WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 543 - Martin Starr

Episode Date: October 19, 2014

Based on the characters Martin Starr played on shows like Freaks & Geeks, Party Down and Silcon Valley, Marc wasn't sure what to expect. But it turns out Martin's genuinely tranquil nature is rooted in a deep spiritual understanding and the perspective gained from a career that he nearly quit before it really got going. Plus, Jim Gaffigan stops by to talk food, which is what his new book is all about. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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The city's visionaries are turning heads around the globe across all sectors each and every day. They embody Calgary's DNA. A city that's innovative, inclusive, and creative. And they're helping put Calgary and our innovation ecosystem on the map as a place where people come to solve some of the world's greatest challenges. Calgary's on the right path forward. Take a closer look at how at calgaryeconomicdevelopment.com. Lock the gates! Alright, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers. What the fuck? With Mark Maron. All right, let's do this.

How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fucking ears? What the fucksters? What the fucking Ham Palace guards? There you go, UK. There's one for you. And it seems like that's all I'm going to do today.

Welcome to the show. I am Mark Maron. This is my show show this is wtf with mark maron that you're listening to now welcome how are you i hope your jog is going well i hope your drive is going well i hope you can live through another day in your cubicle with me saying hello to you hello well do the old marty allen hello there hello people and oh if you're lifting weights be careful you know don't don't overdo it if you're walking with your dog give him a pat on the head and say that's from mark uh look we have a we have a couple of guests i believe if i'm not mistaken jim gaffigan is going to be here today for a few minutes to talk about, you know, Gaffigan stuff, his book and whatnot. And then Martin Starr, who I talked to for an hour.

I enjoy Gaffigan. And I want you all to know that when somebody like Jim comes by to talk about his new book, it's not a paid spot. It's because, you know, Jim's got like 900 children. Well, not 900, but at least five. And he's a hilarious guy, and he's an old friend. And he wants to come by and talk a little bit and talk about his new book. I'm like, sure, buddy. Anything I can do to help you maintain this incredibly unrealistic life

you've gotten yourself into by continuing to produce children. And he loves them very much. I'm just saying you got to help a guy out. There's people who are broke. Then there's people that, you know, they got to, you know, it's like, you know, Papa Jim's never going to be able to stop. But all that aside, I always like talking to Jim. And he'll be by in a few minutes.

And then Martin Starr, that was an interesting conversation. Wasn't sure where that was going to go or how that was going to work out. You don't think about Martin Starr and think like, boy, that guy never stops talking. But he was great. Sweet guy. Interesting life. And there was a lot of stuff to learn about him and to put some other things together about some of the shows that he was involved with, like Freaks and Geeks and Party Down lot of stuff to uh to to learn about him and to you know put some some other things together about

some of uh the shows that he was involved with like freaks and geeks and party down and other things and where he went and what he's up to now with silicon valley but it was uh he was an intense guy and i really liked talking to him he asked me to do something with him and i i didn't i didn't follow it up on that so maybe i should call him i don't have to do it right now but uh but perhaps i should do that soon hey you know um it's weird i talk to people about jury do like i get i get summoned for jury duty and i freak out i'm like i what i got to be on the road i got it i got work my work it seems to me that maybe maybe i'm mistaken but it seems to me when the original idea of jury duty was put together, they anticipated people primarily worked in town.

A lot of times my work is not about town. A lot of times there's a lot of things in the balance. There's scheduling and stuff. And I freak out. It's the last thing I want to do. But there's part of me that really wants to do it. The one time that I called in to serve, it was December, and there was just no trials going on. So I got off then, but I was sort of ready to do it.

But this time, you do get a few postponements when you're in the racket I'm in. Maybe everybody does. I don't want to say I'm special. So I just got the summons, and I freak out. And I say to say to my friends, like, what do you guys do with this jury thing? And everybody I talk to is like, man, I just don't respond to it. I'm like, but you could you're you're a bad American. You're a shitty American. You just don't respond to it.

You just leave them hanging. So they just shoot these summons out into the wilderness, hoping they'll get somebody. And I think that's true. I think they're like relatively desperate for people to show up but i do feel it's my responsibility but not unlike many responsibilities in my life i'd like to you know push it down the road a piece until i got no choice and then i will do it so uh so well i'll let you know how that goes i'm still ebola, which I'm happy to report. I hope everybody else is doing as well.

Again, I know it's been a tough few days for you self-centered people with mild flu-like symptoms and the people that are in real trouble or real panic. I'm sorry you're going through that. But as far as I know, I'm still Ebola-free going on 51 years. So Jimmy is in town jim gaffigan was here and he's like he said uh why don't we talk for a while and i'm like all right so we talked for like an hour and a half and i told him it's going to be a while before i get that up and uh he said i got a book coming out. And I'm like, all right, well, why don't we talk specifically about the book and about the incredible weight. Not that he's chubby, but I just mean like he's got, he's a worker, man. He is definitely a worker.

Jim Gaffigan's book, Food, A Love Story, comes out tomorrow, October 21st. And we chatted for a bit. So let's go to me and Jim Gaffigan and chat. You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs and mozzarella balls, yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats, get almost, almost anything.

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courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on saturday march 9th at 5 p.m in rock city at torontorock.com jim thank you like it's it's nice of you to come by but but I got to say that it's weird that you're going door to door with the book. Well, you know, I just think this is an important community out here. But it's not even, it's just out today, and shouldn't you be doing something else? I mean, I understand that you-

No, no, I'm also giving WTF stickers. Well, okay. Well, thank you for doing that. It's like Food A Love Story and WTF stickers and also Stamps.com. You had to write this book. Stamps.com. Thank you. Stamps would be very happy.

That's, what is my code? Stamps.com, code WTF. Mary, WTF. Are you using Stamps.com? Well, ever since I started listening to your podcast. All right, all right. You know, there's two episodes that are dropped every week and it's pretty impressive. Well, thank you but that now the

book like i kind of make fun of you sometimes because uh you know when people go i go gaffigan's great he's one of the best comics working you know but he talks primarily about food yes and uh but you it's it's funny oh well thanks well you know it's it's we all eat i think we do all eat and i think there's something about uh the topic of food where I just stumbled into it. I mean, look, you start off doing stand-up and you try on different kind of personas. Right. And you eventually just go back to the persona you had. Right.

Right. But there was a moment where I was angry. I was smoking a cigarette. Oh, yeah. I was more like a tell. And I was energetic. You used to smoke. That's right.

Yeah. And so then I came back to this guy who's just kind of this, he romanticizes laziness and the id, what I want. Yeah. And what I found with food is I could talk about food and there wouldn't be any grimace in the audience of like, I don't agree with this premise. I find that with cats.

It's bothering me. But you can talk about animals and you're not going to have, everyone's going to be like, oh. Oh, you know, it's interesting. I talk, I make a reference to saying that I'm a cat lover, right? Yeah. And I can feel some of the dog lovers going, all right, I guess we'll let it go. Yeah, yeah.

But the thing with food is, even if somebody is, you know is a longshoreman or they eat lobster every night, they don't care if I don't like lobster. It's just a vehicle for jokes. Do you like lobster? No, I don't. It's just bug meat. Because there's not a nickel's worth of difference between that and a scorpion. No, I get it. What about shrimp?

Nothing? That's a cockroach. Yeah, yeah i know so you really feel that way peel and eat yeah that's a cockroach okay yeah but so but you don't like the flavor i mean i'll yeah i'll eat it because i'm a pig i like butter i like cocktail sauce you dip anything in cocktail so you're pretty good so it's but you know the food thing it's getting to the point where, you know, I want, maybe this will be the end of this chapter. What are you talking about? I mean, this book is 330 pages. It's like I've covered every topic of food. So you're saying you're retiring the food premise?

I'm going Garth Brooks from food. Really? No, no. Of course not. What the hell would you talk about? Laz Food. Really? No, no. Of course not. What the hell would you talk about? Laziness. And your kids? Sleep.

You don't do much about your kids, do you? I try and keep it to a minimum. Really? Yeah. Why? Because you thought maybe it'd be hard to find a new angle, or are you just protecting them? No, I'm protecting the audience.

I was that 26-year-old in the audience watching comedians talk about their wife or husband and kids, and I was like, I don't want to hear it. Sometimes they need to hear it to learn. So I'll do like five minutes in a special about my wife and kids. But other than that, it's like... Really? But that's odd because like, it's okay. Romanticizing laziness, food, lack, food. I mean, I do.

Lack of exercise. Lack of exercise. Hot Pockets is six minutes. And you'd think that like when I talk to people, they're like, it's your only joke. You know, some people think that. That's what landed. What are you going to do? Hot Pockets was the culture's gateway to you.

It was a blessing. Yeah. And a curse. Right. Is that in the book, the Hot Pockets? Yes, that's the name of the chapter, Blessing and Curse. It is? Yes.

About the Hot Pockets bit. Yeah, you know I was on CNN on Veterans Day talking about veterans' rights. Yeah. And on the icon below, Doug Stanhope sent me this picture. I think it was Doug. No, it was somebody else. Yeah. And my name was listed as Jim, quote, Hot Pockets, unquote, Gaffigan.

That's how it was listed when I was talking about veterans' rights. So it's like there's a blessing and a curse, right? Right. But do you still get, do people still call it out at the show? Oh, yeah, absolutely. Do you do it? Yeah, I do it as an encore at the end. I don't care.

They love it. Well, you know, I'll see because, you know, I'll look at my audience, and sometimes there will be, you know, a 10-year-old in the audience, in the front row, and he's just sitting there, and, you know, I can talk about- Waiting for it? I can talk about weddings. He's like, I don't know what you're talking about. Right.

But when I get to Hot Pockets at the end, it's all been worth it for him. Doing it for the kids. No, well, you know, some of it is, it's just, you know, you have a show with a beginning, a middle, and an end. Sure. And there's a little bit of like, let's clean it up at the end. But I think that you're selling yourself short on the idea of exploring your personal life, even if it's with kids, because I think that it makes an impact on young people.

Because if something is funny, it's funny. Like, even when I was a kid, I'd see older guys talk about their wives, and you'd still get a kick out of it and you know somehow or another it's going to i agree with you i agree with you yeah but there there is something about um you know you got to manage what you're you know you can't just in my belief you can't just make it kind of like and this is what i think is interesting right it. It has to be, you know, a show. There has to be, like, I have some jokes that I love that work in Brooklyn. Right. Like, I have like 10 pages of New York City jokes that maybe work on Long Island.

Right. But, you know. The Bell House. Sure. I love doing them at the Bell House. But they're not going out to. They're not going anywhere. They can't even, you know, I Bell House. Sure. I love doing them at the Bell House. But they're not going out to. They're not going anywhere. They can't even, you know, I can do it maybe in the East Village.

Yeah. Not Ohio, though. No. No. No. And they're not subway jokes. But this book will speak to everybody because it's about food. And there is a chapter in there about your struggle with the blessing and the curse of

the Hot Pockets bit. Yes. And your struggle with food in general. Yeah. I would say, yeah. There's, I mean, it's not kind of like, I'm gonna change my life. It's like, I like to eat. It's a celebration.

Yeah, like, I write, you know, I wrote it with my wife and she was like, you should have a disclaimer at the end saying that you know that these thoughts are wrong. Did you put that in there? No, I didn't do that. You don't feel it's wrong. Because, look, we're all grownups here.

We know we're not supposed to have a Big Mac every day. I do, but you're not supposed to. Do you know what I mean? I do know what you mean. I mean, look, I'm the guy who gave you a coupon for a free pint of Ben & Jerry's. That's right, and I'm the guy who took it. Yeah. And put it in his pocket so he wouldn't lose it.

Yeah, you bet you won't. So. All right, well, good luck with the book, man. i'm glad it's out now thanks so much yep i enjoy jim i enjoy him coming by i liked i like that i i like i like seeing him he's one of those guys that i you know was was around i was around when he started and you know we've known each I've seen him through a lot of different weights and a lot of different. I've seen him, you know, gradually. I remember Jim with hair. There's, you know, it was nice to see him.

Oh, yeah. You know what I did is I watched this new. Someone sent me, you know, people send me shit. And let me tell you something. I appreciate everything you send me. If you're sending me records and all that stuff, books, whatever it is, I appreciate it. It's gotten to a point where I don't know exactly how to thank everybody. I'm not always great at following up on email.

Sometimes if I like music, I'll tweet about the music if I like it. I do generally listen to almost all the music that I get, and I do browse through the books, and I do read the letters that you send and I appreciate it and it makes me feel good and I'm glad that you guys enjoy the show and I'm also glad that you feel like you can get stuff to me and I'm glad that you think that I'm going to love it and I'm going to say something about it on the podcast or tweet it. That's the gamble though really. You're rolling the dice with that and I think you know that. And I also want to tell you that sometimes I don't have room for everything. So if the stuff doesn't stick or I don't say I love it or I want this around or I'm done giving it the shake it deserves, it will enter the ecosystem.

It will enter the book system. It will enter the used record system. Just know that I'm not running a warehouse here. I might need to open one because i am a bit of a pack rat but someone sent me this looking for johnny the legend of johnny thunders it's a documentary uh about johnny thunders the guitar player for the new york dolls and the heartbreakers who i knew very little about but always fucking loved his tone and it is a fucking brutal story man it's uh it's it's brutal in the

sense that you know he's a victim of himself you know drug addiction is is fucking mind-blowing but what what there was a sweetness to this guy man it's just holy fuck there are some days where i am so grateful that i didn't get strung out on dope and that I didn't, you know, continue using drugs and that, you know, that I have a daily reprieve from this shit. But I, but on another level, I'm, I'm now becoming this guy and, you know, this is, I'm not proud of this, but I can't, I can't, I'm traveling with a thermos of coffee now. Like I have to have a thermos of coffee in my car at all times. Granted, not the worst addiction in the world, but it's a little fucked up because i don't know if i'm getting the buzz i used to i got the thermos of coffee i got my nicotine lozenges which i think i've had it i think they're fucking up my body and i've had this conversation with you guys before

you know that i i want i have the desire to kick but it's the same shit it ain't heroin but man i am definitely in i'll kick tomorrow mode traveling around with my thermos of coffee doing speed balls of nicotine lozenges and fucking coffee crashing out at three because i can't keep my head up i am on a drug cycle with this shit and i'm not in denial about it obviously it's relatively manageable it's not ruining my life but come on man a thermos of coffee i'm leaving for the comedy store at 8 at night to do a show with a fucking thermos full of coffee, and I'm still going to sleep at night. It's crazy. I'm not Johnny Thunders, okay?

But, you know, I'm a little strung out, and I enjoyed that documentary. I'd like to thank whoever the hell sent it to me. I don't even know if it's out yet, but it was good, man. If you like that period of music, that pre-punk New York thing and how the impact he had on punk music and just his fucking tone on that Gibson Les Paul Jr., man.

Just spectacular. Let me give you a monkey report. I couldn't be more thrilled that my cat is doing well. He's not only doing well, he's like back to his like excited self. He's running around. He does this thing in the hallway where he does sort of this bobsled move or he runs down the hallway. And when he turns the corner, he runs up the wall a bit and then down. He's just all full of juice. And I'll tell you what I did, man. I just laid off him. I didn't give him the second run of antibiotics because I thought he was spent. And, you know, when he got sick and he started puking and I thought,

and he was deathly lethargic, uh, you know, I went away for the weekend. I had my friend watch him. We come back and, uh, you know, I came back and, you know, he was still kind of fucked up and I was nervous, but now I got him on this urinary tract food and, uh, and I'm very diligent about giving him the, you know, the wet food him the wet food and about giving him some love. And the guy is all full of the beans. He's back. He's back. Monkey's back.

Thank fucking God. Pow. I just shit my pants. Just coffee.coop. Available at WTFpod.com. If you get the WTF blend, I get a little on the back end. That's a classic. It's a classic plug.

All right, look, this interview with Martin Starr was very moving to me, and it was nice to get to know him. So I hope you enjoy it as well. Martin Starr and me talking. Where do you live? I live here. Yeah. In Westwood.

Oh, you do? In Westwood? Yeah. I don't think I've ever had anyone in here who's lived in Westwood. Now you have. It's a big day. Yeah. That's just where you settled in Westwood?

You're like... Just the beginning of the new barriers we're about to break. I grew up in Los Angeles. day. Yeah. And that's just where you settled in Westwood? You're like... Just the beginning of the new barriers we're about to break. I grew up in Los Angeles. Yeah. Yeah. But where in Los Angeles? I was born at Santa Monica Hospital, St. John's. So you're always here?

I've always... I lived in Florida for one year, which was a terrible year of my life. That sounds like a good place to start. What year was that? I was 15. I had bought a dog in Los Angeles two months before we left. That was like a pit bull. Was that after Freaks and Geeks?

Oh, way before. Well, not way before, but a year and a half. Your whole family moved to Florida? Just my dad and I. Oh. Yeah. Right after the divorce, or how'd that work? Divorce was when I was four.

Okay. So your dad, what, decides, like, we're going to Florida? Yeah. He was getting remarried. And so my stepmom is living in Florida with her family. So she had three kids. This is where it gets a little complicated. She was also my aunt.

On whose side? Your mother's? My mom and my dad are married. Yeah. And my mom's brother is also married. Okay. The two people not in that family of my mother and her brother get married to each other. So your father and, I get it.

So that must have caused some drama. Yeah. It was bound to. So let's go back to the dog. Okay. Well, so I just got a dog. And I think the most, it was just heartbreaking to have to leave this dog. Yeah.

I bought it off the street from a homeless man who had clearly just stolen it. Yeah. And I didn't piece that moral decision together, but I basically stole a dog for $5. $5 dog? $5 stealer. It's a $5 dog. So I bought the dog, and then I had to give it up two months later before we moved to Florida. It's a heartbreak, the heartbreak.

Yeah. It is kind of sad, though, right? It was sad, yeah. I still think about that dog. It was this beautiful white pit bull with a brown diamond on its forehead called a Casper. Okay. Really beautiful dog. And you don't know what happened to the dog?

We gave the dog to a friend, and that guy took good care of it as far as I know. You never checked back in? Yeah. I didn't really know the guy too well because we didn't know anyone that could take the dog. So it ended up being a friend of a friend. Right. Okay. So you found the dog a nice home, and then you go to Florida with your dad for the worst year of your life.

It was pretty terrible, yeah. Well, you're 14. I mean, that's a big... You're cognizant. You're awkward, you're in high school, and then you're the new kid. What part of Florida? I was 15 and Tampa, middle of Florida. Yeah.

Middle of the shaft. Familiar, yeah. The hanging flaccid dick of Florida. It's just a terrible place. So not even a nice beach. No, they're like these murky disgusting kind of waters that are warm year-round so i guess it's nice in the winter when it's 70 yeah but like in the summer when it's like 110 you don't want to be in warm water

it's gross it's like going into a bath yeah it's disgusting so what was so like it was just an awkward year miserable yeah i i mean i think we started off in the summer. One of the most memorable, terrible things that happened was I was lighting off fireworks. And perhaps this is my own karma to get myself into this place. But I was lighting off fireworks and I just noticed that my leg hurts a little bit. And I looked down and ants, red fire fire ants had been coming up i'd somehow stepped directly into a an ant pile and they um just were running up my like there was literally like just red yeah all the way up my leg oh my god up this like poncho that i was wearing it was raining a

little bit so they were just all over me and i was stripping running back to the to where we lived stripping off all my to where we lived, stripping off all my clothes and down to my underwear as I ran into the door and then stripped my underwear off and jumped into the shower immediately to take a really cold shower. Yeah. And it did not. It still didn't work. It was just so painful.

Florida. Ugh. Awful. Couldn't even enjoy the fireworks. No. How many did you get off before the ant predicament? I don't know. I think one or two.

Oh, man. The whole day ruined. It was pretty terrible. Were you by yourself? No, I was with my dad and I think my brother. So you just had a bolt? Did they tell you, go? I just ran.

I didn't know what to do. And I think my dad told me to go hop in the shower. So I just ran back. How many brothers do you got? Just you and your brother? I have three stepbrothers. Okay. Zero full-blood brothers.

You were an only child? I'm an only child for the most part, yeah. For the most part, other than the stepbrothers? Yeah, they weren't around too much. Right. But I mean, for the first 14 years, you were sort of an only child? Well, my dad had a previous marriage. So he'd been married once, then married my mom.

Before your mom. Yeah. Okay, so you had some stepbrothers from there. I have a stepbrother and two stepsisters. Wow, so six total. Mm-hmm. And they're very interesting people, beautiful, lovely people. Is that sarcasm?

No, I mean that in all genuine. That's nice. I have an interesting family, yeah. Yeah. And so what brings you back to Los Angeles? Just sort of like, fuck, Florida? Yeah. I mean, that was a big part of it, yeah.

It was like, get me the fuck out of here you can go live with mom i did yeah i came back and live with mom and her boyfriend at the time this guy frank frank good guy yeah really good guy i think he meant well really good businessman yeah he was very business-minded and even at that age because he was around when i had started working on freaks and geeks and he was kind of like pushing me to do more business-minded things with yeah with whatever um you know the product that i was selling that's kind of how he would look at it right you know and and now i understand but then i was just like i just like acting man like i don't know why you gotta make this like a thing where i'm like i'm a product but he had a he had a good head on his shoulders in that regard.

I just don't want to be, I don't know. I never really, business wasn't. Your thing? Yeah, or part of like why I do this. And when did the acting start? Well, my mom had a business that kind of revolved around acting. Which was? And she moved out here to be an actress. It was called In the Act.

out here to be an actress it was called in the act and it was uh it was a business where um casting directors and producers and directors i think as well uh would come in and share with a class of actors right that had you know paid 20 to come to this class it would share with them scenes from something they'd worked on or something they're doing now or something like that. And they would kind of like give notes afterward after a cold reading. So they were like basically cold reading workshops with producers and directors and cast and directors. Did your mother ever succeed in acting at all? Yeah. I mean, she's worked for the last, um i mean since she came out here when she

was 18 or 19 oh yeah or maybe like anything we'd know 1920 uh yeah i mean she's um she's had parts in a lot of things i mean she was in like beast master way back when uh-huh um she's been in a lot of stuff man yeah she's uh well she was in silicon valley but unfortunately for time they end up cutting her out. But hopefully at some point she'll be back. And it was totally independent of me. Oh, really? Mike Jogia had just cast her and they were like, I think we cast your mother.

And then I was really excited. So you guys are pals? Yeah. I mean, you know, I feel like every relationship is a bit of a work in progress. Ours certainly is. Yeah. But yeah, we've kind of, we've recently taken up Clippers games together a lot. Oh, yeah.

We're kind of bonding over sports. And where's your old man? My dad's in Florida. So he's just down there. He's stuck with that one. Yes. He leveled off. He did it.

Yeah. He found one. He did. So when do you actually start acting how old were you uh i think the first time i did anything officially i was young i was real young i probably was doing classes and stuff with my mom she would always like find scenes where if there was one extra person in a workshop yeah then they would do a scene with me yeah and i think those people didn't like it because i would always outshine them i would always outshine them just because oh in her workshops you mean yeah yeah yeah yeah so if i was just there if there was an odd man out then i would go and do a scene with that person and some people were kind of excited at it and other people i think were bitter and they were like this fucking kid's gonna steal all my thunder

just by virtue of being a kid yeah you're just like you have quality like you just don't care there's a nonchalance even just being there so whether you're good or not that's i think what everybody aspires to like you got to get back to that yeah totally when you're older so were you going out auditions when you're that young yeah i think i worked on a bank of america commercial nice i'd done a couple other small parts yeah yeah and you were you like a natural or what I don't know I did what did your mom teach you I mean did were you ever trained as a kid I think when I was yeah I definitely kind of got training later but that wasn't until I think it was like nine eight

nine ten I started taking a class with this uh, this guy, Kevin McDermott. Yeah. Had a place he had started called center stage LA. Yeah. And that, why that guy? I don't, I don't know how my parents had a connection to him,

but, um, I, once I started going there, I, I loved it. He was just a genuinely like compassionate person. And the way he would like throw things out in the middle of scenes sometimes,

um, emulates, or perhaps scenes sometimes um emulates or perhaps the other one emulates him but like judd i think directs a lot like that sometimes and a lot in tv uh in comedy and stuff a lot of comedy directors will just kind of like throw out ideas and he had um he kind of always did that during scenes where he would throw something out if he felt like you needed a boost or you needed some inspiration and you'd have to improvise around that yeah it was it was an improv class okay and i was really liked it because i felt like i was getting the reaction from my peers at that point that i that made me feel good right the laughs yeah yeah for the most

part and even you know because we did drama improv as well so Oh, really? Yeah. What's that like? A lot of crying. And you could do it? Yeah, yeah. But before you started doing acting, were you generally awkward? I mean, who isn't awkward? I moved around a lot, and I always saw that as an opportunity every time I moved to a new school. Because I went to way too many schools. But I always saw that as an opportunity

to like change the view of my my environment on me yeah um like how would you do that never worked well i always thought like oh i'll change i'll be different and and i'll be the cool guy now wherever i go you were gonna make that decision yeah that that you don't make that decision i found out after years of trying every school you're're like, I'm the cool guy now. No. But I also didn't know how to do it. Right. You know what I mean?

Like those guys who are cool in high school who usually grow up to be nothing. I like the emphasis on nothing. Yeah. Take that, you sons of... But like those guys don't know why they're cool. They just probably are graced with something genetically that they don't even know about, or they just don't care.

Charm and insecurity. Mm-hmm. If you're just insecure and you don't have the charm part, you're in a lot of trouble. But if you're insecure and you're charming, then the world will be your oyster. Yeah. How's that? Yeah. Is that a good theory?

Yeah. I just made it up. I don't disagree with that. I mean, I think those are two qualities that mesh well together. Charm and oyster. Yeah. How's that? Yeah. Is that a good theory? Yeah. I just made it up. I don't disagree with that. I mean, I think those are two qualities that mesh well together. Charming insecurity? Yeah. Yeah, it's called Hollywood.

The entire industry is built on that. So why'd you move around so much? I mean, I know you went to Florida for a year, but you moved around within LA too? Yeah. My parents were very particular about the education that I got. Uh-huh.

So they would constantly kind of recheck the system and find a new place for me to be even though it meant pulling you out of the social structure and yeah well i mean they just didn't find the the system yeah and i went to really like you know quote prestigious schools like what um i think the first school i went to for first and second grade was uh maybe just second grade um open school this place called open school which was just like uh like a montessori school like uh well everyone just sort of like yeah it's up to you guys to decide what you want to do no it was uh it was more like um academic for smart kids like intentionally for like smart kids, like

an academics type school. Were you an academically smart kid? I didn't, I could do it. My pistons were firing in that capacity, but I didn't like it. So I didn't do the homework, but I could pass the tests. And so that's what ended up being the marker for me of being able to get into these schools. Right. It was like, get into these schools. Right. It was like I could do that.

Right. But then I wouldn't get great grades because I didn't care enough to do the homework. And that's not what drove me. Yeah. But I think I've really, like, peaked when I was in, I went to the Los Angeles County High School for the Arts. Oh, you did? Yeah, when I was, when I moved back from Florida. So then I guess you were the cool kid there, because everyone's a cool kid there, right?

Yeah, I mean, I found it to be an environment that was just free. It was so much more free. I hadn't been in a school environment where people were openly gay. Yeah. And that clearly defined how different this was. Right. From every other. Right.

Educational environment I'd been in. That struck you immediately. Yeah. And it was like, that's such a great thing that people were free here. Right. And, and open.

I mean, they were still like the constructs of the hierarchies and all those things still kind of parlayed their way into the system. Right. The social structure. But it was just a little bit different. Yeah. And what were the performing arts?

The full range? Yeah. Like music, acting. Music, theater, dancing, and visual arts. And did you start doing actual acting there? Doing plays and that kind of stuff? When I was just about to do our first year project, that would have been my first opportunity ever to do a play,

to do actual theater. I left to be a part of Freaks and Geeks. So you didn't finish the school? No, it was a really hard decision too I almost didn't do Freaks and Geeks because I love that school so much and it took me so long to like to see this

environment to like be a part of this environment was so rewarding so what grade were you in when you stopped I was in I think I only went there for half of my 11th grade year. That was all of my schooling there. So did you finish high school?

I did. I mean, kind of. I don't know. Seth and I were living together. Seth Rogen and I were living together when we were both going to like shot. I think he was like taking tests here or there. He might have even, he might not have graduated. I know for a while.

He went to the school with you? No, but he was still like doing homeschooling from Canada. Right. His school in Vancouver. Right. And I don't know if he ever, then he just kind of stopped. I know that he just didn't give a shit and stopped at some point. Because clearly this wasn't going to be a part of the way the trajectory of his life at that at that moment and it wasn't

no and and i he may have never graduated i'm not actually sure um but i went to a school where i cheated on tests like they honestly didn't care enough to really monitor anything but the choice i mean the choice to take the role over not take it though oh no that was something that i like pondered on for a while how what was the audition process on that i mean because that show is so important to so many people and so specific and your character that character of bill was uh so pivotal i mean like i talked to judd about it you know and and many of the people that i know who like that show you know that scene of you just watching television you know by yourself is like one of the most powerful uh moments of television for for a lot of people that i've talked to and that was that just that you sitting there given your environment giving your situation

and watching comedians and laughing there's a you know it was it's just a defining moment so how how was walk me through the process of how all that happened because judd and and paul were so much younger too what what was it like uh my experience my memory is um meeting with alison jones and reading for casting agent yeah oh. Oh, the one, and just a wonderful human being, like really just a sweetheart. Um, but I went in and saw her and I read for Sam and then, and then I think I read for Neil and then, uh, or maybe I read for Sam and then she brought me back in for Bill. She was like, go read this and come back. And, uh, so then I came back in and audition again. then she was like she's like that was great and

she like you could see she was like that was great i was like okay and i just left it just to me it was just kind of like another audition at that point so you had already been sort of um you accepted auditioning is not necessarily a personal rejection just part of the process of trying to do what you want to do yeah i think now it's it's a lot harder. It's funny how then it didn't matter. I also didn't think I was ever going to be an actor. I never thought that that was something that I could possibly do because it seemed so far-fetched

to succeed in that arena. And I was very aware that it wasn't just talent that it took. It took a lot of drive. And generally, success in whatever field takes so much more than a single trait or characteristic. It takes a combination of a lot of things and drive is the biggest one, I'd say, for most people.

And you didn't feel like you had that? No, I just didn't, I didn't think, like, I didn't know, I didn't trust myself. I knew that, like, within my acting class and my improv class, i felt like the man but um and i felt like i i could handle myself there but i didn't know that i could ever succeed in this business it's such a huge business right um but uh yeah but i left that audition just thinking it was another audition and uh at that point it was and then i got a call back and i and uh i think judd and

paul were there eating pizza or something um they'd just gotten lunch and they were trying to take care of everybody that was waiting in the waiting room so they they weren't like sitting and eating which a lot of people will do and just like make people wait. Right. They were like very understanding. They were just very courteous. And so I remember going in and auditioning for them and then leaving and then getting called back to go to NBC for tests. So it's interesting that you wanted to commit your life to this,

but you didn't have that much confidence in it. I just, I had confidence in my own ability. I just didn't have confidence that like this was the thing. Like I still wanted to be like a veterinarian or I was still like trying to figure out, you know, when you're 16 years old, you're not, at no point was I like, this is it. Yeah.

This is what I have to do. Right. Because you're still so unsure and awkward, or at least I was. Yeah. I never had this decision. Right. I never had this decision. I never made a decision. I kind of let my environment make that decision.

I think after Freaks and Geeks, I was like, oh, okay. So this is it. This is what I get to do. So now I just have to put everything into it. Okay. So you get cast. They tell you you're the guy. Uh-huh.

When do you meet everybody else? Well, I met everybody at the test. I met Sam Levine, and I met, I think I met Sam Levine there, and I met John Daly there, and then three other people who were testing for each of our parts as well. Relationships started to form pretty quickly. Yeah. With who? I think James and I became fast friends. Seth and I kind of became friends because we were the same age. And him and Jason kind of bonded the three.

Those three guys became pretty fast friends. And Sam and I used to hang out a lot. And then John, I'd try to hang out with a lot, but because he was two or three years younger, it was just a different environment because he couldn't necessarily used to hang out a lot and then John, I'd try to hang out with a lot but because he was two or three years younger it was just a different environment because he couldn't necessarily come and hang out the way that Sam and I had the freedom of having cars and doing what we wanted

and he was still kind of under the authoritarian household family regime he had to listen to his father and stuff like that So it's interesting, you became friends with James at first? No, I just, I remember as the series went on He had to listen to his father and stuff like that. So it's interesting. You became friends with James at first? No. I remember as the series went on, he and I, I think of the freaks, Seth and I became the closest. And then James and I became pretty close as well. We started writing.

We wrote a short together. Are you guys still buddies? I don't know him very well i don't feel like at this point isn't that weird yeah it is a it is a little weird yeah there's um i don't know it's sometimes like those barriers are bro those bonds are broken and you don't know um where you well he seems to have taken sort of different trajectory than yeah a lot of a lot of you guys i guess are you and seth still friends oh yeah yeah yeah so james is the one that kind of went off and did whatever the hell he's gonna do well i think everybody goes off and does what what they want to do yeah um he just was tremendously

ambitious and kind of did all these things that you know i don't know that i have the desire to do well so it's interesting to me because like i, even as a guy who sort of works in show business, that my feeling is like, well, you guys all have to be friends forever. You know, you get emotionally attached to people who play roles over a period of time. Yeah. And you just make these assumptions. Like, all of them have got to still be friends. For the most part.

Yeah. So you move in with seth like during freaks and geeks just after we were 17 i think we were both 17 yeah and then pretty shortly after that i went off to do my first big movie and i was like this is it i'll do a big movie i did a tv show i did a big movie the movie will come out and it'll be hot shit it'll be gravy yeah i kind of got a big head. Which movie was it? A movie you've never seen. Uh-huh. It was called Cheats.

Yeah. It was initially called Cheaters, and then we couldn't name it that because of the Jeff Daniels TV movie of the week that came out by the same name, I think. So we changed the name. And then, I don't know. It was kind of doomed. Yeah. That it was kind of doomed that movie was kind of what was it about it was about four guys uh who cheat on tests as like a business inside the school that's what they

do and i was the guy who writes crazy small so like people would you know if you were chewing a piece of gum on that wrapper for the piece of gum would be all of the notes you needed for the test right all of the answers right there i was the guy who did that um and i also had asthma i was it was a very interesting fun so after haverchuk you were like the nerd kid uh i mean i i guess so i I mean, it would fit, I suppose. But yeah, that was a nerdy-ish character. Well, when you were doing that, the Havertruck character, like that scene, like Judd's recollection of it was that was something from his childhood. Do you remember that scene where you're just sitting there watching television?

Yeah, totally. What was your experience of doing that? Judd and one of the other writers was, they were screaming out jokes to me because that whole scene is, you know, without audio. So they were just, oh, you're just sitting there watching and they knew there was not going to be any sound. Yeah, and they were just screaming out jokes.

I was watching, I was looking at a blank screen at that point, and they were just shouting out jokes that they remembered from their childhood, and what ended up just becoming the dirtiest jokes that they could think of to try to make me laugh. Yeah.

And they succeeded. So that's the beauty of acting. That's what really happened. But within the story, it was this difficult world you were living in. And we were experiencing you having the one bit of reprieve that you get from the insanity. And what were you, like, what other things did you do? Because, like, in my mind, when you're a child actor, which you kind of were, right? Oh, for sure, yeah.

Who were you hanging out with? I mean, you're living with Seth, but what do you do for hobbies? Did you build a life for yourself? Seth and I smoked a lot of weed. Yeah. And that went well for a while. And then... It seems like Seth still smokes a lot of weed.

Seth has kept it up. He's committed. Yeah, he's built more momentum, I think. I think Snoop Dogg smokes more weed than him, but... Just by hair? Well, I asked Snoop Dogg fairly recently how much weed he smokes per day. Yeah. And he said a half ounce.

What? Well, he said it... First he said, depends what day. And I said, today. Yeah. He said a half ounce because I'm working. I said, oh, well, depends what day. And I said, today. He said, a half ounce because I'm working. I said, oh, well, how much on a regular day? An ounce and a half.

Wow. It's out of control. Yeah. I think he built up a tolerance. An ounce and a half of weed. Oh, for sure you do. Do you smoke still? No, I quit a long time ago i kind of started i had trouble sleeping

recently and so i started smoking a little bit of weed again did it help to go to sleep yeah works wonders and but what are the things you do you're a mystery to me like i was concerned i'm like i hope we can talk you know because i'm a fan but But I was like, what's his private life like? What's he up to, that guy? What do you do for fun? Well, I was raised Buddhist. Is that true? Yeah.

Why would I question that? Are you lying to me? Martin, are you lying to me? Nope. I'm not lying. What, you mean like Namiho Buddhist? Yeah. So your mom got into that in the 60s, early 70s?

Yeah, my mother and father both got into it in 1981. I was born in 82. Uh-huh. And it stuck. I mean, even though I haven't necessarily consistently practiced, it's a huge part of my life and my fundamental core. Really? Yeah.

Can you explain it to me? Will it help me? Because you seem very calm and you seem okay with yourself uh these are things i don't possess so if you were to you you do i i mean like if like what does it mean to be brought up as a buddhist i've only talked to one other one and he was you know his family is very involved in like you know you know uh kind of spreading the message of that particular form of buddhism at the time that it became popular because it was a time where it's interesting to

me that los angeles and hollywood in particular becomes like this testing grounds for things that would be assumed as cults in a way but that thing really took off i mean the the place i remember from it from it the most is in uh the hal ashby movie the last detail where uh randy quaid you know stumbles into a buddhist you know to that particular form so i was like well that must have been going on in the 70s because that's where it sort of took off here right so what does one do as a buddhist what were the things that you learned well it's fundamentally it's based on the principle that everyone is capable of becoming a buddha of achieving buddhahood in this lifetime uh-huh how close are you How close are you? I mean, it's a large goal.

Is it one of those pretend goals? Like it's just to give you hope? I do think it's possible, but it's different from, I think, the way that is um thought of and like you know you shave your head and you wear a robe and you go to the top of a mountain and you find peace in nature and away from civilization right um this counter counters that entirely in that you challenge yourself with the superficial realities of our society right and and use those to facilitate your growth and development as a human being.

Okay. So, what does Buddhahood mean? Um, I, ultimately, like a place, a place of,

uh, peace. Uh-huh. And enlightenment. Um, and respect for, uh, yourself and your environment.

Uh-huh. Um, and the ultimate goal of the organization of the, the Soka Gakkai. Mm your environment. Um, and the ultimate goal of the organization of the Soka Gakkai, um, which is initially it was the Soka Kyoku Gakkai, which meant value creation and educational society. And now it's Soka Gakkai, which is value creation society. The, the ultimate goal is, um, world peace. So it seems very simple. It seems like, you know, I should be a beauty pageant winner right now talking about world peace,

but it's really like, it's something that we should all be striving for and I feel like it's a forgotten goal as a human being on this earth. I think that's probably true. Yeah, because people have gotten very selfish. Sure. That, you know,

we live in a sort of narcissistic culture. 100%. Careerists, how do I get what I need? Yeah. How do I get to be what I want? So do you chant? I do. Yeah. Daily? I try to. Yeah. And does that help? Would you consider that meditation? Yes. And it does help a lot. Yeah. That's amazing. So like in terms of um the practice of chanting and the in the sort of you know practical elements of of of what you get from that because i i'd like to meditate but i don't so you've kind of got a mental you do tm no i don't do anything i'd like to i think it's like i'd like to sit quietly but i think if you have a chant or a mantra or something you can just do it but you

were you did it all your life mm-hmm yeah it feels very natural to me I see sometimes people who are you know new to the organization or to chanting or something their reaction to it and I realize what we're doing is weird by normal standards right but it just seems so absolutely natural to me and now when when like did you get any flack for that ever not that i remember uh-huh yeah like like except in our family um because my my mom is it comes from like a very catholic family and so I think they dislike the fact that she veered away from Catholicism and God. And the funny thing is both religions practice peace, or that's their message, and acceptance.

Specifically, you look into the depth of Catholicism, and it's about accepting other people and the differences and forgiving people. Right. And it's so funny how difficult that seems to be as when it's actually needed to put into practice. Yeah. Well, yeah. I mean, not to, you know. Shit on Catholics. Yeah.

I mean, that really wasn't my attempt. But I just thought it was funny that, you know, how difficult it was to put into practice when like that's one of the fundamental rules of the religion well i think that that i think most religions set out to to you know to be pretty sort of proactive in terms of people behaving properly and living a decent life but then the politics of the religion and the the organization of the religion and uh you know the powers that you, the people that take power within religions, uh, kind of fuck things up.

Yeah. But also with Catholicism, you get the hell business, which is a little too terrifying for me to even wrap my brain around. Yeah. Where are you raised? Jewish, conservative is Jewish,

not real with any real sense of God, um, or how to use God. Mm-hmm. Or, you know, what it it really meant it was always sort of an abstract never something practical yeah and it seems like you know in terms of what you're dealing with it there seems to be some practicality to it it's like you can get some relief from engaging in this and there's not necessarily a deity that needs to be uh placated or or or appeased yeah there doesn't seem to be any um uh punishment for uh

transgression how does buddhism deal with transgression um well i mean mistakes are a part of life and um i think is there a list of mistakes no No. I mean, it comes down to moral, karmic understanding. So you recognize in your environment how you're treated and accepting that as something that you deserve, as opposed to pointing a finger of blame at whatever is causing you this problem so you always recognize yourself as the thing that can change in any environment as opposed to trying to change your environment because that's always impossible but are you supposed to innately know what's morally improper i mean where do those lessons come from like okay yeah but but they come more through

human interaction like us talking about what is i mean you know innately what's right and wrong but let's say you're strung out on drugs and and you're like wow this is killing me and i just blew somebody for drug money yeah um but you know i'm chanting well then yeah well then the next moment every moment is a new opportunity to find yourself on a new path. So as opposed to looking back and blaming yourself for what has just happened or blaming anyone, there's no recourse for what just happened. You're now given the next moment as an opportunity to change for the better. Right. So taking that next moment as opposed to focusing on

how you've already made mistakes. Right. So that's the sort of eternal present kind of thing. Yeah. But in Buddhism, isn't there sort of a duality concept that the universe is what it is?

And what is the basic spiritual premise of the Buddhist worldview? Um, that everything is interconnected and that you, that one human being can change the world 100%, but it isn't through, it's through changing yourself. Right. So the, the constant struggle, um, is human revolution is what it's called um inside the organization um the organization now i really sound like a cult member um but the like inside my buddhist practice that yeah we refer to it as as human revolution which is just basically you know looking inside yourself and changing yourself for the better and being actual proof of the capabilities of this practice.

Wow. So do you, like, are there, do you go someplace? Yeah. Well, we used to be connected with, it's all fundamentally based on Nitran Dishonin. Mm-hmm. And he's the one that kind of pioneered this idea that everyone can become a bodhisattva that everyone is a bodhisattva of the earth and that everyone can attain buddhahood in this lifetime um and and then and at that point we were connected with the priesthood yeah and the

priests believe that in order to attain buddhahood that the normal lay people lay practitioners couldn't achieve buddhahood unless um i don't think they could achieve it at all but the priests could help them by being the inter like you know being the middleman right between them and and um god yeah and is there a god no it's it's the mystic law of cause and effect, karma. But the interconnectedness of all living things. That's the thing. So the type of Buddhism you practiced was sort of one of these, it took it from a philosophical, almost insulated and very specific idea to something that everybody could engage in.

So that was the idea. That was the transition into the type of Buddhism that you're practicing. The difference between getting in touch with the big nothing and just sitting in an enlightened state. This was sort of like, wait, well, we've got to be able to take these ideas and make them practical and applicable to everyday people. Yeah. And that's where that comes in. Yeah.

Well, it seems to be working. I feel more relaxed just talking to you. Yeah. Well, you're welcome to come to a meeting anytime you like. Really? Yeah. just talking yeah well you're welcome to come to a meeting anytime you like really yeah is that uh um do is there a an idea that you you should reach out to other people yeah i mean i think i was pushed away because i i stopped practicing for quite some time yeah i think i've kind of

been pulled back towards it part of that being my father's having kind of health issues um and so um i've been spending a lot more time with him and i've been chanting for his health um and recently yeah this is within the last six months or a year and so so you were sort of not as active and now you're more active again yeah so it's a way it were there other points in your life where there was crisis or frustration and spiritual or existential dilemma that kind of pulled you back in? Short term, yes. This feels like a new ground. I have a better foothold on it now with this. And is your father still practicing?

Yeah, 100%. Oh, yeah? Is he doing all right or um he's doing he's doing okay it's a battle man yeah it's a it's a pretty severe battle so we're in the midst of it but uh-huh but he's got a great deal of hope and determination so oh that's great yeah okay now let's talk about from you know your relationship with with judd because for me like i don't watch a lot of television like i saw party down and i was happy to see you and like i you know it it seemed like

you sort of were in this world of of of comedy that has been come that has become the dominant force in comedy the people that you were involved with from freaks and geeks you know with seth and everybody but like um but the movie thing when I saw you in Knocked Up, I was like, holy shit, oh, there he is. You know, like, where's he been? But you've been working the whole time. No, I'd had a pretty big gap, I think, in between Freaks and Geeks and then Knocked Up.

Yeah. Because Party Down came after Knocked Up. Yeah. Where, like, I got a tattoo and like decided i wasn't going to be an actor anymore and it was mostly due to not feeling um respected and encouraged by my environment i think the the people that and and and i don't i can't blame it on them because it was my decisions that put me in that position. But like my agents and shit at the time were terrible and didn't really care about me or know how to influence me. So there was a problem.

So coming out of like, so this was after Freaks and Geeks, after a couple of movies where you were sort of being typecast as this dorky kid. Yeah. And you, what what you hit a wall i yeah i definitely hit a wall what'd you get what kind of tattoo uh i got this thing the star a bleeding star yeah what's the meaning yeah um at the time anyways at the time i think it's evolved quite a bit but um at the time i'm glad it's still evolving. Yeah, it's still evolving. Uh, at the time it really just represented my, um, what I, what I didn't like about the business and what I didn't want to be consumed by, which was, um, the selfish nature, the business side of things, right? It

wasn't about what I loved about um acting or creation or storytelling it was all money driven and and uh you really had to prove yourself to be an asset to to these people and they had very specific expectations out of you yeah which were all financial like you really had to meet these expectations that didn't fit into my parameters right of desire well they they probably were kind of cornering you to be some sort of clown. Yeah, well, they just stopped working for me, to be honest. The only time I got phone calls,

and I've felt like that more often than not in my life, that that is, for some reason, my place, that I'm not, that I feel like agents oftentimes when they when they are representing me they're just fielding calls a lot of the time right as opposed to like fighting for me to be in you know movies that they're packaging or giving me opportunities that i don't necessarily have on my own i don't know if that exists anymore that type of agent

yeah maybe right i mean i know that they are packaging things but sure but there's this romantic idea that like you know he's out there working for me yeah i don't know they really they're oftentimes i wonder why 10 of my money goes to someone that and i and to be honest at the moment i really like the people that i'm with yeah i like them as human beings and i like talking to them i feel like they have a lot of wisdom when i talk about the projects that you know are on the table or something but it's it's still like i don't i don't really know where i stand or how much um i'm gaining in a given moment right or a day or so what was that a month when you got the tattoo and turned your back on it like well how did that manifest itself what was your plan?

Well, I got a job for one day as a barista. I got paid $2 to get a test. I had to go be a test barista for a day. And then that was the only job I think I've had aside from acting. And then Knocked Up came up. So it wasn't that long a period. No. And I'd kind of decided i wanted to get back into it and but how long was it before like you know when you said fuck this i

mean was it years or was it uh i think i had quit for a year so you had money saved from freaks and geeks and stuff no i went broke you did yeah now was there any part of your buddhist nature that thought like this is an opportunity uh no i think i was in like the the i was there any part of your Buddhist nature that thought, like, this is an opportunity? No, I think I was in, like, the state of hell. I was not happy at all. I was miserable for the most part. I was terribly depressed. Even through Knocked Up, through shooting that movie, I was in a pretty bad way. So how did that manifest itself?

Were you living alone? I think I was living with my mom at the time. I was 22 or 23. And whatever the case is, I'm sure that's not terribly old to be living with your parents. But I had moved out at 17. So to go back and live with my mom again was just a rancid idea. Like just such a terrible. Like you failed.

Yeah, it felt so demeaning and demoralizing. And was she supportive she was incredibly supportive she moved and concerned i imagine oh yeah yeah very very concerned but she she gave up a lot to um help me uh including selling her she had a beautiful place on the beach which is where she was going to retire and she sold that um and kind of ended up getting fucked over i remember um but then she sold that so that she could get a much bigger place a little bit further east that that we could live in together and have more space oh yeah so she was worried now were you did you worry

on medicine or did you like what what were you doing you're just like in dark place yeah and you weren't being you'd given up on the spirituality element of your life or what? I was still kind of chanting here and there, but that wasn't, I wasn't driven to do it. It's weird because it's not unusual age to go through that. But the fact that you'd had this success and that you'd had your dream sort of shattered for fairly ideological reasons. I mean, it sounds like you probably could have kept working, right? I don't know. Oh, they just hung you out to dry.

That's what it felt like, yeah. I remember calling my agent, my buddy David, David Krumholz, at the time. I talked to him on the phone. I was like, I don't feel like they're doing anything for me. I was in my car, and I was just going off to him about it, and he was giving me all this advice. And he was like, this is what you have to do.

You have to give him an ultimatum. You have to call him and you have to say, fuck this. You're fired. Either you're going to start fucking working for me or you're fired. And so after that phone call, it got me all fired up. And I called and I said basically that, either you start working for me or I don't think we should be working together anymore. I should be with someone that is going to work for me. And she was like, okay, I totally understand.

And I was like, well, like, what the fuck? Yeah. And I realized through that phone call that like, this is how she had felt for two years. But because jobs had continued to come in. Right. She was just taking free money. As opposed to telling me like, hey, I don't give a shit and I'm not working for you at all. She just kind of left me there gathering money for her based on the work that I had

gotten on my own because of my body of work at that time. That's a brutal realization. It was really hard to take that in and realize that this was just a terrible human being. But that's, in some way, the nature of being an agent. Yeah, absolutely. Fundamentally, you're just looking to make your company. This is your job to make your company as much money as you can. And so if you drop someone that's even bringing in a small amount of money, of course, you don't waste any time working for them.

But someone who's bringing in a small amount of money, it's not beneficial for you to drop them yet. Right. No, they're like, who knows what could happen? Yeah. That guy could get a call and then I could get a big payday. Yeah. Yeah. Because there's also this idea, there's a romantic idea of who they are and that they're working for you and that they represent you and that, you know, you have your shoe in the door and all that shit.

And, you know, there's something about show business, about the agent. But, you know, well, I don't know if it was the same experience, but you think like, well, these are my friends. And, you know, my best interest is, you know, they have my best interest in mind. But then there comes that day where you're like, they don't give a fuck. We're just these movable pieces. And if they can't move the piece, they don't mind just sitting with it until it's it's it's heartbreaking so you just felt stranded so now you're without an agent and you're like what the fuck yeah and your mom who has been through this i imagine before yeah must add some guidance on it i don't think i consulted her about what was going

on in my life at that point uh-huh so you're you're in the darkness for a year getting bleeding star tattoos yeah well jay were you suicidal no you were just pissed i mean uh i'd be lying if i said i've never had like a suicidal thought yeah there's a huge difference between having that thought yeah bringing it into actuality yeah one is self-pity pity and the other one is you know you mean business yeah yeah yeah so so then out of nowhere uh judd calls um well i think it you know these things start so much earlier than you're aware of right as an actor and so i think it'd been in the works for a while and perhaps it was one of the driving forces behind um you know some of the people in my life that kind of came to be like my manager now i don't i i know that this thing was happening

before he and i were together but uh i mean he's done a great job for me in a lot of ways so yeah i wouldn't hold it against him but um this thing was happening and he reached out to me and and then you know a month later i found out about knocked up you know kind of happening i think um and my agent at the time who's like this small kind of boutique agent yeah who wanted to be like a painter and you know like really kind of live this cliche like this la cliche yeah um he i remember firing him because i we had a conversation about the business side of it and i was like well i want to be more business savvy yeah if you know if i'm going to continue um doing this i just want

a better head on my shoulders so that i don't you know feel unaware um and you know blindsided yeah um at any point so i just wanted to ask as many questions and the first question was do you think we should get a lawyer and um you know just to like deal with the fine tuning contract and stuff like that and my agent at the time who who just didn't care or have a business mind, he was just like, I think this is all we're going to get. And then I talked to my manager and he was like,

I don't think it'll hurt. And I know a guy who's good who can do it, who will do it pro bono the first time around. Right. Just to prove his worth, you know? Right. So we did that

and it ended up being so crucial to my financial stability for years to come. For the knocked up contract. Yeah. Which, like, wasn't, like, it was just, like, having a precedent of getting something after the movie's released. Getting some, like, you know, getting, like, allotments of money that were predetermined. Yeah. If the movie reached certain goals. Right.

Which wasn't a tremendous amount of money. Right. Really, especially considering the, you know, that it had to reach a hundred million dollars first. Right. But like, you know, these small amounts of money meant the world to me at that point. Yeah. Because I was completely broke.

Right. So the fact that like he was just nonchalant, didn't give a shit, I ended up firing him for it. And it worked out okay, because it probably did make $100 million, didn't it? Yeah, it did. So after Knocked Up, you do Party Down. Yeah. And that was fun, right? That was amazing.

I was ready to enjoy again. And it turned everything around. Yeah. Because Knocked Up, if you think about it, you tell me me you're in this dark place and that character sort of lent itself to a certain amount of it. Well, I think it has to. I mean, my life had to bleed into that. Yeah.

Or else I wasn't being honest because it was so defining of my life at that point. Like it was in every part of the way I was living. Yeah. What, there's the darkness and the defeat and the anger? Yeah. Well, that character was, it's an odd character and was defeat and the anger? Yeah. Well, that character, it's an odd character, and it was a little bit disturbing.

Yeah. Mission accomplished. But do you, because you're known for doing comedies, but they are sort of, there's a lot of heart in them, but do you consider yourself a comic actor? I feel like I'm told it so much that I just have associated it with what I do, but I don't think that's a defining characteristic in what I bring to what I do. Yeah. I don't think it has to be comedic. So the party down that that didn't survive, that must have been pretty heartbreaking. Yeah, I mean, I'm just fucking used to it now. I mean, to be honest, it's more surprising to me that, like, right now I'm a part of something that is living up to its potential.

That, like, in all ways. Silicon Valley is a great show. Yeah, it's such an amazing experience to be supported by a network. And HBO has gone above and beyond what they need to do and they love the show. I'm a tough audience, but I really like it. And I'm in like,

you know, T.J. Miller used to bother me, but like, I got to give it to you guys. I mean, you really, and Kumail, who I know well

as a comic and, you know, T.J., I don't know that well, but he always annoyed me. And Josh Brenner's on my show. He plays my assistant on Marin and he kind of pulled out for three episodes to do my show while he was shooting Silicon Valley. So, like, I feel like I have something personal, like, not at stake, but like I would be more judgmental because I know everybody.

But like it works so fucking well. It's so funny. so fucking well it's so funny and it's so like the ensemble works and and the characters are so well defined and they seem to really uh be you know great comic characters yeah we got i mean we got really lucky too that how open mike was in the evolution of it um because i think when i first read the script i wasn't super excited about it. Why? Because there was something missing. I think also I'd talked to my friend before I'd read it and he said the same thing. So I already had that in my mind

that maybe this wasn't the best script. But I remember reading it and there are pieces there that are beautiful. But there was something in the pilot that, I mean, it's all changed yeah from when i read that pilot but um aside from what was there was most crucial is what wasn't there which like kumail and i weren't really a part of it right it was more about the two kind of main guys the guy that runs the house and thomas's character tj and uh tj and thomas which one's thomas thomas

middle ditch um oh yeah yeah right the main guy yeah um so it was really kind of about them more and the side characters in the house were just that right and then uh these girls that come up to silicon valley and this b storyline which was these girls who come up to meet rich dudes and fuck them and take their money essentially or like become but they're not even in it anymore they they yeah they unfortunately just kind of i mean even in reading that first pilot i remember feeling like this isn't like you kind of have to pick right one path right you're either following these girls or you're following these guys right because they don't even really meet up in that first pilot yeah they like barely interact a

little bit um and it's just such a different tone. And I think the pilot itself found itself. God, I hope no one feels disrespected when they listen to this. But this is just how I feel about it. The way that it evolved really embodies the protagonist. You have someone to root for, and you have this group of guys that came together by way of Mike and Dave Krinsky and Alt Shuler, like, getting on board with the evolution of it. And so, like, I wasn't a part of the initial pilot, the script, and neither was Kumail, really. And so these characters kind of evolved, and they were like, we need this group.

Right. So the group mentality kind of became a thing, and that's what it is about. Yeah. This group of really weird guys going on this journey together. Yeah. Well, the satanic element and the the crowley stuff yeah like it seems to be like it it's kind of something that you know it seems very suited to you in in the way that he's sort of like strangely emotionally disconnected but very justified in in his

philosophy like that he's countering what's probably emotional or insecurity on some level with this dark philosophy. Yeah. Which, well, how did you feel about that? Did you resonate with that? Did you have to do research for that? Did you just stick with the script?

Or what did you do? I read the Satanic Bible. Anton LaVey's book. Anton LaVey's Satanic Bible. Yeah. I haven't finished it yet. It's quite a read. But it's really interesting.

Yeah. And that's what kind of informed a lot of... Just have a shameless good time. What I brought to it, yeah. Yeah. But it's funny, also coming from this place

of almost peacefulness. Like he's just at such... like he has such confidence in himself. Yeah. And seems to be the only one that does. Yeah. And I think it comes from this place of knowing how this is how the world works. If everybody read the fucking satanic Bible, you'd also know that like giving a shit about anything is pointless. Giving a shit about anything is pointless.

That's also sort of on some level in some kind of malignant way that Buddhism speaks to some of that. Yeah. Not morally. Right. But existentially it does. Totally. Were you able to make that connection? I mean, I suppose now for sure. At the time, I think it was purely rooted in this satanic.

And are you having a good time? Oh, my God. I mean, I've been really fortunate to be a part of Freaks and Geeks, which I'm just an incredible experience top to bottom, soup to nuts. And then Party Down as well, just a great group of people. And the purpose behind both of those shows was very pure. And this as well,

like to be around, I mean, we're like a family and to be a part of something where you know that whether this goes or not, whether we are forced to be around each other or not by way of HBO picking us up

for season after season, I'll be friends with these people. These are, you know, these are lifelong friends that I've made already. That's sweet. Yeah. And how many did you do? We did eight the first season. And I believe we're doing either eight or ten the second season.

So that just got picked up and you guys are going. When do you start shooting? We start shooting in October. Well, Martin, it was great talking to you. Yeah, likewise. Time just flew right by. Good. It was fun, too.

Yeah. All right. Well, that was great. I loved getting to know that guy. And, you know, we talked a bit about me going to one of them buddhist meetings i don't what have i got to lose by doing that maybe maybe that would be it i mean it seems like you know he got a lot of clarity from it i'm always nervous so i'm always nervous about going to meetings but maybe but maybe i will i don't know yeah i mean it'd be nice to

hang out with him on that level on a spiritual level oh my god i'm so jacked i need a nap i went hiking today this seems to be coming a tradition doesn't it i don't know what i'm gonna do i don't know what i'm gonna do i think that we should all celebrate I don't want to do that rhythm. I feel like I get stuck in three chords. Maybe. That's like a little talking blues business. Isn't it? I wish I could sing some like, you know, like... Maybe I'll write a talking blues about monkey's bladder. I didn't prepare. I'm not prepared.

So I really can't do a talking blues because... Because... I didn't write anything. And that's no way to do a Talking Blues. So let's just... Let's just pretend that I've written a talking blues. And that right now I'm saying like a very important thing that kind of strings itself out

like Bob used to do. And you just keep talking and keep talking and you don't know when you're going to go back to the G and you're kind of waiting an abnormally long time for him to get back to the G and you're kind of waiting an abnormally long time for him to get back to the main verses of his talking blues and then all of a sudden you're in it. Boomer lives!

You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. Boomer lives! It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com.