WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 556 - Chrissie Hynde

Episode Date: December 3, 2014

Chrissie Hynde was just an unabashed rock and roll music fan from the Midwest before a journey to England turned her into a genuine rock star and the face of The Pretenders. Chrissie tells Marc about her early influences, including biker culture, underground comics and FM disc jockeys. Plus, she explains why The Pretenders wouldn't have happened without Lemmy. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5pm in Rock City at TorontoRock.com

Lock the gates! Alright, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fucking ears? What the fuck sticks? What the fucksters? What the fuckaholics?

What the fuckadelics? How are you? Hi. Hi, it's Mark Maron. I'm losing my mind. Chrissy Hind is on the show today. I had a lovely chat, an engaged and intense chat with Chrissy Hynde that you will hear momentarily. Obviously, she's from the band The Pretenders and now is doing some of those much-loved songs on the road a bit, but also touring on her new album, Stockholm.

It's her first solo album. It was released in the summer. It's a great record. Stockholm. It's her first solo album. It was released in the summer. It's a great record. And you can see her actually live here in Los Angeles this Saturday at the Pantages.

I may be there. I may be there. Oh, my God. I'm not great. Things are not... I'll be honest with you what's happening. I didn't do any coffee today. And I did not eat any nicotine today. And the day I'm recording this, it's well into the afternoon. Okay.

I know I don't want to shatter your idea that we're all, you know, walking together or exercising together and that this is happening in real time, but it's two 30 the day I'm recording this, which is yesterday. but it's 2.30 the day I'm recording this, which is yesterday. And every cell in my body is wondering what the fuck is happening. Every cell is like, we're not used to operating without the juice. Can we have some of this stuff? Can we have some of the chemical stuff?

Where does that stuff usually eat? Where's both of those compounds we're shutting down man that's every cell in my body it's also going like all right you're gonna fuck with us we're gonna fuck with you that's the other side of the cellular conversation yeah keep this up keep it up sure keep denying us what we want and we're gonna make you very aggravated and perhaps make somebody you love cry. That's what we're going to do. We're going to get together on a cellular level all throughout your body, including your brain. And we're going to seek out your loved ones and make them cry using you as a vessel. If you deny us this nicotine and caffeine, you fuck. So that's what's going on with me.

I'm having tea. I'm having tea. It's interesting when you want to do the addicting thing. Like I was getting prepared to do this and talk to you, and my body was crawling, which is crawling with the need to take, like right now, I'm like, why isn't there one in my mouth?

It's so fascinating. Fucking addiction. Because I'm strung out on that shit, dude. I mean, I don't even want to really think about how much of those nicotine lozenges I'm doing. It's a lot. So my body is screaming. Screaming for some relief. And that's what's going on in my body.

And it's very hard for me to keep thoughts together. Which is not great for this. Not great for radio. Please, Mark. Just give us a fucking nicotine lozenge for god's sakes man what are you trying to prove go make some coffee and get a lozenge in your mouth what the fuck captain what who's in charge of this vessel feed us sorry that was my uh that was the leader of my cells who will speak through me occasionally oh please

please we're gonna do something stupid we're gonna do something stupid man if you look okay you see this little cell I'm gonna kill it if you don't get us what we need please please mark one nicotine.

Just do one. Just do one. You can do one, man. You can just do one. Just have a half. Just have a half. And that'll be it. That'll be it.

Just do a half. And then I'll be good. Well, I'll be good in here. Well, I'll be good with just a half, right? Right, you guys? Just a half. Yep. Everyone's nodding yes.

Just give us a half. I can't do it. I got to go for a day without it why you fuck come on man come on just relax let's just go through a day but then it's gonna be everything's gonna be normal and then it's just like what what happens when we want to feel good we just sort of like oh how can we make ourselves feel good? And we just kind of go like, I guess nothing. I guess no way. Please relax.

If we could just get through three days, I think we'll all feel more comfortable. But who wants that? I want to feel juiced now. I want to feel jacked. I want to feel like we're engaged in the world and relaxed at the same time. Just do a half. Just do a half. Just do a half.

I'm not. I'm not doing it. I'm not doing it. I'm not doing it. Can you relax? I'm going to do an advertisement now. No! Just give us a quarter! Please.

Please. So I'm still recovering from Thanksgiving. I think you should know that. I'm not sure it's all out of me. I'm not even sure it's all out of me. I was on Conan last night, or the night before last. I'm sorry I didn't let you know. I forgot to my mother know i forgot it was on my agenda i forgot it was part

of the plan you can go watch it i talked a little bit you know i did my i did jokes there's some stuff there you guys probably haven't heard but i i'm sorry i'm sorry friends that i did not alert you maybe if you were eating nicotine lozenges right now you would be a normal person that you could talk like a person to your fans and listeners just give us one i can't do it i can't do it you fuck come on i'm uncomfortable and i'm not enjoying it all right just just relax We'll get through this. So what's been going on since Thanksgiving? Well, we had a little tragedy here at the house.

And I feel like you're a little out of the loop with that, too. There was a cat coming around years ago. A brown and white cat. Who cares? Just one lozenge. Why are you doing this? It doesn't make any sense. Can't we just live our lives like we used to? Just one lozenge.

You're just going to have to excuse him. So there was this cat coming around. This cat came around maybe in and out for about a decade, but never hung around that often. But I'd see it occasionally. It's a brown and white cat. It showed up at the house on the deck probably about, I don't know, maybe two weeks ago. And it did not look well.

But I didn't know what to do with it. It was eating. I was feeding it. But it didn't look well. And this is a wild cat. And then I started to realize, well, it's dying. It seems to be dying. I don't know if it's old.

I don't know if it has the AIDS, the feline AIDS. But it was beyond help. It was emaciated. It was having trouble breathing. But it was calm, and I was feeding it. But there was no way I could trap it because it wasn't eating enough to get him into a cage. And I couldn't grab it. So, you know, I just kept feeding it and giving it water and treating it as well as I could trap it because it wasn't eating enough to get him into a cage and I couldn't grab it. So, you know, I just kept feeding it and giving it water and treating it as well as I could.

And, um, in hopes that it might turn around in over the course of about a week or so, I noticed that like he didn't have really any teeth and he was not able to really breathe that well, but I just kept giving him food and sometimes he'd eat it but he passed away when I was in Florida and my friend Sarah who was watching my house had to deal with that but said he died very peacefully but it's so sad when things die if you had a nicotine lozenge right now you could deal with grief

nothing would matter please stop so we lost that guy but my guys everything's pretty good at the house but there's a there's sort of a cloud of loss around he was under the house is where he was living under the house riding out uh the last week or so of his life oh sad sad oh god yeah i want it Stop, stop, stop. Pull it together. Don't feed that voice. So, um, yeah, a little post-mortem. Is that what we call it for Thanksgiving? Things went well, but I was ready to leave. I was certainly ready to leave. And, uh, as I said, I'm not sure it's all out of me. So I've been, I've been doing,

I've been scaling. I've been doing the healthy thing. I've been on a cereal cleanse. That's where you get many cereals, bran buds, bran flakes, puffins, perhaps. And you just eat that for two or three days until your colon is spick and span. That's my theory. I've never heard of anyone talk about the cereal cleanse, but certainly I encourage it. Cereal cleanse. Maybe I invented it. I had a great time talking to Chrissy Hine. We did start out talking about S. Clay Wilson, who we are both a fan of and who has, you know, hit some hard times physically. I think I told you about S. Clay Wilson, the website, sclaywilsontrust.com, because he does need some help and chrissy hind is right there

on the front of it talking to s clay she loves him so that's what we started talking about that me and chrissy if you weren't clear who he was he's a one of the great um one of the great dark wizards of the underground uh comic art one of the originals checker demon baby yeah so so you're gonna have to forgive me uh my scatteredness because uh but i think you know if i get through these few days i'm gonna really level off oh my god you're what a bore jesus christ do everyone a favor just have a nicotine lozenge you're putting me to sleep and I'm inside of you. Oh, God, Mr. Excuses. Just give us the drugs, you fuck.

Okay. All right. That's enough of that guy. No, it's not. All right, stop. All right, look, I got to talk to Chrissy Hine. And let's just keep it together. All right, let's now go to my conversation with Chrissy Hine.

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Along with your favorite restaurant food, alcohol, and other everyday essentials. Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth

at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m in rock city at torontorock.com do i need headphones no not if you don't want. I mean, it's not a requirement unless you want them. Well, why would I want them? Some people can regulate their voice better.

Oh, should I do that? Nah, just pull the mic into your face and I think you'll be fine. Some people know how to talk. I don't know how to talk. But you don't have to wear them if you just keep the mic close to your face. Do most people use them? Yeah, a lot of people do. But you don't have to. You sound good.

Most people? I'll let you know if you're fading. Okay, I mean. But you don't have to. You sound good. Most people? I'll let you know if you're fading. Okay, I mean, generally I won't use them for anything if I don't have to. You're good. Okay. I don't need my glasses either, do I? No, you don't need... Okay.

It is an honor to meet you, Chrissy Hynde. Thank you. Likewise. Here's the weird thing. As I was listening to the new record, and on the song... Which song was it? Adding the Blue? You brought up S. Clay Wilson. Oh, yeah. I, uh, here's the weird thing is I was listening to the new record and on the song, which song was it? Um, adding the blue. You brought up S. Clay Wilson.

Oh yeah. How much did you love S. Clay Wilson? A whole lot. Right? Yeah. When did, when you first saw S. Clay Wilson, didn't it blow your fucking mind? Yeah. Yeah.

In fact, my nickname was Bernice at one point. Oh, for, for the character? Yeah. Yeah. The one that got the cum fix who had the penis tattoo on her arm. The wish I had one tattoo. When was the first time you saw that guy's stuff? Oh, you know, Zap Comics.

And then I was doing a show, obviously, many years after that, 30 years after, somewhere in San Francisco. And it was Valentine's Day, a radio show. So I said, oh, ask Clay Wilson, won't you be my Valentine? And I think someone that worked with him told him that. So then he, you know,

sent me a message. So of course I was thrilled. Yeah, did he send you a little checkered demon with the message? He sent me some comic books and stuff. Really?

Yeah, and then I've seen him when I've gone out there. He's come to the show. So, but yeah, huge fan. Yeah, he's like, I, because I'm going to, I need to, he's not well right now. And I need to, I want to move someone. No, he's not well, but he's not dead.

No, he's not dead. But he, yeah, he was a huge influence on me. Because he was, he came at a time when that biker culture was not hadn't gone underground yet you know they hadn't brought in the rico law to get rid of the mafia so they hadn't really got rid of the real criminal element of that biker culture um which at that time they you know in the end of the 60s mid to end of 60s was a real heyday for those bikers because you know there was all these hippie chicks who you know and everyone was having sex and taking birth control and so it was like a free-for-all and you were supposed to do all that right and you know on acid you probably did and you know you were the whole idea was not to be

inhibited right um because that was part of being free and it was on the back of beat poetry and we were reading all that stuff so these bikers it, it was a, you know, they really cleaned up. Fucking a biker on acid might be the last thing you do with your freedom in your mind. You had to be careful with those guys. But S. Clay, of course, reading his stuff, because he was a biker, you know, he had a Harley back, I guess, you know, he was probably, where was he, when was he born around? Well, he was probably riding his bike. Where was he from? Oklahoma, I think. I'm not sure. And yeah, so he was a biker probably in early 50s. He was a little older than me. And so he kind of glamorized it much the way that Robert Crumb sort of was, you know,

it sort of documented the whole culture. Right. In all its insanity at the time. Yeah, all of it. Yeah. And, you know, he wasn't really a hippie himself. Right. You know, he was more of a nerdy guy, you know.

A lot of them were like that. Yeah. There was a lot of those guys that were documenting it that were sort of. I think cartoonists probably generally were because they were kind of intellectuals, but they had an artistic thing. And they had to get their work done. They were the only ones sitting there drawing things. Yeah, and compulsive. They were pretty nutty.

But S. Clay really, I don't know if I would say he did a disservice to girls like me, but he sort of had the language and the whole thing that, you know, was a turn on to a young girl and all that biker culture and the checker demon and all the dyke pirates and everything. But, you know, it was a dangerous thing to get involved in if you actually did get involved. Right. And if you were in Cleveland and places like I was, it was easy to access that sort of stuff. And there were the security guards at all the, you know, cool bands. So they were around. When you were like 18, yeah younger than that yeah and you know so uh yeah you kind of got a taste through us clay but you know if you really went

in there then that's not an easy thing to get back out of yeah i find that about a lot of things about where you know certainly drug culture and a lot of times that the people who were like i'm gonna fucking do it and and experience that some things are really hard to come back from well yeah drug addiction is hard you know alcoholism is bad to come i mean a lot of things yeah i mean even people promiscuity just be becoming too many choices and getting too loose with your whole you know having having no yeah having no structure just yeah and that was the really the thing then it's gone very conservative now but what i think the aftermath of a lot of that behavior is um kind of not being able to stick to the plan not being able to commit to anything because there's you know a kind of a free-for-all of choice yeah and also you kind of like of lose sense of your own self-parameters.

Yeah. Yeah, you're sort of like, who am I? If you annihilate yourself with all these choices, eventually you're like, I'm just a beat-up, broken mess. Well, yeah, that's absolutely true. I mean, I see it all around me, and I also am trying to not be a beaten up, broken mess. Well, thank God you have a point of view and a voice and you can manage a guitar and you have a thing.

I mean, if you have a thing, you can hold on to yourself a little bit better. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. But I still feel that if I represent anyone and I think anyone does who's in the public eye or making music or doing your thing. You know, I definitely represent, you know, people who are in their 60s, divorced, ex, you know, waitresses or, you know, divorcees, single parents, people who have limped along and tried to get through it. I don't represent successful people who were after the money and who were after. I still feel my kinship is to the,

I don't even know what it's called anymore. Rugged independence in a way. Yeah, it used to be anti-establishment. And that kind of doesn't even, even in the music culture now, it's all about the establishment. So I'm kind of lost in it myself. I don't know really why.

But all that other stuff, I mean, as a woman and as a role model, you know, all that stuff, I think your determination and your ability to transcend a lot of, you know, I don't know if I'd call it tragedy, but certainly within the band there was that. But then the heartbreak of just getting older and all that stuff. I mean, you still, you know, you persevere. That's not heartbreaking. Getting older. No, no, no.

Just having weathered divorces and stuff. There's heartbreak in life and you can't avoid it. Yeah, there is. But there's not more. There's no more for me than for an estate agent. That's right. Absolutely. That's absolutely true.

So how do you think, like, when you first, you know, came out of, where'd you grow up and which part of Ohio? Akron. And you still have a place there? No. No? Are you done with Ohio? No, I did have a vegan restaurant there, which was very successful, but I wasn't, you know, I didn't set it up right. I wanted something as my parents were getting older to engage myself with when I was there.

My parents were getting older to engage myself with when I was there. But I went against the advice of all my advisors who, you know, I was the only investor. I didn't know anything about restaurants. But I did it anyway. Yeah, that's what everyone told me. Right. And it did go under. And anyone that went there thought it was a big success. But, you know, like the fellow that was supposed to be managing it, like, didn't pay taxes and stuff like that.

So, yeah, there's a lot of rogues in the restaurant business. It's like the rock business. A lot of guys undercover somehow avoiding some stuff. But I take responsibility because I set it up and I'm, you know, it's very easy to try to do something. And then when it doesn't work out, you know, I think a lot of people always find excuses why it didn't work for them. But, you know, I always will take the responsibility that, you know, I got myself there and it didn't work out. And I didn't manage it properly. Yeah.

It was down to me in the end. Yeah. But it was a good restaurant from what I understand. It was amazing. Yeah. It was really great. It was called The Vegetarian. And, you know, I'd still like to do one one but next time I would make sure I had people in

place that knew what they were doing. Get some other people's money. Yeah I suppose. Yeah. You know I took a real kick in the teeth myself but in Akron they probably thought I was rolling in it. Yeah yeah. But you know that's what it's like when you go back to a I'm not going to say a small town Akron wasn't a small town but you know when you leave a place and then you come back and you try to put something into the community and get back into the downtown and give it some, you know, people still see you as a little bit of an outsider and I'm not too sure how much they appreciate it. So it was part of a thrust to sort of reinvigorate the downtown of Akron? Definitely. That was part of my whole... Did that succeed at all?

I haven't been to Akron. Well, yeah, it did because Akron, like all those other American cities, just collapsed. Right. I go to Cleveland. I'm not going to go... Cleveland, Detroit, you know the story. Oh, yeah. The industry collapsed.

And then for a whole lot of other reasons that we could talk about for hours. Sure, sure. Everyone bailed out of the city. And the train stations closed down there's no public transport to speak of you know unless you're and it just everyone bailed out to the suburbs and it became the mall culture yeah so i went back yeah and tried to put my restaurant in the downtown and tried to say come on everyone let's go you know i get on the bus and i get the local paper the akron beacon journal and

say come on public transports for everyone and everyone was like standing there going no it's not and i was like no come on it is i'm sorry you championed it you put yourself out i tried i tried well what's interesting to me is like uh you know because of of where you're at and what you grew up in like i watched last night, I watched a documentary on the MC5 and Cleveland, Detroit, and a lot of those bigger industrial cities had great rock and roll scene. Like the MC5, I'd never seen that thing.

That was pretty astounding. Well, the reason that we had such a great rock and roll scene is because we didn't really have a scene. Right. So, you know, you've had people in new york i mean there were pockets of activity in new york there was the philly sound the detroit sound there was you know all these places that every everywhere of course had its own radio station and its own sound it was very regional right and that all went to the you know that that was destroyed by well mtv came in and it all became

very uniform and then you know i killed everything yeah yeah um so again another channel and corporate program the corporate thing when i went back to cleveland after i got in my band and it was now in the 80s and when i went back and i saw what happened to radio i was in tears because you know i grew up with wmms and our the disc jockey was a guru who showed us everything. And everything I know about music, I learned from listening to the radio. What DJ? Well, it was Billy Bass was the guy there.

These were guys that could make choices about music, had a point of view. Whatever was going on that day, if it was raining, they'd play Rainy Day by Jimi Hendrix. Whatever it was, Rain by the Beatles. They would just make up the playlist according to and when i went back and saw that the dj had no power and that he was given a playlist i was anyway but then it went on to college radio and then it and you know i know i'm older and i'm old-fashioned that way because i loved radio but i've never got so good with the technology. For me, I just turn it on,

and even when it went to buttons, I thought it started to lose my place. Yeah, I always just turn on the radio. I don't make a lot of choices, but I usually listen to NPR now. So who were the people that had the most influence on you as a teenager that sort of defined your brain rock-wise? Oh, well, I mean, I was in the heyday of all the best stuff yeah yeah you

know i was 14 when the first beatles album came out so you know that was just so you're like wide open and there you go yeah it was all there i remember where i was standing when i saw the jimmy hendrix's album when i was you know when i first saw it yeah i went to where were you standing in someone's house you know just in their basement. They said, look at this. Was it their brother's or was it theirs? Did they just buy it? It was someone's, yeah, maybe someone's. I don't know. I can remember when I went to Disc Records in the Summit Mall

and I was going through the bins and I picked up an album and I thought, freak out, what does that mean? And I opened it up and I was like, I took it to Danny Smoot who was the, you know, the working behind the tell. Zappa's freak out? Yeah, and I said, will you play some of this? And he played like, I took it to Danny Smoot, who was the, you know, the working behind the tell. Zappa's freak out? Yeah. And I said, well, you play some of this.

And he played Help, I'm a Rock. And it was like this sort of beat poetry, this sort of jazz rock. So I bought that. And then you'd go home and call everyone and say, you've got to hear this. Zappa's alive. It was amazing. So I went, I grew up through, you know, there was, of course, Mitch Ryan and the Detroit Wheels were just up there. There was Paul Butterfield Blues Band was out there.

Oh, my God. All the great stuff was coming through Cleveland. Everything came through Cleveland. Because it was down the street, kind of. Well, because Cleveland was like a testing ground because we didn't have our own scene so much. I mean, there's a few things that came out of Cleveland. Bobby Womack was from Cleveland. There was, you know, a few bands, Ruby and the Romantics, The Outsiders.

There was a few things. But because we didn't have our own scene, people were more collectors and listeners. Right. Because they weren't out grooving. They were in the house. You know, they were sitting by the radio listening. So you actually took more in, probably. I think so.

I think we had a better education. And when Bowie did his first tour of America, the first stop was Cleveland, Ohio, when Lou Reed, all the bands. Did you go? Yeah. You saw Bowie on his first tour? I was standing outside his sound check.

So what album would that have been? Hunky Dory was out. And just Ziggy Stardust had come out now. So that was like full on. Yeah, it was right at the moment. And you saw Lou on what album? Well, I saw the Velvet Underground there. And then when Lou, that's probably one of his first stops when he went solo.

So you knew to go see all these people. Fuck yeah. Are you kidding? But those weren't necessarily mainstream acts were they at that time i mean was it mainstream wasn't the term right so you would go and would it be packed out like how big were the rooms when you saw bow i don't know they were you know like the agora they were you know were they clubs or kind of standing clubs with a yeah um it wasn't there was no mainstream it didn't exist it wasn't the word how the term household name didn't exist if you were a rock there was still a circuit of like old rockers right that did you know like hit music well i mean the people that

were enthusiasts there might be like 12 in your high school right exactly it wasn't everyone right so you know if you went to a place like that, you saw everyone else from Northeastern Ohio who happened to like the Rolling Stones. I saw them with, I've seen every Rolling Stone lineup. Yeah. My girlfriends and I were 14 when we went and saw them with Brian Jones. Really?

Yeah. I was there, man. I wish I had seen you. That's how I can be the leader of a rock band, because I listened to the radio and I saw these guys. But you saw Brian Jones. I mean, I've never talked to anybody that saw Brian Jones, I had seen that. That's how I can be the leader of a rock band, because I listened to the radio and I saw these guys. But you saw Brian Jones. I mean, I've never talked to anybody that saw Brian Jones, I don't think. Like, it must have been amazing.

I can't even imagine what that was like. And I'm a Stones fan. Yeah. The first time I saw them. It was amazing. It was like 1981. No, this was like 66. Yeah, I know.

I missed it by 10 years. Well, I didn't see everything. I didn't see Hendrix and, you know, I didn't see the Beatles. But, you know, I saw what I could. So what was the big switch? I mean, when did, because, you know, I know that, you know, music changed drastically and you were sort of, you felt the movement to do something with it. When did that start to happen for yourself?

Oh, well, I would have liked to have done something, you know, when I was listening to Blind Faith and The Cream and, you know, Traffic and all the bands. But you weren't playing at all? Yeah, I had a guitar, but, you know, I was a girl and I wasn't good enough to play along to the radio. Right. I wouldn't have gone with the guys in the art room and gone to a jam on the weekend because I just would have been too, you know, I mean, some of my girlfriends played. Right. You know, i was still

shy around guys right um and i didn't want to say hey look i learned born in chicago you know i would have i just couldn't have but i had my guitar and yeah um and i um you know i had my johnny winter albums and i you know i loved it i my john hammond albums i mean i loved that john hammond those are those the older johnond records are great. Amazing. They're great. Yeah. I was just listening to Johnny Winter yesterday.

Fantastic. Still Alive and Well, I mean, that is the one I was listening to. I had the one with the black sleeve and his reflection in the black guitar. It was like mirror-y? Yeah, with a little second draw on it and everything. I don't know what it was called. Yeah, yeah. God, he could play, man.

Oh, amazing. I actually saw him once backstage somewhere at a festival, and I couldn't even walk up and say anything to him. Yeah, I was supposed to interview him when he, like a week or two after he passed away. It was pretty sad. What was amazing about him is how pure blues he went. Like, he started with that rock,

and then he just went straight up blues it's great oh it was a great great time so the music was was definitive um when did you first start to say like i'm gonna do it well you know first i had to leave the states and then i went to over to and i would have maybe wanted to be a singer i mean mean, I tried a little something in Ohio with a couple guys. I was too afraid. Yeah. Why'd you have to leave the States? Well, it was just time for me to go. You know, like that S. Clay Wilson influence didn't work out very well for me. You hit the wall? I needed to get out. And you know, things, I didn't know what I was going to do there, but I wanted to see the world. That's what I wanted to, you know, see the world.

That's what I wanted to do. How old were you? 22 when I went to England. And what was the reason? I wanted to go somewhere. And you just moved there? Yeah. What did your parents say?

I think they probably didn't know what was happening. And you just left. Pretty much, yeah. Do you have siblings? I have an older brother. Yeah, he's there. He's in England? No, he's in Ohio.

Yeah, he's played in the same band for 45 years, the Numbers Band in Kent, Ohio. He was the musician. Terry Hynde, he was this great musician. I was just Terry Hynde's little sister. What kind of music did he play? He's a jazz saxophonist. Really?

Uh-huh. And is he great? Yeah, he's really great i mean he's really he really is great so you grew up with that in the house yeah but he always he would say christy you know in 10 years time you won't even people won't even know what rock and roll was because he was he came from a jazz background he thought jazz was gonna win well you know maybe it it should have you know be as a musical form it should have I mean it's definitely got dumbed down but you know there's no question about it yeah yeah especially as it's going now but I mean and there's no bands anymore that's kind of over it's a dying breed but at the time you know in the mid 60s is when jazz when it was in its heyday I saw

Moe's Allison just stopped touring. Oh, really? Huge influence, another one. Anyway, I took off and I, then, it was around the time that punk started to happen

that I, at that point, by the time I was 24, I thought I was too old to get in a band. You know, back in those days, 24 was,

you were already, you know. Yeah. People were in bands when they were 15 and 16 and they went out and played and they i mean that's why the beatles led zeppelin and those guys they all could make albums in three days their first albums because they'd been playing it for years right um right and they could play yeah it's the opposite of how people make records today they can't play and it

takes them two years right um and there's no one in the room with them when they're playing yeah and they've never played in front of anyone. Right. So they get a huge hit and they've never been on stage. But those guys who played their dues, they had that one mind thing, right? And they understood each other.

Yeah, they played. They could play. And every band, I mean, every town in the States had a bar band, a local bar band, which is what Bruce Springsteen was. He was like the local bar band that European kids never had.

In Asbury Park. Yeah. Yeah. You know, we all had one. Like in town there was we had a band called the brambles i mean we everyone had a band that everyone went to see in the 60s did you uh was iggy around when you were in iggy was but i met i got introduced to iggy when i became interested in david bowie because to me iggy and the stooges would have still been a little bit like a local thing and I was thought I wanted English music so when I saw that Bowie was listening to him then I globbed on then I went up to see well Bowie played in Cleveland then we drove to Detroit to see him and um this is on his first tour and uh you know I was I would never leave the

place when everyone was like come on Chris we have to drive 100 miles, let's go. And I couldn't take my eyes off the stage, even after the crew was breaking down the gear and the lights were up. And there he was, Iggy Pop, he walked by me. Yeah, did you say anything? Of course not. But, I mean, he looked at me and I looked at him. And, you know, that's it. I couldn't talk for the next three hours.

I was stricken. He's sort of an astounding performer, that guy. Yeah. I mean, he was just walking by. Even then, it was great. Oh, I mean, I was just... And that changed everything for me. And I thought that, yeah, I thought that in England, they would understand Iggy more because

I read an article with someone that... Anyway, it's a long story. It's a long story. And it's probably boring. But I got there in the end. No, it's a long story, and it's probably boring, but I got there in the end. No, it's not boring. You're good for a long story. I got there in the end. But so you were hung up on the British rock.

Yeah, but I liked the Buffalo Springfield and Crosby Stills. I get it. I liked all of it. But you thought your future was in England somehow. Well, I knew that I just had to go. Yeah. So when did you get there? What year was that?

1973. So what was going on? Well, I walked up... What were going on? Well, I walked up. What were you doing? Well, I had to walk up. I was with a friend, and I said, take us to a hotel. So they took us somewhere in London, near the Bayswater Road. I didn't know anything about London, so we went to some kind of a hotel or hostel.

we went to some kind of a hotel or hostel. And then I walked up to the top of the road where there was these sort of like, like a street market. I'd never seen anything like that. And I just went to every stall and asked if anyone could give me a job. Because, you know, of course, I was going to have to work. I only had a couple hundred dollars.

And then someone agreed to give me a job. And I just went on from there, selling handbags. And then I met, you know, I just went on from there, selling handbags. And then I met, you know, it just went on from there. And within about five years, I'd done some traveling around. I went back over to Paris and then back to Cleveland by the time I wanted to get into a band. What bands were you seeing then, though, like in 73?

Well, that was a bad time for music. I mean, of course, the New York Dolls were about to emerge. Todd Rundgren had been doing some really great stuff. Here. Here, yeah. I'd seen him before I went over when he was with

those Sales Brothers and he had a guy named Yves Labatt or Jean Labatt, Jean something. I interviewed Hunt in Tucson. Right, well, the Hunt brothers were there

and yeah, I mean, when I got over to London, no, it wasn't, you know, I was thinking that Mark Boland would be playing down the street, but you know, it was kind of the end of that. I'd seen him. I'd driven up to Toronto with a friend and he was playing when I was still in Ohio. You saw T-Rex? Yeah. Oh my God.

Yeah. So you were like a full-on fan. Totally. Are you kidding? That was your life. Of course. Big time. That was it.

You just loved rock. Totally. That's what it was. And so when you went to England, it was more to sort of get your head together than anything else. Kind of. And to start to see the world and see what I was going to do. Did you study or did you go to school or anything? No.

I mean, well, I'd gone to Kent State for a little while to buy some time. Right, yeah. I started there when I was 17, and it was that summer the first Neil Young album was out and the first Tim Buckley, not the first Tim Buckley, Happy Sad had just come out. So that's what I did that summer, the first Neil Young album was out and the first Tim Buckley out. Not the first Tim Buckley. Happy Sad had just come out.

So that's what I did that summer, was listen to those two records. That was it. That was it. Yeah, I mean, I wasn't doing real good in school. And then, yeah, there was a course and I went to Mexico. That was the one time I'd been there with my school course. I've kind of flunked that too. You saw Mexico

yeah yeah um and then there was the shootings at Kent State and then they closed down the school and all that oh so you were there oh yeah oh my god like because like just having seen this documentary last night about the mc5 in like 67 68 69 I mean, I can't even imagine, because I didn't live it, the amount of weird chaos and unpredictability that was just everywhere. So the music sort of like reflected all that. Yeah, it was certainly an interesting time with, you know, Vietnam,

everyone was taking a lot of drugs, of which we're still limping away from that. You know, that was a tragedy in the end because it started out as mind-expanding pot and that sort of thing. But then, of course, you got the criminal element in there because it was illegal. So you had to buy it from people that were selling you anything they could.

And then the drugs got... And people get addicted and they started buying... Speed and heroin. Yeah. Killed a lot of people. Sure did. And heroin. Yeah. Killed a lot of people. Sure did. And then, yeah. I mean, alcohol was not the drug of choice.

But as we know, that's probably the most insidious because it's been legal. And that's the one that's killed most people. Yeah. And usually when there's, you know, some sort of weird cocktail, it's alcohol related. Yeah, yeah. That is what I. It's persistent. Keeps going.

Keeps giving. Yeah. It takes a licking, but it still keeps ticking. That's right. tale it's alcohol related yeah yeah that's what i it's persistent keeps going keeps giving uh yeah it takes a licking but it still keeps that's right so what was the first sort of forays into like you know standing up with your guitar and getting involved i mean how did you transition from selling handbags yeah well i had a bunch of different jobs and then that punk thing was happening you know i went over to someone's house to get a cat from this woman, a kitten. And I walked in, and I think she was a pot dealer. And I heard this little band, and I said, what's going on there? And she goes, that's my son's band.

And I went, I walked in the next room, and it was just in a little flat. And I said, they were like 14-year-old kids, and I thought, wow, I thought they were amazing. And I said, they were playing sort of kind of heavy metal type thing, and I said, well, why don't you guys play like Velvet Underground if you can only play three chords? And they went, well, what's that? And I said, well, here.

I took the guitar and showed this kid how to play White Light, White Heat, and I could see them looking at me like, how come mom's friend knows how to do that? And that didn't occur to me. I thought, oh, yeah, I can play. Right. Because I'd been doing that, you know, in Ohio, obviously. And I thought, wow.

I thought, I wonder if I can manage these. I mean, I've got no business. Nothing. I'm the most hands-off with business person I've ever met in this business. Right. But I thought I was too old to be in a band. I thought, well, maybe I can guide them somehow. Yeah.

Because I was maybe 23, 24 at the time. And did you? No. That's when I, but I kind of got the taste for the guitar again. Yeah. And I thought, well, you know, and then around then I started, it was just before punk, and then I started meeting a lot of people, and everyone was at it trying to get a band together.

And that's when I kind of got in there, and being a girl wasn't kind of a novelty then. It was very non-discriminatory, the punk thing. So anyone could do anything. You didn't even have to play. Right. I mean, you didn't have to be able to play. In fact, it was kind of a disadvantage. So, you know, everything was going in my favor.

And so you saw that scene sort of taking form. Totally. I was there. I played with everyone in that scene. And I knew everyone in the scene. Who were those kids? Did they end up anywhere? Well, I mean, I was working for Vivian Westwood and Malcolm McLaren in their shop for a little while.

I knew all the guys. What was that? On like King's Road or somewhere? The King's Road, yeah. Yeah. I knew all the guys that were gotten to the Sex Pistols, the Damned. I was going to do a band with them. Some of the guys in The Clash I started working with

before they became The Clash. I knew all of them. I was in there trying to get a band together. How'd you meet them all? Just from working at the store? Just from being in London, yeah. I just met everyone that, yeah. And what was McLaren like?

He was a, I loved him. I thought he was, I really looked up to him, actually. I thought he was I really looked up to him actually I thought he was really a UD he wasn't a hippie that was the thing about Malcolm and Vivian

they weren't hippies they weren't coming from that they were more coming from a sort of teddy boy student intellectual kind of thing and very English

so it was kind of new to me so I found it fascinating and I looked up to them because they had this whole other way of, you know, this look was different than anything I'd seen. And I, and they loved like the New York dolls that Malcolm was going to do

something with them. And we talked about doing something to together and he tried to help me too. But so in, in looking at it, do you think that when the New York dolls sort of happened? Cause I mean, you know, I read the legs McNeil book and he sort of thinks that they were the beginning of what became American punk anyways. But do you think that what Malcolm was seeing was interpreting this fashion?

I mean, did it start with fashion? Well, I would say more of an anti-fashion. Right right it didn't seem like it at the time look well they defined the look malcolm and vivian they designed all that stuff they designed it all and that became the standard you know well people copied it the idea was to do your own thing right you know it was such a great look and everyone you know so they just certainly you know people are natural born followers if you see a band and it looks great, you want to look like that. And it was completely anti-establishment. Well, yeah, it was.

That was the idea of it. Even more so because then they had to make it different than the 60s anti-establishment. Yeah, it was very, very different. It was almost anti-60s anti-establishment. Sure it was. Yeah. I mean, I remember standing in a club called The Vortex after the Roxy closed and Elvis Presleyley died and they were cheering i mean i thought that was out of order but that was the tone of things at the time was like you know right king is dead they wanted it all to go right um did you i mean this was six

months after punk had you know punk only lasted about six months so this is toward the end of it it only lasted six months in earnest yeah yeah what were those six months and who were the the the prime movers in that? Well, the Sex Pistols. Right. The Clash then came along after the Sex Pistols. The Damned came along then after that. There was the Adverts.

Then the Slits came along. There was, I mean, this is just in London. Of course, there was all over the UK. There was the Buzzcocks were happening. There was the Undertones. Then there was all that two-tone stuff going on from like coventry bristol the ska stuff all the ska stuff yeah um i mean ub40 was a little reggae band who i saw in a basement somewhere and said hey come and you know by then

around that time i'd got my band together so this was over a period of three years but but the punk thing didn't last very long no yeah did you see the the sex pistols oh yeah a lot of course was it a mess uh it was always um you never knew what was gonna happen but you come from like you know they like you said that these you you had a tremendous respect for people that played and that you made amazing music you grew up with yeah but now and now it had got a bit flabby and it was getting a little bit prog rockish. So when the Sex Pills came along,

it was a very, you know, up yours to all that. And it was really deconstructing everything and bringing it back to basics. And in England, it's very tribal too. And I like that. The playing, it was more attitude than playing because the playing had become too important in music. But a lot of those people that you mentioned could really play.

I mean, you know, the Clash, well, the Clash could play. Well, yeah, they were pretty basic. As soon as you really got serious about playing, it started not being so punky anymore. Was that what killed punk? Pretty much. People said like, well, we got the look. Let's play for real. And also, if no one could really play and there wasn't, that was frustrating, too, because guitar players wanted to learn their craft and to get better. And was the end of punk sort of around like...

Probably about 78. Because your band... Well, my band wasn't a punk band because Jimmy Scott, last of the great guitar heroes, if you ask me, James, my name is Scott, last of the great guitar heroes, if you ask me, James Honeyman Scott, he didn't really like punk. He was in Hereford, which was out in the sticks.

And, you know, to him, it was kind of angry and it wasn't musical. He liked Abba and the Beach Boys, which you couldn't say at the time. But he was only, you know, he was 23. And that's what he liked.

So, you know, and he came into it. And how'd you meet him? Through Pete Farndon, who was also from Hereford. The bass player. Lemmy told me to look up this guy. I was looking for a band. It's a long story, man.

Lemmy did? Yeah, Lemmy was another. That was the whole other side that you didn't even mention was that metal side of punk. Oh, Lemmy was very instrumental in my history. Without him, the Preters wouldn't have happened. Well how'd you meet him and what how does that unfold? Because he hung out with all the bikers and stuff in London so of course you know I gravitated. That was

your thing. It seems to have been and when I got there that's who I met and then you know and they were all you know in fact Lemmy the first time I met him I was in a shop on the King's Road. He walked up to me and he stuck a, he didn't say anything. He just stuck this silver tube he had around his neck on a chain in a bag of white powder and shoved it up my snout and walked away. I was up for three days. That was the first meeting? Yeah.

We didn't talk. But Lemmy was always around and lemmy was coming hawk hawkwood was shutting down and he was about to start motorhead and motorhead had its own thing you know there was there was also t-rex and some of those bands had been pre-glam were sort of still into this kind of hippie you know so there was and there was a lot of there was in that Notting Hill area there was a lot of Rastafarians too they influenced the punk thing a lot in fact in London the only music the punks listened to was reggae music I never heard anything else in anyone's house no one listened in the Roxy Club all they listened to was reggae yeah yeah so um that was a big influence and it had an

influence on the music um but Hawkwind and well Motorhead now they kind of lived outside of it all because you know it was Lemmy right and Lemmy's always Lemmy yeah did you like Hawkwind well it was a little before my time I probably arrived there was Hawkwind the Pink Fairies and those bands right the first band I saw when I got to London was Kilburn in the High Road Kilburn in the High Roads the 100 Club and that was then became well that was Ian Drury's band okay so Lemmy is how do you introduce you to well he told me to look I went over and you know I was talking to him and he said to keep my eye out for a guy that he thought could be a drummer for me.

And, you know, I was kind of feeling sorry for myself because nothing was happening. I'd been trying to get a band together for a long time. And he said, well, no one said it was going to be easy. And I was really shocked that I thought he was going to be a little more simpatico. So he was a guy, his crew, who you would hang out with. He was sort of like a big brother, buddy kind of thing.

Yeah, he wanted to fuck me, you know. You didn't relent? Well, you know but you didn't relent well you know this isn't a kiss and tell so um but i so i you know i went over i said look man you know i nothing's happening and he said well check this guy out named gas so i anyway then i saw this guy in the street one gas gas wild his name was yeah so I saw the guy that Lambie described on the street, and I opened the window. I said, is your name Gas? And he went, yeah.

I said, do you want to get in a band? He went, yeah, but I don't have any drums. I said, I'll sort that out. So I brought him into it. And then through this guy Gas, he was from Hereford. Yeah. And through him, I met Pete Farndon, who was from Hereford. Pete Farndon was my bass player then.

The original bass player, yeah. And through him, we got James Honeyman Scott, and then we found Martin. So they were all from Hereford. Pete Farnham was my bass player then. The original bass player, yeah. we got James Honeyman Scott and then we found Martin. So they were all from Hereford. Right. So they were completely outside of punk. They were completely

outside of punk. What were they coming from? Pete was very enamored with punk. Right. But he was more enamored with the Heartbreakers when they came to town.

And when they came to town about heroin, it was the end of punk. Right. And Pete got into all that. So Johnny Thunders changed it. Yeah, he did. Yeah.

And that was sort of what became known as American punk was that trip. Well, they weren't considered punk. They were the first band that came to the Roxy Club where they could actually play and everyone was blown away and just loved them because they were even more fucked up than the punks right but they could play so i mean you know people really were very respectful of the heartbreakers great tone they were amazing oh man and i mean of course i mean i saw uh the new york dolls with malcolm and vivian actually when they came over yeah and then uh the first gig i had as The Pretenders, I was invited by David Johansson to play with his band, the David Johansson Band, up at Barbarella's in Birmingham.

And what was Jimmy Scott then? How did you guys sort of meld minds around what you were going to do, your tone? Well, I needed to get to put some demos together, and I got... Actually, I wanted... There was rumors that Motorhead might break up, I needed to get to put some demos together and I got, actually I wanted, I, there was rumors that Motorhead might break up and,

uh, I knew that someone said that the Heartbreakers kind of had their eye on, on Filthy Animal Taylor, who was their, you know, kid drummer. Yeah. And I wanted, I wanted Phil in my band because I had this idea that my band would be like a

motorcycle club, but with guitars, you know, I mean, I thought I was a badass. And I didn't want anyone else sniffing around Phil in case they did break up. But of course, I couldn't approach him because he was in motor. I wouldn't have dreamt of doing such a thing. But I thought, well, what if we say that we're auditioning for a guitar player and we ask Phil to help us?

And then he'll see what we have to offer. And then if they do break up, he would have, you know, we'd be able to put a bid in front. Remember us? Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, they didn't break up. But we got, we had to get a guitar player to do this faux audition. Right.

So Pete said, well, I know a couple of guys in Hereford. And I said, okay. And he goes, well, there's a local guitar hero. And then this little brother of this girl I used to go out with. And I said, well, you know, get the guy in the place, you know, whichever. So he started calling. I said, hang. And he goes, well, there's a local guitar hero and then this little brother of this girl I used to go out with. And I said, well, get the guy in the place, whichever. So he started calling. I said, hang on a minute. The local guitar hero, he's married and has a kid, doesn't he?

And he went, yeah. And I said, put the phone down. I said, call the other kid. So he called the kid, and that was Jimmy Scott. So he came to town, and I don't think we liked each other much. I was too angry. Scott. So he came to town and I don't think we liked each other much. He saw me. I was too angry. Right. But we ended up eventually making these demos we needed to make together.

And as soon as I listened to the demos, I knew that I'd found my guitar player. Yeah, he's astounding. So I had to figure out how to get him to leave his girlfriend and his job and to leave Hereford. But he didn't like punk, but he loved Nick Lowe. Right. And so I knew Nick Lowe. So I thought, that's it. I'll just get Nick Lowe to say that he'll produce our first single, and then Jimmy will have to join us. Right.

So I left this stuff over with Nick. Yeah. And it was all songs I had written except for this one cover from an old Kinks album that I remembered. And then, of course, Nick didn't really, wasn't into my songs so much because they were too angry, but he loved what he called the Sandy Shaw song. So I said, we'll do it, we'll do it. So I called Jimmy Scott. I said, Nick Lowe's going to produce us.

But before I, because I knew that would seduce Jimmy. Right. But before I even got a chance to ask him, he goes, wait, before you say anything, I've been listening to the demos and can I be in the band? So he was already in. So he was already in. And then Nick did the first Pretenders single,

which was Stop Your Sobbing. And that was huge. It was pretty big, I think. I think it was in the top 20 or something. Well, so that was really the evolution out of punk was Nick Lowe was kind of elemental in helping your sound. Yes, big time. Nick Lowe had a lot to do with my,

you know, without Nick, I would have stumbled along. I wanted him to do my album. He was busy. But by then, of course, I knew Chris Thomas, who I'd met through Chris Spedding, who I'd met in Paris when I was doing something. And I took Chris Spedding to go see the Sex Pistols because he wanted to get in on something. And, you know, Spedding ended up producing their demos and I'd sung on Spedding, some of Spedding's solo albums. And that's where I met Chris Thomas, who then went on to produce the Sex Pistols first record. And he did the Pretenders. We considered him the fifth pretender for the first three albums.

It's a completely different game than the Sex Pistols, too, right? I mean, you guys were totally, you know. Yeah, well, we were musical. Yeah. But that was Jimmy Scott, see? And then I didn't realize that I had this. I was kind of in denial of my musicality because, you know, I thought, you know, it was all about not really heavy metal. But, you know, I was more deconstructed and angry.

And that melodic thing, I kind of had forgot about that. But, you know, I mean, I grew up listening to James Brown, you know. I was listening to real melodic stuff. But you have a beautiful melodic voice. And you just were in denial about it? I just didn't. I wasn't. You know, I didn't know what it was yet because I hadn't really sung yet.

But the first Pretenders album feels like your voice is fully realized. Well, who knows? I don't know where that came from. And I mean, I had only been in one band back in Ohio, and that was with a guy I met in Coggle Falls. And he put a little band together called Sat Sun Matt. We did one show in a church hall of covers, and I was petrified. Anyway, I met him years later. Him and his band Devo came to town.

And I said, hey, man, what was that band? Remember the band we were in? What did it mean? And he went, Saturday, Sunday matinee. And that was Mark Mothersbaugh. That's who I had my first band with. Really? Yeah. And I was about 16. And well, that's the other unmentioned Ohio band, isn't it? Yeah. There was a few. And they were a whole other thing. I mean, outside of punk and outside of whatever happened at the end of the 60s and outside of pop,

Devo took this art rock idea and just elevated it to a level. Yeah, they were the acceptable face of quirky. And I don't like wacky stuff much. Not a big Residence fan or anything like that. I wasn't that. I mean, I like the Ramones. I wasn't that keyed on the New York scene. It was a bit arty for me.

I wouldn't have put it in those terms at the time. Even in retrospect, you're not? Well, in retrospect, things are always different. We rewrite history and bands that didn't seem very important at the time suddenly become... But I would think you'd like television. I probably didn't listen to much of that. Remember, we were only listening to reggae music.

When I first heard reggae music, it stopped me in my tracks, and I thought, this is the future. Right. I thought I'd seen the future, and I was shocked that it never took off in America. I thought everything would change with reggae. But it influenced that punk thing. And then when it came into, then disco came,

and that fucked everything up. Fucked everything up bad. But when. That was like such a left turn. Like, why were we in there? That's when I went to high school. It's like punk had sort of not really took traction in the States, you know, in the late 70s.

And it was just fucking disco everywhere. And then all of a sudden the knack happened. And that was the end of it. Well, yeah. You know, because reggae had a sort of a spiritual base. Sure. And I think, you know, black American music started getting a real smash and grab mentality. Right.

And they didn't want the spiritual stuff so much. And it's a weird one, the way that all, I mean, it still never really took off, reggae. But it certainly influenced, what would you, yeah in england was always very very heavily influenced by um i mean james brown was the guy that influenced everything yeah even reggae he influenced he's he was the man so all right so the first album happens and you're on the map in a big way i mean like people i mean i remember everybody you were huge. Did you feel it? Did you like? Not really, no. I've never felt, I always feel the same.

I don't feel, first of all, I said to my manager, never call me with chart positions. And I never really wanted to look at that or read reviews or read anything. That's always been my policy. Nothing to do with business, nothing to do with, I never had A&R. You know, I just did my thing. But you knew getting on stage that the crowds were getting bigger. Well, yeah. You know, I was getting over my stage fright and being self-conscious.

I didn't want to be self-conscious. So I try not to. I just tried to do what I had to do. And so the first three albums all had hits on them. Yeah. Yeah. But we weren't catering to anything. No, I know.

It just happened to work that way. I mean, eventually we weren't having hits to anything it just happened to work that way i mean eventually we weren't having hits and i did try to cater but you know that was a long time what album did that start on well that's when i did um i'll stand by you with uh billy and tom yeah tom kelly and billy steinberg yeah and that was when i was said well hang on a minute i'm not on the radio anymore you know and i didn't like it yeah Yeah. Because I'm about radio. Right. That was always about, that's why I was okay to have my first single be that Kinks cover. And all my punk friends were like, what are you doing?

What happened to your songs? And I was like, yeah, but this is a better single. Right. You know, I had a radio mentality. Right. You wanted to stay relevant. And I wanted Nick Lowe to produce it. And then at what point did Jimmy Scott pass away? Well, Jimmy, we fired Pete in the beginning of 1983 because he got too smacked out.

And that was the worst time, obviously, because we had to tell him. Anyway, and then Jimmy was dead three days later from a drug overdose. And that was the worst time, obviously, because we had to tell him. Anyway, and then Jimmy was dead three days later from a drug overdose. And that was in 83? Yeah. And you'd already recorded Learning to Crawl? No. No. No, Learning to Crawl was a reference to that.

To getting out of there. So we had to, to starting over, we had to, and I was pregnant with, then I had a little kid now. So I had to, yeah. you say that like it was like now i got it i got this well you know i was i never even held a baby and i had to deal with all this stuff and keep my band alive and they just died on me you know pete and jimmy jimmy then pete died eight months later and the last time i saw him was at jimmy's funeral so he wasn't happy obviously we had to find it It was all fucked up. That's what happens with drugs.

Yeah. It was all fucked up. But it wasn't necessarily surprising. Well, it's never surprising when someone dies, you know. But you knew there were drugs everywhere. You know that that's always a... Yeah, yeah. And you just have to deal with it.

You just have to live with the fact. Because, I mean, everyone was... You know when you have a band member who's using drugs, there's nothing you can really do, right? Yeah, we were all using drugs. Right. You know, you can't really. That's the deal. And when you had the baby, was this a surprise baby?

No, no, no. I was, you know, at that point I was, you know, I wanted this. I thought I was going to get married and everything. But anyway. To Ray. Yeah. And is that, how was that kid? Good, thank you.

Good. And so now you got a baby. You got a horrible tragedy. And all of a sudden, you know, and then Jimmy died. And then after we just fired Pete. And it wasn't the best of times. But the next album you pulled out, you transcended. I mean, that was a good record.

Yeah, I guess, yeah. I guess, well, yeah, learning to call, yeah, yeah. I mean, what can you do? You have to keep living. And how do you, like now that you're, like after you've gone through this period, and I've talked to musicians that have had, you know, where you have this amazing momentum, and then this music changes in a way. Well, domesticity kind of, you know, kills it off.

That doesn't help. On your side. Well, on anyone's side. Right. And me being a mother and having to be a single parent and stuff, obviously that's your... If anything, it's given me a longevity, or that's how I like to think of it.

Because I didn't burn myself out too fast and just relentlessly keep making records because I had to really take my time. But you eventually did get married. Did you see that settling down? That never happened. didn't happen no it never worked well i did i did have a few failed attempts yeah um yeah but um yeah i mean you know but i kept my the music going so yeah they're always putting out records. So now how old are your kids? They're older now. They're like around 30 each.

So now, and you come up with this, the Stockholm record, I just listened to yesterday and it's great. Thank you. And you're back in performing mode. Yeah.

I don't guess you ever left really though. Not so much. I've pretty much been out on the road doing a lot of touring and a lot of, yeah, I've stayed on it pretty much. I've pretty much been out on the road doing a lot of touring. And, you know, a lot of... Yeah, I've stayed on it pretty much. How's this record different? I mean, it is a solo record, which is different, right?

Well, it's called a solo record, but it's not that different than anything I've done, to be honest. I just happened to meet someone and lived in Stockholm, so I kept going over there, and then I worked with some guys over there. Most of it's done with Bjorn Jitling and a couple of songs. I just got into this collaboration mode where writing with someone that I didn't know became really fun.

I tried it with Tom Kelly and Billy Steinberg, and it was great. I mean, even when I met Bob Dylan years ago, he said, you know, I got some tunes. And, you know, I was like, well, I don't know how to write with someone. I didn't know what to say to him, you know, I got some tunes. And, you know, I was like, well, I don't know how to write with someone. I didn't know what to say to him, you know. I didn't know. I wouldn't have known how to sit down and write with someone else. He wanted to collaborate?

Well, I think he was, you know, inviting that. Where did you meet him? Backstage at a, Bill Graham set it up. Bill Graham called and said, do you want to see, come back and, you know, so you want to see this Dylan show? Yeah. And I was like, well, yeah. What year was that? 83, 84. come back and you know so you want to see this dylan show yeah i was like well yeah what year

was that 83 84 so you knew bill like because we mentioned bill yeah he was a he was a we had conversations saying hey you know we should do take you know get a whole bunch of bands like they used to do those soul reviews and take them right across the states and i'd have conversations like that with him yeah anyway so um but i didn't really know how to collaborate and i you wrote all your own songs by yourself at first yeah just with a guitar i mean they weren't very good but when i brought them to jimmy scott and the band they they transformed them into something that sounded great that's collaborating yeah but i mean as far as the initial writing of the song i like actually playing with hooks or playing with phrasing?

Yeah, well, they added all that, but I had to come up with the thing. Well, the song and say, here's the song, and then they would make it interesting. And how are you collaborating now that that's different? Well, now I can just go in and say, what do you got? And the guy might say, well, I mean, he might whistle something into a phone, and I'll say, all right, leave it with me for a half an hour and you work it out vocally yeah because you know there's all sorts of ways you can do it but I mean I found

it's more fun than sitting alone and doing it sure you know and it's just it's kind of isolating sometimes I mean it's it's it's a it's very rewarding writing songs and I suppose it's the thing I like the most but anyway so I went to Stockholm with Bjorn yeah but they could only he could only work for two or three days at a time because he was busy so i kept going back and forth and then yoki ohond who was another guy i met there i wrote a couple tunes with him adding the blues one of them um and now i just think oh and they they wouldn't i said come on you guys let's get in in a band and take this on the road. Yeah.

And I was going to call us the Russian icons, and then they wouldn't leave their wives and their bands and their studios to be with me. So I guess I'm losing my touch. I couldn't get them to leave their life. So I had to go back to London, and that was why it's got just my name on it. Right. So you spent a lot of time in Stockholm. Had you been there before?

Well, yeah, to play, but I only went there to work. Is it amazing? Is it relaxing? It's gorgeous. Yeah, it's amazing. But I mean, I was in a hotel in the studio, hotel in the studio, and then airport, gate, studio, train. Right.

I spent a lot of time on my own. Right. Probably too much to be healthy, but that's another story. And that's what I ended up with, that Stockholm. And it's a kind of, I suppose you could say, a way of rebooting my brand. And let's face it, that's what it is these days. You have to keep your thing alive. And, I mean, for example, I did a show at a festival called the latitude festival in london

uh outside of london actually um a few months ago and i was on the same bill as um the black keys and chaim and uh tame impala now if i'd gone out as the pretenders i probably wouldn't have got on that bill they probably would have thought it was too old of a band right but you know because it was just me i kind of snuck in there and it was something different so you know in a way that's why i say it's given me some longevity because i haven't really done that much when you think about it i haven't done as much as like elvis costello's probably made 40 albums i think he's probably putting out one every few months yeah but see i don't i don't i haven't had the time and also i goof off a lot more than he does well how were you received on that bill? Did you feel when you performed?

Good. Yeah? Good. I mean, the audience wasn't really there. I was on probably around one in the afternoon. Oh, right. So it was maybe an older audience. And then Tame Impala, then more kids came in.

And then Chaim. Chaim and, notice how I pronounce it the proper way, girls. My valley girl friends. Chaim. Chaim. They're little valley girls here from LA. They're great? Yeah, they're great. And the reason they're great is because they've been on the road. They took their

shit on the road for the last two years, so they're really playing. They're sisters. They're these little girls from the valley that are, you know, and their dad's Israeli. They're awesome because they're playing. That's it. When a band goes on the road and plays, they get good. Get tight. And I mean, and then the Black Keys, what a success story they are.

Because they've been out doing the same thing. That doesn't happen very much where people work their way up because they get out and they keep playing. But anyway, on this Latitude Festival, I was with an incarnation of this band, the Will Travel Band. Who are those guys? Well, I've now got James Walborn, who was the guy who I've been playing with

in The Pretenders for a few years. And some other guys, a Danish drummer. Solid. Very solid. Chris Sohn. None of the guys that played on that album. See, I had to put a band together to showcase this Stockholm album.

I really wasn't sure how I was going to do that. So what do you do? You rehearsed for how long to get tight? A couple weeks. Yeah. And then, you know, we showcased that album and then from there I didn't know what I was going to do because I didn't really have I wasn't sure what I was going to do but it evolved where I got offered

a few things so I thought, well, I guess if I can do some of my old tunes even though they're pretenders because they're my songs, why not? Why wouldn't you? Well, yeah. So I did that. And then I got some more offers.

Oh, if you're going to do some old stuff, then you can have another gig. Sure. And you know, there's no, I mean, do you feel good playing those songs? Which ones? Your pretender songs? Yeah, as long as the audience is new, of course.

They love it, don't they? They love it. If anyone is, you you know that's how people can i suppose go on stage in a play for two years and do the same play every night because every night's a new audience so it's new it's new again stones well yeah i'm not you know yeah i'm there i always wonder because because even somebody like you who has integrity and you have uh you know a sensibility around what music is, is that there's no...

Well, you don't know that for sure. I kind of do. Well, I'm not. Maybe I'm projecting. But what I'm saying is that there's no shame in playing great songs that are your songs. Well, no. Who's ashamed? Yeah.

I always wondered that. I've been playing them already. Yeah. That's it. But obviously, if you're doing... I mean, like I said, this is an art form that's pretty dumbed down. I mean, you know, you see some people on documentaries and they're playing their tunes to a big audience and think, that's, come on, man. It's not even that good.

Yeah. That happens all the time. Yeah, yeah. You know, and it's just like mega huge. Sometimes they're not even really playing. Well, you know, or you wish they weren't. Yeah. But, you know, and then a lot of these now, because it's all been plundered so much, you see documentaries on the greats.

And they do rewrite their own history where they were the biggest, most important band. And a lot of this was just MOR stuff, you know. I mean, I wish Karen Carpenter was around because she was considered, the Carpenters were considered very saccharine MOR. They weren't taken very seriously middle of the road okay aor i don't know what you call it middle of the road's good i just didn't know it's not very cutting edge right really rock sure um and uh and you wish she was alive for what to get to get her due because she was one of the greatest singers who ever lived yeah people didn't of course she was taken seriously because they sold a lot of records

right and people loved them. But they were categorized. They were categorized as being very much like the Beach Boys. We thought that they were too squeaky clean. Little did we know that they were not very squeaky clean at all. But the music was very all-American. Oh, yeah. It's hard for me to listen to some Beach Boys because I can't handle how heavy Brian's heart is sometimes.

Right, but at the time when they came out, it was all, I wish they all could be Cam, but we were like, what the fuck? Because we were taking, we didn't. Yeah, where's the edge? We thought that was nice. In fact, it wasn't very nice. No, not at all.

We know that now. It's a little brutal. So when you get a bit of hindsight, dare I say, and you can look over with a bit of perspective, you see these things in a different light. ABO, great band, great tunes. Yeah. Not taken seriously at the time because it was a little too nice. Right. But you can't deny a great melody.

No. And you can't deny a good song. No. I was just listening to Tim Harden. Oh, amazing. I can't even fucking deal. I bought this record out of nowhere. Because he was a Vietnam vet.

He was a junkie. I bought a record just on the cover, and I didn't know anything about Tim Harden. Now I know he wrote some great songs, but I just bought this record on a fluke, and I'm like, what is this? And I went down to Tim Harden Rabbit Hole just last night. Oh, amazing. And to watch him perform at Woodstock, he is on the nod heavy. But he had one of the...

See, the thing is, they could sing. He had one of the greatest voices ever, Tim Harden. Yeah. And he wrote those beautiful songs. But the singing thing has changed a lot. It's all changed. Because back then, guys who were 25 years old, they wanted to sound like men. Right. I mean, look at Otis. those beautiful songs but like the singing thing has changed a lot it's all changed because back then guys who were 25 years old they wanted to sound like men right i mean look at otis how

authoritative he was yeah he was gone by the time he was 27 and he had this all of his music you felt this manly authority yeah you know now these guys are like you know 40 and they's still a link little how do you get behind it um so so yeah you're doing what you do and like and i did you ever think to because the one thing that that i asked myself when i listened to it was you know on the slower numbers where the melodies are are you know you know kind of very deliberate and and slower sort of grooves to them. They're very powerful. Did you ever think to do like an entire record of, of, of slower songs or, or,

or not ballads, but just something. Yeah. I got two girls in Akron that would probably come and like lynch me if I did that. You know, I have been warned for years to stay, stay clear of the balance,

you know, keep rocking. Yeah. I mean, the girls that put the pretenders archives together, you know, that'd be, you got to answer to them. At the end of the ballads. Keep rocking. Yeah. I mean, the girls that put the Pretenders archives together. So you've got to answer to them. At the end of the day. They keep a low profile. They kept my thing alive for years

before we had websites or any of that. They were the first ones on it. But if I start getting a little too ballad heavy, then I hear from them. But you thought about it? No, I haven't thought about it. Because no one wants to hear that shit. All right.

All right. I mean, this is, you know, this is supposed to be a rock band. I get it. But, you know, you sneak them in once in a while when you can get away with it. All right. Well, it was great talking to you and have fun on the tour. That's the plan. Do you feel good?

You all right? Sure. All right. Thanks for talking, Chrissy. How cool was that? She's amazing. I was so happy to talk to her. All right.

Go to WTFpod.com for all your WTFpod needs. You can get the app, you know, and upgrade like I told you about at the beginning. I will be at Largo on January 8th. You can go to Largo-LA.com for tickets. Oh, my God. Not for tickets. Oh my god. Not even a day off nicotine. I'm losing my fucking mind. I don't even know if I can play guitar. I know you've all been

waiting for that. Huh. I just moved a bunch of knobs. That was crazy. Notice how clean I'm keeping it? No distortion. You know why? Because I'm not ashamed. I don't need to distort shit.

I'm so not ashamed, I'm just going to hit it and let it repeat itself over and over again. God, just give me a nicotine lozenge. God damn it. God, no! Boomer lives! It's hockey season, and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So, no, you can't get an ice rink on Uber Eats. But iced tea, ice cream, or just plain old ice? Yes, we deliver those. Goal tenders, no. But iced tea, ice cream, or just plain old ice? Yes, we deliver those. Gold tenders,

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