WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 551 - John Mulaney

Episode Date: November 16, 2014

John Mulaney pays a visit to the garage while certain things in his life are in a state of flux. For one, the status of his TV show is up in the air and his next job is unknown. Marc talks to John about the balancing act between unexpected success, like writing for SNL and getting a sitcom produced by Lorne Michaels, and unpredictable failure. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com. Lock the gates! Alright, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers, what the fuck buddies, what the fuckineers, what the fucknicks? How are you? I'm Mark Maron. This is WTF. My guest today is John Mulaney, the young stand-up comic. A young man. A young man. You know, I've gotten some feedback on occasion when I talk to the

younger comedians, and maybe I'm a little hard on them, or maybe it comes off as sour grapes of some kind, but I don't think I did that with John, but maybe, I, maybe I'm guilty of that. I guess, you know, show business is tough, man.

It's, it's tough. And if you're lucky or unlucky enough to, to not see any way out of it, maybe something will pan out for you. Things eventually did, but I can't tell you how many times in my life where I thought that everything was going to happen, that this was it. This was it. If I really think about the amount of heartbreak and disappointment that one encounters in pursuing one's dream or even a career, any of you, everyone understands that. How much we have to sort of reconcile that and absorb it and process it if possible hopefully without getting bitter or cynical

which seems almost an ridiculous a ridiculous task to open your heart so much that any sort of leveling will just become a learning experience it sort of has to be you don't have any real choice do you but i don't like now looking back at it as a 51 year old i don't i don't know that i i learned any lessons necessarily other than when i look back at all the failures and disappointments in the ways that i fucked up i just sort of think like well i lived through it but there are some things i don't know if they're any better at all because there's some like there are younger people now i'm going to talk to john mulaney today he has a big opportunity his show is in a little bit of trouble but the truth of matter is you know he's going to go on with his life one way or the other you know life is full of heartbreaks and disappointments it just

gets to a point where it's like i don't want anymore can i not have them anymore wow oh my god i watched that movie whiplash last night and it has something to do like there's something about that you know really being humbled and beaten enough to finally grow the fuck up and i know some of you are on to me already with this stuff i don't know that if i've fully done that i don't like you know i know I'm a 51 year old man but you know emotionally I don't seem to be that and I don't know what I expect out of people but like all of a sudden all this shit is becoming very clear like you know I got all this stuff going on but here there's there's this one flaw dude there's this one flaw that keeps you spinning in the same place keeps you in pain keeps people who are with you in pain on and off, pain relief, you know, the drama cycle.

God damn it. I don't know. Maybe I'm just having a bad day. Maybe I think I wasted my youth somehow. I can't. I don't look back and think like, what about all them good times? Just panic. about all them good times just panic just a parade of panic in different outfits with different uh with different uh you know ideas about what was going on wasn't panic it was passion angry panic

and a lot of like come on look at me what about me where's mine how come i can't have it when am i gonna what's the story why does that guy get to god damn it what about me what do you do i do i do me i do me i'm doing it right now you don't like it come on fuck you fuck you reckon with me i don't know if that's everyone's idea of entertainment well you're bullshit fuck you you're not entertained are you compelled are you engaged you fuck yeah i i got this meeting's over yeah fine i'll give a shit i'll give a shit that was it this is my that's my early years i was definitely not as together as John Mulaney, who we're going to talk to right now.

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Because those are groceries, and we deliver those too. Along with your favorite restaurant food, alcohol, and other everyday essentials. Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence.

Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly.

This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Now. John Mulaney's in the garage. I don't even intro people. I don't even know why I did that. But I just did it for my own sake. Just like a clapboard. We're going to land.

We're going to get grounded. Yeah. Right now. We're going to set it up. How are you feeling? Were you nervous coming up here? Nervous? Yeah, I'm nervous.

Well, I'm nervous before everything. But I was not extra nervous. It's nice to see you. You're not freaking out? It's nice to see you too. Yeah, a little bit. it's it's been a while it's been a while how you been i'm all right you know i'm trying to you know work i'm very busy how long did you moved out here though pretty much yeah uh i got married in july and my wife and i have been renting a place uh you got married in july yeah i'm happy to hear it for you. Oh, thank you.

What does she do? She was a makeup artist for years and is now a style writer, has a new book out called The Daily Face. Plugging his wife's book, folks. Right out of the gate, plugging it. Right out of the gate, make sure she's happy. Anna, I plugged it right out of the gate. Yeah.

Before I got to- He got that taken care of, Anna. Yeah. July, August, September, October, November, so it's been like four months. I guess so. And you dated for how long before? Four and a half years.

Really? Yeah. So you're like right on track. You're right on track for everything. Everything was done in the proper way. That's right. Really, courting? There was courting, we knew each other for a while, and then we were like friends who wanted to

date for many months and then started dating what so you were like oh we gotta i feel it do you feel it well i didn't think the pattern of my life was liking a girl and she didn't like me back but we'd be good friends so i thought okay this is another one of those which i was very comfortable in i was very very comfortable in that situation yeah Yeah. And then she wrote me an email saying she liked me, but I thought the email said, sometimes you flirt with me and it's uncomfortable. Like there were two ways to read this email. It was that difficult to read, huh?

She said she liked you and you somehow read that as like, please stop bothering me. I think she said something to the effect, without having the exact language, something to the effect of, you exact language something to the effect of you know we're such good friends but sometimes we seem like we're flirting and that seems like it's a different level and i thought she meant like stop flirting with me right now yeah right but she meant uh she meant i like you are we taking it up a notch yeah and i was mad it was a i was in the

middle of an all-nighter at snl and it was like 1 a.m when i got the email and i didn't write back and so she thought it was like a rejection, or not a rejection. She just thought like, what the hell's wrong with this guy that he didn't write me back after that? So you're fundamentally an insecure fella. Of course. I know, I'm just saying this out loud.

Yeah. Why is that? You seem, you're an attractive man. Thank you, so are you. Talented fella. So are you, thank you. You're young, got good hair. I have newscaster hair

and I had a good orthodontist in the 90s. One of Chicago's best orthodontists. Did you? Is that what you were told? Yeah, he was a good

north side of Chicago orthodontist. What does that mean, north side? You grew up on the north side? Yeah, like Lincoln Park. Okay.

Not far from Second City and Zanies to place it in a comedy. Oh, really? Okay. I remember Zanies to place it in a comedy oh really okay so that's why I remember Zanies as being almost in a suburb kind of well there's three Zanies you know the one Naperville then St. Charles Illinois and then uh the one on Well Street yeah the one on Well Street in my mind was sort of like I remember there was uh an apartment building around there and yeah like it wasn't didn't feel like I was in Chicago. Oh, that's 10 minutes from downtown.

Yeah. Right. So that you grew up around there. Yeah. You grew up with a large family. Yeah. I'm the third of four kids. How many, how many boys?

Two sons. I'm the second son and two daughters. And the daughters are old? No, I have a little sister who just turned 27. Yeah. I'm not going to do the math, Claire. And the oldest of us is Carolyn, is my older sister. And she's how old?

She is 1970 and eight, so she is 35 or 36. Wow, I don't know why I'm saying that. These are ordinary facts. They're ordinary facts, but you're a young person. I am 32 now, yeah. 32 years old. Yeah. And you've done an amazing amount of stuff.

It's been a nice few years. Okay, so let's get down to brass tacks here. So you grew up, there's a lot of kids, Catholics. Yeah, Irish Catholic, yeah. You're an Irish guy. I'm about 99% Irish. That black Irish thing is what you got, right? I guess so, yeah.

I always loved that term as a kid. Yeah, me too. Yeah, my mom told me I had I always loved that term as a kid. Yeah, me too. Yeah. What does it mean? My mom told me I had jet black hair when I was a kid. And I always, that's one of my favorite compliments. Black Irish to me, like I never knew what it meant. And then it just became like this menacing thing.

Yeah. Like that black Irish, you're like, they're very, you know, intense looking and nothing but trouble. You're not sunny and red haired. Right. And you don't have a limerick at hand. Nope. Nope.

You more, it's the Irish goodbye people. Yeah. Leave a party without telling anyone. That's right. The brooding kind. I guess so. That's what I'm thinking. Yeah.

I think out of the two, it's probably the more attractive to be. I don't know. I mean, you know, having a happy redheaded disposition. I'm glad actually, as I say that out loud, I'm glad. Do you have cousins who are redheads? Do you have friends who are redheads? I don't know many redheads really. I'm not against them. Some redheads on my mom's side. I'm not, actually. As I say that out loud, I'm glad. Do you have cousins who are redheads? Do you have friends who are redheads? I don't know many redheads, really. I'm not against them.

There are some redheads on my mom's side. I'm not against them. I'm not against them. Well, there's lots of lore about not trusting them. Really? Yeah. Are they untrustable, the redheads? I've heard such things.

Share some of that lore. I just heard Bernie Brillstein. I didn't know Bernie Brillstein. Sure. I just heard he said that you should never trust. Well, he said never trust a redheaded Jew was the thing. Interesting. There are a few of those.

I've heard that many times. As quoted to Bernie Brillstein, it was not something. Yeah, and your parents were high-educated working people. Yeah, they're both lawyers. Jesus Christ. Yeah. Really? Yeah.

My mom's a law professor at Northwestern University. Well, that's noble. She probably believes that the law is a good thing. She does. And that people should treat it with respect. Yes, we were very, it was a lawyerly upbringing. And your father, what kind of lawyer is he? He's a corporate lawyer.

Does mergers and acquisitions. See, now that sounds a little, that doesn't sound like, you know, completely on the level to me. How's that? I don't know. Mergers and acquisitions. It's definitely not pro bono, but.

No, I know. I just don't, you know, when you start talking mergers and acquisitions, I feel people are losing their jobs and crying uh well that's life right no i'm not gonna say that's life don't you know sometimes companies need to merge and he was you know he would he would help not his problem whatever it's not his you know he's just trying to do it right and protect everybody yes who's merging and acquiring, yeah. Yeah, for those corporations. For those, yeah, made up of people.

Yeah. Just ordinary people. There's no reason to think that though. Just treat the corporation as its own entity, as an individual. That's what we're supposed to do now, right? That's what the law says. That's what the law says.

Seems crazy to me, John. All companies are an individual. Yeah. So he's just helping little folks. That's right, the little folks. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like Proctor Gamble. Sure. That little guy. Maybe not P&G, but why Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like Proctor Gamble. Sure. That little guy.

Maybe not P&G, but why not? Yeah, that's a bad one. Is it? I don't know. Every comic in Cincinnati would work for P&G, I remember. Really? When you go to Go Bananas, everyone would work for, their day job was P&G.

Oh, really? Because that's where it was located? Yeah, they had a big office there. That's where, where the hell was it? In Indianapolis, it was the pharmaceutical company. Lilly, I think. Oh, really? Yeah. Everyone at Crackers worked for Lilly? Well, no, but it was there, looming, I think, if was the pharmaceutical company. Lilly, I think. Oh, really? Yeah.

Everyone at Crackers worked for Lilly? Well, no, but it was there looming, I think, if I'm not mistaken. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then Comics in Chicago would work for Leo Burnett, the advertising agency. Really? Yeah. There were always these sort of home offices where it's like, well, I could get a day job at Leo Burnett.

And some advertising agencies have temp jobs, right? There was temping? Yeah, that's probably what they were doing. What did you do when you were a punk? When I was day jobbing it, I was an intern over at Comedy Central. Then I was a temp at Comedy Central. And then I wrote a freelance wholesale ad copy. So for big catalogs of tchotchkes and stuff,

I would write the descriptions of them for the catalog. But Comedy Central's in New York, no? Mm-hmm. I never lived in Chicago after I was a catalog. But Comedy Central's in New York, no? Mm-hmm. I never lived in Chicago. What? After I was a kid. I mean, that's not true. I lived there for 18 years.

Then I went to school, and then I moved right to New York. Really? And that was it? That was it. See you later, Chicago? Yeah, I never started in Chicago. It was weird, because it was like Second City and tons of stand-up was there, but I just never did it there.

Why did you run away from Chicago, John? Well, I didn't want to start in front of my family. Why? Because I, you know, I wanted to. Feel like you're out in the world? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Doing your own thing? Doing my own thing and occasionally asking for money.

Yeah, wish me luck. I might need a check occasionally. I might need $500 tomorrow. But when did the trouble happen? Because I know that we're both sober guys. We established that on our last podcast. Yeah, oh, our last one was at comics. Yeah, it was comics, yeah.

Remember comics? Comics Live. But like you, how long are you sober now? September 22nd, 2005. So 10 years will be next fall. So, oh really? So you just got nine years or so? Yeah.

I just had 15. Thank you. Congratulations. I appreciate that. 15. Yeah. Wow. And God damn it, do I want a drink.

You do? Not really. Yeah, not really. I'm uncomfortable though. Sure, sure. I want a relief. A little squirrely. I'd like a ripcord.

Relief. Yeah. That's all it is. It seems like it'll be relief. Right, but that's the feeling. Because I have that feeling a lot when people ask me, are you happy? Do you want to be happy?

I just would like to be, I want some relief. I always wish I had just a ripcord next to me. I should wear a parachute and just feel it occasionally and go, okay, it's there. Even though you don't want to deploy a parachute on the street. Well, we're both falling, is what you're saying. We're falling at a high speed all the time. I constantly feel a feeling of falling.

I don't know enough about physics. Neil deGrasse Tyson could explain why that is. We're plummeting right now. Yeah, we're constantly plummeting. Oh, my God. So hopefully we won't hit the ground since we don't have parachutes. That's what you do.

You just adapt to the feeling of plummeting. Yes. So nine years, so you were like, what, 23, 24? I was 23. I got started doing everything young. But you grew up in a nice upper middle class. I had no excuse. No, I mean, but it's easier in a way

because people don't expect you to necessarily be fucked up. True. And I just had a real, I remember a psychiatrist told me when I was young, he said, half of you is this really nice guy, who's very polite, and the other half of you is a gorilla whose job is to kill the other half.

Exactly. Yeah, and I thought, okay, that sounds right. So I had this inclination. I talk about that a lot, the two voices. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's weird. Have you decided what the authentic you is? Or is it just, it's still up in the air?

I think the authentic me is the nice guy who's very aware of the gorilla and goes, stay over there, gorilla. No way, not today. Things are going all right today. Things are going okay at the moment. Wow. Stay over there, gorilla.

So I can't imagine you was just out of control. What did that look like? Everyone says that. Yeah, it's funny. My wife is always like, I wish I could spend a day with you as an out of control person. You know what that sounds like? That sounds like someone wants you to drink.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That would be wonderful for her. What a delight that would be to go back to it now. Come on, John, just one day. To go back to it after four months of marriage for her to see that. She just wants to know you, John. She wants to know all of you.

That's true. That was an interesting person. A confident person at moments. Please. Full of bravado and bluster. I had a lot of bravado. I had a lot of ideas. So you started drinking when, what, you're 14? Yeah, 13, 14, yeah. Full of bravado and bluster. I had a lot of bravado. I had a lot of ideas.

So you started drinking when, what, you're 14? Yeah, 13, 14, yeah. And you were just drinking with your friends? Yeah, we just drank a lot. I think we just had an unhealthy familiarity with drinking and drugs early. Why is that? It was around a lot. Culturally?

Was your older brother or sister? They were very responsible. I think they drank in the high school sense. Right, right. And that was about it. Just laughing. It's just fun on weekends. And someone holds somebody's hair and you don't drink for a month.

Yeah, you don't drink for a month, right? You'd have that one incident. Yeah. I never had like an incident in high school. I was very, looking back, I was very careful to keep it going, which is interesting. I didn't want to come home and puke everywhere. Don't want to fuck that up. Yeah.

Right. Right. Got a good thing going. And I did feel a sense of pride in that I kept my parents out of it. Yeah. I'd come home and go, I'm home. I'm going to bed. Right.

And I'd just make it as quick as I could. I think they knew we drank some. I don't think they knew that we were messing around with a lot of stuff. Really? What stuff? You know, we were doing like? We were smoking pot and drinking, and then we did coke and stuff like that. Some blow.

Did some blow. Yeah, we were those types of kids. Somebody had the good allowance. Yeah, and also just terrible coke that teenagers could afford. Someone knew a guy who knew a guy. Yeah, we were just like, we'd take, you know, we'd take like Ritalin's and Adderall's to do school work.

And then we'd do that stuff, other stuff at night and drink a lot. And this is towards later high school and then into college. And then in college. So in college, you're a free man. Where are you going to college? To Georgetown. So you're in DC.

I'm in DC. And now the sky's the limit. Sure. Yeah, man, you're free..C.? I'm in D.C. And now the sky's the limit. Sure. Yeah, man. You're free. You got some money coming in every month. It was more like everyone had a tiny bit of money and would buy pot and coke and stuff like that.

But what did the bottom look like? What were you studying at Georgetown? I was an English and theology major. Huh. I was an English major. Theology, huh? Yeah. Were you a God guy?

Oh, yeah. I believe in God, yeah. You do? Undeniably. Not even second-guessing it, ever. Of course. Constantly second-guessing it

all the time. Did you grow up with the hell? Sure. Oh, yeah. Irish Catholic. I know, but your parents are lawyers.

They're smart people. They are smart people smart people don't believe in hell yes they do alright you know despite religulous

or whatever that shit was well you studied theology you're a practical person yeah you're a practical person I studied a lot of Jewish theology though

I was mainly interested in that that very much lined up with my personal outlook. What specifically? There's a God. He might not like us.

Yeah. And there might not be nothing else after this. So let's focus on this. And you're free to talk to him at length about anything. Sure. And sometimes there are arguments. You can shake your fist. Sure.

Yeah. Yeah. He can take that. God can handle that. That he can handle that was also very yes yeah it wasn't this like oh this is a friendship i was like this isn't a friend no no it's a difficult relationship and i've got questions right and if you're not going to answer them me and these guys are going to just kind of go over them over and over again right it's like

working for like an aloof famous person where you just talk about him when he's out of the room it's a group of assistants we're a pool of us not we because i'm unfortunately not a moody assistant yes yes yes writing a midrash to understand their boss so you were like what reading the kabbalah reading the talmud uh studying that writing papers on the jews yeah uh torah talmud uh kabbalah you didn't do you didn't get into the mystical stuff? That's only for special people There was a class on

Jewish mysticism that I don't think I took. No I didn't take it and no I got I think the last class I took when I was a senior was theology after the holocaust so there was a much more... That was the, why did God let this happen?

What was that about? Semester. Yes. A semester of what was that about? Yeah. How could he have let that happen? Yeah. What does that mean? And it, you know, it meant a lot of the same questions they'd had forever. Always the same questions. Yeah. So what was the focus of that course? Just sort of like, how did Judaism

change within the community? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was the well, the first the first course I took was Judaism. What was it called? Changing Tradition and Continued Practice. I like that it adapted. We just preparing for show business. No, I just it was like I think being raised religious. I want to speak the language of the people I'll be working for. Yeah, well, I didn't take like a think being raised religious i want to speak the language of the people i'll be working for yeah well i didn't take like a you know like uh handbook of yiddish conversational yiddish thing a year-long seminar in communicating with lauren michaels i had a book uh when i was a little kid called yiddish is a second language it was like a like

a novelty books yeah i somehow acquired yeah i really liked that. Yes, I wanted to be Jewish. You did? Yeah, I don't know why I'm running away from that. But how Catholic were you brought up? I mean, seriously? Yes, serious. Like talk to the priest? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Go to confession. Go to church every Sunday. I like the idea of confession. It seems like it's relieving. You must have gotten some relief. It's free therapy, by the way. It is just kind of uh the old thing of the screen and you kneel on one side and the priest and you never see their face as portrayed

in films and so forth it actually became after i guess i don't know if it was vatican too or just growing up in the 80s it was like you sit in a room with the priest and tell them uh what's going on and it's kind of it was more like what therapy is like i mean except there was a back and very different parameters. There was a back and forth. Yeah. When I first went to confession, though, I would make up. It's different than therapy because many things are not okay.

That's true, but you don't, I was never like read a riot act in confession. It was kind of like, well, of course, life's, you know, it's very hard and, you know, sometimes. Right, and it's difficult, but you still like, you need to ask forgiveness. And if you don't, there's gonna be a... Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I gotta say, like the idea that the creator of the universe would forgive you for individual things you did wrong is a nice feeling. Sure it is. Yeah. Cause you think he's busy, but I'm glad he could make the time to take a load off me. He let someone, yeah, someone let me know that I was square with him.

Yeah, you're okay. You can, you masturbated, someone let me know that I was square with him. Yeah, you're okay. You masturbated, it's okay. Well, see, what I would do was I would make up

wholesome sounding sins because I had to go to confession, right? So I'd go in and I'd be like, oh, me and my brother

were throwing snowballs at a house and someone told us to stop and even after they left I threw two more snowballs because I just had to make up like Norman Rockwell sounding sins

when really it was like, jerking off. Humping my bed like a maniac. So you never came clean on that stuff? You just kind of make, how did you actually feel forgiven? No, I never said that out loud. Really? Well, I have to say I knew enough to know that that stuff was fine.

But throwing snowballs was a big problem? No, I just needed to get through the session. You ever go to a psychiatrist or therapist and you don't have anything that day, so you just need to make something up to get through the session? Well, I'll talk about something and pay him for it. Well, exactly.

So sometimes I'll go to my shrink and I'll be like, I gotta think of something to focus on for these 45 minutes. And I exaggerate whatever the problem is just so it sounds like it's a thing. Oh, really? No, for me me it just ends up being like a regular conversation

I could have had with a friend over coffee like sometimes do you see that show would you talk about True Detective yeah whatever yeah

I mean I got nothing against Catholics I mean I don't want people to get the wrong idea I'm a little hard on Catholics because I but you know the Catholics and the Jews

these are ancient religions have you been to Rome have you been to Florence have you done yeah I've been to Rome I've been to Jerusalem you see all the the dead wizards in caskets uh and wizard of wizards yeah crypts and coffins and crypts each church has a part of somebody a piece a finger yeah they have like or yeah or a piece of a shirt sure yeah sure piece of it you went to Israel too because you were fascinated I've been to Israel, yeah. I went to Israel with my dad in 07. Really?

Yeah. That was the best trip I ever took in my life. Really? Yes. Why? It's amazing. There's an energy to that whole place that's just incredible. Crazy.

Yeah. We landed in Tel Aviv and then went up through Caesarea, the Roman ruins, went through the Golan, came down. The Golan was really interesting because I was like, oh, this is beautiful. Yeah. Like you hear about the Golan Heights, but you never realize like, what are people fighting for? And you get up there and you go, oh, this is nice.

Yeah. It was just you and your dad? This would be horrible to be dispossessed from here. Yeah. Yeah, just my dad and I and a guy named Menachem. And you decided to go to Israel. Former Israeli colonel. They're all former Israeli colonels.

Well, that's true. But this guy never let you forget it. Oh, yeah. We were at the Wailing Wall, and he was against, not against, he didn't like that young females were also enlisted when they were 18. So we were just leaning against the car near the wailing wall and Menachem looked at this 18-year-old girl holding a, you know, M16 or whatever and said, you see that girl there? I could disarm her in 2.5 seconds.

That was it. He didn't say that about the men, just that girl. No, just that girl, yeah. But he was also tiny, by the way. He was about one foot three. Yeah. Yeah.

Why did you guys choose Israel? My parents travel a lot. We took interesting trips when I was a kid. My dad took great vacations when he was young with his dad. He went to Africa and South America. We'd always wanted to go there. And I was out of college at that point. I studied a lot of Judaism and I just really wanted to go. Did you read Hebrew and stuff? No, I don't read Hebrew. This was just English translations.

Was this right after college that you went? A couple of years, yeah. And were you drinking still? No, I was done by then. What was your bottom like? Did it happen in college? No, after college. It had to happen after college because that was when I realized that other people weren't still doing this as much.

Oh, right. You were like, hey, where you guys going? Yeah, yeah, why don't we, hey, for the next 72 hours, why don't we? Yeah, come on, man. Everyone was like, no, you know. It's not time for bed. Yeah, it was still young, however, I will say

it was apparent that other people had moved on. Right. College was over. And you felt stupid. I felt stupid, I just felt, I thought, I've been coasting on the idea that I'm a good person now for maybe five years. I was like, I remember, I was felt, I thought, I've been coasting on the idea that I'm a good person now for maybe five years. I was like, I remember, I was like, I remember what it felt like to be, to feel good about myself.

And that's, that was about five years ago. And that flicker would kind of help me get through times. But I was like, I don't. So you're starting to feel a little corrupted. I remember thinking to myself, if I was watching this person in a movie, this was the day I stopped. I thought if I was watching this person in a movie this was the day i stopped i thought if i was watching this guy in a movie i wouldn't be rooting for him anymore no matter what happened to him he took a turn he had a breakup blah blah just i wouldn't care by that guy's no good just be like one of those three hour movies where you're like i don't care

they can all die yeah that was it huh andhmm. But did you feel like you were in trouble? Yes. I knew I was not. I knew I was. So in part, they were fun to do drugs, but also you'd get attention for doing them. And I knew that then people would be worried about me. And then that was an interesting amount of attention. Mm-hmm.

And girls would be concerned. Even if they'd broken up with you, they'd be, are you okay? So they'd check in on you. So they'd fill in, kind of, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Cocaine doesn't make girls like you, but it does make them worry about you. Yeah, yeah. And that's what you need.

And were you like, what do you care? Yeah, what do you care? Call me back. Yeah. I might do something bad. I'm in trouble. Yeah, I'm in trouble. Don't call me.

Call me. So then that was all over. I was just like, I'm not, this is nothing but doing it. Yeah. So it was Coke, really? Well, I'm drinking a ton. I just drink and make bad decisions. Sure.

No, Coke keeps you drinking. Sure. Keeps you awake. Yeah. For more drinking. Yeah. But were you like, were you a hostile drunk? Yes, by the end.

I could really snarl. Oh, really? Yeah. No fights though? You don by the end. I could really snarl. Oh, really? Yeah. No fights, though? You don't look like you've taken too many punches. I'd like, no, I've never, exactly. You can tell that just by looking at me. But I, as a type, like, if you were at a party,

and you had on, if you had a cup, like, I'd like, I remember a friend telling me, like, I saw you, you were on the other side of the room, and you came right for me dead-eyed and i walked up to him and i slapped the cup out of his hand and just stared at him he was like you know fuck you john right but i had that kind of like i'd flick your tie and go like what are you gonna do yeah what are you gonna do you're i'm not a phony you're a phony you're a pest i was pest. I was a nuisance. You're like that guy. A little drunk nuisance. Here he comes.

Yeah. He's got that look in his eye. And I looked 12. And you were kind of a dick is what you were. I was becoming a dick, yeah. And what did you hang the primary feelings on? Like, you know, did you, were you unhappy with yourself? Were you, were you, I mean, like, what was it?

Were you chomping at the bit? Were you doing comedy yet? Did you not know what you were doing? I was doing a little bit of comedy, but I didn't want to do, like, I'd started in college. I really liked the first rush. And then I was like, oh, you just got to keep doing it. Yeah.

And sometimes you don't do well, and other people are doing well. I really wanted to have done comedy. Sure. I remember, like, around 2021, I was like, I just wish I'd already done a lot of it and could say I did it. So you're hard on yourself.

I was hard on myself, sure. But I also wasn't doing enough. Like I was just talking about how I wanted to be a comedian or was a comedian or whatever. To all the girls on Coke when you were like, I'm just gonna do it, man. Yes, oh yeah, I mean, yeah. I'm gonna do it.

Yeah, and sort of stretch things I've done. Yeah, sitting there. If I did it, if i was at stand-up new york when there was a conan showcase yeah i'd done it but i hadn't oh so you're a liar yes i was a liar too i was a real liar i i was never i only i'm i'm only a liar if it's absolutely necessary now i am and that was a that was the hardest thing to wean myself off of were lies of convenience just lies because you could i remember feeling that after i stopped drinking i was like oh right i haven't used that muscle of explaining the truth in a long time right i would just say oh my phone was broken or i'd just make something

up right the idea that i would now have to say i i miscalculated the time and i'm sorry you know it's hard right it is hard yeah so but you used to just lie For the hell of it Yeah, I lied for the hell of it I lied to be grandiose And I lied to get out of trouble Or to Not deal with any inconveniences at all Right

Yeah It's a great tool Sure It's very convenient A lot of people don't check up On your lies at all Or you get in one of those situations Where you've lied so much

People are like Okay And they don't They don't even second guess you Because they used to You're not even credible anymore No, you're not on your lies at all. Or you get in one of those situations where you've lied so much, people are like, okay. And they don't even second guess you because they used to. You're not even credible anymore. No, you're not. You're just a hostile witness. Yeah, okie doke.

Okay, we're not going to question this guy anymore. Yeah. So when did you start doing comedy in earnest? I mean, so you moved from D.C. to New York when? You graduated? Yeah, I graduated. Did you do well? I went, I did pretty good.

Yeah. I always tried to keep up appearances, like I said, so that I didn't have to deal with anything. Let's see. When I was 20, I came to New York and I was interning at Comedy Central

in New York. For Jesse Klein and Lou Wallach. Lou Wallach was the head of Comedy Central at the time? Yeah, it was the summer of the Graham Norton effect. Oh, big summer. Big summer.

We all remember where we were. The big summer of failure, the Graham Norton effect. Yeah, but then there was also Chappelle Show, Daily Show, South Park. It was a cool place. What year was that? It was still Let's Bowl and stuff like that. That was the summer of 03.

Okay. So Jessie was a development person. She was a development person at that time. Lou was there, you know, Naomi. Frisch? Yep. Yeah. And what were you doing?

Whatever. Yeah. I like deliver stuff to tough crowd. Right. I would. I was on that show occasionally. Yes, you were. Yeah.

Did you like it? Yeah, loved it. It was exciting. Real things happened. Yeah, I went like it? Yeah, I loved it. It was exciting. Real things happened. Yeah, I went to a lot of tapings of that. That was fun. Now, did you work with Nick and- In college, yeah. And Aziz and those guys?

Oh, yeah. I met Aziz when I moved to New York. But you weren't part of Human Giant. No, I never did anything on that show. But we were all kind of around Rafifi and those places. And Aziz had just been in NYU. Yeah, yeah. Well, Eugene's show, Invite Them Up. That was like the

show to get on. Right, so that was a whole new generation. You were like really, literally part of the next generation, the X-Wave of comedy in New York. Yeah, and I had a very, looking back, had a very comfy time because of that. It was not, it was very friendly. You didn't have to do

open mics at stand-up clubs. I did some. I do Hamburger Harry's. I do So that was very friendly. You didn't have to do open mics at stand up clubs? I did some, I do Hamburger Harry's, I do. So that was early on, sure, right. So you were running around doing those kind of things. Yeah, I'd do those shows, Rock Albers. So you started to do comedy in earnest when you were doing the internship? Yeah, I was about 20.

Right. Yeah. I would do the B3 every week at 3rd and Avenue B. Uh-huh. And Comedy Kabbab in Brooklyn. Right. But. But not stand up, not like the comic strip.

You didn't hang around. I went up at the comic strip once for Lucian Holds. Right. Birbiglia got me a spot. Yeah. To go up in front of him. Yeah. And he said, I've got enough white guys.

Well, Mike went in the other room. He goes, I'll ask Lucian what he thought. Yeah. And he said, I've got enough white guys. Well, Mike went in the other room. He goes, I'll ask Lucian what he thought. Yeah. And then he came out and he went, no, no. And I said, well, what did he say?

And apparently he watched me on the monitor and said, well, no. Like that. Which, having heard other stories about him, that was like, that's very tame.

Were you doing well? Uh, I had like, that's very tame. Were you doing well? I had like two good minutes wherein other comics would help me out. Right. But then there was a, I feel like a year of like, then that was it. You know, I could like get, I could get a spot and invite them up and do well. And then, you know, I'd, and then you'd be uh get another spot months later right and i was like i'd have nothing new then so i just in that world of like okay this these three minutes kind of work uh in downtown new york that plateaued really fast right so i

started going on the road right then i remember i was hosting at the national going on the road i would as a feature no as an mc oh really my emcee week was at the Penguins in Cedar Rapids. So was that under the tutelage of Mike Birbiglia? Yes, I was opening for Mike. So I was hosting. Right, so Mike said you got to do comedy clubs. That's how I started. But that was still pretty cush.

That was still very nice to have someone getting me into those clubs. And also his audience, I imagine, was fairly... He was right at the point where he'd done like a Comedy Central half hour, so- Just starting to build it? He had, a lot of people knew who he was, but he still would have, I think, some of those nights where the audience

was just there for Zanies or there for Penguins. Right, but he got you into that experience. He got you working as a comic. Absolutely, and realizing I sucked. At a year in. Absolutely, and realizing I wasn't a comic. I was like a writer of jokes. But he helped you?

Yes. You feel permanently in debt? Oh, absolutely. Indebted to Mike for Big League? Oh yeah, I went on the road for him for 30 days straight. And that was like a huge turning point. Was it a lesson? Well, the lesson for me was like before that tour

with Mike, I always wanted the show to be canceled. I always wanted to have done a show and be- Again, you wanted it behind you. Yes, I wanted it behind me. And that after doing 30 days straight where you just had to, I had to emcee every night, I started to want to do the show itself. So you were getting into it. Yeah.

You started to get it. You watched Mike- He also told me in a very like cool, direct way. He was like, hey, you have to be better if you're going to open these shows. In a very like, hey, you can't like, you know. But your joke writing. You can't softly throw your jokes under the bus and act like you don't give a shit when you do. Oh, that's a good point because that's like a defense mechanism.

Absolutely. And it also felt like you had to start, or I felt I had to be, it felt like at Rafifi, places like that, you had to begin clumsily and act clumsy. Yeah, you had to act cute and undermine yourself. Yeah, the best joke would be a joke. Don't tell me you don't act cute. I knew how to do that.

Okay, yeah. But in Nashville, when I had to do the announcements that Killer Bees was coming, I had to bring the fucking energy. Better save up. Yeah. Yeah. James Gregory, the funniest man in America, will be here next week, and now let's make some noise for your headliner.

Yeah. Mike Birbiglia. But he gave you a sort of work ethic. He told you what was wrong with the way you were presenting your jokes. He, he obviously had faith in you as a joke writer. Yeah. He thought I was very funny. I, I, I like, you know, followed him around a lot and, and would try to pitch jokes to

him and stuff. And, uh, I think he thought I was a funny guy. Yeah. Cause I, I, uh, one time when I was visiting, he was working on his, uh, half hour special and I just, I just went with him like everywhere when he was running. Did you help him? Dangerfields. No, not really in the end.

I think I was so excited just to go, what do you think of this? And I go, that's great. Well, it's interesting because you are joke heavy. I mean, you are a joke teller. You have a very fast pace. You're a written guy. Yeah. You're not necessarily riffing.

No. No. More so now, but not for a long time. Right, right, when I saw you, I mean, you were doing something a little more personal. I saw you at, where did I see you? I saw you at a small theater of some kind. Why were you doing? Was it Montreal? Maybe, it was a long set about a proctological examination.

St. Catherine Theater? Yeah, yeah, they had posts with that story. Oh, it was your one person show, right. I did a show there and I went to see your one man show. Yes, you came, I was very flattered by that. Yeah, yeah. They had posted that story. Oh, it was your one-person show. Right. I did a show there, and I went to see your one-man show. Yes, you came. I was very flattered by that. Yeah, yeah. It was great.

But that was you venturing into autobiographical stuff, because my recollection of you previous to that was very clever jokes with a lot of good references, many of which I didn't get because I'm too old. Right. I'd do a joke about the movie Ray, Yeah. And it would be good for a month. Sure. Yeah. Yeah, but that was sort of what you did.

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. That was how you conceived. But did you feel- But I had no sense of myself, not that I do yet now, but- That's sort of a weird, dodgy topic for you in a way. What was that?

Well, just, you know, who's in there, John? Exactly, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, because I can hear like sometimes your laugh is a little up here. It's not as deep as it should be. Oh, interesting. And, you know, like you're very together. Because when I saw the one-man show, I was excited for you because I thought, well, you know, he's stepping out.

He's going to do some stuff. There's a moment there during the proctological exam where I was like, are we gay? Are we not gay? What's happening? Right, right, right. And I was like, who is this guy?

You do keep it together somehow. You're kind of a controlled dude. Absolutely. Yeah. It's for me to let out. Right. Right. So what's going to make you

lose your shit? Get angry, you mean? Whatever. I don't get that angry. Where is it all going, John? I mean, probably internal organs are not doing well. I haven't gone to a doctor in five, six years. You're fine.

I might be fine. Come on. I'm relaxing. Everything's going. Everything's relaxing. Come on. You're not like this with your friends like Pete and everybody. On guard.

You're on guard? No, I mean, am I? I don't know. I don't know. Yeah. Is this something that you've heard before? Am I telling you this? Absolutely.

All the time. Yeah? Really? Sure. From your wife? Yeah, sure. Oh, wow. Yeah.

Not in a terrible way. Not like, are you... Where are you, John? Right, right, right. Yeah, who's in there? What's going on? Yeah, there's no there there, is what my parents used to say about Bill Clinton. Oh, right, right Yeah, who's in there? What's going on? Yeah, there's no there there That's what my parents used to say about Bill Clinton

Oh, did they? Yeah There's no there there Sure Who has a there all the time? Yeah, well it's submerged Sure It's for you to know It's for me to know, I don't have to give that to anyone

Well, I thought you were a comedian Well, I give it out in the doses I want to Do you? Yes, I do Okay, fine that's fine john do you think i don't i don't know okay you're just asking well no i think that sometimes um like here's the deal like i you know i listen to your record i watch you perform when i saw you do the story show i was like all right so now i get an idea like i had no idea who you were and i watched you and i'd listened to your stuff before.

And I'm like, he's great. He's got, you know, good clips, got good pace, got good jokes. But who is that guy? Sure. But then again, I've been saying about that about Seinfeld for 30 years. Like, I'm like, I don't know who that guy is. How can I watch a guy for an hour and have no fucking idea who he is? It bothers me.

As time goes on, I realize who Jerry is. And it's not terrific. But the thing is, but, you is and it's not terrific but but the uh the thing is but but you know it's just like if i can't see somebody's vulnerability right almost immediately i'm like he's i don't know either he's really confident or he's fucking with me interesting is it yes because like the fucking with me part of it well yeah but that's my own problem it's just sort of like you know what you know it's it's evasive i know that that comedy being innately funny is a defense mechanism in and of itself but it should reveal some insecurity and i think that um that it may be

there but like until i saw you you know tell stories about your life you know i hadn't i just didn't have a sense of who you were with just a stand-up that's totally fair and now you're evolving out of that you're changing yeah and also i have. That's totally fair. And now you're evolving out of that. You're changing. Yeah, and also I have a life now. I only had those jokes before. Yeah. I only had TV shows and bullshit. But were you meant to,

was that the craft? Are you like, well, even, but it tells different because it tells like, you know, he can't help, he can't help but see exactly who he is. But was writing jokes for you sort of like doodling,

like a math equation, like it was just something you were oh yeah oh i thought of a joke that's great i'll do it i'll put it in my stand-up right yeah right no matter what the topic was you know yeah yeah yeah and i remember i started off trying to write jokes about topics no one else had jokes about yeah like what like the liberty bell i wrote a joke about the liberty bell what was that it was that it's i remember writing it because i'd never heard a joke about the Liberty Bell. Yeah. How precious is that? Yeah.

No, it's good. The joke was that it's supposed to be this patriotic symbol, but it's broken. So it's like we fought this war for our independence, and the first thing we do is break something nice. Like we're a bunch of special ed kids who finally get unsupervised recess, and we come in after 30 minutes like Ernie fell. That was the joke. There's a lot of words in there. I know. Look how rapidly I got through it, avoiding eye contact.

But that was his style. It just keeps going. It keeps going, sure. Amazing clip, too. Do you ever, like, when you take pause, when everything sort of slows down, what do you feel? Uncomfortable? I feel very comfortable on stage. Right now, yeah.

Yeah. You saw my worst set ever i think at that one man show no in aspen did i yes you don't remember that of course you wouldn't that was a huge moment in my life and not but i was there you were the host i met you that uh weekend uh i hosted for you and Tosh. You guys were co-headlining a show. This was... Oh, my God. You were wearing American apparel jackets and overcoats a lot during that time.

Sure, sure. So you were very nice to me. Yeah. I had just seen you on Conan. Yeah. And I really liked that joke you did about your mom calling you and asking you what you thought of this guy Sabu.

And you saying, Mom, do you mean Barack Obama? So I told you that at the Tosh. I got to host for you and Tosh. And then I think you were co-headlining a show with Showalter and Mary Lynn. Yeah, that sounds about right. That sounds right. And then I did my second, so you have these showcases at Aspen.

You do like, it was me, and it wasn't Kyle Kinane and Dan Mintz, but they were also there that year. So it was like people, that age group, we would go. We'd do our five minute sets. And I kind of, I didn't do well the first one. This was, so then I hosted for you and Tosh. I did a little better.

And then this was like the second showcase that I was was going to do and it was in the big tent yeah you remember that thing yeah and i walked up on stage and i started to talk it was uh you reminded me of it when you said my laugh was up here i couldn't breathe at all hard to breathe there couldn't breathe at all though and my first joke i remember this died it died and then uh oh my god i remember this panic rolled over right but you were having trouble i was having real trouble right in the bombing sense and also i couldn't breathe and to this day i don't know if i was having a panic attack or elevation sickness but there was like concern like you you got off stage and it was like you were yeah you and uh uh you and mike di stefano uh

were very nice to me backstage they got me an oxygen tank i remember this right right and uh mike di stefano sat with me for a little while you came and checked on me which i always never forgot you're very cool in that moment and you came on stage and uh uh so i bomb and almost die. You come back on stage and said some nice things about my set and kind of used one of my jokes to get into one of your jokes. It felt, I remember hearing it and going, oh, he's really trying to make it seem

like that went fine. And it really didn't. And everyone was there. I remember some guy that worked for like, Conoco was in the front row. Right. And I was like, he saw me bomb. I remember some guy that worked for like Conoco was in the front row. Right. And I was like, he saw me bomb. I'll never go to Conoco.

I remember this now. It's coming back to me. Right? And so I was really like, I'm done. Because I was in bad shape because that must have been right after my wife left. And I must have been. Your wife was there. Oh, that was that time.

Yes. What year was that? 2006 maybe. 2006. Okay that was that time. Yes. What year was that? 2006, maybe. 2006? Okay. Yeah, 2006. Right. That's where I went up on stage and did the storytelling show that was probably the end of my marriage.

I remember she was there. I remember running into Stephen Wright. I remember hosting that thing because I remember Stephen Baldwin was one of the bald ones. No, Billy. Billy Baldwin was one of the bald ones. No, Billy. Billy Baldwin was on the show with me. Yes. And he was around and backstage at that tent thing. That's right. I remember bits and pieces of it.

You were hanging out with your wife and Billy Baldwin. Right. Right. Yes. Now, I remember being backstage and then I'd go outside, smoke cigarettes, and I was drinking coffee backstage this is why I also wonder if I had like a panic attack you were smoking then yeah I was smoking at in Aspen Elevation for the first time I mean I don't know why no it's hard to breathe so okay

so I saw one of the worst sets I do not remember it that way I do remember now that you were in trouble no one remembered it at all because everyone was so drunk right and so it was a rough night it was weird because it wasn't there was so drunk right and so it was a rough night it was weird because it wasn't there was industry there but there's always also a lot of like drunky regular people oh there were like men in fur coats right in the front row right because it was like beautiful bronze was it outdoors and heated yeah there were heat lamps in a tent in the middle of cold ass yeah it was weird man only dan mince remembers it he was in the back of the tent and he brings it up all the time.

He said it was like watching a beautiful train wreck. Because I came out confident, and the jokes were probably pretty good. Yeah. But there was nothing doing from second one. Right. And as soon as nothing was happening, I remember that feeling of air from the bottle. I had air in my throat and nowhere else oh it was terrifying right and i went long because i kept because my closers kept not working

right so i did more closers and i remember like you know when you got off you were like you know in trouble yeah i i i hated uh all it was like you know when you faint and everyone surrounds you I hated all the attention so much I wanted to absolutely die but you know it turned out okay yeah but I was so scared it's funny I remember you and Mike DiStefano being really nice

and he was like it's gonna be okay you're fucking funny it doesn't matter I got a meeting with james dixon he told me that while i was breathing in air i got a meeting with james dixon well i'm glad you have a good memory of me that's nice i have a lot of nice ones you were always very nice to me um all right so then like let's let's get up to uh where everything starts to change so you intern at comedy central for how long oh just a year. So you come back from the road with Barbiglia? About 06. I'm kind of starting to

feature. I did Conan for the first time. Right. Then I went and did Aspen and bombed. Right. And almost died. Well, you need to take the hits sometimes. You need to. You gotta take hits. Yeah. And then I was kind of off. I was like on the road sometimes with Barbiglia,

sometimes on my own. Started writing for like, I started doing that show Best Week Ever on VH1. So that was easy. As a talking head guy? Yeah, you just go to Midtown, you go to that 1633 Broadway building and talk in front of colored paper for like an hour.

Yeah. You get a couple hundred bucks. That was a very good time. And then I did like a NACA sure right hosted a NACA that's the National Association

of Colleges or whatever yeah it's the National Association of Bombing in a hotel ballroom and then in front of a lot of student activities people

in front of a lot of student activities people yeah who can often be very interesting people and then you stand in a booth yeah selling yourself with

yes next to like sword swallowers and the principal from Saved by the Bell. With your headshots up on the wall. Sure. But what's at stake there is that, you know, theoretically, if you got 20 colleges for the year,

that's a lot of money for a guy starting out. I remember I got five and that was a lot of money. Yeah, hell yeah. And then I did that. How'd you do with the kids? Medium. Yeah. Very, I was like young looking,

but my jokes weren't college fun. Right. It was a weird fit. Well, you're black Irish. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There was a darkness that they didn't appreciate. You have a history. Yeah.

They wanted me to do like, you know, just. You were the guy that knocked cups out of people's hands and you were hiding that now. And I would flip ties. Yeah. That was not who you were. This is a new John. This is a new John.

They would have liked the old John. Yeah, sort of, but they wanted like fun college and I only had like strange darkness of college. You ever just put on a hoodie and put on your headphones and walk drunk? Smoke cigarettes by yourself? Yeah, think about everything. Think your life's over even though you're like 19. When did you get off the smokes?

I've had them in the past couple months. Yeah? Yeah. Oh, you were never a big smoker. No, I was. I smoked a lot, a lot, a lot at Saturday Night Live. Yeah? And then smoked all through college. I like knowing that.

Yeah. Yeah, it makes me feel better about you. Oh, I have many addictions and issues that I have to grapple with like that. Like what else? Well, I have to avoid a lot of things. Like what? Well, I have to avoid a lot of things. Like what? Well, just like,

you know, anytime I take a Klonopin, I want three. No, I know that one. Yeah. Okay. And cigarettes. I go like,

why are you chain smoking? Oh, because you are still trying to fill some void. Well, is it just a void? Maybe you're not, I want you to be angry. I think you're angry. I have anger, but it diffuses quickly.

Hmm. I'd say that. That doesn't sound very black Irish to me. Well, I mean, you're just a brooder. I'm very also like just. Sober. USA too, you know? Sure.

I had a very nice upbringing despite things I did to myself. And also I think things are, you know, went pretty well for you. Yes. And also we were one of those families also i think i think things are you know went pretty well for you yes and also we were one of those families where it was like hey you know things could be worse look at that guy he's got hooks for hands at the hot dog stand and stuff so i was always putting things in perspective was like you had some gratitude all the way through all all yeah very much so yeah right so when do you get the gig at uh how does it how do you get snl how's that? I auditioned in the summer of 2008. So I'd been, I'd written for a couple shows.

I wrote on Dimitri Martin's Comedy Central show for a summer, and then I worked on this pilot with Mike Black and Mike Showalter, and then, but I was still just kind of doing stand-up. But these guys are respected. You must look good on the page. I had like a funny packet for each. Yeah. And then I auditioned in August of 08 for SNL.

I found out on a Tuesday I was going to audition on a Thursday. And then I just was like, I cannot put together a audition of impressions and shit like that. So I just did stand up. But was that ever your thing, though? No, but I thought I should. Right. Because everyone who was getting their audition ready was writing all new pieces.

Like, I'm going to come up with three characters and a Gordon Ramsay impression. Right. And I was like, I'll just eat shit if I do that. Right. And I only had about 48 hours. Right. I'll just eat shit if I do that. Right.

And I only had about 48 hours. Right. So I went out. I think I did like maybe Death Ray and then Jimmy Dore's show after it or something. And I was out in L.A. for some reason and I had to fly from L.A. to New York. Right. And I just went in two days later and did like, I just did like a stand up set. Right. And I got hired as a writer where was that where was the audition it was actually on conan stage on the sixth floor

of oh so you went right to 30 rock they didn't come see you at a club no they i'd done stuff i'd done monologues for the ascat show that like seth myers and amy poehler would do so i'd met them a little yeah and uh set Seth recommended me to the show, and I'd been on Conan a couple times, so I think Ayala Cohn, who worked there, had seen tape of me or whatever. And what was your experience meeting Warren? So I auditioned, and I met him a few days later.

At his office? Yeah, at his office. Did you wait? No, because I was there for another reason, and they sprung the meeting on me. I didn't even know he was there. Why were you there? Because you were already hired. I was already hired. I think I was moving a another reason and they sprung the meeting on me. I didn't even know he was there. Why were you there? Cause you're already hired.

I was already hired. I think I was like, you know, moving a desk or something. Yeah. Uh, I was, so I was in Higgins office and they said,

Oh, Lauren's here. He wants to talk to you. And I went in there and it was about a one minute meeting. He just said, uh, uh, do you have siblings?

And I said, yeah. And he said, where are they? And I said, Oh, they're back in Chicago. And he went, they're back in Chicago. And I said, yeah. And he said, where are they? And I said, they're back in Chicago. And he went, they're back in Chicago. And now you're here. And I said, yeah.

And he did say you were very funny, which was really nice. Yeah. And I said, thank you so, you know, I went into this like, thank you so much. It's an honor. And he went, no, no, no, no, no.

Sort of waved that off. Yeah. And then that was it. Got up and walked out. And you were up there for how long? Four and a half years. Was your first year hard? My first year was not.

It was scary, but it was really exciting. Yeah. That was the fall of 08 when- Who was the cast? Bill Hader, Kristen Wiig, Jason Sudeikis, Daryl Hammond, Amy Poehler, Seth Meyers. They don't seem like good people. Great people. It doesn't sound like you got in after all the weird competitive

110%. All that shit from the books that we've read, that was all over. Because Mike Shoemaker and Seth Meyers had created a really, really nice environment. As the head writers. As producers and head writers, it was just like

the writers all worked together there was no sense of competition what was higgins at that time yeah higgins was great too was he the head writer who was the head higgins was a producer seth was head writer okay um there was no sense of like uh well this person gets iced out if it's their piece everyone's stuff was sort of enjoyed and heard and uh the cast was so amazing and uh yeah that was a really really nice time and then also that was the election of 2008 which was a very big time for the show right uh so my first year was great my first year was really fun i came back my second year is more like i thought i'd figured it out and got my ass kicked for the fall sort of yeah why what i just was like you know figured i knew what i was doing so when i would get stuff cut or get lauren would get mad at me about something it was like i was suddenly spinning

out like i didn't he got mad at you well i mean just get frustrated with a sketch or something under bleachers like really you're gonna open with that well you know that type of thing yeah uh that was like i had had a very nice beginning yeah if there ever was a tough time i'd say the beginning of my second season i just remember feeling and then what that leveled off and you did two more years and you started to do on camera stuff and what yeah that leveled off uh that also i don't i don't know why i blew that out of proportion. That was like, you know, a few shows of feeling like. Do you feel like you know Lorne and you're close to him? Close?

I don't know. But I've gotten to know him pretty well. Yeah? Yeah. Yeah. I don't know how close. You know, he's been, I've talked to him a lot in the past couple of years, I feel like. Right.

With the TV show. The TV show that he you know is producing what's let's focus on that for a second because like so it seemed to me like before you did the tv show that the buzz was you know you're going to be the update guy you were the heir apparent there are no heirs apparent in show business fine you know what i'm saying that i understand what you're saying but having but that was the word on the street was that not the word that you got uh i did some update features right i entertained the idea that i might get it but word on the street versus what you hear at a place like that is different but what was lauren saying to you

during that time i mean you weren't going to get fired from SNL. You were writing. You were starting to do stuff on camera. You were developing a relationship with that guy. What was he telling you? What was he teaching you? What did you think was going to happen for you? I knew I was developing a lot as a writer

and I was made a producer on the show and I knew I was doing very well there. Honestly, I did not know where I stood in terms of that. Performing. Yeah, which is a very common thing there. As I said, it was very, very friendly. There was also still things that are cryptic and strange. Did you want to do update?

Sure, of course. And was it ever offered to you? It was not offered and I, it was not offered like, do it was not offered like do you want to do it right now right i think it was maybe a possibility right but i then did a special that you that what you saw in montreal then i recorded that in august or something for comedy central comedy central uh that special came out and i was a writer there and the special was you know it was small well reception but it got a nice reception so i was kind of like i think maybe i'll move on

that's interesting you and hannibal yeah and well yeah hannibal went to 30 rock and then was was gone but the decision was i'm gonna do stand-up absolutely yeah absolutely i've had enough of this writing for snl thing uh i miss it still but yeah i was ready to go so you told lauren you're leaving yeah well let me think i told him i was leaving but i wanted to create a show so it was kind of like i'd like to continue working together you know oh so you asked him to produce your show? Yeah. I mean, when you work for NBC and Broadway Video, it's not, I don't know if it is mandatory. No, my point is there's a sort of natural thing

to talk to them first about developing something. So he wanted to know, what are you going to do? What do you want to do? Yeah, it was like all one meeting of, I'd like to develop this show, and I don't think I'm coming back. And he said what? In that meeting, I think he thought I should take some time to think about it right which was true but he was also really liked the idea of doing a show i think maybe we talked

about would i be able to do both and i thought i can't do that and what was the last show he so 30 rock was his show as well right he didn't, at that time he was doing 30 Rock and Up All Night. So it seemed like all a natural, you know, I was like, oh, okay, well, this works out well. Yeah. So my last show was Mick Jagger was the host. Did you talk to Mick? Yeah, I spent a lot of time with him, actually. You did?

Yes, because I would write a lot of the monologues. Yeah. So I would hang with those people in their dressing room because that's the thing that people were the most hands-on about right there's a one moment that they're themselves right so i spent a lot of time with mick jagger i spent a lot of time with elton john uh it was it was just an interesting way to like shadow those people was to work on the monologue because you constantly have to go in their dressing room and what was your impression of Mick? I really liked him. Yeah. But he was like- Was he nervous? No, no.

He is a famous, famous person. Yeah. He looks famous. Even if he wasn't in the Rolling Stones, if you saw him on the street, you'd go, oh, can I pay money to look at you? He has like really, I just remember staring at his hair and going like this guy's like 22

and i know that's said about him like oh he still has the energy of a 20 but i was like this is like a young person and uh just like you know long eyes yeah long eyeballs and the face i was just like this is a fascinating person he was uh he was mick jagger so he was very he'd been mick jagger of his whole life he was very famous yeah he was like uh those people that have played arenas just have a different outlook yeah i don't mean mean or um they're not diva-ish but i think there's just like uh he never had that thing of like uh just being anything but mick jagger he would never be like, oh, does anyone have a laptop cord I could borrow? He was just very direct. I remember he would always be like,

like, no, not funny. And like in comedy, you rarely hear not funny. Yeah. I mean, you do sometimes. Right. But he had to say it. So he was saying- He would go, no, I don't like that.

Not funny. And like Elton John, and by the way not mean like you knew they were just like what's the fastest way to uh make this conversation go yeah elton john would go no not doing it no are we done yes okay i'll do that yes are we done good are we done good it was very like i tour i have things to do i'm elton john i've been elton john for 30 years yeah are we done yeah you know, yeah, I wrote a song with Mick Jagger. There was a sketch with a song in it.

I was helping him write lyrics. Yeah. And it was just me and him sitting in his dressing room. Who was playing an instrument? No one. We were just writing lyrics. Okay. And he said, all right, what rhymes with drink?

And there was a long pause, and I said, brink? And he went, now. And then there was another long pause, and I went, sink? And he went, yeah. And I was like, motherfucker, is this how you write songs? It was great. So that's fun. You got to hang out with a lot of those people who were hosting?

Sure, they have no idea that they ever were in a room with me, but yes, I got these weird hours sitting with these people. Who were some other ones that left an impression on you? I loved Danny DeVito. He was amazing. He's a comedy guy. Yeah, but he was doing a cameo in Charlie Day's monologue. He just spent a lot of time working on it

because I was a huge fan of his, so I would stretch out the time as much as possible. And we would just write pages and pages of stuff that was unusable. For a cameo? Yeah, for a cameo. Just like long, so many rewrites. And I go, I'll put this on cards.

And then that would jam up cue cards for like an hour. And then we'd do like most of it wouldn't work. We just had a fun couple days. And then my favorite thing about him was he met my then girlfriend at the after party. And she was a big fan of his from Always Sunny and many other things. But he was as excited to meet her as she was to meet him. I don't know why. He was like, hey, what do you do?

She said, I'm a makeup artist and a hairstylist. He goes, I used to work in a hair salon. He was like just on it. It was great. Sweet guy. McCartney was very nice. McCartney knew how to give everyone maybe 45 seconds of, I know how big of a deal this is to you,

and I'm going to listen to the thing you have to say to me, and I'll take it in, and it was very interesting to see how he was like, I know how big of a deal this is to you. My mom came to a show he did and she would have rushed him if she could. At the after party she went by his table but he had a couple bodyguards. It was a closed booth.

My mom couldn't get in at that moment. But she blew a kiss to him and he blew a kiss back. He's a classy guy. Class act. She said he knows what that means to a woman of my age. Mm. Yeah.

Nice. He gets it. Yeah. Paul McCartney. Paul McCartney of the Beatles band. Yeah, the famous Beatles. So who are the comics that you grew up loving? The first comic I remember knowing or watching on TV was Dennis Wolfberg.

Sure. With the eyes. Yeah. And the intensity. watching on TV was Dennis Wolfberg. Sure. With the eyes. Yeah.

Yeah. And then he was from Chicago, but I watched him a lot on, uh, you know, comic strip live or whatever those shows were. Uh, and then like George Carlin stuff, but I must've been in like junior high then.

And I was already sort of a comedy fanatic. Right. So like, uh, yeah, but before that, just like all the standups of the 80s and 90s. Right. I just watched.

We had Comedy Central then. I mean, you grew up with Comedy Central kind of, right? Or was it just, there was a show, and I, it was not Evening at the Improv. It was called Comic Strip Live. Sure.

Right? Yeah. And it just, I watched that all the time. Right. So you're a comedy fan. I liked everyone, Amazing Jonathan.

I just liked anyone I saw on TV. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then I got into albums in, that same age when I got into Monty Python and found out what Caddyshack was. Right. Find out what Led Zeppelin was. Right, you started buying comedy records as well?

Yeah, started buying comedy albums. And then just, I had tons of comedy albums, tons of old radio show things. I liked everything. So you were always gunning for it. I knew what I was doing. Yeah. So now, all right, so Lauren agrees to develop this show.

Yeah. And he secures a deal for you at NBC? I think I maybe had already talked to NBC about doing something. Maybe they were aware of me. But he was behind you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you get an agreement from NBC to develop a show. Yes.

And you write the pilot. Yes. And you shoot the pilot. We shot the pilot. And they said, okay, let's do how many? No, NBC passed on it. Okay. So now Lauren's like, this is ridiculous.

He said, we'll take it to fox it's so weird though nbc is his house there was nothing there was no conversation you were privy to that that made you like because obviously he believed in the show oh yeah absolutely but he didn't say like i can't believe they just didn't want this downstairs uh I'm trying to think. I mean, as successful as he's been, he's also had a lot of these. Yeah. So he was immediately, I mean, full confidence that it would go. Yeah. Which I also, not knowing anything, was confident that it would go.

And then when it didn't go, it was kind of like, I just remember him saying, this is, they don't know what they had and blah blah blah and uh made you feel better totally totally and also said like getting knocked down is really good for you which it is yeah so uh but then then it was immediately like fox was interested in it so i feel like there was like a there was not much 72 hour period of dead. And then it was like, Oh, maybe were you panicking at all?

I mean, did you know, I was just really, really sad. Cause I was never going to get to, I thought I'd never get to work with like Martin short and Elliot Gould and just work on that stage again. And just everything about it was like,

Oh, I wish I loved it. You were like, this is what I loved it. I loved it. I, I wish I'd known that was going to be the last time where, you know,

I had those just really like, ugh. So then Fox picks it up for what? Six? Six. We made six episodes last fall and then we made seven episodes from the summer to like a month ago. And now it's in trouble.

Well, yeah, but it was in trouble from the beginning. Why? Well, the ratings were low. No, but what, on your your side what do you think was the issue oh no no i don't think it was in trouble uh when making it was a joy and it was actually a really incredible show you wanted to make absolutely 100 all the way oh do i go back and look at joke to joke things no but uh i maybe think about changing a thing here or there. Right.

But not the fundamentals, not the bones of it. Right. Oh, yeah. And you were there through all the writing. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was my show. Right. Full script approval.

Absolutely. And it was very pleasant working with Fox. It wasn't like one of those crazy developments where they say, well, can you and Nassim Pedra date each other and all that shit right but I mean and also you're you know you seem to have your head on your shoulders in terms of to them it's show business you know to you it's your show right life but to them it's like let's see what happens right I think having been passed on at NBC also I knew it could get taken away at any time but did what was the when you thought about like you know the the kind of immediate comparisons to seinfeld or to the structure of being a comic

right you know i mean did that bother you no because i'd been working on so then i developed this show starting in uh 2012 with nbc right and i decided to be a comedian because i wanted to do stand-up on the show right So I was aware that those comparisons were going to be made for like two years. So when people started making them, I was only surprised by how many people made them because I just was like, isn't that boring after a while?

To make the comparison. It is what I do. So now where is the show? The show's on Sunday nights. It's still on. You said there was trouble. You meant like the problems? No, I mean like, you know, I think from an outsider's point of view, it looks like they're moving it around.

Yeah, it's a bumpy time right now. It's a bumpy time. Yeah, for sure. For sure. We got, we did not come out as a huge ratings hit right away. And, you know, I love the show. Some people do not. Right.

And what do you think is going to happen? I have no idea. You really don't know? You know, look, what happens to shows that have low ratings and don't take off as critical successes? They can get smoked. Yeah. And maybe that's going to happen. Yeah. But I don't take off as critical successes, they can get smoked. Yeah. And maybe that's going to happen.

Yeah. But I don't know. The one thing I've learned in all this is like, I have no fucking clue what's going to happen with these things. And what if the worst happens? What are you going to do? I'm on tour right now. And how's your crowd?

Is he pulling people? It's been really fun, yeah. You're getting people? People are like, we want to see John you pulling people it's been really fun yeah you're getting people people are like we want to see john mulaney it's been good yeah there's now that thing of like oh they came to see me yeah it's great it's a good that's a really good feeling i'm i'm really actually i love making this show i'm really excited after a couple years of like working in a studio yeah and an office right back on the Right. So it's fun to do stand-up. Yeah.

And then if the worst happens, endless tour. Endless tour. Yeah. Until you put another show together. Yeah. But I loved this show. This was the show I wanted to make. I think it'd be a little while before I'd want to develop a thing again.

Are you scared? Are you sad? Yeah, I'm a little scared. Yeah. And then I'm sort of like, I'm watching it all a little uh i don't know why if you told me if you show me this on paper and we're like hey here's things people are going to say about your show and here's what the ratings are going to be and it's going to be a struggle if you showed me that a year ago i go i'm going to be completely freaking out i'm kind of watching

it a little disassociated and it's kind of interesting. Right. Because it's like, how strange. Like, what an interesting thing to go through. Oh, so you're in... I'm sort of watching it...

You're in denial and you're stuffing your feelings. Uh, no. I'm aware it's happening. I'm just not feeling it right now. Right. I'm sort of watching it like, that's interesting.

Now, does Lorne call you and say, don't worry about it. It's going to be, you know, whatever happens. Yeah, yeah, we've talked a lot about that. Yeah, like, what does he say? It's just very nice. I mean, like, it is scary.

And he'll say, you know, you're going to be fine. Yeah. And he said it's, the good news is it's a good show. Right. And like, you can, you know, the longer you're on the air,

the longer you're on the air the longer you're on the air i'm glad that fox is airing all of these 13 i really hope people get invested in it i have no i have zero idea though if that will turn around or if we'll come back and it'll still be a struggle and we'll and we'll keep battling it out i love making this show and i really love those people so it's hard for me to be sad because I did it. Yeah. Like I did it. No, absolutely. I know.

But I'm scared. I mean, and I'm like, oh, that's this is strange. Well, it's interesting. Like your name's on it, right? It's called. Yeah. When people say Mulaney sucks, that's me. Or I hate Mulaney or I hate John Mulaney or things like that.

But I know I also understand the other side of that. Having done the show on IFC, it's not as big a profile, but there's this idea that when you do 10 of them or 12 or 13, there is part of you that's sort of like, well, I did it. I did it. Yes, absolutely. Because you go, well, I had maybe 16 stories to tell and I told 13 of them and that's

great good it's out there and you know I and it was it's a bear making the damn things it's huge so it was an incredible amount of work I definitely get that it's a good it's a good position to have you know very good because like you know at IFC I really didn't know what was going to happen I don't even know what it's based on necessarily so the idea was to make the best 10 shows I could and feel good about them all the way through. Like knowing that you made your own decisions and you had creative control is not nothing. No, and just being in charge

and accepting that you're in charge and learning how to be in charge was invaluable enough. Absolutely. You know, and going like, oh, okay, this is a burden to be in charge, but there's also great, interesting freedom in it. Right, I like to pretend like i'm not in charge i did that for a while yeah i go who's gonna figure that out and then everyone was looking to me and i thought oh but you guys are being paid right but then you realize it's better if you figure it out it's also my

i didn't realize that i was like i surely i'll look to some adult in the room now what's it what if lauren said let's say the worst dick happens. They're like, okay, it's done. And Lauren says, you want to come back to SNL? Come back to SNL? Yeah. Oh, as a writer? Yeah, and maybe a performer.

Oh, I don't know. I don't know if that would happen. Oh. What if it did? I mean, I'm in no position to turn down work, Mark. What are you talking about? Oh, could I be on a show that's not gonna be canceled ever that everyone well people criticize that too but you know you can roll with it because it's a variety but you're okay and the comedy's going good and your parents are happy they're i think they're happy yeah with you yeah yeah yeah we, yeah. Yeah, we're good. Yeah?

Yeah. All right. Well, I mean, it's like, why did I hesitate? It's just, you know, it's a funny question. Are your parents good with you? Yeah, well, it's scary when their kid goes in the show business and then there's all this, you know, there's all this excitement. I think, you know, part of the thing was I was always trying to assure them

how predictable it was. Or rather, I was trying to show them it was not unpredictable. I was like, Mom, it's very, very solid. Look at this. It's like a doctor. I've got an order of episodes from a major network called Fox, right? It's, you know, I'm going to go in every day. I'm going to make this.

And then suddenly it was like, Mom, I don't know. They're going to take my show off the air. And I'm sorry it's your last name too. And I don't know what I'm doing. I had a lot of that yeah autonomy suddenly my mom yeah it's been fun it's been fun uh because like if you have a google alert you can't things are going great mom yeah like that era where you could go visit your parents and there was no internet and you could go i'm i'm a doctor and i'm married yeah oh we're so proud of you you

know like that go back to your single bedroom yeah then you go back to your single bedroom apartment. Yeah, then you go back to your squat. Yeah. No, you can't do that now. She's got the Google alert. She's got a Google alert. She knows what's up. Oh, and she calls you?

Your time slot moved. What does that mean? She calls you, are you okay? Yeah. Well, yeah. One person was very mean. I know, Mom.

Yeah. I turned the alert off three months ago. So this has brought you closer to your mother it's good to uh it's been good to be knocked down to the ground yeah because like i always thought i was a grounded person yeah and then you get knocked down and you go oh that's where the ground is you gotta write that down um okay it'll be on tape if you need it uh in this episode of WTF.

It is on tape, yeah. Well, I hope that everything works out. I feel like you'll be all right. I think it'll be fine. No matter what, who cares? We're all going to pass away and die. There's the John I'm looking for. There it is.

Look. Yeah, existential man. I'll do a series of these with you, and we'll get to the bottom of it. Frost Nixon. Well, let's call it a day then. I think we did all right. I think we did great.

It was nice to see you. Thanks for having me on this. So when do you think you're going to hear, though, about the destiny of the show? Could it be like any second? I feel, well, it could be any second, right? But I also feel like, I just have this feeling it's not going to be any second.

I feel like this moment in time will last for a long time. Oof, it's hard. But maybe it won't. Maybe I'll get, maybe my phone, when I take it off airport mode, there'll be nine messages. What's the best thing that can happen? What's the best thing that can happen?

Yeah, like they say like, all right, we're gonna reconfigure it or we're gonna give it a better time slot. I mean, what's the best thing? The best thing that can happen with a TV show now is just time, more time. Because I, what, what's the best thing? The best thing that can happen with the TV show now is just time more time. Cause I don't, I actually don't care.

The time slot thing's fine with me because it's like, okay, well, was it, was it, uh, hitting it out of the park at that time? No.

So move it. Who cares? Everyone's watching it on Hulu or DVR anyway. Right. Right. Yeah. So it truly doesn't matter. It doesn't look good,

but like, it's probably a good way to get some new people to see it to move it earlier in the night so what's happening as of today

is that it was moved to 7.30 from 9.30 just for posterity's sake yeah on Sundays so it doesn't fucking matter when the show's on

people don't watch people don't watch TV great well it was good talking to you it was great talking to you it was great talking to you man all right buddy john's a good kid good ending it'll be all right whatever happens that kid will be all right that kid listen to me he's a grown man something comes out of me sometimes when i speak to the younger

folks don't forget folks about the frame the new arts and culture news show produced by southern california public radio and vulture.com every day the frame covers the important stories in the arts and culture world talking to the people who make the things you love you can get it on itunes stitcher tune in and at the frame.org so go subscribe to the frame dig it Go to wtfpod.com. We're restocking shit for the holidays. I hope it wasn't too negative today

at the beginning. It's just one of those days, man. I went on a hike. I guess I just gotta breathe. I mean, here's the deal. A lot of stuff is going on. We're writing this show. You know, sometimes I don't always acknowledge just how much is really going on, you know,

with me and my life. And, you know, I think that as a way of, as a stress release kind of thing, or a stress relief, I just focus on the negative. That's the weird thing. kind of thing or a stress relief. I just focus on the negative. That's the weird thing.BGM Oh Boomer lives! legalization. It's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big

corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com.