WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 545 - Bill Scheft

Episode Date: October 26, 2014

Bill Scheft is one of the first people Marc ever saw perform live stand-up comedy. Now Bill is working mainly as a writer, doing jokes for David Letterman since 1991 and using his life experience to write several novels. Bill also has quite the story about the circumstances that led to him replacing Bill Hicks in an infamous late night television moment. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Lock the gates! Alright, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fucking years? What the fucksters? What the fuckadelics? How's it going?

It's Mark Maron. This is my show. Welcome to it. You're listening to WTF, the podcast. First of all, I'm doing more tripany dates, more dates at the Trip any house at the steve allen theater here in los angeles i am doing the uh october 28th november 11th and november 18th jeff tate will be opening for me uh tomorrow uh please come if you'd like to come they've been fun shows and it's eight dollars and it benefits the theater you don't know what's going to happen but i'm sure i'll make myself uncomfortable initially yesterday was football day i did not partake in that i have no problem any longer with

anybody who enjoys football knock yourself out just don't fucking judge me you know in uh you know i got tweeted i said look i hope you enjoy football i don't know how to and some guys like you hipsters none of you like football I haven't liked football my whole life. Never called myself a hipster. I'm a grown-ass man, and I don't like sports. It's not a matter of me judging you any longer, but it was just an honest tweet, and that guy's a dick. You see, the thing about it is it's all very predictable. People label people.

People put people in a box. What did I do today? I played guitar, ate some food food went and traded in some records that's some man shit i don't care what you say watching football all day well i hope your little teamie won so your life can have purpose for a few days i know i've got three new loop records and a few cheap trick records i know that happened there ain't nothing there's nothing uh weak about that and i built my cats a fucking fountain that's right fucker i got down on my hands and knees and built my cats a fountain because i was told that these fountains uh kind of uh inspire the cat to drink a bit more that

has not been the case yet i got a pretty high-end one. I'm not saying it was thousands of dollars, obviously. It was under $100, obviously. But it was a porcelain cat fountain. The idea is the running water makes it very compelling to them. They like to stick their little cat noses into the running water to feel connected to something that is genetically wired in them. Perhaps they're by the bank of a river or a creek or somewhere out in the wild the wild that's inside of their genetic loop

and their little coil that's in their every cell that says running water that means we're outdoors and we're hunting i just hunted down that half a can of wet food and killed it. And now I'm going to stick my face in the running water of this creek that's in this nice bowl that's plugged into the wall. But so far, nothing has happened other than Monkees been nervous about it. He's looked at it a couple of times. Doesn't make sense to him. Perhaps they know more than we think. more than we think perhaps they're thinking in their deeply wild genetic uh history their lineage that goes all the way back to the first cat sitting by a river maybe he's thinking like what is this asshole thinking he's doing does he think we think this is a river what a fucking

idiot this is a nice bowl with a fountain in it but uh i don't know if I'm going to drink out of it. And I know this isn't a big deal, but it is. You know, I guess that maybe football guys don't talk about this stuff. Football guys just drink freely. And have no shame about sitting on the couch watching football with their fat, hanging over their too tight pants with their team jerseys on. I'm not judging. I'm just saying their lines have been drawn between what a man is to some people you know the definitions of it i i i without tools

built a cat fountain yesterday on sunday and again i'm going to say i bought three cheap trick albums and three loop albums and i did a little work. I plugged some things in. Switched out some extension cords. Did a little of that. Played some very serious guitar on a Gibson 335. Yeah, a Gibson 335. That's a fucking man's guitar. Built in Memphis, Tennessee. I laid out some licks on a Gibson 335.

Slightly distorted. Powerful. Tennessee. I laid out some licks on a Gibson 335, slightly distorted, powerful. While you sat and watched other men play with a ball, I was making real blues music with a man's instrument plugged into a tube amplifier. You want to have a cock fight? All right, what'd you do? Had some chips? Had a few brews? Yelled at a television? Was upset or elated? Because your team won?

I sent distorted blues licks into the ether. My dick was so big in my living room that it annoyed my neighbors now watch my cat i watch my cat look confused at a fountain you know i was slightly upset by it because i wanted to like it so today on the show a man named bill chef is on i don't know if i'd expect a lot of you uh to know who he is but he is a comedian and he's a writer for Letterman and he's written several books, one of which is out now. His latest novel, Shrink Thyself,

came out a little earlier this year. You can get that wherever you get books. He's had a couple other books, I believe, out there. Also, I wanted to mention that if you want to hear other episodes about what it's like to work on The David Letterman show, you can get the app upgrade to that premium. There's episode 28 with Eddie Brill, who does the warmup for Letterman for years, did some of the comedy booking, no longer does that episode two 28 with Merrill Marco, who was there at the beginning of Letterman and dated Letterman and episode two 70 with Chris Elliott, the amazingly funny Chris Elliott, who was on the first version of the Letterman show as a recurring guest and writer. Those are all available at the WTF app.

You can get the free app and upgrade if you want to learn more about Letterman. But Scheff has been writing for The Letterman for like 15 years or more. I'm not sure. I'll talk to him about that. But outside of writing for Letterman, a couple of things. He was one of the first guys i ever really saw do comedy live he had a disposition he used to have a little cigar he had an attitude you know and now you know i'll talk to him about that and i'll talk to him about where he got that disposition but uh but what he also is known for is uh years ago and uh you comic nerds, you comedy nerds, some of you, a certain type of comedy nerd know about this.

Years ago, Bill Hicks, the last appearance he did on Letterman before he passed away was cut out. Bill Hicks did a Letterman set, and it was cut from the final broadcast, and they aired a set that bill chef did uh earlier that night on a different show even now i never heard the true story i know that david letterman made an apology to bill hicks's mother publicly and i believe aired the set in its entirety if i'm not mistaken i didn't know what happened we all assumed that he had said something to piss somebody off whether it was about abortion or about,

I can't remember. I had heard that it was censorship because of advertisers. But all I know is Bill Schecht was there. They used his set. So that kind of hung on him. He's the guy that replaced Hicks the night he got cut out of the Letterman show. Now, I'm going to ask Bill Scheft about it, and I'm going to get his angle on it,

and you guys are going to do with it what you will. But he was there, and he's going to tell me what happened from where he was sitting. He was the guy that replaced Hicks. So if you're a deep comedy nerd, or you're a Bill Hicks fan, or you're a conspiracy theorist who's got an angle on that, now you'll have another angle, I guess is what I'm saying. Is that okay? Good. I went to see Birdman. It's a very compelling flick. I think it's smarter than I even think it is. There were moments after the movie where I was like, I don't know, was that over the top or was

that actually a smart movie? And then you sort of start thinking about it deeper. You're like, holy shit, some of those actors had to act in three different ways and three different levels and it was interesting because some of it seemed a little broad and some of the characters seemed a little um you know heavy-handed but then you're starting to think like well what was the real play it all took place in the theater so what's a play what isn't a play what kind of tricks are they playing with the cinema and i and oddly the only one that isn't heavy-handed in a way is Michael Keaton, who plays this old actor who was known for this superhero he played in blockbuster movies. And it's very sort of claustrophobically and creatively shot all within the confines of a theater,

give or take a couple of exteriors at a bar and on the street. It dealt with theater versus celebrity in kids versus old people. street it dealt with uh theater versus celebrity versus in kids versus old people and it dealt with a lot of stuff but i mean edward norton's always fucking solid and michael keaton was brilliant and uh you know zach galifianakis was in it he was good everyone was good it was an interesting movie it was an interesting big movie i don't know if i love the ending you know but i'm not going to tell you what it is. But Keaton was great. And you guys know me. I am somewhat of a loner.

I've had a lot of people on this show. I've had Michael Keaton on this show, and it was a great conversation. But do I talk to Michael Keaton? No. Do I talk to anybody really who's been on this show in a regular way? Not really, except for the ones that I'm closest to, you know, close friends. But, you know, I took a chance, and I had an old email address from Michael Keaton.

I just texted, hey, man, fucking great job in the movie. Hope you're well, Mark. I did that. I'm not expecting to hear back. I just thought, but, you know, I always feel weird about that. Like, is he going to get that and go like, this is that kid from that podcast. Maybe I shouldn't have given him my email. I've never emailed him before except the one time when we were gonna do the podcast see this is why this is why i don't uh this is why i don't

i don't email this is why i'm not giving john ham a call right now this is why i mean i just so let's talk to bill chef here this is a great conversation it's one of my favorite as of late I had a great time talking to this guy Bill Sheft you can get anything you need with Uber Eats well almost

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Calgary's on the right path forward. Take a closer look how at calgaryeconomicdevelopment.com. Deft. It's weird because when, you know, I got the opportunity to take a look at the book, and they said Bill Sheft, and he wanted to do the show, and you hold, there's a part of my brain, you have a solid place in my brain. Do you know why? I think I do. Really?

Well, because I think I was one of the first people you saw do stand-up. That's right. Is there any way that you were involved or emceed that event that HBO did, Catch a Rising Star, live on campus? No, campus comedy. Campus comedy. At Tufts University. That was where the show was. Where they taped.

Right. And I didn't emceed. Where they taped. Right. And I didn't emcee. Well, I did a lot of, before they got the show, they had all these talent shows at all these colleges. Right, I auditioned. Okay, and where did you audition?

Did you audition in the basement somewhere? Oh, no, I auditioned first in a college classroom. That's right. And then we did a showcase at the Comedy Connection in Boston. Okay. But I believe you didn't emcee the night. You weren't on camera, I guess, but you didn't. No, I did the warm-up for Joe Piscopo, and there were two tapings at Tufts.

And there's two things that I remember about that night, is that my parents were there, and it was a huge. Oh, Piscopo hosted. Piscopo hosted. And there were two tapings. about that night is that my parents were there and it was a huge uh oh episcopal hosted and there were two tapings so i was warming up and right before i went on i overheard my father say to a complete stranger if i gotta go to another fucking stand-up show that's it and now i gotta go on and i did and and i did really well in the warm up. And I did so well that the producers came up to me and said, Joe is going to do his own warm up for the next tape. Really? Because I had no idea that he didn't have an act.

Right. I had, you know, I just had the characters. Right. So. So that's where I am. But I probably. Yeah. But I emceed a lot of those auditions.

And I remember the one in the classroom. And I didn't remember there being, maybe that was it. I didn't remember it wasn't a show. And that's where I met Leary. Really? Because I met Leary at the auditions at Emerson. And he was like a graduate teacher. And that's when I met him for the first time.

Yeah, because the thing I remember was that, you know, you had this whole shtick in terms of, like, you were already an old man or something. You had a cigar. That's about right. You had a suit. Like, you know, you seemed to be very put together, and you sort of cut an impression.

Like, I mean, you made an impression on me. That's 83, so I was all of 26. Yeah, I mean, you had this whole thing. You're very confident, and you had your cigar, and you were swaggering around. Yeah, you got me the year I was confident. You got me that. You got me. And I would, yeah, because I'd been a sports writer, and then I became a comic,

and I still went with the same kind of outfit with the tie-down and the cigar. And whenever Jerry Seinfeld would see me at Catch a Rising Star, he would say, still trying to do that 545 to Greenwich thing, aren't you? But it was your thing, right? That was my thing. But where did you come from? Why was your father at that show at Tufts? Did you come from New England? I'm from Boston.

Oh, you do? I grew up in Boston. I grew up in, yeah, I grew up in Newton and Beverly. And my father was a businessman, and my mother was a stay-at-home narcissist. And, you know, that's what happened. Yeah, my father was a doctor and narcissist, and my mother was a stay-at-home narcissist. Yeah. That's very funny.

So you auditioned for that show. Oh, that's, wow. Before I even did stand-up, I was in college, and I talked to my buddy on the 500th episode, my buddy Steve Brill. We put an act together because we saw the signs around the school. We went and put this act together. It was mostly sketches. It wasn't really stand-up.

There was no real team dynamic. We didn't have any structure around the way we interacted, but we did it. Right. And I had the stand-up bug early on, and I wanted to do stand-up, and I went down to catch, and I saw you a couple other times, and you were always like, that's that guy, the guy with the cigar from the thing. The guy that's much older than he actually is, yeah. Yeah, but you were just like, yeah, it's so much.

Yeah, I guess that was my shtick. I guess it was. I mean, that was my sort of outfit since birth, you know, the coat and tie and the tie down. No, I liked it. It was classic. You know, there are people that I guess they would call it branding now. But you know who was on, two things about campus comedy.

One of the people that was on that show was Jeff Dunham. Yeah. Actually made it into. When he only had one puppet? When he only had one puppet, that's right. And it's the only show in the history of HBO that they never repeated. Really? I don't think they ever showed it more than once or twice.

Was that bad? It was just, it was kind of nothing. It wasn't like the Young Comedian special. It was a big idea, I think. I think they thought maybe they could franchise it. Like, you know, this is it, never ending. You know, we could just go audition kids all day long. Right.

Right. it like you know this is it never ending you know we could just go audition kids all day long right yeah right and it at the end of the day and i think that one of the uh you know and one of the people on the campus comedy show was a woman that was in my class at harvard so she was at least 27 or 28 wait wait let me try and i think i better andrea michaels is right how hilarious is that is that great how the fuck could i remember that i don't know wow that's unbelievable let's go for a thousand now that is unbelievable yeah well i remember because she was attractive and she had this odd act and she did slightly provocative stuff right she was she had one joke i'm trying to remember now because i remember there was one joke she did i thought it was really funny it was kind of sexual i remember one joke that of hers where she um uh that her breasts are different size and so when she wears her uh university of minnesota t-shirt it looks like

minnesota yeah all right that was right but uh yeah so wait so you grew up in newton right and you went to harvard yes i did well what what was your life like what'd your dad do my dad was uh my dad was in the shoe business shoes yeah for a while and then he was in the health and beauty aids business so he's uh what he had uh was it not a salesman but no he was you know a guy it was one of those things which dad what are we supposed to put down where it says occupied just put executive it was one of those guys. Too hard to explain. Yeah.

And like I said, you know, my mom, you know, a brilliant woman, was a great golfer and a stay-at-home narcissist. And they had six kids. I was the fifth of six. A large Jewish family. Never enough guilt to go around. How was that? I don't know. And my parents were much more interested in having the children rather than raising them. But six, that's crazy.

Yeah, it is crazy. If you're not Orthodox. No, it doesn't. Yeah. And it makes no sense. And, you know, liberal Jews, I used to do a line in my act that, you know, we the 10 commandments but we believed you could pick five and all that yeah but i notice it like on your uh wiki page or even in maybe it's on your uh on your uh your website philchef.com you don't list comic i was a comic for 13 years yeah well i think well i do on in the bio i say i was a comic for 13

years and um and i'm uh i'm very proud that i was a comic i still feel like i'm uh a comic in many in many ways and i was lucky enough to be a comic at the best time to be a comic when the boom happened and you could really make a living i mean and you know my wife adrian told me we were out on the road 30 weeks a year and yes right when how's she doing she's doing great thank you she was uh she last year was a tough year but she's great now she's uh oh good yeah she's great i remember her yeah well that was so are you the only show business kid in your family yes what they all they all end up doing uh well my uh my oldest brother is a professor my of what he of uh of uh journalism

and literature down at North Carolina Central University. And my oldest sister is an occupational therapist. My other sister is a teacher. My other sister is a doctor. She's a clinical psychiatrist. And my younger brother went to Harvard after me. And he's the guy, if you're a police officer in Massachusetts, if you want to pass the serge sergeant's exam you take his class he uh he lectures cops and uh much funnier than i am and he's got the uh because he's got the shtick i just had the words uh my brother always had the shtick but uh my funny family well yeah it sounds

like that real liberal jews everyone went into reasonable helpful occupation yeah absolutely not a businessman in the bunch no and my because my mother believed that you did service. And now I don't know how telling jokes at a Chinese restaurant is doing service. It is. So you're a sports fan, which I am not. Yeah, I was a sports writer for a while, and that's where I started. So your parents were supportive. You got into Harvard.

Did your dad go to Harvard? No, my dad went to Yale. Right. My mom went to Harvard. So you had some to Harvard? No, my dad went to Yale. Right. My mom went to Harvard. So you had some pedigree there. A little bit. Yeah. A little bit.

And that helps. I did the whole deal. I went to Deerfield Academy, which is an all-boys prep school. Where's that one in New Hampshire? That's in Deerfield, Massachusetts. Massachusetts? Right by Springfield. So it's not Exeter.

It's not the other one, St. whatever. St. Paul? St. Paul's. My brother went to St. Paul's. My older brother went to Andover. And my older brother was- Isn't Exeter one? Yeah.

The two, the big three are Andover, Exeter, and Deerfield. Those are the big three. And then you got the other places. Right. Those are the ones that are sort of the- Right. Preparing you for your place in the aristocracy. Right.

Now, when George Bush was not elected the first time in 2000. The second one. The first, yeah. I said to my older brother, hey, how about your old stickball commissioner is now president of the United States? He said, what are you talking about? I said, George Bush, he was the stickball commissioner at Andover when you were a freshman. He was a senior. He said, no.

He said, you're wrong. commissioner at andover when you were a freshman he was a senior he said no he said you're wrong he said the stickball commissioner when i was a freshman was this asshole from texas oh yeah right right same guy i don't know what's weirder about that story that he didn't remember or that there's a stickball commissioner yeah well that fuck is a stickball commissioner they had a stickball league at andover for all the you know all that this is what the elite is doing in prep school back then in the 60s taking a game that is notorious for coming from the streets out of lack of a field right and appropriating it for their now waspy needs right it's yeah it's this sort of irony look at us slumming it's that whole yeah we don't have

the equipment right what did they not play it on one of the two fields at the school did they play it in the parking lot yeah they uh uh you know we played it and you would play it sort of we played it and we used sort of this transformer for the backstop it you know you would play it on some weird configuration or you know yeah so okay so you go to harvard you were in english no i majored in latin because i thought the church was going to come back and um come on and uh you were just trying to pass no i swear i could because i you know i majored in classics i thought that you know i was going to be uh i don't know a latin teacher or pharmacist or whatever you're going to be with a latin degree and and then um did it help you at

all did you read the classics it's oh absolutely i read everything and it's the best training for a writer i believe because it teaches you the value of a word uh-huh and you you're reading you know i believe the greatest literature in the earliest form i learned so much but latin's like the root of most language correct and i i majored in, and I, you know, there's only one thing you can do is be a teacher. And I came from a family of teachers. I said, well, maybe I'll do that. Your mother was a teacher? No, no.

My mother did a lot of volunteer work in politics and, you know, worked in the Jack Kennedy congressional campaign. Oh, yeah? And I said, well, what was that like? He had the filthiest apartment I've ever seen. You know, really? That's what we get? Yeah. Yeah.

But there's a lot of my mom in this book. And also, she's 91, but I have taken the liberty of writing her eulogy. In the book. In the book. In the book. In Shrink Thyself. Yeah, and there's a lot of stuff about her. She's a tremendous character. I once said to her,

Mom, how about a little unconditional love? And she said to me, I'll show you unconditional love when you've earned it, which is phenomenal. You really can't do any better than that. And another, I don't have that. The other one I have in the book was my younger brother came home one night and he said, listen, I've decided I'm going to run for office one day.

Yeah. And my mother said, why are you going to do that? So you can win and run an employment agency? And that was it. He never, that was the end of it. So she had gotten that cynical about politics at some point. Yes yeah that that uh yeah i think so but i mean she was still uh interested and active but she was very yeah that doesn't take long yeah you know once you work within it right so yeah i majored so i majored in land but i also wrote for the for the paper at harvard the harvard

crimson was a sports writer and always loved sports. My uncle was a very famous sports writer. My uncle was Herbert Warren Wind, the dean of American golf writers. He coined the phrase Amen Corner at the Masters. He wrote for the New Yorker for years, and he was a big influence on me. Do you know him? Oh, my God. Yeah, yeah. I mean, he's the most influential man in my life, and he's the reason I'm a writer as much as anything else. So I wanted to become a sports writer. And so out of college, I worked in Albany, New York, for two years. And I don't know if you've been to Albany, but it's not some of God's best work. A sports writer for two years.

And then I quit the job and I came to New York ostensibly to become a freelance sports writer, but I couldn't make any money. And I had done stand up between the ages of 18 and 22. I'd done stand up like twice a year. You know, I was one of those guys when I was 18. We stole a faculty member's car at Deerfield and I went out to a bar in Northampton. And I always thought it was kind of something I could do as a hobby. And then I realized that I couldn't make it wasn't making any money and i said i guess i should sort of pursue this and i auditioned to catch a rising star in december of 1980 and i had and the woman that was running auditions she

thought i was funny but she thought i was a little arrogant she wasn't wrong and she wouldn't pass me it took me six months to pass audition that's that's that's still a small amount of time but relatively for me being arrogant it was very long and i think you know right but meanwhile i got even with her because i married her and that was she was oh yeah she was she used to run audition night oh that's hilarious before lewis right before before lewis before i mean uh yeah back then the mcs ran the show they put people on was belzer gone? Belzer had just left. All right, let's go back for one second.

About sports writing, relative to stand-up in some way, in my mind, when you tell me, not being a sports guy and certainly not being a golf guy, that your uncle was this well-respected golf writer. Yeah. And I'm thinking to myself, what does it take to make golf exciting? What do you learn as a sports writer? I mean, I know obviously if you're into sports, you live it, you breathe it.

I learned that from a friend of mine. It's how you feel alive. It's something that gets you out of yourself. But what is some of the tenets? Okay, well, that's easy to answer with golf because golf is something that people are passionate about whether they are good at it or not because it's something you can play your whole life. You play? I play.

I don't play. I don't play very much, and I look like a guy who doesn't play very much. I used to play a lot more, and my mother was a wonderful golfer. My father was a good golfer. My brother's a good golfer. I just don't play enough and um tell me the joy of golfing bill tell me why i mean you know because i know people who love golf like ray romano loves golf there's people john mendoza loves yeah kirk uh my friend

kirk it's just sort of like what the hell is it i know you know you're outside you walk yeah you're outside it's the well it's the the pursuit of par the fact that um you know it it plays to your most grandiose expectations about what you are as an athlete and on on on a given day you know you and tiger woods could be in a twosome together at a par three. And Tiger could hit his drive way over the green, and you could hockey it up to about 20 feet short of the green and get down in two. And it might take Tiger three to get down. And in that moment, you're better than him. So I think that that's the thing that people go.

So you can be better than the best on a good day in a moment in a moment and larry david loves i mean i mean i saw larry david have the round of his life he shot 38 on the backside at riviera and it was like a scene you know with larry you know you know how when people are out at dinner and you know straight people you know non-comics they're at at dinner and something silly will happen and people say, oh, this is just like an episode of Seinfeld. And the difference is when you're with Larry, things happen. You never know when a little plot line and Caribbean enthusiasm may break out. And I was with Larry that day and he started and all of a sudden this sort of gallery forms behind him of these gardeners and these caddies.

He's just on. And, you know, this is, hey, you know, this is David. They're going crazy. Because he was doing so well? Yeah, because they were doing, and, you know, maybe they thought. He was just on a run. Yeah, and he never, I mean, he'll tell you he never played better than that afternoon. I mean, he'll tell you he never played better than that afternoon.

But people love it. I think people love it because it's one of those things. It's such a simple game, and it's so aggravating, and you're just constantly pursuing being as good as you think you are. And then also, you can play it all year round you can play it everywhere every courses are different you can travel to play it yeah because because a tennis court is a tennis court is a tennis court either it's a basketball court is a basketball court and a baseball you know but but every golf course is different so that's the thing that's that's fast you get to scotland yeah right and that's the thing that's fascinating. Then you get to Scotland. Yeah, right. And that's what's, I think that, and so people get involved in the equipment.

They get involved in the history. They get involved in golf course art. And my uncle was incredibly generous because he would share his knowledge, every piece that he wrote. And he would write these 10,000 word essays for the New Yorker. And every piece that he wrote and he would write these 10 000 word essays for the new yorkers and every piece that he wrote and he's also my uncle is a character in my first novel the ringer yeah and uh every piece that he wrote was a history lesson was an architecture lesson it was a golf lesson uh because he would he was not like a lot of writers who kept their real knowledge to themselves well so so what it does then and what makes them great is it elevated it to an almost cultural criticism.

Correct. So like anything, like a great essay or a cultural critic, some of the sports writers have elevated it to that, to where it becomes about morality, mortality, history. Right. And my uncle, he covered every Masters from 1943 to 1988. And then he was sick in 1988. He had prostate.

So he couldn't cover the 1989 Masters. So he gets out of the hospital and I say, you want to come over and watch it with me? And this is like, you know, this is like having Virgil read you the Aeneid. So he's sitting and he knows every blade of grass at Augusta, and it's one of those things where a guy hits, and he says, that's going to come up to a little oak on the left. And there it is. And there's two things that he hated about the Masters.

He hated the 17th hole, and he hates Vern Lundquist. He hated the old CBS sports announcer who was still working, Vern Lundquist. So the first Saturday we're watching and they announce the guys. This is my favorite story about him. And we're watching TV and they're announcing,

okay, let's go down and see the course. You know, I'm Ben Wright at 15. I'm Gary McCord at 16. And I'm Vern Lundquist at 17. And my uncle says, that's a good spot for you, Vern! Screams at the TV.

But I miss him. that's a good spot for you vern screams at the tv but i miss him he's a tremendous guy just crazy smart so writing about golf then you know they it has this long history you know and it has a lot of uh it's an old game and right so you can really sort of open it up to a lot of stuff but writing about basketball baseball football right there's yeah as a sports writer you got to write about everything right correct yeah and he wrote about everything he rose a great wrote great pieces about hockey and tennis he's in the tennis hall of fame he's in the golf hall of fame he's a brilliant sports writer but golf was his game so those are big shoes to fill that you decided oh i never was no i was never going to be him but i know but you but he's the one who inspired you absolutely absolutely and he. And he was very encouraging, but nobody was happier when I got the job

on the Letterman Show than he was because he always wanted for me to be able to write jokes for somebody else. He always loved that idea. He said, it would be great if you could, you know, if Bob Hope was still alive, and he was then. He would say, if Bob Hope was still alive, it would be great if you could, you know, if Bob Hope was still alive. And he was then. But he would say, if Bob Hope was still alive, it would be great if you could write for him.

And Bob Hope was going to live for another 20 years. You could have written for Bob. Right. But I think that's interesting because he saw it from an occupational point of view. He didn't necessarily think that being a comic was a smart journey. But to be a writer, you know, to be the guy that works. But he understood that being a comic, that it had, that it had a lot to do with writing, that it had a lot to do with editing in your head,

that it had a lot to do with wordplay. But also to be successful, it had a lot to do with luck. Right. Well, they're always afraid for your, for your security. Right. But the thing is, is, now, with some critical distance, I now figured out the thing that the

comics that make it have, that of course, that I never had. Here's the thing. Here it is. Adrian and I just figured this out. Oh my god, this is years of study. Okay, there's one thing a lot of them have. Balls. Okay, that's balls

you gotta have balls but you have to have complete and utter commitment in the material it's the commitment you know that's the thing about hicks when they talk about hicks you know his stuff was great but the commitment to the material yeah that's the thing you know martin short you know he comes on and there's no to me there's no better letterman guest than martin short and great panel guest and he does those silly songs and they're just nonsense but the commitment he acts like this is the greatest song ever written and i'm the greatest singer ever but i think don't you think uh but but he's you know he's a song and dance man right right but but but it is but they are they are for you know they are comedy song right but it's the

but he right well that's hilarious yeah but also like a long in stand-up it has to be commitment uh behind the point of view absolutely because if you're just a joke teller you're going to struggle a little bit no matter how committed you are well that was my well to me that was now we're talking 20 you know 25 years later my problem was always hey you know i wrote it i think it's well written here it is right not good enough that's not a performance that's not a performance right but it becomes who is this guy get he's got a jack and a cigar right right but you know what you know what's his angle because if you really think about even that generation you know 1980 uh well richard lewis is already gone but you know like larry and jerry and bill maher even as a as a monologist there was some point of view

absolutely a thousand percent you know even henny youngman well you know i remember you know maher once said about jerry that he's uh he's thrown away an A act. Jerry used to do, and he only did this bit a couple of times, he used to do a bit about getting bar mitzvahed, and you're 13, and it's today I am a man. He said, you know, when I was 13, I had terrible skin, my voice was cracking, none of my clothes fit, I was awkward, I was gangly. If somebody's car broke down and they saw me

standing on the side of the road at 13 they wouldn't say anything we can get that man to help us and it was such a and it always got a laugh but Jerry tossed it out because I think he didn't want to be associated with being a Jew yeah and to me you know standing on the silence why why you know yeah well I mean i think that he marks i mean and as an observer maybe you could but you could uh validate this that he marks the transition out of jewishness in a way absolutely a thousand percent and and because like the 70s it was all neurotic jews right give or take a few uh you know uh latinos other ethnicities you know but but the like the New York sort of cultural tone defined comedy for the country in a way and it was all Jewish and for years before that and I think

Jerry with the name you know that he just he just gutted the Jew out of it right it's interesting yeah yeah and I remember you know when I was starting and and every once in a while I would get a note back from agents or people in the business. You know, you lean on that word Jew a little too much. And, you know, it's like, well, I think it's funny and I wouldn't really listen to it. And then like five years after me, Jon Stewart comes along and it's Jew, Jew, Jew, Jew, Jew. Brought it back. He's a genius, you know.

But again, again, the difference between me and him, he had, I think, great commitment to the way he was delivering the stuff. Much more commitment. He did. Him as a stand-up, before he became, he had a couple of jokes that were very smart. And he was politically bold always, but not heavy-handed. Right. And I like him as much as i you know i'm jealous

of him right you know what i mean yeah so all right so you get there in 1980 you become a house mc one of three right you know you're you're part of a long legacy of of well you know belger belger sort of defined that job absolutely and uh and he was out of control in a lot of ways he was out of control and the thing is is that um and and bill maher did this and i never did this bill maher would do a lot of time between acts if there was somebody he was then he was the mc the comics waiting hated right and he and he was if if um if someone was in to see someone else you know bill did a good nice bit of time so they could see. And you know, that's smart.

To see him. Yeah. And I never had that in me. This is why I ended up in Albany after I got out of Harvard and not at the Times or the Washington Post because I was the one guy at Harvard

that didn't think to call the Times or the Washington Post and think, are there any Harvard guys there? I just said, well, I'll send out my clips and the best. You had some, you were humble or insecure, one or the other. Let think, are there any Harvard guys there? I just said, well, I'll send out my clips and the best. You were humble or insecure, one or the other?

Let's go with insecure. I ain't humble. Because Harvard now is a tremendous cachet. The brotherhood, the Lampoon brotherhood. But I was the one guy, because of a decision I made at 18 to write for the Crimson rather than Lampoon, it took me much longer to break into television

because I had no connections. But Harvard was all about connections. It was about protecting connections. That's correct. And you chose not to do that because you're like, no, I don't know, maybe I'm, you know, just send my stuff out. Yeah, right, right.

This is a meritocracy. I'm going to let my stuff stand on its own. And years later, when my first book came out the ring, I was talking to a woman that was an editor at Newsweek who was a year ahead of me at Harvard. And I explained to her what I had done as a senior and just sending my clips out. Let's see what happens. And she looked at me and said, isn't that cute?

You didn't understand what Harvard was for. I had no idea. I had no idea. All right. So, okay. So, you're a house em house mc and i remember seeing you there occasionally i never you know to be quite honest with you i never passed at the original catch and i i could not stand louis veranda uh and i and i to this day i have uh i still have

resentment the unresolved resentment you're in you're into that we're talking the 90s now well no i went in 80 adrian i left uh ch I left New Year's Eve in 87. Right. So I get there, no, I get there in 89 and I'm already working up in Boston. And I auditioned at all the clubs. And I got to sit, maybe I'll get you on. I was that guy. Hang out at the bar.

Maybe I'll get you on. And I just could not deal with it. But I got in at the improv right before it ended. And that's where we met. We met at the improv. So you're knocking it out for 13 years as a comic. Was there a moment where, you know, I mean, I get it. I know that life.

And I know the, you know, like, because I never, I always lived that life. I never thought to be a writer. I never even crossed my mind. And, you know, I spent a lot longer than that, you know, beating my head against the wall. Was there a moment where you're like, you know, I got to shift? Well, it was, the 13 years, the first six, I loved it. And like the second seven, unbeknownst to me, I was kind of trapped because it was how I made a i made a living i didn't know how to do anything else right i had no other horrible no other skills but you can write sports and uh yeah but i mean well you know i had a couple of shots at that

and but that's those are other stories and and the letterman show came on in 82 and i submitted as a writer for them i tried to get on as a comic. I came close, came close to the Tonight Show. You know, I have the heartbreak stories like all of us do about the Tonight Show and Letterman Show. And I submitted the Letterman Show in 84, 85, 86, 87, 88. Monologue jokes, sketch ideas. And the whole thing.

And you know, in show business, when they want you, they'll get in touch with you. Who told you how to do that? I mean, how did you know? Was there a comic? I uh uh bob morton who used to come in and see the comics who was the producer and uh stephen star who was uh my agent at william morris and and they would say they're looking for somebody and and never even came close so i took uh 1989 and 1990 off from submitting. To be sad? Just that, well, I guess, you know how you feel. Well, I guess the business has made its decision about me. You know that.

And I was on the road, and I could sense the shift on the road that clubs were closing. And then in 91, I got a couple of small jobs i got a job on dennis leary's show on the on the ha network yeah before comedy central right but uh with uh it was a show called after drive with billy kimball he and billy kimball hosted then i got another small job and then uh adrian and i were having breakfast at the friars and morton was there. And I, I walked up to him and I said, are you looking for rice? He says, we're not looking for anybody.

He says, you know, but he said, you know, just write some jokes. He says, Dave's always looking for jokes. So I,

you know, I had, I didn't have any work that week. So I started writing jokes and he only used to do three at NBC. And on the Thursday night show, original show on the, yeah. So I had two really, I didn't realize because there was only, because there was one rule at late night. Do not be Thursday night show. On the original show? Yeah. So late night too. Really?

I didn't realize that. Because there was only, because there was one rule at late night. Do not be the tonight show. Right. So the monologue was opening remarks and it was kind of tossed off. So that Thursday night,

he does one of my jokes. And then Friday night, he does one of my jokes. And then Morton calls me back. And if you were a comic back then, Morton never called anybody back. He called me back. He says, it turns out we're looking for a monologue writer and i got hired the next week and that was in 91 i've been there ever since you're still there yeah it's unbelievable yeah yeah all right so i guess my question specifically is you know as the mc at catch

at that time i mean i can imagine what you know bill maher was doing and you know and and um and jerry and I can imagine that. But these mythical stories about Larry David as a comic, I've only got some, you hear half things, but you saw it. I saw it,

and here's the deal. So I pass at Catch in June of 81. So now, and I'm working late night,'m going on two in the morning then i become a late night mc so now it comes around and it's december of 1981 it's the holiday so all the comics the new york comics that live out in la they come back so the shows which are normally great now you've got these guys that have come back for the holidays so larry is is you know larry david's here and he was on fridays so i'm in the hanging out in the bar me and ron zimmerman ron zimmerman

how's he doing he he's great he's a producer and he shares best friend what else could be do you talk to him uh every once in a while yeah and um so we And so we're in the bar, and Larry is pacing back and forth up and down the bar. And Zimmerman says, hey, what's with the pacing? And Larry David said, do you know that Woody Allen used to throw up before he went on every time? And I think, I got to go in and see this. Hadn't he done it in a while so he i you know he was always so now i go inside and larry goes on and this is the holidays it's 10 at night it's 1981 it's packed catch is the center of the comedy universe yeah and ladies and gentlemen

from friday's larry david and they go crazy and he gets on stage and the first two lines kill the first line is uh you know what they say about attractive people we're not well liked and uh you know is it okay if i use the familiar two form with you because instead is much too formal you know yeah so the two lines kill then he does a line that doesn't work that well yeah and he says is it uh is it hot in here then he does two lines to kill and he has done the line that doesn't do that well this is very very hot in here then he does one line that kills and one line it doesn't do well you know you pay these kind of prices and the air conditioner is faulty then Then he does two lines in a row that

don't do well. It's really very, very hot in here. And at that moment some guy in the audience has the nerve to say hey, what's your problem? My problem? I'll tell you what my problem is

is you people in the air conditioner screaming and storms off and that's the first time i ever saw him and that incident was repeated thousands of times one way or another yeah and it would always be and we we got to be friends and it was one of those things where i would uh be on the phone with him and i would say so uh how's it going for you have you been getting in any confrontations with people? Absolutely not. Wait a minute, the dry cleaner today. And he would tell some crazy story and still, you know, with Larry. And, you know, it's funny about this book, which is the shrink that I was about a guy that leaves therapy. You know, Larry David was one of those

guys is one of those guys that thinks that therapy is nonsense. He thinks it's absolute nonsense. And he thinks, you know, they're just so bored. All they ever want to hear is, I want to have sex with my aunt. He says, if you don't have that, you might as well not go to therapy. I do believe that there are many, many therapists out there, like there are many stockbrokers, and there are probably seven good stockbrokers, and there are probably, you know, seven really good, you know, it's just out there. And as my father used to say about stockbrokers, you know, if they knew anything, they wouldn't be brokers. Yeah. You know, and, but Larry, and the thing about Larry, and I want to give him a lot of credit about this. He's the only guy that I can think of that has gotten more regular as he's gotten more famous. It never happens that way because you never hear them interviewing a neighbor and saying you know i uh i grew up with him and he was a real asshole but then he became famous now he's a pussycat you

know it never it's always i think you exercise a certain amount of your demons once you become relevant and validated absolutely but larry has is much more accessible now in his fame as as he ever was now that said you know anytime you're with him you never know when a scene from curb is gonna break out and the story that i tell is a few years ago he's in town and we're having uh dinner and uh we get to it's time for dessert and i say how about dessert no no dessert for me ted Danson and I have a bet. No dessert for a year. And I'm thinking, Larry David. It's Ted Danson.

They're both billionaires. But the bet's got to be like $50,000 or $100,000. Maybe the bet's like a million dollars. And I say, how much is the bet for? $200. I said, have a piece of fucking cake. But it's still, you you know he still is that guy yeah well that's it well that's life right the little things and that's the way uh he has to be

right so you get the gig at letterman right and you're there almost 25 years right and you have not written your first book yet no i don't write't write my first book till, I write my first book, which is everybody's first novel, which is 110,000 words, 80,000 of which are I. That doesn't get published. I write my second book, The Ringer. That gets published in 2002. Okay. My second book, Time Won't Let Me, about a band, 2005.

My third book, Everything Hurts, 2009. And this book, Shrink Thyself. And you have an audience for your books. Yeah. I mean, it's not as big as I would like. You feel like you're getting better? Absolutely. A thousand percent. And I think this is my best. This is in the first person. And I think that this is the most accessible, to use that word again of all my novels because uh you know the first one was about uh a guy that makes a living as a softball ringer in new york and um you know that's kind of tough

that's a kind of a small audience and there's uh some uh prescription drug abuse in there and you would think that would have drawn some the second book is about comedic setup it's a satire right yeah they're all they're all satirical in their own way i mean they're deathly serious to me when other people call them satires oh yeah i guess you're right the second book is about was based on was inspired by a story that happened my older brother about his band in prep school they cut an album and then 15 years later the album was worth five thousand dollars for collectors so i recreated that story but you know that his story is a little too cute and neat in my story it's 30 years later the album's worth ten thousand dollars and the guys can't get out of their own way to reunite yeah but that was a very specific 60s garage you know garage rock yeah that was a very specific.

The third book, Everything Hurts, was about a guy trying to get rid of a psychosomatic limp. You know, again, you know, these are sort of high-minded things, you know. But this one, you know, everybody has either been to therapy, knows somebody that's in therapy, has had a bad experience, has had a good experience. And this is about a guy that tries to leave therapy and tries to live the unexamined life and the second he makes that decision things happen to him that would send any other anybody else screaming back into therapy so in so in that sense i think that i'm reaching people a little better and there's a lot of you in there. and you say, well, what can I do to make this complicated? Uh, this, this book, I mean, there's,

you know, there's a lot of elements from my life, but I never, what happens in this book, I never had sessions with my shrink in a mental hospital while the shrink was in the mental hospital. Okay. I never did that. Uh,

um, you know, my, um, I never, uh, told, uh,

my shrink about a, a fantasy affair that i tried to carry out and then the shrink went and looked up the same woman and had an affair with her that sounds good yeah so that was yeah so so these things you make it a little uh uh sounds a little dark yeah oh it's absolutely dark it's absolutely absolutely, because it's not interesting the other way. It's not, you know, there's a lot of people that you can read. And, you know, I always try to be funny and I try to be humble. Yeah. Well, I mean, who are your guys in terms of writers?

Well, Philip Roth. The best, right? And Richard Yates. Yeah. Richard Yates. I don't know his stuff. I terms of writers? Well, Philip Roth. The best, right? And Richard Yates. Yeah. Richard Yates. I don't know his stuff. I know Philip. Oh, you got to.

You got to. I mean, you. You need to read Richard Yates because he is. What are his books? Well, Revolutionary Road, which was made into not a good movie. That's his most famous novel. Easter Parade. I'll check it out.

A good school. But he is. And and you know here's another connection the character of elaine in seinfeld was not based on carol liefer as she is don't tell her that no right don't tell her that it was based on monica yates richard yates's daughter who larry went out with really yeah interesting that's who he was based on wow and breaking news and richard yates is the king of 1950s and 60s broken suburbanite alcoholics you know he picked up the uh the cheever torch or what but but but better than cheever because well the bed and better than updyke i feel because as i say richard y, his books are meant to be read by the light of your oven.

Yeah. I mean, they're so depressing. And I don't know. When I read the depressing stuff, it really lifts. It's so much richer. Sure. It gives Jews a warm feeling. Absolutely.

And he's guyish. Yeah. You know, Yates is guyish. And full guy and uh but philip roth is my hero it's it's amazing that you find the time to do this and this was obviously at some point your dream unrealized and then you realized it to be a novelist it uh well put i always thought that i didn't have the gene in me to write a long form because i was writing jokes. I was writing

scripts. I was a standup, you know, I was a sports writer. To me, it was all in installments. And there's that insecurity that unlike that, unlike Harvard insecurity that you carry with you. Right. And what happened was I just didn't think I had it. I wanted it badly, but I never had it. And then when I was, I picked up a book when I was 38 that called The Artist Way, which is a tremendous book. Yeah, I remember that book. They had workshops. And that. Really?

That did it? It changed my, I mean, I'm the millionth person whose life had changed because it, you know, you do these morning pages, which I still do 18 and a half years later. And it just kind of blows off it's like blowing off the foam on the top of a beer you just get all that crap out in the morning and your mind is a little more open to help your joke writing absolutely a thousand percent really a thousand percent well you just sit down for a period of time you do three pages it takes 20 minutes i've been doing it for years years. And it's very journalistic. It's like, you know, the dry cleaning didn't come back.

You know, it's like that. But you just get that stuff. And you get to see the other thing that's very valuable because you get to see your hand move. You get to be a writer first thing when you wake up. You did it by hand? Yeah. Absolutely. That's what you have to do?

You can't do it on the computer? You know, people do, but I don't think it's the same thing. People do. People do. I did that. I journaled during my divorce every day because I had no choice, it seemed. Right. And did that help you?

Did that help you? It helped me, but reading it now is very painful. Well, I read, yeah. I mean, I read my stuff after the fact. So, I'll just, so here's the deal. So, I start doing the morning pages in August of 1995. Right. And I'm doing them every day.

In October of 1995, I stopped gambling. I was a degenerate gambler. Really? In November of 1995, I stopped drinking. And in December of 1995, I start working on my first novel. And that was i mean it directly correlate correlation absolutely a thousand percent a degenerate gambler degenerate gambler i say that and you can and i'm sorry we're on the radio but you can see me kind of smile when

i say that because it's yeah i mean it was yeah absolutely that was your thing it was my thing well everything was my thing but that was, but that was my daily thing. Did you ever tell, what was the edge you reached? How much did you lose? Oh, I came back. Well, I remember, well, you used to have to settle up every week. With your bookie. With my bookie. And I remember I owed my bookie $39.95. I owed him, you know, $3,909. And I said to him, I said, hey, you just make sure you bring the five. Right.

But you never got to a point where you had to borrow money? Came, I mean, I came as close as you can come. I came, well, I mean, I was under. Yeah. So, and I was one of those guys. I mean, I i was when i was fifty thousand dollars in debt before i got the letterman job this was my fantasy i was we were fifty thousand dollars in debt not just a gamble but other stuff you know being comics you know

sure right and this was my plan my plan fifty thousand dollars debt, was to get hit by a cab and sue the cab company for $60,000. That was your plan? Not for a million. You're supposed to sue for a million and settle for $60,000. No, it was $60,000, and I figured, you know, give the lawyer a taste, and then I would be straight. Well, you're a reasonable man. You're a moral guy. That's right.

Were you standing out in the street trying to figure out how to do it or didn't get it wasn't until years it was it wasn't until about a year after i stopped gambling that i actually got hit by a cab and timing it was entirely my fault and it was one of those things where i stepped off the curb and i felt it and as i'm in the air i'm, this is what it must be like to get hit by a cab. And then I landed on the hood and I was okay. And the guy was shaken up. The cab driver was beside. And I said, I'm okay.

And it was my fault. And of course, he'd never had anybody say that to him. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And I was okay. Amazing. This insecurity streak makes you a moral man. Well, yeah. Yeah, and I was okay, amazingly. This insecurity streak makes you a moral man.

Well, good. Who am I to disagree with you? Yeah. But, all right, so congratulations on the new book, but I do want to get into your relationship with Letterman because he's a hero of mine. Okay. Were you there when I did the panel last time?

Absolutely. It was the first time I ever did panel. I know. It was great. And I was there. Well, it must have been very significant for you because you don't remember me coming up and saying, good job. No, I do.

I do. I do. But of course. Yeah. Yeah. And it was like, because I'd done the show a few times. I never really thought he registered me. But to sit there with him was a big deal you know to look at him and have that opportunity

and and and i get it and and i get it and he doesn't you can tell him as i have tell as i have told him many many times you have no idea what it means to comics to come and sit with you you have no idea what it means to them he said oh that's nonsense it you know and i said what do i what do i have to do to convince you it was mind-blowing to me it was like it was like uh it's a high point now doing the show already you know i was in uh i don't want to brag about my acting career but i was in beer league i played the umpire and arty lang came on the show after Beer League. And he was great.

And he told the stories. And he said to me, biggest thrill of my career. Yeah. Yeah. To just sit there across from him. Because you're fighting with this thing of like, Dave Letterman's right there. Right. He's right there. And having been a guest on the show to promote my books and working with him every day, and then all of a sudden sitting in the chair, I get it.

Because it's different for me because the thing, and I don't know if this hit you, but the thing when I'm sitting in the chair and I'm a guest on the show and I look at him, he is so comfortable. And I am so not comfortable. And I thought, how am'm not even going to compete as as in a in conversation with this because this is completely his and it's so heightened too because like you know you are just talking but but there it's almost an out-of-body experience in the moment right because you want to just talk but then you realize like it's like this is his world you're you know this is dave's's universe here, and you're on television. It's just so, like his comfort in the face of all that is astounding.

Right, and it's become much more so in the last 10 years. I think since the heart surgery. A thousand percent, because now he doesn't care if the show runs over and has to be edited down. I mean, he cares, but he cares more about finishing the conversation that he started. He cares more about the connection. Oh, good. And that's new. Well, absolutely.

I mean, it was always, I think it was always there, but I think that- I think he got warmer. Yeah, I agree. Absolutely. And I think that he... Yeah, I just think that he realized the job wasn't going away, and this is what he loved to do. And, you know, if you just have a regular conversation with him, he asks the questions just in a regular conversation that nobody else asks. And there's a lot of times just during the day where, you know, we'll be talking about something that I feel

pretty knowledgeable about. And he'll ask me a question and I'll go, excuse me for a second. And then I got to go to the computer to get an answer for him at one second, you know. Now, like I find to be mysterious in that, you know, you hear things here and there that, you know, you like i i find to be mysterious in that you know you hear things here and there that you know he's he's insulated he doesn't like to talk to people he you know he you know he's uh he's um not accessible uh you you know he's he's a little kooky and uh but you do you consider you consider him a friend do you guys socialize no we don't we very i mean maybe a a couple times a year you know i'll go with him somewhere where he wants to go but we don't we don't we used to play squash for a while we've i mean but we don't um i think that we get uh it's so intense

you know i work for him and we have the friendship at the show no i get that i mean it's it's one of those things but i'll tell you and and this is you got to be the guy that's been there the longest or one other guy no well i'm the i'm the well steve young has been there started a year before i did so he's the writer that's been there the longest and we have a lot of people i mean barbara gaines and jude b Brennan have been there since the morning show. Do you know, we did a thing when he was 30 years in late night, which was 2012. We did a top 10 and it was the top 10 longest serving staffers. I didn't come close to making that list.

Who was the one guy that had been there forever, the comedy writer? Well, Jerry Mulligan. No, he retired in 2004. Right. But he had been there a long time. And he had also been on the comedy writer. Well, Jerry Mulligan. No, he retired in 2004. Right. But he had been there a long time. And he had also been on The Morning Show. But I was thinking, pursuant to my book, about, well, how am I going to tie in Dave with my book? So I was seeing a shrink years ago. And it was one of those things.

When you see a shrink, A, you're not supposed to know anything about them, and they're not supposed to talk about themselves. So at the time, it was about 1995 or 1996, and CBS had been sold to Westinghouse, and the guy that was in charge of Westinghouse was a guy named Michael B. Jordan. Yeah. And Dave was upset that the guy had not called him so for a week or maybe two

every night behind the desk he would say uh listen i've decided that i'm gonna fight this guy and he would say so one time i come into my to my shrink appointment and and sometimes we would talk about the show but most times we had to talk about the stuff that you got to talk about in therapy that's way much earlier than Letterman. Yeah. And I sit down and my shrink says, listen, Bill, before we begin, I just, you know, I don't watch the show. But the other night I was up late and I happened to have the show. Well, was Dave challenging his boss to a fight? And then that's that situation, if you've ever been in it, where all of a sudden you're the therapist.

And then all of a sudden you have to say to your therapist, okay, go with that. Well, what do you mean fight? Well, let's talk about it. And that was, you know, and that's the effect that this guy has on everybody. And at first, after when he announced his retirement, and, you know, every day people were coming up to me and saying, what are you going to do? And their worry did not seem very real. And I was like, look, we've got 200 shows left. I'll worry about that after the 200 shows.

I'm not even thinking about that. But then it took another person to point out to me, look, this isn't just happening to Dave. And this isn't just happening to all of us that work there. This is happening to everybody that's watched him for 33 years. So when people say to me, what are you going to do? They're just saying, what am I going to do? And so now I'll have any conversation with people about that. Yeah.

Do you think he, do you think they're like, in my mind, I'm like, like he, in my mind, it's like he waited till Jay left first. I think that absolutely had a, I mean, it was, you know, it's the TKO. It's the guy that can't answer the bell. I mean, it was, you know, it's the TKO. It's the guy that can't answer the bell. But I'll tell you what I said to him one day. This is a few months ago.

This is before the announcement. And this is after. So let's say it's April. So Jay had left in February. And it's during a break. And I look at him and I said, is it me or does the air just smell sweeter with Jay not on it? And you just, just the little corner of his mouth came up. Yeah.

I'll tell you, man, you know, he's done some amazing stuff, you know, and I watched him at the beginning when I was in college and I, the way he handled that blackmail attempt was one of the most amazing things I've ever seen in my life. Well, I mean. Just to come clean and just fucking just gut that guy. I thought it was great. Well, you know, I think that it was, I remember it was sort of, it was just an odd day. And, you, and you wondered how he would handle it, and he handled it. He got out in front of it, and then, of course, we did two shows that day.

So we did it in the first show. In the second show, Larry David is the lead guest, and he had been there early and heard the first. He said, what have I walked into? You know, I was like. Why this day? Yeah. That's hilarious. But so he's always treated you well and he treats the staff well and he's a good man.

Absolutely. But think about, well, I mean, you know a lot of people that are famous that have had jobs a long time it's um you think about that job it's insane it's it's insane job and think about let's just i'll just choose this name think about having to interview jasmine guy twice a year for 30 years and i'm thinking i use jasmine guy because she probably used the publicity just as an example of somebody that the people that you have to talk to and he makes it seem like he is interested and if he makes it see and if he's not interested he turns it so that it's compelling to watch right yeah and gets the person so it's all it's that it's compelling to watch. Right, yeah. And gets the person. Sometimes it's great when he's a little irritated.

He used to be more so. Well, I've often said about him that he's the only guy, and I challenge another name, he's the only guy in the history of television whose mood has been chronicled on television. Now, Roseanne, nobody crazier than Roseanne. You know, she's been a guest of the state a few times, but you never watch an old episode of Roseanne and think, oh, yeah, yeah. This is when she was having a fight with the network. Yeah. No, because she's doing her show and she's locked in.

yeah no because she's doing her show and she's locked in that's the thing about dave is that as a um you know maybe as a as a guy not accessible but as like as a human being public yeah right public very accessible oh yeah he lives there he's upset yeah that's right he lives there and that's what it's that's what it's amazing to watch. And the longer I'm there, the more I understand how difficult the job is. His job is. Brutal. Because, you know, I consider myself a comic. You know, you're a comic and you think, well, I could go out and tell a monologue.

I got some stuff. Yeah. And then I could talk to people. Sure. Yeah. You could do it for a night or two nights. Yeah. Or a week. But every night.

But what about 33? I mean, what about that? Yeah. And he's always been, you know, the first one in, the last one out. People ask me, a guy asked me about, you know, does he still like to do it? Well, all I can tell you is I get down to the dressing room at 245, and then he comes up and we go through the monologue. And there's two flights of stairs. You're the head monologue guy.

Right, me and Steve Young. And so I'm waiting for him, and he's 67. And he runs up those two flights of stairs every day. He used to run them all, didn't he? Because I remember the first time I did it, I actually saw him in like mid-run. It was weird. No, he runs, yeah. He runs the whole hallway. And then he runs the two flights of stairs at the end.

So forget that he's 67 and can do that. Forget that. But that's, he's running up those stairs because he wants to start his day. And when I see him stop running up those stairs, then I'll say, all right, well, maybe you don't want to do this. Yeah.

Well, let's go over this one other thing, which is, if I'm not mistaken, the night that they pulled Hicks' set, you did it. Right. You did the set. Right. I am that footnote. And absolutely. Just to set it up for people that don't know, Bill Hicks hadicks's set, you did it. Right. You did the set. Right. I am that footnote, and absolutely.

Just to set it up for people that don't know, Bill Hicks had done a set, and it was fairly controversial, and he was censored. And there's been a lot of, I think the true story is probably out there, but they pulled the set. He reacted to it in Lars' column in New York Magazine,

but you were the guy that they played your set. Right. So here's, so let me, let's just back up. So Adrian, my wife, Adrian Tulsch, is working in Houston where she used to work all the time, and she sees Hicks, and she says to him, listen, if you come to New York, I will get you seen by the letterman people and you'll get on and she had said only said that to one other person who was emo phillips and it happened

for him so hick says okay so she uh calls morton and morton again returns her call which never happened and says you remember with emo i got another guy and so morton comes in now jay of course has spent the last 20 years telling everybody. It was his idea. You know, like everything in show business is Jay's idea. But my wife got Hicks, the Letterman show. And he did it, I think, eight or nine times at NBC. And he was one of the, there were about five comics that worked the show a lot.

Him and Jake. And now I can't remember the other guys. But Wayne Cotter used to do the show a lot him and jake and um oh for the light now i can't remember the the other guys but uh wayne cotter used to do the show and um at margaret smith yeah peg smith and um so uh now we go to cbs and it's our 25th show it's our fifth week stephen wright was the first comic to be on the new show okay to be on the new show and Oh, okay. To be on the new show. And Hicks is booked. And Hicks and I are old friends. I opened for him.

I did, when he taped his first album, I opened for him. And I knew him for a while. I was very fond of him. And I was doing the audience for him. He's a good guy. He was in New York for a couple years. Remember that? He was like, I gotta get out of here.

No, that was, yeah. And we were down at Caroline's. And he was great. And for a couple of years. Remember that? He was like, I got to get out of here. No, that was, yeah. And we were down at Caroline's and he would, yeah, he was great. And he would work the improv. And again, the commitment to the material. So before the show went on the air, they did two shakedown shows where they test the equipment and audience and all thing. And I was on the second shakedown show doing standup. And I was still a show. Yeah.

I was still a stand-up then yeah it was probably one of the last sets i ever uh did and uh you know went great and uh and that was it so now here's hicks and uh i go backstage before the show and he's got and i'll never forget his he's wearing a yellow button-down shirt and a yellow tweed, like a herringbone jacket, completely. And I said, what is this? He said, this is the new friendlier Bill Hicks. And I said, oh, okay, right. So now he comes out, and the set is...

89? No, this is 93. This is October 1st, 1990. So 1990 so he's sick already right and nobody knows okay nobody knows he dies in december so he comes on and he gets um some laughs some big laughs up front and but the set is it's not like a hick set um it's just odd and some of the choices are are are odd and it's not it's not the balls out produced right i mean you knew it was what well it was yeah the the stuff that was selected probably should not have been selected that's the problem is that the the set was not built to his advantage

who was the segment producer i don't know i don't remember who it was back then and uh but you know he does he does well but there are a couple of odd moments and knowing him as i do um not of him but i don't think anything of it And then he goes, and Dave was laughing at a couple of stuff, a couple of things up front. And he sits down with Dave, does a little panel with Dave. And then Dave says, hey, good luck with your mail. That's the last thing Dave says to him. Because of the abortion joke, right.

Because of the gay, it was, I think there were a couple of, there's a couple of things. So that's it. And I go over to him backstage and he said, well, how do you think that went? And I say, it went great. Dave was laughing and he was at Caroline's that weekend. And I said, I'm going to come see you at Caroline's because we were friends and I love Colleen and the whole deal. And then he was going down to West Palm. Yeah.

So now I come upstairs and Jeff Stilson was a writer on the show. And you know Jeff. And Jeff, very strong comic. And Jeff is waiting for me. And he says, what was that? And they're old friends, him and Hicks. He says, what was that? I said, oh, gee, so it's not just me, because I thought it was odd.

And the very first line of it was very hacky for him, that let's hunt and kill Billy Ray Cyrus. Very hacky, not like him to do something like that. And so I figured, oh, great, I'm not the only one that thought it was a little beneath him. And then I'm up in my office and I do whatever I do. And then I come down and it's Dave and Bob Morton and some CBS people. And I say goodbye because it's Friday night. And Dave says, hey, watch the show tonight and you'll be in for a surprise and i say oh shit was i caught on camera which used to happen as a warm-up guy and you

didn't want to be caught on camera yeah and he says yeah something like that and what i didn't know was that they were discussing that they were going to cut my shakedown show performance in and uh they did not make that decision till really late as a matter of fact what people don't know is that the open announce the show was rolled in live at 11 30 and dave did bill wendell's open announce dave was staying there at 11 30 so they cut cut in my, um, and, and, and that's what happened. And they, they went to Hicks. I mean, you know, you know, people were wrong. Uh, I don't think that he was told the truth Hicks, but I think they also were very anxious to get him back on the show soon. What was the reason?

the show soon what was the reason i think the reason was i think the reason was that we were only on the air for five weeks and we just did not the show just did not want all this controversy so from the christians well i think it was i think there were a couple, yeah, or whatever it was. They just thought, they just didn't want to take that on. The Christian Wright might have reacted. Yeah, and they just did not want that. But they told him, they said, listen, this is our fault because the set should have been better produced and there's other stuff and this and that and and uh and we're gonna have you on real soon but nobody knew he was sick nobody knew he was dying and uh so of course that's what happened and and i think that bill i think bill kind of ran with it

i don't think that you know um uh you know i don't think that he was uh you know't think that, you know, I don't think that he was, you know, I think that he was really hurt. Probably because he knew it might have been one of his last sets on that show. Absolutely. And so that happened. And then, you know, it was, you know, it became a mystery over all of these. And back then we used to get, we had these huge monster ratings. And of course, nobody ever knew that it was me that went on. And then, I don't know how many years later, Dave had his mother on.

I know. I was going to ask you about that. That was really something. That was Dave's decision. Was it eating at him? Yes. It must have been. It was.

And that's like how many years later years later is more than a decade? Oh, absolutely. It was. And Bill Hicks' mom said to him, I knew once you had a son that you would come. She said this to him. Did she say that on the air? Yes. I can't remember.

And he, you know, and he righted the wrong. Now't i don't know anything that's going on i never do i just work on my little he didn't run the set though it would have been interesting no one did they did run it they ran it that night oh good okay and dave says i'm embarrassed because this stuff is as funny now as it was then and for me to think that was controversial and I'm embarrassed. No, they ran it. They ran the whole set. Now, just because I'm here, I'll just tell you about me.

I had no idea that Hicks' mother was going to be on until the day before. And I didn't think anything of it. And then, of course, I relived all this. And I felt awful that I was cut in because i was friends with him but colleen said he was thrilled it was you i felt very guilty but even though it was not my decision and i went up to hicks's mother like i came up to you after she finished and i said uh hi um my name is bill chefff. She said, I know who you are.

And she said, Bill was very fond of you. And of course, it was everything I could do not to break down and cry because, you know, but I was I like to think that maybe it was some closure for everybody on that. But that's what happened. That's what happened. And I I'm sorry that it went sideways and he became this sort of censored, persecuted martyr. And to me, as a comic, it was a set that was just not well produced. And it was not well thought out.

And he didn't close with his strongest right bit it was a it was a it was a you know it was a bunch of events it was it was a new show they didn't want controversy and it wasn't a strongest set right and the fact that he passed away so shortly after you know sort of you know amplified well as they did a uh um I find two things interesting. They did this documentary many, many years ago. And Dave was on. And he said, well, Bill's, he was a favorite of ours. Yeah.

And his last appearance on our show was made more odd by the circumstances of his, the fact that he never got back on. And the thing that I found amazing is there have been many books written about Hicks, many books, and many books written about this night. And of all those books, I was only interviewed once. And because I didn't give play to the narrative, it was really never run in that book what in kevin's or or uh cynthia's i think cynthia yeah she didn't interview she no she interviewed me right she interviewed me but kevin didn't yeah and um because i you know i wasn't yeah man he was you know it was you know the people and he was, you know. Yeah.

You know, the set shouldn't have been. The man shut him down. And so that was, but that was it. But I'm glad I got the chance to tell that story. You know, there's a guy, he's a newspaper writer and he's a musician in North Carolina named John Dawson. And he says, you know what I like about Bill Hicks is there's this guy and he's saying these brilliant things and these deep things and these hilarious things. And he sounds like me. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And that was the thing about Hicks. He was great. He was a good guy. He was a great guy. Well, thanks, Bill. And good luck with the book. It was a great talk. Well, thanks, Bill. And good luck with the book. It was a great talk. Well, I mean, I loved it.

And, you know, God bless you for having me out here. And it's always, I love talking about stand-up because, you know, stand-ups, if you get two guys at an airport that have never met, two comics, and there's a three-hour layover, and they find out they're both comics that three hours just flies by right this guy's a scumbag this guy screwed me did you see that one guy what he did

yeah yeah it was great talking to you thanks so much that was cool that was a good conversation I like talking to that guy what else go to WTFpod.com.

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