WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 570 - Andrea Martin

Episode Date: January 21, 2015

Actress and comedian Andrea Martin conquered the stage and screen, earning Tony and Emmy awards, performing in the legendary cast of SCTV and publishing her memoir, Lady Parts. But as she explains to Marc, there was one accolade that remained elusive throughout her career: Praise from her father. It's a situation Marc has no problem understanding, for obvious reasons. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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All right, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck, buddies? What the fucking ears? What the fuck, Stonians? I'm Mark Maron. Welcome to my show. I'm sorry I'm a little beat up. I'm a little strung out. I've had a long day. I'm recording this a bit earlier than I usually do in terms of the day I do it. It's in the evening. It's late at night as I record this. I've just shot a full day of Marin. We just got done with our second day. I'm a little out of my mind. I'd forgotten what it's like to shoot 12 hours, 13 hour days of television.

I'm very excited to be doing it. I do get cranky towards the end of the day, but today was sort of a bit of an emotionally taxing day in a good way. I'll tell you about it in a second. My guest on today's show is Andrea Martin. You might know her from Broadway theater. You might know her from SCTV. You might know her from some of her film roles. She's got a memoir out called Lady Parts. It's available now wherever you get your books. She's an amazing woman and an amazing talent. And I love her.

And I loved watching her as a kid on SCTV and whenever I see her. And I saw her right here in my garage sitting right across from me. It was tremendous. And I'll be sharing that with you minutes from now. But let's talk about me for one second. As I talked about the other day, what was that Monday about gratitude and about thinking about your life and realizing on some level that this is it this is all you got you better make the best of it because i don't know i i can't confirm that there's anything other than this and even if there is something other than this it might not feel like you think it will feel that's the weird thing about metaphysics and the idea of an afterlife or uh an ever after or a happy place

or a heaven or a hell or whatever. Those are all things that can be conceived within the human imagination, whatever it is, floating on stars or clouds or playing harps or being able to have angels wings or just a weird sort of fun cottony place or a burning fire where everything melts and your penis is always on fire and and you're you have uh your your head has got a rod through it and it's being used as some sort of uh mallet on a xylophone of other people's hate and pain sorry this is just an improv an improv hell those are all things that the human imagination can wrap it but maybe there's a frequency maybe i don't know but let's say that you die and it's

just sort of whatever it is even if it's the most amazing thing in the world you don't have consciousness so it has no bearing on what your ego can manufacture in the present time frame to make yourself feel special. If you can dig what I'm saying, kiddies. But it was a long day and I got a little cranky. I was also emotionally taxing, as I said before, in a good way. And I'll tell you about that. Because of some people I worked with. It was guys I worked with.

I worked with my old friend, Rick Shapiro, who I've known seemingly, it seems about half my life. He's a rare talent. He's a one and only. He's an authentic, an American original, a true freedom loving lunatic. And by freedom, I mean aesthetic freedom, complete freedom of mind, balls to the walls walls nutty freedom that is rick shapiro rick shapiro was a force of nature still is love the guy he was on my show last year he played my kooky neighbor my disturbing neighbor with a gun and a story to tell, Bernie. He is doing that role again. He's back. And Rick has been battling a very courageous battle with Parkinson's disease. And I got to tell you, he was better this year than he was last year. That's how great he's doing. But he's very emotional. He's very emotional to work with Rick because we have such a long history, but it's also emotional to work with Rick in this slightly different state. And he's very emotional because of the state that he's in.

And it was just a profound, amazing scene. We're just doing this thing we were doing, and I felt like crying. So there's something that happens sometimes when you can, you know, hire somebody that you love or hire somebody that you know in a long time i got people on the show that i've known for years and it's just beautiful so i work with rick and that was emotionally taxing in a very good way and then later in the afternoon andy dick comes because i'm doing a scene with him yeah he's on the show too and if if i could think of two more boundaryless beautiful people to do scenes with that might just completely drain me of my emotions in a good way, it would be Andy Dick and Rick Shapiro.

And we had a great time. Andy's a riot. Had a great time with him. He's doing very well. He's on the up and up. He's clean and sober. He's fucking hilarious. We had a great time today.

He's clean and sober. He's fucking hilarious. We had a great time today. You know, I guess what I'm saying is I'm having a good time shooting my show, and it's going very well so far. That's what I'm telling you. That's what I have to report. All right?

And be grateful. And don't worry about heaven and hell. Let's just assume it's a completely different consciousness or part of a different consciousness that's a bigger consciousness and we won't even register it we're already doing it we're already part of it it's already happening it's over and it's beginning holy god must be bullshit day it's truly an honor my friends truly a an honor and it was a tremendous joy to talk to the one and only Andrea Mark. You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well,

almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get an ice rink on Uber Eats, but iced tea and ice cream. Yes, we can deliver that Uber Eats. Get almost,

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A new original series streaming February 27th exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. Pardon. So you don't live here at all? You did live here. I lived here for 18 years, yeah.

And then you ran away? Kind of. You had enough? I'd had enough from the moment I got here, but I lasted for 18 years. Because I just had, who was just here? Jason Schwartzman was here. And he's like, I went to school with our kids. That's so cool.

Jason, he played my son. Did he tell you that? Oh, yeah. On a TV show, right? to school with her kids. That's so cool. Jason, he played my son. Did he tell you that? Oh, yeah. On a TV show, right? Yes, on a show. Right. Cracking up. Right.

That's right. Yeah, he did mention that. He's so talented. How's he doing? He seems well. He's an interesting guy. He is interesting. He's a very sweet man.

And yet kind of quirky, quirky. Very quirky. Seems genuinely curious about things yeah not much ego that i could detect interesting yeah like you know he seemed pretty much what he is i haven't interviewed a lot of the sctv people though i mean just you and katherine and ivan reitman wasn't really part of it but he was around right oh but ivan reitman gave me my first role in a movie called foxy lady in which I appeared semi-nude. Really?

Uh-huh. Has anyone clipped it on YouTube? You cannot find it. And I called Ivan to see if we could get it. And he said, it's down in the bowels of my basement. Nobody's seen it. It was his first film. And then Eugene Levy and I did a movie called Cannibal Girls that Ivan directed.

And we kind of improvised the entire thing. And we won the Best Actor and Actress Award at the International Horror Film Festival, which I always thought was a joke until one desperate, lonely, bad day. I thought, maybe there is that award, and I Googled it, and it still exists. And you have one.

I do. So you knew. So Ivan, like the Canadian thing, though, it's, but you're not from there. No, I'm from Maine. Maine. What part of Maine? Portland. You grew up in Portland, Maine.

I did. And that was a while back. I'm not. Okay. All right, relax. Gee, that hurt. No, just relax. I'm worried now because I'm wearing my glasses.

No, no. If I had makeup without glasses. You look beautiful. You look beautiful. You look great. But I can't imagine what Portland was like. Because I started doing comedy in that area. Oh, really? Where are you from?

Like regionally. In Boston is where I started doing comedy. You didn't go to Emerson, did you? No, but I have a lot of friends who went to Emerson. That's where I went. A lot of friends who went to Emerson. I didn't even know it was. Now I'm going to do it again.

Was it the same time? You didn't even know it was now I'm going to do it again was it the same type you didn't know it existed Mark if I hadn't traveled seven hours to get here I literally would be walking out the door yes Emerson's been around

for a long time in speech and communication but now it's like a crazy great but that's what I mean was it a you know like it seems like a lot of comedy

like there's specific programs for comedy and for sketch now i think when i went there you literally got a degree in speech and what was i gonna do with that with i got a degree in speech and drama but let's talk about maine for a minute yeah yeah maine is beautiful and in but what was your what was the family like do you have brothers and sisters i do have a brother and a sister i'm the oldest i grew up in an armenian household really armenian 100 aren't you you're near Glendale, aren't you? The hub of Armenian population. Yeah, that's either a good thing or a difficult thing. It depends how you're coming at

it. It's very insulated and you definitely feel in some, when you go to Glendale, it's sort of like, well, I'm an outsider here. Do you really? A little bit. Oh, I'm going to go if I need my self-esteem boosted. Do you speak Armenian? No. Huh. Now I'll really be ostracized. Is that a word? Yeah, sure.

Okay, good. But like Armenian, like what generation? My grandparents were born in Turkey. Yeah. And like many Armenians. And they were, during the genocide in 1915, they left. Got out. My grandfather did, yeah.

During the genocide in 1915, they left. My grandfather did, yeah, and migrated to Maine where there was the Red Cross that established a small safe enclave for Armenians. And my grandfather came. Then he brought my grandmother, who was 15 at the time. They had seven children. Very, very poor, extreme poverty. My father was Armenian. His parents died when he was 13, had no education, became a highly successful businessman with grocery stores and restaurants.

My mom had no education. And I think growing up and wanting to be an actress was as, but as far away as any reality, that generation of Armenians, they were born in Maine, right? And they just had to work for everything. Yeah. So what business did your father end up in? Grocery stores and restaurants. So you grew up in restaurants and grocery stores? I did. Did you work did your father end up in? Grocery stores and restaurants.

So you grew up in restaurants and grocery stores? I did. Did you work in restaurants? I worked in the grocery store. I wrapped produce for many, many summers. Couldn't have been more miserable. I'm sure.

Wrapping produce and singing Broadway tunes. I got to wash that man right out of my hair. You know, those are the days of American boy. Now I'm like Sophie Tucker.

Those were the days. I watched American bands stand all the time. Right. You're too the days of American boy. Now I'm like Sophie Tucker. Those were the days. I watched American Bandstand all the time. You're too young to know American Bandstand. I've seen tape. Yeah. Yeah. And so you were like this singing kid wrapping chickens. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And all the people in the neighborhood thought you were- Produce. They didn't let me near the poultry. Salmonella. But they let me near the produce. I could wrap a mean head of lettuce but was it like an intimate kind of like did you know everybody in the neighborhood i mean was it that small or was it already like because portland's a larger city in maine but it wasn't it's not huge

no it's not huge and i didn't know the community but i didn't really feel like i fit in you know i'm you know i'm armenian and they're but um i lots of friends, and I was the homecoming queen in spite of all of it. I was. Did you do theater in high school? I did, yes. My first professional show was when I was 13 in South Pacific. I played Liat. It was a New York touring company, and they had to cast small parts when they toured.

and they had to cast small parts in in in when they toured and so they gave me the part of Lee out because being in Armenia was the closest they were gonna get to a Polynesian princess and army in enough and that got me started yeah they were doing the singing yeah sing a singing but you know she she had to pantomime happy talk happy talk keep talking up Peter I still remember the choreography you do yeah I do do you could do the dance right now I could it wouldn't be effective

on radio but I appreciate not unless I grunt while I'm doing it damn it I used to be able to lift my leg fuck

so but so how do you get from Maine to you okay so you went to Emerson so you went to Boston and you'd convince

your parents that entertainment was a viable thing somehow. I don't think I ever convinced my parents, but because I made a living fairly early on. Doing performing. Being in the theater. Yeah. That I was self-supporting. After college or before college? I did summer stock in the summers.

And then when I went to college, I graduated from college in 1969. Oh, my God. Now I actually am Sophie Tucker. What is that song she sings? One of these days you're gonna miss me, honey. I graduated in 1969. I went directly to New York City. I got one of those industry newspapers called Show Business. There's two of them. Backstage is Show Business. And they have open calls. And for your listeners, that means if you're not part of the union equity, anybody can go to an open call.

But 69 must have been crazy. It must have been like, you know, they're just hippies. The culture is exploding. Everything's exciting. Not if you're a musical comedy. That remained the same for decades nothing has changed no but i was at tunnel vision right so i didn't wasn't really um paying attention to the culture at large not so much until i stage until i saw janice joplin in baltimore maryland most amazing you did i did and then she died two days later that's when i was doing you're a good man charlie brown and i was doing it in baltimore we were that was the first so where i went so i went

to audition i graduated in 69 i went to new york and two weeks later i was cast as lucy and you're a good man charlie brown and then i became part of that touring company we toured all over in 1970 i saw janice joplin in baltimore in 1970 and then very soon afterwards she died so you saw her that must have been astounding i've seen three live concerts in my life in your life that meant something to me okay and i'm gonna tell you what they are i'm ready janice joplin yeah bob dylan and bett midler really when did you see Bob Dylan in you know in that period in the 70s 70s yeah yeah and Bette Midler that I mean Bette Midler she she was at Massey Hall in Toronto I am friends with her yeah and Bob Dylan stayed in my home in Toronto when he was making a movie he did yeah and when I came back to the home, there were marijuana burns in every part of my quilt

that I never threw away because Bob Dylan burned them. So he was just smoking weed in bed. That's it. And the only albums that were out of my section of albums were his. No, come on. I swear to God. Sitting around listening to his own record smoking weed. Well, somebody was.

Well, I think that- I think a lot of people have done that in their lives, haven't they? Yeah. So how did Bob Dylan find his way to your house? I think that I must have, you know, I was traveling back and forth, and so Kathy Bates stayed there. I think I had a rent. It was a long time ago.

But I think I had some rental thing, renting it for a lot of money to very high profile people. It was a beautiful house. Oh, so you just, like, when you weren't there, they'd rent it out exactly yeah and bet middler where did you see her what no bet i knew oh my gosh i met through mark shaman and scott whitman and uh oh and i did gypsy with her that's right i did gypsy i did the the made for tv movie gypsy but when you saw her the first time yeah was it back in the 70s? Yes, yes, yeah. Extraordinary. She must have been just a force of nature. Amazing live performance.

No one ever been like her. No reason. She reinvented something. She did. Yeah. And no one has been like her because the audacity, the connection with the audience, and the tenderness with which she sang juxtaposed with a crazy, no holes barred, vulgar. I mean, there was never that kind of combination.

She was just beautiful. A great showman. Yes, menacing Semitic sexuality. That's good. I'll take it. Why doesn't somebody introduce me like that? As opposed to Perky. The Perky Andrea Martin.

Okay. That's fine. Okay, so you go from Maine, and then you go to Emerson, and you study speech was it very dry I mean was it like what is it what was the degree like there what was it like first I went to Stevens College in Missouri because I wanted to be very far away from home I got kicked out of Stevens College then I went to Emerson I wasn't very good being in Boston

so I went to the why um I don't know, actually. I guess I had my sights on something less New England-y. So I went to... It's too much like Maine, yeah. There you go. So then I went to Paris and I studied the Sorbonne my third year. Then I went back. For a year?

I did, yeah. What did you study there? French. Just French? Yes. No mime or anything? Mime came up later. It did. Somebody's read a book. No, I didn't read a book. How do you know mime? Whatime or anything? Mime came up later. It did.

Somebody's read a book. No, I didn't read a book. How do you know mime? What do you mean? Mime's from France. I did. I studied with Jacques Lecoq. You did?

That's not his real name. His real name is Reggie Lecoq. Okay, why? I did. I did. I went back. To Paris? Uh-huh.

To study mime? I did. I've always loved the circus. Really? So how old were you when you did that? Let me see. To study mime? I did. I've always loved the circus. Really? So how old were you when you did that? Let me see. Was that after college? I mean, you took time away to study mime.

That was after I graduated. I moved to Toronto, and then I took a year off to study mime. Yes. So you were always like, it was always staged with you. I mean, you were not looking to be a film actress. You wanted to be on stage. Yeah. I don't know if you grew up in Portland, Maine, and you think in that generation.

Now people grow up really with goals in sight. But when I was growing up in Portland, I didn't have goals like that. One thing just led to another. But movie stars seem like an easy fantasy to have. But you mean in terms of- I guess it wasn't my fantasy. I guess i didn't have a fantasy to be honest with you i just auditioned and then i got a part and then that

led to something else i know it sounds strange to talk like that yeah but honestly i do think that the general this generation yes really has attainable goals and at their hands because they know how to act they know how to actualize them. With all the social media, they can get an instant kind of thing. But that wasn't what my case was. But you wanted to perform. I did want to perform. I like performing and one thing led to another. But it wasn't like I woke up in the morning and thought, now let's see, in five years,

I hope I'm starring on Broadway. That's not what happened. Yeah. And then I think, actually, Mark, that my career might have been, I don't know, although I think I've had a good career, but maybe I would have done more if I actually had put goals in sight. But that's not how it's been. Yeah.

Do you have regrets like that? No. Yeah. I don't. I can't think that way. I really have. You drive me nuts. Enormous gratitude for still working.

Yeah. You're working a lot. I mean, you work constantly. Yeah. So, okay. drive me nuts enormous gratitude for still working yeah you're working a lot i mean you work constantly yeah so okay so you're you did summer stock before college and you're in college and you're already working and you're doing touring shows yeah so you're working actress yeah and you're performing in these what dinner theaters and whatnot then i came back to toronto yeah but wait how do we get to toronto when did that happen? Oh, because you're a good man, Charlie Brown. The boy played Linus was from Toronto and I played Lucy. So Lucy sleeping with Linus.

Right. Charles Schultz would have been mortified. But what happens on the back of a tour bus stays on the back of a tour bus. Then I, so I would go, I'd get my unemployment check in New York. I'd go, I went back to New York after the tour. Didn't like New York. I went back to New York after the tour. Didn't like New York. Very scared there. Felt like I was just a real small fish in a very big pond. This is like 1970?

Yeah, yeah, 1970. It's a little dicey in New York then. A little bit. Yeah. A little bit. It's scary. And so I'd cash my unemployment check for $78. And that's how much it used to cost to go from New York to Toronto.

I remember that price. $70? $78. The price? Yes, exactly the cost of my unemployment check. And I go and visit him. I love Toronto. It's a great city.

I did. And so I stayed there for 18 years. My book is dedicated to Canada, to Canada where it all began, my career, my marriage, my children, Justin Bieber. It all began there. But you didn't marry that guy.

I didn't marry Justin Bieber. No, he's very young. But you do talk about dating a younger man for a while. That's true. So you're in Toronto, but you didn't marry Linus. I didn't marry Linus, no. But you hung out with Linus, and you consider your show business career

starting in Canada, really. I do consider that, yeah. And what was the first thing? The very first thing I did was Godspell with... This is a big show. Legendary company of Godspell. Yeah, this changed a lot of people's lives. It really did.

So here's the cast. Marty Short, Eugene Levy, Gilda Radner. Paul Schaefer was our music director. Victor Garber was our Jesus. That's crazy. Yeah, it's crazy. How all of those, these primary people have gone on to such amazing careers. And all still good friends. Then we went

on to SCTV together. Garber wasn't in that though. No, but he's a really, really, because one of my closest friends. We talk every day. He's an interesting guy. I don't know anything about him, but I think he's a great actor. Great human being too. Yeah. Wonderful. we're all very close we just did a spread in vanity fair eugene victor myself and marty an excerpt from his book and so it was like all of us how how we were still friends it's beautiful picture so i can't imagine you all as kids because you're kind of kids at that time yeah just like i can't like you and marty with just that energy combined at you know in your 20s yeah it must have been fucking crazy. Well, we certainly had energy.

And we still have energy. Yes, you do. Yeah, we do. It's amazing. Yeah. We still talk about that all the time. And Gilda was Canadian. Gilda was from Detroit.

Right. But she moved up there. To do Second City? Now, that is a good question. Marty would be able to tell you because Marty dated her. Why did she come up to Toronto? And that's what Catherine O'Hara saw that show and it changed her life, right? That's right. So how does that...

What are the opportunities that come out of that Godspell show? Gosh, well for me there were many. I really never stopped. Like right at the beginning? Right at the beginning. So I think I did Foxy Lady with Ivan Reitman. I did a variety show with Lorne Michaels and Hart Pomerantz. All right, what was that called?

The Hart and Lorne Terrific Hour. I'm a little obsessed with Lorne. So tell me. No, no. I mean, I can't imagine him as a young man. Now, a lot of people don't know that he was doing comedy and variety before he became this mythic mogul or whatever the hell, this inspiration, this Buddha,

this larger-than-life person. And Presario. Yes. He was like Diaghilev, too. Yeah. So what was that show? So that was a sketch show. The Hardin-Lorne Terrible.

Terrific Hour. Terrific Hour. Sorry. That's funny. It was like many variety shows in that time. You know, Robert Klein had a variety show. David Steinberg had a variety show. So what was it?

And then Laugh-In. So they were kind of like. So it was sort of that format. That format. But it was Canadian. Exactly. So they were co-hosting it. They were a comedy team.

Yep. Pardon Lauren. They were a comedy team. And they throw to sketches. That's exactly right. And when you met Lorne Michaels at that time, what was your impression of him? Somebody

serious with a great business sense who wasn't necessarily funny, but understood it. So he was the straight man, I'm taking it? Yes. That was a very diplomatic answer. So I'm still have hopes of being on Saturday Night Live before I'm dead. I don't want to.

Do you maintain a relationship with that guy? You know, I haven't seen him for many years, but he's so connected to so many of my friends. I feel like he is in my life, but I actually haven't seen him. Was it a point of contention that you were never on SNL? Were you brought in? Were you considered? Was there early on? There might have been a consideration.

I don't really understand it. You know, I was thinking the other day, what would be, what are two, because everybody asks you, you know, what haven't you done that you would still like to do? And I'm always like, don't ask me that. I should have been. Why didn't I know? But, you know, I was thinking the other day, what are two things

that I would like to do before I die? And one is to be involved in Saturday Night Live just in some way, a sketch, host, whatever, and to go back and do another

David Letterman show because I did so many of them in the past. Yeah. I'd love to get an opportunity one more time before he goes off the air. Well, you should get that. Yeah. I'd love to get an opportunity one more time before he goes off the air. Well, you should get that.

Yeah. Tell him. Let's talk. Let's make a call. I mean, those are small little things, but it feels like they need to have closure,

I guess. Yeah, but I think he should be able to do that for you. We'll see what happens. Wait, I mean. Now that I'm on your show, I have some cachet.

Everything's going to turn around after this, Andrea. I have some cachet everything's going to turn around after this Andrea I have some hip cachet look it I had an opening last night of Pippin I'm talking to you

I have a book out I'm about to start a movie night in a music look it's a lovely time in my life it's great but I had to switch gears at a certain point Mark

I had to really when I reached 65 I'm 67 now because I was saying no to a lot of things and it wasn't bringing me any joy and who the hell cared if i was so you think people out there are like oh andrea martin said no to that career offer nobody gives a shit what i'm doing that's another thing that really keeps you sane every time you think somebody's thinking about you trust me they got other things to think about. Oh, my God.

100%. So that was a relief, reassuring, you know. So at 65, I just jumped on the S train. I said, life is too short. And what am I going to do? Reinvent myself at 67? That would be interesting. Am I going to pick the right career?

Am I going to pick the right project that now proves to everybody? No. First of all, nobody's looking for proof. Second of all, let me just keep working and making myself happy, making a few people happy. But you don't feel like you've made your mark on some level? On some level, I do for sure. But I'm also a realist. I know what it takes to sell a book. I know that I'm not on a hit TV show. Do I know that Amy Poehler and Marty and Neil Patrick Harris and Alan Cum Harris and Alan Cumming and Lena Dunham who have fabulous shows on the air and are highly visible are

going to sell more books? You bet. I did my one person show. I'm glad it doesn't bother you. What am I going to do? Nothing. It frustrates me. I wouldn't be talking about you on the air. I wouldn't be taking your precious time talking about my pretend like it doesn't bother me diatribe but like okay so let's go back to to like these defining times because like in sctv for a lot of my generation for people that come to it later for like for people who are who

have been on snl or people who've been in movies like yourself i mean this was a fucking amazing show and how did that sort of happen so you did the two movies with ivan reitman you did godspell you did a uh what'd you do a bid on lauren show uh like it was one show you know i can't remember how many i did actually because i was doing a lot of the variety was really big in that in that era era the 70s. So I was on Robert Klein's show. I was on David Steinberg's show. And was Robert Klein in Canada? He did his show out of Canada. No, no, no.

He did it. My gosh. Thank you. He did it out of where I think Saturday Night Live is on NBC, that studio. Right. I don't know why, but I was on his show. David Steinberg was out of Toronto. Right.

Because he's Canadian. Oh, gosh. David Steinberg was out of Toronto. Right. Because he's Canadian. Oh, gosh. I did so many of those things with Dick Cavett and Alan King and all those wonderful. John Stewart, when he was just starting out.

And Bob, what is his name? Bob. He now does sports announcing. Costas? Oh, Bob Costas. Yeah. Yeah. They all had talk shows that had a lot of people and variety on them. And SCTV was big.

And so, yes, I've been with some great people because of SCTV, for sure. Well, how did SCTV start? So out of Second City. So after I'd done a lot of theater in Toronto and dinner theaters, you're right, and musicals, there were auditions for Second City. Someone asked me to audition. Gilda was doing it then. Was it when the Second City opened in Toronto? Yes, it was the second company.

Right. Gilda and I'm going to get all these names wrong. Brian Doyle Murray, I think Bill Murray, Dan Aykroyd were part of the first company. Okay. I'm sure I've got some names wrong and forgive me out there, but I know Gilda was. Yeah. Because I remember seeing her when i was in the audience john i don't i don't know if john was in there he was in the company i was in yeah yeah

all right so the so when they started in in toronto yeah those are the murray brothers and gilda yeah and uh who was the other one dan akroyd yeah so they were the ones you remember yeah yeah yeah yeah and i remember sitting in the audience and watching Gilda, and I'd never seen anybody that could do that physical comedy and be so feminine. She just reminded me of Lucille Ball. I'd never seen anybody that could do that. Yeah. It was extraordinary.

And this was after you worked with her. After Godspell. After Godspell, you got it, yeah. But that was all scripted. That was all scripted. But this was real sketch, and she would get to be her own personality. She didn't have to fit into any groove. It was magical, really, to see that.

Yeah. Yeah. Like seeing Janice? Yeah. A little bit lower, less drugs involved, I think. Sure. Sure, but just like, oh my God, this person's a force, and there's nobody like her. Did it inform me?

You're absolutely right. I guess in some way it was different, because Janis Joplin had nothing to do with my world. She was a rock musician, but Gilda was a comedian. And so I probably felt pangs of competition or maybe excitement or let me get a stab at this. So I did audition for it. But first you did, you actually just did live stuff at the company. Yeah, yeah. And that was mostly improv or mostly sketch or as a mixture of stuff so the the format of second city is always a scripted show and then the last half

hour is improv and that improv turns into the next scripted show and that's how it works and how many of the characters that you like of the dozens you do yeah like which one was there all the way through edith prickly was there all the way through because of catherine o'hara yeah so we had a a um one night there was a suggestion from the audience that we do a parent teacher conference in which the parents were parents of delinquent kids and we said okay so we ran backstage and the idea of second city is to bring in clothes from Salvation Army or home or whatever and have them back there as a closet for characters. Catherine had brought in her mother's faux leopard skin jacket and hat from the 50s. And it was back there amongst all the clothes. But I saw the leopard when I thought of delinquent kids.

All right, parents. And I put it on and put on the hat. And I found some black rimmed glasses. And there was some red lipstick that I smeared on. I didn't even know who the character was. Right. And I knocked on the teacher door, the door of the teacher's conference. And Catherine was a teacher.

And she opened the door. And she said, hello, you must be Mrs. Prickley. And I said, that's right, dear. Edith's the name. Sebastian's the game. And then Catherine reminds me that she tried different names every week but Mrs. Prickly was the one that stuck that stuck yeah that's hilarious yeah and like when you were like so you didn't know Catherine until you're on

in the in the troop right and she's Catherine's a lot younger so um I think she's eight years younger than I am so I didn't I we didn't travel in the same circle. Because the two of you together is hilarious. I love her. Because there's two different types of this comic energy. All of you have. That's the thing that you can't really. I can't put my finger on, really, or wrap my brain around.

If I ask actors, well, what is your process? I don't fucking know. Is that what they say? Well, I mean, ultimately, you're going to train, you can do this, you can do that. But it's going to come from, it's all serving whatever's inside of you. That is sort of unexplainable. But like as time goes on and it seems like people that come from Second City and people that come from that kind of background doing several characters, that there's some sort of weird constant. There's some sort of weird constant.

There's this comedic spirit that exists and that you can always sort of see with any of them, with Gilda, with you, with Catherine, with Flaherty even, and like Candy. Like there's this force that just lives on stage. I think that's right. I think it's cellular. And I think it's like a little giggle that's inside that's always wanting to burst open. Right. It's always kind's always wanting to burst open. Right. It's always kind of titillating. Yeah.

And with that combination of people, we brought those little giggles out. That sounds so sophomoric to say giggles. But I feel like it's like Alka-Seltzer. It's like constantly fizzing away. Okay, and now this person's going to make it really come to the top. Yeah, yeah. That's how we served one another. Everyone fizzles at a different level.

That's right. But we were helping each other's fizzle f the top. Yeah, yeah. That's how we served one another. Everyone fizzles at a different level. That's right. But we were helping each other's fizzle fizzle. Yeah. So who in that cast? So it was you and Catherine and John came. Candy was there? Yes, for sure. And it's weird to me that there's this history of large personalities that come out of Second City, you know, like Belushi or...

Chris Farley. Chris Farley. But it's almost like they cast him. Where's our big guy? I know. But, you know, John, I think... What's so tragic about John's death, besides that he's not here,

is that I really think his career would have expanded. Sure. He was a beautiful, dramatic dramatic actor and I can only imagine that at one time he wouldn't be big that he would be on a diet or lose weight he'd still and it's not like he had to rest on being overweight no no that wasn't what right yeah but he was the personality oh for sure everything was big about John yeah yeah yeah yeah and he was like that when he was a kid. Like when you knew him. I mean, you guys

are in your 20s. John Candy was exactly the person you think he is. Yeah. Is who he was. Right. There's no filter.

Yeah. Just everything you can imagine about John is who he was. Yeah. And you loved him. Loved him. Yeah. So sad.

Loved him. Yeah. I loved all all of the you know we're very close we we katherine was at pippin last night marty was eugene's kid eugene levy's kids because he was in toronto um kath marty's kids uh you know we're we're um very connected still yeah very i don't hear that a lot you know. Because I'm sort of, as a fan and as somebody who's sort of isolated, I always make these assumptions that like, oh, you're still in touch with Sosa. They're like, no, I haven't talked to them in a while. You know, like that happens a lot.

You make these assumptions because of the emotions you've invested in somebody's work with other people or, you know what I mean? Yeah. Like you just want everybody to be pals. Well, I think we are. You know what I mean? Like you just want everybody to be pals. Well, I think we are.

I just did a book signing at Santa Monica Library, and Marty was there as my special guest. And then I was talking about something, and Marty said, well, why don't you ask Catherine? I said, Catherine? And Catherine was in the back row. And then she came up, and then we started. You know, it's, oh my gosh. Jarring memories.

It's beautiful. You know, we see each other my gosh. Jarring memories. It's beautiful. You know, we see each other a lot. So it's not like anything has to be jarred. Believe me. You know, I know, we know everything that's going on in everybody's lives. And, you know, we hang out. Yeah. All right.

So out of the stage show. Yeah. Whose ideas is, who brings the TV show together? Oh, gosh. Okay. I believe that it was Joe and Harold Ramis and Andrew Alexander, a wonderful

producer. They called us all in and we brainstormed what the show should be. They sold it to the CBC, Canadian Broadcasting Company. We did it there and then NBC bought it. I know everything as I'm saying to you right now is factually incorrect

because I'm so bad. I like that you're saying it with confidence. Oh, 100%. Yeah. And a loud projection. 100% factually incorrect. Completely.

But I'm going to continue because something in there is the truth. Sure. And you know that I mean well. Yeah. Okay.

That's all that's important. She means well. Kind of got some of the facts for her. But all right. So you do how many seasons? How many shows? Seven years we did.

Jeez. Yeah. Because I remember watching it when I was a kid. Yeah. And it was like exotic somehow. Was it? Yeah. Where were you living?

New Mexico. When you were watching it on TV? Yeah. So it must have been on NBC, I guess then. Late. That's very unusual for... Were you in the music world? No, I was a kid.

But, wow. I was a big comedy fan. Oh, big comedy fan. Yeah. Okay. So, because most people were either in New York or Los Angeles that watched the show that late, or they were musicians doing drugs, or I guess comedy fans. Judd Apatow, I don't know if you're the same age, but he was a big fan when he was a young kid too, because he loved comedy.

Exactly. And my parents used to let me watch, stay up to watch SNL. So like, I don't even remember where it fell on the schedule. Was it actually after SNL? Yeah. Right. Yeah. So it was like this weird thing. Like one to two thirds, some insane yeah yeah yeah was lauren a part of that bringing it to the states or no no no nbc that was brandon tartikoff's years he was great and um i don't know how all the you know the inner workings right happened but we were on nbc and then we were in edmonton and and now people still laugh at that my kids laugh at the at the scene so that makes me feel good and when you guys are all working now it was the writing process a group writing process how did it work was it like you because you had the world the world was this network yeah the world

and there were there were characters that were there every week yeah in one form or another but everybody was coming in with these different characters so was there this process of like i have a new character i I have a new impression. Why can we integrate this person into this? And how did it work? Sometimes it worked like that. And sometimes scenes were generated and then we had to create characters. Sometimes scenes were written and we had no idea who we were playing.

And it wasn't until a wig was on our head and the costume was delivered by Jewel Hallmeyer that we knew who the character was. Sometimes we'd have the wig, costume, and the scene in the chair and still didn't know what we were doing until another fellow cast member would say, why don't you try it with a lisp? Or why don't you, yeah. It was an enormously, enormously collaborative experience.

And I don't, I mean that in every morsel of the word. Everybody contributed. The cameramen, if they had an idea, we listened to it. The catering people, why don't you try Mrs. Prickley? Why not? We were in a little creative bubble and nobody was wrong. You know, we just took, anything that made us laugh, I think was in the show right 90 minutes right yeah yeah so it was it's interesting though like at that time that you guys started doing second city i

mean where were the where were the murray brothers had he gone to new york already i mean how did that work did you remain friends with him brian or either of them or bill murray um you know i saw brian d'amore at at Harold Ramis' funeral, sadly. There were a lot of, a reunion for a lot of people. I haven't seen Bill for a while, but he was a guest on our show. I didn't really know Bill. Brian, I knew a little bit better. Right, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I'd done a movie with Brian Dormoree, Club Paradise. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So we'd hung out in Jamaica for many weeks. Yeah. Yeah, so yeah, okay. We all knew each other after that yeah yeah and and so okay so after you do seven seasons of that yeah like a lot of them that what what what happened where was your career when john's career was really

taking off john's career really was taking off more than other people he really, you know, he just, I don't know, he loved the business. He loved having a business sense, creating parts, always had his finger in different pies, or always surrounded by people. I didn't even know what an entourage was. Now I understand that's what was around him. Always people in his office, in his rooms, and people in his car that were just, you know, the taxi driver. Now he's his assistant. It was like a world. You know, he just was, just celebrated joy. What can I tell you? The galaxy of John. The galaxy of John. What a great way to put it. Yeah. So John's career was certainly with John Hughes, I think, was really on his way.

And then we were moving to LA. We were all moving to LA. Everybody. Yeah. And then people started working in different things like Club Paradise that Eugene was in and Rick and myself. Was that the first movie? Your first movie here?

I want to say the first movie I did here was called Holy Moses, but I could be wrong. I remember. Wait, was that with Richard Pryor? I can't remember. Lorraine Newman was in it. Yeah. Yeah. Why do I think that?

That was a weird movie. The first movie I did in the United States, no, was a movie called Soup for One. And I can't even remember who was in it. Wait, here we go. Okay. I can look right here. Good. Actually, Holy Moses was at who was in it. Wait, here we go. Okay. I can look right here. Good. Actually, Holy Moses was at least shot in 1980.

1980. Okay, that's right. Okay. And Super 1. Yeah, that was, oh, I remember Holy Moses. Okay. It's a Dudley Moore movie. Okay.

Right. Oh, what a weird cast. Look at these guys. James Coco, Jack Gifford, Don DeLuise, John Houseman. Was that a Mel Brooks movie? No. Directed by Alan Metter. Yeah. And Richard Pryor played Pharaoh. I kind of remember. I was a tiny little part in it.

So you probably didn't even like half these people. No, I didn't. I wasn't with anybody. Right. Interesting. All right. Then Soup for One happens in 82. Okay. There you go. That's making sense. Is it? I had a son in 81, a son in 83. Then I was a mom, mom, mom, mom, mom. We moved back to Toronto. Wait, who'd you marry? I married Bob Dolman, who's a writer, who wrote Far and Away, and he wrote...

Still Around? Yeah, yeah, yeah. What is that darling movie? I can't believe... Ron Howard directed All Little People. Why can't I remember the name of that movie? Was it Over the Rainbow? No, no. Now you got to look it up because we have to say the right thing.

Ron Howard... Willow, Willow. Oh, yes. Yeah. And he wrote a sitcom for Showtime called Poison that I was in. I had my own series, very limited for a while. That's right. I remember that. What was that called? Roxy.

Yeah. So you were doing all the things. I was doing things, but it was a time that I was bringing up my kids. So you were focused on being a mom. I was focused on in between and that was not great. But you liked being a mom? I did. But when I was a mom, I was slightly restless and when I was working, I was slightly guilty. So it was never a great, great mix

until they went to college. The kids turned out okay? The kids were great. And when they went to college, I said, okay, now I can really focus. When did the marriage fall apart? Marriage fell apart in maybe when they were three and five. Oh, really?

Early? Yeah. Oh. But we're still friends. were three and five. Oh, really? Early? Yeah. Oh. But we're still friends. Are you? Yes. God, yeah. Our oldest son just got married two weeks ago in Sonoma. We were there together. And he just called me yesterday, you know, two days ago. He's in Sweden teaching a screenwriting class right now. But he called me and said, hey, I saw your article in the LA Times. Congratulations. Oh, you were always friends from the get-go of the divorce? It was painful, but we always put the kids first. Never was there animosity.

That is really the truth. But it was painful, sure. Right. But there's no animosity. There's no animosity. It's different, I guess, when you have kids. Because you've got to be there for the kids. I don't know if everybody does that, but it was certainly a priority for us.

And that must have helped them out, the kids. You know, that's a very interesting question. Actually, I don't know if it does. I wonder if the desire to keep something together or intact when it's not intact gives a false message of hope. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah, I wonder if people that just say listen this is final we're not going to have christmases together we're not going to pretend we're a family because we're not we're divorced i don't know if

that's like if the kids understand why their parents aren't together like you know like of course they're not together how could they be together but if there's still this diplomacy yeah yeah yeah yeah then it's sort of like, why aren't you guys? 100%. And I don't know if we could even describe why, but it didn't work out. Yeah, but if everybody's... I don't know.

It's an interesting thing. The thing that I got the most from writing this book was that after all that's said and done, it's authenticity that trumps all. The people that I'm the most attracted to, and I mean people at Starbucks serving me coffee, if I can see that they're really comfortable in their own skin and what they're giving you is who they really are, you want want to hang out with them and i found after writing this book i couldn't be i didn't know how to fabricate anything i was like gee shouldn't i make this more interesting i i just had to this is whether you like it or not there's funny there's not so funny it's just who i am i just

it was that was a gratifying thing for me. Sure. Yeah. And I think that like, a lot of times the people who are authentic aren't necessarily comfortable in their own skin, but they can't help but be themselves. That's good. I like that.

Yeah. You know, because I've been- No, and I find that charming when they say, you know what? I couldn't be less comfortable,

but at least I'm telling you that. Yeah, exactly. No, I love, that's a great thing. I was talking to a young kid who was auditioning for something. I'm just really nervous. I said, you know what? I'd go in and I'd just say, I'm really nervous, but here's what I got for you.

I don't know. I find it refreshing when people do that. Do you? I mean, I don't know. I'm that guy. You are? Yeah, I can't. Even when I'm hiding emotions, it makes it worse.

If I'm hiding anger, it seems like the effect of it is even worse than if I just get angry. Because then people are like, what's going on? Why is he? He's better off just saying it. But it's weird because we live in a culture, and I think it speaks a little bit to careerism in general and looking back and being more decisive is that there is this kind of premium put on, you know, kind of pretending like you have your shit together. Is there? A little bit.

There's like, you know, positivity, which I find completely annoying. Like people who are like, you know, fuck you, I'm positive. That didn't sound very positive. You know, but there is this sense that wow i because i after talking to so many people in here yeah yeah there's this idea that you know everything's moving so fast everybody's so preoccupied with so many things that if somebody is either in pain or or painfully authentic or or seems to be a heavy burden emotionally even in small interactions yeah there's this idea that's sort of like i gotta you know i got no time for this you know i that you know i hope it works out for you and

and it's always sort of upset me that there is this there's it's not even repression it's just this decision that you know this stays inside this comes out and i we all make those decisions here's what i believe it is and you tell me if you if this resonates for you i believe um it's a question of intimacy i think what what what by the way i'm holding my phone as i talk about intimacy thank god i'm not checking my emails yeah i think um with all of social media and with thinking you're missing out on something if you're not checking every second what it disallows is settling in the moment and really connecting on an intimate level and i think when someone's in pain it requires of you an intimate connection and i think people one don't know how to do it yeah

and two they're frightened of their own lack of ability to be intimate. That's what I think. That's interesting. I don't know if that's, it's, you know, you have to practice things. That's right. And if you're constantly thinking, okay, now let me see. I've got to return that. Oh, my God. And then did anybody tweet about the show last night?

Look at, I went on a few weeks ago. I was in San Francisco doing the Pippin. And the theater asked me to sign on instagram and i didn't even know what that was so i said all right okay and so i'm on instagram and now i'm like insanely addicted to it like documenting my every move so for in like the first hour i got 200 followers or whatever the hell it was and then i said you know literally my life is too fucking short i'm not gonna do this anymore this is insane like I'm walking down the street I'm on Market Street and I'm like oh maybe what if I put myself in front of the Godiva chocolates I can manipulate a photo and then I can

think of a saying should I eat the chocolate I'm thinking what a waste of time how about if I God forbid called my sister and said how are you you? Tell me how you're doing. You know, so that's what I think you get really caught up in. Well, I'm telling you, man, social networking platforms for people who need validation are a little bit narcissistic. It's like cancer. Oh, my God, it is. It is. It's just going to eat you up.

But how about, though, when you sign contracts now, from what I hear i hear for network shows they actually have in the contracts and we want you to twitter a tweet is that what you said they learned their lesson yeah it's weird because like is that true am i am i fabricating that okay because like a lot of times like when you do like something like this which is you know primarily computer-based like that like everything's integrated yeah so a lot of times when people, you know, they want you to do something to bring more people to their thing. You know, that's, I mean, that's sort of the nature of a movie anyways, but, but like a lot of times, like people might even hire you or ask you to do something with it being unspoken that you're going to, you know, self-promote. So I

guess in a contractual sense that if somebody has some juice on Twitter or juice in general, you know, they don't want to go with the assumption they want to say like well you're going to do this if we do this as part of the promotion thing so you are your own publicity machine and they it's it is a little crazy what happens if you don't do it and by the way i don't know none of my friends disappear but is it true what i don't have one close friend katherine marty eugene none of them have facebook twitter accounts no facebook no really i swear to god that they wouldn't know how to i don't even know how to get how to do it no i'm telling you that's it i sometimes it's generational but facebook generally for like my mother's on facebook so like it's a

way that people share pictures and things with the family far away. Like there is a use for that. Is it? I don't know about that. Can't you just send them through the mail? The mail? You mean like in an envelope? Yeah.

I don't know when that's happening. You can email them. You can scan them and email them. That might work. Think how exciting it would be. Let's take one second. If a postman came up to you, a mailman, and delivered a letter, just think about this. With a picture in it?

Yeah. No, I like that. It's nice. It's a little outdated, but it's nice. And I'm not saying that from my own point of view. I'm just saying that to answer your question, I think that to you know, to really engage with these things, it requires maintenance. It requires time. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It requires maintaining a presence. And if you're not compulsive about it or needy enough to feel like you have to, like that feeling you had with Instagram, that has to drive everything in your life. That weird sort of, and then I'm going to do the thing. Oh, I just got an idea. I'm going to tweet it. But the flip side of it is you, if it isn't enough to think you're a failure every second, that's completely emphasized. I'm not doing enough.

If I don't take a, okay, now I'm walking into Starbucks. What if I took a picture of me with a guy selling me my latte? That would be funny. Then trying to think of how to be funny around that. And oh my God. And not get paid for it. Do all for free oh my gosh be a genius

and provide that content for nothing just because like i want people to see me is it or do you think it pays off what do you think well for like i think really yeah i really want to know i'd love to know the the nitty-gritty of what you're getting back my personal experience is that it enables me you know when you're at a level of of whatever i'm at you know i'm not a big star but you know i have a thing going so if i'm going to tour or i'm going to do a date or i'm going to promote a podcast like your podcast it it enables me, like Twitter specifically, enables a very quick tap-in to people that are my fans. So if I say I'm going to be in Minneapolis, I can't really count on my notoriety to sell tickets.

I can't really count on the club, their website. Who the fuck's going to go to a club website? So you're really thinking, hopefully I'll do a local radio show. i'll promote it on my podcast and i'll tweet it a bunch of times how many people do you have on your twitter account like 400 000 so that it would seem to me really pay off right that makes sense i have 22 maybe two of those people are going to be in minneapolis i mean you know it was seriously because I wasn't on it for three years. I guess I got to get back on. So it does require diligence. It does require sort of like, you know, posting funny things and getting people that you know who are who are also have Twitter followers. You know,

there is a process to it. But it pays off. You can see a bit. It can pay off if you you were diligent and you maintain the relationship. But like anything else, everyone's got a feed. They follow a thousand people. So you're going to tweet a little thing and maybe they'll see it or maybe it'll run down their feed. It's ridiculous, but I do think it makes a difference. But then there are some times where I could announce something on the podcast. I can do a radio show in town.

I could tweet it for a week. I could do local television. And then a week later, someone go like, I know you're in Chicago. I'm like a radio show in town. I could tweet it for a week. You know, I could do local television. And then a week later, someone go like, I know you're in Chicago. I'm like, what do I got to do? You want me to come over? You want me to email you? This is so funny.

I'm in at the beautiful Fairmont Hotel in San Francisco. Yeah. Literally had been on two morning talk shows. Pippin was about to open. There was stuff everywhere. Just met at the San Francisco bookshop to do my book.

Yeah. And I got in the elevator and the guy said, well, are you retired? Are you still acting? I'm like, no. Long thing to say. Seriously, what do you have to do?

So this is what else I've learned. That, wow, you can't take yourself seriously. It is something else. Because what are you going to do? It's weird, though, because back in the day, when there were three TV networks and there were primary radio shows in every market, there were more people on the same page.

No one can dictate what the hell anyone's doing for entertainment or how they're spending their time. I mean, with the computer, how the hell do you know? When the media landscape was more intimate, it was a lot easier to consolidate attention. That's absolutely right. And it's very tricky now.

And it can be even somebody, like I came to Twitter later. I don't do Facebook at all. And I find it annoying. But like for me, it's like, I don't do Facebook at all, and I find it annoying. But for me, it's like, I don't want to do this. What do I care? And then you realize no one's going to do it for you. Yeah.

I guess you can hire people to do it. Right, but even then, you can, but it's weird. You have to, you know, in the world of theater and Broadway shows and stuff, I think that there is somewhat of a built-in audience. There are people that love that. Yeah. So the people that they're going to market to

are the people that would love to see that. But like in a general sense, you know, it's really on you. I mean, because, you know,

like if you really think about it, what, it's going to be in, it's going to be in the free weekly. You know, what year is it? You know, you want to do an interview

for the free weekly what the thing that people might read in the coffee shop who the hell knows how people get their fucking information true yeah and you can't predict what's going to be successful and what isn't going to be so what's the answer to all of this in my day they would say what's it all about i think you know what is it stay busy that's it. That's Marty Short always says that. Work begets work. Sure. And nobody cares.

It used to be, I don't know, maybe that's a wrong move and people are going to think that. Number one, no, that's not happening. Keep busy. I think that's good. Well, yeah. I think when you're younger and you got a lot of people talking in your ear and about how they're going to design your career and what they think you should and shouldn't do it gets to a point after a certain age where you're like can i just make a living please i'd like to have insurance if that's possible i prefer not to die alone if we can make that happen oh my god that's so true

wait we want so they've just been dwindled down to the basic thing. Maybe if I could have a dinner with a family member once a year. Yeah, that'd be good. It's not, you know, really, if my kids could call, I don't want to impose, but if you might be able to just check in once a month. That'd be nice. Oh my God, that's so true. But it's weird because when you're in the career that we're in, which are very selfish and self-driven and has a lot to do with ego,

I think we don't like, and I'm saying this with a heavy heart in a sense, that a lot of that stuff drifts away because you're looking, I used to do this joke about how it took me a long time to realize that Hollywood wasn't my parents. That joke still works. Of course it does because there's something really childish about this idea of that type of validation you know i'm going to come out i'm going to be everyone's going to love me yeah yeah and then after a certain point there's there's a

heartache to it but but i i think in in returning back to what we were talking about earlier about life yeah is that there's no way to avoid that yeah I mean, you can temper that, but that joy that you're able to experience in a genuine way comes from that realization that it all is a little heartbreaking and there is disappointment, but the truth of the matter is is that if you don't let it consume you, it's very humbling and it makes you appreciate things more.

It does. And the other, and we just add one thing to that, not that I can practice it, but the times that I've had absolutely no expectations about anything. Right. Always have been the best. Sure. Or when you genuinely don't give a fuck. How about that?

When does that ever happen? It happens occasionally. Rarely. When it does, it's the best place to be. I can't even take how beautiful that is. It's the best thing. You know what? Do you like it? Good. Yeah. Whatever. You don't. Rarely. When it does, it's the best place to be. I can't even take how beautiful that is. It's the best thing. You know what? Do you like it?

Good. Yeah. Whatever. You don't. I don't care. You get up here and fucking do it. That's where I go. Really?

Because everybody's got an opinion. That's what I love. Yeah. No, you're so right. When you don't, when you don't care. But what if you have, but I'm going to do the more Buddhist approach, which is to let go of expectations of hope, despair, disappointment, whatever it is.

Maybe I'm going to fail. Maybe I'm going to be successful. If you just, well, it's, doesn't it always come down to this? You know, but okay. Here's the quote. Being in the moment. See, now I feel like this interview. Yeah.

And maybe that's your, maybe that's a huge skill set that you have you're able to really make this so in the moment i'm never i'm never looking at you thinking he's thinking what he's going to ask me next he's glancing i don't have any questions no no it's beautiful you're you're really you're and that's great so i'll leave here thinking that was a nice way to spend how long we've been talking an hour or so there you go. But see, but this adds up to me because like, you know, in however you judge yourself, I mean, you found, you know, the most success on stage. And that, there's nothing more in the moment than that. True.

I mean, that is it. Yeah. And no matter what anybody thinks about the, you know, the nature of Broadway shows or what theater is or isn't anymore or what it used to be who the fuck knows the truth of the matter is if you're in a hit show yeah people are gonna come see it yeah that's it yeah so the but and and the bottom line is that you know every night's gonna be different you know whether you know the lines or not there's an immediate connection and and and in it doesn't matter if you've done it a hundred times i would imagine yeah that like every audience is that that juice is going to be there.

Yeah. And you can feel it at different levels. So there's nothing more present than that. That's right. So it seems to me that somebody with your personality, you've really hit the perfect thing. Oh, that's so great. Whether you appreciate it all the time or not. I do.

Because what the fuck is a movie? You're going to spend six months in a trailer to be in something that might not even make it to fucking theaters? I mean, how is that anything but torture? People love it, though. Of course. Steve Martin can be in his trailer and write an entire play in between takes. Oh, my God. I actually have a thing in my book about multitasking how when I was doing 30 Rock I said okay today I'm actually going to

try to write a chapter in my book while I'm in the trailer even though I know in one second I've got to go out and you know what I couldn't do it because I was saying I got to learn my lines what if I don't know my lines I know I couldn't stop and why did I get on this thing but you're that kind of person because you because you you you got on this thing because some people love the the sort of painstaking work of sitting around all day waiting to shoot a scene. That's right.

Wow, so not for me. Yeah, but that's because that's not the kind of people we are. Would that drive you crazy? Yeah, I don't know what the hell to do with myself. How many times can you masturbate? Wow, this has been going well.

You used the M word right at the end. Oh, my gosh. Could you do that in a trailer? Wow. That's okay. Of course you can do it anywhere. You don't want to do it in public. But, I mean, you can generally tuck away somewhere and find a place to do that.

But, I mean, like if I'm in a trailer, it's sort of like, I'm going to go over the craft service table again. I wonder what kind of snacks they have. Exactly. A hundred percent. And you know they're not going to be good. No. No, but you're going to eat them. A hundred percent.

You're going to be like, I'm not going to eat the chocolate and the nuts. And then like two hours later, you're like, oh, it's a little chocolate. And then like at the end of the shoot, you're 10 pounds heavier. You're like, what the fuck happened? Oh my God. It's so true. Oh my God. We're the same person.

Oh, geez. Well, at least a sitcom, though, you can approximate a family because you are playing a family you're in a family and also live sitcoms i think like i have no experience with it but i know for myself and i think this speaks also to the idea of authenticity is that you know like either you're that kind of you know you're a person that kind of needs to be engaged and and you know like needs to be thinking about stuff and driving yourself crazy you know because like there's something about like if you got a noisy brain like that, if you're an anxious fucking like,

you know, needy person, like I don't, I make, I make myself crazy before I go on stage. You do? A little bit. That's so reassuring.

And I don't need to. Don't you? Well, it took, I used to be terrified. I mean, I don't know if you ever experienced that. Terrified.

What the hell? I go over my lines. I've done Pippin now for 10 months yeah every night i'm going over my lines before i go on because of the fear of like what if i don't know 100 it's horrifying yeah but this doesn't terrify you i bet does it to talking to people no no once you get going ah before i go before you come over yeah before i go over i'm like oh my god it's like she's done so much stuff but I do that all the time

but I know you know in talking to somebody that the conversation is what it's all about but I don't want to you know I don't want to be disrespectful

and pay short shrift or like you know I want people to know that you won a Tony Award I want them to know you won Emmy Awards I want them to know that you know

you're an important person in comedy but ultimately you know that's a sidebar you know to me that's not the that's not the talk yeah yeah you know i don't know what the hell is going to happen with the talk yeah but but with stage performing it took me 20 years as a comic and i'm not even that well known as a comic i mean somehow or another this is what i'm known

for now which is fine but in the last five years like i used to look i used to walk into a room where i'm going to perform and i would see the audience come in and i'd immediately go like that that guy's gonna be a problem like that table is that they're gonna be a fucking problem and that was that's what i go up with they're not gonna like me half of these people clearly are not people i would talk to so how the hell am i gonna talk to him but now like it's weird i don't know what's happened but i'm grateful for it like i'll go to a venue i'll go to a theater and i'll be backstage even before the audience comes in and i'll look at the stage i'm like i can't wait to get out what do you say i can't wait to get out there oh i love that like it's just sort of like what switch for you that's so interesting i'm just comfortable now i'm not afraid i'm not afraid

you think it's age success what do you think it is now like because what happened who's your therapist i want to go well what what really, you know, because of what I'm doing in here and because of the work I'm doing, you know, this is all very true to me. So, like, I'm speaking as myself. A lot of times you do five minutes on television, you do a character here and there, even stand up for years. You know, it was me fighting with myself and fighting with the audience. You just become more comfortable with yourself.

That's right. So, and I know what I'm capable of and I know what I can do. I know the sort of parameters of my talent, and I know that most of the people now are in the room, and they know me. So it's sort of like, hey, let's continue the conversation. Yeah, good. Right?

Fabulous. So it's a relief. Yeah, I think, you know what else I think is that your point about there's so much out there, you don't know what's going to be successful, what somebody's going to connect to if they even know you, that somehow takes a little of the edge off. Because now I go and I think, oh, you know, some people don't even know who I am.

They're not going to care. They've got other problems. One son's fighting in Iraq. One son is unemployed. They've got their own problems. There's so much going on that it doesn't all rest on me, whereas it used to feel much more like that because there was less going on.

And also you were beating yourself up. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, you somehow framed yourself as somebody that did not succeed in the way you wanted to. And that, you know, then it just becomes, it's hard not to get bitter. So, you know, fighting bitterness. Yeah, yeah, wow not to get bitter. So, you know, fighting bitterness. Yeah, wow.

It's a full-time job. Yeah. Isn't it? Yeah. That's more exhausting than tweeting. Oh, yeah. That's why you're tweeting. It's the war against self-pity.

Oh, my gosh. But, you know, it's funny when I've been, because I've been doing a lot of interviews for the book. And, you know, just so happy to be talking to everybody. Everybody's been really great. And then after I think, gee, I carried on like I've just so got it together. And then I'll go back to my room and I'll be like, I'm like the last person has it together. Why did I carry on? Because in some way. You're an entertainer. Why did I carry on? Because in some way-

You're an entertainer. What do you mean why? No, because in some ways, Mark, here's what I've learned. In some ways, I do have it together. Of course. Yeah. And of course, there are going to be down times.

I've just learned to integrate them. I'm sorry to keep going back to my book. That's crazy. The book's great. But that's what I found. HarperCollins asked me to write a collection of short, funny stories like Nora Ephron and David. And I started off, yeah. And then I'm like writing stories about my dad and stories about why I fly to Atlanta to get my haircut.

Because I realized that to entertain doesn't mean that it has to be funny all the time. that to entertain doesn't mean that it has to be funny all the time that to entertain means that i can tell you honestly that i have fears and anxiety too and it can still be entertaining and so that's what that's um yeah and also it's what fuels you you know like to be as as dynamic a personality as you are just naturally you know on stage like you know you you what we do as artists and i'm really wary to even use that word is that somehow or another either you've got to to you know to kind of mine your your panic and anxiety and darkness or whatever into something relatable something you want to be relieved of it with the audience. That's a good way to put it. It's like you're basically saying, I'm up here avoiding me.

Who wants in? That is so good. I'm up here avoiding me for two hours and 40 minutes. Please, God, take this from me. Take me from me. Please God, take this from me. Take me from me. That's, I think that definitely was 100% of how I performed.

And now I perform with, listen, I know my truth is your truth and I'm going to share it with you. And together we can be uplifted. It's slightly shifted. Yeah, no, for me too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I've always been autobiographical,

you know, but there was a period, but I never did it like through song and dance. i was evolving as a performer i was angry you were yeah was that your thing yeah yeah but it was genuine it's good for laughs too though sometimes it got a little heavy with me you know i think you know it took me a long time to learn that uh they're laughing because they're uncomfortable oh wow like angry like like who is an angry, who would you say is an angry comedian today? Well, the curmudgeon is a great comedic archetype. You know, like Louis Black is a great curmudgeon.

Yeah. And the crank, like Letterman's a crank. And, you know, there is a line to ride with that. And it's a natural thing. I was literally just angry. It wasn't even an art form. No, no. You were just fucking angry that's right okay i'm gonna drag you through this you know and after you know 20 years of not building a

following i'm like maybe i'm not everyone's idea of a night out you know but people can really relate to that i love that yeah well i found that like what's beneath it all is is a certain sadness and there's a certain uh you know vulnerability you're very sensitive people. But like, I think, you know, like you are genuinely a warm person and whatever hardships you've come through, you know, that's just your humanity. So you can't really avoid it. But, you know, song and dance.

I mean, see, I can't even, like, I can't even watch musicals. Because you're nervous when you watch them? No, because I cry when people sing. Me too. And it's not even they're singing a sad song there's just something so vulnerable about it to me like you know there was an act i think it's an acting teacher stella adler i think who said um we and i'm sure it's not her but i love this um we sing when we can't talk anymore and And the best songs come out of,

do you know, I've expressed myself as much as I can and now I'm just going to sing. It doesn't, it, it. Interesting. Do you know what I'm saying? That's what I think. That's why maybe you're connected to it. The worst is when I'm going to talk

and now all of a sudden I'm going to just take a moment that has nothing to do with what I just said and sing a song. It's just like a cabaret act. It's so disconnected, right? But when somebody sings some enchanted evening, that's come out of a beautiful relationship he's just had with the girl in South Pacific. Or when I sing in Pippin, and when Pippin says to me, Grandma, I don't have time for that. And I say, time? Now you listen to me, Pippin. I'm an expert on time. When you are as old as I, my dear,

and I hope that you never are. And then it goes on. But that, I think, it comes, I love that expression. Do you understand what I'm saying about that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's so, yeah. And this, has this been the most rewarding experience

on stage for you? This has been a very rewarding experience, yeah. And what are the other big shows that you've been involved with? Broadway shows? Yeah. Oklahoma and Candide and My Favorite Year and Fiddler on the Roof and a beautiful play I did with Jeffrey Rush, who studied mime with Jacques Lecoq in Paris, believe it or

not, and Susan Sarandon called Exit the King. Oh, yeah. That was big. That was in New York. Oh, yeah, that was big. That was in New York, yeah. Yeah, yeah, it was great. Yeah, he won the Tony for me. And you were able, I imagine that in some of these,

I don't know the shows, but you're able to work dramatic chops and do... In some of them, Fiddler for sure. Yeah. And this show, which isn't particularly a dramatic show, Pippin, we reimagined, so this character who's,

she's a grandmother, Irene Ryan played it when it was originally done in 70s. It was kind of done vaudevillian, but I'm now that age. Right. And I thought it resonates for me in a much different way. And just because I'm 67 doesn't mean I should be doing a joke about a cliched grandmother. We're living to be in our 90s. I want this to be uplifting, and I don't want it to be a joke. So we reinvented it, and I think it's been really beautiful. Who thought of that? You?

A little bit. Yeah. That's great. You know why? That's one of those where you said, I don't mean I don't give a fuck, but the show didn't interest me. The show interests me, but not that part in it, the way it was conceived interested me. Because you could have swept through it.

It's a caricature. A caricature, exactly. And highly successful for I Am Ryan, God bless her. But look, being at this age, when this was written 40 years ago, 66 was old. It isn't now. So it was different for me and um and so it would have been fine if diane paulus who reimagined this the director said that's not how i would have think i'd say beautiful then god bless you and i can't wait to see it but it

doesn't interest me right but she was on on board so it doesn't often happen like that mark it's a great gift when a director says i'm going to listen to everything you have to say and show me and you know what 98 i'm going to let you do i mean it doesn't happen that often it was very collaborative that's great collaboration and i was kind of now it's a theme for this interview was with s SCTV. That's what I thrive on, and I think that's why live performances are so great because it's all, except when I do my one-person show, which is so lonely. But I think, and I could never do stand-up for that. I love the community of actors. I love being back in the green room talking.

That's what gets me going. I started out in children's theater in maine when i was nine and i guess it's in your bones and that doesn't go away it's a world yeah the world of theater is definitely a world it's a community yeah it's a community and when did now your folks did they get to see your success you know i don't my mom didn't see so much of it because she died when she was very young my dad saw it but never appreciated it because i don't, my mom didn't see so much of it because she died when she was very young. My dad saw it but never appreciated it. Because I don't think success, winning it, when I won my first Tony, he said, now do you think you'll get a break?

I don't think he understood. He didn't understand. To him, you know, he grew up in the 40s and 50s when people that made it were Elizabeth Taylor and Clark Gable and big movie stars. That was his idea of making it. So being on SCTV, certainly, you know, Jesus Christ, none of my friends thought that was funny. When are you going to do something funny? Carol Burnett was funny to him.

That's so brutal because I have that with my father too. And it's like, and someone just brought it to my attention the other day. Like I had a guy come to the show. This guy, he's writing a book on shame. And I was on stage the other day yeah like i had a guy come to the show this guy he's writing a book on shame and and i was on stage the other night on tuesday i've been workshopping a bunch of new stuff and i was talking about my father and about this phone call that i had with my father my father was that guy like he was that guy where i'm like you know he like no matter what i do you know i'll get on the phone with him he'd be like why don't you call bill maher and see what he did

but and and and the thing that the guy said to me just the other day, he said, that is shaming. And in that, you know, if that cycle has been going on your whole life, how are you ever gonna feel like you're good enough or that you're, you know, and that you're up against that. And once, you know, they lose their relevance or their power over you, that dialogue's internal.

It is. And what else is what's so sad? I hope you will read this if you have some time. It's called Why I Fly to Atlanta to Get My Hair Cut. And I think that it will resonate for you because it's all about this. Yeah. And coming to terms with the fact that once that kind of critical dialogue is gone you actually don't know what the dialogue is i'm there yeah so i want you to read that i will i think you read

read that and also read the chapter called secrets and i think that you will we don't talk about that right now at all but um but what did you find what did i find i mean like well yeah well not with with the idea that once you identify those internal dialogues, because like I'm at that point right now, I'm 51. Right, right, right. And I've been doing some reading that's moved me about psychology and about who I am. Right, right, right. That you have all these patterns, which is actually how you parented yourself.

Yeah. These faulty dialogues of I'm not good enough. Yeah, you try to change them, Mark. I think a lot of it's hard to change and i think it just has to come with i think you just have to accept it i mean i really do fly to atlanta to get my haircut but what is that moment though where you're like without the dialogue who am i what do i do when you don't have that dialogue with your dad like who am i really without you know without these horrible yeah and where's the and where's the real connection with my dad? Do I need to rely on the criticism

to keep us connected and intimate and loving? Is there anything else? I think it's something you just explore and you find answers, and I don't think they're ever going to be 100%. Here's what we're not going to get. The unconditional love that we wanted. Let's accept it and move on. Good luck. Right? We're not going to get that, but that's okay. We're not going to get. The unconditional love that we wanted. Let's accept it and move on.

Good luck. Right? We're not going to get that, but that's okay. Maybe you can get it on Instagram. But I got a lot from my dad. Sure. And what I gained was insight. And when you read that, I don't know if you can connect with me through, you can do it

through Twitter. Yeah, you can give me your info. Yeah, if you write me or call me, I'd love to know. Well, why do you go to Atlanta to get your haircut? What. Well, why do you go to Atlanta to get your haircut? What's that? Why do you go to Atlanta to get your haircut? Because I'm obsessed with my hair. Because my dad could only ever comment on what my hair looked like, no matter what I did.

Was it ever good? It was like, why didn't you get that wig? Why did you have to wear that hairdo? Well, we were in a car and i said to him he was in his 80s and i was in my 50s and um he said so is anything coming up is anything going to be funnier than i've seen you lately and when do you think you'll do anything funny and i said daddy i'm in a movie that i really love it's called head big in the angry inch i think it's really going to be a cult classic i saw it and i didn't like it but your hair looked good he said

and i said you know for the it was the first time in my life i ever said to him you know that really be a cult classic. I saw it and I didn't like it, but your hair looked good, he said. And I said, you know, it was the first time in my life I ever said to him, you know, that really hurts me, dad. All the years you've seen me and everything, you've never told me that I was good in anything. And he turned around, looked out the window and he started crying. And he said, because I don't know about acting, but I know it looks pretty. And then we started to talk, and then I went to Maine to do some research on him and learned much about him that I didn't know before. And I don't know.

It's just, you know, what are you going to do? You keep looking and searching. That's wild. That's very touching. Now you got me all choked up. Aw. Well, it was great talking to you. Thank you, Mark.

Wonderful. And I wish you the best of luck with the book and with Pippin. And I think you're amazing. Thank you. And you seem to be doing great. Right now. There won't be when I get back in the car. This is what I'll be doing.

Why did I say that? Yeah. How come I... Why did I... Can I just tell the people how good your hair looks though? My hair doesn't look good. Okay. Obsessing.

That's what I'll be obsessing about tomorrow. Look what I did. Oh my gosh. Reopened an old wound. Thanks, Mark. Thank you. It's been so much fun. It has.

Isn't she amazing? She's amazing. Am I right? Go to WTFpod.com for all your WTFpod needs. Get the app free, then upgrade to the premium 550 some odd 60 i don't know episodes you can stream them all get some just coffee.coop at wtfpod.com you can leave comments on the comment board through facebook so i know who you are if i choose to drop in and read i can see your face and know your name when you dump shit or drop garbage into my comment board.

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