WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 559 - St. Vincent

Episode Date: December 15, 2014

Whether you call her St. Vincent or Annie Clark, all Marc really wants to know in this conversation is how she went from being a guitar-rocking 12-year-old in Oklahoma to one of the most celebrated musicians in the country. Plus, a little tease of Marc's upcoming interview with Andrea Martin, as she and Marc discuss her new memoir, Lady Parts. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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T's and C's apply. Lock the gates! Alright, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fucking ears? What the fucksters? I am Mark Maron.

This is WTF. Welcome to the show. Today on am Mark Maron. This is WTF. Welcome to the show. Today on the show, St. Vincent is here and she's on tour now. She's in Florida, Texas and Oklahoma this week. You can go check her out live. She's a very focused and poised woman and artist. I talked to her for a while and you will hear that conversation maybe go back and listen to some of her older stuff and get back into that mindset of where i used to be back when i was uh sort of uh blowing my mind on experimental music

and art rock and the whatnots doing that when i was in high school listening to the frips and the enos and the friffs and the hassles and the residents for some reason she pushed me back into that in my mind before i met with her i did some of that i did some of that nostalgizing i nostalgized myself in a in a sort of like uh you know that know, that was a different time where, you know, we had, you know, I had my hair cut in ways that might have been considered artistic. I wore pants that might have had ankle straps on them, maybe puffy at the bottom. I wore shirts, perhaps, that you couldn't see the buttons of and buttoned them all the way up to my neck. Yeah, I had two earrings in uh in my ear there might have been that time that i was listening to that music you know the

commitment to getting the second hole in the ear that was a fairly provocative and artistic choice now i just have these vague sort of slight scars where occasionally be a conversation starter not the same as having two earrings in more like did you have did you have two holes in your ear yeah yeah i did wow really yeah yeah it's different time that's the conversation that happens now around the negation of earrings what was once a hole for earrings now just an indicator of a of a time scrambling for a sense of self and hoping the hoops would make it happen those were the days my friends those were the days i had my niece in town this weekend and this is not the niece that was out here before. This is the niece that I bought a guitar for, and she's been playing it, but she'd come

out. And this is a smarty. This girl's a smarty. She's a smarty in high school. She's applying to colleges, but I asked her which classes she likes, and she said calculus. She likes calculus. I don't even know what calculus is i don't even do not here's how i respond to that do you need algebra to get to know calculus she said yeah and i'm like yeah i'm out i'm out nope not happening i i don't know what x is almost ever i don't know she's she's studying biology i think i did all right in biology but she like she aced algebra she she just she's that kind of person she wants to study biology but she's also doing the guitar thing and she's kind of into some arts she has a very limited diet which was

challenging few choices macaroni and cheese a fish or a pizza so uh even though i'm off the cigarettes i i forced myself to eat pizza and that was tough it was tough folks hope you feel bad for me forced myself to eat pizza i take her to the ucb i took my other niece there to the ucb to see ass cat because i i'm not a big improv guy as you know but i'll go and i like the structure of ass cat i've done the monologues for ass cat this is where you have a monologist who comes out and does a story based on a suggestion from the crowd, a personal story. Then five improvisers, four or five improvisers, riff on the story. Then there's a break. Then they do a little more monologue.

And then the improvisers riff on that. And it all comes together in the end. And obviously it's hit or miss but you know usually it's pretty funny uh we were at the ucb uh the old one over on franklin but i gotta tell you man for some reason both times i was there this guy zach woods who i i couldn't like i'm looking at him like i know this guy and he's on silicon valley i guess he's been on the office and stuff but he was at the ucb part of the ass cap both times i saw it this guy's a fucking genius he's hilariously funny and i don't say that about anybody but i was laughing i was i generally kind of like it takes a lot to get me into

the oh god i can't stop laughing place but he did it and it was awkward to me maybe the lack of nicotine is allowing me to have more of that i can't stop laughing place but jesus man this guy is fucking funny i don't know what his story is but wow zach woods he plays the tall guy he's a very awkward um funny dude on on silicon valley but he was tremendous and was a great show so i nailed that and on friday night that was saturday friday we went, I did, I wanted to take her to Sarah Silverman's show and Sarah put me on the show.

So my niece got to see me perform with Sarah and Gerard Carmichael, Kirk Fox, and Tig Notaro. And that was exciting. I don't think my, she definitely liked Tig.

And I don't know, I think she, she indulged me because she was liked Tig and I don't know I think I think she she indulged me because she was staying at my house she said I was funny but very interesting to to realize that this girl this teenager uh is uh quite you know is much smarter than me in several different ways and I can't even recommend that she try to get as smart as I am in the ways that she isn't smart that's that's being a good uncle. You know what? You're doing great. Nothing. I, nothing I've put myself through is necessarily of any value to you. I hope good luck with your medical career. Don't, don't get swayed away on some other trajectory by insecurity or uncontrollable desire,

unless you want to live the life of an artist. Oh, you know what? I wanted to do this for my friend, Andrea Martin, who I love, who's a comedic genius. I talked to her. Okay. I talked to Andrea Martin and that interview will be up soon, but her book is out already.

I should say it's been out it's her memoir it's called Lady Parts it's available now and if you want a good holiday gift for a comedy fan or just for yourself pick up a copy it's hilarious she's really one of the funniest people in the world in this clip we're talking about how hard it is to sell books because I've had a couple books so hopefully this will make it a little easier enjoy this clip, we're talking about how hard it is to sell books, because I've had a couple books. So hopefully this will make it a little easier. Enjoy this clip. And again, the interview will be up soon.

And the book, this just came out, right? Lady Parts? Yeah. And people liking it? People seem to. Do they ever tell you they don't? That would be bad. Are people buying it? Ah, that's Do they ever tell you they don't? That would be bad. Are people buying it?

Ah, that's a different story. Those are two different questions. You're not going to know for about a year. Is that true? Who the hell knows what books? I've written books. You just don't know. But the great thing about books is it's out there forever and then out of nowhere.

Five years from now, people are like, I just read your book. Like, where were you when it came out? Here's a great thing. Yes, it has been a learning curve for like, I just read your book. Like, where were you when it came out? Here's a great thing. Yes, it has been a learning curve for me, certainly, this book. Because you put your heart and soul in it, as you know. And then, really? 40 million people are buying. They don't want to hear my precious words that took me like a lifetime to reveal.

So, first of all, you've got to let your ego go that's number one yeah books are hard but um i'll tell you what has been gratifying to me i really wrote this book thinking that i was reaching a demographic of women over 50 thinking i was talking to them and um the young people that um are moved by this. Or not even comedy. I just did an interview with a beautiful young girl. She went to school with my son at Kenyon. She's 31.

And she interviewed me for the Hollywood Reporter podcast. And she was, you know, her eyes filled up. You know, young. I don't know what it is. I don't know if it's because I talk about being a young girl starting out or if it's just truthful and authentic and people gravitate toward authenticity. But that's been very gratifying. So I have to keep reminding myself of that when I see Lena Dunham on number one and I'm 19,454 on amazon.com. Wow, that seems to be really low down the list. That could change if someone buys two books. No, how about that crazy addiction?

Don't look at that. Oh, that is a bottomless pit of despair. Because it changes. It's not based on anything. What is it based on? It's based on if somebody buys 10 copies of your books, it can go up to 10,000 points. Like it's just based on, I think that Amazon number is just based on per day sales. Oh, wow. Through Amazon. Wow. like it's just based on i think that that amazon number is just based on per day sales through that through amazon wow like it's i think it's really that simple that like it's really just based on

like if someone went and bought like if right now someone went and bought five books yeah it would go up like 200 oh my don't judge on oh no i can't oh no that's like the chat rooms it's the word those are two places to go have you been there too't. Oh, no, that's like the chat rooms. It's the worst. Those are two places to go. Have you been there, too? And Broadway, I have. Oh, come on. Yeah, that's a disastrous thing. Come on. Yeah.

Who the hell is doing, who the hell is on comment boards for Broadway shows? Old people? And they're mean to you? No, they're not mean. Oh, good. You can find anything mean

if you comb those things long enough. Sure, sure. If you're that desperate, I'm not going to stop until I really read something devastating. That hurts me. What is that about?

I don't know, but I do it. Don't you? Yeah. What is it about then? It's the constant need for val-a-fuck-and-ation. Still happening. What the hell? Still happening.

That's why I've got to buy Pema Chodron's new book. I'm sure I'm pronouncing that wrong. The Beautiful Buddhist Nun. Yeah. And her sales will go up if I do that. Sure. But I can guarantee you one thing. She's not checking Amazon.com.

She shouldn't be. No. She doesn't need to. She's not going to tell anybody if she is. That'd be interesting. Yeah. I don't know if I would assume that she's not, though. Yeah.

I mean, some of those people, you know what goes on inside, really? Well, that's the truth. You never really know. All those people that are fighting the though yeah i mean some of those people you know you don't know what goes on inside really well that's the truth you never really know all those people that are fighting the good fight and seem like real zen masters they might be secretly just festering fighting the good fight yeah that's a great thing to say actually because i do feel that sometimes life is a battle and you have to fight it's horrendous sometimes it's beautiful but it's it's interesting to me that i think that probably speaks to a little bit why that woman at The Hollywood Reporter, a younger woman. Yeah. Because, I mean, in terms of women role models and people that persevere despite, you know, all odds and especially in the business that we're in and continue to work.

I mean, it's a very moving story for people. You know, no matter, you know, whatever you come from. Yeah. The sort of weird persistence that it takes, whether it's a need for validation or a need to connect or whatever it is. I mean, it's very easy to get defeated in this racket, either by yourself or others. Yeah, it is. I think most people fall on the wayside because they've lost the fight within themselves to keep moving forward. Talent is a tricky thing, man.

And you have it in spades and you've always had it. And it's clear that it manifested itself very early, but it was undeniable. Well, thank you, but I think talent's overrated, actually. Here's what I think kind of keeps people going.

The sheer joy and curiosity at what I'm going to create, and I don't mean to be a Pollyanna or undermine the unbelievable struggles people have, because your listeners are going to say, you think that's all it takes? I have a lot of joy about my, look, I think luck has a lot to do with it. I think talent, perseverance. But for me, it's trying to look at this business as a business, not personally, and try to keep, although I have it in spite of myself, a great excitement, enthusiasm for people and things.

And you've always had that? I have always had that. Yes, I have. Were there periods in your life where it was like, that's diminishing? No, there were great periods where i'm sad or feel lonely or um have to struggle with anxiety that i struggle with or uh sure look this is look at i had an opening last night of pippin i'm talking to you i have a book out i'm about to start a movie night in a music look it's a lovely time in my life but i's great. But I had to switch gears at a certain point, Mark.

I had to, really when I reached 65, I'm 67 now, because I was saying no to a lot of things. And it wasn't bringing me any joy. And who the hell cared if I was saying, you think people out there are like, oh, Andrea Martin said no to that career offer. Nobody gives a shit what I'm doing. That's another thing that really keeps you sane. Every time you think somebody's thinking about you, trust me, they got other things to think about. Oh my God, 100%. So that was a relief, reassuring, you know?

It's me and Andrea Martin. Look forward to that interview here on WTF. What else is happening? Let's talk now to the amazing St. Vincent here in the garage. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5pm

in Rock City at torontorock.com. Calgary is an opportunity-rich city home to innovators, dreamers, disruptors, and problem solvers. The city's visionaries are turning heads around the globe across all sectors each and every day. They embody Calgary's DNA. A city that's innovative, inclusive, and creative. And they're helping put Calgary and our innovation ecosystem on the map as a place where people come to solve some of the world's greatest challenges. Calgary's on the right path forward. Take a closer look out at calgaryeconomicdevelopment.com. How long have you been living in New York? I've been bouncing around New York for probably, what year is this? Probably like eight years.

Yeah? Yeah. And have you seen a change? I mean, because I was there in like the late 80s. Oh, yeah. Now it's like, what's going on here? I mean, I sort of missed, I mean, I was just talking about Williamsburg yesterday because my bandmate, Toko Yas Yasuda was in a band called Enon which was like

part of that whole like post 9-11 New York Williamsburg scene like yeah yeah yeahs and TV and the radio I didn't know

that was like what was it was there was actually a scene that was like called the post 9-11 Williamsburg scene

no it's just their hypothesis that that that scene kind of, it's not, the scene existed, but like the media was very excited to shine a spotlight on it. The AAS, I remember them.

Yeah. They're around. Didn't she just put out a record? Yeah, she did. You know, I just saw her with David Byrne. She played a solo show at La Poste La Rouge in New York. That's where I tape my special.

That used to be the Village Gate. Yeah. Back in the day. I keep saying back in the day like I'm an old guy. Oh, yeah. I New York. That's where I tape my special. That used to be the Village Gate. Yeah. Back in the day. I keep saying back in the day like I'm an old guy. Oh, yeah. No, you're not. That's fine. So, well, your record, I listened to the new record.

I listened to all your records. I crammed my life with you. My head. I'm sorry. No, don't be sorry. I mean, I'd gotten the new record a while back and I'd listened to it and I liked it because, you know, you can dance to it in your car and it seems like

it feels like a dance record. Is it possible that it's a dance record in some way? Yeah it's kind of a dance record. It is right? Yeah. Like it reminded me of being at clubs that I was never at when I was younger. It reminded me of like you know like New York clubs but then I went

further back and then I looked at pictures of you from when you were younger holding guitars. Oh, Jesus. No, I like pictures. Like, because now like you're, the picture, it's interesting, just the pictures, the evolution of pictures of you.

What? Why are you looking grimacing? No, it's just the internet is a cemetery, but nothing ever dies. You know, it's just like, oh, God, you know. Yeah, yeah. This active ghosts of you everywhere. Yeah.

That's a good way to put it. It is a cemetery where, yeah, where everything's on view. Yeah. Yeah. All the tombs are open. It's just constant post-mortem, yeah. Yeah. No, but it's interesting to see that there's this just evolution in how you were presenting yourself? Because now it's almost, there seems to be a very calculated way

of how you're like, this is the future, and this is me now. What was the evolution of that? What's the new look? What's the new look? Well, I dyed my hair like a year and a half ago. Great. Well, no.

I tried to go like, you know, cool, punk rock, platinum blonde, but I totally failed. I missed the mark. My friend came over and did it. I was writing the record in Austin and my friend came over and did it. And it was like orange. It was horrifying. Right. And so it was a series of like mistake after mistake after mistake

right yellow like straw yellow yeah um and eventually i kind of right around the time of the press photos i landed on on a gray kind of a purpley gray i mean it sounds kind of more complicated and contrived than it was. It was like, I was watching the bachelor and like David Bowie videos from the late seventies. And I was like, Oh,

that sounds like a good idea. Which, which ones? Well, like the, um, the young Americans tour. Yeah.

Cause that's a funny one. Cause those videos, like his, um, Dick Cavett performance. He's so emaciated. He was, he's like,

yeah. To see him. Like it almost feels like it's like, he's like a wated. He was. It's like frightening. Yeah. To see him, it almost feels like he's like a wisp of a person. Yeah, just a little esper. Yeah. Yeah, and that video cracks me up because it's like

everybody's in business casual. It's like just got off the job from the bank and now I've wandered on to the Dick Cavett show. It's so funny. It was almost like dandy-ish, but not. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, he was good at straddling all those lines. I don't. He's the best. Yeah. He's the only one, really. I mean, that can continue to do it.

Now he seems to kind of be resigned in being an older man. Well, I thought. Is he sick? Do you know? I don't know. But I thought the story was, I thought that he had a heart attack on stage. Recently. Well, I don't know if it was recently, but then decided to retire.

Oh. I think that that's public information. No, no. I heard he was ill, but I didn't know. He didn't drop, I guess. Maybe it was a little heart attack, because we would have all known if he fell down and had a heart attack. But I also was a big Bowie fan when i was younger and i still it's still sort of fascinating to me how he did that how he did straddle all that from all these different looks so he had a big impact

on you oh big time all the way back like when was the first ones uh like the first bowie song where you're like holy shit actually my first introduction to Bowie was Aladdin Sane. Right. And just that like really totally insane piano playing from Mike Garson. Right. Yeah, I think David Bowie said about Mike Garson, he's the best rock piano player, keyboard player, because he's not a rock keyboard player. Did you work with him? I did, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was in a band called the Polyphonic Spree when I was a kiddo. Right, so it was you and 90 people. It was me and 90 people. And there was like, Red Bull was really big. I just remember drinking so much Red Bull vodka. It was like new then. Yeah.

Red Bull was the thing. It was the thing. Yeah. And you just like get super jacked up on Red Bull and vodka and then go act like a maniac. Yeah, and there was like full choirs right yeah i mean the i joined in 2005 because i had i dropped out of school um i was at berkeley college of music i dropped out of school and then i didn't tell my parents but i moved to new york um trying to i you know like doing that thing where you think you're gonna go go to New York and make it.

Of course, you know, even then New York was way too expensive. What year was that? That was 2004. Okay. Yeah. Wait, let's go back. So where'd you grow up? I was born in Tulsa, Oklahoma.

Yeah? Yeah. Have you done comedy in Tulsa? I have once. Really? Where? I can't remember if it was Tulsa or Oklahoma City. Where does Wayne live? Oh, Wayne lives in Oklahoma City.

Yeah. I was in Oklahoma City, but I grew up in New Mexico, so I'd driven through Tulsa. Yeah. Where in New Mexico? Albuquerque. Oh. Yeah. I grew up there from third grade through high school.

So I'm kind of familiar with the Southwest, kind of like Oklahoma, oklahoma texas colorado arizona thing because i was in the middle of there i used to go to new mexico a whole lot where uh i used to go to taos new mexico go hiking yeah it's beautiful yeah it's wonderful yeah uh i used to go skiing there yeah too scared to ski i'm not a scared no no you're frightened of skiing yeah horses anything love horses but not skiing. Love horses. In fact, once when we were a little, I don't remember, I must have been like seven, we went to a dude ranch in Colorado. And I, you know, when you're seven, you just fall in love with the horse that you're assigned

for the whatever. You went with your family? Yeah, I went with my family. For like two weeks or something? Yeah, I think it was like a, it was like kind of one of those like like sorry for the divorce like kind of vacations so you went with one side of the yeah exactly and uh and i remember just being so enamored of of this horse and thinking oh i'm gonna ride off into the sunset and so i packed i got back to dallas Dallas and I was just fantasizing about Silverado. Who's in Dallas?

That's where my mom and stepdad. Silverado you're fantasizing about? Yeah. So I got this idea in my head that I was going to go find Silverado and we would just ride off into the sunset. So I packed a little backpack, you know, full of clothes and fruit. That was the horse's name? Yeah, that was the horse's name.

And then. Oh, so that's cute but then like many things i just forgot about it and so i'd had this i had this one day like six months later i was um my room was just really smelling and i i found the backpack just full of like fetid fruit i was like oh yeah The big plans. Dude Ranch, that's so weird because that's such a Western thing. I think my family went to a Dude Ranch and I had not thought about it. Tank of Verde Ranch was the name of the Dude Ranch. Yeah.

And all I remember is finding a dead snake. Wow. Yeah. And arrowheads. Arrowheads were a big part of life. Yeah, but you never knew if it was really an arrowhead. I mean, youheads. Arrowheads were a big part of life. Yeah. But you never knew if it was really an arrowhead. I mean, you'd look a lot and yeah, it's kind of like one, you know, there's a lot of rocks that were questionable arrowheads. That was a lot of

growing up in the Southwest. Yeah. So, all right. So you were born in Tulsa, but how long did your family live in Oklahoma? Cause like Oklahoma is like some serious cowboy shit. It's yeah. Um, I, I moved to Dallas when I was seven. So my parents divorced when I was three, four, somewhere in there. And then my mom remarried, moved us to Dallas and my dad stayed in Tulsa, Oklahoma and remarried and had more kids and stuff.

You got a bunch of half brothers and sisters. I do, and step brothers and sisters. Wow. So you get along with the folks? Yeah. My mother's a fucking saint. Yeah.others and sisters. Wow. So you get along with the folks? Yeah. My mother's a fucking saint. Yeah. She's amazing.

Yeah. And my stepdad's a really good guy. And my dad is a complicated dude. What was his trip? He's, you know, I think at some point he just started to value things that I don't think are that valuable, like money. Oh, that shit. Yeah, yeah.

What did he do? What was his thing? He was involved in, he worked for Dean Witter in the 80s. He's kind of on that trip. The money trip. Kind of on that trip. Yeah, nothing tangible, just money. Yeah, I mean, he's kind of on that trip the money trip get on that trip yeah yeah not nothing

tangible just money yeah i mean he's a brilliant guy yeah anglophile you know can recite james joyce and oh yeah yeah he's brilliant totally brilliant guy so he's a like hyper educated appreciator of literature yes definitely you know my i'd get like a Kingsley Amos book for Christmas and be like 10. And I'm trying to read this British satire that you have to know about the aristocracy and the whole British culture. And I had no context for that. So it didn't read a satire and it was just boring as hell. Right. I've gone back and reread that stuff.

But and I get it now. But it's sort of good that at least he was inappropriate intellectually yeah exactly but it was uh instead of uh instead of a like a first communion or anything he got me bertrand russell's why i'm not a christian and just thank god or thanks not god yeah yeah so there was not you didn't grow up with that because there's like some of your songs, there's some Jesus-y stuff. Well, you mentioned Jesus. Yeah, I'm weirdly super into it.

I mean, not as a, I'm agnostic as a person. Right, agnostic. So you definitely differentiate between atheism, agnostic, and belief. Well, I'm kind of with Louis C.K. on that. Well, I'm kind of with Louis C.K. on that. Isn't the world so much more wonderful if you are open to the possibility of magic? Yeah, sure. No, I'm with you.

I'm with you. Why close the door? Why close the door? Why be that kind of cranky, control freaky kind of person? Yeah. Who else was I talking to? I can't remember. Oh, it was actually Maynard.

Maynard Keene. He has a winery. I know. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I was at a Whole Foods in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, three years ago, just stocking up on hippie shit. And I saw a little, they were handing out flyersers like Maynard will be here giving a wine and I was just like what he's all about it man that's it that's his thing now but it's Arizona

wine yeah yeah and Jerome he's up in Jerome I know I know I you know look I I had him in here and you know I wasn't a huge tool guy we ended up talking about when he worked at a pet store we talked about parrots for 20 minutes wow but. But we were talking about magic and art. I think he brought up the fact that it's hard to be a good artist if you don't believe in magic on some level. Yeah. Well, yeah, because it is kind of magic, isn't it? But you're hung up on Jesus?

Not really. It's just a shorthand mythology. It's like everybody knows those stories. And I grew up in an environment you know not my not my specific family my specific family in oklahoma and in dallas you're definitely surrounded by it oh yeah because my dad's whole side of the family is is super catholic and um so there was that right that side and you know my grandmother had us all baptized but know, there were so many fucking grandkids cause they, she had 11 kids.

So by the time it came around to me, she just kind of like, there's a great story about her. She just baptized me in the kitchen sink with a cigarette in her hand. You know, how was she? Any grandma just baptized? I mean,

Hey, when you're, when you have like 30, uh, grandchild, grandchildren. Yeah, you just get it done. Get the Bible, get the sync. Get it done. So that was the Catholic side?

Yeah, that was the Catholic side. And then my mom didn't, oddly enough, she grew up in Tulsa, Oklahoma, but wasn't raised with any kind of religion. And so she went to Unitarian church and stuff growing up. Oh, that's pleasant. Yes, it's like. The Unitarians. Just like, hey, how about compassion? Yeah.

So that's kind of where I come into. Well, now there's this whole gutted sort of Christianity. It's like the Catholic tradition is so ornate and deep and dense. And then like somewhere in Texas, someone's just sort of like, we don't need all that shit. We just need Jesus. Yeah. And like somewhere in Texas, someone's just sort of like, we don't need all that shit. We just need Jesus.

Yeah. I definitely grew up with, you know, with a lot of religiosity around that. I, you know, I felt like it wasn't the kind of thing that you bring up. You know, people just kind of assume, oh, you're you're white and you're lower middle class or middle class. You are a Christian. Right. It's just what you are. That's what happens in texas in texas yeah like even a couple of girls from my school who were jewish conferred you know converted to christianity just to just to kind of like fit in you know oh

the past there's a lot of you know there's just a lot of assumption of you know about about uh belief and and i remember being in like seventh grade and I had a good friend who's such a sweetheart, really sweet person, good person. And for my birthday, she got me a teen study Bible. And so I started kind of thumbing through it, you know, skimming, skimming it, you know, next to like Bertrand Russell

and Martin Amis essays. I'm like, okay, this is cool. So I had some questions. I was like, well, what about, because it was more the evangelical bent. And I like well okay so what happens you know for people who've never heard about jesus and i was like well they're going to hell you know yeah it was like what happens to animals do animals have a soul where they you know they're going to hell if they don't you know if this if the dog doesn't find jesus straight yes and then probably there was that moment where you're like well hell how bad could it be like hey people who don't, you know, if the dog doesn't find Jesus. Straighten that out. Yes. And then probably there was that moment where you're like, well, hell, how bad could it be?

Like, hey. People who don't know about God and animals there. Yeah, the puppies, whatever. Hell is full of puppies. Yeah. Hell is for puppies. Let's make that shirt. But you were never, like, because I find that, you know, when I think about it now, like, you know you know i'm 50 and i i'm you know i've talked about it on stage a lot about belief and everything i get it you know i get why it must be comforting to believe

but if you weren't brought up with it after a certain point it's like that's quite a leap yeah you gotta you know the the shit has gotta gone pretty bad to get to that point of desperation where you're like i don't know where else to turn but to magic. Yeah. Yeah. No, I'm with you. So do you consider yourself a spiritual person, though, in any way? I mean, no. No?

No. I mean, I don't, you know. You shop at Whole Foods. Well, on tour. Yeah, yeah. I don't, you know. You got some hippie in you? In the sense of, like, I deal with with i make my living like creating castles in the sky out of you know yeah ether so yeah of course and i have you know i have a sense of that that being compassionate

is the best way to be you know like that you know david foster wallace kenyon college things yeah okay yeah yeah there you go you know that that kind of sums it up too yeah so you know when when did you start playing guitar i was 12 yeah yeah and what kind of guitar was it uh first i got a like a three-quarter classical guitar which i thought was... The nylon string. Yeah, the little one, yeah. I thought it was so... Like, I really... It was one of those things, you know, when your parent is being so...

Because we didn't have a lot of money. Right. My mom and stepdad, but... What'd he do? Like, he was... He had some kind of job. He's like a... Like these vague jobs.

He's... Well, he was an engineer for a long time you know like a when just a really bright guy yeah everything about history um and then we moved to dallas and he immediately lost his job somehow yeah i don't remember what like procter and gamble i don't remember what it was but um what like procter and gamble i don't remember what it was but um he uh so he was doing kind of odd jobs for a few years and then he started uh i mean i guess it's like a kind of a low rent tax business oh okay i don't even know if he's a cpa like i don't even know like a strip mall tax business yeah yeah and your mom how many siblings did you have in the immediate world in the media uh my mom had three girls.

I was the youngest of three girls. With all with the same pop? Yeah. And what'd they end up doing? They're amazing. They're my best friends. Really? Yeah.

All of them, you guys hang out and laugh? They're fucking rad. They're wonderful people. You got nieces and nephews and things? Yeah, I got that. So I spend a lot of time in Texas where they are. Texas! Yeah!

You know, I've grown to like Texas. Like, I talk about that on the show a lot about the South and everything. Like, I was adverse to it because it's easy to judge. But Texas is really its own thing, man. I fucking love it. Yeah, there's nothing not to love. I love it. When you grow up in New Mexico and you ski and you do things recreationally, you grow to despise Texans.

Because they're always there, over-equipped, with the gaudy outfits and cars. Classic. Yeah, and just sort of like loud. And it's sort of like, go back. Go back to Texas. But the more I go there, just the spaces of the place and also the fact that it does have its own thing and it it is sort of initially annoying how people are the pride the texan pride is an annoying thing but then you realize like well there's nothing like it really you know texas is i mean they've got some draconian shit going on with politically but it's a wonderful place. What about it?

I don't... Other than it's home. You know, in interviews and stuff, I often get asked about like, well, what's it, what's it, especially overseas, because Texas is sort of both maligned and exotic. So I, you know, there's just something... Character.

Character. Also, you know what? People are down to earth. I think that's true. People are down to earth. Even if somebody has money or doesn't have money or whatever, you treat everybody the same way. Or at least that's my experience of it. I think also, I see it in the South, too.

They're down to earth, but there's a politeness. They may be down to earth, but there's a lot unsaid generally speaking right yeah yes and and and you grow to appreciate well i appreciate you being polite because i know that there's something else going on in there there's definitely some judgment happening and i appreciate your down-to-earth capacity to not dump that on me and just go talk about me at home with your family there's that annie is that she's a little weird but they're not but they're not going to do that to your face nope thank you yeah yeah well all right so you're playing guitar at 12 and you got your little nylon string guitar and you're you're learning how to play guitar so it doesn't hurt your fingers

and uh i traded up pretty quick though i traded up for an electric guitar what was your first electric guitar it was a pv raptor and it was one of those like 150 it's in the case with the you get the gig bag and the little cord and the and the amplifier little pv amplifier yeah like the little one yeah where and it has a button on it that says lead and it's just like the most hellacious yeah yeah distortion so distortion sound yeah yeah yeah oh yeah well what were you listening to at 12 um you know at 12 i was obsessed with nirvana pearl jam steely dan jethro tull led zeppelin yeah jimmy hendrix right so sort of like yeah it's like a weird cross-section of how old are you do you say that yeah i'm i'll be i'm 31 i'll be 32 pretty soon so you're young so that was all happening i've

been on the road for like 10 years i don't i mean I mean, I feel. Right, so you're beat up. I feel Peter Pan-like. I don't feel old by any means, but I'm just like. But yeah, but like just contextually, like Nirvana was happening. I mean, some of that stuff was happening when you were 12 or 13. Absolutely. It was happening before, you know. I was nine when Nevermind came out. Oh, really?

Ten when Pearl Jam 10 came out. I was on the Lower East Side and wondering how the world had changed. It was weird when Nevermind came out. You're just walking around and everywhere, you just heard Teen Spirit and you're like, what the fuck just happened? Yeah.

Like, everything's different now. Yeah, it's crazy. I don't know if anything will ever feel like that again. It will. You think so? If you let it, sure. Yeah.

It's harder to find music. But I mean, that kind of sea change, that like, you know, what happened in my school was that everybody who was wearing pol sea change that yeah you know what happened in my school was that everybody who was wearing polo shirts and a you know a conservative haircut right was wearing a nirvana t-shirt and a flannel went to the flannel grow the hair out yeah exactly like they made it okay but it was instant it was overnight yeah a high school change for everybody there was a new

there was a new click on the quad yeah totally yeah so punk rock wasn't on the per it wasn't in your lexicon that at that time not at 12 not at 12 i was like you know i was tall that's i was in the classic rock you know nothing wrong with that i was just there that's where my brain was well that's where you take in i just was realizing that last night. I made this CD for my show. And it's amazing how, like, your musical taste. I mean, where else are you going to get it unless you've got some weirdo in your family who's going to be like, hey, have you ever heard The Residents? Exactly.

And, you know, you need one of those people. But even now, since I've gotten back into vinyl, there's just so much music that I have no fucking idea, man. How are you going to know that it's all out there unless some weirdo guides you and that's the thing i mean that's eventually when i was a little bit older you know 13 14 my mom used to drive me to the cd store yeah you just play the game of trying to impress the guy sure behind the counter yeah that guy's very important absolutely you know next thing you know you're know, you try to like Zappa. That should be a memoir.

I'm trying to like Zappa. I'm really trying. Who is that guy at the CD store? You know what? It's funny. Life kind of circles around, but his name is Chris Penn, and he ended up being the tour manager slash, I don't know, co-manager or something of the Polyphonic Spree. He was...

What? Yeah, he was that dude who was like, hey, check out, God, Solex. Check out Chibamato. Check out, buy this Sonic Youth record. When you were 13? Yeah, 13, 14. Hey.

That's amazing. And that was in Dallas? That was in Dallas. Hey, what about Nick Cave? Thank God for that guy. Check out PJ Harvey Harvey all that stuff oh do you realize how important he was

he's massively important that I have to say not to bring up age but at this point in life I keep looking back and just going like thank God for my high school theater teacher

who made us read the New York Times every week like thank God for Chris Penn who hit me to all this shit that I just wouldn't have it wasn't on the airwaves so I wouldn't even your old like thank god for chris penn who hit me to all this shit that i just wouldn't have it wasn't on the airwaves so even your old man thank god for martin amos yeah no love love my pops yeah you know that but those guys are are amazing and he and he ended up well because

probably they're from austin right they're dallas they're dallas oh they're all dallas so it's all right there yeah but you didn't know them when you were in high school. No, because I was younger. I mean, I knew Tripping Daisy, which was the band. Right. The Pauly Fox Free kind of. Because they were around. Yeah.

I saw Tripping Daisy play at Trees seven times or whatever. Trees. Do you remember that place? Well, I do remember that place. I think I did a show there. You did Comedy of Treats. Yes. It's, it's a, I mean, there's a giant pillar right in the middle of the audience.

It's like the worst design place. I think I did do that when I was touring with, who was I with? What was I doing? A live WTF or something? But yeah, I was there. I was at that place place it's like a famous place yeah it was there when you were in high school yeah before that yeah and they had all ages shows or you don't remember i don't remember i don't remember if i had to finagle my way in or

not so you were a theater girl in high school i did i did it made me so nervous it made me so nervous i hate it like it was one of those things that i i i loved it but i hated it because i didn't like to be on stage but i loved you know hearing about stanislavski and it was also kind of like it was also the aside from marching band which is its own you didn't do that. No, I did jazz band. Yeah.

Yeah. You play guitar in the jazz band. I did. In high school. Poorly. Right. Can you read music? No.

You can't? Uh-uh. I mean, I can like sound it. It's like, you know, first grade level, like sounded out.

But you riff pretty heavy on the guitar because I was listening to your songs. Like with all the, you know, the other stuff going on, I can hear the, you know, there's some pretty beefy riffs under there there's riffage i found it i was like i wonder if that's her and that weird sounding guitar is it usually it's always me i know every i've never i'm the only one who's ever played guitar on my records that's like i feel a little bit like you know i mean there are guitar players who i

love who i'd love to play with at some point but right but it's weird because the music you're making is not guitar music per se no but it's in there and you make it sound different you know you you like you're not you like to make the noises on the guitars or make it distorted a bit and totally i just look at it like a noisemaker. You do? Yeah. Was it always that way? Or was there a time where you're like?

No, you know, my uncle's this finger style, a brilliant jazz guitar player named Tuck Andrus. And he's, you know, he's like a one man symphony on the guitar, plays these old Gibson L5s and is just a master, like literal master of his craft. And so I started touring with them and was their tour manager for a little while. How old were you then? I was 16 the first time I like. You were a tour manager at 16?

Well, they worked me into it. I had small jobs at first. And then by the time I was 20, I would go out on tour with them in Europe for five weeks. Really? Yeah. I'd have to. And they're so meticulous.

Like, we were basically flying every day. There was no sleep. I've never been more tired than when I was tour managing them. Because they just worked their asses off. How many were in it? Tuck and Patty. It's a duo. It's just them.

And he plays and she sings? Or how's it work? He plays and she sings. And they have a following? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, they had a big record in the early 90s, late 80s, early 90s on Wyndham Hill Records. So they were kind of a spectral part of my childhood. They were just like the heroes in the mist until I was 15 and 16. And they saw that I was interested in music and wanted to kind of show me the ropes.

You got lucky with grownups. Totally. Because, I mean, given where you come from, it could have gone a different direction. Oh, my God. I remember when I moved back from New York the first time when I really could only afford to stay there for like six weeks. And I moved back and my sister, my older sister, was trying to be totally supportive and sweet. I'd move back in with my parents. She was like, well, why don't you just get a job at Starbucks and try to save up some money?

I was like, oh. But you knew you wanted to do it though, right? Yeah, yeah. I've always wanted to do it. So it was never going to be that. It was never going to be that, no. It's hard to explain what the hell that is, that inner commitment to expressing yourself and committing to it as opposed to just sort of like, yeah, that'll never happen.

Like that switch. Yeah. It's weird because you can't learn that. It's got to be something you're driven to. It's just there. You can't have a plan B. No, exactly. But you don't even think of it.

Exactly. That's the weird thing that people don't get. There are people that are sort of like, well, I better take care of this. But people who are like us, you're like, I don't know. That's not even like, I can't even imagine it. Yeah. Thank God. Again, I said, thank God.

We're on the fence about it. Praise him. Yeah. Just praise him. Hallelujah. Amen. Can I get a witness? Yeah. Thank God. Again, I said thank God. We're on the fence about it. Praise him. Yeah, sure. Just praise him. Hallelujah. Amen. Can I get a witness? Yeah.

All right, so let's go through it because it's a pretty interesting trajectory here. So you're running around Europe with your uncle, amazed at his finger picking. Was that daunting to you? Did he teach you tricks? Did he teach you how to play guitar? We didn't have a lot of formal lessons. I watched him and then I kind of developed my own finger style because I mostly play finger style. Really?

Yeah. I play a lot with a pick now just, you know, depending on the song. But I used to just be like trying to be a finger style, not exactly jazz guitar player, but, you know, kind of funky thing. Yeah, right. So, yeah, that's where, I mean. And so you're running around these clubs in Europe and you're backstage and what are your tasks? Well. Did you tune the guitars?

I didn't. Yeah, I did do that. My job was after every flight, I would go and take the gear. You know, he had like a rack gear kind of thing. I would take it. I would have the VU, the voltage meter. I would test it. I would make sure that it was working after the flight, that it didn't get knocked around.

And then I would go to the sound check and I would set it up and I would make sure there were towels and water and whatever they needed backstage. I would interface with the club. You're like a kid. Yeah. I mean, you know, I would make sure there were fresh flowers here. If the room, if we checked into the room and it was shitty, you go down and say, hey, listen, it's too smoky or whatever. It's moldy. We need another room.

What else? it's too smoky or whatever it's moldy we need another room um what else like uh sometimes i one time in italy i had to just kind of get up in somebody's face who was being so inappropriate how so just was it she was a reporter and she was super pushy and an italian a pushy italian imagine imagine yeah and but it was a funny situation because you know what it's like i and she was super pushy. An Italian, a pushy Italian. Go figure. Imagine, imagine. Yeah. But it was a funny situation because you know what it's like. Well, actually, I am curious. So when you're out there gigging,

do you have time to see people before, after shows? Are you a hermit or do you? No, I'll talk to everybody. You talk to, so you don't need that like hour before the gig to get centered and do. No, sometimes I'll actually wander around in the audience. Yeah. Before I go on.

And just shoot the shit with people. Not really. Sometimes I'll just kind of look around. Like there's some part of me that's sort of like, you know, I don't want there to be this weird transition to stage. I don't want a fourth wall at all. Yeah. transition to stage. I don't want, I don't want a fourth wall at all. Yeah. So I like to kind of like just be present around when they're coming in or just kind of in the back of the room. And if people see me, they'll be like, Hey, and I'm like, what's up? That is super fascinating. Have

you ever had really inappropriate like interactions with people today? No. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, give it time. Yeah. Like how? Like, um, um i don't know somebody just coming up to you and and being shitty well not really shitty it's hard to read people sometimes but generally if they're at my show and they're there to see me or they they usually come knowing a lot about me because of the podcast and you know they do have a relationship with me and i have to honor that as much as i can without it but sometimes i can get a little odd because they do know me and I don't know them at all and I and I'm not that good with boundaries so a lot of times I'll just sort of like yeah sure man you know what's up and they'll tell me stories and stuff but not to like sometimes if people don't know me in comedy

like you get a sense of like you can read a room or you think you can where you're sort of like that table's gonna be trouble there's a bunch of bros over there and they seem a little shit-faced already. But a lot of times you're wrong. But not too inappropriate, no. I've had experiences in my life where people have done shit. Come on stage or yelled stuff. It happens. Yeah.

Yeah. What are you referring to? No, nothing. I was actually just curious because, I don't know, I wondered what's your process like to perform? It's interesting that you, instead of needing that, like, oh, I just have to kind of zero in and focus, you actually need to be around people and kind of warm up that way. I like it. Oh, I like that. Yeah, I like having people around. I don't know what the hell I would do with that hour.

You know, I don't take that hour any other point in my life, you know, with preparation. You know, I don't like, I like it to be sort of raw and as intimate as possible. And I don't know what's going to happen. But now as I get older, it's like that's a little emotionally exhausting. I'd like to just go up there with an outfit and an instrument.

You know what I mean? And not, this is what I'm presenting you. That's all you're getting is what I'm presenting you. I hope you like it. I'm not relying on you for my emotional sustenance. I've created this art. Take it. Do you rely?

I mean, obviously, you have to have the feedback of people laughing or clapping or whatever it is, but do you rely on, like, is a big part of your self-worth tied to, you know, I killed last night or fuck, I bombed last night. Like, do you ride that emotional roller coaster? It's not a per laugh thing. It's just a connection thing. You know, if I feel connected or if the room feels or or something happens that wouldn't have happened any other time i seem to rely a lot on that like to get to a place of vulnerability where i don't know really what's

going to happen i like that it's not the most sellable uh trait it's like i mean it's not the most sellable well i mean it's sort of like uh what do you do well I just get up there and I hope I get open enough for something to happen. That sounds like a great show. What if it doesn't get that open? Well, I got other stuff. But for me, you know. But is it, I mean, because often there's such a chasm between the objective or the audience's reaction or feeling towards a show and your own subjective feeling about a show. I mean,

it's, I'm sure it's happened for you that you walk off stage and you're like, Oh my God, that was the worst. And then, and then people, people come up after and they say that was, or you have a friend you trust.

He was like, well, are you kidding? You killed. And the inverse is true. Well, that's why I've learned to keep my mouth shut because my perception, and this is something that's really on me lately. It like, I don't know what bearing it has on reality.

My perception, it's a faulty bit of business. Because all I'm carrying is this baggage of my own wiring. So I don't know what the hell anyone else feels or what experience they had. And a lot of times, if you respond out loud to your perception you're going to deny someone their experience yep yeah you feel that yeah i mean i saw yes i do but i also saw a show recently where somebody started the entire show with an apology and i was just like man that's such a cop-out like yeah I mean, it's one thing. Like what form? Like, you know, I'm not feeling it tonight.

Or like I had my dog died this morning. It was like a little bit of a, it wasn't, it was like kind of part music, part dance kind of thing. I don't want to call anybody out. No, I know. But it, you know, this person walked up on stage and said, oh, I'm sorry. You know, you probably are wondering why the hell you bought this ticket. And I was just like, no, like, no, it's one thing to be afraid or it's one thing to be self-effacing. But that actually is just this weird convoluted self-aggrandizing thing where you're letting yourself off the hook if it's bad.

Yeah, right. But then you've completely disallowed, and then the audience feels somehow guilty or bad if they enjoy it. Yeah, or else you could kind of program the audience to immediately say, well, why'd we come tonight? Yeah. Maybe tomorrow, why'd we come tonight? You know, maybe tomorrow we should have come tomorrow. Like what, like when people ask you that, what show should we see Friday or Saturday?

I don't know. Yeah. Well, my, my thing is like, I don't know what I rely on them for anymore. I, I'm a little better at accepting,

you know, that they like me. I couldn't really accept that. And a lot of them like you. I love this podcast. Well, thanks. Yeah. But like when I perform,

like I seem, like last night I went up and I'm just doing these workshop shows and I know a lot of people had come to see me do them before. What does that mean, a workshop? Well, the way I write material, like I just do a small theater

and I just give the theater the money and it's like an $8 ticket and I just kind of ramble through an hour of shit that I'm trying to figure out you know I'd rather do it there than in a comedy club and just sort of get my people but like a lot of them have been coming to them so they know the shit as I as I work it out and I and I asked last night how many you've seen this and and how many haven't it was about half and half so now I'm like well what am I going to do for the people that have seen me work this shit out before and and still the people that haven't seen any of it, but also give the people that have seen some of it something else. So, like, I put myself in a mental position, like, hopefully I can take some emotional risks.

I think that's what I get off on. It's kind of menacing, you know, to sort of, like, you know, get that open, go somewhere I haven't gone before. open go somewhere i haven't gone before and it's not a matter of improvising like characters or like but it's literally training a thought kind of like chasing something down and being open enough to to try to get at it but also if like you come up short being able to go like no again yeah yeah totally i i don't mind that i like having the comfort to do that i don't know if it's something you would do at carnegie hall because that's sort of the difference between doing like an oddball fest like i've spent 10 years trying to get more intimate and then all of a sudden it's like well you got to perform for 15,000 you know and then you got to be like well I got to know the

shit what am I going to do the punchline better be strong so I can pace myself and you know be a professional but it's not satisfying it's not satisfying it's not as satisfying that's interesting it's a different thing it's like well I'm I managed. I'm glad I have that skill. You know, I can do a good 15, 20 minutes in front of 15,000 people. I don't see how I'm going to use that skill a lot, but I'm proud of myself. I probably would have fallen apart 10 years ago. Absolutely. But I mean, but with somebody like you who has such specific orchestration of pieces,

I mean, what is the reward for you in a live performance? Well, kind of what you're talking about this i often on guitar on guitar mostly i will often reach for things that either i don't know what it's going to sound like when my fingers get there because i don't it's I am good at the guitar, but I'm not so masterful that the magic is gone. Like I sometimes go, I don't know what that note's going to be. Maybe the, oh, okay. And so it's just becomes this like process of discovery and going out on a limb and not knowing if you're going to land it. Like I've, you know, I've played some shows where I've like joked with the band after we're like oh my god i'm so sorry about that guitar solo like you know there was

one particular run of shows where i had gotten really into albert king and i was like wow i was just playing with him today no way i just play i put i've been playing with albert king every morning for the last week no way that's what's what I'm doing. That is so cool. It's fucking weird. And he does those bins that you're like, wow. You know where they are, right? You getting them? No, but I was trying.

But what happened was I just went, I just sort of for a couple shows, just went into this like sort of hackneyed jam band hell hole. You know? You mean you kept the band going yeah let's go yeah i'm still soloing and just like no like no no that was that was a bad experiment but you know so all right so you're touring around with your uncle and then like you want to be a professional musician. What was the first band? The first, well, I played in a lot of bands in high school and college. Like what were you playing though? When I was like in eighth grade, I was playing bass in like a metal band, like Pantera, Maiden.

Really? Yeah, Metallica. And then I played in... you how'd you present yourself uh you know i presented myself with um i had braces and a sweater vest and sort of high-waisted jeans that i i think were kind of boot cut uh and i had long straight hair because everybody had long straight hair you spend you know an hour straightening it in the morning and I wore my base up really high. So, I mean, I was pretty fuckable.

Yeah. With the base up here. Super high, you know? Yeah. It was like a purple Ibanez that was iridescent blue if you caught it in the right light. Wow.

And you could handle it. I can handle it. Well, luckily, some of those bass lines were pretty, there weren't a lot of notes. Like in the Maiden stuff, there's not a lot of notes. Right. My ex-wife was a big Maiden fan. We went to see them at, I think at the Hollywood Bowl maybe. Was it incredibly entertaining?

Well, I wasn't a metal guy really but you know i've gotten more into it now like like uh since i've gotten into vinyl i i've sort of like started picking up on all the sabbath and you know that stuff and and i get it like i like that one song by maiden but it becomes a little i don't it's not it doesn't that type of guitar playing doesn't equate to soulful guitar playing for me yeah it's just not the way I know I'm with guitar and so a little too mathematical for me like I'm good friends with Brendan Small and he's a real noodler but you know he's a pretty varied guitar player but there's something detached about guys who are wizards on that instrument you know they can do everything so easily and it's sort of like, you're not allowed to do that that effortlessly.

Right. Pretend like it's taking something out of you, would you? You don't get paid per note, yeah. Yeah, I know. So, well, that's impressive. So you're metal. Mm-hmm. And then you did some other things.

Yeah, I was in a noise band in college called the Skullfuckers, which was just, it was actually this really cool songwriter uh who was it was really pulvo-y you know um and if you weren't like bleeding by the end of the set then you hadn't played a good set so you were sort of like you were at least tapped into that performance art rock thing like you knew it yeah yeah i loved it and i loved all the like riot girl stuff i discovered that in my late teens and and big black and the kind of steve albini chicago world yeah i saw him at the rat in boston when i was in college

oh yeah it was him performing. Really? Yeah. It wasn't Shellac or it wasn't... Well, maybe it was, but he was fronting it. And I recall that because I met a woman there with a black mohawk and she sort of changed my life. Really? It was at a Steve Albini show. How'd she change your life?

I don't know. She was just tough. And we ended up hanging out for... I'm still kind of friends with her she was a welder and a sculptor and just like this tank of a girl wow when she was just like from new jersey and had a chip on her shoulder and uh i think i you know i i think she taught me how to fuck really well yeah that helps do you remember that person that adult in your life like it was uh it was angry but it you know it it it was a lesson yeah yeah this

isn't about you i'm not done yet that's where i learned that oh good i'm glad you learned that lesson hopefully early early enough on you got to have those people yeah i mean those are like i don't you know as you get older it's sort of like you realize just how far you've come when you see people and you're like did we and what town were you in and like where where do i know you from really yeah maybe i hope you don't have that issue i don't good yeah i mean i've lived in four different cities over three decades so like if someone comes up to me i'm like you're gonna have to give me a town you're gonna have to give me a city or a period of time oh man i mean if people even if you even see somebody out of context like oh i met this person in cincinnati and then all of a sudden they're in

new york you know and they say hey how are you yes i don't what yeah no it just takes a second yeah it's a little process where what all right? All right. So you're playing in bands. So when do you become, when does this Berkeley thing happen? I moved to Boston when I was 18. I left Texas and went to Berkeley and I dropped out after like two and a half, three years. But your parents are supportive of your thing, your trip all the way through? Yeah. I mean, my mom is, my mom, especially because her brother, Tuck, is a musician. So it wasn't like it was a family of doctors and they said, well, you want a what?

Right, right, right. I'm sure they had some trepidation. It's usually just fear of, well, what are you going to do if it doesn't work out? Yeah. I mean, that's usually their fear of supportive parents of musical or artistic people. It's not that they don't want you to do it. They just don't know how you're going to make a living. Right.

But they sent you to Berkeley. Yeah, they did. Yeah, yeah. What went wrong there at the noodling school? I don't know. I got some things out of it. You know, I like dug deep into, they had a great listening library and I dug deep into a lot of stuff.

Like what? I mean. What changed you there? Stravinsky. Really? Yeah. That's deep. Yeah.

I don't know anything about that stuff. What about classical music in general? Because now that you mentioned it, I can hear something building in your records. It's a build to it i have you know just enough knowledge to be effective but not too much to get too in my head about it but there is something um about the bands you're involved with with polyphonic spree and with um the one after that which one were you in sufjan stevens right there and i hear it more in pop music and i never noticed it because i didn't pay attention to it when it was happening but i talked to jack antonoff in here oh he's a sweetheart it's great lovely guy but like uh you know when i listen to that fun stuff or even bleachers he's sort of very talented guy that guy but um but there is something that comes from polyphonics free that's sort of big

it's like you know it's massive it's a massive sound but then if you really track it back to classical i mean that's all of it my artistic trajectory has been slightly one of of editing and getting more like just going, is this absolutely necessary? Because if I wanted, I could fill up every second with a melodic idea. Do you want to? No, I don't. Do you fight that, though? Well, I mean, I do in the sense that I could.

I have, oh, this melody could go here and this could go over that. But eventually, I mean, I just want to write great songs. I just want to be a good songwriter. And so it's always kind of a balancing act between trying to do that and then also, you know, merge it with some of the other techie stuff. How does the song start when you're writing? All number of ways. Because, like, I don't know how to write songs. You don't?

Not really. I listen to songs, but I've never been, like, a word guy innately. Really? You're a comic. Yeah, but I just like music. Like, a lot of times, there are songs I've listened to all my life and I don't know

what the fuck they're saying. It's so interesting how many people just don't listen to lyrics. No, I don't know why. Yeah. Does it upset you? You mad? Not at all. I mean... Like I listen to your lyrics because I'm focusing. I want to know what you're thinking. And so I paid attention. And still

like, you know, I don't know where they come from songs and i don't know like the how people commit to certain songs but they're great songs but it's like if i looked at it on paper i'd be like i'm not gonna do that really yeah i just like i don't know i i guess well i'm not a fucking musician i'm not a songwriter so like there's something about like you can't like you can't just be clever uh like you know i listen to country songs or blues songs they're very simple but you're doing something elevated there's some poetics to it and there's you know they're vague enough to create emotions without really knowing what the hell it's about i mean that's the real gift to it i mean it's like you know you're conveying feelings and you know and i can feel. But if I were to sit there and look at the words,

not unlike poetry, I'd be like, what is this about? Where's she coming from? Yeah. But that must be the joy of discovery in writing. Is that like you're putting things together, you're having feelings, you're having impulses, even if they're based on an event or a relationship or a friend or whatever, they have to remain to remain somewhat not unlike poetry vague enough to convey feelings

about everything to everybody yeah you have to leave enough room for people to put themselves in right so you're aware of that yeah yeah but also you know you just have to rely on the fact it's the same thing that i'm sure you rely on which is that so much of experience is just universal. So even if you kind of pull a law and order and change the details. Right. Still, the story resonates. Or sometimes it's not even about some literal narrative story that you have to follow to the end it's just like oh there's something about the sound of this word right and this um melody that is evocative and like that's the magic that i mean i don't know i don't know why it is but if you just kind of have to trust that if you're

you're feeling something then other people will right so like even like i'm trying to think of what song on the the new record this like kind of got me. What's Prince Johnny about? Prince Johnny. Yeah, that started out as a short story. I didn't have any music for it. It was just words. And it was sort of like kind of a composite of a bunch of people and one specific person in mind but then sort of details taken from other other parts of this like downtown new york yeah like music right freak queer right scene yeah that's what i felt yeah all those things yeah and you know wild there's a little darkness to it

yeah yeah yeah i mean the there's a little darkness to it yeah yeah yeah i mean the there's that you know everybody has that impulse to self-destruct and it becomes clearer when you when you sort of see it in someone else you go like i want to save you i can't save you i'm not even the person to save you because I'm insane too. You know? Yeah. But you don't strike me as the kind of person that's going to let it go. Let what go? All of it. Self-destruct.

I've had some dark ones, but I don't think I'll kill myself. Is that what you mean? Sort of. I mean, but just lose control of it. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like any, you know, red-blooded American I've considered suicide. Well, no, but I mean, just like, you know, self-destruct to me that, you know, when your lifestyle is one that is gambling with that, a lot of times people can't stop it.

But to some people, it's a romantic venture. But some people have that, and it's sort of a curse, but it's a gift. And there are people on the sidelines that are concerned but envious. Forgive me, but are you sober? I'm sober, yeah. You're sober? Yeah. Yeah. For or did you? I'm sober, yeah. You're sober? Yeah. Yeah.

For like 15 years, yeah. Yeah, congratulations. I knew that. I just wasn't totally certain because I saw we walked past your, in your kitchen and I saw a glass of champagne, like a bottle of champagne. I was like, oh. That's, I think that's cider or something. Is it like a, it was schwag from a. It was.

I have, like I'll have a couple beers in the fridge if, you know, you wanted a beer, you could have a beer. Tell me more. I don't generally offer it. No, but no, I mean,

but you know, it's a funny, it's a funny thing. I've been thinking, I've been thinking a lot about this as of late because I stopped looking at the internet.

I stopped, you know, except for checking my email and the internet i stopped you know except for checking my email and answering calls you know calling my mama or whatever you know call my sisters and but i stopped like looking at this is maybe shameful but i stopped looking at news i stopped looking at um you know culture sites i just stopped i read a book i read the new yorker i answer my you know business emails and there's something that has happened in the past i want to say three weeks that and i don't know if these things are correlated but i suspect that they are i'll be somewhere i'll be you know i'll be at a party and end up talking to the new york city cop who's you know guarding a velvet rope table full of assholes you know and i just start talking to

this guy and he's awesome he has the best stories and it's just people have been kind of giving me their life stories as of late and i don't know if it's something in me that's changed where people think, hey, this is a person who's receptive. And I don't, and it's not like a, you know, I'm not naive. It's not like they're, you know, flirting with me. And we're just talking. You know, I had talked to the guy who was, I was in Miami yesterday, talked to the driver for the hour to the hotel.

And we just had a really beautiful moment. He told me all about his life and his son passed away two years ago. And, you know, it's just, I think these things are correlated because usually the world and with people that I think I just didn't, I wasn't as open to before somehow. And I don't know what changed, but. Well, it's all very self-involved. You know, in the sense that you can constantly distract yourself with something and feel like you're doing something beneficial. Yeah. But a lot of times it just distances you. Sure, it makes complete sense. But I mean, when you deal with people,

getting back to like the self-destructive thing and the heartbreaking story of like in music, I mean, God knows, I mean, if you've been at it for, you know, if you've been on the road for 10 years, to like the self-destructive thing and the the heartbreaking story of like in music i mean god knows i mean if you've been at it for you know you've been on the road for 10 years you see the toll it takes on some artists and you see the you know that some people get lost yeah it's easy to get lost yeah it is but you've never been a person that's like, kind of like, I got to pull back. I got to check in. I got to. No, because I mean, sometimes, you know, because I have like a really rad group of girls on tour. Yeah.

My bandmate Toko and my production assistant Rachel and lighting lady Suzanne, who is with Nirvana and Sonic Youth. Yeah. And it's just kind of rad. She's seen it. She's a rad veteran. She rules. But like occasionally we'll be like, I't know should we housewife and it's 3 p.m and it's like yeah let's have some white wine yeah so i mean that's it yeah that's like that but you know 3 p.m to 2 a.m like you're

still drinking for 11 hours you know so yeah full-on extreme housewifing yeah exactly but but the thing is you live in such ambient spaces you're like you travel you travel and it's not like i spent i've been in five four cities in five days that are completely unrelated to one another new york miami dallas los angeles and it's like I'm existing in the ether. I don't, sometimes I don't want to be fully present for that. That's the. For the travel. Yeah, I don't want to be, you know.

You just want to see the stage and get on. Yeah. How's your following? Good? Yeah, I think it's great. I mean, I think. You pulling crowds? Yeah, I think i have really nice

fans what do you how they what's the breakdown what do you see out there when you look out there who are they it's pretty varied which makes me really happy and you think this new album has done a lot of it or no i think this new album it definitely you know took me to some different level but it's hard for me to know these things because i'm just living it i'm just in it what about the relationship with david burn oh i love him how did that happen uh we met at a charity thing um in 2009 he came up and he told me that he liked my video for actor out of work and then we saw each other at another charity thing a couple nights later and for this in In New York. Yeah.

Housing Works is a bookstore. Another place. You know it. Yeah. Yeah. And so we were watching Bjork and the Dirty Projectors do a night of like original music. And they raised a bunch of money for charity. And it was great.

So the Housing Works people asked us if we wanted to do it. And we said, sure. And we started writing. writing and then writing you know five you know five songs ended up writing an album ended up being you know a year and a half of tour yeah i i listened to it and like i i loved him you know and i and i sort of like there was a time in my life where i listened to all the stuff and even the more abstract stuff you know catherine wheel and in Bush of Ghosts and all that. Like I was in it. That's a great record, yeah. Yeah, I mean I was in it, I'm a big Eno head.

And it's interesting to hear, like listen to your solo stuff and then listen to what you two do to each other. Because it's a little different, but it's the same world in a way. But he's not as complicated as you are it seems. As complicated? Yeah. Really? are, it seems. As complicated? Yeah.

Really? Yeah, it seems like there's like, it's weird about Byrne, it's like he's just a groove guy in some ways. Yeah, he's very buoyant. Yeah, yeah, and there's a bounce to it but it's like, there's simplicity to it kind of always. And did you find that,

what did you do to each other musically? Hmm. I think probably I brought some melancholy and he brought a lot of buoyancy. Right. Yeah. And so, and it was also fun to play those shows because we had eight, eight brass people on stage and, you know,

12 people total on stage between me and David and the drummer and all that. And it made people happy. Like I, I know it sounds so stupid, but I've never, It made people happy. Like, I know it sounds so stupid, but I've never, I've never, like, considered, like, the St. Vincent show, like, making people happy. I mean, I want it to be an experience. I want it to, I want us to, like, go somewhere together and all the stuff that, you know, probably sounds very trippy and hippy-dippy, but I want that.

probably sounds very trippy and hippy-dippy, but I want that. But I never assume that people are going to the show to just kind of kick back, have some white wine, and have a good time. I just assume that it's something people go for some other reason. Right, to be moved somehow. Somehow.

And I don't know if that sounds self-aggrandizing. No, no, I think that there's a tone to people. And I don't know if that sounds self-aggrandizing. No, no. I think that there's a tone to people. And I never thought about, but that is what Byrne sort of evolved into. I mean, somewhere after he started listening to Brazilian music, it became this different thing. And then it was sort of like, come on, let's clap your hands. Yeah. It was a little easier.

Whereas like some of the earlier talking head stuff was really menacing in a way yeah way more anxiety and i mean just full of you know that manic street preacher not the band but right archetype um yeah i love him i love him i'm we're gonna i i go see shows with him all the time when i'm in new york we just go do art culture, art culture things just on our bicycles. Well, that's what I had this weird moment with him that there was two that I had with him. I don't know him. I think we're probably very different. There was one where I was on a plane with him and, you know, he was in first class years ago and uh we land in new york and um everybody's waiting at the baggage claim and there's no bags coming out and then like from over at another

baggage claim i just hear some voice go over here and i turn around and burn does this with his hand like he waves people over but it was so bernie and yeah there's something so specific about his movements i was like that's amazing i know and yeah there's something so specific about his movements i was like that's amazing i know and then there was another time where i was just on the street i think i was out in front of louis old place in chelsea and and he rode by on his bike and and he had lights on his bike right and there was just something to me where i didn't say anything to him but i saw it was david burn and it registered and then i just watched the lights kind of fade away and because it was david burn it had some you know poignant thing to me the minimalism of it there was an art to it absolutely just the lights on david burn's bike fading into the

distance yep yep uptown or downtown or whatever no what this melancholy thing though you you like you evoke that because i can feel it. And it's something that Bowie does. It's something that Kate Bush does. It's something that that type of, like that ether you talk about, that ether seems to be filled with a type of melancholy. You like it. I just know it. And I just think you can't write about things you don't know.

It's not like you have to put down your literal life into every song but is it hard for you to have a good time no i'm i'm a fucking laugh riot you're fun girl no and one of the wonderful things uh about alcohol for me is and not as not i'm not a big a horrifying drinker by any means but like you know some people like they have a drink and they get kind of weird and then all this weird dark shit starts coming out and you're like i wish you hadn't had that thing i'm a delightful drunk oh good yeah and you can manage it yeah did you have alcohols in your family uh i'm irish cath. Yeah. It was around. Yeah.

Yeah. Because you seem like the kind of person that like in that kind of environment, either they're going to go boozy or they're going to go like, nah, I'm in control of things. No, it's no, nobody. I mean, I enjoy a little white wine. Okay. All right. House wifing.

Okay. All right. I don't. And didn't you do a couple, did you do an episode of Portlandia? Yeah, I did. Like just one or two? I did three. You like acting?

Yeah, I do. Yeah? Yeah. I'm less scared of it than I was in high school. Oh, good. Yeah. And it's different in front of cameras as opposed to a live audience doing Bye Bye Birdie or something.

Yeah, right, right. And, you know, you got a bunch of creative people around you, so it's nice. Yeah, it's nice. You gonna do more of that? Maybe. If somebody asked me to, I'd do it. Yeah? Yeah.

Well, you and Kara are friends and she's gonna rock out soon again, right? It's great. It's, um, and And everybody's killing it. Janet's drumming her ass off. Corinne is nailing it. Carrie's playing the most crazy, awesome, outsider art guitar you've ever heard. It's funny with her because we've talked before

and we see each other. I knew the band a little bit but I didn't know it a lot and we did some event and I sort of know her as this comedic personality now and that's sort of my my real experience with her as a person and we did this event for the IFC upfronts and she got up there and it's just a very interesting thing to talk to her but then when you see her put a guitar on you're like oh well that's what that that's what it is that's what's supposed to be happening you know she lives on her you know like it's just organic thing yeah do you guys jam yeah we have jammed like just jam out do your albert kinglicks

yeah i do no actually we've we've jammed um she has a little, like, you know, they have a little rehearsal-y room. Yeah. And what I think usually works best, because she's such a cool extemporaneous guitar player. Yeah. My favorite thing about her playing is she's not afraid to go anywhere. And she always ends up in some place really cool that I never would have ever thought about. Rhythmically or just? Rhythmically, melodically.

And so it works best if I'm on drums. And she's, we wrote a couple songs one time that I thought were really cool. What happened to them? I don't know, they're in GarageBand somewhere. Why don't you guys do a record? I mean, she's pretty busy. I'm pretty busy. You guys should do a record.

We'll do like a seven inch. Like that would be fun. But like put it out under, not like be like, oh, it's Samson. But put it out. Just make up some weird name and don't really say who it is. Yeah, that would be fun all right well i'm gonna hold you to it yeah kind of you should do it you know you should play drums on it she should play you should play i'll play drums on it are you a good drummer uh

i've good i have terrible technique but i have a i have good time oh that's that's the most important thing but i'm but but past a certain bpm i'm worthless worthless so there's definitely a saint vincent groove on the drums get get me around you know 100 bpm i can keep it i can keep it you know little swampy bottom um but anything above that and i'm just just woefully underprepared alright well let's stick with the swampy bottom then nice talking to you nice talking to you that's it that's it that's it that's our show Christmas is approaching

are you ready are you ready for Christmas are you ready for the kunuka are you ready for the other holidays i'm not i'm not being exclusionary i just don't know them all i just uh i think it's you know i i know they're christmas and hanukkah uh kwanzaa is that that this is that time maybe i shouldn't even talk about it. Happy holidays. How about just that? Are you ready for the holidays? Hey, look, folks, get on the mailing list. I always forget to tell you that.

If you go to WTFpod.com, not only can you get JustCoffee.coop, not only can you get the premium app, get the free app, and get the premium app and stream everything, but get on the mailing list. I spend a lot of time keeping up with you people. I sit on Sundays, and I write you a nice letter, a nice email about my life and things. So go to the pod, go to WTFpod, and get on the mailing list. And I'll email you every week.

It's not all business, man. It's, you know, it's just, hey, what's going on? Wasn't St. Vincent great? All right, let's do a little guitar. Thank you. Boomer lives! Boomer lives! From cleaner energy, safe and secure food, efficient movement of goods and people, and better health solutions, Calgary's visionaries are turning heads around the globe, across all sectors, each and every day. Calgary's on the right path forward. Take a closer look how at calgaryeconomicdevelopment.com. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com.