WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 554 - Rhett Miller

Episode Date: November 26, 2014

Rhett Miller was tagged with the "alt" label early in his career, as in alt-country. But as Rhett explains to Marc, he was actually emo before emo was a thing, and that brooding, angst-filled teenager in Texas fought through some truly dark times in order to emerge as an accomplished singer-songwriter. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life when i die here you'll never leave japan alive fx's shogun a new original series streaming february 27th exclusively on disney plus 18 plus subscription required t's and c's apply all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the

fucking ears what the forget about it all right let's focus let's focus huddle up huddle up it's a it's a difficult day for some people. Okay, I'm not talking to everybody right now. Look, some of you may be thrilled to be having Thanksgiving with family. This might be a high point. It might be an opportunity for you and your kids to see their grandparents or aunts and uncles and their cousins. your kids to see their grandparents or aunts and uncles and their cousins. And that might even be the case.

And it might be a terrifying and taxing, emotionally taxing experience. But look, I'm not going to begrudge anybody a wonderful day with their family today. But I would like to speak to the people that are entering this situation with not the best outlook or disposition or with good expectations. Maybe I'd like to reach out to them right now because for some people, you know who you are. This is going to be a fucking nightmare. Today is going to be a nightmare. Look, let's give thanks. We'll give thanks.

But man, some of us,'re just gonna have to get through this shit am i right now i'm not necessarily talking about me you know i've made some peace with the situation i'm okay i'm getting better it's only taken me about you know 20 years to to be okay but you never know man you never know entering this situation let me do a little business here first and then i'll get but hang out. First, I want to say that today on the show, Rhett Miller, the wonderful alt-country rocker, is that what we call him? The old 97s is his band. He's also done some solo work. Nice guy, phenomenal artist. He's going to hang out and play a song or two. All right. Let's get back to the task at hand team.

I'm talking to the emotionally volatile. I'm talking to the emotionally sensitive. I'm talking to the emotionally traumatized, to the scarred, to the people with resentments against mommy and daddy or mom and pop or mother and father or whoever. Might be your grandparents. God forbid. They're the troublemakers but this is a big day man we got it we got it we got to suit up emotionally am i right now here's here's my pep talk i'm improvising this so so okay so look i don't know where you are right now maybe you're

already there maybe you're in it maybe you've you've taken a walk to listen to WTF to get out of the fucking house for a few minutes. Maybe the turkey's in the oven. Maybe shit is already cooking. Maybe you've already had a fight with your mother, your father, your brother, your sister, your cousin. Who it? A, B, C, D, E, or F. Whatever. Pick it.

Maybe you're the one who just lost their shit and and is now running out of the house taking a breather in the cold air taking in where you grew up maybe taking in where you know something very familiar to you maybe you're in the car you're going to drive around a little bit hey look there's where you used to buy liquor when you're in high school oh i wonder if that guy's still there oh hey i wonder if my friend's still alive oh i wonder hey i wonder if that guy's still there oh hey i wonder if my friend's still alive oh i wonder hey i wonder if that guy couldn't still be working at that place could he maybe i'll go by there oh shit it's thanksgiving nothing's open nothing's open i'm just gonna drive around until i feel better and then i'll go back home and everybody will be like hey you feel better and you'll be

like a little bit yeah i'm sorry i lost my shit. All right, let's get back. Get out of the fantasy. Let's get into the nuts and bolts of it. How are we going to have a good day today? All right, well, first, I think you've got to open your heart and realize that you're a grown person. All right, if you are a grown person. Most people listening to my show are grown people. All right, whatever they're going to do, whatever buttons are going to push their their old buttons.

There's no reason that they should work anymore. So I guess what I'm suggesting, this is bold. Disconnect the buttons before you go in. Realize where they are. And then, you know, maybe push them yourself a couple of times to make sure they're not registering and just shut that maybe close. You know, just I I would go on manual. No buttons. Just trust your instincts. Trust your heart on this. All right?

Just, you know, turn off the whole panel. And walk in and realize, first, all right, maybe you're pissed off about something that happened a long time ago. And it's just ongoing. And it's never going to be let go of. And maybe it's just about the cycles of emotional chaos that happen when you go home we all know that it's very easy to get around your parents and act like a fucking child and it's going to happen a little bit just pick pick the good pick good moments for it maybe make it be positive take a a breath. Take a breath. If you're cooking, don't hurt yourself.

You know, focus. Stay focused. Don't panic. If you need people out of the kitchen, get them the fuck out of the kitchen. If mom is intruding on your, you know, maybe your pie, say, look, I'm making a pie. You know, you can do your work over there, but just stay out of my fucking pie, mom. Whatever the case is is if you have family that enjoys sitting around watching sports and it's not your thing let them do it fuck it go in the other room talk to the ladies i'm sorry i don't know what happens all i'm trying to do is

tell you to have a nice time and be grateful that whoever is still around is still around even if they drive you fucking crazy the one thing you're going to notice when you get back there is that everybody's getting older you're getting older kids are growing up parents are getting older maybe grandma's still around whatever it's just that there's not a lot of time folks there's just not a lot of time with good families or bad families or troubled families there's just not a lot of time with good families or bad families or troubled families there's just not a lot of time and god forbid your resentment is so deep that you just want them all to die god forbid you're in that place and you're still going home for thanksgiving but for anybody else remember it's finite amount of time it's not a lot of time if you can get some clarity if you can get some resolve if you can let some

shit go this thanksgiving do it do it if you can make it right and get some acceptance of yourself and your family this is a great opportunity if you're with a bunch of people that are avoiding their families well just have a nice time then you your choice. I hope it's the right choice. I hope you don't long for that shitty dish that so-and-so makes. And for those of you that this doesn't resonate with, well, good for you. Have a great Thanksgiving. We can get through it, though, you know, the people I'm talking to. We're going to be all right, all right? Because I'm sort of telling this stuff to myself, too, because I wasn't going to go. There were some issues and, like, you know, I have talking to. We're going to be all right. All right? Because I'm sort of telling this stuff to myself too because I wasn't going to go.

There were some issues and like, you know, I have to cook and, you know, I was like, do I have to cook for everybody? I just, there were some issues

and I was, I haven't been in a couple years but, you know, I realized like, you know, everyone's getting old, man. You know, we don't see each other enough

unless you do, unless you're down the street. That's your choice. I know we don't see each other enough unless you do unless you're down the street that's your choice i know they help with the kids all right so we're gonna talk to uh rhett miller in a minute and uh i just want you to take a breath man take a breath i know she's annoying he's annoying annoying. They're annoying. I know it. I know you're on your last nerve. But you know what? You get to go home.

And theoretically, everybody loves each other. All right? So happy Thanksgiving. And let's talk to Red Milk. Calgary's DNA. A city that's innovative, inclusive, and creative. And they're helping put Calgary and our innovation ecosystem on the map as a place where people come to solve some of the world's greatest challenges. Calgary's on the right path forward. Take a closer look at Calgary Economic Development dot com. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday,

March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to kids night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com For now. So you're with the old 97s? Yeah, yeah. You're touring this new record. Yep, we've been on a bus. Which I have. Right here. Yeah.

Most messed up. What are you, 12 albums in? This is the 10th 97's album and then I've made five solo records including the one I made in high school. How do you look at the one he made in high school? Yeah, which is embarrassing. Is it embarrassing?

It's only out in, we made a thousand copies of the CD and I signed and numbered every one and I had a British accent. What can I say? Did you really? Seventh generation Texan kid in Dallas. But all the people I listened to were Echo and the Bunnymen

and David Bowie. So you affected that? Not intentionally. Just the music I liked, that's how they sang. Sure, I mean, that's what you do. It's like when you play guitar, you're going to feel somebody else.

You're going to pop strings. I like to land somewhere between Angus and Peter Green. Nice. If I can, with my limited understanding. So what was that first record? It was just you? Well, my bass player in the old 97s produced it. He was like a few years old.

He was seven years older than me. And we had girlfriends that were friends. We got introduced. And he gave me my first gig opening for his band, Peyote Cowboys. Peyote Cowboys. Such a great psychedelic band. In Dallas? Yeah.

And this is, what's his name? Murray Hammond. You've been with him that long? Yeah. Yeah. Since I was 15 years old. And he's a couple years older, I guess? He's turning 50 in two days.

So he's like what? I'm 43. So he's seven years older than me. Oh, wow. So he kind of took you under his wing in a way he yeah he taught me how to do gigs taught me how to smoke pot taught me you need that guy yeah it's important well it's okay so let's go back you're growing up in what suburban dallas big time suburban dallas i was kind of on the outskirts of the the uh like rich section because

my grandfather had a shit ton of money for generations. So you're one of those Texas aristocratic families? But it's kind of funny, because my grandfather managed to squander the entire fortune before I was even born. Was it oil or land? Textile. Textiles. The Millers were a textile family.

What did they make, like fabric? Yeah. In fact, I think most of the money came from kind of like profiteering. During the wars, they would sell uniforms to the government. So they had government contracts. Yeah, yeah. And made a lot of money, big Dallas money. Had the biggest house across from the Highland Park Country Club.

But then in 1954, my grandfather, who was always ahead of his time, decided he would buy a professional football team. So the New York Yankees football team, which was- There was a Yankees football team? Yeah. And they moved to Dallas and became the Dallas Texans. Yeah. Lasted less than one season.

And it was- A disaster. That was it. That's where he lost all his money? On a fucking football team? Who would think you'd lose money in freaking Dallas, Texas? How can he? Well, I mean, he made a big jump.

It was a vanity project. Yeah, and in a way, I think he shot himself in the foot. He did some stuff that I'm sure he would undo if he could. Did you know him? I did. I knew him a little. He died when I was like 17. And what'd your old man do?

He's still a lawyer. Yeah? He used to be the kind of lawyer that did a lot of like- You say lawyer like a Texan. I like it. Yeah. It's just a twinge. You don't have a lot of it, but I hear it. Oh, and when I get off tour with the guys, it's a little more. Kian, our guitar player, Kian.

Yeah. Like they'll say, what's his name? Kian? Kian. Is it Kim? Kian? It's Kian. Kian. So, okay, so your dad's a lawyer? Dad's a lawyer. And now he does all this, like, you know, good guy stuff, helping out people who are debt collectors or harassing them and stuff like that. People are getting evicted.

So he's come full circle? Yeah, yeah. He made some bread and he's giving back now? No, he never made any bread. Oh, he didn't? He was always a good guy lawyer? Yeah, he used to tell us that every third generation makes the money. That's what he would tell us.

So is that on you now then? Yeah, exactly. I'm like, this is too much pressure. My brother's doing pretty well though. Older brother? Younger. I'm the oldest. He's a year and a half younger.

He's a CFO of like a Fortune 500 company. He's the financial guy? Kind of. He's the guy that says, why are you spending so much money? Yeah. He's like, we should- Might want to pull it back a little bit. We should acquire this competitor. Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah yeah oh really yeah and you don't know what

kind of company it is it's a marketing it's a marketing company that mostly deals with like churches and greek organizations like fraternity kind of stuff oh yeah he's a he's a super sweet guy and super smart you know i guess our lifestyles on paper seem very different but we're not all that different well you look pretty good genetically. You seem to be holding up pretty well for a fucking rock guy. I mean, you know what I mean? You're maintaining your healthy, good looks. Your hair looks good.

Do you diet? No, no. I did put a couple of highlights in this year. Thanks for noticing. But you're not shying away from the gray? Well, I haven't had to deal with it yet. I imagine I might go vanity style and yeah you're gonna be that guy come on man you country guys you're supposed to age hard well my

my bass player is doing it for me he's doing it for everybody really isn't that weird man it is a little to think how long you've been doing this but i didn't realize you started so fucking young that's why you're younger than most of the guys in the band then oh yeah i'm by far the well no phillips our drummer's only three years older than me all right so so what happened so you're growing up in texas you got money that that's a whole other well your family does a little bit that's a whole other thing in texas texas money is there's something that it could be obnoxious you can tend to be obnoxious dude you kidding me growing up in Highland Park, and the weird thing was that we had sort of the trappings.

There was the things that fell through when all the money disappeared. There was a good house. Yeah. They got turned into a slightly less good house. Right. And, you know, kind of trading down. But staying in the Highland Park school system,

which my brother and sister went to. And it's not evil, but, I mean, you know, where does Dick Cheney live? You know, where does George Bush, you know, they all live in Highland Park. Does Junior live there? Yeah, yeah. That's where, his museum is in Highland Park. His museum is a block away from the house that I ended up growing up in.

I can't even imagine what's in that museum. George Bush, George W., not senior. W's museum. His presidential museum. What's he got in there? Some baseball paraphernalia and- Picture books. I don't know. I wonder what's in in there i'd have to go in there i just had a curiosity maybe i will so is he somebody you would see around no i mean i don't there later i think

anyways yeah i haven't lived there for 10 years or no god i haven't lived there for a long time it's 97 i moved to la so what were you doing as a kid when did you start playing the guitar? I started at 12 and it hurt my fingers too bad. So I stopped. Do you ever get joint pain? Yeah. And on this tour, I hyperextended my right knee.

And so I've got a sprained. With stage antics? Yeah, dude. I'm such an idiot. Like 43 years old. And I climb up. If it's a good gig. And I feel bad now for people that saw gigs where I didn't do this but if it's a good gig yeah at the end of the night um we start our final song

time bomb so it's the final song of the encore and I'll climb up on the drum riser and then climb up on top of my amp on the drum riser and then you know when the first big hit of the song happens I'll jump as high as I can off the amp and sometimes because some of the risers are pretty high my amp's always the same level but right you know I'm catching like 12 feet of air and then landing it and Chicago I landed it with my knees locked and oh man woke up in the middle of the night that night and just felt like what's wrong with me I just got I just felt pain from you saying locked and I just got hit with the pain yeah but okay so you're 12 years old and you play and then you like in junior high when did you cut that first record with uh

with uh murray yeah i i was 16 it came out when i was 17 and what was it a country song no that was when i had the british accent no i know but i thought maybe it'd be well it was it was exactly the same kind of songs i write now it It was really just strummy, folky, definitely one foot in the pop world, one foot in the... I grew up loving folk music. Like who? Like the Kingston Trio. Real square kind of stuff. Where'd you get that shit?

My parents, my mom. Your mom had Kingston Trio albums? She was a singer. She was always in choirs. Her dream was to be a backup singer for, I don't know, like Barry Manilow or somebody like that. Really? Your mom's dream was to be a backup singer? Yeah, yeah.

Like in that documentary, 20 Feet from Stardom? I think it's a low-pressure gig where you could probably really enjoy yourself. It's probably not even that low pressure. I mean, you've got to have the goods. Well, Sheryl Crow did it for years before she went out on her own. She was like a Michael Jackson backup singer. Oh, really? Yeah.

I had no idea. Do you know Sheryl Crow? She's got a great voice. i've gotten to do stuff with her she's super nice yeah you've gotten to do a lot of stuff with a lot of different people because i it's weird to musicians like even if i listen to a couple records i really like the musician it doesn't you all of a sudden if you're if i gotta talk to you then i'm like all right let's see what they've been up to i'm like oh i've missed everything i they've had an entire career. There's 900 records. And I know that one.

Well, I used to see you at Largo all the time when we were both at the old Largo. Yeah. We'd both hang out. I know you were part of the, you've always been sort of, there's a couple of you guys that seem to be around the, there's like you, Ted Leo, Amy Mann, Nico Case. There's some people that seem to kind of run in the same circle yeah yeah not like the

maybe the most inner circle with the John Bryans or the oh yeah and John is the Largo guy but I don't think I really know John

like I kind of like cause I lived in New York and I'd come into Largo occasionally I never locked into the you know like

Paul F. Tompkins and Galifianakis and those guys were there all the time and they knew John like I just know John is this like oh he's that genius guy that Mary Lynn used to go out with. I know him as a mythic personality.

He's a myth to me. He's kind of that way even with people that are friends with him. I mean, he's because he's so he exists in some other sphere, you know, and now as far as I know, he's totally on the backwards schedule. John Bryan. What does that mean? Wakes up at nine o'clock at night eats breakfast goes into the studio he's like a savant yeah like a uh like a pop music savant he's on a spectrum yeah of some kind yeah yeah that's what always my feeling of it was and then when he when he produced um like he produced one of the fiona records right yeah he worked on one and then

produced and and then he produced a couple right and then the kanye west record that was like when i heard he did that i was like what the fuck dude i went into the studio when they were working on that him and tom biller his engineer at the time was super great and they were like come on down kanye's not here it's super fun so i went in and they were it was real weird kanye's not here it's fun yeah it was real weird it was all quiet and dark and they're like being super serious and and i hung out for a while just watching them work and finally i was like dude what you asked me to come down you said it was fun what's going on they're like well actually kanye is here now but he's in the vocal booth

taking a nap with a lady he had been standing on the street chick walks by you want to come in and hear my dope beats or whatever yeah winds up in the vocal booth five feet away from us fucking going to town yeah i was like that's that's why i got into this business yeah this rock and roll right there or hip-hop or what it just it is what it is yeah yeah well what because you always had that uh a real pop sensibility, obviously from when you were in high school. Like, there seems to be, I know there's obviously crossover,

you know, you do all this stuff with the old 97s, it's your band, but there's a tone there, you know, that you honor that's traditional almost. I've pushed them. There were a couple of records where I really wanted us to try out

kind of remember in 99 i was listening to a bunch of bell and sebastian which is i don't know if you know them they're scottish yeah kind of fey they got called fail out which i think people when they say that they're usually making you know talking right but they would have strings and they'd have all that kind of stuff real lush you know but i liked it because it was fucking pretty but really clever words and cool melodies whatever i was into it so i pushed the band uh on fight songs to try and be just a little less because we were coming from a world the you know we made a record for bloodshot records which is i know those guys boy they they were pushing the term honky skronk at the time and i was like i don't want to be involved in anything that could be described as honky skronronk. It's what Alt-Country eventually became the tag that people used.

But the weird thing about what Alt-Country really was is that I don't think any of you necessarily realized what you were really up against. Yeah. those guys that you know i think early on steve roll in my my mind what he was doing as alt country earlier than than probably what you guys were doing has become mainstream country but yet he was still outside he was off the grid and if you're off the fucking grid in that nashville you know political situation where do you land i mean how do you build an audience well for a while nashville country was kind of like what steve earl was doing back on guitar town yeah and but i don't know if you're if you my finger's definitely not on the pulse of this but i've recently been hip to what's happening in nashville country now is it's

becoming like hip-hop like real white bread kind of hip-hop where these oh my god and the product placement right and the and there's like just a checklist of things you got to talk about. Your truck, your boots, your gun. I mean, there's like- Your broken heart. You got to name what brand of beer you drink, what brand of truck you drive. But the songs will be like, driving down the road.

I mean, they're like straight up hip hop songs. Right. And with Def Leppard guitars on them. Interesting. It is crazy. Yeah. They call it bro country. But if you go now and check

it out what's happening it's it's nightmarish it's like post-apocalyptically bad yeah but like when you guys were starting out i'd never understood what the fuck the problem was with mainstream i guess it wasn't mainstream country but it always seemed to be that there was some real kind of tension between the established order in Nashville and what was being called all country, which is actually more country than Nashville was producing at that time. Yeah. Did you feel that? Yeah. And it's funny.

Now you look back at what Nashville was producing at the time and it seems really kind of sweet and tame in comparison. It was just real poppy. We've had a hard time in Nashville as a town to play in. Nobody ever thought we'd get airplay on country radio. That was never even a thing. But that's all politics, isn't it? Because the songs are fucking there. Sure. They're too much there is the thing.

I remember when Elektra was trying to push us to rock radio or even AAA, which is kind of the sweeter, milder format. Right. But I'd have bigwigs at Elektra come to me and say, in triple a which is you know kind of the sweeter milder format right but um you know and they would i'd have um bigwigs at electric come to me and say why does your stuff have to be so sophisticated but what does that mean minor chords exactly a bridge i don't know it's like you guys go off the chart with that sweet sound and sad chord yeah you know we can't just keep it in the 145 region yeah where we understand the turnaround no i think they were talking about the lyrics too

i think i was a little too tricky for them but oh too clever what am i gonna do man well no you gotta be a poet you can't just all be you know flat out i mean there's a lot of great turns of phrases in country music and old country but i mean yeah you know if you get a little elaborate or you get a little sophisticated it's like they're people they're just driving their trucks they don't want to think yeah no the country world's never one i even thought for a second i could crack i did wish you played country music really i know i know that's true but then from dallas but like the old country thing is something i've thought about a lot because it's been my world for a long time if the beatles their very first kind of records,

the Skiffle stuff, if that came out in our world today, they'd be alt country. If Tom Petty's first stuff came out, they'd be alt country. Oh, hell yeah. Mystery Man? Yeah. Great. And, oh, God, there were some great country songs

in the first couple of Petty records, really. Yeah, amazing. And the funny thing is now that that's sort of the, everywhere I go, like all the bands I see playing are bands that are basically doing kind of just alt country some version of roots americana rock right and it's awesome like for when we were doing it in 93 when we started it was the grunge era you know and i remember a big part of why we started was murray and i were doing these rock bands it was so fucking fail you know and you were Yeah, yeah. I was fronting

Rats Exploding and Buzz and these terrible bands. What were you playing? I was the lead singer, guitar. But what was the music? What was he into?

Playing electric guitar and Murray was in and out of them because he was frustrated by it. And my problem was, I got... But what was the music like?

It was a lot like what I do now, but instead of swingy, it was real straight, you like? It was a lot like what I do now, but instead of swingy, it was real straight. Yeah. There was some mid-tempo swing stuff, but it was a lot of sludgy mid-tempo rockers with kind of clever words. Whatever. It was what I do.

But were they... Because you're pretty good at a pop hook. Were you doing that? A lot of that? I thought there were some great pop hooks. Yeah. I didn't have enough experience to... You like a pop hook. Dude, I love it. Two and a half minute pop song with a couple some great pop hooks. I didn't have enough experience to. You like a pop hook.

Dude, I love it. Two and a half minute pop song with a couple of really juicy hooks. That's the best thing to me. And that's really the model that has fueled radio hits forever. Yeah. But do you feel like you've been looked over? That's funny that you ask that. I did a thing with Paul F. Tompkins the other day.

We did a Wits taping. Yeah, sure, that's fun. Such a great show. And right before we walked on stage, I guess he had just come from a radio visit, which he and I... Don't you call them a visit? A radio visit, exactly.

You know, a promo obligation. Yeah, yeah. It's funny, I think a lot about how comics, like you do a lot of road work. Sure. And Paul does too. Your lives are a lot like my life yeah i'm not always on tour with the 97s really most the way i make my money is to go out with one guitar and with two guitars by myself yeah play a gig so it's a lot like what you do and so i'm sure that you get sent you know you got to go to this station and plug the gig sure and you do you do it. It's fine. It's what it is.

But so Paul had just done one of those and we're standing side stage in St. Paul and he looks over to me and he goes, dude, this radio guy just asked me the question that like every other radio interviewer asks me. Do they ask you this? He goes, a lot of the people that you came up with are really successful now. Yeah. How does that make you feel? And I get that all the time. I'm like, well, you know what?

I don't know if I would. I don't think I framed it that way. No, you didn't. You didn't. Yours was, but no, because I get that a lot. Do you feel overlooked? Well, yeah. Overlooked is sort of different

because it's one of those weird things because no one can deny the power of the music and the talent. And there's plenty of songs that you've done on your own and with the old 97s that are like where how come that's not huge yeah and it's it's it's overlooked in the sense that sometimes just fucking timing who the fuck knows who makes that decision or why it happens if if someone had the equation of how to solve that you know we'd all be making a million dollars.

I know. Our tour manager, Mike Dahlke, has this theory. You just said it all with that. I know. If you appear on TV, you should get a million dollars, right? If your face is on TV, you should get a million dollars. That doesn't even matter anymore. Who the fuck knows? It's impossible to know what's going to make

the most number of people go like, what the fuck is that? What's your tour manager's theory? Oh, Mike Dahlke, that's it. If you appear on TV, you should get a million dollars right that's that's how it's supposed to work sadly that's what people think they do think that and for years i was on tv a lot and i was i wasn't that was the only money i was making you know you you go on letterman as a band what do you guys you maybe you get enough to buy yourself dinner no it's a pretty good payday

those those because the bands because of the after like they have to pay you a certain amount right but but as a band they pay everybody a certain amount? Everybody gets the AFTRA minimum? It's weird. The lead singer gets the most. The drummer gets the least. It's such a hilarious hierarchy. Oh, really?

Yeah, of how it works. And what about music licensing? If they replay, how does that work? It's that thing where every time it airs, ASCAP goes out and beats somebody up and gets money from them yeah that's good thank god for ass cap ass caps great it's fucking great man i mean they have one now for a satellite play for comics called sound exchange are you guys on that yeah of course yeah and that's where i get it and it's like wow free money how do i make more money when i'm sleeping yeah exactly well that's what tom waits had the great line that I think about all the time. He was speaking at South by Southwest and he's kind of in between

songs on his piano and he goes, you know, I got into this business so I could write a song and then say, now fly away and go make daddy some money. All right. So wait, let's go back to 94, 93. So you and, uh, you and Murray are kicking it around in and out of rock bands oh dude and we were living so wheels off and so shitty we were eating ramen noodles like there was i dropped i had a full scholarship to sarah lawrence college to be a creative writer where'd you oh you went to a fancy high school right well that's what that's what it was i was going to this skipping back to my grade school years i was in highland park with all the rich kids yeah i got beat up because we didn't have a maid and i got beat up by rich kids yeah i got beat up by rich kids and basically one

i had a reading is fun pin on when i was a fourth grader and a fifth grader came up to me and said the principal told me to punch any kid that was wearing that pin and punched me in the face and i was like you know what fuck this i'm i'm literally getting beat up for being like not a dummy for being creative for being a guy that wants to write and do things cool. So I researched. You're an arty kid. Yeah. So I researched other schools.

I said, fuck this. I'm going to go to a private school. And I found Bard College has Simon's Rock of Bards is smart kids school up by where I live now in the Hudson Valley. And then in Dallas, there's a school called St. Mark's and it was all boys private school. And it was, it was, it's a fucking great school. It's amazing you know um so i went and i just set it up myself i asked my parents i said i'm i'm gonna do this and

if i can get into one of these schools can we figure out how to pay for it and i i went to to st mark's and i remember i was a fourth grader when they interviewed me i guess summer after my fourth grade year and i was applying for sixth grade and I um they said so what books have you read lately and I said you know what book I just read that I really loved was Catcher in the Rye and they're like why are you reading that as a fourth grader and I don't know because it's because it was supposed to be good yeah and um but I talked about his relationship so you're a precocious fourth grader of course yeah and so I got into St. Mark's and and you know even that it's there's still football players everywhere you go.

You know, like the kids. Yeah, even if they're not playing football. It's a character type. And I learned pretty quick that I shouldn't necessarily be playing football. It was a moment where they line up in those drills where you're all like, you carry the ball, you tackle him. And so the big mean kid that I knew hated my guts, like, counted the people and lined up across from me. And then when he tackled me, he'd whisper through the ear hole in my helmet, quit the team, faggot.

Oh no. And after like the fifth time, I was like, you know what? For an idiot, he's giving me pretty good advice. I'm out. I'm out. But I should go back and thank him. Exactly.

Wherever he works. But I had fun at that school. You know, it was- That happened at the fancy school? Yeah, that was the fancy school. So there was there was a line drawn yeah so i hung out with the weirdos there and then i started doing music you know at 15 i was doing gigs at you know what were you doing primarily writing were you involved were you writing poetry were you right no it's funny you ask i was i was the editor we started a literary magazine called the rag yeah that was so

cool right on the rag and uh yeah i wrote a lot of poetry and then i realized that We started a literary magazine called The Rag. We thought that was so cool. Right on, man. The Rag. I wrote a lot of poetry, and then I realized that writing poetry is not cool. I did it. I think that was when I was probably ninth or tenth grade. I had an English teacher, and we were assigned poems. I wrote poems. Everyone wrote poems.

We were going to read them out loud in class and mine were just like gut wrenching thanks they never well they never looked at me the same way they were sort of overly sensitive and talking about how everything's like meaning they can yeah well yeah that and just sexual frustration and that and yeah I never got looked at the same yeah yeah it's got that power poetry can alienate but as well as enlighten but if you you know put some chords under it and sing it a melody and it's the same exact thing i mean the absolutely i love it so i get to secretly be a poet now and nobody makes fun of me i mean

to my face but so you you did the rag and and did the rag did all that stuff and uh the gigs but when did you start writing songs uh 13 so played guitar at 12 quit went back to it because i was like i gotta fucking write songs this is driving me crazy yeah and i was i was pretty tortured you know my my parents were going through there's a line in a robin hitchcock song uh and it rained like a slow divorce it's this such and my parents divorce took 10 years and it was 10 years because your dad's a lawyer well no no it's just because they didn't want to break up and they and they they should have and eventually they did but you know they were 13 i was i was 7 when it started and 17 when it ended oh my god and i'm not blaming them for my i was i was just a fucked up kid you know i the world the world made no sense to me

like why is it that the assholes get to win why is it that you know i get beat up for reading books you know like they'll they'll call me opera singer and then and stick my face into a locker and i'm like opera singers are fucking cool yeah you know it just did none of it seemed fair so you felt alienated but you didn't you you didn't like you weren't driving around breaking things. You went inward or did you drive? I went inward at 14. I had a suicide attempt that was pretty gnarly.

That's really should have worked on, you know, I did. Yeah. Yes, I did. And I've made a point not to talk about it much. So, so at 14, you know, at that point you're right in the rag, you're, you're playing guitar. It was the pointlessness of it. Like, well, what do you do? So you grow up.

You try and get a job to get money to buy a bunch of shit, fill your house with the shit, look at it, dust it, die. Like, it just seems so fucking pointless. Oh, so the emptiness. Yeah. You went Nick Drake. Existential. Yeah, you just went like, you played it out. I saw where it was going.

I saw the end game. But you didn't see that even though you were making these observations and that you enjoyed things that most other people didn't enjoy, there was no hope there because there was no winning. Well, at 14, there wasn't. But then very quickly thereafter that, I discovered sex with girls. Well, how'd you try? Oh, the suicide.

Yeah. I thought you meant the sex. I know how that goes. You get the hang of it eventually. Yeah, it took a while. Yeah. Well, let's see. I basically decided I was going to drink anything with a skull and crossbones on it.

So I went under the sink in the guest bathroom and I found all these lamp oil fluids, which actually was the thing that ended up saving my life because they're oil based. And even though they're poison, they coated the lining of my stomach. And then when I went up to my mom's medicine cabinet and downed every pill in every bottle. Oh my God. This is like, you had to go room to room. It's a moving suicide attempt. You just go like, well, what what else is there I can ingest?

It was crazy. And then a lot of Valium, which slowed my system down so the toxins couldn't pump through. For trying really hard to take all the wrong shit, I took kind of all the right shit to not die. Did you go down? Did someone find you? I did. When I realized, I went and sat down in the living room and I was like, okay, now, now what, what's, how long is this going to take?

Yeah. And then all of a sudden I realized, oh, this is really happening. My legs are numb. And something about my legs being numb made me want to run. So I ran out the back door and to the railroad tracks a block away. And I ran down the railroad tracks to the Knox Henderson little shopping center that was near our house. And when I got across the street from on the border, there's a 7-Eleven parking lot. And I just went face down in the 7-Eleven parking lot. And there was this really beautiful girl named Barry who went to the Arts Magnet High School. And Barry- You knew her?

No, I didn't know her. I ended up being friends with her because she saved my life. But she saw me go down and she's like, this is not right. So she went over and rolled me over and found a number in my wallet that was my girlfriend's phone number you had a girlfriend yeah yeah yeah i did so there's a lot of things going on yeah it was complicated all right so barry what she did she called the girlfriend whose dad was a doctor and they came and picked me up and took me to the emergency room not an ambulance no i was like well you could have. Not an ambulance. No, I was like, well,

you could have just called an ambulance, but I think she thought maybe I was just fucked up and she didn't want me to get in more trouble. Right, right, right, right. So yeah,

so I went and they didn't pump my stomach because it would have killed me. So they induced vomiting. So I, I guess I, I was unconscious, but I vomited for hours and then woke up the next morning. And that weird thing of surprised to be alive. Like, oh, shit.

Didn't work. Didn't work. Wow. So then you became friends with Barry. Yeah, I became friends. I wanted to go out on dates with Barry, but she was older. She was like 17. She must have came like some sort of unwanted angel.

She was so hot. Really? What was going on with the girlfriend that drove you over the edge? How much of it had to do with that? Well, I know over the years that she has been sensitive to, because when it happened, it was all of our friends knew and everybody knew. And she and I might have had a fight that day, but that was just one piece of them. My mom and I had a fight that day. The I might've had a fight that day, but that was just one piece of them. You know, my mom and I had a fight that day, you know, the universe and I had a fight that

day. It sucked. But, but you know what I figured out was, and this is actually one of the other reasons I knew coming in here today that I'd probably wind up saying this was I've been working with the suicide prevention lifeline and now, now just recently. And, and I think it's's it's something nobody fucking talks about because it's so dirty and embarrassing and it see it's so vilified you know it's like oh the most selfish thing you could do well the people that are doing it aren't are thinking about it or trying

it aren't thinking about it or trying it because they think fuck you they they think fuck me i'm fucked my world is fucked the world would be better better without me. Yeah. And that's a horrible thing to think. And it's something that you can outlive. And I'm not going to go PSA style on you, but it is something, I outlived it. And within a year, I was writing songs and I had my first gig within a year of that and played in front of people.

And the next thing you knew, I had all sorts of reasons to live, you know? Right. Well, I think also that if it's not necessarily depression driven but it's driven by by the hopelessness that comes from you know um you know problems at home or like trauma of some kind that where you're just you know the discomfort is so intense or the hopelessness is so intense you don't see any point uh it's it's it's definitely a different thing you can grow out of that yeah but people that battle with that listlessness of depression

wow i like i have a hard time even picturing it you know what that decision because when you're in it the brain's tricky you you honestly you think of a whole list of reasons why it makes sense makes perfect sense because you can't see it ever being any different in that moment. Oh, yeah. That's the worst. That's a tough thing. Well, yeah, but that's also like it's one of those things where, you know, as a sober guy, you know,

that when you want to drink, you know, people are like, well, it's going to go away. It's going to pass. You know, just wait it out or go to sleep. Tomorrow's probably going to be better. But if you're locked into something like, fuck that, every day's the same, you have no ability to see forward or behind you to make any rational decision yeah but were you uh when you came out of that i mean you know being that type of poet

with the the one suicide attempt under your belt that's that's some cred in a way yeah i used it i cashed that card in i got dates i got gigs i got bands you were emo before emo you were you were troubled boy well i have thought about that actually i remember when emo started happening i'm like they're just doing what i do but they're having a little less twang you know there's a lot of those three four waltzy kind of songs a lot of like oh shit the world is full of shit kind of well i think think that what you're talking about really in relation to the hierarchy of what is mainstream high school at that time, it's just that those kind of the kind of kids you were, it's going to be a rough road no matter what. Yeah. And, you know, we just happen to be in a period now where, you know, people can sort of find their own way.

And that turns out to be a fairly profound and popular niche of that type of troubled teenager but i think it's always been there but it was just that the paradigm was so set you know you're either a jock or you're a pussy oh especially in dallas texas oh absolutely i'm not sure albuquerque new mexico was we had a lot of uh like there's a lot of latino influence we had a base you know the mix there you know there was a pretty a pretty big black community and i went to a public school so yeah it was there but it was definitely more uh diverse yeah because i think that texas can get pretty white and pretty weird yeah there's definitely class lines and and ethnic lines oh it's a real segregated town yeah it's it's tough i'm i'm so glad that i live now in and nothing against dallas dallas has gotten

a lot better i've still got family there and tons of friends but um you know i live in new york you know there's there's black kids and mexican kids on my kids baseball team they're all friends nobody even talks about it and it's funny you know my my eight-year-old daughter she'll you'll say like who's who's your favorite person she'll go well it's either rosa parks or you know and it's just because rosa parks is a fucking badass that's why right i think it's sort of fascinating that that the tide has turned a little bit for for kids who are who are sensitive and and creative because really there there was the jocks and then there was the pussies and then there was the the math nerds or people that no one knew how to talk to yeah they were just the in playing dungeons the dragons and you know i was that too you were that too really i was not a math nerd but i but i did play dungeons the dragons like i would be one night i

was opening for lords of the new church at club clearview you know stiv bader yeah kick-ass punk rock band we were whatever goth protooth. How old were you this time? 16. Really? And then the next night I would be, you know, at my friend John Greenman's house in the garage playing Dungeons and Dragons. Well, that makes sense, I guess. But 16, so you were playing in a band that was good enough. No, I was a teen folky.

And in Dallas, I got kind of embraced. I would open for Red Cross when they came through, Lords of the New Church. I opened for Chris Isaac right before Wicked Game broke. At 16? With my little ovation guitar, my 12-string ovation. Round back. Shittiest guitar in the world.

And you were just singing your songs? Just singing my little seashell girl keeps fire inside. Yeah. Oh, my God. So it was sort of, it was kind of like Nick Drake-y in a way. Yeah, yeah.

And boy, it's funny. I think now, I think back on it and some of the lyrics on that record i made in high school like i would never write lyrics like this anymore not because they're bad but because they're so shocking like there was there's one song ryan miller from guster has become a friend of mine but apparently when he was young he had mythologies the record i made in high school and played some of the songs the first ever guster gig apparently they played the song song for trim and cap. And there's a line in there,

well, the beer was on the floor, his wife was on her knees, he was pissing on Christ, and she was praying for peace. I would never write pissing on Christ in a song anymore. And I don't know how I, in high school it seemed like a great idea, and people loved that song.

Now I feel bad, because I don't want to do a disservice to you because I know that you have very passionate and loyal fans. So they all know mythologies. I mean, mythologies. No, they don't. It's, it's the, if there's a holy grail of my catalog, it's, that is not, it's not on Spotify.

It's not on iTunes. A thousand copies exist when they go, when they come up on eBay, they sell for like 350 bucks. I mean, it's, I've tried to keep sell for like 350 bucks i mean it's i've tried to keep it out because for two reasons it's a little embarrassing because of all the the the british accent yeah and um i kind of think it's fun it's so pre you know 21st century to have something that's not available it's cool like how many things are not available anymore so that's cool. Like, how many things are not available anymore? So that's, okay, so that's 89. So you're 16.

I guess it came out when I was 18. Okay. Yeah. But still. It was fun, man. Those days, because my parents were going through so much that, and it was kind of a different era. Like kids, you know, when we were kids, you'd ride away from the house on your bike in the

morning and come back at night. Nobody fucking asked where you went, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. They had their own things going on. So as a teenager, my life was a lot like that. Like, Mom, I got a gig tonight. I'm going to crash at so-and-so's house. And there's this artist commune warehouse where people had just art studios and music studios.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, those are cool. Yeah. And so I used to just sleep on the floor of this gallery. So really that generates it. See, I live the same life in a way that, you know gallery and so really that generates you see i i live the same life in a way that you know you're this kid that has these interests but you're not going to find other people that can really guide you through any of that or show you that it is a

lifestyle until you sort of lock in with those older cats yeah who are like you know living it yeah and then when you first meet them you're like oh you can do you can be a grown-up and fucking do this yeah so. So you had them. Yeah. I had a great, you know, Murray, for instance, our bass player, was really great. How did he find you? He had a girlfriend, Jennifer, and I had a girlfriend, Jennifer, and they were friends with each other. And they said, hey, you like each other.

So he was dating a younger girl. She was a little bit younger than him. Because he's seven years older. And I was dating an older girl when I was 15. Okay. So I always hung out with older people. Yeah, me too. Yeah. Well, why wouldn't you?

No, at least you want to be understood, even if it's a little bit condescending. Yeah. Like, even if they're sort of like, oh, look at the little arty kid. Exactly. I didn't mind. Yeah. Like, I'm learning from you fuckers. Yeah.

And so what were you learning outside of music? What was the art scene like there? Was there photographers, art i mean still there's all sorts of weird shit yeah i i learned that music was the only way that i could see to make to make a life out of it because the rest of it like i'm not gifted in any kind of visual art sense right but i just think that's tough because you make a painting that painting doesn't do shit it just sits there yeah one person buys it one time yeah you know if i do a song i can play it every night i can put it on a record i can sell it so the it just seemed like an easier commodity to try and you know sure negotiate so you knew that so i knew that and but i did like all the weirdos and the artists and the stray

cats that lived around maybe they used to follow me around i would just walk around it's great man it's great to know that there is an alternate reality to to the mainstream idea yeah you know and that in in it's much more interesting i just went back and spoke to the kids at st mark's school my alma mater and i've done this before over the years i had my 20th and whatever reunion that was fucked up but um i've done it over the years where i'll go back and try and pick the five or six songs that are the least inappropriate for me to sing for these you know the middle school and the upper school but i went back this time and i decided i'm going to give them a speech i'm going to sing a couple of songs and then i'm going to give them a speech because since i left the school's become way more sort of business oriented and it's driving kids

specifically into you know hedge funds and that kind of stuff. Right. And, um, which is fine. I get it. You know, you got to make money. But, um, so I gave a speech about there is a possibility of a life in the arts. You probably have to give up the idea of being really wealthy, but you can make enough of a living to have a family and a house. Right.

And, and what you're doing and you have to ask yourself is giving up the money um uh is the sacrifice of that worth getting to fucking make something beautiful and give it to the world because you're making the world a better place what you do is making the world a better place yeah i think i think that's true i don't know if i ever really really thought about that because it's hard to know because I always assume, like I have said before, that I think music is sort of magic in that it sort of replenishes itself. It doesn't lose its magic. It really just doesn't. Like once something is

laid down, once a song exists in the world, you can go back to it at different points in your life and either get something new out of it or get exactly what you got out of it the first time that it will connect with something fundamental to your soul or to your heart and and it will always be there i mean and if it wears out you don't listen to it for a while yeah and

then eventually you're like i want to hear that song and you're like holy fuck it still works like that's that's an amazing thing to me and then when you think about it in in it as a gift it definitely is it definitely is something that makes the world a better place and you can't deny that about art i don't know why i'm just thinking about that now because if you like even when i think about artists that that don't resonate or don't get as big as as other artists or whatever there is that moment in your life where you experience that and it does something to your brain that's going to shift you in the direction of of of freedom and and a better place than than the other way it's it's it's art versus an empty existence exactly exactly

and that's and that was that was where i came out the other side with the suicide thing was i this is this is what it's all about filling up the world with beauty yeah you know and um rain wilson's become a friend over the years. And he's a Baha'i faith guy. Yeah. And which actually kind of is cool. Like, I'm not a religious guy. Yeah, they kind of mix it up.

Yeah. But one thing that he said that I really, really liked was the creation of art, the act of creation is prayer. Like, that is the holiest thing you can do because you're acknowledging something bigger. Because the most cynical thing you can do is just sit on a couch and do nothing and just be a vessel filled up with whatever. Or just work.

Or just work. Yeah, exactly. Work for the empty payoff of, I don't think security and a sense of well-being is necessarily empty and certainly there's a lot of people that struggle to even have that yeah but but to sort of you know not have any definition that nourishes your spirit you know in this process of working is a disaster and i just i don't like the sort of like well i have an empty job so i can have enough money to retire with and on weekends i go on the boat I'm not begrudging that and I and I and there's

part of me that envies people that accept that is like an okay life you know and that you know what what but it's not for everybody the the art thing I know just isn't yeah people some people weren't meant to do it but and they're okay yeah but that's what i was saying to the kids it's like obviously most of you guys are going to do the kind of stuff your parents do and make a lot of money and that'll be great but there are some kids in here that are maybe meant to do art or music or whatever and you're like you know who you are yeah exactly but they're scared shitless because it's fucking scary and yeah and their parents are like a lot of times parents who are who don't want kids to do that, it's only out of fear of their future.

There's very few parents that are like, art sucks, don't be a pussy. They exist, and I'm sure that they're, your parents weren't like that though, were they? No. No, but they exist, but that's a different problem. The people I've talked to who are creative people, if their parents resisted, it was usually because they were afraid for their future.

Of course. And when I dropped out of college, my parents said, whatever little money we have, you don't get it because you did that. You gave up a $100,000 scholarship to a great college and now you've got no fallback plan. And I was like, that's the whole point. I don't want a degree that I can fall back on because then I'll do it because it's way easier and so for 10 years i fucking ate ramen noodles did you go through that did you go through the real squalor like just the well my parents were relatively supportive but we and once i started doing comedy i was very stubborn about taking money if unless i really was in trouble yeah so yeah, I lived on the Lower East Side, but I really tried to earn my own money,

but I was not ever completely cut off. Yeah. So it was squalor of a different kind. It was squalor in the sense that I didn't know how I was going to make it, but I never really thought about it. But that's a good thing, right? Because it made you have to fucking get out there

and work and work to get better. I never thought of doing anything. I never practically thought of doing anything else. After a certain point, you don't, either you're compelled and possessed by it. Yeah. But like there was never really a functional plan B other than go back to school for something vague.

You know what I mean? Yeah, exactly. Like that was always the thing. Like I could go back to school, like you barely were there the first time. You did okay, but what do you think is going to happen? Yeah. I don't know. So you drop out. What were you think is going to happen? Yeah. I don't know.

So you drop out. What were you studying? What was this? It was creative writing I was there for. Yeah, but why would they cut you off if that was your... I mean, there was no big payoff to creative writing. Well, a college degree would at least... It still held a certain amount of esteem then.

I know, right? It meant something. Yeah, not anymore. So you drop out what? After what year? After one semester. One semester? Yeah. I was, but I had a great Were you depressed again or not? No, no, no. I had a great

semester. I had two girlfriends who were incredibly awesome that I, you know, one of whom I was still really great friends with. All my friends were seniors was the funny thing. Again, I was only hanging out with the older kids. You seem like kind of a girls guy. You seem like a guy that girls are going like, come here, were seniors was the funny thing. Again, I was only hanging out with the older kids. You seem like kind of a girl's guy. You seem like a guy that girls are going, come here, let me take care of you.

I guess I've never suffered in that regard. Poor you and your ramen noodles and pussy. Well, I find that about you. I noticed that about the old 97s even, and primarily I think you, is that you somehow amass this following of sort of groovy, you know, alt-y chicks, and they've sort of stayed with you. I imagine at this point that you have like 45-year-old women that have been watching you since they were 23.

Fortunately, the fan base does sort of regenerate, you know, and the weirdest way that it does is those 45-year-old women that you mentioned will bring their 22-year-old daughter. That's when it gets a little weird. Yeah. But yeah, yeah, it's sweet. It's all right. I had some, a manager friend of mine said once,

the whole 97's records are for the dudes. Your solo records are for the chicks. Is that true? Not intentionally. I think it's all for the chicks. that true uh not intentionally isn't it yeah yeah i guess kind of rock and roll in general that's the whole point of rock and roll that's why there's on the new record there's a song called let's get drunk and get it on and when i brought it around a bunch of people were like are you serious you can't just say that i'm like are you fucking kidding that's what every single song i've ever written basically said in so many words right right yeah yeah yeah fuck me i mean yeah that's the whole

point of rock and roll but you know you gotta be sweet you know yeah i mean i think a lot of your lyrics speak to a vulnerability that that is not that aggressive maybe that's what they were concerned about oh yeah definitely what are you some drunk monster oh but the song is really sweet it's a it's a total love song it just happens to put it all you know on that yeah yeah yeah well all right so let's get back to this country idea so you know you leave college and you are a folk singer to some degree or at least a a solo pop song writer i mean what was the thing that brought you guys into deciding that that was your mode because i mean the old 97s you know it's a country band really yeah well murray murray was living in dc when i was going to sarah lawrence and he would come up on weekends and we would

play and i'd go down to the city and play cbgb's was open at the time and i used to play at the cantina the can't cantina place next to the next to it and so I do every like Friday night I'd be on the bill at the cantina and go back up to the thing but I was really just jonesing because I'd I was used to doing music I was doing four gigs a week before I went off to college yeah so to be doing just one little 30 minute set a week was freaking me out yeah and Murray would come up and play we'd hang out and play and so he was like dude you got to drop out you got to drop out. You got to drop out. Yeah. So he goes, come on, drop out.

We'll go back to Dallas. We'll start a band together. So went back to Dallas, started a band called Sleepy Heroes. Yeah. Which was really fun. But it was, you know, I've never been a great marketer. Like the word old, for instance, is apparently anathema to marketing. Right.

So, you know, we started this band. It was a three-piece. I played a 12-string Rickenbacker. Murray played bass, which wound up being sort of the only lead instrument. It just wasn't going to happen. I remember there was a band around that time called Material Issue that came out. I love them. They were great, right?

Kim and the Waitress. I loved them. So good. That guy, I think, killed himself. He did kill himself. But they were a three-piece. I think he played a bunch of 12-string. And so it was possible that that format could have worked at that time for a minute.

But we weren't executing it that well. The world wasn't ready for that in general. I mean, I don't think it really worked for them. I mean, it was pretty limited still. Yeah, it was. Yeah. So that band broke up the day that the box of records came back from the manufacturer of cds and um for whatever reason our drummer whatever here they are problems yeah here what do we do with them again just self you know defeating so we uh we broke up and then and

then i went through a series of bands oh god it got it got complicated like murray and i had a falling out briefly where we had entered a battle of the bands at the Hard Rock Cafe. We won the first round and we were going to go to the finals. And between the first round and the finals, Murray and I had a fight. Over what? I was upset because he was saying he wasn't because he I'm going get in so much trouble for saying this by who by Murray Because he because his mic technique was bumming me out like he wouldn't sing into the microphone enough And then he couldn't hear himself enough

And then his harmonies would be off key and I just I sort of tried to do an intervention to get him just oh He's gonna be so mad Literally over it was exactly still he's not gonna get mad he's not allowed to get him to... Oh, he's going to be so mad. What did he say? How long ago was that? Literally over... 20 years ago. Yeah, exactly. He's not going to get mad. He's not allowed to get mad. You guys have got to be beyond that.

I love you, Murray. But it was stupid. It was just a dumb fight. And so he quit the band and then I brought in a fill-in bass player to do the finals because there was like

$5,000 worth of gear if you won, which we did. And Murray came and sat in the balcony and got drunk and watched this and was all mad. So there's a couple of crazy years between Sleepy Heroes and the old 97s where I was trying different bands.

And I had this one band called Buzz that was just a piece of shit. And I had a band called Rets Exploding. Like, why is that a good band? Who thinks that's a good band name? I don't know. You did, clearly. Yeah. I think Murray thought a good band name? I don't know. You did, clearly. Yeah. I think Murray thought of that band name, though.

But so these bands were, like I said before, sludgy mid-tempo rock. Yeah. And they were kind of trying to be what Nirvana ended up being, which is this distorted guitar with real pop hooky things happening. And there was one night, Murray and I were roommates in this shithole apartment, Marquis de Courts in Dallas. It was the night murray and i were roommates in the shithole apartment marquita courts in dallas it was the night nirvana did snl yeah and we watched that and i remember we looked at each other and went we gotta fucking stop we we we're never gonna be done we're never

gonna be as good as that yeah and they're doing it this is already happening and we're trying to do something that's not even coming naturally to us and so we took like six months off and we didn't do shit and we were listening both listening kind of obsessively to hank williams and um just to feel better just to yeah exactly just because it was so pure you know those songs there's just they're they're they crystallize what i love about music yeah the hooks and the sentiment and the the kind of honest raw emotion yeah and the simplicity of it. So we came together one day and we said, you know what? Let's do this. Let's do, and originally we said no drummer. Let's just do something that's coffee shop based where we can play songs like the kind

we really like, but it doesn't stand a chance of, because the rock bands we were doing, the whole point was to try and get fucking signed because this was a different era. So did the A&R guys seek you out after Mythologies or no they they would come around every once in a while but they'd come and go how can you do a band with no lead guitar you know about sleepy heroes the band yeah and then and then when we would it just never worked it never clicked and and you know why because it was fucking disingenuous right because we were calculating what the world wanted and then trying to give that to them and it was bullshit because people smell that yeah so when we did old 97s the whole idea was let's do a band that has no fucking chance of ever being popular getting signed it'll make us happy and of course ironically

because it was what we were you know sort of let go of that to do yeah and people started liking it yeah and a lot of people like it you built a pretty good audience you know you you they sustain you don't they they still come around and they're then still it's the kind of music that doesn't really date itself well that was that was that was calculated we were like if we do this it's just real and we can do this for fucking ever and you know look at willie nelson and really honestly that's only ever been my goal to be the next willie nelson or the next christopherson maybe you know right but you don't goal to be the next Willie Nelson or the next Chris Dofferson, maybe, you know? Right. But you don't seem to be living that life.

I mean, you seem like you're in pretty good shape. Yeah. Willie's all right. Willie still gets out. No, no. But I mean, like, you know, it's a notoriously hard life. I mean, Chris, they all kind of beat themselves up at one time. Yeah.

But I think that maybe was more a product of that time. Back then, everybody was doing tons of coke. Drank on it. Although that was a really early on a decision that I made. I did not. a product of that time back then everybody was doing tons of coke and everybody drank on although that was a really early on a decision that i made i did not i saw the people doing blow and in my early 20s i tried it some because i was working at a restaurant here and there between that's where you drive well at a restaurant this fucking crazy chefs yeah yeah the guy who hangs around that has it there's always somebody that had it and then but i just realized uh i would look at

the guy that had it and i'd be like realized uh i would look at the guy that had it and i'd be like do i want to be that guy when i'm 40 fuck no man yeah so that was an early decision in the band i was like we're not nobody nobody do blow you can smoke however much weed you want you can drink just and no smack no blow good so no one got strung out nobody thank god not in the old nice heavens and that's why that's why people bring their daughters to see you well 20 years later yeah well it's so funny you're And that's why people bring their daughters to see you. Well, 20 years later. Well, that's so funny. You're saying that so it sustains me.

Not only does it sustain me, but this record we just put out is the biggest record we've ever put out. It's crazy. We had our highest chart position. We're selling out venues that we'd never sold out before. 20 years in. It only took 20 fucking years.

That's all right. You still look good. You just hurt your years. That's all right. Yeah. You still look good. You just hurt your knee. You'll get over the knee. But because the record, it rocks. It feels good. And the first song

is a nice long song. It's a meditation on a life in rock and roll. Yeah. Yeah. And that guitar, is that you up front on that thing?

The acoustic is me. Oh, who's on that electric? That's Ken. Ken's the... That's a filthy sounding guitar. I like it. Yeah, he's like the defining sound of our band. I mean, as much as Murray's ooze and my whatever.

Yeah. Ken's weird surf. His caveman guitars. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's like... And it seems real autobiographical. It seems like... You know, I think what's happening is that there's a wisdom to it now.

Yeah. I mean, you guys, you still seem to get along. You still put out good music. You can do your solo albums, and people love those. But then when you guys all come together, you're pros, and you can speak from a place of fucking earned wisdom. And it took 20 years for me to, because I always, I don't maybe, I know just from my interactions with you and what I've heard of your stuff,

that you battle with that like self-worth. Like, do I belong here? Am I good enough? That anxiety. Right. I always suffered from that. Like, you know, like I'd meet somebody famous. I'd be like, oh God, they don't want to talk to me.

Why would they want to fucking talk to me? Yeah, I'm not in their league. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I saw the Ray Romano episode of the TV. That's so fucking funny. But I've always kind of felt like that. Oh, thanks for inviting me.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, and oh, stop it, Ray. You sound of the TV. That's so fucking funny. But I've always kind of felt like that. Oh, thanks for inviting me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, and oh, stop it, Ray. You sound like an idiot. Yeah. But you don't, like the weird thing about that disposition is what is going to change that? What kind of input are you going to get?

They're not, if people really love you, they're going to be feeling the same thing. Like, I'm just going to be cool. It's Rhett Miller. And I'm not going to ooze. You know, but like a lot of people are like you're fucking great and you never believe them when they say that especially if willie nelson said i love your stuff you're like thanks

for being nice so you know it's it's it's an all it's all an internal dialogue but it took this long and now i don't really have that i mean it's it's still something i always fear i'll always battle with but i don't have that like i, I don't belong here. I suck. I'm not good enough. And it took me fucking forever to get over that. And that's this record. Yeah, that's this record. Well, there you go.

Boom. You don't give a fuck anymore. Yeah. Finally. Finally. Congratulations. So when you worked with John Bryan, because I'm still sort of fascinated with the idea,

because when you look at, I guess a good comparison would be the breakup of Uncle Tupelo. Yeah. In a sense that what happened between Jay and Jeff. Jeff had loftier pop aspirations and Jay was a country rock guy. Yeah. And they couldn't survive it as a band. So what seems that you're able to do

is you have the old 97s, which does your songs, and you guys do have pop elements, obviously, but you're grounded and rooted in that sound, the traditional sound, and you can go do your pop records, and there's no big tension there. First, it was weird. We had just done Satellite Rides,

which was our last record for Elektra, and it was 99, 2000, and the whole business was changing. It was when it kind of imploded. Elektra Records was about to fold. Elektra picked up the option for me to do a solo record, but not for the next 97's record and that fact alone was weird created a lot of tension

and then I went off and did a record that had a budget I mean do you remember back then the record budgets were that was like a $350,000 record who fucking needs $350,000 to make a record I mean John Bryan and I spent every penny of it we locked out the studio

NRG Studios for like four months uh-huh we brought in jim keltner and josh freeze and like the greatest musicians in the world and we would spend whole days trying to find a guitar tone for like one solo just that did you like that i had never known anything like that before i'd only made records with the 97s which tended to be much quicker more live kind of affairs it was really fun i mean watching john bryan work and you know getting paid to watch him work that's it's awesome and it was a great experience it must i've never been in a studio like some uh the uh why the trapper chef in the shades yeah i'm friends with those guys yeah they asked me to play on a song

and what's his name was producing it you know the guy you brandon mitson he's great he's great but i'd never experienced any of that you know the the type of kind of like finessing that you can do down to a note oh yeah you want i was like holy fuck this is a real job i've been here all day you know i i thought i knocked this all out you know an hour ago i thought i nailed that rhythm that's hilarious but uh but yeah, I mean, it's a whole other world, that shit. It ain't just playing with your friends. No, but now, there was a time back when that record got made, we had a guy on staff whose job was to go home every night and comp things, which is to compile different performances into the perfect Frankenstein monster performance, which is now so par for the course and accepted

that I feel like it's kind of sucked a par for the course and accepted that I feel like it's kind of sucked a lot of the fun and humanity out of music because everything is so perfectly comped. Back then, you had to have like a full-time guy to do that. Now, people can just comp so quickly. Right. You know, it's a lot. The technology has made it so much easier, which is good and bad.

Well, what'd you take away from that, you know, in terms of your music of working with a guy who is sort of a genius like john bryan i mean in that experience how did that affect the future of what you do well i learned to play diminished chords for one thing basic guitar stuff yeah yeah i um he's a really inspiring guy because it's it's always about just following your instinct. Like for him, his instincts involve seeing, I think, really seeing the architecture of the music as it's unfolding in front of like the next five seconds and five minutes are all unfolded in his mind. And he knows where he's going and what he's doing. But it's really about trusting your instincts and not settling for, well, that was good enough, I guess.

Right. And John would never do, he would never be like, that's good enough, I guess. Right, that's the same with, what's his name? Brendan Benson, yeah. Same thing, like they're possessed. Yeah, and they both can pull it off. And they have a vision, obviously. I mean, that's right, it's trusting your instincts,

which is not something you and I do naturally. No, but it's ironic because you and I both do jobs where you have to do that. You have to make immediate decisions. Right, but you fake it a lot. And a lot of those things are reactive, so you're not really thinking it. That's true. That's true. And I've heard you say stuff where you'll fall, like, I'll go to this routine.

If so and so is happening. I remember David Cross opened for me a million years ago at the Fez, the underground cafe in New York. Such a great room. It was my old favorite room. And it was just a goof. I was like, hey, do you want to come do a set opening? And he's like, yeah underground cafe in New York. Yeah, yeah. Such a great room. Yeah, it was. It was my old favorite room. And it was just a goof. I was like, hey, do you want to come do a set opening? And he's like, yeah, fine, fuck it.

I just got off this college tour. And so he tried out a bunch of material that was like, not even material. Yeah. Like he just walked up there and was like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. And it was an audience that didn't really understand who he was, I don't think. Yeah. And he was kind of bombing.

Yeah. And I saw it. He knows how to bomb. And I saw it in his face where he was like fuck you people and he went into like his most killer a routine yeah and and yeah he slayed and he walked off stage to just people going ape shit but i could see it in his face like fuck this i'm gonna do the yeah yeah yeah that moment right all right bring it yeah yeah well i talked to like those guys like the guys in uh in blues, which was interesting because they come out of that whole jam band world.

Yeah. And it was like they knew. The one thing that I got out of that was that don't shoot your load too early. Yeah. Save the big song to the end. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or even the build of a song. Yeah.

Or even if you're going to play some lead, make sure you know, make sure you, you know, you save the big, you know, the big stuff for the end. That's funny. I wrote a song. The one co-write on the new record is with this guy in Nashville, this funny old song writer named John McElroy that I got put together randomly with. And I saw him in Nashville. We played the other night and we'd written the song together and he's really proud, it turns out, of the song.

And he plays it for people. He's like, if Dylan came over to my house, this is the song I'd play him. And we had fun writing it. We got fucking wasted at 10 in the morning and his house full of ferrets

and weird animals. But when I walked into his house, he said, I've been looking you up on YouTube and I think your audience would appreciate it if you walk up to the mic and said, fuck.

And so he had this idea for a chorus and the chorus was, who'd I gotta blow to get in this fucking show? It's dark in there, I know, appreciated if you walk up to the mic and said fuck and so he he had this idea for a chorus and the chorus was who'd i gotta blow to get in this fucking show it's dark in there i know and i got nowhere else to go and so together we came up with this story about you know i married caroline but it's this whole story about this guy who just fucks up his world fucks up makes mistake mistake and so in the first verse of the version that we recorded he said um i married caroline back in may of 99 it was fucked up at the time,

but I figured we'd keep trying. And so he goes, you know, the one thing I wish we had changed is I wish we had, cause in the second verse, it's, um, uh,

wake up from this motherfucking dream. So there's a big motherfucking that happens. Yeah. And then it goes into the chorus with who'd I got to blow. Yeah. So he's like, the one thing I wish we had done is saved the fuck till the set, till when the motherfucking happens. Cause it's like you shoot your wad too early with the fuck in the

first verse yeah but i did i i sort of disagree because i'm feeling like fuck it this is the song where i get to say fuck i'm gonna fuck every chance i get right well that's interesting though that's the songwriter instinct is that that's a it's an entertainer's instinct yeah yeah well you want to play a song i would love to uh i guess I'll play Nashville since we talked about it. Okay. Well, I married Caroline back in May of 99. Was fucked up at the time, but I figured we'd keep trying. Her brother and her dad, they were spitting mad.

When I packed up what I had and took off running, it was bad. It was mean. I didn't care And it's gotten me nowhere, so I'm trying to be a better man I turned left, turns into right, turned sunshine into night Got my ass kicked every fight, no I couldn't get it right I built castles out of sand, I couldn't understand Why everything I planned ran like whiskey off my hands

And my hands were never clean, things I wished I'd never seen I'd do anything to wake up from this motherfuckin' dream Food I got to blow, to get in this fuckin' show It's dark in there I know and I got nowhere else to go I need a place to hide, so I'll put away my pride and come inside because I'm tired of running. And there's a universe that's floating out in space And I look up there and I can't find my face

And I'm seeing my reflection backstage Writing down the same old words on the same old page Dude, I got the flow to get in this fucking show It's dark in there, I know know and i got nowhere else to go i need a place to hide so i'll put away my pride and come inside because i'm tired of running yeah i said dude i got to blow to get in this fucking show it's dark in there i know and i got nowhere else to go i need a place to hide so i'll put away my pride come inside because i'm tired of running and come inside because i'm tired of running and come inside because i'm tired of running

yeah god damn that guitar sounds so full nice gibson Gibson J200. It's unbelievable. I play this little J45, but that thing's just full. That's great. Well, thanks, man. It was great talking to you. It was so great being... You know, you've always been so nice and kind to me when we've run into each other, and I'm honored. And you know what?

I'm really proud of all your kick-ass success. Oh, thank you. You too, man. I'm glad the fear is gone. Woo! Yeah. See, that was a fun chat, wasn't it? That guy's a good guy.

Good song. Go to WTF.com for all your WTF needs. We got the merch in there. That's a Stratocaster. That's that Strat sound, man. Am I right? Thank you. A little loose, a little loose. Really, happy Thanksgiving. And I like this sound a little better.

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