WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 529 - Mac McCaughan

Episode Date: August 31, 2014

Mac McCaughan from Superchunk is also the founder of one of the biggest and most prolific indy music labels in the country - Merge Records. Mac and Marc talk about the creation of Merge and the evolution of Mac's own musical output. Also, comedian Carol Leifer drops by to talk about her new memoir, How To Succeed In Business Without Really Crying. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Along with your favorite restaurant food, groceries, and other everyday essentials. Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. Calgary is a city built by innovators. Innovation is in the city's DNA. And it's with this pedigree that bright minds and future thinking problem solvers are tackling some of the world's greatest challenges from right here in Calgary. some of the world's greatest challenges from right here in Calgary. From cleaner energy, safe and secure food, efficient movement of goods and people, and better health solutions,

Calgary's visionaries are turning heads around the globe, across all sectors, each and every day. Calgary's on the right path forward. Take a closer look how at calgaryeconomicdevelopment.com. Lock the gates! all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fucking ears what the fuck nicks what the fucksters what the fucking delphians what the fucking ux i'm mark maron this is wtf I sound very clear to myself right now. I sound very clear. Welcome to the show. Today on the show, Mac McCann from Merge Records, the label, the very long, enduring and amazing indie record label. the band super chunk still cranking it out the rock and roll will be talking to me momentarily also a little a drop-in chat with carol leifer the comedian and writer about her new book how to succeed in business without really crying so sort of a double header today and i wanted to do

a little business i know it's labor day a lot of you guys uh and gals aren't gonna that's so funny because i throw in the gals because i realize i i use guys as a general thing like hey you guys like everybody that's men and women included uh but then when i say all right you guys there's part of me that goes what about the ladies all right you guys and gals uh i know it's labor day you're probably gonna listen to this at your leisure it's gonna be a little stilted because you're probably enjoying a barbecue or not really appreciating uh what labor day you're probably going to listen to this at your leisure it's going to be a little stilted because you're probably enjoying a barbecue or not really appreciating what labor day really means but nonetheless perhaps enjoying some free time getting caught up on some shit eating some food with the family perhaps having another day of drinking perhaps having another

day of recovering from drinking but but nonetheless nonetheless, you'll get to this eventually. And I wanted to give you a heads up on some of the dates I have coming up because I just added a bunch of some of you people who are in L.A. or visiting L.A. enjoyed coming to my Trippany House residency shows, which is a pretty low-priced ticket. It's pretty under the radar. I only tell you guys about it. I'll tweet about it a bit. But it's me just working out stuff and polishing some stuff and trying to find some new stuff.

But as I head towards the tour next spring and also towards some of the dates I have coming up in the New York Comedy Festival, I haven't been to New York in a couple years, and I'm going to be there on November 7th. They just added another show at the Skirball Center at NYU. So I'm going to be doing two shows there, and I want it to be tight as fuck. I have this fantasy that I'm going to be tight as fuck. Yeah. I have this fantasy that my next special is going to be called Mark Maron Structured Surprised. But I wouldn't count on that.

But nonetheless, some of you came to the trippany house shows before and saw me work on some stuff i'm going to be working on that stuff and i'm sure some new stuff but those dates at the trippany house are september 16th 23rd and 30th and october 14th and 21st if you go to wtf pod and go to the calendar you can uh you can get that uh get a link to those tickets they're usually a cheap ticket i do it for a benefit for the theater also this friday september 5th i'll be at the nevada city film festival doing some some shows or a show i'm not even clear if i'm doing one or two but i should know that and then the oddball dates still are coming up and also we got the la the los angeles

podcast festival again this year on the 27th, which is my birthday. I'll be doing a live WTF, and there's a lot of stuff going on there at the LA Podcast Festival. You can sort of spend the weekend, get a package deal. And we got my podcast, More Stories with Jay Moore. Death Squad's going to be there. Never Not Funny with Jimmy Pardo. Risk with Kevin Allison.

Jonah Radio with Jonah Ray. The Dollop with Dave Anthony and Gareth Reynolds. Improv for Humans with Matt Bester. The Todd Glass Show. The Dana Gould Hour. All going to be at LA Podfest. That's September 26th through 28th at the Sofitel Hotel in Beverly Hills. You can go to lapodfest.com.

And it's a fun weekend. Everyone had a blast last year. So, all right. So that's a little business out of the way before i get to carol leifer i have this weird relationship as many of you know with this deaf black cat that comes around and and i don't know he uh i didn't see like my schedule had gotten sort of erratic and he's a real wild little fucker and he's always sort of scraggly looking and i hadn't seen him in three weeks and i just just assume I, you know, my assumption being, you know, somewhat a realist, but also,

you know, a bit of a worrier and full of panic is that, you know, if I don't see him, you know, I, I, I know, I, I just feel like he's probably been taken, taken by the wild and has met some violent and lonely animal end. And then he shows up and he's looking good folks uh and in quite honestly as i've shared with you before it bothers me that he refuses to fully acknowledge that i am important in his life but i but in in all sincerity it's good to see him and uh like there's just points where you know these relationships that i have in my life with these animals where you you kind of assume that they're gone forever and then they come back and there's relief.

But there's also sadness and not knowing where they are. But that's just the way it is. I don't know. Should I put together some strange kind of feral cat codependency group here in the neighborhood for people who have relationships? Like, I'm sure he's got benefactors all over the neighborhood. and just like, I'm sure he's got benefactors all over the neighborhood. I'm sure there's plenty of people that are standing at their back window going, I wonder if that black cat's coming back.

I hope he's okay out there. Why shouldn't we be talking? Do you understand what I'm saying? Why shouldn't we be talking? So this was actually pretty exciting that Carol Leifer asked if she could come back on. Carol Leifer, one of the great comedians, started out with Paul Reiser and Jerry Seinfeld and those people. That was her crew, Larry David and the like. Well, she's written this

great book, How to Succeed in Business Without Really Crying, and she came by to talk about the book and talk about comedy, and I always love seeing Carol, so let's go to that. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know, we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis

producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Calgary is an opportunity-rich city, home to innovators, dreamers, disruptors, and problem solvers. The city's visionaries are turning heads around the globe across all sectors each and every day.

They embody Calgary's DNA. A city that's innovative, inclusive, and creative. And they're helping put Calgary and our innovation ecosystem on the map as a place where people come to solve some of the world's greatest challenges. Calgary's on the right path forward. Take a closer look at CalgaryEconomicDevelopment.com. Now. Carol Leifer is back.

She's back in my garage because she has this amazing book. It's a memoir, but it actually does serve as sort of an advice book. Yes, yes. How to Succeed in Business Without Really Crying, Lessons from a Life in Comedy. But it is a memoir, and I'm surprised that I think people who want to do this should read it. Yes, absolutely. Oh, absolutely. I'm really overwhelmed by the response.

Really? What's happening well you know i got great response to my first book but this book i'm getting so many messages from people that are like i'm you know thank you for writing this it's really giving me a roadmap of what i want to do i'm not even sometimes they're like i'm not even show business and it's helping me and thank you and i wish i had you had written this written this 10 years ago and that really is nice. Yeah. Well, I mean, it's one of these jobs where a lot of people who want to do these kind of things, these kind of jobs, think

it's ridiculous, it's not practical. But I think the book speaks a lot to knowing what you want to do, figuring out how to do it and following your heart and doing it. Absolutely. And comedy's rough, but anything's rough if it's off. But where is there job security anymore? There is none. Right. And when you have a passion for something, you just have to go for it. And I talk a lot about tenacity and stick-to-itiveness because,

you know, I've been doing stand-up since I was in college. I mean, that's how long I've been doing this. There's pictures of you in there, just like little Carol on stage with the appropriate hair for the time. Right. Yeah. But when there's those pictures of you and Riser and Jerry Seinfeld in his first apartment, that's crazy. I know. I can't, like, it's so weird to picture just a bunch of Jewish kids trying to figure out how to do standup in New York City because I was one of them. Yeah. It never changes. I know, and I always feel like if I hadn't met Paul in college, because we were in the same theater group together,

I don't know if I would have found the road to stand-up, because he was the person who told me, oh, there are these comedy clubs in Manhattan, and told me about auditioning and all that, and I always felt like you need that person who kind of brings you into the fold, or else how do you find it? It's funny.

He was the first guy that I ever asked how to do stand up. Really? I don't know if I told you that. He was, I was in college and he was in, Diner was already out. And I had gone to the comic strip when I was in New York City. I was coming down from Boston and I saw Paul Reiser sitting in one of those booths. And I'm like, oh my God, that's Paul Reiser. You know, and I was excited and I went up to him and I'm like you know Mr. Reiser I really wanted to do stand-up I mean how do I how do I

how do I get started and he looks at me and he just says well you just got to do it that's right that's right that was it yeah that was it but I think also what's interesting about your career is that um because when you when you do stand-up and and it took me years to realize this, all you want to do is stand-up. And you really don't think, I mean, acting, yeah, but you want to do stand-up. You don't think about, I didn't anyways think about writing for television or producing television or figuring out other skills that I might have that relate to doing comedy. I was like, I'm going to be a stand-up. Yeah. Which is a little limiting and hard to do for the long haul.

It is, but what I think has really been nice, I'm fortunate with my career, is I always give great respect to the stand-up because it really is the thing that gave me everything. I mean, it gave me a writing career because I'd never written for sitcoms, but I was, you know, went way back with Larry David and Jerry Seinfeld to literally my first day of show business. You know, Jerry passed me and Paul on the audition at the comic strip. He was in charge. He was the emcee. Yeah. And Larry David was the emcee at Catch Rising Star. So I go that far back with these guys. And when they were specifically looking for people who'd never written for sitcoms before, you know to them corrupted by the system of bad sitcoms um i got a great break so you know even my corporate speaking that i do now which i love came from my stand-up

so i give it a lot of respect no of course but like i think a lot of guys get myopic you know like i did like i'm not gonna write i do my own stuff yeah and and i ended up in my garage broke five years ago so that there's always that possibility. But you did something that's very important that I do talk about in my book. I mean, you took the reins. Right. You didn't give up. Right.

You saw that you were good at something. Right. And you went after it and created it and look at everything that has come to you as a result. It's all from stand-up. I wouldn't have been anywhere without stand up. And I still consider myself a stand up to the point where if someone says that you're a great interviewer, there's part of me that's like, yeah, but, you know, you just saw me do stand up.

Take the compliment. That's another lesson. My mother would say. Is that in the book? Take the compliment. Don't question the complimenter. Well, I do quote my mother, of course, being a Jew, because also another big part of my I would say. Is that in the book? Take the compliment. Don't question the complimenter. Well, I do quote my mother, of course, being a Jew, because also another big part of my philosophy for staying in the business and staying alive in the business is, you know,

the old, you don't ask, you don't get, which I think is really important because it's also a fine line between not being a pain in the ass, squeaky wheel, you know, that someone looks the other way when you come but also kind of going after what you want and there is a way to ask people nicely for things or approaching people that's right um and standing up for yourself yeah absolutely yeah without being annoying right it helps if you have talent it helps if you have talent yes yes it helps if you have talent and you also have to not be afraid of no. Yeah.

That's a hard one. I mean, going on this press tour, I approach people about if my publicist couldn't get me on a certain show, I'll reach out to the host of the show and say, hey, it's me. I'm having trouble getting on the show. I'd love it if you could make it work. If you can't, no problem. Did that, it worked? It has worked so far.

Yes. Knock wood. Well well the other thing that you're saying too i i think about like about jerry and about larry and about something i realized in being in this business for a while is that it's important to maintain relationships as well with people that you like because a lot of times you know people come up together and if somebody gets an opportunity and you're and you're in the wheelhouse of what they need they're going to think of their friend first they're going to think also of of people they respect and they know it's it's just i never really maintained relationships because i was a lone wolf and and i and i burned bridges that was my style but it's nice to keep in touch with

people absolutely and being social and uh i think a good egg you back to you. I mean, look, I just am out pitching a show, a sitcom with Ben Silverman. And we go to NBC. And who do I pitch to? But my agent's former assistant. Oh, that happens. All the time. Oh, my God. I mean, thank God.

I'm nice to agent's assistants because I feel for them. But if I had been a real prick yeah that would have been the most uncomfortable pitch having her look at me like oh it's paydeck payback time that's right that's right here we go yeah and uh oh nice to see you carol thanks for coming in bye i'm gonna take your pitch and then i'm gonna pass on it fucker how about that exactly yeah that was for the uh chop chop let's go get my agent on the phone yeah i've been that guy i never did it right so i think i should read this book more thoroughly i love the i read the piece about soupy sales because i had a similar thing with where you just you know there's something about being in show business and when you're

young there's somebody that's going to like make you like yes that's my guy uh-huh mine was buddy hackett oh i wrote to buddy hackett you did i wrote to buddy hackett and he sent me an autographed picture wow isn't that weird and now knowing the kind of life that buddy hackett led and like who might have sent me that picture but you actually went and saw you went to where you heard that soupy sales 8 you read it in a magazine you and your family that's nice i love soupy sales i would rush home from school to watch him i read in a magazine you and your family that's nice i love soupy sales i would rush home from school to watch him i read in a magazine that he used to eat at the minetta tavern which i believe is still in the village yeah that's right yeah yeah and i asked my parents if we could go and really looking back now instead of them being you know horrible parents and saying honey there's no chance the

soupy sales is going to be a minuteetta you've read a map we we got dressed up we took the long island railroad we went to minetta tavern my father looked at the bill i'm sure he's like paying the inflated village prices yeah and um of course he was not there but still it you know it was amazing that i look back now that my parents were nice enough and sweet enough to like honey if you think he might be there, let's go. Oh, they were supportive. We'll get some linguine and clam sauce and check it out. And you're sitting there waiting for soupy.

Yeah. I know. But stuff like that, I think is important. Even that I left college, I finished college, but that I left going to school in Binghamton to start this crazy career of stand-up comedy. And you went back and finished? I went to Queens College. So as you know, Mark, in my joke, Queens College is very tough. You need a pen to get in.

But, you know, so I finished my last year. It's so funny. I did Bill Maher and I did all my jokes, you know, slamming Queens College. Of course, the first, you know, call I got Monday Monday after Mar was like, will you perform at Homecoming? So I'll be there in October, folks. Are you really? Yeah. I'm excited about that. That's interesting. Well, actually, I'm very

grateful to Queens College because in those days, I did an internship that was like, I had a professor who was like, you know, talk about your stand-up comedy, write a journal. I would like to hear tapes every now and then. And it really helped me a lot. Really?

Yeah. So, I mean, I really think it was very cool of them to let me do that course. Are you going to go, are you going to do stand-up or are you going to talk? I mean, I. I'm going to speak. Right. Yes. That's better.

But it will be funny. Yeah, of course. Yeah. I think. Because I couldn't imagine. I don't know who goes to Queen College or what it looks like now. Yeah. But I imagine that you going and doing the half hour

would be a little tricky. Sometimes, like, you know, I don't know what kids are thinking. Well, it's an alumni homecoming, so it's all cool. It's all good. It's great. You're a graduate. That did good. Yeah. So let's go through the, like, if you were, and I imagine you've talked about this before in terms of, like,

if you were to see this as some sort of beat-by-beat system to keep plowing through. It seems to me that, you know, while doing stand up, you know, having the courage to do what you want to do and trying it and then and then sort of persevering or sticking with it long enough to see if you can do it. Right. But then, you know, when there must have been some dark times. Absolutely. Were you like, how am I going to get work? I mean, you talk about auditioning which is a nightmare well i talk about you know i i got on the tonight show with johnny

carson which makes a great story sitting here and talking about that but i wrote about it because it took me 22 auditions to get on oh my god yeah 20 fucking two and you know you know as a comic after maybe the seventh time you're like, this is getting a little ridiculous. And that was all there was. I mean, at that time, I mean, what year did you do it? It wasn't like there was a million other showcases. No. That could validate you.

I got to see it for the first time in 1980. Right. And then I got on in 92 right before Johnny left. And I was doing the Letterman show this whole time. Right. But I still couldn't crack the Tonight Show. the Letterman show this whole time, but I still couldn't crack the Tonight Show.

But every, you know, so I talk a lot about tenacity and stick-to-itiveness because, you know, audition number 22, if you think I wasn't ready to say to them, are you fucking kidding me? Really? One more time you want to see me? And then it put it over.

So who knows? Yeah, you don't know. Yeah. And you don't know, you know what I'm finding is that you don't know why the decision is made you never know you don't know why the other 21 decisions were made you don't know like if johnny even knew who you were yeah or who was stopping you it's very easy to you know to think like some sort of larger entity is is stopping you yeah but sometimes it's just one asshole it can't't be that. It's one asshole.

It's like when people, when you get insulted on the internet, it's not the internet. Yeah. It's just one asshole. One person, one unhappy, cowardly person.

That's right, who has power. Yeah. But even out of the worst, darkest valley, and I write about it in my book, can come the greatest moment of your career. Like what?

For example, I was really at a horrible point in my stand-up, working terrible places. I met this new agent who was like, come to my agent, come to my office, and write down your gigs and how much you got. We went through it, and he was like, oh, you know, you got this and ho-hos,

I can double that. You know, you got this, it's Sir Laugh-a-Lots, I can triple that. Anyway, cut to six months later, literally, Mark, I'm working on the Jersey Turnpike doing ground round restaurant comedy nights. Okay. Where they can't even hear your jokes because the din of the peanut shells as they're shelling them on the floor. Okay. Horrible.

And I'm saying this guy like, where's the great gigs? He's like, Carol, I'm working on Frank. And I'm like, who, Frank Stallone? Because at this point, I don't see anything happening. He was Frank Stallone's agent? What do you mean, Frank? He was working on Frank Sinatra. Oh, really?

Yeah, but that's what I mean. Trying to open for him? Yeah. And I was like, this guy is out of his mind. And then he got me, you know, I'm still working on this turnpike and this exit. And sure enough, I'm working on a cruise ship. And you know, in those days, if you got a phone call on a cruise ship,

you know, one of your parents croaked or your house burnt down. And he said, I got you opening for Frank Sinatra in Vegas at Bally's Hotel. Oh my God. Yeah, he had a weird direct line to Jilly Rizzo. And it remains my greatest show business memory because not only was it, you know, interfacing with greatness and he was such a gentleman and such a pro. And, you know, I mean, it's amazing memory, but it came out of this dark hole of depression.

Ground rounds in a boat. It was over. There's no better metaphor for like a career ending than to be out on a boat. I know. It's like you're not even grounded. How long did you open for Frank for? I did, I think it was five shows. Yeah, it was a weekend in June in 1989.

And, you know, I was nervous about it, obviously, because it's like, oh, God, maybe this crowd's going to eat me up. And I called Larry Miller because Larry Miller had opened for him. And he was like, Carol, you've got it completely wrong. They're looking at you like you're Frank's girl. Go out there with that confidence. And I did. And I would open the show with, good evening, everyone.

And I was so happy when Mr. Sinatra asked me to join him here at Ballet's. And it really set the tone for the sets. And I have to say that I still kind of use that trick when I open for someone in a little bit of a scary situation. Right. I take ownership. I was glad when so-and-so asked me to join him. Gratitude.

Yeah. Yeah. So that they're comfortable. And it was amazing to watch him backstage backstage to watch him be like any performer when it's a hot crowd performing a little more opening up a little more when they're a little tight pulling back a little bit but he brought me out every night for a bow how isn't that and he also said some cryptic things i mean he was like uh that's carol eva she's big she'll knock you over for the phone okay she'll knock you over for the phone yeah i still do not

know what he meant but thank you for the compliment miss sinatra um and then one time he said there's garry lever wish my mother had been that funny it wouldn't have to work so hard the summer wind came right in there and then he started what did you like think like is this buddha do i have to decode this what does it mean i can't well, I think that's also an amazing thing about this business that I've talked to a lot of people, but no one's really talked about it. But I talk about it where you're with another entertainer, where these are guys you grew up, you came up with like Bill and Larry and Paul and Jerry who are huge acts now. But there is something amazing just knowing that we're just people.

And then that moment where you're all waiting to go on stage in a big venue or you're at someone else's show right and that guy you know like just a guy and then he's out there in front of like thousands of people and it's like there's something so magic about i can't even explain it it's wild isn't it yeah because i'll sit next to people like if i do a live show or even if you do conan or any of those shows or letterman this is just a guy yeah and then i don't know i don't know what it is uh-huh i still can't understand the magic of it i mean it just comes from time but this it's so uh it's so cool to be in show business sometimes it really is especially when you're standing right backstage and you're just watching yeah the transition from like you know whoever you're standing there with or even if it's you they bring the person up yeah

and it's just like it, it's show business. I know, I know. You've got to love show business. But I talk a lot, too, about the camaraderie among comics, which there is and built in. I talk about this story where I went to do this corporate gig, and I came by myself, like I'm sure you do without your agent or manager, and show up. And I see the mic on stage and the stand and then I'm like looking for the follow spot and I say to the tech guy like um excuse me I'm the act and I don't see the follow

spot and he looks at me like oh sorry Cher we don't have your spotlight I'm looking I'm like no you understand it's kind of important when you do a show in a dark room that you have a spotlight he's like well we don't have it so I'm like all right great I'm gonna you know start to think all right I'll figure out how to do this now Joan Rivers comes in because she was going to bring me on just for five minutes. It was so perfect, Mark, because she walks into the room. She sees me, says hello. She looks around. She goes, where's her follow spot?

The tech guy's face fell. She's like, are you kidding me? You don't have a follow spot even for me up there to bring her on? She did 10 minutes before she brought me on of like, if you are not nice to this Carol Leifer, I'm going to kill you guys because this is so unprofessional. It was the greatest thing. Yeah, it validated. And only another comic understands. That's right.

And the one with a little juice. Exactly. Who doesn't have anything to lose. Yeah. It's nice when they come to your defense. You said it. But that's another thing I shared, you know, something Jerry Seinfeld told me. There's not just one thing.

Right. Right. Exactly. Like when I had my sitcom, All Right Already, on the WB, you know, the day before, the day of the shooting, you know, that we were going to shoot it that night, the taping, Jerry came by. He could see I was a wreck. And he was like, Carol, there's not just one thing. And I was like, you're bumming me out, okay? Because I'm going to be taping my pilot. He was like, I don't mean it that way it's like look at it as another day in the

career of carol leifer because there'll be many more days like this right and many more nights it's not the one thing that's going to catapult you that's it that's that thing like right this is not it yeah your life goes on and same thing focus on your work focus on what you're doing give a great performance tonight. Yeah. But it ain't the be all end all. Right. So at this point in your career, I mean, you've been a stand up.

You've had your own show. You've written on other shows. You've written for the Oscars. You've done all this stuff. You have a life. You're respected. Yes. You're doing corporate events.

You're a writer. I mean, and I don't know that you would have imagined at the beginning, like, where you're like, I just want to be a comic that, you know, the way your life has gone. Yeah, yeah. No, it's really nice. And what I do really love about it is there is nothing better than stand-up. Stand-up is great. But there are times then when you get tired of traveling and you get lonely.

And then to be in a comedy writer's room with your buddies and laughing and that social thing is fantastic. And then you want to go away a little bit and write a book and be solitary. So it's great to like mix it all up. Yeah, well, I think that's one of the things that in my experience in talking to creative people and knowing that creative people listen to this is that your belief in yourself is going to fluctuate.

You know, but like at some point, if you're lucky and also a bit cursed, you realize like, well, I got to fluctuate. Mm-hmm. Yeah. But at some point, if you're lucky and also a bit cursed, you realize, well, I got to do it. I got to keep doing it. That's the biggest leap that I think people have to make

is this, if you're creative and you want to live the life of a creative person, that there is no, there are paths, there are ways to do it, but ultimately,

it's going to come from tenacity. Absolutely. One way or the other. Yes. Whether you end up being the biggest stand-up in the world, you end up being a writer, whatever it's going to come from tenacity. Absolutely. One way or the other. Yes. Whether you end up being the biggest stand-up in the world, you end up being a writer, whatever it's going to be, if you have a talent and you can figure out what the fuck it is, figure out how it can apply to whatever it is you want to do. Right.

And sometimes you have to make compromises. Absolutely. Yeah, but there's nothing wrong with making compromises if you're still honoring what you want to do. Yeah, yeah. And I mean, all those, you know, there are still those, you know, it's not just one thing. Examples every day. I mean, with my book, I knew the New York Times is going to, you know, review me.

And then, you know, that's the sleepless night. Like, what if New York Times hates my book, you know? And then you get obsessed about it. And thank God they love my book. Oh, good. You know, but that even if they didn't, it's like life goes on. You know, you move forward.

But there's always those things and you control what you want to control and can control and you screw the rest. That's right. Because you'll, you know, that will eat you up. And don't let it crush you

if you're disappointed. Right. Yes, exactly. Disappointment's part of life. And especially in this business. I mean, it's minimum daily requirement. Yeah. It's like, you know, there's a, it's just one of those things where you always assume

that the people that you're jealous of are the things that you want that other people have. There's this weird idea that like, well, they've got it made. And then, you know, you get to meet them and you're like, no, they're not that, they're not that happy. I know you're like, if that guy that they're not that happy I know you're like if that guy's got everything and that's how right if that's everything

I don't think I'll take everything I'm gonna have to figure out what my everything looks like well thanks for coming and I I'm so glad the book is doing well

oh thanks thanks for having me back Mark I'm sorry it took so long I've been busy no I know I wasn't trying to avoid you but the nine emails helped Carol

stick-to-itiveness squeaky wheel right not being a pain in the ass finding the balance yeah I never once did I go what does she want from me

all right all right just have her over schedule it it's always good to see you love ya Good to see you. Love you. All right, you guys. I'm, well, you know.

I just, I was in a relationship and, you know, relationships for me, obviously, as many many of you know have been all variations of difficult but this one was was actually going going going pretty well and you know and i've been you know quite honestly and i don't know if you've noticed this but you but you're my audience and i and i've been keeping my private life private private you know for a change so i so i can actually have a private life and and i'm sorry to to cut you folks out of the loop but i was finding that it put an added strain on the situation when I invite a few hundred thousand people into the room as a second and third and 300th set of ears. So, you know, but I had hinted at it, but I was seeing someone in another state. And, you know, it's just like it was great. And it just but it just became it

became too hard you know and it started to seem unfair to both of us you know the distance you know which for me i actually initially was was great because it it didn't enable me to enmesh immediately and then sort of annihilate any sort of possibility of real intimacy and you know we were able to spend a lot of time talking to each other on skype and stuff but but the thing was is just that um the distance is also like sadly was the thing that uh ended up making it you know very difficult to maintain you know longing is very frustrating and commitment is is like sadly terrifying to me at this point in time and i just i don't know really how to deal with making practical decisions when there is like just so much emotion involved.

And, you know, and this person's a great person. And I'm just, there's part of me that's actually beginning to understand why people stay in things that may not be that good or great, or just decide to be alone because the pain of beginning and ending things is fucking awful. And it's just, it's wearing my heart down.

And I can feel myself becoming cynical. And it's a fucking nightmare. It's just one of these things where why can't I just let go and get to that place of real intimacy? I don't know. Because I got work to do? I don't know, man. I think I'm just going to pull back and try to figure out what I really want. How would that be?

It's not bad to be alone, right? As long as you're not lonely, right? I mean, I don't know. You know what? I'll ask my cats. Yeah, that's good. That's what I'll do. I'll ask my cats.

It's okay, you guys, right? We're okay. You know what? I'll ask deaf black cat when he comes back around. How would that be if he comes back around? See, there's no shortage of longing ever. but so i'm a little a little heavy-hearted i you know i imagine some of you can read that some are more uh some of my more perceptive things but uh look i'll i'll talk to my cats about it and everything be all right so i'm happy to have mac mcconn mac mcconn here today he um

you know he was he was there man i you know years ago i lived with a dude in boston that was running his own label called vanishing point records his name was stan monroe he's actually out in carolina and carolina too but he got out of the the only band on his label was his band and just what he went through to try to run a label to get the vinyl out to get this before uh it was easy to work on the internet just you know boxes and boxes of records of a band that nobody heard of trying to fucking get some traction i mean it is a massive undertaking and it's pretty fascinating that not only has uh mac sustained merge records but sort of adjusted it with time to the market and to the needs of artists but he's also you know been putting out records with

super chunk forever uh so you know we're gonna have a conversation about that it's really a conversation i've not had on the show um the uh the conversation uh about um you know about running a label let's go to that now yeah well i mean we've been trying to talk for what a couple years now i'm not even sure how the relationship began of course it began because i was a fan uh-huh uh and knew that you liked music and i think maybe got in touch to see if we could send you some. Yeah, you sent me some, then you did some ads. Well, you know, Superchunk, your band, has been one of those ever-present bands.

It's one of those bands that started at the time where everything, like, where punk was sort of, like, evolving into this other thing. And then it was just, there was always a Superchunk album. Always. I mean, how many albums are there, seriously? I think there's... You think?

This is your band. I know. It's funny, because I tried to come up with this number for my kids the other day, because they're like, Dad, how many albums do you have? Yeah. I think there's 10 studio albums, and then several collections and EPs and things like that. Because I always liked bands that, when I was growing up in high school, buying records, I always liked bands that were constantly putting stuff out.

Yeah. There would be a new album, but then there would also be some other single that you're like, what is this on another label that's like, got to get that. Right. Just kind of spraying stuff out there. Yeah and then then all of a sudden there'd be these releases like from like before they were the band you knew yeah you'd be like what they were they were doing things in oh i was who's that guy i i was i would buy like records by

bond scott's band before acdc get the fuck out now i need that record i don't even know about that what do you mean bond Bon Scott's other band? You know, because those guys were all in like garage bands and things like that, you know, beforehand. Now, Super Chunk is your band. And John Worcester, who a lot of my fans know from Sharpling Show. And I didn't really put it all together. Like, you know, Super Chunk was always there for me. But not until you started sending me records that I have to go sort of like wrecking with Super Chunk. Like there's a big chunk of music that somehow I just fucking missed because I was locked into a more mainstreaming music mode when you were out, you know, punk rocking.

This is like in the 90s, you mean? Probably. I don't know if it was that music wasn't as important to me after high school for a few years there. I mean, I remember when Nevermind came out. Sure. And I remember that I started to get really back into it then but i seem to have missed a whole lot but when did you start playing so we started super chunk started in 89 and we started the record label merge at the same time but you were going like i got the book this is yeah but we had bands before that i was in bands before that starting

in in high school. I was in bands starting in, you know, 1983 or something like that. Right. But this is in North Carolina? In North Carolina. So I was in bands in high school and then post high school and then in college. So you were in high school? Yeah.

And junior high? High school and junior high. And you always played guitar? It's weird. I always played trumpet and then in like school band, you know. And then oddly enough, my sister, who I don't think has touched a guitar since then, was taking guitar lessons. Yeah.

And so she had an acoustic guitar around and I just started playing her acoustic guitar. Right. And teaching, trying to teach myself, I think it was ACDC songs. I think I bought a song book an ACDC song book nice and started to teach myself guitar that way yeah

and then I took a couple lessons at the mall at the music store Pearson Music in the mall and bought a knock off SG

because Angus played in SG yeah and and so that was my first guitar and I took a couple lessons and the guy kind of gave me the basics, and then I didn't really take any lessons after that. And then I was in bands and got into punk rock after that.

Punk rock made it easy. It did. So you just have one sister? I have a sister who's three years younger and a brother who's eight years younger. Eight years younger? Yeah. Whoops.

And he's a drummer. Really? And he plays drums for Bon Iver. Oh, I record a couple of their records yeah but okay so you're growing up in North Carolina that that is officially the south correct yeah I was I was born in Fort Lauderdale and we lived there till I was 12 and then we moved to then we moved to North Carolina yeah look you got out you would have been a different man you know it's so weird because I totally agree but at the time like I could not believe that we were leaving for Lauderdale. We lived on a canal near the beach, and it was like 70s Lauderdale, I think, was way different than 80s Lauderdale, or certainly now, whatever it is.

The problem with Florida is that, what defines Florida? I mean, is there a Florida sound? I mean, you would have been lost. You would never have found your- Well, that's what's so funny is that I remember distinctly being angry with my parents because I was like, we're moving to North Carolina. No bands play in North Carolina. There's going to be no- I was so convinced that Lauderdale got all the great concerts because I had seen Molly Hatchet or whatever, and I was like, I can't believe we're moving to this backwoods. I just had this idea of it that was so wrong. How am I going to see Molly Hatchet?

Yeah. And so it's ironic. Did you really see Molly Hatchet? Oh, that was my first arena concert. Three guitars, man. Oh, yeah. Oh, God damn. Beating the odds tour.

Wow. And so, right. So I was really bummed because here we live by the water. And Florida, my grandparents are from there. My dad was from there. My mom. They're all from Florida. And so I had this real, it's very imprinted on me, even though I recognize what's weird and terrible about Florida.

But at the time, I loved it so much and didn't want to leave. Of course, as you say, like, oh, my God, I'm so lucky that I didn't end up trying to be in a punk rock band in Florida. Yeah. I'm sure there are some great ones, were some great ones then. But in the early 80s, North Carolina and the South was kind of an awesome place to be for music, it turns out, which there's no way I knew that. What kind of business was your dad in that he's moving around? My dad is a lawyer, and he had a firm with my grandfather in Fort Lauderdale.

And then when my dad was, I guess he would have been 40. Yeah. He had a stroke. Yeah. And his doctor was like, and he recovered from the stroke, but his doctor was like, you need to do something less stressful than what you're doing now. And you need to live in a less stressful place. Because Lauderdale was super crime ridden at the time.

stressful place because lauderdale was super crime crime ridden at the time and and they're like all right they both gone to to duke uh in durham and so i remember that my dad like went to durham they both went to duke they both went to duke and so so my dad took a trip to durham there's one we're still living lauderdale he got a job yeah at duke bought a house just all in like a week. And then, you know, there was not a time when you could like, hey, let me text you that picture of the house I'm going to buy or whatever. No, he just did it. You know, he just like did it. He did what a man does.

He's like, we're moving. Yeah. Yeah. It's all set. It's all set. It's been decided. At least in my memory, that's how it happened. Like, I mean, obviously I was not consulted as a 12-year-old.

So we moved to North Carolina. Yeah. But I find that Florida still kind of like looms large in my mind in a weird way. Yeah. Yeah. Do you go there? Hardly ever. I go, my mother lives in Hollywood, like right out there at Lauderdale and I've grown to appreciate it, but I still don't know what defines it other than like this weird end of the road element to it. I feel like there's an old Florida thing that's kind of appealing,

and certainly the nature aspect of it is very appealing, the Everglades and things like that, and the Keys. Yeah, yeah. We would get out of the Keys and fishing a lot with my grandfather and stuff like that. That looms large,

but as a band, actually, we've had some great shows in Florida, and a lot of bands don't go there because either they don't think it's going to be good or because it really adds like a week onto any tour that you're doing. You know, to go down there, like to really do it,

you got to go down. It takes a while. But, you know, if I've found that if you do spend the time, like people will reward you for that. Like they're like, you came here. All right, we're here for you.

Like the next time you come, like we'll come see you again. You know? Yeah. Because there, I don't think it's, it's like, I never get the feeling that there's a big market for my comedy down there,

but they, they do come out a few people and they'll come out again. But there's something very kind of homogenized about Florida in its Florida-ness. Yes. Like, you know, you feel that, that people that may be like-minded to you

or i are either kids or they're stuck there for some reason you know what i mean yeah yeah so like i get the feeling that most people they don't even want to go indoors really uh in florida you know they just want to like hang out and maybe have a cocktail it's a it doesn't strike me as this cultural center of things happening unless it's for retired people. Right. And I hate to, and obviously, like, I hate to dismiss areas like that because, you know, frankly, like, in those kinds of places is where maybe some people are driven to make, like, the weirdest shit. Yeah. You know what I mean? Because they're like, I'm isolated, but I have ideas. So you're in junior high, and then you, did you end up going to college?

Right. junior high and then you you did you end up going to college right so in in junior high and high school i found out about is when i learned about punk rock because there was hardcore bands in in raleigh and durham and chapel hill but you were just a mainstream rock guy before i was just like main like acdc you know mainstream rock classic rock yeah like i loved it my my dad like had the radio on all the time in the car like Like, that was what I was into. Yeah. And then, but, you know, there's college radio stations, and I heard punk rock on there, as well as weird or, like, 80s things, you know, like Dream Syndicate or bands like that.

Dream Syndicate. Yeah, you know, stuff like that. Rain Parade. Days of Ron and Roses. The thing is, like, when you tried to go see a band, like The Meat Puppets, for instance, I tried to sneak in to see The Meat Puppets. Because you were a kid. Yeah. But I is, when you tried to go see a band like the Meat Puppets, for instance, I tried to sneak in to see the Meat Puppets. Because you were a kid.

Yeah, but I couldn't. I tried. Couldn't get in. Actually, the guy from the Meat Puppets, there's a... Which guy? Kirk?

I think it was Kirk. There's a club in Chapel Hill called the Cat's Cradle. It's still there, but this is in a different location. Yeah. It's pretty small. Maybe held 250 people.

Yeah. And so any band that you heard on college radio, if they're playing in town, that's probably where they were playing. And so Meat Puppets were playing. It's Meat Puppets 2 tour. And I'm like, I'm just going to go.

I would try this, the dumbest idea. It's like, I'm just going to get in there so early that they won't notice. I'll sweep over. Yeah, I'll just like be in there during sound check and just kind of like shrink back in a booth. I'll go in when they make the keg delivery. So I'm hanging out outside and I was like, I really like your band, but I can't go to the show tonight because I'm not old enough.

The guy's like, here, take this guitar. Like hands me the guitar case. He's like, just walk in behind me. I'm like, this is not going to work. I'm going to try it. Yeah. Walking in, I could feel a hand on my shoulder as soon as I walked past the guy at the door, Billy. Is he still there?

He's still there. And of course he knew that I was 15 or whatever. But it was so cool that they tried to get me in. But anyway, but at hardcore shows, they were all ages shows

and so that was the first bands I could really go see without my parents was like punk rock bands. Yeah. And that was such a huge thing for I think anyone growing up in that era

who got into punk rock. Who'd you see? Well, there was a local band called Corrosion of Conformity. It still exists. No. Yeah. And they were not only big in North Carolina, but they became big around the country. And so even when I moved to New York, they would play CBs and sell it out.

But do they still live in North Carolina? They do. They do. And so there's a band called COC. They were kind of the biggest local band then you know lots of touring punk bands would would come through obviously like suicidal tendencies agent orange it's like west coast bands um bad brains like you know descendants black flag like all these bands would come through and it's always an all ages show

so you could see all this stuff and it was like it was very like empowering not only to be able to go to see bands by yourself with your friends without your parents but also just to see these people that weren't much older than you you're like i could do that yeah you know i want to do that and just knocking it out i mean it's so smart that they did at all ages that that it's interesting because i never really thought about it that way that the independent spirit of punk rock was completely driven by kids you know you know both playing and saying like fuck we don't need to adhere to club standards. We don't need to try to get booked even.

All we got to do is have someone hook us up with a fucking place that can hold 100 people and do it. Yeah, and so people would put on shows. Like where were the shows? Like skate rinks and Mason Halls? It's funny. There was a skating rink. There was?

Yeah, there was a skating rink in Raleigh that had hardcore shows. There was a couple clubs that would do all ages shows and just not sell alcohol. Like during the day? During the day. There was a... One of my favorite shows I ever saw was the Minutemen with a band called Honor Roll that was from Richmond, Virginia. You saw the Minutemen? I saw the Minutemen

in a church basement in Durham, this church called St. Joseph's Church. Wow, must have been after the AA meeting. And it was like... I think it's a little too dingy even to have an AA meeting in there. It was like a, it was an unfinished basement, let's say. But there was a stage in there and they would have hardcore shows there. And it was, it was incredible just to see this stuff that was like blowing your mind up close.

And these were powerhouse musicians. I mean, the Minutemen were powerful. Oh yeah. And they were, they were pretty well known already at that time. That was on the Double Nickels on the Dime Tour. And so getting to see that stuff in the most random places just made you think, like, anyone can do anything. Like, if I can see the Minutemen in a church basement, anything can happen. You know what I mean?

Yeah, yeah. Well, were they able to make money or just get by? I'm sure that there was, I'm sure there were promoters that didn't do right by the bands, but I think for the most part, you're doing a door deal. Right.

A kid's putting on the show. Right. He goes, I'm going to charge $5. A kid. And if 200 people come, you get $1,000 or whatever. I mean, I think a lot of times, you know,

they would just get most of the door, bands would get most of the door. So if no one comes, you're kind of screwed. But if people come, you get paid. And you can get gas, food. I mean, you know, I think it was probably pretty different than the idea of like someone actually getting a guarantee. Right.

You know, of a certain amount of money. Well, yeah, you're just sort of winging it. And I don't even know how people fucking communicated. You had to set this tour up and trust people. Like, because there was no real internet, right? No. There's not even fax machines at this point. Yeah, you're just making phone calls, and some kid's like, yeah, it's cool, here's the address.

So you don't know what the fuck you're even driving into. It was amazing to get a copy of Maxim Rock and Roll, which is like a hardcore fanzine, printed on newsprint. And in the back there was scene reports. And so like anyone, you could just write a scene report about your town and they publish it like scene report for Raleigh, you know, Descendants came through and played an amazing show.

You know, my band Bloodmobile opened, we were awesome. I mean, just kind of like that kind of thing was great. And so, and you'd see that like in other towns, like, oh my gosh, like look at what all these people are doing in these other towns. We could do that here. But also I think that there was a lot of contacts.

Like if you want to book a show in North Carolina, call this guy. And so bands would just do that here. But also I think that there was a lot of contacts. Like if you want to book a show in North Carolina, call this guy. And so bands would just do that. All based on Maxim. Yeah. All on Maxim Rock and Roll. Maximum Rock and Roll. Maximum Rock and Roll. You find out anything you need in the back of Maxim Rock and Roll at that time.

It was incredible. And so people get famous. Like promoters, you'd be like, oh, you're going to do a show in Philly. Obviously you're going to do it with this guy. Like the guy who does all the Philly shows. Right. And so that's how the Philly shows. And so that's how the network was created. Now, as a guy that stayed in the business

and actually found success in a label, I mean, how many of those guys, like on the promoter level or on the musician level, actually continued to build into an empire or into a sort of remain in the business? I mean, that's a good question. But a lot of the people that, I mean, look, we just played at Coachella,

which is a festival that's put on by Golden Voice, at least partially by Golden Voice, which is an LA organization that puts on shows. They have been around since the punk era doing stuff, and now they're putting on the biggest festival in North America, music festival. You know what I mean? And, and, you know, so I do find that, I mean, it's interesting that you asked that question, because I do find that when I think about who I work with, and I think about their connections to that era, I go like, they are from that,

like so many people do still work in music from that era, who started out maybe putting on all ages shows. It always fascinates me, especially people on the other side of the business and the business i'm in is that as an artist you know you don't fucking know what's going to happen to you you like you don't know if you're going to nail it you don't know if you're going to lose it because as you get older and you know this as well as i do you know people who chose the lives that we have chosen a lot of people get lost yeah a lot of people disappear a lot of it gets sad but the guys on the other side of the business you know you start to realize about them it's like they had a fucking plan from day one our plan was like we're gonna rock or you know i'm gonna be a great comedian but they're like i'm gonna build this out i'm gonna have a you know an empire but who plans that who do you think

they do i think some people have foresight especially people who you know who understand that that the nature of that business i, I think some people luck into it, but I also think those are the guys, I never thought about making money. I just assumed it would come. But the dudes that think about making money, that's what they want to do. They want to make money.

But I always had the feeling that if we thought about that, we would definitely not make money. In fact, we would probably just make some terrible decisions, right? Yeah, but when you're a promoter, all you're thinking about is making money. Right, but I think the important thing is that guys that started out booking all-ages shows or booking punk shows in their hometowns, they weren't thinking about money then. And by the time they did think about money, they were far enough into it that maybe they had taken something with them from that time period of like,

this is how you treat people. I feel like one thing that I really like about having been in a band for so long is that you collect these memories or images of people that you associate with certain clubs like that in the network around the clubs that you played

over and over again, whether it's like First Avenue in Minneapolis or Great American Music Hall or in San Francisco. Like, it's a place all over that you just end up playing over and over again, kind of, and you just have, like, a comfort level there. There might be things you hate about those places

or that you love about them, but you're just kind of like, we know how this works. You know what I mean? Like, you just get kind of used to doing this thing. And even though, like, now, like, we don't tour nearly as much as we used to. We hardly tour at all compared to how much we used to tour. And I don't like being away from home because I have a family.

But at the same time, I do miss that aspect of it, that thing of there's a larger community out here that even though we're in North Carolina, we're all part of this scene. And we know that when we go to Olympia, we see Calvin or whatever. We know that when we're in Austin, we go eat breakfast at this place after every show you know like it's like being it's being in real life you know you make the trip you take a drive yeah they are the old friends you know i do that with some you know with some uh you know comedy communities but like it just seems like that whole thing i guess it still exists it's a young man's game but but but

the the feeling of being out in the world and in life and dealing with adversity of just performing in certain places, it's very exciting. It is. And I go back and forth about it because we definitely play shows now where we were in Helsinki in December and Copenhagen, there was a hurricane and it's five degrees outside and there's 20 people at the show and the party is like, what are we doing here? We don't have to do this anymore. You know what I mean?

But then part of me is like, we're in Helsinki. Yeah, but the 20 people that are here are like the best fans we've ever had because they're here. There's a hurricane. The government has told people

to stay in their houses yet these people are like at our show at this squat how was the show i mean i thought it was great and you might ask other people in the band they might have a different idea about that but i was back in the day you were at a squat no this is in december this is like last december super junk is playing a squat in helsinki during a hurricane you're still living it mac i mean you know part of me is like oh my god we're still living it part of me is like You're still living it, Mac. I mean, you know, part of me is like, oh my God, we're still living it. And part of me is like, we're still living it. You know, it's like, it's a very,

it's a two-sided thing that I think that we kind of are reckoning with all the time. Like what is worth doing at this point? Right. You know what I mean? Okay, well, let's go back though. So you start playing in junior high and high school. You get your first, you know, guitar.

You're in a band that's based around the sound of an ovation breadwinner. Yeah. And then what's your old man's feelings about what you're doing? My parents were very supportive of the whole thing. It's kind of amazing. I had nothing to rebel against in that sense. Did you go to college? Yeah, I went to Columbia in New York.

You did? Yeah. For the full ride? Yeah. You're a smart guy so i lived in so i lived in uh new york from like 85 to 90 but how does that go so you throughout high school you're playing in bands and obviously you're not a fucking disaster you got the grades and the push to go to columbia so you're managing your life you're not a drunk you're not throwing it away right and you're playing in bands but superchunk is not formed until after college it's not formed like i was in a band in high school and like our biggest

gig which was genuinely big for us was opening for tommy keen uh at the cat's cradle which was i remember him awesome tommy's great and uh so and that but we did like common like we did our own songs but also you know you're covering the bunny men covers, you know, your Echo and the Bunnymen covers, your Pretenders covers. What was the name of that band? Pneumatic Underground. There you go. Very high school band name, right? Uh-huh. And so, and then in college, I had that band Wax and also a band called Slush Puppies,

but those bands were in North Carolina, so we would just play when I was home on vacation kind of thing. During the summer? Yeah. So you didn't record with them? Recorded some singles. And before we started Merge- Who recorded the singles? Did you guys self-produce them? Recorded some singles. And before we started Merge... Who recorded the singles? Did you guys self-produce them?

How does that work? We recorded them mainly at this studio called Duck Keys Studios, which is in Raleigh. It's just in this guy's house. Similar situation to this, you know? Just like set up in his house. 16, or maybe it started as 8-track and then 16-track. And all the bands recorded there. And the guy, guy Jerry Keys the engineer

he still has a studio in his house he moved it out in the country a little bit he was just great to work with and he's like

any band that came in you know he's like I'm game to do whatever you weird weirdos are gonna do in here you know what I mean because there's some

weird bands and it was great having that resource of like a cheap place to record and the fact that it was in someone's house I think took some of the mystery out of it like no one could

psych you out and make you feel like you didn't know what you were doing because you're in their studio he was just like no we're just recording your music you know there's nothing crazy going on and so and we all ended up we put a box set together of 7 inches by all these bands right before

we started Merge. So it was like 87, 88. Myself, a guy named Wayne Taylor, a couple named Bill and Barbara printed the silkscreen, the covers. They have a silkscreen company. They make t-shirts for bands. So this was a business idea that you had to do regional bands in a box set. I think it was like all of us together thought like all these bands exist now. We're probably all going to break up in a year or something like that. And this is after college or during? is during yeah like let's put out

some let's make an artifact basically and so we made a box set of five seven inches one by each of these bands and then had a couple like record release shows where we played all the bands played and we put out the records and wayne kind of knew how all this worked, this guy Wayne, who was also in Wax, and that whole thing kind of demystified the record-making process for us, because we're like, oh, you just send the tapes to the pressing plant. United Record Pressing? And then you get them back.

No, we did it in a different place. We didn't start using United until we started Merge. I learned a whole lesson taking that tour of United. Oh, yeah, that's amazing. They're almost like Sweden. They're non-denominational. They't have any politics they'll press whatever comes in man if you're gonna pay for the record they'll press the record i think one of the only issues we ever had was that there was a record that had a picture of elvis on the label uh that uh it was

a rocket from the crypt seven inch yeah and i think they're like we can't we can't we can't put elvis on the you can't put a picture of elvis on here. You don't have the rights to that. Right, right. We don't want to get in trouble. I think we did that somewhere else. All right, so you figure it out. You demystify the process. And so you graduate college and you're like, I'm fucking in.

And that's when we started Merge. We started Merge about the year before I graduated. But did you start it before Superchunk? We did because I was in a band in college just with my roommates basically called Bricks. And we just recorded on a four-track. Played live a few times, The Space at Chase. That was another club downtown. But we played also at the Seabees Canteen, which is next to Seabees.

It's like the gallery now, Seabees Gallery. It's not there, and none of it's there anymore. Right. So I had this band, Bricks, that was like our bedroom thing. When we started Merge, the first thing we put out was a cassette by Bricks. It was like our bedroom thing. When we started Merge, the first thing we put out was a cassette by Bricks.

And again, it was more like, it wasn't like, all right, we're going to put this out and become like a band. It was more like, let's just, we went to the trouble of writing these songs. Let's just document this thing and put it out there. So then we had- But you had like the idea of the label at that time. I mean, since you're a musician,

you had the band and everything, but you obviously, this was the time of indie labels as well. It was starting, correct? Yeah. That was a viable way to get your shit out in the world before the internet and before, you know, to sort of work around major labels and trying to find a way to distribute your own music.

Right, because I guess for us, what was not appealing was the idea of, let's make a demo and then hope that someone else will be interested. Well, it's like, we're already interested ourselves, so let's just do it ourselves. Why have that extra step and hope someone else is into it? But did you think

you would make money? No, no, no. It was really just like, it was almost just like an art project. Right. It's like, we recorded this stuff ourselves,

let's put it out ourselves and then make 100 tapes. It's not a big investment. It was on tape. You know what I mean? Yes, cassette only. First two releases were cassettes. We didn't have enough money to press records.

Do you still have them? Yeah. Oh, good. Yeah. Do you have boxes of them? No, we literally had like a dubbing deck. Oh, really? Yeah, that was like our first big expenditure as a label was to buy a dubbing deck to sit there and run cassettes off at like high speeds.

I'm sure they sound terrible. So we did a wax cassette and a bricks cassette and then we borrowed some money from a friend of ours named uh lydia ely who lives in san francisco now and she lent us money for the first chunk single um and uh or maybe it was the metal pitcher single which was a band that laura and i had before existed on vinyl. It's so funny to me that like everything we're talking about, it doesn't exist anymore. That like, obviously records do, but the ability to record your own music,

the, the idea that you got, you got four track, you got to go to analog. Yeah. And then you're going to have to rip it onto cassette and then fucking dub those cassettes or get the masters to a label. But everything was sort of like,

there was just machinery. Yeah. There was machinery for sure. Exactly. It was all very like hand put together everything, you know. And you're cutting things on a splicer sometimes. Oh yeah, you're at Kinko's like making, like running off the labels on a Xerox machine

and then peeling them off and sticking them on the, I mean, yeah, it's hilarious. All right, so you borrow some money for the vinyl release. And so we start doing 7 Inches. And so then the first series of 7 Inches was like either by Chunk, which is our band was called at the time, or by other local bands. And sometimes even they would put up like half the money

to have the thing pressed. And then we would sell them and then pay the band back. But again, it wasn't really like, oh, if we sell this, we can make some money. It was just like, let's just hopefully we make our money back right don't lose money sometimes you'd have to you'd give the band would buy like a couple hundred copies to tour with right yeah sure band sell them on tour that was kind of their payment was like okay you get 10 of the pressing right you're not going to get any money from us but like get 10 of the pressing you sell those

on tour maybe that's your money that you make right right um but mostly were all just like, we have a record with our name on it. Like that was all we really wanted. Yeah, we get to do the cover art. Yeah. So that was like the most exciting thing about it. And it just kind of grew from there to the point where we could sell enough to make enough to press the next thing we were doing. And at the time, I mean, this is one thing that's really different from now.

At the time, if you put out a seven inch that was good and got reviewed in a few fanzines and played on a few college radio stations, you could get noticed in a way. Like we did our first Superchunk tour with two seven inches out. Now, like you put out two seven inches, I don't know how anyone hears about that.

Right. You know, because there's just so much stuff. always a lot of stuff you gotta you gotta wade through yeah and i feel like at the time it was a little bit easier smaller world it was a smaller world and and even though there's a lot more record stores those record stores had you know people would actually like look through the seven inches and see what the new seven inches were and and now what was the shift in the name from Chunk to Super Chunk? Well, there's a band in New York, kind of a knitting factory associated band called Chunk.

Right. Sam Bennett is like a percussionist, and he had this band called Chunk. And around the time we were talking to Gerard Cosway about signing to Matador, he said, you know, there's this band called Chunk in New York already. And we're like, oh. He said, I can ask them's this band called Chunk in New York already. And we're like, oh.

He said, I can ask them if you can also use the name because you're so different. It's not. That's more like an improv thing. You guys are a rock band. And he came back and said, no. He says, you can't use it. Right. So we had to just come up with something.

And it's really hard to come up with band names. So why were you meeting with Matador if you were self-releasing? Because all we could do was singles. All we could afford to do was singles. And we wanted to put out an album. So in our mind, we can't do an album. That's like making CDs and LPs and cassettes. The infrastructure, the business infrastructure was not something you guys had in mind.

We just didn't have it. But we also knew that we loved Homestead where Gerard had been. I remember Homestead. And we wanted to be on his label. Matador is a big label. Yeah, we were, I mean, at the time it was Gerard and Chris and maybe one or two other people because Gerard was just starting it after leaving Homestead.

You know, I mean, it obviously became like an amazing label. Well, that's interesting because those, you know, between Pavement and Guided by Voices and you guys, there was, you know, that was, it's interesting that it all evolved out of this punk rock sensibility, but it sort of redefined what became alternative rock, I guess, which was really more pop-driven than punk.

Yeah, I think that, I mean, I think that one thing that we had always, I mean, we're talking about Husker Du, I mean, Husker Du is like a punk band that had very melodic songs. And that combination was always kind of what appealed to me anyway, like Buzzcocks, Husker Du. I certainly liked stuff that was purely loud and fast

and just goes by in a blinding second without any melody in particular. But I really latched on to those bands. I mean, a band like Dinosaur Jr. is so melod so malot it's like all melodies the guitar solos are melodies the vocals are melody it's like it's all beautiful it's like someone said hey there are minor chords you know yeah yeah i mean it's just like we can get past three chords we can add a couple well it's real songs you know and and i think that that's what has allowed us to still exist as a band even, is that we were based on songs more than like a sound or anything else.

Right. So how many records did you do with Matador? So we did three records with Matador. And that built your following. That built our following. And by that point, Merge had also grown to a point where we could do full lengths on Merge. Merge started working with a label in Chicago called Touch and Go, and they kind of gave us the infrastructure to do full length records. from Boston. It's one of the first full lengths we did. Band called Lamb Chop from Nashville.

And we even started working with bands from overseas like the 3Ds from New Zealand. Like once you can do full length albums, then it opens you up

to being able to say to a band, like we can really put out your record and not just do your single. And what did you do for distribution? So we had,

so Touch and Go was a distributor. Okay. And they would, so it was like a manufacturing distribution deal, basically. And who was producing the records? The bands, always. It was all self-produced. Yeah.

And so, I mean, that's one thing that we've always kind of left. I mean, that's what I always assumed. That's how I assumed things worked in punk rock, was that you're the band, you make the decisions. You know what I mean? So like if we love your band, it's because we like your ideas. So like, why would we then say,

you should really work with so-and-so to make this next record. Right. Because then you're a suit. Yeah, exactly. Right. So the bands would generally just turn in their record when it was done. Like, here's our record.

They'd go record it on their own. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And it just started like that. And then, you know, like once you end up working with a few great bands, then you have a good reputation. Because people are like, I love Magnetic Fields. I'd like to work with those people.

But I think that we still saw Superchunk as like our job. Right. I mean, as like our main thing. You know. Yeah. You're a rock band. Yeah. We're touring, touring you know three or four months out of the year probably sometimes maybe more um and making records like at a pretty rapid rapid pace that eventually slowed down in the in the late 90s just because we i think we just got burnt out on that cycle yeah you know

yeah well i mean you did a bunch of records and you're getting older yeah yeah and worcester's running around playing for everybody. That's right. John has like a multifaceted career in music, comedy, writing. You know what I mean? Acting. And you've known him forever?

I've known John, I think I met John, I've known John's brother for longer than I've known John, John's older brother, Lane. But John I met through Lane but also through friends in Chapel Hill and when I saw his band play at one point

he was playing with a band called The Accelerators and so I'd seen him play drums and then when things didn't seem to be working out with Chuck our first drummer after doing a couple albums and some good deal of touring someone recommended John.

And I was like, wow, like I've seen him play. He's awesome. Yeah. And so we got in touch. And I don't remember how many rehearsals we had before the first show that he played, but it was not very many. And so that was, I guess, 91, I think.

So how does it become? Because I feel, I mean, you guys are, you know, it's like me in comedy. It's like that's where your heart is. That's what you came up in. But at some point, I have to imagine that the label became the bread and butter of, you know, how you were making a living. Yeah, I mean, I think that Laura and I didn't pay ourselves for Merge until eight or nine years into the label existing. The bass player?

Yeah, yeah. Were you guys romantically involved? We were when we started both those things, the band and the label existing. The bass player? Yeah, yeah. Were you guys romantically involved? We were when we started both those things, the band and the label. Uh-huh. How did that end? So we were a couple. It ended protractedly, I would say.

And so we were a couple until 93, I guess. That must have been crazy. It's kind of crazy, but it is also that thing of like when you're on obviously it seemed much more monumental then yeah even though now you think about it and it's like a you know a four or five year period in your life it's not such it's not such a as such a big deal of course it was like a big deal and we spent all our time around each other because we had the label and the band, you know what I mean?

Yeah. We're not doing anything else. Yeah. Except being around each other. So obviously it was weird and probably even weirder for John and Jim at that point, you know what I mean? Like, what's the deal with you two?

What are you doing? But we never really had an idea to break up the band or stop the label. Like it was just kind of like, well, this. How'd you end up so fucking grown up? This isn't done. Where's the drama?

This isn't working anymore, but we spent so much time and energy on these other two things. Why would we also toss that out? You know what I mean? And you got along still. Well, I mean, that's maybe not putting it a little bit more smoothly than it actually went for a while. But I mean, I think that we certainly get along now. And I think that even- Do your kids hang out with each other?

Not all the time. But I mean, if we're all out at like a rock festival together outside or like the farmer's market or something like that. Do they live in the neighborhood kind of deal? No, because Laura lives in Durham. Okay. And we live in Chapel Hill, so it's not like walking distance.

And you married a famous chef. I did. Now, I have to say, she was not famous when I married her, so I didn't marry her for her fame. You weren't climbing by marrying a chef in North Carolina. Right, right.

Her restaurant's very good, by the way. Andrea's a chef and she has a Great restaurant called Lantern In Chapel Hill it's very good I'll plug her restaurant I can vouch for the restaurant Alright so here we are So we're no longer a couple But we still have these two things

That are both going pretty strong at that point And so we just kind of I would just say we just kind of plowed through You know what I mean and like touring kind of sucked With the person that you just Broke up with after going out with for five years but again we just kind of i mean one thing about touring is that you're already kind of like on everyone's nerves that's all around you so it's just one more person to be on the nerves of you know what i mean so i've not talked to somebody who has a record label so how do you

like you know who are the the original bands when you really sort of felt it was becoming a business and you were making, started to make money. So you had super chunk and who else was on the label? So we're talking mid nineties, uh, Palvo, magnetic fields,

uh, three D's. We did the first corner shop record, uh, band called butter glory. Yeah. Lamb Chop. We eventually worked with Neutral Milk Hotel.

That was, I think the first record was 96 maybe. I never got them. And they were great yesterday at Coachella, by the way. They were amazing. And the roster just kind of grew and grew. Beatnik Film Stars is a band from England that we worked with. So you're doing all right. Yeah.

So the label's kind of growing and a couple things were kind of milestones for us. One was the Magnetic Fields record called 69 Love Songs, which was the kind of perfect thing. I mean, he'd made great records before, but doing something on kind of an audacious scale,

literally like writing 69 love songs, which I think was supposed to be 100, and then he just shortened it to 69 because that seemed more doable somehow. Putting out a three CD box set of all original songs was just like, it was like a news story for people. It was like a way to try to get their minds around this guy, Stephen Merritt, who's writing these incredible songs. And it's so

solid for a record that has 69 songs on it. It's like, you can actually just listen to it. You're not skipping over songs, you know what I mean? And that was, at that time, became like our biggest selling record. And I remember at the time he said, you know, we want to be a box set. And together with Touch and Go, we kind of thought like, man, like, okay, we'll make like 2000 of the box set because that's for like the hardcore fans and other people are just going to want to buy like one, two or three, like they're not going to go all in. But the box set just went crazy and we couldn't make enough. And so, you know, that thing ended up selling like over a hundred thousand copies. Wow.

Yeah. Which for us at the time was like, again, like this is, I've always thought that like, enough and so you know that thing ended up selling like over a hundred thousand copies wow yeah which for us at the time was like again like this is i've always thought that like we're while we're in the music business we're kind of just we're not really in like what people think of as the music business because for us for the music business at large hundred thousand records is not a lot of records but for us it was like life-changing yeah like what what the yeah like crazy yeah um and so that was that was amazing for us and then that followed soon after by neutral milk hotel in the airplane over the sea which became a hugely important record for like a ton of people and still is as is evidenced by the touring that that band can do now this this many years later but do you still

have the rights of that record yeah so okay so you actually have you know between some of the the people that have evolved into larger bands uh you still have some of that catalog yeah and i feel like that that is again kind of going even though like none of these records are punk rock records but going back to the idea of like what did you learn from punk well you know like treating people well yeah that you work with right not being an asshole and the fact that like as a someone in a band like you value the artists that you're working with and you know having been on record labels you know what you do and don't want from a record label right as an artist right yeah you know how you want to be treated how you don't want

to be treated and i think that that leads to relationships that we have with artists where we're still working with them 20 years later or 30 years later. Unbelievable. So what was, but after the success, I mean, what were the struggles in terms of like, well, how do we, was there conversations of, do we need a bigger distributor? Do we need to, you know, partner up with, you know, with a major label? I mean, I don't really know how that works because I know Matador now is part of Beggar's Group and I don't even know how that kind of thing happens. I mean, that conversation kind of came at us from the other side, major labels coming to us saying like,

hey, how can we work together? Right. And our attitude was always like, we can't work together because we've seen how that goes. And not to be a jerk about it, but I just mean like there was literally never a time when we were like, we need help or we need cash. If you weren't greedy. Well, right. And also like talk about like a fuck you to everyone that you've ever worked with. Like, oh, we signed a merge and now we're on what label? Sony.

Yeah. You know what I mean? So it just it really wasn't ever tempting, though. There were certainly and the people that we were talking to were very nice people, and were into music. It's not like you're just talking to someone who's like, I'm looking at your bottom line, seeing if we can make some money. They're into the bands.

Right. But it just didn't make sense for us ever to do that. But all the bands were coming to you because they liked bands who were on the label primarily. I mean, I think as as the label gets bigger obviously some people are just like we've heard of merge like you know do it yeah yeah they're interested yeah but but um that's always the weird thing about the artist sort of like someone likes us right let them put the record out they like us i mean i think that i think that it did have a lot to do with it though because i think that um i mean even you know win from the arcade fire said

that like you know they were fans of the magnetic fields you know um you put out all the arcade fire records yeah those are big records they are big records there are biggest records for sure what about and how did you were with spoon early on yeah we did um spoon was on matador yeah and then signed to a major label and which which decidedly did not go well for them. And then were dropped. And then we started working with them right after that. And then we did their next. You did big records with them.

Yeah. So was there ever a time where business wasn't good? Yeah, I mean. Or was it from the mid-90s? Did it just kind of build out? It kind of built out. But there's obviously like mixed in. There's kind of just off years, depending on what came out that year.

And I think that one thing that we've always been good at and caution is kind of like that's really Laura's department, like being cautionary and conservative when it comes to spending money or hiring or spending money on marketing or whatever, all the decisions you have to make, was that we've never been real crazy about that. We've never tried to grow too fast. Right. I mean, maybe we've actually grown too slow in some situations and not been able to keep up with stuff the way we could have been able to. But on the plus side, that means that if we do have a down year, we're kind of prepared for it because we've never gotten so big that like, oh my God, if we don't sell thishaging we have to start firing people or something you know what i mean how big is the operation i mean believe me i have that dream all the time that

like that's gonna happen but knock on wood so far like it's it's grown at a pace that we can deal with and how big is the operation now so i think there's 18 people that work there now yeah uh offices in Durham. Yeah, actually, a designer lives in Canada. She moved from Durham to Canada, but she's great, so we kept her. And so, and now you have how many bands on the label? I can never answer that question

because, like, there's so many bands, and there's so many, there's, like, a certain amount of active bands, and then there's bands that, like, they're still on Merge, even though they haven't put out a record in five or six years. And what's your relationship with them? Do you ever ask them, like, what's going on, fellas?

We check in. Yeah, I mean, you know, it's like we work. I got nothing. It's a wide variety of people that we work with, like East River Pipe. I don't know if we've sent you any of that, if you've heard that, but it's a guy named Fred Cornog who lives in New Jersey.

He's never played live. He's never tou live yeah he's never toured yeah he's put out amazing records and he just records them at home at his own pace and so like when the record's ready like we get a record you know what i mean and so there's that for everything from that to bands that are like really like we're making our record here's how we want the rollout to happen here's when we're touring like you know like planned out down to like the the dot but with somebody like arcade fire that's such a huge band now um you know, like planned out down to like the dot. But with somebody like Arcade Fire, that's such a huge band now, you know, what's your involvement with that?

And they, you know, who's the distributor on that? So the distributor on the new one is Capital, which is different than it has been in the past. Well, what's your relationship with Capital? How does that relationship happen? We don't really have a relationship with Capital other than we're like, the band does, exactly. So we're working with the band and capital all together on this but they're signed to you yeah so you do a percentage split with capital we do yes yeah and with the band

like it's all that's big distribution though i mean it helps you in the long run you know it helps hopefully it helps everyone yeah that's the idea. But I think what the band really wanted to do was just to make sure that... I mean, they have grand ideas. They do things on a large scale, and they wanted to make sure that that was all going to happen on the scale that they wanted to happen

and that the records were going to be everywhere and the marketing was going to be everywhere. Right. Which is slightly out of our wheelhouse for the way that we normally do things. You know what I mean? Right. But it, I mean, that is slightly out of our wheelhouse for the way that we normally do things, you know what I mean? Right. But, you know, it's like, again, I feel like we relate to Arcade Fire like we relate to all the other bands we work with as like, you know, partners in a way, you know?

I mean, it's like they're, I'm always hesitant to give Merge credit really just because without the the bands, like we're not doing anything. You know what I mean? Like they, they send us amazing records to put out and then it's our job to make sure people know about it. Okay. So you walked, you know, you, you came through my house. You see that I've, I'm recently re-obsessed or more obsessed than I've ever been with vinyl. I mean, what is your relationship with actual vinyl records? Has that business changed now? I mean, is it really happening again are people buying records do you what how do you feel like because i know a lot of your business has to be digital but i mean you send me records what's your relationship with records well it's funny

because i always have to ask i didn't have to ask you because i listen to your podcast but mostly i have to ask someone like hey i want to send you some music. How do you want it? CDs, LPs, or just to download? Some people are like, download's great. But I have... My relationship with vinyl is kind of what it always has been. I buy a lot of it. I love listening to it. And I find that I

become much more attached to any record that I get on vinyl than I ever do if I just... I mean, I use itunes i think it's a great service actually and we obviously sell a lot of records on itunes but i don't i forget what i have in my computer like i don't you know what i mean yeah my hard drive full of shit i never listened it's just in there somewhere and i love my ipod book for the convenience of it but mp3s frankly do hurt my ears after a while they do they do you have to readjust the vinyl

because you're like even listening to it you're like how come it's not as satisfying it's because like digital music's like crack i mean you could just blast it out it's all coming at the same fucking you know yeah it's hyped up in this weird way but like the nuance of listening to stuff on vinyl is like oh okay it was smaller than that and i feel like it's a time relationship because you know like if we would go downtown to get the new album by the fall for instance maybe you could afford to buy like two or three records yeah bring them back and you're like that's what you're listening to for the next week right over and over again yeah and you have to stay near like you physically have

to be near the turntable to turn the thing over yeah so you're just you're not just like i'm put this on and then just do 100 things like i. Like, I'm putting this on. I'm listening to this record. Yeah. And I found that because our CD player broke a while ago. Yeah. And before getting a new one, I was like, oh, wow, we're just listening to records all the time now. This is awesome. You know what I mean?

And I feel like, like I said, I think it's a time relationship because if you're listening to a record for the time it takes to like listen to it, flip it over, listen to the other side, you have to look at the cover at some point in there. Like that is time you've spent with that music that is like devoted to that music. Even if you're like paying your bills, whatever, while it's on, like you have to be close by

and you're involved in the process. Right, yeah. And so- And it does sound different. Yeah, it does sound different yeah it does it does sound different and it's it's a different feeling and i feel like part of our i mean to answer your question about how is vinyl doing vinyl is selling really well compared to how it was for a while there yeah i think the new super chunk record has sold maybe a third vinyl a third cd and a third digital that's not

necessarily typical for all the records we put out. Right. So vinyl is selling a lot more than it used to in the, say, late 90s, early 2000s. But it's not selling enough to replace all the people that aren't buying anything anymore. You know what I mean? So it's a two-edged sword. Everyone's like, vinyl's back. I'm like, it's back, but it's not back enough right to save

everything right you know what i mean so i feel like it's awesome in the sense that it's creating what we what's part of our thing that we have to do as a label i think is create a relationship between people and the music that they feel strongly about to the point where they don't feel like i should just have this for free or like this doesn't mean anything to me like this means the same as like that coffee i just threw away right like i feel like we have to create an emotional relationship for people between the music or just give them the way to have that relationship we can't create the relationship well i mean it's weird because you and i grew up with it i mean it's part of our dna to to buy records and you know i got away from it obviously for

years but but once it's back it's back it's hard to stop once well yeah because you're looking at him like that's my record well and now there's so many more things available now it's like yeah i never really had a chance to buy an album of nigerian disco from 1979 but now i can buy like 10 volumes of that if i want to you know what i mean yeah and so it's like oh my god like now there's too many things i want right but but but i guess my point is that like i feel like the reason that it's back is both people like you and I that maybe stopped for a while and came back to it, but also people who never had that in the first place. And they're like, this is fun.

It is. You know, like this is fun. It's fun to look at records. And I think that Record Store Day is, again, I have conflicted feelings about it because it's once a year. Yeah. And everyone goes crazy about it. it's once a year and everyone goes crazy about it.

Right. Puts out really cool stuff and people stand in line starting at dawn or whatever. Yeah. But I'm just hoping people come back every now and then? Right. Or is it just this one frenzy and then you're like, wow, I can't wait until next year. You know what I mean? I don't know.

That's not a solution. Well, I just like the barter element too. Is that like all those records that everybody stopped playing in the 90s through now are out in the world somewhere so the interesting thing about going to use record stores and digging stuff up is like there's no shortage to it because you know you're looking at how many records were sold in the periods where records were sold you know many of them are gone or many of them are damaged but there's still this ever never- ending ecosystem of boxes of fucking records that show up and uh and i i love it you know what i like finding is records that came out in the 80s yeah that then people replaced on seat they're

like i'm getting the cd of this and traded in all their records in that whole wave of like everyone replacing their stuff on cds because those there's some stuff there that then maybe went out of print altogether right that you can find those lps that people traded in do you see a time where you're just going to be like no maybe we'll go out with super chunk once or twice a year i mean i i really go back and forth on that because if i'm not doing music i start to go a little crazy like i don't think i could just do the label i don't think I could just do the label. Right. I don't think I could just

do the business. Yeah. Like, you know, I have a studio in my basement and like, I'm writing songs all the time and whether it ends up being

a Superchunk record or not is whether I can kind of like rope everyone in. My thing was like, I would love to make another record with Superchunk. I think we all would on some level,

maybe some more than others. Maybe me the most yeah but only do it if it's going to be awesome because if someone waits 10 years and go like oh you made a record after 10 years and it's just not that good like that would be the worst that one's well received oh yeah they've both been really well received and it's it's very gratifying um as john said recently you know I think that people have an idea that we were bigger than we were in the 90s than we actually were. So it's not like we're going to tour the world doing reunion shows on some larger level. So it really is more for us.

It's interesting to me because I talk to a lot of guys that have had arced out. me because i talked to a lot of guys that have you know had arced out and you know sadly uh mainstream music is so youth driven that when people like you who who obviously become craftsmen and become you know you know mature artists it it is quite possible and probably probable that you are on some level doing the best work you've ever done but the the the sort of context of it is different that you know it's not you know it's it's not some hot, sexy, kind of rage or youth-driven type of thing. But it actually should be better now. And then just by virtue of the way... Because you know what you're doing.

Right. But by nature of the music market, all of a sudden when you've finally matured to where you need to be, the audience is now either your age or is hard to access. Yeah. And I mean, it's very gratifying when you see people at shows that are young yeah you're like yes it's not just it's not just us you know what i mean that we're playing too we're not some sort of weird uh you know nostalgia tour for the 1200 people that we have nationwide but at the same time you see people that have been coming to see you since 1990 or whatever, and you go like, I love you.

Like, how could I not love you for coming to see us for 24 years? Nice to see you guys. So you can't discount any of it. You know, someone asked me yesterday, like, how long are you going to keep like pogoing on stage or whatever? You know, and I was like, well, I don't know. Like, sometimes I do think like, is it just humiliating? Like, is it just like embarrassing?

Like, who's the old guy jumping around on stage like he's not old? Hey, I think you got to go with what you feel. Yeah. If you still feel it, do it. You're right. Sometimes I feel it and then later rethink that feeling. But I think that like, I think you're right. If the feeling is genuine, just do it.

I mean, yeah, there's nothing not humiliating about most of life. That's true. And I think that one thing, it's true. And I think that one thing about being in a band long enough to not give a shit, whether it's humiliating about most of life. That's true. And I think that one thing, that's true. And I think that one thing about being in a band long enough to not give a shit, whether it's humiliating or not. Yeah. Is kind of like one of the rewards. Yeah.

That's the big win. Like, hey, I don't care if I'm embarrassing myself. I'm having a good time. Fuck you. Yeah. Yeah. Back in the old days, it was just fuck you. Now it's like, fuck you.

I'm having fun. Yeah. Thanks, Mac. Thank you. it's like fuck you i'm having fun yes thanks mac thank you that's it folks that's our show i hope you enjoyed that uh carol leifer special guest mac mccon good to talk music business for the first time really go to wtfpod.com for all your wtf pod needs check the schedule app. Upgrade the premium app. Stream all 500 and some odd WTF episodes.

Oh, God. What else? What else? Just coffee.coop. Available at WTFpod.com. Get the WTF blend. I get a little on the back end there. Oh, my God. Check the calendar.

Did I say that already? Got a lot of gigs coming up. I'm sweating. I'm sweating here. I'm sweating in the garage. It's hot. Oh my god. So much is going so well. But the personal stuff is so hard.

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