WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 546 - David Lowery

Episode Date: October 29, 2014

Two of Marc's favorite bands, Camper Van Beethoven and Cracker, share a common denominator: Frontman David Lowery. Marc and David discuss the eclectic styles of both bands and why Cracker is having a bit of a renaissance with young people. Plus, David shares his thoughts on the challenges posed to songwriters by the rise of digital music. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost almost anything. So no, you can't get an ice rink on Uber Eats. But iced tea and ice cream? Yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats. Get almost almost anything. Order now.

Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction.

Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com. Lock the gates! Alright, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fucking ears? What the fuckstables?

What the fuck Minster Fullers? What the fucking ucks? What the fucking Navians? What the fuckericans? What the fucksikins? From my neighborhood. How are ya? This is Mark Maron. This is WTF. What's up?

What's going on? You alright? Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey. You okay, man? What's going on, man? What's going on with you? Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Relax. Just take a breath. Take a breath. Get a hold of yourself.

Alright? No, I don't want to sound condesc breath. Get a hold of yourself. All right? No, I don't want to sound condescending. This isn't tough love. Just take a breath, man. It's going to be all right. Okay. Just hang out, man. Just relax, relax, relax.

Oh, God. Blow it out. That's what it sounds like when you blow it out. Yeah, if you're in your car, scream a little bit. It's all right. Look, you might be having a good day. Maybe I'm not talking to you. I think you know who I'm talking to.

You who I'm talking to. All right. I'm excited about today's show because I talked to David Lowry. David Lowry. Come on, you guys. David from Cracker. But more importantly, in my mind, maybe not his. But you know what?

I like Cracker. But Camper Van Beethoven, those guys were the shit, man. They got a couple new albums out recently. And we talked about it a little bit, me and David. But I'm just excited because I'm a huge Camper Van Beethoven fan. And I'm a very big Cracker fan as well. And quite honestly, I love David Lowery's voice. Always have.

I always tell you I'm one of the great voices in rock music. And I was excited to talk to the dude. It's kind of interesting, you know, when you grow up really respecting an artist and, you know, you love their music. And then, you know, they come in here and it's like, hey, we're just a couple middle-aged guys talking about shit. But it was great to see him. I came into camper like I think it was late and it was it brought back memories. I don't know how much I've talked about this. By the way, I had a weird dream where my brother shot me with a handgun last night.

I don't know what that means. I haven't told him about it, but it was visceral. And I was just I walked into a room. I saw my brother. He was, you know, he had a handgun and he was pretty dead I walked into a room, I saw my brother, he was, you know, he had a handgun and he was pretty dead set on shooting me and I was like, no, that wouldn't be good. I stepped out of the room, he fired it

and I felt like I'd been punched in the chest and I looked down at my chest and then I woke up. So I gotta figure out what the hell that's about. I'm gonna call my brother up and ask him, you know, why are you shooting me in my dreams? That's no good. Yeah, but I've been having some fairly lucid dreams lately. Yeah, sometimes I dream about the ex-wife, which is weird.

Yeah, I don't understand that. I've not seen or talked to her in seven years or so. Nothing's really happening in the dream. We're just okay. It's just like she's there, and it's cool. It's no sex in the dream. It's just, we're just okay. It's just like she's there and it's like, it's cool. It's no sex, no nothing. It's just sort of like, hey, everything's okay. Oh God, it's heartbreaking.

What is going on with me? You know, it's like adjusting to sort of really, you know, being alone is not great. It's not great at 51. I'm not feeling sorry for myself, but I'm trying to enjoy my life, which I am. I'm busy. We're back in the writer's room.

We're writing the third season of Marin. We've had a tough start at it because readjusting to sitting in a room with six other dudes compulsively snacking, looking at each other, waiting for ideas to happen. But we're way ahead of the game. We've cracked a lot of the stories. We're doing some pretty interesting stories.

Some of them obviously tethered to my life. Others speculative. I like to call that speculative. You know, what might happen? What could have happened? What would happen if I put myself in this situation? That's the weirdest thing about creating Mare and the TV show is that, as you know, we don't have an ensemble cast. And we have recurring guest stars.

But that means all stories run through me. I'm the guy on camera all the time because it's my show. But that's not an ego thing. That's not a decision thing. That's a budgetary thing. There's no real room for a second story. Or what about that guy? Well, that guy's only on one episode this season.

So it's really kind of extremely personal. And it all has to kind of run through my character. And yeah, getting back into the room was pretty daunting in a way. Because I had a minor meltdown. I'll be candid with you. I was like, haven't I told all my stories? But obviously I haven't. But the weird thing about it was that I'm looking back at the last year and about what's

happened in my life. And it's sort of like, all right, so I've had a couple of relationships go wrong. You know, I've continued to earn a living at what I want to do. But what has really happened and then i got into that mode of sort of like what am i what am i just spinning in the my wheels in the fucking mud emotionally am i just sort of like like it is the same thing happening over and over again have i closed my heart entirely to the possibility of love and connection stay tuned but so what i chose to do is just you know suck it up man up made myself some dinner you mean i'm just gonna sit here and eat dinner by myself and watch a

movie by myself yeah but you you know you got good movies man criterion collection just sent you a bunch of movies for making a list for them why don't you why don't you watch one of those fancy movies yeah that would cheer me up okay this one looks good uh fassbenders uh uh fear eats the soul yeah it's uplifting so i watch a german movie i'm feeling a little you know melancholic so i'm like i'll throw on a german movie about racism and love you know not not connected to each other but can love transcend racism and can your nationalistic racism ever be adjusted or erased can love survive can people accept each other not clear nonetheless i learned by watching that movie in the state that i was in that there's a very it's a fine line in my mind between feeling sad and feeling german but i don't know that was

the experience i had i was in my car and this came to me and i you know compulsively was like i gotta write that down but uh this is sort of heartbreaking too jesus christ marin don't talk to yourself in the third person i wrote just on it post it i'd rather hurt myself than be hurt by you there you there's a lyric there's a little poetry that's a little sad couplet is that a couplet even yeah sure it is why not pow i just shit my pants. Old school. Just coffee.coop. Available with WTF pod.

Get the WTF blend. A little kickback on the back end. Is that how you say that? Get a little something on the back end. That's unsexual. Hmm? The back end. What's my back end?

Yeah. Hey. All right. Camper Van Beethoven. Let's go back. Let's go back let's go back somerville massachusetts say 19 boy what would it have been 1988 ish i'm living in a house in somerville before somerville got cool before it got gentrified when it was just the kind of uh old working class suburbs with a lot of smoking people i there's i have very powerful memories i was there when duncan donuts introduced the big one so i used to get that

big one regular and i used to get jacked up on that that's where that that jones started right there in somerville waking up i was there living in a house where they built an entire bank building next door it felt like an earthquake every morning when they were pounding foundations into the earth with a giant drop, like a crane that just dropped a giant concrete like disc onto the top of steel girders or pieces to pound them like a nail into the earth at 7 in the morning back when I was still drinking. Yeah, not a great time. But in that house, there was Stan on the ground floor who had his own record label, Vanishing Point Records. He was also part of a band, but he was always down there packaging records, figuring out how to make his little record label work, figuring out how to make his band work. His band was the only band on the label, Vanishing Point Records.

Then on the second floor, you had Kofi and Elaine. Kofi was, I believe, from Africa. Elaine was approaching middle age. She was a lovely lady. They were together. Very interesting relationship. Elaine was sort of the den mother of the place. And then also in that hallway, there was a guy named Mark,

who was very quiet and didn't quite fit in, in that hallway there was a guy named mark who was very quiet and uh didn't didn't quite fit in but he seemed like a a good guy i didn't get along with him he was sort of more of a a nerd professor type of jew to my like chaotic peasant driven artistic jew then further down the hall was uh scott i'm not going to say his last name but he was a dick and then upstairs was me. And who else was there? Oh, yeah, sometimes Elaine's son, Jason, was there. And then his buddy moved in, Evan. Evan was sort of this kind of groovy, attractive-looking dude.

He was sort of groovy, man. He was very laid back. I had an appreciation for that guy. He seemed to have a sort of zen to him. I was like 25, 26 26 years old these guys were significantly younger than me i was living in an attic it was blue i was alone up there and uh evan had all this music i'd never heard of and one of them was camper van beethoven i think i heard um maybe i don't know if it was take the skinheads bowling or one of those early ones and i was like who the

fuck is that and he was like camper van beethoven man he talked like that ones and i was like who the fuck is that and he was like camber van beethoven man he talked like that seriously and i was like i gotta i gotta have everything those people have ever put out and that was when i got into camper van beethoven is there a better story from that time on cottage ave in somerville yes there is yes there is i found a cat that was my first experience with a cat and i was dating some girl named amy and there was a cat living in a tire hub like a wheel of a car this little kitten that was all dirty it's a dirty little orange kitten we didn't know what to do with it so i took it back to the group house and i was like i got a cat i'm gonna call it mojo and i'm gonna

take care of it i took it to the vet i got it all its shots and i love that little kitten and the thing was and this is i assume this happened this is why i'm not giving last names but the guy who sat in his room that was just filled with records and books and he was reading about hitler this tall keyboard player that thought he was a fucking genius and worked at the record store it was was a pompous fucking nothing, this guy. A real douchebag, first-class, affected motherfucker. And I couldn't stand him. There was just nothing better than when Scott got a cold sore on his mouth

and just picked at it until it became this large, gaping, open wound that was hilarious. Fuck that guy. Why am I so angry about him? I'll tell you why. Because I think one time when I had my Betamax camera in the living room and I was shooting some stuff and I left it in the living room. I believe Scott hocked it. Ooh, I said his last name.

I believe Scott hocked it. Yeah, I believe he hocked it. And then I got this kitten Mojo and Scott, the fucking lunatic delusional bastard, didn't like cats. And I had the cat in my room room there's no lock on the door and i think scott let the cat out and then let the cat outside and one time i come home and you know i'm like where's my mojo where's my cat and i'm worried about it and then across the street there was some construction going on and i get a knock on the door and this big dude you know wearing a tool belt he's like this your cat and i'm like yeah he's like you better be careful you better keep an eye on it man it was just out on the street you know i could take it home my wife would love

this cat and i'm like no it's my cat it's like i love cats too i'm like that's cool you're kind of going against type but that's my cat and then like within a week or two it was gone i don't even know if scott killed it or he just let it out. Man, I got some shit to resolve with that dude. I just hope things aren't going well for him. That's wrong. That's wrong. I hope he's come to grips with himself

and realized who he is and his limitations and he's living a healthy life. But he owes me an apology, I believe, for stealing my camera and letting my cat out if not killing my cat. I wouldn't put that past that guy. Speaking of cats, monkey and La Fonda, fountain, not working out.

Just this weird thing that they can't understand that makes a noise while they're eating. But I'm gonna stick with it. I'm gonna leave it there. I'm gonna turn it off and maybe they'll drink out of the thing when it's off and then surprise them and turn it on so they'll drink out of the running water.

That's all I wanna see for my investment of $78 or so in a ceramic cat fountain. I just want to see them drinking out of it like a water fountain. I want that to happen. I want it to happen for me. I want it to happen for everyone involved. Okay? All right. That's my hope. That's my dream. That's what's worrying me. That's what stands above all else. I'm writing a show. I'm performing a new hour of standup, but really what's worrying me that's what stands above all else i'm writing a show i'm performing a new hour of stand-up but really what's pressing is whether or not my cats will drink from that fountain now you know how i feel about david lowry now we're going to talk to david lowry uh it was a pleasure to talk to him i love this guy i love his voice i love to camper van beethoven that does have some new records out and And I also love Cracker. I loved, I saw them together.

Yeah, well, there was common members. But anyways, look, let's talk to David. It's winter and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats, but meatballs, mozzarella balls, and arancini balls? Yes, we deliver those. Moose? No, but moose head? Yes, because that's alcohol, and we deliver that too,

along with your favorite restaurant food, groceries, and other everyday essentials. Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part

of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5pm start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night

on Saturday, March 9th at 5pm in Rock city at torontorock.com howie you got cowboy boots yeah i almost bought a pair you can you still feel okay about them yeah because uh they're really comfortable man i mean you can't buy cheap ones that's the only problem my father-in-law got me a pair of these and I started wearing them again.

I used to wear them like back in the 90s. Right, me too, yeah. And my father-in-law is like, hey, you know, hey, I got this pair. What kind? A boot for you, Lucchese. Oh, the good ones. Yeah.

So he had already broken them in? No, no, no. He bought them new for me. That's fucking great. Yeah. Like I'm on the cusp now. I mean, I was in Austin. I'm bought them new for me that's fucking great yeah like i i i'm on the cusp now i mean i i was in austin i'm like do i can i do that again well you know what's funny is if you you know la is the great the thing about la is you know you have your coastal

areas you know it's like a city state or something yeah you go out to the inland empire where my family lives and stuff like that there's plenty of people who wear these with just every day sure what they wear it's cowboy country out there yeah it's like ranchers and yeah people forget that that's what the los angeles and california was built on it was fucking ranching ranching and farming that was it i know and then there was then these jews came out of nowhere and built the dream factory yeah that's right that would be well yes it's exactly yes we're gonna make something that'll accept us we're gonna create a fiction but uh i have been a huge camper van beethoven fan for many years and i'm it's very uh much an honor to have you in here well it's honored to be on your show i

followed your career you have all the twists and turns really the podcast kind of blew my mind when you how you just you brought it back man you i don't know man we were at the edge of it man you've been there haven't you yeah the edge of darkness the edge of darkness yeah well yeah yeah of course i mean you have to reinvent yourself or you have to relentlessly continue to do what you do and then just hope that everything just rolls back into alignment. Like the world aligns back to where you are, you know? That's true.

It's one or the other. If you can't, like I'm not one of those people that like if I'm going to try something else, it's just going to be me doing that. Right. It's not, I can't reinvent. I'm not David Bowie. I'm not going to, you know, put a a new outfit on try to sell that shit right i just i can't be anything but me right but i want to know some stuff because like you know i was sort of fascinated with the with

the whole uh camper undertaking it was always a mystery to me i think i came at it sort of late i met a dude in boston he was he hadlocks, and he gave me my first camper record, and I'd never heard it before, and this was 1989. Right. So I was like, where the fuck are these guys from? Where did that, well, let's talk about you. Like, it was a kind of music, I'd never heard anything like it before. Right.

You guys were doing something that just didn't sync up with anything that I quite understood, and I thought it was amazing. Well, I think that has a lot to do with the fact that we didn't really come from anywhere. My father was in the Air Force, so I lived. My mother's English, so I was like- She's English-English? English-English. Like British accent English?

Yeah. Well, she can go back and forth when she needs to. Wait, so where'd you- She's been in the United States for like, I don't know, since the 50s. But, you know, she goes back and forth. Did your dad meet her on tour of some kind? Well, yeah, it was called the World War II, but it was post-World War II, actually. He took a prisoner.

Yeah, well, I guess you could kind of say a war bride, exactly. But that's usually the other side. Now, my father was in the Air Force, and he met her in Britain and, you know, in England, south of England in 1953. And see, the thing is, is to people in her generation, you know, the gang, you know, and like you go to England, they're like, wow, gangster hip hop or something like that. Yeah. It was really cool, right?

Right. Well, to her generation, you know, hillbilly music was, you know, so here's this guy from Arkansas, you know. That's this guy from arkansas you know that's where your dad's from yeah you know it's like he's in the air force yeah he listens to country music which is like the gangster hip-hop to them of 1953 you know well like hank and and yeah hank williams yeah yes that's that's amazing my and you know then my mom you know is pretty good was a pretty good or is not so much anymore but it's a pretty good record collector and like man i'm checking out she has like these like 78s of hank william eps and stuff like that i'm like mom this stuff belongs in a museum like to know donate this stuff to the library of

congress yeah you know does she still have it yeah it's amazing to see those old records so okay so you your dad's from arkansas but you know, some of that British, not so much English, but Irish music made its way into country music early on. Yeah, absolutely. A lot of that pace. Yeah. And, I mean, it's a, you know, that was country, bluegrass, all that is very, you know, a lot of that comes from the British Isles.

Yeah. And then it mixes with the African influence in the South. It's amazing. And that's how you get American music. And you grew up with- You always have those two strains through all of it. Yeah. Did you grow up with the country music?

Well, yeah, because my mom was English and my dad was from Arkansas. So, yeah, that's what we listened to a lot. But they listened to a lot of rock and roll. I mean, I remember we lived in, you know, my father got transferred to all these places. Where were you born? I was born in Texas. So you're Texan. Yeah.

And Texans kind of like being Jewish. Yeah. It's like, you know, even if you only lived there for three years, they're like, yeah, you're a Texan. You know, so we go and play and like. One of our own. Awesome. His bag.

Yeah. Texan. David Lowery. Texan led. Camper Van Bata. But it's like, you know. Well, you got the boots's like, you know, you got the boots, you got the shirt. I got the boots.

I got the shirt. Yeah. So where'd you end up living? What were the sort of primary influences? Well, we lived in Spain and then, you know, my, my father got sent to Korea. We're living in Spain. My mom becomes more or less fluent in Spanish. Do you?

What? Yeah. Not really, but I can say the nouns of a lot of stuff. Right, right, right. Sure, sure. I usually, I've pretty much only been attracted to Spanish girls or girls who have some Spanish blood in them for most of my life. Yes.

That's just, that's imprints on your brain in some way. How old were you when you lived there? I thought I met a Southern girl, right? My current wife, she's a concert promoter. She has the 40 watt, right? Yeah. I thought I met a Southern girl. And then I was like, what kind of name is Valina?

You know, it's like, oh, it's Spanish. Her family came from Spain, you know? It's just like, oh, I can't escape it. It's better to be compelled towards an ethnic disposition than some sort of craziness. Well, I think, yeah, my wife isn't crazy. Good. My wife, my wife is not crazy, but as I am prone to point out to her, look, we're a teasing family.

We say shit like this to each other all the time. That's how we stay together. Yeah. Okay. Sure. I am always telling her it's like, okay, so normal girl is here and crazy girl is right here right it's not very much it's not too much different yeah because she was asking me why do dudes date crazy women i go well it's you know really not that much different when you put it on a linear scale there yeah but there's

also the argument as you get older family sure she can take it right there's also the argument that once you get cynical the the other side of that is like, they're all crazy. Yeah. Yeah. That's exactly. That's sort of what I'm saying in a very diplomatic way. Okay.

And getting away with it. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. And that's that. So how long do you live in Spain?

What were the formative? Five years, like seven, six to 11. Oh, that's important. Something like that. Yeah. So right when you're starting to sortative? Five years, like seven, six to 11. Oh, that's important. Something like that, yeah. So right when you're starting to sort of like go boobs, you know, towards the end. Just about. Yeah, right, yeah.

Just right about there. Yes, exactly. So that's probably imprinted. That's probably what the imprint is in my brain, you know. Yeah, Spanish boobs. Yeah, so. Where's that song? Yeah, exactly.

And then, okay, so where do you go after that uh we went to southern california this was going to tell you is my father gets transferred to korea so my mom is sent he knows his next assignments in southern california like out in the inland empire right you know out by san rodino riverside right um and he knows his next assignments there and uh so my sense my you, my mom basically comes out and finds a house for us My mom just kind of bought a house in the barrio. Yeah Empire we were coming from Spain tonight everybody spoke Spanish at home. She spoke Spanish, you know, she's like this must be what this is here Yeah, and so that's we lived in Northside Redlands and and so it was a nice And so we lived in Northside Redlands.

And so it was a nice, slow transition for me from Sevilla, Spain to the Inland Empire. Did you do any Conjuntos tunes? Did you do any of that Polka? Well, yeah, we did do a lot of the Spanish. I mean, the last album has, well, the one that we put out last year, La Costa Perdida, has like a straight up, you know, I don't know what

you got it's generically norteno you know polka mexican polka mexican polka with that with uh with the horns no not with the horns it's just more uh the more country style stuff we really should have an accordion but polka yeah right yeah it's a two-step yeah yeah i mean i listen to these but i don't have the song list in my head. All right, so then how do you end up in, because where did you meet the other guys? Well, we started actually in the Inland Empire. Chris Mullen, Victor, and I were from there,

and Chris Peterson, the drummer, was from Escondido, which is just really a fancy, gussied-up Inland Empire, really, ultimately. Yeah. And the three of us met there, but we immediately went away to college at Santa Cruz. So that was it. Yeah. And then that also is a, you know, that was a weird place.

It was sort of like the hippies had left San Francisco and gone down to Santa Cruz. And then this weird like sort of technology math science kind of weird thing going on there right and you had these really eclectic kind of you know punk hippie hybrid bands and like surf bands and you know so that was also important and that was all coming that's all in like the first record all of of those influences are there. Yeah, like the Norteno Mexican stuff. And then, oh, and the other thing that we used to do is when we first started, we would play for all these punk bands. I mean, we opened for people like the Dead Kennedys. And Camper Van Beethoven was a side band to our punk bands, right?

Yeah, I don't know. What was your first band? My first band, well... right? Yeah. I don't know. What was your first band? My first band,

well, I guess the first band that actually ever played out anywhere was a band called Sitting Duck. Uh-huh. And it was sort of, it was, you know, some of the camper songs

come from there, but it was definitely more punk rock. Right. Fun punk rock. Yeah, yeah. And then we were in- You already seemed to have a pretty good spirit about things.

Yeah, we had kind of funny songs. You weren't angry. Yeah, we, yeah, yeah, largely not angry, good spirit about things. Yeah. We had kind of funny songs. You weren't angry. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Largely not angry. Not publicly. Yeah.

And yeah, only in the dressing room. But we had that. And then I was in something called the Estonian Gauchos. Pretty much was Camper Van Beethoven. Right. But we just changed the name to Camper Van Beethoven the next summer. Where'd that name come from? Camper Van Beethoven the next summer. Where'd that name come from? Camper Van Beethoven.

Well, there's this guy. One of the founding members is this guy who is a really interesting guy. Which guy? David McDaniel. He really only plays in the first couple months of the band, but he had this really funny sense of humor. Well, no, funny like, I mean, I don't think anybody understood Andy Kaufman at the time. Right.

But he totally did. He got it. Right. So, he would do this stuff where he would make up these jokes that had all the rhyme and rhythm of a joke, but it never really made sense, right? It had all the pieces to it, and they weren't funny, but he would do these things, right?

So that was kind of part of him naming the band. It's like, oh, this is going to sound like it means something, but it doesn't. So now how does a guy only last in a band two months? What happened to that guy? Well, because we moved to Santa Cruz, and we wanted him to come with us. Oh, from the Inland Empire.

From the Inland Empire. But he was very religious and he felt like he had a calling to become a minister. And he did that. He's still a minister. Really? Yeah. So he's not absurd anymore. Or maybe he's more absurd than he's ever been in his life.

I'm not really sure. He's a pretty funny guy. To go from Andy Kaufman to ministry yeah it's questionable his intention yeah exactly i don't know i that's a that's a good that's a good question but he seems sincere to me so when it was so on that first record which was what landslide telephone landslide wait landslide for telephone free landslide victory sorry so who who was the lineup on that okay so that's the route that's anthony gas yeah it's his real name um and uh which is funny because people go what's your last name kevin and he went by kevin too for no apparent

reason go gas um so um so there was anth Guest Chris Mola Victor Krumenacher Jonathan Sagal and myself David Lowry Jonathan Sagal the fiddle player the fiddle player

who when we moved to Santa Cruz then Jonathan Sagal comes into the band and this you know gets very interesting you met him down there

we didn't meet him we met him in Santa Cruz not until we went to Santa Cruz did we meet him what was he up to because like he he's sort of defining in the sound. Absolutely defining. Yeah.

That's the great moment is because before that, we were like this kind of punk band, this side project. Yeah. Crewmanocker, Mola. Yeah. Actually, most of them. Victor's the bass player. Victor's the bass player. And the guitar player's name is, that's Greg? There's also Greg Leischer, too. Right. Yeah. Actually, you know, most of- Victor's the bass player. Victor's the bass player.

And the guitar player's name is, that's Greg? There's also Greg Leischer, too. Right. Yes. But he's the guy with you now, still. Yes. He comes in on the second album. Yeah.

He's good. It's just a bit, yeah. And it's just a big mixed up family. It's hard to follow all of this, but- But yeah, I always wonder how that happens, though. Like, you know, because- I never tried to talk anybody to stay in the band. That's how that happens.

But it almost seemed like a fairly like some sort of weird communal 60s model. Well, it still kind of is. I mean, yes, we more or less try to do stuff on consensus, although every once while somebody will seize control, like, you know, Ty Coup d'etat or something like that and mix a song differently than the way everybody else you know what I mean it's more or less there's more or less it operates more or less on a consensus because it seems like at least in the first few records that

everybody was represented that it's sort of like okay we'll do that thing we'll do your thing and then we'll do this thing and you know I mean it was our own record label so we got to do that we did then we'll do this thing. And, you know, I mean, it was our own record label. So we got to do that. We did whatever we wanted to. Right.

So, okay. So what was compelling about meeting Sagal? Well, Jonathan played guitar, but he was walking around with a violin. We were at UC Santa Cruz, you know, go banana slugs. He was walking around with a violin. And so I walked up to him. I go, do you play that? He goes, well, I'm learning to play.

I was like, perfect. Because that was the point with a violin. And so I walked up to him. I go, do you play that? He goes, well, I'm learning to play. I was like, perfect. Because that was the point of the band. We were all in these other bands and we were all learning different instruments. I was a bass player, but I was learning to sing and play guitar. You came up doing bass? Yeah. And Victor, but he's a bass player, right? Well, that's how I started.

Victor was a student of mine and he was my sister's friend. You were a bass teacher? Well, informally. It was like my sister's friend wants to play bass. Okay, I'll show you how to play bass. Right. So you knew him when you were a kid? Yeah.

Like what age? Oh, he was probably 15 or 16. Uh-huh. That's wild. Yeah. Yeah. I was in college, though, by then. Yeah.

Okay, so Jonathan's like, yeah, I'm learning to play fiddle. Yeah, and we're like, perfect. Hey, and and by the way we have all these fake eastern european songs uh do you know how to play this kind of stuff he goes well i am jewish so um klezmer yeah you know that's right you do have those weird songs what i'm trying to i think i can say this because i've been told i'm uh i always say this wrong mishpuka oh mishpuka. Oh, mishpuka. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm told I can say this. Yeah, yeah, you are.

Sure. I'll let you be mishpuka. You're mishpuka here. Yeah, okay. You mean like, what songs are those? Like Vlad Vostok? Vlad Vostok. Yeah.

And I mean, it really was just us sitting in the- The Balaika Gap? Yeah. We were just sitting in the Inland Empire going, what would Eastern European, what would Russian ska sound like? And the reason we played the ska songs songs because we played with punk bands and they didn't like our hippie vibe until we played the ska songs so we could get away with like three psychedelic songs until they were like about ready to kick our asses and then we're like okay quick play a ska song you know and play these

songs and they'd love us again you know that's where that came from that's the only reason it got into the into the set appeasing skinheads appeasing keeping trying to keep our asses kicked i mean remember this is the inland empire you know there's not like any irony there right in that kind of like punk rock world right right is that where the that but you did the take the skinheads bowling was like i i would say arguably the first hit yeah it was definitely the first but that wasn't on that still the hit that wasn't on that record oh no it is on the first hit. Yeah, it was definitely the first hit. But that wasn't on that record. It's still the hit. That wasn't on that record.

Oh, no, it is on the first record, Telephone Freelance Life History. It is. Yes, it is. Okay, all right. So that was your sort of ironic shot across the bow. That's right. To the people that bullied you.

Right, exactly. Exactly. In Scott music. Except the whole point of that song was it wasn't really supposed to mean anything. Right. Right. It wasn't like each line was supposed to like, the line following was supposed to disrupt

any meaning that had come from the line previous. And because everybody was so serious. Yeah. You know, it's 1983. Everybody was really serious. We were all going to like, you know, we were oppressed, man. Yeah. We're going to overthrow all gonna like you know we were oppressed man yeah we're gonna overthrow the man you know i mean everything was so serious you there wasn't an idea that you were gonna overthrow the man well not by the time we were in camper van beethoven i don't think was it the mid 80s yeah it was 83 84 85 before we ever actually put it that's the

formative period and then we put out an album in 85. But Psychedelic at that time was- Was coming back. It was for that first wave. Well, right about the time, yeah, you start having Green on Red and Dream Syndicate and Rain Parade. But you guys went way out there. I mean, you're doing like old Pink Floyd covers and like some of this stuff is just chaos.

Yeah, total chaos. Well, can you just tell me, there's a couple of things. I have weird favorite camper songs. Okay. Like, well, I like the day that Lassie went to the moon a lot. And I like, it's not on this album. That's not on the first album. I like Interstellar Overdrive, but I also likehuh. And going into We Saw Jerry's Daughter.

What is that about? We Saw Jerry's Daughter? Yeah. We Saw Jerry's Daughter is about us literally seeing Jerry Garcia's daughter. I knew it. Just sort of walk. Somebody goes, hey, that's Jerry Garcia. I think we were in Eugene, Oregon, and she was walking down the street.

Somebody's elbowing us and saying, hey, that's Jerry Garcia's daughter. It was somewhere in Oregon. So that had to be what it was about. So, I mean, somebody's elbowing us and saying, hey, that's Jerry Garcia's daughter. It was somewhere in Oregon. So that had to be what it was about. So, I mean, that's Can't Prevent Beethoven. We just, look, you just, we just would write a song about that kind of stuff, you know, and like sort of have it done by lunch and recorded by, you know, dinner.

Well, you did a Garcia cover on the, what, the second, first Cracker album? The second Cracker album. Which is one of my favorites. Yeah, Loser, yeah. What? Hunter Garcia's track. Yeah.

Yeah, so, yeah. What impact did they have on you early on? I mean, were they important? God, you know. Because no one likes to talk about that. Oh, well, yeah. Well, here's the thing. This is like some guilty pleasure for rock guys.

The Dead are fucking great. Yeah, and we got to play with The Dead, too. You did? Yeah, yeah. You did? Yeah. Yeah. It was pretty awesome. So, well, the thing was, is probably in 83, if you asked me if the Dead were cool, I probably would think about my sister.

Yeah. I was probably listening to some Dead with some logins and Messina and some other stuff. And I probably lumped it all together. Right. You know what I mean? But by about 87 or 88, like I was really getting it and Jonathan Sagal had always been a deadhead and kind of turned me onto some good things

and stuff like that. Yeah. And I remember the moment that I heard the song, The Loser, because that's not on a dead album. Right. It's only on a Garcia album. Like the first Garcia album.

Yeah. And or it's on a live tape and I remember that my roommate had come home and he was totally drunk and he thought i was out of town and he comes home and puts on the stereo starts blasting this garcia song right the loser and i kind of finally come stumbling into the bedroom because oh i'm so sorry i woke you up i was like no who the fuck is this man yeah this is great you know and that was the moment being woke up at three in the morning heard a uh uh you know well garcia song but a grateful dead song that was the moment that i got converted you know to the dead you know it's like wait a minute i totally understand this now

you know what i mean well i mean like those studio records the first few studio records are at least like uh workman's dead and american beauty and uh terin and stuff. I mean, it's real shit. Yeah. I mean, they put a lot of time in. Yeah. And they just, who was doing stuff like that then? And they were the ultimate DIY band. The other thing is because sort of structurally

Camper Van Beethoven really related to the dead. It's like, hey, they just kind of did it themselves. Right. They built this community around them. We used to have this little camper van beethoven newsletter snail mail and stuff like that you know we in a lot of ways were you know we were had our own label you know structurally we were very similar you know right and what although much much much less popular right but did you guys wait you had this sort of, what would you call your success at the first four albums?

I mean, because like I got to you somehow. And we toured the world. I mean, we had a top five album on college radio and we probably, I think that first,

I think Take the Skinheads Bowling did crack the top 40 in England. But, you know, I mean, it's some kind of success. What's the song about LBJ pissing alongside LBJ's Cadillac? Joe Stalin's Cadillac.

I love that song. Yeah. I'm just going to sit here and be that guy. That was a great song, man. Dictators of all kinds, you know, sort of left and right. But that sort of shows your politics. Yeah, we were sort of anarchists sort of you know it's like but when you were started out the punk scene were you in that world where

you know you would sort of go do gigs at the behest of fans who would set you like i've talked to guys who started in punk and you know a lot of times when when punk rock you know popular punk rock bands they just hire locals to open for them. Were you sort of that guy in San Francisco? Yeah, well, well, well,

a little broader than that. You know, we had some, we had a fan, one of the guys who was one of the, I guess you'd call him an executive.

He was one of the executives at SST Records. Right. He was the promotion and publicity guy, was a big fan of ours. Yeah. And,

or a real believer in us and he would hook us up with gigs every once well i knew the meat puppets yeah not through that world but just incidentally because i went to college with somebody they went to high school with right right and that song history of utah is sort of about the m Desiree Empire or whatever like that, but it's also about the two meat puppet brothers. Kirkwood. Yeah, Kirk and Chris. It's sort of about them because I knew this guy, Chris, and he was friends with them.

And I went to visit them and his family in Phoenix one time. We hung out with the Kirkwoods and they were just, they were off the hook, man. I mean, it's just, they were off the hook, man. Yeah. I mean, it's just, they were out there, man, you know. So, we got shows with the Mieschroffettes. Did you drop some shrooms and go out to the desert? Yeah, I think we were doing a little more, it was a little more like vandalism that we were doing. I think we were more drunken stoned and committing some vandalism, which I'm not sure what the statute of limitations are probably over with by now.

But I guess that makes sense because, you know, the me puppets sort of come from the butthole surfers idea of like, because he talked to Kirkwood and he's not willing to sort of classify the type of music. Yeah, right. And I think Camper does that as well. Yeah. You're hard to classify, which in the music business, it's like, exactly. And I think Camper does that as well. Yeah. You're hard to classify, which in the music business,

it's like, well, we can't count on you to repeat yourself, so I don't know if we can get behind this. Right, exactly. It's a difficult thing that, yeah. Well, except that, you know, we did eventually sign to Virgin, which was a major label,

and they did have a history of signing these kind of screwball acts all the time. But you guys, but those records are Beloved Revolutionary Sweetheart and Key Lime Pie. Those are still camper records. Oh, yeah, absolutely. It's not like you said, like, we got to reel it in. Yeah, we got to, we need to put some big drums on this.

Yeah, right. Yeah, you know. What's the ones, let's just do Take the Skinhead Bowling over and over again. Yeah, yeah, yeah. In different forms. Yeah, yeah. Let's get a dance floor hit of this, you know.

You need to buckle to that. And I just realized that that record, not those records, but the Camper Van Beethoven self-titled record is like your fourth record. Yes, that one is,

yeah, that's actually the third. But yes. Yeah, we wanted to confuse people, so we just put out the self-title. Actually, we were following Led Zeppelin. Uh-huh. So, isn't their fourth record the self-titled record?

Oh, is that the big one? That's the one that everybody calls Zoso. Zoso. Actually, the third Camper record actually does have a title, but we didn't tell anybody what it was. Right. It was just two and three? was just what is two and three no there's two and three is before that written in the remember vinyl you could write things in

the groove the inner groove of the record yeah scratched in the inner groove of the record is soviet spies swim upstream disguised as trout uh-huh okay that's actually the title of that album but now i gotta go look at my copy you We're going to go in after this, and you're going to show that to me. Okay, yes. Because I think I have an original pressing of that. Soviet Spies, Swim Upstream, Disguised as Trout, right? And that was simply because we used to get crazy fan letters, and somebody wrote us a letter saying,

We dreamed your next album was called Soviet Spies, or I dreamed your next record. Maybe they did say we, which is even crazier, right? Yeah. I dreamed your next record maybe they did say we which is even crazy right yeah i dreamed your next album is called was called soviet spies swim upstream disguised as trout yeah so we go well that's that's actually the title of the new album so and that was a big record for for camper fans yeah yeah we had uh good guys and bad guys on that we started to get on mtv a little bit it's a great record man yeah how'd that sell um well you know in those days i think like if you sold like you were an

indie band and you sold like 25 30 000 copies of a record that was pretty good nowadays you know that almost put you in the top 20 so you guys sold that many records yeah 25 or 30 000 on our own label, too. What was the name of that label? It was called Pitch a Tent Records. And which is the one that you play backwards stuff? Is that Five Sticks? Oh, yeah, that's the Five.

The Five Sticks is where we play along to another song backwards. We did that a lot throughout our career. We did that pretty much on every album. How does that work? Was it a Zeppelin song or was it your song? Did you do it? No, the first album, remember um jonathan victor and i decided to listen to it backwards your first album and we were going wow there's some good songs on this backwards i mean we really we were the real deal i mean we really did take like mushrooms and smoke pot i

mean we really did all that crazy you know i don't do any of that stuff, you know. Yeah. Anymore? Anymore. And for quite a long time, actually. Yeah. Nothing. Yeah.

Me too. Yeah. 15 years. Yeah. Nothing. Did you hit a wall? Nine years for me. Yeah.

I hit, I, yeah, I have my. So you're sober. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Me too. Yeah. That's why I asked if we knew some of the same people. Oh, yeah.

Well, then we know all the same people. Yes, we do know all the same people. We're all the same people. Oh, yeah. Well, then we know all the same people. Yes, we do know all the same people. We're all the same ilk. Yeah, that's right. Well, what album were you on when that fucking came crashing down? Greenland by Cracker. Oh, really? I was writing that album.

That's why that album starts with the song that it starts with. I'm trying to think that. It called something you ain't got it's a cover song but i'd been like sober by for about maybe three weeks or something out of your mind and yeah and uh i was like yeah and on tour with widespread panic how does that work and uh you did it though that's one of those great if you that's the first obstacle you get past sober you're like yeah i can do this yeah i can do it yeah i remember we were in the gorge in walla walla washington or now near what where is that place that place where they have the where they have the sasquatch sasquatch yeah man and there's a little town

next to it yeah and i remember we were in the hotel the night before. I go, God, I better go find a meeting somewhere. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I found it, and I went over there to a meeting. I was just sitting there, and one of the guys came over. He goes, he says, so what are you doing in town? You're not from here. I go, I'm playing widespread panic up at the gorge.

And he goes, why don't I come along with you for the next couple days i love that story did he yes that's amazing i don't remember the guy's name or anything yeah it was pretty awesome those kind of things always choke me up you know yeah once you've been in the racket long enough you know there's a narrative to things where yeah when when someone actually helps somebody out is very touching yeah yeah and you know it was great about it was you know the guy was really of modest means just judging by his car and he didn't know who you were he not not really not until we went up yeah you know did you have a good time yeah i had a great time and that was the cracker that was a that was well that was actually both camper van beet Beethoven and Cracker played those shows together.

I'm pretty sure both played those shows together. It was Camper Van Beethoven had just become reformed. The Camper Cracker tour. I saw that in Irving Plaza. Yeah, and so we did some shows with Widespread Panic. But anyway, the first song on Greenland is somewhere in that week there. Somebody played me a song by this band called American Minor, a demo of theirs. Yeah.

And I heard this song. I was like, whoa. Spoke to you. Yeah. Like a fucking kick in the balls. Right. And sort of, and, you know, I don't know. And something really exhilarating at the same time.

And you had a cover. Yeah. Yeah. You've done a few covers over the time. Yeah. You don't mind doing covers. No. No, I don't, man.

Well, those two records you did with Virgin were great records. I loved them. And you brought a lot more to the production of those records. And that song, Jack Ruby, I love that song. You just made two big camper records. Right. And then Pictures of Matchstick Men, that was a great cover. Yeah.

Why'd you decide on that one? Well, this is when, so I was just trying to explain this to somebody the other day. This is when the music business was good, okay? This is when, and I don't mean like money-wise. I just mean like it was operated more in a fly-by-the-seat-of-the-pants kind of way. We put Pictures of Matchstick Men on that album because we had played that song apparently at some theater in downtown LA and the vice president of promotion for Virgin Records, the first time he had ever seen us,

he took mushrooms and he came to see us and that was the first song we played. So for three years on Virgin Records, he's like, you've got to record Pictures of Magic Man. I was so high when you did that song, right? I mean, that's the old music business. There's no focus groups. There's no big-time producers being brought in

and stuff like that. It's like, I don't know. And you didn't mind doing the cover. You love the song, obviously. Well, it was a little controversial within the band to do a cover on that album because that album was so specific and what was it specific it was just a little darker and a little more introspective and stuff like that we actually recorded that song for our beloved revolutionary sweetheart left it off ended up redoing it to make it fit uh sonically

in with key lime pie so it could be on key lime pie but it was a little that was a little controversial you know it was just like it was just one of those things where we had the album minus uh pictures of matchstick man it is a dark record i'm yeah i'm looking at it now and you know just sort of when it got when it got to the point where sort of like our manager who was by no means a traditional rock manager i mean he was he grew up with us and he was a hippie dude from oregon you know this is like no by no means a traditional rock manager not in any way trying to make us sell out right said i think you need just kind of one happy song on this record you know that's when i knew it's like okay all right

because you know the record vice president of promotion had just been bugging us for to do that for years so all right let's let's just we'll have one song that's not sort of introspective and down tempo on the album we put it on there thank god we did because nothing else got on the radio that was the only thing that got on the radio so was that your but did you always think in those terms i mean i have to assume that being no but but if you know you didn't think about being on the radio right but it certainly helped yeah once you did get i mean it it you know you're just playing for more people you know and being on the radio for camper van beethoven in those days that meant you know you're talking about 30 commercial stations in the country you're not talking about everywhere you're talking about

uh a k rock that was it for alternative rock or modern rock there's 30 stations you know and plus you know mtv could be pretty good too so what back in the day yeah what um now but that was it for a while for camper i mean yes we broke up we were in uh sweden and jonathan had we'd gone our we'd mutually sort of well no we're not really mutually but the four the the four of us in kind of four of us ganged up on Jonathan. And we decided that we couldn't really work with him on that key lime pie record. And we booted him out.

Yeah. We, it was a tough decision. Years later, he's back in the band. And I do have to say this i mean and he might understand this there was no way we could have made key lime pie with jonathan at that time why because he just he wasn't in a good place to do that album. He wasn't going to play less.

He wasn't going to play, I don't know. I don't really remember what the arguments were. He didn't want to rein it in. Well, but it wasn't really like we were reining it in. We were just sort of leaving all this space in the album. He didn't want to leave the space in the album. Fundamentally, there was also the problem that, you know, the record company clearly favored the songs that I was, you know, sort of being the instigator on.

You know, when you write things collectively, there's always somebody, though, who's the real, kind of tends to be the instigator of the song. And, you know, and that sort of starts to become apparent to everybody. It's like, well, the record company likes his songs. And, you know, I don't know. So they create band dynamics that may lead to bad places. Yes.

Whereas if we were still on our own label, I'm not sure that we wouldn't have also broken up. But there wouldn't have been like, you know, there starts being an outside sort of influence. Sure. But you wrote most of the lyrics. I write most of the lyrics that I sing. Yes. Why, why did you,

I just, I forgot that you covered Oh Death, which is a traditional. Yeah. What was that about? I like the cover. There's a band that is very much our predecessor from the Inland Empire, oddly, called Kaleidoscope. David Lindley came from that band.

He's trippy. Yeah. And nobody really knew who this band was except for a few old hippies and this guy that worked at SST Records who was a big, you know, supported us. Yeah. And he said, so, man, you guys must be really influenced by Kaleidoscope. And we're like, who's that? He goes, you don't know Kaleidoscope? I mean, they're from your home area.

Right. How do you not know Kaleidoscope, right? So he went to his record collection, made us like three cassettes worth of Kaleidoscope tapes. And we went and listened to it and we go, holy shit, this is kind of what we do and one of the things is they do they cover that song oh death and we thought oh well we've got to do oh death now that is just dark as shit you know like and it fits kind of with what we're doing

let's do that and you just saw yourself that you know after you listen to it that you know whatever happened in terms of what was defining your sound at that time was what came about in earnest but you you realize that when you listen to kaleidoscope that there was a precedent for for you know where you were going and there's no shame in that right it was just a mixture of like i don't know i mean they were doing this in 67 66 now i gotta go listen to them Yeah. And obviously you guys were doing, you never got into that pigeonhole where it's sort of like, well, this is the camper sound.

This is the camper system. This is the camper. Well, there is a little bit of a camper system. It's mentioned, and it's in the lyrics, it's mentioned psychedelic drugs, some kind of oddball conspiracy theory and UFOs. Yeah. Pretty much.

But anyway, but yeah. But you know what I mean? it wasn't like there was not uh this massive hit record that you had to fucking chase for your life no yeah no all right so you guys break up and it doesn't sound like it was a good breakup well you know we i think there was a writer for the new york press who had the description of camper van beethoven's that breakup that i always use because it is the most apt yeah and it wasn't he says something like basically that we didn't explode in this fireball like most bands that we just sort of disintegrated like a urinal cake yeah which you know is cut like john we sort of like you can't do this album with you jonathan you know get out and you know and then there was also the side band within camp and i guess

success was the stream of urine that was coming dissolving yes the the lack of mainstream yeah yes or the the pressures that those bring on you and stuff like that is the urine that's coming down there's the monks of doom which is you know the side band within camper van beethoven which tips it hat really heavily towards prog rock you know which was not really that cool at that time but it was kind of underground but you weren't were you in that no i wasn't in that you know that's another piece so they that sort of was happening at the same time camper was happening and you know jonathan did his solo albums and jonathan goes off then we bring in david immerglück who had sort of played with monks of doom he ends up you know uh we bring him in anyway eventually the band

you know the monks of doom guys leave camper van beethoven which leaves me with immerglück and morgan victor who are essentially new to the band right and i mean i'm just like i'm i can't we can't call this camper van beethoven you can't you can't do that right you know what i mean yeah like the record company were like you should just put another band together you should do this blah blah you know just sort of gently pushing us back not like any bad vibe right things but just like you know gently telling all you should put together a new camper van beethoven you know but cracker didn't turn out to be that at all no i mean like to me it was yeah right exactly it was interesting because like i couldn't wrap my brain around monks of doom i tried i just it's

just not my thing and and cracker the first cracker album I was like holy fuck because it seemed to me that you had the freedom to do more you know sort of traditionally structured pop songs in a way right right and you know and it was rock it was pretty straight up your voice is you know uh you know unique to the point where you know it's it's you know you can't you can't deny it I mean everyone knows your voice right it's great and and you were doing, you know, you can't deny it. I mean, everyone knows your voice. Right. It's great. And you were doing like, you know, pretty tight, just rock songs. Yeah, just straight up kind of three, four chord rock songs, you know, and with my two buddies from the Inland Empire.

Well, I knew Davey. I saw you at Slim's in San Francisco when I lived in Slim's. I was probably touring on that first album. You lived in Slim's? No, close. Close by. I didn't go there often, but I was a fan of that first record. And then years later, I met Davey.

He plays with Elvis Costello now. But I remember when he was playing with you, he was wearing a kilt, I think. Yeah. No, I think it actually was a Catholic schoolgirl's uniform, actually. Well, yes, you're giving him the benefit of the doubt. Actually, I remember when Davey got that Catholic schoolgirls uniform, actually. Well, yes, you're giving him the benefit of the doubt. Actually, I remember when Davey got that Catholic schoolgirls uniform. We were in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, and we were playing a place called the Art Bar, and across the street was a Catholic school supply place.

And he goes, and he says, I'm going to go over and get a Catholic schoolgirls uniform. And I'm like, oh, really? I'm going to go watch this. We go in there. It's Baton Louisiana. I mean, I don't think we're in the Bible Belt. Maybe we're in the crotchless panties of the Bible. The conflicted Bible Belt.

Yeah, and he asks for a Catholic schoolgirl's uniform. And the woman says, what size is your daughter? And he goes, oh, it's not for my daughter. It's for me. And she goes, oh, OK. And she walks up. It's for me. And she goes, oh, okay. And she walks up to the door, locks it, turns the sign around like it's an everyday occurrence. What do you mean?

Why'd she lock you in? She was going to outfit him in a Catholic school girl. But she didn't want anyone else coming in? Yeah, she didn't want anybody else coming in, but she was perfectly fine with it. Like it happens all the time. This is what I do. This is protocol. Put the sign around, all the time. This is what I do. This is protocol.

Put the sign around, lock the door. This happens. This happens. It's the South. It's Louisiana. Was that the tour of that first album, though? Yeah, that was the first. Well, that was actually even before the first album.

I think we did two weeks on the road. We just went down Highway 10 to Jacksonville. But so there you are. You do this band after camper that that's really your own thing and that's the thing that pops yeah oddly just the right place the right well not even really the right place at the right time because it's really rootsy it's just that and and you know i mean you got to remember that was that album comes out like four months after nirvana's album or something like that. Right.

You know? Yeah. It's the height of grunge. There's country songs on that record. Oh, I know. There's like Rolling Stone style blues rock songs on that album. But we have enough tracks that fit with the modern rock format. It just pops.

Teen angst pops. Yeah. Teen angst. Yeah. What the world needs now. Yeah. And that was a fun, great song. Had some heart to it. Yeah. What the world needs now. Yeah. And that was a fun, great song. Had some heart to it.

Yeah. Had a good fucking build. Right. Yeah. Three chords. And you charted with that. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I don't think that album went gold at first.

It might be gold now. So you had a good run with Cracker. Kerosene Hat was great. I mean, I didn't realize you put out as many records as you did. But at Greenwood... Yeah, we're actually still making... We're actually making an album right now. And how do they sell?

I mean, how is your following held up? Well, I mean, you know, considering we started 20 years ago, I think we're doing pretty good. I mean, we still play... I always joke that we've been playing the same places for 25 years i mean we're playing like the we're not playing slims but we're playing the independent but you see but now you're seeing people our age with kids yeah that right try to play a lot of stuff that's like outdoors and in the day is what we do right because we get a lot more people than if we go and play in a a nightclub but i have to imagine

that given the nature of camper and given the nature of, of cracker as well, that, you know, your loyal fans are pretty decent people and they probably have kids now and they're probably, they come out and they're, they're our age.

Yeah, exactly. It's, it's interesting, isn't it? Yeah. It's interesting. Although there's,

you know, crackers definitely had this little sort of revival over the last couple of years because of the film placements right you know perks of a wallflower were pretty featured in perks of a wallflower were pretty featured in that a low is in that that's mostly low is suddenly just anytime somebody wants to set the scene in in 1993 bang you know but it you know it really has brought uh you know brought young people into our world so you know i did this uso tour of iraq where we did patrol bases and cracker did cracker did yeah in 2009 which is pretty crazy thing we did i was memorial day might as well talk about it for a second um and you know one of the things that we imagined was uh you know

you sort of imagine you could be playing for like these 21-year-old like young, because we're playing patrol bases. Yeah. We're playing in freaking Kevlar, right? Yeah. We're, you know, just meeting these 21-year-old sort of like, you know, gung-ho infantry sort of kids of the grunts, you know, and the Marines and stuff like that, right? And everything. So we're playing for them, you know, maybe we ought to play, you know, make sure we play pretty heavy on the rock

and the fast stuff and everything like that. So we step out at the first base, right? Yeah. And this one looks the part and everything. Kid walks right up to me. He's like, are you guys Cracker? I was like, yeah, we're Cracker. He goes, so awesome, man.

Will you sign this for my parents? My parents are going to be so excited when they find out that they saw you in Iraq, that you came to my my patrol but came to my base it was at a big this happened that was the first thing that happened to us like the first interaction that happened over and over again and so we're like so finally we're like well you know this is actually cool we're going over there we're making the parents feel better which is patriotic just as patriotic and supporting the troops just as well you're going to support the parents back home you know right it happened over and over again that's that's actually also they're pretty awesome though because like the higher ranking guys

were our age yeah and so we'd always get these cool things like do you want to go and eat with the three-star general you know or like go sit at his table like yeah sure we'll go over there you know but did you feel at all like that your personal politics were were well contrary yeah i mean i was against the war yeah i remember actually we're driving in this armored personnel carrier between these patrol bases with the same it was weird we had the same 16 guys with us from the 82nd airborne and um these guys were with us the whole time and at some point you know we're talking there was there was way more of a frank conversation about what had happened in iraq in iraq from usgi's than there were from americans right first of all that was just the amazing mind-blowing thing yeah just it

was and you know so at some point i we're all in these headsets we're talking on the comms between in the little caravan that we're in and i go well you know most of the guys in the you know in the band and everything here we you know we were against the war and just one of the guy goes no shit you're musicians man it's your job no shit it was never really an issue and you know at that point it was kind of the surge had happened you know it was like you know colin powell said you know if you break it you pay for it right now so i mean what were we supposed to do pull out and and let the whole... No, I get it. You know, if we were there, if we were going to be there at any point, it was sort of when, you know, we were trying to undo what we had done in some ways. And I grew up in a military family. And so none of this is political in the same way it is to a lot of other people.

Who can't make the distinction between the realities of being an enlisted person and your job and the politics of the war. Exactly. Right. But having grown up with that, your dad was a career guy, wasn't he? Yeah, he was a career guy, but he was an enlisted man, too. So he didn't make any decisions about what he was doing. Was he in the Air Force the whole way through? was he in the Air Force the whole way through He was in the Air Force the whole way through and and he was pretty sick by the time I went to

He's passed away. Now. He was pretty sick by the time I went to Iraq But you know and you know, and you know, this is an interesting thing. It's just my guy Here's my dad and we're watching some news on the television my guy here's my dad and we're watching some news on the television during you know the invasion of iraq and they sort of have invaded yeah we've invaded taken over the country and then bremer whatever announces that they're firing you know the they're disbanding the entire army and police and everything like that my dad just stands up but he's like, what on earth are you doing? Like, I mean, right. My dad stands up and says that.

What are you doing? You know, it's completely freaking out. It's like, this is, you can't do that. You can't do that. Yeah. You know, this is coming from a, and sure enough, I mean, it was a disaster. I mean, I was sitting with my dad the moment that happened. Was your dad proud of what you did? Did you guys, did you guys did

you guys have a standoff around you know like the war my dad was against the war no but i mean just as being the kid of a of a of a military guy was there actually was actually was awesome because he was like you know for the he was like you know he was always he was totally supportive of it whereas like some of the other guys that i would be in bands with or I knew in bands, their parents were very middle class or upper middle class. They were more concerned about it than my dad. My dad was always like, you can join the Air Force when you're 30. So if it doesn't work out, you know, you got a math degree. That's got to be handy somewhere.

Do you have a math degree? Yeah, I have a degree in math and math and kind of did math computers and stuff. He's right. You know, it is actually kind of handy. You'd have a math degree? Yeah, I have a degree in math. I did math and computers and stuff. He's right. It is actually kind of handy. You have a math degree? Yeah, actually. Actually, I'm getting a doctorate right now, but not in math. I'm getting a doctorate in something else.

What? I'm getting sort of a meta-doctorate in sort of the theory of higher education. How does that work? How does that come about? Because I've been teaching music business courses at a university, and basically I sort of look at universities and go this is kind of a really expensive and screwed up way to educate people in some ways for some people yeah and we should do something different so well i know you're sort of uh you know up in arms about how the music industry works and and and copyrights and and

you know publishing rights i mean you seem to be pretty pissed off um i don't know if i'm pissed off as i like somebody's got to be the wrecking ball right now somebody's got to come out and say hey you know in the old days when a record label okay this is a great story man my my my mother-in-law and my father-in-law my father and you know the stories about the old bluesman you know or the early rock and roll guys they would go down to the record company and go hey my songs on the radio where's my royalty and stuff like that and they'd go and buy him a cadillac which was worth much less right the actual royalties right so my mother-in-law worked for sun records and my father-in-law was a car dealer how the fuck do you think they met yeah i mean that shit really happened right you know yeah they were that shit

really happened so to me like i'm always been you know pretty pro technology having coming from the math computer world it's a long story i remember building our first website in like 93 or whatever like that's like i'm gonna learn html yeah and uh you know and but i guys got to the point where i just started going well you know what you know we wouldn't have put up with the old the bad old record labels paying us shit so we wouldn't put up with we shouldn't put up with this stuff. Which is, what is this stuff? Well, just, you know. Ripping off songs? Well, no, just like, mostly has to do with the rate. My real specific thing has to do with the rate that songwriters, songwriters specifically are paid by these digital services.

In the old days, the performer, in the old days, back in my day. No, but really seriously like on a on a you know on a download on an actual sale like the songwriter and the performer kind of end up with about the same amount it kind of depends on the format and the label right and all that stuff right but you go into the digital realm and it was you get 14 performer gets a well the recording gets about 14 to 1 what the songwriter does the songwriter gets a lot less in the digital world right that wasn't the way it was the opposite back in the old days if you had the publishing you had you you had it forever well you had the money coming in forever well yeah in a in a lot of ways and the reason this was done is because i believe there

was a backroom deal cut between i have no proof of this this is just me putting on a tinfoil hat i'm no proof of this i like tinfoil hats okay i'm gonna put on tinfoil hat for a second i believe there was a backroom deal cut between the record industry and the you know the beginnings of what became the webcasting and streaming industry is that one of the big expenses for record labels is having to pay the songwriters separately right even if you're a performer you wrote the song they have to pay you a separate royalty that's publishing publishing yeah right so i believe that there was a backroom deal cut between broadcasters and and what was the recording industry at the time whereby they're

like let's push these royalty rates for the songwriters down because it's going to help all in this in this format yes in the on the digital format so really specifically it's fairly confusing to a lot of civilians what i'm specifically talking about but i'm specifically talking about songwriters getting like you know sent a lot lot less you know that's where you get these royalty statements that are like 16 cents for you know 54 000 plays you know and stuff like that but how how how was the voice of the songwriter not represented in in this mythical backroom deal and in the sense that because the publishing companies are conglomerates the pub the big publishing companies are conglomerates right with record labels like Like Sony Records has its Sony Publishing.

So they're representing the songwriters, the publishing houses. But there are also the record labels, too. Right. So they just did this deal without telling you guys. Yeah. Essentially. I mean, and then there's another rationale, which is not tinfoil hat. Right.

The second rationale that's part of that is that songwriters are paid when songs are broadcast on regular radio right but performers are not right and that is also totally screwed up we're the only world company well i mean we're the only company we are a company we're not a country anymore we're a company we're all our companies yeah we're just individual companies um we're the only country in the in in the democratic sort of free world that doesn't pay the performers we only pay the songwriters right so that's screwed up radio play for radio play terrestrial what they call terrestrial radio play so that's out of balance too so what i've been trying to do is get like let's pay the performers on terrestrial radio and let's even this thing out in the digital world you know but

there was somehow some people say that there was a rationale that because songwriters were paid on terrestrial in order to even it out you had to give the performer the record well not even the performer give the record label a bigger share when it comes to digital well the weird thing is is that it's all an indication that these the the paradigms are kind of crumbling and that they're desperately trying to protect whatever investment they seem to think is getting away from them and that means cutting out the artist somehow right exactly and we wouldn't have put up with it in the old days and we shouldn't have put it up with it well now it's more confusing

because like the weird thing about the old days is that you know a record's a record so now something goes online in whatever form it's going to go online, it's like how does an artist even protect themselves? You've got to employ a lawyer. You've got to figure out who you're going to fucking sue. And it's impossible. Right. Unless you're with a label. And then you can have these large arrays of computers that run around and automatically file these notices and send or cut deals with people like SoundCloud and stuff like that.

Right. So if you're an independent artist, you're on your own and you have to make the exception. It's sort of like, well, the payoff is people know who we are. Right. Yeah. Which, you know. But that's the scam they run on you because we live in this medium. Yeah.

The hunger for content. A human being can't keep up for the hunger for content uh you a human being can't keep up for the hunger for content so they so free content is great for them and they'll try and sell you on the idea that it's good promotional use so you sign off on this shit and you and your song gets out there in the equivalent of being a hit song 20 years ago and you get nothing because you're like it's good it was for promotion right exactly it's a fucking racket it is a racket and it's and these companies that make the money off of it are even bigger than the record labels i mean they're even more powerful

you know they're lobbyists running around in dc and changing laws and stuff like that to make they own it yeah the loser is the guy in his van with his friends and their guitars right now some artists do thrive in this environment but but it's the biggest artists. So to me, it was weird is because, see, one of the things is, is that I was kind of a proponent of, you know, it's like when I first saw Piracy, I was like, oh, you know, I saw Napster. I looked at that. I go, that's going to be a problem. You know what I mean? you know what i mean but on the other hand i was optimistic for a long time i go but you know i was on an indie label but we could sell stuff directly to our fans now so maybe we're just cutting out the middleman right and i think there was actually this period that that worked really

well and then it's worked well for me but i'm not a musician yeah but yeah you know i mean there's no middleman actually in a in a weird a weird way, it doesn't actually, like, for instance, it doesn't hurt Cracker as much as it hurts Camper Van Beethoven. Because Camper Van Beethoven really did sort of never really make much money on the road, and we sort of needed to come home and have the sale of those albums that we sold. Right. and whereas cracker yeah i mean you know every summer you know it's because we've had these songs that are recurrent on rock radio i mean i could spend the entire summer playing like the wisconsin state fair and the uh you know outside of the del mar racetrack on wednesday nights they'll have a popular 90s band play you know i could spend all summer doing that you know and make just as much as money as i was making in the 90s right from the live side of things right because we are

ubiquitous we worked on having some songs that were ubiquitous camper never really worked on being ubiquitous right and so it's it's we always needed those album sales and stuff like that so it's a more difficult thing to manage that for the the medium and small sure and you sort of gotta rely on a reintroduction to camper and yeah and and you know the other thing is like another what i think people don't understand about me is what i'm saying is like i made 98 of the money that i ever was going to make in the music business and i was smart enough also to keep some of my technology chops and friends and stuff like that around and like i actually have these i've done really well like doing like i'm on a board of an angel investment fund and a tech

incubator and all that stuff i actually kind of have my foot in yeah my feet in this other world too you know yeah and it's like this doesn't make any monetarily like if the if we fix uh you know the way that songwriters are paid for streaming that's really not going to change the view out my window right yeah yeah yeah it is what it is for me but it's a fight worth fighting on well i just i feel like there's a lot of people that i know that don't have the advantages that I have. And that was one of the things was I actually made some money on this technology company about three years ago. And one of the things I did is I actually put aside a little bit of money and I go, all right, nobody's gone out there and done this since Lars Ulrich.

So you're going to do it. I'm going to go do this. I'm'm gonna do this for two years and see what happens right i'm gonna go around to all these conferences i'm gonna go to the tech conferences and say hey man you guys are ripping us off man we gotta fix this right and the predictable blowback happened it's not for it wasn't for the it's not for the week you know yeah to go and do that right oh I mean it's like you know but I don't know I feel like I made a difference I feel like the debate has changed a little bit people are thinking about this stuff I mean um they're at least it's being discussed now right and I ended up like getting in front of congress and testifying in front of congress I mean who

was the last person it was like zappa or what was it the twisted sister guy yeah who got up there like dee snyder and dee snyder yeah yeah you know it's pretty funny so is that cool um yeah it wasn't it wasn't very much like uh it wasn't like the mccarthy here it wasn't like no it's just like a handful of reporters in a room in a you know it's the ip subcommittee so it's not like the headliner right committee you know you're on the side stage you know what i mean right right but yeah it's pretty cool you know you're seeing looking up there and you're seeing these actually the weirdest thing is you know the the guys who sort of get it the most are not always the it's not always the democrats you know like people like conyers and mel watt

who have ties to like some one you know business guys yeah you know sometimes it's the sometimes it's just as much the republican guys that are coming over to you and going yeah you know i get it you're not asking for a handout you just want what you're deserved yeah i can get behind that you know yeah that's it well that's uh that's good and support is good yeah we'll see what happens so now these campers so you you took a decade off with camper basically and now you guys are you're all getting along and all is good yeah and you know i mean it's fantastic you know we talked about jonathan not being on keyline pie but as soon as we played together you know jonathan and i had started working on on other people's records together in the mid-'90s. I think we did some Sparkle Horse stuff together.

So there was five or six years we didn't hang out, but we've been sort of friends for a long time, and it's great to be back playing with Jonathan. Why'd you guys record Tusk, the Fleetwood Mac record? I have to get a copy of that. I don't have it. Okay, so Camper Van Beethoven really got back together in, say, 2001. Yeah. But we didn't really play any shows,

but we decided we'd record together again. But we decided that what we would do is there's an album called Camper Van Beethoven is Dead, Long Live Camper Van Beethoven. And it's a fake oddities record we actually just kind of recorded it and pretended it like it was an oddities record and dropped it out there yeah it's like very out kaufman what band i think we were probably influenced by andy

kaufman right you know it's like let's put out a fake oddities record as our new record we just put it out there okay oh hey we just discovered this that we were recorded uh tusk in 1987 on our four track we finally found the tapes for that that wasn't true we recorded that the whole album yeah the whole album then put it out as if it was like something that we had done in 1987 and just put out there yeah nobody noticed and so then finally we did a new album and then just like hey we're back together yeah but we did two albums that were fake things from the catalog nobody noticed nobody noticed but of course we didn't really tell anybody so i don't know how they were supposed to figure it out anyway right you know that's the kind of stuff that i gotta get to get hold of tusk yeah um so you guys are

touring on these records we're touring on these records not a huge number of shows this one is we did two halves we did a northern californ version of Camper Van Beethoven, which is a little more hippiest. That's La Costa Perdida. We put that out last year. And then this year is the follow-up, which is El Camino Real. That's Southern California? That's Southern California. Yes. Great. Do you want to do a song? Sure. What are we going to do, though? Is it from the new album? Whatever you want.

I was going to look at the words to something, but fuck it. Just haven't really played this. You know, a new album, it's funny about when you make new albums, you know? It's like there's a, you've got to learn to sing all those words. You add, like I've got like several hundred songs right now. And then you add like another 15 on top of it, right? It's like, yeah, thanks. I really needed that.

So there you go. 400 miles down the Mexican coast. $200 from being flat broke Surfed seven sisters all day long Drinking mezcal when the sun goes down I was like a grasshopper sitting on a vine Long come a senorita say you're mine Lenga gringa where you gotta go You can stay with me just on down the road

Kissing her lips and rolling on the beach baby stay here work for family down the coast there's a landing strip my brother's got a plane you can work for him

Oh Lord, let me live for one more day I'll be a good boy the rest of my days Oh Lord, if you get me out of this place I'll never stray from the straight and narrow way Oh Lord, if you give me one small sign I'll be a good boy the rest of my life for the rest of my life fat grasshopper on a sweet potato vine

she saw me coming saw me coming for miles. Gringo surfers from Northern Carolina. We fly them down to Punta Negra. Got a baby girl and she looks like mom. Black curly hair and the devil's smile federales know what we take up north Lord let me live

till I'm old and gray Oh Lord if you live for one more day I'll be a good boy the rest of my days Oh Lord, if you live for one more day I'll be a good boy the rest of my days Oh Lord, if you take me out of this place I'll never trip from the straight and narrow way Oh Lord, if you give me one small sign I'll be a good boy the rest of my life

For the rest of my life For the rest of my life. For the rest of my life. Awesome, man. Thanks so much for doing this. No problem, man. Thanks for having me. That's it.

That's our show. I enjoyed that. Nice. Nice hearing that dude sing. Nice talking to him. Oh, boy. I wonder if I'm going to hear from any of those people that I live with in Somerville. Look. Go to WTFpod.com. Check out everything there. Get the

app. Upgrade. Get the free app. Upgrade to the premium app. You can stream all 500 million shows. What else? You can leave some comments if you want to. You can get some merch. You can get some more mugs up there. I'm going to try and tell you guys about those special ceramic mugs before I put it on Twitter.

Remind me to do that. Would somebody remind me to do that? What else? What else is happening? Oh, the Trippany House. Trippany.org. Trippany House. Trippany.org. Trippany House at the Steve Allen Theater. I'll be doing shows there on November 11th and November 18th.

And I'm writing my show. And secretly having fantasies about just starting a band. What would that band be, though? Come on, man! Thank you. Boomer lives! Boomer lives! Boomer lives! Moose? No. But moose head? Yes. Because that's alcohol, and we deliver that too. Along with your favorite restaurant food, groceries, and other everyday essentials. Order Uber Eats now.

For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. We can wait for clean water solutions. Or we can engineer access to clean water. We can acknowledge indigenous cultures. Or we can learn from indigenous voices. We can demand more to clean water. We can acknowledge indigenous cultures. Or we can learn from indigenous voices.

We can demand more from the earth. Or we can demand more from ourselves. At York University, we work together to create positive change for a better tomorrow. Join us at yorku.ca slash write the future.