WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 564 - Melanie Lynskey

Episode Date: December 31, 2014

Actress Melanie Lynskey is always an engaging screen presence, whether in movies like Up in the Air or Heavenly Creatures, or in TV sitcoms like Two and a Half Men. But she probably never thought the gift of a cookie would jumpstart a deeply involved and emotional conversation, as it did when she brought one to Marc's garage. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs and mozzarella balls, yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats. Get almost, almost anything. Order now. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. Calgary is a city built by innovators.

Innovation is in the city's DNA. And it's with this pedigree that bright minds and future-thinking problem solvers are tackling some of the world's greatest challenges from right here in Calgary. From cleaner energy, safe and secure food, efficient movement of goods and people, and better health solutions, Calgary's visionaries are turning heads around the globe, across all sectors, each and every day. Calgary's on the right path forward. Take a closer look how at calgaryeconomicdevelopment.com. All right, let's do this. How are you? What the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fucking ears? What the fucking hooks? What the fuckericans? What the fucking avians? What the fucking delics? How are you?

So I assume that if you heard this, you made it. You made it through. You made it through last night. You made it into the new year. Welcome to it, if you frame things in that way. If you don't frame things day to day and you look at time and chunks of months and years, then welcome. Welcome to the first day of your new year. I don't know why I'm being abstract. Everybody doesn't think about it that way. I just don't have the capacity, folks. I don't have the capacity to think back properly. I don't know what I've done to my brain. I'm starting to think that the computer and my compulsive

Twitter activity and just the compulsive interaction I have with the Internet and whatnot is annihilating my ability to remember things in sequence. In other words, I believe that maybe my brain is becoming some reflection of the Internet. It's just random images, random phrases and thoughts that kind of interact with my search they're just ideas based on something that i have in my head and everything's moving at its own rate well first before i get into that as if it matters today on the show melanie linsky is here she's an amazing actress you might remember her from the movie Up in the Air, where she played George Clooney's sister who was getting married. She became sort of on the radar.

She came on the radar with Heavenly Creatures, which she was amazing in. She was a regular on Two and a Half Men. She was most recently in Happy Christmas with Anna Kendrick. She's got this new series coming out with the Duplass Brothers. But I've always loved her. She's one of those people I would see in a movie and I'd be like, who is that person? Who is that amazing person? I want to know that person.

And then I found her. I went and found Melanie Linsky. And I said, I want to talk to you, Melanie Linsky. And we had a beautiful conversation. And it's a great way to start the new year. It is exactly what this show is. It's two people talking, getting to know each other. But let's talk about this resolution shit because I know this is like, I know some people

maybe didn't have a great year. I had a pretty good year in most ways, but there's some part of me that's never allowing itself to be grateful or to acknowledge that things are okay. Or how about to acknowledge that things are, are good. What am I afraid of? See, this is weird thing I've been thinking about.

I think that shitty people know they're shitty and they just keep being shitty because that's, they don't know what else to do. That's where they're comfortable. That's their, their, it's like, that's their go-to thing intuitively. They're intuitively or reactively shitty, but intuitively they know they're being shitty. Now I'm not talking about sociopaths and you know, and some people are shittier than others, obviously, but maybe I'm talking about

the type of shitty that I am. That know that i have habits emotional habits that are are abusive and i know that they're diminishing and i know they hurt me as well as other people i know that through years of fucking doing it and feeling shitty about it here's the trick if you do shitty things or you feel shitty about your behavior is that you really got to question whether or not that feeling you get after doing something shitty or being a shitty person is really comfortable to you or familiar or consistent or whatever the fuck it is it's something you repeat doing and it's for that feeling because the actual act of being shitty and however you're shitty is is fleeting but however you feel after i mean obviously if

you feel nothing after it you're a sociopath and this doesn't even relate to you because you wouldn't even know what i'm talking about or you're a narcissist and again you wouldn't know what i'm talking about but people who are a little shitty a little emotionally stunted a little frightened inside uh a little emotionally guarded are are prone to hurting themselves and others a bit. I'm paraphrasing something I heard on, somebody sent me a speech of Jim Carrey, some graduation speech. He said something very interesting. I hate to paraphrase it, but he said,

be careful of the unloved. They will hurt themselves or they will hurt you. Something like that. The unloved. You know, what comes from that need? That if you weren't loved or you weren't loved properly

or you were duped somehow emotionally by your upbringing, what are you out in the world looking to do? What are you out looking for? Have you got a handle on it? Are you managing it? Sometimes that hole inside is just gnarly. There's fire and cyclones in there, and there's an incredible vacuum a horrible suction to it

there's a lot of uh you know lost lovers that are circling screaming inside the the uh the the metaphoric hole of self and they you know they can't get out because you got them locked in there i mean i guess the my point is for the new year i'm going to continue being less shitty. Is that okay? Because I'm seeing myself, I see myself getting older. Like that's starting to happen. I'm 51 and I can actually look in the mirror and be like, dude, dude, you're like, you know, you're like kind of a middle-aged guy.

I mean, I don't know what you're thinking with those pants. I do not think I'm designed to age gracefully. There's no indication by my mother or even my father that I will age gracefully unless I'm aware of it. Jesus, man, when you don't have kids and you don't have a wife or you don't have those kind of responsibilities, it's easy to perpetuate and remain emotionally immature and quite honestly a bit selfish but those are the choices i made so i have to you know i have to be aware of myself and make sure

that i'm empathetic you know in situations that demand it and that i'm uh you know a good person that i say thank you that makes sure people are okay around me i just can't make any broad resolutions why put myself why put the pressure on myself like that i want to keep doing good work i want to keep doing creative work i want to keep you know opening my heart if possible because you know when you're being shitty i know the people i'm talking to and i'm you know i'm still a little shitty i mean you hear it sometimes on this show i'm still a little shitty. I mean, you hear it sometimes on this show. I'm still a little shitty, but I know it, and I know that feeling.

That's where this theory came from, that shitty people know they're being shitty is because it's from me. So I'll tell you the progress I've made. All right, some of you have heard it. My mother just said, Mark, I like listening to your podcasts. I said, I know, Mom.

She goes, but I've been listening to them, and I know. She goes, they keep getting better, and I'm like, I don't know what she goes but I've been listening to him uh and I know she goes you're they keep getting better and I'm like I don't know what you're talking about she goes well maybe I said I'm I said I'm glad but I don't know what you're talking about she goes you just sound happier and that makes that makes me feel better it's my mom she doesn't really talk like that but I'm not really doing her voice justice but look I don't know if i'm happier but i know i'm older and i know i've grown exhausted of the shitty parts of who i am and the ones that i can sort of

temper or or work against i do that's not that's all i can do i know when i'm about to do something shitty when i'm about to hit send or i'm about to blurt some negative fucking abusive shit out or i'm about to like you know shit on myself i know when i'm about to do all that stuff and sometimes i literally out loud have to say dude what what is happening what's What's happening? What are you doing? What are you about to do? What the fuck are you thinking, stupid? See, that's a little judgmental,

but sometimes self-talk has to be a little harsh. What the fuck are you thinking, stupid? Yeah, try that one. That's a good one one when you're about to do something shitty what the fuck are you thinking stupid that'll probably work for a while all i know is that i'm happy to be alive i'm grateful for for my life and what's happened in it grateful that you like this show i like what i'm doing uh i don't always like me i don't know how i'm gonna age gracefully i'm completely neurotic about certain things i'm trying to do i'm trying to deal with those things i'm trying to be in a

relationship that's different than my other ones ah it's very hard man it's hard not to be in crazy time all right so now melanie linsky and i are gonna talk melanie linsky okay let's talk you can get anything you need with uber eats well almost almost anything so no you can't get snowballs on uber eats but meatballs and mozzarella balls yes we can deliver that uber Eats. Get almost, almost anything. Order now. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. Calgary is a city built by innovators. Innovation is in the city's DNA. And it's with this pedigree that bright minds and future thinking problem solvers are tackling some of the world's greatest challenges from right here in Calgary. From cleaner energy, safe and secure food, efficient movement of goods and people, and better health solutions, Calgary's visionaries are turning heads around the globe, across all sectors, each and every day. Calgary's on the right path forward.

Take a closer look how at calgaryeconomicdevelopment.com. OCTOUR I'm trying to watch my figure, Melanie. I'm sorry. Octour. I'm trying to watch my figure, Melanie. I'm sorry. What are you doing to me? Do you know the struggle I deal with? You don't need to worry about anything. Oh, that's all I needed to go through with the cookie.

But what about after you leave? Then where am I at? Just feeling cookie shame. Oh my God, it's like all butter. Yeah. A lot of butter. It's the worst thing for you in the world, but it's so delicious. I got, how can I not eat this?

I don't know. I'm eating it. You're supposed to eat it. That's why I brought it. You don't feel any struggle at all with that cookie right now? Yeah, I'm going to eat this cookie. But are you fighting it? Or is there any? No? No? You're like, I'm just going to enjoy a cookie but are you fighting it or is there is there any

no you're like i'm just gonna enjoy a cookie you are able to do that god that makes you a different person than me um i mean there's a little bit of a i don't know i struggled for a very long time about feeling awful about everything i ate so oh really yeah once i kind of gave that up i I was like, oh, God. How'd you give that up? Did you just sort of like go, fuck it? Or was there a process? There was a process.

Oh, really? Yeah. Were you just having a conversation? Or is this, have we started? Of course we started. Oh, God. How do you think this works? I haven't even put my lip balm on.

Oh, well, get on it. All right. You're the only, the second New Zealander I've had. Oh, you had Reece Darby. I heard that one. Was it all familiar to you? It was really nice to hear somebody talking about... Your home?

My home, yeah. Well, I need to talk about it because I've never been there. Oh, you should go there. You've been to Australia, though. You were saying... Yeah, I have. I've been to Australia. I'm not sounding disappointed, but like Australiaia you only go to those couple cities i did anyways

i'm sure there's plenty of other places to go i've only been to two of them they don't sell it too hard it's not like yeah i'd like to go inside the country and they're like no i don't know you know it's big yeah it's big and it's dry yeah new zealand seems lush it's very. Yeah, it's big and it's dry. Yeah. New Zealand seems lush. It's very lush. They're very different places. So you grew up there the whole time. Melanie Linsky. How'd you get that name? What kind of name is that? It's Irish. How is that Irish? It's just Irish. It is? Somebody told me at some point that the Lynch's had some kind of family feud and then some of them split off and- The Lynch's? Yeah. Is that all you know about them and the family feud? That some of them split off and the lynches yeah is that all you know about them and the family feud that's all i know and i heard that from jane lynch yeah so you're getting

historical information from jane lynch yeah it's weird because i just associate sk ey or sk y or sk i with polish russian jew melanie linsky to me, it's like she can't be Jewish from New Zealand. It doesn't exist there. I knew one Jewish family growing up. One. Where did they run from? I was obsessed. I wanted to be Jewish so badly.

What was it about? I don't know. The Jews. We lived in England for a year when I was six, and there were a lot of Jewish kids in my school. We lived in England for a year when I was six, and there were a lot of Jewish kids in my school, and there was something about it that spoke to my heart in a very particular way. And I didn't really have an understanding of what it was, but I was like, oh, this feels right to me. This is, I think this is, and I also, when I was little, I was always obsessed with being in the wrong family. I always thought that, like I would tell my little brother that we were adopted and stuff.

Oh, really? And our real parents were coming. Oh, really? They would be here eventually and take us back to our rightful home? Yeah, I was like, they're going to come one day. And they're Jewish? Yeah, I got convinced that they were Jewish. And then for a time I thought they were gypsies, maybe.

Of course, gypsies are good. Yeah. Well, you just felt comfortable amongst the Jews? Did you go to that girl's house or something? Was it mysterious? Well, my friend in New Zealand who was Jewish I was at her house every weekend. But when I was really little

and I first discovered it, I don't know why. It just made sense to me. I was like, oh, these feel like my people. I would go to their homes and I was like, yeah. This is right. And now you're in LA, so you've arrived. Yeah, exactly.

You're here. Yeah. Will you pull the mic in a little bit? Oh, yeah. My voice is very quiet. Why is that? You're an actress. I know.

Project. Pretend like you're doing an animated character. Talk into the mic. Did you know that we have met each other before once yeah at the tim yeah do you remember that i kind of remembered i was probably too startled too startled yeah i i've had i have you in a high place oh i was too startled then too we were sitting in a green room by ourselves and i felt very, very shy. And I was like, I'm not going to say anything. Right. And we were there and I was like, oh my God, that's a

woman from the movies. Really? She's much better than me. That's not, because I kind of looked at you at one point and you said, what am I eating too loudly? Because you're eating the salad. And i do in fact have a sensitivity to people eating too loudly but you weren't you weren't at all really no and i just was sort of like oh no and then i didn't know what i was gonna say i'm a fan of yours but i didn't say anything well i you didn't say anything so that made me awkward and and I just assumed, well, she's apparently I'm beneath talking to, and you're sitting there. I'm still shy.

Okay. I believe you. Okay. Well, I mean, I think that you, I'm probably not the only one, that at some point you plowed yourself into my unconscious with that first movie with Heavenly Creatures right yeah and there and you stayed there that you you burrowed in you made a home there and for the for the rest of my life i'm like that's a woman from that movie and there she is grown up being funny and there she is speaking like an american person and she did person. And that was my experience. Oh, my God.

What? It's so nice to know that I was in your unconscious this whole time. Yeah. Are you kidding me? Like, I would rather you be in every movie. That's so nice. That's so nice. Why can't you just be in every movie?

Is there a call we can make? You should be. I wish I was in every movie. I feel like I don't work that often. Why? What's that about? Why do I feel like that? No, why aren't you?

Do we need to call your agent? No. I mean, I don't get asked to do a lot of sort of bigger parts, and she's kind of on a thing right now where she doesn't want me to do little tiny things anymore. How'd she sell you on that? Oh, little tiny things. Yeah. She was like, oh, people always say, oh, she's so good in every little part that she does.

She's like, I want to stop hearing that. She wants you to do a big one? Yeah. I don't know. Bigger parts at least. I don't know. So how old were you when you did that movie, Heavenly Creatures? Seriously.

I had my 16th birthday on the set. I turned 16 making it. And that was like a, so you were still in high school or the New Zealand equivalent of high school? Yeah. And Peter Jackson was a local filmmaker at that time? He was. He was a local filmmaker who'd made a lot of disturbing horror movies. In New Zealand?

In New Zealand. And you knew them? Yeah. I really loved movies, so I knew his movies. He did a movie called Brain Dead, which I guess is called Dead Alive here. He did a movie called Meet the Feebles, which is just like puppets doing disgusting things. And this was a very famous murder case in New Zealand, and I heard he was going to make a movie about it,

and I thought, oh, no. That sounds awful. But then I read the script, and it was so delicate and beautiful. I mean, I auditioned for it before I knew anything about it. Were you acting regularly at that time, or what was your life like? I come from a very small sort of provincial town. It's way out on the coast and nobody really is a professional actor where I come from. Right.

So I was doing school plays and I would write plays and put them on at school and I'd do local theater. And, you know, I did like improv, comedy, theater, sports and stuff like that. In high school? In high school, yeah. And like, how small of a town? do local theater and you know i did like improv comedy theater sports and stuff like in high school in high school yeah and they're like is it how small a town like everyone knew each other small everyone knew each other pretty much really yeah i mean it's the province is quite big because there's a lot of farmers so the whole province is like 40 000 people what kind of sheep sheep yeah a lot of sheep a lot of sheep there's like I can get New Zealand lamb at Trader Joe's. Frozen.

Yeah. I know. I don't eat lamb, but it's there. Do you not eat meat? I don't eat meat. Always? Since I was 10. 10?

Mm-hmm. You have no problem with large cookies filled with butter, but meat? This makes me look terrible. I shouldn't have brought this cookie. I just ate my entire cookie. Did you? Not only did you bring it. Oh, I'm so impressed.

But you're going to eat it all. Well, I'm going to eat some of it what kind of person can just not eat it all at once some other sugar all right okay all right so you stopped eating meat because of what an experience with a thing all right now you're eating don't worry about it i'm very deathly afraid of mouth noises really yeah did you have a bad experience because my salad didn't bother you though that was a good sign that i missed i didn't you're not a bad eater and i are you kidding have you are you i have seen you eat that one salad i must have been inhaling it i don't eat anything slowly i generally chew my mouth open sometimes because

i'm so consumed with eating well i didn't. I'm a passionate eater. Maybe my passion for eating is what transcended that moment for both of us. If somebody's eating badly, I cannot think straight. I can't concentrate. Even if somebody is like three tables away from me in a restaurant and I can hear their mouth noises, I can't hold a conversation. Oh my God. It's a real problem. It's called a misophonia.

Is that true? It's a condition problem. It's called a misophonia. Is that true? It's a condition, yeah. Have you sought help? I'm thinking about it. It's that? I've thought about getting hypnotized. To not be affected by... Oh, really?

Yeah. Just like that? Yeah. What about people who make noise like... It's the worst. I can't do it. I can't stand it. I can't stand it. And, you know, I actually, it's very hard for me to listen to podcasts because people's

horrible mouth noises. I do that sometimes. You don't though. Okay. You really don't. I have some speech impediments. Do you? I have a rolling L.

Like I, it doesn't, I don't do it from my, like L, like la, la, la. I like la, la, la. So it's really W because I don't use my tongue. I use my throat. So I can't really form an L. So now you'll know that. I have a slight lisp that people don't notice. Because I guess it's just they're so caught up with what I'm saying.

I think so. I haven't noticed either of those things. Oh, I just fucked it up. I ruined the whole thing. I might as well just be like. Please don't leave. All like. Please don't. I'll leave. All right.

So don't leave. Okay. So why did you stop eating meat at 10? Oh, they showed us a documentary at school. They were doing a thing about New Zealand industries. And they were like, oh, here's our lamb industry. And here's how that works. And they took a little lamb and put him through the whole process.

And they were like, here's how he gets on your plate. And it was horrifying to me. Really? Yeah, I couldn't. And I said, I'm never eating meat again. And then I never did. It was like they showed the slaughter and the sort of. Yeah.

It was really intense. And then the next day, we were supposed to go to a slaughterhouse and we were 10 years old. And you didn't go? No. Couldn't handle it? No. You went home devastated? Yes.

And you yelled at your parents, crying, how can we... Yeah, and they were like, well, what are you going to eat? And I said, I don't know, I'll figure it out, because all I ate was meat. All anyone eats is meat. What did your folks do in this town? My dad is an orthopedic surgeon. Get the fuck out of here. Because all I ate was meat. All anyone eats is meat. What did your folks do in this town? My dad is an orthopedic surgeon. Get the fuck out of here.

What? My dad's an orthopedic surgeon. Really? Yes. That's crazy. How come I didn't know that? I don't, we don't, the way I talk about him. Yeah.

I don't talk about him a lot and it's usually around mental issues. But yeah, he was an orthopedic surgeon. Is he a highly emotional person? very in touch with his feelings? No. No, I'm joking. He was a very detached man that was volatile and moody and not home a lot. And left at weird hours for things that were very important, more important than his family. Oh, got a call.

There's a guy with pieces broken. Oh, yeah. That's very familiar to me. It is? Yeah. He was on call. Right. Constantly.

And like you'd be out at restaurants. Remember pagers? Yeah. Remember that shit? You'd just sit down and you're wondering like, is dad going to make it through the dinner? Yeah. And then like, beep, beep, beep, Dr. Marin, please. Yeah. And then he'd go away and he'd be like that gotta go like how is it so fucking important yeah i mean it it always felt very important to me i was like that's the most important thing

yeah he's saving lives yeah they don't do that though orthopedics i don't know when i realized that it's like i'm not saving lives there's no right so you know there's they could put the guy together and he could wait yeah but sometimes they have to do like emergency surgeries after car accidents yeah i actually saw a movie with my father that was profoundly disturbing what was it it actually um like you know how you can't eat meat after you saw that movie? Yeah. I didn't like my father anymore. Wow. No, listen. He wanted to do research on a new procedure of some kind.

So he had a screening of this. I get an instructional film on this procedure. And he asked me to go with him. Or he took me with him for some reason. How old were you? I must have been like 10, 11. I was old enough to sort of be

like the kid that my dad wanted to bring. Yeah. So I must have been functioning and have a personality and things. Yeah. So I go see this thing

and it's literally one of these things. It was a hip surgery. And there were hammers involved and saws oh yeah it's very violent i know and i was like what what is what is that it just was devastating to me and it was uh mind-blowing that that's what my dad was doing they're using power tools yeah and and equipment and hammers and saws, screwdrivers. Yeah. And that's what they're doing to people. It's helpful.

It's a skill, but it doesn't seem very nuanced. Yeah. People have an imagining, I think, of like surgery as being this sort of delicate thing with like scalpels. And I know some of it is, but there is a lot of like just fucking smashing things. Yeah. Yeah. So your dad was a doctor.

Yeah. So he was, let me just take a shot slightly grandiose self-involved he's my dad is a very shy he's not the most emotional man of all time my mother is a very big personality. So it's, he can't, you know. Can't get a word in? She's kind of the one, she's the. Let's go. Yeah.

We're doing this. Okay. Sit down. Oh, God. Melanie? He's, you know, there's a lot of kind of, she's calmed down a lot in recent years, but he's, there's a lot of kind of managing or there was when I was a child. So he's, he's always very concerned about like everybody else, what's everyone else

doing or that, you know. Yeah. It's a little codependent. Oh, I know that word. Yeah. Me too. Yeah. Was there a, was there Was there some alcohol involved anywhere?

I mean, I guess like family stuff. It's weird to talk about people who don't have a forum to talk about themselves. You don't want to throw anybody under the bus. Is that what you're saying? Yeah. As a good codependent, you want whoever you're talking about to be here and tell you you're wrong yeah for you to apologize yes pretty much tell me i'm crazy and i made it all up and they don't have any memory of that so how's that how's that a reality we did the best

we could yeah uh-huh yeah So what did your mom do? Well, my parents were very young also when they had me. My dad was still a student. Mine too. Oh, really? Are you the oldest? Yeah. Yeah, me too.

Oh, my God. How many kids are in your family? Two. Oh, there's five of us. Oh, my God. Yeah. My mom was 22 when she had me. So was my mother.

Mm-hmm. That's so weird. I think my dad was like 25. Yeah. It's exactly the same. When's your birthday? May 16th. Okay, thank God.

It doesn't get too fucking weird. When's your birthday? September. September 27th. Oh, okay. So you're the oldest of five. Your mom's a... A character.

A force. A character. She is a force, yeah. What did she do? She was a nurse when she met my dad, and then she started having babies. My mom wasn't a nurse, but there were nurses involved later. Oh, yeah. Are they still married?

They're still married. Do people stay married in New Zealand? Not always. Do you still stay married in New Zealand? I, not always. My parents have had a very intense up and down, like a very interesting relationship. It's kind of a miracle that they're still married, but they're still married. And they're still there?

They're still in New Zealand. Is he still practicing? Mm-hmm. Wow. Yeah. So how many, what's the sibling breakdown? I have three brothers and one sister. All younger? They're all younger than me,

yeah. Are any of them here? No, I wish. They all just, I just brought them all over for a visit. This is the first time they've ever all been here at the same time. All four of them? Yeah. How old's the youngest one? The youngest one is 20. She just turned 23, my little sister. Oh, so little. Yeah. Yeah. She's so little. She's so cute. And did your parents come too? No. So you had the four sibs? Yeah, just the four siblings.

And they all look up to you and you're like the... I'm kind of, I mean, because of, you know, my parents, I had a lot of responsibility, I guess. So I'm kind of like a parental figure for them. What's the age difference between you and the next one? Just two years. Oh, really? But still, you were the one, the leader of the pack? Yeah.

I mean, I got better at it. Bitter or better? Better. Okay. I got better. And yeah, and then my brother is, another brother is seven years younger than me, another one's 11 years and my sister is 14 years younger than me. And they're all good?

They're all amazing. None of them are in show business? They're great. No. My sister might be a producer. That's kind of her dream. To produce? It's her weird specific dream.

Yeah. It is a weird specific dream. Yeah, I've never really heard anyone be like, I want to be a- Well, maybe she can do it then. She's very good at it. She's produced some short films and she's amazing. Wow. So smart.

Yeah. All right. So clearly we're sort of circling the idea that your mom's a little nutty, your dad's a little quiet, and it was very exciting at home. Yes, it was very exciting. It was so exciting that you had to parent your siblings. A bit. A little bit, yeah.

A little bit. Am I making you uncomfortable? I already went to therapy today. God damn it! Why? Is that bad? I shouldn't have? What'd you get done there?

I got a lot done. Today? It was great, yeah. God damn it. How are we going to have a conversation? And I had group therapy yesterday. You go to group therapy? I'm all good.

I'm all good. Yes, I do. I don't think you are good. Oh, God. I do go to group therapy. I really love it. Really? Have you ever done that?

Yes, once. Oh, you didn't like it? I did it when I was in high school. Oh. Briefly, or junior high. That would that would be hard yeah because everyone's fucked up and no one knows what they're going to be or who they are what's going on and you feel so private at that time you don't want to yeah there's that but there's also like there there there's people that like have minor problems and there's always you know a couple of suicidal real problems. It was okay. But then I went, as my second marriage crumbled,

I, in a panic, went to an anger management type of situation where they had a group. I did an intensified three-day anger workshop thing. Wow. And there were groups in that, and it was ridiculous. I felt like I was on the first Bob Newhart show, which was like, it was just like, are are you kidding me am i one of these people am i am why am i here uh and then it became like so the anger was like very active within the group is like fuck this

yeah these people are losers i don't have to be you you know. And that was interesting. I've not done a group in a long time. I'm surprised and excited about this idea. So you're in group and how does that work? I kind of know how it works. But like you all sit and it's someone's turn and people just kind of give feedback. Yeah, you just kind of, it's not really anyone's specific turn. It's sort of up to you to bring something up

if you have something to talk about. None of us are people who are very good at taking time for ourselves or taking up a lot of space, so that's part of the work is being able to be like, I have something I want to talk about, which has been the hardest thing for me. Really? Yeah.

To stand up for yourself? Yeah, and say, i've you know i i feel like i deserve to be the one to use up some of the group time you know it's been really hard i apologize to my therapist sometimes and she's like you're paying me it's fine oh my god i'm sorry can i talk yeah i'm sorry i feel like i'm talking so much and she's like oh you're in therapy oh my god yeah it's crazy it's real crazy why do why are you like that who stopped you from talking no i mean maybe i mean yeah i don't do so much therapy i can't pretend like i don't know i think you know it's when you grow up with parents who

have a lot of other stuff going on right it's it's hard to sort of feel like you should be taking up space or you know if you have a problem you you deserve to go to them and talk about it you know they they were very busy people and they had a busy is that code for selfish no i mean my dad like worked really hard and my mom had so many children and And they're just, they're always, I was always so aware of how much they had going on. So I always felt like it was my job to just kind of be good and just not. Did you feel good, though? No, not really. See, it's weird.

And I'm sorry if I'm getting too personal. No. But you listen to this show. I do. So. I knew it. And we're getting, we're going to get back to Peter Jackson. And I'm not trying to crack a nut here. I do. So. I knew it. We're getting, we're going to get back

to Peter Jackson and I'm not trying to crack a nut here. I'm not a therapist but I'm trying to, like I understand what you're saying because I started

reading this book recently. What is it? It's called The Fantasy Bond and it's about the structure of human defenses. It's a,

dude. Oh, I'm so excited. Well, it was one of these things because I have two sides. I, you know, I'm, I'm very charismatic and a very aggressive personality,

but innately I'm incredibly codependent with, with, with people with, you know, in, in relationships. And, uh,

so much so that like, I, you know, I surrender so much of myself that once I can't take it anymore, then I lash out. So it's almost part of my cycle, where it's sort of like you just exhaust yourself trying to make things good

and taking responsibility for other people's feelings, and eventually you're just going to be like, fuck you. Yeah. I don't know if you do that. I think I do. Yeah, I mean, I'm a lot better at it now, but I did spend many, many years never getting angry. Until?

Or never talking about things that bothered me. Oh, my God. What did you do with it? Oh, my God. I just, like, got disgusted at myself. I took it out on myself. I was miserable, you know. Yeah.

And just never bringing it to the other person's attention or I would get into a relationship and just sort of present some version of myself and be in the greatest, happiest place for two months or three months and then be like, see ya. As soon as I felt like I was getting close or becoming vulnerable or at risk of getting attached or something like that, I would just be like. Got to go?

Yeah, nice to meet you. Heartbreaker, huh? Yeah, I guess so. But I mean, it was such a defensive thing that I was doing that. But you didn't realize that at the time? No. I mean, I understood that I was in a panic every time that I left somebody. I understood there was something wrong with me, but I didn't know what was going on.

But I wasn't just like, I'm going to break hearts. Right, right, right. That was wrong of me to say and was insensitive, and I apologize. It's fine. No, it wasn't fine. It was fine. It was fine. Okay, so this book. No, it wasn't fine. It was fine. It was fine. Okay, so this book.

Oh, yeah. Tell me. The concept is that when you're young, if your parents were emotionally neglectful or abusive, which are sometimes

the same thing, whatever the case, if your parents, you know, did not have the emotional capacity to take care of you properly you know and that they had their either their own agendas or their own problems yet they were presenting themselves as good parents like you know we i love all of you i love you you know i'm

worried about you whatever but the underlying emotional reality of who they were was either detached or jealous or whatever their personal trip is. You're going to absorb that as a child. Okay. So, and as a child, you need to believe your parents are good because they're your parents. And okay, so that's in place. Like they're good. So, but the emotional cues you're getting don't match that. Yeah.

So you feel awkward and kind of shitty and, of shitty and self-hating or uncomfortable or whatever those feelings are. And the only thing you can do at that young age, because your parents are good, is blame yourself. So what happens is, as you get older, the way you self-parent is by essentially maintaining those negative you know thoughts about yourself because that's where you live and that is actually honoring what your parents really might have felt about you and you get into relationships that are based on you know this fantasy and you never get out of that loop that in disables you from being intimate because if you were to actually get intimate or actually to get close to somebody

it would threaten your entire structure of self oh my god this is very you're right i can't handle it it's too much it's too much oh yeah wow yeah that's crazy how did you find that book I got this therapist and you know

he dropped this this idea like the fantasy bond thing and I'm like what was that fantasy bond he's like yeah this guy Robert

I think his name is Robert Firestone wrote this book called the fantasy bond you know back in the 80s or whatever and he kind of gave me a vague sense of it without really describing it.

And I'm like, is that book available? And he's like, I don't know. I imagine so. And it's not a popular book. It's a clinical book. It's for clinicians and it's based on research. And I went and looked it up and I found it. And they sort of print it to order kind of thing.

You know, it's not like in stock-ish. So I got the book and I started reading it. And I'm like, no fucking way. No way. Because I'm a recovery guy. I know Al and I. I know AA and shit. But there's a certain point with that stuff.

And even with therapy where you're like, well, okay, I understand I have this problem. And there's a practical way to deal with this problem. And I can do that cognitively. And i can make different choices in my life but what about this core shit i mean you know where's the explanation for it yeah and so i get this book and i'm like oh my god i found the explanation and it's crazy anyways so peter jackson i know it's a little digression at a certain point in your life i don't know where you're at crazy. Anyways. So Peter Jackson. I know. It was a little digression.

At a certain point in your life, I don't know where you're at or what your process is. I'm not even sure how old you are. Do you have

children? 37. No. No children. Not married. No. You were. I was.

No more. No more. How many times have you been married? Just once. Thank you. I was married twice.

I have no children. There's no shame. Okay. There's no shame in it. You just keep trying. Get back up on the horse. Just keep trying. Just get married again.

Sure. Okay. What else? What are you going to do? That's true. You're just going to commit to, you know, I don't want to bother anybody and sit at home for the rest of my fucking life. Yeah.

Okay. All right, Melanie. No. No, but like I'm at this point now now and i don't know if you're there where you can sort of see you know that your feelings about yourself are not they don't match your life yeah and like you know it's sort of like well just over there i can be okay with myself there's just it's just right there i can see it yes i have with myself. It's just right there. I can see it. Yes, I have recently arrived there.

It's wild, right? Yeah. How do we get there? I don't know. What do you mean? I don't know. How do you get to the point where you actually are okay with yourself? I don't know.

I get so frustrated with myself. Because of that or just in general? Because I can see it. Right. Because I can see, like, my brain, like, rationally, I can say to myself, you're not a horrible person. Yeah. You have a lot of people who care about you.

Yeah. You're good to people. Yeah. You know, you are doing the job that you have always wanted to do. Uh-huh. Everything's great. But I still feel awful so much of the time. Just awful about myself.

How does that manifest itself? Awful. I do a lot of comparing myself to other people and being like, oh, she's so thin or she's so beautiful or she's so talented. Right. You know, like, i just get crazy with it and not in a like jealous like way where i'm mad at the other people for having something but i'm just sort of like oh i should never be that right yeah chip away yourself yeah you disappear yourself yeah i disappear myself yeah yeah yeah and it's just such a habit. I know.

And you know it's a habit. Yeah. And I feel that too. I've had a little success with that one. Okay. A little bit. How, what did you do? Well, eventually, like, I think I have enough sense of self now where I'm like,

well, I don't do what that person does. And they don't do what I do. And I'm me, and I have this specific kind of thing that I do. So why am I even doing that? Yeah. I watched the VMAs the other night and I was comparing myself to Beyonce. Okay. I was watching Beyonce and I was like,

I was like, Oh, well, I can't do that. You know? And I was like, hang on a second. That's fucking Beyonce.

There's no other Beyonce. Exactly. That is not anywhere near to who I am, who I aspire to be. Who you even could be. Any part of my job description. Right. And I was sitting there just being like oh well like feeling shitty about myself and i'm like what is going on you were beating yourself up with a beyonce bat

yeah because you that that's that's the pattern it's so bizarre though all right so now we have common ground. We are self erasers in the face of almost anybody who does anything. Yep. That's a good way to put it. It sounds so tragic, but yeah, basically. Yet, you are unique unto yourself as a performer and as a actress and as a being in your field no one no one's like you well no one is like you okay same for you i know i'm about now this is no we're building your self-esteem today okay and now it starts to sort of make sense to me so you're 16 you're doing, you're acting in the school plays, you're, I imagine, finding, like, the outlet of performing to be incredibly relieving. Oh my God, yeah. And from when, I mean, I started acting when I was six years old, and I remember it so clearly. What happened?

clearly what happened i just i got cast in a play in my school and i had like a tiny little part um and there was just something about being on the stage i was so painfully shy and i found myself just filled with confidence and i had lines to say and i spoke them and i was like oh here's somebody's telling me what i can say and i just stood out there and i felt great and I was like, oh, here's somebody's telling me what I can say. And I just stood out there and I felt great. And it was the first time in my life that I felt sort of competitive because I auditioned to play Mary and I didn't get it. And I was like, why didn't I get that? And I just, there's something, I just loved it. And then I did every play that I could do.

I went to church with my grandparents so I could be in the plays at church. You didn't want to have anything to do with church, but you went. No. I was like, God, I love doing the plays, but I feel so guilty. And my mother was like, that's why you don't go to church. It was a Baptist church, so there was a lot of guilt. Baptist. Hardcore.

Oh, yeah. So in that first time, before you took the stage the the shyness and the fear and the nervousness yeah so something just left you or like how did you find me yeah i felt once you got on stage or right before or what do you remember i was there right before i was terrified and i didn't even know if i could walk out. And then once I was there, there was like an adrenaline and I just felt like a different person. And then I got addicted to that feeling. The adrenaline.

Yeah, and feeling like a different, feeling not like myself. You're a big fan of Peter Jackson. You like his horror movies. Yes. And how does he find you? They had a couple of people on a short list, like professional actresses. And he just had a feeling that there was somebody else. And so his wife drove around high schools in New Zealand and did some auditions.

And they came to my high school and all the teachers were like, oh, she's an actress. You should look at her. So I did a a little audition like a little improvised audition and that was it well i did another audition with peter they flew me to where they were filming and i did like a proper audition yeah and he showed me kate winslet's audition tape. How'd that go? So mean. I was like, this is how good you have to be, by the way. She's a professional actress. She's been working for five years in England. He said that?

Yeah. This is how good you have to be. Here, watch your tape. I mean, it's fucking Kate Winslet. She's amazing. Yeah. And I could not have been more intimidated. I can't believe he said that to you.

Mm-hmm. Can you? Yeah. You can? I can, yeah. Once I got to know him, I was like believe you said that to you. Can you? Yeah. You can. I can, yeah. Once I got to know him, I was like, oh, that seems right. It just was like, this is like the level. You two are going to be in this movie together, and that's where she is.

So just so you know. He was almost saying like, can you handle this? Yeah. And you said? I said, I'll try. Come on, you did not. I don't know what I said. I was try. Come on, you did not. I don't know what I said. I was like, okay, she's really good.

Do you remember what it was like when you first met her? Oh, my God, yeah. I went to the airport to meet her. They had you pick her up at the airport? Yeah, Peter and I, I think, picked her up. Oh, it wasn't like, Melanie, could you go get Kate? No, I couldn't drive. I didn't learn to drive until I was 24. If you want to be in this movie, you'll learn how to drive Kate Winslet.

No, I didn't have to drive Kate Winslet, but I went to the airport and she was so glamorous and beautiful. It was crazy. So, the actual, Peter Jackson's an evil genius. So some of the actual dynamic that was in the film, he wanted to happen. Oh, it was encouraged. Completely encouraged, yeah. He just ripped the fragile heart out of you.

Yeah. A little bit. I mean, but I wanted it to be ripped out of me. I wanted to really go there. It was really an amazing experience. What did you learn about yourself? Oh, my God. At that time.

Well, as an actor, I learned how to go to kind of an awful place and come back again. Because I'd had a few experiences when I was doing plays where it would connect with me emotionally and connect with something horrible that I was going through, but then I didn't know how to come back. I would just be sort of like fucked up. And he was very good at letting us go there and bringing us back again. How did he do that?

Just really took care of us afterwards and hugged us and talked to us and was like, now go, you know, make something nice for dinner or, you know, it was just very sweet and loving. And so I realized I had like a lot of control over my emotions. I was scared of a lot of emotion before that because I felt like I was repressing so much, you know, that I was scared of letting it out in case it just never stopped. Right.

But it stops. Well, yeah. Well, I mean, you seem sort of, like that seems to be your innate skill. Oh. To stop emotion. To stop emotion. Yeah, yeah.

You got that ace. Yeah. I'm great at it. emotion. Yeah, yeah. You got that aced. Yeah. I'm great at it. I'm very, very good at that. It's just, I guess the real lucky thing was that you're also able to open up that, if the role is correct, if you can have someone else's agenda, you're completely capable of tearing yourself open. Yeah.

And I can be emotional in my own life. It was harder for me to be angry. Right. Or sort of have any kind of healthy entitlement or anything. Yeah. Still? Yeah. It's still hard, but I can do it.

So after that film, because I can't even remember where I saw it, because it wasn't a huge film. No. But I know I saw it, and I know it was sort of like, what the fuck is this? Yeah, it was at like, art house movie theaters. They were nominated for an Oscar for the screenplay. Uh-huh. And I remember there was a lot of interesting effects in a way, wasn't there? Yeah, there was like a lot of early CGI stuff.

Yeah, yeah, like kind of, like trippy shit. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And then, so what happened? Did you finish high school? I finished high school. Was it a successful film in New Zealand? It was, but people in New Zealand

are not very impressed by that. You know, they kind of want to let you know that it's not that great. You know, they kind of want to let you know that it's not that great. You know. Well, it was based, I didn't realize it was based on a very notorious. Yeah.

And I imagine that kind of poked at the cultural wound somehow. Yeah, I think that it did. And I'm also like naked in the movie and stuff like that, you know. So it was like, there's some weird stuff to go back to high school. And it's not like I was like a movie star.

I was playing like a dumpy little murderer who makes out with another girl. Everyone was like, that was weird, you know. So what was the trajectory? So you did Heavenly Creatures. You finished high school. And you said, Mom, Dad, I'm going to Los Angeles. Well, I got an agent. And she kept saying oh you

should come over and I felt kind of ridiculous to try to do anything you know so so she had to convince you yeah she had to convince me like I started making audition tapes from New Zealand and sending them. I made a tape for The Crucible. Mm-hmm. And then they— That was Winona Ryder? The Winona Ryder one, but a different part.

And then I flew over to audition with Daniel Day-Lewis, and I guess that was when I sort of thought, oh, if they feel like I'm okay to be in a room with Daniel Day-Lewis, you know? How was that for you? Oh, crazy. So great. Yeah? He was really nice. And just, you know, it's fucking Daniel Day-Lewis.

It was incredible. Yeah. Yeah. He's something, huh? Yeah, he's amazing. And so you didn't get that part, but it did instill you with a certain confidence. Yeah, I just felt a little better, and I did some more auditions. It took a while.

I love that I can't tell the difference between you saying better and bitter. Nobody can. It's a real problem. But I love that about New Zealand. It's like, why distinguish? I'm bitter. You're bitter? No, I'm better than I was.

Okay. But it's sort of interesting that you did all these movies and you're recognizable. So how do you feel about the sort of pace of your career? Because in my mind, and this is just me not being rude, to me you should be like Julianne Moore. Oh my God. That's a nice thing to say. Yeah. It's sort of like, let's get her in the lead, please.

Let's get her up front. Oh, my agent's going to love this. I feel comfortable. I don't know. I just feel really grateful that I work. Okay. Yeah. I don't know. i should be more ambitious no it's not a matter of ambition my question is do you feel like this this thing that you do this sort of like oh i'm sorry i'm alive you think that that that thing has been detrimental to you. Yes.

Yes. Oh, my God. Very much. We've got to fucking fix this thing. I'm trying. That's why I'm doing so much therapy. I really am trying because I'm sick of it at this point. You know, I'm 37 years old, and I've been apologizing for myself my whole life.

Like, I used to, honestly, the first meetings that I took here after Heavenly Creatures, people would be like, oh, that was a great movie. And I would say, oh, so long ago. You know, or like, oh, yeah, I haven't done anything since then. I would tell them something terrible and they would be like, oh, okay. You know, that doesn't work in america well this whole town is driven by bullshit oh i know all you got to do is like i know wasn't i amazing and they're like wow she's really something it's true it's true you need to have

i know i was never good at it either but i was the angry version i was like you know that's more interesting at least. Nobody wants a sad sack around. It's not that interesting, because they don't know what to do with that either. But if I was in the male version of Heavenly Creatures, and someone said, that was great, I'm like, it wasn't that good. I mean, Peter Jackson was kind of a dick, to be honest with you. I'd be throwing people under the bus left and right.

Really? I don't know if we should work with that guy. It doesn't seem like anyone's safe with that guy's mouth so that's so funny it was the opposite end that's what i did with my insecurity i didn't go inward i'm like well fuck all you people you clearly don't get it you know it's the opposite spectrum of the same problem which is the overly confident overcompcompensating, angry guy. You just put that all in. It's like beating the shit out of yourself right in front of people.

Oh, look at her defeat herself in one conversation. I know. I can make myself seem very unappealing very quickly. Don't do it to me because I've got you up on a pedestal, lady. No. So, all right, don't fuck it up. Have I not done it already? No. I feel like I've, oh, okay.

No, this is, it's only making me like you more. Now, you've done a bit of television. Mm-hmm. You like to work. I do like to work, yeah, very much. Do you, but you want to do more movies, right? Well, I just did a TV show that I really love a lot, which hasn't come out yet. Which one?

It's called Togetherness. It's a new show for HBO that the Duplass brothers made. How'd that go? It was so great. What was the character that you played? How is it different than you? Well, it's different than me because we're married on the show, and she's quite impatient, I guess. She's just kind of, she's fed up with a lot of things.

She talks about it. She's more confident than me. It was nice. It was nice to do that. So what do you do when you get a role, when you read a script, when you have an opportunity like that, and you get a sense of the character? Because I saw Happy Christmas, and that's a lot of you. It's the most of you I've seen since Heavenly Creatures. Really. It's a big part. Yeah. And it is pretty great. I talked to Anna about it. Oh, you did? Yeah, she had a lot

of nice things to say about you. Oh, I love? Yeah, she had nice things to say about you. Oh, I love her. But what do you do? Like when you see someone who's confident or aggressive or impatient, are you like, thank God, this is going to be great. I do like it. I mean, it's very comfortable for me to play. I mean, like in Happy Christmas, I'm not super confident. And I have my own accent and it was all improvised and i was just kind of you know no but you're grounded and maternal yes and protective yes and and you're somebody who has

gone through uh you know some personal struggle and compromise in order to to sort of maintain the security and stability of your home and life a lot of times i do um dream work you know like have you heard about that no it's a thing i have a teacher um basically you sort of ask yourself for a dream you kind of go into your unconscious and different things come up you work through the script like yourself for a dream. You kind of go into your unconscious and different things come up. You work through the script like it's a dream and just different things that come up for you. It's just a way of kind of going to kind of a weirder place. I don't know what the process is, but you're not sleeping.

Well, you write a letter to yourself about your role in the script and what you want to do. And then you have a dream. A real dream? Yeah, a real dream. And then things come up from your unconscious. Really? Yeah, weird things come up.

So the process is that, okay, you get a character and you write a letter to yourself about the character. What is the phrasing of that? How is that? What do you mean? It's sort of different every time. Well me an example it sounds so cheesy but you say dear inner self you just sort of ask for permission to have things revealed to you is how i put it a lot about the character or about the movie or if it's something you're going through in your life about that situation. So this isn't an acting teacher.

She's kind of an acting teacher in that she has a good sort of, well, she is an acting teacher, yeah. She sort of understands a lot about truth and when things seem honest and what things are interesting. And, you know, you can talk through the dream and she can be like, oh, I wonder if that would be an interesting thing to put in here. And this is a one-on-one thing you do with this person? One time I didn't have a dream at all. I asked myself five nights in a row and I didn't have a dream. And then I realized, oh, I'm kind of living this.

No, I didn't. I just sort of, I was like, why can't i have a dream about this and then i was like oh this movie is like my reality at this point in time which movie was that it's a movie uh the title changed oh it got called the big ask yeah and it was just about, well, it was a weird thing because David Krumholz plays a character who asks his friends, girlfriends to have like an orgy with him essentially. But I guess my situation, I was in a relationship at the time where I was very confused. I didn't understand what someone wanted i was trying to sort of make sense of what they were asking from me and i just felt kind of lost and abandoned and like is this going to end what's going to happen are we breaking up right now is he okay right now am i okay and so all that stuff

was just like what i was playing in the movie so that was interesting so your dream was like you're living it. Yeah, my unconscious was like, I think you're okay. Yeah, I think you got this. Just think about it for two seconds and stop asking me for a fucking dream. Right. Yeah. So when this work is successful, when you are delivered information, in what form does

it come in? Sometimes there's an image. What form does it come in? Sometimes there's an image. Like I did this movie called Goodbye to All That. And I have a scene in the movie where I'm breaking up with my husband. I take him to couples therapy and we break up. And in the dream I was watching a concert that I wasn't ready for. I was very terrified of the concert happening.

And I said to myself okay the way I'm going to be able to watch this concert is if I uncross my legs and put both my feet flat on the ground and just look straight ahead and I felt sort of like surge of bravery in the dream and so then when we were filming that scene I did that same movement and it just because I have like an emotional connection to it even though it's just from a dream the same sort of feeling comes up when you do the movement and you know what you're connecting it with is this making sense sure yeah so you can sort of make a little thing quite powerful you can bring it back to a place of something that's actually happened or even if it hasn't happened it's taken from your own subconscious yeah whatever that is quite powerful, you can bring it back to a place of something that's actually happened.

Or even if it hasn't happened, it's taken from your own subconscious. Yeah. Whatever that is in the dream means, you know. Who knows? Yeah. But it was deep enough to be revealed to you in a dream. Yeah. So if you just honor that, the movement or the action, you don't even know necessarily why it's connected.

Yeah. But it just feels right yeah it feels like it comes from your guts that seems like a hell of a process and sometimes those that so you're telling me that sometimes those actions or suggestions or images in the dream can actually be the foundation of the character or part of the building of the character. Yeah, or sometimes a person will be in the dream and I'll realize like, oh, there's a lot of that person in this character.

And so I'll start to think about the character. I had one dream about my little brother when I was doing a movie and I was like, oh my God, this is so, there's so much of him. That seems like, that's an interesting way to work. Yeah.

Nothing easy about it. No, it's not easy, but it's interesting, yeah. And what other stuff do you usually do? With the line work and stuff, do you really, do you work from like motivations and, you know, how do you kind of assess? No. You just go by instinct it's just instinct yeah i'm not i'm not great with that stuff and i actually really have trouble when i work with a director who talks like that because i don't have that framework or that language people get

annoyed with me sometimes what what is your need or what is your motivation what do you what do you want yeah yeah it gets a little confusing. So can't we just get in it? It's in the lines. Yeah, and I can be kind of bitchy sometimes at work. No, it's good. No, I'm so invested in it, and I don't want to sit there and have a conversation about,

like, well, what's your motivation? And it's, well, did you read the script? You should know. Why do I need to tell you what i'm doing in the scene you know uh-huh watch it and if it looks weird tell me what else you want to see and you were with um you worked with anna on up in the air too or no well we didn't have any scenes together you were cooney's sister right yeah? Yeah. I remember. Now, working with him, how was that? That was great.

He's so... Has he done your show? No. No, I don't know how... Those guys are... That's a rare error there. Yeah. I don't know how to get to that guy.

I don't either. I don't know. There's that whole... That upper echelon of male actors. I have no idea what the Damons and the Clooneys... I feel like those people would love to be on your show. I don't. Okay.

Give them a call. Get back to me. Okay. I don't have anyone's phone number. God. I think I'm going around like a person who's going to get famous people's phone numbers. No. I imagine you probably walk up to them and go, we work together.

Do you remember me at all? That's exactly what I do. It is? Yeah. I saw Matt Damon a few weeks ago. You played his wife. I know. He was like, yeah, Melanie, hi.

I don't know. I don't want to make him uncomfortable and be like, hey, pal. You know, he was like, yeah, nice to see you. Hey, Matt. Oh, you don't want to make him uncomfortable. So you choose like, do you remember me? That's, that's, you don't want to make them uncomfortable. So you choose, like, do you remember me? That doesn't make anyone uncomfortable. As opposed to, like, hey, Matt, what's going on?

And they're like, hi, I don't know if we were in the thing. I didn't say, do you remember me? But I was like, oh, it's Melanie. You know, just in case. You did not do that. Oh, God. What? I did do that.

I do do that. I do do that. I feel like it's nice to do that to people. People who, like, meet a lot of people who probably expect them to remember them. You were on set with him. Yes. For weeks? Yeah. Okay.

I'm just checking the facts. It's good. This is going to be a real tuning point. No, it's not. Is it? Yeah, because I'll probably listen to this podcast and be like, oh my God, get your shit together.

Why am I tough? I don't know why. I'm not a tough love guy, but for some reason you're bringing it out of me. I like it. I appreciate it. It is surprising me

a little bit, though. Why? Am I letting you down? No. Why? See, now you're insecure. Why is it surprising you? Because I don't know.

You're getting so tough on me. I'm sorry i i don't know you're so getting so tough on me i'm sorry you don't usually do that you're right i don't i'm just i think what it is is that i'm you know struggling with some of the same things and i don't like i'm always amazed now like if i see jonah hill or i run into or I see Seth Rogen, I never think to go like, what's up, man? But like now, for some reason, they're like, hey, Mark. And I'm like, no way. So, you know what I'm talking about? Exactly.

Yeah. That makes me feel better. I completely relate. I'm like, you know, I'm not going to I'm, I'm not going to be that guy. The guy who assumes like a relationship or, you know, but I never. Yeah. I mean, I've only had Seth in here with his buddy. I don't know him.

But it was nice that he remembered me. Of course he would remember you. I mean, also you're a famous person. No, I'm not as famous as you, number one. And number two, I talked to him for an hour. I didn't spend six weeks on a film with him. Right, but this is a very intimate experience. He probably remembers you better than some people

you did spend six weeks on a film with. I guess that's right. Maybe I don't understand that. Yeah. But you worked with Soderbergh on that. That was the informant. Yeah. How was he as a director? Oh, my God. Like a dream. Yeah? Greatest. that yeah but that was uh you work with soderbergh on that that was the informant yeah was that how

was he as a director oh my god like a dream yeah greatest my favorite i don't like compliments i'm surprised it's not my favorite thing so and he doesn't do that at all so it was really it was nice he gave me a compliment like when we finished filming, which was perfect. But he's just sort of sensible. He'll do it again if he didn't feel like he got it. He'll just give you notes that make a lot of sense. He lets you kind of run through it. It's really, it's loose, but it's controlled. It's perfect.

Let's land on Swanberg and then we're going to talk about eating. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay? Okay. Because you feel bad about that cookie? Sorry. I don't feel bad about it. Oh, good.

Okay. You're going to help me with my own eating disorder. That's what you're going to do. Do you have an eating disorder? Kind of. Seriously? I have body dysmorphia, and I don't ever feel... I love to eat, but I always feel guilty about eating.

That's so interesting. I always think I'm fat. Always. My mother was kind of crazy with that stuff. It's conditional. Yeah. You know what I'm talking about? I do know what you're talking about.

How do you know what I'm talking about? I feel like my mother would be okay with me saying that. I feel bad because my parents have really worked hard on themselves over the years. And I feel like that's all you can ask for. Right. And they're very loving people. Mm-hmm. And there have been a lot of apologies and amends made and stuff like that.

Honest ones. Very honest. That's great. Very, very, very honest ones. Mm-hmm. And I feel so grateful. And they're just, you know, they're working on their relationship still, which is so amazing to me. So they're open-minded people that are willing to admit fault.

Yeah. But yeah, my mother had a lot of eating issues when I was growing up. And it's a tough thing to be around. I mean, friends of mine who have kids are so sensitive about talking about food, talking about feeling guilty about food, talking about their own bodies, anything like that. And it always makes me think like, oh god to you should have that amount of care about it and it's really an intense thing to see someone not like their own body and then also have a lot of weirdness around what you're eating when you're eating it yeah so you really had it you really had that thing yeah it's a bad thing

it's so hard to get rid of it and i think that's why now i'm like um i'm gonna eat a fucking cookie like once i stopped being so obsessive about my thinking about eating and my eating i just the freedom from that was overwhelming. Yeah, it feels really nice to not think about food all the time. But I weigh a lot more than I used to because I don't think about food all the time. And you're okay? I used to be very skinny. But you would never know because I still hated my body

and I walked around in big, you know. Right. I definitely understand. What's the point? I understand it. It's one thing, like people can say like self-hatred this or that, but the way you framed it, which I think is that it's just horrible to have somebody not like

their body the vessel the container yeah the the physical being of who they are is just never right yeah and you can never escape it you're with yourself all the time and also you have to eat yeah that's the other thing yeah and eating is social and there's just the it's the most inescapable thing to have an issue with how did you fix it honestly i well i was bulimic for 10 years and I was never like a bingey bulimic because I was too ashamed to ever like binge eat. I'd never, but I had such a strict diet and then if I ate anything over it, then I would get rid of it. Right. And I just was obsessive about my eating. just was obsessive about my eating and i got in a relationship when i was 21 and i really opened up to this person and he said to me that's so violent what a violent thing to do to yourself

and i never really had thought about it like i remember when i was 12 years old and i read about it i was like oh great idea that's i was that's all yeah and my body was changing and i was freaking out because suddenly i had hips and breasts and stuff like that and i was like oh god help me like it's just gonna get worse like there's more fat bits that i have to worry about fuck yeah and so i was you know trying to control it um and this boyfriend that i had was just like god that's so and and then he started crying and he was like that breaks my heart that you would do that to yourself it breaks my heart that you can't like eat like experience something delicious like we'd go out to dinner and i would have a salad with no dressing like that's all I would ever eat and he started kind of it sounds weird and controlling but he started like monitoring kind of like he would make me eat something and not let me watch what he was

putting in it he would cook something and be like stay out of the kitchen then i would eat it and then i wasn't allowed to go to the bathroom so i started eating pasta and things that had oil on it and it was i freaked out for a few months and then i was like oh i'm not like getting really fat. Food is delicious and I feel fucking happy. And this is nice. And I like relapsed for a while for a few years. And then I guess when I was around 25, I just was like done. I just started. I still had a lot of feelings about my body, but it just sort of got better and better.

And now I exercise so much because that's a really good way of just keeping my mind straight and feeling like I'm in my body without like obsessing about my body. Right. And I just, I don't know. I also think it's kind of lovely. I don't know. Sometimes I look at myself and I'm like, oh, that's kind of sexy. Yeah.

It's all round and bouncy. It's like, what's wrong with that? I don't know why I was denying that for so long. I was so excited to be able to see all my ribs, really. Not everyone's supposed to look like that. Those women are beautiful know it's beautiful when everyone looks different so you're aware of it still but you have oh and i have like some you know i have moments where i'm just like oh god oh my god i'm so crazy i should be skinny i should be starving myself what am i thinking yeah like i watched the emmys the other night and I was like, it was like it suddenly occurred to me like everyone's so fucking skinny. Like women are not eating. Yeah.

They are just not eating. And what are you doing sitting here with your like Thai food or whatever I was currently eating? I was like, you are insane. What are you thinking? It's like a voice like from, you know, some other part of myself will come up and like slap me in the face and be like, don't you remember what you're supposed to be doing? And then I'm just like, shut the fuck up. Like, I got so tired of listening to you. Do you know whose voice it was?

It's my own voice, I think. Yeah. I mean, you know, I'm sure it's my mother. I'm sure it's, you know, a lot of different things. It was some of the stuff that was unsaid by your mother, probably. This idea of what you had to do for her. Some things were said, you know. She was intense about it.

She really cared about it a lot. I was in fat kid aerobics. No. With fat kids. But were you ever fat? No. Right, but your mom thought. I was never fat kid aerobics. No. With fat kids. But were you ever fat? No. Right, but your mom thought. I was never skinny, though.

I've never been, you know, I've always been like. But was your mom like panicked about it? Yeah. Right, I get it. And I, in my brain, I was like, oh, I'm a fat kid. I just can't really see it properly. And then I started looking at myself and I was like, oh, there it is. There it is.

Finally. Yeah. I can see me for my true fat self. Oh, I see it. My mom is right. Yeah. And I remember reading that book, Blubber, this Judy Blume book. And the character was describing what it felt like to be in the shower and what they're

buying. Like, oh, sometimes I wish I could see my feet when I was in the shower. And I remember being in the shower and being like, I can totally see my feet. Yeah. But I'm fat. I know that I'm very fat. But that's so weird that I can see. And I was like, nothing's sticking out.

But I just couldn't. I just had no sense of what my body looked like for a really long time i still i still don't like if i get over a certain weight this weird 10 pound area that i'm comfortable in i literally just want to disappear like and if i'm aware of it and i'm talking to somebody like a woman or something, I'm like, it just takes away all my confidence. It takes away any sense of identity I have. It's really powerful.

Yeah. I used to have that number as well in my head. I had the absolute, this is it. This is as big as you can ever get. Yeah. This is it. Yeah. as big as you can ever get. Yeah. This is it. Yeah. I'm way past that now. Sorry.

That's like 15 pounds ago. Yeah. Well, congratulations on liberating yourself from that dialogue. It's nice. Yeah. I mean, not 100%, but, you know. Yeah, but it literally gets that point. It's what we were talking about before, where you can that the the self that you have that can exist in the world

yeah and should be how you're existing but that voice they in that book i'm reading they talk about that voice yeah because it's everyone who's like us has a similar version of that yeah and that voice has a similar focus and and that is it that is your best ability at when that voice has a similar focus. And that is your best ability. When that voice started happening, that's how you self-parented. That was... God, that's so interesting. I mean, that's a really amazing piece to kind of click in. That's amazing. amazing piece yeah kind of click in it's like amazing you know like your parents are good and

they they have and you you don't you you can't be responsible for their own issues but when you're very young it's like i feel fucking fat but my mom loves me but then like why am i so uncomfortable and then that thing it's like you're fat and you're like i am and that is your attempt at actually self-parenting, is maintaining that voice. Yeah. Yeah, I have a lot of those voices telling me all kinds of things. Right. Yeah.

It's a weird thing inside you that really does try to cling on to that negativity. And I've felt that before. Like, I've felt that in therapy, like having kind of breakthroughs. It's been like, well, who are you though? Who are you if you let go of that? Right. It's also like I find that that seems like some of the focus around it is the ability to not, you know, that awkwardness of like needing the comfort or needing the love that wasn't there. And like that, that discomfort of like just sitting with that self that you feel is

ill-defined it's like i have to eat something i've got to you know do this like what's on tv i gotta you know that the grabby feeling yeah i've i mean this is very personal but personal but after i got divorced yeah i did a lot of um not distracting myself from feelings like i just get in the bath with nothing in there like not a book or my phone or anything like that and just be like all right you're just gonna go through this right now. What come out of you? Oh, God, it was like torture. It was awful. Yeah? It was like the end of what I thought my life was going to be.

Uh-huh. But it's such a crazy thing to sit with it. I was so afraid of sitting with it, i didn't for a while like i was like cleaning cleaning like seeing people letting everyone know that everything's okay and then just finally when i was like what if i just sat with it and and it and i was ready for the possibility that it could like kill me you know like it felt so overwhelming and then i was like just see if it does and it it doesn't like all pass because there's too much there but something passes through you when you just let it happen and it's amazing well i think that a lot of

that has to also not just as a person but you, you know, inform you as an artist as well, that, you know, because you're coming, that means that, you know, if you're able to go through that and that very sort of almost primal fear of that for somebody like you to survive that, to survive those baths, you know, must, you know, give you like, if not a tangible confidence, but a way of engaging in life where you're like, I can handle this. Yeah. I think that now I am far enough past it that I do feel strong again. You know, you know, that weird thing where you're sort of like grasping around you just

don't know like well look you're lucky that you're not you know like you know you you don't know what can happen during those times there's a million things you can do to avoid that shit and and some of them are you know dangerous yeah and you you know you avoided that yeah that's true i feel grateful yeah and and i think that in hearing you talk about that and in thinking about Happy Christmas as a piece of work, you know, that like I have to imagine some of that groundedness that you got from moving through that stuff must have informed that character a bit. Oh, that's nice. Yeah.

And the fact that the way Swanberg works is that it is all improvised. I mean, was that daunting to you? It was a little bit. I mean, I had done some improvised stuff like as a teenager. I was excited about it. And I think the thing that really helped, and maybe Anna said this to you, is like Joe is honestly so okay with whatever happens. There's not a lot of pressure. Like I feel like it would be different if he was like, you really need to make something great happen here and go.

He's just like, well, it's an experiment. We'll see what happens. But I think you were all aware that you were shooting on film. Yeah, so you got one take. Right, so he didn't have to really say anything. Right. But there were some times where we would do a take and I would be like, are we seriously moving on?

He's going to piece that together somehow? You're directing in your head. Yeah. The camera's just moving between us and it felt so loose. I thought it was, it gave me it's real independent filmmaking yeah and you know his choice to use film you know because the tone of that you can't get that tone with any i really love yeah it was it was spectacular and to know that because i i just happened to be at a screening where he did a skype q a uh at the roxy in san francisco and and i i

didn't even see that the showing that he was speaking at, but we came in early because I wanted to see him and how aware he is of how special what he is doing is in capturing the type of emotions and letting the thing sort of live and breathe on its own volition with actors who are capable of doing it. And then to shoot on film, I just thought it was like, well, this is real. This is like old school, ballsy filmmaking.

Yeah. Because it does, it means something to know as an actor that we don't, we can't just do the, it's just video thing. Yeah, it was exciting. Right. I mean, I do so many independent movies and they're all digital now. It had been so long since I'd had that feeling. Well, I think it's a sweet little movie. I thank you.

It was so great to see you sort of stretch out. Thank you. I'm a big fan. Thanks. I'm a big fan of yours. Do you feel okay about everything? I don't. I mean, I'm going to get in my car and be like, oh, God, why?

What can I do to help that? You can't. What are you working on now? Exactly. Oh, gosh. You still do Two and a Half Men? I haven't for a long time. Do you like doing that?

I do. I have a lot of fun doing it. It's good to do jokes, right? It's good to do jokes. Have you done that before? No. Like a sitcom? Not really.

I've just done my own show, but it's not really like that. No, it's different. Yeah. It's not like the audience. No, yeah, it's not like, wah-pah-pah-pah, bah-pah-pah-pah. Yeah, no. There's something about it that feels so old school. Oh, yeah.

And it's so fun. And the audience knows the character it's weird to be a character that people get excited to see that's fine on like an american sitcom do you like it i do i really like it i have a good time but i have a couple of things coming out which ones the movie that i was talking about that's called Goodbye to All That, which is with Paul Schneider, who is great. And a movie that my friend Simon Helberg wrote and directed and starred in, which is based on the true story of when his relationship fell apart. What's that called? It's called We'll Never Have Paris.

Well, I'm looking forward to them. Thank you. Thank you for talking to me. I think we did it I hope so that's it wasn't she amazing I think she's amazing

go watch her act she's amazing look go to wtfpod.com for all your wtfpod needs you want some justcoffee.coop

if you get the the wtf blend I go a little on the back end. It's a nice dark roast. Nice dark roast for a dark-minded dude, me. Yeah, go leave a comment.

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