WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 555 - Norman Lear

Episode Date: November 30, 2014

Legendary producer Norman Lear is responsible for shows that not only changed television, but altered the culture at large. At 92 years old, Norman joins Marc in the garage to reflect on his early life and the path that led him to All in the Family, The Jeffersons, Good Times, Sanford and Son, and so much more. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

lock the gate all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fucking ears what the fuck nicks what the fuck eridians what the fucking ux yeah there are a lot down here there's a there's a few a lot of french canad Canadians, Germans down here in Florida. I am still in Florida. I'm holed up in a small room in my mother's house in Florida. I'm waiting for them to come home. I'm not waiting. I'm hoping I can get this done before her and her boyfriend get home because, you know,

I don't know. I'm not going to say anything bad, but I got to record here. It's either here or in the car. I hope you had a good Thanksgiving. I think I had a good thanksgiving i'm still here though i'm not a hostage but i am locked in this room right now to do this i am in hollywood florida i have uh i've done a bit of florida since i've been here i'm i'm uh i'm i'm keeping it together as best i can, people. I'm just doing what I can. I've tried to treat myself well. I've eaten too much. Thanksgiving went well.

I did all the cooking. It all worked out. Things are working out. I do feel a little constipated at my mother's house. I feel emotionally constipated, physically constipated, mentally constipated. I guess, really, my body just does not want to lose its shit on any level, any level. And I think, I don't think that's a bad thing. If you can be emotionally and mentally constipated with some empathy, I think that's,

that can be somewhat healthy in certain situations. Now, of course, the physical element that's probably has to do with the dinner. The best Thanksgiving I have cooked, quite honestly. 22 people came. I enjoyed the company of maybe 19 of them. I'm lying. I forget that people listen to this. But oddly, not my relatives.

My relatives pretend like they listen to my podcast. The only one who really listens is my mother. The rest of them, they, and my TV show. It's like, I saw the one with the, yeah, I watch your podcast. Okay, no, that's fine. That's, you know, I don't expect that type of support or attention. People are busy. They do know I'm a celebrity at the level of celebrity I'm at.

Someone brought a People's Magazine crossword puzzle where I was a clue. And that seemed to be very impressive to many people. So, yeah, the cooking went fine. Oh, classic momism. At some point during the day on Thursday, she said she had a friend who was OCDC. Classic. Enjoyed that very much. Yesterday, for a quick second, we were out in public and we ran into somebody my mother knows and she introduced me as, this is my friend Mark.

I mean, my son. I got demoted to friend status for about six seconds. You know, it's always tricky with family, but I will say this. You know, I don't know if you know this, but my mother, when I was a kid, she painted. She was a painter. She painted constantly. She was always painting. There was always paintings around. We'd go look at paintings. She would take me to galleries. If I have any sort of idea of what art is. It's because of my mother. And for years, I mean, when I was in, I guess when I was in college, she had gone back for her master's and decided to bail on that for whatever reason. But it was not a happy decision. But the great thing is that she's painting again.

She's painting big pictures. She's painting on canvases. She's taking classes and she's painting big pictures she's painting on canvases she's taking classes and she's painting so on saturday night we went out to uh like an open studio thing at some place called fat city village or something there's all these art galleries and art studios they do an open art walk thing and she had a couple of pieces uh at the studio where she's taking classes it was very exciting it was like going to my mom's art opening i was very proud of her and it was a very sweet thing she's doing uh she's doing uh painting again and she's loving it and it's uh it's changing her life and i was very excited for her and that was nice it was nice to have good feelings and uh you know i'm getting a little

choked up here but that was um that was a highlight a highlight of the of the trip i think my mother just got home we don't need to talk to her do we i don't want i don't want to do it i want to do it let's just let's just let's just stay let's just stay focused let's stay in the groove. Today on the show, Norman Lear joins me at my home, in my garage at the Cat Ranch in Los Angeles, California. Norman Lear had an epic life and an epic career in show business. And it's hard to get it all in. I always get a little nervous when I talk to these guys that have 70 years in the racket. How do you put that all together and i

read most of his book i thought i read most of it i brought it with me to florida to read the the rest of norman lear's even this i get to experience his memoir beautifully written hell of a life i'm going to talk to him in a few minutes in the garage but how do we you know how did your thanksgiving go seriously did you keep it together i mean i'm still down here i'm leaving today and the leftover situation is not great like i i just i went running today down the boardwalk in fort lauderdale because i'd eaten here's here's the thing i don't i don't know who can relate to this but it doesn't matter my grandmother goldie used to make chopped liver now if you're jew you've got chopped liver in your

life somewhere you got i'm even talking now like i'm from new york because i've been here for three days you see what's happening to me i can't come to florida because there's a part of me that's ready to become an old jew i was at i don't even know why i did this i when i picked up my car at hertz they're like you want a Mercedes for $25 a day more? Why am I even lying to you? It was $35 a day more. Now me, never driven a Mercedes. I've driven Toyotas for most of my life.

Never, never driven a Mercedes. Never been in a Mercedes. Would never think to buy a Mercedes. So why? Because I'm not that guy. So I've been offered the opportunity to not drive the Toyota I was going to rent for $35 a day more.

I can be that guy. I can have a Mercedes, which I would never even think of buying. I would never think of having it. But what's the big deal is my question. What's the big deal with this car? Do I need to experience it? And I got to be honest with you. I got it.

Not great. Yeah, it's a solid car. I'm not going to deny that. But it was not great. Yeah, it's a solid car. I'm not going to deny that, but it was not great. Not a great experience. I found that the left blinker or that the blinker thing was beneath the cruise control thing. And instinctively, you always want to hit the cruise control, which is annoying because you have to then undo it. So that was a problem.

Did not like the smell of the car, but that might be by virtue of who was in there before me. I don't know. Solid car, but don't give a shit. I don't give a shit. Couldn't hook my iPhone right up to it in order to listen to music. It asked me, do you trust this computer? Why would I trust the computer in a German car

that who the hell knows who's gonna look in the head of that thing later? So couldn't even play my music. Listened to hip hop all weekend, which was fine. I need to get up to speed. Need to get up to speed. Need to get up to speed. So the leftover situation, chopped liver. So my grandmother used to make this chopped liver, which was outstanding.

And my aunt, my mother's sister, makes it for Thanksgiving. But like, I haven't really thought she'd nailed it ever. You know, I finally nailed my Thanksgiving dinner. When's she going to nail the chopped liver perfectly? Well, this Thanksgiving, it happened. And I took one piece of the cracker and I put the chopped liver on it. And I was transported right back to my grandmother's house. And everything fell into place.

My mother, my aunt, my cousins, everybody. My uncle, who's kind of obnoxious. Everybody sort of fell into place with the entire history of me almost on a genetic level. There was a warmth that came over the situation and it seemed like decades and decades of weirdness and resentment or distance all just closed in around this cracker

with chopped liver on it. That was exactly like my grandmother used to make it. It made the entire weekend. Is that crazy? Some chopped liver. Everything made sense. Everything in its proper place. All is forgiven.

All distance closed. Right there. On the cracker. Grandma Goldie. Rest in peace. So what's going to happen now? I got to get home. I got to get some kale in me.

I need some greens. I'm starved of greens. Nothing is moving. Everything's blocked in my heart, in my mind, in my colon. All blocked up. Enough of this holiday. I got to fly for five hours. Chopped liver.

It all came together. It all came together it all came together on a cracker the history of me the history of my people all right let's talk to norman lear A lot of stuff in here. A lot of stuff in here. Oh, I imagine you've got to have a lot of stuff. I have a lot of stuff, yes. I have a lot of stuff. Well, you know, I read a lot of the, you know, I got locked into the book, and I'm reading the book. And, you know, it's interesting to me because, like I said, my family's from the East Coast.

And my grandma Goldie and my grandpa Jackie, he owned a hardware store. But there's this whole generation of those Jews and those people that grew, you know, those first or second generation immigrants. It's just, it warmed my heart because I don't hear about it anymore. And you grew up in it. And I grew up in it, yeah. So how old are you? I'm 51. You're 51. you're 90 92

right so you'd be like a younger of my grandparents generation probably yeah but just to hear the stories and the similarities in the in in the in and just the names even there are names in there that are part of my family yeah suskind i don't know. I think that was your what? Your brother-in-law? Cousin. Your cousin? Yeah. I knew them. I had family. It reminded me of my family. Now, it seemed like, to me, a lot of the book was reconciling what you went through with

your father with who you are now and how you feel about yourself. Oh, a lot of it. Yeah. What was he in your mind? The first word that rushes to mind is, I ache to just settle for rascal. Yeah. But the fact is, he stole. And the fact is, he kited checks.

And the fact is, he was sent to prison for it. How old were you? I was nine years old. And that's when he saw your father carted away to prison yeah that's when uh he went he was he was flying to uh tulsa oklahoma yeah he was going to bring me back a 10 gallon hat it may be explained subconsciously my attraction to hats. Yeah. And my mother told him she didn't like these guys he was traveling with, or he wasn't traveling with them,

but he was traveling socially with them or business-wise, but he was going alone to Tulsa to do something. We didn't know what. Came back with some phony stocks that he tried to sell to a brokerage firm. Well, I don't know where the hell. He might have been selling it in Tulsa because he was arrested when he got off the plane. And that very night or the next night, there were dozens of people at the house.

My mother was selling the furniture. She was moving. house. My mother was selling the furniture. She was moving. Some fool was trying to buy or did buy my father's red leather chair, which cut me to the quick. As I say in the book, that's the chair from which he controlled the radio. And on Friday nights, there was a fight from Madison Square Garden every Friday night of my youth. And that was especially a closeness we had because my mother and sister didn't give a damn about the fights. But 10 o'clock Friday night, we were at the radio listening to the fights. He was sitting in that chair.

And he was in that chair. So he got arrested and that was it. Everything went. Yeah. My mother took my sister. She never admitted that it happened. What?

That she took your sister? And that she was gone. You know, I mean, I didn't see her but once or twice in the course of the next few years.

Why? Why would she not? Who the hell knows? I don't know. Who'd they leave you with? I went with my Uncle Al and my Uncle Eddie and then my grandparents. You have no idea what she was thinking, to just leave her son at 12 years old. And when I said to her, in the course of the years, where were you?

What do you mean, where was I? I was there. Right. All those discussions would end with, please. Enough. Enough. Enough. Please. But it seems like it was interesting to me

because I grew up with selfish parents. I have a narcissistic father. You call it in the book, you say your mother's a narcissist. It's very tricky to parent yourself and to get that love that you need. And it seems to me that in the book, you're sort of sourcing.

And you spent, one of the things I noticed about reading it is that a lot of psychiatrists in the book uh-huh you know that you were you your wife was in therapy you were in therapy everyone was in therapy everyone was in there it was just the thing you did like uh like a doctor for the cough right right but but you were never able to to track you know until it seems that you wrote this book that you know your need for you know some parenting and some love it might have been what was driving you into in the show but going back to the psychiatrist for a minute there it's like there were a lot of fiddle players and every once in a while there's a great violinist

sure i feel that way about uh about uh psychiatists. A lot of people fiddle around. I fiddled around with a lot of people in therapy. And, you know, I caught a good one. You did. And that's why the hunt was always there for the good one. Right. And this was, like, recently or a while ago? So a little while ago.

But certainly in the course of writing the book, a good deal of it. Did you find that in writing you were able to, like, because I've written a bit, and you find out things about yourself in the process, right? Oh, my God, yes. Oh, I found out a lot. Because what were you, like, mostly memories or your thoughts or what do you think? Well, it's hard to be a human being yeah i mean it's i don't care the circumstances of birth they could be altogether terrific right it's still hard

to be a human being sure it's harder when you determine to find out who the hell you are as a human being right and uh and that's what i realized in a little while after I started writing that was happening to me. I didn't want to settle for the stories I could tell without knowing who the hell I was telling them. And so I dug at it, you know? Right. And you actually say that about yourself, that you learned from, I think, Roland Kibbe.

Oh, yes, Roland Kibbe. The writer, the TV writer, that one of the things you said you learned from him was that you should go for perfection. It doesn't mean you'll get it. It doesn't mean you'll get it. But put the work in. I love Aristotle's,

I'm pretty sure it was Aristotle's definition of happiness. Happiness is the exercise of your vital abilities along lines of excellence, whether you reach it or not, in a life that affords some scope. You're happy if you're doing your thing. You have to know what that thing is. That helps along the way. And in a life that allows you to well like you said in the book at some point that you you started i think in a moment of fear that whether it was i think it was probably in the plane uh-huh that you realized in that moment

that you'd already already lived like three or four lives maybe maybe six lives. Yes. And that part of that ability to remain somewhat fearless in the face of possibly your life is that you're going to have another life. I believe that with all my heart. Yeah? I believe that. By the time I had, I think you're talking about the military. Yeah.

I flew a bunch of missions out of Foggia, Italy. And when I think about how the hell did they get me to put on a flak suit and an electric suit, I forget what the hell we called it, and an oxygen mask and get into a plane to be shot at from the ground and in the air. Yeah. I'm not that brave. And as much as I love my country, how do you get me to do that? Right. So I think all the motivation was there. But still, getting into that plane required organically, innately, that I didn't believe it was going to be me.

I could be frightened as hell, but I was not going to die. Yeah, and you didn't. And I think all the times we hear about people near death who are laughing, who are, it's just possible that they still, at the last moment, don't believe it's going to be them. You're winning.

You're winning. But it's interesting that you say with Aristotle that finding out what you, doing what you want to do. Because it didn't take you as long as some people to really lock in. But you definitely had other objectives early on. And it wasn't always show business. I mean. objectives early on and it wasn't always show business i mean i didn't know it wasn't show business at all i didn't think of it well it was to the extent that i wanted to do what my uncle jack was my uncle jack uh as you know was uh was a publicist and he had a quarter to flick me when he saw me. Yeah. He was the only uncle or anybody else who ever flicked me a quarter.

Uh-huh. He was also, because there was nobody else doing well and well enough to flick me a quarter, I wanted to be a publicist. I wanted to be Uncle Jack. Uh-huh. You didn't know what it was necessarily. And I didn't at that time know what it was. You didn't know what it was necessarily.

And I didn't at that time know what it was. But when I was overseas out of Foggia, Italy, I went into Foggia and I found myself a printer as I was rounding my 30th mission or something. And I stood over him. I spoke a little Italian. And I stood over him and we picked letter for letter. And I wrote a page, which I have a little Italian. And I stood over him and we picked letter for letter. And I wrote a page, which I have a copy of. And it was a page selling myself as a young publicist. Yeah. And I remember clearly writing.

I didn't want to be the guy in front, the guy they were asking, who's that? Yeah. I wanted to be the guy behind him who was responsible for his being somebody they could ask, who's that? Right. You wanted to pull the strings a little bit. I wanted to, yes. It was a writing job in a way. Right.

Yeah. And what I'm learning, by the way, just sleeping way ahead, what I'm learning now is how much I'm enjoying this conversation, talking about myself where I never ever did. Never ever did. Do you think that's because you wrote it, the book sort of gave you a window into it? Well, I'm enjoying being myself. Oh, good.

It took 90 years? It took the better. Not that I had a bad time. Believe me, I had a good time. I know. But it took me nearly 90 years to have this good a time. To feel comfortable in your skin or what? Will you just feel like?

I long, in the course of writing the book, I came across an article that suggested I did the Charlie Rose show. I remember doing the Charlie Rose Show. I remember doing the Charlie Rose Show many years ago with three guys that I admired totally. They were business guys who were major leaders. And I came to know them at a couple of other long stories. And I did the Charlie Rose Show. Yeah.

So now I looked to looked in files and elsewhere to track down that Charlie Rose show. And I came up with two of them. One was me and these three guys. But one was me a year or two before that all alone. One hour, he and I. I put that disc in and I look at that and I think, oh my God, I just love that guy. It was me and I didn't recognize me.

So I spent a lot of time with myself not recognizing, which is just another way of saying enjoying being who the hell I was. Right. Well, it's hard to. I mean, you know, because you're so busy moving forward, engaging. It's hard to have that perception of yourself that other people have. You got to watch you. Yeah.

I think you need a little help in the rearing, too. In terms of parents? In terms of parents, yeah that what do you think was missing in retrospect uh attention right you know just knowing i was there to start with well that's interesting because you know when you have selfish parents and your father was in prison for what like three years yeah but he the the the profound thing to me was that when your kid even when he came out of prison it seemed like you were in conflict and you sort of resolve it a bit now with this charismatic guy who was a bullshit artist and a hustler but he was your dad

and he had a lot of charm and a lot of bravado and you loved him and he had a zest for life right that's what i love right that did you ever hit that point where you're like well there must have been something good about this guy oh sure and then you can focus on that that's how i spent my life right yeah that's why i say rascal yeah as opposed and your mother was just like all about herself, huh? My mother, my mother, she loved doctors. They cared for her. Maybe she didn't notice that she had to pay them to care for her.

But she always had a favorite doctor to talk about. Somebody else was saving her. Right. And I have, my son-in-law is an inveterate, he's a doctor, but he's an inveterate photographer and film. I mean, he's filmed our lives. Yeah, yeah, yeah. From the day he came into our family.

Yeah. And he showed me some footage, I'd forgotten, of an interview he did with my mother when he had just met her. So it's a great many years ago. And actually, I can tell you exactly how many years ago, because she came out to California to see her grandson, Ben, who was my first child with my wife, Lynn. We've been married almost 30 years. The one you're still married to now, the third wife. Yes, the third wife. And he, my son-in-law, was interviewing her on film. And she's talking about me.

He's interviewing her about her son. And I never am older than 9 or 10 or 11 years old. She's talking about this kid who was terribly funny. He used to fall down the stairs to get a laugh. That's a quote. And not at all about the father of her three older grandchildren and the television personality or writer, producer, every story relates to my youth.

And then he says off camera, oh, here comes your grandson now. And I walk in carrying Ben, an infant, two, three months old. Now my mother, I wish this was a television because I'm performing her for you radio people. So her arms are up and she's going, oh, oh, ah, oh, ah.

And her fingers are within six inches of the child in my arms. She never touches him. And this is 30, 40, 50 seconds of ah, oh, ah, ee, ah, oh. She never touches the child. She's offered the baby to hold. And I could not help thinking, this was my mother. Right.

And I was an infant too. Oh, there is a story, I mean, that was legend in the family, that when I was that, oh, I forgot about this. When I was that age yeah she was washing me in the sink and dropped me uh-huh and ran next door for the neighbor and uh you're on the floor no no in the sink okay I'm in the sink with the water she went next door to get the name

because she didn't know what to do so in book, I tell one of the dozens of times, because she, in a sense, dined out on this. She loved that story. Yeah. And so she would tell that story at different times. This horrible story. And everybody would laugh and so forth. And I would say, well, Mom, why did you run for an eye?

Yeah, I wanted to help you. Why didn't you just pick me? I mean, she would wind up with, please. Yeah, right. How interesting that all her memories of you, if you're telling me what you're thinking, were before your father was arrested. Well, pretty much so, yeah.

I mean, I was bar mitzvahed. I tell those stories, but she never, my folks never mentioned that I was bar mitzvahed or that I won a contest and a scholarship to Emerson College. That's so sad. Now, when you were, like, do you feel the grief of that? I mean, do you ever let yourself?

No, and I don't want to sound like I feel the grief of it. No, you don't sound like that. But I'm just saying it's breaking my heart, and I'm sitting here. Because, well, there are other things in your life that could break your heart, I'm sure. Yeah. Because we're all. Well, I had similar parents, selfish parents. And, you know, when you crave that love that you're not going to get that

window's closed door's closed and after a certain point you feel that weird ache of it and you know what the hell that ache is until the day you do and then you realize well what the hell am i going to do with that feeling well i think subliminally i haven, you get that love by giving it. If it's not there for you to begin with, you get it by giving. If you have it to give, right? If you have it to give, and you certainly get it if you give it. That's right. So let's track the exciting adventures.

So you're in World War II. What's exciting to me as a guy who, you know, I'm a comedian myself and I talk to comics, is that you seem pretty aware,

you know, in retrospect, you know, the moments that influenced you and sort of building your ability to create comedy

and what was great about comedy, what resonated with you. Uh-huh. And I found a great story about the Frank the frank sinatra performance and when you feel silver yeah when you were in the army and uh because i had no idea

that people would feel that way about frank sinatra but what you took away from it oh i never forgot it well what happened exactly well uh i'm Foggia, Italy, and it's announced that the USO has got a show coming over. They're building a stage out in a big meadow, and maybe 15,000 or 20,000 of us are going to be out there to see this show. And it's Frank Sinatra. Now, all we knew overseas about Frank Sinatra was the women were crazy about him. So our girlfriends, our wives, our sisters, our mothers were nuts about Frank Sinatra. And there were great stories about him in Yank, which was the magazine of record we all read.

So they were torturing you with these stories, I guess, on some level. Well, on some level, I mean, on some level, yes. I mean, there was a great dislike, at the least, for this figure. Oh, and that he was not serving because of a punctured eardrum. Right. And that didn't sound right to guys who were serving and so forth. And we came to this meadow

and Phil Silvers, who we didn't know at all and didn't know his name, came out ostensibly to interview, I mean, or introduce. Yeah. And then he started to pick on three guys who were sweeping up.

Right. And he brought one guy over, and he started to jump on this guy for standing around sweeping up while he was trying to talk, or I forget how they got into it. But then he said, you know this Sinatra

guy you like this Sinatra he didn't know him either he was a GI yeah so he said I suppose you think you could sing and he got the guy to go ah yeah and then he slapped him in the face and said that's you got to go from the chest to the throat to the mouth yeah and he wound up beating the crap out of this guy for singing so poorly and so forth, and then finally said, out of hell with it. And as he and the guy started to walk off, the music hit, and the guy turned around, and he was Sinatra. Yeah. So he had created, that bit had created so much empathy for this poor GI who was getting the shit beat out of him.

And before we knew it, Frank was singing one of the great Frank Sinatra songs, and love was in the air. Really? And what did that tell you? What did that tell you? That told me that if you're going to fool with an Archie Bunker, put him in a position that creates some empathy. So what created more empathy than anything else for me as a kid of the Depression was a man who was concerned about supporting his family. And that was Bunker's constant struggle. Behind everything was a working stiff who had to, for good reason, be concerned about making a living. And you can direct that moment, that awareness to that moment with Frank Sinatra, the realization

that empathy was important. Yes. And when you were at Emerson. And the same empathy I have for my father and continue to call him a rascal. Like you said at the beginning, it's hard. Life is hard.

Life is hard. And when you were at Emerson, like now it's a very popular, you know, a lot of comedians go there and they have a lot of, but at the time you were there, what was it primarily?

It wasn't that long. It was only a few years after it had been called Emerson College of Elocution. It's hard to believe now. And we were about maybe eight guys. All the rest were girls. That was great. Yeah. I never,

ever have complained about that. Yeah. We were about eight, ten guys in the school and a couple, 300 women.

Uh-huh. And I lived 240 Marlboro, is that street? Yeah, I know where that is. Yeah. And mom and pop lawless.

I'll never forget the people who owned the boarding house. It's weird what sticks, huh? It's amazing what sticks. And going back to comedy, the old Howard in Scully Square. Scully Square was- It's a theater. It was a burlesque theater in those years. Well known around the country if you were interested in burlesque theater. In those years, well-known around the country

if you were interested in burlesque. And I saw a lot of the early comics working there, the guys who became great stars, Milton Berle and Red Buttons. You saw them there. And saw them there. I don't remember actually seeing Milton Berle, but it's very possible.

Who do you remember seeing? I remember seeing Red Buttons, but it's very possible. Who do you remember seeing? I remember seeing Red Buttons. I remember seeing Joey Faye. I remember seeing Fat Jack, Fat Jack Leonard. You saw the Ritz brothers? The Ritz brothers. Henry Ritz was as funny as any human being in or out of comedy I have ever, I mean, there was something about him. And there was an overall sadness that he was enveloped in. And his brothers were a setting. It was like he was a jewel in a glorious setting

and his brothers were the setting. And he was... And they sang and danced and and uh and did comedy but all the hilarity rested and tragedy uh on harry rested in harry and you felt that and you feel you and that's something to this mac and i feel it thinking about him and in in that resonate with you. Totally. Because you, I mean, I assume that, you know, some of the stuff that in reading the book and talking to you now and even talking about Archie,

you know, that you have that sadness. We all sort of have that sadness somewhere. And the guys that can't hide it and can integrate it into this sort of tragically funny persona, those are the real gifted comedic performers. Those are where the clowns rest. Yeah, yeah.

There are a couple of clowns a century. Yeah, and who were your clowns? Burt Lahr was a clown. Red Skelton was a clown. Yeah. What's his name, my Sanford and son? Oh, yeah, Red Fox. Red Fox. Red Fox.

Red Fox could walk into a room and tell you your mother just passed out. Yeah. It would be funny. He was phenomenal. I got some of those old party records. Just his whole demeanor. What do you do with it? Like Jackie Gleason, too?

Oh, Jackie Gleason. Yes, Jackie Gleason. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Okay. Gleason too? Oh Jackie Gleason was yes Jackie Gleason yeah yeah all right so okay so now you go to Emerson you get out of college and you try to get out of college I enlist right after a year and a couple of months and then you do really you get shot at you're doing the real thing you're not this is not light service you flew over 30 missions yeah and you got shot at. I got shot at, yes. In the same lifetime, it's hard to believe.

I can't. Came back, and as I mentioned earlier, from standing over this printer. Right, with the public, yeah. In Troja, I got two responses. One was a firm job offer. Yeah. Strangely enough, George Evans was a firm job offer. Strangely enough, George Evans was the guy's name. He was Frank Sinatra's press agent.

Okay. And the second one was for a job interview. I went to the job interview and made the mistake of telling him I had a job offer. And he took advantage of knowing that and made me an offer right then I had to take or not. And so I wound up with George Ross was his name. Did you feel that when you were being a press agent that you enjoyed it? I mean, did it fade?

Well, I didn't realize it. You know, I wrote the humor column in the Weaver High School Lookout. So I was there, but didn't realize it. Right. And then when I came out to California to be a press agent, ran into Ed Simmons, who wanted to be a comedy writer. One night

we wrote something together while our wives went to a movie. When they came home, there were nightclubs in those years. We went out and we sold it for 35, 40 bucks. I love this story. You know, like, obviously, we can't go through the whole book here,

but, like, the idea, like, you know... I'm having too good a time. Why can't we do that? We can. Sure. I don't care. It's fine with me. I got nothing.

I got some coffee. So, but the idea, like, you know, in the book, you go to, you know, you talk about you're marrying your first wife because it sort of felt like you felt like that was the thing to do and you were compelled to do it. You don't know why you did it, but you did it. But I think a lot of people got married for that reason. I think a lot of people did.

It was just what you did. But what was fascinating to me in some of the framing of when you decided to move your wife out to Los Angeles is you didn't, you decided to move you, your, your wife out to, uh, to Los Angeles is you didn't, you wanted to be a press agent, but you got out here and not unlike your father. I mean,

you, you go into a lot of stuff about your father's, uh, you know, he was a hustler and, you know, after, you know,

he made a little money with the 10 percenters. He got, he got into manufacturing appliances with no, no ability to do that at all. Right. And he just was, you know, he,

he, he was a PT Barnum, you know, he got a lot of plates in the air right that was my dad pt barnum was good yeah so you come out here but like at that time the middle class was really sort of developing itself we were we got to california to los angeles yeah uh you know four or five o'clock on a Saturday afternoon. And in those years, still, the L.A. Times came out at night on Saturday, and I went out to get a copy so that I could look in the WANT ads, not the WANT ads, the real estate ads, to find a place to live, which was very hard in those years. So I'm driving along Sunset Boulevard.

I pick up my newspaper. Maybe, I don't recall this, maybe I saw something that took me off of Sunset Boulevard because maybe I could find a place that was going to be advertised the next morning. the next morning. I come down a street, El Centro, in the middle of Hollywood, and come across a theater that's been fashioned from a house, a 99-seat theater, which is below equity,

and a marquee that read, opening tonight, Shaw's Major Barbara. Well, it wasn't that I was the greatest reader in the world at that age, but enough to have fallen absolutely in love with George Bernard Shaw, and especially with Major Barbara, because of arguments that took place in there, which just dazzled me. in there which just dazzled me. And there was a guy sweeping up and I stopped and crossed the street to talk to him. When he heard that I had a wife and child in a motel and had only been here an hour, that is from Connecticut to L.A. in an hour. He was totally interested.

I told him I wanted to be a press agent. That's why I came out here. Well, they had somebody doing that for this little theater, but if I wanted to hang around him, I would meet some people. And I was thrilled with that. And then he says,

if you want to see the show, I have a seat for you. Well, my mind immediately goes to my wife and child in a motel. It was on the other side of the country. Their first moments there. I knew I had to see this show. Yeah. The fates were telling me directly.

I had to call my wife. It was terrible. But I sat down there were three seats in front of me that were empty as the lights faded in walk Alan Mowbray Alan Mowbray was a well known British

character actor very well known and this dame Edith and Charles Chaplin I had noticed in the cast Dame, Edith, and Charles Chaplin. I had noticed in the cast a Sidney Chaplin, which I didn't know, but that turned out to be his son and the reason he was there. But in front of me sits Charles Chaplin.

First night in Hollywood. First moments in Hollywood. The show ends and it was a great, great, great production of it. Wonderful actors. And Mr. Chaplin, and there's nobody that are moved sitting behind Charles Chaplin. And he sits there. No backstage.

So the actors came out, and what was their stage became, they sat down in front of Mr. Chaplin. Yeah. And he got up and told them how terrific the show was and how wonderful he thought they all were. And then he reached a point where he said, I never feel when I enjoy something so much, I feel I have to pay back, and the words are not enough. And so he performed a pantomime. He was a drunk who was trying to mail

a letter across the little stage in a supposed letterbox in a high wind. So he was battling a high wind to get to a letterbox to mail his child's chaplain. So were you like, I've arrived. This is, I can't even believe my luck. And so you went and told your wife. What'd she say? Oh, I couldn't even tell her. I mean, she had no interest in anything.

Horrible. It was not a very attractive thing to do. Right. No, yeah, but worth it in retrospect. But, well, I didn't have to wait for a lot of retrospect. I just had to do it. All right, so you're here, and you're running around with your cousin's husband, Eddie Simons.

Eddie Simons, yeah. And he wanted to be a comedy writer and you wanted to be a press agent. He didn't know how he was going to be a comedy writer. You didn't know how you were going to be a press agent. And you're selling these things. And so then you guys... So we sold this piece of material,

the very first thing we wrote. It was a song, right? A parody to the Sheik of Araby. I can't remember what the hell it was about. $20 was half of what I could make out there in the field selling door-to-door.

That was a big deal. We took an office on Beverly Boulevard at Kenmore over a delicatessen. $6 a month and we started to write in the evenings yeah every night I scratched our fannies a lot and wrote a little yeah and then wrote that piece for Danny Thomas and got lucky that was that was your big break that was a big break. That was a big break. There's a name I used because when I was a kid, I loved the name Merle Robinson. He was a friend of mine.

Yeah. And I loved his name. And I guess in the armies, when I didn't, I was afraid of being gigged by military police or something. Maybe I was drunk. I don't know. I used the name Merle Robinson, and I liked it. So I called. I made sure it was the lunch hour.

Hopefully the agent would be out to lunch, and I got the secretary, and I did. And I said my name was Merle Robinson. I was with the New York Times. I had just spent two days with Danny Thomas. I had two questions. I'm writing the article on the plane. I just spent two days with Danny Thomas. I had two questions. I'm writing the article on the plane. I'll file it when I get there. I have two questions I have to ask.

Anyway, she gave me the number, the home number. I called. He was working, as it happened, with his pianist, looking for a piece of material to do the very next night. Hopefully he could find something in his trunk that the crowd at Cirrus, which was a popular joint at the time, and this was a friar's

event, so all the people would be show business people. They knew his material. Anyway, I said, you don't have to look for something. This is a new piece. It can't be long. I can't learn anything long. This is five minutes, four minutes, whatever.

He said, get over here right away. Well, first of all, he was fascinated at how I got him on the phone, how I got his name. He was impressed. He thought that was funny. I said, we'll be over there before 6 o'clock. He said, it's 1 or 2 or whatever the time it was. You said you were in Hollywood?

I'm only in Beverly Hills. You can be here in 20 minutes. But we hadn't written this thing yet. So I said, I'll get there. So anyway, we got there at 5 or 5.30 or whatever. Yeah. And he did it the next night at Ciro's. And you were there?

And we were in the kitchen looking. I know that kitchen. Yes. Because it's a comedy store now. And I worked there. It's a comedy store. Yes. Yeah, yeah.

I know that room. Do you still do stand-up? Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I was there last week. I worked there all the time. Will you let me know the next time you're there?

Yeah. Oh, sure. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But it's so weird to me because I know at all the time. Will you let me know the next time you're there? Yeah. Oh, sure. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, but it's so weird to me because I know it's Zero's, and I'm sort of obsessed with the history of that place. Yeah. And it's not that much different, you know, than, I mean, structurally. Structurally, it's very similar.

Is it? Yeah. It was such a big deal in those days. I mean, it was coming down at that time, but when I first got here, it was just... Yeah, and so you're sitting there and you're listening to your bit. I'm looking out at the faces laughing. It's killing. And recognizing Alan Ladd and recognizing this one or that one.

Yeah. It was amazing. Oh, and that was it. And what did he pay you? Oh, he told me he was going to give us $3,000 and gave us $1,000. Yeah. And it was always going to, well, I thought we were going to get to $2,000. Yeah.

But he made a big joke, and it was, you know, and it worked. It's doing more good at St. Jude, he would say. And before I could reach him across the room, he would shout it out. Oh, really? As long as he knew him. And it did indeed do more good at St. Jude. Yeah.

So the break came from someone in the room seeing that. David Susskind, a first cousin, was a big shot and didn't even know I was in California. I had no guess he was there. The next morning he asked, or maybe that night, I don't know, he asked Andy Thomas who wrote that material and he didn't begin to think it was the same Norman Lear. And he called and he had us there in two days. We were in New York doing the Jack Haley Ford FORD star review. And Susskind was at MCA?

He was at MCA. When Lou Wasserman and when it was everything that CAA is today. It was called the octopus. Because they had everything. They had everything. And so he flew to New York and you're writing on the Jack Haley show? Jack Haley. Jack Haley, the Tin Man. Yeah.

Mm-hmm. And that was your first gig. Your cousin's husband wanted to be a comedy writer. You didn't know what the hell was happening, and boom, you're a comedy writer. And I'm a comedy writer. And it was a big job. That was the beginning of television, right? You know what was really interesting about it?

I don't remember whether I had this in the book or I thought about it afterwards, but we did the Jack Haley Ford Star Review. So right after the first show, it was the first time anybody had ever heard of us. Yeah. And the show did well. And all the other comedy writers were in radio. So we were TV comedy writers. And that was like a big bumper sticker.

Right, the new guys. We were the guys, because we were TV comedy writers. Nobody knew about TV. So you're saying all the old guard was radio. It was just a shift of the medium. Right. And then you guys- And suddenly we're this brazen, brash, new television writers. Wow.

Who writes television? Simmons and Lear. You lucked out. Oh, my God. Luck has played a big part in my life. And then you go to is that when Jerry Lewis took a liking to you? Yes. It seemed very specific that Jerry Lewis was

sort of a disconcerting gentleman in a way. Well he became I think he was there could not have been anybody in the history of the world that was funnier than Jerry when he, at the very beginning, I think I say in there, you know, I remember afternoons in his playhouse, just the three of us, Simmons and I and Jerry Lewis, and we'd throw suggestions at him. And he'd be the bartender, and then he'd be the bartender with an Italian accent, with an Italian accent and a bunion. He just kept throwing it and he'd be the bartender and then he'd be the bartender with an Italian accent with an Italian accent

and a bunion he just kept throwing it and he'd do it yeah and he did and he was I mean he was you laughed your ass off and then

oh my god how he laughed and he added time to my life yeah I'm I'm 90 Jerry is a good reason why I'm 92 and sitting here

yeah and so is everybody else that made me laugh I feel that way about laughter that reason why I'm 92 and sitting here. Yeah. And so is everybody else that made me laugh. I feel that way about laughter. That's why I got to see you at the comedy show. Yeah, you come down. So what was that weird story that when Jerry had you in his dressing room? No, it wasn't his dressing room.

It was a hotel room. It was his birthday. We were going out to dinner. We knocked on the door, and he says, come in. And we walked in, and he's lighting a candle that's, you know, attached to an erection and singing happy birthday to the greatest thing that ever happened to him or something. Oh, my God.

I mean, it was as funny as anything I'll ever see. I can't believe it. All right, so you write for Martin & Lewis for a few years, but you don't know why you were fired, it seems. Do you? I don't know, because just before we were fired, they took out a, or Jerry did these things, took out a full-page ad in Variety, you know, praising us.

So you have no idea. You never got closure on that. No. But after that, you know, you did a series of Variety shows. Did the Martha Ray show, did George Goebel. I started to direct as well as write. You talk a lot about this guy, Nat Hyken. Right.

What was the great thing about Nat Hyken? He was just a great producer and writer. He did Bilko. And Bilko was as funny as any show ever. He was just great. He did the Martha Ray show. I followed him. Yeah.

And I was following a master. What did you learn from him? I didn't learn from him because I didn't know him. Yeah. But I learned from his work. Yeah. What was it, essentially? Funny.

Yeah. I mean, he didn't write to say anything. Yeah. He wrote, you know, out of the seriousness of my childhood, I cared to get the laughs out of things or subjects that mattered. You know, there's nobody funnier. There isn't a character funnier than Bilko. Yeah. And he didn't have anything on his mind more than funny well when you say that though because i know that you talked a little bit about it with the with the way jerry

lewis handled a bit what were those things essentially i mean i know what slapstick is and i know what going for the laugh is but what was it that when you would see a bit and you would say you know it's it's shallow or it's empty. What were you looking for when you say you were writing about things? Well, it wasn't... I mean, there's nothing that Hyken did that was shallow. Right. I mean, funny is funny is funny is funny. Right.

That he did it with funny characters, with Bilko and the two guys that he bossed around. And Shallow, for me, is father knows best. It wasn't as funny as Bilko. I mean, I can't remember who did it. But they weren't trying to bring an audience to its knees laughing. They weren't looking for giant, for belly laughs. Hyken was looking for belly laughs.

Yeah. And he got them. Yeah. And I was looking for belly laughs. We were on serious subjects, but the characters wanted to be as funny as hell, and we were looking for big laughs. I also happened to notice out of my own life that things were funnier when something serious was going on.

If you were getting laughs out of a serious situation, they were bigger laughs or more rewarding laughs. Sure. Because people were caring. Yeah. Is that what you sort of noticed in Major Barber with the arguing? I mean, was there, because I don't know.

Major Barber was an exercise in wit solely, not heart. Yeah. He wrote, he had a series, there was a little book of his spiritual messages. There you find heart and soul. there was a little book of his spiritual messages. There you find Heart and Soul.

The rest of him was all wit. Okay. Mind over matter. So when you think about who you were at that time, when you were writing for Martha Ray and thinking about Nat Hyken and developing these chops of pushing, what you're saying is you thought that the risk for you or your particular craft

and what you brought to comedy was that you could take these serious subject matters and if you played them with heart and empathy and if the characters were grounded, you could get those belly laughs. Yes. You didn't have to sell it short. Who was the guy that really inspired you to do that?

I know you talk about Fred Allen a bit as being a great influence on you. Right. But it seems to me that some of the... I think it's my own life. I mean, you know, when you're nine years old and your father is hauled off to prison and your mother is selling his red leather chair,

which mattered so much to you, and somebody puts his hand on your shoulder and says, uh-huh, you're the man of the house now I mean can you say fucking sure that's fucking funny and and I somehow understood that

and I mean I grew up with that it had to be funny you know what I mean or else the pain would crush you I grew up with that. Right. It had to be funny. Yes. You know what I mean? Or else the pain would crush you. And I'm looking into the eyes of an absolute fool.

Right. Right. So you did like a series of variety shows and musical shows. I mean, you were a guy. I'm still a guy. I know. Nothing has changed. But you were busy as hell making television.

Yes. At that time. And then we were doing the Martha Ray Show, and a fellow by the name of Philly Sharp, another writer, came to visit us. And he was in the middle of the divorce as I was. And I asked him how things were going and he said, good. I mean, I was having a lot of trouble

in my divorce settlement and he wasn't. And I said, how come? You have four kids, I only have one. One, yeah. He said, all she wants is my Joanan davis reruns and he had started the show and created a show with joan davis who was worth a good deal of money and that's all she wanted and it was over and out yeah and so i i paid more attention to i thinking about i've got

to do a situation comedy because that's the only way I'm going to own something. You didn't own anything doing live television, but you did own something creating a show, a situation comedy. So in that mood from that moment, when I read about Till Death Hustle Apart, the British show, which was about a father and son or son-in-law fighting over, I mean, one bigoted.

That was, I lived through that. I knew that. Yeah. And I wondered, how did I not think of that before? So that's how that happened. With All in the Family. With All in the Family. That became All in the Family for me.

Yeah, but in between there, you partnered up with Bud Yorkin. You wrote movies. You were on the Paramount lot. You did Come Blow Your Horn with Frank Sinatra. Did you ever mention Frank Sinatra that you saw him in Foggia? I'm sure I did. I just mentioned to his daughter, Nancy.

About that? About this, yeah. And, you know, there is the XM, the Frank Sinatra station. After the holidays, I'm going to do, there's going to be a Frank Sinatra, Norman Lear, XM something. Oh, yeah? You're going to talk about it? Yeah.

I'm going to tell these stories. Did you remain friends? Yes, yes. I was at his 65th or 70th birthday in Palm Springs. I adored him. I knew nothing but good stories about him. When did you start developing a well-informed social conscience? I think it was, I'm pretty sure it was always there. I mean, the very first Martin Lewis sketch, I was distressed at the end of that show because Jerry had carried on out of the script.

Right. The audience roared. Right. It was hilarious. He couldn't help himself. But that sketch caused a big stir weeks later. How so? Because it was about something.

Right. At that time, motion picture industry was afraid of television. That was a sketch about television putting movies out of business. Yes, putting movies out of business. Yes, putting movies out of business. And it caused the movie industry to... The movie industry

caused Martin and Lewis to take out an ad apologizing. So our show, our sketch, was very effective in the way I wished it to be effective.

Provocative. Yes, provocative. Shit-starting. Yes. Yeah. And I didn't, I mean, I'm only mentioning it to indicate that it's always been there. Right, right. Some kind of a social conscience.

Right, and sort of pushing buttons and showing hypocrisy and kind of holding the mirror up. Yeah. buttons and showing hypocrisy and kind of holding the mirror up. Yeah. Because it's interesting when you say, as I hear those words, I think about my dad. And that's another way of looking at it. I never looked at it that way, but how hypocritical to be the guy who was going to set the whistling teapot industry on fire. Right.

And bullshitting and lying and stealing to get there. Yeah, right. Yeah, I mean, do you... So you had to live with that hypocrisy. You had to live within you. Yes, yes, yes.

Oh, God. You know, the longer you live, the clearer things become. Yeah, there's new information. If you're just focused on it. You never thought about it that way? No. I mean, I'm racking focus as we speak and I'm learning. Yeah, well, that's interesting. Because you're very aware in the book all the way through that he was just probably bullshitting you again.

That you couldn't depend on anything he was saying. Because either he didn't show up or he didn't make good on his word. And it was just the way it was. And he might have been lying. There's a great relationship from my from my father to the america we're living i see it i see it now like you want his love yet you you know there's also the pushback yeah which is like i want your love but you might not have that to give me and also you're full of shit i talked to my wife uh who's in new york right now yeah and uh just before coming here, she said, Christmas is everywhere in New York.

Yeah. The lights. Yeah. And I thought immediately, it just gets earlier and earlier and Christmas gets more commercial and we lose more citizens and gain more consumers every day.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it was interesting though because you sort of like, there's a couple points in the book where you kind of throw these asides I thought were very profound. In being aware when you're hustling these photo

albums and doing these other things as furniture that this was the new middle class. And also you talked about driving the car and the pride in cars. There was a lot of stuff in there about cars and how we lost that. That once the manufacturing base of automobiles left, that something was taken from America. Because they're in there.

These little pieces that kind of struck me. But nothing was taken in terms of the cars. There was a time when the Volkswagen was coming in and followed by the small Japanese cars. And the less, as Americans gobbled them, the lesson was clear to the American motor car industry, make smaller cars. But I wish I could find it. I've tried.

But I remember an ad where one of the major companies, Chrysler or Ford or General Motors, was advertising. They were making a small car, but it was the largest of them. You can't find that one? Oh, I know I saw that ad somewhere. All right, so, okay, let's get into it so we don't we you can get home and go sleep at some point or we'll be here all night so you you you take you you took the format of the british show which was loaded yes that you know you knew right away that this this tension between you know a bigoted you know a working class father figure right with this uh

with this son-in-law was going to be something. And you could put an American template to that. So what is the process? Did you have to buy the rights to that or you didn't? I didn't have to, but I did. Oh, okay. I mean, I thought I had to at the time, but I didn't have to.

Because I did an entirely different show based on that idea. Sure. So how do you cast it? I know you had a relationship with Rob Reiner, which is fascinating to me. I made it three times. And so it was two different young people each time. Rob was, I thought, too young. And so I made it twice before. Same script.

Pilots. With Carol. Yes. With Carol O'Connor and Gene Stapleton for ABC, a different network. They dropped it after two pilots, and then CBS came along. In terms of the casting, it was a great casting director, Marion Doherty, that introduced me to Gene Stapleton, and Doherty that introduced me to Gene Stapleton. And I think, I'm pretty sure, was responsible for my meeting weeks later in California. I met Gene Stapleton in New York, met Carol O'Connor in Los Angeles. I was coming out to Los Angeles to interview actors

when I had the thought that maybe Mickey Rooney could play the role. Oof, yeah. So I called, his manager's name was Red Doff. Yeah. And I called Red Doff.

Yeah. And he said, wait a minute, you got an idea? He's right here. He happens to be in my office. Yeah. And let me put him on. I said, no, no, don't an idea? He's right here. He happens to be in my office. And let me put him on.

I said, no, no, don't put him on. I'm coming out there anyway. I'd like to meet with him. I want to tell him about the character. No, he really, I'd never met Mickey Rooney. He didn't know me at all. Maybe he knew of me, but he didn't know me. And he had to get on the phone. So he gets on the phone.

He spoke of himself in the third person. Hey, you got an idea? Hi, Norm. You got an idea for the Mick? Let me hear it. I said, Mickey, I'm coming out there in a couple of days. I'd love to meet with you. I have to tell you about the character.

It doesn't translate easily. You got an idea for the mag, tell him. It's easy. I'll understand, whatever. I had to tell him. So I said, well, he's a bigot. He will say Spade and Hebe and Coon and

so forth. And he said, hold it. He said, Norm, they're going to kill you. They're going to shoot you dead in the streets. You want to do a show with the Mick? Listen to this. Vietnam vet, short, blind, large dog. And I roared.

You roared, right? You laughed right in his face? We never met to talk about it. So now were you a fan of Lenny Bruce? Oh my God, yes. Yeah? Lenny Bruce, yes, of course. How could I not be a fan of Lenny Bruce? Yes, of course. Right.

How could I not be a fan of Lenny Bruce? Did you ever see him? I did see him. I saw him on the Sunset Strip on the second floor. What the hell was the name of that club? I did see him several times. Yeah? And was it electric?

And I did come to know him a little bit. Oh, he was very electric. Yeah. You got to know him a little bit? I got to know him a little bit. I mean, enough to know him a little bit. Oh, he was very electric. Yeah. You got to know him a little bit? I got to know him a little bit. I mean, enough to know him. Was there a sense that he was doing something important? Well, there

was every sense. For me, of course, and for his audience. I mean, the people who came to see Lenny Bruce knew this didn't exist anywhere else until Mort Sahl came along. Right, right. And he tamed it a little bit.

Well, yeah, Lenny Bruce was further out there. Yeah, he would go way out there, huh? Yeah. I mean, you listen to that stuff, some of that stuff now, and it's almost like you really got to put it together because this stream of consciousness, you didn't know if it was going to come back around.

It's fascinating. Yeah. He was the white Dave Chappelle. Yeah. Dave will be very happy to hear that. All right. So you cast the show and it doesn't do well out of the gate. It didn't do well out of the gate. It was, as a matter of fact, if it had not gone on in January at midterm, mid season, it might not have made it. It went on in January. It struggled.

But then the other shows, there were only three networks. It's hard to believe now. Do you miss that? There was a time when there were only three networks. Do you miss that? Do you think it was a more effective way to create a social dialogue? I always ask people about that who remember that like it seemed to me that now everything is so fractured and in some ways it's good that

everyone can make choices but it seemed like the cultural dialogue was more focused when it was a more intimate business well it's you know america has a tendency to go over the top all the time. I mean, we just go over the top. When I saw To Death There Was Part, the antecedent to All in the Family, they had made eight shows. That was it. Yeah, the British only do a couple. That was it, the only eight shows. Yeah.

We had to do 24 or 26 shows the first year. Yeah, it's still like that in Britain. Two seasons. Yes. I mean, there's something a lot more sensible and cultivated about that. I don't know. So when did you know that it was picking up traction, that it was making a difference,

that you were showing something that had never been seen before? Did you know that going in, that you were doing something? No, no. I think the show could have been over before. I mean, I was hearing these things or reading these things. Yeah. But we were working our asses off.

Yeah. Supporting families, making a living, doing, you know, I didn't even know I was doing so well for years. But did you know it was different than anything anyone had seen before? Well, I saw and heard that enough. It didn't always seem that different to us

because we sat around a table. I had asked everybody to read a couple of newspapers, New York Times as well as the LA Times, later on the Wall Street Journal also, and pay attention to our kids and those things that were impacting our children, our lives as a family, the economy and so forth. And we came in and shared,

ooh, somebody saw a story about hypertension in black males. It was higher than in whites, noticeably. hypertension in black males, it was higher than in whites, noticeably. And it's a hell of an idea for, you know, a seed of a story for good times. Yeah. And that's kind of the way we worked. So it didn't honestly seem so different.

So at that time, but with All in the Family, you didn't feel like that seemed different either? I saw that. But working on it, we were scraping the barrels of our experience. So at one time, All in the Family, Sanford and Son Mod, and Good Times, and The Jeffersons. And Mary Hartman, Mary Hartman. And One Day at a Time were all on the air at the same time. Yeah.

And those were all your shows. They were all our shows they were all our shows tandem tat i mean this we you know we were a big group of people now it's not one guy no i know one guy kicked the ball to start but you know a lot of people kicking the ball when uh in the time you're talking about but you were creating i had a a Jerry Parenteau in my life who made a business out of this. Right. But you created on the Family Sanford and Son mod Good Times.

Those were the seeds of my... Yeah. Yeah. Right. And now, you know, Sanford and Son as a show and... Sanford and Son, I had very little to do with creatively. Okay.

Sanford and Son, I'll take credit with Bud for falling in love with... Red Fox love with Red Fox in Las Vegas, worrying about whether he could ever clean up his act enough to do a show. I'll take full credit for the part I own for that. But it was geographically impossible for me to be involved with it because it was done at NBC in the Valley. Yeah. We were at CBS with all the other shows.

Right. And a story I love to tell is we sold, I'll take credit for that too, with Bud, for Sanford and Son, we sold it in the CBS building on Beverly Drive to NBC because I couldn't get anybody at CBS to come and look at our rehearsal. It was rehearsing. Fred and Jamond were rehearsing two little rehearsal halls away. And I was trying to get Fred Silverman or one of the other guys to come down and see it. And why wouldn't they? And they were in New York or they otherwise were busy or whatever. And finally, I called NBC.

And they were at lunch in Beverly Hills. On the way back, they passed CBS, so they stopped. And almost like hooded figures, you know. Yeah, yeah. I mean, the hat brims down or whatever. But they saw it and bought it, you know, within a day. And that was sort of like the same sort of tension was generational. Generational tension, yeah. And with Maude. But it was Bud and writers who really got that show going. I did not. And Maude was your show show going. It's funny.

And Maude was your show. And Maude, yes. And that type of female character had not really been seen in the modern television world. No. And certainly with the Jeffersons and Good Times, that representation of black families had not been seen. But there's two different ones. There had not been a black family on the tube, yeah. And did you know that going in?

Was there resistance? There was no resistance to that. What happened was we had Esther Roll as Florida on Maud. Yeah. And people loved her. And we did shows that deliberately showed her stuff. Yeah. And 360 degrees of Esther Rolle.

When I knew there was a show there, we introduced her husband and cast him as John Amos. So at some point, they saw the network, that is, saw in what I call the Bush Leagues in a smaller role on a big show, their show, they saw this couple now. Yeah. And it was easy to see there was a show in them. You know, I interviewed Jimmy Walker. Yes. I love Jimmy Walker. And he was very damn funny.

Yeah. His problem was what we were talking about before 26 shows you know if the shows had been six shows or eight shows dynamite would not have condemned him right uh you know as it turned out to do years later it just became that yes uh-huh now what was it when you did uh Hartman, Mary Hartman? I remember that show. I was young, but I remember it being very intense. What was the pitch on that?

What was the angle? Well, that was the only show I can remember where beginning, middle, and end, what it was about was, you know, consumed it. It was about, we've talked about it, it was the impact of the media on an average housewife. Of course, overstated, to make its point, and for comedy. But on the very first episode, I'm fond of saying and thinking about it. On the very first episode, a family of five, their two goats and eight chickens were killed, slaughtered, just around the corner. And you heard the sirens telling that story. And when she learned about it, she was consumed by

the waxy yellow buildup on her floor. And she's looking at the product in her hand. And all she could think about was the can promised that there would be no waxy yellow buildup. So there couldn't be. But still, she was seeing it. Okay, that's the first show. Towards the end of the series, now this was five nights a week. Mary Hartman was on 11 o'clock at night in most cities at five nights a week. So after several hundred episodes, she's on the David Susskind show.

Literally, he's in the series. Sitting, she's going to be the mother of the year of some organization. And so she's being quer be the mother of the year of some organization. And so she's being queried by three media types, psychologists, about what makes her the mother of the year. And they drive her insane. It's 27 minutes of whatever the length of that show was. And she goes insane.

It's one of the great pieces of acting in the history of television, I think. And a scene that follows shortly thereafter in another episode, she's institutionalized, and she's looking at television, and somebody adjusts the television set, and she says, is that what I think it is? And the nurse says, yes, Mary, it is. And she said, oh my God, I can't believe it. She goes very slowly. And as she's talking, other patients, inmates of this institution are gathered around her. And they're all staring straight ahead into a TV set set as she says, I can't believe that I,

Mary Hartman, after all this time, am finally a member of a Nielsen family. Go to black. Do you think that was the most cutting satire that you created? Nothing more cutting. If it wasn't the most cutting, One Day at a Time, many years later, was Savage, where DC was concerned. I think it was the first

of the Savage satires on Washington politics. But Mary Hartman, Florida ceiling, wall to wall, was... That was it it I adored it and you had a profound influence on you know I know that you have a relationship with Matt and Trey from South Park

they have a tremendous amount of respect for your balls well they they wanted to do Archie and they decided. I saw them on 60 Minutes, I think, the first time I heard them say this. Then they said it to me. On South Park.

Yeah, there was an Archie Bunker, so they did a kid. And that's how Cartman came about. From Archie. I couldn't be prouder of anything, yeah. Because I love South Park. So consistent. And I love Trey. Yeah.

And Matt. Brilliant stuff. I mean, and it always hits. I mean, they find the juice. Brilliant. And so does Seth on Family Guy. Love these guys. I forgot to ask you about your relationship with the movie Spinal Tap.

Oh, well, Rob Reiner, after all... Oh, you knew when he was a kid. I knew Rob Reiner when he was five years old. He's the same age as my daughter Ellen, my oldest daughter. And they were... I'll never forget him playing jacks with my daughter, bouncing a ball and picking up the jacks. What was unforgettable about him? What was unforgettable was the way he was talking to Ellen to say, that's not the way you pick up the ball, and then you drop the jacks.

And he sounded like all the Jewish comics his father attracted and was one of. At five. At five, six, yeah. We spent two summers, one following the other, at Fire Island in summer. We had summer houses near each other. So you had a relationship his whole life.

So all his life, yeah. we had summer houses near each other. So you had a relationship his whole life. So all his life, yeah. So anyway, Spinal Tap, he had eight pages, ten pages or whatever, because it was largely improvised. Yeah. And it was wonderful. And we had just, Parencio had just bought Embassy,

and we were now in the picture business, and so we made that film. And what was the conversation, though? The conversation was nobody wanted to make it, but I knew Rob, and I knew what he had in mind, and I wish I could remember now the names of the characters, because Derek Smalls was in it. Just the names of the characters made me laugh. Oh, yeah?

And it turned out to be a legendary movie. Yes. Now, obviously, you've done a lot of other things. I don't want to keep you here all night. I want to make sure I... Like, there's stuff in your book. I am enjoying the book immensely. I'd love to talk about Lee J. Cobb.

I'd love to talk about... I mean, you've had several lives. You've got how many kids? kids six six one with the first wife to it did second three with this one I just met one you just have my age yeah but thank God you got all your marbles I hope so I'll ever ask your viewers or in listeners if the man sounded like he had all his marbles. And also this great stuff you do. I mean, what was your compassion about the Constitution? Declaration.

The Declaration of Independence, sorry. Well, the Constitution to the whole. But you own a copy of it, and you toured it. And I know in the book you talk about what a lot of Jews of your generation talk about. Even though you weren't that religious a Jew, the feeling of otherness and the feeling of having to pass or having to integrate and feeling that sort of like

not so veiled anti-Semitism that I think existed more so now that the Declaration of Independence and these documents in terms of freedom of speech and defining people's civil rights is very important to you on a personal level. And you toured with it. I toured 50 states with it.

And with great, great cooperation. I mean, Home Depot came up with $15 million to endorse and support the tour. The Postal Service gave me a 16-wheeler and a driver for two years so that the exhibition that was put together that was designed by David Rockwell, great architect, which could be small or large, had a home that it traveled in. had a home that it traveled in. And whether it was in a huge exhibition space or a small one, you know, I can't believe the cooperation I had. I did a version of America the Beautiful with 50 country western stars

that was fabulous. And what was in your heart? What was your intention? The intention was to share the words that are there that guarantee our equality under the law. It isn't like people are enjoying all people, equality under the law. We still have a long way to go. But that is the American promise. But that is the American promise.

And the words that make that promise are golden. And, I mean, interesting for me and my story as we've, you know, as I've spent too much time talking about me, everything started with my relationship with my father, and it's interesting to me that our country had fathers, you know, and the documents were written by the founding fathers. All of that is a circle for me. It all clicks. Do you feel like you have, you know, like some closure around this father thing at this point? Yes.

Not that I'm learning. I learned in this conversation that I didn't work my ass off to be that father since I was in that position. But I did. I know I did, but I did it on the shows. Oh, interesting. I did it on the shows.

They were my children also. And I've wondered how much more I have to learn about what the word father meant to me. And how much I have to learn about, you know, although a lot of time I wasted not being the best father I could be. Well, you got a third chance. I'm working on it. Yeah, the search for a good father within you. Another 92 years, I may have it.

You know, I do want to thank you, and I want to thank you for this great book. I don't read a lot of the books I get. I'm so glad you're reading this, and I'm so glad it holds your interest, and I'm so glad to have spent this time. And many years to come. I wish you many more years. Thank you. I'll spend them in this garage. All right, I'm going to to have spent this time. And many years to come. I wish you many more years.

Thank you. I'll spend them in this garage. All right, I'm going to go in the house. You can stay here. That's it. That's our show. What an amazing man. What a great conversation that was.

No guitar today. I'll listen to the Sire Relief. Some of you bastards are doing it. I know. I know. But some of you are going to miss it. So I need time to need time to write some more compositions for my guitar. Go to WTF pod.com for all your WTF

needs. We restocked the store for Christmas. Congratulations to those of you who got your Brian Jones mugs. He can only do 50 at a time. I'm sorry. What can I tell you? Oh, my God. I'm still in Florida. I'm starting to sweat up here.

I'm in this little room on a twin mattress. I can't remember the last time I slept on a twin mattress. I got to stay away. There's still stuffing left. There's still gravy left. There's still mashed potatoes left. There's still one slice of pumpkin pie. There's cranberry sauce I made left. There's some rye bread. There's still some chopped liver left. There's some mashed potatoes left. There's still one slice of pumpkin pie. There's cranberry sauce I made left.

There's some rye bread. There's still some chopped liver left. There's some turkey. Oh, shit. You know what that means? Toasted rye bread, chopped liver, turkey, and cranberry sauce sandwich. Yeah, alright. Judge if you want. Those of you who are going like, ew, fine. But those of you who know, know

that that's the greatest fucking sandwich in the world. Right? Oh, my God. I couldn't. Even my run didn't work out sandwich in the world, right? Oh my God, I couldn't, even my run didn't work out because I think that like, if you run, I ran for four miles and if you run, you know, what happens is whatever's just water weight that drips off. And then what, what happens is it actually the first run after Thanksgiving, it actually sets the fat. It sets it, doesn't burn it off, just burns off the water and then sets the fat. It sets it. It doesn't burn it off. It just burns off the water and then sets the fat. Solid.

It solidifies the fat. That's where I'm at. You know what's happening for me when I get home. Kale smoothies and Weight Watchers. But don't tell anybody because I'm not heavy and I know I'm not heavy.

I know it pisses some of you off but I'm going to go on Weight Watchers for a little while. And I'm going to have to somehow rid myself of this New York accent. That should take a couple of days. I mean, I'll just hang out with some Latino people and

see if I can pick that one up. Maybe Chinese. I don't know. You know, the world is my oyster. Boomer lives! lives.