WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1679 - Tracy Letts

Episode Date: September 18, 2025

Tracy Letts and Marc have remained friends since meeting each other when Tracy was first on the show in 2018. Now, with Marc wrapping up the podcast, Tracy returns to the garage for a talk about the importance of art, self-expression, and taking inspiration where you can get it. Tracy also investigates Marc’s reasoning for ending the show and he recounts his experience being back home in Oklahoma while making Sterlin Harjo’s new show, The Lowdown. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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that was carefully selected by an Instacart shopper and delivered to your door. A well-marbled ribeye you ordered without even leaving the kitty pool. Whatever groceries your summer calls for, Instacart has you covered. Download the Instacart app and enjoy $0 delivery fees on your first three orders. Service fees, exclusions, and terms apply. Instacart, groceries that over-deliver. Hey folks, we already had this episode in the can and then the Jimmy Kimmel news broke last night. Jimmy Kimmel has been muzzled and taken off the air by his network, ABC, who is buckling and appeasing

Next Star Media Group, who own many affiliates that carry the show and threaten to preempt Kimmel at the strong suggestion of FCC Chair Brendan Carr. Because of a fucking joke, Carr is one of the architects of Project 2025. Next Star is on the verge of a massive merger with their competitor and wants the Trump administration in their corner. All that said, this is how authoritarianism works in the U.S. currently, and this is a major attack on free speech. So all of you free speech warriors, we need your voices. If you were at all serious about fighting for free speech, this is your moment. We all have to stand up.

This isn't Twitter. This is the U.S. government. And if they can do it to Kimmel, they can do it to anyone. Okay, let's do the show that was already in the can. Lock the gate! all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck nix what's happening i'm mark merrin this is my podcast welcome to it who how's it going man how's it going out there so today i talked to uh tracy let's and look i he's he was on in 2018 he's one of

the only guys who's been on this show that i uh have a friendship with very smart guy great actor great playwright great guy and we just kind of talked you know he's uh he's in the new sterlin harjo project the lowdown but uh we talked a bit about that but you know we just kind of kicked it around about the end of the podcast about our age about art about politics about uh you know work ethic i don't know it was one of those ones where some of these shows as we head in towards the end uh are going to be me catching up with people I like and who I want to talk to again. And Tracy and I, we talk off the mics, but it's always exciting, like Tom Sharpling as well,

to kind of get on the mics and do the thing. Here's some news for anyone who wants full access to all WTF episodes, even after the podcast is done. All WTF Plus material is now hosted by Supercast. If you're already a WTF plus subscriber, either at the Fulmerin level or the, WTF archives level, you don't have to do anything. Your subscriptions are automatically transferred over. Make sure you check your email for more details directly from Supercast. If you're not already signed up, this Supercast subscription gets you every single episode of WTF ad-free as well as all the bonus material we've ever done. That's almost 300 additional episodes. Go to the link in this

episode description or go to WTFpod.com and click on the WTF Plus tab to subscribe. And the documentary about me, Are We Good, opens on October 3rd in New York and Los Angeles with special screenings around the country on October 5th and October 8th. Go to are we good Marin.com to see where it's playing and get tickets. And finally, the Kickstarter pre-sale for our graphic novel, WTF, is a podcast, written and illustrated by Box Brown, is going on now. go to z2comcom slash wTF so in sad news or i it's sad but i don't know that it's tragic because he was an old man who had a good life and lived his a righteous life um robert redford has passed away and robert redford look you know i don't know what we take for movie stars right now. I don't know, you know, what show business is like right now in the sense

that it's certainly not the same as back in the day. But I got to be honest with you, Robert Redford was one of the greatest movie stars ever. And look, I'm not alone in saying that, but just one of the, just a guy that knew exactly who he was, what he was doing, what his strength, swear as an actor and he he was just great he was gorgeous he he held the screen he could act and he was funny i mean you really think about some of those movies i mean just the best one of the best i mean what did i see i saw some weird 70s movie when i was very young and I didn't all I remember was it was in 1970 so and I think I saw it when I when it came out little boss and big halsey it was this it was a motorcycle movie it was a weird movie for him to do he'd already

done Butch and Sundance and he'd already done barefoot in the park downhill racer that's another one after Butch and Sundance which was I think one of the best movies ever he did downhill racer which is an interesting movie about a ski racer that many people haven't seen. And then he did tell him Lily Boys here, which I don't remember seeing. But Little Foss and Big Hossie was a motorcycle movie. And I just remember seeing it when I was a very little kid.

And Robert Redford's character was always walking around with a toothbrush in his mouth. And somehow he made it cool because I thought it was cool because I remember, like, I'm going to walk around with a toothbrush in my mouth. And I did that. I don't think it was very cool. Neither for him or me,

but for some reason, in my young brain, I thought that was, yeah, that was cool. And then Jeremiah Johnson just rewatched that recently. What a great movie. This guy could carry a movie effortlessly. Oh, I remember the candidate, too. I'm just kind of going through him. That's an interesting movie about politics, the way we were, of course.

The Sting, come on. Come on, the Sting. What are you kidding me? And what about the Great Waldo Pepper? It's a great movie. And how about all the president's men? Awesome. Brewbaker?

Remember Brewbaker? The natural? come on the natural I can't believe that's 1984 again the movies I rewatch that Robert Redford was in where are all the President's men

the natural I'll watch the sting I'll watch Bush Cassie and the Sundance kid again and again and he directed the Malagra Beanfield's work good director ordinary people

this guy was what is great about what is Hollywood I mean Robert Redford will definitely be missed and remembered. And I would go watch any of those movies. If you haven't seen Butch casting in The Sundance Kid in a while, just watch it. I mean, Newman and Redford

together in both The Sting and that movie, it just doesn't happen like that anymore. And maybe it does, but not at that level, not at that stature. I mean, these guys, and maybe I'm an old man, but fucking just real movie stars. Just, I, I, don't know there's a gravitas to it i i don't know what to tell you i'm sad he's dead but he's one of those guys where it's like same with jean hackman especially the earlier stuff watch that work because it fucking holds up and it's just it's stunning it's just it's totally entertaining it's it's just beautiful all the president's men i might watch that tonight oh my god i want to watch a robert redford movie right now you know what i was watching uh yesterday

I started watching that Charlie Sheen dock because I couldn't just I couldn't stay away I could not stay away from it I was curious the whole story and they seemed to be giving it but some of you remember I told this story when he went through that period

and you get the backstory in the dock which I didn't get when he snapped and went into that mania after he got fired from two and a half men and he started the tiger blood winning thing and it was a very public spectacle, a very public train wreck. But I didn't know the back style, but I do know that I was

pulled in by a promoter who I knew, who I've worked with at Live Nation. And he sort of said, look, I don't know if this is right or wrong, but Charlie Sheen's going to tour this insanity. And I was thinking, oh, it's definitely wrong. But look, I mean, if he's in a state where he thinks that's a good idea and you're going to monetize it. or what am I going to do to stop you? But it doesn't, no, it all felt very not good. But he said he needs writers. He wants to put together a stage show.

And I'm like, I'm not that guy. And he's like, well, you just meet with him? I'm like, I don't know. And then I thought like, yeah, why not go meet Charlie Sheen? So I met him in the middle of that at the four seasons. I sat with him in a suite and, you know, he told me what he wanted to do. And I told him some ideas about some sketches or how to frame the stage show or whatever. And I was like, all right, that's that.

you know he's definitely out of control right now in a way i don't quite understand but um but uh maybe i hopefully he doesn't want me to do it but he did he wanted me to come out to his house and with a bunch of other writers i a couple days later so i went out to brentwood or wherever the hell it was and i just remember all i was looking forward to is i heard he had a lot of good cigars and and and i got a cold that day so he had this amazing humidor and i couldn't even taste a cigar and i felt sick and there was a whole fucking thing going on over there they had screens there was a few other writers everyone was trying to put together this show for you know just crazy charlie in the middle of this fucking mania and uh i just i was there one day and i'm like i'm out it just it was felt

did not feel correct and when you watch the dock it was literally he was out of control on substances but also was jacked to the gills on steroids and really hitting the wall. But I mean, you know, they wanted me to tour with the show. I'm like, I'm not doing that. I actually told him Kirk Fox would like to do it. So I got Kirk roped into that thing. But he did all right with it. But I just thought the whole thing was a sad spectacle of somebody that might not survive whatever this was. But the spectacle of this proverbial, is that the word I want? Kind of a mythic, you know, fuck up. I mean, Charlie,

machine was synonymous was like with out of control you know his whole career you know he had been getting in trouble for drugs for uh some domestic violence business some uh more drugs women it was just he was the baddest of boys and what i noticed in the dock was that people were so excited there was a certain type of person just wanted to watch this train wreck that knew the guy was in trouble, but he was going down in flames and he was, you know, going down shooting and it was entertaining and a little menacing. And there was a type of person that was just like, go Charlie, go burn it down, baby. It was just this mass of a type of of anger and nihilism to seek that kind of entertainment. Like to go see Charlie fucking on fire. And maybe. And,

maybe on his last legs. People were just cheering him on. A lot of people. And I realized, like, this is part of the core of why Trump is president. That there is this idea of, like, you know, fuck everything, burn it all down. You know, who knows what the fuck this guy's going to do, but I'm not going to miss it. It's sort of like that guy I talked about a while back when I was touring the special. And I was, I think, I feel like it was Skokie or one of a, you know, it was a bluer city, maybe a bluer state.

And I did my show. And if you watched the special, all the stuff I had said about Trump and, and where we are politically. And a guy came up to me after the show and he said, I think I was the only Trump supporter here. And I said, well, did I get it right? And that guy said, yeah, man, he's crazy. And I didn't understand. Like, how do you argue with that? And what does that mean?

Like, everything I was saying did not have. great implications but this guy was there for the fire he was there for the train wreck he was there to burn it all down he was there for the nihilistic entertainment factor of watching a dude that gives zero fucks about anybody but himself who is a lying sack of shit who is erratic and dangerous and a fucking toxic bully who's more than willing to micromanaged a presidency to the point of shitting on celebrities, comedians, TV hosts, anybody. And this guy was like, fucking, yeah, man, it's just, you got to love it, man, it's just fucking crazy.

You don't know what's going to happen. And I think you can kind of see the seeds of it in the frenzy around Charlie Sheen almost dying for entertainment. But yeah, that's what I noticed. I don't know if you watched it. Did you watch it? So listen, Tracy Letts is a brilliant guy, brilliant actor, brilliant playwright, and a friend of mine. And as we kind of head towards the end here, I really wanted to get him back in here to talk.

He is on that Sterlin Harjo show, The Lowdown, which premieres September 23rd on FX. And I love Sterling Harjo. I think Reservation Dogs is still one of the best TV shows to happen in the last 20, 30 years. And I got the privilege of working with Sterling on Reservation Dogs. And now Tracy worked with them as well. So we'll talk about that. We talk about a lot of things. And it's always great to hang out with Tracy Letts.

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Service fees exclusions and terms apply. Instacart. Groceries that over deliver. I have actually somehow successfully been somewhat detaching from the compulsive news reading. Good. Have you? In fits and starts. Yeah.

Because I'm not sure, you know, after a certain point, you're like, well, this is the way it is. Yeah. It's not like something's miraculously going to change the narrative. And also, what are you going to do? do about it. Well, that's a good question, Tracy. What are you going to do about it? You. I'm going to vote. Yeah. I'm going to give money to people I think can help. Yeah. And I'm going to participate in my art and craft. Yeah. And I guess that's sort of what I'm wondering about. Like, you got to, you're writing a thing?

You know, the truth is, I just don't know, I don't know what else to do. I'm not, no, I know. I'm 60 years old. Sure. I'm not going to, you know, what good does it do me to get out in the street with a sign or, you know, go down to the courthouse and self-immolate or, you know. You're too young for that. All the people out there with signs are the same ones that were out there in 68. You know, I truly ask myself.

Yeah, me too. What can you do? What, you know, you like to think you have more power than you do. don't really. And also there's this idea that like I'm kind of locked into about, you know, permitted resistance that I believe that in an authoritarian structure that, you know, especially with an impulsive autocrat, that, you know, a lot of it is going to keep happening, but very little is going to get through the noise.

And on some level, they're just sort of like, all right, let them, let them run around with the signs. Right. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. No, they'll shut down anything that's a legitimate threat to their... Or they'll militarize everything and people will just be afraid to go out with the science. But what I do, like I wonder that too.

So, you know, I recently kind of shot my mouth off here and there. And some of it went viral and it was good. It was, you know, I did it for democracy, but I did it for the comics. But I also did it to promote my special. But there's a hunger for it. For shooting your mouth off? For people that can frame it properly and have the gravitas to shoot their mouth off, and if you're fortunate enough to have some sort of cosmic timing to where something gets through the fucking noise, it is inspiring to people.

I think so. And I think it takes, I think that if people, because, right, the next idea of like, what can I do, I'm doing all I can, there's this, it's not futility, but, but on some way, level, we're living in this fucking thing. And we can only do what we can. And on some level, you have to accept that this is the reality we're living in. And if you want to, you know, tear yourself up about it every day, you can. But as I say on stage recently, I'm like, if you think about it, there's probably someone in Hungary with your same job.

And they're getting by okay. Yeah. Well, so how can you tell the difference between those people who maybe inspire you or give you some hope. Yeah. And those people who are just monetizing opinion, right, for takes or clicks or whatever. I mean, yeah, there's a lot of that. Right?

I don't necessarily believe that I know anything about Bill Maher's ethos. I don't know what he really believes in. I know what he says to get people to click on his shit. Sure, yeah. Well, there's some selfless cats who are still making a living. And on both sides, right? This is not a partisan person. say, right?

It's on both sides. It's like, I don't know what the fuck you're, you know, you're saying a thing because. Yeah. Because other, because it's worth a lot of money. I mean, Marjorie Taylor Green ran a gym, right? And now she's worth $10 million because she's a loudmouth. Yeah. Right?

Yeah, where does the belief end and the grift start? Mm-hmm. Yeah. I get that. Yeah. But as an artist, though, like to me, like, because I don't remember the last time we talked, but when it comes when like I feel like playwriting is a noble pursuit an elevated occupation I do too one that I believe has has meaning and purpose I do too so how's that going

it's hard it's really hard it's hard to write a play so where does that fall into the menu of reasons to feel futility. I went to the museum to the Art Institute in Chicago recently. I was talking about that with Kit. Yeah. Went there. First time I had been there in 10 years. Yeah.

And it's an amazing museum. Not only the work they have in it, but architecturally. It's just so sort of constantly surprising. And the way it's curated, you're looking at an amazing piece of art. And then you can just see around the corner into it. another room where there's another amazing piece of art. Is it an old building? The modern wing is new.

Okay. And, well, new, newish, in the last 15 years or whatever. And it's a gorgeous piece of architecture. Yeah. But there were so many people in there looking at the art. And some of them were kids. Yeah. And some of them were college kids.

And some of them were like fat, white-haired Iowa farmer dudes who were being dragged in there and by their wives or whatever, but they're walking through that place looking at the art. Yeah. That, that's the most hopeful I've felt in a long time. You know, there's just the fact that people are still interested in taking it in and looking at something 100 years old,

400 years old, and seeing something in it that's confusing them, inspiring them, yeah, depressing them, whatever. You know, it's just like, well, if we still got this. Yeah, right. You feel like if we still got this, we're okay. If there's still a desire, even on behalf of the most detached or seemingly uninterested, that makes them feel like, well, we have to go to the museum. Yeah.

You know, not knowing why, but it's like we're going to the city, we go to the museum. That's right. And that's still in place, you're saying. It is still in place. It's in place until they start, you know, stripping the art off the walls. Well, they're just doing that in federal buildings. they're not doing it to a city-owned museums or privately funded museums yet not yet but they're definitely doing it yeah it's kind of crazy yeah it is it's crazy i mean it's shit we haven't seen

in our lifetimes you will not here right not here so when you go to the museum uh what do you gravitate towards like what do you feel like you need to see like i like i went like when i first went to, like, I like the art and I like painting and I can let it in and I can be moved. I don't always know how to contextualize things, but I know that it's on this wall and the Prado or whatever that it's a thing and I should give it some time. I think context helps. It's not necessary. But there are certain things that I, if I go to a museum, I find comforting. Like it used to be when I was younger, probably because of my mom. It was the impressionist. Right.

And that was comforting. And then you kind of branch out from there, more modern art, older art, whatever. But I don't, I personally don't know what it does to me, but I know that it's important to me. Yeah. I guess I like the stuff that I don't understand how it's operating on me. Yeah. Like Rothko. Ah, it's my favorite.

I don't know how, I don't, what is this alchemy? It's my, he's my favorite. Have you been to the chapel? Yeah. In Houston? Yeah. And then you just sit there going like, what is, what is this doing? Right.

You just don't understand how. I think he was at the edge of the fucking abyss. And the only thing he could do not to dive into it, which he eventually did, was make those pictures. Yeah. I think it kept him out of wherever he went. But how does he know, but just putting those two bars of color on a canvas is going to move us. move us deeply, emotionally, confuse us, confound us. How does he know that?

Well, then you're assuming he's playing to the audience. I don't know that he is. I think he was looking for a truth and he had the chops to do it. I mean, it's the same with plays, isn't it? I suppose. I suppose. That's probably a good way to think about it, right? That you don't worry about playing to the audience.

Yeah. You think about what it is that. Have you seen those ones that you like, He was contracted to do a hotel lobby, the Seagram's pictures. Yeah. And this is for a public space where people are eating. Yeah. And it's the darkest fucking shit I've ever seen in my life.

They had them at the Tate in London, all of them. Yeah. And I was there. I saw those. And you're like, this is. So he's not thinking about the audience. If he is, it's fuck you. Yeah.

Because those were like purple and fucking, you know, like you were sitting in death. Yeah. So I guess that's what it comes down to. I mean, when you write a play, but you're not a, you're not, I don't, I haven't seen the minutes, but you're not an, you're not an abstract playwright. Not per se. I mean, I like a little abstraction. I like, I like when a realistic work turns, right?

When turns, becomes a little more abstract. It's like, oh, I thought I was watching a strict representation. A story. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, but wait, this isn't, now we're in a different. realm. Yeah, I love that. But like when you, because I'm just, I'm curious about this because I don't, I find it daunting. And I talked to an old friend of mine. He said he set out to be a playwright, but I don't think he would have ever been a very good playwright. And I remember I had thought of a play when I was earlier, but younger, but I didn't have the follow through. And it was, it was based on the lives of a family after the father had died in a plane crash and they had just received the black box recordings. That's all I got.

So maybe you can run with it. The family gets the black box recordings? Well, no, they got the transcript. Does that happen? I'm sure they get. Why wouldn't it? We want you to hear just exactly what was going on in the cockpit on the flight that your father died. Wouldn't they have to?

Wouldn't that be part of it? Would you want to hear that? I don't know. Sure. I mean, but, you know, like it would be maybe he said a goodbye. Why? Maybe he said, you know. Do you want to hear any black box recordings? Well, usually it's just sort of like, we have a problem.

Okay, we'll try that. We'll try that. And then nothing. I knew a guy whose dad, his job was to investigate plane crashes. Yeah. And he said that every single plane crash he ever investigated, the first people on the scene. Yeah. The scavengers.

Really? there are all you emergency vehicle show up there are already people there picking through going through the shit luggage and whatever yeah huh always i bet you that's the same as battlefields probably yeah do you remember in the in the wild bunch when uh was it struther martin and yeah they were oh i got a watch that's mine yeah but when do you when you start to do the play thing Does it build out, or do you have a story, John Ryan? It's never the same twice. It's always different.

But you as a playwright, because you do all these other things. Yeah. And do you get to a point where you're like, well, I'm taking this job, it's only for a few weeks, I'll get to the play later? Do you find that any part of acting is procrastinating? Oh, sure. Sure, I can't possibly write a play now. I've got to learn lines to order this drone strike. Because I have to believe that once you, you know, you create plays that are, you'll get the attention that you've gotten critically and you have a confidence in it, that that has to be the thing that possesses you the most, no?

Well, it's certainly the thing I kind of recognize maybe has the most value ultimately, I mean, personal value. It's like, well, this is my, this is me. Yeah, yeah, right, right, right. The other stuff is me acting. I'm translating somebody else's work. Sure. You know, I'm figuring something. I'm, I'm entertaining an audience.

I'm telling a story. Yeah. But the plays are me. That's who I am. So, yeah, and even like being at Emmy shit this weekend, you know, it's funny the people who will come up to you and you'll be at some Emmy party and there's loud music and there's people and you can't have a real conversation. Yeah.

And some people will want to sort of draw a circle around you to see. I need to tell you that Augustosage can't. This is not the place to say it, but Augustosate, you know, they want, they need you to know. Yeah. I recognize that space, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, there's a different, slightly different value system. Oh, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, and they're kind of pulling your side in this sort of like horrendous display of nothing. Yeah. Well-dressed nothingness. But everybody knows it. Right. No, but everybody knows that's what it is. I don't think anybody... I find, I was at, I didn't see you,

I went to the HBO party. Did you end up there? I was at the HBO party last night. You must have gotten there later. Because I was there earlier. I was out pretty quick. Really? Yeah.

Because that always happens, right? All I know is that Gaggins was everywhere I went. Yeah. I think he might be in my house right now. Well, he cuts a figure. It's hard not to, it's hard not to see Walton. He's having the time of his life, that guy. He is, absolutely.

I sat by him at the Emmys. He was my seat mate. Oh, how was that? Yeah, great. Yeah, he's loving it. I mean, I was surrounded by losers everywhere. You know, Kerry was losing on the left. Walton was losing on the right.

And Jason Siegel losing over there. And looking at my phone and my football team is losing. And everybody I knew was losing. I was just surrounded by losers. I try to see that on the faces of the early losers. Now they're stuck there for three hours watching. other people win. Although in Carrie's case, it's like, now I can relax, you know.

Her category was pretty early and, you know, that was sort of a surprise one. Was that the woman from the pit that won? Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, how does one take that? Was Carrie fine? It's hard to imagine being much more fine than Carrie is with that stuff.

Yeah. Really fine. That's good. Yeah. Yeah, but I got a good attitude about that. I was at the party and then I went over to the chateau because Nate, had hosted a sort of after after party there. And I felt like that one would be comedians.

Was that a scene? Was there a scene? No, there's people. I mean, you know, like the HBO thing I went because I had this special there. And the high point was that, you know, Kit is mildly obsessed, but on the verge of very obsessed with two people. David Lynch, who she cries over regularly. Right. And Colin.

He was not there. No. No. Well, arguably maybe he was. Yeah, right. I think he's everywhere now. the way that works. And Colin Farrell.

And I knew that, like, there was a good chance that Colin would probably be there. But what I didn't know, so Kit, you know, her and I go, and I'm like, I'll find him. She's like, just stop it. I don't even know if I could talk to him. She's like civilian, so it's like, you know, big fandom shit. And I see him over at the bar talking to Justin Thoreau, who I don't really know. I met him years ago. And I walk up there and I'm just getting a Diet of Coke.

And Colin's like, Mark. And I'm like, you know me? You know, like, I still have that. Like, why would he know me? Yeah, right. Turns out he's a listener. Justin remembers me. He's a listener, right?

Nice. And I see Kit hiding, hiding away. And then he walks away, and then I realized I hadn't did compliment him on his work in the penguin, which I thought was good. I go up and I say, you know, great job in the penguin. I meant to tell that to you. And then I see Kit kind of float in, you know, kind of get the courage to do it. And to me, it was fucking great. It was hilarious.

It was hilarious. And now he wants to go on a hike. Nice. Does he live here? Yeah. I have to adjust my cock. Yeah. That's staying in.

We're not cutting that out, even if you ask me to. No, you don't have to cut it out. I just had to do it. Were you sitting on it? It's just uncomfortable angle. See, if you didn't have an inversion to shorts, you wouldn't have that problem. I went out of my way to wear shorts But this is something

Like being that these are the last episodes You somehow or another Are the only person really That I have a friendship with That I met on this show I find that hard to believe Haven't you done like a thousand of these fucking things? Almost 2,000

Isn't that wild? Why me? I don't know, what do you think? I don't know, you kind of When I did the first one You kind of dared me to be your friend That's right There was a bit of a dare

on the way out the door. I was like, okay, so we had our talk. Yeah. And you said, now, we were going to see each other. We were going to be at the same event that night. We were going to be at the SAG Awards, I think. Yeah, but then I ran into you in the bathroom. But before that, as I was leaving, you said,

now if I see you at the SAG Awards tonight, are you going to snub me? And I was like, what do I look like? A guy who snubs people, I don't do that. So that night, I saw you in the bathroom, and I went out and I gave you a hug. Yeah. And a friendship was born.

That's right. But you did not adjust your cock. in that moment. I didn't identify it. That would have been an awkward first meeting post the desire to be friends

if you were like just give me a second and give you a hug my cock's in it it's the wrong direction right now. Yeah, I'm not going to snub you but I am

going to adjust my cock. I don't know, I don't, it's interesting to me because I think about it because like what I find, what I'm finding

is that like I still think I'm an outsider really because I'm not like a big, celebrity, right? So when I go out to these things last night, it was very gratifying. A lot of people were like, I'm sorry, the show's ending. But also I find that people who I've had these conversations with, they resonate with them. And they don't talk like this too often. So like, you know, when Jude Law comes up to me out of nowhere and gives me a hug and just starts telling me how it's

like, you know, things are changing as he gets older. We're surrounded by people. It's like, I'm a little more sensitive. And, you know, I care more. I'm like, wow. I, you know, I guess, he had to get that out, and I'm that guy. It's kind of nice. But for you, I don't know. Like, I think you're, you know, funny. I like the acting, everything, but I think it was the playwriting. I just, I decided that you and I would be okay as friends.

Like, you know, Josh Rowland gave me a cell number once, but I don't even think it was real. You give you a fake number? I think so. I was going to set them up with the flavored zins because I know a guy. First of all, I have a couple things. to say about all this. You say that you feel like an outsider. Don't most be, I mean, I know that, you know, Ted

Danson doesn't feel like an outsider. Right. He feels very much like an insider. Sure. Tom Hanks feels like an insider. Yeah. Well, he's like, you know, he's at the top of the insider game. Right. But aren't most people, aren't, aren't 80% of the people you might think

are insiders actually outsiders who feel like outsiders, even though you would identify them as insiders? I wonder. I mean, I think that on some level, most people in this business are mildly to extremely desperate and not sure where their next job is coming from. I think it's easy to elevate them. I still have a childish awe of actors and celebrities and, you know, people who make great things or I know from television. And now that is, you know, working up against his fact that I talk to them.

I've seen them at the grocery store or whatever. But, you know, when I get to these places, that childish awe, you know, wins out. Like I'm, you know, like I see somebody and I'm like, and I'm moving through the crowd quickly to connect. To get to them or get away from them? No, to get to them. Because I want to be like, huh? Me and you. Yeah, right.

The validation. But I guess they feel like outsiders. But I think that the people that are, you know, like, I think once you get inside, maybe it's tenue. but I do think you know you're inside. Really? Yeah. You don't think so? I don't know because I've done, I don't know, five seasons of episodic television.

You've done more than that, maybe eight, ten seasons of episodic television. Yes. You've had specials all over. You've played leads in films. You know, it's just like, I don't know how much more fucking insider it gets than that. SAG has 96% unemployment. I mean, you seem extremely. extremely successful.

A lot of outsiders. Well, for me, I judge it on like, you know, I wrote about this the other day, that, you know, if I have jealousy or I'm not grateful or I have resentment, what is it based on? And it's not, I don't want anyone else's life. Right. I don't want anyone else's lifestyle. Right. But I would like more attention.

I would like more love that I can resist. From whom? You know, the people, the more people. Because, like, I have a great audience, and I love them, and they come out and see me do it, and I'm completely comfortable with that. But there is some part of me that thinks, like, I'm for everybody. Oh. And I'm just not. And I'm okay with that.

But I just, I insist in my heart that there's more people that could use me. Man, I'm so not for everybody. Yeah. I'm really not for everybody. James Taylor and I have been working on a musical for a few years now. Yeah. And one of the first conversations we had about this was when. And I said, James, the appeal of your music is so broad.

Right. Right. You're hard pressed to find people who say, well, I fucking hate James Taylor. I mean, I'm sure they're out there, but I don't know them. Yeah, I'd like to meet a couple. The really broad. Sure. And I actually fanned my hands out like this to show, like, this is your appeal.

And then I narrowed them like this. It was like, this is my appeal. Sure. And I'm okay with that. I mean, at least I have some. This is not nil. Right. There are people who like my work and like it passionate.

Yeah. But not like James. I'm like, if we're going to work on a thing together, I think you've got to be comfortable with this being some. Knowing that I'm going to neuter your appeal. Somewhere, the truth is somewhere in between the two, right? But what is that project? I mean, how are you going to, you know, minimize James Taylor in your project? I've done it.

I've managed to do it. Congratulations. Finally, someone has stepped up and taken him off as. high horse. We had a second workshop, and I kind of felt like we were ready to go into production. I thought, oh, well, this is like a musical driven by his music. Yeah, using his songbook, though not the James Taylor story. Right.

And so we... Oh, interesting. So you're taking songs and you're building stories. Yes. The template for this might be the Bob Dylan musical girl from the North Country, which Connor McPherson directed. and adapted or wrote the original piece. And Mamma Mia, actually, which is not the Abbas story,

but uses the music of Abbas. So it's using his music, but it's an original story. So we did this workshop. We've done a couple of workshops, and the last one I thought, well, we're ready to go into production. Probably not on Broadway. We'll start somewhere. You know, we'll start at a regional theater.

Yeah. I've certainly, plays have been not as far along as this one that I've done, that have gone into rehearsal. And a couple of months later, the producers came back to me and said, we're not quite there. We need more time. Uh-huh. The note being, it's a little too sad.

Yeah? There's no up with it again? A little too sad. Jesus Christ, if you just did James Taylor story, it'd be the saddest fucking show in the world. Well, that's why we're not doing the James Taylor story. In fact, my son, my little boy, when he was seven now, but when he was four, he asked me to take off the James Taylor.

I was playing James Taylor. I asked me to take it off because it was too sad. Really? Yeah. Isn't that interesting? Yeah. What were you playing? Like fire and rain or something?

You know, just... You can hear it in the voice. It's in the voice. It's in the cordal structure. It's in the... Something he discovered really early. Right. Man, I talked to him.

That story's harrowing. Yeah. You know, drug addiction and depression. Yeah. My God. I can't listen to Brian Wilson. Ah. I feel the mental illness.

Can't listen to Townsville. Van Zent. Same thing. I fucking feel the alcoholism. And it's not, it's not fun party alcoholism. Right. You know, but it's not Jimmy Buffett. No, no, it's right. End of the Rope. Alcoholism. Right. Everything, every song could end with him dying. But James, even before those troubles, I, because, you know, I found these recordings of James doing his music when he was, I don't know, 19, 20 years old in England. He was doing a thing on the BBC. Just him and his guitar and the BBC. And I was struck by, he was just like a fully formed artist. I'm like, it's all the thing he's doing now at 76, he was doing then. And his response, when I mentioned this to him, was like, well, aren't most artists developed by that point? I was like, no, they're not.

You're really an outlier. It's really uncommon to find somebody who is essentially the same. And he said, well, actually, he said, I figured something out. He said, I actually figured it out a little earlier. I figured it out when I was like 15. Yeah. He figured something out that he's been able to continue to mine and explore. He figured out his zone of vibration.

Yeah. You know, which is kind of heavy, but somehow uplifting enough to where it resonates with everybody. Yeah. Which is part of the challenge of writing this piece, right? I've got to find, I've got to find that zone of vibration in the piece. Yeah. But you are a lifelong fan? I am.

Yeah. Yeah. But not like Steely Dan. Well, I love them both. Yeah. You can do that. That's fine. I can love them both.

Yeah. I'm more of a jazz guy. In fact, when James and I first started spending time together, it was so great to just listen to all the songs. And all my questions were about who's playing what instrument and how did you get this guy and where were you recording this? Yeah. You know, sort of the how of the music. I was really interested. So you're more of a jazz guy?

Yeah, usually. Uh-huh. Do you have a deep knowledge? Deep. I mean, I'm not a... Because I do jazz myself in terms of listening. Oh, yeah. And because I'm mildly OCD

and kind of a completist, is that what you call it, that I realize at some point there's no way I can know all these guys. There's no way I can know all the music. There's no way I can know all the music. There's no way I can wrap my brain around the movements of the context of jazz. And so you end up with that, you know, the core group of about 20, 25. You can't know all of it, anything.

You can't know all. There's always another fucking room to explore. Yeah, well, if they die, you've got a limited, you know, you've got the catalog. Yeah, right. And then someone digs out shit they didn't want released and then you're listening to stuff. The lost tapes. They would never put out. And somehow that's a window in to their imperfection.

And slowly you realize, like, this guy just never stopped playing. Right. And it was probably better if they just left the fucking stuff that was unreleased alone. Right. Springsteen was like, what are they, there's like five albums they? Just now they're finding a worth of material. Just like, yeah, he just didn't put this out. Could you imagine that?

It's like if they put all my open mic sets on, like we're releasing the stuff that Mark was for nine people in 1989 be a fucking disaster. Terrifying, right? In the documentary about me, you saw it. That footage of me doing stand-up early on was the cringiest thing I ever saw in my life. Yeah. Had no love for that guy.

You don't go back and look at that stuff as a matter of course, right? No, why would you? Right. I mean, the last special I looked at because I was proud of it, but, like, seeing yourself, would you want to see yourself acting in 1990?

No. No. I don't want to see myself now. I don't want to see, I might have told you, I have a kind of reverse body dysmorphia. Yeah. Where I think I look all right. Yeah, you think you look great. I think I look pretty good and then I see myself.

I'm like, what the fuck? I'm living alive. I felt like I kind of nailed it on the last special. I got the shirt right, got the hair right, got the pants right, but I wore it for months, the outfit. See, you're a one-man band, so that's a, you know, you're, you're, you're a, you're stripped of all that other context, which is... Yeah, well, I mean, I've made a lot of mistakes up there, you know, fashion-wise, on television, off television, even last night, it wasn't true.

But you know as well as I do. That don't mean shit. It means a lot to me. If we go through my closet and I show you the things I bought for a special as opposed to just wear clothes, I was comfortable. The time I hired a stylist, it was kind of a mistake. Then there was the one time I said, why don't I just wear exactly what I wear, which was this shitty LLB flannel shirt, which looked terrible. It's been a long road. But it doesn't matter at all to anybody.

The material is the only thing that matters. Material, the delivery of the material. I think that we could argue on the vest I chose for End Times Fund. I think a lot of people probably had a problem with that. Why are you stopping? I have a theory about why you're stopping. This show? Yeah.

Well, honestly, the idea that people talking, on microphones is some casual kind of process. The way people take this in and like, well, why would he stop just talking? The way I do it is for both better and worse,

emotionally taxing in some ways. Not taxing, but it takes a lot out of me. And we do two of these a week. And the way my producer, Brendan, produces, is meticulous. And we never missed a show. never missed a Monday and Thursday. The workload was real. And I think in terms of just talking and in terms of the media environment, I'm kind of, I'm a little tired of talking in a way.

And I'm a little tired of digging parts of myself out, which is what I do, in order to share and relate. And my fear is that having not taken a break from it, in 16 years, that, you know, I don't really know where I sit in myself because, you know, just by virtue of what you expect out of yourself and what you think the audience expects in terms of the monologues and stuff, you know, I'm kind of doing the same narrative of my anxiety, my heartbreak and all that stuff. And I feel part of it is me just wanting to keep it to myself for a bit and to feel what that space feels like. Also, to challenge myself. to know whether or not my creativity

operates beyond immediate gratification or impulsive talking, which is the root of both of what I do. It's what this is, and it's also stand-up that, you know, I create all that stuff on stage. You know, I don't write in a formal way. And I'm just, you know, I know I'm talented

and, you know, I've been playing more music, but I'm curious to see if I can apply with focus and intent my creativity to something outside of my own narrative. That mostly jibes with my theory. Yeah. What do you got? I think that we all have a, our public personality is curated. Yeah.

Everybody, whether you're in the entertainment business or not. You're talking, yeah, but some people more on purpose. Yeah. Yeah. Some people have to. Right, right? It's mostly defensive. Some people have to.

And I think part of your appeal, not only as an artist, but also as a, whatever this is, I don't know what you call this podcast or talk or conversation. Yeah. Conversationalist. Yeah. Yeah. I think that, you know, there's curation involved in that as well. Part of the gig is, I'm going to show you who I am, warts and all. But, of course, you don't really do.

Nobody does that. Nobody says, nobody shows everything. Nobody says, let me tell you the fucking worst. I've gotten pretty close, dude. I've gotten pretty close. Like, you know, between the books and this, like going on the day after Lynn died. Yeah. I mean, I've definitely done that in a lot of instances.

You know, there are certain things that I kind of want to keep to myself, but they end up in the stand-up. You know, like, I'm really kind of, I don't know where else to dig and I don't want to become redundant because at the core, you know, if what you're saying, what you're saying is true, I think, for most people, but I feel like I've put a lot of it out there. I do too. And the stuff that doesn't get out there is usually Brendan protecting me from myself. Right. But like, at what point do you become, and that depletion from that, it's deep. It's beyond exhaustion. I don't feel tired.

I can still talk. But it's like I don't have the inner resource other than to become redundant in my patterns, which is my version of public personality. And I think it is with a lot of people. It's like with any band. When I look at my last three or four stand-up specials, I'm basically talking from the same place just with different. stories and words. So maybe I don't want to be locked to that anymore. Right.

Maybe you'd like to try it without the mic in a sense, right? Be a person in the world? Try being a person in the world without the microphone. A little bit. You know, when I first decided to stop, I thought, like, well, people really need my voice. And then, like, I go out to promote this special and I just talk without branding, Brendan protecting me for myself. And it's just interesting, you know, how much fuck you is still in me.

And, and, you know, how much that if there's anything I do or I've learned to do is to be more diplomatic about reactive feelings. Yeah. So, you know, it would behoove me not to do much, too much talking without Brendan. Because I know from the. past that I'll eventually get myself in some kind of trouble. Right. But yeah, but do you think, do you think it's valid? My reason for stopping? Sure.

Yeah. Of course. I'm going to try to direct a movie. I'm sure you're going to do lots of things. I'm going to act in a golf show. You're going to act in a golf show. You're going to direct a movie. You're going to continue to hone your stand-up.

You've told me stand-up is always kind of the number one job, right? But there's part of me that's sort of like, after that last special, I'm like, I said it. I've said it all. Yeah. How much... I told you. I thought it's my favorite of yours. Yeah, it was really a different type of work on that one.

But I feel like I've said it. You know, people ask me, I'm like, it's in the... It's all in there. Just go look at it. I already said it. You want to do more acting. Not just a golf show. You want to find other opportunities to do stuff.

Maybe. I don't know. I mean, yeah. I mean, I've been presented opportunities. Yeah. But I don't love to travel. There's a miracle happened with the golf show. Fucking miracle with the second season

because they picked it up. And they couldn't shoot in Vancouver again because it's too late in the year. And they were looking for places. And I'm like, New Mexico would be good because I grew up there. But then all of a sudden it comes down to Atlanta or like Charleston.

And I'm like, I can't fucking do that for three months, three and a half months. And then like, you know, because I have this sort of zero fuckness, I start texting the showrunner. I'm like, I'll be miserable in Atlanta. And I won't be, I won't be, I'll be difficult on set. I promise.

And then he texts back, well, that's a choice. And I'm like, yeah, it's my livelihood, you know, is what I said. But some miracle happened. They're going to shoot it here. They got the tax break. So that's fucking great. I will try to find more work within the craft of acting to do with this guy. I will try to do that.

I will try to, the guy in the golf show. That's what my assignment is. We've established a character. Now it's, you know, hopefully the writing will match up with my desire to go deeper with that. And we'll see. Is not always the way it is? I suppose. Or, no, it's not always the way it is.

Some people say, I'm going to get that check. Don't write too much stuff for me to do. Oh, yeah. No, I like more, I want more stuff. Right. Some people don't. Some people are like, this is too much shit. The supporting role thing, it's like, it's great, but, you know, because it's not all on you, but a lot of waiting.

Right. What about you? How was the working with Sterling? Oh, fantastic. Are you a regular on it? You all the way in it? Well, of this first season. I don't even know if there's a second season.

Oh, so that's what's coming out? Is it out? It's not out yet. It's just the first season of the lowdown? Yeah. I love that fucking guy. I do, too. And what was your experience?

Because my experience on the days, the week I did reservation dogs, which I thought was the best show of the last 20 years. Yeah, me too. It was a way of thinking, a way of humor, a way of spirituality, a way of living that nobody knew about. Yeah. Or paid attention to. Yeah. And it was honest. Yeah.

And I just couldn't believe it. So when he put me in it, and to see that most everyone on the set is native, yeah, it's like joyous. I know. I know it's remarkable. Look, I did something I've never done before in my life. I got my agents and I said, just get me on the, get me on a call with that dude. And I got on a call with him.

I got on a Zoom call with him. And I said, I'll do anything. Yeah. I said, just based on that show and who you are and what your mission is, I'll do anything. I said, if you don't have a part for me, I'm coming to Tulsa and I'm going to get a food truck for the cast and crew. I'm going to help. You can't keep me out of it. And he actually sent me a script and he said, pick, pick the part, pick what you want to do. And I sent it back to him. And I said, no, you pick. You tell me how I can help you. Yeah. And it was

everything I wanted it to be. It was everything I, I hoped. And I was not the only person making that call, you know, Tim Blake Nelson, also from Tulsa, Jeannie Triplehorn, also from Tulsa. I mean, you know, some of us is like, you can't do this without us. Do you need triple horns from Tulsa? Yeah. And she's in, I haven't seen her in years. She's in it, yeah. How's she doing?

She's great. She's great in the show. And Ethan? Fantastic. All in. Yeah. All in that dude. Yeah.

He, uh, what's the part? His part? Your part. I'm a bad guy. Yeah? Yeah. What kind? The kind with money.

Ah. Yeah. So you're a high-level bad guy. Well, you have to watch a show. I'm excited about it. I am too, man. It's so Tulsa. It's so...

What part did you grow up in? I was born in Tulsa, but never actually lived there. I grew up in southeastern Oklahoma in a little town called Durant. Yeah. And what was your experience as a kid with the native population? Well, Durant, Oklahoma is the seat of the Choctaw Nation. Yeah. You know, I just did one of those finding.

your roots. Really? I did. With Gates? Yeah, I did. I did one of those. It was pretty great. Yeah, and it was pretty great.

One of the things I wanted to investigate was the Native American blood I have, which is on both sides. You have it? Oh, yeah. Mom and Dad. Really? Pretty extensive. And in fact, they were able to come up with a lot more history than they normally can.

I said normally when we find a lot of Native American blood, we hit a wall in history. But they were able to trace it back. fairly far. They said that about my Jew too. They said we got further back into Belarus than we ever had. So, you know, my experience. What did you find out? Well, you got to watch show. I'm going to give away the show? You're not going to, no, you're not going to give away finding your roots? It's going to be so less interesting. Me telling it is going to be less interesting than the way they're going to fucking reveal it on the show. I mean, at some point they started talking about some confederate asshole and I'm just like yeah whatever okay I don't care

you know there's a whole story about this guy is like well he went out the fucking uh he he got shipped off to a prison somewhere and then then then he got released as part of a prisoner exchange program and then he re-signed up with the confederacy and just at every step of the way and they're like and what do you think happened next I'm like I'm sure he was fine sure he was absolutely fine but what did you find out that surprised you that that's not something you get totally with the show. Because you're sitting there kind of in shock and you're like, wow. But like what do you walk away from it?

So I knew about the Creek Blood, the Muskogee Creek Blood on my dad's side. And they found out some stuff about that. But then my mom had always claimed Cherokee blood, which we laughed about because people who are from Oklahoma who claim Cherokee blood were always, it's always met with a shrug. It's what everybody claims. Sure. It was like, you know how many fucking Cherokee blood. Turns out she did.

Turns out she had Cherokee blood. How many generations back on these things? A few. I mean, going back to, you know, a few. Yeah. I was hoping for some Viking. But I didn't get that. Didn't get any Vikings.

No, I got like 99% Ashkenazi. I don't even know what the other 1% would be. I guess it's just, you know, we don't. Blood is different than heritage. You know, there are two different things. Sure. Sure. but I was hoping maybe the Vikings came into Poland, you know.

Did the Vikings go into Poland? Didn't they? I don't think so. I think they made a maybe the coast of Europe somewhere. Like I just, I thought, you know, maybe one. The coast of Europe? There was maybe, you know, somewhere. It's possible.

I got to look at a map. I was sure. I just hoping for a little like, you know, because I consider myself kind of a, There's your new, there's your new, there's your new, your show. Yeah, the coast of Europe. Yes. Mark Marin explores the coast of Europe. I'd watch that shit.

But it's interesting growing up in New Mexico around indigenous people because you, it was so, I imagine the presence in New Mexico is different than Oklahoma. Like in New Mexico, it was definitely in terms of art, heavily integrated, you know, all throughout my life. There were native painters, jewelry, all that stuff. But in terms of having the experience of being in their lives or them being in yours, there was not much of that. You know, you would see them around, but you wouldn't, you know, you didn't know what was going on and what the life was like. Well, but again, we were them in a way, you know, don't get me wrong. I was raised in a very, very, for lack of a better word, white household. Yeah.

But, you know, my brother, my oldest brother, is half, quarter, his grandfather was full blood. Uh-huh. So, I mean, so, you know, the presence was ubiquitous or part of us. Sure. Right, right, right. I don't know how else to define it. It's, I mean, and of course, it's a legacy of bloodshed and horror and, oh, my God. Yeah, I was totally thrilled to be part of it.

Yeah. You know? I told Sterling, I said, I got a little mad when I saw your show, when I saw reservation dogs. Yeah. I said, because I've lived in Oklahoma for the first 17 years of my life. And I was like, why have I never seen these people represented on TV before? How many fucking bad doctor shows have I watched in my life about white doctors or white cops? You know, I've seen that show.

I love some of those shows. It's not a problem with that. It's just, why did I have to watch a thousand of those to get to one reservation dog? That's the way I felt like, it's almost like, why did I wait my entire life to know anything about this? And the zone of it, like the timing, the sense of humor, the spirituality, the actual environment of the reservation, what's left from the heritage and what carries on. Like, it's all in there in the most entertaining. And it was like, it was, I can't shut up about it usually. Yeah.

Well, what did he say? Yeah, I know. No shit. Did you watch any of his movies? No. You should watch him. He made some good movies. Yeah.

I love him. You know, we shot a lot of, we shot a lot of the lowdown on his property. He's got a couple hundred acres, Keystone Lake in Oklahoma, and we shot some of it on his property. It was great fun. I love the crew. I love, you know, I loved being in Oklahoma. I love being home to be part of it.

I loved, you know, the sense of ownership of that is like this is a place. Yeah. And the fact that he's making a community there where there wasn't one before. Totally. It's so exciting. Tim Blake came back, one of the great Oklahoma Jews. That was the greatest revelation to me when I had Tim on here. What?

There are Jews in Oklahoma? Not only their Jews, but like how they got there. There was, like, I can't remember what year his family, like, settled there, but there was a Jewish diaspora kind of, not diaspora, like they, they were, you know, they spread out throughout the country, so they wouldn't all be in the same place. Yeah. But that was great. Did you have scenes with him?

Never once. You know him? Never met him. Really? Yeah. I know weird. It's kind of weird. My dad died in a Jewish community, you know, community center, Jewish.

No kidding. Yeah. Because of that? Well, it didn't help. Yeah, the Jews, they get around. They're all over the place. So what's on the acting docket for you? Do you care?

Yeah, because I want to learn. I mean, I got some stuff coming out. You know, I'm not here to talk about stuff. I mean, I'll tell you about my stuff. I don't care. I just want to know about the roles that you've taken. So I play a general in the new Catherine Bigelow movie, a house of dynamite coming out soon. In what era?

Modern, contemporary. Oh, so you had to put on a uniform? I did. And do the whole thing? I did. I must have been good. That was a blast. Yeah.

It was hard. It was a hard gig. Yeah? It was almost all, you know, computer screens and having to do all this. In front of green screens? No, not green screens. Actual computer screen. Actual monitors in which I'm like talking to, everybody I'm talking to is on a screen somewhere.

Okay, okay, yeah. And having to talk that kind of shit NADSAT language, you know, operationalize and, you know, shit words like that. It's just like a language I don't fucking speak. So it was really hard. At one point, the AD came up to me. We were shooting. The AD came up to me between takes. Yeah.

Catherine was back over by the monitor. And he said, Catherine wants to know why you keep looking down. And I said, because I'm reading my lines. Literally got them. Weren't fooling anybody, were you? No, you guess not. You get away with it. This will be okay here.

Yeah. It's hard. I ran up against the same thing when I did the big short. when you have to learn a different language. Dude, you're so funny in that. Oh, thanks. I re-watched it. Yeah.

Because I found it annoying the first time I watched it. Yeah. And then I watched it again. I liked it better. Then I watched it a third time. And I was like, this is fucking great. Yeah, it's really good. I mean, that scene where it's like, you can give us back our money.

Yeah. Yeah, it's really good. But for all of us, it was just like, we don't, we don't speak that language. You don't speak money? We don't speak money. We don't, and we don't, sure, don't speak military. We don't know that language. Yeah.

So I had a couple of dudes on set with me who were the real deal. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, they're the guys, they're the technical advisors. Sure. They've sat in the seat I'm pretending to sit in. Yeah. So it's, it was fun. It was hard gig.

It was funny because, but I mean, when you read the script, what did you realize about that character that got you there? well it's funny the the script for katherine's movie yeah uh is very uh it's very uh process oriented it's really a procedural it's about here what these people in government do so the job in some way is to to find a human being who's doing that job performing this function right yeah yeah and so just find the moments where a little humanity kind of leaks out, creeps out. For all of us.

It's a real ensemble film. Rebecca Ferguson, Idriselba, Jared Harris. I'm Jared Harris. There's a lot of really good people in it. But that's, it's really the gig, is just to find the human being who's making these decisions,

who's making these calls. You know, the guy I play doesn't have my, he doesn't think the way I do. Yeah. So that's always fun. Yeah. To think, sure. think the way somebody else thinks.

Yeah, yeah. And that's what it really comes down to. And that's on the page. It's always on the page. You know, people ask me about all the research. I'm not a big research guy. I'm always kind of like, I just put on the costume and act like I'm, pretend I'm the person. Find the feelings.

Find the feelings. And if it's well written, it's there. It's there. And in fact, I think it really served me on that picture in particular because the, like the other generals were saying, the guys I was talking to, They were like, you're not answerable to anybody. You do whatever the fuck you want. You know, there's no protocol that you, you know.

You're the general. You want to drink a coffee? Drink a coffee. You want to stand up? Stand up. Yeah. You don't have to salute. You're indoors.

You know, you do what the fuck you want. You're the guy. Yeah. That's good. That's a good mindset to get into. Yeah. You know, it's amazing. The props, the hair, the costume, the set, the lighting.

the cutting, so much of it's just doing all the work for you. Yeah, I kind of don't have to do shit. Yeah, you just have to listen. Yeah, listening, which is the skill, which is, yeah. I remember reading about Mickey Rourke one time that he kept a little rock in his pocket. His whole thing was like just trying to keep all of his focus at all times on the rock in his pocket. To what end? So he wasn't thinking about.

Oh, stay present. All he's thinking about is a rock in his pocket. I don't even know if that's true. Mr. Rourke, if you're listening and I'm wrong, I apologize. Oh, my God. Just a rock in his pocket. I don't know. I don't know.

Maybe he was adjusting his cock. Are you doing that again? I am. Maybe I don't have good underwear. I wore the wrong underwear for Marin. So are you thinking about a play? James Taylor. I've been thinking about James Taylor.

Okay. And I'm trying to get, you know, Some more productions of the minutes would be good. That was my last play. I just got an email from a guy who said it's going up in Vermont. Ah, maybe. My play, Mary Page Marlowe, is opening in London in a few weeks. That's the one I told you about that Andrea Reisborough and Susan Sarandon are doing.

And this is the first run? No, no, it happened at Steppenwolf 10 years ago. So it's the first London production. So I've been over for a few rehearsals of that. and I'll go back over for a few previews. I'm excited about that. And then Kerry is doing bug. We were doing bug at Steppenwolf when the pandemic hit.

It was also the show we did to come out of the pandemic, but we're finally moving that production to Broadway. That's coming, opens in January. But as a guy who writes plays, yeah. Like, I think we had a conversation about, you know, writing during COVID. Right. And, you know, what does one do?

how does one like because it seems to me that a good play that you know isn't made specifically as a pandering product yeah must somehow you know speak to the impact of of time

and and reflect on that like in terms of like you know what we've gone through as a country or whatever right even if it's abstract do you is that a conscious thing well I'm certainly conscious of the world I live in yeah I mean and no matter how much news I'm taking in or not taking in on any given day I know what's going on in the world right my response to what's going on in the world is

perhaps not especially sophisticated right right but it's human you're human it is human and I try and contextualize that some that's what the minutes was supposed to be about for me. You know, I wrote a play about fascism and nobody came. It's kind of how I feel. Yeah. What to the minutes?

Yeah. The minutes is very much about fascism. When did you write that? 2016. Yeah. First appeared on stage 2018 and we took it to 2020 and got shut down by COVID. Yeah. Came back from it on Broadway.

Yeah. With the new cast, 2022 or something. But when you look at the news and you think about what's going on, when you're conceiving of a, possible play, do you think about a person, a phenomenon? Do you think about, like, what would the world be like through these characters' eyes? No.

I don't know. I'm telling you, man, I got 10 plays up on the shelf. They all started different ways. Okay. I don't know how the fuck I wrote them. I don't know how anybody writes a play. I look at it totally daunted by it. I'm like, I don't know how anybody writes a fucking play.

I don't know how to do it. I never did it the same way twice. Yeah. I'm not good at it. Like, I don't know when to write. I don't know how to write. Ask me about Mary Page Marlowe. I'm like, I was sitting in a director's chair in Cape Town, South Africa, working on

homeland, and my mother had just died. And I started riding this play on an iPad. That's not how you write a play. Tennessee Williams didn't do that. I don't know how the fuck you do it. It eventually became a play. Linda Vista started out as just like a noodling exercise on the keyboard. I was just on the,

it was just like a conversation between two guys and slowly, I'd never written a play like that that just turned from this conversation with two guys into this two and a half hour play about this guy's unraveling life.

None of them are written the same way twice. Well, yeah, I mean, I talked to Lipside who says hi. Hi, Sam. He generally starts with a sentence and builds out. Yeah, right.

You know, you get a good idea and you can build out from there. Yeah. I've written, I don't know, I've written 10 plays. in a 30-year career. I'm not that prolific in terms of playwright. That's because you're avoiding it with acting.

Yeah. That and a little screenwriting mixed in and a little improv and a Blu-ray collecting and whatever the hell else. You know, I've got two kids too, which is a, you know, I've got two little kids, which is a... How's your...

Yeah, how old's the second one? Seven and four. Yeah. Seven-year-old boy, four-year-old girl. How's the Blu-ray collection? Extensive. Like a thousand. $11,500.

What? I didn't even know there were that many. Do you have all the boo-rays? I don't. I don't. I don't. It's my, it's... Do you watch them?

Yeah, fuck. We watch pretty much a movie every night. Yeah, it's good, right? We put the kids down, we watch a movie. Yeah. It's very important to do that now. Well, again, what we were talking about, as long as we're taking something, you know, as long as we're experiencing story.

Yeah. I go out of my way Yeah I mean we went to To see The The director's cut of Close Encounters

At the Egyptian For American Cinebattec Which does great stuff How'd you like it It's great Yeah right Because I don't have any Recollection of seeing that

In the movies ever Really? We just went to see The 50th anniversary A Cuckoo's Nest Oh yeah Fucking great I hosted a screening

of McCabe and Mrs. Miller For the American Cinema Tech Great print I wasn't even of age to have seen that in the movie theater. Yeah. I'm not sure that I had. Yeah. It's spectacular.

Yeah. If you watch good movies, like I just watched Trouble at Big Rock or I can't remember. It was Spencer Tracy and Robert Ryan. Bad Day at Black Rock. Bad Day of Black Rock. Yeah. Great. Yeah.

Why don't you remake that movie? Yeah. Yeah. No, I'm, yeah. That story could totally play now. Yeah. I'm pitching it. To me?

Yeah. Are you? Am I riding it or am I playing Spencer Tracy? Well, would you rather do that or Robert Ryan? Right. Robert Ryan has to do more physical stuff, I feel. Right? He has to do a get more.

It's interesting that he was such a great heavy, but he could also play. Yeah. Like Robert Ryan in the Wild Bunch is just a marvel. I know. It's from fun. And right, those guys, when they made Bad Day at Black Rock, were probably like 40. They were probably like 20 plus years younger than we are now. You think, I don't know.

Okay, maybe. They looked older. Spencer was older. Yeah, different time. Because there's that moment where Spencer's got to do a little karate business. Because when we were kids, 60 and 60 plus was fucking A old. Yeah. And truth is, it really is.

Yeah, that's the big secret. It still is. It is. I'm not enjoying it. No. I mean, I enjoy it to a degree, but like the clock, the clock. Hey, man, 60 bothered the fuck out of me. I just turned a few months ago, and it bothered the fuck out of me.

Sorry, I missed your birthday. How did it bother you? Like what you're like? I don't like that number. I didn't like, it's never bothered me before in my life. 60 really bothered me. And I got little kids. So you can't help but do the math, you know?

It's like the math becomes really easy all of a sudden. You turn 60 and you're like, oh, I can, yeah, I know how that goes. Be around. Yeah. I know. Some guy told me to get a kitten to stop my other cat from beating up on the old cat. I'm like, I'm not, I can't bring another, it's going to out with me. It's a fucking cat.

You know, Carrie is 15 years younger than me. Yeah. And her people live a very long time. Okay, so you're good. The kids will be fine. No, no. What I mean is she's, she lost three grandparents in a year. They were all in their mid-90s.

Yeah. So her people live on for fucking ever. Yeah. And she's 15 years younger than me. And she's a woman. and one live longer than men. Yeah. So I'm like, honey, you're going to have 40 years after I'm going.

You're going to have a whole fucking huge life. Yeah. Yeah. What was the impetus for this conversation? The only, uh, uh, was that the speech you gave it, your 60th birthday? The only thing I asked was I said, don't marry some guy who's going to do something stupid with my plays. Oh, okay. Right.

He's going to like, do some stupid. Not with your kids. Yeah. But with your, yeah. With your place. August Osage County on ice. Don't marry that guy. How have the kids changed your outlook?

Well, they're just amazing. I mean, my son is a little weirdo. He's into weird stuff, and he's very sensitive, and I worry about him all the time. Yeah. And my daughter, my four-year-old, just has ice water in her veins. There's not a sentimental bone in her body. She's entirely the opposite. opposite of my son. She says the most chilling shit. She said to my son, you know, again, he's

three years older than her. She said to him, Haskell, you will never be loved. She reading your place? And he's totally susceptible. You know, he's just like, no. Oh, God. What, that's pretty cold, dude. Yeah, she's cold-blooded, man. How do you bounce back from that conversation? When she, when I snuggle, you know, my son is very snugly. He wants to snuggle up and cuddling stuff at night. My daughter's like, it's okay, you can leave. Take a break. You can leave.

Good for her. All right, buddy. Did we do it? Did we talk about it? Yeah. We talked about it all. Mortality, creativity, why I'm ending the show, acting, a little bit about movies, the importance of movies. What have you been watching?

What was the last movie you watch? edit out this long pause while I try and remember the last movie I watched. This is what makes audio so good. Is that pensive long pause? The last movie I watched was a re-watch of Park Chanwook's decision to leave. Wow. From about three years ago. Good?

That's a fucking great movie. And he's got a new one coming out, so I kind of wanted to read. You know, the first one is the one I just watched is so elliptical. it takes you a while to sort of catch up to what's going on while you watch it. So I wanted to watch it a second time so I kind of knew where I was a little bit more and locate myself in it a little more.

Oh, that's good. Yeah, I watched Akira Kurosawa's what is it, high, low. Oh, yeah. Because I watched Spike's version and I talked to Spike. Yeah. And I got to rewatch or watch

for the first time some Kurosawa stuff. Oh, man. That's the shit. That's the good stuff. It really is, right? Yeah. I don't think I've seen, No, Gimbo.

Oh, that's the shit. I got to do it. I mean, I remember seeing Roshaman at some point. Yeah. And Seven Samurai, but I haven't seen Yor Jimbo. Your Gimbo is the one that I think that he sued Sergio Leone because a fistful of dollars is such a direct rip-off. I mean, some shots are the same. It's really a rip-off.

Yeah. He sued him in one. Oh, yeah? Yeah. Oh, good for him. Yeah. It's funny you get to a certain age to all the old movies. I've kind of realized that about myself.

It's like I've got to go back about 30 years to start really hitting the patch. After about 95, my interest starts to really wane. Yeah, it's a couple of things. There are. Oh, there's great artists everywhere you look. Always. Looking forward to this new Paul Thomas Anderson thing.

I am too. It's going to be good, I think. How about that, like, you know, celebrating pension? Like, you know, he loves the guy. Yeah. I mean, I've rewatched Inherent Vice. because I was working with Owen. Right.

That was so funny. Yeah. Because you remember Owen's character? Yeah. Kind of shrows up places. Because Owen never watches himself. And I'm like, I thought that was a pretty good role for you. And he's like, I didn't understand in that movie.

I'm like, that's perfect for the character. Yeah, right. Did you ever read Pynchon? Yeah, somewhat. When I was too young to know what the fuck I was reading. You know what I mean? I haven't gone back and re-read it since I was a, yeah, I like that Paul finds some sort of truth in there because it's, it's tricky stuff.

Very. Yeah. All right, pal. What are you going to do now? When are you going back? Go back tomorrow morning. And how is it living up in there in the country? It's great.

You know, we did all the math of where we should live and we got it right because the kids are really loving it. They really thrive there. I mean, I feel like an East Coast imposter. I guess I am. I've never lived in a, I've always lived in the central time zones. Yeah, how I live. And Chicago's indelible.

It is. I was just back there with some friends not long ago and just some people who had never been there before. So should be the tour guide and show them around. It was just a great feeling. Yeah, yeah. I feel very much like a Chicagoan who now lives on the East Coast. Yeah, yeah. But we live in a beautiful place, beautiful area.

The people are really nice. Yeah, everything's great. You seem good. Thanks for coming by. Mark Marin, I love you. I'm sorry that your show's going away, but I understand. Yeah, I love you too. And you'll probably be talking to me more whether you like it or not. You're going to need friends, Tracy. This is what you signed up for. I'm going to like it.

Tracy, let's, my pal. The lowdown premieres next week, September 23rd on FX. Hang out for a minute, folks. Looking for a community that has it all, welcome to Crossings, the urban hub of West Lethbridge. At Crossings, you'll find a vibrant village designed for living, working, and connecting. With top-notch schools, a state-of-the-art rec center, retail spaces, and parks, it's more than a neighborhood, it's a lifestyle. Enjoy NHL-size arenas and aquatic center, an accessible playground,

a 55-acre sports park, pathways, and a library with enriching programs. Learn more at crossingslethbridge.ca. Come on, Sheriff. We all want to hear about who killed that young couple. The girl didn't die. On September 26th. You're dead, right? It's been going on for years.

You're the only one that survived. In this town, the only stranger is you. Why are you doing this? Because you're here. Open the door. Let me out of here. Let me out! The Strangers, Chapter 2, only in theater, September 20.

Hey, people, don't forget if you want all the WTF episodes, ad-free and nearly 300 bonus episodes, sign up for the full WTF archives through Supercast. Go to the link in the episode description or go to WTFpod.com and click on WTF plus. Next week, we've got one of the people who helped inspire WTF. Jimmy Pardo, podcast Trailblazer, is back in the great. Somebody will say to me, hey, on the show, you said blah, blah, blah, blah. And I go, I don't remember anything happened on the show. I'm doing this thing 19 years.

They go, it happened Monday. Like, okay. Well, again, I've done a lot of shows. I don't, yeah, I'm in the same way. Because I, you know, once I talk, it's out. You're in it. And then my producer takes to rest. So if you're just asking me to remember a conversation.

No. From, you know, 15 years ago, it's not going to happen. Me neither. So let's talk about the evolution. I do have to give you a lot of credit, because. when we started this, which we're now kind of wrapping up, you were already dug in and doing it and an inspiration. Thank you. And you kind of had a, you set a precedent and you helped us in kind of figuring out how we were going to approach ours.

You're really the one of the OGs of this wave of podcasting. I am doing my best, not to get emotional, because that's very kind of you to say. Thank you. It's true. And I will say this publicly, and I do say it publicly on my show. There are some folks that forget that I was in early on podcasting, and you never do. You give me credit everywhere you go, and it means the world to me. That's next week on WTF.

And if all goes well, today I'll also be recording an episode for next week with a comedy genius who we never had on the show before. Fingers crossed for that. And a reminder before we go, this podcast is hosted by ACAST. Here's some sludge. PIN I don't know. I don't know. I'm going to be able to be.

I'm going to be. I'm going to be. I'm not. I'm not you know, I'm not a lot of I'm

I'm know I'm I'm know I'm I'm and

I'm I'm You know, I'm going to be able to be. I'm going to be. I'm not. I'm I don't know.

I don't know what I'm going to be. Rumor lives, monkey and the fond of cat angels everywhere.