WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1672 - Jeremy Allen White

Episode Date: August 25, 2025

Jeremy Allen White played such a believable Bruce Springsteen in the movie Deliver Me From Nowhere that Marc, who was also in the film, can recall times on the set when Bruce couldn’t tell the difference between recordings of himself and recordings of Jeremy. But for Jeremy, that’s all part of the process of finding his focus, something he’s tried to do since he was a kid taking dance classes and playing sports. Jeremy and Marc also talk about Shameless, The Bear, The Iron Claw, panic attacks, and getting your life under control.Click here to submit a question for an upcoming Ask Marc Anything episode. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Get a free betting bundle when you buy now at loganandcove. That's CA slash podcast. Lock the gate! All right, let's do this. How are you? What the fuckers? What the fucksters? What's happening?

I'm Mark Maren. This is my podcast. Welcome to it. It's called WTF. What is happening? How's everything going with you? not getting any easier really is it but uh i'm trying to level off i'm trying to get out of my head or maybe you know spend at least half the day outside my head is that possible i'm talking

about real time not head time i'm starting to realize head time is much different than real time and i think head time is eating up a lot of my uh my real time if that makes sense maybe I'll try to explain that. Before I get thinking out loud, I'd like to say that Jeremy Allen White is here. He's here today. It's going to happen. You know him from the bear, shameless, the Iron Claw, and he's playing Bruce Springsteen in the new movie, Deliver Me from Nowhere. Look, I met him on set.

He was very into his work. And as I learned during the interview, he wasn't feeling that well. The day I met him, he was exhausted and maybe a little under the weather, but we talked a little bit. I had no real sense of how we would be on here, but we had a great conversation, and that's, we talked about a lot of stuff, and he's a very engaged and thoughtful guy, so that's going to happen. Now, still kind of coming down from all the press and the couple weeks that the special was up there, kind of leveling off into the work. again and I'm not even sure I want to do that I I do not know how to stop I do not know and given that my show at Largo this Thursday is sold out but I'll be back there with the band on Wednesday September 10th I'm also doing this little show that probably could use

some love it's a it's a small show Tuesday night I'm doing it with Ali Makovsky and it's her show and they do sort of I don't know if it's it's every Tuesday or or it's once a month, but I will be there tomorrow night. It's called Last Tuesday Ever. It's a bad ladder. It's me and Adam Ray and a couple other people. Very small show, though. So if you want to see me in that kind of environment,

I will throw the link up there at WTFPod.com slash tour so you can get tickets for tomorrow night. Also, we'll be doing our final Ask Mark Anything bonus episodes next month. So send in your questions. Just go to the link in the episode description of today's show. and send me whatever you want to ask. The Ask Mark Anything bonus episodes will roll out for full Marin subscribers in a few weeks. And that's what's up, you know.

I mean, I believe that they posted my Pod Save America episode. It's weird. I had not been in that environment in a long time where the sort of drive of the show specifically to talk about politics and try to infuse that with a little hope, which I'm not great at in that world at this point in time, the political world. But I think we had a great conversation about a lot of stuff so you can check that out. And I can't say enough that if you want to go look at the work of a guy calling himself

Elephant Graveyard on YouTube, it's definitely worth looking at. He's the Adam Curtis of doc making about comedy. And the last two have been amazing. I've got to be honest with you. Yeah, if you go to YouTube, he's got a channel there called The Elephant Graveyard. And the last three, the newest one is called Comedy Jonestown. The one before that is called Comedy Zar. The one before that is career ending.

He does good work in general. He's very thoughtful. And he really sets his eyes on the current comedy world's connection to a fascist culture, an authoritarian government. and this new one really kind of focuses on the techno bro element of fascism within comedy. And I think it's important work. And I've reached out to that guy, but I don't know who he is. He's anonymous. I know he's Canadian.

I would have liked to have had him on the show. But it doesn't seem that that's in the cards, but the work is there. That's The Elephant Graveyard on YouTube. I would check that out if I were you. It's sort of, he speaks in the same world that I speak in about this stuff, but he's much more thorough and a true free thinker. So I would do that if I were you. As for me, I'm starting out some realizations about the monster we carry with us at all times,

that being the phone. And I don't think there's anything trivial or trite or not necessary to talk. about the impact of the constant pummeling that we put our brains through with information. And I've talked about this many, many times before, but I'm starting, I've sort of been hung up on this idea that our sense of time, or at least mine, kind of has changed since COVID. And outside of PTSD, being that, that was a three-year period where there was a true terror in the minds of most of us about a disease and how to handle it. But there's something else that I started to realize about the nature of time in relation to it feels like it's moving

fast or it's not kind of connected to days anymore, that everything just becomes one long sort of experience that happens at different paces. But as I've been saying lately, that I don't generally feel time flies by, but I do all of a sudden realize I'm 61 years old and I'm going to be 62. And I started to think more about the impact of COVID, but I realize it's the impact of Zoom and it's the impact of our phones and the impact of jamming our brain with information technology of one kind or another, either for distraction or a need for connection or a need for information. And the way time works on your phone is much different than the way time works in life or when you're disconnected from all your devices. It's a completely different time

zone. I think it's many different time zones. But I think our brain processes that in a different way. People talking in videos on TikTok or on Instagram or on YouTube, having done radio in my life and knowing the type of mania one has to kind of get themselves into to drive a show of any kind, to broadcast on microphones, even this one, to sort of move through it without pausing too much, unless you're doing it for dramatic effect, takes a slightly heightened way of engagement. And I would say that's definitely in the mania spectrum, that there is an intensity of tone of the way you, kind of talk, the speed you talk, the intensity of the talk. I do feel it's a heightened type of engagement. And it's not necessarily that spontaneous. It's usually driving at

something. I know I am right now. And I know that my tone right now is different than how I might be when I talk to somebody else or I think. So if you're kind of engaging with the phone all the time with any number of hundreds of reels or bits and pieces of what they call content coming at you, it's going to be at this heightened tone and it's going and your brain's going and your brain's going to receive it like that. So I think that in itself is sort of an exhausting thing and it doesn't happen in real time. But just on a practical level in terms of time getting away from me or maybe you, I don't know if they still have that thing on the phone, which how much screen time you you you spend there but you might not know that it's hours a day and that's hours

a day that is not moving at the pace of life it's moving at the pace that your brain is taking in all this heightened pounding that you're putting it through you know shifting time zones you know every minute every 30 seconds every you know your brain just kind of locks into whatever the tone of whatever is happening and it's completely inhuman and I do think on some level it's eating our time. Is that possible? Does that seem like a logical interpretation? This episode is sponsored by Squarespace. When you run your own website like we do, Squarespace make sure you're all taken care of and not just with the way your site looks and works for visitors. Squarespace also gives you everything you need to offer your services through the site

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code WTF to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. That's Squarespace.com slash WTF offer code WTF. Yeah, I have to make some conscious decisions. I'm going to have time. I'm excited to have the time. But I'm really, I think, I've said this before, but the years ago, Dennis Miller at the beginning of the internet had said something that, that I, I, I know. never forget. There are certain things that stick in your head that he said that the internet

is going to make crack look like Sanka. And that didn't really make sense until now, until the idea of detaching from the phone in a very real way becomes something that I'm going to have to figure out how to do that. Because you do look to it for for news, for distraction, for emotional engagement, for validation, whatever it is. And it's a powerful fucking drug, probably the most powerful one existing today. I will stand by that 100% because everyone is on it. Some people don't know that their life has become unmanageable because of it. Certainly the people that are feeding it every day because that's their job. But the detachment from it, I don't know. It's going to be something I'm thinking about because I think I need to engage in real time again. And my real time is

is not without excitement. As you know, I have an ongoing cat issue with Charlie Bean's Roscoe. And where we're at with that right now, I can tell you, is that after engaging with the vet, he was on the Prozac for two and a half weeks

and it fucked him up. It made him different. And I was waiting to wait it out, but it did not deal, like it totally had an effect on him, but it did not affect his aggression towards the other cat buster. so I kept talking to the vet and telling her this and you know I was willing to wait but it really just wasn't

it was definitely doing something he was a different cat and I didn't love it but it was not doing anything about the aggression and I kept telling her about that and I decided we decided to take him off it and and also you know alongside of that we put Buster on the same drug I'm on so me and Buster are are both on Buspiron and we'll see how that goes for both of us and Charlie is now just readjusting to his insanity but on top of that I'm trying to do something I do not want to have to have to give this cat away because I do love this cat and and Jackson Galaxy who I talked to here has been in touch with me and I mean he thinks he can solve it so the

The approach now is with the vet and with Jackson, and I've engaged another cat behavioralist, is to separate them at different times during the day to switch them out so that they each have time in the bigger part of the house where they can both feel like kings. So that's the project now, is getting Charlie off the Prozac, putting Buster on the Buespirone, and switching them out during the day so they can both feel like they've got ownership. of the house and me I guess and the hilarious thing is Sam the stupid Sam who is probably turning out to be the best cat I have is in the middle of all this and he still minds his own fucking business he operates at his own pace and he's become more connected to me in the midst of all this separating the two alpha idiots uh you know at at different intervals he's kind of locked into me a little more so that's a benefit so this is the life of of real time and it you know

know, I can project and engage and be just as distracted and worked up as I am if I'm on my phone flipping through garbage. And also just sitting on the porch. There's something about real lifetime that I think we've got to get used to again. It's not that compelling sometimes when you're just alone. It doesn't fill the hole per se, but maybe it's okay to live in the hole for a little while. Don't you think? I think so. Hey, with school starting again and schedules filling fast, preparing dinner for the family can feel overwhelming. Home Chef simplifies meal time with over 35 tasty meals and 18 delightful extras each week, including kid-friendly options that kids actually enjoy. Make dinner effortless, nutritious, and family-approved,

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slash WTF. That's homechef.com for 50% off your first box and free dessert for life. Homechef.com slash WTF and you must be an active subscriber to receive free dessert. I want to thank all the people who came out last night to the American Cinematheque screening of McCabe and Mrs. Miller at the Arrow Theater, which I

hosted and did a short intro. As many of you know, I've been obsessed with that movie since I was a teenager because it was really the first movie that made me realize, holy shit, there's a lot going on in these movies, and the naturalism and the lighting and the Leonard Cohen music and the Vilmos Zygman's cinematography and all the great acting. It's a naturalism that you don't see in films anymore and it's a period piece and there's a lot of themes going on there. I think at the core it's probably about a guy just going through the difficulties of starting a small business

and he's up against corporate interests but it is a revisionist Western and there's such an intimacy to it and there's such an interesting take on gender roles and on the myth of the West and individualism and it's I would say that McCabe

is most definitely a tragic comic figure and I'm obsessed with his jacket and his hat for different reasons. I think they imply something. The hat is a bowler hat, which to me in film signifies Charlie Chaplin and the coat is this massive bearskin coat. So he's sort of a clown in bears clothing. A tragic clown. But I can watch that movie any time and the print was just spectacular. Thank you American Cinematech for having me. So look, Jeremy Allen White is an actor. He's very popular right

Now he's kind of hard to read, I think, and you can kind of project on to who he is with the different roles he plays. He's nominated at the Emmys this year for Outstanding Lead Actor in a comedy series for The Bear. The Bruce Springsteen film, Deliver Me from Nowhere, which I am in as well, opens in October, but it makes its world premiere this weekend at Telluride Film Festival, and this is me talking to Jeremy Allen White. How much longer? Like another month and change? Wow. That's something, man.

End of an era. Heavy, super heavy. Yeah, it's sort of a big deal to end things of any kind. Yeah, of course. And I don't. It's been such a long time. I know. I don't think I've quite, like, we've given it enough time to, I'm prepared.

Yeah, yeah. But it's like any other. other relationship. Sure. That, you know, there's a loss to it. But not unlike other relationships, you know, I've, I've had my time. Sure, sure, sure. On some level, I've had enough.

Yeah, yeah. Not in a bad way, but it's like it's a lot. And so much of my time and life goes into doing it. Yeah. And I think talking to people like this is probably the, it's a prime. primary, my primary social life. Sure, sure, sure. It's kind of nice to have a work built-in social life, though.

Sometimes I wish I had something like that, you know? Well, yeah, it's kind of odd because, like, I have conversations with people, you know, and they're usually pretty thorough and connected, and then they just go away. Sure, but I was wondering, I mean, if you walk into a party or something like that, is it just so easy for you to get around because you kind of have had a really great conversation with most people in those kind of rooms, you know? It is. Like, I never, I still, I, I don't think I have a full awareness of my impact in the world

or whether or not people necessarily remember me as I remember it, you know, because a lot of times people are on junkets or they're just doing these things. Sure. I mean, most people know who I am. Yeah. But I don't know, am I any different than any, any other, you know, interview they've done. Sometimes I think that, but maybe for some people, but I don't know, man. I mean, I think most people know the deal.

There are some people that I definitely feel connected with. And it always surprises me. Yeah. Sometimes it's kind of great. Like, you know, I went to a party and, like, I saw Jeff Goldblum there. And I interviewed him years ago. Yeah, yeah. And he was like, oh, my God.

You know, I'm like, yeah, there's some guys like, you know, I'm pretty good friends with Tracy Letts. Yeah, yeah. There's a couple people that I've had on that, you know, I have kind of friendships with Johnny Knoxville's, another guy that's always pretty happy to see me. Where it's like the friendship is born from being in a room like this? Well, kind of, or at least a familiarity of connection. Sure. You know, there are some people that I've done this show with. And I'm not even sure they remember doing it, but that's just me.

You know, but to answer the question, yes. I do feel like I'm part of this thing as whatever I am. Yeah, yeah. You know, but there haven't been a lot of people that I, outside of guys I know, outside, that I've really kind of, you know, remained buds with. Gotcha. But I'm, you know, I'm old. It's hard to make friends.

Sure, sure. It's hard to maintain those things. Yeah. What are you going to do? Like, they're like, you know, have you work with Josh Brolin? No, no, never. Do you know him? I don't, but I just did a thing with Austin Butler,

and I know him and Austin have a really special thing. Oh, yeah. Like, I had Austin on, but I don't get the sense that, you know, we're pals. Yeah? I bet he'd be happy to see you, though. Sure, he's a nice guy, but, you know, he's one of those guys where, you know, sometimes there's so much happening for a guy. Yeah.

And they're so in the zone of, like, you know, showing up for these things. Yeah. Where you don't exactly know if, if, it's just a, it's just a, It's a tricky thing, you know, how I perceive people, you know, connect with me. Sure. Yeah, I'm sure you'd be happy to see me. Yeah. But I'd be like, do you remember?

Yeah. I did that to Jack White once, and it was almost like I interviewed Jack White years ago. Yeah, yeah. In Nashville. And then years later, I saw him at the airport. And I didn't even know if I could, you know, go up to it. Sure, sure. And I was like, hey, man, you know, Mark, you remember.

He's like, fuck, of course. You know, I don't know what the fuck I'm thinking. I came over to his goddamn house. Of course. But people remember these things. sometimes they do but but the point with josh was though like i rarely you know like i rarely you know kind of follow up i don't feel it's my place in terms of boundaries and the job to you know i'll give you a call sometime or something like that some people like yeah uh but like

josh and i had a long conversation about zins you know i got fucking two zins in my mouth right now and he's like a zin junkie yeah yeah and i got this place where i can get the flavored ones here which are illegal. So I was like, I'll tell you what it is, and he gave me a phone number, and I'll text you the place. And I don't even know if it was a real phone. Right, right, right, right, right.

I never heard back from him, and I'm realizing, like, this has got to probably be his third phone, maybe his assistant's phone. Sure, sure, sure. But he's such a charming fucker. Yeah, he's charismatic, man. Yeah, because, you know, he walks in

and you feel like your best friends are ready, and I buy it. Of course. Yeah, but nothing. No, like, I got the shit, nothing. I bet he'd be happy to see you, too. Yeah, well, I think he's got a zone that, or a vibe that he works with where he always feel he's got that charisma that's very honed. Yes.

So he's one of those guys where he's going to make you feel special, even if it's for a minute or two. Yeah, yeah. And you walk away like, yeah, he's like kind of my bud. Those guys are special, man. Those guys that can make you feel like the sun's kind of shining on you, you know? Coney's same way. Yeah, yeah. Cooney, like, was surprising.

He actually is a very decent fella. Yeah, yeah. You know that guy? Oh, no, never met him, no. Yeah, because I went to, like I interviewed him. It was over Zoom during COVID, and he was, you know, he knew me and what I'd gone through with losing my partner and stuff. That's right. But he, you know, he was very generous during the interview.

But then I saw him like, I don't know how long ago, how much later it was, but it was like a press screening of that movie he directed. Yeah. That tender bar movie. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Now, I was just there with the press, you know, kind of I was going to interview maybe Ben. And I don't remember who it was supposed to, but I was there. You know, it was just a daytime screening for press guys.

And, but he walked in, you know, and I was heading to the bathroom. He just made a beeline to me. Like, you know, like, out of everybody, he's like, you all right, you know. That's sweet guy. I actually feel good, yeah. Yeah, yeah, I'm a pretty sensitive fella. Yeah, yeah, yeah, me too. I know.

It seems like it. Yeah. I mean, we did that one scene in the movie. Oh, my God. I was in rough shape, I feel like that at that time. Well, I kind of sensed all that. It's a very weird thing to have such a, like, I had a small supporting role, but I knew you guys were locked in, and at that point, I don't even know where you were at, but you were... I feel like we were about to break for kind of a holiday break, is that right?

It was like December, right. Yeah, yeah, that sounds right, yeah. So, yeah, I feel like we had been going for two months pretty steady. Yeah. And I feel like I had gotten some kind of, like, bronch, something was going on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we were just in it, too, exactly, that thing. of just like once you, you're into it a couple weeks, a month, two months, you're just, you know,

I know, it's taking me a while, you know, because of being on sets to just realize, like, and that's the other thing, too, about being on sets when you ask me about friendships and, you know, from work, you know, for years, I always saw it, like, guys you do movies together. They got to stay in touch, and it's like, yeah, no, they don't do. No, not always. It's really rare. It's really rare. Really rare. Like, I remember the first kind of the job idea.

I did this movie when I was 16 called After School. And so I was still in high school at the time. Yeah. And we shot it during the summer. Yeah. And it was a really young crew, young director of these guys at NYU. They were all like 23 and I was 16. And I thought I found all my best friends.

Yeah, you know what I mean? Like, I was like, this is it. We're going to do this forever. Yeah. And that was my first experience with that thing of like, it's sort of like just summer camp. You know what I mean? And then everybody goes off and they continue on. But you think in that moment, oh, this is it.

I figured it out, you know? And I think. that's part of the joy of doing it if there isn't yeah yeah for sure you know but like that was your first movie that was yeah no not my first movie but it was that was the one where I went oh oh yeah you know this is but it's a funny thing because when you have that feeling and then when you're done it's even you you're sort of like I don't need to call that guy I don't think totally totally totally totally yeah yeah well you're waiting for the phone to ring and then when the phone doesn't ring, then you're like, yeah, whatever, I didn't mean, you know.

Well, was it like, you know, because you guys, you know, Strong works a certain way. Yeah. And, you know, I interviewed him. And like, I, like, I don't know if it's because of just who I am and sort of a zero fuck attitude. Like, I kind of like busting his balls a little bit. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I remember a little bit of that. I remember a little bit of that. Yeah, yeah. About his process. Yeah, yeah. It's just so funny because he's willing to talk to you as Jeremy, but he's going to do it as Landau. Yeah.

Oh, really. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, that man is, he cares so much. That's what it is. Yeah, that's what it is. Because it's not, he kind of gets this method thing, but I don't, I don't think it's method. I just think he's just immersive in order for him to do what he does. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think a lot of these guys, you know, I don't think it's method either.

Yeah. And I know some of these guys like Jeremy, they just have to, they have to go all the way. And in my opinion, these are all great actors, regardless, you know what I mean? I mean, I think Jeremy's showing up and reading off the piece of paper he's seen for the first time is going to be compelling. I think he's got the gravity and he's got the thing. But I think with some of these guys, they just feel like for themselves, maybe it's an insecurity, maybe it's this, maybe they don't feel like they deserve to be there. Whatever it is, they need to go ahead and push it all the way and do all the stuff to make it feel like they're deserving of that spot. Yeah.

But in my opinion, all these guys are brilliant regardless. And also, yeah, totally. And on some level, just as someone who's doing it a little more than you used to, like, how do you make it interesting? Yeah. I mean, you know, and if you're compelled to do that, because it's a lot of waiting around. Yeah. And, you know, and to make that time on camera feel like it's worth it. Yeah.

I mean, I guess you're going to do what you got to do. Yeah, it's a big, like, you got to start to figure out how you conserve that energy. Yeah. And, but be satisfied creatively. Yeah. Now, how long before you shot was he, you know, talking to you as John Landau? Um, I think, let's see. Jeremy and I, we hadn't met.

We'd emailed a little bit. I think we share an agent, Max, and so we've been in touch, and I was a fan of his, and he reciprocated. Yeah. And, but I think the first time we spent time together, yeah, he was already in it. Yeah. But was he, like, was he texting you as John Landau? A little bit, I think, a little bit, you know? Um, but it was, but it was great because, you know, I mean, look, I love Jeremy. Um, I've continued to talk to him a lot after we finish this. We talked a lot during it. Yeah. And at first, you know, he was messaging me and, you know, Landau and Bruce's relationship, Landau was such a supporter. Sure. You know what I mean? Oh yeah. And I was like, getting these texts from Jeremy. And I was like, man, this guy's like, so supportive and like loving and, you know, caring. And at the moment, I was like, oh, maybe he's just, you know, maybe he's just doing.

in like a thing where he's in character but then I discovered that's he's that guy too you know what I mean he's just like a really supportive he loves actors are we doing the scene now right there was something where I was like

maybe this is the thing but as we got to know each other better and spend more time together I just realized you know he loves actors and that's not always the case man there's some actors that are like there's a real competition in there and strong just

he loves actors and I love those how does that manifest so like a competitive actor like he's going to try to steal the scene kind of thing i mean maybe maybe something like that or like i don't know like i i started acting at such a young age how old we i was like 14 15 really there was always like a couple guys in front of me or the couple guys that always got every yeah yeah you know what i mean and as a kid i was i was angry you know i was like you know why they get this i could do that i could do this better than that i could do you know yeah all this stuff and uh and that eats you up and i think with with some people

that can carry on, you know, and I mean. Well, that sounds like it becomes a bitterness thing. Totally. So where'd you grow up? I grew up in Brooklyn, New York. Really? You were just a New York kid? Yeah, yeah.

I grew up, like, around Park Slope until I was eight. We lived in Baltimore for a couple years, originally, like three years. For what? We had some family there, my dad's brother, and I think my parents and my little sister at that point, my younger sister, my parents wanted us to have, like, a bit of a yard. and maybe like a suburban kind of thing because my dad had a brother there he was like maybe this is the spot

but nobody liked it my parents didn't like it I didn't really like it I think my sister liked it because she was so young yeah yeah yeah you know but um but we came back when I was like 11 and what was the family business so my dad had a had a business for a long time filming depositions pretty much he started his own business yeah

he had a couple guys working for him He did that for a while And my mom was a Special Education teacher In kindergarten And so they were always pretty supportive Were they Well yeah they actually

They met They were actors So my mom grew in North Carolina Yeah my mom grew up in North Carolina Went to North Carolina School of the Arts Which was a great Arts college And studied acting there

But she moved to New York With the big dreams Late 70s early 80s With the big dreams And my pops too He grew up outside of Philly, and he moved there to pursue acting as well. So they're both living in the city kind of stuff? They were living in the city, yeah.

I think they moved there late 70s, early 80s. And we're doing theater. We're doing their thing, you know? And as the story goes, sometimes I'm like, I've got to talk to my dad about the story because I've taken it for myself, and it might be a little different, but I like this story, which is my dad saw my mom, to play, fell in love with her, ran out at intermission, got her flowers, asked her out afterwards, and that's how they started seeing each other. And that's how you were delivered

the story? That's, I believe, how the story went. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Or now I've taken it, and that's, that's, that's, that's the story, you know. You think there might be a little space in there. Maybe, but, you know, that's very concise and clear for me. And, um, and that's how they met. And then, you know, they did it for a long time. Like off Broadway? Yeah, off Broadway stuff, um, and apparently my mom was very, very, very good. Yeah. Um, and my dad'll say it himself, he, he wasn't, you know, he wasn't as great. He kind of like over-intellectualized things a little bit. Yeah. Um, familiar with that. Yeah. But my mom, my mom, I think, had the real, the real thing, the real instinct for it. Um, but, you know, it didn't take off

for him because it's a hard thing. It's a hard, stupid life. Yeah, it is. And, and, uh, and, and, uh, it is. And they wanted to have a family. Yeah. And they were living on the Upper West Side at the time. Yeah. And then my dad kind of figured out this business. They moved to Brooklyn and they had me. Oh, okay.

Yeah. So he probably thinks on some level it's still creative. I'm shooting stuff. Yeah, for sure. For sure. And, you know, they were support, you know, I grew up in a household that was very supportive of the arts. There's a passion there.

Yeah. You know what I mean? Did any of them, did your mom do, like, community stuff after or nothing? Just like stopped acting. And that was it. But she's retired now from teaching. Yeah. And I think she did a short film actually that was like somehow connected with my middle school drama teacher.

Like he got her something in a short of an old student of his. Yeah. I think, you know. I wonder if she liked that. I'd like to mess around and do some stuff now. So when you wanted to do it, how old were you? I guess seventh grade was the first time I remember. yeah doing that kind of thing performing and what was that was it like a musical or

something that was this teacher this teacher John McInney and he taught at a he taught at a school in in Brooklyn MS 51 and and I joined the class and yeah it was just a improv sort of exercise and in a black box you know and I just remember the feeling of you know being able to focus which was very hard for me as a young person and it still is. Feeling present really for kind of the first time. Especially with improv because you're

yeah, you've got to be in it. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I, of course, remember the attention, you know? There was like, I felt the eyes on me. Yeah. And I felt that people were waiting and, like, connected and wanted to see what was going to happen next. Yeah. And I was like, oh, this is pretty cool.

That's a rush. Yeah, exactly. I still, like, that space always is kind of fucking. insane yeah it horrifies me now i couldn't i you know yeah i mean i was on stage just the other night yeah and uh martin lawrence had come in and he did a set wow yeah and he brought me up and it was just this moment where you know i was kind of feeling i'm just trying to feel stuff out now because i just did a special so i'm at square one sure so i'm fucking off of it yeah yeah yeah and i said a few things and then there was just that silence and i had that and i've done this before i have

that moment where i just say out loud i'm like you're all just waiting for me to yeah yeah yeah and And then I just said, let's just sit in this for a minute. There you go. But it was terrible. Why? How do they react when you do that? How are they going to react? They're the comedy audience and they're like, what is happening?

Is it funny, though? Do they laugh? Is it uncomfortable? Is there something in that space that feels interesting, you know? Well, it's interesting because it is uncomfortable. Yeah. Like, I know I'll get out of it. Sure.

Most likely. But just to stop everything, just have that weird moment. Like when you're on stage and you're kind of, you acknowledge you, but you know you're moving towards something. Yes. Like, I literally. stopped it without a plan. Sure.

Just to see how that felt for a minute. And there was some uncomfortable laughter, but, you know, eventually I picked it up, but I just wanted to check in with that space because it is a, it's kind of a terrifying space. Yeah, yeah. And you kind of just have to, you know, do it. Like getting in the cold plunge or whatever. Remind yourself that, you know, that, it's that being present thing. Yes, yeah.

There's nothing more present than failing in front of people. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Terrible. Yeah. So you do the improv. So this guy, the teacher, is he the guy that planted the seed? I mean, do you...

For sure. He was a very serious, serious guy. Yeah. But he was teaching, you know, 11, 12, 13-year-olds. Yeah. But he made us feel... Like it was important? Like it was important, you know?

And I think for a lot of kids, they haven't found what's important to them yet. Nor should they at that age necessarily. You know what I mean? 13, 14. And, but it was so important to him. and I thought that was cool and I remember he had us do in seventh grade we did

we did Macbeth and 12th night back to back so we each played two parts and it was insane to have 12, 13 year olds do two Shakespeare plays back to back but that was the kind of guy that he was and he took it so seriously I mean he lived very close

to the middle school and it was just that was his, that was his life. And, you know, he could tell. He wasn't sleeping and he was making edits on Shakespeare. And, you know, all this, all this stuff. He just, he took it very seriously. And he sent me out on, like, whatever, backstage, you know,

find open, open casting calls. So you were the guy? Were you the golden boy at that time? I mean, you know, he sent out a couple of us. Yeah. I remember there was this kid, Phil, who played Macbeth. I played Macduff. But I also played Malvolio.

So I had like a lot going on between the two. But I remember he played Macbeth. And I was like, shit, I'm not, you know, I'm not the guy. Maybe I'm not the guy. But, um, but Mr. McInney, uh, yeah, I think he was like, you know, this is something. I'm not McBeth. Exactly. What's the point?

Exactly. Exactly. But I think he saw something going on. And, uh, he sent me out on like a, you know, off, off, off Broadway kind of audition. Yeah. And I ended up getting it and doing that in the city. And then... What was that part?

It was like original. It was called The Present. Yeah. It wasn't excellent, but it was, you know, it was like a black box. Like, where was it? Do you remember where the theater was on? It was on the Upper West Side. I don't remember exactly.

But it was small, small theater. Like, I don't know. 80 cap. Yeah, was there people coming? Yeah, there were people coming. But it was that same thing. It was enough to get me... It was that thing again.

It was like, oh, wow. These people are paying attention. But also going into the city. For sure. Did you go in the city pretty regular anyways? Maybe not at that age. So much we'd go in on occasion, like special occasions. And then when I was getting into, yeah, like, I went to high school in the city.

Oh, you did? Let me ask you, though, before we spaced it out, did he make you understand Shakespeare? Do you know, because like that language, and I'm hung up on Shakespeare in general because I'm one of those guys who are like I can't get my head around it Like no right because You're always going to be trying To piece that stuff together

You know I don't know if there's ever Fully understanding That's all that's like a life's work you know But yeah there would be certain things Like we'd work a monologue over and over again And he'd break that down But then the rest was all instinct But what he did give us I think was like

Trust in our own instinct Nothing was wrong necessarily and I think that's a nice way to approach Shakespeare, you know? And it also gave us you know, or gave me an idea of real like value and self-worth and like I was like, oh, my opinion

on this stands for something, you know? Yeah. It's amazing when you have one teacher that kind of does it. Totally. Yeah, because they save lives. Yeah, absolutely. They make lives.

Absolutely. Yeah, I just wasn't good in it. I mean, you know, and I was young, but I was just like, oh, this is, you know. This is good? Maybe I'm good at this. Maybe I could pursue it. He made me feel like that was possible. What's your relationship with Shakespeare now?

Oh, man. I'd be scared to do it now, but I'd love to. Yeah. I'd love to. Yeah. Yeah. So you succeed enough to want to go to school for it? Yeah, I went to a performing arts high school. To the one? No, no. It was great. So another hit I took. I didn't play Macbeth. Yeah. And then this kind of middle school program was so good that about half of of the class from 51 would get into LaGuardia, which is like the game school, you know what I mean. And I did my monologues, and I knew they were very good.

I just did. And about half the class got in, and a couple of the kids that got in there are still very good friends in mine. And I didn't get in. And I got into all the other ones that got into the school called Frank Sinatra, a professional performing arts school. There might have been one other. Yeah.

And I went to two and more. year. I went Frank Sinatra. I dropped out middle of the year. Why? Went to PPS. I just didn't like it. But I, but then I realized that was just a problem with school, you know, I think, you know, I just didn't like school. Yeah. Um, but I went to PPAS and then I auditioned for LaGuardia again. And then I got in and I could have went there sophomore year, but I felt like I was like sticking it to them. Yeah. By, uh, staying at PPAS. You know? Good. Yeah. Sure is a good attitude. So I, uh, so I stayed there. And that was a school on

on 48th between 8th and 9th and hell's kitchen and it was a lot of kids that were already working it was a lot of like theater kids and stuff like that and so what do you

what are you just doing all of it song and dance man yeah all of it I mean not there was like a musical theater department this was like

the straight drama program I was in but yeah we would have movement we'd have vocal yeah we'd have sort of like script breakdown we'd have acting technique

you didn't do any musicals I didn't do any musicals no no I was that that was scary to me. Why? Singing? Or dancing? Singing? Singing. Singing I had no problem with. I like dancing. Yeah. But the singing was scary to me. Did you get an opportunity to do any dance? I started in dance. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I did ballet, tap, and jazz for a long time before I ever found acting with John McInney. So when you were a kid? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You were tapping it out? Totally. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, that's interesting because you're kind of, like, kind of a tough guy now.

I portray it tough guy, maybe, sometimes, yeah. But you were like the dancing kid? Yeah, I mean, I don't think that was how I was known, but yeah, I liked it, you know. I had a lot of energy as a kid, and like I said, it was very hard for me to focus. Yeah. And my parents put me in all, I did sports too, my parents put me, I was wrestling, and I was playing soccer, I was playing baseball, and doing all the stuff. But it just was, they were just like, we got to run this kid out, I think. Oh, right, right. And so they added dance to the mix. Yeah. And I think dance, again, it was that.

But was it fun? It was fun And it was that again It was eyes on you Yeah And it was also like You know I was the only boy

You know And I was kind of great As a young man With a bunch of You know With a bunch of girls And And yeah

I liked it I liked it a lot Do you still dance? For a while Yeah sure I mean I'd go out and dance for a while Yeah yeah It's been a long time now

Rockwell Can't stop dancing Great dancer Great dancer Great actor I love that guy so much, man. He's a good guy, yeah. I think he's my friend.

Yeah? Yeah, yeah. I'm cool, jealous. We'll text occasionally. Well, we did an animated movie. We're in the bad guys together. My daughters love that movie. They do?

Oh, good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, Sam, he's a good guy. Yeah, yeah, but he loves the dance. Yeah, man, he's a good dance. I mean, I remember seeing him in the Fossey movie. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, Fossi, but even way back, like, what was it?

It was like Charlie's Angels or something. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. He does, there's this like montage kind of like, it's like violence and then him dancing around. And it's, I thought it was so, so cool. Yeah. Yeah. So when, uh, when the first role start coming, you, I guess because he started so young, you're, you're able to kind of develop a comfort on set and stuff to where, you know, by the time you get the bigger opportunities, you're kind of seasoned already. Yeah.

I mean, I think some of the best performances I ever see are kids because they just they don't have that self-conscious thing. I just watched close encounters of third kind the other night

because they got a new 70-millimeter print. Yeah. And that kid, it's like, well, how the fuck did they get that? They just don't, it's,

they don't have any other choice but to be honest, you know what I mean? It's like they haven't gotten all messy in their head yet. Yeah. And then I think,

you know, some of them are able to protect that. for a long time. Yeah. Do you ever see this movie close? I don't know. I don't think so.

It's, uh, I'm gonna mess it. It's like French or Danish or, um, but it's just about these, these young boys. They're 12 or 13. They have a really, uh, uh, close relationship, very like loving their best friends, but they get older and there's some like homophobia going on at school. And then they're like, oh, maybe, maybe we shouldn't be this close and they start questioning how you know how much they love each other you know and these kids this movie came out like two or three years ago

some of the best it's the best it's really the best yeah and I see those performances and I go just protect that you know or the film with um two years ago it won a bunch of awards the father falls oh the anatomy of the fall the anatomy of the yeah yeah that kid was like brilliant and I'll just like protect that thing So anyway, I think I was lucky in the start Because I was like, whatever, this is fun Yeah, yeah

And that's the way to approach this thing But the older you get It becomes, oh, maybe I'm doing this now Or this is how I make a living Or this is how people are paying attention And it's hard to maintain that thing of just, you know Well, that's interesting So you're saying like a kid can't help but be honest

And if he knows the task at hand Because a lot of kids, you know, they get self-conscious still And they act like they think they should act Sure So the ones that... It's not the case. All, sure. Right.

So the ones that can get past that are really kind of gifted people. I mean, Brolin was a kid actor. There's a lot of kid actors. You have kids, right? Yeah, yeah, too. Yeah. Daughters? Two daughters, six and four.

Now, are they actors? I mean, I don't know. But no, no, we're not like putting them into a class or trying to get them in front of a camera or anything like that. But you can still see that honesty, I guess. For sure. Yeah. I mean, kids have that, you know, all the time.

I mean, you know, they'll look right through you. Yeah. Sometimes surprise you. Yeah. Just in the way they carry you. themselves and then they bring that you know yeah yeah to you know yeah i don't have any i have no kids so i don't know yeah yeah i find it very touching though for some reason well have you ever been kind of like torn down by a kid you know what i mean like they can kind of see that thing

yeah yeah you're don't like about you a little bit or something sure sure and that's from i'm like sort like i think we're we're done sure sure sure yeah okay you're my friend's kid i'm to put up with this yeah totally you walk away yeah yeah yeah keep that to yourself kid yeah yeah yeah yeah Um, but yeah, so I was, yes, I was young. Um, it was fun. Yeah. And it felt, yeah, it felt like easy in a nice way. Yeah, and it felt fun. How old were you when you had kids? I mean, you're a kid, you're, I mean, yeah, pretty young, I think in this day and age, or at least in like cities like LA and New York. Did you meet your wife, your ex-wife, through acting? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I met her at this school.

I met her when I was 14 at PPAS. It's crazy. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And you locked in at 14? We weren't together when we met, but we were, I mean, I was infatuated. Yeah, when I met her, when I was 14. You never went away. Not really.

No, no. Yeah, it carried. And, like, we, you know, we had a couple false starts and we kind of followed each other around. She transferred to a different school. I was heartbroken. We ended up doing a movie together by chance The year after that After school, which is the first movie

Where everyone was going to be buddies, yeah. And then we happened to move to LA Kind of at the same time So we were kind of just like Following each other around And the infatuation was mutual? I think most of the time It was coming from me

But yeah, yeah, of course Because when I think back at the girls I was infatuated in high school I just never had a shot And I think there were periods where I didn't have a shot, absolutely. But yeah, but yeah, we gave it a real go around when we were like 24 or 25. And then, yeah, we had Ezzie when we were 27.

In New York? In L.A. In L.A. Yeah. So you've lived here the whole time? Yeah, I got a job out of high school. I got this show, Shamed. Oh, yeah, that was big.

For a very long time. Yeah. With Macy and that crew. Exactly. And that was great, right? It was great, man. I mean, that was my, that was my schooling, you know, because we did that for, I was 18 when we did the pilot, and I was 30 when we finished. That's crazy.

It's crazy, yeah. Never, and it was always exciting? No, I mean, I think that's a long time to do a show. Yeah, it becomes a job, right? Yeah, for sure. And there was hard years in there just for me, where I was like, I was like, you know, very grateful, obviously. I mean, it carried me for so long. It made me feel very secure

I always had some place to be I loved all the people involved But yeah there were certain years certainly Where it was difficult for me to find the stuff Yeah yeah yeah Or the inspiration Yeah yeah yeah and Macy's kind of a hardcore actor Yeah absolutely

Did you like do you pick up stuff from him? Yeah I mean he's he's a serious guy too And I think that's what it was I mean I think that that cast was very young Right and um And, but we all cared a lot and we wanted to show up. Yeah. But I think at times, you know, we could spin out of control.

You're talking about ages 10 to 24 kind of when we started. And you were 18 through. And I was 18 and Cameron was 16. And Emma and Ethan were 10, 11. So you're living in L.A. 18, on a show. You hit 20s. Yeah.

You can, you know, party. Yep, yep, yep. And I think it was that thing, too. I was having a little bit of frustration with, uh, You know, it's the dream now to have a job in L.A. Now that I have two daughters and, you know, I have a job that's consistent. But at the time, my peers and stuff, they were shooting in South Africa. They were shooting in the U.K., and they were shooting in Canada and South America.

And I was like, well, I want to travel the world. Like, what's going on? I'm shooting at Warner Brothers. Oh, yeah. But now it's like it's a fucking gift. Yeah, totally. At that time, I was so frustrated by it. And now, yeah, if I could just see my girls all the time and not have to bounce around everywhere.

Where do you shoot the band? Chicago so that's something that but Chicago's cool Chicago's great I mean I love the city of Chicago you know but but it's far you know I get on a I get on a plane every weekend it's just yeah yeah it's just you just get tired yeah yeah yeah it's fucking nuts yeah but that so that show came directly right on on the heels of shameless yeah yeah I got a I did this movie called the rental that Dave Franco uh Oh, I think I saw that. Yeah. Yeah. It was made or it came out during 2020. Right. Right. And it was kind of one of the only movies that was like being released during that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, right. Because you of course, uh, you and um, and Allison. We're on glow. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yes. I did that movie and Chris Storer who created the bear was a producer on it. And I didn't talk to Chris very much. He was kind of in and out while we were shooting it. We were shooting in Oregon. Yeah. And Chris Stor, uh, you know, he comes up to me. He goes, hey, buddy and I'm like oh hey man yeah and uh he says what do you think you're going to be doing in like

three years and I was like I don't I don't know like you know I think uh I got a couple more years a shameless probably and and then we'll see and he goes all right I'm gonna call you in three years and I was like okay guy you know it's like so holly well I'm never going to hear from that guy again yeah and we're wrapping up season 11 of the show yeah and uh I get a text you know Chris store, I'd like to talk to you about this thing. And, um... Three years later? Yeah, yeah, just about.

And, uh, I talked to him about it. And it was, you know, shameless to a place in Chicago. Bear takes place in Chicago. There's a certain amount of dysfunction going on in both. Yeah. And I think I was kind of like, I've been doing shameless for 12 years and I was like, I got to get out of Chicago or I got to do this or do that. And I was hesitant, even though I love Chris and the script was so good.

Um, I was hesitant. But then I had this moment, I think, of just going, like, this script is so good, like, who am I to, regardless of the environment of it, regardless of, I was like, get out of your own way and just, if it's good, it's good, and follow this. And so, well, yeah, and I guess the parts, as far as dysfunction goes, and carrying the weight of, you know, that particular disposition. Yeah. You know, as a guy who, you know, I'm a cranky fuck. Sure. and you know I'm a sober fuck but you know the the weight of it I mean did your life get out of control I guess it did a little yeah at times for sure absolutely several times yeah yeah how like

what was the strain on the dynamic in your family heading into like the bear I think I was such an anxious I mean I'm still an anxious person yeah you know and I think when shameless ended I was like very difficult person to be around. Yeah. Because I was scared, you know. I'd had 11 years of stability. I had a family outside of my now new family, you know. And I was walking into the unknown for the first time in a very long time.

Yeah. I remember doing my last ADR session at Warner Brothers for Shameless. And I live not far from the studio. And I was driving, leaving Warner Brothers, driving on Mulholland. Yeah. And I started having a panic attack. And I had to pull over on the side of the road because my arms, yeah, my arms went all kind of numb and tingly. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And my neck started feeling very tight and chest. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's every morning. Yeah, right, yeah. So you're familiar. And I really am, dude. And I had to pull over and, look, I'm not saying, like, you know. my wife has a lot of, ex-wife has a lot of space for that kind of thing, but I'm just saying

I was a very, uh, I think I was very difficult to, to be around. Because you get, you get into your own loop and, you know, everything's fucked. Totally. And, and, and, and, and, catastrophic thinking. I have that too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Did you, did you fix it? I mean, every day, I'm, I'm, I have my tools and I've got the things that I try to do to, to, to, to, to, help it. But no, I don't know if it's ever going to be, uh, what the fuck is that, dude? Like, I'm like I just like I started like I'm fucking 61 yeah and you know it just became too much yeah with the world in general but just the idea of having that that fundamental dread yeah like someone recently because I talk about it a lot and I'm I finally started taking a medicine

but I won't take like an SSRI take this other stuff sure this uh busporin yeah which is specifically for this type of anxiety into it yeah yeah and But the doc said to me, it's so funny because I do a bit on the new special. He's like, it usually doesn't work. And I'm like, that sounds perfect. But like I just up the dose and now I'm clammy. But it's exhausting, man. Yeah.

But I know that I must have had it my life. Yeah. And I know that, like, I just had, what is it, 26 years sober. Congratulations. But, like, I can't even imagine, like, that had to been why I was fucking doing that. Right. You know what I mean? Like, because, like, I'm not like a party guy.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm just doing it to get level. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I can relate. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And, but it still happens, and it's just this immediate thing. And I noticed it last night, like, I do it in an instant. Like, me and my buddy are walking across the street, walking across Fairfax to go to a restaurant. Yeah.

That I made reservations at, and there's people out front. And my first thought is like, oh, fuck. They're going to give our table or it's like something. Yeah. And I'm two minutes away. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I got to put myself through the whole... Oh, we're fucked.

Yeah, yeah. I'm a nightmare to, like, travel with, you know, like getting on a plane, especially with my girls or, you know, it's just like days ahead. Totally. I'm panicked about, we're going to be late. Someone's going to mess something up. Something's going to go wrong. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's terrible.

Yeah, but then, but once you're on the plane, you're like, all right. No, it's okay. And meanwhile, everyone's crying. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And you're like, what's the matter? Everything's good. It's fine. You put us through?

No, it's all, I'm still here. We're still here. It all has been okay. And there's no reason to believe that it shouldn't continue to be okay. I know, but if we didn't do that, then who would we be? For sure. Yeah. So when does the drinking fuck you?

I mean, let's see. I mean, I think always it was to a degree, you know? Do you find in retrospect that it was more self-medicating than, oh, let's have a good time? Yeah, I wasn't like a, I mean, not to say I didn't have good time. while I was drinking and stuff. Yeah. But in the end, no, it was very, you know, I was self-medicating, it was lonely, it was, you know. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Were you like, you know, after you'd shoot, you just go fucking sit? Yeah, sometimes, for sure, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And isolate, you know. It's the worst, because, like, when you do that, which is my nature as well, and I guess you're the same, like, you know, I've got a couple of friends. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. but like ultimately you're just sort of like and I do it sober where I'm just sort of like I don't want to talk to you know I'm just going to hang out here for sure and that just makes it where and there's also shame involved like I think the last couple like runs I had like I knew I shouldn't have been doing it I knew I was lying I knew there was like there was shame and so it was already like it was just trouble man but isn't the fucked up thing is like and I don't know I'm just talking now to you as a guy because like I'm having these type of realizations where like if you look at the arc of my mind, there's something about the shame and the self-judgment that I think is the goal.

Like that... You've got to look at it. Yeah. Right. Like, you know, like, fine, drinking. That's the problem. Sure. But the consistent thing with all the behavior is like, I'm a fucking idiot.

Yeah. And I feel guilty or whatever. Yeah. Well, that's an interesting thing, too. I think, like, you've got to be careful with that, though, too, because then you're, you get into narcissism. Yeah. Or victim.

Yeah. You're like, well, I'm guilty. of everything. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're not guilty of everything. You're guilty for what you're guilty of. Right. But like, you know, I think there's periods of shame and guilt that I've been in where I'm

like, how could I have done this? Yeah. To the world. Right, right, right. And it's like, oh, what an egomaniac you have to be to think, you know, you've done this. Right. Well, that's a... Everybody, you know?

Well, that's that old program saying it's like, you're the piece of shit at the center of the universe. Right, exactly, exactly. There's another one I like from the, from the rooms where it's a, some guy said once, God doesn't wake up and think he's you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I love that one. You heard that one? Yeah, yeah, it's like a great one.

Yeah. So what did it take for you to finally get over it, get past it? I think, you know, I'm hesitant talking about this because a lot of it is to do with my ex and it's not my like place to tell that story of it. But it was just watching, I was just really close to losing everything, you know, like, But I was not going to see my kids as much as I wanted to. Who knows if I would be able to show up for work or my parents or my friends. I was risking it.

Did somebody reach out to you and make it appealing? Or was it sort of like, you've got to do this or you're out? I think I did that. I mean, I think I knew. I think I knew. I mean, what it came down to was at the core of it, you know, it was my kids and showing up for them you know i think like or that's what got me in the door yeah you know right and then of course sure it became a bunch of other things but i think

that that fear was enough to yeah to get me to show up and and you're using the tools and it's fucking working yeah yeah yeah yeah it's fucking good right two years in may it's great yeah it's fucking great yeah like did that like the one thing i like about the recovery racket and i talk openly you don't have to but it's just sort of like this idea that that they say the obsession will be lifted yeah yeah and it is yeah it's fucking crazy yeah it's amazing it's like like you know you can be around the shit and it's just like not even like I'm not you know I'm not even thinking that that's a solution yeah what a fucking gift yeah and I also did it you know I did about a year without the rooms right uh when my ex was pregnant with our first because I was just like let me

this is no good yeah you're just going to white knuckle it yeah yeah Yeah, but the obsession remains that way. You know what I mean? I wasn't drinking, but I was sure as hell thinking about drinking all the time or wondering about it or wondering if I could get away with it at this point or what if I'm on a plane or what if I'm away? And I wouldn't do it, but it was time consuming for sure. The obsession was there.

Yeah, but it's better than just the regular dread. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. It's something specific to dread. Yeah, I'm not a, well, back before I fully got sober and, you know, when I was married, And the first time it was like, you know, I'd have to go on the road. Yeah. And that would be where it would happen. So like, it just be like, yeah, you have a month.

You know, that's how you know you have a problem. It's like if you have a trip a month away and all you think, oh, man. Totally. Totally. Yeah. That's going to be great. And then that was scary too because I think that was a similar way I was looking at work sometimes.

Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll be away. Yeah, secret land. And it's my secret time. And I'll still be able to show up. I'll be able to do my job. Sure.

But I'll also have my nights And I can do what I need to do Yeah, yeah And that was, you know And that's just the secrets, man, yeah Yeah, yeah, well I mean, good for you Thank you That's fucking a miracle

Thanks, man It's the fucking best Sorry, let's talk about wrestling Yeah, yeah, okay That movie's great Oh, thanks man And you're great in it Thank you

Like that's like a watch it couple of times If you can take it movie Sean Durkin man, yeah Holy fuck Yeah, yeah Now like I have to assume And that was what? You were already a season or two

Into the Bear? I think that was between our first and second seasons, yeah. Now, when you see like a role like that, you know, I, because, you know, that story, it's even worse.

It's even worse than the one portrayed, exactly. And it's fucking nuts. Yeah. Now, when you take something like that on, because that, like, outside of the work you've done with fucked up guys in the past,

there was such a, and I think you see it in the bear a bit, and I don't no shameless, but you have a full backstory of the reasons why that character is who he is and why that family is who he is. So I imagine when you read a script like that, you're like, holy fuck, you know, half this work is done for me in terms of who this guy is.

Like, you know, you don't have to like put a backstory into place because you're living in it. Sure, sure. And what was, when you read it, what was your first kind of thought? I think the tragedy of it was overwhelming, you know. It was almost unbelievable. Yeah. But I had known Sean for a long time.

The director? Yeah. So Sean produced that same movie after school that I did when I was 16. So I knew Sean since I was 16. That's fucking crazy, dude. And so I wanted it, you know, I was just excited because I love Sean. And then it was like a bit of like, oh boy, because I knew that, you know, not just the

whatever the physical stuff but yeah but I just knew everybody was going to be living in a kind of uncomfortable yeah like place and energy for a long time and that's always like you take a big breath and yeah and you go

and that's before sober time too that is yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah so I mean I was in bad shape I was ready yeah I was ready to go there and uh but I was I was excited You know, I was excited, because it was Sean. I was excited. To get ripped?

Were you excited to get rid? I was excited to, because everybody, I don't care, you know, I think every actor wants to have an opportunity to do a physical, whatever it is. It doesn't have to be getting super strong. It has to be sort of like, you're going to get me in shape? Yeah, exactly. Okay, great. And the studio is going to pay for it? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I'll take it. Yeah. But yeah, man, I was excited. It was a great cast. Like I said, I loved Sean. I mean, those were the guys. And Zach fucking showed up. Zach showed up big time.

Holy fuck. And he is a sweetheart. I don't know if you've ever spoken to him or anything, but he's a very, very sweet, loving guy. He's great in the movie. Harris, Dickinson's, like, great. It was great, like, Moira Holt. And you work with Chavo. I work with Chavo.

Yeah, exactly. I knew that. Yeah. I didn't wrestle, but I mean, I knew Chavo. He was there all the time. Yeah, he's like the guy. Now, was there anything, because, you know, look, I went into Darvo. glow as not a wrestling fan yeah and now my producer who's like a you know just a brilliant guy

and like a very sophisticated guy you know has been a lifelong wrestling fan yeah and like you know for some reason i always just like you're such a smart guy sure why why would you sure but he loves it yeah and over time you know from doing glow and from you know being in a relationship with my producer brend you know i got a way of appreciation of the the sort of k-fab experience yeah and and And what it really, how it reflects life and, and I imagine acting. It's like, and right now we live in a wrestling culture politically. Sure. I mean, it's all, did you grow an appreciation for it?

Yeah, because I didn't, I similarly, you know, I didn't grow up. That was my thing. I had friends who really enjoyed it. Yeah. But were you the guy who was sort of like, you know, it's fake? What do you guys? A little bit, I think. Yeah, me too.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was just like, I don't, you know, I don't. I didn't get it. Yeah, yeah. And then you spend some time with Chavo, and you hear the way he talks about it. Yeah. And the storytelling of it.

Yeah. And you're like, oh, okay. Okay. I'm kind of putting this together a little bit. And then you think of the physicality of it. You know, these are athletes, you know, and the way they're training. Of course. And then I think during that time, there was also something very like punk about it,

where they were really putting their bodies on the line in a way that was like violent and interesting. And punk because it's fucking regional. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, you know, there are these guys with whole wrestling communities, you know, doing these veterans halls.

Yes. It's so fucking punk rock in the way. It was like grassroots in this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then I think the big change was, for me, yeah, when I was when I was performing it, which was like, I thought I was, I'm going to get all the moves, you know,

or I'm going to get strong enough or I'm going to be able to jump off this and flip over that, and that was my focus. Yeah. And I was pretty proud of myself for how I was showing up. Yeah. And Chavo was like, you're not, you're not paying attention to the story. You're not performing.

You're not performing. Yeah. You're just going through the thing. And he was like, you look good. Like you're doing all the things and it looks right. Yeah. But it's the moments in between where you're capturing the audience. You're capturing the attention.

You're telling the story of the, you know, the baby face and the heat and all that stuff. And, um, and you're building the suspense in the moment. moments in between. If you're just running around and you're whacking each other and you're flipping around and you're just going from move to move, it's almost like it's too fast. You know, they tell you that when you're doing like stunt work in a movie. I remember in the rental I had to do this thing where I'm like wailing on this guy and I just tried to like hit him as fast as I could and they were like, hard as I could. And they were like, it's not really showing on camera. It's just weird. Can you slow it down? Yeah, yeah. And I was like, I don't want to. I'm feeling the thing. And they were just like slow it down. Yeah, act. And I think, yeah, exactly. And I think. And I think. I think that it's a similar thing. You got to slow it down so people can get connected. But I have to assume, like, that had some, like, informative impact on just acting in general. Yeah, for sure. I mean, to, like, because the job is, like, because you're in a movie, it's almost like a movie within a movie or a play within a movie.

Yeah. That the context of the theater of wrestling, to have those tricks where you're kind of able to physically and through focus, build suspense. around these movements. Yeah. That's like a fucking whole different level of acting. Yeah, it's what I imagine like, I don't know,

like going to like clown school or mime or whatever that is. You're learning to tell a story physically. Yeah. You know. Yeah.

And of course, there's value in that for any actor. It's funny. You're going to have to list Chavo as one of your great actor acting teachers. There you go. He's on the list.

Macanini Chavo, yeah. So how did you handle like how are you handling it in general this uh you got pretty big pretty quick yeah i mean you know i think i was really lucky because it didn't feel like that for a long time you know i mean i was doing shameless for a long time i did my first movie when i was 15 yeah so you're kind of ready for it yeah i mean i think you know i'm i feel lucky and glad that it was age 30 where i kind of hit it rather than whatever, 19 or 20.

Yeah, yeah. And, yeah, I think I just have a lot of, I had a lot of time and a lot of trying and, you know. How's the attention, though? Does it fuck with you? I mean, you're kind of in that zone of it's a little tricky to walk down the street. I think there was a couple periods.

I think when the divorce stuff was going on and I was dating somebody who was far more famous than me at that kind of time after we were, getting divorced and um and yeah i got a little bit of the you know they were kind of at my house and people were following me around yeah how'd you handle that you know i got angry a couple times yeah and um and that doesn't really do much for you yeah yeah and i think that's just giving them meat yeah and i think uh you know my my publicist who have been with for a long time it's just kind of like just be boring and I am pretty boring yeah you know really yeah um and she was just like

he just got to wait and uh and yeah like when i'm in l-a my life is pretty simple you know i like to go out to dinner every once in a while well it's weird here because like there it's so common here yeah and that you know the business has always been here so most people are relatively respectful yeah yeah yeah and uh if not resentful yeah yeah yeah sure sure sure sure sure sure sure sure Yeah. Yeah, but I don't know. To be honest, I'm pretty un-bothered. Oh, good.

Well, that's good. So what happens now? So you just did, what, the third season of the bear? The fourth season just came out. Right. And you're going back? We're going to go back. We're going to do another one in January.

Yeah. And, yeah, I just did a thing, this thing with Austin I'd mentioned. What is that? It's this thing called Enemies. very like sort of like... Is it out? No, no, no, we just filmed it

a couple months ago and, and it's fun. It's very like Michael Mann. Oh, good, yeah. And he did it? No, no, no. But he was like a big, you know. Influence, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And yeah, now I'm, I'm hanging around. I went on a big, you know, vacation right after I finished that, which was lovely and took my kids rented a house on the East Coast for the month of July and all. Yeah, this little town called Belport village on Long Island. Oh, in Long Island?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, so, and you just hung out? Yeah, just hung out. I had friends out there. My folks are still in Brooklyn. They came out. My sister, her boyfriend, the girls.

Oh, that's great. Yeah, it was great. Oh, that's great. And now we're, you know, getting ready to get the Bruce movie out and go back to work, yeah. So the Bruce movie, how'd you feel about it? It was very hard. Well, yeah, especially because he's sitting there the whole time. Yeah.

But in terms of playing Bruce and doing your own. singing, from what I remember on set, that there were times where Bruce couldn't tell the difference. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, I had not had a lot of experience or any experience singing, playing guitar, any of it. And so that was daunting to say the least in the beginning. And I didn't have, I mean, I had a lot of time, but I didn't have as much time as I would have liked. You never do, you know. But I had about six months to kind of. Well, it's fortunate with those songs, the guitar playing is not like, not heavy. It's not a lot of, yeah, the chords are pretty simple.

There's not many of them, and a lot of the songs are in the same. But the singing was a, you know, a gamble. So what did you do? Just kind of like figure out at first just to mimic it? Like, do you listen to it? Yeah. And then kind of record yourself? Yeah.

I mean, I worked with this guy, Eric Vitro, who's kind of like the guy. You know, he helped Austin with the Elvis movie. He helped Timothy Chalamee with the Dylan movie. he's kind of the go-to and he works with a lot of amazing like vocalists and real singers and performers but I got together with him

just to like see what I can do or see where we could get at least you know and that's what you start with you're just like can I can I sing can I sing can I sing key do I have a good ear like is all this stuff like working

you know and then you know you try to find a little bit of that rasp and then you kind of try to get the, you start messing around with nasal. That jersey phrasing? Yeah, the phrase, and that phrasing, I mean, the phrasing on that record's tough.

Like, there's some run on, like, it's like, you know. And, uh, and, yeah, so I started with kind of all that. And then I really have to give Eric credit because he was there to kind of, or I thought he was there, to be like, you know, this is how you sing a song,

this is how you make it sound, sure yeah but he would catch me not feeling connected to it yeah and doing what as an actor I should have just been doing naturally yeah which is like what are you talking about yeah right what's going on right right have you written this down a whole bunch yeah just think think about is this the work of who's Bruce playing or or you know which moment in Bruce's life is this you know all this stuff it should have been simple but I was so worked up with how does this sound being self-conscious And sounding like Bruce. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So that was like a breakthrough. And then, you know, we pre-recorded. And so that gave me the ability to, like a lot of vocalists, you know, you sing the song for an afternoon. Yeah. And they go ahead and they put together your greatest hits. Right, right. Right.

But it's interesting because it's like the same advice Chavo gave you. Yeah, totally. How do you tell a story in this format that you are not familiar with? Totally. And I think I'm all working. worked up in, well, I'm not familiar with this. And I got to, let me get this move right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Am I singing in key? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But at the end of the day, I think, yeah, if it's honest, whether it sounds just like or looks just like the guy, people will believe it and they'll follow you, you know? And I remember Bruce was great the first time he, you know, he heard one of my prerecords because he was like, you know, you sound like me.

But you're saying the song, you know, and you're making the song your own. You've got your connection with the song. And I think once he kind of gave me that permission, not just with the music, but in a sense with the entirety of the film, I feel like that released me from a little bit of the anxiety and dread. And he did that early on? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Now, okay, so between the bear and Shameless and the wrestling movie and this thing, are you ready to come out of the tunnel? Of, you know, kind of like existential darkness. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, I mean, it's lonely men is really what it is. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And making a movie, making a TV show is already kind of a lonely existence. Yeah. So you could use that. So, yeah, it's right there for me. But yeah, I'm ready to take it easy on myself for sure. Well, what do you want to do? Is the enemies? Is that a comedy? No.

No, is that more lonely men? That's two very lonely men. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So what do you want to do? I don't know, you know. I mean, my rule has always been just try to work with people that you admire and you feel like you could look something from. That's my real only, like, you know, thing. Yeah.

But, yeah, now I'm in a very privileged position where, you know, I'm looking at a couple scripts. And there's someone I admire to do with any one of those things. And so, so yeah, I think, you know, there's certainly a searching for something. Sure. Well, I mean, I think you've got what it takes and you could just sort of like, Bradley Cooper seems to, you know, bounce around from format to format. For sure. You know, like it's got to be, do you feel like there's a risk of being typecast or no?

I don't subscribe to that. I mean, I think maybe it might have been more of a thing in, in generations before. But I think a lot of actors, you know, they can make sort of careers and interesting careers not doing the same thing. Sure, yeah. But living in a kind of a space, you know what I mean? Yeah. And I don't discredit those performers at all. Sure.

Most of them do take the risk, though. Yeah, at a point. Yeah, for sure, of course. Do little things here in that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Anything funny in the new scripts? Anything funny in the new scripts? Yeah, I mean, I'm looking at something I'm looking at something I might do at the end of this year even.

And yeah, it's quick. It's funny. There's a lot of wit. Oh, good. I wouldn't call it, you know. A comedy. It's not a comedy. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But it's certainly not, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not a man on the verge. You know what I mean? Well, good, because I think you need a break. Yeah, yeah. Creatively. I appreciate that.

Yeah. Great talking to you, man. So good talking to you. I appreciate it, man. Yeah, me too. There you go. That was great.

He's a good guy. Again, deliver me from nowhere premieres at the Telluride Film Festival this weekend. It opens in theaters on October 24th. Jeremy is nominated for an Emmy for an outstanding lead actor in a comedy for his role in the bear. And that's a great show as well. Hang out for a minute, folks. What's better than a well-marbled rib-eye sizzling on the barbecue?

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Hey, people, on Thursday, I talked to Oscar winner Regina King, who's in the new Darren Aronofsky movie, Caught Stealing. It's rare that you see a movie where, you know, violence isn't necessarily gratuitous. Yeah, it's just detached from character, just something you expect. Because all the violence in it is pretty violent. Yeah, that's what I keep hearing from people. It's pretty violent. But I think the reason people respond to that is because it's all very character-driven.

And the frame of the movie is fairly real. He went out of his way. Because I lived in that area where he shot for years. Oh, wow. I lived right on second street between A and B. So, like, walking by Benny's burritos and Kim's video, I'm like, because I knew he had rebuilt it. Yeah. But I literally lived on that block for like a couple of years.

Yeah. And he kind of made it pretty gritty and it seemed like the right time. And there was something, I tell you, once, you know, Leav and Vincent as the Hasidic Jews, it's so hard not to see guys doing those characters and wait for laughs. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's the opposite. Yeah. But there's that one scene with Carol Kane.

I mean, I guess you haven't seen it yet. I haven't seen it yet, I know. I can't wait because the feedback has been really great. And honestly, when the script came my way, first, I said, absolutely, I want to read it when I learned it was Darren. I mean, there's like, every actor, you know, you have your list of directors or filmmakers you want to work with. And I would say everybody, Darren, is in their 10. Oh, yeah?

You know, I feel like it. Okay, you know, you just respect just his storytelling abilities so much. And so then I read the script and I'm like, okay, so Darren Aronovsky's doing this story. Oh, all right. Yeah. Because I'm all about, don't be put in a box. Yeah. You know, and it's very clear that, you know, you may not call this a comedy, but if Darren

Aaronovsky's going to do a comedy. This is what the comedy is going to be like. That's this Thursday's WTF episode with Regina King. And a reminder, before we go, this podcast is hosted by ACAST. Here's a bit of guitar that I got through Peter Green and he got through a guy I think named Duster, Duster Bennett, is it? Yes. Yes, I believe so. I'll be playing this on the 10th at Largo with singing and more guitars. You know, I'm going to You know what I'm going to be able to be.

I'm going to be able to and be the I'm going to I'm going to I'm going to and I'm going and

and I'm going I'm and I don't know. Boomer lives, Monke and LaFonda, Cat Angels everywhere.