WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1673 - Regina King

Episode Date: August 28, 2025

Regina King’s depth and range as an actor won her dozens of awards and allows her to choose projects best suited for her. Regina and Marc talk about her early sitcom days on 227, her breakthrough performances in films like Boyz n the Hood and Jerry Maguire, her acclaimed turns in If Beale Street Could Talk and Shirley, her work as a director, and her latest role in Darren Aronofsky’s Caught Stealing. Regina also explains why she launched a brand of wine to honor her son. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Searchlight Pictures presents The Roses, only in theaters Friday. From the director of Meet the Parents and the writer of Poor Things comes The Roses. Starring Academy Award winner Olivia Coleman, Academy Award nominee Benedict Cumberbatch, Andy Sandberg, Kate McKinnon, and Allison Janney, a hilarious new comedy filled with drama, excitement, and a little bit of hatred, proving that marriage isn't always a bed of roses. See The Roses Only in Theater's Friday. Get tickets now. What's better than a well-marbled ribby? sizzling on the barbecue.

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Lock the gate! All right, let's do this. How are you? What the fuckers? What the fucksters? What's happening? I'm Mark Maren. This is my podcast.

Welcome to it. Welcome. Welcome to it. How is everybody doing? How are you holding up? Look, I'm okay. Today is a, it's a, it gets, it's a kind of a heavy talk. I guess I got to do a little bit of a, not a trigger warning.

I don't really like that term, but towards the end of this conversation with Regina King, you know Regina King, she's been acting since she was like a teenager on 227 and broke through with her roles in movies like Boys in the Hood and Friday. She's an Oscar winner for her performance in If Beal Street could talk. She's won Emmys, Golden Gloves, Independent Spirit Awards. A lot of stuff. Right now, she's in the new Darren Aronofsky movie, Caught Stealing, which I enjoyed. But towards the end, we do talk about the death of her son in some detail. He took his own life, and she's been public about it to a certain extent.

It came up in terms of talking about grief and mental illness. so I'm just telling you now it gets a little deep and emotional at the end okay so if that's going to somehow if you don't want to start crying on your run you might want to pause it when we start getting into that

but it's an important conversation the whole thing was great she's great she's great in this new movie I want to see a screening of caught stealing. And it's interesting because they really, you know, Aronowski really kind of gets the grit and, you know, kind of filth of New York at that time in the early 90s.

It was shot literally a block from my old house. A lot of it takes place on Avenue A between like, you know, fourth and seventh on Avenue A. He rebuilt the facade to Benny's burrito. Kim's video was there. So it was all very familiar to me because I was around then or even like shortly before that

I was still living down there. So it does have that vibe. But there's something I learned about watching this movie is that a lot of surprises in the movie actually and it's a pretty good story and everyone's good. Regina's great. Austin Butler's great.

Zoe Kravitz. Everyone's good. But there's something about violence that when it's not gratuitous, when it's not heightened or detached from you know, character in a way or if people get

some violence done at them, to them and they don't really have it coming, it's gnarly. There is an element of comedy to this thing, but it's a, the characters are deep

and Austin's character is a flawed and troubled guy. But it is definitely worth seeing. I mean, I think any, any Aronovsky movie is worth seeing. But it was kind of great to talk to Regina today because it was, it was a, it's a good, it's a good talk. So my show at Largo tonight is sold out, but I'll be back there with the band on Wednesday, September 10th. You can go to WTFPod.com slash tour for tickets. Also next week, we're doing an ask.

mark anything bonus episode so this is the last call for you to send in your questions just go to the link in the episode description of today's show and send me whatever you want to ask then get the bonus episode in your full Marin feed next tuesday how's that sound to you i talked to a class down at the annenberg school for communications and media or whatever a woman asked me to come speak to her class. I didn't realize it was the first day of that class. I didn't realize that I didn't really know what the class was about. And she just asked me questions and there maybe, maybe there was 20 people in the room. And there was part of me that one time thought like, oh, I could be a teacher. I don't think I can. I don't, I don't think I know how to be in front of an audience for very long

without, you know, getting a laugh or knowing that I'm connecting. And I tell you, teachers have got a tough job. You've really got to, you know, somehow kind of put some sort of filter on to not, you know, wonder whether you're connecting or not. And also I think I forget what it was like to be in college and who I was in college. And what I knew versus what I thought I knew, big gap, big gap. And if I really think back on it, like in philosophy class or logic class or even some of the classes about romantic poetry and stuff. It was way above my mental pay grade there. You know, I tried to take it all in, but I just did not come together for me.

I feel like it's just starting to come together now. I mean, I just, and I wasn't even talking in any lofty way, but I think there's just some basic things about talking about what you're thinking. with points of reference and whatnot that could get totally lost. And I'm not saying they weren't paying attention. Some of them had good questions about show business and whatnot. But I just had that moment where I was walking on campus and I was like, I kind of remember this.

I kind of remember who I was when I was like 21 or 20 at Boston University, you know, wondering if my trench coat was cool or whether I had my glasses for frames are okay, how is my haircut, you're just kind of going to these classes and playing the role of student, playing the role of a smart guy or a guy he thought he was smart. But in terms of what I really could grasp in college, in terms of, you know, the classes I was taking, you know, film studies and some satire classes, it's just the language of academics, the language of philosophy, the language of criticism, it was just, my brain was too blown open. I couldn't contextualize or compartmentalize much of anything.

And I still strove to do it and I have my whole life and I think I've gotten a little better at it. But sometimes when I try to, you know, read the texts of criticism or philosophy, I don't fucking know. I just dump stuff into my head. Sometimes I pull something out that kind of aligns with kind of what I'm thinking. Then I feel validated. And I'm like, yeah, me and this guy who's a brilliant cultural critic, we're kind of thinking the same thing. I just had half a joke about it. But there's half a book about it here. But I think I nailed it. I think I had it. Maybe that's all I need. Maybe I can let that go. But I do know that I don't think I

could be a teacher but these conversations there's still the lifeblood of uh what i do and and you know who i am and and this one as i said earlier it does get heavy and yeah something kind of interesting happened during it you know i was able to kind of hold the space and and listen and remain empathetic but i i didn't really kind of get you know i didn't really attach to my own grief till kind of later in the conversation about hers. And I think that was good. I think that's okay. You know, it was Lynn's,

Lynn Shelton's birthday yesterday. I believe she would have been 60. And a couple of people are like, I hope you're okay today. I'm like, I think about it a little bit every day. I think the anniversary of her passing is more difficult. And I don't know if I've compartmentalized it, but there's some part of me that just knows that and has known for a while that

you know in light of the tragedy of her death but it's just people die and I don't think I've become callous to it but there's a sort of a bit of an acceptance to it to the to the struggle of living and the reality of dying and you know what you do in between and, you know, how do you kind of navigate the urgency to get those tweaks done? So you go out fully formed and okay. Be nice to go out okay as opposed to go out. Hey, wait, wait, I got it. I'm okay.

Cut? No, wait, let me give me one more. Cut. Fuck. I think I've decided on my epitaph, you know, these things come and go. Some of them are funny. Some of them are honest. But I think on my tombstone, if I do that, or on my urn, on my plaque, I think I just wanted to say, the other shoe.

Huh? What do you make of that? Pretty good? The other shoe. I like it. Anyway, Regina King is here, and as I said earlier, it does get heavy. It might be emotional for some of you towards the last 15 minutes or so of this talk. She's in the new Darren Aronofsky movie, Caught Stealing, which opens tomorrow in theater.

She also has a new wine line called Me and You, spelled M-I-A-N-U. And that's important because it is a passion project. that we discuss it actually kind of you know kind of moved us through a discussion of grief that I didn't know really how we were going to kind of move out of it's interesting when you talk to people and that stuff comes up and I started feeling mine and she was feeling hers and you're like I don't think we're going to be able to get out of this because we need to let it happen. And, but it, it kind of went right into this reason that she, she, um, created this, uh, this wine. And it's touching. Uh, so this is me talking to Regina King.

Searchlight Pictures presents the roses. Only in theaters Friday. From the director of meet the parents and the writer of poor things. The Roses, starring Academy Award winner Olivia Coleman, Academy Award nominee Benedict Cumberbatch, Andy Sandberg, Kate McKinnon, and Allison Janney, a hilarious new comedy filled with drama, excitement, and a little bit of hatred, proving that marriage isn't always a bed of roses. See The Roses only in theaters Friday. Get tickets now. Thank you for coming. Thank you for having me. Yeah, painful authenticity. That's what it's all about. That's what we're opening up with, right?

Well, you know, I don't, I don't think I know how to do it any other way. But, you know, I guess it takes a while to get to your authentic being. You know what? I think that that's true, and I think some people never quite find that. Yeah, because you put up, I think you put up, like, all these defenses or ways of getting through life, and then you kind of get used to those. And if you never have that moment where you're like, well, this is bullshit, and find the courage to kind of get past it.

But that's the hard part, right? Harnessing the courage. Yes. That is the hard part. Because people are shitty. and you know they're always thinking about themselves and I don't know I deal with it a lot now and I'm 61 I just I think about it more now like when I perform really yeah really yeah that's interesting because you hear so many people as you know I would say even just even thinking about myself each decade I feel like I discover a new right um version of myself or I have a new, yeah, I don't really give a fuck, you know, moment, you know. That helps the new version of yourself.

Exactly. As you get older and the zero fucks kind of start to stack up, you realize like, I really don't give a shit. And that's a powerful place to come from. Yeah. When you really don't give a shit, because if you really don't, it's freedom. It's freedom. Yeah. It's freedom.

And I don't know, like on stage lately, I've just been, I wrote down on my notebook yesterday, I wrote to Limit Swagger. I like that. Just to see what will that do? L.S. L.S. And just get down to the voice of who you are. Because like we live in this world now where nobody shuts up.

Oh my gosh. Yes. The noise. It's fucking crazy. The noise. It's just like a never ending. yammering. Just people,

gag, and there's a frequency to it. It's almost like a mania. And I don't, it just gets to the point where you got to save

your brain. 1,000%. It's so crazy that you said that because just yesterday, you know how like your car hooks up to your Bluetooth?

And if you don't turn it off just as soon as you get in the car, it automatically starts playing, you know, which on your Spotify or whatever. And, And so this one podcast that I was listening to because there was, and I've never heard of the podcast before. And it popped up on my flipboard.

And so I was so curious about that topic. So I'm going to listen to it. And it was interesting, you know, it was only like 24 minutes, good for me. Sure. And for whatever reason, I get in my car. And I was actually listening to it while I was in New York. So I'm back in L.A., in my car. And it had gone to the next episode.

And the voices. Yeah. It was really making me feel crazy. Yeah. Because everyone is, like I did radio years ago. Yeah. Like morning radio. And I just realized this recently.

that in order to get up and do live radio and get, you know, people are going to work. You get into this tone. What's everybody got going? And here we go. This is where we're talking at this level. And you lock into that. And I think that is, I think it happens innately when people get on these mics. Right.

And they feel like there can't be any pauses. You know, to learn how to pause like this. Well, you got to, you know, you have quieter podcasts in there. But the general means of talking on a, on the. these mics is gagga, and then on TV it's all that, no one stops. It's no one stops and it's like on a frequency

that is annoying. And I have to be honest that I kind of discovered that with myself with talking on the telephone that I would go into a pitch that was really, I started hearing myself. Right, for an interview or just in general? Just in general. You know what I mean?

It's good you still pick up your phone. I still use it for a. a phone. That's good. But yeah, like that same like moment that you had when you left radio, morning radio, I had that same realization like maybe about 10 years ago or so where I was like, you know what, this conversation is not the problem. I am the problem because my tone is up so high.

Yeah. And even as like an actor, I mean, you know the power of pauses. But, you know, in regular conversation, you sometimes. you're just sort of like, let's get, let's get this done. Yes. But you know, that's a funny thing. Another funny thing I realized. That's how you know with some of those commercials that they're AI because they're

no pauses. Right. They just go. Yeah. I can't even wrap my brain around the AI yet. I don't know what to do with it. It's insane. It's here.

Well, I know it's here, but like everyone's talking about it. And like maybe I'm not knowing when I'm engaging it. Like, I'm not a complete sucker. I do like the AI when you search for. for something on the Google and you get all these different options. That seems helpful. Yeah. And when I see some of the AI on the reels on the IG, some of them are funny.

Yeah. Yeah, but I don't know, you know, what's slipping by me. Right. And what it's real and what is it real. What is it? Mm-hmm. I feel like there has to come a time where we can make a choice to detach from all of it for periods of time.

Well, I think for any sanity, you do have to. to consciously make that decision to detach. It's hard. Yeah. It's like drugs, man. Yeah. I mean, even like when you're on set, you know, and then like cut and everyone's just in their chair. I've been doing the last two projects that I've been on, I've been leaving my phone in the trailer.

How's that working out? It's worked out really great. Also because... What did you do at that time? I actually... Look at the script. Yeah. But usually I don't bring my script to set, to be quite honest.

When I started a show called Southland, Christopher Chulock was the producing director there, he made a mandate that no sides were allowed on set. No sides. And that was probably the best gift he could have ever given. I feel like all of us that were on that show probably still operate in the same way. So since then, you know, I don't bring,

unless I have a question specifically, specifically for the director, and I want to remember my notes that I had written in my script. That's the only time I'll bring my script to set. Really? But it just, it's almost like the script sometimes can be like, is Linus the one on Peanuts with the blanket? Yeah. It's like your binky. Sure. You know what I mean?

And so even though you might have prepared, sometimes you just will go up on a line just because you don't have that. that piece of something right there with you. And I feel like it was really liberating that he had done that. And if I do go up on the line and I'm not able to substitute it with something else because I am actually in the scene, I just will old school call out line. Sure. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, so it helped your whole process. Help my whole process. How many episodes do you do of that, Southwind? We did four or five C. I want to say we did like 50 episodes. So that's like a full training in no sides. Oh, 1,000% and whenever we would have guest actors that would come on, they would freak out. And I mean, these are like established actors.

Just for the day? Just for the episode. They think you're going to knock it out and just have the sides and learn them that day. And then they get that mandate and they're like, oh my God, you guys, they really enforce this and we're like, yeah. Yeah, because you're on set and people are like, wait, cut, can you take the sides out of your pocket? We're seeing the sides. We're seeing the sides. All of that.

You know, or Chris also felt like with the sides, people were disrespecting the words. You know, you see them on the ground, people walking on them, using them as coasters. Sure. Yeah, just garbage. Just garbage, exactly. So I thought it was great, and I still use that to this. But it also forces you to prepare in a different way, like the real way, like really know it. To really know it, and honestly, it also forced a lot of actors, forced us to have conversations and ask questions before we're actually shooting the scene.

Oh, good. Because that's eating up time and the day. Yeah. So we would have, like, incredibly short days because all of the work was already done. And that's sort of the job. Well, it becomes difficult when you do, like, a whole movie, like, I watch Shirley. And, I mean, so you didn't have your sides at all? No, I didn't.

What I had was the script supervisor and my dialect coach. And my dialect coach would, before every scene, we would just go over. Because sometimes there were like three or four really big speeches in Shirley. And, you know, they needed to become part of me. And so those speeches, I feel like I didn't need to go over those lines as much because I'd already, you know, like, I've got to get these speeches. Right. And it was more just the dialect coach just pointing out places that I may have, you know, dipped with the dialect. But it was for the scenes that are with other actors where I really relied on.

my dialect coach and script supervisor and luckily had really I had actor actors that are in this for the art form so we wanted to go through lines so we did a lot of just running our lines just together yeah that's good yeah that's a good

it was a good cast yeah so awesome what is that what is her dialect exactly slightly so yeah Shirley has such a unique dialect so she's Bayesian but she's born in New York, then lived in

Barbados for like... And her husband's from there? No. Her husband's Jamaican. Her husband's Jamaican. Yeah. Yeah.

And her, I call him her consigliary. Yeah. Rest in peace, Lance. Great actor. Awesome actor. Yeah. He was Ghanaian.

Yeah. So sometimes the three of us, we, and the Michael Cherry who played Shirley's husband He is actually Trinidadian So we were all working with dialects And sometimes when all three of us were in a scene together

We really had to work To not start picking up the other person Yeah, I have to do that here Yeah It happens sometimes I'll become Like sometimes if I interview an old Jewish comedian I'll ask my producer

At what point did I turn into an old Jew? When did that happen? So you're an actor Why act, yeah. Yeah, you're an actor. I do the thing. I mean, I... Because that's what we do.

We can't really help, but we're like sponges. Yeah. Maybe, really, maybe, I don't know if I ever framed it as an actor. I just thought I was needy and believe that other people's lives were infinitely more interesting than mine. But, uh, so I just kind of, kind of glom on, you know, take the ride. Are you a people watcher? Sure. So yeah, you're, you're, I, because.

Because every actor that I know, we're all people watchers. I do it a lot more. I'm doing it more again. Yeah. Because, you know, Robert Crum is, the cartoonist? No. But that name sounds for me. What is cartoonist?

He's like an underground cartoonist. He did, like, in the 60s, he did like Mr. Natural and all that. You'd probably recognize the. Recognize the cartoon. Yeah. But he has a very specific way of looking at almost everybody. And it's kind of like almost just slightly. grotesque.

Hmm. And I just watched a doc about him again. And I've been looking at everybody kind of like that. And it humanizes them. Slightly grotesque. Yeah, slightly grotesque. Just even so plain. Sightly grotesque.

Hold on a second. I don't want to be rude, but I got to, hold, I just want to say hi to my mother. Oh, hi, Mom. Yeah, hold on. It's hard to get her. Hello? Hi. Well, how you doing?

Good. What's up? I'm interviewing somebody, but I didn't want to miss your call. Um, are you doing okay? Yeah. Yeah. Were you watching me in that show? Yeah.

Did you like it? I love you. Oh, good. Look, I'm trying to make plans to get down there. So try to, you know, try to stay here. Okay. All right, but you feel good? Yeah.

All right, I love you. I'll talk to you. I'll call you tomorrow. Okay, babe. Bye. Oh, moms are the best. Well, so. And you're such a, yes, you are truly a comedian.

And the fact that she would say, so just stay here. Well, she's down in Florida, and I haven't been able to get down there. And, you know, she is getting older. So there's that thing where whatever my relationship with her is, you, you know, you kind of go through life. And you're kind of like, yeah, I'll call her later. And I don't know, whatever. And then all of a sudden, you're like, I got to. Yeah.

My sister and I, we're going to have a real deep conversation right now. We go once, she'll go for one week and I'll go for one week. Our mother's in Ohio and because my stepdad died a couple years ago. And so she's in this house by herself. Oh, she's still in her house. She doesn't want to move. She doesn't want to move here. Are there stairs?

Yes, the stairs are what's keeping her heart going. Oh, good. You know, she goes up those stairs faster than. Yeah. But, you know, she's 81. And so we're going to have to, it's, thank God I have an amazing, my bonus sister, she's our step-sister, but so even though her father passed, you know, she still comes and sees my mom every other day.

Oh, that's the best. Yeah, she is absolutely the best. I love you, Stephanie. Oh, that's the best. But, you know, we're going to have to do it. Yeah, we're going to have to come more than, you know, one week. out of the month. And she's still chatty and with it? She is

she's battling the beginning stages of dementia and I'm finding a lot of my friends were in this same place with our parents but the thing that's really kind of heartbreaking watching your parents lose their independence is that with my mother's situation

she's aware of it. It's not like she's not aware of the mental thing. She's fully She's a teacher. Yeah. And so she feels a decline and we'll be in mid-conversation and she'll just stop. Yeah. And she'll say, I want to, I just don't know the words. I want, you know, and so to know that that's happening to you, you know.

It's heartbreaking. It's heartbreaking. So we just try to remind her just to give herself grace, you know. Well, that's nice because my dad's pretty far gone with it. and he doesn't seem to know at all. Well, that's, you know, what we commonly recognize, you know, any type of dementia. Yeah. I hate the word dementia.

I want to just call it old-timers. Yeah. I say my dad's newly demented. Because, you know, dementia is sad, but newly demented. It's like, what's going to happen? Well, what's this thing? Yeah. Yeah.

Well, there is something to that. I mean, he still seems to know me. and, you know, his wife is a bit younger than him, and she kind of makes him listen to the podcast and stuff. So he knows me, but, like, day of stuff. You can dig up some memories and stuff. But, like, you ask him if he feels well or if he remembers the movie,

he doesn't seem to care. Like, he, I think she's in the ventroquist dummy stage of dementia where his wife, I'll say, did you see a movie yesterday? And he goes, yeah, Rosie, what do we, what was that movie? So he just, she just speaks through him. Yeah.

And it keeps his brain alive. Yeah. But the whole, I don't know, both of them are still alive. Yeah. Did your parents have you young? Well, my mother, I don't know. I mean, I feel like she was born in the 40s, so she had me at 26, 27. So that's the age that most people, now people are having children later in life.

So I would say, no, they, my mom. Mother was a normal age and my father was older. My father was 16 years older than my mom. Wow. Yeah. He was, yeah. My mom was 22. But even 26, if you think about a 26 year old now, you're like, what?

Yeah. It's crazy. Yeah, I have my son at 25. Really? Yeah. You're like a kid. Well, I didn't feel, I mean, you know, I owned a home at that time. You know, I, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So I've been working since I was a child. Well, I guess you're not really a kid, but like, I just. Well, in some cases. Yeah, I will definitely say that lucky to have the mom that I have because I do, I do know even then that I was much more mature than my peers. Yeah, yeah. And what, does she, you don't come from Ohio, do you? No, I'm born and bred in L.A. My parents met here in L.A.

Okay. And had me and my sister. And what's she doing in Ohio? She went back to, my mother's from Ohio. So about a little over 30 years ago when my grandmother was starting to slow down a bit, she moved back to Ohio to be closer to her. Oh, to her mom? Yes, yes.

But you're not planning to move back to Ohio. We are going to have to have that conversation. Really? Well, I mean, I'm not at a place where I'm okay with. moving my mother out of a space where she is uncomfortable out where she's comfortable to a space that she has to get to know.

Yeah, yeah. You know, like I said, she doesn't have, she remembers things. It's not like where am I? She doesn't have, you know, any of that. She's very much aware. She keeps her calendar, you know, and she just knows where everything is.

Yeah. And, you know, it's our mom. So we, we, right now, Now we're going to be the ones to have to make a change. What would you think about, like, just getting an apartment there or something? Well, her, the house that she's in is big. Yeah, okay. Because, you know.

Right. And it's just her in it. So I think, look, I'm having this conversation with you and I haven't started having it with my sister yet. So the plan to have the conversation with my sister is that maybe. You can just tell her to listen to this. Yeah, listen to the podcast. and what the yeah that might be her response

when I tell her but my thought is that maybe we would just how we're alternating weeks now that maybe we just kind of stretch it out and alternate months yeah that might work out yeah might we'll see so getting back to Shirley

that movie seemed like like it was a movie that I didn't think I'd ever see and you know I don't my memories of Shirley Chisholm were you know I was a kid Yeah. But I remember it was a big deal.

So really, watching your movie was the first full arc of education I got about her. Wow. And it's an important story. Yes. So when did you get hung up on that story? My sister and I got hung up on that story about 17 years ago. I mean, because just separately, we both had conversation. with people who had never even heard her name.

Right. And so that was a little mind-blowing for us. And then we did a little bit more asking people about, do you know who Shirley Chisholm is? And found that more of our East Coast friends knew who she was than West Coast friends. And we were like, okay, her story, she's like the godmother of a first. Yeah, you know.

And she's the blueprint. Right. And so we set out to do this film, and it took us this long to get to actually becoming a reality. How did you, like, how did the process happen? Because it was your idea? You, you, like, optioned a book, or you bought the story. Yeah, actually, so we were with a lot of different teams of writers along the way. It went out a lot.

Yeah, yeah. Went through a lot of versions? Yeah. Only one version of a script. Right. But two other ideas of what it could look like. And so the first writing team we were with, they were still close to them now. We still are trying to find that project to do.

But what happened is their stars started rising, my stars started rising, and we just the time. Yeah. We'd put together a package. We had, you know, locked in on an outline that we felt like was good. Yeah. And then we just started, you know, life started and going different ways. And then Raina and I picked it back up again. It may have been...

She's your production partner? My production partner. My sister, Raina is my production partner. And I can't really remember exactly when. But it was, I was shooting the second, third season of American crime with John Ridley. And I said, Raina, what do you think about John Ridley? Yeah. Why not?

Why not? You know, he loves history, you know. And she was like, ask him. Ask him now. Ask him why you're on set. And I'm like, okay. So I asked him. You got the time.

You're not using your phone. Yeah. I see what you did there. That's a true comedian. You guys know how to bring Nets back. I love it. So asked him, he loved the idea. And so we started getting to work.

And in that small amount of time, all of a sudden an announcement was made that Viola Davis was going to be doing Shirley Chisman. Another project. Another project. Shirley Chesa project. How the fuck does that always happen? I don't know.

And here's the thing. We had the rights from her sister, the life rights from her sister. So we had been, we had been, even though that long pause had happened before we approached John, there, we still kept continuing the rights with her sister Muriel. And Muriel was like, you know, am I going to see it one day? And we were like, Muriel, we are, we are. And she died just as we were starting production. That was kind of pre-production. Yeah.

So that was sad, but, you know, we kept our word, you know. Did Viola make hers? No. So what happened was when I saw that announcement, we got together kind of huddled as a team and had talked about, well, we should make an announcement too. And I said, you know what? I love Viola. She's, like, amazing.

And I think she would be an amazing Shirley Chisholm. So if she's made it there first, then, you know what? Wow. Let's just, we'll have to step away. And whatever happened, that that didn't work out. And as soon as it didn't work out, we jumped back in, made an announcement. Did you talk to her about it?

I still have not talked to her about it. I know John really. We started doing comedy together. Yes. I keep forgetting that that's where John, you know, is writing. For a few years there. Yeah. And he was good.

He was like angry and intense. Angry. And that dry. Yeah. And I've talked to him. He was on the show years ago. But yeah, he's really kind of become a lot of things. Yeah.

Yeah. Better that he stayed out of comedy. 1,000% better that he stayed out of comedy. I feel like when he first said that he started in the comedy space with writing as well. And I was like, I just feel like I'd have to think too much about the joke to get the joke. Yeah. He's a very smart guy in his. He had some very smart jokes.

I still remember a couple of his jokes. I brought it up about it. So do you find that, how did people react to the story? Did you get feedback on Shirley? I mean, you know, you never know if people are giving you a BS version of what they feel about something. But it felt genuine. Every person that express that they did not know. Thank you for letting.

them know. We got a lot of that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We got a lot of, you know, that they thought it was just such an amazing cast. Yeah, yeah. And we got a lot of people who were, you know, like, part of the campaign. Yeah. Oh, really? They were teenagers. Yeah, yeah. And who were very thankful for telling Mississippi's story. Yeah, sure. That's great. That's great. And But you didn't want to direct that one? No, no. The acting and the embodying her, that was just, that's heavy lifting. You know, I did not want to.

Especially with the dialect and everything. Just all of us, she's such a specific character, you know, just from how she walked, the way she spoke, the way she would change the way she'd speak, depending on who she was talking to. And you got to study footage, too, I imagine. Yeah, and it's hard. Like, if you're in every scene, how you're going to really direct? Yeah. You just, it's all on the... I mean, and people do it, and I've seen, like, a great...

Like, Don Chito did an amazing job. Miles Davis? Oh, my God. People don't talk about that movie enough. Yeah. What a weird fucking movie that is. What a weird fucking great movie. You know what I mean?

Like that... Totally. You know, it was stylized. Because it's like a whole thing's like a hallucination. Yeah. And I thought it was... Totally. Totally.

Yeah. I thought it was great. I thought it was amazing. It's such a shame, like, in this world. of media that things just come and go. I know. And it becomes hard to find. I know. And people work so hard on them.

I feel like part of it is because there's just so much content. I know. Yeah. Just the idea that we call it content now is terrible. I know. And how so much content is being made to

entertain distracted people. People who can't actually put their phone down and watch a film or watch a show. Well, they keep telling us that people aren't capable of attention spam, but they're guilty of causing that.

1,000%. People are capable. Yeah. But, you know, you've designed the system based on an algorithm that, you know... Don't get me started. Yes, don't get me started. What made you decide that for your film directing

debut that that night in Miami was the one to do? Well, I had a meeting with my lit agent. Yeah. And this, he was a new lit agent. I had not, I didn't, we didn't, I didn't jail quite right with the first one that I had. Sure. And so with Harley, we went to lunch and I told him that I wanted to do something that was entertaining.

But that was centered, that the story had a true, real life happening as the backdrop. Yeah. And that that was, you know, he asked me the question, what type of films I want to direct? And I'm like, all types of films. But this is one. Yeah. And he sent me three scripts that were, that had that, that, that met that note. Yeah. And when I read one night in Miami, I was like, oh, my God, like, this is my father, this is my son, this is my uncle. Like, I could see all the men that really had made an impact in my life.

It felt like if them and their friends were having real heart-to-heart discussions, debates, that they would look something like this. Right, but people with consequence. With consequence. Cultural, political. Yes. And I mean, like, and that's a real story. Yeah. It's crazy because not unlike Shirley, which was a different and bigger story, this was

sort of a clandestine, you know, no one would know this story necessarily. Yeah. But somebody was a play first? It was a play. Kemp Powers had written the play and it had done really well. Yeah. I mean, it performed all the way from the West End to here. So is it based on a real event or was it?

Yes, that night actually took place. With, it was Muhammad Ali, Jim Brown, Sam, Sam, Cook, Malcolm X. Yes, that night actually took place after Muhammad Ali's win. Yeah. That literally solidified him into being the great that we know him to be. And, and again, like those conversations that they were having are conversations that a lot of black men were having. And so what is it for me?

Like, how powerful for Kemp to be fearless enough to write a story to put these four giants and say, we're going to look at them as just regular men. Yeah, yeah, I guess that was the trick, yeah. And they're all very different. Could not be more different. That's really like if, you know, people always say, well, what is, what is this story saying, what message is that, I think for me is that there's no only one right way to do something. Yeah, you know, it's situational.

You know, some, this, this move may be the best move. This move may be the best move. And sometimes it's a combination of all of them together and seeing, especially that relationship between Sam Cook and, um, Malcolm X, was especially beautiful to me to be able to consider that there is a such thing, and human beings actually do debate healthily and actually grow from those. Yeah, challenge each other. Yeah, challenge each other. Take the hit and change their thoughts and change their minds.

Yeah. Yeah. So it was a beautiful thing, that movie. Yeah, thank you. Do you think, like, do you consider your first big break with Singleton? You know, honestly, Mark, I feel like I have a few big breaks. I feel like obviously, you know, when I was on the show 227, that's just as a child. That's huge.

Yeah. And then I feel like then the next one was with John and Boys in a Hood, Busting out of being the little girl on a little girl show 2-7, yeah, you know, that did no wrong. Yeah. And then Jerry McGuire. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I felt like those three were just really pivotal moments in my career that the industry started to see me as truly an actor. Yeah. you know yeah and but like when you direct i mean did you like i i assume singleton was kind of a force

as a director absolutely and because like it's fun yeah oh yeah you're younger and it was exciting yeah it was exciting fun cast yeah but like i think i believe i i've said this before but i think baby boy is a fucking masterpiece yeah i mean like that movie i can't believe that movie yeah one of john's abilities is to recognize talent in people that we don't even know that we have and identify that. And so that was the case with, you know, while Tyrese may not have been trained and Taraji was more trained, I think he recognized something in both of them that let's put these two together.

It was so, you know. It's hilarious. Yeah. Yeah. It's hilarious and it's heartbreaking and it's, you know, it's all the things. Yeah. Ving rames.

Yeah. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

A project that we're developing now. Yeah. At our company, a character in there. I want to. The plan is when we get the official green light. Yeah. That I'm calling Ving. up, like, hey, it's time for you to reprise that, that, that energy that you had there.

Yeah. It was something else, right? If he hears this, it's an early call out. Yeah. And where did you start acting? Did you train here? Yes, here in L.A. In, like, in school, did you just seek it out?

Because it's interesting when people grow up in L.A. Because it's all here. It's everywhere. Yeah, yeah. Well, my mother, being a teacher, also was always, and still does believe that. The arts are just as important to exercise your brain and all of that as math, science. Yeah. Oh, that's good.

Yeah, and so she always supported anything my sister and I wanted to do. So whether it was tap dancing or playing piano, we just had to stick through it throughout the amount of time we signed up for. Sure. And so we started, we were at one of my mom's friend's house and up the street from that friend, Todd Bridges, live. Yeah. And his mom, Betty Bridges, was outside roller skating while we were outside roller skating. So, you know, at eight years old, it's kind of like, to her, she would never think that now. Yeah.

But she was an old lady to us. And we were like, oh, my gosh, she's out here on roller skates. And I guess us being so curious about it and asking her, you know, so it doesn't hurt for you to skate, you know, just asking her all of the dumb kid questions. Yeah. And actually, there's no dumb question, only the one that wasn't asked. Yeah. I don't fully believe that. Right. Right. Yeah. But for the kids that are listening. But the kids that are listening. Yeah. Be questioned. Yeah, ask questions.

Yeah, ask questions. And so she, I guess, took a liking to us being so, you know, bold to ask a grown-up for these questions. So she was like, well, where do you guys stay? And we're like, we're just visiting our friend. And she was like, well, is your mother here? And we were like, yeah. And so she always skates to that. Yeah, we didn't really know.

And so we walk in and we're like, mom, this lady outside wants to see. and Raina and I are looking at each other and she tells my mom that she has a acting academy and if would we be interested in going and we were like oh my God, yes please because at that point my sister and I used to do put on plays for our parents and recite Shell Silverstein poems from where the sidewalk ends.

We were performing. Yeah, yeah. So to hear her say that was just like, yes, absolutely. And it worked out. It worked out. I didn't have to become a dentist. A dentist? That was the second choice?

That was the second choice, yes. But that's crazy. Yeah. And I saw, like, I mean, you've done so much stuff. I watched the new movie. I did watch that. Oh, you got a chance to see? Caught stealing?

Yeah, that's not yesterday. Oh, sweet. Sweet. They set me up at the AMC and Burbank alone at two in the afternoon. at the whole theater. Did you, no one else? No one. Shut up.

Yeah, it's just me watching it. I haven't seen it. You haven't? I have not seen it. Really? Well, because Darren, and you know what? I'm not mad at him for this. He does not want to send out any links or screens.

Well, that's why they had to do that secret screening. Yeah. Oh, you could have come. Yeah. I mean, here's the thing. All of the times, because that's what they were doing, what wanted to do. what they did with you, which means that's more expensive because they're buying

out the theater for that or the showing. They're not having regular press screenings. Right. And so I some of the screenings, they're press people there, but they have to work out when they can come. And so it just hasn't worked

out with my schedule to not watch it on the screener. So I'm going to watch it at the premiere. It's kind of a great movie in in in the sense that it's it's rare that you see a movie where you know violence isn't necessarily gratuitous yeah as just detached from character just something you expect because all the all the violence in it is is it's pretty violent yeah that's what I keep hearing from people it's pretty violent and uh but but I think the reason people respond to that is because it's all

very character driven and the the frame of the movie is fairly real he went out of his way because I lived in that area where he shot for years. Oh, wow. I lived it right on second street between A and B. Okay. So, like, walking by Benny's burritos and Kim's video, I'm like, because I knew he had rebuilt it. Yeah.

But I literally lived on that block for like a couple of years. Yeah. And he kind of made it pretty gritty and it seemed like the right time. And there was something, I tell you, once, you know, Leav and Vincent as the Hasidic Jews. It's so hard not to see guys doing those characters and wait for laughs. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's the opposite.

Yeah. But there's that one scene with Carol Kane. I guess you haven't seen it yet. I haven't seen it yet, I know. I can't wait because the feedback has been really great. And honestly, when the script came my way, first, I said, absolutely, I want to read it when I learned it was Darren. I mean, there's like, every actor,

you know, you have your list of directors, filmmakers you want to work with. And I would say everybody, Darren is in their 10. Oh, yeah? You know, I feel like it. You know, you just respect just his storytelling abilities so much. And so then I read the script and I'm like,

okay, so Darren Aronofsky's doing this story Oh, all right Because I'm all about Don't be put in a box Yeah You know And it's very clear that You know you may not call this a comedy

But if Darren Aronofsky's going to do a comedy This is what the comedy is going to be like He calls it a comedy? I don't know that Darren would actually say That it's a comedy But I know that that is the closest thing To a comedy that Darren would do I guess like you know

And he has a sense of humor Well, yeah, and there are jokes in there, and it is, you know, it's kind of an underdog story, but it is, the characters are pretty thorough. So, like, you know, even if you have to suspend your disbelief around, you know, some of the, you know, the realities of the thing, and it's clearly shot with this sensibility of, like, it's a guy caught in a caper that he didn't expect to be caught in. So that in itself is sort of a comedic premise. Right. And, you know, the punk rock guy is kind of a clown. Yeah, Matt Smith. And that Hussides are kind of funny.

But your character is very intense. And Griffin Dunn is that... So awesome. The old guy who owns... He played that really well. Yeah, Paul. Yeah. So there's definitely...

I guess if I really think about it, it's comedy. But the weight of where all you guys are coming from is heavy, man. Yeah. Yeah. And it is a spoilable movie. So we can't really... We can't say much. We can't talk too much.

But your character is so great. And just the fact that you're all in, you know, when you see her, you're like, all right, well, this is... Yeah, but we can't. Because the plot twist actually worked. Yes. You really don't see them coming. That's the great thing. And when I read the script, that's what I told Darren.

I said, usually with... You know, with the story, you like... Oh, okay. You know, by a certain way, by page 30, you know that this character is going to do this. Yeah, yeah, right. And I was like, Darren, I did not catch it. Yeah. So I felt good.

After you read it the first time? After I read it the first time, I didn't catch it until, you know, it was revealed. And there's several of those moments. Yes, exactly, yeah. And so I just felt like if anybody's hands this was going to be good in, it's in Darren's hands. And then he's telling me, at that point, I want to say only Austin, Butler, when there was interest with me, Austin was the only one that was cast. Yeah. And so I've heard great things about Austin, and I went and met Darren, and I was, you always like go into something and hold your breath when it's someone you're meeting someone you're a fan of because you don't want that to be.

destroyed. Y'all don't want to be like, fuck Darren Aronovsky movies. You know, I didn't want to feel like that, you know? And he could not have been more clear about the story that he was trying to tell and it was the story that I read on that page. I felt like here's an opportunity

to do something that is a little pulpy but it puts us in that place of even though the film takes place in the 90s but of those 90s films that we We love that they weren't a bunch of green screen. It was like a fight was a real fight. Yeah. A car crash was a real car crash.

Yeah. Just all of that, all of those die hard type feelings that you would have, be suspense at the edge of your seat. What's going to, that's how the script read. Yeah. I think it definitely came off that way. Yeah. But it is interesting that you get invested in these characters. Yeah.

And it's all surprising. Yeah. There's a, there's, there's, there is a heavy emotional weight that Austin has to carry. And you know what's also funny to me, Mark, that so often in movies like that when you have just, the, the character to how did I wind up here? Yeah. A lot of times those movies annoy me because like, you, I, we know why you ended up to me. You know what I mean? You keep doing dumb thing after dumb thing. Whereas with, um, Hank, um, Austin's character, you feel for him because you're like, God, he doesn't deserve that. Come on.

Yeah, he had no idea. Yeah. Yeah, it was kind of, it was kind of great. And the film, if Bill Street could talk. You know, I interviewed Jenkins Barry on here. Wow. That guy is a fucking genius. I was supposed to, I was going to say it, but I let you finish this into you.

I couldn't, like, you know, I. had this experience, you know, watching Underground Railroad, and I was like, why isn't the entire world talking about this? I know. And I just couldn't understand. It's back to what we were talking about just 10 minutes ago. Yeah. Yeah, with things get lost. Things get lost. Yeah, but I do think that's something like that. And also, you know, there's a certain way that this culture, and I, look, I'm no one to call out any specific institutionalized problems, but how they frame, you know, black artists work, it just doesn't, you know, I don't know how you celebrate something as intelligent and elevated as underground railroad, unless you have all the critics who are like, this is it. Right. You know what I mean?

Or else it's just no one knows what to do with it or where it goes. I think, you know, because we are still such a divisive. I'll just say country I'm not going to speak about the rest of the world and we're even and we are in an even more divisive place and say where we were it's horrendous

you know before from Underground Railroad I think because we just cannot look at stories as American stories if they're predominantly black people in them are predominantly white people in them they're predominantly Latin

or whatever, it's their stories. You know, and we're all guilty of it. You know, we've all bought into this construct. And so it's unfortunate because, like you said, someone like Barry Jenkins, who is so brilliant. And it's not really just so much brilliant, like smart. Just his taste is brilliant. And you just look at his film making.

Yeah. Like, let's just, like, take the words out of it. Yeah. But the choices that he's making and why he's making those choices is so fascinating. And when you talk to Barry, the thing that I love most, like, I would have to pull myself off the phone every time I talk to Barry because you can't help but lean in. The way he tells a story, even if it's not a story for television or film, just telling you a story is so engaging. and forces you to lean in. And I never felt at any point working with Barry

that he felt like he was the smartest person in the room or made me feel like he never had to over-explain something. Yeah, yeah. Because, which I find in some conversations, because I'm not quite following what you're saying because, you know, I'm talking over me. You're talking over me. I never feel that ever when I'm speaking to Barry.

Yeah, because that movie was beautiful. It was a really, really loving set in the sense of family was so much the anchor of the story. Yeah. And so everyone involved, and it starts with Barry. It starts at the top. So that energy just was. It really does with the director. Yeah.

Huh. Yeah, it was within all of them. I mean, we were working and shooting in really small places, like the family apartment was an actual brownstone that we were in, whereas normally, especially when you're going to have a scene with eight people in the room, you're going to build that set, especially when, but no, Barry was like I wanted to, if you could cut the screen and smell it, it would smell like New York. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So you won the big prize. I won the big prize. Yeah. Yeah, that's what they say. You've won a lot of prizes. Yeah, you know, it's funny. I was doing some press for Caut Stealing last week. And in one of the interviews, they said, so did you know that that year you were the most awarded actor, you know?

Yeah. And I was like, we're not just talking about black actors, right? Or we're talking about all the actors. And they said, yeah. And I just learned that, like last week. You know, that was a real interesting ride for me to be in this business. As long as I had been in this business, I'd never experienced the campaign run. Oh, right.

So I really did, had no... No idea what, how it resulted or what you had to do. Yeah, oh, yeah. That's, it's fucking work. Yeah. And I was shooting Watchmen, so I was working Monday through Friday. I'd get on a plane Friday night to go promote. Saturday and Sunday, screening here, screening there.

Which movie, Bill Street? To promote Bill Street. Like, the first part of shooting Watchmen, it was... Yeah, sure, it said. Yeah, so it was work. It's work, and sometimes you've got to buy them presents. Well, with the Golden Globe, you know, it's insane. But prior to that, I had won Emmys, still, that television campaigning, the film, that's

just another beast. Yeah. That is a whole other beast that had my head spinning. And one time I looked up, and I had literally, between shooting the show Watchman and promoting Bill Street, I looked up and I had worked like 21 days straight. And that at that point, your body tells you, I'm out. Yeah, yeah, it's done. I'm done. Yeah, yeah.

But 21's pretty good. Yeah. I just did like a few weeks for, like, I have an HBO special out. and it was in a animated movie and, you know, a couple other things. You know, we're ending this show. And after four weeks, I was just like, all right, what's going to happen, it's going to happen. Yeah, I need that Saturday or at least just Sunday. I need one day to...

Because there's a repetition to it. Yeah, to recharge, to sleep, to not talk. Yeah, yeah. You know, and you don't realize until you don't have that, how much you need it. Yeah, you burn out. Yeah, the repetition is. what gets you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because it's very hard to... And then to be interesting. That's right. The acting really comes into play when you're

getting that same question for the 40th time. Yeah. And the enthusiasm that people have when they ask that question, like it's the first time it was asked. I know. So... It's kind of... Interesting. Yeah, that's a diplomatic word. Yeah. Well, no, you've done an amazing work. And I know you've been, you know, very public about your son's passing. And, you know, I've talked a bit about grief on here because my partner, Lynn, died quickly and tragically. And it seems that what I realized for myself, before having known what you'd gone through and was different, is that there is not really a kind of public conversation that makes grief and the experience of it, no matter what the cause of it, kind of just a human.

regular thing? No. No. And it's interesting because, you know, it's one thing when, you know, it's a parent that's grown old. Right, sure. Something like that. Yeah, you're kind of happy. It's like, okay, you've done enough.

You've done, yeah. You did it. Yeah. But the whole that is left. Yeah. when I speak to other people who've shared the same experience that I have, and I'm speaking to them, and they're like 20 years from it, it never gets refilled, you know, and you just, it softens at times.

I've learned most, the thing that's most clear to me is that that expression mutually exclusive I don't really exist in that space. You know, like literally sadness and happiness is always working in concert within me all the time. I mean, I can literally be... Always or just after his death. After Ian's death. Yeah, after.

Ian, I say, peaceed out. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, like, I can have a guttural, laugh and literally it'll end up being a cry or I can have moments where I'm talking to Ian and I'm like all right that was a good one yeah and then and and and and feel the joy that he always gives me yeah and then at the same time just miss him so much yeah you know and How did you deal with the unanswered questions? I'm always dealing with them.

You know, I don't, I, sometimes it's just accepting the things that you can't change. You know, like the serenity prayer. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I will say that. I have such an amazing support team, you know, from my mother to my dear friends and who are all, you know, grieving as well. Sure. You know, not the same as me, but I also realize it's a very unhealthy thing to compare grief. I used to have Kleenex here.

Hold on. I used to have them right here. You know what? I have some in my purse. I do. That's another thing that I've learned. I always have that. Yeah, I never had tissue in my purse all the time.

Yeah. Now I always do. Yeah, like the only reason I brought it up at all is because of the, it seems that you find it important to have a conversation about it. I think there's no other. way for when you're in the public's eye and you have you don't have

the blessing of mourning or grieving with your family. Yeah. You know this there is that moment of you got 24 hours with the news you can't stop the police right from

jumping the story. Yeah and so I tried to stay off of the internet and all that stuff because you know that someone is going to say something that is going to send you. And I had a moment, I don't know how I ended up something coming across my phone. Yeah.

Somebody was saying that I guess wants to call themselves a journalist that they were saying, you know, they were looking at Ian's post and saying that if the family had been paying attention, they would have been able to stop. And that just killed you. Just infuriated me, you know, that how dare you? How dare you make assumptions about what's happening in our home, in our lives? And how the amount of humility that people don't have is mind-blowing. Yeah, they're predatory cowards in terms of information. So I just started leaning into all of. of the good energy that was coming towards me and surrounding me and, you know, made the decision

that, you know, my team is like, you're going to have to say something. You're going to have to. And I'm like, as Ian used to say, with potty training, tomorrow, I'll do it. I'll do it soon. And then I knew that I needed to have that first public conversation with someone I trusted. And so that's how Robin Roberts was that person I reached out to her and said, you know, can I do this with you? And we had a tearful moment and she was like absolutely.

And, you know, and she took care of me. She made sure that I didn't have to come into the studio. Yeah. We went someplace where it's just she and I speaking. And the response to people leaning into, although it's sad, but that they share something with me grief. Right.

You know, we all share a smile. Yeah. We all share love, and I put that in air quotes. Yeah. But we don't, we all, and we all eventually at some point are going to have a relationship with grief. Yeah. And, but we don't talk about it, as you said. People retreat from it.

They retreat from it. And also, I think that what happens is what I found in a different situation is that it's not even, it's not like a hunger, but it, it, it's not. It brings people together in a way that is so specific. And in your situation, people who deal with mental illness, people who deal with the kind of loss you had, people who deal with these unanswered questions about the nature of other people or the nature of their pain or the nature of how to frame that, that any time that a community can come together around something tragic like that, you know that it's a common story. Absolutely. I think one of the things that we've always, until recently, when a commercial or ad or something was what's talking about depression, it would always look like a person that presents very sad. And so I am living knowing that that's not what's not what. But, you know, as I'm, you know, we're going through, you know, Ian's depression. Yeah.

And this is the first time I'm talking about it. But as we were living it, it was just always so amazing how Ian still would lead with joy. Yeah. Even when, you know, we would, and only those close Ian's father and myself. Yeah. And, you know, my sister and close friends of Ian's, and not even all of his friends were aware of the depression. Right. And it's just such, it's just so irresponsible as human beings in the medical profession to present depression as something that looks like people walking around sad.

Yeah. Because that's not only how it looks. Yeah, because it's a battle. It's a battle, absolutely. And, you know, the, you know, leading with joy, I mean, you know, that's the fight from within. Yeah. And then when, you know, when you're sitting by yourself or whatever, you know, it's a constant battle against something that, you know, obviously becomes uncontrollable. Yeah.

Did you, was there a point where, was he trying to do medicine and stuff? Yes, there was a point, but, you know, there was a period of time of just doing the therapy, going to the psychiatrists and not wanting to give in to medication. And I think probably a lot of it is seeing how so many people. were when they were on it how just kind of and he's a creative guy creative and

I do know that if he started the medication sooner there would not have all of the music that he wrote all of the paintings that he would not have done them

I don't I'm not going to be a person to sit here and I feel like it's a dangerous place to go to say if this if Ian

it stayed on medication that it would have been a different result I don't I don't believe that I don't this is the result I know everything that we did everything that he did

he had stopped smoking stop you know just everything working on the depression and you know at one point he said, Mom, I'm just so tired of talking. And seeing that pain in your child

that is working to beat depression, you know, whatever beat depression is, you know. You know, it's really, really, really, you know, you feel helpless. Yeah, yeah.

As a parent, Because as a parent, you want to be able to provide help. Help. You're trying to, you know, and what's helpful for you is not helpful for the next person. So we're always, when it comes to mental illness especially, you know, it's a, unfortunately, unfortunately, it is a. Like trying on clothes. Does this fit? Looking for something to work.

Looking for something to work. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And like now, do you, is there some sort of path towards acceptance? Um, yes, but I still, you know, I just miss him so much. And I don't know that, like, there are moments that I feel in. But because I miss him so much, his physical presence, you know, when that's the person you talk to every day. and or the person

that you want to hear there what would your commentary be on this yeah I I don't have that it's irreplaceable

you know do you still talk to them I do I do I do I do it's so hard yeah

so there's no So there's no plan. There's nothing for someone to say, this is what you're supposed to do to accept what fate had in store, you know. Yeah, I think there are things that say that, but I don't know how good, unless you're a deep believer. Right. You know. And, you know, a bit of me, like, I feel like if I didn't have, and maybe this is. my own mental shit, that if I didn't have this sadness, then I'd be scared.

Right. Yeah. Because then that would mean that I, Ian, is not my world. Right. You know, then I was not honest to myself or to him. Yeah. Well, you said something somewhere that I thought was kind of amazing, which is that grief is love that doesn't have anywhere to go.

Yes. I can't remember who actually said that. but my aunt, and I say my play aunt, I've known her, my mother and her have been friends ever since they were in the fourth grade. She had given her a card that said that. Yeah. And my mom gave it to me.

Yeah. And it just really stuck with me because it gave me words to verbally express how I'm feeling. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that with your work and with, you know, honoring his memory by, you know, sharing it, it's just, it's like I think that it can't be. I'm sorry. It's okay. Talked about enough that, you know, this is a disease, you know. Exactly. And that it's not, it's not something you can will yourself out of. honestly mark i think that's the biggest stigma is that people can't look at mental health as a disease yeah like you can if if if someone has let's just say cancer yeah and they

whatever drugs or whatever put them into remission yeah there's and then you have someone else that has cancer and they do all the drugs and they don't go in the... So what's the difference? You know what I mean? You know, of someone that's using all of the therapy tools.

Yeah, yeah. With all of the... All the different ways. All the different therapies. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just, I know that Ian is tired. Yeah. You know, and I know that there is a part of him

that looked at people much older than him still fighting that battle and losing it. Yeah. That hadn't, I'm sure, made an impression on him. Yeah. And I just feel like, you know, when it's just, you know, talking about it, I think if anything, that whether it seems impossible to have a sort of deep acceptance of tragedy, you know, in your own life, but I do think that making it, you know, demystifying it and accepting the illness and that, you know, this is an illness that happens to a lot of people. And like you said, some people, you know, can get through it, kind of.

Some people don't. That's the only thing you can do. And honestly, Mark, for one, thank you for, you know, making the space safe, you know, for me to talk and that this was not what we who were having this interview for but I think a big part of me just because it's Ian is my heart yeah we're in this cancel culture and that I have been so thoughtful

to be very selective with when I speak who I'm speaking to because people are just waiting to cancel somebody or to take what someone says and pick it apart and say what a person really meant. You know, I mean, you even see

they even look at people's body language and say this is what this person means when this couple holds each other like so, you know, I'm like, don't fuck with Ian. Yeah. So that's part of me, the reason why I'm very selective when I'm speaking.

Sure. Yeah. And also just stay away from that shit. Yeah. That part. Yeah. That part. Because it's just there's, it's, it's part of that sort of mania that we talked

about at the beginning. Yeah. There's just this frenzy to create garbage at the, at the cost of people's feelings, their hearts, their lives. Right. Just, and people, nobody's do it. Who are these fucking people? Yeah, yeah.

Keyboard gangsters. Yeah. Yeah, you got, I try to stay as far away from that. Wait for me, yeah. Oh, yeah, I had, you know, you know, after Lynn died, there were monsters, you know, saying, you know, like, Mark killed his girlfriend. You know, like, it's like, who sits there and does that? You know, like, diminish, it's inhuman. It's inhuman.

But you can't expect humanity from this monster that we carry around with us. Yeah. Well, I'm sorry if I got you two down. No, no. that's the thing like what I said before. Happiness and sadness are always working in

and I really mean it when I say in concert because if I don't embrace it as in concert You know what's weird I just realized about that is that it does

that happiness and sadness in concert because once you have a foundation of grief that on some level you understand the battle of, you know, of non-clinical sadness. You know what I mean?

Yeah. And I guess that is the human spirit is to keep, you know, that balance. Yeah. Because what else are you going to do? Everyone's going to go do this. What else is you going to do? Yeah. That's when one of my eyes was like, Mom, I just sometimes, I just don't know what to do.

She said, you do what you're doing. You're here. I get that so much. And because, like, I don't think I really look to my parents for advice much after a certain point because they weren't those kind of parents. And there's some day, and I'm 61, there's some days there's like, would someone please just tell me what to do? Do. Just tell me what to do. Yeah. And that's a hard thing to sit with.

Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, we could talk about the wine. We could. We could. Would that be a good transition for you to go out on? I mean, are you good?

Absolutely. I mean, it's Ian's name is right there in the middle. Shit. How did you get involved with wine? Ian. Really? I mean. He was a wine guy?

Ian is a, um, is a, um, loves a story and loves, it has great taste. Yeah. You know? Yeah. So when you're an artist, like he is, and you discover new things, you want to be the one to share it. And so he would share wines with me, you know, like he just,

and I think a lot of it came from being a chef. Yeah. You know, he just, the pairing of food. He was a chef? Yeah, yeah, of all, of so many things. He's a chef, a musician. I mean, he was even in one night in Miami, an audition for the role. But I digress.

Oh, so with the wine, Ian introduced me to orange wine about six years ago. I've never had any desire to be in this industry, in the hospitality. Well, no, let me take that back because I did have a restaurant, but never to actually sell a brand. A brand, you know, of wine. You know, like everyone that you speak to that's in the business is always like, If you want to lose money, that's the business you get into. And so in this space of trying to understand what this new relationship is with Ian, you know, I'm looking for, I was always looking for ways to, when you're talking to your friends and they're talking about what their children are doing now and I have old stories. How do I create new stories?

Yeah, oh, good, yeah. So it was like, we're going to do an orange wine. Yeah. And so that's kind of how the birth of me and you came. Yes, it's spelled, M-I-A-N-U, and you pronounce it, me and you. Yeah. And Ian's name is in the middle because when you put the M-N-U on the end. Yeah.

And is it like small batches or how does it work? Yeah, this is self-finance. Okay, doing that. I'm the vineyard. Or I'm procuring the grapes. So, yeah. I have people like, oh, my God, you're going to send me some? I'm like, absolutely not.

I am not. But it is available at me and you wines.com. There you go. Yeah. There's no samples. No samples for the press. No, some samples for the press. Oh, good, good.

But very smart samples. And how's it landing? It's landing where we're almost sold out. Oh, good. That's pretty exciting. And then you do another batch? Yes, and now I'm in the business part of it. You know what I'm saying?

It was more just a way to put something in a bottle that was the closest, for people who did not get the opportunity to be blessed with Ian's presence, to taste something and get an idea of just how whimsical he can be, how tasty he can be, how tasty he can be. how artistic he can be. The label is very artisanal. It's like a canvas. Oh, nice. And so I'm just doing that more just, this is Ian and I, creating this together. I love it, yeah. And then now I have to think about the business part of it.

We can make it bigger? Yeah, how do we sustain? Yeah. How do we, are, am I going to look at a different, you know, looking at a wine or different grapes? Is that fun? Most part it is. For the most part it is. But it's a little terrifying because I had to enter back into the social media space.

And so I kind of slowly started doing it, knowing that the wine launch was coming up. And that's... You can also have someone do that for you. Filter it. I'm a control enthusiast. I've never heard of put that way. I like that. That sounds like something you can put on a business card.

Regina King, control enthusiast at your service. Yeah. All right. Well, it's a beautiful thing that you're doing. And it's great talking to you. It's been great talking to you too. What are you going to do next? I understand that I'm lucky enough to get in here.

Yeah. Well, you know, I got to do. do another season of that show with Owen Wilson. And, you know, I just put out a special and I'm, you know, starting to build another bunch of comedy of some kind. I want to try and take it somewhere different. Yeah. I feel like I've said all I've got to say on some level.

And I want to try to say something different. Something different. I was about to say, say something different. Yeah. It's not every, you don't feel like you've said everything you have to say. You just want to say something different. Yeah. Yeah.

Some part of me thinks I can lighten up a bit. Yeah. I mean, I don't know. I feel like, and maybe again, it's just me. To me, when the humor is rooted in like the real shit, it's funnier. For sure. Yeah. I mean, I did a whole, my last special was from bleak to dark, but there was about a half hour about grief.

You know, wow, I have to check that out. You should. It's an HBO special, and it was about, you know, finding. some way of coping and dealing with what happened and making it a public thing to release some of that because like the sadness is real is unavoidable

but they're even inappropriate jokes around it that you can have with yourself that you know that other people who've been through it can share it but people who haven't are like oh shit right but those are those are important yeah yeah well it's highly yeah well it was great talking to you thank you it was great talking to you thanks for doing it okay uh i know it it was it was real that was that was real stuff there uh you can go see caught

stealing tomorrow it opens everywhere and check out her new wines at me and you dot com that's m ianu dot com hang out for a minute folks composed in any condition confident on any terrain envied everywhere boasting an unrivaled combination of premium technology inspired design and exhilarating performance the range rover sport redefines what a luxury SUV can be build yours today at range river dot ca what's better than a well marbled rib eye sizzling on the barbecue a well marbled rib eye sizzling on the barbecue that was carefully selected by an Instacart shopper and delivered to your door. A well marbled ribby you ordered without even leaving the kitty pool. Whatever groceries your summer calls for, Instacart has you covered. Download the Instacart app and enjoy $0 delivery fees on your first three orders. Service fees, exclusions, and terms apply. Instacart. Groceries that over deliver.

Hey, people on Monday's show, a return guest, Tim Heideker. He was on an early episode by himself, And then once again with Eric Werheim, now we're having one last talk in the garage. I did cry once on stage during the music. It's so vulnerable in me. Yeah. Yeah, I just feel like, and I think that, I think that doing the music and sort of moving through that fear, it's going to help my stand up in a way. Because I'm just tired of the patter. Yeah.

There's something about like, wondering what, I'm so clear about why I'm doing it for, for myself, but I don't know, I don't know how close I am to understand if what I'm doing, what, if I'm doing it for the right reasons for my audience. Yeah, that's the trick. Yeah, but how much of that lives in our head anyways? And, you know, like, and in the comments, like, I don't know, like, I, I'd worry about that too, like, oh, let's indulge Mark. Right.

With his little music dream. Yeah. And certainly, growing up, seeing comics that do music, I'm like, oh, fuck, what's he doing? Yeah. It didn't go well for Kenneson. Right. You know, he was pretty serious about it. Any comic that's music seriously.

I know. It's very hard to watch, to frame it correctly. Yeah. Even if they're amazing. Right. You know? Yeah. And it's a shame because I think we all come from, like, growing up wanting to just do stuff.

Yeah. And not thinking about the genre and how it's going to be classified at Blockbuster Video or whatever. I guess. But like when Eddie Murphy did, My Girl wants to party all the time. Oh, it's terrible. I think. Yeah. I'll agree with that.

Yeah. But it's, it all comes down to, if you're not doing it to sell records. Yeah. And you're doing it earnestly to, you know, express yourself. Yeah. Then it's legit. I think that's where I'm coming from. I have things about, I want to say, that don't belong in my comedy.

Yeah, I haven't figured out how to write a song yet. Yeah. I think I've probably written some, but I have to, like, find them. Does that make sense? Yeah, I mean, either, John Lennon says, like, keep it short and make it short and make it rhyme. Did he? Yeah, I think so.

But he also has all those chords. You have the Beatles chords. Yeah, I don't, I'm still strictly a one, four, five. No, those are good, too. With an occasional. Those are the catchy ones. With an occasional two. Two minor.

Yeah, two minor, right, exactly, to make it pop. Yeah. That's Monday, which is also the 16th anniversary of our very first episode. Wow. Wow. How did that happen? Also, a reminder before we go, this podcast is hosted by ACAST, and here's a little jigsaw puzzle. You know,

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