WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 547 - Dr. Drew

Episode Date: November 2, 2014

Dr. Drew Pinsky has been practicing medicine for more than 30 years. Along the way, he became one of America's most recognizable physicians. Dr. Drew tells Marc how he got into the family business when he really wanted to be an opera singer, how he got into show business when he was just trying to ply his trade, and how he gets down on himself because of the people who hate him. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction.

Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com. Lock the gates! All right, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck, buddies? What the fucking ears? What the fuck, sticks? What the fucks, the bulls?

What the fucking hams? Yeah, all right, all right. How are you? It's Mark Maron. This is WTF. I'm out here in the garage wearing a toque, wearing a hat. You know, when that old thermometer drops below 70 out here in Los Angeles, it's time to get the hats out.

Chili. I'm an East Coast person at heart. We're at least a seasonal person at heart. And, you know, I miss layering up. So I'll look for any opportunity to get layered up. That's just the reality of the situation. Halloween, not a successful night for me. Laid low, hung out with a friend, and, you know know, bought some candy as I always do.

I'll buy a bag of candy. I'll leave that light on, but no one's coming up my hill. You know, I don't know if it's, I imagine the kids can handle it, but maybe the parents are like, I don't need that much exercise. I don't know. I dressed up again, uh, you know, third year in the row for Halloween. I dressed up as the, uh, cranky guy in a robe yeah that was me cranky guy in a robe uh i think that somebody tweeted that uh there's no shame in the uh the crotchety wizard uh costume i don't know i don't know if i could rationalize it that far here's the problem with no one coming to get the candy because then you know what it's like fuck kids. They don't come get the candy. Who's got the candy?

I got the candy. On some level, that's a win, I guess, but now I got a bag of candy. I got the mixed bag with the Milky Ways, the Snickers, and the Twix, and the Milky Way only caramel. Where the fuck did that candy come from? I don't know about these candies these kids are eating now it's like the the old sober guy i wasn't around for uh for ice i wasn't around for ecstasy you know i missed out on oxys you know sometimes i wonder what it would have been like if i could only have had an oxy but i've been sober too long i'm missing out on all the good

candies milky way only caramel jesus that might as well be Oxy. Yeah. So I had nine of those. A couple of Twix bars. This morning, I woke up with the candy wrappers in my bed. So yeah, I'm in trouble. So I'm in trouble, man. It's a slippery slope to Oxy's. is my guest today i talked to dr drew about medication about drugs a bit i talked to dr drew about a lot of stuff i know some of you have uh you know mixed feelings about uh about dr drew but i think we had a good conversation and you know what i generally need a doctor so that worked out but i think it was thorough and i think uh you know whether you like him you don't like him you're gonna get a sense of uh who dr drew pinsky is i know i did and i was happy to talk to him so that's coming up in a second is that all right with you is that

all right with you huh is it last night i went and saw the uh tedeschi trucks band with gary clark jr at the greek i don't go to concerts but lately i've been offered to go would you like to come see uh these people yes i would now i met derrick trucks and susan tedeschi at uh at conan briefly and they gave me the record i know they're they're brilliant musicians every respected guitar player i ever talked to you know is like derrick's a dude and i don't know if i had a full sense of what he is or how he plays or where it comes from. But, man, that was one of the best shows I ever seen in my life. Do you know what it's like to be in the presence of fucking genius?

I mean, like to listen to a guy play guitar like you've never heard it played before. I don't remember ever having that feeling. Not in recent memory. When I saw Van Halen when I was in high school, I was wasted and I threw up. I don't think I really appreciated it. But this is different, man. I mean, look, as sort of a blues head,

slide guitar is not unfamiliar to me. But to hear somebody play it with a type of virtuosity where they take what you know and they just turn it inside out and make it into something that you've never heard before. I mean, it's a slide, man. But he was doing this Indian style stuff and this like his groove and his sense of timing and phrasing is completely original. I couldn't fucking deal. I mean, it's like because I'm not. I am judgmental.

But, you know, I guess I'm a little cynical or maybe a little like, it's not as easy for things to get through if they aren't completely manipulative with me. Or, you know, in my brain somehow just sort of like to box things or categorize it. But, you know, right when he started playing, I was like, where is this coming from? Do you know what a great feeling that is? And all of them were great. The horns were great. She's amazing. Her singing is amazing.

She's a great guitar player. The keyboard guy was great. Gary Clark Jr. before him was awesome. This is weird because it actually probably would have been a better intro for Thursday. Because Jimmy Vivino, the leader of the basic cable band on Conan O'Brien, also a virtuoso and a behind-the-guy guy. And I mean that, you know, he's like he's a back guy. He's a background guy. He's a career musician.

And he's fucking great. He's going to be on Thursday. So I guess that's a good setup for that show. But I'm going to leave it in this show as a tease, as they call it. A tease. So this article came out in Wired. I'm going to make sure I credit it properly. I think it was by this guy, Nick Stockton.

Just about how cats feel about us. You are a huge, unpredictable ape, ape he says here's the deal is like i've been getting a lot of feedback from from vets and from uh and from uh you people uh about monkey's uh issue with his uh bladder and the possibility of crystals and chronic inflammation and and uh this happens a male cat so i bought a fountain that they still don't know what to do with i'm just i'm seeing the fountain now as a a meditative backdrop for me when i'm working in the kitchen the trickling of water is nice for me i'm gonna leave it there maybe they'll come around to it they still can't seem to wrap their brain around moving water but

whatever the deal is is that this article basically says that look you know your cat is a cat and you're just this big you know thing and it's in its environment that that causes them tremendous amount of stress with your needs and your moods and your attitudes and that was told that that perhaps this urinary thing urinary thing could be stressed but this article sort of seals it you know just say you know there's a lot of things your cats don't like cats are you know they don't like their tummies rubbed you know you think that they do but they don't they're just laying on their back because they feel comfortable you they don't want you to grab their stomach i don't know that you know my moods affect monkey i you know my cats are constantly

tweaked out and i've talked about this before and it's not unlike anybody else who's in my life you know on a regular basis eventually they they they everybody in my life who gets close to me has some sort of, eventually gets into some kind of skittish state. Like, oh, what's going to happen? What's he going to get mad about? It's a little better, I think, but I think I'm going to have to learn a lesson here from this. I'm going to have to learn a lesson about cats and about people and about keeping my, just relax. I'm relaxing right now. I'm relaxing. So Dr. Drew Pinsky, I'm going to talk to him a little bit about health.

I'm going to talk to him about his place in the cultural universe. I'm going to talk to him about, you know, being who he is. Dr. Drew pulls out a lot of different attitudes. I mean, some people, I mentioned Dr. Drew, they're like, I love that guy. Other people are like, oh, the fucking that guy. So I hope you enjoy this, this interview I did with him. I did. That's it. Let's talk to Dr. You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats, but meatballs and mozzarella balls. Yes, we can deliver that.

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on the map as a place where people come to solve some of the world's greatest challenges. Calgary's on the right path forward. Take a closer look out at calgaryeconomicdevelopment.com. Drew. Drew. You're a pro at this. You know the story. You've done the radio. Done radio.

Look, you even set yourself up at the mic properly. Dr. Drew Pinsky. Now, look, I'm going to start off by saying that I've got some problems. I'd like to speak to you as an internist. Fair enough. Let's do it. Yeah? Okay, so if I come in here- I love practicing that muscle.

It's good. Yeah. I mean, that's what you started with, right? Absolutely. I've practiced medicine for over 30 years. But when you got into it, an internist is- most general practitioners are internists. These days. Yeah.

My dad was a family practitioner. Which is different? Which is a different training. They still do surgery and they do pediatrics and they do deliveries and stuff like that. They used to. Minor surgery. Or they- no and they do pediatrics and they do deliveries and stuff like that. They used to. Minor surgery. Or they, no, they'll assist in surgery, in major surgery. I got zero surgical skills.

Zero. I'm not interested. But that's all another few years of college, right? Family practice? No, no. I mean surgery. It's just different. It's a different path.

How do you focus? Yeah. So my thing is cardiology, nephrology, neurology, pulmonology. We do all those rotations and then we just stop at a certain point and don't go on into a subspecialty like cardiology something right right right and i couldn't give up all the other shit i was too into it and then i ended up running a department of medicine in a psychiatric hospital and that started to fascinate me and so i sort of became an expert on the interface of medicine and

mine okay so as an internist you expert on the interface of medicine and mine. Okay. So as an internist, you were like the on-site medical doctor. Exactly. Everyone that came in needed a medical clearance. Sure. Because you'd be shocked how often medical problems present with psychiatric symptoms. I'm the king of that. No, I don't mean somatic symptoms. I mean that literally the depression or the psychosis or the altered mental status is actually because of a medical problem.

Really? Yeah. And it's not psychiatric. You name it. If you look at the manual for psychiatric diagnoses, at the bottom of every set of criteria, it says, these criteria apply, provided that you've ruled out any medical problem that could cause this. That's tricky, though, isn't it?

A person's not on drugs and they're not in withdrawal. Right. Because those three things can masquerade as anything. No, right. But you're saying that they could come in and some of their underlying issues, that they were medicating even initially, were physical issues. That's an even more complex thing. Yes, true.

All right, let's get to me real quick. So I went to a neurologist. Here are my symptoms. Now, let me give you my basic profile. I've been sober almost 15 years. Age? 50. Meds? No meds, except for a compulsive use of nicotine lozenges. Got it. And massive amounts of coffee. Massive. Yeah. That's it. Okay. So my symptoms are this. I've been having sort of weird numbness and tingling in my hands and feet that now has manifested itself

as almost like pain in the morning. I wake up as if I've been clapping my hands. Both hands and both feet or just hands? Yes, right. The hands and feet. Hands and feet. Okay, so now I just got a physical. My cholesterol is a little high,

but all the other vitals are good. A heartbeat is good. Previous medical problems? No previous medical problems. Surgeries? Had basal cell removed, had appendectomy when I was 11. Got it. So this is going on,

I've been in and out of anxiety symptoms, I've had tingles before. Just do something real quick. What? Anything around your mouth at all? No. Okay, vision or change, anything? Does this do anything to you?

Oh yeah, it sends a little thing down my middle finger. There you go. That's good though. That's your diagnosis. What? What is my diagnosis? Keep going. All right, so I go to. That's at least part of your diagnosis.

Now, here's the other thing. Now, this started happening. Like, my ears started popping. I started feeling a little pressure in my head, so I got hung up on that. So I'm thinking brain tumor, like on my nervous thing, everything, because I connect. I don't know anything about it. So I go to a neurologist, finally, because I know it might be- Well, let me see what I can do before I get the neurological opinion, okay?

Sure. Okay. So you have what's called a positive tunnel sign, which is consistent with carpal tunnel syndrome. No, he said that. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on.

So you have that. I mean, but a lot of people have that. It doesn't necessarily mean anything. What concerns me is that it should be limited to your hands if you had just carpal. And this business, shaking the hands, that's classic carpal tunnel syndromes. The ache? The aches, the pain, and the shaking and clapping kind of thing. I don't do that, but it just feels like that sensation right now?

I understand. All right. But it shouldn't include your feet. I mean, there's nothing that should go on your feet. So it makes me think, ooh, positive tunnels, feet and hands. How's your thyroid? Do you have any thyroid check? No, I did not have a thyroid check.

Because hypothyroidism can cause nerve issues like that thickening of the sheaths here and in your feet at the same time. So you want to make sure you're not hypothyroid. I'm looking at your thyroid. I don't see a goiter or anything. And so, okay, so that's one thing to rule out, hypothyroidism. So that might be hypothyroidism. It's just something to rule out. But who would diagnose that?

It's so easy. A neurologist. Just get a TSH. Neurologists should think of that, should be thinking of that. This was an old guy. He looked like he'd been doing neurology for a while. He did my reflexes. He checked everything. He said, no neuropathy. No neuropathy. But when I told him about

the ears popping, he said, let's get an MRI. Got the MRI. It's hard to see a neurologist without getting an MRI of the brain. Because anything at all can present in there. Right. So I got the MRI with and without the injection of stuff. And he said, yeah, yeah. Normal brain for a guy my age, he said, which I thought was

an insult. I would too. I hate that shit. I hate it. Because we have shrinking brains as we age. So he's saying that there's normal amount of shrinkage. Yeah, I know. I'm sorry.

That would drive me insane. Well, what? How's your brain? I'm sure there's a little shrinkage. I've been obsessing about that last couple of days. brain. I'm sure there's a little shrinkage. I've been obsessing about that last couple of days. I chronically listen to iTunes

lectures. iTunes U. I listen to a lot of medical and psychiatric and psychological and philosophy and history and stuff too. But lately I've been listening to how to roll up dementias and minimal cognitive change and what's normal change with age. I hate that. So you're obsessive? Oh yeah. Completely.

So you're saying I might have hyperthyroid. That's one thing to rule out. Then the physical they should have done a TSH as part of your thing. What? They should have done a thyroid stimulating hormone as part of your physical back. You said you had a physical? Yeah, maybe they did. So check that. So if that's normal, then what is it?

It's one of them things. You have a little carpal tunnel. You do. I mean, I don't care what he says. I play guitar. You have a little carpal tunnel. You do. I mean, I don't care what he says. You have a little. Well, no, I play guitar. Yeah, you have a little carpal tunnel. Why would it include your feet and stuff? I don't know.

Yeah, I don't either. You can get a tarsal tunnel, too. But what about the ear thing? That's the anxiety. What? That's nothing. Are you serious? Do you fly a lot?

Yeah. Okay. Come on. There's got to be something wrong, Drew. Hey, dude, I just went through prostate cancer this year. You had it? Yeah. I had a big operation six months, prostate cancer this year. You had it? Yeah. I had a big operation six months, almost a year ago.

How much did they take out? Everything. Really? Yeah, yeah. Can you still feel when you come? Yeah, yeah, but nothing comes out. Right, but that's it? That's the only-

That's the only symptom. Everything else is normal. You can feel it just, it still provides the same amount of relief and excitement? Completely normal. Everything's normal. But I'll tell you what, I was in, it's a case in point. Yeah. Guys our age need to get PSAs, need to get the visual rectal exam.

You need to do it. Yeah. I, you know, my story is I wasn't even, I had an illness. I had like a severe, I got H1N1 back when that was going around. The flu? Yeah. It knocked the shit out of me. And my wife's like, you got sicker than you should have. Something's

wrong with you. Really? She said that? She's a doctor? No. And I'm like, I had an infectious disease guy treat me. I always call my friends. That's a great thing about being a doctor. I think that's why people are being why people are doctors. You grew up with that. It's unique. My dad was a doctor too. It's unique. What kind of doctor was he? Orthopedic surgeon.

Kicks your ass. There's a, yeah, yeah. He has a better life than an internist. Internists right now, it's almost impossible to be an internist right now. Why? Because there's a dime a dozen, no work? No, too much work, and we're being squeezed to the point where you can't afford to run your practice. Because of insurance and HMOs? Because of insurance and HMOs.

That was his big thing. Yeah, it's bad. You can't practice the kind of medicine you want. No. That's been a long time, but you literally can't practice medicine, period. Because you're limited by the amount of tests you can do, how quickly they want people out. Yeah. And what you get reimbursed.

I mean, everything's held constant. And you can't. Everyone is struggling. All right. So you're sicker than you should be on this. So I got sick. And she says, she goes, oh, so you got to need a physical. I'm like, dude, I'm an internist.

Relax. I got it covered. It's the best infectious disease. Just treat me to need a physical. I'm like, dude, I'm an internist. Relax. I got it covered. I just said, it's the best infectious disease. Just treat me. Get a physical. I went in. My PSA had gone from like 1.8 to 4. Still normal.

Right. And I'm like, and my guy is a friend of mine goes, oh, we got to see a urologist. I'm like, no. Oh, come on. Just because I'm a doctor, you're nervous. See the urologist. The urologist goes, oh, something doesn't feel right. Something doesn't look right.

Let's, it's probably prostatitis. Let's treat you for prostatitis. I got treated for like a month had you had that before? yeah that's fun too I had that before

is that fun? yeah and I got treated for a month and he's like still up gotta do an ultrasound gotta do a biopsy biopsy

cancer couldn't believe it god damn god damn but there was a great case in point with three people using their instincts which is really an important point

that's left out of medicine entirely now which is these guys by the book I should have not been diagnosed. I should have not been biopsied. I should not have even gone to see the doctor in the first place. But three people had good instincts that something was up. Then I got followed for two or three years with serial biopsies because it was low grade

and you can watch for a while. For three years, you had the cancer and you were going to just manage it? Just watch it, yeah. Why would you do that? You're not as reactionary as you should be as a doctor. 30% of the time it gets better 30% of the time it stays the same. It's low grade. We don't really know what to do with guys like me, low grade process.

So you didn't find cancer cells? Oh yeah, there was cancer but low grade. But sometimes that goes away? Sometimes it progresses, yeah it gets better. But you watch it. And the point was, kind of the volume was more than it should be. So again, another instinct. My guy was following me. He went, I think we got to go.

Just take it out. And lo and behold, there was a piece heading for Mecca. There was a little tributary going out towards the capsule. You saw that when you got out. I'm going to take it out. It's a big operation. It's a big deal. It laid me up for months. Oh, God. Yeah, it's a big deal. Yeah, I big deal. It laid me up for months.

Oh, God. Yeah, it's a big deal. Yeah, I would imagine. You don't wear a diaper, right? Well, no. I went back to work in a week. Not now, but I mean when you were- No, well, you have a catheter for a week.

It's good times. Yeah. All right, so going back to this- So you're good. I feel all right. What, prostate-wise? Yeah. Yeah, I think I'm fine.

You're good always. Yeah. But coming from a medical family, you're more prone to somatizing. That's true. That's a fact. Of course it is. How else are you going to get your dad to pay attention to you? There's a great, there was something going on around Facebook, like 11 things that only

family members of doctors know. And one of them was, you can't get their attention no matter how sick you are. Everything's nothing. Everything's nothing, but they'll tell you that. Except when you do get their attention, it's cancer. Right. We freak. I do exactly that with my kids.

I go, it's nothing. Don't worry about it. And then when it gets into my consciousness, I'm like, oh. Or if they keep pushing. Yeah, I'm like, oh, crap. Oh, crap. It could be cancer. It could be this.

It could be that. Why am I trivializing this? But you grew up right here? Pasadena. That's where you grew up? Yeah. Down the street? Not far.

And your dad was a what kind of doctor? Family practice. So what does that mean? So when you're older than me, so he was probably making house calls. Yeah, yeah. He probably had an intimate practice. Yeah. Like just people from the neighborhood.

Yeah. He was everybody's doctor. Yeah, yeah. Pediatrics as well. He early did that. Yeah, then he stopped that later. And your mom was, and he was a Jew. Yeah.

And your mom from where? Philadelphia. Not a Jew. Not a Jew. Yeah, but you're not a? Philadelphia. Not a Jew. Not a Jew. Yeah, but you're not a Jew. Are you a Jew? I identify a little bit. I'm not a good Jew for sure.

My daughter is sort of getting into it. She went on the thing to Israel. Yeah. Oh, really? Very important for her. So your family identifies as Jewish? I was in- Is your wife Jewish?

No, but kind of. We can't figure it out. There's all kinds of- What does it mean? Because they're people that sort of intermingle and then forsake things formally along the way. And then World War, she's Czech, big, way Czech. And there was lots of Nazi and communist and problems that way that they couldn't practice. So you're saying some relatives, in order to get out of problems, may have had a sex with a-

Or whatever. But I went to Saturday school until I was in third grade. Okay. So I had an extended family. It was very, very Jewish. So you grew up with money over there in Pasadena

and a craftsman? No. Regular house? Modern, modern. How many brothers and sisters do you have? One sister. And what does she do?

She is a mom. Does she marry a doctor? No, she married a commercial real estate guy. All right. Yeah. Interesting. Everyone's getting out.

Yeah. Medicine? I mean, fleeing. My kids aren't going to do it. My dad doesn't practice anymore. Yeah. It's heartbreaking. It's heartbreaking.

Well, like what you were just talking about, the idea that you were able, just because of who you are, to have access to three doctors to come up with an opinion that saved your life is not everyone's experience. No, no. And it becomes harder and harder with the way the insurance companies and agent mugs Well, you're not going to see doctors. You're going to see something called physician extenders. I was on CNN the other day and I said that and Anderson Cooper goes, what?

He was like, in cents, physician extenders? I go, yeah, you're going to see physician's assistants and nurse practitioners because A, there aren't going to be enough internists to go around to meet all this, and, B, they can't run a practice. But do you think that maybe, you know, like if you look at the English model, that there was obviously part of the reason you got into medicine was to make a good living. I mean, that was the sort of idea like when my dad's generation was coming up, you know, be a doctor, and it was not always because so you can help people like a teacher. No, they could reliably make a living, yeah.

Right, yeah. So I think that the adjustment that maybe physicians have to make now is that you're more of a civil servant than you are somebody who's- What's a little unfair, though, is that there's still guys within medicine making ridiculous, absurd amounts of money. Specialist. Absurd. And then there are people struggling trying to make a living, can barely make a living.

Well, I was on an airplane. I flew first class because somebody flew me out you know flew me out somewhere and i was over listening i was overhearing a conversation of this older couple that lives in malibu and apparently what i gleaned was that the guy and they were talking about houses in new york a house in spain or whatever but what i gleaned was that this guy was a plastic surgeon who did michael jackson's first nose that he was good it was he made sure to qualify it the first nose the good one yeah the good nose but isn't it bizarre i think i find it bizarre that people will pay those sums of money for cosmetic procedures but things that actually enhance their health i want that i want

that free yeah it's bizarre i don't know i it like i've seen my father's plight and that like you know he i thought he was being paranoid. He felt like he was being, you know, run out of town and limited by the HMO stipulations on how to treat. He didn't feel like he could treat people the way he wanted to treat them. Well, doctors made too much money for a long time. That's for sure. Right. You know, it was too much. It was too fat.

That generation, it was like they spoiled it for everybody else. Well, so who are these physicians that you say are making a lot of money? The specialists who do. Well, really, the people that have cash businesses, the plastic surgeons. But you can still have a cash business. Arguably, you do have a cash business in different areas. No, I, yeah. Well, I don't do, I never made much at all practicing medicine.

Really never. But why'd you get into it? You know, I had to ask myself along the way. I mean, I was good at it. I always thought I would do it. Did you do it because your dad did it? Yeah, I think that's where I started. That's where I started.

And in college, I ran away from it for a while. Like, no, no, no, not me. I'm doing music. I would do it. Did you do it because your dad did it? Yeah, I think that's where I started. That's where I started. In college, I ran away from it for a while. Like, no, no, no, not me. I'm doing music. I'm doing this. I became a hipster for about a year and a half. In undergrad? Yeah. What did you do with music?

I sang opera. Do you still sing opera? Occasionally. You sang opera? That's not hipster. That's bizarre. Well, back then. Even then?

How was opera ever hipster? No one can understand it you sing in Italian yeah that was your passion yeah for a minute for you know are you a tenor

a soprano a baritone a baritone tenor so you studied opera oh yeah for years and years for years and years yeah

I did it as an avocation for a long time afterwards it was it's exciting for me what do you mean an avocation I mean I did it while I was going to medical school and residency and stuff too i kept doing what do you what do you mean you

did it it's not like moonlight as an opera singer no i didn't perform i just had a lesson and a coach i just do it i just do it but it's like one of those odd musical sort of passions where it's not like i'm just gonna get together a couple guys we rented a space not really not really if you're if you're a singer you get tired of everything else pretty quick right you start singing classical very very quickly you're just like all you get tired of everything else pretty quick. Right. You start singing classical very, very quickly. You're just like, all right, that's too easy. So what would you do? Put on the music and just sit at home and do it?

Yeah, or get a pianist or practice in my car, just do scales or whatever. You do scales? Do you do it now? No. You don't do it anymore? My son's a singer and a pianist. An opera singer? Yeah, he does it.

Yeah. I'm not sure that's what he's going to do, but he does, he's formally trained. Do you go to the LA Opera? Occasionally. I'm not like deep in it. It was just sort of a fun thing. Anybody who decides to sing opera is deep in it. You can sing anything.

What? You can sing anything. No, no, I can't. I'm a terrible musician. That's the other thing. You've got to love opera on some level. I like performing it more than watching it. No, I have a hard time with it. I can understand that. I mean, I went to terrible musician. That's the other thing. You've got to love opera on some level. I like performing it more than watching it. I have a hard time with it.

I can understand that. I mean, I went to a couple down there. Easy ones. Right. I would say even I like Rigoletto and stuff like that. I like spaghetti and meatballs. The thing I love about opera is that you've got your primary players, and then there's at least 50 people sitting for the last scene.

What do those guys do during the day? I know. All of a sudden, out of nowhere, the stage is filled with people. These are highly trained professionals. I wanted that too. They're just sitting back there. How do they make a living? I know. My son had to address all that. He's like, I don't see this.

I don't know how it works. They teach, I guess. Waiting around for the last song. Yeah. Isn't that crazy? It is crazy. I guess at one time they were part of a company and they were sort of supported that way. All right. So you do opera. Yeah, yeah. So I is crazy. I guess at one time they were part of a company and they were sort of supported that way. All right.

So you do operate. Yeah. Yeah. So I ran away. I went back to it. And then when I started medical school, it was like, wow, I love this. I really loved it. But was there any part of it where your dad was like, come on, what are you going to do?

Oh, sure. Oh, sure. You got along all right with that guy? Yeah. Yeah. But that was awful. You know, I don't try not to apply it. I try not to directly apply pressure.

But you got pressure. Oh, yeah. Yeah. But once I sort of made it my own, I really went back hard and loved it. And as I went along, you know, like during your clinical rotations, I was like, I'm going to be a neurosurgeon. I'm going to be a gynecologist. Every rotation, I was like, I love this.

I love this. I love this. And then my last rotation uh third year was in medicine i went oh shit of course that's why i'm doing this that's why i just want to be a doctor i just want to be i don't want to be a big superstar i don't want to be a surgeon just want to be a doctor so the specialist enables you to engage your brain in a different way i mean what you did was was broader broader you can sort of like you know kind of i i love human troubleshoot no no i you understand something i really like humans i i love the human experience i love all aspects of and i

had trouble letting go of things that i understood better now and and instead of letting go i sort of expanded over into the psychiatric side which was like the interface of of all these things you know all of the the family the relationships the the brain which i studied brain a lot in college and that sort of was a natural place for me because of troubles with your own brain uh were you i was in therapy for a long long time in class years with a psychiatrist uh no she was a psychologist when you were younger i finished uh my son had brain surgery when he was one and my anxiety disorder got so profound. So it was an anxiety issue.

Again, my wife sent me again. Oh, yeah. And I went for 11 years. It was fantastic. About anxiety. About anxiety. It was about accessing affect and regulating it, if that makes sense. So tracking the source of your panic.

No, no. The panic was all epiphenomenon as far as I'm concerned. Was that being reasonable? No, just symptoms of something unrelated. And this is sort of how I got involved in addiction and stuff too because I think people really need this kind of stuff deeply. Right. Do you go in there, you're anxious, your kid had brain surgery.

Anxious, anxious, anxious, anxious. Full of dread? Everything, yeah. Anx anxiety is about the only feeling i had for many years yeah and uh finally she was like realizing that i had sort of called i think i might have hit she would never like she had careful boundaries so she never really told me but i think i had kind of an alexithymia where i couldn't access and name feelings very well and so what's that called alexithymia. That's a psychological condition. It's not a medical problem, right?

I mean, yeah. Okay. But it created a psychiatric syndrome, panic and anxiety. Right. And so by learning to sit with another person and deeply connect and let her sort of help me attach, then it was profound. It was profound. A lot of crying?

No, a lot of dissociating. A lot of disconnecting because I had sort of dissociated. Once you connected, didn't you just? No, I think what happened to me was, because I never had problems with intense feelings. As usual, intense feelings. Screaming or crying? Yeah, intense feelings are all right.

But as usual, it's the intermediate zone that people have trouble with. And I would feel comfortable, I guess, or safe sort of dropping into these dissociative states that I didn't even know I had. How would that manifest itself? I would like fugue. I would like time. Time would expand and contract. I have no idea. And she'd all of a sudden become aware and she'd go, time's up.

I'd be like, huh? Oh, you just left. I'd sort of hypnotic. Right, right, right. And I think that was the source of my anxiety. It's a guy named Alan Shore that calls those trauma-associated dead spots. And it would fill in as I would get more comfortable sort of moving in and out of it. What was the source of the trauma?

That's sort of emotional abuse when I was growing up. I don't want to out anybody. a source of the trauma. That's sort of emotional abuse when I was growing up. I don't want to out anybody, but... Like anger type? Or selfish type? Like were you neglected? Or were you used?

Abused. Used. Yeah, for sure. Narcissistic parents. So we have similar things. You and I. Yeah. It's weird like that, because that's tricky, isn't it? It's delicate and it's submerged and it's not obvious. But it reveals itself in me through codependent behavior.

Absolutely, me too, 100%. Because you end up, your whole being becomes about managing them. Yeah. And they demand that. Right. And you had no choice early on. Well, you didn't know. Nobody gave you enough of what you needed to develop an autonomous self right but the narcissist exactly yeah but

the narcissist thinks that they're doing it right oh absolutely they're doing it for you yeah it's for you oh it's so sad it makes me it makes me choke up so like yeah but that is really the key to it is that so you had that too yeah that's a that's a scary thing so you like because what i've realized about myself is that you wander through the world with an incomplete self because you were never a hundred percent right because you weren't able no one drew the boundary like apparently under the boundary and then sat there and was present for you ever right because they didn't know how to they didn't know how and they still don't mine don't no absolutely not no no and no matter what you do they wouldn't they would they would like be confused they're like, what are you talking about?

We took care of you. We bought you that car. Yeah. You remember when you were 15? And yeah, you were tough. You were brooding and anxious. You were tough. You were like every teenager.

But you had it together. Look at you. You're fine. Look at you. You're fine. Yeah. Well, I don't know how you didn't get more fucked up. I guess you.

I think I gritted it out you know i grounded out for many many years and dealing my anxiety stuff i i must have been obsessive i mean you must but i liked oh yeah oh my god i had severe workaholism for many many years so that was the thing yeah yeah and but i liked people and i could connect to people i just couldn't connect them in a real genuine way i remember telling my therapist there's a fear there right i mean like the weird thing about me is that if you let yourself be vulnerable yeah because you know you emotionally you're exploited right and no one placated this this fear of being hurt thing or you know your sensitivity is not relative to the situation yeah everything becomes

very big yes you know like if somebody just goes i can can't have lunch, it's like, what? Yeah, what did I do? What did I do? What's happening? What's happening? It's like, God, I'm an asshole. Well, listen, I had a little different thing. I remember early on in therapy, I said, you know, I really see this whole process as the search for the genuine. Right. I want a genuine. That's what this whole podcast is. I want a genuine emotion.

I want a genuine connection. I want to be authentic self. Authentic self. And it was empty. A lot of emptiness I had. Yeah. And empty is a common feeling these days. So that has kind of become, strangely enough, Mark, my life work now, trying to help other people see it because it's everywhere. The emptiness. The emptiness is so common now. And it's emptiness because of abuse, because of narcissistic parenting, all that stuff. Abandonment and neglect.

Narcissistic culture. It's everywhere. No, I get it. Yeah. And you're like, not unlike what I'm doing in certain ways is that, you know, to get back to that, because like, you know, just because we happen to have narcissistic residual syndrome, which I just made up. I love it. I love it. Being brought up by narcissists. You know, we have a sensitivity to it, but we're cursed with the self-awareness to not be narcissists.

So then the struggle becomes, well, who am I? And then and then you know once you sort of level up on that it doesn't mean you know what the hell to do with that i mean i still deal with emptiness i mean i can't make a relationship work when i stop working or i sit there and i go what am i going to do now i don't fucking know nap uh you know i can't everything's i still have a lot of anxiety yeah what do you do with the emptiness now i don't I don't experience it anymore. Well, how do you know you're not just a workaholic? Because I really, I actually worry that I'm not working enough anymore. I love work.

I love, I have, because of therapy, I've organized my life in such a way that all parts of myself are involved and things I do are sort of creative and interesting. I get to come talk. Right. Are you kidding? 20 years ago, to have time to do this wouldn't happen no way like i had to like i've i have had many cyclical you know fucking like you know i'm me you're you fuck you things with my dad because uh because of this thing yeah and they

not knowing you know ultimately there's still some party that thinks they're going to take responsibility for it but that but, they retreat into something. No, they've got what they got. They can't change unless they go to treatment, too. But you always accepted that? My dad passed away. And so that was that. And his stuff-

I'm sorry. When was that? Oh, four years ago. Yeah, no, but you're 50-something years old. So what happened before that? You know what happened to me was with him. I still got stuff with my mom. Is she around still?

Yeah. With him, it was, he was doing such a wonderful job as a grandparent. He was just like- You let him off the hook. Completely. I was so grateful. I was so filled with gratitude for his grandparenting

that it was like, I'm out. It's fine. I don't care anymore. That must have been moving though. Yeah, that was intense. That was important. And I would give anything to have care anymore. That must have been moving though. Yeah, that was intense. That was important. And I would give anything to have one more conversation with him. I know a lot of people feel that way.

But yeah, I found forgiveness and gratitude in that. Absolutely. Well, when did you know that you had arrived at your true self or that you were being authentic? It's just a long process. It just happened. I noticed I was using it more in treating patients i think that's when i had something more to offer patients right and i could offer them something a

real empathy that was profound that's what you see that's what you don't that's what people don't realize about people that come from what we come from when you come from narcissists your capacity for empathy has to be learned and it's kind of fucked up. But there's also an asset there because you're so used to... Some people, I think there's two sort of wirings in people. People that start in and go out towards others and people that start with the other and then go in. Right. And to some extent, we all do both, but codependents go out first.

And so we are exquisitely sensitive to, we can pick up what's going on. But I'm a closet, like, I'm like, the weird thing is I never knew that part of myself, you know, like I, my second marriage dissolved because she went to Al-Anon, so like she hit a codependent wall, but I didn't see my part of being a codependent

until recently in recent relationships. I didn't realize that there was such a thing as an alpha doormat, you know? Like's got it you know i have a special empathy for co's that are addicts that's a tough combo yeah because you're the monster both ways yeah and then when you went like at 15 years i'm in two relationships where i'm clearly chasing my ass to try to accommodate i'm like oh my god this God, this is even more powerful. But it's more power. It's like I never understood what that dynamic was. And I had it all my life because when you deal with erratic parents who need managing,

you accommodate. And there's another layer to it too. Oh boy. This is the crazy part. Yeah. Is that, and this I can't, you can't really ever cure. You're going to be attracted to people that put you in that position. I know.

And you just love them. That's just how you're wired. It's your love map. And so you've got to be attracted to people that put you in that position i know i know and and you just love them that's just how you're wired it's your beloved map and you see you've got to mitigate it you the way to mitigate it is to go ahead and go after people you're not that excited about but then you're sort of but wait holding something for yourself but but you can't do that because then it's like it there's a it's like a phantom limb you know it's hard it's very and by the way you can also just go if people are exciting but realize it's going to be dramatic and you can see a lot of therapy. Yeah.

But that's the thing is that like what I learned is what my therapist says, like, well, that's the way it's going to be. And the best you can hope for is that they're willing to do the work. Yes. I agree with that. Yeah. There's very few therapists would say that. I think you are seeing somebody good after all.

I absolutely agree with that because that's life. We're not perfect. We're not healthy all the time. That's right. It's what makes life interesting. You can't be with somebody that's like, that's going to we're not perfect we're not healthy all that's right but it's what makes life interesting you can't be with somebody that's like that's going to have that that that you're not going to connect with on that level just say you can you can but you better be very disciplined not to go out and fuck the lunatic correct correct yes of course i live this a lot of people do not understand this and it is where a lot of the craziness comes from

with the things that were traumatic in our childhood are the sources of attraction and no one writes you know not only the sources of attraction you want to recreate it well that's the that's the conscious experience of it i think there's something i think that's unconscious i think no no because because when people start talking about in therapy they always go well i wanted to i guess i wanted to master i want to make it right this time like no that's your brain trying to make sense of bullshit motivation. No, it's comfortable. It's what you grew up with.

It's home. It's love. Right. It's your map. It's where you find love. Is it love? Yes. That's your version of love.

That's the healthiest version. That's different. That's the healthiest version. That's right. But I got the same one, so it's all good. But you've been with your wife for how long? 23 years. It's working. But you've been with your wife for how long? 23 years. So that, well-

It's working. But we have our craziness, you know, but therapy, therapy, here, everybody, you know, it's good. All right. And I have found, in the craziness, passion and renewal. Right. It works for us. I now hope it keeps working.

Well, my problem now, like, because I've dissolved two marriages and I just got out of a relationship that got crazy, and, you know, like, now when I meet somebody and I feel compelled and they seem normal, I'm like, this, that got crazy. And, you know, like now when I meet somebody and I feel compelled and they seem normal, I'm like, I got to wait. No, no. Oh, something's going to happen if you're attracted. Right.

I'm like, what are you hiding? It's in there. If you're attracted, of course. It's in there. However, however, however. Yeah. You've been doing a lot of therapy and stuff like that. And it's possible that you,

if you notice yourself being attracted to people and surprised you're attracted to that person, that might be somebody safer. We'll see. Like, the one benefit is I've gotten out of things quicker, you know, so. Yeah, you see it. Well, yeah, but the pain of that, all of that, the heartbreak. It's funny. Yeah, I'm sighing a lot here with you.

I feel the. There's a heartbreak to things. Like, sort of like, ugh. I totally get it. It's going to be different. All right. So, I want. There's a heartbreak to things like sort of like i totally get it it's going to be different all right so i want i there's a couple things i like i want to ask so so okay so now you're the you're the so first out did we finish your medical stuff almost it'll come back no that the basic medical stuff but psychological stuff might still need work what but but you're not a psychologist no that's why i'm moaning i'm like uh people want me to do all that stuff and i'm i'm so familiar with i like people i like their issues but don't

you get flack for that you're not a psychiatrist you're not a psychologist you're not you get flack for a lot of shit some people don't like you oh i know i get flack for a lot of shit it drives me it's painful it must be painful but i mean what you can answer to it later but so you are let's do it now. Well, I will. So your inspiration for the way you built your practice outside of television and everything else was being this in-house physician at a drug facility. I had two jobs, basically. One was my general medical practice. Where you were seeing people with, like, my stomach hurts.

How come this happens? That's in people, old people sick. And you were doing okay? Yeah. Okay. And then I got in the, and I was doing the drug and alcohol thing. I was running the drug and alcohol program. Once a week or?

Oh, no. That was a daily thing, but I had a partner. You got hired on by the people that put the place together, right? It's more complicated. I started there when I was doing the medical workups, moonlighting as a resident. Then I ended up taking over their medical services. Ran those for about four or five years and then was asked, all the sick people were down in the drug units. I got very good at detoxing people. The short story is the guy that was the director of the program goes,

hey, help me out here. I need an assistant director. So when I'm away, someone's watching the shop. Don't worry, there's nothing to it. You got good at pulling people off opiates? I got really good. I could detox anybody anytime. And it's no big deal. We can do it without using opiates, without Suboxone, without Methadone, without all this stuff. So I'm deeply connected to abstinence-based treatment. I've seen it change lives, and I think it's a shame when we shortcut it.

Anyway, so the director asked me to be the assistant director, and then he quit, and now I move up to the director, and I was like, oh, crap. So I had to really become an expert fast and spent 20 years doing that. Now, towards the end, my partner was doing a lot of the work and I was just sort of supervising. But initially it was starting off dealing with the medical issues of coming off drugs.

Right. And then all of a sudden I was in the middle of it. I had to become an expert on recovery, on the family issues, on interpersonal- And you read the books. And I've retaken the board. So I'm officially an expert in this. Because you know what fucking gets me is that you go see a therapist. And in my mind, any therapist, any therapist, read the fucking big book. I know. But what the fuck? I mean, just.

But it's so complicated. What do you mean it's complicated? The lack of, the politics and the philosophies that are wound into the treatment of drug addicts. It's unbelievable. I literally feel, and I find this bizarre. I one time, I told the story to a group of psychologists. I was concerned that all my patients, we detox them, we treat them, we get them a treatment, and all of a sudden they'd end up

in another part of the psychiatric hospital on benzos, on opiates. And we go, look, we've been working with this guy for six months. We're just doing great. You brought him in, and just because he said he was suicidal or anxious, you put him on the drug. Please understand, this guy was using, and you didn't test for that. And I said, I'll tell you what I want. I just, in the admissions office at the hospital, I just want a banner above the people doing the admissions. Reminder, all diagnostic criteria contingent upon no medical, drug use, or withdrawal., the criteria are invalid.

And it was the director of admissions and the medical director looked at me and my nurse and went, like the unenlightened. Like literally we were arguing about religion or something. Yeah. It was bizarre. I said, no, that's the criteria.

I just want a reminder for the people using these criteria that they're applying them improperly. Right. It's not philosophy. It's not religion. It's just facts. But the weird thing is is that there there is this weird disconnect between you know people who medicate yeah you know practitioners yes and people who who are

cognitive right yeah oh yes for drug addicts right well the thing is like you know i know there's issues about like you know about treatment but the truth of matter is is no treatment most of them don't work most of them yes the success rate is shit yeah so like if somebody says that's why that's all this other stuff comes in because abstinence has such high recidivism the other stuff well if we had great success with abstinence treatment there'll be no room for anybody else right but but the other thing is just then it becomes a question of of the the disposition of the person like you know making somebody uh taking them from drug addiction

to a more acceptable drug addiction. The question is, are you going to try to get this person into a flourishing life or make them chronically ill? That's the thing. And if they're going to die if they're not chronically ill,

okay, we're going to make them chronically ill. But who do we make chronically ill? That's the question. What do you mean by chronically ill? Like chronically on medication, chronically, not flourishing. Because recovery is about flourishing, about being better than you ever knew you could be. Right, I know. Full recovery.

But then when you talk about that and then you talk about your own struggle about being hobbled psychologically and realizing that a lifetime is only a lifetime. And that what is necessary to sort of really parse what is going on with you and behave properly. I mean, you can act as if all you want, but eventually it'll stick somehow or another, but you're still going to deal with those feelings. But it takes a certain amount of courage and persistence to do it. It's not for everybody. So the question is, how do you select?

I don't know. The interesting... Well, here's the interesting selection. Magically, doctors all get abstinence treatment. So for our peers, we only use abstinence treatment. You mean in the community? No, I mean if a doctor gets addiction, the only acceptable treatment is abstinence-based treatment. Right.

Interesting. For us, that's the only acceptable treatment. But for everybody else, well, we have other options for you. It's like, hmm. What do you mean, what you mean like medication and medication and whatever sometimes medication is appropriate this point of doctors on medicine opiates and benzos what i'm talking about okay yeah are you on medicine no oh i have cholesterol and blood pressure medicine that's it all right so so what what now i guess most of the criticism around you is that you're an opportunist who's exploiting the addicted. So help me understand what that means.

Because that's where I start. Like, oh, exactly what does that mean? Look, I've maybe watched only a couple episodes of your show. I've listened. Like, you know, I know you as a person. I've met you a few times. I've listened to Loveline here and there. I've watched one or two.

I've not been committed. I don't do a lot of research. But I think the idea is that reality shows in general are exploitive and that reality shows that are presenting themselves, not unlike many of them, there's a certain type of reality show that presents itself as helping people. But when there are tragedies within it or when people think that storylines are being extended or drama is encouraged in order to make the show compelling, then it seems exploitive. And you would also think that the people who are being exploited would,

what, feel exploited? Right. And not... No, I don't know. I don't know. It's tricky with celebrities. Yeah, yeah. Because that might be part of the problem, right? Well, so here's the situation. So let's look at the situation. And I understand the criticism. I do. So I would think exploited would mean somebody is unwittingly brought into something that they don't understand, and their well-being or their good is sort of forsaken for something else. Right. Right.

So our... And by the way, I didn't dream up doing this thing. Somebody asked me to do it, and I thought... So I already rehabbed. Yeah. I thought, no way. Forget it. But I started asked me to do it, and I thought, pfft. Celebrity rehab. Yeah. I thought, no way. Forget it. But I started getting convinced to do it, do it, do it.

And actually, it was Bob Forrest that convinced me to do it. He came to my office one day, and he said, he goes, you know, I'm so goddamn sick and tired. We treated a lot of celebrities back in the day. I'm so sick. Privately. Yeah, without anybody knowing. I'm so sick and tired of our patients being disdained in the media as being on some sort of spa vacation or on a publicity campaign.

People are sick. They do hard work. We got to do a TV show where we show what these people do. Out of the blue, he said this to me. Somebody already approached me at that point about it, where we do a TV show where we show how hard this work is and how sick these people are and what they need to do to get well. It's interesting that I've just been approached about this. If you think we should,

I'll keep going. And he's somebody you work with at the treatment center. I've been working with him for years and years. In fact, I knew him back when he was

a severe drug addict and I assumed, I thought for sure he died. For sure. What was his band? Was it Thelonious Monster? Yeah, yeah. I see him around.

I mean, he's a guy. He's solid. He's a guy double, what is he, 20 years sober now or something more? Yeah, yeah. I mean, he was treated over 20 times. Yeah, yeah. I see him around. I mean, he's a guy. He's solid. He's a guy double. What is he, 20 years sober now or some more? Yeah, yeah. I mean, he was treated over 20 times. Yeah. Severe addiction.

So this is interesting. So because of the cultural perception of celebrity and the need for predatory tabloid information about them, Bob thought that they were being mischaracterized and treated poorly because of people's lack of understanding of how difficult the job is and what drug addiction is. Right. And this time we did a TV show. We showed all this. We really tried to educate people.

But I think we achieved that end. I think that's what we intended to do. What I didn't know was, is this going to be good for these patients? I had no idea. And I was very, very concerned about that. And because of that, the consent process was extensive. They needed to talk to their family. They needed to talk to everybody. And two things kind of happened that were sort of surprising to me. One was when we treated the first, and we just, all we did was treat.

In fact, at the end, as I learned how these people do these reality shows, I got to the point where people were not allowed to make even eye contact with the patients. And they were not allowed to make eye contact with me unless they had four questions. Doctor, how's the patient doing? How long are they going to be in treatment? How much is it going to cost? What's the aftercare plan? That's it.

Those are the only things they're allowed to talk to me about. And if they talked about anything else, I'd leave that goddamn set, I swear to Christ. But I didn't know I needed to be like that at the beginning. So that's how you have to be when people- With who? With these producers. They want to monkey with people. You can't do that.

The reality producers. Yes, they wanted to monkey. I was like, these are sick people. Are you kidding me? But you didn't do that initially until you learned- It took me a little while to learn. That they were predatory. Or whatever they're doing.

They don't understand. Exploitive. Forgive them them they know not what they do all right well that's that's very diplomatic so okay so so the first thing was every time we get in every day i go are you okay okay the camera's okay they're bothering you the body by everyone's like no i'm fine fine the cameras don't bother me and and finally mary carrie the porn star leans into me and she goes drew i i've done just about everything in front of a camera this is not a problem i thought okay okay, okay. So that, and then the other thing, and this was the big surprise and the great relief for me, is that every single patient had an evolution in treatment that we didn't expect. They went from coming in because they wanted to be on TV, they wanted to make money,

maybe I'll get a little treatment, whatever. Bounce back. Whatever, come back. Their motivation was not necessarily strictly to get over drugged and get well. They went from that to realizing we were serious. One of them came in to screw with us too. They wanted to mess with our production, mess with me. A lot of people intended to sort of make a name for themselves by screwing everything up.

They understood we were serious about it. They started valuing their treatment, and they ended up, pretty much every patient ended up wanting to share it with other people because they valued what they'd gotten in serious about it. They started valuing their treatment and they ended up, pretty much every patient ended up wanting to share it with other people because they valued what they'd gotten in treatment. Right. And that was good. That was good.

The problem is once they leave treatment, how do you know who's going to keep going and who's not? And that's where- With anybody. With anybody. With anybody. And I made myself,

I treated and treated, anybody wanted treatment, we got it for them. We kept it going. People do not fucking understand the heartbreak of the thing. Oh, so difficult difficult well culturally there's really two camps there's you know like uh you know tough love pull yourself up by your bootstraps and then there's people who live with it on some form or another either within them or within family members who realize

this struggle is not that easy no and it does not imply weakness i mean there are some people that can just say no and dry drunk the rest Right right it is. Yeah, I wouldn't bank on that for anybody by the way Yeah, but some people like I will do some people will have periods. Yeah, we're like, you know, that was a bad time Yep, and that's I'm done. Yep, and they like but I wonder what that what the statistics are and like well What what are they replacing it with right? What's next? Hey, wait,? Absolutely. Well, either that or they're not an addict. Because that happens too. People do substances that are not addicts.

No, of course. And I hate them. They wish you could be like that. Right. But I mean, you were making a good living with that thing, right? I mean, that was your primary thing. Well, Love Lines was different. That's interesting.

Like, how did you come into that? Oh, that's a long story. It was just accident. I thought I was doing community service. That was back when I was in medical school. That made you in Corolla, right? Oh, that's a long story. It was just accident. I thought I was doing community service. That was back when I was in medical school. But that made you in Corolla, right? Well, that- Publicly?

Corolla came like 15 years later. I was in radio. What got me into radio was HIV and AIDS. I thought we needed to talk about this. No one was talking about it. As an internist? As an internist. I wanted to get on-

Were you treating AIDS patients? Oh, like crazy. And they were all dying. 83, 84, 85. Right there at the beginning. Oh, yeah. It was horrible. And nobody was talking about it. It drove me insane. Because there was a general sort of

in the general culture of the time was, well, young people don't have sex. We don't need to talk to them. Really, that's how people thought. Remember condoms were behind the counter. You have to go to the pharmacist to get the counter. It was insane to me. And I thought, we got to talk about this. And so i once a week came on and talked to answer questions what station was that k-rock oh it was right at the beginning right here and it was when k-rock was

on las robles it was a little shithole above the dentist office or something so you're like dr drew is here to talk and i didn't and i didn't use my name i don't want people to really know what i was doing i thought i was doing community service you know but it was about sex it was that that standard fucking issue of like you know how are we in america so fucking repressed and victorian about how we approach it but back then young people were having lots of sex and there was nowhere to go for stds were mysterious there was no internet there was no textbook there was no education in high school there's also shame and fear all that stuff was there but but but they were people were having lots of sex right young people they're always having lots of sex yeah i don't know what it was like in the 50s 60s but in the 70s 80s it was going on and no one was talking about it and

no one was talking about healthy ways to do this and it was all considered sort of taboo and you don't talk to young people about it especially right i got shit for that too and and here's here's the bottom line here mark yes i'm upset I'm here. I'm here. Is that I do stuff that I think instinctively is right. And I think I have pretty good instincts. And I love people. And I want to do what's right. Yeah. I do it because I think it's right.

I think I was right to go talk to young people about sex. I took more shit about that than probably anything. What kind of shit generally? Oh, I had the director of my residency program screaming at me, telling me I was sick. There was something wrong with me. He was going to fire me. I stopped for a while. And same guy, two years later. When you're sick. There's something wrong with me, he was going to fire me. I stopped for a while. And same guy, two years later-

When you were sick. There's something wrong with you if you're talking to kids about sex. Right. Same guy, two years later, I went back, he's sort of on the DL, and they started doing it again. Same guy, three years later, comes back to me and goes, because he got involved in AIDS education later, hey, you still doing that radio show? I'll tell you what, I'll take over now.

I got it. I got it. Really? Same guy. Yeah. So you were treating people where there when there were no answers so you got some of the first cases absolutely i would say when they came in with their first episode of pneumocystis i would say you have six months to

live and i was never wrong never wrong but you didn't know it was aids at that oh no we knew we knew what it was then that was like one of the major ks pneumocy KS. CMV retinitis and stuff. We would see all these crazy things. And leukocephalopathy. But we knew it was AIDS. Because that's what we... I have to say, though, there's a piece of the story that people don't know very well. AZT, County Hospital was doing a lot of the AZT research. And we got AZT and we're like, oh man, this is working.

The Buyers Clubs at the time and Spin Magazine, if you look back at it, came out and said, that drug causes AIDS. Don't take it. That's the syndrome. It's the people trying to, they're taking advantage of you.

Come with us. Get the stuff from Mexico and blah, blah, blah. And I saw hundreds of people die because of that. Now they would have died anyway at that point in time. Why would they say that?

I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Go look at Old Spin Magazine. They did series on it. I kind of remember. Yeah. And they would say it all came from the Gallo Institute, and it was doctors putting this BS out, and the drugs they're giving you are causing the AIDS. It was even implied in the Dallas Buyers Club movie.

They sort of implied that, well, remember, the guy took tons of it too much and he got sick. And then it sort of became the doctors made people sick too, but then they didn't. Look, we were rushing to save lives. I mean, it was a- So you had to do things. In the history of medicine, there's never been anything like this. It took us 1,000 years to figure out what syphilis was.

We identified an epidemic. We figured out what the syndrome was. We figured out a causative agent. We initiated treatment of vaccine research within 10 years. It's unbelievable. There's never been anything like that. And people are living with it now. Oh, now it's chronic illness, like diabetes.

But it's controllable. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. That's amazing. Yeah, it's amazing. So now, like in terms of all right so that and then add and then it becomes a relationship show i'm upset i don't know why as you're doing because i think you're taking me back to that time and and i'm thinking of all the shit i've taken over the years

and struggles to do what's right and to help people and take shit for it is really painful well i think that once you the thing is is that once you enter the world of of celebrity yeah that you know that's what comes with it i guess uh and people think they know you or your motivation or whatever and i i just examine myself all the time like are you you right you must do this shit it's our disorder but i'm not as big you know know, my, my, you know, I'm not as, you know, I don't have anything.

I don't have a professionalism. You know, like I'm not as out there saying like, well, I know. Not an easy target. Well, yeah.

I'm an easy target. Yeah. But I mean, you obviously have helped people. I certainly hope so. Are you kidding? That's my goal. People who grew up on Loveline?

Yeah, I hope so. I mean, like, you know, I mean, you saved lives, you saved relationships. And when you're in a position that so. I mean, you saved lives, you saved relationships.

And when you're in a position that you're in where you're confident, you're a practitioner, there's just people out there going, that guy's going fucking down. Yeah. Like when you make comments. I don't understand that whole impulse. I got none of that myself. So I understand. I know it's there.

Well, I think that what happens is that because everything's so available that anybody at any time can listen to everything you've ever done or look at it, that, you know, if you have a moment where you misspeak or don't think thoroughly through it and it's reactive, then that becomes everything.

That becomes the lens through which we see you. This guy said that these symptoms are from sex abuse and he just, he just, he shit on all women. Yeah. Oh, I had this, I happened to have the

other day i um had a guy this is awesome this shows you the how the social media can can get at you yeah i uh had a guy on loveline still doing loveline and he calls up and he goes my girlfriend he's got was incredibly anxious girlfriend she has uh she has ic she has endometriosis she has fibromyalgia yeah i, I just read about that. Do you see this? Go ahead. And I go, whoa, whoa, whoa. I was like, wait, wait, wait. He listed like six diagnoses, seven diagnoses, all unrelated basically. And I go, hang on a second.

He's using jargon too, so I know immediately there's something up. I go, IC, I assume you mean interstitial cystitis. And he goes, oh, yeah. And I go, okay, okay, okay. So here's the deal. You've done, you've used, listed a whole array of garbage bag diagnoses, meaning doctors pouring things into the garbage bag to try to explain something they can't explain. Not that these things don't exist.

Not that there are very serious diagnoses for people that have them. You're using medical slang. Yeah. This woman, I don't think we might consider, maybe she doesn't have any of these things. And I said, maybe it makes me think with your anxiety and this list of unrelated diagnoses, you can argue about how unrelated or not they are. Maybe she had sexual trauma growing up. Maybe this is all about, because it seems all centered around her pelvis and he's concerned

because he doesn't get to have sex. Right. And I go, was there severe sexual abuse? Yes, you're severely. Right. And I go, I, was there a severe sexual abuse? Yes. You're severely sexual abused. And I go, why don't you go look at that? Maybe,

maybe stop with all the medical stuff and go get that treated. Right. That, that was the call. It was, Alan Thicke was the guest. I mean, Alan Thicke was sitting there.

It was a minute, 15 second call. The endometriosis world came after me. Like you can't believe for saying endometriosis is a garbage bag diagnosis. Which wasn't. Which was not at all. They misunderstood garbage bag. Right.

And of course, endometriosis is a very serious thing. It causes infertility. It's painful. It's profound. It's common. Right. But you were dealing with the psychology and the number of possible ailments. She didn't have it.

She didn't have it. I suspect that she probably didn't have it. Or if she did, it wasn't what was causing all this anxiety for this guy. She may have also had it. You know what I mean? But I'm just saying, consider this other thing also. Isn't it fascinating, like, you know, just like- So painful.

So painful. For you. To be misunderstood. But that's going to happen in a public forum. If you're in a public forum every fucking day, how the hell is that? I guess so. But maybe you can help me. Maybe it's as part of because we share this codependency thing when you're codependent you want you like people you want people to like you back you know

you like that well i think that it becomes tricky when you know you're as together as you are or or it's hard you know when you're a spokesperson or somebody who's in the public eye and you're like a codependent your instinct is like i want to want to help him. When you don't help, you take it personally. It's hard not to mistake that taking it personally is narcissistic. Oh, that's interesting. So you help me. Do you understand what I'm saying? Yeah, I do.

Well, it is kind of a narcissism in a way. It is. It's all about me. But there's something healthy about some narcissism. No, but you're right. There is a covert narcissism in codependency. It's all about that. You're right.

You're right. You're right. It's wounding, this stuff. Right, that you didn't take, that you misunderstood me. Yeah, I know. Good, it's funny now. Now, in dealing with that, it's profound to me just, you know, what's happened culturally, sexually. And I didn't plan to talk about this, but I mean, since you obviously have opinions on it.

Yeah. The pornification. Oh, yeah, it's interesting. Of culture. Well, like I talk about it on stage, that porn is insidious. It's brain altering. Absolutely.

Almost permanently. Probably. If you're not careful. We don't know. No, I know. I saw porn too young and i'm struggling backwards for my entire life we do know that a young exposure can cause sexual compulsions and addictions i mean it it shatters the upper limits of the young brain's ability to manage and regulate

stuff that's coming in it's almost like a trauma but it's desensitized it's fucking profound dude and like and like i don't know when it happened I don't know if the business is that big to where like, I mean, in the 80s, there was a fucking, you know, granted a right-wing commission to sort of like harness and assess it. But now it's just sort of like, yeah, porn is porn. You can do it. You and I can watch it right now. I mean, there used to be some difficulty in getting it.

And again, I'm no Puritan, but it just seems to me that it has the same effect as a drug. For sure. And that, you know, I have a friend, a'm no Puritan, but it just seems to me that it has the same effect as a drug. For sure. And that, you know, I have a friend, a good friend of mine, my sponsor actually, deals with sexual addiction. Yeah. And I think that the repercussions of that epidemic is we don't even fucking know. We have no idea.

We have no idea yet. I worry about what's going to happen to this current generation that sort of we don't know and they're living in it. The one thing I've seen is a lot of young males, you're going to love this, young males are sort of like not interested in relationships. Right. Like, women, they're difficult. They're tough.

Yeah. I got my point. I'm fine. Yeah. Can you imagine? Or I got my hookup. I'm fine. Hookup, porn, whatever, just some arousing, whatever.

Well, this is interesting because, you know, Wilhelm Reich, you know, who wrote who wrote uh early on who got you know kind of pushed out of psychiatry for it yeah said that if we can unleash you know and demystify and take away the guilt and repression around sexuality yeah in this culture and he was going on freud's idea that repression was why everyone was neurotic right that we could fix the culture and create an unneurotic populace if people didn't stigmatize sexuality what do you think well we're living in it yeah it's not working out so good it's it's it's concerning different set of problems that's right maybe kids are less neurotic and maybe they're more comfortably sexually but i don't know that you know by that by taking away the meaning of intimacy on that level is proactive. No, it's problematic.

Yeah. Because there is biological intimacy associated with it that we can't escape. Right. And if you are denying it, that has consequences. Right. It does. And so people need to be respectful of what happens when two people are close like that. Oh, I see what you're saying.

So there's no free ride. No, it's our brains. Our oxytocin comes out. We have all kinds of feelings. We all have one. And we can do it sometimes. Right. But sometimes we cannot.

And how to identify those times and what the price is for doing it, not worked out. Well, getting back to this other thing about how reality shows characterize things, the one thing about me is that from the inside know as somebody who's a drug addict as somebody spend time in recovery it's interesting like even even shows like intervention which kills me all the time because like i think that the that the intervention library is like a first step library is that you want that because as somebody who's in it even if it's exploitive what's being captured there is truly the struggle of it is like you you wonder whether that person's gonna gonna run or go into treatment yeah but even if somebody who's in it like okay they're in

treatment i'm like i who knows what's gonna happen now i'm glad they made it and they'll get the information but even when they're back like a year later i'm like now she's still not out of the woods man that's right you're not out of the fucking woods for five years then years when i hear people dude Years. Years and years. Dude, lately I've been hearing about people who are relapsing at 17, 18 years. I'm like, oh my God. Oh. Because like, well, you're an old person now.

And you're like, well, maybe it doesn't have the same. I don't give a shit. Well, no, I don't think it's I don't give a shit. I'm like, it can't be as strong as it was. Do you know like that whole idea? Yeah, thinking that I can handle it now. Right. Because I've got so many years of good built up regulation.

Right, right, right. How could could it possibly and you know what and usually when they do that uh it's a slow evolution or very quick or very sometimes very good but usually what i've seen it's usually so because they usually kind of can handle a little bit different than they used to and then oh now it's just now it's up game on and then off they go i just i i never like i never forget that that that feeling of just knowing that like you've never been a there's never been a casual approach to any of this shit good yeah so what but what do you think it is after all this experience what do you what do you how do you characterize do you use a disease model is that something 100 that's what it is yeah i mean we just know so much about it it's just that's what that is. The mystery is how do you get somebody to be willing, right?

And I'm of the opinion that the magic of that is interpersonal. It's an interpersonal disease with an interpersonal solution. It becomes between you and your drugs, but ultimately if you can interpose people into the wiring, that's where you can find your way out. But addicts don't trust. They've been severely traumatized. They don't know how to get that closeness going.

They're manipulators too. But that's incumbent upon us. And that's the piece that doctors don't get at all is how they're being manipulated. And I have to bring people in the room with me to sort of double check me because as not a recovery person, I can get taken advantage of really easily. But I kind of know. I've cultivated the word whatever. I've learned to expect everything and anything from addicts.

And I do the best I can. But getting in the frame, getting them to be close is an unusual experience for them. I feel like that's my – other than getting them detoxed and enrolled, my instrument, what I sort of use, my medical instrument is my body to get in the frame of closeness with another person. And that's hard work to get them there and keep them there. So I feel like that's their, I serve as the first. And I just talked to Jeremy London over the weekend. And I haven't talked to him in years. And we treated him on one of the shows.

And he's now got married, had kid flourishing and worked and and I and I thought to myself I go wow why would he he called me to sort of connect about his success in life and I thought wow I guess I guess that makes sense because he he he really appreciated that closeness we had in the brief time we were together it It was different for him. And it became a model for things he could do in recovery. Right. The other thing is about that closeness is also learning how that through the context of like recovery or whatever, that you can help others. Oh, well, that's part of, that's just reversing closeness.

That's right. That's practicing boundaries and creating meaning. Right. Leading a good life. Right. But you got to learn that when you're drugging. You got to, yeah. you're drugging you got it yeah yeah that's the tricky thing yeah it's sort of like i just want to worry about me fuck it all

no but like you know but then to really feel the fact that if you just listen to someone else's problems you're not thinking about you and it's a relief and you feel like you've done something good right and it's not it's not learning it's experiencing it's an experiential process and you have to first experience and but but here's the part that i think people miss it's not learning, it's experiencing. It's an experiential process and you have to first experience. But here's the part that I think people miss. It's not just serving soup at a soup kitchen. It's identifying something in another person that you're being of service to. Learning empathy. It's hard.

I know. It took me doing this podcast to really get it. No shit. Yeah. Do you sponsor people? I don't. Oh, we may need to think know i know i yeah i mean uh that might be really i think i sponsor hundreds twice a week yeah yeah i understand all right

let's deal with one other thing yeah that we should talk about the uh and i don't usually do interviews like this but i might as well do it with you these are the accusations of shilling medicine me yeah okay uh what's that about the contract on the well butchering right right here will do it with you. The accusations of shilling medicine. Me? Yeah. Okay. What's that about? The contract on, the Wellbutrin? Right, right. No one wants to list to me

on this one either. So you've defended yourself on this? I tried, but I just, the perception is so bizarre, I just sort of, whatever. But wait,

before you get into it, I mean, I need to, I do know that, you know, growing up with a doctor, that pharmaceutical reps come to the office, they give you samples. You want to be up on the latest things and the most positive treatments for certain things. Right, right.

So you're in the loop. And you want to get samples for your patients for free because they can't afford stuff. Yeah. So, I mean, I get that part of it, that if you believe in Western medicine, this is part of the reality of how you do business now. Well, really now, I mean, things have changed so much in the last 15 or 20 years. Right. Now we don't let them in the office. They mail us the samples, everything.

We don't even accept a pen anymore. Now, you've got to remember, I come from a time when we got our first stethoscope from Lilly. It was considered collaborative relationship. Right. When I was a chief resident, drug companies paid for all of our speakers now i made sure that whatever they spoke on i chose had nothing to do with their products but they paid for it but that but it wasn't seen as nefarious it was collaborative it was in collaborative and it became increasingly clear that it was nefarious okay 15 years ago

i accepted money to do a campaign 15 years ago. To do a campaign. The rage in your eyes here. To do a campaign. And here was the campaign. Maybe you shouldn't take antidepressant medicine because it can screw with your libido and ruin your relationships. That was the campaign. That's it. That was the campaign. Okay.

I wrote a book. I gave lectures. I did television. And I opened the book to see if my memory was right. And not anywhere in the book does it mention Welbutrin. Not one place does it mention it. Welbutrin is one of the antidepressants that does not cause that side effect. It's not an SSRI.

Now, back in the day, people were not discussing this. And I was on Loveline. People, marriages were being ruined because people were being put on SSRIs and they'd lose their libido. They couldn't function sexually. And I was like, this is an important campaign. I did it for two years. It was a major part of my life going around doing this. And also, they didn't know the success rate or the side effects necessarily or whether

or not it was going to work for the long run. It was awful what I was seeing. And I was anxious to do this. I mean, these people paid to put me on TV and found ways to put in lecture halls. Anyway, the Justice Department got on that company for advocating off-label use of their medicine. They found a radio interview I did where they asked me, what do you do if somebody gets this? And I said, well, here's what I do. This is what I do.

This is what I do. I switch people. If somebody needs an antidepressant, I switch them to Welbutrin, Sarazone, or Remeron, and occasionally add Welbutrin to the SSRIs if it's some compelling reason to keep on the SSRIs. And that's what I do. Were you paid to do that?

To say that? Yeah. No. So you never received money for it? Oh, yes. I was paid for the campaign. It was my job for two years. It was a major piece of my life. I was going around doing these lectures. But you believed in Wel for it? Oh, yes. I was paid for the campaign. It was my job for two years. It was a major piece of my life.

I was going around doing these lectures. But you believed in Wellbutrin? No. I believed in not using antidepressants. That was the campaign. Who gave you that money? The Wellbutrin people. But they were allowing me to have my opinion.

Because then somebody, of course, would come in and go, well, here's a drug that doesn't cause that. That was not me. Though when they would ask me what I did in practice, Because then somebody, of course, would come in and go, well, here's a drug that doesn't cause that. That was not me. Okay. Though when they would ask me what I did in practice, which they did on one radio show that they found, I answered, that's what I do in my practice because that's what I did. But that was not an on-label thing, so that's where it became an issue. You've never heard me say, use X, Y, or Z medication. No one has ever heard me say that because I don't do that.

I just don't do that. Where do you stand on Viagra, Cialis? I take it because you take it for one year after your prostatectomy. That's what you take. It's exciting, right? If you've got a prostatectomy, it saves your boner.

It's an important thing. So in those cases, as recreationally used? No, no, no, no. No no no no listen i here's the deal here's what i grew up with i grew up with and i hope you grew up with the same with my friend my dad would always say medicines are bad do not take medicine people overuse my i i didn't receive an antibiotic until i was like 14 my dad was the opposite and then it was like only under these extreme circumstances and with great like all, you're about to take a medication.

And I, listen, most of what I did in the psychiatric hospital when I was running the medical service was dealing with the side effects of medication. I have a profound concern about the medicalization of all this and how dangerous medicines are. Profound. Because they don't know what the long- Forget long-term. I've seen short-term disasters. Lots of them. Yeah what the long term. Forget long term. I've seen short term disasters. Lots of them.

Yeah. Lots of them. No, my dad was different. My dad was like, take this, take that, take this. And now somehow or another, being a guy who was deeply rooted in that, he's become completely holistic. Oh, isn't that interesting? All vitamins now, which is its own problem. Well, I mean, there's definitely, listen, like I said, I have genetic issues in my family.

I'm glad I can fight it back with medication. Right. But that's stuff people need to work out with their physician. That's not like, hey, you should take blah, blah, blah.

No. I got to get you to look at my numbers after this. I will. I'll be happy to. So, all right. So we feel good? You feel good?

No, I feel horrible. Well, what can I do? This stuff makes me just so upset. So upset. Because my intent was to do good. And when people started going, ugh, it makes me just so upset so upset because i i because i my intent was to do good and when people started going it makes me feel terrible i mean i think that you know when they

i hate being defensive i don't like to offend myself no i know but but i think that when they hung the deaths of those people on you the suicides and the you know from the uh the rehab show and all that i don't know that people really understand the depth of the illness. And I think that was just a predatory press looking to hang you up. It's not fun to hear the successes. My wife wants to put together a web page that gives commentary for each of the people we treated about how their experience was like. But this is also tricky around the issue of anonymity as well. Bob and I spent lots of time talking about that.

We actually studied the 11th tradition very carefully to try to understand how we raise awareness, help people understand what this thing is without violating tradition. Without keeping AA out of it. We never said that. We never used that word. I know. We even at first, by the way, we never used the word steps. And then

one of the biggest criticisms we got was where's the step work? Don't you do step work? I can't. Yeah. It's very tricky. And then when you talk publicly about it, you do open yourself up. I've gotten some backlash, but not much from people who are like, there's other ways other than AA. Oh.

Yeah, maybe there is. There's plenty of other ways. Whatever you're going to do. Whatever you got to do. I just do what I see exciting recoveries and flourishing lives restored. That's what I originally got into. I wanted to be a part of that. Look, I took your fucking narcissist test.

Oh, yeah. You got that? How'd you do? I did better than I thought. 14, 16? 14. Yeah. That's where the co's end up.

But, you know, in light of that, it was surprising to me, but it makes sense in light of that, that the only one that was high was superiority. Nice. Well, you are superior. It's good. Sometimes cigar is just a good smoke. Maybe you are superior. Maybe I'm what?

Superior. I don't know. What's interesting is if you had taken it back when you were using, you would have been way up. That's what I knew. When I was looking at these questions, I'm like, well, I used to be like that. I'm really not, I can't say that I am anymore. And that was my blowing

because that is exactly what I thought. It's like all these answers like, I used to be like that and I'm not anymore. And none of it would have happened without recovery. And I definitely noticed that. And I definitely see the change in people. I know if I'm in a meeting and someone's telling their story, that moment where the hand of AA is there, I'll fucking get choked up no matter what.

I get choked up transitions in people's lives like that all the time. And when they sit in here and tell me their story, yeah, I'm just sort of like, because people can change. I mean, there's some things that you can't change, but you can act differently. It's hard. Yeah. It's really hard. And people are very glib about change.

It's profound. It is. It's changing who we are. Because there are some people that are like, people don't change. Some things, fundamentally, they may not. But they can certainly make different decisions for themselves cognitively and get used to that. And that will change you. That's right.

Yeah. You will change you. That's right. Yeah, you will change. Whether you change from the outside in or the inside out, it really is what we should be doing here, right? Right. We should be helping each other out. We should be serving one another, right? We should be, that's right.

When people talk about leading, people don't talk about good lives anymore. Yeah. How do you lead a good life? Yeah. No one ever talks about that anymore. Who the hell knows what it is? It's being with other people, sure i know i know and i you know and i don't do enough of that bullshit well i mean here i do it but like at night i'm like what am i gonna do i'll go to

the comedy club i know those guys you know it's a one thing we didn't talk about is where spirituality and religion all this stuff fits in with all this because that's where people freak out yeah that's where people freak out here's my take that you out. That's where people freak out. Here's my take on it. That's where Doug Stanhope goes insane. Here's my stand on it. Go ahead. My stand on it is you don't need a God to have faith.

Correct. Totally agree. Yeah. And the truth of the matter is that to characterize AA as some sort of religious cult is peculiar because there's no bigger room full of fucking rebels and fucking, you know, a people who will just like want to fuck God at every turn than that.

Yeah. Now the only, the, the, the big thing that, you know, you realize it's, it's,

it's the idea of surrender. This is, this was the hardest part is that's where people get hung up. It's like, you're powerless. That's bullshit. Yeah. You're missing the point. Yes. The point is, is that is is that however you're going to take that leap of faith that'll

enable you to know in your heart that most things you have no control over yes most almost everything yes 99 you have control about what you're putting in your mouth when you're sitting at dinner and the scary part is when you're an addict you'd also don't have control over a lot of what you're impulsively and wanting and willing. That's right. You can't trust your thoughts. You can't even trust your thinking. You can't trust your instincts. Yeah.

Because they're fucked. At that point. Right. At that point. But that's the misconception. That powerlessness is somehow giving up. It's really just acknowledging control. So I tell people if I'm talking to recovery, I say say like, don't fucking worry about the higher power right now.

Yeah. You might not have to worry about it ever. You just have to know that it's not you and that faith is possible. Yep. That's it.

Yeah. And some people need a more elaborate concept. For them, fantastic. Go as far as they want with it. Of your understanding. Of their understanding. But here's how I understand it

is that in order for people, addicts control everything. And in order for them to experience powerlessness, they have to let go of control. And in order for them to experience powerlessness, they have to let go of control. And in order for humans to let go of control, they have to have faith that things aren't going to fall apart or the world's not going to come off its axis. I have patients saying things like,

I felt like I was carrying the whole world on my shoulder. I'm surprised the world didn't end when I let go, when I didn't have control. They literally believe stuff like that emotionally. So it's just the faith that things will be okay yeah you can have faith in people you can have faith

in whatever the laws of physics laws of physics that things will continue to be the same as they've always been in physics that's all

at least for the next 10 minutes that's all you need that's all you need but here's the thing with powerlessness though is that many addicts particularly significant addicts

severe addicts people that i would see people they need to see me because there's there's spectrum as we've talked about you know but if you're bad enough you need to see me you had trauma in childhood and the common experience of trauma in childhood is profound powerlessness and it's traumatizing to think about being powerless again and that's one of the resistances that's one of the one of your disease doesn't want to have it either. Your disease wants to keep in control, but also the trauma.

And also sadly with that type of trauma, it's something that culturally and individually people want to repress. Well, forget culture individually. Your brain just does that. Your brain puts it way off in the back. Right. And you're thinking about it is I've dealt with that.

When in fact, what's happened is you actually have a part of your emotional brain that's literally diswired, unwired from the rest of your system. To protect you. Because it's overwhelming. Right. But it's still there. Right.

And it's embedded in your body now. It's interesting. And it will continue to be a source of symptoms until you rewire back into that piece. Right. But see that- And that only happens in an interpersonal context. And if you don't trust other people, you can never rewire it. That's right.

And then the enemies or the opposers of therapy, of recovery and all this, are the people that say, look, you know, what we just talked about is promoting victimhood. But you know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the criticism is that the therapy business and the recovery business is all about keeping people in a victim mode to continue to- Or dependent or needing other people. And it's a little crazy because there's so much more nuance in that. Oh, my God. And we know the biology. We know what's needed.

But the other side of that is it's like, oh, if you're like, fuck that, it's all willpower. It's like, I'm not a victim. That the possibilities for you pushing that down the line genetically or behaviorally into generations is massive. Yeah. Terrible. All right.

So now do we feel better? I do feel better. All right. It's great talking to you. You too. Okay. See, that was good. That was good.

See, Dr. Drew, a guy with opinions, but a guy and a doctor. And he helped me out. And no, I haven't gone to get my thyroid checked yet. And I got to write that down. Completely forgot about it. Does that change your opinion about Dr. Drew? I enjoyed him. I thought he was forthright.

Stand up, dude. But what do we got going now? Did I mention WTFpod.com? Am I playing guitar? Let's do some electric. Let's play some electric guitar. This is not... I don't even know who listens to this at this point.

Like, at this point, are people out? Are they off? Did they turn it off? Oh, my God. I have a hard time breathing. The writing of the show is going well. Ooh. How loud is that for you guys? Huh?

This is a Stratocaster. guitar solo Thank you. All right, all right. Boomer lives! It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction.

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