WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 532 - Kathy Griffin

Episode Date: September 10, 2014

Kathy Griffin stops by for a true throwback WTF episode. It's a throwback because Kathy and Marc spend the first 10 minutes defusing past tension and figuring out the root of their problem. Then with that out of the way, they talk about the alternative comedy scene, Kathy's struggles to fit in with the stand-up crowd and her unlikely breakthrough as a reality TV star. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Take a closer look at how at calgaryeconomicdevelopment.com. It's hockey season, and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get an ice rink on Uber Eats. But iced tea, ice cream, or just plain old ice? Yes, we deliver those. Goaltenders, no. But chicken tenders, yes. Because those are groceries ice yes we deliver those goaltenders no but chicken tenders yes because those are groceries and we deliver those too along with your favorite restaurant food

alcohol and other everyday essentials order uber eats now for alcohol you must be legal drinking age please enjoy responsibly product availability varies by region see app for details all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fucking ears what the fuck sticks what the fucksters what the fuck nuggets what the fuck tuckians oh man i haven't used that one in a while. I am Mark Maron. This is WTF. I appreciate you being here. Welcome to the show. What's going on?

I can't see. I can't see right now. I'm wearing my glasses and I'm wearing my clip-on sunglasses because I just got my eyes dilated. I went to the eye doctor. I went to see my Jasbo doctor my jasbo optometrist dr elliot kane yeah man cool man cool man cool man elliot kane dude's a saxophone player man he's got a little trio going on he's got a few albums i've talked about him before and he's probably in his 60s but he talks all groovy and shit and it's always good to see him i was a little mellow and he thought i was being you know what i he talks all groovy and shit, and it's always good to see him. I was a little mellow, and he thought I was being,

you know what, I'll tell you about in a minute. Today on the show, Kathy Griffin is here. I do want to make note and want you to make note, mental note, that this interview was recorded before Joan Rivers passed away. Otherwise, Kathy obviously would have spoken about it because she has spoken about it. But it's great talk. Kathy Griffin. I don't think you guys knew that

I kind of started out with her. We go back a bit. A bit. Not a lot, but a bit. We definitely went different directions, obviously. But we're all in show business. Isn't that true, people? Isn't it true? I'm going to be doing the Oddball Fest up at the Shoreline Amphitheater tomorrow night.

That's in Mountain View, California. I'll be at the Verizon Amphitheater in Irvine on Saturday. I will be at the Trippany House. These are important dates. If you're in L.A. or you're traveling to L.A. and you want to come hang out with me, this is a cheap ticket. These are workshop shows. Usually I'm trying to polish up a nice hour for next year's tour and for the New York Comedy Festival

and maybe try some new stuff. But the Trippany House is a wonderful place to see me. It's a small theater. It's at the Steve Allen Theater and they have a parking lot. So I can't pitch it enough. I'll be at the Los Angeles Podcast Festival on September 27th doing a live podcast.

You can go to lapodfest.com or wtfpod.com for that information. And two big shows at the New York Comedy Festival on November 7th at the Skirball Center. If you have not gotten

tickets for that, they added that second show and it's almost sold out. So don't wait any longer. Oh shit, Comics Come Home November 8th in Bostonoston massachusetts that's a big show uh what that okay so there you go that's what i'm doing onward onward it's cool man

dr elliot came my my jazz optometrist yeah you know he's doing a music thing and he's got his uh he's got his eye doctor practice going on but i was feeling a little low when i went in there and i was feeling a little yeah it was like three in the afternoon i was tired and you know i'm trying you know he's trying to get these things to you know the lens thing where he's switching back good no yes no yes one two two one it's taking a long time and i'm starting to, to feel aggravated and anxious. And I'm like, what's going on, man? Why can't we nail this thing down? He's like, don't worry, man. It's cool. Take some time. I'm like, okay. All right.

He says, how your eyes been? I said, well, you know, sometimes it seems like some days are better than others. Is that possible? Sometimes I have a hard time kind of focusing on far away things. Sometimes they seem good. Maybe it has something to do with me paying attention to it. But sometimes they're just not, you know, they're just, you know, day to day, it seems. Some days are better than others. He said, yeah, man, that's the way it is with the mind, the soul, the eyes. And I'm like, yeah, man, I guess you're right. That is the way it is. So we went through all this stuff with my eyes.

And I'm like, what is going on? Is it that much worse? What's going on? He goes, well, you're getting old. You're getting older. My eyes are getting old. I do not like thinking about it. I'm not adverse to thinking about age, but I do not like to think about it necessarily.

And I always wondered, you know, my mother always used to tell me like she she would tell me like i don't feel my age i don't feel old i feel 20 something and i'm like all right well that's a a little disconcerting it's a little uncomfortable but but i guess i get what you mean but i now i'm you know i'm 50 i'm to be 51 in a couple weeks. So I'm getting old. I get it. Every once in a while, I'll walk by the mirror and I'll be like, who is that guy? And for that split second, I saw me for exactly who I was with no filters. I'm okay with it.

I still have a dream that someday I'll have six-pack abs. But unless they happen in a dream, I don't know how they're going to happen at this point. God damn it, I need to start running again. God damn it. I would almost think whoever this guy is who decided to hand deliver a card to my home, I don't encourage it. It's sort of odd. He brought me me he got me a little card but uh yeah what did he say hello dear mark maron my name is so and so andy so and so i am 19 years

old currently visiting los angeles and i'm a big fan of yours and i'm considering uh pursuing a comedic career and consider consider you one of my influences to do so. I've emailed the WTF podcast, but got no response. I was also told where you live at in Highland Park, but didn't want to simply knock on your door because I feared you would either call the police or think I was another one of the creepy fans you've been known to run into. I'm writing this not for an autograph or a picture or anything like that.

I would simply just like to sit and talk with you, hopefully for an extended period of time. Also, since this may not be your address, although the WTF podcast bumper stickers on the car outside would suggest otherwise, I'm not too comfortable giving out my phone number it's got no problem walking onto my property and dropping me this card that says he wants to sit down for an hour but you know just in case someone else gets hold of this he does not want to leave his phone number he wants to make it clear to me so please contact me on twitter and he gives me his twitter handle there please respond as soon as possible thank you Andy I'm responding do you hear me Andy I'm not comfortable with this at all Andy I'm not

comfortable with the fact that you know you just tracked it down track me down you got a nice card all right see this is where it cuts both ways I yeah I appreciate the sentiment but you can't say you're not a creepy fan and then tell me that you want to just hang out for an hour. But you didn't want to knock on my door, but you had no problem putting, you know, coming up to my mailbox and looking at my car and shit. But the bottom line is, Andy, who did you think was going to get your phone number? That to me was the rub there. Like, I don't want to be weird. And this is weird.

I just came to your house. I handled this. I looked in your car and I told you I want to hang out with you for an hour, but I don't want to be weird. And this is weird. I just came to your house. I hand deliver this. I looked in your car and I told you I want to hang out with you for an hour, but I don't want to knock on your door. But just in case, I'm not going to leave you my phone number. Well, that's where you blew it, Andy, because I was going to call you. Good luck with the comedy thing. Generally, I don't know what you would do.

I mean, I don't know what I would say to somebody trying to start out for 45 minutes. I mean, I say it all here anyways. You know, you just got to try it. You know, if you want to try comedy, that's all you can do is you can just go find an open mic, get on stage, put your three or four jokes together. You don't got to be up there three to five minutes. You can get off in 40 seconds if you want. No one's going to judge you. You know, that's what it's there for.

Go try it. And if it sucks don't do it again but if it sucks but you're hooked god bless good luck godspeed welcome to the life i believe i have said that before so i didn't talk about red rocks i did not talk about red rocks i was uh i did the oddball fest last weekend uh in red rocks at the i guess you would call it the red rocks amphitheater but for those you don't know it's just outside of denver and it is an amphitheater an amphitheater that was carved out of the rock right in the middle of the mountain it was spectacular i that was the reason i took that

gig i just wanted to play there i I wanted to feel Red Rocks. I mean, this place has been around since the early 1900s. It's community oriented. When they're not doing rock concerts, they do movies during the summer. They do local events. It's a well-used and well-lived performance venue, if you could call it a venue. There's sort of like caves underneath it where you walk from one side of the stage to the other.

It's all carved out of the mountain. People like Hendrix played there in like 68. The Beatles were there, I think, on their first U.S. tour. The Dead was there. U2 filmed one video. I think it was Sunday Buddy Sunday, maybe. But it's famous, man. Everyone has played there.

Richard Pryor played there. I mean, the history of the place is phenomenal. There's a mystical vibe to being on the stage that's in this amphitheater carved out of the desert rocks. I don't know if they're desert up there, but they're red rocks. So they look like desert rocks. And it's just sort of on either side, there's sort of a stone-faced cliff almost. And there are those moments where you're thinking like, these rocks have bounced off some of the greatest sounds and feelings and notes in the world. They've absorbed it or moved it around. You know, that there was this moment when I was on stage thinking like,

man, if these rocks, like if that one rock on stage left up there, that one ridge could talk to that other ridge, I wonder what kind of conversations they would have shared. Probably a few like, oh, no

way. This is crazy. The rocks would have talked. I just pictured these two cliffs going oh fuck yes how is this even possible two big rocks cliffs just listening to prior but at some point one of the one of the cliffs must have said to the other what is this bullshit john tesh why is this guy here what's? Will they just book anybody at this place now? This is ridiculous. Hendrix was here.

Pryor was here. The Beatles were here. The Dead was here several times. John Tesh, what's happening? And the other rock probably said, I don't know, man. Give him a chance. It's kind of interesting. It's kind of goofy.

Look at that piano instrument. I've never seen anything like that before. You have seen too many shows. You've gone soft rock. And the other guy says, listen, don't talk to me like that rock. I enjoy some of this new agey type of noodling. Oh, you and I aren't speaking. So that's what I know. I know that both sides of the two sides of Red Rocks are probably not talking to each other right now. And it's over the John Tesh issue that's my speculation but the other uh interesting thing is that you know i was on that show with uh it was me uh ck aziz sarah whitney cummings sarah silverman whitney

cummings uh dimitri martin um and hannibal burress and me and louis and sarah and dimitri Martin and Hannibal Buress and me and Louis and Sarah and Dimitri a few years later you know we all started together in New York and I hadn't seen Dimitri in a long time and there have been times in my life where he's rubbed me the wrong way for reasons that were completely my own and projected but he did a great set and it was very sweet and uh and you know it was interesting because we were backstage just watching um i think sarah was on brody stevens was there uh hosting and dimitri goes it's just so wild man to to see you out there and to know that when i was starting out you know i would go watch you at luna you know just being you know who you are and now we're we're here you know and you were just standing out there just being who you are you know, I would go watch you at Luna, you know, just being, you know, who you are. And now we're, we're here, you know, and you were just standing out there just being who you are, you know,

and this is like, what, 20 some odd years later. It's just, it's amazing, isn't it? It's amazing. And I'm like, yeah, it is kind of. And, you know, and I really appreciated that he brought me down to that. Cause you know, you go through life and you just sort of like doing it, doing it, doing it, next thing, next thing. And sometimes you don't take time, man. I got to take time to be like, holy shit, I'm living an amazing life and I'm grateful for that. I can do that. And I just did it right here publicly for you. Now, moving on.

Enough of that emoting. I can make those feelings of gratitude into discomfort in a second. Just like that. That's the magic of me. I got a genuine pleasant feeling. Why not just send that through the Marin Mill and turn it to garbage? Okay, as I said earlier, this conversation with Kathy Griffin was recorded before Joan Rivers passed away. Because Kathy certainly would have discussed that,

but it was not a reality when we talked. And I hope you enjoy this. This is, let's go now to me talking to Kathy Griffin, the amazing Kathy Griffin, the infamous and unique Kathy. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special

5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com.

Calgary is an opportunity-rich city home to innovators, dreamers, disruptors, and problem solvers. The city's visionaries are turning heads around the globe across all sectors each and every day. They embody Calgary's DNA. A city that's innovative, inclusive, and creative.

And they're helping put Calgary and our innovation ecosystem on the map as a place where people come to solve some of the world's greatest challenges. Calgary's on the right path forward. Take a closer look at CalgaryEconomicDevelopment.com. Griffin. Kathy, it's nice to see you.

It's fantastic to see you. You know, my memories of you are old. But I can't believe that you opened, literally opened the door with our quote tension. So obviously you want to go there and... No, it's a bad memory. You're the one with secrets, not me. I have no secrets. Well, that's not what i heard what are you talking about i hear your stockpiling secrets in a quest to get more famous no i wish i could i wish i had more i dig them out of me

i totally made you're the way famous one but here's my memory yeah that uh i know exactly when it happened go ahead because i do too you do aspen comedy festival yes in? Yes. Oh my God. In a hotel room, of course. It was you, me, Garofalo. We don't need to say the name of the lady, right? But there was a lady that you were seeing. We were on a show and you closed your set by ripping your shirt open and I made some sort of comment. I think I said you're using your boobs as props.

Wait, was I even wearing a bra? Yes. Okay, because I'm more proud of the fact that I at a later time decided to do it don't worry about it is this for Patton Oswalt's pot

what happens it's for anyone's pot honestly go ahead there was later a time when I felt I was so artsy that I was then

doing it without a bra and I would do it to a Celine Dion song right and my what was the point the bit was that Celine Dion took me to a place where I felt so free as a woman and an artist that I felt that clothing was no longer necessary as a barrier between me and

Celine. And of course, it was the theme for Titanic. Now I would do something a little more modern. But I also got in trouble that night for taking all of my top off. I think I went down to underpants, but at least I wore a bra that night. Maybe that's right. But you were a different person then. This was before you were a stunning princess of media.

You were kind of nerdy. You wore glasses. Yes. By the way, which I still need. And I'm like one of those assholes that like sort of hides them. And then when the movie starts, I put them on. But then as I'm walking out. That's not an asshole.

That's an old lady. Yeah, I'm an old lady now. And I'm so old that I actually lost my expensive. Reading glasses? The reading ones. So now I just go to Duane Reade and get the cheapies. Just like every mom. But the distance ones are Versace.

Okay, good. Okay, just so you know. As long as you've got balance. All right, so take me back to the hotel room because it's starting to come back in flashes. Was it the Diva in San Francisco, the Hotel Diva? It was in Aspen, I thought. Oh, Aspen, okay.

Wasn't it where we had the argument? Was it in there? Like, you remember something heated and now it's starting to come back to me. So Garofalo was there, Katsky was there, you were there, and it was a party. God, none of these people are even talking to me anymore. Really? Why? I don't know. Well, I know i mean you're busy or is it personal no i think

it's personal really personal did you alienate everyone but your gays i alienated everyone except my mother and the lgbtqia2 community and no i just um i am honestly excited to see you because i have such a great nostalgic feeling about those times. And anybody from our, as we called ourselves, the posse, which is very pretentious. It was a generation. It was the first wave of alt comedy in Los Angeles. I was in New York, but you were here with Lapidus. You were in the group.

Whenever you came to town, you were doing a set. That's right. Wait, let's first figure out what the tension was. What was the argument about? I think the argument was about, I think you were having a set that's right and wait let's first let's figure out what the tension what was the argument about i think the argument was about i think you were having an affair with tracy and then i think you slept with a different girl and i found out yeah and i think i'd like to take the credit myself but i think i may have included another a couple of the other gals from our group and busted you out and like called you out on it at some party and then you were like who

are you to call me out on it right and i was saying tracy's my friend and i'm laughing because like i said i don't think any of those girls even talk to me anymore so once again i have a very long history of sticking up for people who then really couldn't give two shits about me i remember i think i know what it was i think it was because you know before i was i was with somebody else when tracy and i had a fling that's right and i think that you know that it came up because we were all yeah okay but I just want to say this though no secrets I thought it was about material material oh maybe I thought it was me judging you in some harsh way oh god I was so used to you and Louie and David Tell being so mean to me you

guys were all so vicious were we oh my god and you know i remember i was bombing every single set and you guys were crushing every set i think that's what it was what the fuck is she doing right so for me to be part of a lineup with let's go over like a typical lineup at aspen would be like louis ck david tell you yeah um who else in the 90s depalo yeah depalo would crush adam ferraro would crush right, these were guys that were like, boom, getting big laughs, walking off stage, and then getting freaking deals. Right. Like, or meetings with networks.

And then I go up there with my little stories. Here's my story. I'm a raconteur. And bombing so badly that I remember one time Nick DePaulo was mad. Yeah. He had to follow me. As I walked off, all you could hear was the clump of my Doc Martens yeah and you always get at least a thank you good night applause right i was bombing like so badly that people were just conversing like i will say i was lucky enough not to have hecklers

right but people would just check out and so i was like thank you aspen and you just hear the doc martens clump it was a hard situation no you guys killed it i don't know they did i don't know i think i was in between you and them would like destroy there you were choosing to do something you knew was tricky i mean i knew how to do right but you weren't you do i don't know that you were even considering yourself a stand-up comedian at that point in a way i mean i i felt i was but remember my background was groundlings and i went about it as my mother would say, ass backwards. I really did start out as an actress. When did you come out here?

I mean, first of all, let's get- I never did stand up. I don't know anything about you. Okay. I mean, I know the world does. Oh, I think you do. I think you do. I know some things.

All right. You know things that other people don't know? I remember you around. You had an edge to you. You were kind of, I remember you as being sort of angry and i remember like being around you i always felt that that we were about to fight yeah but i think that was the way you were well look i'm gonna be honest i really resented you guys because i felt like and i kind of think this is still true i felt like the guy no no this is a good thing i felt like the guy comics you and your crew were

very good at like sticking together and having each other's back and supporting each other. And one of the reasons, honestly, that I am sort of associated with the gay community is it's one thing I admire about the gay community as well. I feel that they get together. They actually make progress. And I feel that, unfortunately, as a militant feminist, my issue with women is often we tend to be the cliche and we tend to let ourselves get divided and conquered yeah and one thing about your group whether you whether i felt you guys were being nice to me or not is i really would watch from a distance and go god every set they support each other every set they're giving each other crap and

they're joking around and i felt like with the, and there were so few of us, I felt like Sarah Silverman was very much in your club. Right. Well, she grew up with us. Yeah, she grew up with you and she's gorgeous and I wanted to be her. And Janine was very much in your club because she was, you know, reality bites and she was edgy. But we grew up with her too.

Right. And everybody was talking about her. And I didn't quite know where I fit in. So I thought, well, maybe if I just keep hanging out with them, they'll like me. But I never could get that style of like Crusher Club comedy that you guys had. Yeah, yeah. Just nailing a... You were not a comedy club person.

Correct. But you came up... When did you come to LA first? I came to LA in like 78. Oh my God. From where? From Illinois. You grew up in what?

Chicago? I grew up in Forest Park, Oak Park. Never Chicago proper. But I grew up grade school, Catholic school in Forest Park. I've left the church just in case you're wondering. I was assuming. I've left in a big way. But you grew up in a real Catholic family?

Yeah. Real Catholic. How many kids? Youngest of five. Total Irish alcoholic. Full story. Both your parents or just your dad? Both.

Both alcoholics? Yes. From Ireland. And then the one priest who was an uncle that kept getting moved parish to parish. One of those. Yeah. Still alive? No, he passed away of AIDS.

Was there? Really? Yeah. No kidding. Right. So you've got the history of church in your blood. Yes. You've got the history of the Catholic church. I remember Father Porter. Yeah. Okay. So if you ever did the Boston circuit, remember that big story? Sure. And that started from the old timey personal. Someone wrote in and wrote, do you remember

Father Porter? And then that was, I don't want to say the start of it, but I mean, that was sort of a very public way to. What was that other one from Boston? Chandley? What was his name? I don't know, but every, every archdiocese has one and you know a lot a lot of my comedy i mean a lot of why i've become sort of like the big mouth or the whistleblower or the behind the scenes about pop culture and celebrity is you know when you grew up in that catholic family of don't say anything and even if you see proof of it you better deny it because that's how we roll. That's really what made me the mouth in the alcoholic family. Well, how did you end up not being alcoholic? Did you go the other way?

I've never had a drink in my life. Do you control freaky? Yeah. Oh, so you went that way. Yeah. Trying to manage. Never had a drink in my life. Are your parents, were they actually Irish?

Are they, did they? A hundred percent. Really? Yeah. With accents and everything? No, they actually, my mom is the youngest of 16 oh my god how is that even possible take it in because imagine her mom every year if every nine months probably because that was birth control birth control is for the devil remember

no i understand it but that that's saying that sounds ambitious 16 i don't think there was a lot of thought put into it no i know that but i've never heard of a family so they can't do you know steerages yeah underneath yeah sure so they came over steerage and then um all 16 of them no how many fucking cousins do you have uh innumerable um and it's funny because some of them i get along with really well and then some of them i don't know if you found this like in your family but when i grew up the times were so much more liberal that i have cousins where when we were little girls yeah we were talking about the national organization of women and we thought gloria steinem was like the coolest chick ever yeah we grew up in the 70s and that same cousin yeah is now like going on the glenbeck israel tour

and is like super super religious how is it how going to find that? How do you know when someone's going to snap back? Do you know what I mean? In which way? Well, I mean, you grow up in the 70s and I think a lot of times when there's no boundaries or people have a difficult time processing everything, they snap back, they close up and they look for something that is narrow

and has order and usually it's wrong. The reason I'm looking at you quizzically is because that almost didn't exist, or rather the process of seeing them snap back didn't exist. Right. And so I really felt it was, I don't want to say incumbent upon me, but I felt like I did not have a choice as to be that sort of alien, the movie Alien. Right. Trying to relate to the heteros sure

um bursting out of me with if nothing else honesty and i think many of the reasons i bombed for like a good i'm gonna go with five years solid is because i just sort of stood there saying sort of things that were honest and hoping some of them were funny well i think that one of the i think that the the one thing that you might have lacked was a certain uh you know stand-up stagecraft like the audience i had none but the audience was different see like now you find your own audience and they they're completely capable of listening but i do not think that audiences who were expecting a stand-up show had anywhere to place you in their mind well you have to know that i to this day i really get the ass crack sweat thinking about doing a seven minute set or a 10 minute set.

It's impossible for long form people to do that. Oh, it's an nightmare. It's hard for me to do it. But do you remember the days, and I don't know if you, you might have been too cool for this. I don't know. But like, do you remember the expressions of like trying to get together your Star Search 3? I don't, I never tried to do Star Search. Okay.

So in our crowd, whether you like it or not. Yeah. There were several people that either were on Star Search or trying to get on Star Search. And. So in our crowd, whether you like it or not, there were several people that either were on Star Search or trying to get on Star Search. And I couldn't believe, I will say I was dazzled by the ability of any comic to do, and I think Todd Glass may have been one of them, by the way, and many, many funny comedians that could do a set in three minutes. It's impossible.

Well, now Letterman, he's still four and a half minutes. I mean, Tonight Show is still four and a half minutes. That's right. There was the Tonight Show six. Yeah. Then there was, I, he's still four and a half minutes. I mean, Tonight Show is still four and a half minutes. That's right. There was the Tonight Show 6. Yeah. Then there was, I think it would jump to like the College 50. Well, yeah, I had to do an hour, yeah. Now, did you used to go to that college convention?

No, NACA. I was- You, what? That's like made for you. No. Back then, I was an angry, insecure guy. I was not operating- Like every college kid, you mean?

Well, right. But I was not operating at the same level or the same popularity as even David Teller, Louis, or any of those guys. Really? Yeah. No, no, no. I was sort of an outsider. Because I could never get invited to NACA.

But I remember Garofalo would go and she would sort of brag about bombing. And yet it led to, I think, lucrative gigs for a lot of our friends. Oh, yeah. The guys who could do it. Yeah. I mean, you're usually playing for freshmen. It's usually student activities money. I never did that well.

Okay. I would think you would do very well. Now, maybe. Now, right? As a professor, as a visiting professor. Okay, so do you feel like, because I just did a college last weekend. Do you feel like when you and I- How'd you draw?

I drew okay, but I will say the audience was shockingly good, and I did the basketball court. So sometimes you do a college and you do the like performing art like I did a show at Harvard that was like a dream. And then sometimes you're back in the basketball court baby and they were so nice. But I would think you do very well at colleges. I haven't tried. I will

try. They're fun. I know it's yeah it's time. It's time. I can go as me now. You go as a celebrity and then they buy tickets to see only you as opposed to when they're just going to see only you as opposed to when they're just going to see a show. Right,

I'm doing okay with a draw in some places and I think that'll be good but I'm curious now, all right, so you have five, you're four siblings. You want to just

talk ticket sales? No, no, I'm not going to. Because I'll four wall with you up at the S, honey. You're a rock star.

I'll four wall, whatever you want to talk about. You are an empire. I've gone from the guarantee to the back end. I've gone with counting with like Joey Left Eye in the back until the show's over. Sure.

All right, but I'm more curious about what made you who you are. Okay. So you have four siblings. Yes, youngest of four. Are they around? No. My eldest brother, Kenny, he was a crack addict and homeless. For how long?

A long time. And what's odd- How much older is he than you? Well, here's what's, here's what's so delicious and twisted about my family. My beloved mother

is going to be 94 June 10s and does enjoy a box of wine and yet is highly functional. In fact, is shockingly sharp as a tack. Okay. So my joke is I'm like hoping she gets dementia.

Yeah. So she's, so she just remembers everything and still like gives me shit about the same stuff. But anyway, she lives remembers everything and still like gives me shit about the same stuff but anyway she lives nearby and then she stays with me sometimes my father passed away seven years ago he was here's what's tricky i don't know if you have this in your family i didn't realize till my father passed away that my mom was always like the potential right wing nut job

and my dad luckily was lefty and kept the balance right so now i've kind of like i don't want to say lost my mom to bill o'Reilly and Hannity and those nut jobs, but our arguments are getting more heated than I would like. Well, O'Reilly kind of plays a Catholic card too a little bit. Yes, exactly. So he taps in, yeah. He taps into Maggie Griffin in a big way. And of the siblings, what was interesting about my brother, Kenny, was that while he

was never convicted of being a pedophile, he also didn't deny it. So I grew up with that kind of energy and that kind of Catholic stuff happening and the secrecy around it. Do you think he was abused? Yes. He allegedly told my parents, not in front of me, that it was in fact like a coach that had abused him. And I'm assuming I'm going to go with priest while we're at it. And I have another brother but did he abuse you no but he had a friend who did not i you know this is very odd

in this sort of world that we're talking about i want to be sensitive abused but not this is gonna sound so weird i'm not i'm so afraid to like downplay anything but not penetration right still abuse right it was not good okay so anyway um my my theory is that because this guy was my brother's bestie i have often had a lot of fear and guilt about is this something that they were doing together for fun because my guess is dudes like this find each other right um and also in my brother ken's case who's no longer with us his ex-wife and then separately his ex-girlfriend told me personally that he was doing this and when my father finally said to him later in life yeah kathleen is estranged from you because she believes you're a pedophile is that true and my brother ken said to my father i do what i do that's what he said okay so to this day

my beloved mother is like well that's not an admission let me tell you something do you have sexual kids no okay so your answer isn't i do what i do okay yeah if you asked me i would not say i do what i do i would say nope i sure don't. Yeah, no way. And I can probably prove it. Right. Did your parents, either of them, sober up? Well, I will say that here's what's interesting. They were always highly, highly functional. They never got into a car accident. No violence in the house?

No violence in the house, except for my brother. The brother who passed away was violent toward his wife in front of me. But he seemed like he got the disease. He he got the alcohol he was off the rails always yeah um but no what's interesting about my mom and dad and um a couple of my siblings is never got duis but i could like make a tom collins when i was eight right so if you think that's normal to have mommy and daddy say... Well, you're the one who was in control of everything. Well, we had the paper,

like the packets. Sure, the Tom Collins. But you know, did you grow up on like space food sticks and Tang? Not really. I grew up a Jew,

so there was more... With real food? Yeah, well, not really real food, but more diety food I think I grew up with. Because my mother, I'm just going to tell you something

and you can judge as you will, but I'm going to just tell you what my mother said. I'm on board with you. I'm just a diet-y food, I think, I grew up with. Because my mother, I'm just going to tell you something, and you can judge as you will, but I'm going to just tell you what my mother said. I'm on board with you. I'm just going to be honest because, all right. We're doing honest. A, she's 94, so I'm going to give you a little bit of the codependent. She's not going to hear this. No, what I mean is, I'm afraid you're, I'm sort of afraid you're going to turn on her,

but I'm just going to tell you this. I'm not going to. Okay. And like I said, I'm making excuses because of her age, but it's's inappropriate so i moved her into this gorgeous retirement village that has everything it's like the four seasons it's beautiful her one um complaint about it is that it is these are her words too jewy yeah no i well well i i can understand that but do you want can i tell you why she feels it's quote too jewy they talky? They talk too much around her? No. What? They're way more concerned with the food than the booze.

Don't laugh at that. Don't support that. Please. Please. You should be condemning her and saying that that's horrible. Yeah. So when I, because when she said that to me, I was really, that really caught me off guard because I've never heard. It doesn't surprise me.

No, but I've never heard anything anti-Semitic from her in 94 years. And I finally was determined to get to the bottom of what is too Jew-y in your mind? And then when she said, you know, there's like a cafeteria at the retirement village. She said, how many times when I'm trying to have a glass of goddamn wine can those people

return a tuna melt? She just wants to be left alone to drink. Yes! So my question for you is, is she an anti-semite or not no i think she's seeing jews in their rawest and most irritating form i think after a certain age it's just about food and poop and it can't be uh it can't be a party for anybody well don't get me started on the shits yeah because that is her main her main topic. Sure, sure. But hers is booze and shits. That's the difference. Well, she doesn't understand why an entire tribe would choose food when there's wine

and- It's a different priority. There's a Manhattan to be made. There's an old fashioned to be made. Well, I think the Jews by nature eat their feelings away and the Catholics by nature drink their feelings away. Hello, speak English, please. Sure.

That does not compute with maggie griffin no no one iota food doesn't do food is not capable of suppressing the secrets you're okay with her using those people no i'm not okay with it but i mean people after we'd rather have a nice sandwich what do you want me to say your mother's a horrible jew hating old catholic lady well i can't say it no i'll say it for you. From my point of view, your mother's a horrible Jew hater. Oh, my God. The bad thing is my siblings will listen to this. So my mom won't, but my siblings will.

No, I mean, you know, people. But it's sort of, you gotta laugh. People of certain dispositions, you know, who have a legacy or who honor their past. And they come from a weird place. Jewish bigots are no better. What is your cutoff age? For what? You know what?

Like at what age will you kind of let a comment like that slide? It's at the age where you know the argument is not going to change anything. You're not going to shed new light. So would you, okay, 45 or 50, would you be like, dude, you know what, that's not cool. It's a little inappropriate. And then like, is there a specific cutoff point where you go, you know what, I'm just going to let this one pass. Well, sometimes it just depends.

Do you want to invest the energy? And how horrible is the comment? And sometimes you feel guilty investing the energy in someone at a certain age where you think, well, they could die. Well, the ones that I don't like are the ones that test you. Like, they say something. They're like, well, you're going to let me. Oh, that's all old people. That's every person at my mom's retirement village.

Some people are just shameless about it. They love to push the button. That's their way of, like, feeling young all old people. That's every person at my mom's retirement village. Some people are just shameless about it. They love to push the button. That's their way of feeling young again and stuff. Yeah, my mom's a big button pusher. That's why I joke that the dementia's got to hit eventually because she can get the jabs in. If 94 hasn't happened, it's not going to happen. It's her idea of a good time. Where are the rest of your siblings?

Are they all okay? My brother just passed away a couple of months ago from a very, very nasty battle with esophageal cancer. Oh my God. And I will tell you this, if I can get serious for one second. Get serious. One thing, I was in the room with him the whole nine. Yeah.

You were that close? Well, the palliative care people are amazing and they actually come out and go, do you want to be in the room? And if so, this is probably how it's going to go down. So your family was there? Everybody was there? It was really cool. My brother and sister were there.

And they both said, we'll be in the room. And then I said, hey, just so you know, like no judgment. Whoever wants to be in the room, we can never bring this up later at a drunken family Christmas. Like, why weren't you in the room? Right. And so my mom said, I can't. I can't handle it. And then she did something very sweet.

She asked if my boyfriend would sit with her. can't handle it and then she did something very sweet she asked um if my boyfriend would sit with her uh-huh and um the comedy because you got to find the comedy and everything is that my boyfriend had about five hours earlier had um his first colonoscopy i just did that but you're supposed to take the day off when you have a colonoscopy yeah yeah you should no he was he was actually up and running with the griffins yeah crazy griffins i think the two days before is when you should probably stay close to home yeah that's not fun that's not fun but i'm just saying a colonoscopy is no joke with the with the uh and you know you know the hospital call they call the propofol michael's milk uh-huh that's like hospital humor what what does that mean

it means that's how michael jackson died from a propofol overdose so the nurses love to be like you want some michael's milk You don't even feel that. I went right out. I don't think I got that. Did it even make you try to count back? They made me try to count back for three seconds and then I was out. I was going to say, because when they say from a hundred, I always feel like saying, you know, you can start at three. Yeah, just do three. You don't need to say count back from a hundred anymore. I don't even remember. I just remember talking to the doctor and I didn't even see the anesthesiologist. I think he just started. Very stealth. Yeah, turn on your side.

Did you express fear? Did you say like, I'm an anxious person? No, I didn't. I was pretty in. It was a little weird. The facility was a little odd to me because it wasn't a hospital. It's just a room. It's like an operating facility. I didn't realize they had those. That's all they do

there is doctors kind of rent the place. Oh, I know that from plastic surgery. Right. So when I had my facelift in 2001, I was like, this is somebody's office. Yeah. And then the scam is then, well, this is plastic surgery, which I know you're very into. Obviously, you clearly have had a ton of work done. I have it in my family.

I am not. No, but what's the scam with plastic surgery is that if you go in for a facelift, number one, they do it in an office not unlike this. And number two, they have the nerve to charge you rent. Right. So it's their own office. And then they go, okay, so the facelift is whatever it is. And then there's the facility rental fee.

And I'm like, dude, that's your office. Is it their office? Yes. It's a scam. That's a bit of a racket. Well, this is plastic surgery. Let's go back because I have a specific thing I want to know. Okay.

So you leave your massive Irish family. Yeah. You turn your back on God at what point? I turned my back on God in junior high. I came home and announced when I went to St. Bernardine's that I wanted to become a Unitarian because I had heard that they were, you know, not as strict, etc. And then my father, this is sort of funny. My father threatened to disown me. And I think seventh grade.

And I was like, where really, where am I going to go? Like, what does that really mean? You're going to, you know, I was trying to be existential. And then he did scare me, I think, into going to mass a couple more times, but. But you went to confession and everything. Oh, I did the confession. I just want to say in defense of Unitarianism,

the Unitarian church in my town of oak park was built by frank lloyd wright so i just want to say i'm not a religious person but if you're going to go to one service go to oak park illinois and go to the frank lloyd wright unitarian church because it's beautiful how did this so how did the whole catholicism thing fuck your head about sex in general well first of all you know um i i for whatever reason at a very early age just like my act i the one thing i can't stand is not talking about things right so you know i remember um i had a very um progressive do you know lay teacher is a lay teacher yeah in the catholic church you're either not of the cloth correct yes correct so when i was actually just had um dinner with my third grade science teacher after

a gig I did over the weekend, Mr. Major. And he was a lay teacher, which was like very edgy, right? Right. When one of our modern-esque lay teachers, very living on the edge, and I'm sure without any approval from the nuns or the priests, gave us a simple worksheet that you should give to anyone, certainly in junior high, which would be 7th or 8th grade. And it was a worksheet that you do with your mom and dad.

Yeah. And it was basically birds and bees. Right. So I was very excited to have an actual conversation. I knew not to go to my dad. I was like, forget it. He's working 12 hours a day at the Hi-Fi store. That's what he did?

Hi-Fi. Yeah? Sold stereos? Yeah. Oh, that's nice. I wanted to test you because I wanted to see. If I hear one person say, what's Hi-Fi? I'm going to smack them.

No, I always went to Hi-Fi stores. Thank you. Do you have his own Hi-Fi store? Okay. This is the one area that we were cool. So total middle class all the way. Total depression parents. Because my dad worked at a Hi-Fi store, each one of us five kids had our own stereo.

Nice. That's pretty cool. And you had older sibs, so you had a lot of music coming at you. I was all about their older music. So I was all about getting, you know. It sounded like you had every decade represented. Because what was the difference between you and your brother age-wise? 20 years.

Oh, so, yeah. So that's the thing, is I actually did grow up on really good music. So it was all like, you know, Beatles and Bonnie Raitt and all that stuff. So anyway, there was a worksheet where I was supposed to have an open conversation with my mother. And I mean, it was from a Catholic school, so it didn't have like bad words. And I remember my mom was on the phone with my aunt Irene and it was like the long cord phone and she was sitting on a stool in the kitchen. And I just, when my mom talked to my sister, it was kind of sacred. So I was even afraid to tap her shoulder and she was in the moo moo, the whole thing. And I said, when my mom talked to my sister, it was kind of sacred. So I was even afraid to tap her shoulder

and she was in the moo-moo, the whole thing. And I said, mom, this is part of an assignment. I have to ask you these questions. She looked at the paper from St. Bernadine's and went, Jesus Christ, I'm not talking to you about this. You know what? And I said, but mom, we're supposed to talk about something called contraception.

And my mom said, the word no. Now I'm talking to your aunt. And that was my birds and bees talk. The word. Now I'm talking to your aunt. And that was my birds and bees talk. The word no, I'm talking to your aunt. Well, were you afraid of hell? Yes. And that was like, even in third grade, I had the hand up and I was like, Sister Mary Betrieal.

Okay, that's the flight nun. But Sister Mary, whatever. You know, I would say these seem like kind of minor infractions. Yeah. but sister mary whatever yeah you know i would say these seem like kind of minor infractions yeah like let's i i get the hell you know killing someone but really using the lord's name in vain have you been to my house yeah right everybody's going so it seemed unreasonable well and also seemed like a racket not only that also concurrently while i was hearing that from the nuns at school the minute i went home i would hear a litany of reasons i was going to hell in a handbasket sure and that seems small okay but i going to hell in a handbasket. Sure. And that seems small.

Okay. But I don't know what a handbasket is. Anyways, you can't fit in it. Okay. Thank you. So I didn't know how seriously I was to take the nuns when I would go home and my mother would say, you're going to hell in a handbasket. So you eventually thought it was a scam. Very early on.

I'm going to go ahead and say maybe even first grade. Like early on, I was going, this sounds like bullshit. Right. So now the decision to, well, when did you end up losing your virginity? Oh, that's the part I'm the most proud of. 19. Oh, good. Yeah.

You waited. You're not shocked by that? No. What about you? 17. Nice job. Because everybody else who says 13, like it's nothing, I can't even imagine having sex. I don't have any anxiety about it.

No, I... Not even God-related, just generally. I saw porn too young, and it really fucked my head up. Okay, so I never saw porn, but up until 17, did the idea of sex actually turn you on, or was it weird? Absolutely. But I just, the idea of like, you know,

getting from it, turning me on to doing it was a big leap. See when, for me, like really up until, like I said, 18 or 19, when I finally did it, the,

just the idea of it sounded potentially painful, bizarre. Like I still, I honestly, I know as a dude, you're going to laugh at this. It took me a while to go, I'm not sure what the girl gets out of it. Because growing up without ever even- I don't know. Early on, I don't know if they get much out of it.

I never masturbated until after I started having sex. What were you doing? Not masturbating. So when it came to, should you have sex at 14, 15, 16, 17- Why didn't you masturbate? I didn't even know what it was it didn't even occur to me i thought it was something boys did really really so there was no porn in my house zero but before but there were brothers and there was a uh there was you know some sexual deviancy correct correct but i never walked in on any of my brothers masturbating i certainly you

know i never walked in on mom and dad having sex, so I don't have that story. But did you do anything else before you lost your virginity? I mean, were you doing other things? I don't think I, I don't think, okay, here's what I can, I swear to God, I did not talk to one of my grade school

or high school girlfriends about masturbating. My hand to God, I did not like even say like, have you guys tried masturbating? It took, my first boyfriend was like, what do you mean you've never masturbated? And then I said, well, I mean, I guess I should. I wouldn't even really know how.

This is when you were 19. Yeah, when I was 19. And so the first guy that I had sex with kind of walked me through it and showed me. And then, of course, I was like, oh, this is great. I don't need you anymore. This guy was very, thank you.

Goodbye. He was actually very, he was, I felt bad for this guy. Like I was such a horrible first lay for this guy. Like this guy had sort of, he knew what he was doing. Yeah.

And he's like patiently going, well, here's all your masturbate and here's how you fuck. And I was like, really? You know, I mean, I was really,

was it bad? I mean, by the mean, I was really. Was it bad? And by the way, I never talked to women about this. You're the first woman I've ever really talked to about this. On the air. It's not really what I do. No, no, I know.

I know. Because of the Catholicism. I actually have been told that this is like not the area you like to go in. Is that true? Yeah. Yeah.

Someone's been listening and advising you on. I've had several people be like, he doesn't want to go here. He wants to go here. All right. So when did you, so you come out here, how old are you like, he doesn't want to go here. He wants to go here. All right. So when did you, so you come out here,

how old are you when you start, you want to be an actress? I convinced my parents because, okay, first of all, this is really cliche,

but my mom and dad decided to retire in California from Chicago because of the crappy winters. That's not the cliche, but because my dad was such a golf fanatic. Right.

It was going to be somewhere where he could golf year round. So they wanted to go to San Diego because they had visited there once and then i talked them into los angeles because i was so determined to be an actress of some kind that i knew i couldn't do it in san diego and so i had to look up golf courses and when i say look up it was like magazines right and be like oh are you kidding? The golf courses near Fox Studios are great. Yeah. And near Warner Brothers.

Right. They're the best golf courses. And you sold him on that? Yeah. Sold him. And we lived in the grossest apartment. Sorry. But Pico and Lincoln.

How many kids were left in the house at that point? At that point, it was just me. I mean, first of all, I was living with my parents until I was 28. So take that in. Well, but don't worry because it got really normal when I moved in with the next door neighbor, John. And then I was living with him three feet away from my mom and dad's apartment. In a romantic relationship? At Pico and Lincoln.

You met your neighbor? Yes. And that's who you decided to be with? I moved next door. But what I mean is, you know, mom and dad would open the front door and there was John, my boyfriend, three feet away. Did that for five years off and on. Come on.

Sorry. What is that about? It's true. What were you afraid of? It's about mental illness. I don't know what it's about. What kind of mental illness? I mean, it's about something was wrong with me that I would think I'm going to segue to

the boyfriend. What do you think it was? What were you afraid of? Well, first of all, I think I liked him. But I don't think it occurred to me if I liked him to go, you know, John, you and I should probably. Get a place further away? Even down the block. Where they can hear us through the walls?

Were you that attached to your parents? Is that the last kid syndrome? I will. It's the last kid syndrome. And also my parents did this thing that was really fucked up where they really worked hard to indoctrinate me and convince me that there was no way I could financially support myself. And it's one of the reasons I am so money obsessed to this day is because my mom saw the infamous like 60 minutes about the lady who lost everything and had to live in her car and eat dog food. And so so to this day you could probably call my mother and she would say if Kathleen doesn't stop spending she's gonna eat dog food right but just so you know I'm not a crazy spender

like I own my house outright I own my car outright I'm not walking around with an Hermes bag but to this day I still kind of have that bag yeah all right I have a Gucci bag. But it's 10 years old. But anyway, I'm just saying, you know, I really believed at that time that while I was temping full time and being in the Groundlings, I couldn't even afford an apartment. And so when I finally got my first studio apartment

on Sentinella for $329 a month, I lived there for six years. Yeah, very frugal and frayed. I just thought, oh my gosh, $329 a month. I lived there for six years. Yeah, very frugal and frayed. I just thought, oh my gosh, $329 a month, and I'm working full time, and I'm in the Groundlings. How am I ever going to pay my rent? And so I was determined to never acquire any debt, which I never did. I borrowed, once in my life, I borrowed $500 from a groundling friend, lived in a panic

until I paid him back like three weeks later, and that was it. Now, when you started the groundlings, who was in the crew? Okay, this is impressive, so get ready. What year is this? This is, I'm going to say 78, 79. Okay. Okay, so I'm from Chicago, so I grew up worshiping Second City. But you never went over there?

No, I went there constantly, but I was too young to be in the school. So you actually went and watched? All the time. Who were the people there then? Oh my gosh, it was Tim Kaczynski. Kazerinsky? Kazerinsky.

Yeah. It was Mary Gross. It was, you know, probably some of the greats because my parents would take me there when I was a kid. So it was a regular thing. So it was part of your life, Second City. First of all, that's one of the greats because my parents would take me there when I was a kid. So it was a regular thing. So it was part of your life, Second City. First of all, that's one of the great things. One of the frustrating things about Los Angeles is, you know, it's the only major city I know of where people don't regularly go to live entertainment.

Right. Theater of any kind. And so. They're a little jaded here. Yeah. To me, it's the hardest place to sell tickets in the world. Yeah, because they can see you for nothing if they really want to. Or they can go to a taping of a television show

and see a celebrity or whatever. So anyway, we regularly went to Second City and we regularly went to see folk acts. I used to go see John Prine on Sundays and he would actually perform at a club but at a brunch. With your parents? Yeah. So they were fans? They were very good about that.

They were very good about getting us out to live entertainment and the arts and that sort of thing. So you knew that comedic performing was something you were compelled towards. Especially Second City. Yeah. So, of course, I worshipped comedy. And I can't believe I gave this up, but I used to have the playbill of the night that my mom and dad went to the Drury Lane Theater, which I believe was in the round. And they went to see Woody Allen open for Jim Croce.

Really? How cool is that like how that must have been in like just like he did stand up for like what 69 to 72 opened for jim croce wow that must have been like in the 60s and my mom and dad of course went to see woody allen more but they also thought jim croce was a good singer he was good so they had this kind of dichotomy where they were like these crazy catholics and then they would go see woody allen and jim croce okay so second city was my influence and so i moved to los angeles yeah open up the la weekly which i lived by and there was a bad review of the groundlings but it said it's similar in tone to second city so i went by myself i took the number

four bus i went by myself honestly maybe my second second week in Los Angeles was living in the apartment with my parents on Pico. Late 70s? 79, I'm going to say. So it was before 80? Maybe 80. So it was before it really blew up. Yeah. Oh, way before. At that time, the most famous groundlings were three. It was Lorraine Newman, my idol. It was Elvira Mistress of the Dark, who was a very big local celebrity, obviously. And Pee Wee Herman had just mounted his show at the Roxy. Okay. Yet to be an HBO special. Right.

So that's all I needed. So I went to the show by myself. I thought it was dazzling. I thought it was amazing. And I just wanted to do it so badly that I snuck backstage. I walked. And when I say backstage at the Groundlings, it's not exactly the Sydney Opera House. But I'm just saying it then became my home later.

But anyway, I walked backstage, bold as brass by myself. And I just went up to who I thought was the funniest person in the show. So I went to the back backstage and there was a guy standing there and I just walked in and he kind of looked surprised. And I said, I'm sorry to bother you, but I saw the show and I just thought you guys were so incredible how can I get involved in this and he was so nice and so patient he said well there's a school and there's a guy who runs the school and I can introduce you to him and there's a whole set of clashes you have to go through and he was very patient he spent a good 10 minutes with me he directed me to the guy who ran the school and that man's name was Phil Hartman.

Oh, really? How about that? So he probably wasn't there that long at that point either. What was so awesome was he then, of course, left. Yeah. But he was a great mentor to me because prior to SNL, people don't know that Phil did every failed pilot in the world. And he really taught me that world of, and you and I know this world very well, when any one of our friends would get a pilot, we'd be like, oh, they're going to be big stars. And then when the pilot doesn't go or the show gets canceled, and Phil Hartman was that guy.

He was just constantly getting, he was on the precipice forever. Yeah. And he would leave the groundlings. Nice guy too, right? Incredibly nice. Yeah, I met him once. Like kind of a legit genius. Yeah.

You know, people throw that word around, but really dazzling on stage. He's a good artist too. A good artist. He did album covers. Well, the thing that I loved about him was he told me later that the way he ingratiated himself in the Groundlings, and I'm very big on ingratiation, is that he started, he went to the head of the school and said, can I do the graphics for, if I do the graphics for free, will you let me join the company? And that's how he got in the Groundlings. I i do the graphics for if i do the graphics for free will you let me join the company and that's how we got in the groundlings do they i wonder if those graphics still exist do they they're somewhere i'm sure the groundlings have them somewhere but i remember seeing them in album covers and yeah he was a great artist and he would be going to art shows

when he wasn't performing and that was certainly beyond my scope. But anyway, he then, of course, went to do pilots. But prior to SNL, he had one more run back at the Groundlings when I was finally in the Groundlings. You auditioned for the classes and then you got in. Right. You went through the whole four years, was it? Oh, it was like three or four years. But I had one six-month period where Phil and I were actually in four shows a week together. Wow.

And that was magical because he really was incredible. And so that was once you got into really was incredible that and and so that was once you got into the company who else was there my posse you know i was there for so long it took me it took me so long to like get out of there and i say that with all love and respect because all my friends passed me by and it was really hard i mean everybody you know john lovitz was there for like six months and then got plucked for snl and you know Lisa Kudrow and Julia Sweeney and I auditioned for Lorne Michaels on the same night and then Julia got picked and then she was off to SNL land and you know a lot everybody I started out with just was getting jobs and getting jobs no you weren't at all I was temping honey I was

a Kelly girl were you bitter yes and Yes. And angry? It was hard. I mean, I loved these people, and then I just watched them all go on to bigger and better Did you start to see yourself as somebody who was never going to be anything but a hobbyist? Never. I never. And that's what infuriated my parents is I never had the plan B. I never went. I was supposed to be a stew or a dental hygienist.

Right. And you never thought that. Well, first of all, you're not supposed to say stew or a dental hygienist. Right. And you never thought that. Well, first of all, you're not supposed to say stew anymore. So let me stop you there. I'm okay. I'm all right. So no, I didn't do that much to their chagrin. And my parents actually paid for my grounding classes, which were like 385 bucks a pop.

But you were getting angry. Yes. And brokenhearted. Brokenhearted. I mean, first of all, Lorne Michaels in those days only came to the Groundlings like every three years. So the night that he came. Yeah. And then, you know, he chose he chose Julie Sweeney over Lisa Kudrow and myself.

And then there were other girls backstage that were furious that the three of us were even in the running. So you're backstage with your friends and they're hating that you're in the running. And then, you know, I didn't even get the job. So I'm like, OK, you can all go back to liking me for five seconds. Cause guess what? I'm a failure again. Are we cool? And it was always that, like, I was pulling for the other people, but it definitely hurt when they went on to like the great jobs, sitcom or SNL, whatever. But you did a lot of TV work. I mean, before it was slow and steady. I mean, remember my students were getting on SNL. So then- You were teaching at the Groundlings?

That was my full-time job. And it's how I actually got my scratchy voice is I would teach five days a week. All right. So you quit temping. I quit temping. And you took a gig as a teacher at the Groundlings. Yes. And I would do five classes a week for $100 a class.

You must have been out of your mind. I was out of my mind. And then I would be doing the shows on Friday and Saturday. So I'd be doing- Just to see all these young people come in and treat you like that. Like you don't want to end up like her. Sure. Well, no, no.

Actually, it was the opposite. It was like, you know, Sherry O'Terry and Will Ferrell and Chris Parnell. You taught them? And they were like, oh my gosh, you're so great. You're my teacher. You taught Will Ferrell? Yes. They were your students?

Yeah. Wow. Yeah. I mean, the list goes on. The list goes on. How about when I was a teacher and then later on I would audition for one of them because one of them would be the showrunner for Friends. Oh, my God. But they were all very nice.

It really wasn't like, I don't want to be like the sad lady. It was more like watching them go from, oh, wow, you're my teacher. You're so funny. You're so great. I hope I get moved on to the next level to like maybe they don't say hi to me on the red carpet. You know, when you lose a friend to, I call it the stratosphere. It's like, no, I don't say hi to me on the red carpet. Right. You know, when you lose a friend to, I call it the stratosphere. It's like, no, I don't know.

I've had that happen. Yeah. So there are friends that are kind of like at your level and then there are friends that are doing a little better. And then there are friends that are so famous that they can't return your call for two years. What do you make of that psychologically? You know.

Being empathetic, what do you make of that psychologically? Being empathetic, what do you make of that? Being empathetic, I actually really get it 90% of the time. In other words, the older I've gotten and the more people I've seen

come and go up and down, the more I go, you know what? I actually get that in that maelstrom, you didn't have time to call me. Yeah, it's busy. It's busy

and it's something I can't understand and I've never had that level of Lisa Kudrow at the height of Friends, Will Ferrell where he is now, et cetera. On the other hand, I also have now, as you, have now come to know so many people that are so well-known that now I don't cut them all slack. I don't give them all the fame pass. I give a lot of people the fame pass, and I don't know about you,

but I definitely give them the pass for the first couple years. Well, it's weird because you don't really know where the fame pass. I give a lot of people the fame pass. And I don't know about you, but I definitely give them the pass for like the first couple of years. Well, it's weird because you don't really know where you stand in their lives legitimately. You know, you had this time with them together and you were struggling in this and that. But what's the friendship really built on? Because a lot of times when I think they enter that stratosphere, they end up with two people they can rely on. Sometimes they're old, old friends. Yeah. And sometimes, you know, they just they don't want to be out in the world. They don't trust old friends. Yeah. And sometimes, you know, they just, they don't want to be out in the world.

They don't trust anybody anymore. Yeah. And also, as you know, sometimes the two friends they're with are, you know, the, of course, Dane Cook had the situation with his brother, which I think had to be devastating to him. Or, you know, for me, I mean, I admit it. There's a, there's a long time where I was on the road so much and filming my life on the D-list and doing specials. I've done 20 specials that I hung out with my assistant, Tiffany, more than anybody in

my life. Because you don't have any time when you're self-employed and you have that momentum going where you don't even have fucking time to meet someone for coffee. I'm going city after city. And if there's a day where you're not in an airport, the last thing you want to do is go to a bar and meet friends. Well, see, what's fascinating to me about you and after like, you know, doing the minor amount of research that I do is that I don't know that I gave you credit for the amazing sort of

persistence and accomplishment that you have and have had done. Well, I appreciate that very much because. Because you're off my radar a bit. I know. But you're definitely on other people's radar. You know, there's a lot of different radars now. That's... And we all end up going different directions.

Well, that's what we struggle with. But I mean, to me, when I first met you and I remember when you did the bit part in Pulp Fiction

and you were still running around being an actress. I mean, you did a lot of bit spots on TV shows. Is that, at what point,

like, okay, so you're doing all comedy. You're bombing on stage. Yeah. And you've decided to tell stories. You're doing Beth Lapidus' room. Right. You're trying different things. Hot cup of talk. Right. But you're doing all comedy you're bombing on stage and you've decided to tell stories you're doing beth lapidus's room you're right you're trying to talk right but you're trying everything yeah you're doing everything open mic nights anything right coffee houses bookstores my recollection of you being angry is probably true i mean i i picked that up of course

so some some some part of your will you know pushed you into this area where you sort of reinvented yourself. But I think you actually invented yourself as Kathy Griffin, what we see now. Yes. And that all happened because of what? Well, I'm just going to say it was 100% me. And I'll tell you why. Because one issue that I have with the level of bitterness that I have is one thing I've always craved desperately is I have never in my career had producerial support, network support or agency support. How about peer support?

Sometimes, sometimes. Because you were sort of like. Let me tell you, early on, I had it in spades. And I have to say that I haven't talked to Garofalo for a long time. I don't I don't think she cares for me. that I haven't talked to Garofalo for a long time. I don't think she cares for me. But I will say that at that time, whether she likes it or not, the support I got

from Margaret Cho, Janine Garofalo, Colin Quinn, Karen Kilgariff apparently doesn't like me now. But whether or not that's true, it meant everything to me that the late, great Judy Toll would say to me, keep doing your thing.

Don't try to be a joke teller. That's not what you do. Right. Keep honing whatever it is you do. And certainly Beth Lapidus letting me go on stage pretty much every Sunday. She still will. And the Groundlings saying,

okay, you can have the Groundlings Theater one night a week. To work out your shit? No, to do a hot cup of talk. Right, okay. Because I found this thing. Was that a pilot idea? No, there was a loophole

in the Groundlings bylaws that if there was an empty night at the Groundlings theater and you were an active company member you could have it for free so of course I like read through the bylaws

I was looking for any kind of a venue because I was bombing at every club but that was a talk show right no no it was stand up it was exactly like Uncabaret

and it was four comedians and we actually had a timer right and it was the show was a dollar because it was exactly like on cabaret and it was four comedians and we actually had a timer right and it was it was the show was a dollar because i was so convinced that no one would pay more to see me and janine garofalo and margaret show and chicks you know and so we made the show a dollar we made the show at the max an hour so every comedian had four comedians you put on the timer for 15 minutes. The whole audience could hear it ticking. When the bell went off,

you introduced the next comic and everybody was gone in an hour. The reason I did that was, you know, the industry showcase days, it was so hard to get industry people to come see me or the Groundlings or I was never in that crowd where like people were lining up

with deals and contracts. So I would make it so easy for people to come see us that it was a dollar, and they knew that if they came at eight, they were out the door at nine. And so I did that for years. Really? For years? Years. I did Uncabaret and Hot Cup of Talk.

But you were still just acting. I hadn't even gotten on my first sitcom, which was 1996. So we're talking like 1993, 1994, 1995. So you're still beating your head against the wall. Yes. So now the big break was the D-List show. The big break was really suddenly, Susan, here's why.

Because I was on an NBC show, arguably a horrible show. Oh, that's right. But a life-changing and really fun show. And I really, really loved everyone on the show. And it was not a good show. But it was a great job for me. So I bought my first house. And because of being on that show, I know it was not a good show but it was a great job for me so i bought my first house and because of being on that show i got my first hbo special they took me to a i had to do a

showcase at the ice house and i was like the ice house and they said the audiences there are notoriously nice and they were right yeah so chris albrecht who then ran hbo gave me my first special and it was an hour my first special was the comedy special half hours. And then I got an hour and I said to him, so, you know, I'm, I'm obviously not that polished of a comedian. Why are you giving me an hour? And he said, because you're a girl and because you're on NBC Thursday night. And I went, okay, good enough for me.

That's fine with me. I have no, that's whatever it takes to get in the door. Thank you. But oddly, it's very weird because as a guy that came out of the club comedy scene and then was part of the alternative thing, is that the judgment of alternative comedy was always exactly what you were doing. They don't have jokes. They talk.

They don't- Improvisational. Try not to do the same set twice. But the weird thing is, is I think it seems to me that you, out all of them because even cho and garofalo were club comedians you know well they have the choice just so you know i couldn't get booked in club right so they were able to and dana gould also like he would do both worlds right and uh but they came up in that i mean i mean dana definitely came up in it but you through persistence you were one of the first ones to really sort of start to build a genuine audience. Well, I started my own show, like Mickey freaking Rooney, because while Beth Lapidus was giving me stage time, which is amazing, I went, you know, the rest of the nights of the week, these other people can go and do other venues.

And then that's when Ginny Garofalo, Judy Tola and I got together. And then I said, I think I can get the Groundlings one night a week. And we worked on like, I think Judy did a flyer from, you know, Kinko's. Right. And that's how we started Hot Cup of Talk. So at least it gave me two nights a week where I could do 15. So I would do on cabaret as much as Beth and her husband Greg would let me. And then I could do Hot Cup of Talk where it was my show.

So it was me and three other people. I only had to book three other people. The Growlings was a well-known place. And then I consciously chose people that weren't comedians to join us. Like one night, Lisa Kudrow did 15 minutes, and she's never done stand-up. One night, Quentin Tarantino did 15 minutes, and he's obviously never done stand-up. Are you still friends with him? I don't see him a lot.

But once again, I think of him as early on like a champion of mine and someone who was like, there's something about this girl I like. But ultimately, you didn't go that direction. No, I really love what I do more than anything. But how did my life on the D-List happen? Oh, because I was supposed to have a very expensive, fancy, Seinfeld-esque four-camera sitcom, and then the bottom fell out. So what happened was,

after Hot Cup of Talk, I then got on Sunday Susan for four years. When that ended, I was told by everybody, like, you're going to get your own show. I had meetings with everybody. Then none of it happened. So I had a year of

sleeping till one o'clock, watching Oprah. Depressed, bitter? Depressed, bitter, ice cream and Oprah. And thinking, what the fuck am I going to do? What the fuck? Everybody said I was going to be hooked up. My next show is just right around the corner. Nothing. Crickets. Why do you think that was? It was everything from people thought I couldn't drive a show or be a co-star of a show. I remember one time in a meeting with an executive, him saying, you know, we'd love to pair you with somebody, another girl who's really, really funny, like a Carmen Electra. Now, I like Carmen Electra. She's a nice girl.

She did my talk show. Yeah. I'm just saying, when they said that, I thought they were going to say, you and Jeanne Garofalo are going to have a buddy cop show or something. I'm just saying. So I would have meetings when they would- They wanted you to be the brassy sidekick. But they would say things like, we want to put you with another comedian like Lara Flynn Boyle. Yeah. And I'm sitting there going like, I love Twin Peaks.

I wouldn't say Lara Flynn Boyle is a comedian. Right. So it just never happened because they didn't quite know what to do with me. And then I- You got money at this point? Yeah, I got enough money where I can think about it a little bit. But I have no- The agencies are like, fuck her.

Nobody wants- Yeah, and when they cut you loose, you're done. Oh, I was done. I was so done. So then I came up with an idea. I called my standup agent, who I've been with since like 1994, who's a good dude, Steve Levine at ICM. And I called him up and I said, what is the worst time slot at the Laugh Factory? And he said, why?

And I said, well, I've never had a good set at the store or the improv, but I've never really played the Laugh Factory. Right. And he said, I don't know, Wednesdays at 10 p.m. So I said, will you call Jamie Masada and ask if I can have Wednesdays at 10 p.m. and he can take the door and the drinks and I'll do it for free? And he said, I guess so.

And I had to sell them on that. Right. So I had to then talk to Jamie and say, what's your top, he said, okay, Wednesdays at 10, it's hard to get people to come in. Right. I said, I'll take it. Were you just trying to beat yourself up?

No, I wanted anywhere where I could stand on stage and do what I do. And so being a promotional machine, I already was able to get on some talk shows because of being on an NBC show. But I was also literally with my former assistant, Jessica, standing in Hollywood and Highland, handing out flyers and saying, hi, it's me, Kathy Griffin from television. Would you like to come see me do stand up? And then that's really what turned things around for me is I started doing, I would pick a month, a month that had five. So if there was a month that had five Mondays, I would do, but maybe the next month would have five Tuesdays. Right. So I would do five weeks in a row at the Laugh Factory. And then luckily, it got some traction.

And within about three weeks, there was a line around the block. And then, as you know- And how did your act change, though? Is that when you cut loose? Every week was different. But did you tonally change? Was it a take no prisoners, no holds barred? Yes.

Did you do something different? Were you like, fuck it, it's all coming out now? Fuck it, no, who cares? I'm at a little comedy club. This is before people are taping things with their cell phones. I would actually open the show

with a tape I had, a VHS tape that I operated myself from the upstairs at the Laugh Factory. Yeah. And I would pause it and make funny comments. So my opener was I would show a tape from Mariah Carey on Cribs being crazy. So the tape, the audience would laugh

because they see Mariah Carey and they know it's funny. And then I would pause it and I would make a comment. So they would hear my voice. Then I would do that for maybe five minutes. And then I would do my own intro, ladies and gentlemen, and try to make it funny. You know her as Maxim's top 100 hot girls bikini model kathy griffin sure run downstairs and i was always supposed to do an hour and i always did two hours so every week i would do a new two hours was that

but were you what did you think that at that time was your was your tone different where it was the tone of somebody who'd had it with show business on some level? The tone was getting more showbiz oriented. For example, when I was doing Hot Cup of Talk, prior to being a regular on a television show, my act was more about, I'd say, kind of family and guys I was banging and stuff like that. But as I started working in Hollywood for real, that's when the whole telling tales out of school, talking smack about celebrities, being honest about who was really naughty and nice during the commercial breaks that's really how that started right once i started working with brooke shields yeah i mean i couldn't keep that stuff out of my act she was she was dating and married to andre agassi and we were

going on his jet to his house in vegas and then of course i thought his behavior was odd and so later when he released his book uh close i believe it's called yeah he confessed that he was doing crystal meth during that period and so I would be going on stage going you know I went to Andre Agassi's house this weekend and he sure is energetic like I didn't even know and so then Brooke would be mad at me and she'd say you can't talk about Andre in your act and I'd say I'll try not to and then I'd hit the stage and I couldn't help myself because it was insane to me to see andre agassi on crystal meth well what what can you keep that out of your act and and this is when you were doing the laugh factory yes so and i started doing more specials then right when i just started doing like you turned

out specials every year it seems i did 20 specials i was inducted into one of them for hbo and the rest and how many for well i did two for hbo that they then sold to comedy central and then after that i did them for bravo and now i own them and so they're kind of like everywhere like you can some of them you can you can buy some of them you um just will see on reruns and you did four comedy records i did no, gosh. I have... Well, I have six Grammy nominations. Right. So I did at least six.

I finally won this year for Best Comedy Album. Congratulations. The first woman to win since 1986, I just want to say. But as far as albums, I actually don't know the number because I wouldn't... They make the specials albums. And then you add material. Right. So the kind of fun thing about the albums is it really is the stuff that is too horrible even for bravo right is my my pride talking point now two

questions now how does one when did you start sort of kind of embracing how does one become camp yeah and it because there's only a few of you yeah and and and and how does one embrace that when did you become shameless about plastic surgery about about you know being outspoken even if they are peers of yours right i mean how does what is the appeal to the gay and lesbian community that how does that happen well i think first of all, one thing is when I was doing open mic nights, it certainly wasn't limited to comedy open mic nights. So when you're me and you have no skills and you just want to try to be funny, you don't know how. You know, I mean, I think I did the infamous waiting in line at the improv like twice. And I went, okay, this is not working.

And so I would open up the la weekly and i would see gay clubs that had open mic nights i would go to a jazz club that had an open mic night because they would let a comedian do one set so i would i was and by the way i was dragging my parents to all of these so while i'm bitching and joking about them they would either you know drive me because we all shared one toyota corolla or they would try and come and laugh and be supportive and that part of it is like very touching yeah and then once once i finally hooked up with you guys and kind of our crowd right i i thought well at least i have people to kind of sit with at the coffee house or you know i would go watch janine you know do every

set or i would just ride with marg Margaret Cho on the way to a club. Judy Toll would just take me to the comedy store and I would just watch from the back and just be happy to be in the car with her. So I was, but I always looked at you guys like, God, I just don't think I can do that. You know what I mean? I was, I can't write a joke to this day. I cannot write a setup and punchline joke to this day. It's a story with jokes weaved in. Sure. and punchline joke to this day.

It's a story with jokes weaved in. But I really love all styles. So I really enjoyed watching Judy Toll in the growlings with me, then go do a set at the store. And then I enjoyed Margaret Cho. I remember watching her headline one time at Caroline's and I had never seen her do a club. I had only seen her do alt clubs.

So I was dazzled at how she was able to translate the kind of improvisational tangential style of the alt clubs and then all of a sudden she was headlining at caroline's and then because of being on an nbc show i then started headlining at clubs so i just want you to know i went from bombing at coffee houses to then clubs calling and saying oh this girl is now we make some money right yeah but how do you like when did you did you ever see yourself early on as being this this character of you that you are now i mean at what point do you start uh well do you mean like how did the gays and i find each other well kind of but i mean also be i think it has something to do with

shamelessness yes and and i and it doesn't sound like that was always part of your story no I think when you come from a family that is all about either being shame-based or thinking they should be ashamed of something that frankly they shouldn't even be ashamed about I think that then you know the typical cliche story it makes you want to go completely the opposite and so it took you a while to do that, but I did it early on. I don't know if you remember this, but when I got liposuction in 1998, I used to show slides of the post-lipo. And people would just be practically vomiting. Because I really thought, this is very authentic. This is so horrible and gross. It's funny.

And granted, my bar for things being funny is too high for gross things being funny. And granted, my bar for things being funny is too high for gross things being funny. Right. But I mean, that's what I thought was sort of I don't want to say the norm, but I thought, well, if I had liposuction, I'm not going to lie about it. You know, so I can't just act like I had the flu for two weeks. Do you think that any of this transparency or any of this aggressive exposure of your own self was a liability to you? I mean, before you became what you are, did you ever think that people were like, no, I don't wanna, she's a little much.

I think obviously certain people just when she's a little much and then the good news is the people that were in were all in. And then that's what led to my life on the D-list. That's really what was the game changer for me. Right, but once you got the opportunity to do exactly what you wanted to do. Yeah.

More people got all in. Yes. And the gay community was extremely supportive from the beginning. Well, I think I think because the show was so populated with gay people anyway. Yeah. It's it's you know, I mean, I don't even know if I can articulate it. I mean, the gay culture and I are so intertwined and have been since I was like a little kid that it was never a conscious thing to have like gay people on my reality show or for me to be, you know, the D-List would follow me as I hosted the Gay Porn Awards.

That's shit I was doing off camera. Right. So the thing about my life on the D-List is what's really, the thing I'm really the most proud of is unlike today's quasi reality shows shows that really was a show where for six years they followed me around for six months a year hoping i would say something funny so we didn't manufacture situations i would have an offer come across my desk like do you want to host the gay porn awards and then maybe in my real life frankly maybe i would have been like i don't think so but. But I would have been thinking, well, we have filming coming up. This is a genuine offer that came through.

Let's put it on the show. So stuff like that. I performed on a gay cruise. I performed on a gay flight all the way to New Zealand. Those were job offers that came to me off season. I would just say, if it's during season, yes, that'll be a funny episode. If it's off season, I'd be like, hey, guess what? Is there any way we can hold off on this? And then we'll make it part of my life on the D-list?

Right. But I mean, the same thing was happening off camera as on camera. And I would say to Bravo every year that they didn't pick up my show because they would make me wait until the very last second. I would always say to them, you know, I'm going to do this show with or without cameras. Right. So either you can document my life on the D-list or I'm just going to keep living my life on the D-list. And you won two Emmys. Yes.

That's amazing. Incredible. It's incredible. And let me just say this. They're hard to win. They're really hard. So I get bitter about assholes that leave the Emmys early or lose them or say my kid broke them or I left them in the bathroom or I'm not sure where they are. They're fucking hard to win.

They're hard. Okay. A Grammy is very hard to win. I had five years of losing in a row. No one's even been nominated six years in a row before me. So every year I lost, I was pissed. Well, it must feel amazingly gratifying to have defined yourself on your own terms. And then the world was like okay we'll take

her right they kind of had to eventually they just sort of had no matter whoever no no matter whatever peers you might have had or what other whatever comics are going like fuck her i wasn't going away yeah that's right it was like my like my good friend share also very in the lgbt community you know share famously said you know after the hol Holocaust, there's going to be Cher and cockroaches. And I put me right in there. Cher, cockroaches, and me. So it's that shamelessness and that persistence and that. I don't have a choice.

I love how you're acting like I have a choice. There's no one has ever. No, I'm from the same. There's never been a Lorne Michaels. There's never been a network that said, oh, we're going to court you. No one's courted me. My success came in my garage. me i get it i mean i'm 50 yes and it happened four years ago but that's why i love you it's years and years and years of doing it and doing it and doing it because i didn't see any other choice no there was no other choice no i didn't know how it

was going to go down but what was it like for you watching the bros i call straight guys bros well well that well the problem with me was that either you're going to let bitterness define you, which is not appealing. That at some point you have to give in to the humbling to find where you're going to go next. You can't just expect to be angry and entitled. And you can't function from that place. I mean, at some point you must have felt like I'm fucked. Well, my whole thing was to laugh at it the whole time.

I mean, hence calling the show My Life on the D-List. Right. But there wasn't a moment there before that where you're like, it's over. No, because it was always. And look, I'm there right now. It was like, once again, you know, like we'll talk about late night. Right. So I've been I've literally heard the phrases in the last month.

A, we're not considering any females for that position. B, you're not part of the conversation. I've heard those in meetings in the last month. So when you, when you can, you know, I'm so used to hearing, you know, the chick thing and you're not part of the conversation that I just have to figure out a way to insert myself into the conversation. Is it something you want to do? Yes. I would love, you know what i would love to do i would love to bring back a show like the old tom snyder show remember he smoked a cigarette and he was bitter and rancid that's what i do

i'm hung up on costas the old bob costas with his encyclopedic memory i love the idea of of just the art of conversation sure and i feel like what the next big thing is, and this is me standing alone. I think I might be there with you. I feel that the next big thing that's going to be cool and trendy is as simple as a return to legitimacy. Because I feel like as much as I love to make fun of the Housewives and the Kardashians, I really feel that collectively, even people. Authenticity. There's something about just watching people who know what they're doing do their thing. No, absolutely.

I'm completely on board with that. But it's hard to sell because it's so pared down and simple. Well, they don't trust it. Nobody will buy it. That's right. They don't trust it. They're like, I don't, where are the bells and whistles? That's right. Right.

They don't- That's right. And I've also had people like Phil Rosenthal say, I'm going to tell you a dirty secret that no network head will ever tell you. So I'm thinking Phil Rosenthal. Sure. He's made a mint from Everybody Loves Raymond. Right.

I think Ray Romano's hilarious. Yeah. I'm going to really listen. He says, what none of these network people will tell you is that a female driven comedy is not going to sell in syndication. And I took that in and I said, you mean like I Love Lucy? Or Roseanne. Or Grace Under Fire.

Grace Under Fire. That's right. Don't listen to him. But I'm just saying these things happen to this day. And so you're right. I don't get bitter and scream at these people. You know, Ben Silverman said to me one time about 30 Rock. He kept saying it's Alec's show.

It's Alec's show. And this and this and Alec and Alec, and finally, and I don't even know Tina Fey that well. And I certainly never had Lorne Michaels doing my heavy lifting, that's for sure. I wish, I wish. But anyway, I said to him, you know, as a joke, I said, I mean, just so you know, as a viewer,

I would consider that to be Tina's show. I mean, it's sort of obviously based on her life and her experience, but I think Alec is brilliant in it. Yeah. And, you know, he denies that he said that. But I'm just saying, I think that that rolls off the tongue of people so easily that I, like you, am very much in the habit of, I'm not coming in the front door.

Right. So I'm looking for the window in the side door. Yeah. And I'm right there again today trying to figure it out. Side door, how do I get it going? Sure. Or I'll just be outside in my truck honking. But here's what I'm right there again today trying to figure it out. Side door. How do I get it going? Sure. Or I'll just be outside in my truck honking. But here's what I'm not buying.

Are you buying or have you let go of the idea? I'm sure you've had all these meetings in the last 10 years that it's all about YouTube. It's all about the web show. I never really bought anything. Okay. Thank you. Back me up. Yeah.

No, absolutely. It will always seem. Well, you get to a point where it's like you realize during those conversations that they need me more than i need them and they're not putting any money up front they did a little but any revenue not kathy griffin money well what i'm saying is look i love i think funny or die is great but the last time i checked it seems like will ferrell and adam mckay make all the money from funny or die well yeah i just don't know just like a network i think people are watching tv like that, but they're watching TV from TV like that I'd still fairly difficult to get people to do you know watch stuff that is innately on the web

Yeah you know other than cat videos or things that people send them and also the dirty little secret that I Don't know why this this should be on the cover to me of of Deadline or reporter or whatever every single day Which is TV is still the most watched medium yeah no absolutely like it's great that the guy who does the history of dance gets all those views but as far as just pound for pound viewers television is still the most watched yeah they sit down their living room they do so let me ask you this how do you feel about yourself now like in what way always like professionally personally well i mean do you are your personal life is that a struggle um i mean i know you got a new guy i know you've been through some shit

yeah i've been through some shit i mean i i'm pretty angst ridden i um you know i i can't i have that i call it the hamster wheel i have a lot of trouble sleeping i'm constantly writing in my head which i enjoy i have a stand-up comedy disorder i can't i can't stop doing stand-up i love it i don't care if it's carnegie hall or a racino right but do you can i just stop you what you have no reaction to me saying i played a racino what is it thank you you don't even know what it is and i played one two weeks ago it's a combination casino and... Racetrack? Yes. Did you do all right? Yeah, I did all right.

I probably actually got paid more than Carnegie. But the point is, I love doing stand-up so much that when my friends give me shit about, like, what are you doing playing a racino? It's like it didn't even occur to me to go, oh, that's right. I go with whatever is the market value. So I... Oh, God, I'm going to quote Jay Leno. And I know alternative comics hate him.

But he said something very helpful to me, which is he said, you know, he does all the standup and as you know, he doesn't spend the stand. He's never touched the Tonight Show. But he said that he went to his buyers at one point after 2008 and said, look, you guys have been good to me all these years. Pay me whatever you can pay me now. And I was like, wow, that's baller. Like when you can just say that. So I, you know, I don't want to say I'll work for nothing but I'm not crazy I'm not you know I only have to have the private jet and I only I only take a hundred thousand dollars a show like I'm not Kevin Hart right now but do you like I don't even know Kevin Hart I'm just assuming he gets insane money yeah well I mean you're you're definitely operating at that at that level you're at a high pay point but i mean do you feel you don't feel like you're done in any way you

don't feel like oh no are you on are you happy i'm gonna get a talk show i know that you watch like is someone like chelsea handler a nemesis of yours not at all but i am i am I am almost amused by how a woman so successful is like, whatever she's feeling with that job, like bored with it or done with it or, you know, what she say, it's a sad, sad place to live on that network. I'm just, you know, okay, so I hope you're dazzled by this. So two weeks ago, I had dinner with, wait for it, Maury Povich. Wow. So two weeks ago, I had dinner with, wait for it, Maury Povich. And I worship him. I worship the secretly loaded. Here's why. I've met Maury Povich. I've met Jerry Springer. I've had dinner with Judy Scheinlin.

I am fascinated by people that are what I call secret ballers. So I'm fascinated by what makes them tick and how they roll and why they work that way. And I had someone else, I guess I shouldn't say the person's name, but someone else who's a secret baller who's beyond loaded. And she said to me, she wasn't, I was reading those stupid Forbes lists and I called her and as a joke, I said, I know you have more money than all these people. And she said, why would I want to be on the Forbes list? What do I, what do I want my kids to get kidnapped? I don't want to be on the Forbes list. So I thought that was funny that she's so loaded and she thinks an idiot would want to be on the Forbes list. What do I want my kids to get kidnapped? I don't want to be on the Forbes list. Right. So I thought that was funny

that she's so loaded that she thinks an idiot would want to be on the Forbes list. So anyway, I said to Maury Povich and I went to two tapings of the show

which of course was hilarious and it's all theater but I said, are you having as much fun as it looks like you are? And he said, I really am

and he's 75 and I said, why? Why are you having, I mean, tell me the secret and he said, because I'm old and I's 75. And I said, why? Why are you having, I mean, tell me the secret. And he said, because I'm old. And I just totally got that.

And so when you asked me about Chelsea, I am friends with Chelsea. I respect her tremendously. I think she's hilarious. I'm just saying that at 53, I think that you have a different attitude about having a talk show and having great success. So you're telling me you know how to have fun. I'm telling you that I'm old enough to, if I had a talk show, I would be pretty freaking happy.

And when I had my talk show on Bravo and when I had my life on the D-list, I was frazzled, but I was real happy to be making people laugh. You love to work. Love it. Well, I enjoy talking to you. My pleasure. Do you feel good about it? Absolutely.

Okay, Kathy. enjoy talking to you my pleasure do you feel good about it absolutely okay kathy okay that's it that's our show as per usual go to wtfpod.com for all your wtf pod need to get the app if you don't have the app check the calendar wtf pod uh if you want to know where i'm going if you want links to any of that stuff leave a comment if you have a Facebook page which is how we do it now but you can do it right on the site what else oh let's celebrate life boomer lives We'll be right back. are groceries and we deliver those too along with your favorite restaurant food alcohol and other everyday essentials order uber eats now for alcohol you must be legal drinking age please enjoy responsibly product availability varies by region see app for details calgary is a city built by innovators innovation is in the city's dna and it's with this pedigree that bright minds and future thinking problem solvers are tackling some of the world's greatest challenges from right here in Calgary.

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