WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1682 - Judd Apatow’s Favorite WTF Moments

Episode Date: September 29, 2025

Judd Apatow was an early fan of WTF and a perennial supporter of the show throughout its run. So when he asked Marc if he could be a guest one more time for an episode where he plays his favorite moments, of course the answer was yes. And because Marc’s general practice is to never listen to the episodes, he is hearing most of these clips for the first time and reacting to them accordingly. It’s a unique look at the history of the show, curated by a self-described “comedy nerd” and longtime WTFer. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Lock the gate! All right, let's do this. How are you? What the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fuck Knicks? What's happening? I'm Mark Maren.

This is my podcast. Welcome to it. Oh, my God. It was my birthday. Saturday was my birthday. 62 years old. Maybe I'm feeling it. Maybe I'm feeling it.

I don't know. Joints are getting a little, a little achy at times. Just had a physical, which you should do. I guess it's okay. A couple of things. First of all, Judd Apatow is here today,

but it's a specific type of show. Judd's been a fan of the show from the very beginning. He was an earlier listener, an early booster for the show. You know, he was on the show about one year into doing it for episodes 103 and 104, where he gave us all these tapes that he had made when he was a teenager of him interviewing big comics.

You know, I believe in the dressing room of the comedy club because his mom, I believe, was a hostess there. So he was doing WTF way earlier. And when we announced that the show was ending, he texted me this. I'm quoting here. Maybe we could do an episode of WTF

called Judd Apatow's favorite, WTF moments where I play you a clip I have chosen and then we talk about it. You know none of the clips in advance. And that's exactly what we did. And as many of you know, because of my process, I don't listen to the shows. In this episode with Judd, this is going to be the first time I'm hearing a lot of these clips as audio clips. I was in the room when I did them, but my memories, that's hard to keep all those in.

So I'm actually hearing them for the first time. It's just the nature of how I do it. I don't listen to it. I do it and then Brendan does his thing and then it goes out into the world. Rarely do I listen. Also, I think I can announce confidently right now that the end date of WTF is now official. The final episode will be on Monday, October 13th. And I don't know.

It's going to happen right on time for a couple of reasons. You know I'm dealing with Charlie. And it's not good. he's figured out a way to open the door. How the fuck did that happen? So now, like, when I think everything's safe, I'm out here in the studio, and I hear Buster being destroyed,

and I got to go in there and be like, how the fuck did you open the door? I don't know. He jumps up, grabs hold of the doorknob. I don't, it's not good. But it's fortuitous, if that's the correct use of the word, that the show is ending

because I can reconfigure this studio, which is an ADU, into kind of like another kind of office situation, maybe a screening room or where I can watch movies or work or sit down or whatever, but Charlie can live out here. I can re-home Charlie in my home. Huh? Huh? It's given me, I don't know if that'll be the final decision, but it's given me a little reprieve from the anxiety of the Charlie situation. Folks, I'm back at Dynasty Typewriter in L.A. for two shows in October, Saturday, October 11th, and Friday, October 17th. Go to D.

WTFPod.com slash tour for tickets. The documentary, Are We Good? Opens this Friday, October 3rd in New York and Los Angeles. I'll be at some of the screenings here in L.A. this weekend at the Alamo Draft House and the AMC. Americana, as well as at the Vancouver Film Festival. There are special screenings around the country on October 5th and October 8th. You can go to Are We Good, Marin.com to see where it's playing and get tickets.

We're also doing a screening at the Arrow Theater, and I believe Larry Charles is hosting the moderation on that. The Kickstarter for the graphic novel, WTF is a podcast, past 200 grants, so that means everyone who pre-ordered through Kickstarter will get a special box brown design WTF trading card featuring me and my original garage cats, boomer, monkey, and LaFonda. If it keeps going past 250 grand, everyone gets a framed set of four trading cards. Go to Z2 Comics.com.com slash WTF. All right, so a couple of things happened that I think I should address in my life, not in the world. Some people saw a video of me at Norm's Guitars, which is a very famous guitar place for very fancy guitars, collectible stuff, and they've just been, is it champing at the bit about what did Mark buy at Norms? Well, you should know Mark well enough by now that Mark is not going to spend $50,000.

on a collectible guitar. I was just trying to light my load, so I brought Norm a few guitars I didn't really play and an amplifier, so to kind of start cleaning out this studio. And I just wanted to maybe trade it. I don't need the bread, but I wanted to trade it for one guitar that I would use,

and I needed a telecaster. So those people that are wondering what it is I bought, I bought a 1973 black telecaster. That was called, I think it was player grade or play or something, or it wasn't all original in terms of one of the pickups have been replaced, but it's the paint's original and it's got a nice weight to it like the old 70s tellies.

And it's got an interesting pickup. Great sound. I played at the end of this episode. So that's what I got. Reasonable. No 20 to $80,000 guitars for me. The other thing I wanted to mention when I was talking to Pardo, we talked a lot about podcasters at the beginning.

and someone brought it up that I didn't mention Jackie Cation, which I should, because Dork Forrest, her podcast has been around forever. It was there at the beginning. I did it a couple times. She was definitely in the community, and it was just an oversight, and I think it's a reasonable shoutout. I want to give her some love. Love Jackie. Also, you know, I've been talking a lot for a lot of years, and lately sometimes I talk on Instagram, and it seems to really. get around lately.

But I also just want to, you know, I just want to tell you the audience that I appreciate your emails when I get to them. And I appreciate the fact that in many cases I've had a profound impact with this show and with my guests and with what I talk about on people's lives one way or another, helping out or, you know, keeping someone company or helping them reframe something that's been troubling. them. It's something that happens that I would never have anticipated at the beginning of doing this show. And I appreciate it. I'm grateful that it has that impact. I thought I'd share just an email along these lines of like, I really don't know how my voice is going to impact

anyone's life or change anybody's approach to life or help them in any way. And in this example, I think, is, it's not exactly the podcast, but I think it, It speaks a lot. Hi, Mark, long-time listener, first-time caller, just wanted to send you a note of thanks. My lady and I watched your special recently, and you shared how one of your cat's balls was always under the stove. Obviously, a separate ball from the balls on the cat. Our beloved black cat cookie had a small blue ball toy. That's her favorite, which she's had since birth, but it had gone missing when you're

bit about the stove hit us. Taha, immediately ran up to our stove, and sure enough, the ball was there. Thanks, sir, for improving the cat experience of our household. See, it's a little thing, but to that cat, what a life change. Cat thought it was gone forever, his favorite ball. And now, peace, peace, and excitement is reignited. See, it's a life changer. this show and it's not lost on me. Okay, Judd Apatow. Now look, he's got a new book out called Comedy

Nerd, a lifelong obsession in stories and pictures. That comes out October 28th. You can pre-order it now wherever you get books. And this is Judd bringing the goods to kind of walk me through the history of my own show. So, listen, something people keep saying to me about the podcast ending is that I should take a vacation. Look, I used to take vacation. I used to love to go to Kauai. I enjoyed Kauai. I would go there once a year, usually. I haven't been on a vacation.

I can't remember the last vacation I've been on. I was just talking to somebody about traveling to Tuscany and Umbria. I do need to take one. But if you're planning to take a vacation, there's always the question of what to do with your empty house while you're away. Of course, there's the option to host your place on Airbnb to make some extra cash. And now it's easier than ever with Airbnb's co-host network. You get a high-quality local host to take care of your home and your guests.

They manage all the hosting details, send messages and updates, and are available to be on hand when your guests are there, just to help out with anything that might come up. So your co-host handles the details and you still make some cash while you're enjoying your vacation. Find a co-host at Airbnb.com slash host. So, Judd, we are. We are here, yeah, and I appreciate you coming. and you have a plan. I have a plan. You know, I...

You're dictating this. You know, I wanted to get on here to push my book, Comedy Nerd. Looks good. And it's kind of like... We were talking about that it's kind of like the old Marks Brothers scrapbook.

Yeah. The SNL scrapbook with all the projects I've worked on and I wrote essays. Uh-huh. And pictures. There's a lot of pictures. Thousands of pictures.

You're in there. Everybody's in there. I am. What do you got of me in there? Just you performing. Oh, good. And, but I literally, put everything in it, it literally has like

my autograph collection. Oh, yeah. So you can see my autograph from Andy Kaufman and Jack Klugman. Right. Oh, that's great. Jack Klugman. I used to have an autograph picture of Buddy Hackett that I wrote away for. That's what I would do. I would sit and I would write like a hundred letters to see who would send me an autograph. And then I would get like Jackie Gleeson and Gilder Radner

and all these people. Yeah. And like a really young hoarder, because my hoarding must have started then. I have all of it in pristine condition. And now I feel like I had a I can throw my hoard out because I put it all in the book. Are you going to throw it out? Well, I'm going to try to throw a lot of it out because... What about, like, the, you know, the, uh, where your papers, put it with your papers. I always hear about that, like, we have the papers of one of the guys from Peter, Paul, and Mary.

Like, who, who looks at the papers? Well, it's like, I guess colleges have these libraries and they employ these, uh, uh, uh, curators, a librarian job. Yeah. To manage the papers. I just don't know. Like, I've got so many fucking things of papers and people are like, well, you know, we should archive that. I'm like, for what?

Well, it's like the Bob Dylan Museum. And it's pretty great. Have you been there? I haven't been there. And I'd love to go. But I know that mine would not be good. So I... What do you mean?

You got all these pictures? I mean, yeah, sure, you don't have the original tangled up in blue lyrics. I don't have that. But I have like a little pieces of paper where, like, I thought of a dumb joke like, Steve Carrell pees with a boner. And I'm sorry. so proud of that little scrap of, scrap of paper. But I hopefully will be able to let go with some of it.

But the proceeds go to the fires, for victims of the fires. And so all the money. And you do all these shows at Largo, too, that are all benefits for different things. And I realize that. I'm the only one who literally has never taken a dime from Largo. Yeah. Well, I mean, do you need it? I think it's that.

And like, am I really good enough to ask for the money? Well, the one thing is you are. But I obviously, but the good thing about Largo is you can, they like to see you process there. It's a very odd thing. Yeah, they like to see you working on stuff. Yeah, people came to see my hour like again and again. And then they watch this special and they're like, we saw this early on. And it's really good what he did with it.

And that's why when I did this special, there was a bit in there where I'm like, I got to, I don't know if I should do all three beats of this bit because it's going to be exactly the bit that's going to alienate, you know, people. And it wasn't the bit I cut. is really how far do I want to go with that, the Sarge character, the babysitter guy. And Lipside, my buddy's like, you gotta do all of it. You gotta go all for it.

Well, when I saw that, I was excited for you to open up like that. I'm all for people really opening up. It's funny because I've been working on all these documentary projects. We have one about Mel Brooks, one about Maria Bamford, one about Norm MacDonald. And I realized, I do like,

seeing the deep emotional part of people. Which, more than anything. Some of those people wasn't on stage. Yeah, just what all of our struggles are. Maria is full struggle. Norm, not so much. Like the opposite. You know, hard to know with some of these people.

You did one of the best interviews with Norm. Yeah. I think of all the interviews, anyone ever did with Norm, your interview was the best. Yeah. That feels like a transition into what we're going to do. Okay.

Yeah. Well, I mean, start there. Well, you've been, you know, a big supporter and listener of the show, you know, on your own, you know, Noah, you found it, and you stuck with it. And the interesting thing about this, and I've talked about it with Brendan, and people, they ask me about, do I listen to podcasts?

And I'm like, I don't. And I don't even listen to mine. So almost all, I would say 99.9% of my recollections of interviews are whatever stuck in my mind, because I don't listen to it again, unless Brendan sort of like, I worked really, this one took me hours. and make him sound like he knew what he's talking about. And then I'll listen to it. But I don't listen.

Yeah. So whatever you're about to do. Well, we're going to play some clips for you. That's what we're going to do. Well, it's going to be interesting because sometimes people, like, Brendan can quote things because he's listened to him over and over again. And I'm like, I said that. That was pretty funny.

I mean, I get the idea that of not listening to things again. I remember meeting people who wouldn't watch. anything. Owen Wilson didn't want to watch anything. He doesn't watch any of it. Yeah. Adam Driver didn't watch, I think, almost maybe he saw one episode of Girls he was forced to at the premiere. Bill Hader didn't want to watch anything. Really? Remy Schumer forced him to sit and watch train wreck. And then years later, I think he finally sat down and watched some of his SNL stuff. You know, his wife at the time said, you really need to see what you've accomplished. And then he had to make Barry. Yeah. And then he

he, you know, he saw how helpful, I'm sure it was to be in charge of your performance and to edit yourself. And he had to deal with watching himself. It is helpful, especially with the acting. But, like, also, I don't quite understand how you can just be satisfied with acting, you know, as, you know, the process. Like, there's some part of me that's like, you know, it was okay, you know, doing those little bits and pieces and then it all comes together. But like, how does Owen, you know, not watch any of the stuff to see the work? Do you know what I mean? Like, it's not satisfying enough for me just to do the acting.

Well, I think some people, they just want to be so uninhibited. And the thing that allows them to be uninhibited is that they will never watch it. Right. And I think that's what maybe someone like Adam Driver thinks about it is, I can be 100% present because just do a part of my brain that's like, oh, this might really be. embarrassing. Right. And so I get it. Like, I realized recently that I don't, I generally don't watch the movies I've worked on

again, and then not consciously. Usually I'll watch the ones I produce, like I'll watch Step Brothers every single time. Yeah. But the ones I've directed, I don't watch. But you've spent so much time with that. Yeah, you get kind of burnt out on them. Like recently, you know, it's the 20th anniversary of the 40-year-old virgin. Yeah.

They showed it at the Academy Museum with a thousand people. Yeah. And I hadn't watched it in 20 years. And I got to watch it like a fan. Like, I didn't remember for real 80% of the jokes. Really? And how funny it was? And I was laughing.

They're putting it in the theater at the end of August, train wreck, and 40-year-old version. And 40-year-old version for their 20th and 10th anniversaries. But I thought, why don't I watch them? And I don't know. It's almost like it's emotionally overwhelming. It's like bumping into an ex-girlfriend or something. Yeah, the awkwardness. But we're going to do it right now.

So I asked to do this. I said, let me pick some clips as conversation starters. And maybe it'll be interesting because you haven't heard most of them since. Yeah, that's true. Well, maybe we should start with the Barack Obama clip. Okay. And then we'll discuss what we make of it now. Yeah.

The more you do something and the more you practice it, at a certain point it becomes second nature. Sure. And what I've always been impressed about when I listen to comics talk about comedy is how much of it is a craft. Right. And they're thinking it through. And they have a sense of when it works and when it doesn't. And then the longer you do it, the better your instincts are. Same with president.

Yeah. Same with president. And also, I guess the last thing is you lose fear. That's right. I was talking to somebody the other day about why I actually think I'm a better president and would be a better candidate if I were running again than I ever have been. And it's sort of like an athlete. You might slow down a little bit.

You might not jump as high as you used to. But I know what I'm doing and I'm fearless. For real. You're not pretending. not pretending to be fearless. That's exactly right. And when you get to that point. Freedom.

Then, you know, and also part of that fearlessness is because you've screwed up enough times. Sure. That, you know, that. It's all happened. It's all happened. I've been through this. Right.

I've screwed up. Right. I've been in the barrel tumbling down Niagara Falls. Yeah. And, and I merged. And I lived. And that's always a, that's such a liberating feeling. Absolutely.

Right? It's one of the benefits of age. It almost compensates for the fact that I can't play basketball anymore. Well, good. It was great to talk to you. That was good. That was fun. I appreciate it, Mr. President.

It was great. All right, man. Wow. I don't think I realized how, you know, truly present and somewhat vulnerable he was. Yeah. In the conversation. You know, because that's what I'm hoping for, and that's the end of the conversation. But, you know, we were both comfortable.

But I could hear it in his voice. He wasn't, you know, doing the politician, him. And also, like, I'm always amazed at my fearlessness to go ahead and, you know, finish even the president's sentences. That's a level of narcissism that most people don't have. Is it narcissism or is it just impatience? I don't, you know, because like he took it, you know, when I popped the word in there, he's like, yeah. Because sometimes it's really not, it's not self-centeredness. It's sort of like, I'm like, you know, I just want to keep a pace going.

You know, so it's more in any moment. moment when I do that, it's generally like either I've heard this before or, you know, let's keep it going. Like, I don't like dead air that much. And a president could take 11 minutes to answer each question and then you got four in. That's right. And that was like, that was why we crafted that interview the way we did because he's got, he has a tendency.

And if you talk about politics with him, you're going to get into weeds, man. And we only had an hour. And we did have to cover some stuff at the beginning. But, but he was very, he's always pretty thoughtful and deliberate. But there was a vulnerability there that I don't think I remember. Well, I think that it's nice to hear a president talk about how difficult these decisions are to make as opposed to a president who will never admit that anything is hard or that he's ever made a mistake. There's such a madness to the fact that our president never says, I screwed that one up. Yeah.

And it's almost like a mental health issue. Well, to blame, he blamed someone else. That's narcissism. someone else put Galane in the nice prison. Yeah, yeah. Or just like, yeah, I didn't know about that. And, you know, I guess they took care of it. Yeah, I don't know.

I don't know about the case. I like that he keeps saying, I don't know why anyone's interested in that. It's like, like it's boring. Well, yeah. Well, he is the public face of his job, as it turns out, despite all their double speak, is to, you know, to make the deep state to, you know, publicly. charming. Like he is

the deep state and he is a puppet of it and the real deep state. And now it's sort of like Deep State is sort of like let's put this guy out there. They like them. So we'll be

sort of national sweethearts. What would you have done if Donald Trump wanted to come on WTF? We had an agreement that when he was president before now again on the basis of fair play if he would come on with the same terms as Obama, which was,

we get final cut, they don't get questions, they, you know, and, that's that, we would do it. But,

you know, we didn't pursue it. But we, we said if they came to us, we would have to do it. But, you know, he would have done that

and would have just been what it is. I mean, it's like he doesn't, yeah, he'll just yammer on about whatever. Did you have sympathy for the people interviewing Trump about how difficult it would be?

or did you feel like, no, there's four or five things you could have pushed him a little bit on that it still would have been respectful, but we would have got a clear answer on something about what he might do. Maybe. I don't, you know, I don't know if you can get a clear answer from that guy. You know, I think that I don't know what my approach would be, but, you know, generally it's to get them grounded in how they got there. So it would be interesting to kind of get into his, you know, childhood and his, you know, his development, and I don't know how willing he is or how he has that framed, but I would probably approach it the same way. I do other things. Yeah. Well, there's other people here.

Now, a big moment in the history of the show was when you spoke to Louis C.K. about your friendship. Right. And am I correct in saying that that really made the show take off in a lot of ways? People were very interested in that confrontation. Well, it seems that that,

you know, at that time in podcasting, which was a smaller world, that those two episodes, you know, really jumped out in terms of, you know, how I do it and what was done and how we sort of kind of dealt with something, you know, real. And there was a human tension to it. But I think it did sort of represent the possibilities of the medium in terms of how I do it at that time. And I don't think it had been done really. where people and especially men looked each other in the eye and got honest about what their conflicts and disconnections were. Yeah. Yeah. And I was, you know, in retrospect, willing to take some hits.

Yeah. Because, you know, Louis kind of dictates the interaction generally. But, you know, all in all, it was interesting, you know. I haven't listened to that in a while. You're about to. I think you're changing the tone of how television can be made, and I'm very proud of you, and I'm excited for your success. Thank you, man.

And it's great to see you. Yeah, you too. And I'm glad we had this talk. Yeah, you know, when you know somebody for a long time, it's a very valuable, valuable thing. Yeah, it's beautiful. I mean, we were best friends for a long time. I know.

A long, long time. I know. Well, I don't... It's hard. There's times where it's hard to be your friend's friend. I know, but I don't have them. It's not like I have new friends.

It's not like I was replaced by anybody. That would feel worse. No, I'm still the same guy in a lot of ways. Well, look, here's... I can give you one, and you don't have to put this in the podcast if you don't want to, but what I would say,

as far as trying to stay friends with somebody, that you have a hard time thinking about what they're doing against what you're doing, is focus on them, needing a friend. Yeah. It takes a good friend to stay with you in hard times.

Yeah. It takes a good friend to stay with you in good times. Everybody needs support. Everybody does. Yeah. So you're letting me down. If you see me doing something

and you have a hard time coming in terms with it because you're feeling about your own life. What's really happening is you're letting me down as a friend. You're being a shitty friend went by being jealous. Okay.

So think about the other person. Think about what they might need. But like in my heart, used you. I could have used you. I got divorced. I got a show canceled. You know, I had some tough times. I could have used a friend. But you didn't, during those times that were making, those times that were making you jealous. I was struggling. I was having a hard time. Doing the Louie show was really hard. But, but the thing is, is that in our, in the way our friendship always operated, it was not that I was kept up to date and the day to day things.

It wasn't a day-to-day call that we had, but it seemed that most of the time, the thing that made our friendship so deep and so strong, was that when we did talk, we made each other feel better. No, it's true, but you shut me out. You shut me out because you were having a hard time. Okay, well, I apologize again. Well, I apologize to you,

because then I did it to you probably out of resentment. Ignored your emails because you ignored my phone calls back when there was no email. Well, can we get back on track or what? Yeah. I think we can. Because I, you know, I mean, you understand me. You know, I mean, not a lot of people do. And the one thing that, and even when I tell stories about it,

But, you know, it's just that, like, you always are able to, even in your weird way, and even if I thought you weren't listening, even when you did pick up what I was saying, that you were able to give me a great deal of relief, you know, fairly quickly. And I miss that. Well, we understand each other's flaws very well. Yeah. Because we share some. Yeah, yeah. And we've known each other long enough to understand them. So that's why we're able to tell each other about moments that we don't want to tell anybody else.

Yeah. And to be able to say, have the other person go. Yeah, I get it. instead of going, oh my God, why did you do that? Yeah, the only time I did that... Well, don't be stupid. Do this instead or whatever. That happens.

And the only time I said, oh, my God, was when I realized that I had missed so much of your life and I felt horrible about it. You know, it's funny because I did the same thing. When you got divorced the first time, I got mad at you. Yeah. And I know now why, because I was married. And I didn't want you to... I didn't want you to get out.

Yeah. It's hard, I mean, because being divorced, it has changed my relationship to a lot of people that are married. that I knew before. It just changes things. People look at you differently. I love you, man. Let's just try to fucking be better friends.

Okay. Oh, my God. Yeah, interesting. Well, what's interesting about that is that there is, especially in our world, because of the nature of what we do and that we're all pretty flawed people, that the community, like there is a shorthand,

you know, that there's very few people who I have a day-to-day friendship. with, you know, which I do. Neither of them are comics. But with comics, because they're... Because they're your cats. Okay. You got me.

No, they're just guys that are in different elements of creative life, Sam Lipside, Jerry Stahl. But comics, you know, a lot of our communication is very precise, whether it's busting someone's balls or, you know, I get it, you know. And it's almost unspoken. You know, and there are some guys that can see right through my shit. And, you know, I love when people, you know, kind of, you know, take me down the size if I like them and they're funny. And because of that entry point, you do have sort of an understanding because it used to be a much smaller and rarefied community of weirdos that were all kind of on the spectrum of whatever the fuck is wrong with comics. And with Louis, the weird thing is that it did really come out because I didn't know how I framed that. In terms of our friendship, you know, what best friends implies to a lot of people is like you travel together,

your friends with each other's wives or whatever. But with me and Louie, mostly because I was a, and am still a pretty isolated person, you know, with a small social circle, you know, he would dip in and we'd connect and we'd hammer it out. And we'd get some laughs and, you know, he'd sort of give me some insight. He's a pretty philosophical guy and, you know, a fairly wise guy because he's an autodidact who is brilliant and he crams his head with trying to understand himself and trying to understand the world. You know, and he'll sit there and read the, you know, the biography of Teddy Roosevelt and gleaned some life advice from it. You know, so that was, but he's also very funny, but he also knew, you know, how crazy I was. So I think, you know, the idea of best friends, you know,

become sort of a, you know, a confidant thing, like he said. And also that the time you do spend together, you know, is, you know, helpful to both of you. You know, I think that I don't ever remember him really, you know, leaning on me or needing advice. Sometimes, you know, I'd be on the list of people he would call to say, like, I don't know what to do or what to do or whatever. whatever, but it wasn't just me.

You know what I mean? But yeah, we were there at weird pivotal times for each other's wives. And I think a lot of that stuff holds up. And then ultimately what happened is, you know, we were not able to sustain the friendship through his trials and tribulations because I had to speak publicly about it because of those podcasts that we were sort of connected. And I, you know, I was, you know, pressed for a reaction to, you know, what he was. going through. And although I felt like I handled it diplomatically and correctly and still

making myself available to be his friend, I feel like he felt, I don't know that he felt betrayed, but I think he felt like, like, you know, like I fucked him somehow, which I think if you listen to how I handled that, I don't think that's true. And since then, you know, he did send me a rather awkward email saying like, you know, the contents of it is unimportant, really, so as not to start shit. But I said, you know, he said, but I'd be willing to talk. You know, I'd say, well, yeah, that'd be great, but I'm not, I'm not going to, you know, rehash how I handled your situation. And he was like, well, then I don't think we can do it then. I'm like, okay, I've been okay for a few years now. So that's fine. And then it was weird when I'd see

and like there was this, you know, like, ugh, a lot weirdness there. And then, like, the last time at the cellar, I don't know what changed or why, but, you know, I was there and it was like, for some reason at the table, like Santino and Bobby Lee were in town and Chris Rock was there and Darren Aronofsky

and Louis was there. And I was sitting at the table and they, Louis and Chris, and come in, I'm like, oh, how's this going to. And, you know, he was perfectly nice. And, you know, you know, you know, they're making space for me to talk

and, you know, friendly, like old, old, time me and him. Yeah, but nothing ever happened after that, but that happens. I mean, the whole issue of like your friendships in the world of your job and comedy is always interesting because now we've had those relationships with people for 30, 40 years. Yeah, I know. While we're watching everyone go through all sorts of, you know, life changes, marriages, kids, turmoil, diseases. Yeah. And it's interesting, like who you stay connected with, you know, who become your go-toes and people you were so close to.

people just drift off sometimes for just completely natural reasons they got four kids and there they went. You get that. Yeah and I don't know that I fully understood that when I was younger, you know, because I was sort of self-involved. But you know, in grown-upness

you know, I don't get close to a lot of people in a way that you know, would be an emotional risk to me unless I can really trust them, which isn't easy. And I don't, I'm not in the loop with a lot of people's lives. And I had an experienced recently with a comic that, you know, he had misunderstood something and he just shut

me out of his life entirely. And for a long time, for too long. And when we finally, you know, coincidentally saw each other publicly, I was like, you know, what is going on, dude? And he's like, you want to do this? And I'm like, yeah. And he told me what was up. And I'm like, that, that is like, totally wrong. It's all, it's all in your head. And it doesn't even make sense. And then he was like, oh, okay. And then, but it's too late. Yeah. You know, it's like, you know, we, you know, I see him now and, you know, we talk and stuff. But, you know, I did consider him a friend.

And also this idea of I could have used you and whatever, fucking call me, man. I mean, there's very few times I'm not available despite whatever you think. You know what I mean? Like, but this idea that you get something in your head and then you fucking detach and then you're like, you weren't there for me. And like, what am I supposed to do if you don't call me or text me or say, let's have lunch? Jesus Christ, it's not like I'm doing a million things, certainly back then. Well, that was what Gary Chandling always found most interesting when we were working on the Larry Sanders shows. He always said that people are so rarely honest and real with each other.

People never look each other in the eye and have it out in a very direct way. And I think that's what people found so interesting, especially in the early years of this show, was that you were doing that with people. And it's just almost unheard of to do that. Here's another one of someone you had a conflict with. don't think you cleaned it up, though, uh, with this person. I put you in the context of,

of, of the history of comedy, you were a profound presence on the comedy saying, you make, 14, one hour shows. I know that. Gallagher, I know. I'm not saying you didn't write original material. I'm just asking where you're coming from.

I was just asking where you're coming from. That's all. I respect you as a comedian. Do you see any lesbian jokes in my 14 one hour shows? No. No. But what happened? One night, I told some I heard on the street.

And everybody's up in arms over it. No, no, but why the shift? Why did you... It's not a shift. It's only five jokes. I do it two hour, two and a half, sometimes three hours. I get on to the eight. I'm off at 11.

Okay. Everybody focuses on one thing. No, no, I focus on all of it. I'm the problem. Do you think when I'm dead, gays will finally have an opportunity in America? Have I really been holding them down? No, you don't hold them down. No, no, no, wait a minute.

You don't hold gays down. Well, then what's your problem with me? No, I don't have any problem with you. I'm just saying that you reaffirm prejudice by making fun of them. Okay, can we tell a Jew joke that they don't want to pay? Why? It's not true. It's not true.

Why do people laugh? Because it's a stereotype that's been established. Most people that you laugh at those jokes don't even have a Jew in their life. So we can do any jokes based on a stereotype. You can do whatever you want. Black comedians only talk about the difference between blacks and white. Well, there are some stereotypes. Look, I am a person that thinks that some stereotypes, some parts of stereotypes are obviously true.

The Jewish ones. Well, no, but. If picking on white people That's that they don't do it. Or talking about black community stuff. And I understand that there are stereotypes that fit. And fat people only talk about fat. There's this midget comic that only does midget jokes.

I watched his whole act one night. What else is he going to do? That's his life. No, he could be generally funny. There's a comedian. But he's getting laughed. But by your context, if he's getting laughed. Yeah, change the subject.

We're bored. Are they if they're still laughing? No, there's no dynamics. Most comedians are. are terrible. They should listen to me. Okay. I will hear you out. And I help him when I can't. What is your problem with most comedians?

Well, like I just said, their show has no dynamics, and it's not a show based on their knowledge of the audience. It's a show about them. And comedy is not therapy, just because it's a truth. Wait a minute. But if you're talking about a show about them, if you're saying that a person that talks about themselves on stage is not a comedian, then you're dismissing a great many great comics. Yeah. Yeah. They did it wrong. No, they didn't do it wrong.

Okay, you walk into a doctor's office and he talks about his problems instead of one. Well, that's an old joke. If a comedian talks about himself, and that is funny, if a comedian is a storyteller, see, by your rubric, you're dismissing. He can't work a state fair. Who the fuck wants to work a state fair necessarily? Everybody. Really?

Yeah. So in order to work a state fair, you have to take the Gallagher class. You have to work faster and more general. There are families out there, and they're not interested in. in your long, subtle stories. Okay, that's fine. That's the state fair circuit. But the comedy club circuit,

the cabaret circuit, can indulge it different. Why can't you just see it as all being part of show business? Why are you angry? Because there's no show involved. They're a bunch of slovenly. They hunch over,

they turn their back on the audience. They take a drink of water. It's show business. Why are you drawing lines? Why are you taking the other side of everything I say? I'm not. I'm just saying that.

You are. I'm a, why did you want me to do this? interview if you don't think I know anything about what you're asking me. I'm just telling you're done. You're done? I'm not. I was just having a conversation. I have more respect for comedy. You're trying to be controversy. I am not. Well, then tell me about comedy. I just think that show business is show business. We were having a good conversation. Oh, come on, Gallagher. Well, that didn't. Well, maybe it really went well. I don't know. I'm certainly not going to chase after him.

Yeah. Come on, Gallagher. Well, I haven't heard that in a while. That was pretty early in the run. I guess, and it was quite coincidental. It's not like we booked him. I just knew he was in town. The best part of that whole experience with him

was we're at the hotel and I met him in the lobby. He's like, I'm going to show you a trick. And he's like, we're going to get free coffee because there was some sort of thing in the conference room. He's like, come on. You know, he's been doing that. all the hotels he's worked in his whole life. Like, you know, there's a, there's a commissary for the employees.

They'll give you free chicken to him. Yeah, yeah. So I, but I have, like, in my mind thought, like, well, was I indicting him? And I don't think I was. I think that was, you know, I was trying that my argument or, you know, what I was trying to sort of expand on with him was valid. Was he in trouble for some jokes? Is that what happened?

There was something happening? Yeah, well, he had, you know, done these, like, you know, old street jokes. But he's clearly at the moment where he says, you know, black people, talk about white people all the time. Then, you know, it's game over because he's dug into something that is not, it's a false equivalent, you know, and it's clearly, you know, racially motivated. So, like, his idea is like if people laugh at it, you know, what could be wrong? And, well, again, you can say whatever you want, and you might have an audience for that.

but in the big picture, it may not be wrong, but it's insensitive, and he doesn't give a fuck. Yeah. Or worthy of a debate that doesn't have to be where he goes into total meltdown. Yeah, I mean, it took a minute, but he wasn't, the truth was, is that it could have, if he could have said, like, I understand your point, but this is, you know, this is how I do it, it would have been different. Yeah. But I do not think I was being, I think I was trying to get to the place where. where we could talk about his career. And again, I just interviewed him because I knew he was in town and it happened. And I had to bend my brain into that place where it's like, you know, this guy was at the

store in the 70s. You know, he's a guy. He did his own thing. Everybody knows him. So he has a place in this. And I think in the conversation, you know, about the idea of putting on a show, I mean, that's valuable. That makes sense.

That is where he comes from. It's almost a street performer or pop singer idea because it's more than just having a big closer. It's having, you know, he's a prop act. So, you know, you kind of evolve this big show. But the fact that he sees that as the only viable form of comedy is ridiculous. When he decides he doesn't like anyone talking about themselves. Yeah.

Yeah. And if, like, if that's any indication of who he was, it would be impossible to sit through. Yeah. Then there's, I mean, I get when some people, you know, have fun with that. Like, everyone's opening up too much. Like, there's certainly a discussion to be had about the bloodletting that's happening. I always enjoy anyone open in a vein. But it doesn't happen.

Like, that was sort of like the false promise of alt comedy. Mm-hmm. Is that because most of those people did not go on to have big comedy careers, really. that whole scene because it was indulgent. And, you know, in San Francisco used to be a little indulgent. But there is a way to do that. And I guess, you know, I guess it is sort of, you know, outside of, like, if you really think about people who do that for real and the toll it takes on them and how they have to

frame it, it's really only Richard Lewis, right? I mean, who else was really doing that? Like, you know, like, okay, I go to therapy, whatever, a couple jokes. but to live in the mental illness that he had as being the only resource for him to make jokes. I mean, and it's sort of specific. I mean, and I think a lot of people like Richard Lewis, but a lot of people probably don't because of that. So I think that line of figuring out how to be that indulgent because your point of view is limited to you, which I decided to do, you know, out of not wanting material to be stolen or to cross streams. You know, it's challenging because there's always going to be.

people calling you a naval gaser or you're just doing therapy or whatever because a lot of people would do that but they'd do it in character like Woody Allen was in character you know so all the analysis jokes and everything else in terms of true vulnerability around going

through life was tempered by that but also the personal stuff I think seems to hold up better over time the Richard Pryor material about his life really holds up and I think some of the other styles of comedies Well, he's like the template because, you know, he had this whole like canvas of characters and social position.

You know, but once he started fucking up, and there's bits and pieces in some of the records leading up to the massive fuckup. You know, the two, like the one where he shot the car, which was earlier, and then the one where he set himself on fire. So, of course, it's going to hold up because a guy set himself on fire. The funniest man in the world set himself on fire smoking, crap. or free basing. Always a solid story. Totally. And speaking of which,

there was a comedian who's no longer with us who was on the show named Mike Di Stefano. Yeah. Who had an amazing bunch of stories he told on your show.

And I think he did it at like the moth. Yeah, that was a big breakthrough for him. And, you know, someone who we all lost way too soon. So I thought I would play a clip from that episode. I said, why is she so mad at me?

He goes, well, she just feels like you're moving on with your life and you don't love her anymore. Like you have this motorcycle. And he said, you don't need her anymore. Like, that was a strange thing. And I realized how much I did need her. Like, I loved her. Like, she was my best friend.

And so what I did was I went home and I brought some of my work shirts back to the hospice. So I bring these shirts, these work shirts into her. And she was Sicilian. So I said, Frannie, my shirts are a fucking mess. I need you to iron them for me. She got all, fuck you, I'm in a hospice. You know, like what? So I left.

I come back 20 minutes later. All the shirts are iron. Yeah. She got up. And then she's like, where's the motorcycle? Now she's excited about it. I guess, and that guy was right. She just wanted to know that I still needed her.

Like I loved her. You know what I mean? Like people aren't dying. They don't know they're dying. They feel, I'm alive. Dying is an event. They pass away at one moment. Up until that moment, they are alive and they want to be alive.

loved and they want to give and share, you know, in that case. So now she wants to see that. I take her out. She wants to sit on it. I put her on it. She just wants to start it up. Now she's wearing fucking a paper dress, you know, essentially. She got her morphine pole next to her, and she's sitting on this Harley, and I'm worried about her burning her frigging leg off.

So I'm, she says, can you just take me for a little ride around the parking lot? I'm like, no, I can't. I'm thinking that. You got a drip IV with? Yeah. And then it just hit me. I'm like, no, you have to. Yeah.

Like you're in this moment. You have to do this motorcycle ride. Yeah, yeah. You know? And it's dangerous. And what if she falls? And, you know, what if I, one day I'm telling the story. And my wife, she almost died of AIDS, but then I killed her on my Harley.

She fell off and banged her fucking head. That's how she, you know, that's a fucked up story. Yeah. You know, so, and then that's what I realized, you know, fuck it. Fuck, of course. Yeah. So I'm riding around. hospice parking lot.

And then my friend comes barreling in this van who's a crippled in a wheelchair, laughing. What do you do? And I said, I'm riding Frannie around. Frannie's like, can we just go out on the street a little bit? Where's the morphine drip? She's holding it? She's holding the pole.

Mark, it was a pole with four wheels on the bottom. Yeah. And we're riding around this hospice. You can hear the goddamn wheels changling and banging. Yeah. It was insane. And then I passed the front door

and all these nurses are standing out front and they're all crying. They're watching us and they're fucking crying. And I didn't know why they were crying. I was like, why they crying? I didn't get what they was seeing. I didn't know because I was just in it. I was living it.

I knew my wife who had suffered, the suffering that she had been through in her life. She was a prostitute. She was a fucking heroin addict. You know, she was beaten by fucking pimps. This is her past, you know? And then she ends up with this AIDS and she's dying. and all she wants is a fucking ride on my motorcycle.

You know, what a gift, you know? So next thing you know, we're on I-95 because women, it's never enough for now. We're on 95. She's got, she unhooks the fucking pole and she's holding the morphine bag over her head. Yeah. With her gown on that's flying up in here.

So you could see your entire fucking naked, bony body with the morphine bag whipping in the wind. And I'm driving. And we're passing by these guys in their Lamborghinis and shit. And I'm looking at it. I'm like, what the, How do these people... What are you doing?

What kind of life are you living? Look at me. I'm on top of the world here. And, you know, that was the last thing I did with her. You know? And, you know, I feel so blessed and lucky. Like, you know what I mean? Yeah.

I feel like that was... You can't ask for a better moment in a memory than that, you know? So... Yeah, it's heavy, man. Yeah, it's beautiful stuff, you know. And it's what we all... You know, the biggest things that we're afraid of really can be the most beautiful

if you're looking right in the fucking eye and you don't flinch because there's something really beautiful behind it. Hmm. Hell of the story. Do you remember doing that interview? Yeah. Yeah, I think we were in Florida.

And, you know, the range of personal experience, you know, of sadness, trauma, you know, losing control your life, it's all varied, but the impact is always similar if you connect with it. But I think what's beautiful about him, about DeSafano, is that this is a, it's a hard life, but it's also, you know, a life that could be judged, you know, by, you know, proper culture.

You know, that, you know, he was a sober guy, you know, and when he talks about what his wife did and who she was and, you know, who he was, you know, this is an easy sort of humanity to dismiss as degenerate or, you know, like, what a fucking out of control loser or whatever. But to find the humanity in those moments for people that have had that type of rough go at it, whether it's jail or drugs or horrendous abuse, it's very powerful to humanize things that can be dismissed as, you know, weak-willed or criminal or whatever. It's because the struggle is the same. And when people transcend those types of situations with their humanity,

it's just it's humbling and it's it's powerful and it's a testament to the human spirit and it transcends, you know, whatever judgment you're going to put on it. What did you think when you first realized that this was going to be a certain portion of the show that it wasn't just funny chats with comics about their road adventures? Like you didn't see this coming, I would assume, that people would open up in this way. No, but like when it started happening, I realized that it was fundamental. mentally helping me by forcing me to make the space for that kind of empathy and to sort of like naturally, like, you know, once I, you know, once you get, if you're with a comic and you're doing the thing and you got that going, that's good. And you can take some good shots. And there's certain people whose balls I can bust and they get a kick out of it. But once you enter this other space, my, my need for, my need for connection, you know, stops. And then, you know, you know, you know, you know, after that stops, you know, my empathy builds. So once that space started opening more, it was like, well, this is the real stuff. You know, if we can get to, you know, anywhere in this, in this spectrum of sharing vulnerability and engaging with empathy,

that's the human stuff that is missing, I think, from a lot of people's interactions, like you said. So anything that on some level makes you believe in the, you know, universal intelligence or spirituality or God that somebody like you that was struggling with issues of empathy or self-involvement. Yeah. And somehow you're drawn to do a show that has conversations with people that forces you to learn all these lessons and changes you. Yeah. While helping other people.

Yeah. People are presented with these opportunities and they can take them or not to learn and grow. Right. And get over their stuff. I don't know if it implies universal intelligence because... Why you got to fight universal intelligence? Just say that's what it is. This is your next lesson.

I'm going to teach it to you. No, I do... I'm not going to deny that there's universal intelligence, but I'm also not going to deny that humans either collectively or on an individual level can push back on that and become monsters. So, you know, honoring the universal intelligence. Or if you want to call it God, you know, honoring God, you know, finding the humility, in whatever God you choose is, you know, it requires a vigilance and it requires a connection.

And, you know, if this exists as universal intelligence, that doesn't guarantee that humanity is going to be decent or that humanity is not going to fuck itself by pushing back on that or misinterpreting it and using it for evil means. So this is all in your special. Different way. It's suggested in the special. This might be more in one of the past specials. But no, I agree with you. But I do think that in a culture that is divisive to the point where, you know, it's not even group divisive.

It's divisive on an individual level because of the way we take in information that, you know, these stories that elevate the human experience and the humanity of it and the humility of it, you know, it's like food, dude. And it's food that is not readily available as much as it used to be. Okay, I'm going to put on a clip of Robin Williams talking about suicide. Great. But funny. Yeah, of course. But very, very funny. But I think one of the best of all of the interviews that you did.

So before you had the heart problem, I mean, you don't seem to me someone who's like morbidly fascinated or hung up on death. No, I mean, that's weird. I mean, when I was drinking, there was only one time, even for a moment where I thought, oh, fuck life. Right. And I went like, then even my conscious brain went, did you honestly just say fuck life? You know, you have a pretty good life as it is right now. Have you noticed the two houses? Yes.

Have you noticed the girlfriend? Yes. Have you noticed that, you know, things are pretty good, even though you may not be working right now? Yes. Okay, let's put the suicide over here on Discussable. Let's leave that over here into the discussion area. about that? First of all, you don't have the balls to do it. I'm not going to say it out loud. I mean, have you thought about buying a gun? No. What were you going to do? Like, cut your wrist

with a water pick? Maybe. So that's erosion. What are you thinking about that? So can I put this over here in the what the fuck category? Yes, let's put that over here and what the fuck. Because can I ask you what you're doing right now? You're sitting naked in a hotel room with a bottle of Jack Daniels? Yes. Is this maybe influencing your decision? Possibly. Okay. We're going to put that over here. tomorrow morning and who's that in the bed there? I don't know. Okay, well, don't discuss this with her

because she may tweet it, okay? This may not be good. Let's put that over here in the what-the-fuck category. We're going to put that over here, possibly for therapy, if you want to talk about that in therapy, or maybe a podcast two years from now. Do you want to talk about it in a podcast?

No, I feel safe. Are you talking about it in a podcast? I know. Who is this? It's your conscience, asshole. Oh, okay. So, have you ever thought about it since then? No, during the surgery, were you thinking about death?

No. Why? Because you just were thinking, everything's going to be fine. Was that your mother talking? Maybe. She was a Christian scientist who had plastic surgery. Wow. Is that a mixed message?

Yeah, that is. Okay. We're going to go back to the podcast now because Mark's sitting here. We're talking now. I know I feel like golf commentary. But, you know, look, tigers back. Tiger's playing. Tiger's doing well.

I was hoping that some of the tweets would have golf metaphors It's like, you know, choke up rather than choke, you know, or like, you know, I'm going to hold you out and put from the rough. No, he didn't say that, you know. It's all good. We're back. Thank you. That was wonderful.

Thank you. It's a nice interval. A nice interval. A nice interval. Discussions of death. It's very freeing. Wow, man. I haven't heard that since it happened.

So what's amazing about that is you get his whole life story. You get his weird improbable. organizational genius and you get, you know, a real sort of sense of struggle. Like, and it's like no matter what anyone said about that guy, you know, repeating riffs or hackiness or whatever, I mean, that, that is the genius, you know, in that little piece, you know, because, you know, I could see him doing that on stage and that his innate need to find a funny line. I mean, who's that next to you? I don't know. I mean, that, where does to have that in the moment, you know, because he was going through it.

Like, one of the reasons I did that interview, you know, and his death, you know, in light of that, I think has to be separated for the intentions. His struggle with not wanting to live in the midst of alcoholic self-pity is different than making a choice in relation to a chronic debilitating disease. Well, he had louis body dementia. Yeah. And so it wasn't really about depression. It was somebody who was losing themselves. Yes.

And I think that, you know, however you feel like that, about that, that, you know, the choice is different than to, like, you know, have a bad night and, you know, make the mistake of killing yourself. You know, it was obviously something thought through. And for reasons that even if you're morally uncomfortable with it, it, it's, you know, it's a mistake. it's understandable. Yeah. So, but the reason I did that interview was interesting because it was really,

like, you know, you got to love Robin. And, you know, even with all, within our community that sort of he just stole jokes

or he's hacky or whatever. When I'd hear young comics, you know, diminish, you know, his stature. You know, there was always part of me,

it's like, all right, even my personal feelings aside. You know, I don't follow everything Robin does. But he has done everything that you want to do brilliantly. Like, you know, he, you know, he was an inspired comic, a singular voice.

He was, you know, the center of a hit television show that honored his voice. He'd had a range that enabled to do, you know, tons of movies. Do you win Academy Award? For Goodwill Hunting. Yeah. So, like, and you're going to sit here and go like, nah, he's a thief and a hack. It's like, go fuck yourself. So part of my intention was to elevate him.

with a new generation of comics. Well, I was watching the documentary about him on HBO. Yeah. Literally last night. The amount of incredibly brilliant jokes is ridiculously high. Yeah. You know, I think that he's underrated in a giant way. That was what drove me.

Yeah. You know what I mean? That it was like, who the fuck are you to, like, take any shots at this guy? You know, and God knows when I was younger, you know, the joke-stealing thing, you know, It has an impact or whatever. He just sent checks. It's like, but I had a moment with him up at the Throckmorton after he saw me at a show where I saw it happen.

There are guys that just have a certain, and it's not, I'm not being an apologist for it. But it was funny because he watched the whole show. I was on stage and he was up in the, you couldn't see him. He was in a balcony seat. And any time a joke would just not do quite well, I'd hear, oh. He was there for you. But I also knew.

on some level he wanted me to bring him in. You know what I mean? Yeah. Because that's just the way he was, but I couldn't handle that. But after the show, we're backstage and he's talking to me and he's doing that bit I used to do about the demon, the tired demon. You know, like, you know, he used to be like, let's go out and get some booze and pussy and, you know, whatever.

And now it's sort of like, oh, that's an ice cream. And he started to paraphrase it to me to my face and then kind of run with it. Big and better. Right. And I'm like, that's how it happens. Yeah. You know, it's just one next step to where he thought of it. And it's not necessarily forgivable, but I get it, you know, and it happens.

And that's just the way it is. Well, I don't think he made it better. I'm such a soft spot. I'm sure he did. But I, you know, I have such a soft spot for him because my first job was working for comic relief. So when I was 18, I would watch the rehearsals. I was just a PA. I just got to watch him from a distance for many years.

Yeah. Just how kind he was. Yeah. Oh, great. How brilliant and just a special person. And when he passed, someone said, you know, we all took him for granted because he was such a joy machine for so long, so consistently that people didn't appreciate it

because it was just he was always there. A constant, yeah. Doing his thing. I'll switch to music for a moment. Okay. Because I know how much you love music. And one of the great interviews you did was with Bruce Springsteen. and I think one of the reasons why it was so strong was I don't think he is one of your favorites of all time.

He's not your Rolling Stones. And as a result, you were very loose and real and you had a very intimate conversation about depression and fathers. And I think it's one of the best interviews he's ever done because he was having a riot with you. And it was like people discovering each other. That's right. He, he, I, you know, I got him engaged, you know, with me, which was, you know, because he's a guy whose public persona's like, yeah, me and the boy, you know, it's, it's very dug in and pretty broad.

Like, you know, he can put on the Bruce show, you know, in conversation. He, I think after this podcast, something shifted in him. I'm not going to take responsibility for it. But then, you know, comes to one person show, comes, you know, but before that, you know, before this interview, that was not, that was not what was happening. And again, I'm not taking responsibility for it, but it probably was the book, you know, going out on the road and reading pieces that book that is very sort of in-depth candid and really shows his flaws, shows his, the family that he came from, you know, it's relentless

and kind of brutal. But I, I loved, there's a moment I always talk about from that interview that was just the best, where, you know, he didn't know me. You know, the publicist set it up, and I'm at his house. It's Christmas week, and we're in Jersey, me and Brendan. And we're waiting in this separate building that's like a, you know, studio and, you know,

there's equipment, guitars and stuff. You know, it's a nice big space. And we're just waiting. I got my little Zoom over there. And I just see him walking down from the big house, you know, little Bruce. And he's walking down. He's got his book because I think he's used to, like,

you know, you want to read some of it? I'm like, he has no, yeah, it was a moment he has no idea what he's getting into. And I just started the way I usually start. I'm sure it's on there. I paraphrase myself because I could just listen to what I exactly say. But I remember he comes in and he sits down, you know, with that Bruce kind of weight. You know, like, who were you? You know, like, but it was, so I said, so what's going on up at the house?

A lot of craziness, Christmas, cooking, presents. He's like, correct. And I'm like, I want to talk to that Bruce. Whoever that Bruce was. We got to go there, you know. And a year or two later, I found, you know, Tall Wilkenfeld, right, the bass player, the prodigy, who plays with all these guys. And apparently she was in conversation. She was talking to Bruce, candidly, about doing a press tour for her record.

And he said, well, when you do interviews, you just, you tell them what you want to tell them. You don't have to answer their question. You take control of it. You tell them what you want to tell them. You guide it. and she goes, oh, that's good advice. You know, because my friend Mark Meran interviewed you, and he said, he pushed.

He got it out of him. Yeah. Well, let's take a little listen. I mean, you talk a little bit about boundaries in the book, but, you know, what you had to do in your mind was sort of build the wall. Yes, I built quite a few of them, yeah. Yeah.

You know, just to protect this other part, which leads to this thing, you know, I do stand up and I'm doing it for years, and there was something I identified with in the book, which was for some reason, and this is me now, then maybe you can help me. Maybe you already are.

But I can open up in front of a crowd. Yeah. Like, and put it all out there. Well, that's easy to do. I guess. If you're that kind of person. Correct. Right.

But like when I get home or I'm in a relationship, you know, I'm like, what do you want? What's happening? Well, there's certain kinds. of people, you know, that only feel at home in a crowd. Performing for them. Performing for a crowd. Number one.

You have tremendous control, tremendous control. Everybody's listening to you. Isn't that great? But what about those times, though? You know, like, I don't know if you ever did it, but like, like, it seems like that you really kind of had a practical way of addressing fear. you know, heading into things. Like, you didn't want it.

I have to assume it was there, but somehow... Of course. Right. But did you ever have those nights where, you know, you, that one place where you have control, you go up and it's like, listen, I mean, I know you talk about one gig in London. Yeah, of course.

Well, your desperation has to be greater than your fear. You know, your desperation, your hunger, your desires, your ego. Your ambition has to be greater than your fear of complete humiliation. And so as long as you have, as long as you have that equation correctly balanced, you're going out there, my friend, no matter what happens. Because you have to. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, but it's like, it's funny, though, because, like, there was an interesting, you know, realization that you had, and I assume a lot of this stuff in the book that's you thinking about this stuff. Like, I have to assume that some of this stuff you write in the book about the past is you now going like, oh, yeah, well, now that I know this, that's what I was doing. Of course. But back then, you're like, who knows? You have just going. All of this stuff is inside me. Right. Working its magic. Yeah. And I'm just following it and I'm stumbling out on stage because I have to. I don't, I'm not sure why I have to at the time. And then I'm just, you know, exploding. and letting things take their course.

But those nights where it's like that you didn't get the love you needed out there, that's bad. Because that means there ain't no love nowhere. That's why those nights are bad. If you've squeezed all the rest out of your daily life and then you're not getting it there, there ain't no love nowhere, my friend. It's a lonely world when that happens. And you went through months like that.

Well, sure. I mean, now most of the time, you know, we're not about the crowds, but where you take, you were out in the exile in a way. I went through that for years, you know, years and years, you know, in my real life. Yeah. You know. Yeah. But, you know, I always fell back on my pretend life where I got to pretend I was Bruce Springsteen. And I always had that to fall back on for three or four hours a night, you know. Right, right.

Yeah. When things get real dark, it's sort of like, let's do the show. Yeah. At least that's something that I know where the fuck I am. Right? Yeah. That's just do the show. I'm safe there.

I know what's going on. I know what's expected of me. I have no problem busting my ass to deliver it. And at the end of the evening, I can go home and put my head to sleep on my pillow in a short moment of pee. I did it. I did it. And then you wake up. And hell starts all over again.

Holy fuck. I'm pretty good at this. Why are you stopping? You're going to keep it going after this episode. But I did go through, you know, the list of all the episodes. Yeah. You really did get almost everybody. I know.

And so I, when I went through it, I thought, I mean, obviously, was one of the people who was like, you definitely shouldn't stop doing it, just do it less. But when I went through the names, there is a sense that it is completed. And also there is an arc to you telling your story through all the people from the comedy store that you interviewed and working through things. And there does seem to be a sense of the circle has closed. Yeah, I believe that. But that Bruce thing was like, you know, it's kind of amazing because I don't listen to these,

but, you know, we were locked in. He was getting laughs, felt comfortable, you know. He was like, you know, he was exploring it in a different way than he did in the book. And there was another one when I was telling him some story about myself, about, you know, never feeling like it's quite enough. And he's like, of course you don't. Like, you know, that there was this, you know, he was in. And I just did a small part in that movie.

And it was kind of great, you know, because it's a very small part. And I was kind of like, oh, my God. God, I got nothing to do in this movie. But he and Landau were in the video village all the time. And you're the producer? No, I'm just an engineer. You sound engineer. Yeah.

So you're acting in Springsteen's at the monitor. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And it was very helpful, I think, for Jeremy Strong to have Landau there because he's so meticulous. So if he had a check of behavior or something, he could go. But for me, you know, cut and I could go out there. And because I had that experience, he said, yay, you know, we could sit and talk about guitars and shit. It's an amazing thing

Because, you know, out of all these guys You know, the thing that becomes Really kind of Enlightening is that you do talk to them as people And they are just people But they can do this amazing fucking thing Like, you know, it's like magic How the fuck do you do?

I still can't answer that. He's just like us You could just go in a room and write Candy's room Yeah, but perform it for four hours to to sort of hold that space for that many people. And, you know,

and it's, no matter how you talk about them, it doesn't explain that. That's the fucking gift. You can't explain that. Why is Keith Richards? I still watch Keith Richards. On stage, you know,

old stuff, new stuff with a guitar and I'm like, and there's like 30,000 people there and they're just like doing it. How the fuck do you do that? You know, it's, and it's not the same with comics. You know, like,

I always think, when comics are playing like arenas, they're doing something other than what I think stand-up is. You mean doing arena shows is different than being in a club? Well, yeah, just doing like, you know, that kind of like down and dirty, you know, even a showroom. An arena thing is, has different requirements. I don't understand why people go to see comedy at arenas, really,

because you have to, you know, you kind of, you have to change your timing. You know, your decisions are all based on punchlines that are so solid that you have time to wait for them. And, you know, it's just not, it's, it's, there's, the intimacy is not there. And I kind of thrive on that. Yeah, whenever I'm around people, you know, who've achieved like that, I, I feel like people like him have evolved to a place where the work is a giving gesture.

It's not just the work. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It feels like he's on a, on a long journey with his audience, filling them in about his life. Yeah. Being an avatar for their experiences. And at some point,

and it just becomes this other thing. And I do think in comedy, in your work, you know, when you share your experiences, you know, with your dad, what's happening with your family, that that's the comedian's version of sharing. Yeah, and also the podcast, the evolution of that. But also, like, there's something magic about music

that, you know, there's no analog for that in comedy in that, you know, people, you know, spend their life with those songs. And those songs grow with them. and they represent different points in their life. And sometimes, you know, music that you listen to as a younger person and you listen to it as an older person, it continues to evolve and grow with you.

And that's just fucking magic. Who the hell knows what that is? But it's also easier because you do get to play your greatest hits. So, you know, a comedian every couple of years has to start over and how fun would it be if you had your born to run? Sure. And you could enjoy this period of your life. just having the, you know, the result of your entire life's work.

And you can just do it. And the crowd is just enraptured about it. With a comedian, like, I got to write a whole new thing. Yeah, I know. I know. And also with, but there is something to be said about jokes because jokes do last as long as anything else, if not longer than music. I mean, there are jokes that you enjoy telling because, you know, you know how to do it.

And they could be old as fuck. Like, you know, if someone ask you, what's your favorite old joke, you have one, and you tell it. And it's like, wow, that thing's got life. It's always going to have life. Well, the old timers used to keep the same act their entire career. Well, so they were able to do it. So maybe we all made a mistake by thinking we needed to keep riding the set. Okay, we're going to switch to a lighter story.

You know, I tend to go heavier. Yeah. And this is a clip from the great Molly Shannon. I hopped a plane when I was 12. We told my dad me and my friend, Anne, and we're like, we're going to have a plane to New York. And he was like, he dared us. Yeah. How old were you?

We were like 12. Oh, good. That's good. We went to the airport and we had ballet outfits on and we put our hair in buns. And we wanted to look really innocent. And this was, again, when flying was really easy, you didn't need your tickets to get through. Apparently, you didn't need an adult either. And we told my dad and we were just like, we saw there were two flights. We were either going to go to San Francisco or New York.

And we thought, oh, let's go to New York. It's leaving early. So we went. We said to the stewardess, we just want to say goodbye to my sister. Could we go on the plane? And she was like, sure. And then she led us on. And it was a really empty flight because it was out of Cleveland, Ohio.

And we sat back there, and then all of a sudden you just hear like, the plane takes off. And we were like, and we had like little ballet habits and buns. And I was like, Hail, I'm very full of grace. I'm sorry. Blessing her, my husband is now the hour. And then the stewardess that had given us permission to, to go say goodbye to my sister came by to ask if we wanted snacks or beverages

and she was like, can I get you ladies something to eat? She looked like she was like oh, motherfucker. You know, so she so we wondered if we were going to get in trouble but she ended up not telling anyone and then when we landed in New York City she was like, bye ladies.

Have a nice trip. I just It's such an exciting story, but the irresponsibility of all the adults in this story is somehow undermining my appreciation of it. You were 12-year-old girls in fucking ballet outfits, and everybody's sort of like, have a good time.

What world was that? It was a crazy world. What did you do in New York? And now you're just saying, we got drunk and we went to it. Well, again, because I had a crazy childhood, we called my dad, we were like, we did it. And he was like, oh, dad, Molly!

Oh, geez, we'll try to, so basically, Basically, he couldn't say. Try to what? He didn't know what to do. He said, try to see if you could stay, go find a hotel that you could stay in. Oh, my God. Me and Mary, my sister will come meet you, we'll drive there. So basically we were like, all right, we'll try to find a hotel.

But he was kind of excited because he liked crazy stuff. But basically, we didn't have that much. We just had our ballet bags and a little bit of cash that we went to a diner, and we dined and dash, and we stole things. We were like, little con artists. Wait, did you actually make it to the city? We made it to the city. I was like, how do you get to a Rockefeller Center? Because I just seen TV.

And you're still in your ballet outfit. Ballet outfit? Nobody said, are you girls lost? Nothing like that? No, nothing. They went into a bar and they got drink up, ladies. Yeah, yeah. So we did try to go to hotels, and my dad would call and ask,

could they just stay there until we get there, and none of the hotels wanted to be responsible? Oh, my God. So he was like, all right, you got to come home. And he was like, but I'm not paying for it. So try to hop on one on the way back. So we tried to hop on many planes, but the flights were all so crowded. So we ended up having to have him pay for it, and he made us pay for him, pay it all back with our babysitting money.

So that was the big punishment? Yeah, there was no punishment? No, I know. I mean, clearly, was there any sort of like, oh, you survived? I was just testing yet. He loved that kind of stuff. Like I said, he was wild. He used to, in his drinking days, he would, you know, go to bars.

somebody didn't let him in, he'd be like, damn it. You know, he'd go into the bar and knock all the glasses down. He was like a kind of guy who could maybe get arrested. Like, it was crazy. I love the sort of strange, nostalgic excitement you have for this

borderline child abuse. He's complicated. Oh, now you're going to say that? Yeah, there's just one story that's complicated. But he was also a very loving parent. I think it's complicated. He was also really supportive. and kind of made me feel like I could do anything.

And so in that way, it felt really free and wild. But then in other ways, I had to learn the rules of, like, how regular people live. From other people, I'm taking. Yeah. Like, professionals. Like people, you pay. You know what I mean. I do know what you mean.

I have them in my life. Wow. You had a lot of live ones. In the beginning, you stopped doing them. Yeah. Did you enjoy doing the live? versions? Yeah, of course, you know, because I think I'm even better at it now of like having the freedom of mind to just, you know, be funny and be, because I can be pretty quick. And I know how to

get laughed, but the live ones are great because it was really about that. You know, we knew going in that, you know, this is going to be an entertaining show and you want to do it. So you elevate the guests and then, you know, kind of carried along with being funny. And there were, there were panels during those live ones that were great. I remember I was never more thrilled than to have Ira Glass and Artie laying on the same panel. I thought I'd done something miraculous. Do you ever wish that you did do an official TV talk show? Sure.

I mean, I did a pilot for one after Short Attention Span Theater, you know, that before the Daily Show, which ended up being the show that became that. But I did sort of a straight sit-down talk show pilot. And I remember the guests were Chappelle, very young Chappelle, and Stephen Weber. You know, we did two episodes. I think it was, you know, called the Mark Merrim Project. But it was straight up, you know, sit and talk. And I don't know if I had the chops end, you know,

but I certainly do now that they're no longer, you know, viable or going to be in existence much longer. Well, those formats didn't allow for what you did. No, it would, none of them did. You know, even when people talk about long-form people like Dick Cavett or somebody, I mean, the closest one would be like a Charlie Rose situation, that's not an audience and that, you know, I just assumed do this. But I think there was a way, it was sort of more like what Letterman did on Netflix, but he had, you know, the gravitas of being Letterman.

And do you, are you satisfied with the path that revealed itself? Totally. You know, totally because we dictated it, you know, me and Brendan. And there's something about not being beholden to cameras. or that timing or the sort of elevated atmosphere of being on camera and then being on camera in front of an audience, that I think that the intimacy that gets created here is something unique. And it's unique even more so than, you know, say, Terry Gross, who's the best,

but she does a different thing. And even when I recently talked to her a couple weeks ago, there was something more candid about her approach. with me, but I was never doing that kind of interview. So once it started to unfold that I was doing something that didn't really exist in any space with some consistency, I sort of had a pride in it and accepted it. You know, initially I was, I kind of always thought it was going to, you know, diminish my stand-up.

And so it was really kind of like, that's part of my interrupting style was like, no, I'm a comic and I got to be in here. This is about me, you know. And but that was different. And now all the podcasts are switching to video. I mean, when will they all start getting an audience? Will it all reverse itself? I don't know how it works, but I have noticed that because of the contraction in mainstream show business

and the ability for people to sort of build their own separate show businesses, that you get these bubble audiences, some of them are huge and some of them aren't as huge. but I do, you do start to realize, and I'm sure you do as well, that the quality is, it lowers the bar tremendously to what a show looks like. And sadly, I think people will just adapt to that

and not really take into mind just how many talented people and, you know, what goes into making a good talk show. Like, I think they're just dealing with, like, this is enough, what else do we need? And so that whole sort of context of what these shows were, which were big, beautiful show business, you know, they just don't give a fuck. And you're just getting sort of afternoon radio of some form or another. But the audience has shifted.

And they just don't care because everything is disposable and fleeting and segmented. So, you know, all that show business built has, you know, been overshadowed by amateurs. And people are fine with that. Well, it is, you know, like kind of, you know, on one level there's, you know, a lot of voices are allowed in, but at some point you need the lunatics who want to really take it to the next level creatively. Yeah. And to not just do the simple version of it. The thing that we all loved about Letterman or Conan was. Or Larry Sanders.

Yeah, that they just, they grinded to find ways to do it the way no one had ever done it. Well, yeah. And we're not really seeing that yet, although it could happen where. I guess. Someone goes, well, what else can you do here? It's so cheap to do it. What other kind of comedy can you do? I haven't seen much of that at all lately, except for Nathan Fielder, where it's just sort of like, I don't even know what that is, but it's something. He's going deep in a way. We think we're going deep. We're not even close. But using the sort of tools of money and network support to execute a vision that is truly

unique is rare. I do think that what undermines the possibility of what you're talking about is just laziness and the need to chase content generation. Yeah, and it's hard. It's like really it's hard work. You know, we did

13 episodes of the Ben Stiller Show back in the day. And I still say that was the hardest six months of my life. Yeah. I mean, we would be shooting all day, going to the sound mix at 1 o'clock in the morning trying to write these things And it was as exhausting, like, where you had nothing left.

But it was fun. But there's a drive of a collective to try to do something new and great. Like, I don't know if that exists among, you know, at least 80 to 90 percent of what's being generated out there outside the umbrella of mainstream show business. So I don't know. Well, one super original voice. who had a great show called Lady Dynamite, and you had around a bunch of times,

was the great Maria Bamford, who I'm working on a documentary about. You know, like I had a relationship where a person was, I was frightened. I started to get frightened. Of him. Of him. And friends and family said, hey, wow, what's,

are you okay and stuff like that? So then, but in that, you know, the element, you know, of control is like, yeah, I think I kept thinking, oh, well, I want to have, I'm going to fix it, which is a totally like, I'm going to, I'm going to either do the right thing so the person won't have, get enraged anymore, which was, I was a rager? Yeah, yeah, where I couldn't, I couldn't do the right thing. I couldn't figure out all the things that I needed to do to, to, to, so it wouldn't happen

again. But it would always keep happening. And then it was like, well, yeah. You know what? Oh my God. And I learned to do, I got better with it where I wouldn't react as much to it. And I would just kind of be like, oh, this person is. You tried to detach?

Yeah, detached with love, you know, going like a, you know, just repeating back what they said and saying, I hear this is what you're saying. And, and, but then it is so upsetting over time that it's like, uh, you know what? I got to let him go because I'm, I'm feeling so, feeling so bad. but also to say that that person is wonderful, like has incredibly wonderful qualities, and like, but I felt like I wasn't helping anymore. Like I was starting to.

And also you felt probably, it's emotional abuse. Yeah, yeah. And you start to lose touch with yourself. Lose to yourself. And also I felt like my own possibility of me getting abuse, you know, me going, you know, and it's like, oh God, you know, Like, I, yeah, so I, and I think some element of it was like that whole idea of I'm going to help somebody. Well, that's, that's my problem.

I was the guy that would walk into an uncontrollable rage and, you know, not stop until my ex-wife was crying. Yeah. And then I'd feel bad. And then I'd apologize, but it doesn't go away after a certain point of time. It doesn't go away. And I, for what, I mean, I've read a bunch of books on a know. Oh, maybe you can help me. Because, well, yeah, my mom is a, it works for a domestic violence center.

And, you know, domestic. I think what I've read is that my boyfriend at the time, his dad had been physically abused as he had seen physical abuse. And I think on some level equating emotional or physical abuse with intimacy. Also, they said, you know, so that if I love this person on a subconscious level, this is what's going to go down. and they can handle my rage, you know, if they love me. Huh. And then, you know, it's kind of... Was he physically abusive?

One occasion, one occasion. And that was it. No, no. No, it wasn't actually, which is super sad. Yeah. You know, I was like... And actually, then it was very classic violence where it was like denied that he did it. Said, oh, that wasn't me.

I was like, well, oh, you know, that whole, like, gaslighting, like, oh, you're crazy. You know, like, and I was like, oh, oh, okay. Yeah. And, um. Okay, quietly. Okay, I can't even go in the other room. No, no, but I didn't get that because, um, because you love the person. Right.

You know, you love the person and you do respect them on a lot of levels. But, you know, again, nobody is all bad or all good. That's right. Lovely, loving, super loving person. We had a lot of good times, too, so it's confusing, I think. The fact that I did that while I was driving. It's always interesting. That's the only driving one you did.

No. There's another one. There was one with Pepitone, and there's a couple intros I did in the car. The intro to Robin, I think, might have been in the car, because I did it in real time driving to his house. But you were talking on another show that the audience that you have for this show, you know, that in addition to being entertained, there are a lot of people that, you know, Maria, something like Maria opening up about this might help them look for the help they need to deal with their issues. and a lot of people dealt with their sobriety as a result of you talking about yours

and a lot of people talking about how they got sober. I just, well, totally. I don't know. I didn't expect that and it's always very heartening. You know, a lot of emails about helping people get sober, helping people not kill themselves, you know, learning about things that they didn't know other people had or experienced.

It's been a huge part of the impact of the show. But I just fucking love her. Like I can't say enough. She's the funniest. Totally. And I say it anytime anyone asks me, who's the funniest comedian? I'm like, seriously? Maria Bamford.

There is no one funnier than that. Go on Spotify and just do a random playlist of Maria Bamford and have your mind blown. It's just like I remember a couple years ago I hadn't really seen her in years. And we were on a co-headlining gig for like, I think the Toronto Comedy Festival. And, you know, our venue was like out away from everything. And it was this old weird venue. But we were both doing an hour or whatever. I hadn't seen her in years.

And I just both nights, I'm like, what am I even doing? What's the point? Well, the funny thing is we're putting together the documentary now. There's footage of her when she first started, and the whole thing was fully formed. Sure. Just her way of seeing the world. Yeah. And it was like outside of stand-up in a way.

It kind of bordered on what you would more classify as performance art. But she hammered it out in club. She is a stand-up. And it's just that, you know, the fact that people can dismiss her because, like, I don't get it. You know, she's weird. It's like, you fucking idiots. You know, they're like, you know, she's like Jonathan Winters level. Yeah.

Well, people, you got a lot of play when you said she would be on your Mount Rushmore of comedians. Yeah, totally. Oh, yeah, with Jesse. Well, the funny thing is about the impact it has on people. It's a very funny dice story. because, you know, despite when anyone thinks of dice, I fucking love him. Like, because, you know, outside of whatever he's known for, just him talking is the best. Like, I used to, he would come into the OR, this is like, you know, not that long ago, just to, you know, talk about his day.

And he doesn't, he definitely has a way of looking at things. That's funny. Yeah. But I'm in the hallway with him. It's not that long ago. And he's telling me like, yeah, we're going to do the garden. You know, I got big things. always the big things.

He's talking, and some guy comes up to me, and he goes, I'm sorry to interrupt you guys, but Mark, I was going to email you, and it's just, I'm happy that I'm running into you in person, because I just got to thank you, you know, you got me through a real dark time, and, and I don't know if I would have gotten through it,

you know, if you hadn't been there, and I just really wanted to thank you for that. And I'm like, yeah, sure, I'm glad to help out, and that guy walks away, and just goes, I never get that. I get, you're the reason I lost my job. You're the reason my wife left me. You're the reason I got kicked out of school. Well, I used to see Dice when I was a kid. I was a dishwasher at a comedy club in like

1983. He was just doing impressions back then. He was just doing like Jerry Lewis and John Travolta. So I saw the whole evolution of how it turned into that. But he would kill doing his impressions. He's got this very kind of like alpha Jewish confidence. He's so funny right now, like the act. is pretty amazing. And his Instagram, if you want to see something super weird, just him walking the streets, walking up to people. It's really funny. Are you Mildred?

Joanna? Or when he's got Lovett walking around with him? Seems like it takes work. He's really putting in some time. Yeah. Let's do one more. Okay. Well, you know, one of the reasons to stop is because you've gotten all of the white whales of show business.

So I thought I would play one of them, a person no one gets that you got, which is, you know, the legendary, nobody better, Albert Brooks. Oh, that's great. That moment when the room service comes to the door, he's like, should I just keep talking? So we get a meeting with Jack Benny on Tuesday. He dies that Friday, which nobody knew meeting him. Yeah.

but we're sitting in his office and I say to him, so Mr. Benny, I'm doing a record album. And on this record album, I would love if you would do something because we're doing this old time radio and I never got any other word out. My hero says to me three days before he dies, radio, radio, that's all I'm remembered for. I've done everything. I've done television. I've done movies. And I'm going, I don't even know you from radio. Oh my God.

No, no. I know that. I know that. And Harry and I left. I drove home, Mark, with a profound, maybe one of the most profound lessons of my life, which is you better not hold on to anything. Yeah.

Because if the king, if the god of comedy in my mind, doesn't even know three days before he dies how important he was if he's still going. And, you know, you and I get it as we get older. It's happening to be now. Okay. So you just can't go there. If you try to hold on to your life, you're going to be really sad.

You can't do it. It's impossible. How was that interviewing Albert? The best. The funny thing was he didn't want to be. He didn't want to come here. He didn't want me to go there. So we're in that hotel, you know, down on Santa Monica, that old pretty hotel.

I forget what it's called. Someone's Victorian looking or kind of deco. And it was just such a thrill, you know, because he, you know, he's just so fucking funny. And, you know, such a powerful presence in my mind. I remember it was a, I'd been trying to get him for years. And there was that moment at, at Shandling's Memorial. You know, everyone's leaving. And he's wearing that golf hat.

And I'm just walking. I just feel these two hands on my shoulders. And he says, let's do it now. And is that how it happened? No. That took years more. Years later. Yeah, I just was so thrilled.

Because he's one of those guys where it's so effortlessly funny. It's so wired into him. And, you know, he can't help it. Even if he's not trying, if you love him, it's just the whole thing's going to be the greatest. Who are the other ones? that you didn't get. You're trying to get Adam Sandler. Yeah, but of that generation, you know, I don't know.

Like, you know, I'm sure these people I've forgotten. There were some old-timers that I would have liked to have done. Mike Nichols would have been good. That would have been good, yeah. And like Shecky Green, there was an effort to do that. But, you know, we had an exchange, me and Shecky, and that was kind of brutal. You'd try to get Elaine May?

Yeah, I think I did try to get Elaine May, didn't I? I don't know. I don't know. Is she still around? She's around. I wonder why that hasn't happened. Her daughter's amazing. Oh, yeah. No, I was very proud of the fact that I got to guest edit an issue of Vanity Fair. Yeah.

And they let me pitch articles. And I said, what about an interview with Nichols and May? And they did pull it off. Yeah. And it was the last interview that they did. How was that? And they hadn't done one in like 20, 30 years. Oh, wow.

It's just a great article. Well, the other person that's a great article. you interviewed and did one of the great interviews with was Gary Shanling. I started the box about 11 years ago. Right. Just started the box. And the reason is, twofold, is one is out of my comfort zone completely. Never was a kid who got into fights.

And so the idea of really being in a ring where someone's going to start throwing punches. And then the really main reason, the other one, is that you don't have time. to think. So it becomes completely intuitive. Someone's throwing a punch you have to counter or you move or you get hit. Step back or you move in. Right. But you can't think about it. And when you land a punch, you can't think about it. Are you getting good at it?

Well, I'm sure getting better than I was. Yeah. Which is better than getting worse. Do you wear headgear or do you? I do. I wear headgear that goes from my head down to my knees. It's quite a long. It's the biggest one they've ever seen. It's weird because hearing these back again in the moment. I don't realize how, you know, close there, like these are genuine tones.

You know, he's speaking as himself. There's not, you know, he's not, there's not public talk. And it seems to happen a lot. Because, I mean, you know him. He was definitely, you know, not, you know, he was just all there. Yeah, he could be guarded. Yeah. In a lot of situations.

Yeah. But when he opened up, he would really open up. Yeah, yeah. And it got pretty good there. And again, because as much as. I love him, you know, I wasn't dug in to shanling as like one of my guys necessarily. So when that took that spiritual turn where he got comfortable and started to engage with me or whatever my situation was, it was pretty is exciting. And I know he's like one of the funniest guys ever, but it took me a long time to really get it.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's a unique person who's, you know, who's struggling. Yeah. And he's the funniest, but he's also struggling. And you never know what you're going to get. With him. Yeah.

One day you might get like the gregarious version and another day he might be shut down. Oh, really. And so it was just, uh, he was on a ride. I feel like Gary being gone really left for me like the biggest hole. Yeah. Where all the time you're like, ah, man, you know, we feel his absence. Yeah. All the time.

Yeah. He was so good and so sweet and wise. And the struggle that he was on to make himself whole or self-accepting or any of that was so earnest and vigilant. You know, like, this has got to work. Whatever he landed on spiritually, it's like, has got to work. Some of the stories that you told that I remember, one was you telling the long Sam Kesson. Oh, yeah. What made you leave town?

Yeah, I did that recently. Yeah, that's a good one. You pissed on your bed, Marin. You had a period where you had a lot of comedy store people on, you had Jimmy Schubert. Yeah. Who really painted a picture of what that place was like. So funny.

The first time I did mushrooms was with you. We had a good day. That's right. We had a great day. And we started doing them. I remember I never done mushrooms before. And I was like, oh, man, you're going to love these, man. You got to love it.

And Rod's going, all right, man. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we had planned them. whole day. And I remember we just started getting off and all this is great. It's great. And then out of nowhere out of the blue, Sam shows up. Kenison pops in like a, like he was like a trip coach. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He goes, oh, you guys are doing mushrooms. Oh, you're going to love him, man. He was and he was not. And he was just, like, just as he was saying stuff, you were like, time's going to go by real slow. You go, oh, my God, it's going to go by real slow. Then you pull out

a joint. And he goes, now, let's get you guys, get off. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Smoke this joint. That's going to make everything all right. And we went, all right, man. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it was like that. And then it was, I mean, I swear, man, we had the best day just laughing. I know that we went, work. Yeah, yeah, and then we went. Back to the store.

Yeah, but we did it about two o'clock at the afternoon. By that time, nine o'clock, rolled away, we could go down. I forgot that Sam showed up and was actually, you know, kind and giving. Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, man. I mean, he was, you know. He definitely understood that world, you know. Yeah, yeah, but you're right.

I mean, he had his moments of that kind of, you know, behavior. I mean, you know. I remember the one moment where he pulled out something that looked like a, like a jar this big, like a jelly jar with cocaine in it. And we're standing in one of the rooms at Cresthill. He's like, you want to bump? And I'm like, yeah, what do you want me to do?

Where should I do it? And he said, put your thumb in between your finger like that. I learned that from the mob. I'm like, okay, I don't even know if I want to know the rest of that story. Yeah. I mean, it was, but I remember, you would sit around that table. Oh, yeah. And me and you, of all the guys that were up there hanging on.

I mean, we were talking about comedy until all hours of the night. I know. What do you think about this? I know. Sam explained a slow burn. I mean, were we better people for it? Probably not. But I mean, you know, we were, but we were interested.

We were willing to learn, man, stay up. And how do you come over that? And what do you do for that? And, you know, that's funny. That was your agenda. Mine was like, what does Satan look like? Oh, yeah, yeah. I thought he was some sort of black magician, some sort of wizard that had secret

fucking wisdom. He was just a doucheback like everybody else. Just a fucking comic. Just a flawed fucking human being with fucking problems, just like the rest of us. I needed to do that for myself, the comedy store stuff, because, you know, I was a young guy, and I was kind of out of my mind and on drugs. And once I sort of emmeshed myself with that place and the history, I was haunted by it forever. That it profoundly changed the wiring of my brain, you know, just what it meant, what it represented, the history of the place, that all the pictures on the wall, you know, being on Coke and losing my brain. you know, just what it meant, what it represented, the history of the place,

that all the pictures on the wall, you know, being on Coke and losing my brain there, and, you know, integrating the comedy story into some sort of mythic significance. And I really had to talk to all those guys because my relationship with a lot of them was with those pictures on the wall and also just with the idea of them. Like I just, like I said to you before we started, I had this weird thing like with that, book about old movie stars. I didn't like the old movies, but I just look at these faces. And then realizing that all of comedy came through there, all of modern comedy, it just seemed to be like a great template for me to sort of have some, you know, answers about that place and about

about my place there and about my history. And like this was like, I've got Mitzi Shores' driver's license, that her last driver's license. because, you know, I did Binder's documentary, and that was just like laying on the floor in her office. Oh, you told that story to Letterman. Yeah, yeah. I got to show you something. Hold on.

This might weird you out. I seem to be alone now. I don't know why I have this, but I can tell you how I got it. Okay. But for some reason, it means a lot to me. This is the driver's license for, oh, my gosh. I know. Well, a crime has been committed here.

This is Mitsy Shore's driver's license. It is, man. Mark, how did you? I mean, first of all, why were you rifling through her purse? That's right. Here's the thing, you know, Binder, Mike. Peter Shore kind of, like, I interviewed Binder here, right? And he was like, I want to talk about the comedy store.

And then I started to say, how could you not want to? That's where you come from. And then he started talking about it. And then it kind of got into his brain. And then Peter Short reeled him in to make a documentary about the place. Right. Right? Right. You know, he reached out to you? Yes. Well, he had... I think I'm actually visiting with him tomorrow. Great. So he wanted me to be there when he did a bunch of footage in Mitzie's office and they were going to go through some stuff. He had permission and he wanted me to be the guy to be in there with him. And as I was walking out, this driver's license was on the floor. And I'm like, I think I have to have that. Wow. It feels a little weird and a little wrong, but...

No, no. Now, with that explanation, it feels just right. And Sammy Shore just died. Yeah. Did you know him, though? I must have met him, but by the time I came to California, he was out of that business. Right. Yeah. Not out of comedy, but out of the comedy store business.

Right, yeah, you lost the store to Mitzie. See, like for me, didn't this give you the chills a little bit? Yes, absolutely. First of all, she's very young looking in that, and I only remember her. she was stricken after this time. Yeah. And I don't remember her looking that hardy. She reminds me of when she was when I was younger, yeah.

Like she had such a, the whole place had such a hold on my mind when it was so fragile. And it took years to sort of shake that thing, the mythic and paranoid thing. And now it's just like the only place I work in L.A. and I'm so happy to be comfortable there. When you're young, it's also about that they're the gatekeepers of your dream. And so there's this place and everyone wants to do the thing you want to do. Most of them are better because they've just been doing it longer. And there's this one person that gets to decide if you're allowed to do it.

And I didn't have the version where I was on drugs part of it. But the pressure to go, can I belong here? Can I earn it? Can I be better than a lot of these people to climb to the next life? level, that pressure. And then it's also that youthful madness that it might be possible to pull it off. Yeah. I don't know if I had that climbing thing or even the competitive thing, but I did know that was kind of lost and that for some reason, you know, being part of that world was very specific. And at the time I was there or when I came back to LA in 2002, like it was just this

haunted shithole that nobody wanted to go to. It got to a point where people were like, why would you go to the comedy. Like, it represented some darkness, which I always knew was there, and it's necessary for that place to exist. I told Peter Shore recently, I'm like, you know, you got to be careful with that place because you know as well as I do. It's very susceptible to charismatic leaders that a personality can take that place over because she, like, enabled it. And I was there during the Kenneson and Dice period, you know, which happened kind of back to back. But I just wanted to be, I thought it was an exclusive, amazing community, the coffee store. With the best folks. Oh, yeah, man. It got to the point where I was, like, so dug in there and, like,

living in her house, the one she owned and walking down the club in the morning to make coffee behind the bar and shit. But, like, you know, it would just be that thing where, you know, I'd be living at that place and be like, hey, Joey Gaynor. There he is. You know, like, Who knows Charlie Gainer? You know? It was just like, these were the pictures on the wall, and now I was part of it. Yeah. I can't imagine the addiction part in it also.

My addiction was just, can I succeed, workaholism? Yeah. But I was afraid to be high or drunk. Yeah. Because I don't think I felt confident enough in what I was doing that I could be that vulnerable to be out of my head. Yeah. I just, I kind of thrived on it because it connected me

with this bunch of people that, you know, in retrofect, it's all very dangerous. You know, but this idea that you're at the table, you know, with these wizards who are going to impart something on you. But also very funny and very, it was out of control and weird. But I was, I was all about it. But as a way to bond with those people because you would do drugs with that. Sure. And also, you had a secret.

You know, to be bouncing around that place as a door guy would coke in your pocket, it's the fucking best. And you also you had Lauren Michaels on the show, which I always thought was a big moment because there were so many episodes where you recounted meeting with Lauren and not getting weekend updated. It became so mythic in your mind. And then when you finally talked to Lorne, the fact that Lauren remembered it. Yeah. But also to him, it's like he's explaining like, here's how showbiz really works. Yeah.

Like you don't get that the decision isn't based on what you think it's based on. Right. I came in here. I waited an hour or so. Tracy Morgan was out there waiting with me. Do you know what day the week it was? We were in production? Maybe. I wish I remembered that. I, you know, I decided before I got here, I was smoking a lot of pot at the time, but I thought maybe I shouldn't smoke too much. Uh-huh. And I got here and Tracy Morgan was there and his hair looked very shiny. The hair was in very good shape. Yes. And I waited a while and I was reading a Bruce Wagner book. I remember, and I came in here.

And you were... Had he been on stage the night that you performed? Who, Tracy? Yeah. I don't know if he was. I mean, I know that we went to stand-up New York. Right, I remember. Anyways, I come in here, in my recollection, there were books over here.

Uh-huh. Was there? It's probably pretty much the same as it was always. Right. Steve Higgins was there. I walk in and you said, um, uh, how was Conan last night? Did they laugh? Did they laugh? Did they laugh?

It's better when they laugh. And that was nice. It was nice. I'm scared. And you'd done Conan the night before. Right, right. Okay. And then I sat down and then you used a zoo analogy for comedians.

Have you used that before? Monkeys and all that. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So that's a regular thing. No, it wasn't a regular thing. It was just by sort of beginning to piece together where comedians stood in Hollywood.

Right. The lions are scary. When you go to the zoo, the first thing you want to see is the line. lion because the lion is the king of the jungle and and it has, it's regal. Yeah. And the second thing you want to see the bears, because they're the

strongest and the fastest. And the third, you want to see the monkeys because they're funny and occasionally one of them jerks off. Right. And what I said, I don't think you had added the jerk off line you. Because I said, as long as they're not throwing their shit at you. Yeah. Got nothing. Yeah. Got no laugh. No. From you.

Well, I would have gone softer, as you saw. Yeah, yeah. Exactly. And Steve Higgins was like, mm. It's not going well already. And did you know Steve before? Kind of. I met him once or twice.

Like on the scene. Right. And then you just looked at me for a little while. Uh-huh. And Steve actually went Lauren. And you said, it's important to look in someone's eyes. You can see a lot in someone's eyes.

And then I was trying to exude some star quality of some kind, which was not successful. God, you really remember this. Yeah. I remember it. And then I, in my recollection, there was a smaller bowl of candy. And, yeah, that's the Tootsie Roll one. But it's a jolly rancher in my mind.

No, it would have been Tootsie Rolls. Well, I remember I took one. And at that moment, you shot a look at Steve and I thought I'd failed the candy test. Oh, yeah, no, no. No candy. There was no alternative candy. There was just the one. There was popcorn probably there or there.

No, I didn't get popcorn. Yeah. And that was sort of like my experience with it. And then I waited. and nothing happened, and I'd heard a couple of things over the years. I'm not hung up on this. No, no, no, but where were we in 95? Was this when...

Norm was about, was renegotiating his contract? But it was interesting, because at that time, remember, we were doing alternative comedy. Very much so, yeah, yeah. Because, and I mean, no offense, but you said, you sat, one of the first things you said was, I don't know what you think you're doing down there below 14th Street, but it doesn't matter. Right. I was trying to be helpful and save you a few years.

Okay. Yeah. Yeah, well, I appreciate it. No, I would just be playful. I know. That was a very revealing and amazing time for me to finally get to talk to learn and to put that story to rest

that it was really just a decision-making process based on an ensemble. Well, that was what he told me, and that's fine. And but but more of what I came out of that with, whether it's his his calculating presentation of himself or not, is that this guy is a guy that works at this building. I mean, you know, he's a billionaire and he's produced amazing stuff his whole life and he's a, you know, a cultural icon and the show is. But, you know, just seeing him at this age, you know, wandering the same halls, you know, since the early 70s. or mid-70s, it's kind of crazy. Because he's a guy who goes to work.

He's a TV producer. Yeah. But like I had made him into this mythic, almost God who decides people's, you know, future, which he is. But it's really, it's not in the sense that he's, you know, vengeful. It's just that, you know, he's got an eye for fucking talent. And, you know, he has, he runs the show. But he is essentially a guy who works at 30 Rock.

Who someone gives him 30 sketches and he goes, these eight. Right. He has a job. That's right. And he's standing there watching it unfold. And so it was humanizing. You're one of a 10,000 decisions he's making. That's right.

And it was all very humanizing, you know, but after, you know, all is said and done, I know as a grown person and I've known it for a few years that I wasn't ready for that job. There was no fucking way. Yeah. You know, I didn't, I had no control. over my talent. I had no, you know, sense of who I was, really, as a performer. And it was, I was nowhere near ready for the job. So Lorne was right again. He was. And the way he told me he made the decision was, I thought, diplomatic, and it was easy on me. But, you know, because he could have said, you weren't ready, and I knew that. And I would have took that. But the idea that he's sort of like,

here's a lot of things that are happening and, you know, everything has to, you know, I'm like, that was a nice thing for him do. It's nice gesture. I'm glad we got to do this. Yeah, it's great. Listening to yourself. It was great, man. I think I should go back and listen to a few episodes. Yeah, I'll tell you the good ones.

Yeah, you got, there's like a whole bunch more there. I'll go check them out because I trust your opinion. There's a whole bunch more. Maybe we could end on Mr. Norm McDonald's. Oh, please. Talking about Norm things. Aren't she still afraid everything? I am.

I mean, I try to hide it and deal with it, but on a day-to-day basis, I can must you. No, I'm not afraid of everything. I'm afraid of very few things. Like what? Illness, death. Yeah. How'd you get peace of mind out of the other shit? Well, when I was very, this is a weird thing that happened to me when I was young.

Yeah. I don't know if this means anything. Let's try it. I remember it. But it was a moment I had that was, it wasn't religious or epinephic or anything, but it transformed me to some degree is that I was, oh, it was fucking so, afraid of everything. And if I went to a store, I'd have to walk around forever before I could even face a person in the store to buy a pack of gum. I don't know why the fuck I was like this.

But anyways, when I was nine, there was a blind, we lived in rural Ontario, and there was a blind friend of my dad's that I had to, he said, take him to the store. And I was like, what the fuck? Like, I have to take this blind fucker? And I'm already shy on ship. So I'm taking him to the store. And then the fucker wants me to explain everything. describe everything to him. Yeah. So I'm like, there's some grass over here, and now there's a lamp post,

and this guy's all happy. Oh, what's about the lamp post? I mean, it's just a lamp post. So it goes on and on, but something happened to me during, it sounds bizarre, but something happened to me where I was actually,

instead of always looking inward, which I think I'd always done before that one time, I was looking outward. Anyways, while I was talking to him, I suddenly had a sort of hysteria. Like I was laughing.

I started laughing and stuff. And I don't even know why I'm remembering this, but I started laughing about everything. And everything seemed like very, very funny to me. And then a couple of weeks later, I saw a homeless guy and he was talking about, he was talking to me. And he was talking to me about John D. Rockefeller.

He's like, I was at John D. Rockefeller's funeral and all this shit. And I was laughing at him and shit. And then he started laughing. and I was like, it's all fucking crazy shit. Like, something came to me where I started. And so now I find everything funny except like fucking real serious. Like I'm no fear of going on stage right about death and shit. Right.

But the other thing I, but the problem with laughing is I will get, it will build with hysteria sometimes that I have to crank a couple of benzos to prevent a panic attack. Really? Yeah, I can get panic. You laugh yourself into an anxiety attack? Absolutely, yeah. I start laughing and then it gets out of control, like hysterical.

It's, and I still have extreme sensitivity to things. Like I can, not to, not to life things, but to like literature or art or something like that. I have incredible sensitivity. I kind of have to stay away from it. Like what's an example? Like a painting or a... Yeah, fucking paintings. Like, I don't know anything about art, nothing at all.

Really? But I have had fucking experiences that have been so hard on me. Like, one time I was in New York, and somebody dragged me to a fucking art museum, which I hate art. And I was looking at this picture, this girl, and I was, like, falling in love with her. She was so fucking beautiful, this fucking girl in this fucking picture.

And then a guide was telling me, the fucking thing was written, you know, drawn in the 16th century. Obviously, this lady was dead. long dead. And here I am fucking in love with her. Yeah. And so I'm like, ah, fuck it. I was like so hard on me for so many days. So I try not to, it sounds crazy, right? Not really. But I can be very, uh...

It sounds like that's a very good painting. It was an incredible painting. Well, thank you for having me. And thanks for doing the show. I enjoyed the show. I enjoyed the show. For those 16 years, I enjoyed it. I was always thrilled that you were a fan of the show. And we've had conversations and your input and excitement about interviews was always something that propelled me in in times of doubt. Oh, I appreciate that.

It's my favorite type of thing. And let me tell you the biggest tribute I have for you, my tribute to you, is that this show is so amazing that I didn't do a podcast. I kind of knew you were on the fence for a while. I knew it couldn't be topped. Well, you did it when you were a kid. I did it when I was 50. I tried to invent it.

A very early version. Thanks, buddy. Yeah, that was fun. There you go. A lot of stuff. Hope you enjoyed that. You can pre-order Judd's book, Comedy Nerd, a lifelong obsession

and stories and pictures. It comes out October 28th. Hang out for a minute, folks. Hey, you guys, if you want all those old episodes Judd was playing for me, you can get a subscription to the full WTF archives, which gets you every WTF episode ad-free. including the first five years, which are not available in the free feed right now,

as well as every bonus episode we ever did. There are about 300 of those. Go to supercast.com and put WTF in the search bar, or go to WTFpod.com and click on WTFPlus. And a reminder before we go, this podcast is hosted by ACAST, and here's that new telecaster on that beautiful telecaster bridge pickup. Smunking LaFonda, Cat Angels everywhere. Don't know.