you can feel that old you, you know, kind of taking hold. Yeah.

And the feelings are real. What are you going to do? And then is the inverse of that, like, you going to, like, the Seth Studio? I mean, like, oh, like this is where... Well, I mean, like, I go to the comedy show, and I think my problem is that I can't always see who I am in the world that I exist in

or my skill set. There's just something about, like, it's like when you go, you know, haven't seen your parents in a long time and all of a sudden you're 12 again. Yep, yep. And acting like that, yeah. There's some... That happens. Interesting. And I have to rise above that, you know, and just do a good set or whatever.

And you do, and you do that. Yeah, but, but the, The question I think that we're both asking is, like, is it necessary to do that? I think it might be. I think if you're, I think if you're aware, if you're like, if you're, if you're, if you've done the work on yourself as a person, like, it's not that you should or could or won't or what. It's like, you just do it. It just happened. I think what's similar about it is that you were, you know, in that time and, you know, in just as a younger comment.

too you're not who you are yet i mean and that and that's just part of you know if if you were gifted with you know the support necessary from an early age to sort of own yourself and have the freedom to do that good for you and go fuck yourself i can't i i don't i've never met a single comedian who's who's like comes from uh you know i think you've probably met more in sketch than you wouldn't stand oh maybe because the sketch is so collaborative that you you do you you kind of need to function with other people and have a little bit of an open heart to the experience. Yeah.

Whereas with stand-up, it's just me. And, you know, I'm well-guarded, and, you know, I'm here to shield myself and make you and entertain you with that. But that sounds so, that sounds so, I don't know, like, it's just my point of view. Yeah, well, no, yeah, it is. Like to be up there with your sword and armor.

Yeah, why not? I always am jealous of the stand-ups who end up at SNL, who just have um their ones that can work with other people the ones that can work with other people and then like Sarah's a perfect example of that I'm like oh you you've like you're good

like you know how to work with other people you know she'll say that there was a learning curve sure but like she's got that down I think what's great about her is that you know despite her journey into you know extreme self-expression I think fundamentally she's like

a you know a Jewish entertainer She is Borscht Belt Yeah, yeah, yeah. But she's like, and yet she's like, she's just, I think she's so many different intersections of things. Yeah, yeah, it's kind of crazy, right? She's Fran Dresher, but she's also like, I don't know, Phyllis Diller. Yeah, and Karen Finley.

Yeah, she carries, like she has, she has it all in her. I don't know. Shiny person. Shiny, I'm obsessed with her. Yeah, it's hard not to be. Yeah, because there's just so much, uh, Like, she's getting away with something and integrating a type of creativity into mainstream entertainment that rarely happens. It never happens.

Yeah. And I'm just, I'm proud of her. Yeah, me too. So, wait, tell me about the trauma of conversion therapy, though. Okay. Because, like, I mean, you were self-aware enough, but you seem pretty grounded in yourself. I imagine that you weren't only because you couldn't be honest. about who you were,

but it seems like the foundation of your emotional existence was pretty solid. I don't know. I still have this thing now where I'm like, oh, is the mirror, like, how many missing pieces are there?

Because it was shattered at a certain point. Right. And it's been like slow work to like put a bath together. Yeah, I definitely get that. And there's some pieces you're like, kind of glad that one's gone.

but I don't know what the pieces are I don't know what those I don't know what the missing I don't I've not taken the full inventory How old are you? 34 Oh you got time Really?

I don't think so Mark That's to happen now Yeah Or maybe it's like It's like when your bone density starts to go It's like I think it's irreversible Well you mean you can never find the missing pieces Yeah maybe

You just have to accept it You just have to accept it Oh to answer your question How Gay was how gay was the conversion therapist You know he let it slip by the end And his first thing that he asked me was, do you want this to be a secular experience or a Christ-centered experience?

And I was like, well, the fact that you're, it's like this, the most fucking insane illusion of choice bullshit I've ever heard of my life. Well, if I say secular, I know you're going to come at it from like, like the back end programming of that is, is going to be God, Jesus, and everything else. So I said secular, but it was like the entire time

it was like, you, you're a fucking kook yeah um that is kind of funny because he was really just assessing you know what his angle is exactly exactly um and they probably have it by rote they have it by road because they're dealing with with fundamentally lost people in a way yeah that's so predatory and weird i mean i just i feel for like i guess i'm lucky quote unquote yeah it's like 17 i feel for the people who like are younger are older oh yeah Well, I mean, and younger, I guess. I think I was right in that goalie lock zone.

The people that have to hang up their chaps. You're talking about the younger people? No, I, the people who have to hang up their chabs. Yeah. And there's this thing happening now, I guess, where, like, people are like, it's like people who, like, I don't know, it's people who, like, go back in the closet. Well, I think that's fear. And I think that in light of what we're going through culturally that, you know, I always wonder about that.

you know, especially with, you know, the gay community that has, you know, had to sort of define themselves in a way that other communities really haven't through their sexuality and through their choices in order to maintain strength and identity and culture, that I wonder how many people are just sort of like, that's just easier to shut up. Yeah. And not to go all, like, pro-natal, but I feel like the fact that queer people don't, have something necessarily like intrinsically built it in terms of like an old connecting with like an older generation yes means that it's just it's just harder to like get the connective tissue well yeah because all those old stonewall guys are really

old or dead yeah and like everyone and like the people who died during AIDS are dead obviously and like it's just it's hard to like as a gay person now it's like you have to seek it out like you can't like no one there's no brochure there's no like yeah I remember seeing a sketch at the Aspen comedy

festival it must have been in the 90s and it was the best thing I ever saw and I don't even know what happened to John Rigi do you know John Rigi? Oh yeah

Is he around? I didn't he wasn't he like one of Tina's guys now? Maybe that sounds right but he did a sketch at the Aspen Comedy Festival and the sketch was

it was this generational gay couple sketch you had this younger sort of you know dockers wearing khaki you know passing you know kind of new conservativeish gay couple

sure sure you know maintaining appearances and they invite this older couple over dinner and they show up you know full leather you know just you know kind of like dancing around yeah and the culture clash between the two generations was hilarious yes and very specific and i think it's sort of what we're talking about right but you're good with your parents and the trauma from the conversion therapy did not stick because you have a sense of humor allegedly but you must have known you know two days in you're like this isn't going to work i knew two days in it wasn't going to work Although, I mean, going to NYU, like, I did go back in the closet for a year.

And it was just, just like a, just like a, a little, an experiment. And I was like, I'm going to, if I'm going to, if everyone reinvent themselves in college anyway, yeah, I think a perfect place to do with New York City. So I tried. Not for that one. No. I genuinely had feelings for a girl. Like, I think I'm a McKinsey four. Uh-huh.

At Kinsey scales like, zero to five. Yeah. So I'm like, you know, yeah. Yeah. I could do it. My voice tracks. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, it was one year of being back in the closet and then as soon as my sister moved out, moved from New York City.

I, like, told everybody on the improv team. I was like, I'm gay. Let's go. Let's go! I think, like, Rachel Bloom was one of, like, the first people I ever came out to. She's the right one. She's the right one. But, yeah, the conversion therapist, just like, he, like, was telling, he, like, went into this anecdote about one of his.

quote-unquote, like past patients about like his car breaking down in San Bernardino and he had to go into a Denny's and then the waiter was making eyes at him. And then in the middle of the story, this guy, my therapist, like switches pronouns from he to eye without realizing. And he caught himself. And I was like, that was about you. You fucked that waiter. And this was like allegedly like a couple years ago.

So it's like, he, so that was like, that was the last session. And the session before that, my dad was like, can you give us like referrals for people who do this in New York? He's about to go to school in New York. And this guy's like, yeah, sure, I'll come, I'll come back. I have the waiter's number. I have the waiters number. Oh, God, yeah. But you're okay.

Yeah, I guess. But do you, like, do you feel like, I mean, there is sort of this. You know, it is, you know, kind of frightening, you know, culturally, but there is this, I imagine the pressure, you know, once you reach, you know, some level of gay icon status is maybe different now? Do you feel, you're talking about me? Yeah. Do you feel a responsibility? Not really. Oh, good.

I don't know. Because I don't know how, you know, these communities of, of. of people that are vulnerable to the type of violence or persecution just on a cultural level. And you're two of them. Oh, oh, interesting. You know, that, you know, I don't know if there's a conversation there. You know, I, I just, because, you know,

I just know, as a liberal person, you know, who speaks from that point of view, you know, there is an earth. to it. Yeah. You're talking about, you're talking about in terms of the way

that you present yourself? Well, just in terms of like, you know, because they're so fucking loud and their big, you know, passion for a freedom of speech just meant to be able to say, shut the fuck up with more confidence.

Or just a slur that they like. Sure. Yeah, it's all the same to diminish the voice of others out of intolerance and fear that, you know, you can internalize that. And just be like,

you know, what do I need to? fucking hassle for you know what I mean what do I I'll tell you what I I internalize in terms of like

like the way that I like am perceived yeah I'm like okay so perfect and perfect example with this old Chinese social media they're like oh but he's gay

and like on by and Lauren we're like ambivalent about that yeah and then in terms of gay people they're like oh but he's Asian and right and and there's no like

there's no like i don't know like there's no glorifying asianness in the gay community necessarily so like either way you don't get the same fetishization that you get in the straight community exactly are you jealous aren't you jealous of my my Asian figure yeah i don't know um my lie the asianness it doesn't it doesn't play i mean to some people it does they're fetishists for everything sure um but i yeah maybe that's like it's it's so like mutually deleterious in a way that I'm like okay I like I don't have to worry about this yeah I really generally don't care oh good and I think people I think I think I'm like just the right amount of disliked yeah and just the right amount of like no well we don't really care for it like we don't

care about him right what he says yeah well I mean I think that's I think that's good if you can you know hold that space in that you know the hate isn't so profound that you know it makes you, you know, frightened or sad. No. Yeah, that's good. Yeah. And so you can just kind of do what you do.

And, you know, you got your space and, you know, all right. Yeah. I'm just going to be me, finally. Well, and we'll see. We'll see what that's like. I, it seems like we're both, I think, I think you are in this, because of the, because this week is so, is so big. Yeah.

I think, I think, I, I, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I feel like that's where kind of where you're at. Yeah. Yeah. There is something happening. I love it. That has to do with a lot of things, you know, age being one of them. But, you know, because you do get this point, it's like, dude, how long are you going to do this shit to yourself?

Uh-huh. You know, like, time's running out, buddy. Yeah. You know, you better just, you know, because it's all fear, right? Really. Right. So, like, what are you afraid of? And if you really track that stuff, it's like, well, when I was seven, you know.

All right. So now you're 61. Maybe you can give that kid a break. I totally. You totally can. I don't think you need the Luxapro. Good. I've been pushing back against that for long.

I'm on some other stuff that I don't think is working, but the doctor told me it probably wouldn't. I'm on this busporin for anxiety, which is a more specific kind of dopamine-reepatic thing, but it's not a total SSRI. And he literally said to me, he said, this usually doesn't work for people. That sounds like the perfect medicine.

So if I think it's working, then that's great. And if it's not working, then, you know, not so good, but whatever. I'm familiar with that. It's like a meta-pliceba. That's awesome. Yeah, it can be, exactly. You can go either way. Low efficacy, meta-pliceva.

Yeah. So what, so how's it at S&L now? Everything good? I think so. I mean, I hope we're on the air. Why wouldn't you be? After this Colbert shit? You're at NBC.

Yeah, you're right. There's no, but like if they decide to merge out of nowhere, I don't know. Yeah, well, it's good happen to anybody, I guess. It's true. But it does seem, like, you know, it's in this current media landscape that it doesn't seem like S&L has to make an effort to create a clip economy. Like, it shows design for that. Totally. There's no, yeah, it doesn't have to change anything about itself.

Yeah. But, you know, God, I got dinner with Fantastic Writer Will Stephen. Yeah. And we were talking about this. We were like, okay, like, what's the vibe going to be going back? And, like, when we were both just talking about, we were talking about James, Austin Johnson. We were like, should he be worried at all?

Like, just all it takes is for Trump to say one thing, one thing about him. Well, you just got to, you know, kind of get some fortitude. Sure. I just think that guy is James. The best. I just, the most fucking talented. He's one of the best to ever do it. He doesn't get that credit enough, I think.

Yeah. I think he should be able to spread his wings and do whatever he wants on that show. But James is like his story is fucking tremendous. It's tremendous. That's a great word. The Christian entertainment. It's so fun.

He's so grounded in something that is, you know, truly his, that came out of struggle. Yes. Right? Same with you. Yeah. I mean, when you've got to really fight for your autonomy from, you know. From Colorado Springs?

Yeah. Dogmatic restrictions. Uh-huh. It's, uh, you know, when you finally win that fight, you're like, oh, my God. Oh, I know. It might be the best. He's just, he can, like, he's a gorgeous singer. The Dylan thing is the best.

The Dylan thing is the best. He's such a good actor, just on just, like, on a baseline level. Sure. And the way he improvises within Trump, you know, on the, when, on the old videos he used to do, just walking. It's crazy. It's just so crazy. Because you could tell it's, like, it was just generating. He's easy in the pocket. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So anyway, we were just like, we're just talking about him. It's like, anyway, we're not, I don't want to like engender any sort of fear on anyone's behalf, but it's just like, I just think I'm interested to see what the show will be like. Well, it seems like he's, you know, that this is weird when you have to talk about a president like this, that his form of micromanaging is being offended by, you know, comedian. Yeah, right, right, right, right. And you just don't know where it's going to land and for how long. Of course. But, you know, he had an axe to grind with Alke Baldwin that preceded. yeah you're yeah totally you know

SNL like that guy was always up his ass for whatever reason and I think now it seems like he's he's not paying a lot of attention to SNL right because he doesn't because he doesn't feel like he needs to and there's not someone there that he's like you know fuck that guy

totally but also that scares me too like this South Park thing comes out and everyone's like yeah and and but you know he's not really even engaging with it because would it be better if he wasn't but I guess they kind of were in the beginning but yeah are you saying like it would be more interesting if it were not more interesting it's just that like you know within an authoritarian

system there at some point you know even the ones that are more organized in his they they have to allow some of that yeah to keep you know to keep the left disillusioned like if you shut down everything then you have you know mal right you know he's doing it very selectively but he also knows that he's up against a lot more people and that he can't just go shooting everybody just well not yet they're still at Mexicans

yeah but eventually but I do think that you know culturally in order for America to exist in the illusion that there is some sort of two-sidedness

that stuff is tolerated that's interesting like you have to keep you have to like keep the illusion going you have to water like the opposing

plant that's right terrible metaphor. I don't know what that means. But that's a, that's an articulation of control as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But like, because like, like, like, from what I understand about the Maoist revolution, I mean, that was, you know, you're going down, dude. Everyone gets on board or you're going to go to the camp or you're going to get killed. God. It's. We're not there yet. We're not there yet. But I, I mean, there was like, there was like a ripple of that, like, that, like, went through my body, like, when we were just, like, getting off the train station. There's, like, a giant, mouse to, I was like, okay, well, like, is this, is this a, I don't know, I just, I don't know. I thought that, I thought, like, in the first Trump term, that the, the analog to that here is just his constant need for attention. Right, right, right. It's not a, a sort of a mythological power. Right. But you couldn't get out from under him. Because every five minutes, he's saying something, and it's like on your phone. Totally. And it had the same impact as Stalin or Mao pictures everywhere. It's just like, he's everywhere you look. And you know what? Mao kept the Hutongs. You know what I mean? He destroyed everything else, but he kept the Hutongs intact.

Right, right, right, right. He's nostalgic about the Hutongs. He's nostalgic about the Hutongs and like, what is, what is S&L if not an American cultural Hutong? So, wow, you're right. Thank you for, yeah, assuaging that. Was that good or bad? I loved it. Oh, good.

I can't say, we'll see, time will tell it. I don't know. Yeah. We'll refer back. to this. But how do you manage your life now? Not well, I think. Well, I mean, compared to shooting Wicked, it's much better. I mean, this past season was a lot, but it was very fun. Yeah. And how do you choose other projects? I don't have like a decision-making apparatus. I'm just like, oh, am I free? Then great. Yeah, yeah. Like, I'll just take what I can get. Right. But are you doing bigger parts? Do you

are you finding it challenging or you feel typecast or you know you're there to deliver that bow and magic you're dream of national or just no i'm talking about other movies and things um i don't know i wouldn't mind i wouldn't mind just like doing the thing that i've been doing i don't play like a sidekick anymore necessarily right right it's a lot of that stuff yeah but i don't know i'm just i'm just lucky yeah i'm not one of those people who has to like constantly push it forward. Yeah. I think,

like, I'm okay, just kind of, like, parking it somewhere and just being like, this is good. You know what I mean?

Yeah, I've been parked for 16 years. And isn't it great? Yeah, it is. You know, but for me, like,

I'm finding that, like, there are some things creatively that, you know, when you put, when you focus on the one thing and you're a creative person,

and then you become sort of good at that. Mm-hmm. And proficient, you know, there are things in my life that I'm like, well, I,

to continue to take risks to feel that, you know, to fulfill that other part of my, you know, desire to do something. Yeah. Like music or whatever. I'm not saying I'm going to make records or anything, but there is, you know, there's still a rounding off of, I think, the, the, the, the broad spectrum of my creativity that I'd like to do. Like, I'd like to figure out how to play characters, like you guys that are able to slip into characters. I, it's like... But in what context of like a sketch show? Or you just mean like for like other movies and TV. There's certain things that I'm too self-conscious to do.

One of them was singing and playing. And you've done it? Yeah, I've been doing it. Yeah. And the other is like, you know, immersing in like a wacky character. That's fun. I mean, but. But to me it's like, it's too scary because like the nervousness of occupying it

and then not getting laughs. I don't know if I could handle it. Interesting. Because there's always part of me that's sort of like, hey, it's me, man. I can do the other thing. I can do me. uh-huh yeah because i didn't come up in sketch and i never did that was glow your first big acting thing after marin yeah after marron yeah yeah oh sorry yeah of course sorry yeah but that was me

learning how to do it right yeah yeah yeah but like for me a character just means like well this guy's not neurotic so turn that off you know and yeah and and and sort of occupy this other part like i do have a a pretty big uh menu of male actions it's great yeah i think i think i think I think there's nothing wrong with. I think my menu of gay male actions is a nice buffet. It's like I can, I'm happy at the buffet. I don't have to go to another place. That's just how I don't know.

Maybe maybe that's the totally wrong instinct to happen. I should be wanting more for myself. Yeah, no, but I mean, it'll come when you want it. I mean, you don't have to want it now. No, you're right. And sometimes the opportunity will reveal itself and be like, oh, that's scary. Maybe I should do that. That's great. My only thing about SNL at least is that I'm like, I can feel and this is not, I don't want you to like push back on this necessarily or like this is not fishing for anything. I can feel the audience getting sick of me. I can feel things just kind of like turning. You want me to push back on your cry for help? Yeah. Is that what this is? Shit. Oh no. I just, I can just tell. I'm like and like you, I used to be someone who was like always going for the laugh, always dead.

desperate for it. And if it didn't happen, it was devastating. And I feel like what the great thing that Asana is done for me is just, it's kind of inoculated me from wanting it all the time. I did that in stand-up where like I intentionally learned how to sit in the silence because I don't think that, I think that's impactful. Yeah. And that it doesn't mean it's not funny. It just means it's landing in a different way. Yeah. Like the idea of constantly going for laughs is, and I did it in this special. Like there's literally a section where after I lay out the politics with with no hope in sight, I'm like, well, I can be entertaining. I don't think that's why I got into this, but I can do it. And I just laid into that. And I'm really on this weird precipice of like,

why don't you just be funny? Be more funny. Because I think I feel like I have a social responsibility to kind of go deep in myself and then also lay out my political positions. But I know how to be funny. But it's actually more work. It's so much more work. And I haven't admitted that to anybody. It's easier to, you know, kind of be philosophical and provocative because you're not expecting the same kind of laughs. And then when you don't get them, you're like, well, that's because it's, you know, it's a little much for them to take in. But to just really focus on like being just laugh per minute funny, that's a job, dude. That's, you're so right.

Because being philosophical is the like, the diametric opposite of like what other let's say comics do like where they're like they say like a crazy shocking thing yeah right right right yeah to get the laugh that requires them to work a little huge yeah and when that works you're like yes and that's like because then you know you kind of blew a mind a little bit i love that yeah but you know the kind of like just goofier shit which you can load up pretty good and you can turn phrases that'll do the same thing, but to really, like, tell a story or do a run of jokes that are just laugh, you know, kind of maximize. I mean, that's a pretty great feeling, too. Yeah.

But you realize, like, God, it'd be a whole hour of that. Is that really what I'm supposed to be doing? Yeah, and the work. And then that's the work, and that's a lot of work. Yeah. I, oh, that's really nice, Mark. I feel like you're also clarifying for me that I might be going about this

the wrong way at SNL where it's just about like it's just about what's immediately gratifying to both the audience and to you as a writer because you're just like okay like we've only got two days to do this let's just like load her up with like quick little jokes

yeah yeah yeah yeah I can tell you breaking news I never want to play a fucking inanimate object ever again I never want to like I don't want to really go for like the low hanging like gay male fruit but it's kind of what like

sometimes I don't want to blame anybody but it feels like it's what people sort of like internally want me to do and I try to push back on it as much as I can and and if you go and find the weird stuff that's like a little more out there and like a little bit more risky

or risk taking I should say like it's there it's just like it I guess it just doesn't get the same kind of like response well how does Lauren react to it I think Lauren just I think Lone just wants it to be a good show for everybody, no matter of. Every episode, he really wants it to just be the best show. He's like that kind of impresario person.

He's just like... It's interesting kind of the techniques. And it does seem like it would be pressure to be the gay cast member. And I want there to be... Like, I want there to be others. Yeah. You know? And there are.

And there have been. I just like other gay men would be so fun. But I think like, you know, when you think about like hater or something that, you know, the other techniques to comedically, like, there's, you know, like, to figure out how to do slow burn stuff, you know, like, I guess it's just an applied, you know, like, to, to see a different timing to how you want to present something. Yeah. To at least, you know, challenge that part of yourself. I know. And I have it, I have it really good there, you know. I just think we still, it's still a huge cast. Yeah. And. And. And. I have it's still, I have it's still a huge cast.

yeah and there's just no none of us can afford to like go for the slow burn stuff yeah yeah yeah it's like okay well this is i'm only in two things this week and i gotta make him count and there's like 10 that aren't going to be on exactly and you know four performers that aren't going to be on this week so so there's a moment where it's sort of like well they'll just throw that in there right and like this is gonna you know i'm in now right yeah yeah yeah it i mean there's there's there's only so so many minutes in the show sure yeah yeah yeah on top of their only being there being this many cast members and on top of their being like okay well how do you get everyone to score and it's it's just all these things like i think like working there is yeah i don't

know well okay yeah being back on the eighth floor this week like did that was there was there a regressive no no okay great no because like um i loved doing conan yeah and and you know whatever evolved between me and conan the thing i realized i think i talked about it on the on that opening you listen to. It's like, I was always trying to do well. Yeah. It's just like people didn't know me. Sure. And I was a lot. So when I, you know, when I come out with, you know, hot, coming hot, people are like, who the fuck is this guy with you? So, like, I can forgive that. I don't, I don't have any of that going back there. That's great. I, you know, I'm always happy to be on that floor and to, you know, and I love Seth. I mean, Seth is great. The best. But I was,

I was even asking, like, being on that floor and, like, having, like, the SNL doors be right there like oh no no i mean like you know three days of my life you know and um i don't can't did i even audition in the studio i didn't think i did because i wasn't a character guy i think i was being if anything looked at for update for update yeah so like i didn't have to go through that sure sure sure like i didn't go through the whole sort of like you know on stage doing character saying bless i just had the meeting with lorn great but like i can't even remember really that that office until i was back in it like that that wasn't the trauma the trauma was like you know how did i fuck this up right right right yeah and and and you're the you're the candy guy

yeah yeah yeah i was looking for that in my meeting yeah no he's he swears it was tootsie rolls and i gotta believe him oh yeah might have been tootsie rolls yeah my you're your your your your waiting went better than than mine the first i i auditioned enough times the first the first the first meeting i took with him totally bombed didn't get it yeah and um It was because I came in hot. And were you already writing there? No. So there was one whole year between, I auditioned four times total.

Yeah. And two times the first year in 2017, made it to the Lorne meeting. And the first thing out of my mouth, I came in hunt. He was like, who the fuck is this guy? I was like, by the way, I'm Canadian too, and I speak French fluently. And I grew in Montreal. And oh, my God. And he was like, what?

And didn't get the job. And they just called me back in a year later. and then by then it was fine but it was just like I that first I felt the spiritual connection to you after I fucked up that meeting so so hard well I mean when I was there it was like it was Lorne and then Higgins came in

and he's like looming over Lorne it was like that fucking Godfather and they're just both looking at me like am I supposed to be exuding something what am I you know and I was cocky and I don't feel any real trauma about that shit anymore that's I love that

well I think by virtue of realizing that I was not ready to do it I never thought in terms of a career and show business or how to get a job I was just a fucking monster

it's just a comic you know and so there was nothing calculating in my head like I had no angle you know I was just sort of like this is me man what do we you know

yeah whatever whatever okay good but I was asking like being back on a okay so no that was not regressive in terms of the SNL great but also talking to Lauren I mean and him giving me two days that was the funniest part about it it's like you know he had to be somewhere and we did like an hour or so and he's like did you get what you needed or you need to come back and I'm like yeah I could come back okay you know and so I love it and I really it really humanized him yeah you know he isn't and he is and I just an appendage of that

floor and he's been walking those hallways for like 40 fucking years You know, and he's a TV producer. Yeah. And, like, and he lives there. Okay, fine, he's got a billion dollars in the house in the Hamptons, wherever the hell it is. But, but day to day. He's never, he's never missed a show, you know, yeah. He's just the guy who works at that place and runs that shop.

It's weird. Maybe I'm, I'm being so. It's weird, but it's also, no. And I, and I, trust me, I'm like, I'm someone who's like, Lauren, you goof, but I, but I think about it. And I'm like, oh, it's also incredible. And whatever. Yeah, yeah.

It's everything. So what, um, what is this award show of C-Signs for? Oh, it's, so, oh, Matt, my friend Matt Rogers and I have a podcast. Yeah, for years. He was the, he was the gay guy in the sketch group at NYU. I was the gay guy in the improv group. And then, uh, we became friends. We did sketch together after school, after college, I should say.

Yeah. And then, uh, started this podcast, didn't think it would go anywhere. And then it's been like the most consistent thing. And then we did a bit a few years ago where we just like had no guest on and we were just kind of like unveiled a list of 100 categories and like 10 nominees in each one. And then we were like, okay, well, we'll announce the winners at a later date and just no plans to like actually produce anything, make anything out of it. And then we did it at Lincoln Center one year because we got an offer to do a slot there. Like, what should we do?

Oh, we can, like, pretend the awards are a thing. Yeah. And then we just did that over, this is our fourth year doing it overall, but our first time doing it on TV. And so, yeah, it's just been... It's just a made-up award show. Made up award show.

That's all it is. Yeah. And I guess, last question, is there... Because one of the surprise kind of results of me doing WTF was that it really was helpful to a lot of people. Is there a gay Asian contingent of your audience that is grateful to you?

Oh, yeah. I feel like I'm really lucky in that gay Asian contingent does reach out every now and that. And that is really, yeah, that's crazy. And they see representation. Yeah. I think the touching thing about the China social media moment was that they were like, wow, like, kind of crazy. like this guy like is on a show like SNL like that's pretty that's pretty wild because like like there would be there would be a lot of breakdown videos where people would be like okay here's

who this who this guy is and here's what he's known for and then one of the things was SNL and they were like you know SNL has always been this wonderful sort of cross-section of American comedy and different people from different walks of life coming and just different comedy disciplines yeah arriving in at different moments and like they were just like you know this is this is a guy who came up in his own weird way and I think the the definitive thing about SNL now is that it is it is a very to Lawrence credit it's a very great cross-section of comedy today yeah where you have you have club people you have old people you have sketch people you have groundings UCB people but you also like TikTok comedians you have like like there's no

there's no discriminating thing there right you know he knows how wide open the field is exactly and he's uh you know taking advantage of that i think so and and like somehow we all work well together that's good and the the reconciliation with shame was that real what what are you talking about like the hug well i mean did was that because that was they made a lot of hay out of that it did and you know i just wonder what the real feelings were the real feelings are i think like we have nothing in common but i think we like there's like a mutual sort of respect from afar i think a funny guy funny guy

I think the trauma that I was talking about in terms of being moved to cast was like I think I'm still dealing with like

being being implicated in some way and this like one of these like big national stories about cancel culture

yeah like I still I think I'm still working through that yeah because you didn't volunteer for that no and neither did

and like what I want like what I just want what I think is important is that like he and I had like in that weekend like a moment of connection just to just to be like hey are you okay

because this is crazy what you mean when it happened when it happened yeah like when he was in the building so I so like so I don't think he was that we were in the building at the same time but like it was announced on that day and then I like that he had gotten fired or got that the three of us that me Chloe and Shane were hired and then I like got up early I went to the park I like meditated and then And I was like, okay, my whole life's about to change. Celebratory moment. And then I took a nap. And then when I got it, we had the same agent.

Yeah. So when I got up, my agent calls me and she's like, I'm so sorry. And I missed all these. I had all these missed calls. She was like, I'm so sorry. I was like, what are you talking about? Then I find out about it. And then my first instinct is, the first thing I tell my agent is, do you have his number?

Like, I need to call him. Yeah. Like, I just need to like check in and see like where he is. Yeah. So like there was no reconciliation. And you had met before or no? We'd not met before. Oh.

And so the reconciliation. is that like was that would happen like on that day that it all broke it was just like hey like we're we're two human beings I don't know like I don't know you from Adam I don't know your comedy from anywhere and I think he could say the same for me it was just like I think these are like human beings at the center what was the conversation so he did not get back to me until two days later yeah and speaking of Aquafina I was on set for the show yeah for Nora yeah ironically I was like on a set with like a bunch of other Asian people You know, it was just this thing of like, whoa, like, everything about that moment was so weird and kismity and, I mean, it all broke in this way.

The reason it resonated was because of, like, the irony of the coincidence of the hirings, right? And so the conversation later was, like, just he called me back and he was like, hey, this is crazy. How are you doing? I'm so sorry. Like, blah, blah, blah. um it wasn't like i was just joking no no way he i have no idea what his i still have no idea what those days were like for him but then i was like hey look like let's like well we can make it work yeah it's like whatever like i'm like here for you question mark and i said and i'll

see you at work yeah this is before they announced the firing and i was like i'll see you at work and then he i think at that point he knew something that i did and he kind of laughed and said yeah sure and then we hung up because I think at that point he had been told that he was not going to work. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so the fact that he's been back

like multiple times is like that's like, there was just nothing to reconcile but I think both of us have had to like navigate like... Being used. Being used. Yeah.

Yeah. And I think there's, there was like a recruitment going on either side of like if you like this guy then this is what you stand. for. Right. And if you're like this guy, then this is what you stand for. I think both of us are like probably a little bit more dimensional than that. Yeah. Totally. Usually is the case. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well,

it was great talking to you, pal. You too. Sorry if I was long winded. No, you're not. Okay. Did you feel good about it? I feel great about it. Good. There you go. What a great talk. What a great guy. He's up for outstanding supporting actor in a comedy series at the Emmys and hang out for a minute, folks. When does fast grocery delivery through Instacart matter most? When your famous grainy mustard potato salad isn't so famous without the grainy mustard. When the barbecues lit, but there's nothing to grill, when the in-laws decide that actually they will stay for dinner.

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Build yours today atrangerover.ca. Hey, next Monday, my guest will be Ben Stiller. And if you have a WTF Plus subscription, you can go all the way back to episode 79. That was the first time I talked to Ben on the show. It was a big deal. And this was back in 2010. Tropic Thunder, I think, is one of the best Hollywood satires ever. Oh, thanks.

And I had to watch it a couple of times to really see that there are some jokes and there's some nuances in there that are going to be lost on a lot of people. Right, right. But nonetheless, you know, you really took on the monster that feeds you. Right. Yeah, for sure. But, I mean, that never was an issue for me. To me, that's actually where I've always gravitated. I know. Then Stoer's show did that as well. That's always where I've found, you know, that's the humor that I've enjoyed is the, you know, where you are able to make fun of this ridiculous world and how caught up we all get in it and be able to look at, you know, ourselves and see that. But I thought that thing did it in such a way. Like, I didn't feel like, obviously, you know, a threat to the industry is decided. that's decided upon whether or not

it makes a lot of money. Right. So, so on some level, you know, you were protected there because the movie did well. It did well enough, yeah. The, you know, when you really, you know, when you break it down, I think the real chance that was taken was by the studio to make a movie that was that, you know, that big budget of a movie that

that was about a subject matter that historically has not really ever been successful at the box office. When they decided that, was it, was there decision based primarily on, you know, you being in it and Jack being in it, and downy. I mean, were they like, well, how can we lose? I think, no, you know, I honestly think it was a unique situation at a studio, DreamWorks that it was not, you know, has changed in the last

couple of years since then. I think it was a moment in time. I don't think that movie could get made today at that budget. Right. Because everything has changed so radically in the last couple of years. Right. That's episode 79 with Ben Stiller. Get that episode in every WTF episode, ad free with a WTF plus subscription. Just go to the link in the episode description or go to WTFpod.com and click on WTF Plus. And a reminder before we go, this podcast is hosted by ACAST. This guitar bit here is a little swappy, but I do think I landed on some kind of ACDC-ish riff in the midst of it.

All right. So here, here, here, take it. I don't know. I'm going to be able to be. I don't know. I don't know. You know what I'm going to do. I don't know.

I'm going to be able to be. I'm going to be. I'm not I'm going to be able to be. I'm going to I'm going to I'm going to and

I'm going I'm I'm I'm going to be able to be. Boomer lives, monkey and lafonda, cat angels everywhere.