WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 522 - Pat Healy

Episode Date: August 7, 2014

Actor Pat Healy is coming off a string of acclaimed performances in challenging films like Compliance and Cheap Thrills. But how do those complex roles compare with another from his past? That role being the roommate of Marc Maron's ex-wife. Pat and Marc talk about those strange days when their lives intersected, as well as Pat's earlier years at the vaunted Steppenwolf Theatre in Chicago. Plus, Pat busts out a killer Werner Herzog impression. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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fucking ears what the fucksters what the fuckasaurus rexes yeah how are you mark maron here that was short and sweet that opening, that opening. That was the way that was going to go. I'm in the garage, as usual, sitting here in my chair. Got the garage door open. It's nice and sunny. It's airy here in L.A. It's not too hot. It's pleasant. From what I understand, we're in the middle of a significant drought. It's not stopping me from taking a shower though. Am I hurting the country by taking a shower? I don't know. It's weird when things like that are reported that there's a serious drought and I turn on my faucet and water's still coming out of it so it doesn't quite register with me. Is that selfish? Is that ridiculous? In my mind, if there's a drought,

you turn on the faucet and it's just sort of like drip, drip, or it just goes. mind if there's a drought you turn on the faucet and it's just sort of like drip drip or it just goes today on the show pat healy pat healy is a great actor pat healy and i sort of have a history uh you might know pat healy from he's done a lot of work actually uh he was he was around the table and here and there in the assassination of jesse james by the coward robert ford he was he was around the table and here and there in the assassination of Jesse James by the coward Robert Ford. He was also in Rescue Dawn, which was that Werner Herzog movie. He's done a lot of TV work. He you would recognize him and his new movie. This crazy fucking movies in cheap thrills, which I saw it. it's available you can get it uh on dvd

you can get it uh at itunes you can get it on amazon instant it is a dark fucking movie that tricks you into thinking it's a comedy and it very well may be a comedy but boy does it go far it pushes the envelope man bit disturbing Bit disturbing, cheap thrills. But Healy and I, he was sort of in and around comedy for a while when I first moved to LA. And he was buddies with me and my ex-wife. And then, like, I had forgotten, but not quite forgotten, the fact that he lived at my house for a while. He was my ex-wife's roommate. We're going to get into that.

But great guy, great talk, does a lot of great movies a lot of independent movies you see that's the thing man i gotta get back into it man i i gotta get back into thinking about movies into watching movies because it's like if i'm not in the right like i think my brain has gone gone fucking screwy my expectations are peculiar sometimes but there was a time where i used to just bend my brain you know you know over you know rome open city over the bicycle thief uh over cane i used to just bend my brain over 400 blows over um jewels in gym over like I would it was I was reading Cahiers de Cinema. I was doing everything I could to understand too deeply about movies, about art, about anything. And, you know, you got to age a little bit before you realize it's like it's all what you put on to it. It's not necessarily designed that way.

It's not like the artist comes to it and goes like, these are all the levels this will be operating on. So it's whatever you bring to it. But i thought there were answers i thought there was a way i thought i was missing shit all the fucking time which i am but it's all context and who decides that context you or the guy whose book you're reading that you may or may not understand i go through these fits of sort of like i'm'm not engaging in the arts enough. I'm not paying enough attention to the important things. I'm not appreciating the poetry of life. Why? This is what it's supposed to be about.

How come I talk myself out of doing everything? This is what life is. Go. Go see a fancy movie. Go see a difficult movie. Go challenge yourself with someone else's work. Why do you just got to sit there and go like, I feel fat. I don't want to go outside. I'm tired tired maybe i'll take a nap or masturbate that's not a quality of life

you sound pretty good though that sounds pretty good it's not bad afternoon but it's not something it's not a lifelong pursuit i went to see michelle gondry's movie mood indigo and i knew nothing about it other than i saw a coming attraction. It looked interesting. Holy shit. There was almost too much stuff going on in each frame of that movie. There was all these sort of stop motion animation elements. There was all this kind of strange set work. To me, it was a very French movie in that what you had was you had a protagonist, this fella.

He marries a girl and they're in love very passionate and then she becomes ill and uh and and and there's that and they have a friend who's a sort of a sycophant of a famous philosopher who is a satirical jean-paul sartre did i say that right it felt like i said it right it always feels weird when i say it because i don't know how to pronounce french so there's all these different elements. And so that's a pretty standard, you know, tragic setup. Love, girl gets sick, life comes crashing down on us through disease, death, age, all this stuff. But the undercurrent of this film is that there's so much going on.

All these weird animation elements. There's dancing, there's music, there's these weird departures into some minor trajectory about weapon making. I mean, there was just it was just so rich visually. And I realize his elaboration through animation and through activity and through playing with time was just the ornaments that he hung on this fairly tragic and very French story. So was it a good movie? I can't tell you. I don't know. I'm not holding anything back. I just don't know.

Was it memorable? There was a couple of things that were memorable. Did it move me? Not that much emotionally because I was so distracted by all the fireworks, but it was essentially those fireworks that took so much time. I can't even imagine how much time that it took him to put that stuff together. It looked like there were scenes in that movie where, you know, five minutes of film could

have taken a month to shoot. I'm not sure how it all went, but it takes a hell of an artistic vision. And I have friends like this too. I know film directors to sort of put all that time and energy into something that is going to be you know fundamentally confusing and and maybe distracting i guess what i'm saying is i have to get away from the certain in creativity the the the compulsion towards immediate gratification like why don't i go see a show at lachma why don't i go see that uh that one that everyone told me to go see?

What is his name? Bill Kelly? Why didn't I go see that? I don't know. Because I couldn't get out of my house because I was too busy on Twitter or too busy struggling to get out here on the mic or too busy wrestling with my cock or too busy distracting myself with other things. You know, why? Why do I need this sort of like too busy, like, you know, standing in front of my refrigerator,

you know, eating out of several different containers? That is not life. Life is me going to a French movie that I walk away from saying like, that was spectacular and elaborate. I'm not sure I got it, but he definitely did something there. I filled my head up with it.

I'm talking to you about it. My point is I got to see, I guess it really is. I got to see more movies and, and probably masturbate less and not eat my feelings. That's a long way to go. It's not like I'm masturbating more than once a day. Sometimes I'll go a few days without it. Why am I being this candid? I listened to Duke Ellington this morning, which Moot Indigo is a Duke Ellington song, and Duke Ellington is sort of one of the dozen or so sub-themes of the film. Never really took in Ellington that much, and this morning I took it in, and it was a pretty good way to start the day.

I was a little weepy, and I felt nostalgic for a time that I didn't exist in. It's always good to have that kind of nostalgia. The nostalgia for an era that you have no access to other than through that music. Let's time travel back to New York in the 20s and 30s and 40s. Harlem, preferably. And perhaps I'll be black

and wear a hat. How would that be? Some big pants, pleated, some fancy shoes. That's not going to happen happen for me that's not in my history that's not gonna i can't even go back there but i can't listen to the duke and go this shit is good see that i i filled up my life this morning with some duke ellington i went and saw happy christmas the joe swanberg movie mr mumblecore the inventor of that i believe i think he's done like 70 movies i think he's the but anna kendrick is in it lena dunham is in it uh joe uh swanberg is in it and

that amazing woman from new zealand i love her whatever she's in i love her melanie linsky i believe that's her name melanie linsky anyways so I'd seen one of the other Joe Swanberg movies, and I didn't really lock in, I didn't really follow him, but this movie was the opposite of the Michelle Gondry movie. This movie was sort of, it's very simple, it's very improvised. Actually, when I was in the movie theater, Swanberg was doing a Skype Q&A, and he seemed like a very

great guy but the movie and then i watched a movie and it was very low key and he had talked about it all being improvised and anna kendricks is obviously great lane is great but it's weird how we get these mainstream movie expectations like whenever there was tension emotional tension and there was a cut that like i would expect like like, oh, my God, something's really going to turn here. But it's all very organic. And he shot it actually on 16 millimeter, which was great. It had been a long time since I'd seen film. So I was happy and excited to be happy and excited about film.

And maybe I can talk to Swanberg. If anyone knows him, tell him I want to talk to him. Right now, let's talk to him right now. Let's talk to Pat Healy. I feel, I feel like we've waited long enough. It's winter and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats, but meatballs, mozzarella balls, and Arancini balls. Yes. We deliver those. Moose? No. But moose head? Yes.

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All right. Jesus Christ, I can't. I'm having a hard time separating you from that horrifying movie. That's okay. Horrifying in a good way. It's so funny because people go see it in the theater and they have a blast, but people who watch at home tend to be really disturbed. They have a blast?

Yeah. What does that mean, they have a blast? Like they're screaming, they're yelling, they're laughing. It has sort of... They actually cheer like it's a Rocky movie when I, I don't even want to say it because it was a spoiler movie. Yeah, yeah, no spoilers. Who wins in that movie? The audience. Yeah.

It's about a man who just wants to provide for his family. Well, on the surface of it, yeah. I mean, I think it's like, it's much more complicated than that because it's a man who is dealing with ego and not being able to provide. You could say he's trying to provide for his family monetarily and money's being offered. No, I think there's a lot of depth to the character

in terms of his struggles and how he ended up where he ended up. He certainly could take care of them monetarily at some point. Right, there was an easier way to go probably. Yeah, and it becomes much more about this male ego and competition. And also I think, not that the movie's deeply political or trying to be, but about a lot of women are the breadwinners now and guys aren't comfortable with that. Right. I don't have a problem with that.

I'd be happy to sit at home. I would have no problem with that right uh i i don't have a problem with that i'd be happy to sit at home i would have no problem with that yeah so yeah this character sort of goes through this this metamorphosis over a night with an old friend and and lots of old rumblings get stirred up and there was a big uh a big jump you know in uh you know in your friend's attitude yeah at some point and i know it was you know perhaps drug driven or but it was jarring right where where it just became like you know about the money yeah and about the winning and uh look i feel haunted by the movie and it's not a bad it's not a bad thing i think the movie was compelling it almost it became like a thriller yes because of the way it's set up.

It's one of those, the setup is basically what would you do for money, but the way that the film is structured and the intensity and the violence and the drugs and the weirdness of Koechner's character. But after a certain point when you spend time in Los Angeles, you're like, you've been there we've all stayed at the party too long one part or another but for a while it's weird because it doesn't

it doesn't read as a comedy after a certain point no it's strange I mean I even don't even necessarily agree with them marketing the film that way I realize you have to market the film as something and they're doing a great job Draft House Films at marketing and making sure people see it and people are seeing it.

But like, what do you market that movie as? I mean, it's not a horror film, even though people are, you know. It's kind of. It's almost. It has. Maybe you're more better marketing as a horror film and having people surprised that they laugh at it. I mean, you know, people laugh at Reservoir Dogs and they laugh at Goodfellas a lot.

You know, I don't go to see Raging Bull when it shows in the theater because I'm embarrassed because I laughed through that entire movie. It's really funny. But I think people would be offended if I was laughing through certain parts of that. No, I get what you're saying.

But it's structured like a comedy. Yeah, absolutely. It's a very dark, I mean, it's not dissimilar from After Hours or The Hangover or something like that. It's just like, it's like what would really happen if The Hangover, you know, we've said said this before like you don't go home to your

wife and everything's okay at the end right but there's no there's not not a lot of cuteness in the movie no no none like you know yeah yeah it's ugly it's right so with the hangover at least you got you know bradley cooper you got gallop and noodles over there and you got there's nothing cute about me before or after what happens in the movie. It's a compelling film, and it's called Cheap Thrills. I don't even think we... Oh, excuse me. My God.

What'd you do? Mark, you made this coffee so strong. I did? I'm sorry, everyone at home. What just happened? You know, just went down the wrong pipe. Oh, okay. I didn't mean to make it so strong.

No, no, you know, I had... I thought I nailed it. There's some weird mishaps going on with my esophagus. I had an explosive coughing of a mouthful of red and green smoothie that just blew it out all over my window above the sink. If there was one thing... That's never happened to me before

where I'm just like... And I coughed with a mouthful of this smoothie. And it was a real spectacle. At least you knew you had a smoothie. If you had just coughed red and green, you'd really be like. Yeah, I'm not there yet. You worry about that stuff enough as it is. I do worry about it a little.

Less than I used to. Less than I used to. Now that I'm 50. Are you really? Yeah. How old are you? 42. Yeah. Yeah, it's crazy. Are you really? Yeah. How old are you? 42. Yeah.

Yeah, it's crazy. When the fuck, I'm trying to think where I met you, because all these things are falling into place now. Pat and I, who am I talking to? There's a third person here. Pat and I have a history. We do. I remember exactly when I met you. Right.

So I was friends with your ex-wife, Mishna. Yeah. And through, because I did comedy for a while. I still do occasionally sketch stuff, but a decade ago I started doing comedy around. And you were doing like those mics with her. Yeah, we did the mics. We had our own show in Los Fios

in the basement of the Ramada Inn, which I think you may have been gracious enough to stop by once or twice. Was that your show? Mine and Josh Fadum and Yeah. And Dan Forth France. Oh, the Fadum show. That clusterfuck show? Yeah, exactly.

I hated it. I was so mad at him. You didn't like it because we did sketches in between. But you weren't there the night I did it. I wasn't. I don't think so.

Yeah, I usually kept their asses in line. And I met Mishnah. Right. And then I was, I had been basically homeless for like a year. I was sleeping on couches. I had a bad couple of years. Yeah. Professionally and personally. Right. And then I had been basically homeless for like a year. I was sleeping on couches. I had a bad couple of years professionally and personally.

Right. And then I had rented a room from a building manager over in Los Fios, the same building I live in now, actually. And then at the end of that year, I was going to be out of town working a lot. Yeah. And you had just taken the Air America job in New York. Yeah. And Micheline was going to be out there with you a lot.

And so she was looking for someone to house and cat sit for you. Didn't turn out she was out there a lot. And it ended up, she ended up being here a lot. But I took that gig. And you were roommates. We were roommates. I was gone a lot.

She was gone a lot. But we ended up being here together a lot and becoming friends. You lived in my house. Yeah, but I met you after i she had already agreed to let me be you know watch your house i suppose you guys discussed it yeah and it was outside the m bar some show or something i remember you had a hat and you were smoking a cigar but i'd seen you and i knew who you were obviously but i don't think i'd ever that was

the first time we met after you were going to be my wife's roommate yeah and i know i don't think I'd ever met you before that. That was the first time we met after you were going to be my wife's roommate? Yeah, and I don't think we ever really ever spent any significant time together until after you were already back and done with that job and everything. But that was, like, it was such a short time before the whole thing fell apart. Yeah, so that was 2005. Yeah, the shit hit the fan 2006.

I mean, a lot happened to me in this house. I quit smoking in this house. I, you know, got a lot of my first sort of big jobs and big breaks and things like that. Yeah, happening here. I had a birthday party here. In my house? Yeah. Oh.

You were almost never here, but when you came back, we would watch Sopranos together. It was the end of the Sopranos. Yeah. We were watching that together. God, there's so much in my- 2007, right? Yeah, post-traumatic stress syndrome. I'm sorry if I'm stirring up.

Oh, no, no. I don't mind. But 2007, that must have been right before she left me, right? Did you guys split up in 2007? Yeah, I thought so. Okay, I don't remember. Yeah, I mean- I know you said you haven't seen her in seven years, and it's 2014, so that probably makes sense.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it was- Well, yeah, I don't think you and I were here alone. It must have been once you- No, never. I always liked you. Oh, sometimes we hung out alone, because if she was out of town, like, remember, I came and saw you do a show at UCB one night. Yeah.

And we had dinner around the corner at the deli with Jerry Stahl and you. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. God, you got a good memory hung out we saw some movies together i never had a problem with you i know only fleeting times that i think you and my wife were fucking but i didn't know that never happened of course not i'm looking you right in the eye right now that never happened i know it never i knew you thought maybe at one

point it might have happened but i was i was a crazier man but then like i remember after i ran into you the only time we had I remember after I ran into you. The only time we had trouble was when I ran into you after all this shit went down. You're like, I can't talk about it. That was long after. The first time we saw each other again. After that? Yeah.

It wasn't that long after, and I was probably trying to pump you for info. It was at Sundance in 2012. Oh, yeah. That was a little weird. Yeah. I had never seen you before in five years. But we mentioned that they're like, what did I say to you? oh yeah that was a little weird yeah and i had never seen you before in five years but but we mentioned that they're like i i what did i say to you i well you were you were really nice initially

and we were we had it was great we were catching up and everything i think maybe i saw you before that downtown somewhere at a show or something that's what i remember is that you know you can't weigh in on anything it's uncomfortable because you're still friends yeah i just didn't feel like well it was like we were having a really nice discussion and catching up, and it was really good to see you, and you were clearly in a much better place. Okay. And then it got dark, like, for a second. It did?

Yeah, I got angry. I dropped out. And I didn't fault you for it, but I just thought, like, I don't want to get into that. I tried to put you in the middle, and you said. No, you didn't really. You were just expressing your feelings very strongly. And I didn't want to either validate or negate those feelings. You know what I mean?

Tough position. That was years ago, though. And it's like, look, I have been married and divorced, but that's okay. I've been in a relationship where there was never any, you know, I think closure is a bullshit word. I don't think it exists, but like, where there was never any like, you know, we're fine with each other if we see each other,

but there really wasn't ever that moment where you like discussed it. And it just sits like a rock, you know? It's like you live and you go on with your life and you forget about it. You don't think about it most of the time. The eight dolls. The eight, yeah. I mean, well, I'm happy that, you know,

you tell me she's doing good. She just had another. I mean, I'm happy that you tell me she's doing good. She just had another kid. Yes. Look, I'm thrilled. I do want her to. My sadness now about that is a lot of the anger is gone, but you do start to realize I haven't seen her in seven years. It's bizarre.

That's strange. And if there was just a moment where I would like to laugh and have laugh and have coffee right is that possible i'm not asking you no i mean i think it is possible well i'll tell you like my experience yeah with this uh relationship how long were you with this woman like maybe a year and a half a year and a half and he got married no i'm this i'm talking about a girlfriend the marriage that we can get into that but like the the the girlfriend that i have now know that i had that i that kind of had this like we can't get together and laugh about things was at some point it would have been all right if i hadn't kept pushing after it was clearly over and acted like a psychopath and basically you know a stalker and i did that i

stalked i wrote a one-man show. I, you know, I fucked her friends. I don't know if it's coming back. And so it's fine now, but you can't, yeah, you can't ever, like, go. What's the matter? I know, yeah, it's like, hey, because, like, if she were to decide, hey, you know what? It's water under the bridge, which basically she's doing.

But she's got two kids. But, like, from my perspective with this girlfriend that I had this thing with, I don't blame her because I acted like a complete fucking wacko, regardless of what she did or what went down, or both of us being responsible. At some point I acted like a complete maniac, and I don't blame her for not wanting to sit down and have coffee with me and laugh. Yeah, I get that.

And I think the problem with what I had to learn from all this is that, you know, it all ended quite badly and I behaved quite badly during it and after it. But, you know, what's still there is that, you know, she was important in my life and I loved her. You know, that doesn't go away. Right. So, you know, it's not like any of that can be acted on. But, you know, those kind of things stick in your heart forever, and they fade and they ebb and flow. But there's some part of the heart that just wants to be forgiven. Yeah, you want to be forgiven,

and also you don't go in your mind like, well, we never really did love each other. You can't say that. You were married. You were together for a long time a long time I think that's true if you want to talk about my marriage I was married

for three months how did that happen how long were you with her no I hate having to say that but this is the place to say it so I met a girl a woman

actually around the same time I was doing comedy here in 2004 and then she moved to New York and then when I was doing a movie

in 2010 on the east coast she got to new york yeah and then when i was doing a movie in 2010 on the east coast she got back in touch with me and we started dating yeah long distance shortly after we sort of decided that she was going to move out here yeah uh to live with me she was diagnosed with lyme disease which i don't know if you know anything about it but east coast thing yeah you know you get bitten by a tick and but if you don't know that you got bit by the tick if you know you got bit by the tick you get antibiotics boom it's done if you don't you get this thing called uh chronic Lyme and chronic Lyme is very controversial because it doesn't show up on tests like once you take antibiotics it's gone but it affects the nervous

system and the brain and all this stuff a couple people have had it people it's a nuisance suffer from it so and then there's you know controversy over it because the AM system and the brain and all this stuff. A couple of people have had it. It's a nuisance. People suffer from it. And then there's controversy over it because the AMA and all these organizations don't recognize it as being real. It's a psychological disorder, so the jury's out on that. As to whether it's a real disease? Yeah. No kidding. As to whether those people still have Lyme or they're suffering some psychological disorder.

Because of it. Because it doesn't show up on blood tests. Weird. All right, so she gets the line. And there's even a guy who discovered that, you know, something that may answer that question and then was suddenly struck with Alzheimer's. Yeah, it's true.

There's a documentary called Under the Skin that's all about this. You can't get to the answer. Yeah, exactly. So very quickly, in rapid succession, I had to move her out here. She had a dog. I had to rent a house actually out here in Eagle Rock and move out of my apartment and assume all these responsibilities of taking care of someone. I was also unemployed. Were you married already?

No, but I- You loved her. I loved her. No, but I loved her. And I felt this obligation, which I recognize now as a lot of shame and guilt that was given to me as a Catholic kid. And even though my parents are great and love me very much, you just grow up with that stuff. And then she didn't have health insurance, and I have health insurance through the Writers Guild and through SAG. insurance and i have health insurance through through the writers guild and through sag and um i uh i just it actually came up with a doctor a very irresponsible doctor yeah of alternate alternative medicine who who you know presented that idea and then it wasn't like i could not

have the discussion she said it in front of you yeah like he he said maybe she said well maybe you should get married you know you don't you don't to be forever, but you'll have the coverage or whatever. And it's like- That's such an LA- And then it really put pressure on me, and then I did it. And then it was right away that it was a mistake. Like we didn't- I've been through all this.

Get along. It wasn't like even the illness or anything. It was just, we just didn't get along. Yeah. And so after three months, I left. And then it was a long period of time of separation where I actually lived with our friend Brendan Small in his house. Oh, really?

So Brendan and I, we did our thing then for like five months. And then I moved back into the building that I lived in before by myself. And eventually the divorce went through. Yeah. And I've been there for- What kind of divorce was it though was it contentious or did you just get it done yeah it ended up being contentious really well after a year and a fucking half i found out that uh i mean that we were

together for less than a year the marriage we were uh married for three months before we separated i um filed i assumed it was going to be a default, in which case, you know, in California, if the other person doesn't respond, then you can't get an ointment here unless you're cousins or, you know, the person turned out to be 14 or something. So, yeah, I thought it would be a default. I thought she wouldn't respond. She responded, and it's unclear whether or not she didn't understand that she didn't need to respond or whatever. We weren't actually communicating great. And it was really funny, you know, Joe Wagner, our friend, agreed to, he's a good friend of mine, he agreed to be the guy that served papers on her,

but he didn't understand that it wasn't a surprise that she agreed to meet and get the papers served to her. I just couldn't personally serve right so joe put on a disguise and hid behind a plant and scared like a hat and sunglasses and a fake mustache and then she was like uh are you joe he's sitting there crouched sweating but uh you told her that joe was coming yeah she knew like but she he thought you know he'd seen too many movies and tv shows he thought he he had to sneak up on her. Yeah. So, you know, it was like a year and a half of like, she was also ill during that time and sort of off the grid for like nine months. And then she finally came back and said, you know, sorry, you know, I was hurt and I was also not feeling well and all that. And we actually had a really, a series of really nice civil meetings and talked about everything. a series of really nice civil meetings and talked about everything. And,

and, uh, you know, I, I took care of her just cause she had relocated from New York to, to LA and all that stuff and took care of it. But it was a, it was a long,

uh, drawn out thing. God damn, man. You know, it's like, you know, some of us are just not destined for the simple life.

I don't know. I mean, I, I, I'm, you know, the, the woman I'm dating now, we've only been dating for

six months, so it's too early to say, but I don't know if I'd get married again. I know, you know, there was a point in time too that I definitely wanted kids and then I definitely didn't. And now I have nieces and nephews that I love and I love spending time with them, but I get to go home and go to sleep, you know? So I really don't know. Your nieces and nephews are here? Your brother? I've met your brother. Yeah, my younger brother has two kids here. He's an artiste, isn't he? Yeah, sure. I can't remember.

What does he do? Well, he works for a clothing designer now called Todd Land, but he's a musician. He's a painter. Yeah, yeah. I remember him. Were you guys working together on stuff? He probably hung out here a few times. Yeah, I remember meeting him.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Where are you guys from? Suburbs of Chicago, Arlington Heights, Illinois. times yeah i remember meeting him yeah yeah yeah when were you guys from uh suburbs of chicago arlington heights illinois well you know it's weird because like you show up in movies but you've been you've been in a lot of stuff and like i really didn't i knew you as this comic guy who did movies occasionally and then i remember i was very excited uh to see you in that that great movie you know the assassination of uh what's the full title jesse james by the coward robert ford yeah i love that fucking movie i'm in a lot of movies that people don't love when they come out

but like five years later everyone loves but that was when i first realized that you have one of those bodies and one of those heads and one that that you just fit on camera perfectly oh thanks do you feel that yeah i mean i i guess it was i always wanted to do that and i don't know if i somehow you make a physiological change to make your body fit that or i just happen to be that type physically no i think you are yeah i just i i was born to do it and you know i've been doing this professionally for 20 years now and it's really kind of only now that people you know people know my name or i'm even allowed to be a guest on your show. I mean, no disrespect,

but I don't know that I would have had that much to offer. I mean, I certainly have a lot to talk about, but in terms of people knowing the name and the face, now a little bit more because of these smaller movies that I've done. Yeah, well, what was the other one, the crazy one that you were up at Sundance for? Oh, Compliance. Yeah. I didn't get to other one, the crazy one that you were up at Sundance for? Oh, Compliance.

Yeah. I didn't get to see that one. So that was, you know, a very controversial movie, but as I think, you know, Cheap Thrills is too, but in a different way. Yeah, about, it based on real events where a guy was calling fast food restaurants pretending to be a cop and got managers,

in this case it was a McDonald's, but in fact fictionalized in the movie, but to give their employees strip searches. And this particular case ended in a rape, a sexual assault. So it's a very messed up movie that people found very compelling and either really upsetting or terrific. Did you kick ass in it? I'm told I did.

It's largely my voice on the phone for a lot of the movie because i play the guy who's the caller the raper yeah and then i'm kind of sitting there the whole time and i'm you know i've got a lot of you know kudos you know i got a lot of good reviews for that and everything but i was was sitting in a chair the whole time all coiled up and like in in cheap thrills i i'm like that for the first part of the movie and then i just get to let it all out, which is very... Very short time at the first part of the movie.

Yeah, you really cut loose, but you got a natural way about you. I was watching, having done two seasons of my show and not really being a trained actor and watching myself, there's something about the lack of self-consciousness around

the sort of taking the time to do things when you're not talking in a natural way seems to be the tricky thing. Well, it's interesting because I would think for you, and maybe this is something that hasn't occurred to you, is you're known as a very active listener on your show. Yeah. And that's really what it is. Sure. We've seen great comedians or musicians who have that natural ability who don't realize to just use those same tools no i do that but like i think that like even in real life i'm a little stilted i'm a little over dramatic like i use my hands a lot and when

i'm listening like if i'm listening i'm not necessarily moving right yeah where where's like and maybe i'm being too judgmental well you're also very cerebral so it's like you can't be cerebral when you act that's yeah that's you have to do all the cerebral stuff at home and then when you show up yeah you have to you know just be there to play yeah i think i did all right what i would usually do is just sort of like just be in the moment i thought you were very good in amber bigley's movie oh thank you yeah i just try to be in the moment that's it i mean that's the best i can do yeah well that's all it is you know it's like it's it's a lot of homework that's a lot of people don't realize not only because you can't think when you're doing it yeah you don't want to sit around and waste everybody's time i mean there's

guys that really don't give a shit that are holding lights all day long and boom mics sure yeah yeah you can't you know gotta respect them yeah yeah and it's like you know yeah as is about you it's your show it's called marin all that stuff but you know at the end of the day it's like, you know, yeah, it's about you. It's your show. It's called Marin and all that stuff. But, you know, at the end of the day, it's a job for a lot of people, and I don't want to hold them up. But, I mean, mostly, like, process and all that stuff is stuff that's done at home. Well, with a show, though, you know. That's hard. I mean, I've done 30 guest stars on TV shows, and you have no time to prepare.

You've got pages and pages of script a day. Yeah, yeah. I mean, in a way, we're shooting these movies, like, with Cheap Thrills. We shot that in 14 days. So we were shooting, like, 10, 12 pages a day. Yeah, yeah. I mean, in a way, we're shooting these movies, like, with Cheap Thrills, we shot that in 14 days. So we were shooting, like, 10, 12 pages a day. That's crazy. But, like, you know, I remember doing, like, NYPD Blue years ago, and David Miltred had me, you know, a five-page monologue that morning.

You know what I mean? And then he'd just go, don't worry about it. You know, we got three cameras going, and, you know, if you go up on a line, just call a line, and we'll call it. And then they cut it together, but what they end up doing is sort of sort of like cutting out all the nuance, all the interesting stuff that you do. They just want coverage, man. It's just your head saying the lines, you know, with the other actors. They just want coverage.

They just want to make sure that they got something to cut with. I guess that was great for me because I did, you know, I had like a good decade of doing that. And it was good training for being in front of a camera. But then when, you know, really only like in the last 10 years less than 10 years i mean basically around the time i knew you like started getting offered bigger roles in these smaller movies and really being able to feel good about what the work i'm doing like i can go back and look at those other movies and go i i had talent and you know i have presence or whatever but in terms of really knowing what I'm doing and having confidence in myself.

Feeling proud of it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, did you go, like, so you grew up outside of Chicago. Right. And what, how many kids in your family? Just you and your bro? I have three brothers.

Three brothers? Yeah. Two older and one younger brother. What did the two older ones end up doing? So my oldest brother was a musician for a long time and then he became a, he went to motorcycle mechanic school, basically. He was a master technician.

But he was in bands and stuff he was in bands yeah like his band played a lot with Billy Corgan's band the Smashing Pumpkins oh yeah and this band

Material Issue I remember Material Issue those bands were getting big at the same time Material Issue he killed himself he was a Chicago guy yeah they were all

they would all play shows together I would lift I would you know lift their gear and stuff like that fucking that one what was it something soundtrack the soundtrack the material issue oh yeah yeah a motor city soundtrack or something like that it's a great record yeah yeah it was great and it was

really surprising to everybody that that happened oh man yeah they were like a great pop band it was it was a type of music that at that time was not that successful no but that first album did pretty well i mean it was like right at that boom of the alternative you know right happening again so you should you know love gear for billy corgan yeah yeah those guys were always really nice to me i was in college at the time um how was that well how was seeing uh him play uh before he was we always thought they were great i mean they were known and at the time as being the you know the great band in chicago too oh yeah i didn't realize they were from Chicago. He had hair.

Yeah. So your brother was just, and his band was hard rock, too? Yeah. They were sort of that same psychedelic sort of hard rock. And what, he just let it go? Yeah, it just sort of just wasn't happening. And he went to motorcycle mechanics school, and he became very successful at that. He worked for BMW San Francisco for many years until that got bought

and sold. And now he's mostly a stay-at-home dad. His wife works for Wells Fargo. She does really well. They live in the Bay Area? Up in Oakland, yeah. And they have a daughter. So everyone's close by. And what about the other brother? And my brother Jim is a huge cinephile like me. We grew up with loving movies. So basically, you know, basically when I was seven and he was nine, I wanted to make movies and he wanted to watch them and show them

and that's what he does. He worked for many years at the George Eastman House in Rochester, New York, which is like one of the largest motion picture archives I performed at that theater. Oh, did you at the Dryden?

Yeah, yeah. Okay, so, oh, in Rochester. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So he programmed the movie theater there, and he was assistant curator of the motion picture collection. So basically, if you want the original camera negative of Gone with the Wind

or Wizard of Oz to make a new DVD or whatever, that's where it is. Oh, they've got that stuff. Yeah, Scorsese keeps the majority of his print collection there. It's an amazing museum as well. Is he still up there? No, he left there a few years ago and he moved to Madison, Wisconsin and he runs the University of Wisconsin Cinematheque

and the Wisconsin Film Festival. Does he teach? No. He just runs it. I mean, occasionally he does. Yeah, he runs the Cinematheque and he programs the film festival. It's a good town, Madison.

Yeah, well, he's got a kid now too, a five-year-old daughter. I mean, Rochester was becoming such a shithole. Sorry, Rochester, but like- It's a little town, Madison. Yeah, well, he's got a kid now, too, a five-year-old daughter. I mean, Rochester was becoming such a shithole. Sorry, Rochester. It's a little rough up there. Well, it was like all these big businesses, Kodak, Xerox, basically every business that went out of business. Because of technology. Yeah, like my mother was violently mugged walking to church.

In Rochester. Yeah, I mean, it was getting bad. Why was she there? She was just visiting. Oh, my God, That's horrendous. And then Niagara Falls is right up from there. And it's just grim, you know? Oh, it's grim, dude.

So, like, they moved to Madison, which is a great town. Great town. And it's a great town to raise a kid in. And then my younger brother. He's got kids, too, now? Yeah, he's got two, yeah. Jesus. I have a nephew who's four, and my niece was born in July, so she shall be, what is that, nine months old?

Yeah. Yeah. Did you go to college? Yeah, well, shall be, what is that, nine months old? Yeah. Yeah. Did you go to college? Yeah, well, I did, you know, I got into acting, even though it's just movies is really what I want to be involved in. Because that's what you're always talking about when I remember, you're a big film head. Yeah, so I, you know, it was what I knew how to do as a kid. What do you mean as a kid?

You were a director? No, I was just, no, I was an actor, you know, I was a little ham, I performed, you know, I was in plays, you know, I played the Wolfman in some, like, you know, school district play that was about all the monsters. I knew all the other kids' lines. You loved it, though. I was that little asshole. You loved it. It was your thing.

Yeah. And then, but, you know, always, you know, watching movies, catching up on, you know, these are days before home video. So it's like you watch something Planet of the Apes edited for television, you know. Yeah. It's like a two and a half hour movie that's edited to fit with commercials in two hours. Still there, still there. But it's still amazing. Apes are great.

So, you know, and then I did it all through high school acting and then went to college at Illinois State University down in Normal, Illinois. Yeah. And Normal, as it turned out, I went there because I wanted to go to DePaul University in Chicago, which is, I thought in my mind, a little more prestigious. Yeah. But A, my parents were going to make me live at home and commute, which I didn't want to do.

I wanted that college experience. And B- For financial reasons? Yeah. What did your old man do? He was an incorporator. He actually worked for Arthur Anderson. He retired within a year before everything went down the toilet there.

Oh, good. Yeah. Did he see that coming? Good and bad. I mean, he got screwed a lot on his pension and stuff like that. Oh, because they lost it all. Yeah. God damn it.

And my mom was in corporate too, mostly human resources. She worked for... They both kind of worked around the phone company. My dad started at Illinois Bell when the Bell system was still in place. Corporate people. Yeah. Yeah. But people really into the arts

and really movies and music and my dad's a huge like you know vinyl collection like you do. Does he? Not so much anymore but he did you know jazz

and mostly jazz and classical and R&B music and old rock music and stuff like that. So you grew up with that. All that stuff. That's good.

Good to have that. You know Steppenwolf Theater started at Illinois State University and they offered an internship for graduating seniors every year. Steppenwolf Theater. Yeah. So that's like Malkovich, Gary Sinise, Terry Kinney, Jeff Perry, Laurie Metcalf, Joe Allen. And that guy, the guy who's the big playwright now, Letts.

Tracy Letts is now, who was one of my first people I met on my first day of work there. Wait, so you go, okay, so you go to, you're in the drama department at Illinois State, and you apply for this internship at Steppenwolf. Yeah, you audition for it. You audition for it. Yeah. That's a big deal.

Steppenwolf is fucking balls to the wall. Huge, yeah. That's real. Like, one of the most well-known. What'd you do for your audition? I'm trying to even remember. I think they gave us, like, different scenes, like from You Can't Take It With You.

Uh-huh. And then I did a mock. From You Can't Take It With You? Yeah, or something like that, you know. But the person that always got it would be, like like the guy that did something weird in the scene so you know you can't take it with you as like a big group you know it's a kaufman and hart thing yeah exactly it's like a big ensemble thing and i remember it was the year before two years before one of the guys who was in the scene you know like everybody was auditioning for it all the seniors are just together just started taking his clothes off during the scene

that was the guy that got it. So I'm sure I did something weird, but I don't remember what it was. So now, when did the internship start? Was it coinciding with your last year or did you actually after college? No, it began in the fall after I graduated. Holy shit, that must have been fucking exciting. It was amazing. I mean, my first time there was Steve Martin had written his first play.

So he was there and he's one of my childhood heroes. I mean, comedy was a huge thing for me as a kid. And I remember my dad bringing home that Let's Get Small album. And then I was into all of his movies and all that stuff. So he was there hanging around doing his play, which Tracy Letts, as you mentioned, was an actor in. And, you know, I met a lot of my good friends now. You know, within that year, I had gotten cast in shows there. Well, what was your job as an intern?

How does it start? What do you do? I was allowed to audition for every play, and I got a couple understudy, two understudy gigs while I was there, and I even went on stage for one show. But I did stage crew. I was a production assistant. I would aid the playwright and the director.

What were some of the plays that were doing it? Who were some of the actors? Well, we did Libra, which was the adaptation of the little book about Oswald, which was Malkovich adapted and directed it. So he was there? He was there. And Alexis Arquette was the star of that. Oh, really?

And Michael Shannon was his understudy. Oh, Michael Shannon. That's how I became friends with Mike. Oh, you're friends with Shannon? Yeah, we're really good friends. He kind of popped a few years ago, huh? Yeah. Academy Award nominee.

So he was a- And Malkovich was amazing. I mean, if you were an actor in Chicago, like I grew up like, you know, I discovered Mickey Rourke at a young age and then that led me to, that was, he was my gateway drug to Brando and De Niro and all those people. And then if you lived in Chicago, it was like Steppenwolf, like those guys were legendary for getting on stage and like throwing shit at the audience's head and stuff. Tearing it up.

I think they did a very famous, I think Sinise and Malkovich's True West started there. And Malkovich tells this story of beating up a toaster with a golf club. And the head of the golf club broke off and flew off and hit an old woman in the head. And he stopped the play and he walked out. And he said, are you all right? And she said, yes. And he went back on stage and just kept doing it it was that kind of thing i saw malik malkovich do burn this in manhattan yeah that's incredible

it was crazy yeah yeah yeah i mean it was you know kind of legendary and i got actually got cast in a small role in a play that he was in called the liver team which he ended up making as a movie uh a few years ago with johnny depp uh-. And we would just stand there and watch him. I mean, he would do something different every night and just like, you know, wild. But I was talking to Mike Shannon, like we all thought that Malkovich was really being violent and doing all those things.

It was very, you know, choreographed to look that way and very powerful. But like when I would do a play with Shannon, we would have fight choreography and he would make me act, he would just, you know, ignore the fight choreography and he would make me act, he would just ignore the fight choreography and make me beat him up. And I remember I was just repeatedly hitting him

over the head with a metal garbage can just trying to get him to go limp. We were those kinds of like, we wanted to be these ferocious alpha male brooding dark actors. And the first play that I got cast in at Steppenwolf was A Clockwork Orange. It was Steppenwolf was A Clockwork Orange. It was a stage adaptation of A Clockwork Orange.

Was the lead? No, I was, you know. One of the guys? You know, eight different parts, you know, in the thing. But I met a lot of my good friends who are pretty well known now. Nick Offerman was in that production. A guy named Paul Edelstein,

who was on the show Private Practice for a long time and worked with the Coen brothers in the movie Intolerable Cruelty. And many, many people like that show was sort of famous for the guy who played Alex DeLarge. Had an enormous penis and whipped it out every night and masturbated in front of the crowd. What happened to that guy? Well, I don't know. What's his name?

Ken Freeman. Yeah. And every night you would stand backstage and just hear, from 500 people way back in the balcony. It's that big of a space, Steppenwolf, 500? Yeah, it was a small place that started in a church basement. By the time I got there in the 90s, it was a big operation. Well, it's just interesting because this is the first time I've talked to somebody.

You know, usually when I talk to comedians or comic actors about Chicago, it's all Second City. Which is wild. I talked to, like, Matt Dwyer about this. Like, we're blocks away. I mean, we drank at the same bar, but rarely did we. We never interacted with that. Well, I never did comedy until I came to L.A. But it's interesting to me that it's equally as important in producing talent.

Yeah. Both as directors, writers, actors. I mean, a lot of people came out of there. So as a young man, you're watching this stuff and you want to be an actor and you've got certain chops. You did basic stuff in college. Did you have a teacher in college that blew your mind and made you realize how? Because I talk to actors and it's very difficult to talk about craft or to talk about training

because either you have the gift or you don't, and that gift is either sort of honed with guidance by somebody that means something. There doesn't seem to be like a, I think David Mamet tried to write a textbook about acting. Yeah. But he had a whole school, the Atlantic School, and his basic premise-

And they still have a theater company, and that's a great theater. But it's a very specific school of Atlantic School. And his basic premise- And they still have a theater company, and that's a great theater. But it's a very specific school of acting, if you see his films. Right. Well, his idea is like any idiot can act. Right. And you just have to apply these things.

And that's clearly not true. Well, everyone in his movies talks like David Mamet, so it's like- It's very stilted. It's good at that. It's good. I like it, but it's- It's okay. It's servicing his voice, and I think there's an arrogance to making that presumption. No, our school was very much based in, you know, Stanislavski.

Right. And, you know, a lot of passion and, you know, fire, probably maybe, you know, too much. I mean, a lot of great teachers, a guy named Patrick O'Gara, who's since retired. And I just found out, like, one of my first teachers, Sandy Zielinski, she retired. We had this legendary teacher gene scharfenberg who taught malkovich and all these people who when i was there was this lady who was 70 with big flowing white hair and giant glasses wore a cape and walked around with a cane you know and called everybody love and would get up in the in the middle of a play if she didn't like it and

say i'm bored is anyone else bored? And walk out, you know. And she taught this class called Animals, which was, you know, you, if you were really special, you got selected as a senior to be in that class. You picked an animal for the semester, and then you would be that animal, and then the animal over the, you would do a kill, and then you would get killed at the end of it.

And then that character, the animal would become a human character as the class progressed over so it was like you know really like a you know raw acting you know sort of that's interesting and then she retired right after that so i was in the last class so when you say like stanislawski and and you know that that that sort of old style method that so they were running stanislawski through the steppenwolf well stanislawski sort of by way of the group theater which is you know dan strasberg uh more stella adler than strasberg i think like strasberg is really much like the more leaning towards the daniel day lewis like you know you must become the character and you know i don't even know if daniel this is a good

example i mean strasburg strasburg was big on using your own feelings, you know, as substitutions for things, you know. So if you had to cry, you'd think about your father dying or things like that. And what's the other side? I mean, Stella Adler's, you know, whole thing is sort of like it's all in the text. And if you really analyze that text and you read it over and over again, if it's good, it's there. And then it's really just about using your imagination. And you can't play an emotion you can't go like oh i'm going to be sad here it's like you have to pick an action

you know you have to look at the scene objectively and go like okay i'm going to do this and then if i do this right and this is in the text and i've analyzed this right you know and you'll hear you'll hear de niro talk about this because he studied with her and everything it'll come and brando studied with her too you know it'll come and it does you know and really this is really the first this movie's really the first time i've been able to apply all of that well you you acted the fuck out of it yeah i mean the animals class like this is the first time it's ever come back in my mind of like really being you know i become an animal isn't that fascinating yeah and now i feel like i you know there's a scene in the movie after i mutilate myself where I have this big explosion.

That was insane. And people sort of talk about it. And it was insane. But I don't know that I'm going to be able to do that on that day. I trust that I do, and I know that other people trust I do. But I've never done it. It felt like it came from child's place. It's everything.

It's my entire life. But it's that moment, too. It's 40 years of everything. Right. Well, you know that moment, moment though where a kid falls down and doesn't know whether he's going to react or not right at first yeah there's this moment of silence and then yeah and i said like i know i'm gonna have to pull up everything here because i imagine in my mind that emotionally and physically that's the worst pain anybody could ever feel and

so we pull it up and we do it and and comes out of me. What's really interesting is like the layers of it. I was just talking to my shrink about this yesterday. Is I get, I'm in pain, I'm screaming, I'm in terror. Then there's sadness, there's tears. And then somebody wrote this about this in a review. And then I start laughing. It's like one's underneath the other. It's like all this muck inside you, right?

And then it's like all that shit. The anger is covering up sadness, which often is covering up joy. That's like stuff way inside you, right? And then it's like all that shit. You know, the anger is covering up sadness, which often is covering up joy. That's like stuff way down there, right? Yeah, yeah. And that was the first time in my life I really fully, truly experienced it and knew that I could do this

and knew what this was all about. You know, I could talk about it all day and I've been good in other things, but this was the first time. Where it all came together. Yeah, it was like, boom, oh, wow, magic. Because the arc from that moment on, once you go through that, and then- You wouldn't buy the rest of the movie if it doesn't work, and for me, I don't want

to bullshit anybody either. Yeah, but I think the emotions of the rest of it were good, because it was also a baptism in some sort of weird, like when you talk about all those feelings, and pain, and joy, and sadness, but you also made this horrendous decision right right you know everything to you know for for money yes it's complicated psychology and is it for the money yeah oh right you know it's like you know it's like it's all these things and and i i describe as like this tap opened up in me that i didn't even know was closed. But like that magical key

that you always look for in therapy or whatever, like that's going to be the answer to all of your things. The missing piece. Was I molested? Am I gay? Whatever it is that it might be, you know? And it was just, I still don't know exactly what it is,

but it was just there. And then they lost the tape. They erased it. Stop it. I'm not kidding. Stop it. I'm not kidding stop it i'm not kidding like everybody was perfect like the camera and we could we didn't have a lot of time or a lot of takes on this movie so that was the second take i did it like two days later like three

more times and what was remarkable is that i was able to go there yeah and now i know that i can you know i even had written a blog about how how important it was to me you know the day that we did it because i realized that it wasn't about what you're gonna see or like it was the experience of doing it to me sometimes that's all you're gonna get like maybe no one will ever see it maybe no one will ever like it but you have that you know right but you'd put all these this work and all this craft in place yeah and this particular script out of all the scripts demanded that you reach this point yeah especially since if you didn't do it this script could easily just be a sort of but i'm sure you yeah but i'm sure you surprised the director i'm sure that like like because if

you think about it because now that now that we're talking about it yeah in that you know clearly the writer said this was a dark comedy right but you know at some point and i think now after talking to you by virtue of your performance in and of itself it transcended that because if you think that because that that scene the way it's the way it's written on paper could could really be dark slapstick that you guys played it so straight which is the way to go but i don't think the screenwriter could have realized the depth of horror that could be reached through that. Because if you think about this and that, and then that reaction, with a slight tweak, it would have played a slapstick. And I would say that you're right, and I want to give credit to the director, whose name is Evan Katz, because when he cast me, I wasn't anybody's choice.

Right. He saw this movie, Great World of Sound, that I did. That was actually the movie I went to film when I was living here, in which I play a very real grounded character. Yeah. And I understood from him liking that movie and wanting me that that's what he wanted. That he had this opportunity to direct the script.

He's a writer himself, but he didn't write the script. Yeah. That there was some version of this that even some people involved to direct the script. He's a writer himself, but he didn't write the script. Yeah. That he did, that there was some version of this that even some people involved with the movie might have thought was fun. Right. And he wanted that kind of movie.

And everyone else agreed. Even Koechner did not want to do shtick, you know what I mean? Like, you know, there are the things that are familiar about David that we love that invite us in

to enjoy the movie and then he turns the screws on you. But he didn't do any of what he's capable of because that guy can go way out over the top. Right. But I mean, you know, he's played it close to the vest and deep and menacing. He sits there at one point and stares at Ethan for about 10 seconds. I swear, just staring into him. There's no dialogue.

And I just don't know what he's going to do. And he's terrified. And his reactions like that seems like like real real yeah but it all seemed real but but like you know that gets to a point where you're like how's that all gonna i mean you don't even know if it's gonna work because it's like at some point you have 14 days to shoot which is like four days shooter than the shorter than the shortest movie i've ever worked on you got no money you're in one location, it's 105 degrees outside. Sometimes we lost power for a whole half a day.

Oh, my God. You really don't have any other choice but to set up two cameras, do it handheld, and really do it, which sort of harkens back to the days of theater and thinking about... I mean, I haven't done a play since I left Chicago in 1998. Do you crave doing that, though?

I like to think about it, but what I can't stand is the same reason why i'm not a stand-up not that i would i would claim to be a great stand-up or anything but the amount of time it takes to devote to it i do and i and i but i i can't do the same thing over and over again no i get it drives me insane i like i worship you and pat and all those guys now. I've seen you or Patton do the same bit, but just phrase it slightly differently and make it new for them and just be funny and fresh every time. But I, for myself, could never do that. So that's what bothers me about theater a lot is I can't.

But don't you like the rush of it? Well, I like the stage stage. I mean, that's what comedy, like doing sketch comedy or even a little stand-up that I did sort of gave me that without. I would do it again in the right circumstances, absolutely. And, you know, this is even sort of like a stage play in a way because it's mostly one location. But, like, I like interacting with the audience yeah i just don't like the repetition of it so tell me did you get i want to i want to believe that you got the herzog movie while you were at my house i did you did yeah oh well you know what happened was i rescued on yeah i went down to charlotte to shoot great world of sound

i came back for a weekend i forget what for to. To do something or other. I knew I had to come back for something. And they set the audition up for me, and I went to it. And I stayed here. Uh-huh. And my manager, I remember, sent me a thing. He said, you have this audition for this action movie, Rescue Dawn. And I looked at it, and it was like Werner Herzog. I had this film studies class in high school, which was like, they only taught it like one or two years.

And one of the movies we watched was Strozek, you know, which is, I was 16. That blew my mind. So I was like, oh, wow. And he was there, you know, I auditioned for him. So you auditioned for Herzog. What's that like? Well, he was there with his son, who was a teenager at the time.

Yeah. And his son videotaped everything. And he laughs a lot. He really enjoys watching you, which is good. You want to be enjoyed as an actor. You go in a lot of rooms with people with their arms folded. And I think a lot about that story that you tell about Lorne Michaels when you went in there.

Sorry to bring that up, but I think about that a lot. There are college students taking a shot right now. Oh, okay. The Lorne Michaels game. It's so vivid in my mind to be sitting across the desk from someone or sitting in a chair across from someone and having them film you with complete indifference. And then if you're like you or me, your mind is filled with how horrible you are and all the awful things that you've done. And you get somebody like Herzog who you think has earned the right to be that way and isn't, and is really joyful. He does amazing things.

He does amazing things. And he does exactly what he wants to do. He does exactly what he wants to do. And he's also not this crazy maniac. He's crazy like a joyful kid is crazy. We did this scene in the end of the movie where we bring Christian Bale back, and the entire naval fleet is waiting for him inside the aircraft carrier. So they found every white guy in Thailand that they could, and then they CGI'd. They doubled it. So there's like 300 guys there.

And it had to have been 120 degrees outside, and we were inside a closed helicopter inside the aircraft carrier I had come out of. So we were just soaked, sweat through. But we shot that day. And then it was crazy. And like Kurtzog, you know, he's an older guy. Like he'd get up and run down the gangplank up and down all day long, like to look at the monitor or whatever. Then at the end of the day, he got on the stage and he said, I want to thank everybody for coming.

This is a very important story. It's my friend's story. I'm telling. This is our leading man, Christian Bale. He was Batman. And thank you. And then he runs off.

He drops the megaphone. He runs off. He runs down the gangplank. Yeah. And I'm not kidding. Every single guy that was there, 300 guys,

he shook every one of their hands. And if one of them stopped and wanted to talk to him, he talked to them. And he didn't leave until the last one was gone. That was the last day of shooting? That was the first day of shooting. How was Christian Bale? Great.

Yeah. I really felt upset a couple of years ago when that tape was released of him ranting because we've all had those days and I've seen worse things on sets. I had one yesterday in my living room. He's a sweet guy and he's not this maniac and uh i'm sure if i was doing terminator 8 and you know some guy was fucking with the light above my head and i was trying to like commit to what i'm doing like i'd be pissed too but you know i'm sure he feels you know regretful you know for doing it but like

really sweet guy you know and uh not one of these weird method guys that stays in character like he keeps his accent because otherwise it would get confusing but um i really really had a great time working on it and i got to tell herzog you know when i was 16 years old i saw this movie strozak and it changed my life and it's just such a pleasure to work with you and he smiled and hugged me oh yeah how many people say that? Especially if you're a movie nut. You know, you're this kid that grew up just worshiping these people. Like, it's incredible. Yeah.

And you've worked with some other guys. Like, you know, Sam Rockwell I like a lot. Sam is the best. He's a trip, man. I think Sam and, you know, Richard Jenkins and my friend Phil Hoffman, who's no longer with us, unfortunately, were really the best people that are acting right now, you know, like consistently. How well do you know Philip? Pretty well.

I hadn't seen him in quite a few years. I'm really close with his mother and his brother. Really? Yeah. Well, because they're from Rochester, and I knew his brother actually before I knew Phil. His brother's out here, right? Yeah, Gordy, yeah.

And I knew Phil from, I met Phil doing Magnolia many years ago you were the pharmacist yeah exactly i was two pharmacists in that movie i'm in the beginning of the movie and like uh with julianne moore right yeah with julianne moore and at the beginning of the movie i'm a pharmacist in old england uh who gets uh killed in greenberry hill london who gets killed by three guys named greenberry and hill it's one of those weird coincidental stories so he'll phil hoffman that was such a tragedy. Yeah.

But, you know, he was wrestling with that fucking thing. Yeah, it's horrible. And, you know, I don't, I think it came on sort of rather quickly after a long time of, you know, I don't want to speak too much about it because, but it was very moving to me that I'd certainly been in touch with the family and left messages, but I didn't want to be intrusive or anything. And then Gordy showed up to see Cheap Thrills here.

And I would have never, I mean, I didn't even send out, I sent out invites to people, but I would never have thought to, you know, invite him during this time. And he was really knocked out by it. And then he just told me this thing where it's just it reminded of him of i remind him of phil and how much i committed to and everything which is really like amazingly flattering but incredibly heartbreaking and yeah and then um phil's mom marilyn who i as somebody i love very much yeah she actually she's a she was a family court judge up in um in rochester she actually officiated the wedding of

my brother jim and his wife katie and you know we're close and she came you know the other night and was again not knocked out and wrote me something really nice you know and it's like what can you say like that guy you know i think was the greatest actor of my generation and i mean there's no question and uh to have even been a part of someone like that's life or you know any of these directors that we're talking about to be a part of their body of work you know i i still like struggle to get roles and make a living and all this stuff but like to me on a level of personal importance it's like you know it's right up there with my dad telling me he's proud of me you know know what I mean? Yeah, sure. Like, those people are really special people, and they're great people.

And, you know, we hear a lot about, like, you know, what a great actor Philip was and all that stuff. But, you know, he also is a guy who has children, you know, and it's difficult for me to even fathom, much less, you know, think about how his mother or his brother or sister is dealing with it. But there are really amazing people who showed up to see my dumb little movie and stick around to tell me how much they enjoyed it and to see those nice things. That's great. It's great. It's very sweet. I don't really talk about this publicly, but I, you know, because I feel like it's like violating their privacy in some way. But like, you know, it feels okay to say, you know, like, I don't want to.

Yeah. It's not about me getting compliments. It's like, you know. It's about friends. Yeah. And it's about, you know, being part of a family and a family that obviously is supportive of the arts. Yeah, I mean, in a way, I think that family and their mom is very similar to our family and the way their parents raised us. That was a very important thing.

And so the level of commitment that Phil brought to his work is something that I aspire to at least try to take it that seriously, you know, no matter what it is, you know. Yeah. And, you know, it's certainly in this new film. I mean, you know, you put it all out there. It's weird that the opportunity comes in a film that is sort of specific and bizarre. Yeah. specific yeah and bizarre yeah but uh you know i i think that the best is yet to come because as you said you know for yourself and and you know out of respect for you know for the work you put in you know you feel that you know you've sort of arrived in your own body as an artist yeah

and they like this this wouldn't have been possible 10 years ago yeah no way so like when you talk about that when you talk about people of influence here or people that have said things to you, having either worked with people or seeing John Malkovich, were there moments that kind of kept you going? Or were there things that you noticed in the work of others that you thought, other than an ethic or a work ethic or just a commitment thing, where you're like, oh, that's how you do that? I mean, certainly at a really early age, longer. thing like uh where you're like oh that's how that that's how you do that i mean certainly like

at a really early age you know longer you know when you hear people talk about seeing movies as kids it's often like 10 11 12 13 i'm talking about five six years old right seeing stuff and seven probably like woody allen and mel brooks and and then steve martin and you know the comedians really at first and then you know as a kid just gobbling up everything and then like oh when i was up 12 my mom took me to see this movie the pope of greenwich village oh yeah york was in and i like i said i hadn't really like seen a lot of the dinero or brando if at all you know and i was like oh wow like that guy was so cool and that was that's what i want be. And that was sort of like a direction where I was just sort of like, okay, I wanted to be that guy.

I started doing my hair like that, you know. Like Mickey? Yeah, when I had it. You know, the big pompadour. Yeah. It was cool. I smoked for many years. I mean, all that stuff was probably because of that.

Yeah. It's funny. I just watched it again recently, and it's so great. But I see all these things that I do that just sort of became part of me. Like what? I don't know, just certain little mannerisms or ways of speech and stuff like that. Really? Because he plays like a half Italian, half Irish guy,

and so it's like I could sort of conceivably resemble him in some way. I wanted to be the guy who beats the shit out of the refrigerator and dents it in. And then that led to like we got to – this is so going back so far we got a vcr when i was you know right before i started high school i was the first time and that was discovering the discorses de niro movies that was like really like my god yeah knock me out and then so it was just sort of this steady like gobbling up all that stuff discovering kubrick and you know seeing the godfather movies and all that stuff. And then Michael Al Pacino in the fucking Godfather 2.

That movie, holy moly. That's a fucking movie. I mean, that movie is like the better movie. Absolutely. It's almost not even controversial to say that anymore. You know what I mean? They're both magnificent, but I mean, holy moly. That movie is stunning.

If it comes on, you can't turn it off. Everything's in there. Life, death, politics, all of it. Everything. Business. But then the real like earth shaking moment, now I'd already been a lifelong cinephile on all this stuff.

My brother saw this movie, Blue Velvet, David Lynch's movie. And he said, you know, he's got to see this. And maybe he described to me a little bit about what it was. And I knew that there was some like weird psychosexual thing that I probably didn't have any grasp on because I was 15 years old. I don't know that you would now. Yeah, probably not. No.

And that really like the sexual part of it wasn't really a component of it to me at the time. Not that I was conscious of. I sat down and I watched it. It was playing this theater in our neighborhood. And the first five minutes, that opening of that movie split my head open because not only was I seeing what a director did with sound and image and all this stuff,

but it was this metaphor for the suburbs and what was crawling beneath the suburbs and it never occurred to me to think about that. Going into the hole, right? Yeah, it goes down into the lawn

and there's all those bugs crawling around. Is it right after the guy has a heart attack? Yeah, it goes down into the lawn, and there's all the bugs crawling around. Is it right after the guy has a heart attack, right? Yeah, you basically see the crossing guard waving, and the guy's on the fire truck, and the white picket fence is on fire, and then everything starts to go downhill. You see the guy have a hose that he's watering his lawn, and then he has a stroke, and then the dog is barking, and the dog is just licking the water out of the hose and not helping the guy. And then you go into the hole. And you go down into the lawn, and it's just tons of bugs bugs yeah and so i thought i immediately

thought about where i came from and everything like that that there was this is like you know darkness crawling under this thing that i just sort of took for granted and thought was innocent and then at that really like everything sort of came together in that moment that night i saw that movie and i really think that altered the way i looked at the world and you know and movies there's no limit my part in it no yeah and like you know oh you can you know david lynch has always struck me as someone that i'd like to be like even if it's just as an actor who if you can take what's in your head and in your heart and there's no filter immediately transfer it on the thing and have someone else receive it

you know where you're coming from like i feel like cronenberg and and lynch like do that really well you know yeah then then i could conceivably do that you know what i mean and and that was that's a big big influence on on me and how i approach my work even though i may approach my work very differently i mean david lynch is someone who refutes psychoanalysis because he doesn't want to know. He feels like he won't be able to do it. Right. And I'm someone who goes two days a week.

I'm someone who used to go four days a week. You know what I mean? And that's everything to me. Like, that's how I became, you know, a good writer. That's how I became, you know, good at this. I mean, it's certainly a big part of it. Interesting. Yeah.

But also, like, I like the idea of that you know when you watch that david lynch movie for the first time whether to raise your head or or or blue velvet and then you and then you just realize like you set your own parameters yeah i guess that's i didn't think about that part of it but that's true too and it's just sort of like you know if people aren't you know you don't have to appease anybody no I've been in this business for a long time, and there was a long period where I was trying to appease people or trying to be that handsome brooding actor that I saw that I wanted to be or whatever. And I just got rejected. I got knocked down. There's two whole years where I didn't work at all, you know, and I just kept going. I kept saying to myself, like, I can be a leading man in movies if I want to be.

And I am. You know uh i don't have to be i'm happy to take character parts and things i love sam rockwell i love richard jenkins those guys are great leading men and great character actors you know like but i just kept at it and i never changed course i mean maybe there were years where i was like oh i'm not getting jobs maybe i should be more of this or more of that. And I got a little anorexic for a while, or I got a little weird for a while. It ended in a complete nervous breakdown when I was in my late 20s, and I sort of had to rebuild. What, you ended up in the hospital? No, I could have. My dad, God bless him, came out here and took care of me for a while.

How did that manifest itself? I met a guy, a nice older man. I mean, I just was really wanting to be a movie star, and I was in my 20s, and I was, you know, I'm 5'10", and I weighed 145 pounds, and my hair was falling out, and I was just nuts, you know. And I met this seemingly nice man who said, oh, you should start meditating, and I didn't know anything about it.

And he said, here, send away for this tape. And I sent away for this tape. And it's a tape you listen to while you meditate. And it turns out it's from a cult. It was from one of these cult groups. And the tape had post-signotic suggestion on it that causes you to not go into deep sleep. Every time you're about to go into deep sleep, you wake up sort of with your heart beating really fast. And then it tells you to do the exercise again.

So you just perpetuate this thing. And I think the sort of end game is this guy was like having, you know, meetings with me at my house. And I was eventually like, all I need is $2,000 to do this. Can you believe that? And it was kind of getting to that point. And the really strong ego in me that had been sort of like buried deep beneath eventually sort of woke up and I just started therapy.

So I was like dealing with a lot of stuff that I hadn't really like talked about or dealt with before. And so I would much rather find some spiritual, you know, reason than to have to actually go into like what my problems were and all that. And so this all sort of combined in this perfect shit storm and i i lost my mind you know i called my parents at you know five in the morning one night and my dad got on a plane the next day and came out here and was with me for like a month i mean i went to hawaii and filmed pearl harbor i was in the middle of a

complete mental collapse i was also filming ghost world at the time. This was a crazy time. And I just had to rebuild from there, you know. And I think any time in my life since then, whether it's been the divorce or any other sort of major setback that I've had, I always know that my life will get better again if I just hang in there. Well, when you have one real, like, because I lost my mind once too. Yeah. So anything that happens, matters of the heart or whatever,

when you really experience losing your mind, that's the worst. Yes. And you can always have that as something to, as a barometer, and you can be aware of it. I mean, because I don't know that a lot of people have experienced not losing their mind no like at the closest i can tell people is like that

movie jacob's ladder where it's you know he's losing his mind and he's seeing these demons and stuff i mean that's really what it's like you're seeing the worst yeah yeah oh you're hearing voices like groups of voices it's crazy you're reading things into things yeah you read everything that you think every song that comes on the radio as a message to you. Yeah, that's psychosis. It's bad. Yeah, I had that. So to be able to come back from that.

It's great. I've been through some, that's great, and I've been through some, you know, I think two or three other sort of like earth-shattering, you know, events in my life since then. But my life has gotten better than it was before. Things got bad every time after that. And it's continued to be so. So I don't know any differently as, as bad as I

allow myself to get depressed or anxious during hard times, but I can hang in there because I know it's going to get better again. You know, that's good, man. I think things are getting better. Yeah, they are. And the work's getting better. Like, you know, not only my, you know, job's getting better, but I I'm better at what I do. Yeah. Even if I look at an interview with myself, I see like a relaxation that wasn't there before, you know. Like, I don't see that. Like, he's talking, but like in his eyes, he's going to murder you, you know, thing.

Like, yeah. It's like. Screaming inside. And my friends will say, like, you know, you just seem, you know, so much more settled. Screaming inside. And my friends will say, you just seem so much more settled. Or I'll see pictures of myself somewhere and not have that thing like you were talking about, like I don't know what to do with my hands or whatever. I used to get it.

I have to consciously squint my eyes in photographs. Oh, my God. I studied it. I studied with this teacher who would always just be like, your eyes. Take attention out of your eyes. You have to mentally and emotionally take the tension out of your jaw and your eyes and your face. You have to mentally and emotionally take the tension out of your jaw and your eyes and your face. And just sort of sink it down in your core, whether it's your stomach or wherever, your pelvis, whatever that is. So your face doesn't read like that.

You don't know you're doing it until someone points it out. Or you see a picture. I was doing this thing in college when I first started and I took a movement class. And I was sticking my neck out like this. I was walking around like that. And I was carrying, I mean, I probably still have neck and shoulder problems because I did that for so long. But, like, I was just walking around looking like, completely, my head completely disconnected from my body. And my body just, like, not moving at all, you know.

And my head just being this, like, ball of fire, you know. It's like Kirk Douglas' head on a tree trunk, you know. Yeah. Well, I'm glad you got your head on. Yes. And thanks for talking to me man it's been a blast thanks Mark that was great

it was great to talk to Pat it was great to see Pat it was great to catch up with Pat I think Pat's a real artist and I think he's a great actor I hope you enjoyed that go to WTFpod.com for all your WTFpod needs get the app upgrade to that premium and spend the rest of your life catching up to WTFpod.com for all your WTFpod needs. Get the app. Upgrade to that premium. And spend the rest of your life

catching up with WTF. 520 some odd episodes out there, folks. Dig this, if you're still here. Bob Newhart on Monday. I talked to Bob Newhart, and I couldn't be more excited. My mouth feels funny.

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