WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 530 - Jay Bakker

Episode Date: September 3, 2014

Jay Bakker was thrust into the world of televangelism as the son of Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker. When their empire came crashing down, Jay struggled to survive the wreckage. He tells Marc about his journey and where it has brought him today. Also, filmmaker Jordan Brady stops by to talk about his new documentary, I Am Road Comic. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com. Calgary is a city built by innovators. Innovation is in the city's DNA. And it's with this pedigree that bright minds and future thinking problem solvers are tackling some of the world's greatest challenges from right here in Calgary.

From cleaner energy, safe and secure food, efficient movement of goods and people, and better health solutions, Calgary's visionaries are turning heads around the globe, across all sectors, each and every day. Calgary's on the right path forward. Take a closer look how at calgaryeconomicdevelopment.com. Lock the gates! All right, let's do this. How are you, fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fucking ears what the fuck sticks what the fucksters what the fuckadelics what the fuckleberry fins what the fuck minister fullers mark maron here this is wtf welcome to the show a full show a pack show again we do these little interviews these days occasionally sometimes in a few minutes i'll be talking to jordan brady about his documentary i am road comic

which i am in because i am road comic why come from that i come from a history of that i come from that weird post comedycomedy boom time before the advent. Is that the word? Advent? Before the appearance or the reality of alternative comedy venues when all you had was a comedy club and the three slots they had available for their regular shows and their open mic night maybe once or twice a week where you'd go and you'd wait and you'd try to get on

to do your three to five minutes in hopes that you might land a guest spot on a real show and then maybe get that coveted opening slot as host and then after years perhaps move up to feature act and then because it's your hometown never be able to headline unless you get too big for them to say no to. That's the way it used to work. That's the way it was. So before I talk about that a little more, before I lead into Jordan Brady, who also did the movie, I am comic. He was a comic himself. after Jordan Brady.

I'm going to talk to Jay Baker, the son of Tammy Faye Baker and Jim Baker, about his spiritual quest and his quest through addiction and through trying to establish his own church of sorts. He's also a fairly prolific writer about religion and spirituality. I was excited to have the opportunity

to talk to him. He came down to talk to me from Minneapolis. He's's a fan of the show and i thought it was a story that had to be talked about and had to be told to me i was interested to meet him sweet guy so before i get into those talks let's talk about what i got coming up nevada city film festival that's in nevada city california that's this friday that's tomorrow for those of you who are listening to Let's talk about what I got coming up. Nevada City Film Festival. That's in Nevada City, California. That's this Friday. That's tomorrow. For those of you who are listening to this show on the day it is released,

I'll be doing two shows with the wonderful Nick Thune. I also have a few oddball dates coming up. September 7th in Denver. September 12th in Mountain View, California. September 13th in Irvine, California. September 19th in Dallas. September 20th in Houston., California, September 13th in Irvine, California, September 19th in Dallas, September 20th in Houston, September 21st in Austin. Those are the last of the oddball dates. I'll also be doing several Trippany House dates here in Los Angeles at the Trippany House that is

in residency at the Steve Allen Theater here. Many of you came to these shows. It's a cheap ticket. There's parking. I don't know what's going to happen. It's a no-pressure situation for me, but I do know I will stay on stage for at least an hour. That's September 16th, 23rd, and 30th, and October 14th and 21st. And, of course, the LA Podcast Festival, Saturday, September 27th. I'm trying to book a fun show for you, but there's all kinds of deals to be had over there. 27th. I'm trying to book a fun show for you, but there's all kinds of deals to be had over there. You can go to, again, WTFpod.com and get the links to these shows and these tickets.

Long, strange trip. Yes. Yes. It's provoked me to talk to you when I'm talking to Jordan Brady, to remember where I come from, to remember the path here to this mic, the path to the Oddball Festival standing in front of 15,000 people, the path I took and could not get off of, nor did I know how to get off it, nor did I even entertain any other real choices with any momentum. There was nothing else to do but be a comedian for me. I'd hung around the comedy stores at the comedy store the other night talking to uh to the uh to the master joey diaz just thinking uh about what it was like standing on that patio and knowing that i'd stood on that patio 25 years ago trying to be a comic trying to find my way in i tried to find my way in in a lot of different cities but once i started working in 1988 in the one-nighter circuit of the boston

new england regional area doing one-nighters driving five and a half hours to machias main in my vw golf to open up for uh frank santos the x-rated hypnotist at a college now you know in a in a town that is the furthest point east on the coastal United States, Machias, Maine. I remember driving hours upon hours into the New England landscape to do one-nighters. I remember doing feature work in clubs across the country. Thank God I moved to San Francisco in 1992, and that was a pretty strong feature, and it didn't take me long to start headlining. I was able to sort of skip a lot of the tedious feature work just because I just had the goods, and I'd worked hard to get them. That's what doing one-nighters in New England and anywhere you can get them will do.

It makes you tough, man. But I think a lot of people don't really appreciate what some comics go through it's a different world now comics can sort of choose their own path and pick their own room and avoid the club system entirely what's left of it and find their own way and that's fine it works but some people don't quite understand what the what the job of comedian is necessarily a guy came up to me at the comedy store last night and a new comic been in it two years he said does being a comedian help you with auditioning and i'm like i didn't know what he was talking about that's why you're getting into it always had sort of a a weird thorn in my side about cats who'd get into doing stand-up just

so they can get a few minutes together to showcase for other things. It seemed like a bastardization that they were carpetbaggers in the profession that I chose and love. But, you know, I've grown a little soft over time. And, you know, whatever anyone's got to do, they got to do it. And there's obviously plenty of room for everybody, not necessarily to get paid, but certainly to dump their shit out into the world, which is fine. And I still believe that the guys that have the goods and that can do the job and that can you know find their own place within it within the business and on stage are gonna are gonna do okay one way or the other gonna make a living it might not be an easy one and some guys just fall away to the side

now okay so let's talk to jordan brady and. And I want to tell you people out of the gate here that you can go to IamRoadComic.com to buy the movie or you can watch it on Hulu. And this is me and Jordan. I've known him for years, and you'll feel that when we. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton? The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead

courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com. Calgary is an opportunity-rich city home to innovators, dreamers, disruptors, and problem solvers. The city's visionaries are turning heads around the globe across all sectors each and every day.

They embody Calgary's DNA. A city that's innovative, inclusive, and creative. And they're helping put Calgary and our innovation ecosystem on the map as a place where people come to solve some of the world's greatest challenges. Calgary is on the right path forward. Take a closer look at CalgaryEconomicDevelopment.com. Talk. So Jordan Brady, film director, documentary director, commercial director, former comic.

Former comic. Former comic. I remember you. I remember you. I remember you with your hair. It was good looking mane of hair. Come on, man. It was sort of like a mullet, hair metal. Soccer cut, they called it back in the day.

Soccer cut? Hockey cut. Really? Oh, so it was a kind of full mullet then. Yeah. And what was it? Like the 80s? You were doing the, you know, you dressed, you know, modern?

Modern? You're so polite. Was that? No, I just remember headshots. You had a thing. Yeah. You had a thing. Had a look.

Yeah. Tried for a look. Specifically 80s look. I mean, you got to look at those headshots and be like, that was that time. Sadly, even in the 90s, I had an 80s look. Did you? I think that was my demise. Yeah.

What are you leveling off on now? I'm just trying to keep it together. I'm like 2005 right now. You know, when I ran into you again, I guess for the first time was in Canada. And you were working on a commercial. And you had done I Am Comic, which I had seen. You're a little surly about not being in it. I see.

Like, I must have blocked that memory. What a dick I was to you about not putting me in that movie. You weren't a dick about it. I was reasonable. You were very reasonable. memory what a dick i was to you about not putting me in that movie you weren't a dick about it i was reasonable you were very reasonable i just i think at the time you made most of the movie i wasn't really on the radar yet and you're like oh yeah marin you probably thought like he's kind of the same boat i am i wonder what he's doing now i was in the game baby banging your head against the wall you do the i am comic movie which got some traction people dug it so the new movie i am road

comic you know what do you see as the distinction? I mean, now they're both available. You can get them on iTunes and Netflix and whatnot. Right now it's on Hulu. I Am Road Comic. I Am Road Comic is on Hulu. And I Am Comic. It still lives on iTunes.

You can buy it. Yeah, you can buy it. And I saw a DVD. It wasn't in the bargain bin, but it was actually leveling the bargain bin. It was under one of the legs. Don't want that bin to shake. Right. So you level it off.

But, I mean, you could get I Am Comic pretty much anywhere. But I Am Road Comic, what made you do this one? What was missing? Nothing was really missing. I mean, I'll be honest. Yeah. I Am Comic, it gives me a connection to the community of comedians that I respect and love. I love comedy, but I'm not a practitioner regularly.

Regularly. So I like that. I like being in that world. And I Am Comic answered a lot of questions when I would be shooting commercials, when people, like YouTube made me do I Am Comic. Right. People on set with their laptops, not paying attention to what we're shooting,

would be like, hey, we found this clip with you in the hair and the green suit. Yeah. So what was that like? Yeah. Do you know these guys? I mean, I remember shooting in Atlanta. Yeah.

And the guy's like, do you know Mark Maron? Uh-huh. My kid loves his show, and you sent the guy the T-shirt and a bunch of stuff. It was really cool. So I said, I'm just going to make a documentary about that. So once I made I Am Comic, different comedians or documentarians reached out. Stephen Finehart's.

The director of Eddie Peppertone's Bitter Buddha movie, and he just directed Eddie's new comedy special. In Ruins. In Ruins, yeah. Now on Netflix. Young gun, young director. Great kid. Yeah. So people like Stephen call and say and saying hey i'm making this comedy documentary like i had asked people hey what what advice do you give me making a documentary and uh don barnhart comedian

hypnotist vegas act who made one called uh finding the funny that's the name okay so he calls with some questions about that and at the end of the documentary. So he calls with some questions about that. And at the end of the conversation, true story, he goes, hey, I'm booking a gig up in Kennewick, Washington. Yeah. At Jack Diddley's. Do you want to do the gig? Jack Diddley's?

And I go, Jack Diddley's? What did I do? He goes, you can co-headline. Go up with a friend and you do like 40 minutes each. When was the last time you did 40 minutes? When I had that haircut. I mean, I headlined some colleges. I did some shit, but I mean, I had maybe seven minutes.

And I go, Don, I don't do it. And he goes, no, you'll figure it out. Yeah. And I was like, fuck. Now, Jake goes with me. My son goes with me to clubs. I did a set a couple weeks ago. Struggled to do 10 minutes.

You're back in it? Just for fun. When people, by mistake, will ask me if I want to do it. Okay. Flappers in Burbank. Hey, do you want, like, they filled a form. The improv. I got 17 bucks, like, the end of last year doing the improv.

How does that feel? It's, I got nothing to lose, man. I don't give a shit. No, but I mean. I'm not afraid to fall out the sky. It's easy. It's fun. It is. It's a blast because I have nothing to lose, man. I don't give a shit. No, but I mean- I'm not afraid to fall out the sky. It's easy. It's fun. It is.

It's a blast because I have nothing at stake. Yeah. I'm not in the Jordan Brady comedian game. Right. So it's a fucking blast. You and Judd Apatow, back in the clubs. Oh, yeah. Back in the clubs.

He's been hidden in there. I see the Instagrams. His standup was funny. Clearly, he's got some talent, that kid, Apatow. So what was it that you were setting out to do with I Am Road Comic? Because you had gone up to Jack Diddley's. I went up to Jack Diddley's. Yeah.

I cobbled together 25 minutes. Very hacky, some of it. Really? A lot of crowd. Really? Yeah. Thanks, Mark. Thanks.

A little crowd work. And I play the fool in the movie, but it's not about me. It's about people like yourself, your interview, which I thank you from the bottom of my heart for doing. I love doing it. Well, we both had a friend in Frankie Bastille. Yeah. And the Frankie Bastille story is a big hit, both comedically and emotionally, because

that guy sums up the road. He sums up, he was running from the law at some point. He was servicing an addiction, and he just lived the road. Got to do your time. Yeah, and there was a badge of honor to just partying and living on the couch and staying in comedy condos. So your story about him and then your point of view about the quote people say from you is, that's the big trick.

How do you balance developing a persona with servicing the road? So I went up and did it and I interviewed you, Pete Holmes, who I call the heart. I call you the soul. TJ Miller I followed for a couple days down in San Diego at a club. Not even a big venue. Just the American Comedy Club. And the joy that he has doing those intimate, what I call an intimate audience, a club. Yeah.

Where he could go sell out a small theater, I'm sure. Yeah, you would think. And then interviewed Maria Bamford, Doug Benson, Jen Kirkman. I think Nikki Glaser is the only person in both movies. And Wayne Fetterman. Wayne Fetterman went on the road with me. Yeah. Because we used to do like a musical act.

I think Nikki, out of all the people you mentioned, is, you know, really the most sort of what we knew the road to be. You know, like she does the clubs oh yeah you know and people like maria and pete you know they they're they're they're delicate flowers and that uh you know these were you know not maria well maria a little bit but there was definitely a generation that was us that you know i didn't start in alternative rooms you know you didn't there was not there weren't no it's like you go to your club and you wait around, you pick your city, and then you fucking just take the hits doing open mics until you get the opener slot,

and then you come up through the ranks. Well, in the South, we would drive from Virginia to Atlanta to do five minutes to get booked. But if you got booked, he'd put you in eight clubs, and you would be the middle act. Right, the one-nighters, the two-nighters. The comedy zone and then the punchlines, like this chain.

Yeah, but a lot of the people that work now, like Pete and those guys, I mean, coming up where you have alternative venues and you're able to build your following differently. Maria is like the best there is right now, comedically. And one of the reasons is, is that,

you know, she's by no choice of her own had to protect, you know, what is specifically hers by virtue of not really being able to do it any other way. And because of that, you know, I don't think it's been easy for her,

but she is a, you know, really one of the best comics working. Agreed. That's part of the big trick is whether it's on the road or in town, is sticking to what you do and protecting that. Well, the funny thing is, I don't know if you listened to the Bob Newhart interview,

but that to me was very telling about what we're talking about. When he became the biggest comic in the world, he had not done comedy. It was fascinating, dude. He had kicked around a little in advertising and did some accounting work and then he and a buddy had put together some demos to be the next bob and ray they were making writing radio sketches and then his buddy can't cut it

and decides to get a job and bob is just hanging around and he's doing some local tv man on the street things and warner brother records the guy he's doing the TV show with locally, is a big DJ in Chicago. Warner Brother Records is looking for acts. And this DJ says, well, I know a guy who does comedy, Bob Newhart. And they're like, well, have him make a demo for us and send it. So he calls Bob and says, put those bits together. You used to do it.

What's his name? Make them your own. And let's do a demo and send them to Warner Brothers. That became the button down line? Not quite. But some of it. So Newhart does that. And they send it to Warner Brothers. That became the button down mind? Not quite, but some of it. So Newhart does that and they send it to Warner Brothers. They're like, great, let's tape him at a club one night.

And he'd never been in a club. He'd never done anything on stage. And it took him a year to get him a gig at a nightclub where they could record. And it was an opening gig. He was opening for four days and the headliner, who wasn't a comic, it was another type of act, agreed to switch the bill on the weekend so he could record his record. And when he went into the week, he only had four of the seven bits or whatever for Button Down Mind, and they helped him structure some new bits.

So he went up there almost cold with these scripted pieces. And then in the interim after that gig, he said the Friday night, some woman was drunk and they couldn't use. So it was all this one Saturday night show. So in the three months it took for them to produce the record, he did his first two comedy gigs, one in Winnipeg and one in Windsor. And then the record drops, and he's an international sensation, basically. But now the benefit, the reason I'm telling you that is that he gets to enter the life of comedy of people knowing that record. So he could tour on that record and people were coming to see that right and they were already his people and i

asked him i said well what if you had to go the other way and some of your peers and you know done the feature spot for 15 years before you made your break he said i couldn't do it right right right because he wouldn't he would have to figure out how to accommodate that that requirement what is a learning curve like for people that have a YouTube bit and they get headline status right away? Well, which ones have lasted? I mean, in my mind, Bo Burnham has really proven to have the goods because he's a bright guy.

He's a creative guy. He's got this incredible musical talent. He's prolific and he keeps churning out bits, right? Yeah, right. He figured it out. But I mean, a lot of those, I think a lot of those guys, and even Last Comic Standing, you know, these guys who have been around a long time,

I mean, you know, you can make bank for a year, touring on that maybe, but then, you know, you're kind of back to where you were usually. It's very tricky, you know. I've always said that when you're a stand-up and that's what you do, you know, if you're lucky, if you make a break, you've got a five or six-year window, and, you know, either you're going to make a tv show happen or whatever you're gonna do you gotta you gotta grab that money i remember uh in the early 90s doing colleges

at good money and working in clubs headlining some taking middle work watching uh going to dana gould's one-man show. Right when the one-man show became a thing that people were doing. The first one. The first one. And he's a genius. And I said, I don't have that. No one has that.

I don't have that, and I'm making money doing other stuff. And I started directing. It was Dana. Dana shut you down. Dana was the one. And I love him. Yeah. I love my follow-up career.

I take my clients to shows of him. Well, he's an interesting idea because at the time, you know, because he's one of our, he started when he was in his teens too in Boston. He was in the Sex Fest. Yeah, briefly. But, you know, Dana's a great example of how comedy has changed because, you know, his comedy, like he can, watching Dana Gould perform on any night is like watching the history of show business because he's he's a great mimic he you know he's a great he can do you know long bits with

several characters in them he can do uh you know he's you know he's a great joke writer and teller but like he can do it all you know he's like he can do it all but at the time when we were coming up when I was coming up because he was a peer of mine, he was still a little too dark. Oh, yeah. He had the framework of, you know, he comedically was, you know, everything he needed to be, but, like, it was still a little like, well, he's got... Yes. And he, I think he, I don't know if you've talked to him,

but it seems to me that as a stand-up, you know, he hit his peak specifically because the audience wasn't quite there for him, and now it is, and he's back. And people like Maria, and he's back. And people like Maria, like, if they had started at the time we started, you know, trying to middle and do that stuff and do road work, I think it would have crushed her. Right. It would have been hard for audiences in Dothan, Alabama. Right. Or Wichita, Kansas.

Right. Or even Seattle in those days, would you would say was progressive back then no but you still have a hard time you had to go to giggles and deal with terry i taped two records at that shit hole but how do you feel about giggles well no the weird thing was is i knew that i'd have a space it's like i need a club and that was a beat up you know you know fine comedy club in a way had low ceilings you know it you know it was dirty and i ended up doing two records there only because i knew that if i gave him three weeks notice and i said i need to tape a record he'd fill the room well he barely i didn't like this i don't think it was

filled on either of my records to be honest with you why do they tape the big specials in theaters i didn't i did my special in a club because i thought that's the way you should see comedy it feels more intimate well it's what it's the way it's supposed to be it's doing comedy for big theater you know you know pros can do it i can do it but it's not what i like to do but uh all right so i am road comic so i am road com was was a chance to interview a bunch of people that i admire and hear their take on the road and see how it's changed see what's still the same it's not it's it's it's the grunt work yeah that i look at it's not louis ck selling out theaters or dave chappelle selling out radio city music hall or even like todd berry who i love who has found his audience and i heard

him on your show talking about finding those 300 seaters and whatnot. What he's comfortable with. It's not even that level. It's like bars, road gigs, and examining the worth of that badge of honor. Does it exist? And Brian McKim and Tracy Skeener married. They're comedians. Yeah. And he said it best at the end of the movie, pick a city you want to live in, draw a hundred mile radius around that city and work at that until you get good yeah like pete holmes he says work in your town have a day job and do

comedy and i came at it differently i was like if you're a stand-up that's all you do yeah me too and i think now there's so many outlets for comedy and there's so many comedians that maybe it's better to have a life and do a gig or write and go and do stand-up until you're better i think that because of the way media has broken apart you know the possibility for finding your audience in whatever way possible is different and and i think the only liability to it if i'm to talk about it honestly and i don't know if you really talk about this you talked about very honest about in the movie is that you you know some it depends what you think a real comic is and what the job of a comic is and that you know it's very hard for me to sort of you know get away from you know

what the system was the system was it was a comedy club system you know you started doing open mics and then you committed your life to something then you were an opener and then you were a middle and then you know you got the, but never in your own town. That still exists. Yeah. That system is alive and in place. Right. But then all these other alternative systems exist.

Right. And there's a whole comedy nerd universe out there. Right. But the truth of the matter is, like, Pete Holmes is a great comic. Pete and that crew from Chicago, who, you know, like Kyle Kinane, Kumail. In the movie, both of those guys. Hannibal. You know, they all came up both doing alt rooms and doing some of the mainstream rooms, I think.

And, you know, someone like Hannibal, you know, is like, you know, he turned his back on a writing career to pursue, you know, being the stand-up that, you know, he wanted to be a stand-up and he's a great stand-up. But, so there's different outlets. great stand-up but so there's different outlets right w bell made his own audiences by saying if you bring a person of a different race to the show you get in free yeah so there's a lot of outlets very creative but when we started it was still the club system and you're talking about the system of comedy where it's like the club doesn't give a fuck about anything but selling drinks you know robert hawkins when he was in here but at best he says it's about selling drinks really and fried food right know, that's it. I mean, that's been, and you really realize that that's the truth.

You know, you can, you know, as a comic, you know, if you get to a certain point, you can do a door deal or you can do a bonus structure, but that, because I always used to get panicky, you know, like I did like the comedy works, like I never made money as a comic until the last few years. So I go do the comedy works in Denver on a door deal,

not a door deal but a bonus structure so so i gotta sell a certain number of tickets so it's either this guarantee of whatever that is or if i sell this amount of tickets then you get a percentage get a bump right not just a bump like a big bump and when they first like when the first time i did well there i sold out three or four shows and they gave me this check i'm like what the what and then like my first concern was but you guys did all right right like yeah you were worried about the club yeah because you want to go back and and of course they did all right they make in in vodka exactly see that's the other thing it's like they're making all their money on that you know so like you know and it took me until

recently to really realize that that it's like you're not gonna pay you money they don't have you know if you've made this deal with them. Well, I was at the improv in Miami shooting and interviewing people like Josh Blue and Nikki Glaser was staying in a condo in Florida. And we filmed her there for the first documentary. And I remember the manager, we were setting up and then the manager had a meeting with the waitstaff. All very nice people, all love comedy. Right. But they were just talking about, we got to push the drinks sure to get that before last call see if they want more round we have a bachelorette party let's seat them in the back push the appetizers we've got a new zucchini

ring we want to yeah it was all about food and drinks it's a restaurant business bar and restaurant business yeah it's a nightclub business what it is. Well, how many comedy clubs back in the day kept the disco ball as a reminder of an era that had come and gone? Maybe comedy won't last. I wish it was that conscious. Oh, is that how you saw it? I just thought there was like, hmm. I thought it was like, well, maybe we can rent this place out. You know, it's like, yeah, those are usually one-nighters.

But, yeah, it was a whole different system. But, you know, comedy is very healthy. And I think it would be interesting for people to watch watch this movie because like despite whatever we may think you know a lot of people aren't aware of the nuts and bolts of what uh you know comedians go through or what even it used to be like like if you're a person of our age and you used to go to your local comedy club you know you still don't realize just you know i think the the mystique of it is like yeah this guy's on television occasionally and uh and he's just he's coming to do a show but you know a lot of people don't really realize just you know the hell we went through well they the the cup the two things

that come to mind like judah friedlinder you maria uh jim norton talk about the merch yeah and and selling the merch and doing the morning shows well that's what made the difference in charlotte i think i did a bunch of local media people come out oh yeah because they don't know you and now some people know me from the show but like there's still a bunch of people that if they're driving to work or they're driving back from work and the comedy interview comes on their radio show they're like what am i doing tonight let's go see let's go see the guy sounded funny well the other aspect in i am road comic uh on screen i keep a tally of the expenses yeah and i was supposed to drive up there and do a couple of one-nighters but i called two weeks before and the guy or he's like oh i never heard

from you i booked someone else so i had to fly so i'm already in the hole t-shirts that don barnhart is like they'll pay like 20 bucks i've given away for five bucks you can have three but you know i lost so much fucking money the rental car and then you know we eat the free breakfast yeah take food home for the free lunch yogurt and fruit sure eat at the club at night oh yeah that's a rogue comic man it's like we spent zero on food well yeah because like you want that like when they put you up in a hotel that doesn't have that shit you're like why they're like this is a nicer hotel i'm like i don't need a nice hotel i need a place where i get coffee all day and they have a breakfast till 10 and i could fucking go down there it's the only way to survive give me a courtyard marriott over anything's fancy like

doug benson i really think he has it figured out he does shows at 420. He books himself where a band is playing or a roller coaster he wants to ride. And he puts out a lot of product. I mean, I'm amazed at how many episodes you put out per week and write a TV show and still do the road. Yeah. And Doug is putting out, he has like seven or eight podcasts and video shows. He's very lucid, by the way. I mean, the weed is- It's amazing.

It's amazing. It's amazing. The last time I smoked was after some screening where Doug was there. And when someone hands you a joint and you just take it because when you see that person, I know you don't smoke. And I quit smoking. I eat it every now and then. But when you're in this certain crowd, you go in that mindset and they hand you the joint, you don't think right and you just take it and one hit like i had to go in the corner and sit and pretend to text yeah it's to keep your shit together i can't do it i can't function but he i've seen him smoke and then riff on stage and he's so quick he's so quick-witted

yeah but i love how he has structured his road work around like you you go to a live podcast like i think that's how comedy has expanded well i i'm excited about the movie i'm excited that a minute and i'm so i'm so thankful you're in it this is a wonderful wonderful stories wonderful comments about your fans you know bringing you art bringing you baked goods you know things you've touched on in the show. To put it in the context, when you watch a documentary and you see a clip out of context, for me it's kind of weird. Even a trailer, you get a glimpse of it.

In the context of the movie, your point of view towards merch versus Judah Friedlander or Jim Norton, they're all, everybody has a different take on it. I think there's an audience now, as I saying before you know of people that you know grew up watching comedy and now like there's a new generation of comedy people that are very enthusiastic to to really get a

sense of of the job and and you know from all different angles of of standard performers is uh you know it's it's it's it's compelling Alonzo Bowden gives some great advice to young comics. Oh, good. Well, there you go. The stuff you would love, like, if you're going to pick up a woman, you can't leave the club. Mm-hmm. And if you go across the street, yeah, your name's on the marquee, but it's coming down

at 1130. So you better, like, if that's your in, you better use it quick. Well, that's that great joke. Did anyone tell that joke in the movie? Which joke? The comedian's in town doing the weekend, and it's Saturday, and he's at the mall. You know that joke? No.

That's great. He's at the mall on Saturday, and a woman comes up and goes, we saw your show last night. You're great. I'd really like to hang out with you, maybe have sex or something. Saw your show last night in You're great. I'd really like to hang out with you. Maybe, you know, have sex or something. Saw your show last night in the comic. Really? The first show or the second show?

Yeah, right. That's funny. That's a wrap. All right. So, all right. So, I am roadcomic.com. It's on Hulu. It's on Hulu.

I expect it'll be other places, too. But Hulu. Hulu. There are good people over at Hulu. No, definitely. They have taste. And, well, congratulations. I'm glad things are leveling off and you're working and eventually all the bad things will be behind you.

Sure. Just keep chipping away at it. Thanks, man. You know what? Thanks for having me. I really appreciate your support and for having me. Yeah, absolutely. Good to talk to you.

And retweeting. Yeah, yeah. So there you go. I would pick that up. Go ahead. Grab it grab it i am road comic i guess i should watch it i do i should take a look at myself in that thing all right so now we're going to talk to uh to jay baker you know if i could fill my hole with the god if i could fill my hole with some spiritual foundation if i could be grounded you You know, I don't know about spirituality, but I do understand it. To me, it's like, hey, how can I be okay? Can I make something

out in the world or believe something or put some things together that don't have any explanation and kind of lean on them a bit to get a little peace of mind of mind can i do that can i breathe deep can i pick a star can i can i just turn it over to the universe and my faith and that'll keep working for the most part the fact is i i understand how it works in people's lives and it's been working in people's lives since the beginning of people uh you know some of it more defined than others some of it more insidious than others some of it more dangerous than others some of that more dogmatic and organized and forced upon by threat of death than others so the uh the opportunity to talk to somebody that came from the world of fairly corrupt organized religion i would say thoroughly corrupt organized religion but there

is mom and dad so you know this kid's struggle is deeper than the one I could understand, having not been really brought up with any religion whatsoever. We both struggle with some addictions, but all in all, I felt like this was a completely compelling conversation, and I think you'll enjoy it. All right? All right. I'm going to talk to Jay Baker now.

I am impressed with your journey, my friend. Now, do you consider yourself a man of the cloth? How does that work? Are you a minister? I am, but more of a theologian but i mean do you do you need a license to minister we need a license to marry people so i have a license but you can if anybody wants to they can they can call themselves a minister yeah pretty much it's really they say to marry and bury you get a license to marry and bury but i've never had to sign anything to bury anyone i think you're supposed to do it at a certain place you know i think if you're out

if you're out burying people behind people's backs and oh yeah and ditches and stuff as long as you're burying in the right place i think it's probably something you can get away with all right so just out of curiosity so like today we had some we had some trouble yes uh your guy was supposed to pick you up in torrance and he showed up here to pick you up and i guess he thought maybe to take you to torrance but whatever the fact is uh you know you run in about an hour late and i'm losing my fucking mind you know yeah i'm i'm i'm not i was losing my mind as well like i was beyond i'm angry i mean i almost feel like tears were about to come to my eyes really yeah yeah i was i was i was beyond i'm angry i mean i almost feel like tears were about to come to my eyes really yeah yeah i was i was i was really freaking the freaking the hell out so as as somebody of

faith how did you comfort yourself well my faith is a little bit more complicated than no i know i know but still there must be some practical so so just in the sense of of somebody who you know who even you know we'll get into to exactly what you're doing but i like i'm asking for as a personal i'm personally curious you know how you know what do you do in that moment where things are completely out of your control and you're full of uh rage and anxiety well i'm sober so i halt and i try to not worry about it i just got 18 years the other day. Congratulations. So you do this sort of do the next right thing, stay in the present one second at a time.

I have no control over this. I try that quite a bit. Yeah. But I was like, of course this happened. This course, this happened because this is my life and nothing can work out. What? Well, I'm just never excited about doing interviews and this one was really i was excited about and it's just the point point where you're

like oh we were we were shit we were so close jay we really i mean like because i had made plans and like it was one of those moments where it's sort of like what an hour late i gotta be in my therapist at three and i gotta go to a you know i got a thing and i'm like and i know you came out here to do it i'm like fuck and i'm like i'm gonna i'm gonna have to make an executive decision he if he can't make it by one that's it oh man that would have been devastated i yeah i would have been devastated i would probably call my wife crying and being like my life's over no come on yeah no i mean this has been a big deal you're you're you're you're inspiration to me and what i do and i think um in what sense and then what sense is that you're

very transparent and very honest uh about your mistakes and you're not just like oh i make mistakes but i mean you talk about your marriages and you your trans transparency is very important to me. And you tell stories that are about yourself that aren't, aren't spit shined, not comfortable. Yeah. Not comfortable. And I think that's extremely important. And,

you know, I always say that, you know, comedians and pastors are close, except comedians are honest. I like that one. Well, I mean, I cannot, it's really hard for me to fathom, you know, knowing, you know, even dating a celebrity's child. Yeah.

That the sort of baggage that comes with living in the shadow of charismatic characters, charismatic public figures. Yeah. You know, but, you know, Tammy Faye is your mother. Tammy Faye Baker is your mother. Jim Baker is your father. Yes. You know, and I was young, so, you know, when the shit went down for them was the late 80s, right?

So I wasn't that young. It was like 87, yeah. So 87, you know, I was already in college but i mean everybody knew who your parents were yeah and there was sort of like a sequence i remember in the 80s of of high profile ministers you know taking that you know going down yeah it was like a yeah domino but this was you know this was uh you know to grow up in in that in in the in the world of evangelical entrepreneurship yeah let alone just the the the past you know uh uh the ministry yeah that the the business model was what it was yeah and now how old were you because i remember

they used to you know track you out on that show. Yeah, yeah. What was the show called again? It was Praise the Lord, the PTL, they kept changing the names, and PTL Club and then the Jim and Tammy Show. And you were how old when you were being, how old are you now?

I'm 38 now. So you were a kid. Yeah, I was a, yeah, small, small kid. I was 11 years old when everything fell apart. So previous to that, do you remember your feelings about your parents and about what their mission was? Yeah, my dad worked all the time. He never stopped working. I didn't see him that often because he was constantly building buildings. But did you see it as the Lord's work?

Well, because I mean, I think that generation had the idea of like the American dream. So, and especially like Assemblies of God people. So it was like, oh, you know, we've got to be like Walt Disney or whatever. And so we've got to have the American dream with Jesus. So I just kind of saw it as that type of thing, you know, as like this kind of. Well, they were intertwined. Yeah. That part of the mission was building out the empire.

Yeah. And it probably shouldn't have been part of the mission. But who built that model? It's been around for a while. I guess Billy Graham and Pat Robertson, Oral Roberts. I mean, this was the tradition of taking the ministry to that level, to an empire, had been established. Yeah, I mean, well, my dad had actually started the 700 Club, and Pat just owned the network. Is that true?

The network, yeah. And so my dad basically, all of a sudden, Pat started wanting to host my dad's show, because my dad wanted to do kind of like a Johnny Carson type show, you know? He had that in him yeah i mean so he loved that stuff you know and so um and when it became popular uh-huh uh pat decided to start hosting it because pat was just the network owner so pat wasn't a minister no no he just saw his kids being successful because they wanted my dad. My parents started as children's ministers and doing puppets and stuff. So they wanted my dad to do the puppet show. And my dad said, yeah, sure, we'll do it for you guys.

And it was in Virginia. And he said, but I want to do a late night talk show. With a Christian angle. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. To talk to people about the Lord. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, to talk to people about the Lord. Yeah.

I mean, my parents weren't like the real super religious conservatives that you would see. Well, they seemed a little, they seemed like they were having a little more fun. They were having a little bit more fun than everybody else. Yeah. Unfortunately, they fell first and everybody's hatred towards the other guys just got to be able to be more focused on us. So who was your father's mentor in this, though? I mean, you know, if it wasn't, ultimately it wasn't Pat.

I mean, you know. No, I mean, my dad had worked with different ministers and stuff over the years, but I just, he had a vision, you know. It's like he just. He almost pulled it off. Yeah, I mean, he just wanted to do something that was big. He wanted to, you know, he grew grew up going to these crappy little retreats where it was like five cabins, and, oh, we're going to talk about Jesus. And he was like, that sucks.

Why don't we create a place that's way better than that? And he did, but then he had to feed a monster, and that's when the compromising started coming in. When you have to raise a million dollars every two days, you know, things start to slip a little bit. Yeah. Well, I mean, did you feel like early on, you know, in terms of the values you were brought up with, did you feel that your father's faith was true? Yeah. Both of my parents' faith was very true and very sincere. But they had been raised in a type of religion that said you had to be perfect. And as we know, no one is perfect. So you have to hide things. And then when you hide things, they fester and become darker and stranger. But no, my parents were all, it was funny because I grew up thinking God hated

me, but not because of my parents. It was because the people that my parents hired to teach the children's church and to run the schools and things like that. But my mom and dad both always seemed to have love as a trump card. And so honestly, I always blame, like when I talked to my dad, I'm like, dad, you know, the fact I'm the way I am, I blame you. You know, you guys told me to love people and that's what I'm trying to do, you know? Uh-huh. So. You say, you tell him that you blame him.

Yeah, I blame him for taking me down this road. Well, you know, because I'm a lot more radical than my dad, you know, and I'm a gay affirming and I do a lot with gay rights work and. more radical than my dad you know and i'm a gay affirming and i do a lot with gay rights work and um but but let's like but let's go back to when you you know that you know i have to assume what was the first legal issue what what was the first the beginning of the beginning was well what happened was is jerry falwell came to my father and, we have information that you had an affair with this woman named Jessica Hahn. And it's about to come out and it's going to be released by Jimmy Swaggart. Now, if you go ahead and resign and turn your church over to us, we'll restore you and heal you and do all this stuff. Well, they got the church and they didn't do any of that stuff.

It's kind of like a corporate takeover in a way. And I mean, I remember being a kid because we were in Palm Springs when all this stuff. Well, they got the church and they didn't do any of that stuff. It was kind of like a corporate takeover in a way. And I mean, I remember being a kid because we were in Palm Springs when all this happened and all these guys in dark suits coming in. Falwell's people. So like the lawyer for the Hustlers guy. Yeah. Yeah, that guy was there.

I mean, they were all like- Larry Flint's lawyer. Yeah, I mean, they were all there and it was like, you know, asking like, oh, and we need you to have your board of directors step down and all this stuff. So they weren't going to stop the story. They gave us the idea that they were going to, the story was coming out either way, but they were going to fix it by doing like this whole thing of restoring my father. Like, you know, he's repentant we're

going to help they were going to create a theater of uh yeah of uh contrition yeah a shame like they the setup was is like you won't you you're just going to lose your ownership of your business yeah we're going to keep you in the business by by giving you your salvation publicly right yeah i mean they were going to like you're going to have to in the business by giving you your salvation publicly. Right, yeah. I mean, they were going to like, you're going to have to go through this and this and put them through some sort of counseling and all that stuff.

Huh. You know. Swagger was involved? Well, we found out later Swagger wasn't as involved as we thought he was. That was them just, you know, saying, Swagger, it's going to get you and if you don't let us help you.

Because Swagger went down later? Yeah, Swagger went down probably about eight months later. Honestly, I remember the phone call my father got one night of a preacher saying, I'm taking down Swaggart. Because this preacher had hired photographers. And my dad said, listen, this is the worst thing you can do right now. I mean, the church has just fallen apart. This is after your dad went down. Yeah. And so my dad was like, I think you should, this is the worst thing you can do right now. I mean, the church is just falling apart. This is after your dad went down.

Yeah. And so my dad was like, I think you should rethink this. Yeah. And a guy said, no, it's too late. And I mean, literally the next day. I mean, because I was just, I was playing with my GI Joes on the ground, listening to this conversation. Yeah. And then the next day it happened.

Now, you know, it was interesting because I knew Kennison. And, you know, and he did whatever he did with Jessica Hahn later. But the weird thing about Kennison is Kennison, his original agenda was to be your father. No, I know. He toured across the country preaching so he could become a comedian. He wanted the empire, but he didn't have the spiritual fortitude to stay in line with Jesus. Yeah. So that, and he realized that.

So he chose the other path. It kind of seemed like he always had a kind of a chip on his shoulder about my dad. Definitely. Well, I think that he had a chip on his shoulder about what your dad represented. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it was because he comes from that. Yeah.

Yeah. You know. Yeah, yeah. And I think it was because he comes from that. Yeah. Now, when this went down, obviously the business went under. It was taken away. So your dad entered financial problems. Did the marriage survive any of this? For a few years. I mean, you have to remember the church owned our house,

which it was, they called it the parsonage. And I went to the school at the church. So my, everything was gone. So like we lost the church, we lost the house, we lost everything.

We had to just go. So Falwell cut you guys loose entirely. Done. Yeah. Without any acting on his word at all? Not at all. Not at all.

Not one thing. So your dad signed it? Matter of fact, he came out. He asked us, he goes, listen, I want to give you guys this, this, and this. Just put it down on paper for me. Dad did it. Jerry Falwell got it and then read it as a list of demands that my dad had sent him. I mean, it was just the weirdest, bizarre, like just games these guys were playing with each other.

They crushed him. Yeah, it was total politics. And they knew it all along. Yeah. They were like, you know, we just picked up a hell of a lot of valuable real estate and we threw Baker under the bus, fuck him. Well, and yeah, and it was weird because, you know,

it's like, my dad should have seen this in the first place. It's like Southern Baptists and Assemblies of God were never groups that got together. My dad was Assemblies of God and he was Southern Baptist, you know. It was like, there's something fishy. But he was so afraid about the news coming out about Jessica Hahn. You know, and nothing like that had really happened in a big church. Was that a setup? Yeah, a friend of his introduced him to Jessica Hahn.

My mom had left my dad, said, I'm not in love with you anymore. And my dad went to Florida. So they were separated. Yeah, they were separated. And my dad, this guy named John Wesley, said, oh, you've got to meet this girl. And that was, and it seems like, like i mean i don't know if it was like a conspiracy theory like it was like we're gonna do this and then years down the road we're gonna get him you know right right okay so oh so was it set up in that like someone introduced

yeah well and that guy liked to have things on people he was notorious for having the guy that the guy who did i mean later my dad would find out that the guy was going to like massage parlors and telling people his name was jim, you know, that kind of thing. Oh, my God. So, so what now? I have to assume that the sort of, you know, the vortex of everything being taken away. And, you know, your father, you know, out of all of them seem like a pretty sensitive guy. Oddly.

Yeah. guy oddly yeah that like you know when i when i think back on the intensity of all of them he seemed to have you know he was not a fire and brimstone guy you know he was uh you know this sort of soft-spoken yeah almost mr rogersy kind of guy yeah yeah you know and he would want to have like he'd have like celebrities and like thinking about mickey rooney just dying like mickey rooney would be on his show all the time uh you know, and like Gavin McLeod, the love boat guy, you know, and like the facts of life. He liked celebrities. Yeah, they would come on and chat and talk.

And, you know, I mean, my mom did a show on penile implants. My mom had... She was a character. Yeah, she had someone, she had a man with AIDS when Ronald Reagan hadn't even mentioned AIDS yet. So my parents just did stuff. And I don't think people liked it when you just do stuff you're not supposed to. And they just did it as like, oh, well, this just makes sense.

Yeah, these are just people. And that's where I got that whole concept of like, you're supposed to love people. From your mother. Yeah, and my dad it's like love is a trump card you know my dad had not wanted my mom to interview these people he would have said no so yeah so i always found that really interesting well what did it do to you as a person that you know i mean where did you get dark uh right was that happened i i knew i mean it just it was everything there was just a heaviness

over it and your parents were yeah i mean he was i mean i had to have security guards because we were constantly being threatened to have our be kidnapped you know and stuff like this so i had to have a bodyguard before everything went down or yeah before everything went down now of course all that disappeared and of course my father my bodyguard tommy was actually more of a dad to me than my own father because my father was working all the time. And what kind of guy was Tommy? Tommy was this just really nice, awesome guy. He was like a coach, you know, and I would have no athletic ability, but he taught me how to throw a spiral football, you know, and, uh, you know, when he would drop me off, he'd give me a hug. I mean, he ended up becoming a police officer.

And, you know, when he would drop me off, he'd give me a hug. I mean, he ended up becoming a police officer. He was my pal, you know, but he also didn't take any crap from me. Like a lot of people were scared of the breaker's kid. You know, he wasn't. He would like give me Charlie horses and stuff like that. Was there a cult vibe? You know, there's some people who followed my folks that seemed like they were kind of a cultish thing but i didn't really feel like there

was a major cult vibe because my parents seemed to there were people who probably felt that way but i don't ever think my dad and mom saw it that way they weren't cultivating no and they weren't like you need to do this or you know they didn't own apartment buildings and whatnot or they did when they did and people could live there but it was usually for elderly folks to live there, too. It wasn't like, you know, you can never leave or anything like that. My dad was just an entrepreneur who happened to love Jesus, and I think that was the problem, you know? It's like he wanted to, you know, have his cake and eat it, too, in a way. He's like, I want to be a preacher and build Disneyland.

Right. Well, I want, like, we can get back to this, but, you know, you brought up that they were brought up in a Christianity that was based on perfectionism, and that's a misunderstanding, isn't it? Yes, it is a great misunderstanding. Well, let's get to that in a minute. Did you, now, as a child, and when all this went down when you were 11, 12 years old, or did you pray? Did you have Jesus in your life and in your heart? I prayed a lot when I was a little kid, but I'd always just pray for my parents and my sister. But you believed in Jesus?

Yeah. So did you find that when this went down, I imagine you're looking at a lot of chaos. There's probably fighting between your parents. Your father's a broken man. Did your faith diminish? Did you watch their faith diminish? I didn't even think about my

faith at the time it was my family was wanted to see my family survive my sister ran away my dad was like pretty much catatonic for a few days and and in like the field position on a couch um so i was just scared yeah the kid i mean you know you have one sister i have one sister she around yeah she'd make it out she all right she barely made it out but she made it out she had she had a real rough time yeah real rough go at it and but i love her more than anything and it's like that one person who can understand you know you're the only two You're not going to run into somebody that's like, interesting, maybe you can relate to my parents. I know, but I watched one of your shows where your dad makes vitamins. Mm-hmm.

And my dad's made vitamins, and I was like, damn, I should have brought some of my dad's vitamins. So he's still at it? Well, yeah, he's in Branson, Missouri and doing his thing. Does he have a congregation? He doesn't have a congregation he just does his tv show and you know music and all that stuff and people we don't we don't me and him don't see eye to eye on almost anything but we just try to be father and son and that's can that's difficult so what was your journey then once you when did you sort of go rogue uh i guess in around 13, 14, well, actually I started drinking about 11. Bartles and James, wine coolers.

Thanking them for their support. Yeah. And it just went on. In high school, I wanted to be popular. I mean, it was one of those things where I wanted to be with a popular crowd and they were all drinking and partying and I drank and partied and smoked weed and tried to have a fun time. Was there a stigma on you? Yeah, I mean, I did some fighting.

Yeah. But there was also a lot of, like, the cool kids got, like, this guy's somebody's kid. Let's party, you know? Yeah, yeah. Fighting, defending your family? Yeah. I mean, I remember one time in particular particular i was in class and this i was defending some girl and then this guy who kind of shut down you know and then this guy looked at me who i'd

shut down and said uh whispered and goes how does your dad like getting in the ass in prison you know and he was about four four chairs for me yeah so i stood up and just started throwing chairs boom boom boom uh-. And went to hit him. Unfortunately, my Florida history teacher got in front of him before I hit him, and I barely missed her. So, you know, that was five school days in suspension. He got to go out of school.

I was like, this is not fair. That was in Florida? Yeah, and I was in a Christian school before then, and they would, you know, they treated me horribly. The Christian schools were actually more worse than the public schools. What I, the story I just told you was in public school, but even before that, they put me in this, this Christian school and they were just, it was just awful. When your father was in prison? Yeah. Who was taking care of you? Your mom? My mom. Yeah. And then my mom ended up divorcing my dad. While he was in prison? Yeah, and got married.

And I wanted to move in with a family friend because I didn't want to leave Florida at the time. That's something you'll never say again. You are correct. Now, did you get along with the new guy or what? He was okay. Yeah. So, all right, so you're drinking?

Drinking. You're stuck in Florida. Did you actually move in with family friends or did you? Yeah, yeah, all right, so you're drinking? Drinking. You're stuck in Florida. Did you actually move in with family friends, or did you? Yeah, yeah, I lived with a family friend. It's funny, I got a job at this Christian television station doing camera work. Really? Yeah, and I was, like, super didn't care. So I'd always wear, like, my Clinton Gore T-shirt.

Right. And it would just drive them insane. And I had one of those shirts that was, like, you know, like 90s shirts. It was like, kill your TV, you know? And they were all they're like he's such a problem so you're all punk rocking it yeah acting out acting out and they're like sitting there telling me that you know bill clinton's the antichrist and you know i'm sitting there with my clinton gore why did you end up working there did you did what did your family name uh help you in that yeah well i dropped out of school and i

needed something to do in high school job dropped out of high school and uh i went back and got my ged later um but i worked there i needed a job i actually ended up saving enough money to get uh some turntables techniques and i was gonna dj a little while uh-huh that was kind of fun that didn't work out very well did you ever get in a regular band uh yeah as in a social distortion cover band oh yeah you really so this was it's interesting because what it seemed like it that in in in the in the aftermath of of your your parents you know you know public shaming and and financial bankruptcy and uh criminal you know, public shaming and financial bankruptcy and criminal issues, judicial issues that you were able to sort of have this free reign rebellion that any kid, you know, sort of has. But yours was sort of public and it was a little more loaded than just a regular kid joining a

band or lashing out or having a few cocktails. mean because you represented uh you know this this this you know public corruption of christianity yeah and you know and it would have been a lot easier had i not loved my parents yeah but that was the problem i loved them and i knew him as my mom and dad and that was it would have been a lot easier if i was like yeah this is a bunch of bullshit you know but and i really cared about my parents. Now, during this time where you were DJing and drinking, was Jesus part of your life? Not really.

I mean, it was kind of the back of my mind. Kind of like, one day maybe, if I'm on, you know. Oh, really? You know, it was one of those things where it just wasn't there. So it's interesting in light of who they were that, you know, you really saw it as more of a business. Yeah. I mean, I really believe they genuinely believed it. And there was that essence that I thought was real, but the business part of it, I just didn't, it wasn't there, you know?

I mean, also it was this kind of thing where I felt like my parents always felt like they needed to get it back. And so you kind of felt like you got caught up living in this constant, like, need to go back to the glory days. Or we've got to get this place back. Or we'll never be who we truly are, you know. And that's not, that's no way to live. Did you visit your dad in prison? Oh, yeah. How long was he there? I was actually the one who told him my mom was leaving him.

It was awful. Oh, my God. Yeah. How long was he in prison oh yeah how long was he i was actually the one who told him my mom was leaving him it was awful oh my god yeah how long was he in prison he was in prison for about five years wow so like 13 40 i can't imagine that it'd be on the other side of that glass like that is that the way it was or was it tables or they had tables it was a medical facility it was it was they had the all the gates yeah you know and all the barbed wire all this stuff it wasn't the golf course right right right and I think they had the medical him at the medical facility because they were afraid he was gonna get stabbed or shanked or something like that and they wanted to try to protect him as much as they could and that were they afraid

that he would take his own life no I think they're afraid someone's gonna take his life yeah and you know he had problems he had issues you know he had he went through some shit yeah yeah and it's my father became an unrealistic hero in a way for me though because he was in prison yeah and so he didn't have to do any of the discipline or anything like that that was mom's my mom was the one putting the lock on the window so i wouldn't sneak out. My dad was the guy I got to see a few hours every few months. So it was like, my dad is awesome.

And it was so hard to focus in school and stuff because I was like, I just want my dad to come home. And when he got out of prison, the expectations were gone and we didn't get along very well. you know, the expectations were gone and we didn't get along very well. Now your mother, like, I imagine that the journey with your mother was a little tricky because she came, became such a caricature of herself publicly. It was weird though. You know, like people would have those, I ran into Tammy Faye mall on the mall t-shirts, which was the splattered makeup stuff. And she would sign them and she embraced it, man. You know, I always told her, I'm like, Mom, I think you're so beautiful without makeup. But, you know, she had her self-esteem was really low, so she did that. But at the same time, she's like, I don't care what these people say.

Everybody's telling me to take my makeup off. Everybody's telling me to tone down. Yeah. And I'm not going to do it. Like most women, when they did Christian stuff, they would take their jewelry off before they went on. Right. My mom kept their jewelry on yeah you know she just you know it's like almost in some way it was she was somewhat naive but the the beautiful part of that was that she actually

cared about people yeah i think that vulnerability is is what made her compelling yeah it also made her a target yeah no totally yeah that's the weird thing about vulnerability. And the crying, you know, I mean, one, she did feel deeply, but two, she had also dealt with addictions to like Ativan and Valium and things like that. Oh, really? If you've taken any of that, you know, you can get the weepies. It makes you a little heavy hearted. Yeah, it does. Very sensitive. Yeah. What was your drug of choice ultimately? Well, I started doing LSD. I just loved LSD. I just thought it was great.

I went to the first Lollapalooza. I was tripping like crazy. And this is when you could still get some pretty good LSD. Yeah. And smoking weed and all this stuff. But then I started getting flashbacks around like 16 or 17. I started getting these panic attacks that felt, you know, when everything looks too real.

Yeah. You know, all of a sudden it was like the trees are too green. What's happening? I'm freaking out. And people's faces look sort of glossy. Yeah. Like you see their pores. And that freaked me out.

So I was like, oh, my God, what am I going to do? And I had this, my dad had this old psychiatrist friend who gave me Thorazine. Wow. Obviously, the guy hadn't been to an updating psychiatry class in quite a while. Who was the Thorazine for? For me. Oh, my God. For the flashbacks, of course.

They were awful. I was like. So you went to your dad and you said, I'm strung out on LSD. Yeah, I'm like, Dad, I'm going crazy. If I have to have a piece of my brain taken out, I mean, I'm freaking out all the time. And so you weren't high and you were getting yeah yeah yeah so they put me on the thorazine to try to help and that was awful that's old school that must have knocked you out oh yeah it was awful so i said screw that and i was like jack daniels uh-huh i can drink yeah and drinking works and it doesn't give me flashbacks.

As a matter of fact, if I start to get one, I have a drink. Now, I was experiencing time travel quite a bit with my drinking. David Tell-style time travel? Yes. Yeah, blackout time travel? Yeah, you know, throw up on your shoes, and you don't know where you are. You know, girls throw up. Where were you living?

I was living in Orlando at the time. But your father wanted to help you. Yeah, I did. That's something. I mean, he was trying to help me from prison, which is quite hard. So he felt bad. Yeah. I think he was worried about me.

And your mother? My mother was worried about me, too. She tried to help you? Yeah. I remember I came home drunk one night, and she's like, have you been drinking? Yeah. And I was like, I knew I was busted. I was like, yeah.

And she's like, I'm going to pray to God that the next time you drink, you get so sick that you'll never want to drink again. It's so odd to me. It's so like amazing that like, you know, you're going home and having this moment with Tammy Faye Baker. Oh, I mean, I sat down with my mom and I lost my virginity because I got crabs the first time I had sex. What did she say to that?

Well, I tried to, I told her that I got them from borrowing somebody's shorts. Sure. And then one day I came home and she's like, Jamie Charles, because that's my full name. And I was like, yeah. She's like, I need to talk to you. I was like, oh, what? And I'm like going through the roller decks in my head of everything I've done wrong. And I sit down and she goes, yeah, I talked to a doctor about the crabs.

Yeah. You didn't get those from sharing somebody's shorts. And so she had like the condom talk with me. And so she's like, I prefer you don't have sex. But if you are going to have sex, you need to use condoms. Uh-huh. You know, so. It's surreal and weird, you know.

I mean, I look back at it now. You know, if I try to see it through your eyes, it must really seem wild. No, you know, i when i think back on her i actually had i don't know if i still have if i had a copy of her her album okay her record album i don't know if i still have it um but i you know i always sense there in both your parents oddly because i have nothing but contempt for foul well or swaggered because you know they they they were clearly showmen but you know your your parents always seem so fragile to me yeah we're a fragile group man it's not just

them yeah I'm a pretty fragile guy you know it's like there was a the vulnerability was not far from the surface you know yeah sometimes I'm uncomfortable on the freeway okay you know i mean i i you know i i suffer from panic attacks and you do all sorts of stuff and yeah i'm a neurotic and yeah yeah and uh that's why i say it's the first time i saw your thing and i saw you out there with these books yeah talking on a thing you're like i don't know if i'm prepared or not and i was like yeah i like this guy this is my guy i gotta he's got a tv show i gotta like this guy. This is my guy. He's got a TV show. I got to watch this guy.

He can barely keep it together. Yeah. So ultimately, what leads to your personal, you know, your turn towards, you know, recovery and personal mission? What led up to that? I started a church with some friends of mine. My dad sent me away to get sober, but he sent me to be a part of this church program. Yeah.

And I didn't last a week, but there was these other guys who were trying to start this punk rock church, and I was like, I'd much rather try to do that. Like the Stephen Baldwin thing? No, no, no, no. Okay. But had you ever thought about doing the

the ministry before i mean i thought about it i thought i joined the peace corps honestly i thought that might be you know yeah something more down my lines because i did want to help people for some reason right and um but my dad sent me away because i was when he got right out of prison i was drunk all the time partying you know never coming, never coming home, you know, and he's like, you got to do this. Did he see you as an extension of the embarrassment? I don't know if he saw me as an extension. No, I think he saw me as my son's life's falling apart. Right.

And I'm a good Christian man and I've got to do the right thing. He still, he had that. He still has that. Yeah. And so I was like, okay, he sent me away. To where? To Phoenix, Arizona. Mm-hmm.

To be a part of this thing called a master's commission, which is just basically a bunch of kids learning how to like witness to poor people and, you know, do like little schticks like rip phone books in half and then talk about Jesus, you know, really kind of weird, bizarre stuff. But it was mission stuff. Yeah. Yeah. And I didn't last a week. Yeah. Because I had a lot of rules yeah and i don't like rules and uh but there

are these guys who had come out of it who are starting this little punk rock thing called revolution and i was like hey i love that yeah what was the idea well the idea was is that we just we had shows and then someone got up and talked for 15 minutes what were the shows um punk rock shows all sorts of different bands okay yeah and we were doing that and it was pretty cool is that when you got the tattoos and the piercings and everything i got my first tattoos in yeah um you know i got my piercing stuff later but i only lasted there for a year because i felt there was the alcoholic was still alive in me. There was no like I hadn't gone through recovery. Right.

I was just a dry drunk for a year. And I had people around me telling me like, God's telling me this, that you're doing such thing. Or like my buddy would just be like, I'd come back from a trip and he'd be like, God spoke to my heart that you were drunk. You know, I'm like, really? I mean, obviously I was drunk when I was not here. You know, that's a given. Okay. And so that was kind of the thing.

You know, that was the, I just felt so guilty I left. Yeah. And so, and just started drinking. I went and got a job at the Gap and just decided to drink. Commit to drinking. Yes. Yeah. And then.

Denim expert. Yeah. Alcoholic. commit to drinking yes yeah and then in denim expert yeah alcoholic so there you are jay baker working at a gap where oh it was in atlanta georgia lost lost in the gap yeah and when did you meet your wife uh which one the first one i didn't meet my wife until uh well i got i was going to a psychiatrist at the time and he said i told me i was an alcoholic and i had a different picture in my mind without an alcoholic was sure so i got sober i tried to get sober in atlanta yeah i went to a steak and ale meeting like a dinner dinner meet i've never been to one since like we're having a meeting and we're eating it was weird and i picked up my chip and that was 18 years ago i met my wife a few

months uh you've not been to a meeting since or i haven't been to a meeting since no i haven't yeah yeah i haven't been to a steak and ale or a uh food meeting of some sort i don't know what that was lunchtime meeting um so you locked in with the sober thing yeah yeah i did that um and about probably about four or five months into my sobriety i met amanda yeah and uh she was really pretty but you know being newly sober i could not communicate with anyone because i'm extremely introverted. And so I drank to talk. You found that once the alcohol was taken away, your conversational skills were limited. Yeah, yeah. I remember at one point her saying, I don't think this is going to work out.

And I was like, why? And she's like, you don't ever say anything. And I was a chain smoker. And I remember she quit smoking because my smoking disgusted her because i she smoked too but she helped out yeah i helped her out just you know sometimes i have two cigarettes in my mouth and i don't even know it um yeah so that's how we uh she worked at this coffee shop and i really liked her and i just kind of kept showing up yeah how long that marriage last?

About seven years. Wow. It's hard when you lock in that first year, isn't it? Yeah. Because you're kind of using them to. Yeah. Yeah, I had that one. Yeah, and I think, you know, yeah, you know,

and then you see that maybe they have similar tendencies, you know, so it's, yeah. Did it end ugly? Yeah. Yeah. Sorry, buddy. It's okay. So now where does, you know, so it's, yeah. Did it end ugly? Yeah. Yeah. Sorry, buddy. It's okay. So now where does, all right, so now you've turned your back on this revolution idea. You're not a dry drunk anymore.

You got sober. You got married. And where does the evolution, how does Jesus come back into the picture? Well, I had a pastor buddy of mine who would always take me. He knew I liked to drink, and so he would just take me to the bars and make sure I got a ride home. And I was like, what is this all about? And he's like, man, you know, it's grace. It's God's love, all this stuff.

The drinking? Not the drinking, but the fact that he wasn't condemning me for drinking. And the fact that he didn't want me to die in a car accident. Right. And so he kind of was like, because I was like, dude, I just feel like God hates me. And he told me I was full of shit. Why did you feel like God hated you?

Because I couldn't do anything right, I felt. I felt like I can't get off booze. Assemblies of God is like your salvation is like trying to grasp sand. That's the perfectionism thing? Yeah. It's like, be perfect for God, which no one could do. It's unrealistic. But isn't that a misunderstanding of the idea of sin? Yeah, no, completely.

No, 100%. But at this time,'m you know 18 19 not and that's what planted in you yeah it planted into my head and and so one day i said you know i thought he was into this grace thing that helped him sleep at night you know what i mean like whatever helps you sleep at night buddy um and i said prove it to me i said prove to me somewhere in the bible that there's this type of thing where i god loves me if I'm a drunk or if I'm not. And he had me read the book of Galatians. And that book blew me away.

What did it say? It just said you're loved no matter who you are or what you've done. It said you're accepted. It's not about works. It's not about earning things. It's not about the law. And it's just stuff I'd never seen before. Because, you know, my parents didn't do, like, we didn't have Bible study at home.

You know what I mean? Like, my dad bought me, like, He-Man and Dungeons and Dragons. You know, that stuff didn't matter to them. You know? Really? Yeah, like, all my friends were like, we're not allowed to play with it. That's evil. You know, my parents were like, toys aren't evil.

That's ridiculous. This whole perfectionism thing is troubling troubling it's very troubling because nobody can be perfect and and the idea is that that god wants you to be perfect for him so everybody's lying to each other right and and and that's not the teaching of jesus no no and then you know the church also started you know started the don't ask don't tell you know i mean there's plenty of lgbtq folks working in the church um probably hating themselves hating themselves and and also just you know everybody was fine with them as long as they never said it out loud like even if everyone knew yeah like oh i have a roommate bob you know like oh bob and john are really awesome we love them you know but they never have to say anything we have to let them go well that was but yeah but that was

probably also the prison of like they knew that you you know, if they were on some level, if they were to do to be part of the church, that that church reinforced the shame. Yeah. So that becomes almost like a Stockholm syndrome. Yeah. Is that, you know, you're safe here as long as you don't really, you know, accept who you are and and you maintain that level of shame which must have been what hinged them to the religion to begin with yeah that's it's so fucking tricky no it's nasty so i just get interested and i start learning about the bible and and uh i'm probably 19 at the time 20 and i start to get hebrew and greek translation books and start to get into that and

i start to realize that oh all this horrible thing that people have been doing to others in the name of this book aren't actually in this book. Right. And it's not about the perfection or, you know, I don't know, works and all that crap. It was like there was this unconditional acceptance about it and it was blowing my mind you know and jesus seemed to be more upset with religious people all the time than he ever was with anybody else right religious people he would just drove him nuts he's like you know you guys are like whitewashed tombs or right a brood of vipers you know it's like so it was one of those kind of freeing things

that I wasn't reading it through like the American evangelical glasses anymore. And even as I've gotten older, I try to read the Bible through more of the glasses of what Christ says. So when I look at the Old Testament and I look at everything out, I try to see it through Christ.

So like in the Old Testament where they're like, God told us to strike these babies' heads onto rocks you know i go okay jesus said love your enemies so i'm gonna guess that that was those guys's best understanding at the time of what god was right you know so when did you start preaching i think it was 19 or 20 and i i remember my first sermon i wrote out all these notes and and they were awful. It was awful. Where did you do it? I did it in Atlanta at this youth group, and I swore to never do it ever again after I did it. In an organized situation like that?

Yeah, it was awful. Why? Not even an organized situation. It just was awful. Oh, you weren't going to preach anymore. Yeah, I bombed, okay? Yeah, you know. I'm sure you've never bombed, but, you know, that feeling is, yeah, okay, you know, you get up in there, and you there and you're just like oh my god this is the worst feeling i've ever had and i'm never ever

going to do this again did you tell your father when you decided to preach i don't remember you really don't remember i really don't remember no huh maybe i did i probably did i was but i'm sure i did that was a it's a that was all around like getting sober time. You know, my brain was just like. But didn't you find it interesting within yourself that you were going to now take up this challenge and this occupation that was what you grew up in? Yeah, but I didn't see it that way

because I felt like something new had been revealed to me. It's kind of like when Luther was, you know, walking down and the lightning stuff. Yeah. Reformation happened. I mean, I kind of felt that that's what was, you know, there's something new. But there was no sense of like my parents, as good as they were, were missing the point. Yeah. Now, okay, I do remember calling my dad.

Now that you say, I would call my dad at night and talk to him about grace and say, yeah, this is amazing. And he's like, I know it's there, but sometimes I feel it's too good to be true and all that stuff. Really? Because you've been raised to say that that's not right. That God doesn't love everybody. Yeah. I mean, God loves everybody, but we were free will, so people had to make their choice. That's assembly of God.

Yeah. I mean, better than the predestination thing where people are like these people were all made to suffer in hell and burn for eternity and these people are okay you know it's like free will is a little more like you know hands-on in terms of determining what god's will yeah you know and that's why you get a lot of people like let's go to the mall and talk to people about jesus and be really uncomfortable all right so okay so you're having these conversations, and there is an intellectual component of your dad actually discussing the thing that blew your mind, which is that if grace exists, then the ministry has to be for all.

Yeah. Without question. Yes. And he's like, it's a little tricky. Yeah. And was it contentious, or did you say, well, I'm going to go with it? No, it wasn't contentious. It did come a few years later when I decided that I was announcing that I was gay affirming.

Well, where did the congregation start? How did you build your reputation? I went to a lot of music festivals and i spoke at those events and people got to know me um and i started a little church i started revolution again i called it revolution in atlanta uh-huh and uh did you have a congregation yeah how many oh well i was in rolling stone i know and when i was in rolling was like, you know, we had like 200 people show up. Of course, then like five months later, it was like, there's 15 of us, you know? Yeah.

But, yeah, so, I mean, it was anywhere from 15 to 30, but it's crazy, you know, because I, you know, I buried kids. I, you know, I went through seeing a lot of horrible stuff. Like what? Just living through these kids' lives. You were primarily dealing with kids? Yeah, with teenagers and stuff. And going into court with them and all this stuff. And not much older than they were.

You know what I mean? And their parents are like, come into the court with us. Or come to the high school and talk. I feel uncomfortable in the principal's office just as much as anybody else right so it would the intention was a a ministry to young people yeah i mean my idea was my hope was is that the church would change and become a different thing it just happened to be young people were attracted to that and the fact that i was into punk rock and had tattoos and stuff like that you know you know people just used that as the shtick but initially you're just straight up, you know, driven by grace.

Yeah. And then you decided to politicize it on some level. Yeah, I guess so. Well, eventually, yeah. And when did you? With gay rights and stuff. But, I mean, I just felt like I was following in the footsteps of people like Martin Luther King. You know, you can't be silent anymore.

You have to speak up. And how was that received? Not well. By who? By almost everybody. Well, maybe the established church. The established church. No, there was a lot of churches that appreciated what I did.

But all my speaking engagements that I had that year all got canceled within literally like a day. For basically your speaking engagements based on youth ministry. Yeah, and I was also speaking to other churches. I didn't just speak to youth. Why were they asking you to speak? Because they like to hear my message about grace, and it challenged them. And it's funny because sometimes people would argue with me saying, oh, you're preaching too much grace.

You know, I would get in trouble for that. So I've always been used to getting in trouble for something. You know, as I've grown, I feel like I've become more interested in theology and philosophy and trying to focus the church as a whole. But I mean, I want people to feel safe. I want people, I mean, it's impossible to make people feel safe, especially in church, but I want people to have a less stressful life. You know, I would like to see people not suffering because of who they are.

Yeah. And I'd like to see the church stop being morons and so hateful and angry and tearing people's lives apart. That's what I would hope for. But as I read philosophy and theology, everything is changing. Right now, I just feel like I'm in the midst of a huge change. In terms of some of this stuff actually happening. Yeah, and my faith, my belief system. Do I believe in God you know and sometimes i don't and uh

i have a lot of questions and and i i have a theology that i found to be best i think john caputo said it best is it's a weak theology you know it's not a fundamentalist theology it's a weak theology that maybe sometimes i can't defend that's a theology that's like, hey, this is what Jesus did and this is what happened, perhaps. Yeah. You know? I mean, can't you separate the mythologizing of the life of Jesus from the message of Jesus?

Yeah. And that's what I'm doing. I'm just going further and further into that. So when you've been taught one way your whole life and you kind of start to grow and understand things in a different way, it can be a little rattling. Mm-hmm. And it might be a delicate subject, but I mean, when your mother was sick, you were there the whole time. Yeah.

And it took a while huh it was awful and what was her discussions during that period in terms of her faith well she was always faithful but one time i remember she got really upset and you know me and it was me and my sister and uh you know she's like i don't know why god's letting this happen and then you know everybody kind of got real raw and was like well you didn't go back to you know get your chemo like you should have and it was and it came a huge fight you know she was scared you know um it was tough i mean i she would stay up all night, like, re-situating her clothes one night by size and then the next by color because she was so scared and having such bad panic attacks. That was the only thing that could get her off of her, you know.

And, I mean, she was, you know, she looked like a skeleton. I mean, she was fading away. You know, I didn't see her body when she died because she was so much life to me, you know i didn't see her body when she died because she was so much life to me you know but around the same time my marriage was starting to fall apart and uh literally a week after my mom died that's when i found out my wife was done so big time yeah that's when it usually happens all at once yeah that kind of stuff i mean luckily i was kind of born and raised in the briar patch so i i can exist somewhat and when things are too good that's when i start to get nervous did she have any peace at the end

um i'm only asking that because these are religious people. No, I guess the answer for me is because I was working on my marriage, I didn't get to be with my mom much that last month of her life. So I don't know. And I don't see them as religious people. I see them as my parents. You know what I mean? Human beings. And when the rubber hits the road

you know it's it's different it's tough and yeah you have these questions and it's like who gives a shit you know where are you jesus if you're here that'd be great to see you but right now my mom's dead and i don't know what to do you know so now but you're starting you know you're starting a new church here right well actually I've been doing a church in Minneapolis. I just moved to Minnesota about a year ago. What brought you to Minnesota? My lovely new wife got a job at Blue Cross Blue Shield. Well, that's noble.

Yeah, and she's agnostic. She's not a believer. Really? Yeah. Uh-huh. She's super awesome, too. And she comes to my things, and when I talk, she's like, I have no idea what the hell you just said. You need to figure out a different way to say it.

Oh, really? So she's a good editor? No, she's great. Yeah. And you start a congregation up there? Yeah. I don't know how long it's going to last. I've been thinking about maybe doing a—the majority of our listeners listen online.

I've been thinking about maybe doing a – the majority of our listeners listen online. So I've been thinking about doing an online, just doing a sermon online every week, and then just meeting up with people wherever I'm at, on the road or in town and stuff like that. You're not adverse to doing ministry in bars and whatever? No, I do – yeah. The church I'm in right now is a bar. The church I've been in before was a bar. The church before that was in a bar. Is that sort of an honor to the pastor that taught you about grace?

I never thought of it that way, but probably in a kind of a beautiful way, yeah. And it's also common ground. Uh-huh. I don't know if you ever went to church before, but it's kind of creepy. You're walking in, and it's like their place, and everybody's dressed up, and you're like, oh, there's no neutral ground here. Heavy vibe, man. Yeah. And then sometimes it's scary organ music.

It's definitely designed to blow your mind. Yeah, and a lot of bad music. We worship God, and I'm like, God must really be pissed because the music we worship with really sucks. Yeah. Like, we worship God, and I'm like, God must really be pissed because the music we worship with really sucks. Yeah. So we don't even have music at our church just because I think it's a trigger for so many kids who grew up in that stuff. It's just because they hear this, oh, we love you, Jesus.

We want to be your boyfriend. And then, you know, the same people were beating them up and kicking them out of their homes if they were coming out or things like that. And your folks are from Minneapolis or your folks are from Wisconsin? Strangely, my mom is from International Falls, Minnesota, the highest you can go. My dad was from Michigan. And everybody always plays them as Southern preachers, which is really funny, like on Saturday Night Live. And they're, God wants you to. And I'm like, no, they're Northerners. If if you ate my mother's food you would know she was a northern bland

northern food do you do you feel a connection towards your mother in that state you know it's funny there is some times where she used to work at woolworth's and it's not there anymore but i know where it was uh-huh and And my psychiatrist's office is right there. So when I go down there every week, it's like I see that. And there is kind of that feeling of being where my mom was. My mom's very important to me. And her memory lives on with me really well. I keep pink elephants around because one time when I was a kid,

when she overdosed on medication, she thought there was a pink elephant in the closet. And I stood up and I said, I rebuke you in the name of Jesus, pink elephant. But after that, it kind of became a joke between us, you know, these little pink elephants. So, and I say that because it's just like my wife's like, you really are being connected to your mom lately. And I'm like, yeah, I really miss her. She was a good friend. I would have called her today.

Really? If you were freaking out? No, I would have called her today to tell her what I was doing. Yeah, yeah. Because I think she really would have been excited for me. Sorry. It's okay. I don't mean to get emotional.

That's all right. It's making me emotional. I'm a little raw myself. Yeah. You know, so yeah. i'm a little raw myself yeah uh you know this is yeah i mean i'm i'm excited you know this is this is i'm excited when things are happening you're getting along okay with your dad yeah yeah we had a really cool talk on his birthday on january 1st my sister was there and it was it was pretty cool we hadn't had that kind of conversation in a long time you know but we're awkward guy i mean we're two men and we like to know how to

relate to each other and we have a lot of the same quirks yeah you know what i mean and you're just and a different but different stuff that we think each other is crazy yeah you know yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah no you can't you it's hard to to to sort of tame the parts of them that are in you. Yeah. Well, it was great talking to you, Jay. You feel all right? I do, man. It was an honor to talk to you.

I really, I'm a fan and I'm really glad I got to do this. Now, you said that your sermons are available online or they're not? Yeah, they are available online at revolutionchurch.com. Okay. And I'm on Twitter and Facebook and all that stuff. And if anybody wants to help my failure book, it's called Faith and Doubt. It sold 600 copies.

Don't be so doubtful. I know you comedy lovers love good theology books. Well, best of luck to you, man. Thank you. That's it. That's the show. That was something. Good guy, that guy.

On the path. On his path. As we all are some more diligent than others, some more aware than others. Look, go to WTFpod.com and get that app, folks. A lot of people are just getting on board after some recent episodes, and I want to encourage you and them to get the free app and upgrade to the premium. The most recent

episodes, the most 50 recent, the last six months, I could probably frame it like that as well, are always free, but then they go behind a little paywall, and then you've got to get the premium app. So get that free app at where you get apps for the WTF app and upgrade to premium go to wtf pod for uh for information about my upcoming dates if you want to buy some merch some posters some t-shirts if you want to leave a comment you can do that

through facebook uh on the uh on the uh on the site on wtfpod.com you can pick up some just coffee.co out there you get the wtf blend. I get a little bit on the back end. Yeah, you can do what you got to do. All right? Okay. I think I have a problem. Boomer lives! We'll be right back. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs and mozzarella balls, yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats, get almost, almost anything.

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