WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 575 - Cameron Esposito

Episode Date: February 8, 2015

Comedian Cameron Esposito made her mark when a spontaneous moment during an appearance on The Late Late Show put her toe to toe with Jay Leno. Cameron tells Marc about that night and its aftermath, and also discusses what she believes are her responsibilities as an out lesbian in the entertainment industry. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Lock the gates! store and a cast creative okay let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fucking ears what the fucksters what's going on i'm mark maron this is my show this is wtf the podcast the podcast that's in its sixth year god i hope i'm not stroking out again man i just gotta learn how to talk again i i was just on the phone for a half an hour and i talked fine i talked well i talked good to the person i was talking to. I was on the phone for 45 minutes with my father the other night. That was exciting. My father enjoys when I get aggravated.

That's when he starts laughing. Look at the kid. He's all worked up about something, and he chuckles. See, that's the relationship I have with my dad. Look, it's out of me, and it's in you. Ha-ha, good luck. Good luck with that. Go dump it in the river.

So, what is going on, people? We just got done with the third week of shooting Marathon IFC. It was a pretty fucking amazing week. I got to be honest with you. Let's get into present frame first. What is happening? Cameron Esposito is on the show today and uh her most recent comedy album is called same sex symbol and you can get that on itunes or anywhere

you get your comedy albums cameron esposito also worked on the show marin this week god there's a lot of people coming through so you all know that i'm touring right there was some issue with the san francisco link but that's all happening go to wtfpod.com slash calendar and get good see where i'm coming it's a long tour it goes to dc it goes to philly it goes to boston it goes to madison it goes to pittsburgh goes to outside det, Toronto, Houston, Dallas, Seattle, Vancouver, San Fran, Asheville, North Carolina, Charleston, South Carolina, Atlanta, Georgia, New Orleans, Louisiana, Rochester, New York. Thank you for all the suggestions for your art.

Thank you for sending your art in for the tour posters um i'm selecting them now that's happening okay so this week on the show and i think i told you i was going to work with these guys but it's come to pass elliot gould played himself i can't give you too much about the show because this is the the first episode of it of the third season but i worked with ellie gould and alex rocco who was mo green in the godfather ellie gould played himself alex rocco played another guy and i'm doing scenes with these guys who are so ingrained in my mind how many times have you seen the long goodbye how many times have you seen mash how many times have you seen the long goodbye how many times have you seen mash how many times have you seen the godfathers part one and two mo green great character actor and i'm doing scenes with

the two of these guys just sitting there going like i cannot believe this is happening but i'll tell you something the scene i did with alex rocco which is one of the funniest things I've ever been part of. It's going to be in the first episode of the third season of Marin. I could not keep a straight face. And I had that moment where, holy shit, this is a blast. Like it's gotten to that point now that I'm in the third season where I feel a little more confident. I feel comfortable with acting. You know, I feel like I can let a little.

I'm not freaking out as much. And I can let a little of the intensity sort of. I don't need to panic at all. But I can just sort of let the comedy happen a little easier. But this scene is a dark scene. And Rocco just went to town and what we got out of it I can't I wish I could tell you more but I'd rather you just wait I know it's a long tease but I'd rather you wait for it until May until when it comes out but god it felt

great and Lucy Davis from the original office is playing my British manager, Olivia, but she's Emily in the show. And to work with Lucy Davis, the subtlety, and it's just working with great actors is so amazingly fun. I just hope I hold up. I hope I am standing up to them. But I'll tell you, when you work with great actors, it makes you look a lot better. I work with Adam Goldberg also. He's in an episode. Constance Zimmer as well but me and Goldberg uh did did some very funny scenes I love working with him he feels like my brother or something we're on the same spiritual not spiritual we're just on the same frequency of some kind but it's looking good i guess is what i'm telling you it's looking good it's coming along great i'd mentioned i did my first job as a dj i went over to gimme gimme records dan relocated down

on fig into a nicer bigger store asked me to dj for an hour learned i learned how to go in between the tables so that's something I can do now. Skill. Brought my records. Went with some sort of, some classics. Didn't try to impress, didn't nerd out. Didn't do this sort of like, oh, you never heard this?

That's because it's really, because only I know about that song. Didn't try to prove anything to the record nerds. Played some Petty. Played some Del Fuego's. Played some Joe Jackson even. Played some Costello. Played joe jackson even played some costello played some mc5 played some uh uh wilson pickett mixed it up man mixed it up cameron esposito who after this interview played a pretty big part on my on an episode of my show this this season she had a

small part last season and she re... How do you say that? She redoes the part. She re... Why is that word missing? She plays the same part, just bigger this time. And it was great talking to her.

So let's chat now with Cameron Esposito. You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get snow need with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs and mozzarella balls, yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats, get almost, almost anything.

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FX's Shogun, a new original series, streaming February 27th, exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. I think I'm writing a really interesting line for people. Because I think there's a prettiness to my face. Hot butch. Yeah. Well, I mean, I literally have a side mullet.

And this is people. Side mullet. Did you make that up? Yeah, I did. Well, I did. Yes, of course. You have to when you have. But I committed to this hairstyle, I think, before I realized what the hairstyle meant.

Which is, this is actually how it feels on the inside a little bit. So you did this not saying like i need a gay flag so i'm going to do a side mode you wouldn't believe how much this is not the gayest flag in the world there are no gay flags not anymore i mean certainly not for women i think like my fiancee has like your haircut basically and dude still hit on her yeah it's just a very confusing. Men are very confused by lesbians because they're not sure like, am I invited here? What's going on here?

Like, have they just never been asked? Is it because they haven't been asked? If I just ask them, I get both of them, right? Like I get the couple. I get to go home with the couple. Well, I mean, there is that sort of point of view where I had an experience like years ago where the first woman that I really was in love with or had a real relationship with had come out of a relationship with a woman and then after me started another one. And years later, she was with a woman. And I remember I was going to visit her.

She invited me over to visit them. Yes. You know, in Connecticut. And I'm like, maybe this is going to happen for me. Oh, my God. Right? What? All right.

So please tell me. But it was one of those things where it's like, I don't know what's going on. But maybe. How did she contact you? Is this like a phone call, an email? Well, no, it wasn't like, we're going to fuck. It was like, I know you're in town, or if you want to come hang out with us. It was innocent.

No, I don't think it was. It wasn't. I am actually reading that she did not want to fuck you, not knowing anything else about this. I don't know why that's why I automatically got in. But I'm just answering to your idea of what men are thinking. I thought, well, that might be interesting. I was not thinking it was going to happen or it was about me, but I'm like, well, maybe something interesting could happen. thinking like it was going to happen or it was about me.

But I'm like, well, maybe, you know, something interesting could happen. And then, you know, when they pulled up in her girlfriend's truck, like it was like right away, I'm like, oh, this is not, it has nothing to do with me. Bisexuality doesn't mean all at once, necessarily. It's just not going to, this has nothing to do with me. I think that if men actually got what they wanted, you know, like in terms of there's a really heightened, well, there's a sexualization

of lesbian sexuality because I think it's men's way of feeling included. Right? So it's like, if I'm into this, then I'm not excluded from this. But also,

but there's also the representation of lesbian sex for men. Right, that's exactly what I'm saying. Like if I can be into this, then it's still about me even though I'm not there.

Exactly. It's still my thing. Even though it's completely contrived. Yes. You know, they make it for men. Right. You know, then it's still about me even though I'm not there. Exactly. It's still my thing. Even though it's completely contrived. Yes. You know, they make it for men. Right.

You know, like there's some idea that men are like, you know, two chicks, huh? That'd be amazing. And if they actually saw

what two chicks do together, they'd be like, oh my God. Dudes would be like, I gotta get the fuck out of here. This is overwhelming. They are pleasing each other

in a way that I do not understand because they have the same parts. Yeah, it seems so hard and fast. It's very and fast it's a lot less uh it's a lot less uh like tapping no delicate no there's a lot of digging yeah it's very diggy that's it you you are familiar with real lesbian sexual pleasure mark yeah yeah no i uh yeah i actually i do a bit on stage about like the first time you actually see a woman masturbate in front of you.

You're like, oh, my God, that thing can take a beating. Well, I do a bit about dudes not understanding lesbian porn because they're seeing these two women that are clearly not lesbians. Right. And it's not just the stuff that they're doing together. It's like the whole aesthetic is hysterical how far apart that is. And I know that that is also true because I still go in for parts here in LA. For lesbian porn parts? Yeah, I go in for lesbian porn parts.

By that I mean the parts of a woman. Too real. No, I'll go in for like an audition to play a lesbian. I actually played a lesbian in your show. You did for a little bit. But I go in for parts to play play lesbian and then it'll go to like a playboy bunny or something you know what i mean like they're they're just like yeah yeah we want to include you in this but like technically like this is too much you're too much right too

much lesbian i should lead with my long side yeah which is shimmy into the room right side first but but do you does that uh you don't seem upset about this do you are you upset about the misrepresentation of uh of lesbian sex in the the male uh dominated porn industry i mean it gives me something to fight for i think that it's really great as a comic to have like something that is actually real that you have to fight for being a woman and having that being pretty confusing in terms of mainstream culture and then being a woman and having that be pretty confusing in terms of mainstream culture and then also being a lesbian having that being pretty confused so i just feel like it's a great gift given the career that i chose that people don't understand what the hell

is going on it's interesting to me i think we should come around to it not just get into it is that you know what when you are in the gay community and you are out and you speak about being a lesbian there seems to be this idea that they're they're that just by virtue of that there's social responsibility that you know i i have to represent right and i i don't know what your struggle with that has been or forever if it ever was but we can kind of get get into that later but where did you come from because i don't know you're you're the generation maybe a couple after me. Yeah, definitely.

And we met in New York, I think. And then we casted you on my show. But where did you start doing stand-up? Where did you grow up? You know, I'm from Chicago. Really? Yeah. Like in the city?

No, the burbs. Like the hardcore suburbs of Chicago. Which one? I'm from a place called Western Springs. It's adorable. There's a milkman. Literally a milkman. Still?

Like when I was growing up. Oh, yeah. Right. I think there still is one. so there was like a metal box out front that they put the milk like a cooler yeah they put like bottles in there i mean yes i mean this is it was like idyllic everybody knows how old are you if you don't mind me i'm 32 so i mean this is like there was sort of a holdover yes this is like a beautiful pleasantville sort of situation where like the whole place is basically in middle and white. Middle class, working class, upper middle class? No, upper middle class. And right next to like a very, very wealthy suburb.

So we were kind of like the wrong side of the tracks, but in like a way where the wrong side of the tracks still get milk delivered. The four bedroom ghetto. Yeah. Four bedroom house ghetto. Exactly. But the town next door is like where Dennis the Menace was filmed. Really? And the Menace was filmed. Really? And the movie Backdraft.

So if you can imagine like it actually has red brick streets and stuff like that. So it's a real American sort of feeling place. It's just like gorgeous. Yeah. And. What did your dad do? My dad's a lawyer. So he's a lawyer.

What kind of lawyer? He does like wrongful firings and stuff like that. So he's on the good team? He's on the good team, yeah. He works for himself. He has like a really small firm and he works super long hours and always has my entire life. And your folks married? Yeah, they've been together for 40 years.

How do you like that? I mean, it's bizarre that I have 40 together. How is that? Can you imagine 40 years? And they fought a lot when I was growing up. And I think I thought that was them not liking each other. Yeah. But now that I'm the age that I am, I kind of realize like maybe that was them figuring

out how to stay together. And you have brothers and sisters? I'm in the middle. I have two sisters. So you're all girls? All girls. Are you the only gay one? I am the only gay one.

And my sisters are very girly, hyper girly girls. Like my older sister, she still is a modern dancer. As a kid, she was a ballerina. Really? Yeah. So it's nice. So your parents must have been pretty supportive of the artistic track.

Yeah, my little sister lives in Argentina and she's like an actor and teaches Spanish theater. She teaches theater in Spanish. Really? Yes, everybody in my family has like, I mean, my older sister is also a lawyer now, but she works-

Lawyer modern dancer. She works for the city of Chicago doing their arts programming. So she like uses her degree. Well, this is a very uplifting sort of progressive story we're in right now. It is. I mean, it's weird that we all got out because not I don't think that any of those jobs were considered options. No, I'm not from like a place where people have arts jobs. Right. But but your parents must have been like well they're gonna do what they want they must have afforded you the luxury of that they were very supportive they were really supportive but also very conservative i mean i have like the kind of parents that they would like come and live in my

house if i would let them you know what i mean like that kind of like i have like hovery adorable my dad is a small italian man who cries all the time because he's like so happy about you really like he'll call me are both your parents italian uh yeah but they're like from different parts of italy so my mom is really tall and she has red hair she's from northern italy and my dad is kind of small and like they're they look but but they're not they were both from here yeah but they grew up in like uh the kind of italian catholic families where you know everybody's like everybody's name is carla right carl victor vito every sunday the family would get together kind of deal absolutely and the only reason i don't look like that is

because my dad was adopted but if i if i didn't if my dad wasn't adopted into that family i would like have chest hair it's like that level of Italian. He was adopted? Yeah. Does he know where from? Did he ever do that thing? He found his, so right at the same time I was coming out. When was that? How old were you? I was 20 and I was living in Boston going to school there. Where?

I went to Boston College, which is a very conservative Catholic school. I know what it is. Yeah. You were like, you did all this stuff. I did all this stuff. I was a theology major. What the fuck? No, I'm serious.

I thought I was maybe going to be a priest, but you can't in the Catholic church, so I don't really know what I thought the end game was. Okay, wait. So how much Catholicism were you brought up with? Oh, I mean, like, just very hardcore. Like, I went to Catholic grade school, high school. But did you believe it?

Yes. Yeah, I was an altar server. I was a Eucharistic minister. I did believe in hell. Yeah. And I did believe in hell for gay people. I'm sorry if I'm putting that for gay people. Yeah. Oh, that's a horrible burden. I didn't like, I didn't, I wasn't very judgy. Like I never went and tried to convert other people, but I just felt like there was a real black and white line for myself. But I don't mean to put it in the past tense.

You may still believe in hell. I don't know. No, no, no, no, no, no. Zero amounts of, yeah, zero amounts of that. All of that went away pretty quickly. I just, I got an email recently that I seem to be a little bit condescending towards Catholics. And I always assume that Catholics after a a certain age, pull away from it. I can't imagine not.

I am so angry with the Catholic Church because culturally that's my background. You know, like that's where I'm from and those are supposed to be my people. And it still kind of feels comfortable to hear those things because those are the words from my childhood. In Latin or no? Not in Latin, but like just mass and all that just all that stuff felt really good sure like my home there yeah but i'm like i think the catholic church is the worst i mean that's me i think it is the worst because it is an organization that

touches every country in the world and it's so much good and it touches little boys and they touch every country in the world physically with their hands. Yeah. It's awful. Well, the way they treat women. I would say the way that they treat women, it's shocking to me that more people don't talk about the way the Catholic Church treats women. Yeah, well, they seem to be quite pushed aside into one specific role. If they have a role, it's this strange nun. It's a walking womb. Yeah.

Yeah, it's a walking womb. Yeah. Angry womb. Yeah, it's a- A useless womb. It's a walking useless yeah or angry womb yeah it's a useless womb it's a walking useless womb right and nuns like the those women you know they take vows of poverty and they live with the people that they're serving and priests often don't you know priests can be they can work for the city that they live in they don't have to work for and also just the power and empire

and politics of the catholic church and how relevant and and and insanely powerful it was for years yeah i mean there is something uh glorious in the fact that it's losing so much traction if indeed it is i don't know how people hold on to it i guess that yeah that believers are willing to dismiss anything as being you know isolated episodes of uh you know just you know bad eggs i think it's that cultural thing. If it feels like home, if people say something to you enough, then those just feel like the words that you use. Sure, and it's so ornate.

Oh yeah, it's gorgeous. They own tons of land. They own land in great locations. Have you gone to Italy? Yeah, I lived in Rome for a while. I mean, just to go, even the smallest towns that have a cathedral, if you walk in and you're like, holy shit! Yeah. Because they wanted it to be awe-inspiring because they had to you know you know really brain fuck the poor of every country with this amazing new structures and art i was very impressed and the history is

really i mean there's so much cool because it because it was it is such a through line to people that have lived in the past you know the idea that there's like bones of saints in churches and like catherine's head right here on the wall oh yeah you do yeah it's right there yeah i don't know i went to the where is that in siena is that is that the catherine that got beheaded i think so we're like her head is in one place in her body somewhere else yeah yeah so like i got the head you know who knows if it's really your head but sort of fascinating relics i mean it's amazing yeah it's all very creepy fucking dark stuff man i mean you know you go to rome and you go to catholicism is so death oriented and they just they just put it out right out there it's like the body's right there yeah it's right in there well so pieces and

bodies everywhere have you i don't know if you notice this at all but you know saints that are martyred like people that are martyred for the church yeah uh that become saints afterwards when they paint them they paint them with the instrument of their death oh really so like anytime you see somebody who was martyred so like there are dudes that were like skinned alive and they're holding just like a folded over version of their body oh i didn't know that like a little mini grill really because they were like burned yeah and anytime anybody's with a sword that's because that's that makes sense i mean because the cross is so prevalent. Absolutely. That's why that is, because it's keeping in line with all the rest of that. So the death obsession of Catholicism is just mind-blowing to me.

And I don't even know why it exists, really. I think it's because we're going to rise again, right? I guess so. The body's just a vessel. Why not have a dead one around? Let's hurry it along. Yeah. Or that.

Just get to the next thing. Let's go. So you believed in heaven, too? I did, yeah. I believed in all i mean all of it and your dad being a sweet crying man who uh supports the arts it's hard for me to it's hard to consolidate that the the weird point of view of catholicism you know being so so strict and so black and white and so mythological with with a guy who seems relatively practical yeah i mean i think that's the italian part yeah also like italian men are so sweet and like yeah you know wanna right the women are the ones in power so you're a young catholic girl you're doing all the things

you're you're you're doing what you're you're giving out uh wafers yeah i did that at church how old were you like i started that when i was 18 when i went to school when you were 18 yeah oh you were 18? Yeah. Oh, you were doing that in college? I was doing this in college. This is, I would, yes, this is my, yes. Oh my God. How, I know. I'd go to daily mass.

When did you know you were gay? The first time I ever kissed a woman, when I was 20. I mean, I really didn't know, which is bizarre. I understand that it's bizarre, but I didn't know. So during your childhood and the idea of the sort of horrible sentence of hell for gay people was not something weighing on your conscience because you weren't aware of it. I wasn't aware of it. I even found a paper that I wrote for religion class when I was a junior or senior. I found it after I'd come out, just this old floppy disk, and I looked down there, and there was a paper about We had to write what we thought happened to in college. This is in high school We had to write what we thought happened to gay people We had to write a paper about what we thought happened to get what you say

I said that I wasn't gay so I couldn't possibly know whether or not it was a choice So therefore I couldn't condemn anybody. That's what I said. So you which is amazing Well, what do you attribute that to were you shut down i think i attribute to a couple things um i didn't know any gay people zero gay people i mean all the people that i knew they didn't have drama at your high school no but nobody was out i mean they did but like i my closest friends that that now have come out you know they were just like sensitive actors yeah nobody nobody was out no and the our teachers- Not even to each other. Not even in secret.

No, no. Like, I got a problem. I sucked at it. Nope. No. If that was happening, I didn't know about it. Yeah, yeah. And the teachers that we had that were very effeminate or very butch, they were like priests

and nuns. Seriously. Seriously. Hey, look, I have a full, and I've put this theory out there before, and I know it to be true in my mind, that think that that gay leaning men in the communities in italian not in catholic communities were pushed into the priesthood out of fear and and and for you know the the community was literally like you should really become a priest they're trying to save them yeah absolutely and that's also you know part of the

reason that this whole problem has happened because those people were not allowed to live right it gets a little tricky identifying them as as homosexuals i'm not saying they're gay i'm saying that um right if you are able to be gay you can live right you know a great and actually i would say the same thing about straight men yeah straight men that are priests you know if you are able to be straight and live a full sexual life you might not so what they're doing something that's messed up so what what the hell were you doing when you you know you became sexually alive so i mean i was dating men i dated men for a really long time i was i did the captain of the football team in high school i was i was like we were the class couple and i thought that's i just thought nobody really cared about sex were you were you a

jock yeah i was like a big athlete and i was like the mascot of the football team. I saw you do a joke about that. I was like super involved and really committed to school. Yeah, you seem like you're on top of shit. I was on top of shit. Yeah, but I mean, I was a mess. I had no idea. I was in love with my best friend. I didn't know.

I just thought that's how women felt. So this is all in retrospect. Yes, yes. felt now so this is all in retrospect yes yes because i think women also have that kind of um more expansive view of the way they can be friends with each other you know like if dudes are really close when you're a little kid a guy's somebody's gonna come up to you and they're gonna call you they're gonna call you a name you know they're gonna call you what they think you are and then maybe you'll start to wonder if that's what you are but for women that that happens a lot less i think like you can just be a jock.

Right. And you can just have really close friendships. You can have sleepovers. You can like hug each other. And none of it means anything unless it does. Right. You know, so I just thought that's how everybody felt. So you're having sleepovers, hugging each other.

Yeah. I would sleep in my best. I would go to sleep at my best friend's house. Not on a sleepover. Just any night of the week or? We would have sleepovers. But she would have, she had seven older brothers and sisters that no longer lived at home and i would insist on sleeping in her bed even though there's nine there were like nine

but i just was like really committed to sleeping in her bed but i just thought that's how best friends were but you never felt a sexual feeling you just felt felt connected. No, I think I did, but I don't think I knew what sexual feelings were. That's astounding to me. Yeah. You must have been pretty shut down. I mean, I think I was very confused. Yeah. I would have dreams about women.

Really? Mm-hmm. And when you were with men, we don't need to keep talking about it, but why not? No, I mean, I'm happy to talk about it because this is real. Well, right. And I think this actually happens to a lot more women than well yeah uh because you know men like i said they're labeled so much earlier and a lot of the women that i've dated a lot of gay women that i know had like a similar experience to this they were just shut down and

thought they were weird yeah women aren't supposed to get in touch with their sexualities i don't know if you ever have heard what it's like to be a teen girl but you're all about like his blow job right you know nobody's trying to figure out like whether or not you're like hey what are you jerking off to nobody nobody gives a shit you're not supposed to be touching yourself that's guy talk it has nothing catholic thing too yeah it is a catholic thing absolutely but i think it's also a thing for women you know i think women are not really taught to find what they like right of course they're not you know it's all about yeah it's all about finding out what he likes so that you can turn him on

and it's not about what you... And that's supposed to be satisfying to you. Yes, exactly. Well, you made him come. Isn't that great? Yeah, it's easy. You did a great job.

Yeah, what a trick that is. How hard is that really to make a guy come? That's really hard because it's a penis. It's supposed to be. Yeah. But all right,

so you have all these feelings that are not identified until much later in your life. You're curious about religion. Why do you end up... Well, first, let's get back to the football, the head of the football team. What was that guy like? He was really nice.

We were really good friends. And I liked talking to him. He was handsome. I mean, I know what good-looking men look like. How long did you date him? I dated him for like three and a half years. I had boyfriends in college also. Did you have sex with him?

This is a really weird debatable. How can the answer to this be debatable? But I don't know because like I also was pretty committed to waiting for marriage because I didn't know that like that was supposed to be a difficult thing to do. Was there also guilt around it because of a Catholic thing? Yeah, exactly. But I think also it was a great excuse. You know, like it was the to be a difficult thing to do was there also guilt around it because of a catholic yeah exactly so but i i think also it was a great excuse you know like it was the twofer where it was like you could hold on you could hold the line yeah exactly because of your beliefs yeah just like oh man as much as i want to and believe me yeah i really want to oh man um i so no i would he would go home i just have memories of you know like he would go

home after we'd be hanging out like making out in my parents basement or something dry humping yeah yeah and i mean it felt nice because kissing feels nice but it was never like i also felt gross like it felt um i had like weird rules like he couldn't touch my shoulders and stuff like that i mean just you know like normal heter't touch my shoulders and stuff like that i mean just you know like normal heterosexual female rules that they have no shoulder touching you've heard that a lot a lot of women please no shoulder and he would go home and i just remember that i would need to stay up for like a bunch of hours like i would have if he left at 10 or whatever i'd have to stay up till like four o'clock in the morning and i would like eat cereal you you know, just like do like, what are like the most, these like really comforting things.

Like I would eat cereal. I would watch TV. You were just all jacked up. I was just like, I had to get it back out of my body. Like whatever had been happening, you know, I just couldn't deal with it. Because the feelings were overwhelming or was it like it felt uncomfortable? It was so uncomfortable. Oh my God.

But I liked him. Yeah, right. So you just couldn't understand. I couldn't understand why I would feel so uncomfortable hanging out. And you had no one to talk to. Yeah, I didn't. There was no person that would have been able to identify this. It doesn't sound like it was misery, but it was frustrating. I think probably it would have been misery if I had had any idea that it was supposed to feel different than that.

You know, like, does that make any sense yeah sure sure like if you've never seen the sun you're gonna be like darkness is decent yeah it's a little weird it's decent to good yeah yeah so you were just sort of like i guess this is life yeah absolutely yeah i understand that but i think everyone feels that to a certain degree. And those kind of frustrations are communicable. I mean, you must have been talking about boys at some level to somebody. Oh, sure. Yeah. I mean, all my best friends were dating dudes. And, you know, we talked about our guys. Yeah.

It's not like he wasn't attractive. You know, it's not like I didn't look at him and think like, oh, he's so cute. Like I wished. But it wasn't like I thought he was so cute. I just couldn't figure out what to do with how cute he was. You never sort of like got to get that cock. No. No, got to get that cock away from me.

Put it back in its car and send it home. Yeah, yeah. Good. Thank God that didn't come out. That seems a little scary. So why theology, though, ultimately? I mean, so you were a believer. Yeah.

You go to college. When did God go away? When he kissed a girl? Well, a little bit before that, And so you were a believer. Yeah. You go to college. When did God go away? When he kissed a girl? Well, a little bit before that because I started realizing how the Catholic Church treated women. That kind of happened like right before. So it was intellectual. Yes, absolutely. I mean, I will say that I think the reason I was interested in it is because I was interested in what's important to people, which is still what I'm interested in now.

That's the same thing as comedy. You know, you're just like talking about what's important to you and trying to hear what's important to other people and like live in the world in that sense of connected way yeah it's the same thing you know it's just and if you read religious texts like kind of poetry or if you you know absorb them on like a really superficial level like if you don't take them literally and i don't think i i think after a while i wasn't taking them literally but i was just like this is a cool way to live. You know, it's cool to live. There was something about the idea of faith, of that making people feel more comfortable in the world. Yeah. And also like working for the outsider, which is eventually where, because I kind of swayed towards a much more leftist view of Catholicism.

Because there actually is like a pretty big. Oh, I know. Yeah. They've been around for. Liberation theology. The marchers. Yeah. Yeah. I would go on those marches you know I went to like uh the school of the Americas which is where they train people to do the assassinations in like South and Central America on American soil and I would go to protests there and I would go and do like

solidarity trips in foreign countries not to like convert people but just to kind of like be present to be like a witness to poverty good Catholic yeah isn't that like the nicest thing in the world a college kid could do is just like go spend spring break with like a really poor jamaican person of course it's so nice of me yeah because i had no skills then you get the sun and you also feel like you're doing something right exactly where where are these countries that you went to you went to jamaica i went to jamaica i went to the navajo nation i went all over um really you went to that we're in arizona uh yeah in new mexico and arizona in arizona really what was that march it was not a march just like uh we spent like i spent like two weeks just going to like the local organizations there and just kind of learning about it's like

another planet isn't it yeah it is i mean at the time like uh hiv was one of the biggest issues that they were dealing with really it's like condoms were not generally accepted as a form of birth control right so that was like a huge hiv was there a lot of drug use too um alcohol i know alcohol alcohol stuff but, but not like alcohol, alcohol, like mixing chemicals together to make something that would intoxicate you. Yeah, yeah, the bad, like industrial chemicals. Like hairspray. People were drinking hairspray a lot because that'll affect your body. But also it does the same thing to the inside of your body that it does to your hair.

Horrible. So you spent two weeks there. I have no idea what that's like you know i've read a book or two on the condition of of the indian population at that time it's just devastating like they're so isolated it was also really wild just going into like a grocery store and seeing that everybody there was like visibly native american because it made me you know, how often I didn't see those types of faces. And then just to like, this is still, this is just domestically. This is just in our,

what'd you learn there? I mean, what'd you walk away from that with in general? Like even Jamaica. I mean, what do you, you know, what,

what, what did it do to your heart? Anything? Or did you just feel like, no, I think, I think all that stuff just made me realize like how, like what you can do to help. And I think that what you can do to help is sometimes being on the ground.

You know, I would see people that really had skills. Those are the only people that help. You know, that really had skills that were really like there and committed. And then other than that, you know know just realizing like how much we need to support those people and that are in the that are in trouble yeah or that don't like support the people that are you know committed to staying there and committed to help oh yeah that's like legislation and things like that you know like this is not no that's not a that's not the way to do it you know it's like that's right or blathering about it on television the unsung

heroes are the people that are like we're feeding them right and i would also say like people that live in that community in the you know the different communities that i was in that are like the jamaicans that are helping jamaicans or you know i did some stuff in rome as well where it would be like roman people serving roman people right a soup kitchen and i just think like that's also an even more powerful tool than just thinking that you can come in and solve anything right because why i can't solve anything right it's volunteering it's like it's being selfless it's service which is a big part of the christian deal right and getting out there and do it but like who has time for that thank god those people are out there i agree you go over there you give them a pat on the back this

is great what you're doing i'm gonna go home yeah yeah i mean it is i think also just realizing a limitation to you know realizing that you're like a piece of shit who's just getting on with their life is also a powerful thing yeah i mean that's that's real you know we're not we're not we're sending tweets out yeah are we yeah go fuck ourselves you know like we're not doing anything i feel i feel bad about it but like but because of that like i try not to to pay any self-righteous lip service to to causes because i don't think that's really doing anything i'd rather just accept the fact that look i share my life and if it helps people that's great but i'm not going to pretend that like i'm like i'm some big message guy or that i'm like or

carry the burden of like hey i donated some money to some place does that make me something well i think actually this is an interesting way to go back to what you were just asking me earlier which is like i think there is something also to realizing like your own community that you can kind of witness to and connect to so that same way that like oh there's these people that are spending their lives like that like i am just a silly stand-up comic i just tell jokes in bars while people are you know hopefully not getting too drunk to pay attention but at the same time i know that when i was coming out if i had heard somebody like me talking about their life that would have helped me so much you know and like the kind of stuff that you talk about about like

eating or yeah depression drug use or depression or mental illness. It makes a huge difference. Those things are, I guess it's also realizing like it's the best thing you can do in the world is just talk about your own stuff. Because like the more personal you are to you, you know, the more you're connecting to the people that are suffering in that. Sure. In that community. Yeah. And then once you sort of get through that or what, the weird thing is is is like only an individual can decide what their civic or social responsibility really is and i think that a

lot of people just sort of like i avoid it like you know i vote you know and i do what i can you know you don't but uh but but like some people find it in their hearts to dedicate their lives to that and thank god they're out there you know because they're the ones that really are out there feeding people i'm glad they're there i'm not one of them no we're not one of them yeah but i'm okay with that yeah i do what i can right i think you're doing great all right thank you thank you unburden me i just think uh i don't know that that's what i should have been doing right you know i don't fucking i don't but i also don't believe in the catholic church right i don't think any i don't think in the Catholic Church. I don't think there's a God.

I don't know that I should be in Jamaica talking to Jamaicans. I am a white person from the suburbs of Chicago. I'm not the one to tell that story. But I can get up in front of people, and it doesn't make me uncomfortable. I'm sure the number of times that you've heard this massively outnumbers mine, but the number of people that are always like, massively outnumbers mine but the number of people that are always like I don't know how you do this job

I don't know how you're a stand up comic that's such a weird like crazy I don't know how I am either job and number one I don't know how I am either

but also like just different people have different skills bodies are built for different things and I should never be a doctor that's not true necessarily you think I should be a doctor

no I don't think you should be but I think after a certain point you accept who you are and don't use that other shit to beat the shit out of yourself. Yeah. I mean, it seems like you could have been whatever you wanted. And frankly, we're all disappointed. Okay, Dad. So sorry to let you down.

It's all right. I'm happy as long as you're happy. It took a long time to get that. Thank you so much for delivering that via your face. From somebody else I need to hear that from. No, no. No one's disappointed. But, you know, you carry that stuff.

But it's weird about the church, too, is that as awful as it may be politically and as an entity in the world, the Catholic Church, I mean, they are the ones feeding people. Or just giving the solace of having a place to go where we can all hang out with each other. Sure. And I guess that's again, how I would like compare it to stand up. Cause it's just about like feeling like it's okay to all gather, you know,

like we want to be human beings. We want to be so close to each other, but we are so confused as to like where the boundaries are and how to do it and so like you know when you say like hey this is a stand-up show yeah and people will sit yeah on top of each other just like oh this is normal because they gave me a ref they gave me like a matrix so this makes sense you ever walk into a stand-up room and it's like not filled and there's like 15 people there and like i wouldn't sit there no There's no one here. Let's get out of here. It's always amazing.

I would never go to a standup show. I actually would never go to a standup show. I wouldn't go to one where I felt the onus of like, sort of like, well, I'm one of 12 people here. It's a lot of pressure. But all right. So did you get the theology degree? Yeah.

I have a faith, peace and justice minor. A faith, peace and justice. Did you think you were going to go to law school? I went to social work school for a while. You did? I thought I was going to be a social worker. Okay, so that does- That was like the evolution of that where I was like, well, like it's-

So it is in you. You did have to fight that struggle of like being, you know, of service to the world and of service to yourself. Well, I was going to social work school during the day and I was doing comedy at night. I was doing improv improv like professionally even and i remember one of my like fellow students came up to me was just like hey she was a little bit older like i think it was she was returning to school that kind of person where like she had another career she was returning and she she literally came up to me and said like hey what do you what are you doing here? And I was like. At social work school. Yeah.

And I was like, I don't know. I guess I thought I was like, I don't know, helping people. She was like, this is very expensive. If you can't answer that question, you should just not do this and do the other thing that you talk about all the time in class. Really? Yeah. She was really cut and dry about it. You know what?

I thank that woman so much because I did quit. So don't waste your time, our money. Also just like, I mean, I was paying. Like you have to pay to go to social work school. You get like no money at social work. So she just checked your heart. Yeah. She was just like, hey, you don't need to be doing this.

Yeah. I don't know who you're trying to prove something to. Jesus. Do the thing you want to do. Yeah, exactly. That guy is so judgment this. Yeah. I don't know who you're trying to prove something to. Jesus. Just do the thing you want to do. Yeah, exactly. That guy is so judgmental. Yeah, I need to do this for Jesus. So, all right.

So when you did kiss a girl, was that like, holy shit, why didn't I do this sooner? It was completely, actually this, so this happened right after I got back from that trip to Jamaica. That's when that happened happened and the only reason that i include that is because i kissed this

woman i was dating two guys at the time and i went to three parties that night the night that i kissed her i went to a party with one of the dudes i was dating a party with bc parties yeah like just on campus parties yeah they were they were really raucous. I went to BU. I know the BC guys. Yeah, I lived right near them for a while. Just like Irish-y looking, you know, preppy and jocks. I mean, I dated one guy

who had like a really long beard. So, I mean, like, it wasn't that preppy. Many things have changed. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, yeah. You're younger than me. No, it's pretty preppy.

Yeah, it is. But I dated, or I kissed those two dudes after, and then I kissed her. At two different parties. At two different parties. The last party was the chick? Yeah, and she was, I kissed her, and it was life-changing.

I mean, completely. Were you a little drunk? Yes, yeah. We had split a giant bottle of yellowtail wine, like a magnum-sized bottle of wine. So you go to two, like, sort of, you know, kind of dude parties, like, you know, college things. Where was the last party? Actually, like, she had come with me to these parties, so we just went back to my room,

and we had, like, a little gathering there. So she was hanging out. Yeah. A little gathering. Yeah. Just you two? Yeah, we were, like, hanging out there, finishing some wine. Uh-huh.

And then? And then, I don't remember what she said, probably something about poverty. But I kissed her. That hot talk. Yeah, yeah. I kissed her, and it was, I mean, it was completely, it was like my first sexual experience, you know? I mean, it really was. And was like my first sexual experience, you know? I mean, it really was. And I knew immediately that something was very different.

And it was like watching, I say this on stage, but this is 100% true. It would be like watching a movie with like the director's commentary that you never understood. Like you never understood the movie and then suddenly like the director's explaining it. And you're like, oh shit, like that's why i never wore like a top to my bikini bottoms when i was a little child because i like had some gender stuff going on and oh like that's why i wanted to sleep in my best friend's bed when there were all those available like i just it all happened at once like i flooded through every so your whole life all of a sudden just made sense yeah exactly like a rubik's cube right just like solved in one move like a kiss just solves a rubik's cube bam that's what's

happening um but the next morning i woke up and i had facial i had ringworm i had contracted ringworm in jamaica which is a fungus i know and it grows in a circle so i had got it on my face and it had not shown up until the morning after i kissed this girl for the first time which as as a Catholic person who thinks that they might be going to hell because they've just discovered they have same-sex attraction, is like probably one of the craziest things that could happen to you. Right. Especially if you've seen the movie The Exorcist. Right.

Sure. Yeah. Satan's in you. Yeah. Satan's in you. He's trying to get out. It's only a matter of time before the three sixes appear in a circle. And it's not going to go away.

No. Oh, so you- It's terrifying. appear in a circle exactly and it's not gonna go away no oh so it's terrifying so there was uh that just uh exacerbated shame religion-based shame yeah absolutely i was so ashamed of myself and i did end up dating that girl she was my first girlfriend but i didn't stop dating those other guys for years but wait how'd you let's walk through the day of ringworm what was you know um i got on a plane and went to go visit my family because it was Easter. But did you put makeup on?

Nope. I just had like a giant flaming thing on my face. And you had no idea what it was? I had no idea what it was. And when I got there, the second I got off the plane, my parents were like, we have to take you to the hospital. Something terrible has happened to you. They didn't know either.

Yeah. They didn't know what it was either. So we were sitting in the hospital. Pretty innocuous. I mean, it's no big deal. You just put like a cream on it but it's also really contagious so i had to call all of those people because there totally would have been a chance that like everybody would have gotten it and also the girl you know like i am at this school where at the time i could have been kicked out of school for being but it's so hilarious because you didn't fuck anybody's You get this weird information like, I might have given you

this weird fungal... It's the weirdest non-STD call in the world. I might have given you a fungus on your face. You would know if there's a circle. It's weird that it shows up on your face. Usually it's on your feet or your arms. I was just in some weird places in Jamaica. I don't know how I came on my first one.

That's a lucky one to get. It's not like hookworm or liver flu. Ringworm is not that uncommon you get at a camp yes and did anyone get it nobody got it no thank god nobody got it because we're all kind of in the same circle of friends like it would have been so all right pretty intense so you treat your wing ringworm and you go back and you're dating this woman yeah and you're dating the two guys i'm dating but you're not doing anything with anybody really i was totally having sex with her with her yeah oh that that happened quickly happened very quickly and she was gay uh yes but we were finding out at the same time yeah oh really that's exciting way to go about it it was really rad like there was no teacher student we were were both very much like learning how to do it,

which was really cool. And also like it was awful to be, I mean, because I hid it. You know, I wasn't out. She was out to her friends. So I would like go to her place and stuff like that. But I will say this, like I wish that that's not how my life had been.

I wish I hadn't been ashamed of myself and I wish I hadn't had to hide. But I will tell you, like, some of the best sex you're going to have in your life is like secret gay sex. Secret gay sex that you're hiding from your boyfriend. There's a lot of straight people that agree with you. Yeah, exactly. There's a lot of Republican senators who agree with me. Sure. Yeah, so it was like really exciting and new.

sure um yeah so it was like really exciting and new and what was the the sort of um process of coming out to your family i told my folks that you have to prepare did you i mean did you like sort of go through it in your head or i was so i mean i was so upset like i was disgusted with myself i was disgusted with what was happening. And I. But you're having a great time. So those were both happening at the same time. Yes, both having the same time. So you're keeping the guys around. Amazing sex.

Yes. To sort of placate your shame. Just be like, maybe in case I can talk myself out of this. Like, I still have these dudes in case I can get married. In case I can have babies. Right, right. If this doesn't stick. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, yeah. in case I can have babies. Right, right. If this doesn't stick. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. And I told my folks because I got home for the summer and I was just a wreck.

What year? Was this sophomore? This was sophomore year, yeah. I wasn't eating or sleeping. Because you were plagued with shame. Yes. And well, I just also thought my life was over. I didn't know any gay adults.

Oh, so you're like no family, no kids. Yes, exactly. I was like, well, I don't know where I'm going to live, you know, but it's not going to be in a safe place. Yeah, exactly. I have to find the gay capital. And I won't be able to have normal friends and I won't be able to have a job. You know, like, I mean, really, I just didn't think that anything was going to be. And the fact that that's all happening to you at 20, you know, like where you're conscious and, you know, you're a thinking person.

You've got your shit together. And it's sort of like this desire thing is fucking me. Yeah, I'm going to be done. Like I'm all, you know, I'm right trying to figure out what my job is going to be, my career and like move forward and just become an adult. And it's already all done. I've already ruined my whole life. You're doomed. Oh, that's horrible

it was pretty bad yeah so okay so i told my folks my dad cried for five years five years yeah he cried for five years like every time i would just say to them you sat them down no they sat me down they sat me down because um i was behaving so erratically like just staying up all day are you on drugs yeah i mean i think well they also guessed what was going on because i was getting a lot of phone calls from the woman i was dating and like weird phone calls where i would like take the this is like when portable phones were a thing and i would like go outside yeah yeah you know and i had always had like a very open exactly i'd always had like a very open relationship with them with the folks and really like been right like a good kid like i was like my older sister was the wild one right know that would like sneak out the window and my dad had to like remove the door

from the hinges to find out she wasn't in there like she was like the ferris bueller's day off kid yeah and i was the cameron which is funny um i just realized that that's true uh but and my little sister was so little she's seven years younger than me she's 10 years younger than my older sister so she was just like blissfully in grade school. And then my older sister was fucking wild. Like she'd just done everything in the world. And I was like the good kid. Bad Catholic girl.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, she was totally the, I mean, she went to Diablo. Cody was in her high school class. She went to our high school. So that movie, Juno, where like there's like a wild, like that's like the kind of person that she was. Just like raucous and, you know. What would happen if somebody had a baby? Like all that stuff was like what was happening for her.

And then I was just like, this is my boyfriend. He's the captain of the football team. I'm everything, right? I'm a psychology. The control freak. Yeah, I was totally the control freak. Yeah. So, all right.

So they sat you down. They sat me down. They were like, we think you're dating this woman. They named her. We think you're dating her. Is that right? And I said, that is right, yeah. And I burst into tears. Yeah.

And they said, I don't remember them saying anything but that they wanted me to go to therapy. We went to therapy as a family. The three of you or the five of you? The three of us okay and i think because my older sister she kind of knew what was going on i had sort of told her she was living in a different city and she was like her response was like i kissed a girl in college no big deal like like she was not necessarily 100 getting it but she was also very very like yeah open and just rad about it so So that was great, but she wasn't at home.

So they took me and I think I thought, you know, I've since realized that they were probably really confused that they just didn't have a better plan. But at the time I thought they were trying to get like reparative therapy going. Really? It seems to me that they were probably, I don't know, but it seems like your parents, they just wanted to make sure you knew what you were doing. So that is actually exactly what it is. But that is like one of the most damaging things I think a gay person can hear when they're coming out.

Is that like that thing where their parents are so worried for them. You know, because I was so worried for me. So just to have that echoed back was pretty awful. Does that make any sense? But I can understand that. Oh, me too. But it's better than like we're taking you to church i mean it is better you know my that that also happened uh you know my dad did uh he said you got to talk to the priest well he just talked to me about um

you know he talked to me about how the bible yeah about and we did he said you know that yeah he said you know i'm just i'm worried that like we won't end up in the same place i mean this is they were doing the best he really thought he had a queen's slate that guy yep they were doing the best that they could i am very aware of the fact that like as much as i didn't have any knowledge they had also no knowledge and then they also weren't experiencing this so i didn't know anything about being gay but i was gay so i knew that it that this felt strong and weird and real right so for them i think you just remove all those emotions and it just looks well it's

impossible it looks like a choice and it looks like i'm ruining my life right it's it's i think it's impossible in that context for them to have empathy. Absolutely. Yeah, you can't, of course. Right. Right. And that's a sad moment. It is really sad, yeah. And I think they also have apologized for that.

I mean, they're not, they look back on it and they realize that that was a tough time for them, too. Sure. And that they're sorry that they, like, weren't able to. And how did that land with you? To trust me. I mean, I do forgive them i do i get it like i get why that's what happened i 100 get it i just think that it also helped me in some ways because we had such a close relationship and i was so worried about letting them down that i think like letting them down in this ultimate way that you had no

way that i would never be able to change, that was kind of a gift. Because now I can be a stand-up comic. It's like, I've already done the worst thing in the world. But you can't even frame it that way. Do you still think that? Oh, no, no, no, no, no. I just mean I've already caused the largest possible schism.

There's nothing else that I could have done. There's no other way I could have been that I think would have disappointed them more for a short term. So we like already went through that. So now they just kind of have to trust me a little bit more. And that was 12 years ago? Yeah, that was 12 years ago. So for five years, your father just couldn't process it? He was really having a hard time.

Yeah. My mom was okay a lot earlier. My dad had a really hard time. Yeah, my mom was okay a lot earlier. My dad had a really hard time. They were, he was able to kind of wrap his mind around it and comprehend it when he met, when he was first able to meet a partner of mine. Oh, really? Because for a really long time, they wouldn't meet the women I was dating.

And then when he eventually met my girlfriend, my ex-girlfriend, he was like, oh, no, I totally get it. She's cool. Like, even hot. Yeah, like he like thought she was rad and like totally got so not unlike your isolation and how you grew up i mean they were just as isolated they'd never seen it so then how does it look my daughter's life is over finally they see what it looks like and she's like a beautiful woman she's really warm and friendly she's a

friend of my sister's like she's a person she's safe yeah you know there's a lot she's a person yeah she's a human being right exactly yeah so i think it was then then suddenly he was just like oh i'm sorry i thought you were dating monsters but you're dating like people that are really nice and you're not a monster yeah and then after that he was able to just completely change he's the first person that called me he called me the morning that um doma was overturned he was driving to work with a dude that he was going to represent in court. He heard on the radio that Domo was overturned.

He pulled over. This is like at, I think this call was at like six o'clock in the morning our time because he was in Chicago. He called me and I was in my bed with my fiance and he called and was like,

put me on speakerphone. You guys, you can get married. And he's standing on the side of the road. He's crying, just like, I'm so happy for you. And I said, like, Dad, are you also happy for you because you get to come to my wedding? And he was just like, oh, Cameron, I never thought of that. I can't wait to be there.

You know, like, I mean, so he's really had a massive change. And it's amazing. That's sweet. Yeah, absolutely. He's a sweet, sweet man. He just didn't know. I didn't know. He didn't know. He had a massive change. And it's amazing. That's sweet. Yeah, absolutely. He's a sweet, sweet man. He just didn't know. I didn't know. He didn't know.

Everybody needs a learning curve. Is that an acceptance? And he likes your fiance? Oh, yeah. They're like close friends, actually. They really like each other. Yeah. What does she do?

Well, she's a stand-up comic, actually. Do I know her? You might have met her. Her name's Rhea Butcher. She's a little bit... So if we're several generations apart, she's like one or two generations below me in terms of when she started. How long have you guys been seeing each other? We've been seeing each other for three years.

We were friends before that, which I've never dated anybody that I was like friends with first. Right. But she's rad. Right. And I liked her stuff. You know, I liked her like material. You got to.

Yeah. And I just thought she was so rad on stage. It's tricky. I don't think you could ever do it the other way. If you don't like their stuff? Yeah, and also I don't even think I could date somebody that, I don't think I could date somebody and then have them start. You know, it was rad because I already knew her as a comic.

It's hard not for somebody to feel in the shadow of the other or competitive or, you know, like sort of like, maybe you should not do that joke that way. Right. Yeah. But that's not happening. No, she was already, I just like got to see her begin. Do you have wedding plans? We don't have anything planned yet because I've just been like traveling like, oh, also

we need a wife. We realized that after we got engaged. And like, neither of us knows how to do any of that stuff. Oh. Like she's butchered than me. Oh, right. Her last name is Butcher. Right. And it is a and it is 100 true like she so you don't what you're both sort of like who's gonna clean up we're just like where do you get a cake yeah you know like i don't

know where you do that oh yeah i mean i guess like i just never imagined what a wedding would look like no you can find but i can't wait you just hire people to do yeah i know i mean i think like eventually i'll get to the place where i can imagine that that's what's going to happen. Well, so, okay. So now getting, you know, coming full circle around to, you know, your responsibility or your, but I think it's very interesting. I don't want to just boil past it that, you know,

not only the challenge of accepting, you know, being gay and then having your parents accept you, but the deeper wiring of shame and the idea that you've let people down that's got to be ongoing i do think that that's something i still struggle with i mean i think that's the whole reason that i originally started doing stand-up like i was doing improv before and that felt like okay i've always been funny i had like crossed eyes when i was a little kid when you have crossed eyes you better be like how they i had multiple surgeries and i wore an eye patch for eight years of my childhood I had like crossed eyes when I was a little kid. When you have crossed eyes, you better be like. How'd they unfuck them?

I had multiple surgeries and I wore an eye patch for eight years of my childhood. Yeah, this is all true, Mark. Really? Yeah. You were crossed eyes. So they started you with like bottle bottom glasses. Yeah. Well, I had surgery when I was two.

Then I had to wear glasses and then I had to wear an eye patch for literally eight years. What? Yeah, this is all true. Until you were what, 10? Yeah. And then I had surgery again when I was 20. And it worked? So what was between 10 and 20? You just wore glasses? It just like would occasionally cross. So it still wavers now. Like if I'm really tired or something like that or when I used to that's a whole other

struggle so you were the so I was like a little weird looking kid in a weird little body in a place where everybody was kind of like

did they make fun of you nobody made fun of me because I figured out how to be funny you know what I mean like I yeah just be like I'm a goofy

eyepatch kid you know and then like if you're that person you can kind of get in front of it right and I think a lot of comics had like something they were getting in front of that's like why we over developed a lot of comics had like something they were getting in front of.

That's like why we overdeveloped the sense of humor. Sure. Because it's like de-escalating a situation that could be really difficult if we weren't able to do it. Mine has always existed in my head. So it's never, it's a never ending resource. But I mean, that's real too. You know?

Of course it is. Yeah. It's all real. And so i found stand-up because i think it was like i wanted to figure out how to come out to people because you know i don't i you think i look gay i think i look gay but like walking down the street if you go buy a bagel and somebody's like hey but who you buying and you like buy three extra and people like oh who you sharing a bagel with and you have to be like oh i'm taking it home to my girlfriend like

conversationally sexuality isn't about sex, but when you mention girlfriend, then people automatically go somewhere. It's like this weird, it feels like it's too much conversationally, but then you don't want to lie. So you're just always riding this line about how do I navigate the world,

having this thing that's so central to my being that I also don't think is a big deal, but that if I don't talk about it, it's like lying, omission. Well, that's the weird responsibility of it. I mean, how do you continue to own yourself and your point of view? And if you're going to do stand up, like quite honestly, I watched 10 minutes of stand up and it gave me the framework of what I was going to talk to you about.

And they weren't stories. They were just jokes. But even if you want to do jokes that are grounded in grounded in you you got to own yourself absolutely yeah and i think i have to i mean i come out like the second i walk out on stage i try and come out because i don't want anybody to be thinking about it right because then they're thinking and they're not listening you know like you you break down the mechanism of jokes so like i always come out because of like i know i'm wearing a vest like i don't want you to be confused about the fact that i know i look gay i look gay because i'm

gay it's fine we can get through it let's talk about some other shit but if you don't mention it then people are just like i don't does she know yeah does she know she's gay i can't like i gotta tell her she doesn't know i gotta tell her where were you when i was 10 where were you when i was 18 that would have been more helpful then now i know but but in terms so that's really a personal choice but you don't feel like you know like i have to you know represent the gay community i feel i do a little bit feel like that because especially right now everybody has jokes about equal marriage or everybody's talking about it's like in the ether you know it's it's such a big pop culture moment which i give thank you finally yeah it's

great but like when i when i'm on a show if there is another straight comic that does equal marriage material and i don't do it i feel like somebody else has spoken for me. Right. And that bothers me. And that's like, I just, I feel like, you know, because we're a minority still. Right. If gay people aren't speaking on our own behalf, then we're just taken out of the conversation. I don't want somebody else to decide my life. I would like to represent myself. And there you go.

So it's like a kind of a social responsibility in that way. But it's because I want to make the world better for me. Right. You know, like it's very selfish. It cuts both ways. Yeah. Oh, that's sort of interesting. Yeah, I don't, it's very interesting to me too to see that the type of person that resisted

gay marriage so emphatically are really, it's weird because, you know, now that it's happening and the momentum is, it's going to happen. Of course. And, but those people are going to be the same ones that are like, nah, I guess it's all right. You're like, it's a very weird thing am i wrong no i think that it's really strange to travel as much as i am right now because i get the temperature of so many different places i was just in canada i tried to tell some jokes about like you should be okay with equal marriage and they were literally like uh can you stop talking about this? We are fine with this.

And then right before that, I had been in Lexington, Kentucky, in Nashville. They're pretty hip, though. Peoria, Illinois. And I understand. Yeah, they're pretty hip. But at the same time, would it surprise you if I told you that people come up to me all the time and they're like, I've never met a gay person. I've never heard a gay person talk in those cities even. Yeah.

No, it wouldn't be surprising. And then also like in Madison, Wisconsin. They've met them, but the fact that they didn't talk or they didn't identify themselves. They've all met them. Sure. But that's their words. Right. Yeah.

That's them saying, yeah, I've never met a gay person. I didn't know any, i had no idea that well that's well that's exactly why what you do is so important is that it changes the dialogue because eventually with gay marriage it's just gonna be like oh that we're going over to bob and bill's house yeah yeah i'm a human like you know like we're saying with my dad it's like i've you know i feel like i know i know what that person looks like but that was me that was my family so i just feel like once i mean that's what they say right is like if you have gay people in your family it obviously changes your perception but it's also like if you have gay people in your circle in your sphere in your world if you've ever sat there and laughed at like some decently

crafted jokes yeah right and personal stories and i try to be like a little bit sexy about it too but not in like a way where it's sexy for men like i try to be like a little bit sexy about it too but not in like a way where it's sexy for men like i try to be like this is uh you know like i'm a fully developed person and i'm happy about this and there's a sexy element to it like i'm not for you yeah yeah it's mine yeah but but i think that's exactly why it's why the dialogue is important because you know what that speaks to is when people in these places say i I've never heard a gay person talk or I've never met a gay person. That means that, you know, if anything is still existing, it's a closet. And that people feel like it'll be a liability to be, you know, out or even own it publicly.

And that's a shame. And that sort of has to change in order for people to go through what your parents went through. Absolutely. I think that does has to change in order for people to go through what your parents went through. Absolutely. I think that does have to change. And I also think that the reason that that exists is because the jokes have evolved, but the shame is still there. On both parts, I think. There's still a weird lack of understanding, and there's still shame on the part of people that are in the closet or living a secret life. the closet or or living a secret life because they they feel but i i imagine that you know overcoming that fear that's where i think i don't know if it's still a schism about

you know a gay person's responsibility to be out or not is it's still a personal choice but there are definitely people that think you have to be out i feel like personally i feel like it is important because you have to think about the larger picture of the world you have to think about the generations after us but some people are sort of like not in the same way that they don't want to go to the soup line or or or go you know hand out the uh you know the vaccines yeah they're like well it's not my it's not on me i know i mean i don't know if you remember when like jody foster got a lifetime achievement award i think the golden globes was it and she got up on stage and she said like

she didn't want to talk about her personal life so she got really close to saying the word gay but she didn't say it. But at the same time she talked about her mother, she pointed to her kids,

she talked about her relationship with Robert Downey Jr. who introduced her. And Mel Gibson too, right? Yeah. She talked about her life and so I guess it's like

it's not more personal than that. Like I don't want to know you know anything else about I don't, it's not more personal than that like i don't want to know you know anything else about i don't it's not my right to know anything else about what's going on with you i don't need to know anything about your recent relationship and marriage with alexandra hedison because i'm up on my shit but uh you know right you could just say that you're gay because that's the same thing as saying you have a mom like you have a mom and you're also a gay person but yeah but there's i guess in that way the, the, the, you know, the, the non loaded or,

or non sort of like compliant way to say it is like, you know, my partner, whoever it is, my, if I were gay, it'd be like my partner, John and I were just at the thing. Like, I don't know if you have to say like, I still think the word gay is really important. I use the word lesbian on stage because I think it's really important to use the word lesbian. I know that's, I'll start using it. Yeah. I just, I think, I think people still think like,

oh, if somebody calls you... If somebody says to me, I will sometimes be like, hey guys, it's great to see you, to obviously gay women in the audience, and people will laugh like I was slamming them. Right. And then I have to be like,

you guys, no, no. Yeah. This is fine. It's fine that I know those are the gay women like that's fine that's okay it's not a joke yeah I'm not

I'm like totally chill with it well they're just doing that because they're uncomfortable right they don't feel like you're sick but like why are they I mean I think

because the whole thing just has that's gonna take a while I agree that it's gonna take a while I think the whole thing but I don't think that's I don't think that's malicious I think that you know

anything requires an adjustment period no no no I don't think I don't think I think a lot of it is not malicious but I think what I'm talking about an adjustment no no no i don't think i don't think i think a lot of it is not malicious but i think what i'm talking about is just the little ways that we set people up to have more difficult lives yeah like for instance men you know being really confused about what gay male sexuality is like how like heterosexual men feeling like gay or bi men are like after them you know like that there's going to be a recruitment process you know

that whole thing of a dude being like i wouldn't suck a dick for a million dollars like that to me is the best example in the world about how confused men are about gay male sexuality nobody's going to pay you a million dollars to suck their dick i don't know how special you think your mouth is but like that's not happening there's people that'll do that for free that's strutting yeah yeah and so i just think like as soon as we can get beyond that that's interesting i never really framed it in the way that that that's some sort of you know misunderstanding i think that's more of a sort of weird aggressive you know i'm straight statement right but it's because like it would be such a sacrifice like like i wouldn't it's like such a

sacrifice and i think it's just not understanding that like gay men want to suck dicks yeah some i mean some gay men want us yeah yeah like that's not they're not sad about it yeah because they're gay so it's like yeah you don't you don't have to put your you don't have to imagine like but what if i had to suck a dick you like then yeah that would be tough because you're straight yeah yeah it would be a pleasure yeah you wouldn't like that yeah totally it would probably cost a million dollars yeah and that's that's totally fine that's fine nobody wants you to do this i don't know why you think people want you to do this nobody wants you to do anything you don't like why are you even having that conversation with yourself if you should suck your dick

just to see what your price range is yeah yeah you might lower your price yeah you might you might even do it for free you might maybe that's your biggest fear yeah you just want to suck dick for nothing yeah well i tell you i uh you you, I watched the, your appearance on Ferguson because I saw that it got a little press and I do a vague amount of research. But, you know, you know, Leno was there as the guest and Craig was there and they brought you on. And then, you know, you got into a situation that's very rare on television. And because I'm a comic and because I saw it unfold and you can watch it, I found it

very touching. Like I was moved by it. You know, as a comic. I was too yeah i bet i mean it's uh it's really something that you know you you chose you i don't think you saw it coming no it was like it was completely inappropriate for for the situation yeah you're doing stand-up yes you talk about denim leno sitting there on the panel you know they're they're minding their own business watching you. And he stayed to watch me also, which he didn't have to. Right.

He could have left. I thought it was really sort of outside of one weird thing he said. I thought it was a pretty decent appearance for him. He seemed comfortable. Yeah. But so you make a comment about denim, and then you make a comment about him wearing denim. And then I think Ferguson was the one that first shot back. Yes. And he's got no fucking boundaries, that you know and i like him i've done his show i

got no problem with him but all of a sudden you're being heckled in a nice way on your first stand-up appearance on television yeah at the end of your set where you couldn't do your closer no i couldn't do my closer so he heckles you yeah and then jay chimes in and then i think it was an interesting call for him to bring you over. I think it was the right call. Me too. Like he could have said, all right, go ahead and finish. No.

But he knew. I couldn't. How could I have possibly topped? What was the moment? You know what I mean? We're in this moment where it's like to do stand up when you have a moment. Right. Just stay with the moment.

Well, yeah. I thought you did real good with that. I think that you. Oh, thank you. That you reacted to them and you gave it back to them and you got a laugh and it was all handled it could have really went south yeah if you freaked out i agree i mean i i i will tell you in the moment i first of all i was just you know you played with other comics right that's who you want to sure love what you're doing and so like working in the line about jay because he happened to be on the show i was like oh i'm so excited i get to

do this you know and then when craig was interacting with me it feels like heckling but it also feels like kind of like a hazing thing sure in a respectful way you know like we i love the hierarchy of stand-up it's one of my favorite things about it like that you and i are not peers and i have to look up to you and that's because like no but i do i believe that like you put in the time you pound the pavement yeah respect is so is so important it's like such a beautiful part of our career is you know the way that it's it's not necessarily our nature no no but i love i love how right we have this job that is like just completely irreverent yeah and still we have so much reverence for each other and like that's such a cool thing about it yeah yeah so when they yeah when it comes right down to it we

do have reverence you know like maybe like you know talking to each other's and fuck that guy but but still we could even hate each other's stuff. Sure. Like, you know, you can find another comic that you just like, I hate their stuff. But you can still respect their. Right. And Leno is certainly taken. Like, you know, he's like the Jesus of stand-ups. You know, like this guy was like the best stand-up in the world. Yeah.

Now you can't find one stand-up that likes him. He took his licks. Absolutely. And the fact that, well, it was just sort of interesting that, like, you showed up for it. You stayed in the present, you know, and they brought you over. And then, you know, you scored on the couch, too, next to them. And then they both get, you know, politely giving you your props, which you deserved at that moment. And it was something I'd never seen before, really.

I don't think anything like that has ever. Well, I'll also say, like, in terms of comedy, that's such a weird. It's so weird that a late night appearance would happen like that. Yeah. With the two hosts also. I don't actually know that that, I can't imagine that happening again. I don't know how that would happen. Oh, with Craig and Jay there.

Like, there's two hosts and then there's a first time performance and there's banter back and forth. And Jay actually says, you're the future. Yeah. White men are out. Yes. Old white men. His last line is, he goes, lesbians rule.

And then it's just like worldwide pants. You know, like, then the show is over. this is on cbs you know like mainstream the most mainstream network like the fact that this is all happening yeah is wild but i also kind of thought i fucked up how come because i thought that i deviated from like the script that i gave them and that they were going to be angry with me i know this sounds so silly they fucked you up they are the ones you threw you i know but like when I walked off stage, like I had so much fun in the moment. I was like, this is great.

And the moment I walked off stage, I like went up to the guy who books it and I was just like, I'm so sorry. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, I'm so sorry about that. And he was like, he was like, are you kidding?

That couldn't have been a better thing. So I think that was also a learning experience in realizing like that television can also be real. Because I think when you're first doing stuff, it feels so unreal. Well, a lot of the guys now, like Craig, he's the loosest of them, but he'll get you off your marks. He was really the only guy that would have done that to you. Absolutely. That was a unique situation.

But yeah, they're loosening it a little bit. It used to be really scripted, but now with the talk show, when you do panel, it's a little bit sort of like, yeah, just roll with it. I'm like, really? That there can be some moments like that. No, yeah. It's cool. They love it.

It's like when that happens, it's almost like, you know, hey, everyone's awake for a second. You know what I mean? They're just hoping that happens. Yeah. Well, I'm glad it happened for you. And if people want to watch it, you can go find it. If you, Cameron Esposito Ferguson, I imagine you can find it, right if people want to watch it, you can go find it if you, Cameron Esposito Ferguson, I imagine

you can find it, right? Yeah, it's right up there on the old internet. Well, I'm proud of you. You didn't

disappoint me. Oh, Mark Maron, thank you so much. And it's great talking to you. You have beautiful things in

your bathroom. You have gorgeous male hair products in your bathroom and everyone should know. No, he's got the right stuff. Oh, come on.

You got the right stuff, baby. They they're all gonna know everything i like talking to her she's solid man solid solid act solid person that's our show go to wtfpod.com slash calendar check all those tour tour dates. I'm coming. I'm coming to you. What else? Get some justcoffee.coop at WTFpod.com. Get the WTF blend. I'll do a little kickback on that. A little on the back end of that for Uncle Marky.

A few shekels coming my way. What else? Leave some comments. Get the app. Get the free app. Upgrade. Upgrade to the premium app upgrade upgrade to uh the premium app listen to everything got a live show i haven't done one of those in a while live show on uh on thursday live from uh from pod fest i know that some of you find the guitar playing jarring but i'm still

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