WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 561 - Melissa Etheridge

Episode Date: December 21, 2014

Melissa Etheridge makes Marc's garage sound better than ever with an amazing conversation followed by a killer live performance. Love, loss, children, parents, cancer, recovery, desolation, vindication - it's all covered, and then some. Plus, Melissa delivers a garage performance for the ages with a track off her new album, This is M.E. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com. Lock the gates! All right, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck, buddies? What the fucking ears? What the fuckadelics? How are you?

Good. Now I'm answering myself. It's Mark Maron. Welcome. Welcome to the show. This is WTF. It's my show you're listening to me mark maron did i mention that already well look folks it's a pretty amazing episode today i

gotta say it moved me when i recorded it and it uh it moved me again when I just listened to the song at the end of this episode. Melissa Etheridge is somebody we all know. We all know Melissa Etheridge. Everybody knows Melissa Etheridge. There was a couple years there where everything was Melissa Etheridge. And then you wonder, like, what's Melissa Etheridge been up to? And then someone gets in touch with me and says, Hey, would you like to have Melissa Etheridge on the show? And I say, yeah. I'd like to know what Melissa Etheridgeidge been up to? And then someone gets in touch with me and says, hey, would you like to have Melissa Etheridge on the show?

And I say, yeah, I'd like to know what Melissa Etheridge has been up to, and I'd like to hear her whole story, because I don't know that much about Melissa Etheridge. She's got a new record out. That's why she wants to come on the show. And I'm like, okay, it's not really about the record, but it's about her. But this new record, it's called This's called this is me and it came out in

the fall and you can get it wherever you get music uh and uh but i said i said yeah let's let's go let's talk to miss etheridge and i gotta tell you man this conversation was pretty astounding and pretty emotional and and like it was very engaging she came with her her wife linda lovely people and she sat in here they i let linda sit in here and i don't usually do that but they were so goddamn cute together i i had to i had to let it happen and it turned out to be a a great conversation very moving very deep very informative but just you know uplifting and heartwarming and and i just listened to the song that she plays at the end of this show that you will hear this is happening for you i believe it's called take my number and um i cried a little and i cried a

little when she played it it's just there something, there's something very earnest and, and, and, and sweet and wise about Melissa Etheridge. I, I'm going to say that confidently and earnestly. Cause I was completely blown away by this whole experience that you're about to hear. I just wanted to tell you that up front.

I think it's important that you know how I feel sometimes. Usually you can tell during the show, I imagine. But for me to cry twice listening to a song, well, that's not true. I've been a little weepy since I've been without the nicotine. A little bit weepy. What's going on here? It's the Christmas season. I've got without the nicotine. A little bit weepy. What's going on here? It's the Christmas season. I've got mail waiting here.

When is this from? Oh, this is weird. Some guy from Detroit. I don't even know. This was just sitting here, and it's been sitting here for months. I've always considered you a badass, but I've revoked your membership

on account of having never been to Detroit. One, Detroit is definitely badass. One cannot be a badass having never been to Detroit. One, Detroit is definitely badass. One cannot be a badass having never been here. Two, thinking Detroit is dead or dying is definitively un-badass. It's akin to having a gluten allergy. You assume it's true because the mainstream media told you it's true, but it's total bullshit. Come visit and I'll play tour guide. If you survive the mean streets, i'll return your badass card also i'm super interesting it would make for an extraordinary badass guest star how could you resist always and forever timothy i was just sitting here i meant to read it because i liked

it i do have to go to detroit i do have to experience detroit i guess i was chatting about detroit a while back but that was just sitting here so so I thought I'd read it. It's the New Year's coming. I'm taking care of old business on my desk. Isn't that what we're supposed to do? So I didn't do anything. I did nothing for the holiday. I'm a Jew, and I'm a Jew through and through. I'm a Jew going back generations. I did nothing. I didn't even know what day Hanukkah started. And you know what else? You know, I've got to reassess who I am or something. I'll be

honest with you. I was only invited to one party. One Christmas party. And then at the last minute I was invited to drinks at Al Madrigal, a wonderful comic, and his wife kristin invite me every year to their thing and i love that i like going i i love them and i see some

friends there and then brendan small invited me a few days ago to cocktails at his house i believe that's tonight i don't know if i'm gonna make that but only two parties now you guys hear me every week you hear me talk it feels like i have friends right when i talk to these people it feels like we get close we connect two invitations what what is it about me are people afraid that i'm gonna talk to them like i talk to them on the podcast at their party am i am i draining um am i not somebody that people think like hey he'd be fun to have here what where am i where are my party invitations i don't get it i feel like i've made a lot of progress as a human being i just want to come to your party i mean jesus fucking christ

granted i didn't know what day hanukkah start doesn't matter i'm a guy living alone with two cats and no one thinks like maybe be nice to have mark over for supper since we're having people i'm not feeling sorry for myself i just wonder what the fundamental glitch is where i don't seem like a good idea to have at your event, at your get-together, friends. I guess it plays into my whole sort of insecurity about that. Like, you know, everybody comes in here, especially people I kind of know or people that know people I know or people that I respect.

I feel strangely close to everybody. It's not based on anything. It's just the way I am. And I think they like me too. And I think we get along good. And I think we have nice conversation. And I think it would be a nice thing to say, you want to come to the party?

But maybe people just think of me as some sort of, you know, like, he's that guy. I did that show. I did his show. I liked it. Yeah, just that guy in that that show i did a show i liked it yeah just that guy in that show maybe this is the angle maybe no one had parties this year maybe there were no parties uh maybe no one i know had a party this year it's very distressing in a way i don't even

know if i go to the party but i want to feel like i have friends but i don't know if i really have friends i think i you know i talked to a lot of people here. I've got like two or three friends, but I don't, I don't hang out with them. Maybe that's the issue. Maybe that's the issue. Maybe I'm not social enough. Anyways, everything's fine. I've got to write a script over vacation.

I guess it's officially vacation. I'm doing a script for my show, Marin. All the writing is going very well. It's all a very exciting, collaborative experience. The stories are all fun. Looking forward to shooting my third season in January. That's all going well. Didn't buy gifts for anybody.

Maybe if I sent cards or thank you notes or did those things that people do that you're supposed to do. And I'm getting a lot of Christmas cards, a few. That was very nice. The Richters sent me a Christmas card. Greg Fitzsimmons sent me a Christmas card. The Magical sent me a Christmas card. Carol Leifer sent me a Christmas card. So, you know, people are thinking of me.

So I have a little stack of pictures of people's kids. Just a little reminder, a little yearly reminder of the path that I did not take. There's both gratitude and sadness in that path that I have taken, but it is what it is. Come on! Look, you know, I wanted this to be uplifting i want you to have a good holiday i hope you get what you wanted i hope your presents are exciting because no matter what anyone says presents are fucking great presents make it worthwhile don't ever say like i don't need presents you want presents nothing better than opening a box and wondering like what is this is this going to be something that's going to make my life really happy for a few minutes?

Or is it going to be just a misfire? Nothing worse than unwrapping a misfire. That's very sad. Especially if it's from somebody that you're intimate with. The intimate misfire is a harbinger, my friends. That's a hell of a sentence. That's right. You buy one bad shirt one bad sweater one bad book

if you just missed the mark a bit maybe you can buy a couple presents cover your ass cover your ass so if the misfire happens at least there's something there that is undeniably on the mark that's my christmas advice also be charitable be giving spread a little love to people that you hate try that i'm not good at that but i'm working on it i saw foxcatcher that's the fucking movie of the year gotta be honest with you the tone was held perfectly the cinematography was stunning the direction stylized and perfect. The performances on every level, disturbing, deep, jarring. The story, sparse but perfect. Great movie, dark movie, deep movie. Based on true story. Not going to ruin anything. I'm not even going to say what it's about. Not

going to spoil shit. I'm going to tell you that foxcatcher is a beautifully realized piece of uh movie art the whole thing enjoy enjoy that and right now i want you to be ready to be uplifted because god knows my intro didn't do it no i'm a little nostalgic you guys a little nostalgic we're going to talk to melissa etheridge now the first voice you will hear i do address her her wife linda and then you'll hear uh me and melissa and with occasional uh cackling and laughing in the background that might be uh linda but uh here's mel Melissa Etheridge and myself having an amazing conversation. Almost anything. Order now. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing.

With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. special bonus podcast episode where I talked to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis

Store and ACAS Creative. nice to see you both you're you're a tv right what's your whole name linda wallum you're rich now. I'm married. Married. Married. God. Can we say again? Is that? Well, you know, I was never legally married before.

This is my first legal marriage. Look, I've been through two. Yeah. But I got no kids. I don't know how that happened. I must be a real asshole. I have four kids and I don't know how that happened. You do know how it happened

there's four kids and i know of right you know yes i was sort of obsessed with the back in the day i was sort of obsessed with the idea of you uh using david crosby sperm i thought there was a genius to it but i also thought that was a risk it's a roll of the dice yes yes it but it had to do with what i believed in at the time. Did I believe that we are just, that we're so predestined by our genes that if I use the sperm of a drug addict. But also a drug addict with one of the best voices in the world. In the world.

In the world. And you know what? Like I knew that. I knew that must be what you're thinking. Well, yeah, the best voice in the world in the world and you know what like i knew that i knew that must be what you're thinking well yeah the best voice in the world and if you knew him personally ask anyone who knows him he is one of the most amazing human beings you'll meet right and his wife jan was just so gracious and it was perfect because anyone else i was looking at at the time you know brad pitt right you know i'm looking at brad pitt it's like okay i need to think in the future right is is this will this and brad pitt wanted kids really bad did you actually reach out

to brad pitt for the for the sperm i didn't know i didn't this was the dream but yeah but these are guys that were actually sure and we would joke about it you know late at night but it also takes a certain type of guy to know that that that the child's going to be out there and i mean that's exactly it that's what and that's what i needed i didn't want a father right i wanted the parts that i needed that i didn't have yeah you know yeah and so this this is what fit perfectly and i knew when the world and i wasn't going to tell the world who the, I was like, that's none of their business until it was the only time I was ever chased and things were, and it was, you know, who is the father?

Who's, and I said, oh my God, my kids are now, they're going to be at school and someone's going to, oh, your daddy. Right, right. Yeah. And so I said, that's why I finally said, no, look, this is, this is who the father is. Go, go away and let them grow up now. And they did, right?

Yes. And they know that he is their biological father they know that they're both biologically fathered by david crosby yeah they're both full brothers and sisters uh-huh and they're beautiful no they they truly are i'm gonna show you a picture because it's radio yeah i was sort of there's the two the two oldest ones they're the look at them oh my god yeah they're beautiful aren't they yeah got the good parts of dating yeah and it well is there well what did you earn genetically anything you know no nothing i'm still confused no there's no there's no angelic voices coming out yet oh well yeah problems well yeah but you know there's there

they are right right but is that is that because i'm raising a child in southern california right you know or is that is that me yeah you know is it you know what is it now now does does have they met david or how does that work oh yeah they knew him they because it was important because my other ex, Julie, she- The second ex? Yeah. Well, the first ex. Okay.

That's not how you look at it. Right. The first ex, she had been adopted. And so it was very important that they knew actually where they came from biologically. Right. That's one of the reasons we picked someone that you would know. Right. My brother's got three adopted kids.

Yeah. And they know all the parents. Yeah. Because it's like, you don't want that, oh, who's that weird dreamy kid. The weird search. Yes, exactly. You want to send them out into the world to find someone in a trailer park. Yeah, exactly.

So I knew. So we introduced them, and always called them, this is your bio dad. When someone says, do you have your father? Yeah, I have a father. That's interesting. And they have a relationship with him yeah yeah and and they have a half brother jango and right they see them and like they they're like uncles like oh that's wild yeah that you would go see well that's that's nice that there's that that that honesty to it and that's

because that has to be otherwise it's drama and it's weird well that's a good way that's a good line to draw actually that the the difference the the alternative to honesty is drama exactly i gotta i gotta act a little more uh i gotta be a little more honest i think there you go you're gonna be a little less dramatic you don't want it honesty kills drama it is like i know but sometimes drama is you know well that's where we got our best work right i made a living off a drama listen i'm the only one jesus no i look i listened to the new record and i didn't know i didn't know what i was gonna get into and i put it on i got it this morning and i'm like well yeah well because when we book this we give you lots of time to well it wasn't done well i think we were originally talking and i'm

like i need to hear it so i just sat down it's all fresh in my mind. And I'm like, holy shit, she's gunning for it. She's not fucking around. Why? Why should I? No, I don't think you should. Right. If you still got the goods, fuck it. Right.

I can sing like. Oh, you said fuck, so I can say fuck. Of course. Right. Yes, I can sing like fuck. You can sing like fuck. I can play the guitar like crazy. And there's all that.

There's that edge to it where it's a little bit menacing sexually and like do you know i'm thinking about these troubled women in these diners that you're walking up to oh my god melissa's a predator out there what are you doing girl do you know what i just got the best news i've been banned in barnes and noble already already not really banned but they they're gonna play my they want to play my you know we got to deal with them with their well they'll play the cd and. Not really banned, but they're going to play my, they want to play my, you know, we got to deal with them where they'll play the CD in the store,

but they won't play one song off the album. Let me see which one. Let me guess. Ain't that bad? No, you would think it would be that. No.

Maybe, which one? No, All the Way Home. It's just the horny song that I wrote. Oh, because you got fire and you're down there. Yeah, I know, down there, right.

I got fire down below. I mean, Bob Seger wrote that in the 70 there. I know, down there, right. I got fire down below. I mean, Bob Seger wrote that in the 70s. Bob Seger, that's interesting you bring that up. Because if I think about it, I never even thought about it until you just said that. But there's a similarity. Oh, I love Bob Seger. Oh, come on, he grew up with Main Street. Night Moves was the biggest thing in the world.

Do you remember the first time you heard it? It was like epic. That song is about six minutes long. You wanted to cry. Yes. You're usually in junior high. I know. And you're like, oh my God. We're getting on the night.

Yeah. If it was at night and you were driving by yourself, you're just like, oh yeah, man. And he thinks back, you know, past the woodshed. And like Aerosmith and shit. Oh, Walk This Way. Well, I was listening to the first Aerosmith record with Dream On and Mama Kin and all the,

it's so good. Wasn't it weird when they were so, like, big in the 70s and then they got, like, drugs and then they came back

in the 90s. they got overproduced and then they figured out what bell to hit, but those first few records, first record is dirty, man. So naughty.

It's really good. That's the spirit of rock and roll is naughtiness. It definitely is. That's, that's the spirit of rock and roll is definitely is that's and i wanted to i feel it i got a little yeah it was a little uncomfortable and it was good it was good it was good why not and then but it was weird because like you know i'm listening to the whole record and then we get like all the way through there's actually a little funky almost rappy stuff there in the middle and then at the end you did your sort of like, you know, you're kind of like a middle age,

I'm going to look at myself song. Exactly. You're going to throw one in. And that's why I put it in the end. This one's for all you ladies that have been with me for 30 years. Right? But I'm having a lot of sex.

Is not, isn't anyone else? No, sure I am. Okay, see, so, and that's what I want to sing about.

Well, I think that you've always been pretty straight. Well, I mean, honest, wrong word. Never been straight, always been honest. There you go. And honesty keeps the drama out. So, but let's go back, because I don't know a lot about your backstory. Like, what kind of music, we just talked about Bob Seger, we just talked about Aerosmith.

Like, if you're sitting around or you're in the car, you know, what do you go back to when you just want to listen to shit? Like, to get in the spirit of things. Well, it depends on what the spirit is, because, I mean, it could be, if... What'd you grow up with?

My parents were the first influence of music, and that was, that was mamas and papas. They were kind of... Really? Kind of 60s cool right because we missed it it's weird because what you're I'm 51 53 right so but we still kind of miss the 60s we still got it was sort of we got there was just overflow yeah yeah yeah just at the end of the 60s where it was the Beatles were I kind of came into it when the Beatles my first

45s right were very much Beatles, Stones, then Carole King. Yeah. You know? Right. I went down to Carole King. And then I had, in the late 60s, early 70s, I had the London Symphony Orchestra version of The Who's Tommy.

Oh, right, right, right. Right. And that blew my mind. Yeah. And I used to sit and listen to that with my headphones over and over and over. Yeah. And I had George Harrison's All Things Must Pass. And, you know, just really, you know.

So you got all of it coming in. The album, rock. Oh, I love that stuff. But just pure rock. And I was playing in a country western band. Well, I can hear that all over your stuff. So I had to learn. I saw Tammy Wynette, Conway Twitty.

George Jones. George Jones. All those. So that's that's in there and you grew up where I grew up in Kansas what is

what does that even mean I know it's I mean it's like one of those places like I've been there I mean I think I was just there actually

where's the college where's the KU oh no the small fancy Lawrence Lawrence

that's Lawrence Kansas that's very close to my hometown. I was in Lawrence. Yes. That's where people go. Yeah. And I did some shows at a film festival there. Yes.

They're very nice people. They are lovely. And then I went to St. Louis to perform. And I don't know what the hell is in Kansas. That's where I'm from. Is that whole. Kansas is, we're not the South. Right.

I know. And we're not the East. Yeah. We're not Ohio at all. Yeah. Right. And we're not like Minnesota and Chicago. My wife's from Chicago. Yeah. We don't the South. Right. I know. And we're not the East. Yeah. We're not Ohio at all. Yeah, right. And we're not like Minnesota and Chicago. My wife's from Chicago. Yeah.

We don't have that. We are just hopelessly prairie, bland, white bread mayonnaise. Well, yeah, it sort of defines it. I mean, it's sort of a punchline. I mean, Kansas is sort of like, Kansas, it's the Wizard of Oz. I know. is sort of like where you kansas it's the wizard of oz i know but but also is a incredibly conservative incredibly sort of rooted in the worst parts of the christian idea well as you would think yet it that majority is very thin yes they are now a red state. Right. Yes. Yes, they are conservative. Right. Yet, 48% is still very liberal and very artful.

And they, I mean, that's where Brown versus, you know, Topeka, that's where, you know, John Henry came from. We're known as... You get into the debate. Yes, we get in there. And hopefully the righteous will win. Exactly. But it's also where the

the first protests the westboro baptist church right was that protest the original protests against planned parenthood and the abortion issue were all sort of there yeah so it's a battlefield yeah that's exciting and was it that way when you grew up yeah i grew up my my my father was republican my mother was democrat and so it was right in the house. The debate was ongoing. Yes. Active. Active in the house. And it was in the high school.

But we had everything. Were you brought up with religion? No. Well, that's it. You got off the hook there. Yeah, I did. Yet I was brought up because my parents thought you're supposed to take your kid to church. So they did until, I i know like just in case

because they might go i might go to hell and we don't want them to go to hell yeah there's that thing where it's like well we're not really that active but why deny the kid the opportunity to get you know bullied by god exactly you know what i mean but what i found was music i found the choir so i kept going to church for the music for Yeah. And then, and got really involved in the youth. Because there's, you know, there's all that Christian youth. I started writing Christian music in high school. Absolutely. Well, hopefully, like, maybe in five or six years, you've been trying to record that shit.

Let's do it. I'm ready. I'm ready to take that on. I can see how you're holding your hand up. I'm ready. I got the spirit within me. So you wrote some Jesus songs? Yes.

Oh, hell. I'd like to hear the Jesus songs. I know. They're really sweet. No, there's one called There's Love in This Place that was really, it was more of a youth, not so much a Jesus song as it was a youth group song.

Well, they're never quite Jesus songs, are they? They're like, even the Jesus music now, it's sort of like, I get what they're talking about. Yeah. When they say him, I know what they're never quite jesus songs are they they're like like even the jesus music now it's sort of like i get what they're talking about yeah when they say him i know what they're talking about i get the message but what's your what was your what'd your dad do he was a high school teacher republican high school teacher of what of well he was actually hired because he was the coach he was that guy he's the coach of the basketball team, and they let him teach something. He was almost illiterate, I believe.

No, because he could barely spell. That's the price they pay, right? Yes. So it's small town. He must have been a good coach. He took them to state. He was a very, very good coach. My father was a very athletic, wonderful, wonderful man.

He was the one who used to drive me around to all my gigs. Really? Yeah. When you were in high school? Yes. Yes. Interesting. And he's the only reason I could play at the Parents Without Partners dance

for the Knights of Columbus. Right, right. Or the Eagles Clubs or that sort of thing. Yeah. He'd sit there and he wouldn't drink. He'd sit there and drink Coca-Cola all night. Uh-huh. And then he'd load up, we'd load up the car and we'd go home.

And you were in a band at that time? Yeah. And you were just a guitar player or you were singing? I was singing and guitar playing and I played keyboards. I did everything. What was the first outfit you were in? What were they called?

What was the- Chuck Hammersmith and the Wranglers. Yeah. Yeah. Were there outfits? Yes. Oh, I wish I had a picture. There has to be outfits when you're the wranglers do you have did they give you actually the cd cd no they gave me a download because there's a picture in

the cd of the old band i was in in high school and we all had the outfits how old were you oh in that picture i'm probably 14 15 and you're playing what kind of guitar i was playing an acoustic i was playing my ovation and then i had a uh did i have a les paul then i think i i think i did uh-huh a les paul uh like uh just a standard custom a custom the black one or no that's the one i have now it was a sunburst it was yeah oh it was great yeah sold it i'm so god damn i know she never sold guitars i know yeah but we don't know that no you No, you don't. You don't. And then you got to scramble to try to get it back.

But all right. So because on this album, there's some pretty dirty guitar playing. Is that all you? That's me. Really? That's my Les Paul custom on Ain't That Bad. Yeah. I worked with my, I talk to my record company.

I'm like, I want to work with some badass dudes, right? Yeah. Because I think I can hold up to them. I want to work with some badass dudes, right? Yeah, yeah. Because I think I can hold up to them. And so they finally, they were like, okay, we finally got this rock star. And rock star, he's done J-Lo and Chris Brown, and he's bad. Right.

He's a bad guy. Guitar player or producer? No, producer. He's one of these producer guys, right? Yeah. So I show up, and the studio is completely different now than it used to be.

It used to be you show up in a recording studio studio and there's a big room where the band is and everything and then the control room's kind of small yeah now the control room's huge and there's just a little vocal booth yeah because they do everything they do everything on the there's no real music so i bring my less ball and my amp in and he's like what's it what's that he he's fascinated with it they didn't even have a mic for the amp no they were like we have to go get a mic we had we had to go find one so we had to show him how to mic it i go into it with rockstar yeah and i we he's got this name that's his name okay he'sstar. Yes. I should have known that, right? Yes.

And he's got the Versace gold around his neck. And he's just, he's looking at me and I'm smoking with him in there. He's like, this is going to be a problem. Like, he's like looking at me like, whoa. And I'm smoking him out of the table. I can smoke more than him. You know, he's like, whoa. And so we start writing this song.

And the name of what we're smoking is called a Sunny Day Honey Stick. And so that's in the song. I got honey stick uh-huh and so that that's in the song i got a sunny day yeah that's right and we're and we're playing and so i go in there and sing and he's like he's like kind of telling me now sing he he loves that i he can act he goes you can actually sing yeah and so i'm in there singing and he comes and he gets in front of the the computer to do something after i sang and he said hey where's the auto-tune and the guy's like oh i would never put auto-tune on her voice and he she's singing like that without auto-tune yeah so i had a real stuff re it was real good oh what's that oh this is a this is a honey stick

oh that's it that's for you oh thank you no it you. No, it's all right. Are you in a seat? We didn't know. Oh, no, it's okay. I can appreciate it. Your brain looks like it. Oh, dude, it's been 15 years. I did my time. Okay. There's no judgment.

It's just that if I start that, who knows where I'll be in three days. That's the kind of guy I am. Okay, then. I understand it. All right, so you're in Kansas. You're playing with the Wranglers. Yes. Wearing your outfit, and your dad's driving you to the Knights of Columbus Hall.

Yes. You got a dream. Yes, indeed. That is the closest anyone's ever come to telling the truth right there, yes. And your old man's on board with it. Yes. That was just pretty good for a football coach. Yes.

Do you have other siblings? Yes. How many? I've got one. Uh-huh. Yeah. She lives in Arkansas. Okay.

Okay. You talk to her? No. All right. All right. So one went bad. Yes. There you go.

Okay. So anything I did was great. We got, all right. So one went bad. Yes, there you go. Okay. So anything I did was great. We got one good one. Whatever she wants to do, as long as she doesn't throw her life away. Exactly. My father basically said, just be happy, okay? I was like, okay. Right on.

So when did you do it? Did you finish high school and you went to the same school your dad taught at? Yeah. That's not easy. No, I skipped one class and he knew before the class was over that I skipped the class. Oh, my God. But that is so not fair. What were you doing?

What? She was a friend. I think we can talk openly about this. 40 years later, I don't think it's... That's the one you're going to worry about? We're just talking about David Crosby's kids, but you're afraid she's going to judge you on making out in a car when you're in high school

during a class? That's cute. I know. She's been dirty all along. Since 14. This chick was nothing but trouble. Nothing but trouble. All right, so that was going on well did your dad know about that um i i think it was i don't yeah you know how they do but they don't know you know they don't say anything back then they right the

parents didn't know what to say right the ones that you know it's just like but don't bring it up you know don't ask don't tell basically. The ones that, you know, it's just like, but don't bring it up. You know, don't ask, don't tell, basically. You know they know, but why bother saying it? Exactly, yeah. So basically when I came out right before I left for Los Angeles, or Boston, I forget where I came out. But I said, Dad, you know, I went through this whole thing. But you came out at home to them first.

Yeah, totally. Before, oh, okay. Yeah, before leaving, because they would. I'm leaving, you should know. I'm leaving, you should know I'm gay. Yeah. And he said, well, I don't understand it, but as long as you're happy. I said, cool, yeah.

That's great. From a Republican football coach. Indeed. Score one for that side, I guess, at least with your dad. Yeah, exactly. Right on. Yeah. So after you, you played in how many bands in high school?

Oh my gosh, I went through the Wranglers, the Showmen. All country. Well, by the time I was about a junior in high school, I was playing in kind of that pop cover band where I was playing Fleetwood Mac. What album was Fleetwood? Was that Rumors? Rumors, yeah.

It was Rumors already. We're the same age, so you're doing all that shit. Yeah, so I'm doing all that. Well, you graduated high school, and then where'd you go? I went to Berklee College of Music in Boston. My parents wanted to send me to college, and I said, no, just music school, please. That's all I want to do. And that's a good one. I went to berkeley college of music in boston my parents wanted to send me to college and i said no just music school please that's all i want to do and that's a good one i i went to college in boston that's the that's the music school yeah it's and it really is up to you whether you want

to get something out of it because i went for just a few weeks and that was i really wasn't into learning no scales for you no i was wooing girls. I just wanted to play. It's a real nerd school. Yeah. I mean, there's some real weird noodlers coming out of there. Yeah, and I actually wish I had at least stayed a year and learned some little bit more chops. I really had to fight. But, you know, the weird thing about chops, and I think that you're speaking to it now

in terms of like being where you're at now and knowing that your guitar playing, your guitar playing is in a place where you can hold up is that I, it took me a long time to realize that rock guitar, blues guitar, it's really, it's all the same notes and it's not about how sophisticated they are. It's the feeling you can bring to them. So when you can hold up, I mean,

you can hold up. I mean, you listen to Albert King. He's no, you know, it is what it is, but you know, it's singular and it's not that complicated.

So it's just a matter of confidence and feeling, right? Yeah, yeah, exactly. There's so much of it. And tone. So much of it. Oh, my God. What's my sound? Exactly.

So how long did you stay in Boston, though? Did you start playing out there? Yeah, I started playing in a restaurant, Ken's by George. Remember the Ken's Steakhouse Restaurant? Yes, yes. This one was his fancy adventure. In Cambridge? No, it was right across from the John Hancock,

right at Copley Square. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And first I started playing the cocktail hour from five to nine. Just you on the guitar? Me on the piano, actually. It was more of like a piano lounge. And then I'd play Barry Manilow medleys and stuff oh my god it sounds like this is why your period in hell yes indeed

that's exactly you wanted to be a working musician that's i actually i had when i got to boston i got a job as a security guard and i was so freaking miserable that i took i know that i took, I know, that I took my- Did you pick like a less gay job than a female security guard? No, nothing interested me. I didn't know how to do anything but stand around and- Did you wear a uniform? A uniform, yes, in a hospital. It was gnarly.

Did they count percocets and stuff? Mass General or stuff? No, it was Deaconess. Uh-huh. The Deaconess- Like in Brighton? Where the hell is it? It was somewhere out there.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I didn't know all right so okay so you're a hospital security guard you're playing barry manilow's song on the piano no less yes when did you lose your fucking mind let's see i well i got fired all of a sudden after playing there for a year a year a year yeah what happened i don't know i think they found out I was gay. You think that was it? That's the only time that I really think I might have lost a job because I was gay.

Took them a year. I know. That to me must have been an amazing display of restraint on your part somehow. That you didn't. By listening to these songs, it seems like most of the waitresses should have been in trouble. Well, but that's the drama. Remember about drama? Look, nothing but drama.

Okay. You made your name on standing outside someone's house. Yes, indeed. So that's where it grew. I was, you know, you're in the closet, except for the couple people that you tell, that you get to know, and then you find they're gay. And that's how it works when you're 18.

I was 18. That's how old you were? Yeah. and that's you know that's how it works when you're 18 right teen that's how old you were yeah okay so you leave kens i leave kens um i get a job for a minute at the copley plaza across the street and then it burns down and i i took that as a sign yeah and i went back home to kansas i did i was like and he went back to kansas to get to regroup to make some money because i was going to go to LA because I knew that's where I was going to get signed and that's where I was going to make the money. But at this time, were you writing songs?

Yeah, I started, but I wasn't playing them for people in public yet. Were they songs that appeared on records eventually? No, the oldest song that's on a record, on the first record, I wrote in Long Beach when I was playing in the girls' bars. Okay. Yeah, in Long Beach. All right, so you go back to Kansas. What do you do to make money?

Because now I can play. Oh, okay. No, I can play. So I go play at the Granada Royale. Oh, boy. Do you remember that hotel? No, how am I going to know? It used to be the-

In Kansas? No, it was a chain. It was like an embassy suite. Okay. And there was a lounge there called the La Veranda Lounge. Uh-huh. And so I went in there and played on the piano because I could do that. And I got, okay, I opened first because that's the gig you get first.

Yeah. I did the happy hour from five to nine, whatever. Your test gig. And I opened for, I swear to God, Rhett and Scarlett. That was their name. Were they an act? Yes. They were gone with the wind act?

No, they were like a club act, you know. would sing the songs sure and then eventually i got the job they got like i took i got their job they wanted something more modern maybe so yeah so so i i did that i and i made money i lived in kansas city and i had a little apartment i went to the clubs there. I got to know a lot of people. And then I left for Los Angeles. She got around. Are you taking all this in? Do you have any

questions now that she's here? I just keep checking. There's just four kids, right? That I know of, there's only four. All right, so there you go. So you're a professional musician and a professional lesbian by the time you get to L.A. Yes! Woo-hoo!

You've got everything. You can handle a guitar. Yes. And you can handle that other thing. Yes. Got it well in hand. And I have an aunt who lives in Silver Lake. Right here.

Actually, right here. Yeah. On Dahlia Street, she lived. And so I said, I'm coming out, and I'm going to sleep on your couch. Of course, my sister had just been out there and wreaked all sorts of havoc, so they were not looking forward. The problem. I know.

Right. Everywhere I went. And so I went out there, and I slept on her couch. And the funny thing, I found out that there's a lot of people trying to make it in the music business in Los Angeles. Really? You found that out, huh? Yeah. What year is this? This is 1982.

Okay. Yeah. Okay. So what's happening in music then? What's around here? It's all guns and poison hair. So that was hair metal at the peak of hair metal. As it's growing.

No, as it's growing. It peaked like in like 84. Right. These were the bands that were just starting. The Roxy and the Rainbow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it was right before they all hit super big.

So like the Fleetwood Mac thing was drifting. Yeah. So that whole- I got here thinking that I'd see Jackson Brown and the Eagles. They've been killed. Gone. They're killed. Annihilated by hair and guitars.

Yes, and it's all spandex. Go back up to Topangaanga you pussies indeed there's nowhere for me to play right and even if i got a gig you pay to play you don't make any money in this town and i quickly was running out of money and i hawked my typewriter yeah because i didn't hawk my guitar where were you so you're standing your hand standing at your aunt's. I'm living in Silver Lake. I'm looking around. I'm looking in the calendar section trying to find gigs.

What are you looking to play, though, at that time? Are you looking to... I'm looking... I didn't know how... How do you do it? You get out here. It's what you do.

I didn't know what to do. But you had your songs. What was the dream, though? I had a demo. I'd made a demo of my four original songs. With a band? No, it was just me.

Really? Me and, you know, because I played the... Singer-songwriter thing. Yeah. So I have my demo and so you start sending it out to record companies. They get a billion of these, right? And I'm looking for management.

I'm looking for whatever. And so I got the calendar section out. Yeah. And I just went to where live music and I called all these places. You know, can I audition? Can I audition? Can I audition? Right. And I finally, finally i called a place it was called the candy store yeah and it was on a sunset it's it was the coconut teaser later oh yeah it's that place

right there on crescent yeah right boom it's right there but but in 1982 it was called the candy store yeah i didn't know anything about it i went down during the day and auditioned played a couple songs and she says you know what we have this little cabaret there's the dance part of the club but we have this little cabaret that we have live music and we don't pay anything but you can come play a 20 minute set i said i'm here yeah so this is my first gig in la yeah and i go home and i show up that night and it's an all-black nightclub it's and not but not only is it set up all-black night club it is the all-black nightclub marvin gaye is in there uh i i meet stevie wonder get out the basketball players you know abdul jabbar there it's the hot black all black guys blind black

guys coked up black guys all of of them, they're all in there. Oh, it was amazing. But I quickly changed my set list and did some, I was a huge hit. I was a huge hit. You did it? Yeah, it was great. I would play there like once a week for 20 minutes. And one time I got The Door, which was was i think it was about 50 bucks i was but in the meantime i had met a girl and gone down to long beach right where i was in a club

that there was a piano in the corner i said hey do you have live music they said no but do you want to come play i started playing they they made a position where i would play from five to nine before the disco and that's when i started playing in the girls nightclubs in Long Beach so there was you say that like there were many was there a whole circuit of girls nightclubs um well there well there was a circuit yeah maybe there was about four or five in the and I'm talking Long Beach Pomona uh-huh uh Pasadena I ended up playing in Pasadena right here yeah out um were these secret girl bars secret I mean it's the 80s. We're not advertising.

Right. You know, but it's word of mouth is how it gets around. Yeah. So, and... That's just the unfortunate use of words. Looking back at her wife. Yeah. Word of mouth made her self-conscious just to illustrate what's happening here.

Okay. But it's all going to work out. out it is it's good for everybody that's what my mom says it all turned out this is like one-sided couples counseling right now you guys are gonna have the other discussion in the car afterwards oh no we're gonna have a great time no you have no idea this is great this is awesome you have any questions any other questions when to um i'm good so far. Okay. I love where you're going. All right, so now you're like this strange kind of rock folk cab racing at lesbian bars.

Yes. In Long Beach, Pomona, and Pasadena. Yes. That's a niche market. But they're paying me money. I get it. Nobody else is making money in this town singing music. Yes, it is a bit of a niche market but they're paying me money nobody else is making money okay in this town yeah singing music right yes it is a bit of a niche market so i'm sure they all knew you and they were they

excited yes i mean i would have 20 30 people oh yeah that's a big crowd it was yeah you know when you're you've been alone in a club yeah there's one person there's the guy at the door and the yeah yeah there's three people yes not talking to each other it's awful right yes so so what happened was the the one bar in pasadena uh some i would play on sunday nights and these girls would come in after their soccer game and of course of course so they would play soccer and then softball season yeah exactly no it's perfect no it's absolutely there's no field hockey out here so so i guess you have to be in boston for the field hockey players yes no that's that yeah so this was just the the soccer girls and they one of their i think she was the coach but she was a straight woman she was straight and she was married to

somebody in the music business right that's the so it's a soccer team coach married to somebody the questionable straight woman married to the guy in the music business that doesn't know she's at the club right anyway no they brought her down yeah and she eventually brought him to he became he was my manager for 30 years really yeah i just recently changed management last year but he was the guy he had managed bread and i mean he was they were huge legitimate yeah he was legitimate in the business yeah i remember bread's greatest hits was a popular a track in the station wagon when i was a kid guitar man was a guitar baby i'ma You. I don't remember the other ones. Those are the big two.

I found a diary underneath. Oh, he had a billion hits. He had a billion. Yeah. If, if a picture paints... Oh, is that theirs too? Oh my God, that's theirs, yes. That guy.

That guy. Yeah. But that shit was over. That shit was done. And he had, you know, he had left to go, you know, work up his end now. So he was a manager in Pasadena trying to- But he was inbred? No, no, no.

He just managed. Okay. No, no, no. So he made a fortune, that guy. Yeah, he made a fortune, but didn't get part of the publishing. But anyway. Oh. Yeah, because he was just manager.

And now they weren't working. So he wasn't making any money. Oh, the publishing's where it's at. Yeah. So then he doesn't want to come see me, doesn't want to come see me. Finally, his wife's like, no, you got to come down to see her he came to see me sign me right there he starts instead of taking me out of the clubs because i was already had it had my little niche market going making some money he starts bringing record company executives to the gay clubs to see me so for five years smart

smart but it takes five years. Everyone in town saw me. Everybody. Again and again. Over and over and over. And I would get all the way up to the top of Warner Brothers or Virgin Records or EMI. All of them. With what, though? With what exactly?

Let's see. They heard Like the Way I Do. Yeah. I was doing that. But they had to picture you. Yeah. They had to figure out how we're going to. This is 1983.

Yeah. How are we going to band behind her her what do we and this is 1983 to four when it's hard sell yeah right yeah so it's not it's not easy and they don't hear the you know the hit songs and this is right and and at that point i imagine a and r they're starting to lose their vision you know what i mean like i think like it was one of those periods where no one knew how to pick a hit because a lot of people were out of whack with what was happening. Totally.

Right. Totally, totally, totally. So five years. So it takes a long time until finally a guy who was a producer who knew blah, blah, blah, blah brings Chris Blackwell of Island Records down. Now Chris Blackwell, he's an English dude, made all his money in Jamaica,

brought Bob Marley to the world, U2, Robert Palmer, really cool independent record label. He walks in, he hears four songs and goes, why aren't you signed yet? He was like, what's wrong with everybody? This is obvious. And signed me right there you know made the first record because he was outside the box yeah already just by the nature of the he was

doing more roots music world music and like he knew he had a marketing uh machine in place for stuff that was you know not unusual right yeah yeah and that was the deal that was it boom first record and then you know they put you with a band. Oh, you want to know? Okay. Well, he kind of signs me and then runs away because that's what he does. He goes away. And I'm like, here I am. Call so-and-so.

Yeah. And so now I've got to make my first record. Well, I don't have a band. So I'd done a few demos and knew a few musicians. So I called him up and said, hey, let's get together and make this record. and knew a few musicians, so I called him up and said, hey, let's get together and make this record. And my manager puts me with this producer that he knows from Northern California named Jim Gaines.

He had done like a Steve Miller band and a little bit of Journey, a little bit of... Big. Those were big. Those were big then, yeah. So I make this album. I go up there and make this album with him. It's a big production though, huh?

But it's a big production and it's all the big production and he put my little voice on top and so I made this whole record and I came

and I played it for Chris Blackwell and he goes well I'm gonna I really have to tell you I really hate this record I was like that's it

it's over done my career's over and he just didn't know what to do and the guys I'd been working with my musicians,

they called me and said, look, we've been to the bar, we see what you can do. That's what Chris Blackwell wants. In the meantime, I had taken pictures for the album cover and if you know that, the first album, the photo of me in the leather jacket kind of jumping up, he actually had that photo blown up, sent to the studio, put on the thing.

He said, make this record. Yeah. He said, make the record that fits this photo. Right. And so he gave us four days. Yeah. So I made that whole first record. Based on?

On that, yes, on that picture and four days. Yeah. But that was just sort of like being supported by these dudes that understood what you could do. They knew it was a lot. And just kept it straight. Or kept it who you are. Yeah. Not straight.

And that got a lot of attention, the first record. It charted. Underground, it was yeah, I didn't have a big hit. It was Bring Me Some Water. It was the first didn't have a big you know hit it was bring me some water you know it was the first that people who were really into music right it was these great radio stations back then there was a great radio station here in la yeah um that went away a couple years later but it was there was just a it was a really kind of a tracy chapman came out at

the same time it was a it was a kind of a renaissance in music sorry so now you're on the radar yes you're a real deal yeah now you gotta deliver the goods yeah so the second album same same situation yes same band same uh same guys i had written the songs i i was making the second album when i was nominated for a grammy for the first in the rock female category and and at that time, though, you were sort of a singular voice. And you still are, really, for female rock. I mean, there was... In my mind at that time, there had not been someone with that much

earnestness and balls, for lack of a better word, and swagger. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Than you. So I'm sure there were a lot of people going like what the fuck who's this chick with the guitar yeah i mean there was some punk rock stuff going on yeah but it was very different i didn't fit in any of those categories this is more like american

kind of you know respecting the roots you know what i mean like my bruce racing was you know my guy right it was always what would bruce do yeah there's a whole thing yeah what would he do generally exactly well it's like you know where's clarence yeah right it's funny i almost i wanted a saxophone player and i went that's too much i can't then then i'm just there's a girl yeah were you meeting these guys at this time like after your first record where they're after my first record i did meet bruce springsteen the first time I met him was at Dantana's you know sure right yeah I'm sitting at the bar

waiting for a table I hope a woman reminds me of some girl yeah waiting for some

I'm sitting at the bar and I look across to the door and Bruce Springsteen has walked in and he's picking up his to-go order I'm like

oh fuck that's Bruce Springsteen oh my god and he's picking up his to-go order. I'm like, oh, fuck, that's Bruce Springsteen. Oh, my God. So I'm sitting there and he looks across and recognizes me. That was my brain exploded. And he looked at me and he said, and he waved and smiled. Hey!

And he kind of motioned me to come over. I was like, fuck! And so I go over there he's like how you doing i'm just getting some chow if we're gonna take it back to the shack you know yeah he's living in beverly hills in the huge place right and he says uh who was the one of his guitar one of his players and i can't remember the name was it danny he he had shown him my album and he knew and he'd just seen when I was on the Grammy Awards. And so that was a big moment.

And I actually talked to him a lot and we ended up performing. He played on my Unplugged in 94. He came on and we did Thunder Road. So yeah, huge dreams. Huge dream comes true. That's all coming true. So, okay. So you do two more records before the huge record.

Yeah, I do. I make three records and then- They all do okay. records before the huge record. Yeah, I do. I make three records, and then- They all do okay. They all do just fine. Right. And the third record was kind of just a little bit less, so I got that scared kind of, oh my God, what am I doing? Yeah.

And so- Why do you think that happened? Well, the third record came out in 1990, and it's- Everything's changing again. Everything's changing. Music, business, grunge, all of a sudden, it's and everything's changing everything's changing music business grunge all of a sudden it's nirvana right all of a sudden it's sound garden and it's guns and roses and this sort of rock and roll as this crazy heroin whatever that was that grunge thing seattle chaotic yeah yeah

it was but still you know it's weird though because in in defense of like and i'm gonna do it publicly but pearl jam was about straight ahead as you could be so like you know, it's weird, though, because in defense of, like, I'm going to do it publicly, but Pearl Jam was about as straight ahead as you could be. So, like, you know, whatever Nirvana and the Grunching was doing, whatever chaos and pushing the envelope was going on there, still, like, Pearl Jam 10. Was amazing. I mean, you know, that was straight up. So, it was still there.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I recognize that in them. Yet, this was Seattle, and they were now calling it alternative. And I just missed the alternative boat, so I'm not alternative. You're a misser of boats. You're a professional misser of boats. floating out there my third album kind of and i actually started working with like some there were these new things called you know uh loops or these uh you know the what they do now how they how they make loops and create songs from other songs now right right sampling yeah sampling yeah i don't know i couldn't think that sampling so i i tried a couple samples and i was kind of

experimenting on the third album right and and i look back and i love so much about the third album it was kind of experimental for me but i saw a ship going away and i went wait a minute wait a minute so i said okay i better get back to what i know and love and do and that's blues rooted rock and roll right right and so i picked up my guitar and put and i started i'm the only one i'm like that's that's the anchor of this album is going to be that feeling and it's just going to be rocking yeah why why fuck with that yeah exactly all time exactly and also like because you know in the tradition of like you know seagr or even petty to a certain degree i mean they're they're it's interesting that you say you experimented, but I could hear in your voice, you were like,

I was desperately trying. Yes. To lock in with whatever the fuck was going on at that time. Yes. Because I wasn't going away. Right. Because I needed to do this and want to do this and I'm not done. I'm so not done.

Yeah, yeah. And then you did it. Boom. And at the same time i'm getting enough notoriety that people are now asking me personal questions so the third album you know and i and i obviously had this underground lesbian following they knew everybody knew right it was again don't ask don't tell though right and it started I finally did an interview with this guy for my third album, during the third album run, and it was for a music magazine.

And he, I did my talk where I would use no pronouns, you know, they, my partner, whatever. And he changed all my pronouns to my boyfriend. Oh, my God. He did. And it, I lost my mind. And I said, I have to come out because now everyone's going to think I'm lying. And that's the last thing I want to do.

Did you, would you give that guy a piece of your mind? No, back then it was like, you know, but it was just, but it bugged me. That's heinous. It bugged me enough. Yeah. Maybe you ought to thank that guy. Yeah, exactly.

You know, it pushed me out there's like look this is what i'm afraid of i'm afraid that people are gonna and then why am i you're afraid that your lesbian following was going to be yeah she's a sellout that i wasn't being honest yes that i was being a sellout and it wasn't worth it at all right so i decided to come out i didn't know how i thought i was going to do it on arsenio hall uh-huh so i knew my fourth album you know i'm putting that out and i'm gonna and in the meantime I'm doing work, political work with a lot of gay and lesbian groups that help get Bill Clinton elected. And they have this inauguration ball and it's the most fun because it's all the gay people, of course. I was there for that.

That was crazy that weekend or whatever it was. Yeah, 93. His first inauguration. January 93. It was wild because we had not been in the White House for a long time. And it just was like Hollywood, man. It was crazy. It was crazy inauguration. January 93. It was wild because we had not been in the White House for a long time. And it just was like Hollywood, man. It was crazy. It was crazy.

Yes. Because my buddy worked for Clinton at the time. And I went down there. And Chuck Berry played at one of the inaugural balls. Oh, yeah. And I met Chuck Berry. Rock and roll was back in the White House. We were there.

Yeah. And us gays were being gays. Yeah. And we were allowed to be part of the party. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so i came out at the inaugural ball there with everyone i was like i'm on stage yeah i'm gay i'm well it was it was just a big party and there's a microphone and right right and just stepped up like hey

information katie lang had said some things and uh there was a couple other people there and she was out she had just come out a few months before that. What's she up to? She does her kind of Tony Bennett thing and sing. I haven't heard or seen her in a long time. Yeah, I know. So she goes out. She's already gay.

Yeah. And now the pressure's on. Yeah. And you just take the mic. Boom. So I come out. What'd you say exactly? Oh, I said, well, she introduced me. Melissa Etheridge and I come out. Yay. And everyone's screaming said well it was they she introduced me Melissa Etheridge

and I come out yay and everyone's screaming hollering because it's one thing that I'm just even there supporting them right and then I'm like oh I just want to say I'm just so proud to be a lesbian and went it's done over did you feel different did you oh I did I walked I walked and I it was like it was like a match lit. It's like, now you're on a journey. Here you go. Right. It's all out.

Boom. In the press, it was like, close inauguration, blah, blah, blah. And there's a little tiny little. And Melissa Etheridge came out as a lesbian. Still under the radar. I missed the big boat. Still not a hit record there. But it became the thing that everybody talked about when I did. So all of a sudden, my publicity went from, I a rock and roller playing to she says she's a lesbian.

And then everyone wanted to talk to me. All of a sudden, I'm doing the morning shows. All of a sudden, I'm doing. All of a sudden. And this is coinciding with the fourth album. Come to my window. Yeah, come to my window. So it's all.

It just went crazy. And it must have been a relief in terms just even performing that you could enter a situation that transparent and just push whatever you wanted to just be there and i tried it was like i'm not gonna you know i'm not gonna sit and go i'm a lesbian i just just gonna be myself and if they want to talk about it they can bring it up great fine right well what started happening is every gay person everywhere yeah Yeah. Came out to me. They still do. For a minute.

Yeah. They still do. Everybody. Well, they, I, well, the,

the idea of, of, of wanting to be heard and wanting to be public and, and finding a way to do that because it's, it, it seems to me mostly employers and, and family. It's so frightening for everybody still,

even, even in the climate that is fairly embracing it's got to be 80 90 more embracing than it is now oh yes yes when i see kids now who are openly get you like you know 18 19 that are just like what a relief oh god to not go through those years and and back when the only place you can meet someone is a place where you had to drink and of course you were drinking to get your courage up because you here you are doing this bad thing and it just leads to

leads to bad people but yeah when you're 18 those are some great relationships you're drinking at a gay bar because you can't go anywhere else you might get into trouble maybe possibly

you might be in an age inappropriate situation with an old pervert oh yeah I know that's how your generation learned I know

that's how we learned thank your generation learned it's that's how we learned you know there's nothing wrong with that hard-earned wisdom if you live through it yeah yeah so all right so that album's huge makes you a superstar and then uh you do a few other records yeah and then you're just kicked in the teeth. Kicked in the teeth. By life. Life. That's what happened. I know. And you know what? That's the crazy thing about being famous. Yeah.

It's, I believe that the whole purpose of life is to kind of get your teeth kicked in and see how much you can, how high you can go. I've had enough. Yeah. Well, it means, just think of what you're, you're banking away. I mean, some people, they call it karma. I don't quite believe in the whole karma thing. Right. You believe in conditional karma?

No, I believe in, we're all doing this and we're trying to not have to come back and do it anymore. Yeah, yeah. And so the opportunity to do it on such a high level and kind of go through big things. When you're famous, you have the opportunity to really transform some stuff for a lot of people. Or get the points. Yeah. Karma points. Get the karma.

So there you go. So you did the gay thing. So I did the gay thing. Yes. And yes, it was horrible to have a breakup in public. Yes, it was horrible to feel like I let down a whole community. Because here I was regarded as there's this perfect relationship. I'm out.

We have children. That about killed me when I thought, really, we're going to divorce. And I've just shown the world what a gay family looks like. And now we're going to. That just about, that broke my heart more than even really losing the relationship because i really needed to be out of that relationship right but just that i felt like i let down so many people and i just became tabloid was ah that was that was difficult but also but in retrospect you must it must be heartening to know that it also showed that i mean what are you guys supposed to you like the pressure's on you it's like you can't you know you have to be the perfect family if you're going to be gay and out and have kids and have a family perfect it's like that's that's

like middle-class american conservative bullshit and the fact is that everybody goes through breakups and drama and 51 of us yes right and thank god because i learned so much i went through it and learned so much and so so then the funny thing then then when i get cancer later yeah after i go through all this breakup and i go down i'm eating like shit and i'm just really feel that from the gay community though they're like you did you know they were they felt sorry for me mostly the gay community was like oh because they know but what the way what but how does anyone think of relation like the Like the humanization of relationships on, you know, it doesn't matter what gender base it is.

Yeah. It is what it is. Yeah. You know what I mean? It's probably even harder sometimes. Yeah. Because you, yeah. Making note, Linda?

No, Linda's been in the business so long she's been. The gay business? Well, that business. No, the industry business. Yeah, yeah. She's so supportive so supportive knows everything she's the easiest way right but it's just but not that easy well she is you apparently are easier but from everything i've heard here but uh no but like this the pressure of that of like you know having to maintain something

because it has a political momentum to it without the human component it's got to be a lot of pressure but so you just felt like they felt sorry for you but they must know in their hearts it's like well what are they going to do well it was at the same time it was me and julie broke up and anne and ellen broke up like within the same two months oh yeah so all the and it was and they're both going back to men and it was just like the disaster it was like the lesbian party is over right you know everyone who was you know gay until graduation now we've graduated and they're all back you know but it's but it's but but on some level you must have known like mother shit happens yeah and you know my fault for being attracted to those kind that are like, you know, right there.

So here, Ellen and I are, we're single. But now we're going out on the town and we're Sinatra. Oh, good, good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're like, hey. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're free. We're single.

Loving it, loving it. Any other straight ladies want to try something out? I know. No, we were done with that. Okay. We went to, you know, so I was single and, you know, and the world was changing. This is 1999. Yeah.

And how long before, like, when did you first get diagnosed with the cancer? That was 2004. Oh, so you were out there and you were in your second relationship. Yeah. And it was, and she was gay through and through. I just saw her papers, everything. I was like, yes, you are definitely gay. The resume?

Yes. When did it start? Yes, exactly. Who have you been with? Oh, you've been with her? All right, you're gay. You've got to be gay to be with her. I know, exactly.

Wow. I don't even know if I'm that gay. Oh, great. Now I'm that gay. Oh, great. Now I'm getting warm. Yeah. Okay, so, and I start, I kind of get disillusioned with my music. Music's changing. You did like three or four albums in this time.

Yeah, I did. And really, yeah, I did Breakdown and Skin and Lucky. Those were the three I was doing. And I'm kind of like, okay, where am I musical? Where is anyone musical? Still selling okay? Yeah. You know, well, less and less. Each album I'd i was doing and and i'm kind of like okay where am i music where's anyone still selling okay yeah you know well less and less each album i'd say was less and less and um and they're sad albums because i'm in a sad place yeah you are very pretty honest with the what you're going through yeah yeah and i'm like you know here i am i'm i'm in my late 30s

you know i kind of what is what is music what do i want to do do am i just going to play now what what what what what well do you well you sort of i imagine the biggest trap to try to avoid is that once you know the record company and you get the you know it's like you got a thing yeah you just make that record again right do it over and over and over again right and and and all of a sudden it's not quite all of a sudden music's changing and and so i i uh i do my album lucky and i turn it into my record company who's leo cohen's head of my record company at that time he's the head of island and he's the big guy he's head of warner brother he's like head of everything right and um so he's all uh uh hit music oriented right so he after i turn my record in he says we have this song from this

other band and i've never recorded anybody else's stuff it's always been my stuff and it nearly broke my heart because it was basically look if you don't unspoken if you don't do this song which they think can be hit song they're really not going to work your record right so and i listened to the song and it's like and it's on my it's unlucky it's called breathe and it's a it breathe it was this band called green wheel that they green wheel didn't want it because it's such a hit song they didn't want to release it they got all you know we're independent so they basically kicked them out took the song where are they now exactly exactly gave the song to me gave the song to me it said we want you to do it i do it it gets some radio play it breaks my heart because it's it's not me

it's like i sold out i felt i sold out right i i basically looked up to the heavens and went okay what do you want me to do and the next morning i found a lump on my president i went wait a minute there's your next few years that's not what i mean and yet it was the best thing that ever happened to me because i stopped i canceled my tour i i stopped my life my whole life went over me and i unfortunately went on chemotherapy which is horrible but it was a dose dense because i could stay home so it was like this nasty nasty horrible why do you why do you say that unfortunately like you in retrospect you would have done no yeah i i i'm that radical sort of health person that i i believe that chemotherapy is really a bad idea that the science behind it is we're going to kill every living cell. Okay, but it saved your life, right? No, no.

No. No. Me changing my health habits saved my life because there's plenty of people who do chemotherapy and die. Plenty. From chemotherapy. A lot of times, yes. Yes.

Now, and I mean, it's a radical point of view and a lot of people don't want to hear it and they think it's like, you're blaming the person with cancer. I say people have a responsibility for their health. If they're going to eat sugar, which is pure acid in your stomach, if you're going to treat your body badly, it's going to break down eventually. I mean, the degenerative diseases are that. They're heart disease, cancer. These are things because we're killing ourselves with stress and food.

I made that change. I'm living. Chemotherapy is an acid they throw in you, hopefully crossing their fingers that if there's any cancer left in you, it will kill you. They don't know that it does that. So I think in 10, 20 years,

they're going to look back and go, oops, sorry about the chemotherapy. I'm a radical on that. But I think in 10, 20 years, they're going to look back and go, oops, sorry about the chemotherapy. I'm a radical on that. But you had everything removed though. Yeah, I had the cancer taken out. The surgery is great. We are great. The medical industry is great at getting cancer out.

Awesome. It's the choices later so that maybe if it doesn't come back and it all turns into numbers, they've broken it down to like a science of numbers. I walked away from that. so you changed your life but spiritually spiritually absolutely big part of it like what what'd you do what was the first application of spirituality you said no chemo i'm gonna change well i stopped my chemo i took five chemo and then i stopped it because i i said this the the and i called i said what

what percentage will this give me if i continue killing myself this and i was in danger of having neuropathy which is where you lose uh feeling in your hands i'm like this is my life i can't lose feeling in my hand forget it right and at the same time i was alone like it hurt to hear things when i was like on chemo or see things so i would be alone in a darkened room for days and days and days and days and days and days just my thoughts and basically it was like the biggest meditation ever i my thoughts stopped i went through my life two or three times and it just the tape rolled off the the reel and then i realized wait a minute what's this this is spirit yeah there's this. This is the higher part of me that that noise of my life gets in between.

And I was able to access it. I imagine that's what, when the yogis climb up on top of the mountain, you go away, when people used to remove themselves, that's what they would eventually find that's possible in our human self, that our, this paradigm that we're in the the busy work right the left brain world that we're in doesn't let us see that spiritual side the avoidance absolutely yeah and you saw the spirit side yeah it was very clear to me and and you stay in touch with that yes it's further away now of course because i my my busy left brain life has taken

over and i'm back into the world, you know, doing all this. Desire, guitar, money. All those things, money, cars, kids, you know, all that stuff that you question, but that are the things that. No sugar though. No, low sugar. You know what, I've taken a, because I also realize that the absence of all this is not the answer either. No. That we are made to run with that contrast.

And I do what is called a 70-30, everything. I look at my plate, and if it's 70%, you know, whole foods, whole grains, vegetable, fruits, blah, blah, blah. Okay, then I can have 30% of whatever it is. Ice cream. Well, ice cream's a big, I actually don't, I packed away from ice cream. But my sugar is probably a much healthier sugar. I'm just in better shape than I've ever had. You just deal with whole sugars, made fruit sugars, no processed sugars.

Yeah, no processed, yeah. You don't deny yourself everything. There you go. Right. Exactly. Balance. Balance. Right.

And so what was the record that came out of the cancer? Well, that was, see, that was when I was, out of the cancer oh well that was see that was when i was the awakening right and that was a very spiritual i went i actually called my record company i said don't even talk to me i'm going to turn you right i'm going to give you a record if you want to sell it fine if you don't that's fine too it really doesn't matter anymore because my music is about me and i made the awakening which is a part of i wanted to explain through my music how i sort of came into this spiritual how was that received uh it was received it was the first critically well received album that i'd ever made it was yeah you have to go through i know

it was it was like on the top 20 rolling stone it was the first of course it didn't it barely sold anything because it wasn't really where people understood me at and then the next one was fearless love i was i was like okay i'm gonna take the spirituality i'm gonna put it kind of back into your pants into body yeah and then so i'm like okay i'm getting my my muscle back people know me now i've been on the grammys yeah bald and that that was that was insane that was like one of those kind of like holy shit moments i'm realizing for me it was just a personal little personal experience of okay i'm not gonna let this cancer get me down i'm gonna you know get back up and ride that horse again and it went out into the world like a shot but that song come out i know the opportunity that's what happened

is i got the call and went well i don't want anyone else to sing that song. I need to sing. I have the opportunity to sing that song that I've sung since 1968 when she did it. I have the opportunity to sing that song. Peace of my heart. Yeah. Peace of my heart. That song is just...

It's the quintessential rock and roll lady song. Yeah. It's the best. I don't know where she came from. Oh, man. You know, when you really look back at those people and you realize how short they burned and where some of them were coming from, it's like, how the fuck did that happen? Yeah, well, that's why. When I looked at that, when I looked at all the ones I loved and they all died, I went,

I have to make another choice here because I don't want to die. I want to be famous and I want to do a good job here, but I don't want to die. Well, that's the amazing thing. I mean, I have to assume that maybe it's wrong of me, but you've made a good living. Yes. And you've been okay since probably that Yes I Am record, right? Yes. And so it was really creative choices that you were up against and fighting for your life, obviously, and trying to reel in the libido occasionally.

After a while. Control it. Yes. After two alimonies, I'm fine now with... Is all that shit settled down? All that shit has settled down. And it's because of the kids. You really don't want the kids to ever get involved with that drama.

Yeah. And now you two are good. How long have long you two been together we've been together four years we just got married in may was that amazing or it was amazing to legally it meant so much it did it does mean so much to get married to actually we went to the courthouse in santa barbara which is a beautiful courthouse and you know we walk in we walk in, the guy's like, we said, we want a marriage license. He's like, okay. He pulls out the little, you know, and. He didn't say something like, a lot of you types are coming around.

I could tell they were like, yeah, all right, here we go. Here comes some more of them. Yeah, here's some more. Yeah. Come on. We have singularly raised the, you know, the state treasury because we all got married. Probably not. It probably was factored into their choice. I think so.

But you've been very vocal, you know, in gay rights for like, what, 20 years now, one way or the other. Yeah. It's when I came out, I realized that I got asked the questions and I had an opportunity to say, this is what I feel. And this is our position and this is human rights. Sure. I know it's weird. It's crazy what people get hung up on, isn't it? Yes. I don't always, hardly ever understand it.

Well, do you want to try and sing? Sure. What song do you want to do? Wait, can I do a new one? Oh, absolutely. Do whatever you want. Do that one where I walk into the bar and do Take My Number? Yeah.

This is Take My Number. It's the second song on the This Is Me album. It goes something like this. Do you mind if I sit down next to you? I remember you from school You seemed to have a good heart Way back then You were gonna make it big But it's divorce now

With a couple kids Brings you back to these parts Everybody stumbles Everybody hits the ground No use running scared When those changes come around And you don't know what might Be waiting for you tonight

You really shouldn't drive You've had too much to drink and you shouldn't be alone for all you're gonna do is think so take my number or I can take you home yeah

we can burn a cup of coffee we can sit all night and talk but there's a diner always open just around the block. So take my number, or I can take you home. All those dreams that were gonna set us free. What did we ever know at 23 about what we

really want Everybody's got a fire that's always gonna burn No way to put it out All we ever do is learn And you don't know what might be waiting for you tonight oh you really shouldn't drive

you had too much to drink and you shouldn't be alone where all you're gonna do is think you should take my number or i can take you home, yeah We can find a cup of coffee We can sit all night and talk There's a diner always open Just around the block So take my number Or I can take you home Take you home Take you home

Take you home Take you home Honey, I can take you home Do you mind If I sit down next to you I remember you from school you seem to have a

real good heart you really shouldn't drive you had too much to drink you should not be alone for all you're gonna do is think you should take my number For I can take you home

We can find a cup of coffee We can sit all night and talk There's a diner always open Just around the block Take my number For I can take you home. Oh, take my number, honey, I can take you home. Oh, yeah, that was amazing.

That was amazing. Thank you. Thanks for talking to me, Melissa. Oh, it's my pleasure, yeah. That was amazing. That was amazing. Thank you. Thanks for talking to me, Melissa. Oh, it's my pleasure, hon. How was that? Was that... Did you cry? I cried twice.

Melissa Etheridge, what an amazing experience that was. I really just loved it. Love her. That's our show. Thank you for hanging out. Again, have a good holiday. Be safe. I hope you get what you want. I hope you enjoy giving.

If you're giving, I hope you like that just for what it is and not for how it will be received. Because that's a sad thing. When you give and you don't get what you're expecting for something back. One thing or another back and it doesn't come. And then you're like, giving's horrible.

Tricky business. Gifts. But I hope it all works out. Go to WTFpod.com. Get that free app. Get that premium app. We're putting a special, a whole episode for vinyl lovers. A whole premium episode if you upgrade to premium.

I'm going to be doing more of that. I've said that before, but I think I'm going to be doing more of that. I don't think I'm going to play guitar today. I know. Some of you are really bummed out. I know. I can hear the disappointment. We just had a song, though.

Okay. Okay. hear the disappointment. We just had a song, though. Okay. Okay. It's okay. I don't even want to go to holiday parties. I don't even want to go. Boomer lives! It's hockey season, and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. We'll be right back. Yes, because those are groceries, and we deliver those too, along with your favorite restaurant food, alcohol, and other everyday essentials. Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age.

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