WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 553 - Julia Sweeney

Episode Date: November 23, 2014

With her wit and kind nature, Julia Sweeney proves she can make an irresistibly entertaining conversation out of topics like death, cancer, loss of faith, divorce, alcoholism, insecurity and, of course, SNL. Plus, food talk in advance of Thanksgiving with Marc's old friend Dan Pashman, host of The Sporkful and author of Eat More Better. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost almost anything. So no, you can't get an ice rink on Uber Eats. But iced tea and ice cream? Yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats. Get almost almost anything. Order now.

Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction.

Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com. Lock the gates! Alright, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers, what the fuck buddies, what the fucking ears, what the fuck nuggets, what the grudge fuckers, and what the fucking knots.

How are you? Mark Maron here. Nice to see you. Glad to be here. Hey, between us, this is not on Twitter yet, Brian Jones mugs are back. They're up now. BrianRJones.com. Go get the hand-thrown, very unique WTF Guest Swag Mug. This mug was only made available by me giving it to people, to guests on the show and then brian does them in small batches very small usually of about 50 so they go i promised you guys i would talk about it before i tweeted it so i'm telling you about i can't guarantee it'll be there the

guy can only do so much he's one man he's one man with a wheel julia sweeney is on the show today it's very nice of her to come by she doesn't't come out this way very often. I believe she's up in the Chicago area. But it was amazing to talk to her. Just what a great person, an amazing talent. And now we're all grown up, folks. We're growing up. And that's going to become very apparent. As you know, it happens to everybody if you're lucky.

If you're one of the lucky ones, you get to watch yourself get old. Yay. But, you know, take care of yourself. Eat right. Well, I guess that's what I'm getting at. I know it's Thanksgiving. All right. Thanksgiving is coming up Thursday.

I will give my Thanksgiving pep talk on Thursday. I will reserve that for then. Me, I was not going to go to Florida. I was not going to go. I believe I'm going. I'm going to leave it a little cryptic. I'm going to go. You know, I'm going to go see my mommy. We're heading into it, folks. We're heading into food. We're heading into shame. We're heading into food shame. We're heading into family shame. We're heading into the reality that people we haven't seen in maybe a year or another year older. People are getting fragile.

People are going through shit. There's all the old tapes that are going to be reactivated. You're going to get home and your parents or your mom or your brother, whoever the fuck it is, is going to push play on the shit tape that defined your childhood. Got to fight against that. Like I said, I don't want to get into it. Let's stick with food. What are you cooking? What do you got going? What's your job? Are you in control? Are you in charge? Are you the one making the thing? Are you making one thing? Are you making a few things? I thought it was important today that we're going to have Thanksgiving on Thursday,

that maybe we should have a little food talk. It'd be a nice idea to have a little food talk. What do you think? So on the show today, we're going to have a little food talk be a nice idea to have a little food talk what do you think so on the show today we're gonna have a little food talk and when it comes to uh bringing in someone to talk about food there are a few reasons why uh dan pashman was the best choice folks for one it's what he does now he's the host of wnyc's food podcast a sporkful and the author of the new book, Eat More Better, How to Make Every Bite More Delicious. But also, people, Dan has been getting in my face with his opinions about food and other things for more than a decade. All right. Dan worked with me on my old Air America gig on the Morning Sedition show. And we used to argue on the air about food all the time, all the time.

food all the time all the time in fact during this talk with pashman you'll hear one of those arguments that we had on morning sedition and listening back at it i think i need to start taking a little more credit for setting pashman on his current career path pashman is one of those guys with opinions about little things that you don't think you have opinions about but when somebody like pashman provokes you all of a sudden you do have an opinion about it and you'll defend that opinion even if you're halfway into that opinion you know and you realize you don't give a shit yeah have you had that happen where you lose steam mid-opinion yeah oh nothing worse than losing steam mid-opinion you just react to someone's bullshit and you're like oh yeah i got some bullshit to counter

that and then about midway through you're like wow this really is bullshit and i don't care one way or the other but i guess i gotta ride it out and take the hit or maybe he'll fucking buckle maybe he'll buckle yeah i used to be that guy i try not to i argue about only very specific things but dan will get my ire up. Dan Pashman. How are you, Dan? I'm doing great. How are you?

It's nice to see you. I think I should give some background to our relationship. Dan Pashman was, what was your title? I believe associate producer? Yeah, sure. A long time ago. When I first started doing radio in 2004 being totally green with no experience whatsoever uh dan pashman and and uh my business partner and

producer brendan mcdonald were uh two young guns radio producers at air america we were all working under a guy who had no experience whatsoever in radio i think that wasn't i think jonathan larson i think he was he was the producer but brendan was the only guy that had the radio experience or did you too i had a little bit of radio experience and you had a flat top i couldn't understand how you and brendan looked so fucking conservative like you were sporting the full-on haldeman you had the full like you had like it wasn't like a crew cut he had the classic flat top and i was like who the fuck is this guy yeah you were all shaggy you had the faux you were rocking the faux hawk back then

was i oh you had a faux hawk a little bit but anyway so we were there at all hours and all hours of the night i remember that was that moment i think that brendan when you came in you used to put together all the news stories for the day right and that first week you came in, you used to put together all the news stories for the day. Right. And that first week, you came in and dropped them on my desk. And I was like, I can't do this. How are we going to cover all this? Like, I had no idea that you weren't giving them to me to cover everything. That was the early system. I actually had to print out like 500 news articles, punch holes in them, put them in a binder,

and give them to you and the other hosts. And I can imagine that it would seem overwhelming. articles punch holes in them put them in a binder and give them to you and the other hosts and i yeah i can imagine that it would seem overwhelming but now uh years later you've uh you you followed my lead that's right i'm gonna say that you can say it uh you have a podcast called the sporkful which got popular that's right somehow yeah Somehow? Yeah. Miracle of miracles. By some miracle. And you had me on there early on and Rachel Maddow. And the angle was you're going to talk about eating food. That's right.

You have no real credentials. Well, I'm good at eating food. I know. That's it. You're not even like a food critic or anything. Nope. Well, we're doing this. It is Thanksgiving time. So I think that this is a good time to talk about this.

I mean, your book is called Eat More Better, How to Make Every Bite More Delicious. You're a guy. This is all you got, apparently. It's true, but the funny thing about it is that I honestly did start a podcast. I mean, you did have a lot to do with it directly and indirectly because part of the big reason why I started a podcast was that I worked on two radio shows in particular that I poured my heart and soul into, and they both got canceled. One of them was Morning Sedition.

The other was the Brian Park Project at NPR. And in both cases, know like it's a terrible feeling to work so hard on something and then feel like it's been taken away from you oh yeah it made me sad and so i figured if i have my own podcast at least i'm the only one who can cancel it well you know the funny thing is i think that here's the thing about you and we don't really have a problem because i understand who you are, and you understand who I am. Yeah. But you get committed to ideas about bullshit that were just unshakable.

Right now, I'm getting a little weird anger rush. Like thinking back about our argument about the black crows and the Rolling Stones. No, it was the black crows and the faces. Was it? Yes, and I have to say, I think I've come around to your point of view. The faces are better than the black crows and the rolling stones no the black crows and the faces i was it yes and i have to say i think i've come around to your point of view the faces are better than the black crow oh my god of course they are you dummy but but when we were younger when you were younger you're like i don't know why you old guys get hung up on these guys they just you're like they do it better i'm like what are you talking about but we'd argue for hours yeah and and would

it would be about almost anything you were just the kind of person that would like i would argue with you just because i could because you like it was ridiculous but i'm i'm gonna go ahead and take credit for inventing your entire uh oeuvre that's cool i'm gonna take credit for sending you into the world to argue about food because these are opinions and the i mean i think on some level you know you are telling people in the book how to really enjoy food and what goes into food and what goes into eating food but like let's play this clip uh from this is from october 2004 oh my goodness this is 10 years ago this and this is like before this was even a seed in your imagination we had a debate here in the studio important stuff going on here in the studio. Dan Pashman has a stance that I'm not sure I agree with, yet he will defend it.

We were discussing what we were going to have for breakfast, and the idea of the omelet came up, and then there was a cheese problem. He's got a cheese problem. He says that the place that we get our breakfast doesn't always have such good cheese. And this is a guy that says, I don't want a Philly cheesesteak sandwich if it has cheese was on it, which is the, this is the standard. So now, but here's the, it gets larger because we went with Dan Pashman to the Philly cheesesteak place, Pat's, and it was good, but he said, well, if that's all that city has to offer, then I'm not down with it. But then it became a bigger problem about bread. Well, this is something I feel very strongly about, Mark, and I am a bit of a sandwich connoisseur. I'll be honest with you. I've put a lot of study

and research and thought into the creation and manufacture of sandwiches. And I'm quite confident that you already have an inferior sandwich before you've taken a bite. If you have hot things on the inside with cold bread on the outside, if you're going to have hot eggs and cheese,

or a burger, or a hot dog, or anything, whatever you're doing, you've got to heat the bread if you have hot inside. Back up. This is crazy. You're talking crazy because you're denying the power of fresh bread. If you have a fresh roll, all right, that's really nice and fresh and soft, like a bulky roll as they call them in Boston or whatever they call them here. Kaiser.

A Kaiser roll, yeah. And you put the egg sandwich on that. Toasting a Kaiser roll that's really fresh, it's wrong. I think you're wrong here. I understand what you're saying and I will grant you that in a situation where you have a small amount of bread and a large amount of hot filling such as your corned beef example well that was an example the listeners didn't hear fresh rye bread let's say you go to the carnegie deli and you order a hot corned beef sandwich with switch cheese that that corned beef comes out of the

steam plate out of the steam table you slice it up hot you put You put the cheese on it. It melts itself. I understand. And then you put it on a fresh piece of rye bread. But if you're talking about one scrambled egg and one slice of cheese and a big fat bulky roll where your sandwich is like 80% bread, if that bread is not heated, then it's not a good sandwich. But no, no. The bulky roll squishes up like it gets all soft and it meets

the egg and cheese. It meets it. Do you understand? If you have a little toasted crust, because you grill a bulky roll, there's no saying it doesn't just turn hard and brown. Yeah. You know, I've been there, and it dries it out. It dries out the fresh roll. You can microwave it. It doesn't even have to be hot.

Oh, not microwave. No, no, no. You can't microwave anything. You call yourself a sandwich connoisseur, and you use the word microwave? What's up with you? I would not microwave. I would toast it. I'm saying if you want to maintain the squishiness, I agree. I would never microwave bread.

No, you can't microwave almost anything. There's nothing you should microwave unless you have to. That's exactly true. A microwave is an emergency situation because if you microwave anything, it just turns into hard crap. Something goes wrong with it. Microwaves screw with food on a molecular level. It ruins it. You guys come to my house.

I cook you a Dan Pashman patented grilled egg and cheese sandwich, and you will see the light. I promise you that. I'm sure it would be good, Dan Pashman patented grilled egg and cheese sandwich and you will see the light. I promise you that. I'm sure it would be good, Dan Pashman. But what I'm saying to you is you started this argument with this blanket statement that you cannot have hot stuff on a cold bread and you've made a concession. The only concession I'll give you is corned beef and that's because there's so much corned beef and so little bread that it will warm the bread while keeping it fresh. But that won't happen in most sandwich ratios. See how people naturally spin it's not just a republican thing you see what's happened

here what's changed dan not much i will say that both you and i talk slower now yeah well that was morning and i was on 900 cups of coffee and a handful of m&ms and complete mania and that other voice you heard was mark riley who was my co-host for a couple of years on the Morning Show. That's Mark Maron Morning Show energy. That's right. I wasn't going to give you an inch though. No, and you didn't.

But you know, the funny thing about listening to that is like when I first set out to do this work full, I was like, this seems like a fun idea. I think it's a different way to talk about food. It actually wasn't until after I started doing it that I was like, this is the role I was born to play. And then I started thinking back to the segments we did together and I was like, it was right in front of me all along. Right. Well, I think that being passionate about something and being excited about something and having opinions about food, I mean, there's very few arguments you're going to have about food in the world that you're running in,

where you're going to end a friendship or you're not going to talk to somebody for years. Do you share some of these provocative opinions in Eat More Better, your book? I sure do. In fact, I talk in particular about the Philly cheesesteak. There's a lot of opinions in the book. Let's go over some of them. Well, I talk in the language arts. It's a tongue-in-cheek textbook, the book, that would teach you to eat more better, to make every bite more delicious. So I talk in the Language Arts chapter about regional foods, like buffalo wings or Philly cheesesteak, and about what right does the region have to coin a new term for a food at events?

What right does it have to define what is and is not that food? And then what right do they have to modify it? So I will say, like, the cheese stakeries in Philadelphia have a right to say what is and is not a cheese steak. That's Gino's and Pat's. And then there's a couple other ones. Right. So they can say, like, for instance,

they have accepted the pizza steak with tomato sauce. They list it on their menus under cheese steak. So they've accepted that. But when tomato sauce, they listed on their menus under cheesesteak, so they've accepted that. But when John Kerry was running for president in 2004 and he went to Philly and he ordered a Philly cheesesteak with Swiss cheese, he was booed out of town. It cost him the election. But the fact is, do you agree, Mark,

that Swiss cheese, putting aside what is or is not a quote-unquote Philly cheesesteak, Swiss cheese on a steak sandwich could be very delicious. Fine, if you like Swiss. Look, you know, look, I mean, I'm not a huge Cheez Whiz fan if we're going to re-engage this argument. It's only been 10 years, Mark. But the thing is, like, you know, provolone's the other option. They're both good.

And I think what you're getting with regional food sometimes, especially with the cheesesteak, option. They're both good. And I think what you're getting with regional food sometimes, especially with the cheesesteak, is you're getting a history of that. Like both of those places have probably been using the same bakery for years. They're using those same griddles for years. They have the same amount of focus in what they're doing. Like there's other sandwiches in Philly that are very good, like the roast pork at John's or the roast pork at the Knicks. There's two different approaches to this, but what you're getting with those sort of essentially kind of homemade fast food is you're getting a legacy. There's a tradition there. And sometimes that tradition pays off and it maintains a consistency and it is special

because of the love that goes in it and the equipment that goes into it. It's seasoned equipment. And then other times it just becomes a racket. But I think what you're saying, like with the Buffalo wings look at buffalo wings is butter and frank's red hot and that's buffalo wings it's fried chicken wings dumped in uh frank's red hot sauce and and butter in some ratio and then served can they say that no one can do that well i don't know i've had pretty good buffalo wings a lot of different places i've had them in buffalo but now in buffalo you get these other places like, we don't just do Buffalo wings. We're doing a lot of kinds of wings.

But that's the question I have for you, Mark, is don't you think that, I don't disagree with anything you just said. You're right. Yes, there is a magic to these old school foods and the tradition and all that. I'm all for that. Yeah.

But don't you think sometimes that also stands in the way of progress? Like we're not going to make it to the moon? Well, like I've talked to some buffalo wing aficionados who say that the center of buffalo wing innovation is now in Syracuse and Rochester, upstate New York, because the people in Buffalo feel beholden to the traditional recipe because tourists come and they want it the old-fashioned way. And now there are more delicious wings that have been developed elsewhere. But they don't just want it the old-fashioned way. They want to go to that place, the anchor or whatever.

The anchor bar. Yeah, that's where they want to go. They want to get a picture. They want to sit there with the original. But these might be people that eat buffalo wings every week at their place. And they might be able to admit that the wings at their place is better or not. But they did go to the source. There's something about going to the source.

I don't think it stands in the way of progress. How? I'm telling you, I talked to a guy who did a whole documentary. He's from upstate New York, and he did a documentary about his search. He went across the whole wing belt of upstate New York. The wing belt? The wing belt. Is this in your book or on the show?

That was on the Sporkful, yeah. And he was the one who told me. He said, Buffalo's falling behind. Wow. Has he alerted the city? Yeah. Has he told the chairman of Wings that perhaps they have to sort of make a change? I mean, I think that Anchor Bar is probably too busy counting money to care.

Unfortunately, I think what hampers progress more than anything else is probably Guy Fieri. Because I think he's running out of places, and I'm not sure that all the places are exactly as great as he thinks they are. Right, but I would think that, well, maybe I'm wrong. I was going to say. Wow, that was quick. I didn't even have to do anything. You just lost the argument in your own head. You want to try it?

I was going to say that it may be his fans are the ones who are most likely to go to the Anchor Bar and take the photos and get the t-shirts. Well, I think that anything that encourages small businesses and people that do something interesting is good. And there's a lot of places that make one good thing. I'm sure the Anchor Bar's got other snacks. I didn't go to the Anchor Bar to get wings. I actually went to, like, the other place. And it was just a bar. And the wings were fine.

But, you know, I've had plenty of good wings in a lot of different places. I used to work at a place that made perfectly good wings. If you do the butter Frank's hot sauce thing, you're going to get a good wing. And you fry them good. You just dump them in the basket. You do them in the fry later. They come out cooked. And then right away, you shake off the oil and you throw it in the mixture of Frank's and butter.

And then drain it off. And you can't lose. Well, I actually would argue that it's better if you serve them with sauce on the side. What? You're not going to sauce the wings? They're not going to be dripping with franks and butter buffalo wings chicken wings are a member of the fried chicken family and you got to respect the crisp if you get your buffalo wings with the sauce on the side you can dip them into the sauce on a

per bite basis to sauce them while still maintaining wing crisp you know this is where this is where i got problems with you you you've decided that is this this in the book? There's a lot of wing-eating techniques in the book. There is? Yeah, like the wing with the two bones. Actually, Brendan McDonald's technique for wings is in the book. It is? Which is what? He eats... We're talking about the wing with the two parallel bones

and the meat in the middle. He eats all the way around the perimeter very delicately, using only his teeth so the spiciness doesn't get on his lips. And then he uses his tongue to poke out the meat in between the two bones and use that as a palate cleanser. He's afraid to burn his face. Right. Oh, a palate cleanser.

Look, you've decided in some like screwed up Pashman world that wings are a member of the fried chicken family. Fried chicken is battered. If chicken is fried, it's fried chicken. Maybe it's like a black sheep. No, it's not. It's a redheaded stepchild of the fried chicken family. The thing is, if you cook those wings long enough so they got a nice hard crust on them

and the oil is hot enough and you just hit them with that sauce right away, you'll get that texture. The texture of the buffalo wing is what it is you don't separate the idea it's like no it's it's about fried chicken and sauce no it's about buffalo wing the buffalo wing at its best is if it's fried properly and dipped in the sauce and you bite it that's what it's supposed to taste like you don't want that 10th wing to be crispy but that's not the problem the problem yeah sure you want to be crispy but then eat faster faster, do whatever you got to do. Get the food in your fucking face.

I mean, that is not because you're troubleshooting. This is not a principle you have. Oh, no, no. Crisp is a principle. I will defend crisp. I know, but okay, okay, fine. But let's say, think about those first four wings, hot, where you still get the crisp underneath the sauce that's dripping off of it, that hot, beautiful butter and Frank's hot sauce. And then like, okay, so you get to the ninth wing and you're like, gee, I wish they were separate now.

So apparently you don't mind cold wings. You dip a nice, cold, crispy wing in the sauce. So really what you're arguing is that when the sauce has a chance to seep into the wing a little bit, you lose crisp, but it unifies. It melds into a new thing that isn't quite the same when you apply the dip on a per-bite basis. Yes, it's a buffalo wing. It's a buffalo wing. I think that term just refers to the sauce. No.

I refuse to acknowledge that. So if you go to a wings place And you get wings with Barbecue sauce That's not buffalo wings It's not but if you get them with the sauce on the side Then what are they called Disaster It's called we don't know how to do this right

Right Ten years later Mark we still got it Yeah No because you dip it in the blue cheese dressing or the ranch dressing. But this guy, Matt Reynolds, who did this documentary, The Great Chicken Wing Hunt, that I'm referring to, when he went across the wing belt, he took out a team of wing aficionados. They traveled across the wing belt. And the wing that they picked, this is a spoiler alert for people who may want to watch this film, which I recommend. Go ahead.

The wing that they picked, the sauce had blue cheese dressing in the sauce, and they said it was amazing. I'm sure it's amazing. It's a matter of tradition and classic versus, I don't think anyone's stifling progress, but some people are going to be like, well, I'm a traditionalist.

Well, that's right, but this is the argument that I make in the book, which is if the people of Buffalo want to say that it's not a Buffalo wing unless it's served already sauced, they have a right to say that. But they don't have a right to say that separating the wing and the sauce would not make it better. Fine. It's not a Buffalo wing, though. But it's better. No, it's a matter of taste. You know, some people enjoy things that you don't enjoy, and it's their right.

And it doesn't mean you're wrong. Well, you know, as they say. It just means you have to adjust the way you see things. Right. No, I mean, look, there are matters of taste. And I always quote the Latin maxim, in matters of taste there can be no dispute. So I try to deal in my work in matters of

objective truth. But I think what we learned about you also is that in your youthful cockiness, that sometimes you don't have the depth necessary to really appreciate. Well, like we said, Mark, you taught me everything I know. I know. What other stuff am I going to learn in this book? Let's fight it out. What are some lines you draw in Eat More Better? Proximity effect. Anytime you take a bite of food, whatever's in closest proximity to your tongue, that flavor will be accentuated. So I recommend cheeseburger with cheese on the bottom.

Okay? And so that way the cheese is closer to your tongue. It accentuates cheesy goodness. Now, is this something you've worked? Do you do this? Oh, yeah. your tongue, it accentuates cheesy goodness. Now, is this something you've worked, do you do this?

Oh, yeah. When I do my book talk events all over the country, I bring Oreos, and I do a demonstration where you separate the Oreo, and you eat them frosted inside right on your tongue, and you can taste the difference. I mean, that seems like a good idea. It is. I'm a compulsive eater. Everything goes in very fast. Right.

There's not a lot of savoring. No, I know. I've seen that. I remember when we were working together at Air America the second time around. Yeah. The first time, we were so full of hope. but the second time we knew it was just, it was a paycheck, right? A little cynical.

Yeah. And I had the idea that I could maybe make the job last a little longer if I positioned myself as the guy at the office who was like rah, rah. I'm the team builder guy. I started the softball team. Yeah, yeah. And I organized a St. Patrick's Day party and I cooked a whole corned beef in a crock pot the whole day in the office so we could have a party

at 5 o'clock and all the executives were like oh Pashman's so great he gets everyone so excited hopefully this will get me like one more month of employment and so I brought in my cutting board and my nice knife and I took the corned beef out of the crock pot and I put it on the cutting board in the kitchen. Everyone was congregating in the conference room.

And so I sliced up the corned beef, and I had it beautifully arranged on this big wooden cutting board. And everyone's waiting in the conference room, which is like 100 feet away, except you. You were standing right next to me. Except you. Yeah. You were standing right next to me. And the second I stopped slicing the corned beef, you started just taking it with your hands. Yeah.

Off the cutting board. And you then, as I tried to run away from you so that there'd be enough corned beef left for other people, you jogged alongside me. Pulling corned beef off the cutting board with your hands. Well, you know that I have a diminishing buffet syndrome. I know. We've talked about this before. Yeah, yeah. That's an important thing to realize.

How do you combat that? You just sort of get in the present and realize, like, well, they're supposed to have food for a while. Maybe they'll make good on that. All right, buddy. Well, good luck with the book, Eat More Better, and as always, the Sporkful. Is that once a week? Sporkful podcast once a week. That's right.

Thanks, Dan. Thanks, buddy. Good seeing you. You too. Wasn't that pleasant? I don't know if it was pleasant. It was nice to see Dan. It was nice.

He's annoying in a very charming way. Julia Sweeney is a lovely woman and very funny. I was thrilled that she stopped by to talk to me. Her memoir was released earlier this year. It's called If It's Not One Thing, It's Your Mother. I love her. I love her. Let's talk to Julia. It's called, if it's not one thing, it's your mother. Uh, a lover. A lover. Let's talk to Julia.

It's winter and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs, mozzarella balls, and arancini balls? Yes, we deliver those. Moose? No. But moose head?

Yes. Because that's alcohol and we deliver that too. Along with your favorite restaurant food, groceries, and other everyday essentials. Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. Calgary is an opportunity-rich city, home to innovators, dreamers, disruptors, and problem solvers. The city's visionaries are turning heads around the globe across all sectors each and every

day. They embody Calgary's DNA. A city that's innovative, inclusive, and creative. And they're helping put Calgary and our innovation ecosystem on the map as a place where people come to solve some of the world's greatest challenges. Calgary's on the right path forward. Take a closer look at CalgaryEconomicDevelopment.com. Julia Sweeney. Julia Sweeney. Hello. I feel like we ran into each other sometimes. I know.

When? Do you remember? At clubs, I think. I did a little stand-up, kind of. I feel like I know you, kind of. Yeah, I remember seeing you at clubs. At things? At things. Where you'd come in and people would be like,

she's on SNL. She used to be on SNL. That's Julia Sweeney. She should be so much funnier. That's not true. No, I'm not trying to be self-deprecating. But it was, yeah, I feel like I was, and then I just love you. I just love you.

Well, you're so nice. I do, I do. Where do you live now? I live in a small town north of Chicago. I was just in Chicagoago yes i know and i did a big old show yeah and it was good what what town north i never go out otherwise i would definitely go if i was a person who ever left my house right isn't that weird we get to like i always wonder about that because i'm so thrilled that my fans come out because most of my fans are

they're not my age but they're not kids right so like i know that it's a big deal for them to come out it's a hard audience to get people well first i blame it on having a kid but the truth is i didn't go out even when i didn't have a kid i'm really having a kid like 50 of becoming a mother was having an excuse to never leave the house can't go out can't get a sitter i'm Oh, I so would be at your show. And there's probably a lot of shows to go to in Chicago of people you know. Oh, I know. It's true. Did you grow up there? No. Where'd you grow up? I grew up in Spokane, Washington. Oh, my God.

I think I knew that because I did some, my vague research. Oh. Spokane, Washington. Yeah, Spokane. And then I went to college in Seattle. And then I moved to L.A. That's so lucky to go. That's so beautiful up there. Do you care about it anymore? I know. Yes, Spokane. And then I went to college in Seattle. And then I moved to LA. That's so lucky to go. That's so beautiful up there. Do you care about it anymore? Yes. In fact, I just bought a cemetery plot for myself in Spokane. That's an uplifting way to start the show. Is it a nice plot? It is. It's with our family. It's other people in the family. And actually,

just this morning, I paid the final check on it. And so it's all ready to go. And I feel like I don't have to visit Spokane that much anymore because I'm going to spend a long time there that's that's my my post-retirement plan yeah exactly oh my god do I need to get one of those when do you get one of those I don't know because my husband and I have kept going back and forth about it yeah he doesn't care at all about that and would not even discuss it. And the only reason I did is because I've had a couple of siblings die and other family members. And they're in this area that we have visited, you know, in Spokane, the cemetery.

Like we work like a Mexican family where we go have a picnic at the cemetery with our relative. You did? Oh, yeah. But you're Catholic family. Irish Catholic. Yeah, but we just loved, we just had to stop by all the time. If we were on the north side, it's like we've got to, we'll pop in and say hello to Henrietta. Uh-huh.

Your grandparents? Yeah. And so it suddenly occurred to me that that's meaningful. Like that not everyone has that. Right. Like that's this meaningful thing. And then I had happened to talk to this woman who sells cemetery plots there. And she goes, you know, the spot right next to your two brothers is available.

And I was like, I'm in. I am so in. And then anyway, then I have two other siblings. So I was trying to get them to buy the spots next to me. And they were like, I don't want to be next to Aunt Barbara. Oh, really? Well, it was like, well, what if my husband and will my husband and I be together? And then my other sibling was like, well, but I don't want to be next to her husband.

Oh, because you got to buy more than you do. You have to buy. Well, no, you can have up to four. Actually, we could all go in one plot. Right. They've just upped it from two people to four people can be in one plot. Have they changed the distances? No, because people are cremated now.

Oh. So it used to be you couldn't be cremated if you were Catholic. Oh. But they changed the rules. So now it's just a heyday at the cemetery. Oh, really? Because you can pack a whole bunch of people in a plot. And it's cheaper to cremate, I guess.

Oh, yeah. Especially if you're not in town when you die transportation's easier right you just go on the plane you're just carry on yeah and it's so it's funny it's not morbid i think the catholics are pretty good at that i think there's a like the idea of having you know lunch at a cemetery whatever there's a comfort with death oh my god sort of i find that so true. It's a morbid religion. Actually, my daughter just said, because my husband's, they're Jewish atheists, basically, and proud third-generation Jewish atheists. And my daughter said to me recently, you know, dad's side of the family, they don't talk

about, they don't even believe in an afterlife. Right. They don't talk about people dying and that much. But your side of the family, they all believe in this afterlife, even though she knows I don't even believe in an afterlife. Right. But they don't talk about people dying and that much. But your side of the family, they all believe in this afterlife, even though she knows I don't. And yet, you know, you're totally comfortable talking about being dead and this person's going to be dead and soon we'll all be dead and soon we'll all be in the ground.

And I think that's a healthy, I like it. Well, I think however you can accept death. Yes. It's a good way to go. Yeah. Because that's the one thing we all don't want to confront or we want to deny. But I think you get to a certain age. I never really thought about it as, like, I always knew that I would die.

But when you get older, you're sort of like, well, it might be soon. Right. And am I doing everything I need to be doing? Okay, here's my new thing. Because I actually am really trying to think about death a lot. Why? I think it gives me this more palpable sensation with being alive. Like, just think about it.

To accept it and realize it and to live. Kind of contemplate death, you know, like just to have it. But anyway, my new thing isn't when I see babies anywhere. I think when that baby's my age, I won't be alive. Oh, that, yeah. Like that's this new, ooh, and it gives you a little tingle. Does it? Yeah, like wow.

Get a little bump from that? It's coming up. It's soon, I will not be around. Oh, but I don't like that. I don't know why that makes me feel calmer. How old are you? Do you talk about it? Yeah, I'm 54.

I'll be 55. Well, it's not kind of. It's that time of life though though doesn't it feel like puberty but of the later age yeah but with nothing to look forward to but oh come on it's isn't it so much better being older i don't know oh my god it's so much better every year is so much better i i think so because you you all this stuff you don't care exactly it fades oh my god yeah that's true. But why couldn't it go the other way? Why couldn't it start like that? Which it does, I guess, as a baby. But that middle period where everything's a panic and everything.

Yeah. But, I mean, you had cancer. Yeah. So you must have had these, you must have looked at it. No, I didn't think I would die. I had a, well, I was a believer then, for one thing. I believe that God was, I mean, not like a weird believer, but I had this sense of destiny about myself that was completely uninformed and wrong.

Was it Jesus-oriented? No, I was more, you know, I thought it was just an energy. You know, I had a kind of New Age slash Catholic thing. Yeah. Very vague, unspecific. But I just had this sense that i was going to survive well you were right i was right but i could have been wrong i guess but i mean sometimes i mean you don't believe in any spiritual mojo you don't believe in any like you maybe you just what does

that mean what just mean like you don't there's nothing mystical are you that practical about but i find just i know i'm gonna now i'm just gonna be so hateful because i'll say being alive right the second is mystical i mean like okay yeah but i don't think there's any um knowledgeable being or energy that knows anything about me or would care anything about me right but maybe you just had a sense. Maybe something inside of you knew that you weren't going to die. Well, it was an easy cancer. Oh. It was really like...

So it was actually a doctor that convinced you of that. No, no, right. It was cervical cancer, and it's like, I was going to survive. The doctor said, I've never had one person not survive this cancer. It wasn't nothing mystical about medicine, I guess. But people will say, well, you've confronted death. And I was like, oh, that was so not confronting death. But your brothers died.

Yeah, but he had lymphoma. And stage four. That's when they found it? Yeah. Oh, my God. Where was it? It was everywhere. It was everywhere.

And he had no idea? No, because he didn't have medical insurance. But there was no symptoms? Yeah, he had weird things. Like he would have a leg ache, like a headache, but a leg ache. And then he had a toothache, and then he went to the dentist, but they were like, your teeth are fine.

And that's a kind of icky cancer. And then he was, he didn't have insurance, so he was going to free clinics. Right. You know, it wasn't necessarily, although the free clinics can be great, but they weren't going to do all the tests to really find out. Oh, that's a sad thing. So by the time he found out it was really so you did confront death at least with him oh yeah yeah and then i had another brother die last summer two summers ago

of alcoholism and drug addiction cancer alcoholism drug addiction it's everywhere alcoholism's hard did you grow up with that yeah and who my who? My dad. Oh, really? Yeah. But it's kind of part of it when you're Irish Catholic, for many people. It definitely is part of it. And he remained alcoholic? Or, I mean, he never sobered up? No, he sobered up. He had, like, really, like, a nervous breakdown at one point. And then he went away to a mental hospital for a year, and so he was sober there.

How old were you? 26 or something like that. So you were out. Yeah. You had withstood the storm already. Yeah. Yeah. And then he was up and back on it.

Yeah. You know, like it was just, like it's just a whole thing of, it's just so tough. Oh, I know. I, you know, I'm sober myself, but it's just very interesting to me how, like, there is some offspring of alcoholics that become alcoholics and the other ones become very close friends of alcoholics. Right. Well, sometimes I think, I'm so lucky that my drug was food, actually.

Is that what it was? Because you can survive that. Yeah. I mean, like that doesn't. Right. Unless you really go crazy. Right. You really, that's a much more survivable stress reducing mechanism than alcohol drugs.

And that was your thing? Yeah, it is my thing. It still is? Yeah, for sure. I can feel it in my body like when i feel stressed out i want to eat and it does the job it absolutely my blood pressure goes down right i get focused like it absolutely does the job and i know that's the feeling my brother and dad had for example and what did that was alcohol yeah how old was your brother with the alcoholism uh he just two years ago let me see 52 oh god so he even had it bad huh yeah for years and years oh man just

like the teeth going and oh my god it was really sad and he was the loveliest most the brightest funniest oh god damn it yeah but did you end up like, yeah, I mean, how did it manifest itself in the house? Was it, was he just, like your old man, was he raging or was he just... No, that was the, my mom, they had an interesting dynamic. My mom would be raging

because he was drinking. Yeah. He became the nicest, most complimentary guy. So we all kind of were mad at my mom for being so mad at him. Right. You know, as an adult, I look back and think he was completely checked out. And like another kid, she was having to handle all this stuff. Right.

And that must have been crazy. And there were five kids. And there's five kids. But my dad was like, I went to a like teen, you know, children of alcoholics. Alateen. Yeah. And people were like, my dad beat me and my dad did this and i like my dad um recites james joyce to himself and tells you that he loves you so

because you're so smart and life is fleeting that was your that was his drunk. That was your war story. Yes. Right. So hard. So hard. Yes. What was he? You mean his profession? Yeah. He was a U.S. attorney, actually. So he was a... He was a functioning. Functioning alcoholic.

Functioning alcoholic. Yeah. Just at home and on weekends? Yeah. After work? Yeah. Who knows? I don't know what happened before trial and so forth.

What does a U.S. attorney do? What does that mean? Well, his specialty, there's all these Native Americans in Washington State on the east side of the state where I'm from who are on reservations. And whenever the government would find any piece of land there that was good, like a river, they would then go in and take it away from the Native Americans. And he was the main guy who knew how to take the land back. So he represented the Indians? No. He was on the government side saying,

oh, we made a mistake. The map was, it's really, this is the map. That's what this negotiation, he would negotiate with tribal leaders about why they can't live there anymore. And it was really sordid and terrible.

It was horrible. So he had to drink? No, he did. And then they, and then the reservation, that drinking. I mean, like, it's

just everywhere but it was i don't think he liked doing that part of it it seems like a hard gig i never understand how lawyers who do nefarious things how how they rationalize it well he it was really complicated the native american thing because then the tribal leaders would get the money and then how they would spend them. Like, right. Because it wasn't it was supposedly communally owned. This is pre-casino. Yes, it's pre-casino.

Yeah. And so it was really I don't even want to paint it that he was the bad guy, because in some ways he was the good guy because he could get this money that could establish certain things on the reservation that would help everyone instead of just these two chiefs who said they should get all the money. So that was his whole thing. Right. And that's what you grew up in. Yes.

And what did your other siblings end up doing? My mom was a housewife. Is she still around? Yeah. Oh, you wrote about her in the new book. Yeah. And my sister Meg moved to Japan. She went to law school and took out huge loans to go to law school.

And in the middle of her third year realized that her calling was to teach nursery school. And she had like $150,000 in law school loans. So she found out about this sort of indentured servant program where you could go to a place in Japan, live in like a dorm. You don't get paid for two years. All you do is teach English conversation all day. Yeah.

And they would pay your student loans off. Wow. So 27 years ago, whatever, she did that. For two years. For two years. Fell in love with Japan. Felt like she was really Japanese. Also, it was conveniently thousands of miles away from my parents.

Right. And she visits, but she's like now lived in japan longer than here and she speaks japanese fluently and oh wow she's married to see oceane oh really yeah that's interesting yeah so i've gone many times to visit her is japan great it's great when you have a sister who lives there who can right first of all you can just laugh at all this stuff together. Oh, my God. They are so into the rules. A lot of structure. A lot of structure. And also such nonverbal communication.

So much isn't even, it's not just that you don't know Japanese. You have to learn this whole other very. It's interesting. Do you find it interesting that the daughter of an alcoholic would go and seek such a controlled environment? No. It makes perfect sense. Yeah. No, no.

She feels very safe and everything there yeah that's like that's amazing that she went that way with her control freakness yeah it's true yeah it is and now um and she's doing great actually she's really happy she's she's in a good place great what's the other one and the other one um he lives in seattle he's married with twins that are just a year younger than my daughter, so 13. And he works for this. He does an internet, something I don't understand, but he's very, very successful. Great. Yes.

So everyone's good. Yeah. So, all right. So you're going to your Spokane, Washington. You go to high school. You go to college in Seattle. Yeah. I become an accountant.

You did not. Yes. Oh, my God. Another controlling profession. I know it wasn't for me ultimately. I could see I'm, I'm, I'm projecting because like, I always think it's, it's wild to me. What I was going to say is that the children of alcoholics either become alcoholics and drug addicts or control freaks. Oh really? Well, yeah. I wonder if I'm a control freak. I don't think you don't feel like one.

Well, no, because usually it's because you're in this position with a grown person that's completely out of control all the time. Right. So you're constantly, you can't do anything about this primary situation in your life. So when you get out of that,

you're like, I'm going to keep it tight. You know what I mean? There's a reaction. I have a lot of friends whose parents drank that don't drink at all and i actually like to drink i drink i mean i don't i don't have a problem with it right i like it and i i find that unusual it's like usually no drinking or have a problem with it well you're lucky you're you're i was lucky that way yeah so how long were you an accountant I was lucky that way. Yeah. So how long were you an accountant?

Five years. Really? Yeah. After college? Yeah. So you didn't come down to LA? No, I moved to LA to be an accountant. That's how I came here. I was like, I'm going to take this city by storm to be an accountant.

No, are you serious? Yes. Were you a show business accountant? Yes, I worked at Columbia Pictures in the participation accounting department. With no desire to be in show business. Well, I had been in a play in high school. Which one? Romeo and Juliet, where I played the nurse.

And I had flirted with that idea because I had a sort of theatrical personality. It was interesting. But I didn't feel I was pretty. I still had that crazy thing that so many people still have. In order to be an actor, you have to be gorgeous. And it's like, just look at the television. There's lots and lots of parts for lots and lots of people. But to me, I just, I didn't think, I felt like you had to be beautiful.

Like, people would tell you, you know, like how they tell beautiful young women, you should be an actor. People weren't saying that to me. But I wasn't, but I have to say, it wasn't like I had to be an actor. It was like, oh, that's interesting. And then, Well, why LA then? Because I love film.

I had a degree in film. I got a degree in economics and in film. Like you minored in film. Minored in film, really. Yeah, film studies. Yeah, and like, I love the movies.

And I moved here thinking, this town, we're going to talk about film all the time. That's all people talk about. Yeah. Right. And then I got to the accounting department,

and it was really just an industry town. I'd be going up going, there's an Anthony Mann series at LACMA. We should all get all the other accountants together to go. And they're like... Yeah, let's go see the bicycle thief. Right. I was really surprised that everyone here

wasn't just really into the history of film. Nobody. Just another industry town. So then I started going to... surprised that everyone here wasn't just really into the history of film nobody just another industry town so then i started going to back then you know this is so back then um i was at all like the vista and the like i started seeing people and i made friends at the revival houses yeah the revival houses so i would sit in the first five rows and i made all these friends who were in who were really interested in film film Film nerds. Yeah, film nerds. That was my first group. Uh-huh.

Were they like mostly heavy set men who? I was really popular. I was like, oh, this is great. People showing you their magazines and signed. They're like, there was a lost reel of intolerance. I've got Sean Super. I just didn't want to know if you want to come over. And then I read a review of the Groundling Theater, and I signed up for classes.

And then Phil Hartman was one of my teachers. Just for fun? Well, yeah. You were an accountant. You're like, this sounds fun. Yeah. It said in the ad, we teach classes for non-professionals. And if it had not said non-professional actors, I would never have gone to the grant.

Oh, really? I thought, oh, it's like, you know how lawyers need to learn improv. Sure. Well, I think a lot of people do that for people skills. Yeah. Yeah. So I went, and it just blew my mind. It completely, my head exploded.

Like why? I knew that it was for me like this was what i was just right when you got there what was it about yes it was so and i by the way i wasn't good yeah it was not it wasn't about being good in fact i flunked the first level you did um but i just knew it was like doing cocaine or something it was like in fact i was just telling my husband recently that in my first class i three times out of the 12 classes, I parked and couldn't get out of my car to go into the class because it was so powerful to me what was happening in that class. Getting up and making up characters and saying what came to your, in your head. Really?

You were just overwhelmed? It was too much. Like, that was too big. Really? It was too big. Like, what was that big like what what was that feeling like it was just like you just you couldn't get just so high from it and laughing so hard and getting to laugh with other people and making something together that was funny together

oh my god what did you not have friends during childhood i don't know i don't know it was just really amazing that there was stuff you could learn. Like, you know, in improv, there's rules. So Phil Hartman was your first teacher? No, he was my second. Who was your first teacher? I repeat, Randy Bennett. Uh-huh.

And he was a teacher there at the Grammys. And then Phil Hartman was my next teacher. And then we became good friends. And then he got on SNL a few years later. And then he. But who else was there? Let's go through the. Kathy Griffin

was probably my closest person there uh-huh and you were friends yeah Lisa Kudrow uh-huh and this is when but this is in your class not when you how did it how does it work again you did well you do classes for a couple years and you work your way up and then you get into the Sunday company and then you get into the main company from that how long did it take you to get to the main company like not that long I actually went take you to get to the main company? Like, not that long. I actually went pretty quick. It was like a couple years of classes in like a year. And then I was in the main company only briefly and got on SNL.

You were like one of the lucky ones. Really lucky. In fact, it was sort of between Kathy Griffin, Lisa Kudrow, and me. And when I got it, I thought, I just hope those two girls have careers. They did all right. Because they deserve it. Because obviously I launched into this super career and I hope they do okay. They did all right.

So anyway, of course, they've done huge. So you're learning with Phil Hartman, who's a sweet guy. Really sweet. And who else is in your class? Is there anyone else I would know? Well, that was the other great thing about the Groundlings is that I understood how show business worked. Because everyone there didn't just become an actor. Like some people went in.

There was a lot of people doing puppetry stuff. Like who went with the Muppets. There was that connection. Some people started writing and producing commercials. Oh, so you learned that there. Well, I didn't learn those things, but I made connections with people who did many, many things in show business. And they were using the groundlings as-

Yeah, and so you were kind of- You learn how to- Yeah, you learn, like I was like, oh, I see how this business works. Like you kind of learn how to do a whole bunch of things and then you see which things are popping up for you. Yeah, how do you apply your talent? Right, and then of course it's 90% luck too, so.

It is, yeah, 90% luck, too. It is. But smarter, talented people who go a little below the radar, they seem to have longevity that people that go in front of the camera don't necessarily have. If you want to get into commercials or producing commercials or perhaps puppetry or perhaps writing. Or writing on shows. A lot of writers for sitcoms came out of there. Yeah. They're the smart ones yeah those of us who are like i want to be on front of the i want to be on stage that's where

it gets hard it is hard i feel like i've had a good mix of all the things well yeah and you've you know leveled off with all this you know you i think you really did something uh comfortable with your career and you stay doing you know know what I mean? Like, as opposed to just beat your head against the wall, trying to get cast out here, you know? Well, when I look back on it now that I'm an oolager, I wish I had been more tenacious and ambitious, actually, about my, like in some ways I was. I definitely had fantasies of being successful,

but I didn't have the work skills that I wish I had to really back it up. You know, like, if I would have given myself a note, I'd go, work harder. Yeah, but would you do that anyways? I mean, do you do that about everything? Yeah. So it doesn't really apply then. And plus, it's a waste of time. That's just your form of self-loathing.

Is that you're not doing enough. Yeah, maybe. Maybe. I'm sorry. I could see that. Well, I mean, I have that too. I always think that I'm just a little more disciplined away. Right.

From what? I don't know. From that guy's career? Right. If I'd done this, or what happened the the other way it it's just a bad it's a faulty wire that's the icky that's the one i would say icky thing about getting older is ruminating the the opportunity to ruminate over such a vast amount of time over what you might have done and, and that is definitely not good about getting older. Well, I've tried to, like that's, I've been very sort of kind of vigilant about not doing that, about not having regrets and having acceptance of what happened and why it happened.

I know that's big. It's hard. That is a real talent. Well, I was fortunate in that, you know, nothing happened for me until I was in my 40s. Really? You know, like I didn't really start making a living until I came out here in the garage. So, because it happened so late. That's so funny, because I guess in show business, you never know how people really are in their

living. No, just because they're on TV. And like, to me, because you were such a well-respected comic, and because I liked you, I just assumed you. I'm fine. Yeah, like, I didn't really know how people were doing it. Never selling tickets. Took a long time.

But I think because my real success, or like I sort of landed in my groove in my late 40s, it's a lot easier for me to kind of look at my life as like, well, I guess it was all leading here. Not like, you know, it's about fucking time. Yeah, I don't have that. You know, after all those missed opportunities. Because when you're older, you know so many people who are so talented and worked really hard and they didn't do well. And that is just the way it goes.

That's the most hard. That's evolution. That is the saddest thing, man. But I was going to say, I recently did the uncap. Actually, I'm saying recently. I think it was like a year ago. actually I'm saying recently I think it was like a year ago somebody else was on the show who came up and said this thing that kind of fucked me up for like six months where he's like what I remember before you got on SNL or maybe it was just as I don't know whatever he said he was

like I was working for a development and you are going to be the next big thing I mean you were everyone was running around at CBS saying you you are going to star in it. And you, and wow. And what, where are you living now? And I was like, oh my God. And then first I was like, is that really true? And then I thought it might've been for 10 minutes, but even like, it was really, it took me so long to process that conversation.

Horrible. Horrible. Horrible. The worst. Horrible. Yeah. You could have had this long career on television as this lovable person who was in syndication. Everybody said so. Yeah.

I've had that happen once or twice. Not to that degree. But we thought you were going to. I'm like, no, it wasn't. Apparently. Right. That wasn't the right that wasn't the way it went and then now i live in this town where people know me from snl if they know me a

lot of people i thought no one would know me i really thought i was past that time like i had reached never not when you create the a character that that was such a national phenomenon like i was thinking about before you came over i I'm like, there was a period there where people were dressing up for Halloween as Pat. Oh, yeah. I think it probably might still happen. Todd Rundgren and his whole band dressed up as Pat for Halloween

and sent me a picture of them. Like that was big. Yeah, it was huge. But I didn't, I felt like I didn't look like Pat. My joke is that now I've grown into looking like Pat. I didn't realize I was dressing up as myself in the future this is a nightmare was was that character was that something you created the groundlings yeah it was yeah see i'm fascinated by that whole thing how many how people show up

with their characters so yeah so okay so you're in the groundlings you do the classes for two years you're in the sunday crew right and then you're in the Groundlings. You do the classes for two years. You're in the Sunday crew. Right. And then you're in the main crew. So that's about four years in. Yep. And you're already, what, 30 almost? I was just, and I had to lie because they were looking for women under 30 and men up to age like 45.

It was completely blatantly horrendous. Yeah, yeah. And I was just turning 30 and I lied by one year about my age, which was so ridiculous. I should have like, if you're going to lie about your age, just go for it. Take a few off. But I said, I'm 28 instead of 29 or whatever. Yeah. So that I would seem like not close to the edge.

And yeah, so I was about that age because I had done the accounting and I did the other thing. And how did the audition happen? counting right and i did the other thing and and how what was how the audition happened um well there was like a year of increasingly more important person coming from the snl world to see us uh-huh where i my name was still in a group of names they were looking at right so and then that went on for so long it just seemed like that was going to be the rest of my life like there were so many incrementally more important persons before you got to Lorne Michaels that it would be a lifetime of doing crowning shows before you would ever get the chance to audition.

To meet the wizard. And then he came to the show. What year? With Alice, his then assistant secretary, who then became his wife. This is 89, I guess.

Yeah. And it was Kathy Griffin and Lisa Kudrow and other, you know, they came to the show and then they had me fly to New York and do. Well, then it was kind of like, we've picked you. But there's still a final hurdle. You got to go in the studio, right? Which is go do your sketches

for the cast and writers of SNL in a room. I've never heard that one. Yes. So you were cast or no? Well, it was like they were negotiating a deal, but it wasn't for sure that I was getting it till I did this final audition. So who was there? It was me and my ex-husband who was in the Groundlings at the time.

So we had some sketches we did together. Who was your ex-husband? Steve Hibbert. Oh, right. Yeah. I remember that guy. Yeah. I Steve Hibbert. Oh, right. Yeah. I remember that guy. Yeah. I didn't know you were married to him.

Yeah. You were married to him before you did the Groundlings? No. I married him while I was at the Groundlings. Oh, yeah. Why do I know him? He was in things. He was the gimp in Pulp Fiction.

It's probably his most famous thing. Yes. I've met him before. How long were you married to him? Just a few years. This is not your favorite thing to talk about? No, I don't even want to bring this up. Let's go out of that time.

Why was it such a bad time? No, no, it wasn't even bad. We're still friends. We still text each other occasionally. Why the shame? No, because I just... You know what's so funny? It's like I don't know why that is.

I don't know why that is. Because I'm open about it, obviously. But it feels like it didn't work. That's a bad mark on your... Resume? On your marriage resume? Yeah, my marriage resume. It's not of A+.

You never saw yourself as a divorced person? No, you got like a D+. Oh, so what? mark on your resume on your marriage yeah like yeah my marriage resume it's not of a plus you never saw yourself as a divorced person like a d plus oh so what i know exactly i agree with that why do i feel that way that's catholic yeah should have stuck in there forever but anyway he came with me and um and it was it was he was like very supportive and like i did a lot of stuff alone and then i did a couple sketches with him you showcase characters yeah then I come out as a character oh my god what were the characters thank god I was so oblivious to really everything because we were in it you were like you were doing characters I remember Dennis Miller was really nice to me and then Phil was there of course he was nice to me and John Lovitz was had just left but he was around so they they were supportive so did you

do Pat yeah and I did Pat. But Pat wasn't my big character, though. I did this other character called Mia Culpa, and she was really making fun of my inner me, and it was just apologizing for everything, like hitting something. I'm sorry. It's like, that's broad, but whatever.

Another uncomfortable character. Right, but that was my character. That's what I thought was my linchpin character. And then Pat, because Pat wasn't very developed. Like, it wasn't, like, Mia, I had a whole history for her. Like, that was, like, my character that I understood. And Pat was really more of a joke. You know, like, it was a few jokes.

I mean, I developed something for Pat later, but at the time that I auditioned, it wasn't. So you did Mia Culpa, kind of Pat. I did a character probably like my mom. Uh-huh. I mean, I developed something for Pat later, but at the time that I auditioned, it wasn't. So you did Mia Culpa, kind of Pat. I did a character probably like my mom. Uh-huh. Well, how's she? Well, she, I mean, now it's me. But I think it's interesting because Mia Culpa and Pat, this sort of like, you know, very diplomatic, kind of apologetic. Yeah, Mia's just, Mia talked like that and she was just, I'm so sorry.

Oh, I'm sorry. Do you want water? I'm just, I'm so sorry. Oh, I'm sorry. Do you want water? I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm saying I'm sorry so much. I hate that. I'm so sorry. I'm sorry.

I'm sorry. So that was that character. Is that in you, though? Oh, yeah. Oh, my God. It drives my husband crazy. I can't tell you. Once, you know, every couple of weeks, he'll look at me and say, will you please stop apologizing?

It's driving me mad. Oh, that's interesting. And it's so in me. But it's not's not your mom no my mom is actually no apologies right so but then my mom is more like um she's like midwest you know like although it's from spokane my mom is sort of the demanding was she angry well you said she used to yell at your daddy a lot? Yeah, but she's more, I'm so happy to be here. I need you to get me three things. A Diet Coke with a straw that bends and a bobby pin and a safety pin with a pink thing at the top. If you could quickly go get those three things.

And also, I'm starving, but I'm not eating any protein right now so she's happy to be there but she's got a lot of demands right alright so you go with these characters and Dennis is there and Phil is there everybody's watching yes and what was your experience with Lauren so complicated

because you know the thing is I really still love it I still have approval dreams of him. Oh, powerful. And I wake up and I'm so upset about it. Like, I'm so mad at my subconscious. Yeah, so like. You know, like, where he's like, yes, that was a good, you know.

Yeah. Whatever I. Well, okay, but, okay, so you go do the thing for. You go do the thing, the audition for everybody. He was really nice to me. He was there. Yeah, he was there. Yeah.

He's really nice yeah and then who told you you got the job i think it was my agent uh-huh and so you but he said i think he probably said something cryptic like we'll have you i believe there'll be many thanksgiving shows you know like he said something that was like i would be there right but not and then i remember when i got there he gave me a gift of water glasses like these really expensive water glasses and it was like these will last you at least for the 10 years ahead that you will be on the show like it was so like really great yeah really great yeah and then yeah then i just seemed to disappoint him at every. Really? Well, no, I don't know.

I don't know. Well, how is it like tricky? So like you started doing, you were on, you were doing big parts right away, right? Right away. I had the most incredible. Like my first show out of the gate, I had big scenes, characters, everything. Yeah. And then I haven't figured out exactly what happened i feel like it didn't get

bad but i i left before my contract was up on on your own volition my own volition which i think was like not what they didn't like that but i wasn't in one whole year i was not the comedic driving force of one single sketch in an entire year so you're just you were put on the bench yes I was benched and you're living in New York did you like that I loved it yeah I love New York and did you like at that time where so I imagine being someone who is you know a little hard on their self you know being benched for a year that was real oh my god I cried so much I cried cried cried cried cried and what the writers weren't writing you in how does it work well i was when i got on the show there's this woman christine zander who is there who's a writer from second city fantastic woman she's written on a whole bunch of shows we immediately became best friends

we wrote every single sketch together and then she left and I, even though I was still cast in lots of things other people did, when she left, I just, there was just, it was almost like they felt like we were a team, and then why was I still there? Right. You know, like everything seemed to dry up. And then also there was a lot of young men who were really, like, on the show. Yeah.

That were, like, and some I like, like David Spade and a lot of them. They all came when you were there. But they didn't cast me. Right. Well, actually, David Spade, I have to say, wrote a couple things specifically for me that he wasn't even in. Like, the greatest thing you could do for somebody. Yeah. That were really funny.

But, like, they would. Adam and Norm. I would only be at the. I didn't. Norm. Yeah. And yeah and to me i was first of all i was a little older than them not that much but to them five years older and not being you know their idea of hot probably made me like 30 years older so like i couldn't get cast in anything unless i remember even though i like adamler, but I remember moments where they go, well, all I can think of how to use you as the example of the unattractive choice.

Oh, no. I know. And I go. That was said out loud? Yeah. You know, hard, really tough. And when I look back on it, I think I couldn't have, it was more than I needed. I wish I'd been tougher.

I wish I'd been like, fuck you, and just written my own stuff and pushed it through. But instead I was like, I have to go lick my wounds for five hours now. Really hard. Yeah, yeah. So that's that thing you were talking about in terms of looking back, you you wish you had been a little more not ambitious, but just sort of like confident. Yeah. Like, I just think, you know, you're not worse than any of these other people. Did you feel like it was it did it become a boys club? I mean, kind of. Is that what it really was? It was then. I mean, and then it was like the heyday of the women came after.

Right. I mean, many then it was like the heyday of the women came after. Right. I mean, many years after. Because. I mean, several years after. Because like Adam and David and like the guys who were writing for them. And it was very sophomoric humor. And I don't say sophomoric in a negative way. Right. Like Adam Sandler's songs made me laugh really hard.

Right. In fact, they're probably, Adam Sandler made me laugh harder than anyone on SNL just goofing around backstage making crank calls and stuff. Uh-huh. But it was really not, I can't think, my humor doesn't come out of that. Right, sure. And I can't, I don't know how to mesh with it. Right.

And I actually don't even like it. Right. Like, I wouldn't go to see it. Right, yeah. Like, at a theater. Yeah, yeah. I wouldn't, and so it was so wrong for me it was just i couldn't so yeah the whole tone of the show changed and when you lost your one ally

and that but this is the question is that lauren just lets this happen well you know i feel like he's managing an ecosystem where he's letting things die. And sometimes I think he probably looked at me like a flower that had bloomed and now was no longer blooming. He just sort of like, he doesn't really step in if the dominating force is successful comedically. Right. And people are taking initiative. He's like, okay, that's what's happening now. Yeah, and actually, who's to say that's not the right way to be to survive

for that show i mean and maybe i had stopped blooming like also like i wasn't thinking of sketches anymore in relation to that show like i wasn't like for years i was like oh this would be a funny bit or that'd be a funny bit and and then i just was thinking of bigger deeper things like i wasn't thinking that way anymore. You were getting older. I was getting older. You were a grown up. Yeah.

And there were other issues at hand. I mean, now I'm feeling like I'm making this sound like I got so mature. And I don't even feel that. But there's no reason to be ashamed of that. I don't know. I don't know. I know. I'm telling you.

It's okay to outgrow SNL. Yeah. But you know what I didn't know i know i'm telling you it's okay to outgrow snl i mean yeah but you know what i didn't know i didn't know that that kind of excitement of being on that show and having this sense of being at the center of the universe with these huge stars coming in that you get to work with intimately for a week yeah i really thought even in my middling level of ambition it was just going to keep being like that in some different forms. Right. And it really wasn't. Right.

It was really over. Like that part of that excitement, that feeling of walking out on a live show with that many people watching and that much on the line and nailing it or almost nailing it. That kind of high, getting those skills, rewriting stuff at the last minute, reading off the cue cards because you don't even know what's been written. Yeah. That I thought was going to continue on in these other more deeper, more artistic forms. Right. And in some ways they did, but it was never that exciting. I mean, nothing was as exciting as that. I mean, that was just-

As Showtime at SNL. Yeah. Yeah. And so I feel like that's something then you have to it's almost i always think it's like being in a war like post-traumatic stress syndrome yeah but in a like the camaraderie of war like in the positive way like we were in the battle we got out there this guy did this i did that yeah and then you spend the rest of your life going my life's so much happier now but nothing was more exciting than those battles.

No, right. Adjusting to real life. Right. Yeah. So when you were benched, it must have just been heartbreaking. Oh, my God. And you had to get out of there. Yes.

Because you didn't want to be the crying person. Oh, I know. And I cried so much. God damn it. I wish I... I'm just mad at myself. Like, what? Stop crying.

Oh, give yourself a break, Julia. Okay. Come on. Enough already. I was like, oh, my sketches went cut again. Like, when I think of that, I just want to slap myself. But anyway. But, you know, you had felt that high.

You'd been to the front. Yeah. I know, but I mean, it's hard to have that perspective when the front is still happening, but you're not in the forces in the front of the front. Well, that must have been the life struggle then. Well, I mean, I'm not trying to paint too big a picture about it. I came back and did a lot of things that I loved and had a lot of fun. Right.

You're not completely martyring yourself. Right. And I did a lot of much more satisfying artistic things. What were those years like right after? I mean, so you quit. Well, then I got cancer. My brother got cancer. So that kind of took... Reality stepped in in the worst way possible this is what

happened i left snl yeah it's pat was opening which it's not like i thought it would be a huge hit but i had no idea it was going to be like a zero percent rotten tomatoes rating yeah the example of the lowest rated film of all time so you get hit when you're down the movie opens i was in seattle on opening weekend and an entertainment weekly was there i opened it up and the centerfold was like a picture of its pat saying bomb of the year like just okay and then and now i might be mixing up but in within a month, let's say, these things happen. And my brother calls and he's been diagnosed with cancer and has no insurance. And then I get cancer. So that was a bad leaving SNL year.

That was not a good year. Horrendous. So once you dealt with the cancer and once you dealt with your brother, and then you dealt with the sort of bottoming out of your career. I mean, where did you get the fortitude to start? Well, it was because of the un-cab. Because of the un-cab. Because you were still living here.

I was living here. And Kathy Griffin was doing this thing called Hot Cup of Talk at the Groundlings. Right. Where it was kind of like an un-cab thing. I never saw myself as a stand-up. I never thought I could. Well, actually, I did take a class in stand-up. A class where they taught you as a stand-up. I never thought I could. Well, actually, I did take a class in stand-up, a class where they taught you to do stand-up. And it was just

terrible. It was terrible. Okay, so I wasn't doing stand-up, and I just didn't want to do stand-up. And then Kathy Griffin said, come do this thing, and come to the Uncab, and just tell these stories, because I was dealing with my cancer, my brother had cancer. But were you just, were you, how were you dealing with it? my brother had cancer but were you just were you how were you dealing with it i mean was she saying that because because i had a lot of funny because my parents moved in with me yeah to help my my brother moved in with me with the cancer who has the cancer then my parents would moved in with me to help take care of my brother who my brother didn't want to talk to my parents or have them around and then we're all in my tiny little house and i'm driving

my mom my mom has to feel like she's taking care of him so a lot of it was arranging for my mom to have the feeling that she was doing a lot of stuff and then my brother with his shit and having cancer and terrible so you're just telling kathy this as a friend and she's like you gotta no she's like like and so i remember telling her something like the way i did a bit about how my mom gets on an elevator like she's surprised the tech like oh the elevator's here oh oh and i and i was like you know my mom and dustin hoffman were born on the same day do you think that dustin hoff oh, oh, the elevator is here. We pushed a button and it came.

Like that? Yeah. So she was like, you got it. Because I just had to vent about my parents. Right. So Sunday night at the uncap just became this venting thing. So I spent a year. Then I got cancer.

So I was able to talk about that. And then at the end of the year, I thought, well, I'll put like 40 minutes of this material together to kind of remind people to cast me in something. So I kind of set up like a thing at the ground. You weren't getting any gigs? Well, I just,

I told everybody not to do anything. Right. Because I was dealing with so much. And also I was sick and, you know, I had all my radiation and surgeries

and stuff like that. And so I was like, here I am back. And then I did a thing at the groundlings and a lot of people were saying you should do this as a one-person show like forget about trying to get cast on something just do this show so that's how I did God Said Ha and then I did it on Broadway and

then there was the film and then successful and it was very successful yeah that's so that was god I'd never do it now no you wouldn't no why wasn't it what did you find it as exciting you know no it was totally exciting yeah but you did a couple right yeah and then i did letting go of god that was actually the most artistically satisfying thing why is that how is it different because it was about something i cared about more that was a harder topic and a little abstract and more emotional. Yeah, and it took more writing skills to pull it off. Because it wasn't character-driven necessarily, and you weren't talking about your parents. It wasn't catastrophe. It was really like, what is the philosophy of my life?

But entertaining. But was there a moment where you realized God stopped functioning? No, but there was a moment when i realized that i didn't believe in god anymore yeah how was that moment it was dizzy i felt dizzy i actually felt physically dizzy like i might fall down really yeah and that's because you were brought up pretty strict catholic no and like a typical we had a sense of humor about the religion like i don't always people always want to say you were so religious then you weren't it's like no i was sort of quasi religious but you took it for granted that god was there yes yeah and i'd had all these experiences where i felt like

you know some someone was looking out for me and it was going to be okay and all this kind of stuff yeah and then i realized that no nobody, nobody's looking out for me. He left. He left. He never even was. You had just made him up. So there was a real, like a seismic shift. Oh, yeah.

Huge. Changed my life in the biggest way of anything. But horrifying at first. I wouldn't say horrifying. It was just very destabilizing. Well, what was the adjustment you had to make? Accept things as they were? Yeah, I became mortal.

It meant that I could get run over by a car this afternoon, and that's it. But of course, with that, it came all this beauty, because the fragility of life is what gives it its poignancy and its immediacy so i got so much with it it's almost like i i wasn't taking valium anymore right so life was as horrible and as beautiful as it is right right without the weird kind of uh there's something selfish about that type of relationship with God. Oh, my God. It's so narcissistic. And it's so hard now to even talk to people about it.

It was just like... I tried... Because I don't like feeling condescending towards people, so I tried to just get out of it. What? In terms of... When they start talking like that, I just think that's their coping mechanism. And I don't want to get into it with them. Right.

Let them have it. Yeah, let them have it. Yeah. I think it's a big drug that I think is ultimately unhelpful, although quite helpful in an emergency. Or in periods of weakness or challenge, maybe. Yeah. No, I think it was. I think it was. Yeah. So you're okay with it. So do you call yourself an atheist? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're one of them?

I'm one of them. Uh-huh. Do you talk to others gleefully? Well, I mean, I'm not trying to convert anyone. No. Well, I mean, the tolerance of people's faith is a tricky thing for atheists. It is, because there's such a dark side that most people don't see. They just think of the positive. The history of it.

Well, not just the history, but people are so uninformed about it. It's really just incredible. because there's such a dark side that most people don't see. They just think of the positive. Well, not just the history, but like, just people are so uninformed about it. It's really just incorrect. About faith? Yeah, and how religion, the insidious way organized religion works in our society, and even how anesthetized people are from reality, from even their new agey friggin' beliefs.

It just drives me, it's just, I have no tolerance for it. But I also don't want to get in arguments about it. Like I know it's for me. I'm not trying to tell them to do anything. But that's one of the definitions of tolerance. Right. Is I'm not going to. I will respect my desire

not to just rail you for your ridiculous beliefs. Right. Doing you a favor. Lending you you off the hook i don't need to do that to you yeah but also i've always thought like do but would would it be relieving to talk someone out of god no because it's so multifaceted in ways that i don't think they understand i think the people who really believe in god don't know all the ways that belief works. Yeah. And I think you have to really,

and I know this sounds like I'm inflating my own self, but I feel like you have to be a very strong person to go there in all the ways, all the surprising ways it manifests itself. Well, there's like, there, there's interesting things about the, about acceptance,

forgiveness, and the nature of faith that it does run pretty deep. I mean, to really forgive and to really accept is some tough shit. Yeah, yeah. It is hard. Even though I think those words, like the whole forgiveness thing, I think is so overplayed. I don't know if it is. Did you see that Philomena movie?omena movie no with uh judy oh no i haven't but i have it you see but i haven't seen it there's a moment in there where she plays forgiveness you know to someone who oppressed her right where she you know and i i can if it's spoiling whatever no no i know i know what the

movie's about but that moment where where she plays the fact that she forgave the woman that basically denied her a life. Right. The way she played it, where you could feel, you know. Does the person want forgiveness? No. But in order for this person to live a functional life, to not. But why do you have to say forgiveness? Why can't you just say, I'm letting it go?

That's fine. I accept it. But I feel like the whole forgiveness, like why should someone forgive something for that? Like they shouldn't be forgiven for that. It doesn't mean you have to do anything about it. You don't have to think about it even. No, but I mean the nature of forgiveness isn't it about, you know, dealing, because it comes from anger. I mean letting go of anger is one thing.

But to let go of anger without some kind of forgiveness, I mean letting go and accepting is one thing but to let go of anger with without some kind of forgiveness i mean letting go and accepting on some level that equation equals forgiveness it doesn't you know what i mean i do you're not saying like you didn't do a horrible thing but you know i can't carry that there's nothing i can do to turn back time and and and the fact is is that you've got your problems you're're just a flawed person. Right. And, you know, whether you did it on purpose or what, for whatever reason you did it is not my business. Right. But you did it.

And I've got to frame that somehow. Right. Because I think it's more of a sham just to let go because that'll sneak up and bite you in the ass. Yeah, I got over that. And then one day something gets triggered and it's not resolved in your heart. Right. So that requires forgiveness, right?

Well, yes. I feel like I grew up with a lot of my mom saying, you just need to forgive them. Like it was lip service forgiveness. Right, no. Now, I feel like because I don't believe in free will, I can be empathetic with somebody and say, you know what? You had very little control over, like think of, I didn't see Philomena, but the nun who did that probably isn't a very conscious person who probably didn't have a lot of choice over how she was behaving.

And we could even go to how much choice anyone has in behaving. That's right. But those are the steps of forgiveness. Yes. And that way I can forgive. Like you didn't, it wasn't even you you were just you were the forces beyond your control created made you this person we allowed it to happen as a society that's the real and i had no power over and i had no power over it and you didn't either and the position and i'm not going to spend one

more minute thinking about it you know like that so you like that. So you'll go right up to the point where you say, I forgive you. And you'll stop. I don't like saying forgive. I do not like the word forgive. I just think it happened. It happened. I'm not going to. I'm not upset about it anymore.

I'm not going to think about it anymore. But I'm not going to say I forgive you. I just don't get the forgive. I don't know. I'm bad about that i guess well i i think it's i think you know saying i forgive you is probably harder than saying you know i'm sorry i mean like you know what if you say i forgive you and then one minute later you're like wait i take it back i don't forgive you because it's a wrestle it's a wrestle but asking for forgiveness um what about that no i hate anyone who asks for forgiveness, what about that? No, I hate anyone who asks for forgiveness.

Just, I want to slap them around the face. Because I just think, don't be so needy. Like, oh, so now you did this terrible thing, and now you also have to get forgiveness from the person? Give me a break. Maybe that person is just taking responsibility. That's like, can we just talk about me? First I did a terrible thing,

and now we get to have another conversation with me, and then I get to feel okay about it because you forgive me fuck you well you don't have to forgive him i know but then i will because i want to make him i'm a pleaser so that's the real yes i forgive you so when did you uh you you adopted a baby. And you were alone when you did it? Yeah. You were just like, I'm going to do this. I was in a relationship with somebody who I was really in love with

and he was not that into me. But I was really into him. For how long? Two or three years. And also, I know, when I go back, I think that,

he was a perfectly nice guy. Perfect one year relationship. Yeah. A perfect, if I just had the insight to say it was a great year. Oh my God. Obviously we're different. Yeah. There's no future.

Yeah. But what a year. How can anyone do that? But I wanted a kid and I wanted him to adopt a kid with me. And he already had a kid. I mean, like he's completely reasonable he was having difficulties financially just helping with this kid he already had yeah and um but i was like i'll pay for everything you know but i can't adopt if we're not married so i was

in this awkward situation where i had to be basically saying we have to get married so i can adopt a kid and he's like i don't want to be married or adopt a kid. Like, terrible. It was not conforming to your fantasy of what we needed. And then we broke up and I just thought, screw it, I'll do it on my own. And part of it was like my, like, Scarlett O'Hara, like, I will.

And it's amazing I did it on my own. As I get older, I'm more amazed that I did that. And what was the process? You talk about it in the book, right? Oh, just a lot of paperwork. Yeah, just, it's easy. I know people always say it's so hard. I go, really?

I found it so simple. You just fill out a bunch of forms and wait. And do you get judged as a good or a bad parent? Well, they come and talk to you, but everyone gets, I mean, unless you're really a nut. Yeah. Where's your kid from? She's from China, from Guangzhou, China.

Uh-huh. And when you do that, do you learn everything about her family? No, nothing. Well, she was abandoned at birth, so there's nothing you know about anything.

Oh, she was one of the female children. And in fact, we just went at Christmas and visited her orphanage. She was a year and a half when I adopted her. They just leave them

at the orphanage? No, they don't because it was illegal to give up a baby for a it was like an impossible situation for the chinese because there was a one child policy if you had a second child you were fined up to like an average three years wages which no one could afford right your family could inform on you and they would also be fined if a if a second child was found in the family. So the whole family colluded to enforce it. And then you couldn't give the children up for adoption. So they would just abandon them in places where they knew people would find them.

So my daughter's story was that she was abandoned in this place and somebody took her to the police station and said, I found this baby here. But then they told me, actually, that could have been a relative who just made up that story, you know, and took her to the, so they weren't implicated. And then she was taken to the Gwangju orphanage. Wow. And you got her at what age? About, well, she's about 17 months, almost a year and a half. And how old is she now? 14 and a half. How's she doing? Oh, she's great. Yeah? Yeah, she's good.

She's a camper. That's why I'm here. Because she was eight when we moved to Chicago, and she had been going to this camp, Riverway Ranch Camp, near the Sequoia National Forest. And she has all her friends. They go every year. So now every year I come out here for a week before and I put her on the bus as I did on Sunday. Yeah. And she goes off to camp.

And you found a man too. Then I found a man. How old was she when you found a man? She was six and she was eight when we got married. And how'd you meet him? His brother came to a, might letting go of God. Well, actually, no, I don't even know if that's true. He might've heard it.

Or no, he came to see the show. Anyway, he wrote me a fan letter. And the fan letter, the headline was Desperately Seeking Sweeney-in-Law. And he said, I'm writing to propose marriage to you on behalf of my brother. I would propose myself, but I'm gay and I live in San Francisco, so I don't think it would work out. But my brother is the perfect man for you. And blah, blah, blah about his brother who's a scientist. And his big deal breaker with women

is they cannot be religious in any way um so you're the person for him and i was actually writing on desperate housewives at the time i was a writer on the show and it was this weird funny letter and i showed it to the guys in the office next to me and we all laughed but i thought but i'm not gonna i wanted to write a good letter but i'm like i'm not gonna meet your brother because like call my brother yeah and but but he didn't know that the letter was being written anyway so I did nothing about it many months later I was doing I was doing letting go of God in New York and I came out in this woman who'd been at the show we kind of ran into each other at the lobby she wasn't even waiting for me she goes a friend of mine a really good friend of mine wrote

you a letter you know six months ago proposing marriage on behalf of his brother and I was like oh right she goes I just want to vouch for those two brothers i've known them since junior high and they're really funny and you should write the brother and i was like maybe i will and she's like you should i was like maybe i will and then i but i still did it and then six months later i was doing letting go of god again here in la and i came out after the show and i was talking to people in the lobby and there's this handsome guy there. And he goes, I wrote you this letter a year ago proposing marriage on behalf of my brother. And I said, I go, oh, God, that's right.

I go, I'm sorry I never wrote him. And he goes, I'm glad you didn't write him because he's an asshole. And I said, what? And then he told me that when his brother found out that he had actually sent me this letter and everything, he had gotten so angry and they had had a falling out and weren't speaking. And he said, my whole family's so mad at me over this letter now. And in fact, my mother came out from D.C. and she saw your show, but she won't even talk to you because this letter. And I was like, oh, my God, we should meet your mother. So we went.

So now the natural sort of like, let's try to make this right. No. So then I met the mother and she was hilarious. She's like, you shouldn't be talking to us. I told him that, you know, you were going to call the FBI on him. This is creepy stalking. And I was like, no, the letter was well written. It was a well written letter.

And then she said, well, I don't get involved in my son's lives at all. I'm standing out of this whole thing, but I would make a fabulous mother-in-law. She gives you the pitch. And actually she was hysterical. i was in love with her and the brother immediately i went home and then i really wrote to michael to say don't talk to your brother it's no big deal it was a funny letter it's just a lark don't no big deal and then he wrote back a few like days later this is not emails this is no this is all emails okay okay and then he wrote back three days later and the headline was, I am mortified.

And it said, I had just hoped when I found out this letter had been sent that you had some efficient assistant who would just delete a letter like that. So sorry to take your time. And then I was like, oh, don't worry about it. And then we just emailed and emailed and emailed. And then he came out to L.A. to visit and he was cute and smart and funny. And then we got married. That's a great story. So that's how.

I got a husband and then he has a business in Evanston. He makes scientific equipment. So that's why you moved out there? So that's why I moved there. Okay. And then we'll move,

I still have my house here so we'll move back in four years when Mulan goes to college. That's a great story. Yeah, it's good. So you still insist on working in show business

for some reason. Yeah, I'm working on my little projects. Yeah, it's good. So you still insist on working in show business for some reason. Yeah, I'm working on my little projects. Yeah? Like what? I'm writing a book of fiction and a screenplay to go with it right now that I'm hoping to develop over the next couple years. And this book, this came out, this just came out? This was last year. If it's not one thing, it's your mother.

Yes, that was last year. But this is essays. Yeah. That you wrote for the book or you've been publishing essays? For the book. Okay. Yeah. And you like it? No or you've been publishing essays? No, I wrote for the book. Okay. Yeah. And you like it?

No, I don't. I'm out of the personal life business. I feel like it's... It's hard, right? Yeah. It's not... It was fine while it lasted but I think once you have a kid...

Yeah. Because I tell stories about Mulan in there that she goes up and back about whether it's okay or not. Yeah, no, I know. I've run against that. So I asked her in advance

but when you're asking an eight-year-old if she cares if you write, it's not even like asking a person. And I know that's unfair, but of course I want to write it because it's funny. And then I have guilt about it. Yeah, I had that issue with my dad

and my girlfriend when I wrote my memoir, yeah. No, it's so, even though I love memoir, like your memoir, I loved it so much. Like I felt so close to you. And I love it it but i don't

want to provide it anymore for other people for myself well it's hard because you know it's hard not to feel exploitive of your personal life and it's and you are but yes and then it's also like you know like i'm very sort of candid about everything and then yeah i i like the relationship i have with fans and i and i like what i'm doing. But then you really start to wonder, it's like, what is private? What isn't? No, I know. Well, no, because it's all. And then the people that are in your life, they're like, what is private and what isn't?

No, it's creepy. It becomes a trust thing. Yes. Yeah. Yes. No, it's terrible. It's a really. And you're lucky you got a husband because like, you know, now like I don't have anybody

and you have my books out there, my shows out here. What crazy woman is going to volunteer to be part of that? Well, except look how I met my husband, which is fantastic. You never know. It could come through having done that. If I hadn't done that. I'm more than willing to make agreements. I've learned my lesson in that department.

I'm a little more, I hold back. There's some things I've got to keep to myself, because you don't know how it's going to pan out i went out what about when you know it's so funny well it's so hard what's but but i think in retrospect that you know with some distance in the moment like i made a big announcement that i was in love with somebody and it was all going to work out and it lasted five months and then i'm like now what do i do you know you have to just say it didn't work out. No, I know. I know.

But then it's like, it's not fun. It's not a great story. No, it's terrible. It's horrible. But that's life, right? I know. But see, I guess what I'm saying is I feel like I'm out of the game. The personal confession thing, I'm out of the game.

I want to be in fiction now. That's what I'm interested in. Are you confident? But I hope people like you keep doing what you're doing because i love it i don't know how to do fiction so so you're in luck i don't know if i can do fiction but i'm i'm enjoying what i'm doing now yeah so we'll see how is it what you it's new to you the the idea well just the idea that you can make stuff up that you can just take these characters and you can just make up their backstory and make up everything it's so much fun it must be fun yeah it's fun i've never tried it

i bet you'd be good at it you do i i just feel like my my imagination is really limited to fear driven things my imagination is limited to dread yeah but there's a lot of things you can write about that in fiction you could use that but i guess in general i feel like parents are fair game to me. I'd really, like if Mulan decided to be a stand-up and just trash every single personal

thing about me, I think that's fair game. I just think your parents are fair game. I think your kids are not fair game. Right. I don't think your spouse

is fair game. Right. And now I have a kid and a spouse and they do funny things that I know would kill. But I can't

do it. I'm sorry. I know it. Because I value them more. I think it would corrupt our relationship in a deep way. Well, this is a grown-up moral decision you're making against comedy. Well, yeah. It's true. No, I guess

I will probably be less funny for making that decision, but I'll probably be happier. All right. It was great talking to you. Good luck with it. Oh, thank you so much. Thanks for coming by.

I feel like I talk too much. Stop it. Wasn't that nice? Wasn't that a nice pre-Thanksgiving talk? Rhett Miller on Thanksgiving. Thanksgiving with a song. With a troubadour, Rhett Miller. Go to WTFpod.com.

I imagine already, by the end of this broadcast, which is now, that those mugs that Brian made are gone. But we're restocking the store. Restocking the store. Restocking the store with shirts and stuff. I pulled out another pedal that I don't know how to use for my guitar time. Thank you. Thank you. Turn it down! Boomer lives! almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats, but meatballs and mozzarella balls, yes, we can

deliver that. Uber Eats, get almost almost anything. Order now. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in

Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5pm in Rock City at torontorock.com.