WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 577 - Conor Oberst

Episode Date: February 15, 2015

Conor Oberst is a virtuoso singer-songwriter, known for fronting bands like Bright Eyes, Monsters of Folk and Desaparecidos. Now with his first solo album under his belt, Conor sits down with Marc to talk about the intangible nature of writing songs, the difficulty in being compared to Bob Dylan, and the frightening period of his life when a false accusation turned everything upside down. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life.

When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series streaming February 27th exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. It's winter and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs, mozzarella balls, and arancini balls? Yes, we deliver those. Moose? No. But moose head? Yes. Because that's alcohol yes we deliver those moose no but moose head yes because that's alcohol

and we deliver that too along with your favorite restaurant food groceries and other everyday essentials order uber eats now for alcohol you must be legal drinking age please enjoy responsibly product availability varies by region see app for details all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fucking ears what the fuck sticks what the fuckadelics how are you this is Mark Maron. This is WTF. This is my show. I welcome you. Right out of the gate, my guest today, Conor Oberst. Some of you know him as Bright Eyes. Some of you know him from Monsters of Folk or from the Desaparacidos, who are reuniting to release their first album in 13 years later this year. Desaparacidos. Yeah reuniting to release their first album in 13 years later this year. Desaparecidos. Yeah?

How's that for a name? But today, he's Conor Oberst on my show. His recent solo album is Upside Down Mountain. We'll talk to him in a minute. So, I know most of you know about my tour, but I feel like I should run it by you. I should run it by you i should run it by you again if you don't i'm touring i'm doing a massive tour starting at the end of march really officially march 21 20 and 21 at the um rochester new york the comedy club i'm doing four shows to get in gear to get

my brain in the right place thursday april 9th warner theater washington dc friday april 10th the trucadero, Philadelphia. Saturday, April 11th, The Wilbur in Boston. April 16th, The Barrymore Theatre, Madison, Wisconsin. April 17th, Carnegie of Homestead Music Hall, Pittsburgh. April 18th, Royal Oak Music Theatre, Royal Oak, Michigan. April 19th, Bluma Appel, Toronto, Ontario. April 25th, Fitzgerald in Houston, Texas.

Fitzgerald's. April 26th, Southside Music Hall, Dallas, Texas. May 8th Fitzgerald in Houston, Texas Fitzgerald's, April 26th Southside Music Hall, Dallas, Texas May 8th in Neptune in Seattle May 9th, The Vogue in Vancouver May 10th, Davie Symphony Hall San Francisco, California May 14th, The Orange Peel in Asheville, North Carolina

May 15th, Charleston Music Hall Charleston, South Carolina May 16th, Variety Playhouse, Atlanta, Georgia. And May 17th, Joy Theater in New Orleans. Tickets are selling fast. So I better pull it together. I've been up against the wall before. This is how I work.

Push myself up against the wall. And then I line about nine of me's facing me with guns. And I have a blindfold on. And I say to the nine me's, wait, please, can you just give me a few minutes? I think I have something to say that will save my life. I think I have something to say

that will prove that I'm innocent of being over. And I make my case. And then they let me off. They put their guns down. They say, like, they let me off. They put their guns down. They say, well, you still got to go before the judge. And that motherfucker, just another me, just sitting up there on high like he knows what's going on, he's a little difficult because he passes judgment

in a way that's not definitive. It's more sort of like, you're not guilty, but you should feel guilty. Yeah, all right, great. God damn it, man. Everything's all right. All right. I cooked a real chicken. Don't recommend it. A real chicken, like a real one. Not like one that was in a cage, not a free range chicken, but like a chicken that was just out in the wild chicken. And you know what? I think if more people ate the real thing, like just the chicken that's out in the world, less people would eat chicken. More people would be vegetarians because it's

stringy, it's weird, it's muscly, it's a little bit gamey. And that's like the good stuff. And I was like, can I have my sad, fat, caged chicken or mildly free range chicken that's like the good stuff and i was like can i have my you know my sad fat caged chicken or mildly free range chicken that's been fed something to make its uh thighs and breasts too big but then i felt bad about that putting that chicken through that but i'll tell you the the out in the wild real chicken chicken that had a life a little rough a little rough to eat a new uh a new cat has arrived somewhere i don't know where he came from there's a couple of new cats around deaf black cat i think is gone and i don't know what to do about that i'm processing i'm a little sad but i think he's done i haven't seen

him haven't seen him around the neighborhood a new black cat has has shown up this cat is a motherfucker can i say that sorry kids this cat i don't it's like the it's like the equivalent of a cat pit bull in its intensity it's got this huge ass head and it's got this muscular body and it's got these huge balls which means like i don't know if and it's got a massive scar on the back of its head. This thing is, it's just a tough fucking looking cat. He's pretty friendly. I think he's somewhat peopled, but I don't know what to do about those balls. I mean, I guess he's not coming around every day.

I guess I got to get that taken care of because like, I'm afraid it's going to fuck me. That's how intense this cat is. He's coming over and he's eating and he's just stalking around looking for something to fuck. And that's trouble. Most of the cats around here are fixed. There's another little dude around that looks exactly like an older dude I have. I don't know where that guy came from. And they just, I don't know how they make rounds.

I need to, I wish I knew how cats lived. But this black cat, it is a badass looking cat. And I feel bad because there's part of me knows I got, those balls have got to come off. And I don't know if I'm the guy to do it. I don't know what kind of relationship he has elsewhere. Maybe there's a dude, I picture maybe a Latino dude down the street that loves this cat,

that loves its big balls, and that it's a badass cat, and then I'm going to trap it, get his balls cut off, and he's going to go back to his buddy, and the guy's going to be like, where are your balls, yo? And then he'll be ostracized

for not being as macho as he once was, and then maybe his head will get smaller and then he'll just be hanging around here wondering what he should do with his life like me except i'm busy very busy i have a full life but yet there's part of me that's sort of like what am i going to do with my life what is that about god damn man it's fucking crazy all right so let's uh why don't we uh why don't we talk to Connor Oberst now, and perhaps he'll play some music for us as well. I believe he... You can get anything you need with Uber Eats.

Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs and mozzarella balls, yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats. Get almost, almost anything. Order now. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details.

Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global bestselling novel by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life. i die here you'll never leave japan alive fx's shogun a new original series streaming february 27th exclusively on disney plus 18 plus subscription required t's and c's apply well will.

Come on, man. When you take the stage with big shots, you don't get any moment of insecurity? Oh, I mean, of course. Yeah. It's never easy to be like, just trying to... No problem. Yeah.

I'm just up here with Bruce Springsteen. Yeah, exactly. I'm just up here with John Prine. Not an issue. I can handle it. Exactly. I saw you over there at the Greek.. Not an issue. I can handle it. Exactly. I saw you over there at the Greek. You were at the show?

I went to the show. Cool. Well, here's the thing. I've known about you for a long time. And then when we had the opportunity to talk, I'm like, well, now I really got to find out about him. Sure. So I had to go back to when you were a kid.

So you're fortunate in that you're talking to a guy that is very up to speed on songs. They're very fresh in my head. Some of them for the first time. Okay, cool. Like the Bright Eyes records, I listened to Fevers and Mirrors, Lifted, and Casadega primarily. Okay. And the last two solo albums. Is that good?

Is that a solid foundation? Sure. That's a great starting point. I asked these two little girls, who I think that at the time you first started doing the Bright Eyes records, must have been the primary support of what you were doing. Yep. Because these girls were like, well, they must have been like 25, and one of them recognized me or something.

And I was like, so are you big fans? They're like, oh, yeah, I mean, since middle school. And I'm like, okay, what should I listen to? They're like, oh, Theft and Fevers and Mirrors. Those are the ones. Nice. Those must have been the ones that planted the seed, man. Yeah, I would say Fevers was definitely like the first, I don't know, breakthrough,

the one that people heard first, I would say. And was definitely like the first i don't know breakthrough the one that people heard first i would say and wait how old were you i would have been 19 so what is so when did you start playing i mean because you were you got some notoriety before that album though yeah i mean my first very first i guess quote unquote records which is really a cassette tape i was like 13 years old. Right. And me and my friends had like this little kind of make-believe label, and we made our cassettes and sold them at the local, you know,

the one cool music store in town. And how did that become like, you know, the moment? Who decided this guy's got something? Well, I got to give credit to a good friend of mine, you know, the moment, who decided this guy's got something? Well, I got to give credit to a good friend of mine, this guy, Ted Stevens, who's been in a lot of amazing bands. He had a band called Lullaby for the working class, like in the 90s, that was rad. And then he still plays in cursive, blah, blah, blah. But he was the first one. I mean, he's probably four or five years older than me when I was like 13.

He was the first one. I mean, he's probably four or five years older than me when I was 13. And he heard me play a couple songs. And then he offered to bring his little Tascam 4-track to my parents' house. Yeah, man. And recorded my first record or whatever. At your parents' house? Yep.

Where, in the basement? In the bedroom? In the attic. In the attic? Yeah. In Nebraska? In Nebraska. What part of Nebraska? Omaha. Omaha. I have no real point of reference for omaha nebraska i mean it's an average you know uh

midwestern kind of town it's pretty though it's kind of lush in nebraska isn't it it's well so omaha is on the far eastern side so it's on the missouri river so yeah the our downtown butts up against uh this town called council bluffs in iowa and so it's sort of Missouri River. So our downtown butts up against this town called Council Bluffs in Iowa. And so it's sort of, they join there. And it is pretty. It's like the Missouri River Valley, so there's some hills and stuff. The rest of Nebraska, as you go west towards Denver,

of course, becomes truly a desert wasteland zone. Yeah, I think I drove through part of Nebraska once. I got some friends. There was a music scene up there in Omaha, I think, or Lincoln, right? Yeah, yeah. And they're close together like lincoln's the college town and omaha is like the one real city and they're like you know an hour apart yeah i knew a couple guys come through there like buck naked was a guy that you ever hear that sort of like a rockabilly outfit and they ended up in the bay area but or something like that i don't think

he's around anymore that's like calling your man free beer or something you know yeah give you a lot of shows it was buck naked in the somebody's i don't know i don't that i don't remember what it was that isn't actually the name so you started playing guitar when you're what um like 10 maybe and do did your parents give you the guitar yeah my dad was a my dad is a musician was a musician he I mean, not professionally, but he had a cover band that would do all the sort of weddings and dances and stuff. So he was the multi-instrumentalist. So he did some keys and he did some horn and some guitar and backup singing. Oh, he did everything. Yeah, and they just played like the 80s.

So they played whatever, Maneater or whatever was popular at the time, and he would learn the parts. And that was kind of supplemental income. What was his regular thing? Mutual of Omaha. He was just kind of middle. A dude in the office? Yeah, he worked there for, whoa, like I don't know, 30 years or something. Did a lot of people, I guess a lot of people worked there.

That's the big one I mean there's that there's like Union Pacific is the other the railroad is another big one in Omaha in Omaha

and like Conagra which is like you know a huge Monsanto shitty like food thing so sure agribusiness

exactly yeah sure just grow that shit as fast as possible yeah and without bugs no matter what the cost

exactly and then of course we got Warren Buffett who's the other kind of big... He's trying to be a good guy now. He's throwing some money back.

He is. He is. Yeah. Sometimes they get old, they get soft, they got a lot of money they don't know what to do with.

Totally. Maybe it's time to help out. Yeah, yeah. His daughter Susie Buffett is a pretty amazing person. She's like friends with my mom and does all kinds of great like, great things for people.

And what'd your mom do when you were growing up? She worked for the Omaha Public Schools. She was a teacher and then eventually a principal. So it was good. So you had a father that at least had a dream at some point and somehow held onto it, and there was enough instruments around the house. I mean, no, they were so supportive and awesome. I mean, I had my first band

when I was like 14 or something and we even signed to a label in New York and like, I mean, they were crazy enough. As Bright Eyes? No, this was called Commander Venus. This was an even earlier band. Somebody signed you at 14? Yeah. You're like, we got these kids

in Nebraska. Yeah, it was a cool label actually. This label, they're no 14? Yeah. You're like, we got these kids in Nebraska. Yeah, it was a cool label actually, this label, they're no longer a label, they're called Grass Records

and they did a bunch of cool stuff in the kind of early, mid 90s like the Rens and a bunch of like Sunbrain

and a bunch of bands. What was that first guitar? What was it? High one? I had a, I don't know, I actually had a, the uh ovation with the uh curve back the curve back because my dad had a big beautiful old dreadnought martin that i could when i was first starting to play i would try to play it but my

my arm like couldn't make it over the top yeah and so when i when i was when once they realized like okay i was like taking it serious enough and it was like you know whatever christmas whatever and they got me this you know the littlest thinnest one that i could kind of get my my arm around so and what what wasn't the inspiration initially because i know you get you know they you get uh comparisons hung on you that can't be helpful in any way. Yeah. The last thing anybody wants to be is compared to Bob Dylan in some ways. I imagine it's flattering, but after a certain point, you're going to be like, oh, boy. Yeah.

That was a tough one. I mean, I think that in music journalist shorthand, that's like you know code for they have a lot of words in their songs or and they write a lot of them yeah and they're in there yeah or it's a weird voice it's hard to get used to prolific yeah and so but yeah i mean there's worse things to be called i suppose you know but it it is a bit because when when it's funny when people read something like that about you like in a magazine, they take the step to think that you're saying it about yourself. Yeah, well, you know.

It's like, no, I never said that about myself. Right. Somebody wrote that and then a thousand other people asked me about it. Well, it's tricky because like, you know, I was trying to figure out, you know, what is it about what I thought about you that didn't necessarily like lock,

why didn't I lock in earlier? It's a tricky thing when you're an earnest cat because you're pretty earnest dude you're not a fucking goofball sure you know and that comes across i am a goofball but maybe not in the music yeah yeah but do you are you aware of that i mean uh sure yeah i mean i actually think that there's more humor in some of my music than people realize they can hear but Because you're too intense? Yeah, maybe. I mean, not so much on the early records,

but I mean, in later records, I would say, yeah. Yeah, but you're aware of that. Sure. Yeah, because when you're young and you're prolific and it means something to you, that's just a moving target for bullies and people that aren't making it and critics. Sure.

And I mean, our stuff was, I think, there was a slight reaction to when I first started going to shows at like the little, one little punk club or whatever in town. And there was that whole kind of 90s wave of like super slacker. Yeah. Like everything. It's kind of getting back to that, but everything had to be ironic. Everything had to be kind of like, I don't really.

No effort. Yeah. I don't really play guitar. I don't really do this. Right't really do this right i just do this because it yeah well i'm serving coffee or whatever right and to me i always felt like if you're once i decided i want to do this for my life and i was really gonna do it when was that i mean 14 maybe not quite i mean i was yes i always wanted to do it from when i started i did i always assumed eventually i would have to do something else because it might not work out like financially or whatever but um i guess i always felt like if you're gonna take it if you're gonna do it like there's nothing wrong with taking it seriously and like trying your your best and sure so if

if you're 14 what was the process of writing for you then and what were you trying to do i mean what were you listening to that made you go holy shit there's power in that yeah it was definitely it was it was actually a local thing um because there was this one great record store called the an aquarium which sadly no longer exists but that was where we would all go and who's waiting uh like my brothers and our friends how many brothers you got two older brothers oh so you had the gift of the older brother yeah yeah yeah oh man that's helpful when you want to learn about music oh absolutely yeah and then like and then you know kind of their groups of friends would let me tag along and the dude at the store i bet yeah yeah yeah yeah so there was yeah there was a certain novelty to the fact that i wrote songs. Right. And I came in there and I was really little or whatever.

So they let me kind of bum around. And he still makes amazing records. I always try to talk about him because he's sort of a hidden treasure. But his name is Simon Joyner. Uh-huh. And he's amazing. I mean, he's probably made like 20. He worked at the record store?

No, he was a songwriter in town. Okay. And big early influence on me. Still to this day, I always wait. He puts out a record probably once a year. He's still local? Yep, yep. Have you taken him out with you?

Yeah. Yeah. Several times. He's got like a cult following kind of all over the world. Very famously once John Peel, the famous DJ, played like one of his albums, Start to Finish, which I guess he had never, or he'd only done a couple times

in like the history of his show or whatever. But anyway, he was a local guy that really meant a lot to me and I sort of tried to model myself. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What was it about him though?

What was the, you know, there's something about those local guys where you're like, there's that, there's the excitement of like, you know, there's something about those local guys where you're like, there's that, there's the excitement of like, you know, no one knows about this guy. And he's like the best. I mean, to us it was kind of the opposite. It was like, he's the biggest.

Oh, really? Yeah. I mean, in like, in my, you know. Oh, so now it's changed. As you get older, you're like, wow, no one knows. I know. And truly he got me to, you know, he got me to probably those other songwriters like Townsend Zant, like Dylan, like, you know, Prime, like whatever. Just all those kind of true sort of.

What was his, what were his themes? What was his style? What would you compare it to? I would say it's, you know, it's definitely folk based. His first, his early records were just guitar and voice and then he since then he's made a lot of records with bands and folk is tricky isn't it i mean it's it's because would you consider yourself a folk musician from the start because those bright eyes records aren't really folk records i mean i i actually i actually would

in the sense of like when I think of my songs, the song itself is hopefully sturdy enough to exist apart from whatever arrangement or whatever production you put onto it. That's right. And so for me, the song is obviously the vocal melody, the chord progression, and the lyrics. And I think if a song is worth its salt, you should be able to play it just on a guitar or on a piano and it should still make sense. You can overproduce it and put some drums on there.

And we've done a lot of that, you know, but yeah, I always think of it as kind of like, you know, once the song exists, it's like standing naked in front of some kind of giant walk-in closet and there's like a million outfits you could dress it up in. Well, I think that's true. I think that's what's interesting about, about you know even watching you the other night that you know the choice for whatever this tour was was it struck me you know once it really got going

and on some of the faster tunes that you know it's a country band really yeah i mean we had the pedal steel and everything going yeah i mean you know you had the whole thing and there was that that kind of romping one four five thing sure that is sort of like that's like honky-tonk music yeah yeah so the choice was but then i realized like as a singer songwriter it's it's an interesting place to be because that is for and for that's foremost what you do and then you're sort of like well what what's gonna what are we gonna do with it yeah and it's really up to you and it seems like you've chosen a lot of different things. Yeah. You know,

it's hard to pigeonhole you. I will. I mean, yeah, I think that for me, a big part of keeping the excitement and making records is, you know, collaborating with different people and trying, you know,

just experimenting within, you know, I think it has to make sense. Like sometimes like just experimenting to make something weird. Isn't that interesting to me but if you can experiment and make it cool and different but still keep the essence of of the song and like well it was sort of like i like that about the bright eyes records is that you know there are these interludes of uh conversation or phone messages or things but i always like it i

know i don't know if it was calculated but i was listening to it the day before yesterday one of the early records where I'm like there's always a chick around there's always a chick around like either like talking or laughing

but it just seems like there's at least one or two girls hanging around the band well we've had a lot of girls in the band over the years yeah there's vocals

on some of those yeah yeah yeah so yeah we've been blessed to know a lot of pretty badass female musicians so when did the struggle begin with whatever the hell it is you were trying to solve with your words because

do you know um yeah i mean i think it's still it's still happening you know because like i was i i listened to the words and i'm not a big lyrics guy it's weird i don't know why i'm a melody guy and i'm really that's a probably surprised me just because because i'm a wordy guy yeah i'm a thinky guy yeah well but the primary problem is if i can't understand them pretty easily and i got to go back over and over again like like i've been recently trying to write some stuff but yeah i've written poetry and i've written a book and i've done that yeah but songwriting is a whole other animal you know, and there's some part of my brain after, you know, 25 years as a comic and doing this, I'm sort of like, no, I want to write some songs.

So I was listening to what song craft really is. But it has to be, they have to be upfront for me to lock in. Gotcha. Like, I got to be able to hear it. If it's a problem, like, I never understood why so many records are mixed so they're like why can't you understand the vocals well it's most of the time that's because i think people are insecure about their lyrics you know so that's i mean that's kind of another sort of thing in like whatever modern bloggy fucking music that that's annoying to me sometimes where it's just like there's so much of that reverb and

drenched on the voice right and i get it like the shoegaze whatever but it's like to me it's like the sign of kind of a self-conscious singer that doesn't want to be doesn't want to have anyone have a chance to critique what they're saying or their idea i mean i've always been attracted to songs that you yeah you can maybe walk away with and and still latch on to the melody but you can also walk away with like ideas you know like it's provocative yeah like a leonard cohen song or well you know paul simon song or something you walk away and you're like whoa like you're thinking you're like thinking now about right about things you know there's room in between there's a well leonard more than than paul there's it's sparse so you know it's going

to provoke whatever it's going to provoke. But you do a lot of very good turn of phrases. And it seems like from early on that your sense of emotion and relationship and spiritual struggle was fairly strong early on. Is that something you gleaned from listening to other people or was that, like here's what I'm getting at, is that when I write a poem or you work a piece of music, something that has structure like that,

it becomes almost like an equation, an emotional equation. So like I guess my question is, did you reveal yourself to yourself as you wrote or were you like i feel this way and i'm gonna you know i think it was probably more the revealing as i went along or not no i mean clearly not knowing what i was doing so the words were surprised you're like holy shit yeah yes and they spilled out in very sloppy ways for a long time and i think just through trial and error of having written you know hundreds of songs at this point i have decided things that i like and i've got to the

point where i'm better at going back and uh you know revising and a lot of times nowadays i'll write us i'll i'll have us you know i'll write 10 verses to a song. And then the three that I like the most make it into the actual song. Right. When I was younger, it would be like, it's done. Do all 10, man. Yeah. Like, all right. That too.

Cassette tape doesn't cost much. Yeah. They make those like 90 minute jobs. Yeah, man. That can be two songs on there. You know, let's just open it up. man. Jobs. That can be two songs on there.

You know, let's just open it up. But, but in terms of like, you know, heartbreak and, and dealing with, you know,

fragile people and dealing with, with the, the sort of, like I noticed there's a few songs about, you know, what seemed to me to be, you know, relationships with,

with people that, that are, you know, maybe nuts. Yeah. Stuff we all deal with. Sure, sure. But do you remember,

what was the first song you wrote about? Well. Was it an experiment or were you trying? You have an urgency to certainly who you were when you were younger and I still saw it a bit on stage the other night. There's a bit of a rage there sure yeah i mean i think um i think the early the very very early songs surprisingly aren't it's not that different

from the way it is now which is you have these little observations that you pick up throughout your daily life yeah whether it's a conversation with someone or maybe something you see on tv or read in the paper or whatever just these little sort of things that you pick up and notice and then for me they kind of collect in the back of my mind and sort of my subconscious and then you know the i think that the miracle or whatever of creativity is the way that those things all blend together and then come out in these songs that I still can't sit down and write a song. If you were to write me a song in a half hour or something, I could probably make a song, but it would be not good. Right. And so much of it is waiting for that special kind of inspiration that comes.

So just a couple of it sometimes even. Yeah. You got a notebook with you and you just chase them down as they hit you. Yeah. And it's like some, yeah. Or just some image that like sticks in my mind. You know,

I always feel like the, a lot of times I'll, I'll sing a song to myself or have an idea for a song. And then I won't, I won't get to the tape recorder. I won't get to the guitar. And then the next, by the next day it's gone. know one of those are the worst one of those i couldn't find a pen damn it you know yeah but i've kind of come to terms with that in the sense of like i feel like

well maybe those are the ones that weren't meant to be because i find that the the ones that stick with me that i actually can't shake and those ideas i can't shake are the ones that make for better right so you can actually build out from an image like you know like you know if you have a moment where you're like holy shit like a little piece of you know fragment of poetry yeah or just something i saw like when i wrote a song um one time after i had gone to uh the uh the pharmacy slash liquor store which i love how they're the same yeah thing yeah and uh you know i was like going like with you know my girlfriend at the time whatever and like going

in to like get our vodka or whatever yeah and there was those you know those the drive-through lines where people get their medicine yeah out of the window and i was i i looked over into the window and i was like what's that that? So weird. That's there. There's a little, there's an old, old man. Look how tiny that old man is. Yeah. And, and he just looks so strange to me. Like he must be, you know, I don't know.

He looked like an old, a little old man. Yeah. And then we came back out and I saw him again. I'm like, that's a little kid. Oh yeah. That's like a little kid with like. A disease. Yeah.

Like that's like a different thing. like a disease yeah like that's like a different thing yeah then when i first you know what i mean yeah yeah and like that was a thing where i just couldn't shake that experience you know and that i didn't go home and directly like write about it but that was one of those things that stayed in there and then eventually like what did it become it's called danny callahan it's on my records but yeah i listened to that song yeah i mean it's just kind of in one of the verses of it but yeah as a example of something that just sort of like you see for a split second but then it well it's interesting because like watching you in prime and you know and thinking about like even towns that you know there are dudes that that do

thinky stuff and then there are dudes that tell stories and and you know like a folk guy is going to do a little of both but like i noticed that you know you you're i think you lean towards the thinky could be could be yeah you know what i mean because like even the in in the on the new record the song about the kid you know that that growing up song that's a sweet song sure that seemed like uh like almost like an exercise in that type of writing for you yeah that song that's a sweet song sure that seemed like uh like almost like an exercise in that type of writing for you yeah that's that's definitely more of what's that song uh you are your mother's child yeah that was an anomaly i mean that was one i wrote originally for a movie that was about you know kind of a father and his relationship with his kids i was

trying to write a song from the perspective of this father that's essentially singing about his son, and obviously in a loving way, but sort of saying the reason you're so good and the reason is that you are your mother's child. Right. Not me, man. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And so it's kind of like the little twist at the end where it's like you see that this is a guy that maybe hasn't been the best father but he still has a lot of love you know

for his kid so that was actually an assignment almost kind of project yeah I would say

that one you like that song I mean that was one that I had I wasn't sure if I was gonna put it on the record

because it's definitely more on the sentimental tip and it's yeah it's definitely more on the sentimental tip. Yeah, it's a bit of an outlier. But I do like it. I mean, I think at the end of the day, I was like, you know, I think it's good for what it is.

I don't know. Sure, sure. Yeah, yeah, man. Well, I mean, if you churn out as many songs as you do just sort of innately, how do you know when you, which ones do you love and why? Like, if you look back. I mean, I don't spend a lot.

I mean. Sometimes you play them. I do play them. I mean, if I was to pick, like, okay, one of my favorite songs I've written is a song called Cape Canaveral. Yeah, I like that song. Yeah. Yeah, that's one that I, I don't know, I mean, I'm kind of picking at random, but that's one that I feel very good about the words and the way it came together. And the sort of elements in the chorus and, know the span of uh of the lyrics yeah i like

it that yeah it's you know it's impressionistic for sure and it's sort of yeah it's meant to kind of i don't know fly by in a way that's not completely like linear but i like that so like you seem to wrestle with uh there there seems to be points of contention with you you know not just politically but with um with religion and with uh the you know the idea of uh of of religion that you know like i it seems like a lot of the songs all throughout your career are sort of trying to find that space if that space exists there's a lot of equations that you set up poetically that end in the present like you know like we got this we got this but the now is where we're at yeah i think that's probably true um you know i mean yeah i went to uh grew up catholic school

and all that did you grow up believe in it i mean again my parents were always pretty cool so i remember the first time i could really make an argument beyond, like, I want to sleep in on Sunday or whatever. Yeah. Then my mom was pretty cool to let me. I mean, I remember, like, I don't know how you grew up, but in Catholicism. Very easygoing Jew is how I was brought up. Well, because Catholicism, there's, this thing called confirmation when you're like, you're like you're 12.

Yeah. I guess it's like bar mitzvah type vibe. I get it, yeah. And so, I remember in the, I think you're in sixth grade or seventh grade

or something. You're pretty young still. And, but it's, the idea of the sacrament or whatever is that you, you are now an adult

in the eyes of the faith and you're taking it on as your own. And I remember saying to my mom, I don't believe in this. I don't want to do this. And she was like, well, you're doing it for your grandmother. You'll get your clothes on.

Do it for grandma. And that was it. And that was the end of it? Yeah. But where do you stand now? Because like I said, there is an urgency towards the idea of sort of, I don't know if it's figuring it out, but wherever your emotions are going within a lot of your songs, there seems to be some need for something beyond the song.

Where do you land with that as far as like spirituality like sure and you know i mean you talk about fate there's a song that you did the other night that that taught you i think you introduced it yeah uh questioning the idea of fate yeah i think it's still something i i think about you know i think that's just a big part of the human condition. I mean, I'm definitely, I think that organized religion has reaped all manners of evil upon this world. And I wish in a lot of ways that it wouldn't exist.

I mean, I think- It's also given a lot of people a place to go on Sunday. And that's true. No, that's true. You know, I, yeah. And, you know, it's whatever works for everybody. You know, I'm not- No, no, I mean, I get your drift. Yeah. But like, you know you know i yeah and what you know it's whatever works for everybody you know i'm not no no i i mean i get your drift yeah but like you know where did you ever like because

i i noticed like there's something else i noticed that when i was thinking about even the career dylan and in in your two solo records that's where i sort of realized that you know the songwriter is going to be the songwriter first and foremost and then you just got to figure out you know how mature you want that music to be behind you in the sense that you know how is it going to fit where i'm at in my life now sure even your old songs you know you're choosing this band they're solid ass band you know and then you choose songs you're going to play just you know on the guitar yep and uh you know but they're like you know dylan would sort of publicly and i think uh who else well not towns he didn't last long enough but you know leonard cohen has sort of evolved into to a bit of a buddha of sorts and

and you know there is something as you get older that you know you you start to you know uh either get comfortable with or not you know where have you landed with that stuff on a day-to-day basis and keeping your shit together um or you don't think about it i try not to think about it too much i mean i i guess i'm like you know a humanist i think that like you get what you give kind of thing and and the more love and and uh positivity that you can promote just in your own life amongst your own friends and family and in it and if you can strangers you know the more that you can give that positive energy i think it it is returned you know i don't know that's kind of a maybe a hallmark way to look at it but well i mean do

you still feel like do you struggle with um depression or anything yeah i mean but doesn't everybody to a degree yeah i mean it's just like because i i just know that like who is i talking depression or anything? Yeah, I mean, but doesn't everybody? To a degree. Yeah. I mean, it's just like, because I just know that like, who was I talking to? Maybe it was Maynard from Tool or something. He said that if you don't believe in magic a little bit, it's hard to be creative. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I still think

the wonder and the mystery of things is one thing that keeps me going. Like the idea of not, if someone was like, what are you? Are you an atheist or agnostic? I wouldn't really want any of those labels, but I guess I would say I'm agnostic in the sense of

I do think there's things beyond the human scope that we just don't know. Thank God. Yeah. Thank God. Yeah. Thank whoever. Yeah. And I don't know about an eternal soul or life after death or all that shit. But I do think we are part of an energy, a greater energy beyond ourselves. Yeah.

And that there is a way to live. There is a better way to live than other ways. Sure. I'm not. Have you made some mistakes? Sure. Of course. Of course, yeah.

But, you know, try to learn from them and try to learn. Well, that's where the songs come from. They got to come from that after a while. Yeah. Right? Yeah, totally. So when you think back on, you know on the guys that you like to listen to, like Townes, let's start with him.

What was it that impressed you about him outside of this profound heavy heartedness that's almost hard to listen to? Yeah. I mean, it is some of the saddest music ever made. But I guess just the way it makes me feel in my heart. Which song gets you? Well, I would say, there's so many. You know that song, Miss Carousel?

Fairly Well, Miss Carousel? It's on the first. Uh-huh. Well, and that's one of my favorite bangers but um I mean even the song as famous as it is

but Poncho and Lefty you listen to that song and it's I mean it's like there's those songs that come from some other world you know like

Mr. Tambourine Man or something you know there's these songs that like where it's just like this yeah it's like there's I don't know

I mean it's easy to be like it's some divine channeling of whatever and I don't know that mean it's easy to be like it's some divine channeling of whatever and i don't know that that's true but i do know that some people are able to touch these things these these these these jewels these like yeah well they come just like you said they come you know watching tv yeah like i think that like you know like a lyric unlike anything else it's just sort of like you can really start with a line and not even know why.

Yeah, totally. Well, Townes, you know, claims he like dreamt that song and he didn't know what he said. He didn't know what it's about, but it's like,

yeah. Why not? Why not tap that shit? Yeah, totally. I mean, have you ever, have you ever,

have you ever written stuff from dream? I have, I, I did have one song. I mean, I've dreamt music, but as far as one that actually was like I could remember and make into a song. It's a song of mine called Lime Tree. And in my dream, a friend of mine who is not a singer at all. He's never sang.

I never heard him sing. And he was in my dream. he was singing this song and he had the most beautiful high, like angelic voice. Yeah. And he sang like the whole like verse and chorus, like in my dream. Yeah.

And I woke up and I was on the, I was on the bus. I was on in the tour bus and I popped up in my bunk and was like, and got, I got out and I got my guitar and I sat in the back lounge and wrote it pretty much start to finish. With the lyrics that he sang? Get out!

Yeah, so that was the closest I got into something like that. Did you tell him about it? Oh, yeah. Yeah, what did he say? He was stoked. Was this a childhood friend or not a music guy? It is a music guy. It's this guy named Nick White.

He plays in bands, but he's just like a piano player and stuff. So I had never heard him sing. Oh, my God. That's hilarious. And what about like when you listen to Dylan, you know, like which song kills you? Because I know like a couple of Dylan songs that kill me. Like Visions of Joanna is like, what the fuck? Yeah.

And It's Alright Ma. Those two songs, all the answers are in those two totally there's yeah it's all right ma is the one i think uh you ever see that uh that uh ed bradley interview he did like 60 minutes the dylan interview he did kind of like this is like in sort of recent history i mean i guess maybe 10 years ago he's hard to talk to but yeah and, and then he starts- I did see that actually. But it's an incredible interview, but he starts quoting that song. And he's like, you try to do that.

He's like, that's magic. That's not Sigfroiden, Lorde magic. That's real magic, you know? That's what Dylan said? Yeah, it's like something like only something he could say, but he was like, you try to do that do that well i think he's sort of like i think he eventually became kind of rightfully you know defending like you know i don't know where this comes from yeah but i'm the guy that's delivering it yeah yeah and he also he also says in that some in that interview

about how he's like i i can't i can't do that anymore yeah like i can do other things but i can't do that he got more sparse yeah as he got older you know like some of that later stuff was pretty good i mean i still think uh time out of mind like one of his best albums it's a great record the production on thing is trippy man you feel like you're you're you feel like you're in the like some sort of tunnel yeah that you know they you know that the light's dimming at the end of like that was the first time you realize like no dylan the, like some sort of tunnel. Yeah. That, you know, that the light's dimming at the end of. Like that was the first time you realized like, no,

Dylan knows he's running out of time. Right? Yeah. There's, there's a beautiful, like swampy heaviness to that record that's in like all the, cause I think that's a Lenoir one. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Those reverbs and stuff just really take you into a different world, you know? What music did you grow up with primarily like what was your old man into outside of practice and his cover tunes i mean they were like you know fleetwood max duly dan um you know jonah mitchell jackson brown

you know yeah some to a certain degree like definitely neil to a certain degree dylan and stuff and like neil ev. Neil. Definitely Neil, for sure. Oh, and Paul Simon. Paul Simon's solo records, even that first one. It's one of my favorites. It was right at the hood. The greatest record, man. I know.

That song, Duncan, kills me. Yeah, that whole album is beautiful. It's crazy. My parents used to play that on the A-track when we were kids. Yeah. So it was plowed into my head. Yeah. But A Piece Like a River.

Oh, yeah. What the fuck? Oh. Long past midnight curfew, we sat starry-eyed. Yeah. Yeah. So sweet. Like something about that song, Duncan, about that guy getting laid.

Yeah, getting into the tent with the hippie girl. Yeah. I was literally in the back of a station wagon as a kid going like, I know what's happening. Yeah. It was like a turn on. Yeah. God damn.

Yeah, there's a lot of great ones. But you seem to have some other influences that kind of ring throughout the music all the way, like a little rap, a little punk somewhere. Absolutely. I mean, the stuff, like I was saying, from that record store and this place in town that was like this little hole-in-the-wall punk rock club. Right. We saw a lot of, I guess, what you'd call punk or hardcore, indie rock, whatever the hell they called it at that time.

But there was definitely a lot of that and like, you know, deep love for like replacements and, you know, that kind of stuff. Sure, man. Yeah. like replacements and, you know, that kind of stuff. Sure, man. But you, like, you do, but it doesn't seem like in listening that, like, I noticed any real attempt at a pop hook, per se, but it didn't seem to concern you that much early on. No, I wrote, for a long time, none of my songs had any words that repeated.

So every chorus would be different words. And that was intentional. Kind of. Or maybe one line would repeat, but for the most part, I was trying to, yeah, use every last bit of real estate for more words, you know?

Yeah. And so I didn't, it was a long time before I sort of realized there's something nice about going back to a refrain. Right, yeah. There's something nice about going back to a refrain right now yeah there's something nice about repeating some words sure um gives people a chance to sing along yeah give the people a chance to sing along yeah and they're folk musicians exactly and they can feel and it can feel really good to get back to that spot you know but I also I also get bored with like you know obviously on top 40 radio and stuff where there'll be there'll be this line you know but i also i also get bored with like you know obviously on top 40 radio and stuff where

there'll be there'll be this line you know the two two lines of a verse and then you're back yeah of course and then like now we're back to like the fifth chorus and it's the same words and yeah repetition and now and now they yeah and now they're now it's like they didn't even sing it five times they sang it once and then they put it all in there. Cut and paste and it just sucks, you know. It does suck. And it's hard to like, it's hard to relate to that stuff. And I think it is, I mean, there is like a human psychological condition about, you know, familiarity is equated to enjoyment.

Like in the human mind. Sure, sure. If you repeat things. It's comforting. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, there it is again and that's the way i mean that's the way all all you know commercial radio works is they play you know they now they play the same whatever it is 16 songs however many times a day i don't even know what it is anymore and so it couldn't even it could matter less what the song

sounds like because for people that listen to like terrestrial radio they're they're gonna hear this same sure cut how many times yeah to the point where it's just like i like i must like this yeah because i know it yeah they keep playing it yeah and it's like a nice comfortable shoe and then people must like it yeah i must not be alone yeah they keep playing it totally it's weird i've had some experiences listening to classic rock radio uh in in recent times i got in the vinyl again where where i'm completely surprised at how many of some artists songs i know and just how fucking much better they are than i ever thought yeah like like you ever do you ever have that moment with credence where you're like what the fuck yeah i mean they have amazing and

that guy meant it man he's saying his balls off And like some of that stuff is like raw, dude. Oh, definitely. Yeah. Yeah. Who do you like to hear when it pops up on the radio? You know. Are you a Petty guy? Oh, I love Petty.

Right? Oh, it's love. Did you ever play with him? I love Petty. I have. And I know Ben Ma a little bit. Sweet guy. I haven't been there.

Yeah. And I've been able to see some great Petty shows, but no, I haven't never met Tom himself. But you did play with Bruce. I played with Bruce, who's an amazing, gracious, awesome person. And he's an interesting guy, I would imagine, for someone like you, who was sort of like, kind of had to come around full circle to sort of see himself as a folk musician. Like,

cause I think he, he likes that. Like, like as he got older and he did, I mean, he had the new, he had the new Dylan thing thrown on him, you know?

Right. But he was coming from such a tradition of like, you know, like East coast R and B. Totally. That's sold. That for a greetings for Asbury park, which I love is like,

it's like a soul record. It's almost like a Van Morrison record yeah it sounds like a fucking Van Morrison record yeah it's that you know that song

For You there's a song called For You yeah For You I came for you but you did not need my urgency

that song that's a banger you did not need my urgency yeah those are like yeah you got a lot of

lines like that just these little lines you're like oh jeez that must have hurt that guy yeah it's fun it's fun when you can when i like writers that don't always they don't always kind of telegraph their punches you know they'll be like they they kind of got you yeah yeah and then like yeah yeah this one comes like subtle yeah yeah yeah yeah and then that one comes out of the blue and just like right and sometimes it's not like uh it's it's just the it's just the precision of it yeah it's not may not be an elaborate word but the emotion is yeah it's like it's like boxing man yeah that's what it is yeah turn in the phrase yeah that's like boxing yeah was was a lot of your compulsive it seems songwriting when you were

younger to sort of you know kind of manage anger manage darkness manage frustration i guess so i mean i i always i always felt and still feel that to me um a lot of my day-to-day i i feel like i have a pretty pretty scatterbrained you know like i i'm not like a i'm not like an airhead but i i definitely my mind wanders a lot and prone to daydreams and right maybe not paying attention all the time yeah and so writing is a form of for me to kind of get to some clarity you know and, and if I can put it down and it makes sense to me, it doesn't have to make sense to anyone else, but if it makes sense to me, it makes me feel a little more, you know, attached to this reality. Sure. Than I. Hands on.

Yeah, then it's a force of good for myself, you know. You're not drifting off. Yeah. In the head. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. it's a force of good for myself you know you're not drifting off yeah in the head yeah yeah exactly i know that one where you're like i don't talk to anybody dave too and i'm okay that's the scary part i'm okay not talking yeah but is your your brothers in the music racket too um no my bro my brothers are not in, they don't play, or they don't, they're not in the music business.

My, my, my, my one brother, Justin helped start the label very, very early on. But after that he, um, you know, went on to like law school and yeah, he lives in DC and does like, uh, is he a good guy or bad guy? Is he a good guy or a bad guy? No, he works for a, he works for a like environmental consulting law thing, which sounds like a good thing, but I think sometimes they- Trying to bend the rules? Saying there's some of that. Yeah.

I mean, he's a very good person, but he, I think his job and then the nature of the beast out there is pretty crazy. And what's the other brother? And the other brother is a teacher. All right. Yeah. And your folks go around. Yep.

They have now moved to the East coast to be closer to the grandkids. Yeah. And, uh, actually one of the things I feel best or one of the, I guess an accomplishment I suppose I feel good about is I was able to my dad from because i always had stuff going on like taxes and record contracts and stuff i didn't understand when i was young and he uh he would just do all that stuff for me because he don't want me to end up you know in jail for like tax evasion so he helped me and did that for years and years while he worked at Mutual of Omaha.

And then one day I got to the point where my other manager manager was like, okay, now you need to get a business manager. It's just, you have to. Right. I know, I just hit that myself. Yeah, it's like, it's getting stupid to not have one. And I just asked my dad to do it.

I was like, dad, will you quit your job and I just asked my dad to do it. I was like, Dad, will you quit your job and I'll pay you a salary and you can do all this stuff that you're already doing for me but you won't have to go up into the Indian in the Sky building anymore and be up there in that weird cubicle.

And he took the gig? He did it. Dad's on the payroll. Yeah. That's good, man. And it's awesome, you know, because it's, you know. You don't have to worry about it. Exactly. Yeah, it and you get along with him and yeah and he's like the most uh you know pragmatist like midwestern like solid dude so

like i'm always like why shouldn't we be able to like get around some of this like yeah tax stuff got it got pay the government government got to do your part it's your civic duty well it's interesting when you start making money you know where your politics end up that's where

that's where that's where people change you know you know that's where idealism idealism you know dies at the tax man

it's true I can remember getting my first like advance for like a publishing deal when I was probably like 19 or something. And I don't know what it was like $50,000 or something. And I thought I was the richest person that had ever lived. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you get about 20 of that. Yeah, exactly. And then I remember that being explained to me like, well, actually, yeah.

that being explained to me like well actually yeah and i mean it'd be one thing if it was like oh we all had beautiful public schools and like you know yeah swimming pools and yeah uh whatever for like everyone to use yeah roads that worked and right public transportation but that's not the case hard to track that money i know that you didn't get right yeah and that's when it and that's when yeah it does does become political pretty fast because you're like what the hell like what that's you know let's do something

with all that besides like build bombs to like you know whatever yeah well I mean

but I think that's interesting it's not whatever it's interesting to me that other band that you have your rock band what's that called again

Desperadositos yeah we've only made one record and it was back in like 2001 or two and

and but we're about to make a new a new one what's gonna happen it's gonna happen next year now what do you see that project as

what can you do with them that you can't do on your own well it's a band it's a real band in the sense of it's the same five guys yeah and it's

everyone has their role and we write those songs we write all together like in the sense of it's the same five guys yeah and it's everyone has their role and we write those songs we write all together like in the band room you know the other guitar player is you know kind of more of a riff bass guitar player so he comes up with these cool right rock riffs and then we all start playing loud and i start screaming nonsense and then eventually like i write words to match the melody. But so, yeah, I guess it's more of, you know, being together and all of our ideas, you know, combining to make that band what it is. But it is very, all the songs are very, you know, topical.

And I wouldn't say they're all political, but they're all topical. Well, the weird thing is about, you you know folk music and the sort of populist responsibility of you know what was the you know certainly the the woody guthrie side of the folk movement sure it kind of kind of hangs on it kind of leans on you guys a little bit like at some point you get to you got it you're going to hit that juncture where you're like i better say something for the people yeah to the people yeah, there's a social responsibility to folk in a way. Yeah, well, back in, you know, 2004 or 5, I had this song called When the President Talks to God. And it wasn't on a record or anything.

And I wrote it after doing the, we did the, because you were part of the whole Air America thing and all that, right? Yeah, I was there. So anyway, there was that Vote for Change tour, which is when I was on tour with Springsteen and REM and John Fogarty. And we did all these shows and we were trying to get Kerry and that other guy elected. And we, you know, it felt, worked really hard, my heart was in it. I was young, naive, and wanted to work out. And it didn't. And I was, of course, devastated.

And I remember I had just finished my record, and I was going to Europe to do a press thing. You know, you got to go to these straight press tours, press tours, which is like my least favorite part of it. Go and just get interviewed in all these different countries. And that was at the height of just like the Europeans, definitely hating Bush and Iraq war and everything. Rightfully so. And he had just got reelected and I was just like, man,

I'm going to go and this is all they're going to want to talk about. And I was, it was, I was very bummed out. But Bruce being as sweet as he he is, called my cell phone. I'm at the airport. Springsteen? Yeah, to get on the plane.

And he's just like, Connor, go over there and you tell them there's half of us that don't believe in this, and there's a real America over here, and we're going to fight really hard. He gave me this pep talk in the airport, which is so cool. And I was like, all right, Bruce, I'm going to fight really hard. You know, gave me this like pep talk, like in the airport, which is so cool. And I was like, all right, Bruce, I'm going to do it.

So I cruised over there and I like basically on the plane. And shortly after I'd landed, I wrote that song really quick and it's a terrible song. It's not a good song. It's just kind of like a talking blues. Yeah. You know, fuck George W basically.

Right. But it felt like, like, as you say, like an obligation, like I felt like i had to do something to uh you know just it was more of a commercial for like the idea that there are there was another there was a whole another half of americans that felt the opposite sure now and

trying to like but you got you got orders from the boss exactly the boss called you before you made the trip exactly do you still have that relationship with him? I mean, whenever I see him or run into him, he's always gracious and awesome. Like, he played Omaha once, and I was there, and he, like, got me up on stage and stuff. So, yeah, but, I mean, we're not, like, chatting on the phone all the time or anything. Well, it's interesting, because Dylan was very good at balancing all that shit and coding it in, you you know sort of broader existential terms you know like he was he was really kind of amazing at at being vague and concise at the same time you know and i think you you nail that too sometimes like you know it could be about anything you're going to take that lyric and you know it's going to go in like you said before it's going to provoke whatever it's

going to provoke in you yeah and there's i think the truth of it is is that the political and the personal will always be intertwined yeah yeah and so if you can tell you know a human story and maybe the subtext is a political issue yeah but you can figure out a way to communicate that to a right to a listener without you know being so on the nose which i've been you been not so successful at on some of my songs, but that's just part of learning about that stuff. Yeah, but you write so many. And you're growing up. You're growing up in public.

You're growing up with your music. I mean, not everybody starts at fucking 15 and has to somehow wrangle that shit. Yeah. I mean, you're like your grown-ass man now. I know, baby. 34. Yeah, and you got married. Yep. What was, you're like your grown-ass man now. I know, baby. 34. Yeah. And you got married.

Yep. What was that bullshit you had to deal with with that crazy girl? Yeah, it was a very surreal. How did that unfold? Well, somebody wrote a very horrible lie about me anonymously on a comment section. Yeah. And then the sort of- Accused you of rape.

Yes. Some girl. You don't know her. No and the blogosphere went crazy went crazy and did their thing and uh yeah it was it was you know it was very painful it was very how did you like the world was like upside down for a little bit and i just kind of did you detach from it what were you instructed to do a little bit and i just kind of did you detach from it what were you instructed to do well um eventually we filed like a libel lawsuit yeah um and uh and then eventually she recanted and said that it was all a lie and it was a hoax and you know it's anyways it's amazing how quickly yeah i mean it taught me a lot about about i mean i've never i've always sort of hated the kind of depravity of our current internet culture the feeding frenzy yeah the

predatory feeding yeah and the way that people you know it's just there's zero journalistic standards to anything so none so it's just it's basically a game of telephone yeah that goes on yeah oh yeah but like No one's credited. Yeah. No facts are checked. Exactly. Yeah. And so, yeah, it was really hard. And at this point, I'm just kind of trying to put it in the rear view mirror.

I mean, there's still like echoes in my mind for sure. for sure sure um but i also want to you know i want to put in perspective because you know i think about all the uh many african-american men who are in prisons right now for crimes they didn't commit you know and for actual victims of sexual assault right that has done the greatest disservice yeah to right you know and you know, they say one out of four women will experience sexual assault in their lifetime. And like that's staggering and fucking horrible. So just something about those feelings, you know, that, that, you know, falsely accused by just, I mean, does that, has that played into any songs?

You know, I, I really haven't written any songs. Like I don't, I don don't i think i'm still processing it you know i think you write from that place though have you written about like outside of poetic personal experiences but you know like real struggle are you gonna how long you've been married uh it'll be four years in december has that informed your love songs yeah i mean again i think your whole i think life experience is going to play subconsciously into yeah into that creative process i mean definitely being married has i think made me a more patient like happier person yeah like less in a less rushing around

like feeling like manic about you know i was just a workaholic for years and years and years you know yeah and i didn't think i you know breathed yeah music all the time yeah and now i've gotten to the point where i realize you know there's other important you know as important things you're gonna have a baby world we got a puppy oh yeah you're gonna have a baby you're gonna have one i don't know you got it I didn't have one it's a I don't know man I mean talking about all that

and like technology in the future it's it's not it scares me you know I don't like to what about love though Connor

you know sometimes you gotta bring it in I know they say that and like well you gotta have kids and raise them right

and all that but I don't know I just see these like, they're all kind of half robots now, like these little like toddlers with their iPads. You don't have to do that. Go off the grid. I know.

Go buy yourself a house in the hills, man. Go to the mountains. Make it sparse. Yeah. Yeah. But what was that song that I listened to about the freedom and love? Is that on the new record?

Yep. That's a good one. Yep. Yeah, freedom's the opposite and love, the, hey, what, is that on the new record? Yep. That's a good one. Yep. Yeah, freedom's the opposite of love because you can never keep it through your paranoia. Yeah. Which I think is true. If you love someone,

you're always worried about them and everything. That's interesting. And with freedom, you're just sort of like, what does it really mean, right? Foot loose and fancy free. Kind of, yeah. I mean, but in a bigger sense, what're just sort of like, what does it really mean, right? Footloose and fancy free. Kind of. Yeah, I mean, but in a bigger sense.

What is the cost of freedom? What is the price of it? And what is it really? Yeah. It's a big shit. Yeah, and it's definitely alluring. The idea of, and I feel like I lived that way for a long time where I was just, not that I didn't have obligations, but I could kind of do what I wanted whenever I wanted. And I didn't stay in a town for more than like a few weeks at a time, like literally for years.

And, yeah, I guess I don't care to like really do that anymore. I don't care to really do that anymore. Well, yeah, the loneliness of that, of not being anchored or making those kind of commitments to the other person and having that trust and building that stuff. I mean, it depletes the meaning of things. It's like there was that song that the road, what is it?

The road will cure. What is it? The road. Nothing the road cannot heal. Yeah, yeah. But you know, that's weird. And that might not be true. That might not be a true statement.

Well, no, but healing is an interesting thing because that doesn't mean that you ain't going to be scarred. Right. Yeah. So, I mean, I think it holds. Totally. Totally. Well, I love that town's line where he says, there's nothing prettier than looking back

at a town you left behind. Yeah. That's one I've said to myself many a time. Well, let's end it there, man. It was good talking to you. Thank you. We're going to play a song, right? I'd be happy to.

All right. He's my friend, but he's no friend to me Just ask him why he'll tell you casually Just ask him why he'll tell you casually. Washed up, bitter, broke and busted. Backstabbed everyone he trusted. Says he sees what no one else can see. But if I had half his guts I'd want it To chase that fatalistic comet And die young in the dark, that's poetry But it was not to be, no it was not for me He's always sad, but I've never seen him cry

He's always sad, but I've never seen him cry. When he comes too sure, he'll apologize. Find his car, assess the damage. Still drunk, but he likes a challenge holds on to his mind just like a kite but a good strong wind will keep you honest fill you with some common knowledge things when we were young we never tried I figured we had time For such a long life Money clips, alligator shoes

Just one more dance, he's in that champagne room Where she moves like a chocolate fountain in that champagne room where she moves like a chocolate fountain pouring, spilling all around him makes him wonder what else she can do but how bittersweet is love's illusion Feelings that cannot be proven Just trust me, you'll see my aim is true

I've done this all for you I suffered long For you So many times he tried to play it straight He just worked and worked until his body ached But a brand new life will lose its luster Troubles tend to find each other Call it luck or you can call it fate But either way it's how it happens

Not the life that you imagine. So just go out with a bang like Hemingway. Some will say you're brave. Some will say You ain't Yeah. Awesome, man. Cool. Sounded great.

Thank you. Thanks for doing it. My pleasure. That was nice. Guys got a knack. Got a knack for that songwriting. Connor Oberst does. Go to WTFpod and do all your WTFpod needs.

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