WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 566 - Richard Linklater

Episode Date: January 7, 2015

Director Richard Linklater takes Marc through the unprecedented 12 year process of making his latest film, Boyhood, and goes into detail about Dazed and Confused, Matthew McConaughey, School of Rock, Waking Life, the Austin Film Society and much more. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com. Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die.

We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series streaming February 27th exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply.

Lock the gates! All right, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fucking nears? What the fuck sticks? What the fuckadelics? What the fuckleberry fins?

What the fuck puddles? I don't even know what that means. I don't know what that means. Never said it. What the fuck puddles? I don't know if that really describes a person. It was just something that came out. Welcome to the show.

I am Mark Maron. This is my show. This is WTF. Today, the guest, my guest on today's show is Richard Linklater, the director of Boyhood and many other movies. Many other movies. Slacker. Come on. Dazed and Confused.

School of Rock. Waking Life, the Before Midnight, After Sunrise, Sunrise, Midnight, Sunrise, Today, The Next Day, forget the name of that series, those movies. He did Fast Food Nation. He'd done a lot of movies, this guy. So I'm going to talk to him in a minute. For those of you who are just joining me this week of amazing modern directors and don't really know me, I've quit my last addiction for the most part.

I've gotten off of nicotine lozenges. I haven't smoked in a long time, but now I'm without nicotine and we're going on. We're over five weeks now, and the rawness is making me crazy. Do not like being this open. Do not like not having a damper, a filter, a way to keep level. That's the one thing about self-medicating. Keeps you nice and level. So where's it going to pop up next?

I'm drinking tea, not drinking coffee. So that's it. So I got tea and I'm trying to keep, I'm trying to manage the masturbation don't want to get into that go down that addictive rabbit hole because that's not that's a very sad one they're all kind of sad but some are more socially acceptable than others you can certainly kind of suck on nicotine lozenges and drink a lot of caffeine uh but you know you can't just break down and jerk off at work well you can but it's not good there's not a lot of not a lot of pride in that relationship is going pretty well but i think what's happening is is i just don't know how i

have no way to calibrate my emotions and when things in the world which i don't address that much on the show in terms of what my feelings are because i don't want to come off as uh as righteous for selfish reasons i think a lot of righteousness is self-serving and i find it despicable you know a lot of stuff weighs very heavy on me it's hard for me to process the fact that one of my heroes is some sort of sociopathic evil monster it's hard for me to process the horrendous torrents of racism in this country. It's hard for me to process the fact that religious fanatics go into an office and blow away a bunch of artists and cartoonists.

It's all fucking horrible. And on top of that, raccoons are digging up my yard. And that's the one that's closest to me. All this other stuff filters in. And then I have irrational reactions to things like dropping a cup or raccoons digging up my yard. Because all this stuff is bottled up in me. All these feelings of hopelessness and of anger about the way the world works. Yeah, I could spend my life talking about it.

But to me, it's all evil. And all I can do, well, the raccoons aren't evil. They're just being raccoons. Human-based behavior is evil. Animals, not so much. They're annoying. They're destructive.

But generally, there's not a moral, we can't attach some moral imperative to fucking raccoons tearing up my yard. Raccoons do not say, fuck this guy, let's pull up his sod. and i'm not even that hung up on the grass i just don't know what to do about it really and it makes everything stink and it just amplifies the hopelessness of everything and things are going well for me right now but i'm telling you man i'm telling you shit can get kind of dark and now that i don't have nicotine to manage the fucking fluctuations of my feelings or at least to keep them you know tamped down i i i'm worried

that i'm gonna unload on somebody i'm worried that i'm gonna unload on myself i'm worried that you know i'm just gonna say some fucking shit that's gonna cause trouble and a lot of people like that see a lot of people i don't even know how concerned they are about things necessarily they're more concerned about where do you stand where are you on this we got let's judge you about where you stand on something i usually stand for decency and rational behavior. I'm generally against evil. I'm having a problem with raccoons right now. I'm also having a problem with my fucking confidence.

It's horrendous. You think after a certain point, you get everything up and going. Things are going well. people enjoy what you do like when do you just sort of like hey man i'm great when does that happen it's like it's like the fucking opposite is happening and that's always why i go back to nicotine or go back to whatever go back to setting my brain on fire somehow so at least my brain is on fire and i don't have to deal with what's in my heart if your brain is on fire your heart just sits there sadly and watches your brain burn fine so i'm a little emotionally all over the place and i'm just trying to keep that out of the realm

of sad that's that's the big agenda of sad and like what's the point nothing is true things are out of control my heroes are liars and people are killing people for cartoons for cartoons. Fuck. When I get into this place of being emotional, all I can do is say, well, what the hell happened?

What happened? And that's the amazing thing about Linklater. You know, I had Paul Thomas Anderson on here, and his movies demand understanding from you. And you can create

whatever understanding you want. They're very provocative in that way. They're minimal enough. They leave a lot of room in them for you to sort of either project your own ideas onto them or let them live within you until they make sense to you. But Linklater seems to be, certainly in movies like Slacker or Dazed and confused and and and the midnight and sunrise movies and now this film boyhood seems to be really sort of hung up and concerned with how people move through time what what how does time affect us that's the amazing thing about boyhood i mean i saw this film it's basically about a family and about uh you know their struggles emotionally that there's there are some harrowing emotional elements of it, but it's not a tragic tale.

But the fact that he used the same actors over a 12-year arc, returning back to shoot scenes as they got older, it leaves you with a very interesting feeling. And I still cannot put my finger on what that feeling is. Knowing that these are the actors that were there 12 years ago and moved through their lives for that 12 years, watching them grow up, all of the characters get older, 12 years older over the course of this two hour film is something I've never seen before or felt before. And it's very, it's, it's very strange. And I can't really identify how it made me feel

knowing that i mean yeah i mean some of you and i've seen documentaries where they check back with people but this is a straight narrative through a 12-year arc using the same people it's never happened before and i think it made me i i think it there's some wish fulfillment there's some part of me and maybe some part of you. I'd love to see my last 12 years in a nice tight two-hour bit of business, a well-edited two-hour movie. I would love to see

what the hell happened over the last 20 years of my life, well-edited, starring me, and maybe I could sort of figure out how I got here. I think there's a craving it creates a craving for that because i'm constantly going back in my mind it's not even nostalgia it's just as you get older you lose touch with who you were or maybe if you're on facebook you ever go on facebook and see the people that you haven't seen in 15 years and wonder like holy

fuck i knew that person as a kid i knew myself as a kid but i don't know that kid anymore i've got some of that kid's stuff here but i don't know you know what was important to him and it just keeps getting further and further away and starts all that stuff that once defines you starts to just sort of just peel away and i think there's something fascinating about the way Linklater makes movies like that, especially this last movie. It does. It really says a lot about the reality that life is finite and not that long. And, you know, what we define the sort of monumental elements of our life, the life changing things are just days. They're just days. Things go wrong. Things wrong things go good you bounce back you don't bounce back you plow on and then it's fucking over god i don't want to be morose because it's i'm not talking about that movie that movie is a very life-affirming film but it's fascinating you know to see it play out that way.

I don't think it's ever been done before. I'm looking forward to talking to him. I'm okay, people. It's just like I don't want you to think that the things that happen in the world don't have an effect on me and don't fuck me up and break my heart. I just tend to sort of keep it local. Fucking raccoons are ripping up my yard. God damn it. Before we talk to Richard Linklater,

I want to mention that Boyhood is now available on Blu-ray, DVD, and digital download. If you haven't seen it, I would do that. All right, so let's talk to Richard Linklater. This is a very different conversation with a very different director than Monday. And I hope you enjoy it. And I'll talk to you on the other side. We can wait for clean water solutions or we can engineer access to clean water.

We can acknowledge indigenous cultures or we can learn from indigenous voices. We can demand more from the earth or we can demand more from the earth. Or we can demand more from ourselves. At York University, we work together to create positive change for a better tomorrow. Join us at yorku.ca slash write the future. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of kids night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction.

Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com. Bye. Yeah, you don't have time to do everything. Right. You know, give it a few years. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let 12 of your best friends that you trust their taste. When they say, hey, you, when they give you that look.

Yeah. You haven't seen that yet. You have to, and like, okay, finally, I give up. I will read that book,

see that TV show, watch that. You say give it a decade, maybe. Yeah, maybe a decade. Maybe a decade. I believe you,

man. Like, there is so much shit, especially with music because I got into vinyl recently. I had no idea it even existed.

It's the same with movies and TV, too. Well, TV is specific, but I mean, you get locked into what you grew up with, what's coming into your head, and that's it, man. You start there, and your filter only goes out so far. Yeah, a freak has to come wake you up. What could clean the slate and start you from another entry point into the culture and in your world. Right. And you would be, you know, you run into people who've like never.

You need that guy. You need that. But even that, you're getting their entry point. But it might be a completely different world. Yeah. It's like they're a portal. To a new entry point that gets you. portal to a new entry point that hits you but you realize just how little time there is in this life and how much we go through just oblivious and blind because we're trying to feed feed something

yeah well i mean it's obviously it seems like uh your movies are reckoning with that you know like because i was thinking about it like even when i think about about slacker you know and when that came out, I was sort of like, what is this? This is the thing. But there was a lot of that shit. Like Austin, to me, struck me at that time. I mean, how old were you, 20?

No, I mean, when I did Slacker, I started that. I was later, 28. All right. But it seemed to me it seemed to be just a city full of those portals of people doing that weird shit. And because the one thing that stands out my mind is the dude that says that tv sets been on since 19 whenever that he'd been keeping that set going because you know those guys exist i know and i know that was really

my represented my 20s right i had you know like post-college post-work i was hanging out and suddenly i found myself in a town with just an incredible group of people and energy, and it wasn't about money or getting ahead. It was just about living the life you were supposed to. That's what I saw. I'm sure it was there. Artist life, though, kind of. Yeah, and people who were kind of,

what's the German word? Liebenkünstler. It's an artist of life. Right, right. It's like their art is the way they go through the world they don't want to they don't necessarily right it's like creating a product you can buy or sell but it's their life is art and i i met so many people i would put in that category well that we felt that yeah and like i grew up in albuquerque so like there was

there was there was definitely i'm starting to notice it around here though like it was weird i made this note in the car today where i'm like your early movies were this may not ring true it might ring true it was how people move through time and now the later movies is how time moves through people that's pretty good that's pretty good i like that right yeah but uh but like did you find at that time you didn't grow up in Austin, though? No. No one grows up there. It's the kind of place you move to. Well, where'd you grow up? Kind of in the Houston area, but I lived in a small town in East Texas called Huntsville, which is where they do the executions of mentally retarded people and grandmothers.

Yeah, it's where the big prison is. My dad lived in Houston. My mom was teaching at a school in Huntsville. So I kind of had both big city, Houston. So they weren't together for your whole life? They divorced when I was really young, about six or seven. Yeah. So your mom was doing what?

Academic. She was getting her degree and master's degree. So I grew up with her kind of a student. And then she kind of came into her own as a teacher and we moved around based on her teaching jobs and a lot like the movie boyhood i i was just gonna say that kind of an intelligent passionate woman who kind of took her kids through you know her her life you know she didn't have a choice that was very striking in the movie actually that you know when you really realize, and I've only

been realizing it lately. I didn't grow up with it. I grew up with a different type of emotional chaos, that these are young people, the parents, and they're going to be fragile and vulnerable and subject to their own emotional insanity. They don't have the answers. Right. When did you... It's a hard thing to realize,

isn't it? As a kid, it takes a while to realize. And sometimes I'm still realizing it. I think once you become a parent, it drags you through not only your own childhood again, but your own parents' relation changes. I like these generational conversations that it takes 20 plus years to get an answer or to realize something from your own childhood or what your parents might have been going through. How old are your kids? I have a 21-year-old. Really?

Lorelei, who's in the movie Boyhood. She's the older sister. Oh, okay. And then I have two 10-year-old girls. So all girls, but that's a pretty good gap in time. So what has changed in your relationship? Now, I have to assume that what you went through as a child with your mother was not as intense as what happened in the movie,

or was it? Well, yeah, it kind of was. Oh, yeah? Yeah, sure. So your mom kind of got saddled with a drunk, abusive man? Well, that was definitely my point of view. I mean, the movie enforces a kid's point of view. So what the reality is and what I experienced might be two slightly different things, her reality.

But there are indicators that that point of view would indicate that this person is an abusive person. Well, not, you know, define abusive. You know, I think there's some good qualities there. He's not really. Right. He doesn't punch anyone. He's got his issues. I think a lot of people grow up where, you know, I remember that was kind of one of the

things of my childhood. We're always in school or sometimes even in the house in certain situations. You're kind of on the cusp of physical violence. Well, you're terrified. Yeah. If you're with an explosive person that's erratic, you walk around going, oh, God, don't. I hope it doesn't. I think it's a more gentle society now.

But even then, I grew up getting spanked in schools. You'd do the smallest violation and you'd get paddled. And it was just a more violent culture. So I think everyone's a lot nicer now, which is a good thing. You know, you can't. Well, people are more aware. You can't beat your children. They're more aware that maybe there's another way.

Yeah. But then there's still people that would argue, no, the old way's fine. I'm fine. Those are the people who still, you know, whip their kids. Right. Like, hey, it, the old way's fine. I'm fine. Those are the people who still whip their kids. Right. Like, it worked for me. Look how great I turned out. Right.

So that's how I'm going to treat my kids. I grew up a child abuser. Yeah. I beat the shit out of my kids. It worked for my dad to me. It's going to work for you. Yeah. It's like the people who really have no introspection or any thought of maybe there's progress in

the world on how we treat each other. You don't have to hit kids. Yeah, you don't have to. I mean, there's reason and there's other systems of reward and punishment. So you never hit your kids? Are you kidding? No. I mentally screw with them, but I don't.

Yeah, that's the way to do it. So, but all right. So your dad was in the big city. What was he doing? He was in the insurance, like the movie, a guy who ended up in the insurance business, just a smart guy who had a family to support. So this is really an autobiographical movie all the way through, in a way.

Well, largely, but it's kind of, I'm not afraid of autobiography. It's kind of the impulse of so many of my films because I'm always filtering it through, in this case, a contemporary setting. Right. And all the actors I'm working with. So I think it's a good first impulse. Yeah. It's where I start from.

But I can't say at the end of the day everything in it is, you know, autobiography. You know, it's not so specifically but it's certainly the jumping off point the emotional yeah yeah i i want i feel that close to it but i'm not i'm not so vulnerable like oh it's so autobiographical it's because it's uh you know patricia's mom was kind of like that and you know ethan's dad was kind of like that and all the ideas kind of swirl around and And it becomes something a few degrees away. Well, how open was that conversation with these actors? I mean, you were working with them for how long?

It was 12 years? Yeah, we put in our 12 years on it. And it's pretty amazing to be able to shape a character over that big an arc and a canvas. Well, how structured was it from the beginning? You said, look, we're going to do this. If everybody lives. Yeah, if we all are lucky to be here 12 said, look, we're going to do this. If everybody lives. Yeah, if we all are lucky to be here 12 years from now, here's what we'll have. So you shot it in increments over what?

Roughly once a year for 12 years. And you'd shoot for what, three months? No, no, just a few days. Oh, really? Yeah, yeah. It was an intense shoot. I mean, it would be several weeks of all scripting the movie yeah yeah but again I would work on the script and then I rehearse a lot I work with the actors and it's not like acting

exercise rehearsal it's more like rewriting and working the dialogue and the ideas through the actor because I'm what I'm going for is a very realistic performance so you let them follow their own impulses yeah a little I mean, I'm there to go, hey, that works, or let's think about this, or have new ideas. So I'm very process-oriented. Do you record all that? No, I just have pen in hand. Just hang out? And a laptop nearby.

You're just hanging out with the actors? Talking, reading through scenes, having more ideas, finding humor. The experience of watching it was fairly fascinating because the story is what it was fairly uh fascinating because the story is what it is but the phenomenon of what you did is something that you've i've never seen or felt before i mean you can you can see a documentary what what was it that one with the british kids or what oh the seven up series right where every seven years you right revisit people

but that's different. I mean, you're actually- It's a documentary, yeah. Right. But you're moving through this narrative over this period of time with these same people growing. It was like- Aging. Growing up.

Yeah. It was a little- I didn't know how to feel. Oh, good. Good. Yeah, because it's- I wanted- that's really- the film's really about time, you know? And it hit me in a flash like this. Why can't I make this movie? I just saw the whole finished movie in my head.

It was everyone in it was just 12 years goes by. The kids grow up, the adults age from their, you know, maybe late 20s to early 40s or whatever the ages would be. And you see this progression of time, how it would work through this family. And I just felt that. And that was the cool idea for the story I was hoping to tell, what I was hoping to express about growing up and parenting and all that.

But yeah, that was... But then you were able to get these actors to commit to it and make it happen within two hours. I mean, see, that's the mindfuck there, is that you know that these actors have had this life over the last 12 years. I mean, Christ, Ethan's been in a few movies, maybe even some of yours, one or two of them. Yeah, we've done other movies.

We had five kids between us. Yeah, and you know that. But to sort of condense it into this process of narrative and of this finite amount of screen time, there was something mind-blowing about the emotion that you feel to witness it. I've never seen anything like it, so I didn't know how to feel. How did you feel about it when you watched it? I bet the whole thing, because it's really these intimate little moments, most epic. But it's the same people. It's bizarre. Yeah. It's never been done before they get older yeah and i

i i has it i bet the farm no not in a narrative i'm pretty sure i'm pretty sure it hasn't because the film came out in july now and you don't know it's like a scientist publishing your your paper right sure you just put it out there and others can and you know i expected film historian you know to be at the ber Berlin film festival and some. Yeah. No, this was done. Actually in Finland from 57 to 68,

a young, you know, you know, okay. Yeah. You know, lay it on me. I had never seen this film before and I didn't,

it felt completely original to me. No one's waited on you yet. Not yet. It's almost been six months. All right. The, the, the test or whatever this,

that is is going through but it felt original but i mean you know 12 years later i can tell you i think why no one has ever done this because it's just a like wildly impractical yeah the amount of time and you know how you would do it it's really really hard to raise the money and all that stuff. And then on a psychological level, I think it's unlikely because most filmmakers were sort of control freaks, the same way a writer or anyone is.

You want to shape the material. And in this case, we were all having to give away a little bit of that control to the our collaborator here was an unknown future you know right right it's like the way you perceive the future as you go through your life you have a 12 year you know where are you going to be 12 years sure i don't know and you go you know i have some goals or some thoughts to that yeah and if you're lucky you're here but it won't be maybe exactly what you thought. But you're working toward it. So that's how we had to approach this movie.

It's like, I can't tell you exactly what some of the details are going to be year 10 because we haven't gotten there. I don't know. Something big could happen in the culture. So you were writing that as it went along? Yeah. Yeah, of course. I had the structure, and that was the autobiographical element. Like the family moving, new jobs, the bigger structure.

I mean, I knew the last shot of the movie. Yeah. And I had a beginning and end and kind of the bigger bones of how you would describe your life. Right. But the minutiae. Had to be. I had a year to fill in that every year. I could go through my life thinking like, okay, oh, that.

Memories every year I'm going like fifth grade, fifth grade, fifth went on that year what was i thinking or right and then i'm also in touch with my young actors you know throughout the year well one's my daughter so i'm really know her well yeah but like oh things will go on at school and like oh that'll trigger a memory of mine was that guy pursuing acting your actor yeah. I thought that was important at the very beginning in casting Eller Coltrane. He was a young man. He was like six. Yeah. He had been in a movie and some commercials.

He had an agent, you know, a little headshot. Sure. You know, I thought that was important that the family had expressed some support for that endeavor because, you know, we were heading off on a long journey. And if I would have just scooped some kid off the sidewalk and put him in a movie they could easily come back and say you know he never wanted to do this sure but at least i thought this was a better chance out of the gate to only deal with kids who seemed to have enjoyed being an actor who had the family support and that would create a situation more likely to make it to the end so this all had to be conceived over this

arc of 12 years but you had to sort of you know write the you know things that needed to happen in terms of what happened in the culture and also in terms of what happened in their life yeah so that was the fun part the process of writing like when you write a movie the the order is you write it you cast it and you shoot it right then you edit it and then it's done where this was like every year i got to write it shoot it yeah edit it and then you know maybe put it on the shelf for five months and then come back and look at it and think about it and then think about next year and what else might, what's going on in the world. So it was just a, it was 12 part process, but it was really fun to spend those years just, you know, when you're, when you're working on something, everything's channeling into it.

All your ideas or just, I could go through my life going any notion of parenting or any memory of childhood could maybe find a place in this. Well, I mean, but how, how did you feel the final thing was? What was the effect it had on you? I know you've been in it, but see, I'm confounded by it. Because it doesn't feel like a regular movie. Because you walk in knowing this thing. I don't know what it would have been like if I walked in not knowing that. I've talked to some people who don't know anything.

They go in and it really screws with their head. It's kind of great. Because they're sitting there going, is that the same guy? Yeah. I've had people go, how did they – they're just trying to figure it out. Like, oh, the movie starts. It's like, oh, it's a period film. Like, oh, look at that computer.

Look at that game. This is a period piece. And then it slowly catches up and they go, oh, they've cast another kid that looks a lot like – how'd they do that? And so they're an hour in when they realize, oh, okay, this is all the same people and it's, I see what's going on here. But that's kind of beautiful that you could be so, you know, virginal, I guess, and have that experience. Well, it's interesting that, like, to me that you like this emotional movement through time. Like, it seems to be thematic with you that there seems to be something even with slacker that you know the the story is not relevant yeah there's no and and you know i

don't know if you like going back to that there is no story no i know there's no story but there are encounters there are movements and you find yourself wanting to get invested with certain people and then they go away they drift yeah but but that must have been where you were at but you're you're yeah you're what you were trying to sort of do on screen was figure out how you move through this time i like that you're talking about slacker because it is kind of related in some weird storytelling narrative sense that seems like it was an early idea of mine that i had in my early 20s when i was first getting into film that felt, again, kind of an original, a new way to tell a story I hadn't seen before. You know, I came to cinema thinking it was the Wild West, you know, like it was wide open territory.

I really thought there were going to be there were new ways to tell stories that I hadn't seen. And what's unique about cinema and how it relates to time and structure. Where did all this hammer you? I mean, so you like i mean so you made swacker when you were 28 what were you doing before that i was watching movies and thinking about cinema well i was making shorts and i was shooting a lot of film did you go to film school no i took a couple classes but i didn't i was kind of on my own where'd you go to school uh sam houston stayed a little school in east texas yeah i was in and around uh i went to the austin

community college a little bit took a few classes there you I was in and around. I went to the Austin Community College a little bit, took a few classes there. You never got a degree in anything. No, no. I'm a student for life, though. Good for you. Good for you. I'm proud of you.

But I really do think a lot about storytelling and cinema and narrative and the possibilities and the structures and time. And, you know, I'm the kind of guy who really, there's a million stories in the world, but it's like how to tell them so i was always excited about new forms well it's interesting because with slacker you can just walk into the middle of someone else's story and then walk out don't need to finish anything there not necessary well i was trying to actually capture i mean it was a couple levels. What I was thinking at that time was like, well, hey, I hadn't really, could you tell a story that would go from one character to the next interlinked?

But I think what I was trying to capture was how your mind processes a day. You know, you talk to someone like we're here now talking, but at some point in the future, I'm going to get back in my car and go somewhere. You know, like you can't get out of your own little sequence. Yeah. Your life started when you became conscious at age three or whatever. Right. And you're on a sequence you can't escape from. Right.

And there's also what's going on inside your head and what's going on in actual reality. Yeah. That's a completely fucked up thing. Two different things. Yeah. Yeah. There's this physical reality in front of you. But I was thinking in that processing the people you meet, the encounters, the way time you drift through it and you process the world around you and try to make sense of it.

Yeah. that people said, oh, they don't work, or they don't, they were drawing these huge conclusions based on a three-minute, five-minute, like, you don't know, how do you know they're not on their way to work? Two people have anti-work crusade, you know, they, They wanted to hang someone. Manifestos or something. I forgot about that. It's kind of funny, but we do judge people, because that's all we can do, you know,

we're trying to make sense of the world. But they hung someone on you. Make it comprehensive. Right. But they took that movie movie because it was a provocative movie and no one had ever seen anything like it and you know it came out of nowhere in a way and you're this independent filmmaker and then all of a sudden you represented that movie represented a generation that was crazy it was crazy that was insane it's still mean, you know, it's still sort of. Yeah, the term was thrown around and yeah, that you kind of.

So how do you get to that point? So you're in Huntsville. Yeah. You're doing your thing. What kind of kid were you? I mean, were you just like, were you interested in the arts? Were you like, did you actually have two sisters? I had two older sisters and, you know know my kind of an academic family we didn't

have any money at all there was no summer camps or vacations or anything but you know education was important yeah arts were important you know my mom painted my grandparents were kind of artists in their own way and we went to museums and movies and culture you know great stuff you could do cheap and free my dad on, he was kind of a weekend dad, but we went to a lot of museums. In Houston. Yeah. Good museums in Houston.

Yeah, good museums. Yeah. So, you know, the zoo, museums, it was always, you know, cultural. They cared about our souls, I guess, you know, in that regard. So, yeah, I grew up writing. I thought I would, I just wanted to express stories yeah characters and yeah i was writing plays in junior high even putting them on um not really just writing yeah and yeah sometimes the school would perform or we'd do readings right i had a gift for dialogue and at a young age i was

yeah i would win the short story contest right you know i was that guy but i was also parallel to that i was um an athlete you know. I happened to be, it's embarrassing, but I was kind of like one of the better athletes. I was a quarterback on the football team. I was the baseball player. I went to college on a baseball scholarship. So I had this kind of dual world, but I kind of, at age 17, I was like, I want to play in the major leagues, baseball, and be taken serious as a novelist I want to write books and I failed in both of those things

in my life but I discovered movies somewhere around age 20 well growing up in East Texas it wasn't really the idea that you could make a movie especially when I grew up everybody knows that now everybody's a filmmaker.

Everybody knows what a director is. Sure, sure. You can do it with your phone. Yeah. Yeah. But back then, it was prohibitive. It was expensive. How old are you?

54. So you're two, three years older than me. So we grew up in the same, like I knew it, because like Dazed and Confused, I'm like, I know that. I know that place. Yeah, we're the same generation.

Yeah. So it took me a while to discover that was my medium. I had this visual thing, and it clicked. I was writing, you know, short stories and plays. At the moment, I really felt I was discovering cinema. And once I did that, I never looked back.

But, you know, it's still a long process. Do you remember what movie it was? What made you believe? It was no one movie. It was just kind of falling in love with cinema in general you know there's two different levels you know there's films that make you love movies but those aren't the kind of movies you think you can make well what movies it was independent films that i saw in the early 80s very low budget somewhere early john sales movies oh yeah you know chan is missing i can just list

all the indie films that played at theaters then, and foreign films, too. Were you driving into Austin to see them? No, I was living, I had moved back to Houston. I was an offshore oil worker for like two and a half years, what would have been my junior and senior year of college. I got a job working, I was just kind of working on oil rigs. Really? Saving up my money. Yeah, it was a good experience.

Wait, you'd the out in the water yeah you fly out there in helicopters and hang out there for a week to 15 days sometimes and so you got a head full of truffaut and you're out on the oil rig out there i'm reading i'm reading the library when i wasn't working so i got a lot of reading time but on land i noticed i was just what did i do today i read till, and then I went to four movies. Hmm. I was kind of falling in love with cinema. What do you do as an offshore oil rigger?

I was working with subsurface safety valves. I was kind of the grunt laborer. What does that mean? You're underwater? No. You're on the rigs, but you're dropping tools down into the wells. They're very deep, but they have the well heads up on those platforms. So when I see Deepwater Horizon explode,

I worked on the elements that are trying to keep it safe. You have a safety valve if the rig falls over in a hurricane that it seals and doesn't explode. Right. I've always been really aghast at something. I said, you know how many things have to go wrong for that to happen? It's all about safety and stuff. So it's horrible when that happens.

That's a hell of a job. Yeah. Yeah. People say, was that dangerous? I was like, no, I only knew one guy who got killed in my two years. So I don't know if it's that dangerous. How did he get killed? Oh, a fire.

Oh, shit. Yeah, really sad. He was a friend. I think about him to this day fairly regularly. And he would just graduate. We were kind of the college boys. I'd been to two years of college, which is a little rare. Yeah.

And he had just graduated with a degree in sociology. What do you do with a sociology degree? He lucked into a job just the way I did, saving up money, not sure what to do with life. And then he worked on another rig, but we would come back through a hookup and I went back one time to the same rig he worked on and said, hey, did you hear about Jimmy? Yeah, there was a fire. He died.

I was like, really? So I always think, you know, one of those sad little things the rest of your life. You think you're living a life that he's not able to lead. Was he the first guy that you kind of knew like that? We all had friends in car wrecks and stuff. Oh, yeah, that's right. There's cancer in car wrecks. I lost friends growing up.

High school car wrecks. Yeah, that's kind of messed up, too. So it's amazing any of us survived those years, but the odds are we will. So you were after a new way of telling a story and doing something different with cinema, which you did. Yeah, it came to me, yeah. And in Dazed and Confused, which I thought,

like when I saw that, I was like, all right, he's polishing it up a little. You know what I mean? which I thought, like when I saw that, I was like, all right, he's polishing it up a little. You know what I mean? And your attention to detail was spectacular because it was a period piece. Yeah. And it was my period. Yeah, yeah.

70s. Rock and roll. Yeah, man. Big Lizzy. Yeah, exactly. And everything looked familiar to me because Albuquerque was similar. Yeah. It was a place you'd go drive into the mountains and you'd party and it was all the same.

What do teenagers do? You drive around, you try to be cool, you find a place of your own. Yeah. Because you're not going to be in your house on a Friday or Saturday night looking for something to do, bond. McConaughey, you found that guy. There's a guy like that in every town. There is. People love that character of Wooderson so much and Matthew so owned that guy

because he came in on an audition and said, hey, I'm not this guy but I know this guy. That's what he said. Everybody,

yeah, I know this guy and he just became that character, that guy who's sort of hanging out. Oh yeah, man. Maybe he has a job

but he's still dating high school girls. He gets cooler the older, you know, like the guys who couldn't date a girl their own age but pretty pretty soon by the time you're a senior freshman just think you're cool because you're older and maybe you have a car right so you just you have to go

to the younger girls he's a couple years away from creepy yeah yeah it's gonna get creepy here we figured oh he's like 22 right right 23 but once you're 25, it's over. So you usually just find the last one and marry one before it gets too creepy. Where'd you cast that thing? Where I lived in Austin. Was Makani an Austin guy? Yeah, he was a UT film student. Really? Yeah.

So you kind of discovered that guy. Well, I never really believed that word because- Right. Well, you're the first to use him. In that way. He had been in, I think he'd been in a couple of commercials and he'd done, I mean, his destiny was laid out. I was just there at the beginning.

Are you friends? Yeah. Yeah. I talk to him all the time. You do? Yeah. Because, what is it, a Texas thing? I don't know.

We're two guys from East Texas, you know? He grew up near you? Well, not really. East Texas is pretty large. It's, you know, up and down, but similar town, similar thing. And our families were close. You know, we knew each other about five years before we realized, get this, our dads played on the same college football team.

Not only were they on the same team, they played the same position. They were both defensive ends in the early 50s for the University of Houston Cougars. Really? Matthew and my dad. Isn't that crazy? Both of your dads your dad yeah they were on the same team Matthew's dad passed away while we were making day so I never met him uh-huh but my dad is still with us and I asked him you know years in because Matthew said his dad I'd say do you ever play with a guy you know no guy Makani goes yeah yeah he beat me out for the starting position one week, and I'd beat him out the next.

I'm like, that's Matthew's dad. And he goes, oh, gosh, I never put that together. Isn't that funny? Is your dad still in Texas? We go back, yeah. Yeah, I just talked to him. And your mom? 84.

Yeah. Yeah, she's still in Texas back in Huntsville. Really? I'm lucky. I'm really lucky at this age. You know, it's weird. I got both of mine, too. Yeah.

I just, you know, it's that stage of life but i'm grateful you know that well you know you talked a little bit about how you're making the movie and also living the life has you know changed your relationship with these people like i mean having your own kids and then putting it on screen some of that stuff emotionally anyway yeah what what what has changed between you and your mother? Have you was there? What is it? What is it? Is it forgiveness? Is it it's understanding? It's kind of like, you know, like you look at your the best qualities, your parents, and you'd like to think you inherited them or you're aware of those in yourself. You'd like to think my mom was very passionate and very, you know, kind of get things done.

Kind of a manipulator too. Like, hey, we're going to build a patio this weekend. Yeah. Like, I kind of want to just like watch TV and not do much. I don't know. She would get you working. And you need that as a director. Hey, let's put on a show.

Yeah. Hey, you can do this. And, you know, you have to be kind of a manipulator. So she was good at that. Yeah. And, but very passionate, you know, followed that. You know, my dad's very level-headed and rational. He's the ultimate, I don't know what they were doing together,

but they got about a 10-year marriage and three kids out of the deal until I think they weren't meant for each other. Sure. But I like my dad's level-headedness and I was able to, I think, grab some of that. But did you always get along with them? You have to be kind of pragmatic. Get along with them?

Yeah, pretty much. I mean, varying degrees of alienation at certain points, but never a hostile situation. I felt they were, in general, supportive of – I mean, it got a they were in general supportive of, I mean, it got a little in my twenties. I think they just didn't understand what I was doing. Like, are you working?

No. Are you, what are you doing? I'm like, I'm watching movies and trying to, it's like, you had such potential. We thought you would be something by now,

you know, 25, 26, 27. I'm a shot of film and your friends are becoming lawyers and phds and you already dropped out of school though yeah it's like well you've thought about getting back in school right now i'm really into what i'm doing you know so it wasn't until like it's by the time the movie came out i was like 29 pushing 30 when slacker and it was like once they see your picture in the paper in an article about the movie it's like oh okay something's happening yeah that's that's cool it means something yeah

so it's like yeah so i had that decade of kind of right you know undetermined so i have a sympathy for people in their 20s slightly disappointed parents yeah slightly but but supportive but they loved me i never questioned nothing they can do at that point. And I wasn't asking them for any money. Oh, that helps. That helps. I wasn't, you know, I was kind of. So they had no control. They had no technical control.

It's just encouragement. But my, you know, the dad gives the advice. Well, you should think about maybe getting back in school or, you know. And my mom was like, oh, honey, if you don't, you're not asking me for anything. And if you're not working and you're not in school and you're happy, that sounds great. You know, she was, my mom's a little subversive too she she was kind of troublemaker yeah a little she had that you know so she was like oh if you can get away with that that's great you know a little bit of stick it to the man yeah attitude and you you've got a little she's a little radical when did you start a waking life was until 2001 huh yeah it came out i started that

in 99 oh so you've been working on it for a while i've been thinking about waking life for years and years because what i go that's kind of closer to slacker actually it is structurally it is so what was the idea that you know actually if you want to put those two movies together the the dream i describe in slacker in the monologue at the beginning of the movie, really is waking life. Yeah. A dream in a way. The idea for waking life preceded me even knowing I was a filmmaker. Right.

It was based on an actual series of lucid dreams I had as a senior in high school. Is that true? Yeah. And I thought it was some strange evening, not drug induced, maybe tension induced or whatever, but I fell into this thing and just couldn't wake up, but it was aware I was dreaming and I was kind of on some quest. It's really stayed with me. And when I finally did wake up, you know, pouring sweat by, you know, I've been asleep for only like five minutes, a few minutes sure and it was something that always stuck with me and i was trying to discover what that is and i did a lot of scientific

research and studied about lucid dreaming and what it is and what it is and even talked to some of the foremost you know experts scientists in in that field so i learned a lot about you know the brain science behind it but for me as a storyteller, I was like, that's a great narrative device. It's an ultimate kind of story, a dream within a dream with a story and the levels. And so that had been swimming around as a kind of a story I wanted to, something I wanted to try to express. And animation enabled you to do that? Exactly. Because it was really boring and

pretentious and all that live action but when i saw the animation technique some friends of mine were working on were developing um there in austin some buddies of mine i was like you know that that that film that doesn't work that i've been thinking about for all these years, if it looks like that, it'll work. Because it's real sound, and yet it's clearly a human construct. It's a painting. It's a drawing. And yet it feels real. And that's how dreams are.

A dream is you accept them as reality. It's only when you wake up that you go, oh, wait, I was in a trench in World War I, or I know somewhere. Yeah, yeah. There was someone there who I know died 10 years ago, but that should have tipped me off that it wasn't real, but I accepted it as real.

We accept them as real. So I thought, oh, that's an interesting way to tell a story. You had to adapt to it. Yeah, yeah, you have to. I love that about movies, though. There's a certain latitude within movies, and I've always believed this. If you set your terms of what the movie is, the audience wants to go there. You just have to lay it out and be consistent with it and be clear. around some of my movies that I'm really trying to tell a pretty clean story, a pretty direct communication of something. And it's often just told in a very different way,

but I am trying to communicate directly. I'm not trying to, I'm like, I like a clean story. You're not trying to hide anything or make it complicated. Or be too obscure. Sure. There's enough complication around. That's like, or be too obscure. Sure. There's enough complication around.

That's like, again, it's some kind of life. There's enough noise and can we just talk directly? It's sort of a cop-out too. It's hard to do. To complicate, you know, or to let the, you know, or to sort of like, no, I'm not going to resolve that. I don't appreciate that kind of cleverness because there's, I mean, it can be done well, but I don't like it when someone's toying with me.

Right. Because they can. It can be done well, but I don't like it when someone's toying with me. Right. Because they can. Well, and then like the trilogy that you did, Before Sunrise, Before Sunset, and then Before Midnight. Right. Did you know when you did Before Sunrise that this was the plan?

No. Okay. No. Because this is all part of this weird obsession I think you have. A mild obsession with people aging. Yeah, or time. And what happens. Time. Yeah.

I mean. What time does. I had happens. Time. Yeah, I mean. What time does. I had no idea. I mean, I'm roughly 10 years older than Julie and Ethan, and I was trying to make a film about two young people who feel this attraction to one another, who have this connection. And that's autobiographical. It did feel like a foreign film, though, a little bit. Well, yeah. And it helps that it's in a foreign city.

But no, it has it. It's very very european allowing them to talk yeah you know it's almost more french right like you mentioned truffaut yeah there is eric romer yeah definitely right like two people talking and not much happening and love is in the air that's enough that yeah that's enough that's how my mind works you know and as a filmmaker it's sort of my own curse you know like even i was in my 20s and i met this woman in philadelphia and we walked the streets all night you know it took hours and hours to even kiss you know it was like just our minds were firing and we were talking and there was this real connection it's great who knows is that hormonal is it whatever it is what happened to that woman even as i was doing that i was like i want to make a film about this and she's like what are you talking about i said this just this feeling you know so i'm trying to make a film okay five years later i'm trying to make a that

film about just a feeling was that the line where you kissed her though it wasn't a narrative when you said i want to make a film about come on about yeah we have to kiss somewhere in here no i don't think so i'm more of like a Woody Allen, Annie Hall. Let's get the first kiss over with right now so we can, you know. Now let's talk about like, because I was talking to my friend about this too, that you were able to do exactly what you want to do as an artist. And it seems like even the big, huge movies, like School of Rock, now that was a movie. Made some money.

Yeah. A lot of money. It did pretty well. So. It didn't feel like we were setting out to make a hit. You know, I was trying to make a cool movie that I would like. With you and Mike. Jack Black and Mike White.

We all just, let's make a cool movie, you know. Whose idea was it? We have a commercial structure. It was Mike White's idea. Yeah. You know, he had this vision. He knew Jack. He had this idea.

I've talked to him. I've talked to both of them. Yeah, great guys. And they had this vision for all these kids playing instruments. And I was like, yeah, let's. Had a script. And I just sort of came aboard right at the point it was sort of starting to go the wrong direction maybe. It was being overdeveloped by the studio.

And I kind of, you know, a film needs a director. the studio and I kind of, you know, film needs a director. So I came in and I think with Mike and Jack, we just said, okay, we've got kind of what we need here. Let's just make it cool. You know, we don't need to end it with them winning the thing and donating the money. It was too overly plotted, you know, in a certain way. And so I like to think I came in and sort of, you know, and as a storyteller, you just kind of streamline and make something make sense to you. And so, again, that kind of clear storytelling. A lot of films, they don't even recognize the power of the medium they're working in.

They overly explain things. They, oh, why will we care about this character unless his dog has died? And, you know, they overly plot things. Audiences get it. It's called identification. You put someone on the screen and spend five minutes with them and I guess that's our hero. And you can use that to crazily subverse events. Travis Bickle in Taxi Driver.

I care about him. Why? Because I'm intimate with him. I see him driving. I feel he's vulnerable. He's a vet. He's writing in a diary. That's a good point. I never thought about that. But then at some point you go, this guy's a psychotic.

Yeah. He's out to shoot a presidential candidate and kill some other people that he's judging in an Old Testament fashion. Right. So this guy, he's not really a good citizen, is he? Right. But we like him. Tony Perony perkins and in uh you know psycho right he's already killed or you know he's dispensing of you know the car yeah and it's it's in the quicksand or that pit and it almost sinks in the audience we go once it goes under we're like ah we're

relieved you know hitchcock's really twisted that way so we're now on the side of the the bad guy yeah you know like film's powerful in in senses of identification sure so you don't need a whole bunch of background you don't need to explain everything people are with it we're humans relating to other humans and we you don't right so films spend and this is you know most scripts the first 20 30 pages where they're trying to explain and build up and all these studio notes about why should we care about them? What are the stakes? You know, just get to it. You know, just get to it. And people make up their own mind. Right. Yeah. Don't over explain. It's a powerful medium. You don't need to. Oh, boy, you see some bad, bad movies that just never stop over explaining. Oh yeah. Well they have to, because that's why I've kind of largely avoided plot driven. I just don't think that way. Right.

And what I've largely done, I think if I had to analyze it would replace like plot machinations, you know, with structures to do with time, you know, because that's how we process the world in our own worlds. Our lives, we're living.

And so I've kind of replaced one for the other. But one, to me, is very true to life. Like, people get it. Oh, you're going to shoot this and it'll be 85 minutes of real time walking around Paris? Okay, I understand that because I've spent 85 minutes walking around today,

you know? So it's not hard to crack that as a structure. You just have to make it compelling and believable. But that's what I just remember was, that was an interesting thing about, about, about boyhood is that there were moments where you got the, the groove,

you got that. We were, we were in the simple life of just people, you know, going through life. But there were moments where you thought, like, something's going to go down. Oh, it's about to happen. Yeah. That's crazy to me.

And it shows. I never knew. Wait, you heard that before? Yeah, no. The first screening we had, and I had shot the movie. And we made the actors. We all were so surprised when we're sitting there at Sundance with 1200 people in a theater.

And this is, I'm thinking like the scene where they're farting around, throwing saw blades at the walls at Sheetrock at a teenage camping trip. And there's these blades around, there's kids hanging out. That's the scene. You feel the audience just, I heard a chill. Right. And we're like an hour and 20 minutes into the movie at this point or hour and halfway through the movie and i felt this chill oh my god they think something's about to happen and it never crossed my mind never as the creator and my actors we never even talked about it but i said oh wow

that's so interesting we're so conditioned that's think, okay, why would we be watching a movie unless something extraordinary happens? I felt that that was exactly the scene. Yeah. And then there's later, like the dad says, hey, no driving and texting. And then he's driving with his girlfriend and she shows him a text and a picture of a little pig. And he's driving and actually looking at the phone. So you think, okay, here's where the car goes off the road. and he's driving and actually looking at the phone.

So you think, okay, here's where the car goes off the road. But the truth is, you know, we all drive and look at our devices and hope we don't get in wrecks. What's frustrating is when you get ahead of a movie, you know, the horror film, like, really, don't, how about locking the door? You know, when they're doing dumb things on screen. So I wanted the problems of boyhood to be, feel like real to life, like, you know, the problems of boyhood to be feel like real to life like you know the kind

of life all right the problems we confront and try to resolve best we can and i like that over you know i like that she remains like the the mother character is somewhat unapologetic yeah and and i i think that was a good decision. She's clearly there for the kids, has her own problems, but her life, she's a good mother. Yeah, she loves her kids and she's trying. Right. But she's a good mother. She's going to have a life. Yeah.

Yeah. That's how it felt in my household. It's like, you know, my mom was my mom. Right. And there weren't a lot of looking back. Yeah. That's how it felt in my household. It's like, you know, my mom was my mom. Right. And there weren't a lot of looking back. Yeah. There wasn't a lot of introspection. It's like, oh, well.

Yeah. That didn't work out. Or have you ever come up to her with the sort of like, why didn't you? Or why? Why? How come? I'm afraid to ask that. Really?

I'm kind of non-confrontational. Wow. I think my sisters have. What did they get? Oh, you know, a little crying and emotional. But I think once we were all older and had kids, my sister, you start judging your parents differently. And they were like, well, why did we do that? Or how did that happen? You know, you start, you have this, like I was saying, this generational lag of communication.

What are you finding? We never got to that. What are you finding your relationship with your mother is now and with your kids? You know, just, you know, you're kind of. Is she better with the grandkids? Resolved. You know, it's like, yeah, it's what it was. That's the way I am with almost every element of my life.

It's like, yeah, those are the cards you're dealt. You did the best you can. That's your hand. Make the best of it. Don't look back. You know. I don't know, but you process it in a two-hour-plus movie. You know, I mean, you're processing those emotions.

Sure, I am. And maybe that's, you know, there was some trauma in childhood. It wasn't, I mean, I think we all feel traumatized just as humans in this world. Just trying to, every psyche is extremely complex and it's really hard to just make it through the world no matter what, you know, where you start from. But you had, from your point of view,

when you were a kid at that age, that guy that your mom was dating in the movie, I don't want to keep saying your, but in the movie was a guy you dealt with. Sure. So on some level, that to me, no matter who you are, sure, life is what it is. There's the cards you dealt with. That's a violent environment. Sure. And it's a frightening environment.

Intimidating when you're 8 9 10 it's well it can be devastating because like you got your real dad and then you got this stranger i know who your mom who wanders he wanders into your this is stepmothers can fall in the same you know there's a whole you know cinderella thing like watch out for stepmothers too because suddenly there's this adult authority figure in life exerting control and opinion right over you and wow like i didn't invite you here and you're not my dad and you're not my biological anything and i'm not even going to call you dad you know i'm sorry because you're not my dad right and yet you're in my house i can't like i don't think i ever really registered what that must have been like as much, empathetically, until I saw your movie.

I talked to a woman last night just at a function. She came up to me and thanked me for that. She goes, I don't think I've seen that in a movie where the multi-household, the new parents, like, what it feels like to go back and forth and have new. Yeah, it's not. I mean, there's some dramatic dramatic moments but it's just also like well that's the life you adapt to because you're you're just adapting to your parents new right surroundings and kids kids are amazingly adaptable you know you read these studies about like homeless kids sure like hey we're living in a cardboard box under a freeway and the kids are

like okay let's go the grocery store is where the cardboard is. Let's go. We'll go out and get it when it quits raining. Right. They're very adaptable as a species. And they're kind of like, let's get together and make this work. But clearly your parents were stable enough because you've got your shit together. Yeah, and so do my sisters. Right. And your mom, that was the integrity of that character and obviously of your mother is

that she may be stubborn and she may have made bad choices, but she's certainly going to look out for you. Yeah. At the end, we were always going to kind of pull through. I mean, do you have a choice? But yeah, it felt that way. So Fast Food Nation, I love that book. I enjoyed the movie a lot. It must have been a hard thing to figure out what the hell the story was going to be from that book.

Yeah, that was, you know, Eric Slosser and I got to talking. And he's like, you know, what would the movie from this book be? I said, well, wouldn't it be a documentary? You know, and eventually, years later, they did make a movie kind of called Food Inc. Yeah. That was, you know, it's not based on Fast Food Nation. But Eric was involved in it. Sure. But our job, and I was like, called food ink yeah that was you know it's not based on fast food nation but eric was involved in sure but our job and i was like well i tell stories you know i'm i'm a character guy i'm you know like working with actors and and so we were talking about dramatizing stories within that non-fictional environment right that would tell the story in

a different way you know so that was a challenge to adapt that material but it was it was really fun to kind of see the multi-sides of like the fast food meal you know you got the executives you got the immigrant labor you've got the teenager working at the place and you know it's a fun way to to tell a story how'd you feel about that movie challenging uh iing. I like it. It was that, and I did that, and Scanner Darkly

came out around the same time. And looking back on it, it's like, those are both really kind of dark, bleak, strange stories. And I think that was what was going on

in my head at that time. It was like Bush-Cheney era grimness. You grew up with those guys yeah we at least the bushes we endured that decade that that time it was a tough century the first chunk of it for a lot of people i feel sorry for kids yeah at least i was you know an adult when did you start going to austin oh as a teenager i visited some older friends there and kind of thought oh i just seemed like a pretty you know you go to some music at the continental club you go to barton springs and

there's half naked girls running around you're like hey i could live here so it was always like that it was always a little yeah groovy it wasn't a it was a big music scene the film scene they had a big film school there but the film scene scene was kind of marginal when I got there. And it's been one of the great parts of my life to be a part of a film world that's kind of growing there culturally. Didn't you create the Austin Film Society? Yeah, almost 30 years ago. 30 years? We started in 85.

Started showing movies. Is that what the original intention yeah we just showed a lot of movies you couldn't see on campus or anywhere else in town where what was the venue um the dobie theater the extinct dobie theater they let us show at midnight and i just walked in there and talked to the manager hey i want to show these movies and we'll split the money and i just i was so passionate about film and i was making my own films then, but I kind of wanted to do something. I had a bigger calling about cinema, and I still do. We give out grants.

We show a ton of movies. I still host film series. I'm not doing the grunt work like I did all those years. I'm not writing the grants and booking the films and shipping. In my non-productive 20s i did start a non-profit organization that's still around and is a major does it have its own venue now yeah yeah the marquesa there yeah we've got our own 200 plus seat theater and show movies there and film every day we're fighting the good fight yeah we show 20 something a month yeah Yeah. We give out, we've given out like 1.5, you know, four or 5 million in grants to filmmakers around the state.

And I'm, I'm as proud of the film society and what it's become and what we've accomplished. Then, you know, my own films. Yeah. It's a,

it's been a wonderful parallel life that I can put time into, you know, and do you get him when, uh, when you give out grants and stuff, do you, did what may, what, how do you decide? Do you get him when uh when you give out grants and stuff do you did what may how do you decide do you do it on people we have some panelists from out of state who just they go through proposals and work samples and people need encouragement you know it's the culture

really doesn't care about art yeah and often the artists themselves young artists in particular haven't always had the family encouragement. So I found that. And it happened in my life. I got a grant for $2,600 to help me finish Slacker. You did? I parlayed that into getting family to loan me money to finish. So sometimes that's the first affirmative shot in the arm you've ever had as an artist like hey good good effort yeah so it's it's even beyond the money it's i think the notion that the the

bigger world cares and that they want to support an artist because the culture is can be kind of cruel to to artists i don't think we put enough emphasis on it. It's always the first thing cut from schools. Sure. It's seen as a sidebar, but I really think, you know, art and creativity, it will save us,

you know. I do. It's so important for the human soul and for the culture and it's the worst. Yeah, bad teachers.

Horrible. We so undervalue the absolute most important things because you can't find, you can't do the math and find a place for it in the marketplace. But it's the ultimate thing that will save us all. I don't think people. Education and feelings and sensitivity and the culture just, I mean, it's never been any better. It's better in other places in the world than it is the United States,

the winner-take-all capitalists, when they can't find a bottom-line place for something, like a teacher. It's like, oh, well, do we even need that? Do we really need, let's zero out the NEA, a bunch of elitists. It's insane. You couldn't do a worse investment to cut stuff like that.

And the thing is that as things go away, it becomes harder to find and you need things like what you're doing to provoke the people that are like us, that you're wandering around when you're 15 and like, this looks cool. I want to know about that. I know. I've enjoyed

just in boyhood like there's been some really younger teenage viewers to see things and see them spring up I want to know about that. I know. I've enjoyed just in boyhood. There's been some really younger teenage viewers to see things and see them spring up like, oh, wow, like that. To feel like you've kind of jumped into someone's life and jostled them around a little bit. I never think that way when I'm doing anything. But when you see the result and you see some kid kind of going, oh, wow, that was like a lot like my life. And it makes me think about my mom and my dad and my. It's great.

I'm like, oh, that's cool because that that kind of stuff sure inspired me. You know, I live for those moments when I felt connected to something far, far away from me. But through art, you know, sure. Made me think the world was a was an OK place and there was a place for me in it do you draw some sort of line where do you are there movies that you do for money no not really i never have no i haven't had to right i keep a low overhead and i've never done a movie that i wasn't super like thinking i was the only person who could do that even someone like school of rock is a good example. Well, people love that movie.

I'm not begrudging that movie. But the remake of The Bad News Bears, what was that? I came from the exact same place I came from School of Rock, which was like this movie seems to be happening. It's the only two times I've kind of come aboard a project that I didn't originate. Right. And, you know, that's kind of what our industry is. Right.

And in both cases, I felt like, well, it seemed like that movie was going to get made with or without me. But I felt called to, like, I'm kind of the right guy to do it. Right. Because I know that subject so well. In School of Rock, it was that character, Jack's character, Dewey Finn. Yeah. It was kind of me in a parallel world. Right.

And the rock and roll, you know, that was me. Music is such a big part of my life. And I felt I knew. And I had a daughter just that age at that moment. So I felt a sensitivity to fifth graders. Right. At that moment. So I thought, you know, all the roads lead to me being the best guy to do this movie. I have to feel like I'm the only because if anyone can do it, I shouldn't do it. And I've turned down plenty of movies over the years that I think are better movies because someone else directed it. Right. Like I wasn't the right sensibility.

So the industry, there's a lot of matchmaking going on. There's all these stories, maybe an adapted book, a remake, whatever. And they're just matchmaking for the right sensibility. And a smart producer or studio head might get that. Right. sensibility and a smart producer or studio head might get that you know right in school of rock it was scott rudin the producer who kind of started pestering me to do it yeah and i said no at first and then he convinced me that it was going to be a good creative experience which it was you know i was kind of afraid of maybe that you hear the horror stories like oh you know some

bad hollywood experience but i i sit, you know, some bad Hollywood experience, but I sit before you having not had a bad experience. Like both. Those are big movies for me. They're like 30 million, which is a low budget studio film, believe it or not. But for me, that's a,

it's a bigger film, but it's, and you feel that it's great to have those resources though. I got 50 days to shoot the film. Do you feel the pressure though? Do you get it? I don't, you know,

as a former athlete, I don't really accept the pressure. That's, see, that's what? Not 15. I don't, you know, as a former athlete, I don't really accept the pressure. See, that's what makes a director a director. I don't let it get to me. That's what makes a director a director. Pressure's a choice.

I don't, man. Pressure's a choice. I don't see it as that. I saw it as an opportunity. I thought I could take what I do, what I thought was my own working methodologies,

and take it to a studio level. And frankly, it's a big challenge to make a studio comedy. You know, I see a lot of comedies and I go, it's funny, but they left a lot of humor on the table. You know, I think comedy is a craft. You know, you really work it and you make it work and you rehearse. And, you know, I brought a methodology and a lot of thinking to, you know, certain comedies.

But that's not innately your thing, is it? No, i don't i mean on one level in in both those cases it it was like a perfect little moment in my life where i could do it if i was offered either those today i wouldn't because i'm doing other things you're excited you had a kid that was around that age yeah and i felt kind of like i gotta feel and it was the first time i said yes to something that, you know, I was like, well, I'm a little older. If it didn't end up a good experience, I could live with it. It wouldn't mess up my trajectory of what I think I'm here to do.

Pressure is a choice. Is that something you learned in high school athletics? It's kind of a thing a coach tells you. A smart coach. Is that where you heard it? But not, I heard it more recently. I didn't hear it when I needed to hear it. I know, I made a documentary about a very interesting coach at the University of Texas, and

it's kind of a thing he would say. What documentary was that? It was called Inning by Inning, Portrait of a Coach. Augie Garrido, kind of the greatest college baseball coach, the most winningest coach in NCAA history. And that, but that's not what he's about. He's kind of a Zen master and has a lot to say about the metaphors of the game and life.

And he's just a cool guy. You're kind of a Zen guy. Yeah. I actually related to what a head coach goes through is a lot like what a film director goes through. You're sort of seeing greatness in others and trying to maximize their skills whether it's an actor a composer a production designer a costume you've also got to keep your shit together for everybody yeah and then you have to be kind of a central authority orchestrator of all this creative energy and

abilities and so that's a an ability in itself you know a lot of directors were kind of um you maybe don't possess like none of us could be as good at actors but you know a lot about acting you know you know i know just enough and same with every element of filmmaking you know there's people who specialize more in all of it but i feel like i know you know do you know what i'm going for sure well. Clearly. You have to. Yeah. Do you hang out with the other Austin guys? Like when Mike Judge was there, were you guys hanging out?

Yeah. What about Rodriguez? Old friend. Yeah, see him. Robert? Everybody's kind of doing their own thing. Robert's got a whole operation out there. He's a mogul.

He's amazing. He's an amazing guy. So I'm always kind of awed by Robert's, you know, just sheer energy and creativity. Do you use his facilities ever? Every now and then. And he uses, we're kind of next door neighbors. Oh, really? Yeah, he has a studio right next to the Film Society.

So we're neighbors, brothers, you know, all the way down the line. Been friends for a long time. That's great. Yeah. And what about Mike? Yeah, Mike, you know, he used to be in Austin Moore. I think he's out here a little more. Yeah great yeah and what about mike yeah mike i you know he used to be in austin moore i think he's out here a little yeah yeah he's back out uh but no just a genius you know and one of the funniest like lunch companions you'll ever you know like yeah his

imitations his oh yeah that guy is he's one he's unbelievable he comes from albuquerque yeah yeah weren't you in one of the beavis but you were in the movie, weren't you? Yeah, yeah. I was doing imitations of like a high school football coach and he liked the way I kind of imitated one of them. Like, you know how some old guys kind of hit this upper register,

especially Southern guys. I'm warning you, you better. You know, they hit this register that, what? That's not your voice. But when they get angry.

Yeah. So I don't know. I think he thought it was funny. But he asked me to come in the studio and play a bus driver who beats the shit out of like beavis or something yeah so it was it was just fun and so i i like that you guys have a community down there and yeah and there's a there's a pretty way back like indie directors making really excellent films yeah austin it's anybody come out of your program that you oh yeah quite yeah a lot yeah a lot you

know and you guys doing features yet oh yeah yeah no tons it's sundance every year there's like numerous features from austin film society grants yeah and a lot of them were former grantees and people who you know like right out of college they stayed there and they you know made a film and made their next film. And, you know, I could list quite a few. Well, geez, man, it's great talking to you. You're doing great stuff. And I love the new film.

It was like nothing I'd seen before. Thank you. Well, that's high praise to just, you know, trying to do something you haven't seen before. So that's what it felt like to me. I was definitely making a film I hadn't made before. Yeah, and it was great talking to you, man. I'll see you in Austin. Alright, man.

Alright, buddy. And we never talked about Phil Linnet in Thin Lizzy. We can! Nah, it's cool. We can still do it! He's just an amazing guy. I mean, he's this black Irish dude with a big fro. Yeah. Who's... Dude, nobody sounds like him man

you're walking around that voice nobody sounds like like Phil Lennon nobody you know and one of the most beautiful songs

he ever did is called Still in Love With You you know that song yes oh it's it's the most beautiful ballad he could do

he could do anything who was your main your main high school bands wow from where I started high school bands? Wow. From where I started high school, like, you know, FM, Top 40, Leonard Skinner, Zeppelin, Aerosmith. And where I ended was like Zappa, Beefheart, King Crimson. Really?

Yeah. I had my own little... I had kind of a weird similar arc. So you had the mainstream shit. Yeah. And then I met the dude who worked at the record store, and then I was into Bowie. Yeah. What do you do here? The Residents. Like, Residents the dude who worked at the record store, and then I was into Bowie. Yeah.

What do you do here? The residents. Like residents. Have you heard of this guy, Brian Eno? Right. Eno was another one. It was a great time. There was all this experimentation.

Hey, you had to have a guy show you that shit, though. The guy who owned Evolution Records in Huntsville, Texas, this little conservative town, a record store called Evolution, which is challenging their belief system alone. It's not the place where Britt Daniel grew up, is it? No. The guy from Spoon? No, he grew up in a town, Taylor, which is, I believe it's Taylor. Taylor, yeah, that's right.

Similar experience. Similar, yeah. You're the weird guy, but there's always that little nook you can hang. That's why the record store. Evolution Records. Yeah, right there in Huntsville, Texas. He was the dude, right? Brian Eno?

Yeah, and there were always guys, they're like, hey, have you checked out? It's great. You know, it's just so important. But I guess people do that online now. I mean, right? I don't know, man. It's just like, I don't know. Friends, like someone you don't really know and you can show your interest and they can take you.

It seems like there's a little more of a sort of like one-upsmanship going on. And there's sort of, as opposed to like actually sharing. It's like you can go look at anything you want online and get access to it. But to actually be standing before a dude that's usually a little older than you. Yeah, you look up.

That knows shit. They have taste. They're 10 years older than you. They know shit. They've been through shit. Secret shit. The secret shit. Because Beefheart, that's secret shit.

Yeah, that's like, yeah, it's secret. You're not going to. Yeah, Zappa, like to be introduced into that world. Like, oh, you like Zappa? Well, have you ever heard Trout Mass West? Yeah. Like Zappa produced it. It's like, okay.

Yeah. A new tree branch forms. Oh, my God. I just got into that branch. It took me up until last year, two years ago. Really? Yeah. You were into Zappa when you were a teenager?

Teenager, yeah. Did you like heavy in? Into college, yeah. Once I went in, I went way in. I'm one of those freaks. I have every album teenager? Teenager, yeah. Did you like heavy in? Into college, yeah. Once I went in, I went way in. I'm one of those freaks. I have every album. Really? Yeah, yeah. That's outstanding. And when I was younger, it was, you know, Beatles, Stones, you know, like, you cover. You got all that.

That's like Christmas carols, man. They're in place. They're in place. They're not going anywhere in the great, you know. Right. But. Yeah, then the Zappa universe, someone gives you that. But Brian Eno, too, it's like, what the fuck? And the residents in that whole world yeah all that art rock going on yeah yeah and then you know and then it got more punky and more new new wave punky you know pretty soon i saw that happen discover that you were already out of high school like that started coming in

like the new wave stuff like i was still because you graduated what 79 right so i graduated in 81 so those last couple years shit started changing oh yeah there's some skinny ties on the quad oh it changed yeah it changed rapidly you know this movie i just shot a movie that'll be out probably next summer fall or whatever yeah but it's set in 1980 it's about a college freshman you just show up at college and you're listening to Van Halen and you go to discos to chase women

but then, you know, you end up at a punk club or a country bar because Urban Cowboy was big. That was great. So all these different,

it was all on the table. Like, some of that stuff. That's great. That's great. So it's an interesting cultural moment because then they go

to an art party and they're listening to the Talking Heads and the Roar. I lived that. That's fucking fascinating, dude. So it's an interesting cultural moment because then they go to an art party and they're listening to the talking heads. I lived that. That's fucking fascinating, dude. So it's a cultural moment where- That's what they said. It was all on the table.

And I'm like, who am I? Am I a punk? Am I a new? Am I heavy metal? Am I- You knew disco was dying. Well, disco sucked anyway, but you secretly, I'm amazed how that stuff has aged. I explained to my cast because they go, I'm one of these young guys who weren't even being born yet.

And they were liking all this disco music. I said, okay, let me tell you, I secretly like the beats and the way some of it felt. But as a thinking rock and roller, you could never admit it. You had to say this stuff sucked. You can say it now. You can say it now. I was in Donna Summer now. I kind of red had to say this stuff sucked you can say it now you can say it now I was in Donna Summer now yeah

I was in I like all I kind of rediscovered all this stuff and it just seems so shallow that song like Don't Leave Me This Way with that bass line

oh yeah it's kind of great but the come on man the shallowness of it was kind of projected onto it because you knew it was kind of disposable

they'd go into a studio often it was producer based they'd get some singers and beats and you know it's kind of like the worst of rap you know but it's kind of like it wasn't artistry and the lyrics were often very simple but it was there were hooks and beats and you know but like tell me about this juncture though because i've been sort of fascinated with that because that's unique to our generation we're not the 60s we're not old boomers we were literally in high school when like the 60s was fading it was zeppelin was established yeah but still that was even old

by the time we were in high school i mean we were there for in through the outdoor and maybe presence you were in right but uh but then all of a sudden you know new wave came in and punk actually hit the states after new wave for some reason where I lived. Yeah, it was slow. Things weren't instantaneous. What was going on in London and New York was years away. Right. And then when I was... I worked across from the University of New Mexico, so I knew artists.

I knew the art rock thing because of the guy at the record store, but you still had Van Halen. I was still in high school. I mean, when Van Halen 1 came out... I'm going to that concert. Right. But it was all there. Yeah.

And I tell a story, it might even be in my book, about bringing my buddy Dave, who was my friend who owned a fucking Firebird, to this college party where this band was doing performance art. Yeah. And it was that moment where he was like, I guess it's cool, is there beer? Yeah. You just wander in like, oh. Well, I knew sort of what was up.

And I'm like, Dave's never going to get this. Performance art. Yeah. But he was all right. Yeah. Minds are blown. Right. What compelled you?

That's what college is about. Was that the context that you were dealing with? Was that the only thing that entered this film for you? Was that weird vortex of shifting? And trying to figure out who you are and it's autobiographical too you know like i was that college kid showing up and with some ideas yeah being introduced like meeting i remember meeting you know actors and an actress and like gay guys in the drama department i'm like oh they're gay yeah i can't even think i knew any

gay people and i was like wow and they don't seem't think I knew any gay people. And I was like, wow. And they don't seem to have a problem with it. Yeah. But I was like, they're really cool. Look how smart and creative. And I like what they're,

you know, I was like, oh, wow. Like worlds were just opening. Right. Yeah. It was just mind blowing and cool people who didn't give a shit about the pep rally or

sports or, you know, what seems to rule high schools. And this is, and it was like, oh, ideas, art, energy, creativity.

So what's the name of this film? You're 18, 19 years old. Working title is That's What I'm Talking About. How far along are you? I'm starting to edit. I just shot it. Oh, really? Yeah.

I had a nice little gap this fall. Who's playing you? 33 days of production. Wonderful ensemble. It's a lot like Days, the big ensemble of young actors, none of which you probably know. Now, this is exciting. A lot of guys have been around, and you might recognize a few guys from young actors. They're in all kinds of stuff.

I'm excited. It's fun. I'm excited about it. How's the footage look? Great. Good energy. Dis I'm excited about it. How's the footage look? Good, great. You know, good energy. You know, disco footage, punk club. The last night we shot like a punk club.

Yeah. And I had a group, a local group, Riverboat Gamblers in Austin, a really excellent, excellent like punk band. And they did, as I remember, I told them like, can you do a punk song of the gilligan's island theme song because i remember a band in the 80s doing that sure and damn it if they did they did it starts off kind of a ballad then boom and they just it was they nailed it yeah it was awesome

i did another couple other punk songs and i remember going through austin 19 when i graduated college in like 86 or 87 i was there and uh i saw a band i was shit faced and i saw a band do like a punk rock rose of san antonio and i was like that was the first time i'd heard that song and i'm like that's the greatest song in the world it's like oh you know there's a traditional version of that no doesn't exist i have it though i have the bob wills version but just that one yeah but just that idea of taking something from your cultural past and revamping it, reusing it. I was like, oh, that's brilliant. I'm excited. You can do that in every art form.

You can take all this crap you were fed and turning it into something else. I'm excited about this movie. Yeah, me too. It fits right in there. It's like college. It sort of begins right where Boar Head ends. A guy shows up at college. Great.

It's an overlap. It's the same kid? No. It wasn't because that kid's kind of an artist kid, and my guys are sort of jocks. They're all on the baseball team, but they're like witty. People think athletes are kind of dumb, and some are, but there was a certain kind of energy and wit among sure particularly the older guys they were like so it's kind of trying to capture they're competitive jerks on one hand

but they're really funny and witty and you're the one who opened whose mind gets blown a little bit the fret there's a several freshmen coming right but you know hold your own you got to kind of sure hold your own with these guys all right so that So that's the challenge to stick in there, but we'll see, you know, check it out. I'm excited, man.

Great talking to you. Yeah. Yeah. We did it. We got thin Lizzie in. We got thin Lizzie. All right, folks,

that's it. That's our show. I hope you enjoyed that conversation. Very nice guy. And I like the fact that he's giving back to the world. Helping people out. Oh, my God. Go to

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