WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 586 - John Doe

Episode Date: March 18, 2015

John Doe was there at the beginning. When American punk rock was taking shape, his band X was at the forefront. John talks with Marc about being a young poet who fled Baltimore to immerse himself in the LA punk scene, where he experienced the rise and fall, and then the rise again. Somehow he wound up with roles in dozens of films and TV shows along the way. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Calgary's on the right path forward. Take a closer look at CalgaryEconomicDevelopment.com. Lock the gates! Alright, let's do this. How are you what the fuckers, what the fuck buddies, what the fucking ears, what the fucksicles, what the fuckadelics? And what the fuckhawks? Like it just came out of me. Don't know where from, but that's what happened. Welcome to the show. I am Mark Maron. Thank you for being here. And yes, I am a little sick.

I am battling something for a change. I did not pace myself well. I got done with the shoot and I scheduled, you know, months ago I scheduled work right away because I'm a fucking idiot. So now I'm worn out and beat up. I haven't even been able to sleep right since we stopped the insane schedule of shooting. And then I got some sort of heinous cold and now I'm off to Rochester as we speak. I'll be at the Comedy Club in Webster, New York in the Rochester area if you want to come.

I'll be doing four shows there. And I will be battling a cold during those shows and reacquainting myself with the hour I've been doing before I started shooting and probably having some sort of mild meltdowns during each show, which is a signature hook of mine when I travel on the road. Which show is Marin going to lose it? And is he going to pull it around? That's the name of my next CD.

Is he going to pull it around? I don't know. Could take 25 years. I jest, kind of. I'm jesting a bit. Perhaps not. I think it's going to be a good weekend. I'm excited to get back into the trenches.

And of course, when I go, it looks like it's going to be raining, maybe snowing. And then I'm thinking about going down to New York City for a couple of days, do some business, and it's probably going to be raining and snowing there because it's been that way ever since. Every time I've gone there. Now, look, I'm not complaining. I know a lot of you guys have been through a lot of stuff through the winter. It's been difficult for you. It has not been as difficult for me out here in the beautiful weather of Los Angeles. But I do like it to be nice when I travel to the Big Apple. Anywho, did I just say that? I'm embarrassed. Anyway, today on the show, John Doe of the band X,

who I was thrilled to talk to, quite a history. What a fucking amazing band that was. He'll be forming this weekend in the L.A. area on Saturday. He's at the First Unitarian Church in Los Angeles, along with Exene of X and Robin Hitchcock, another genius been on this show. You can also see the three of them Sunday in Solana Beach at Belly Up.

Man, that's good shit, man. That is some good rock and roll there or whatever they'll be doing. Some form of it. It takes many forms to rock and roll. All right, relax, man. Relax. What else is happening on the personal front?

Well, yeah, I'm a little sick. I'm eating a lot of oranges. I got this thing in my mouth that I'm not going to freak out about because I've had it before. And I don't know anybody else who gets them, which makes me embarrassed to talk about it, which means I'm going to fucking talk about it. I'm going to fucking talk about it with you. That's right. You, maybe someone can identify with me. I've never felt so alone in a weird

ailment than these things that happen inside of my mouth. What happens inside of my mouth is sometimes if I bite my lip too much, or like I bit my lip in one spot a few times, it got all fucked up. But then what happens is somehow or another, one of the thousands of salivary glands you have in your mouth, one of mine will get clogged or crushed and create what looks to be a blister, but it's not. It's a clogged salivary gland. And that means I have to go to an oral surgeon and have it removed, taken out of my mouth. Now, I've talked about this with people, and they're like, what the fuck? And I'm like, no, doesn't this happen to you?

No, it doesn't. So if someone out there has had this, where they get that little balloon of a clogged salivary gland in their mouth that they've had to have surgically removed, I would like to know so I don't feel alone in the world. Could you do that for me? Or else I just feel like some freak. I made an had to have surgically removed, I would like to know so I don't feel alone in the world. Could you do that for me? Or else I just feel like some freak.

I made an appointment to get it taken out. And I asked the woman, I said, is this a common thing? And she's like, well, you know, it's not that common, but people it happens to, it happens to. I'm like, that was not helpful at all. Oh, here's some interesting business. I got a piece of written mail and a CD in the mail. Hello, Mark. I lived in blah, blah, blah, blah, blah before you. That was my address that I didn't read. Like that

matters. To cut to the chase, my wife just brought home your book, Attempting Normal, from the library. And we were laughing at your description of the garage. And then in parentheses, it says, you should have seen it when we bought the place. So I thought I'd send along this CD that I recorded in there. Broken concrete is hard to set up drums on, but we did. That's right. Before I put this temporary floor in, it was all shattered concrete.

Not sure if it's your kind of thing, but thought you'd dig some history. My buddy Richie Hayward from Little Feet recorded with me in that garage. Hope all is great in Highland Park. Your book is great. Keep on keeping on. I knew he was a musician, but I didn't know this album, Wildflowers by Connie Price and the Keystones,

was recorded in this garage. And it must have been something because there's like a lot of dudes in this band. There's horn players and everything. And that happened in here, and I didn't even know it. And the dude from Little Feet was in here jamming too. In this garage! So it's been a magical place before. I was in the records really good.

Really good. The guy who is behind me has this open field in the back and he just randomly creates starts projects. Just mysteriously sawing things. making piles of stuff planting things it's interesting i wish i had a hobby field that's what i need you need a hobby

a hobby field you guys i gotta be honest with you one of these days i'm going to disappear into the wilderness i think i've talked about this before. I'm going to Jeremiah Johnson my life. Just head out with a heavy jacket of furs and a beard and find the open wilderness. Do some trapping.

What is happening? What is happening? Why is that happening? Why is it coming through my computer? What is happening? What is happening? Why is that happening? I can't. Why is it coming through my computer? What is going on? When did the phone start coming through the computer? My God. That was jarring.

The band X is one of the great L.A. bands. It's one of the great, I guess you would definitely call them a punk band. But L.A. punk, American punk, fucking rock and roll. X was a great fucking band. And John Doe is an amazing musician and songwriter. And he's here with us today. And we're going to talk to him right now. You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats, but meatballs and mozzarella balls, yes,

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You lived in Mount Washington with Egg Zine in the 80s. Yes. But it was pretty, it was sort of nice. It was nice up there, right? Oh, yeah, it was nice. But like... pretty, it was sort of nice. It was nice up there, right? Oh, yeah, it was nice. I mean, Highland Park was nice. But I mean, up there, it feels like when I go up to Mount Washington, the only thing that scares me is there's only one road down.

Yeah. You know what I mean? To stay up top at the Self-Realization Center and watch it all burn. Yeah, exactly. You know, that was a sanitarium. It was? Yeah. That place up in...

It was like a... The place up at the top of Mount Washington was like a dryout center for all the big shit movie stars. No kidding. Like back in the day. Yeah, like in the 20s. So we're going to hide them up there, and they won't be able to get off the hill, and just wait till they get better.

Wait till they get better from there. And who knew that would become one of the biggest businesses in the country? The drying out business. So you lived up there, so you know this area. Avenue 45. Yeah. Yeah. And now somebody else that knew us, Sean Wheeler from Sean and Xander.

Yeah. They're a folk duo. Yeah. And Sean was in the throw rag and stuff like that. Anyway, he was doing a recording next door to the old house. It was like, hey, I cut some of the palm fronds on that tree. That's why it looks so freaking good. Watch out for the castor beans.

They'll poison you. They'll kill you. You know the place. Yeah. But I'm sorry i was so hopped up when he came in you know i got hop it up i don't know how to handle new equipment i felt like i was very uncool when you first checked in i'm like i got a new guitar that's uh you know i bought a piano that's 200 bucks it was like 100 bucks with a piano and 75 to um to deliver it

where do you live now i live um in the east bay richmond oh up up no uh north really yeah that's nice yeah i haven't lived in la forever i mean did you run away from la i had to leave los angeles uh no i didn't run away I just like at the point, you know, I worked in with X for years and years and then I did two movies like pretty close together. Yeah. Great Balls of Fire and Roadhouse. Right. And it's like, I, fuck, I can, I can buy a house now.

Yeah. Oh, wait a minute. I can't buy a house in LA cause it was 1986 or something like that. Yeah. And there was a top of another real estate boom yeah and so and i didn't i was done you know i was done with it and fried yeah just it was no longer inspiring and so um my wife at the time and i moved up to the grapevine but you're still friends with xene oh yeah yeah we're partners that's that's great it is great and do you have

kids thick and thin do you have kids with both of them no no xene and i never had kids but uh i have three daughters that are just awesome and it's but you know i i have to i i qualify that yeah so like kids are wonderful yeah but everybody shouldn't have them and it doesn't complete your life and and all that other bullshit that i haven't especially well especially new parents that start going all goo goo about um you know and maybe i'm just too selfish i don't know how old were you when you had your first kid oh uh older like 34 right but not 50 like i still haven't had one yet there's no part of me that's sort of like no maybe i can yeah yeah maybe you could maybe i could i've been in a relationship with with uh

with my current sweetheart yeah uh for seven years we've known each other for like 13 yeah and um and uh we had a conversation several years ago that luckily only lasted about a couple days yeah you know off and on and it's like and she said i had a pretty rough childhood and i yeah that's fine with me she's several years younger than me which is oh so this is the third one third long term yes okay so you had the the three kids with the one in between yes okay i got it i got it so she's good yeah she's she's fine i actually just saw her last night at a dance recital in santa cruz my youngest daughter was part of a dance oh that's exciting she's going to santa cruz she oh she just finished

there yeah that's a trippy school man it's a great school yeah it's so beautiful it's beautiful down there it's a little a little wild vibe in santa cruz the town is wild yes the town is like like what's going on wide open yeah wide open that's what they used to call like back in the you know cow puncher days oh that place is wide open about a psychic level i think you can get whatever you want in santa cruz exactly pretty much whatever you want but on some level you've got to these days, have these moments where you're like, holy shit, I survived. Oh, yeah.

I mean, I can't imagine. I'm so grateful. Whatever happened, what was it, in the late 70s, early 80s in this city, was crazy, man. I mean, a lot of people went down. Yeah. Like, during the time, and then not so, I mean, there's a song that I play called Ready, and it's kind of a tribute to Jeffrey Lee Pierce and Darby, I mean, there's a song that I play called Ready. Yeah. And it's kind of a tribute to Jeffrey Lee Pierce and Darby and Elliot Smith.

I was kind of friends with him too. And I will introduce it live and say, you know, I'm not wishing ill will to many people, but all the Eagles are still alive. So are Fleetwood Mac except for the the good ones and um you know is it just better health care you know because like there's a lot of fucking punk rockers that are dead i it's sad and scary but do you do you have a you come up with an answer for that no i think it's better health care yeah you know it's like they got rich and they could take care of themselves but also it seemed that like at the time like i was listening to the the first four x records you know uh over the last couple of days and i listened to uh fire love i listened to gun club still

and uh it's a great record oh my god yeah but like i think the answer is is that you know what was at stake for you guys you know what what you were chasing was different it seemed like like these these studio musicians and these guys that evolved into like fleetwood mac or say the eagles they you know they were looking to to live large yeah and it just seemed like the hunger during that punk scene was not about that no it wasn't it was about pushing the fucking envelope i think um embarking on on writing a book okay i am this guy uh tom de savia a friend of mine and i are gonna work on a book and we're gonna do a la punk rock history book right but we're gonna get uh xene and keith morris and and a bunch of other people who were there uh alice bagg and and uh terry graham from gun club and

all these people chris d from the flesh eaters we're gonna get each of them to write a chapter i've written a couple tom's gonna do some intro and because he's a like a publisher yeah and and but all but but it was a fan in like a 15 16 year old that it scared the shit out of him but they holy shit yeah and then but i'm hooked right you mean oh my god this is oh fuck they've got razor blades in their boots or something you know and it's fast yeah but where'd you come from originally baltimore that's where you grew up pretty much from third grade on my my dad was a librarian really yeah a very uh uh ambitious librarian so what does that mean

he it means he ended up being like a big administrator. He was the head of Brooklyn Public Library at the end of his life. And you have a big family? You come from a big family? No, just one brother. Both my folks are dead. And what's the real name? Oh, it's Czech.

It's a Czech name? It's a Czech name, and it's Dukac, and it's spelled all backwards. But then I changed it to my mom's maiden name so my kids wouldn't have to suffer for my sins. And at least my mom's maiden name is Danish, and so it's at least phonetic. It's online if people need to know. Sometimes they'll say it's Hitler, but I didn't think it would do so good in the entertainment business. It might have been great for punk rock, though. Yeah, I know. So what compelled you to come out here? the entertainment business it might have been been great for punk rock though yeah i know so

when what what compelled you to come out here did you how far uh when did you leave baltimore uh the end of 76 how old were you 23 were you already playing back there oh yeah when bar bands play you know played like the the the band and neil young songs and you know, played like the band and Neil Young songs and, you know, Rolling Stones songs. Yeah. Like American catalog. I wrote, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and I wrote poetry.

I went to Antioch College in Baltimore, which was just totally hilarious. You went all the way through? Yeah. Yeah? Well, I quit. I went to George Washington for a year. Then I quit for like a year and a half and put on aluminum siding and roofing and all kinds of lovely things. You're going to be a working man for a little while? I was.

And then I thought, this sucks. Yeah? This is terrible. Yeah. No, I just wasn't interested. And I played music. What was your degree in? Poetry and American literature.

So that was your thing? That was my thing. I ran a poetry reading series in Baltimore called the poetry project. I'm realizing now that I was seeing it in, uh, uh, with a little bit longer view. I was seeing it like, no, then really. And I think that, that the people that the other people like Darby and the other people that were in these in, in a lot of bands that were just like you know fucking teenage runaways they were just in it for the kicks and just like let's tear this shit up right let's just see what happens and i don't give a flying fuck about

anything and and i didn't in a rebellious like i'm gonna stick it to the man or i'm i don't i don't you know like this whole corporate rock thing that's going on, and there's too much money, and there's too much extravagance. This is what you thought. Yeah. It's all deteriorated into bullshit. And I saw Talking Heads in New York, and I saw The Heartbreakers, because my folks lived in Brooklyn. Oh, my God. That must have been awesome.

It was great. Were they on it? Oh, hell yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The Heartbreakers were such a game changer for Oh, my God. That must have been awesome. It was great. Were they on it? Oh, hell yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The Heartbreakers were such a game changer for everyone, it seemed. Yeah. You know, that was when Richard Hell was still in them.

But I realized that, and I was so sick of the East Coast. Yeah. I mean, I love John Waters. Right. And he and I were, you know, kind of acquaintances then. How would you know him? Just from hanging out in the bars in- Oh, in Baltimore? In Fells Point, yeah. Yeah. he and i were you know kind of acquaintances then and and uh how would you know him just from hanging out in the bars and in fells point yeah fells point now evidently now is all full of

yuppies and and you know frat boys and bullshit like that but uh then it was just uh you know edie and mink stole and mary vivian pierce and david lockery and and all the you know yeah people that were you know the bums that would come in there and like they were all stories that i'm sure i'm positive there was one bum that used to uh masturbate while we played oh yeah he'd stand over in the corner he'd have this big long raincoat on and sort of bounce around it's like huh there's johnny there's johnny he's doing he's doing his thing i don't want to know what that thing is it's like in san francisco like don't look over just keep walking there's nothing to see there. Just keep walking. But I was just sick to death of the weather and the people.

And, you know, when you get too many ghosts and too many, like, oh, I remember that bad time I had there. And, oh, that's this. You know, and the East Coast can be really, especially Baltimore. It's like the good part of it was you couldn't put on any airs yeah so it's like oh wait a minute are you from balmer yeah oh yeah i thought so yeah yo yeah you're you're fucking nobody yeah you're fucking nobody because you're from balmer yeah you know like and then you know so so you got run out by ghosts no yeah but that was great because people just did art for art's sake they didn't they

couldn't capitalize they couldn't you know yeah the point being is that you didn't you wanted to live i want yes i did i think it's a very nice thing uh the living thing is the nice thing um and there were definitely guys back then that were gunning for it. But I think I had an idea that this was an extension of the beatniks and the psychedelic era and, you know, like some sort of, it was an extension of some kind of art. Punk was. Yeah, not high art, but art, like Andy Warhol and John Waters. And stuff, you know, it was like popular art.

And it's like, I think the Ramones and all of us, we wanted to be famous. Right. We wanted to be popular. But so like- And then the Sex Pistols came in and fucked it all up for everybody. They kind of did, right? In some ways. I listened to that record the other day.

It's okay. It's a good record. Yeah. The sounds are great. Steve Jones is a kick- a good record. Yeah. The sounds are great. Steve Jones is a kick-ass guitar player. Yeah, but the fashion thing kind of... That was it, and also pissing off people and saying to the... We never told the press to fuck off.

Right. You know, and I think the Pistols and some other bands said, you know, oh, fuck off, all you. And it's like, the powers that be said, okay, fine. Yeah. As a matter of fact, fuck you. Yeah, good luck luck you're going nowhere yeah because there was the you know the hourglass of art and then the media and then the

people you have fun with your one record yeah so yeah surviving the one record no but i well no but i think that's interesting although you know dylan was kind of you know a standoffish and pricky with the press and there was definitely you was definitely, you know, a tradition to it. True. But he was Dylan. Yeah, he could get away with it. Yeah, he had more than one record in him. Yeah.

So. Somebody said, you know, if you hear some words or some lyrics or you get an idea for a song at 2.30 in the morning, you better get up and write it down. Because if it doesn't, by default, it goes to Bob Dylan. That was a great one that's great there's just lyrics running around the ether exactly oh well he doesn't want it better give it to uncle bob i tried to wake you up man but but but seriously i don't think it's boring i think like you know what you were you know because i mean i used to do i wrote poetry i i edited the literary journal in college i was i believe in it yeah and and i can still read it and and i and i love it and i think that there's sort of like you know there's a lot of life equations that works out in your songs and also

in poetry so like what were you going to say what was uh who was the guy you were into at the beginning that kind of blew your mind um i like john ashbury he was one of the and frank o'hara oh yeah um uh you know of course sylvia plath and and denise levertov and diane wakoski and i mean i came to la mostly because i was sick of the east coast but also because i loved the um the movies and the whole Hollywood. And as soon as I saw Hollywood was in the state of Tennessee Williams decay, the Hollywood sign, the O had fallen down. It was broken at that point. It was falling down. It's like nobody had the civic pride to put the motherfucker up.

And it's like, this is perfect. Yeah. And oh, by the way there's no live music that's interesting there wasn't not really yeah because what there was just a few clubs that were kind of disco tire oh it's a lot of this right yeah it was all gone it's a mid-70s right yeah that's that's hilarious whiskey you know they would have cover bands and and uh van halen was playing around a little bit. Yeah. And early on, I saw Cheap Trick at the Starwood. In 76, 77?

Yeah, 76. They were good. Cheap Trick was good. It was awesome. So you come out here with just sort of this romantic idea of what Hollywood was, and were you looking for the decay, or were you thinking that it would be glamorous? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Of course.

Where's the darkness? Don't be silly mark i knew where my bread was buttered uh had you published any poems at that point yeah and a couple like you know literary magazines and was that satisfying for you or or not i mean no not really it's not right no it wasn't. It's so insulated, the world that loves that stuff. Yeah. But there was a lot of DC poets, a lot of, you know, they were very much into entertaining, very much the spoken word and, you know, writing stuff that was guaranteed to get a laugh. Right. Guaranteed to get a reaction out of the audience.

Tim Dugos was one of them and Terry Winch. And Terry's gone on to do some other books and play in an Irish band. And I mean, it was kind of like in 73, 74, it was like, you know, along with Patti Smith. Yeah. I'll give her that. I'll give her due there. You know, it was like a performance thing. Right.

And it was, you know, even though her stuff wasn't funny. It was like a performance thing. Right. And it was, you know, even though her stuff wasn't funny, I mean, there was a lot of people that the stuff was, you know, ironic and like talking about your parents and, you know, all this strange stuff. And were you doing that? A little bit, yeah, I tried to. In D.C.?

In Baltimore and D.C., yeah. And in terms of playing in the band, you were playing guitar and singing from what age, really? No, I started on playing bass. Oh really? Yeah. I mean I learned, I took piano lessons

like everybody or a lot of people and then I thought oh well, that's only got four strings that must be easier. It is a little bit. A little,

a lot. Yeah. That's why bass players can you know carry on a conversation and some guitar players can't. Yeah. Whoa.

Just lay back. It's like sitting in your room figuring out that that's why exactly i'm done i got it so but uh were you singing at that time yeah yeah i sang from when i was young and that kind of music though so what was it in terms of musically was it was it seeing somebody like the heartbreakers that made you realize like holy fuck you know i gotta get out of this cover band something's gotta change yeah well yeah i i was just done i was done with the baltimore cover band thing the poetry even though we were i was writing songs this guy and i were writing songs together and stuff what happened to that guy um he moved back and then he uh ended up in austin i kept touch with him a

little bit i saw him a few years ago and he's actually working for a natural foods company he's really high up in this annie's oh yeah or other annie's oh yeah oh yeah i know that don't they make salad dressings and shit i think they make everything yeah yeah they're really big it's interesting what people end up doing when they live isn't it yeah how it goes for other people i think he still made music but um yeah it was the the i did have some stars in my eyes because of you know well charles bukowski he's an idiot yeah he seems to get through. And he was around when you came out here. Oh, yeah.

I never met him. You never sought him out? I tried to, but he was, you know, he had already moved down to San Pedro or was in the process. He had hooked up with his wife of many years, Linda, at that point. The interesting thing with him is that I ended up moving into a house

that he had spent some time in right there was a big drawing on this uh uh in the kitchen yeah on a four by eight sheet of plywood yeah with his little funny like james thurber kind of drawings and little cartoon bubbles and stuff like that and the lady who was the landlord next door she was like a museum curator she worked for a museum or something like that. So I said, look, we're going to take this thing out and put in a nursery. Yeah. In what was the laundry room. Right. It was like half the size of, a quarter of the size of the studio.

Yeah. So I got a P.O. box for Charles Bukowski. And I said, look, there's this. And the address is in one of his books, 2347 Duane Street, in one of his early poetry books. That was the title of one of the poems. So I thought, oh, well, this is definitely his, because there's a book at the bottom. Yeah.

So I said, look, if you want this, be happy to figure out a way to get it to you. I don't, you know, but I'm going to take it down. Yeah. And he goes, I have no idea what you're, he writes back. I have no idea what you're talking about. I've never been in that place. You can chop it up for firewood. As far as I'm concerned, just a bunch of like typical Bukowski kind of go fuck yourself stuff.

Right. Yeah. Which was perfect. I still have the letter. It was like, that was, Oh, it warms my heart.

You're such a prick. And then at the very end that he signs it in the very end, P.S. My wife says you have a good band ah so linda's like standing over and like tapping her foot going you better tell him so i gave it to the landlord who you know gave it to some museum and somewhere it's oh rotting yeah yeah i didn't want it you know it's like so between buchowski and the heartbreakers that's what set you up to los angeles yeah sure yeah why not and what'd

you come out here with anything a truck yeah ford chevy international an international travel all uh-huh i was a part of the suburban you know group before the suburbans were cool or not cool so all your shit was in there all my shit was in there um and then i bought a bed and a table and a thing and i moved to venice and then I moved like six other places. When did you meet Exime? Early on. I think it was, I moved on Halloween. I left on Halloween, which I thought was good.

Left Baltimore? Yeah. It means something. I'm going to leave this ghosty town on Halloween. And then I met her probably in um like within a couple of weeks at a at a writing workshop the venice poetry workshop which still goes on at the venice jail the old venice jail so you right when you got here did you signed up before you left baltimore no i just looked around i thought okay well i'm gonna you know i gotta you know

find some people to hang out with so and she had a job there through like a government program. She was learning to typeset. And they gave her an apartment. Lucky she has that skill, I guess. That's one of those ones that went away, the necessity of it. But it was, you know, I was like, wow, this is, you know, she actually got a job. And then she was nice, and the people at Beyond Baroque,

which is still going, people can go down and read their work. Yeah. And get it critiqued and supported or not. They gave her a place to live up above the small press library, and it had moved. It was in a different place than it is now.

Did she grow up here, or she came from another place? Came from Florida. Okay. But she had only been here maybe eight months what was her dream uh to get the hell out of florida yeah yeah she was living in in um tallahassee which is like georgia yeah yeah it's like the it's not good yeah not good florida and you guys just hit it off right away yeah yeah i mean she's very uh alluring and still is she's got a mind that is like just

incredible and yeah and she's she's crazy and sweet and you know she was a quintessence she is more so than quintessential lead singer yeah lots of demons right just lots of desire for not just for fame, not at all for fame, just desire to to hold that big flag and say, come on. Yeah. Here we go. Yeah. But at the same time, very reticent, you know, so a lot of a lot of. Yeah. And did you need somebody like that? Sure. At that time? Yeah. I don't I i mean i can be a front person but i'm i'm much happier working with other people so how did the band develop when did you pick up the guitar when did you guys start doing that well i met billy through a recycler ad there's a paper free paper or a paper calls a buck and a billy zoom billy zoom yeah i uh i met him early on too within the first two months you were looking to put a band together immediately. Yes. Okay.

Yeah. And I actually auditioned for a band called The Pop, which had a song or two, a record or two, along with The Motels. I think they were like the precursor, like with The Runaways and The Pop and The Motels. But Billy and I, there was a thing called the recycler and there were a lot of personal ads and a lot of ads for musicians and then also you know refrigerators tvs and car parts and things like that and it came out every thursday and everybody would go to the thing you know and like look it up and um i called his number he called mine um uh there were no answering machines or anything like that because it was 1976.

And he had a note on his bulletin board to call John Doe. But he and I worked together for a little while before Exene came in to sing. Exene and I were just friends, and I thought her poetry was incredibly vital and simple. And she had no background in studied poetry. Right. She just wrote. Right. And there was a couple songs, one of them, I'm Coming Over,

that it was a song, clearly. Yeah. And she kind of sang it to me. And I said, well, I'd like to do that in this band that I'm trying to put together. And she goes, I don't think so. I said, well, what do you mean? And later. And she goes, so I don't think so. I said, well, what do you mean?

And later on, she said, well, that was the only thing that I, that, that someone else thought was a value. So why in the hell would I give it away? Why the hell would I let him do it?

Yeah. That's a stupid idea. So then, you know, Billy thought, Oh, I found a bass player that seems pretty good. And now his girlfriend wants to get in the

band oh that was his yeah which we weren't actually boyfriend girlfriend at that point but when you say when you say the motels and the runways were the precursors what do you mean i mean that they were kind of the bridge between glam rock right and because they were they were putting on shows of their own yeah they uh the was another band, and I think they had a big PA system. And that eventually became huge, a huge company. They were independently putting on shows. Right. So in the middle of this horrible disco period.

Right. A little before the mask started. Right. And then, you know, 76, 75, 76, it all started just like all these people were around and like, yeah, you don't like the music, you know, you don't like Peter Frampton? Good, I'm in. You don't like Linda Ronset? Good, me too.

Good. That was the enemy. Disco and Frampton. Yeah. No, I get it. So, all right, so Eggstein's not in yet you talk with billy and what kind of songs are you playing because he's like you know he's kind of heavy duty um rockabilly yeah yeah we were doing we were doing oh we're just kind of like feeling each other's uh

sensibilities out you know kind of like we're doing uh blue suede shoes and uh honey don't and and um uh you really got a hold on me and and you know just some oldie songs yeah you know just to and Honey Don't and You Really Gotta Hold On Me and just some oldies songs. Yeah. Just to see how we like playing together. And I was trying to put in some Velvet Underground into the oldies thing. Instead of doing a shuffle,

keep it like straight eighths. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You like the Velvets? Oh, yeah. Love them, right? Yeah. They're great. Live in 69 changed my life.

Yeah. That was the first one I heard. It was weird because that's how i came into them my older brother had had uh the the andy warhol one the older brother yeah oh so essential and and i was thinking huh who is this man and why is he waiting for him? Whatever. It sounds a little urgent. Yeah. Guess you'll find out later. Guess I'll find out later. Boy, did I.

But we were pretty good. I mean, we dabbled. We did our fair share. We tried it out. Oh, yeah. We didn't get hooked. Not like Rick Wilder from the Mau Mau's or Dar or darby or any of the um oh you mean back oh when you when you were here oh yeah yeah a lot of people got strung out though yeah i know yeah

it's king heroin yeah what was your thing was it what was your drug uh more speed yeah yeah but it was like graduated a cocaine and it's like that was the beginning of the end it's like oh this is terrible oh it's it took a while it took a long it took a long time a couple three years yeah you know back and forth coke like for me coke was always sort of like speed though i didn't do it a lot seemed a lot more economical totally and you could actually create a government in that in your house in that one night yes whereas cocaine it never was enough you just chased it man it was just like where do we get more of that? That was where your energy went. All right, you're going to need some more.

Speed, you're up for three days. You've got big plans. Yeah. Well, we were lucky too. I mean, I was anyway. And I include Xene in this. If we did some,

it would be like, after it was done, you'd be up for 18, 20, 24 hours, something like that. And you were, whew, boy, that was rough. Let's go to sleep.

Yeah, that's a great idea. Let's go to sleep. We did. Right, for a day or two. Yeah. I was like, rather than. But it was a good time. Yes, it was a great time.

But that was back when it was just a horrible yellow biker crank, right? Yeah. It's like that weird smell of shit. At least it was made out of contact pills or acetaminophen. Yeah, yeah, Sudafeds. Yeah. Like that weird smell of shit. At least it wasn't made out of, you know, contact pills or acetaminophen. Yeah, yeah, pseudofeds. Yeah. Yeah. At least it wasn't, yeah.

Yeah. So, all right, but before you get into all that, so once you guys figure out, you and Zoom figure out, that you can groove together with the oldies, how does it evolve into, like, how does X-Zine get involved? Where do you find the drummer and and what are those what is it gig starts happening 77 yeah yeah it was pretty pretty soon like the middle of 77 yeah um we went through a bunch of different drummers kk barrett from the screamers

played drum with us and he's a big you set designer. Oh, really? That's where he ended up? Yeah. That's wild, man. He did good. He did real good. I mean, he does some big shit like Coen Brothers and stuff like that. I don't know if he does that, but other big time indie movies.

K.K. Barrett played drums with us for a while. Another guy named Mick from Boston. And his dad got sick and he had to go back home. And then I saw DJ Bone Break playing with the eyes and he had a big parade snare, which are like 18 inches or 12 inches deep. Right. And they're all silver. And I thought, God, this is huge.

But DJ is just a great drummer. Yeah. I called up Billy from the pay phone. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Back when they had him yeah the payphone at the mask yeah they had a payphone downstairs in the basement of the mass somehow brendan yeah yeah they're still around yeah sort of yeah you don't want to touch

him though there's one of them you have to consider who's using them yeah that'd be in pretty bad shape yeah yeah anyway uh yeah yeah, there was somehow Brendan Mullen had a pay phone installed at the mask. Yeah. So it was louder than shit. Yeah. You couldn't hear anything.

Were you holding the phone up to the drummer saying, listen to this guy? No, I found him. Billy, I found him.

Okay, promise him anything. Yeah. We'll figure it out later. Yeah. And he took it. But Xene was already playing with us

at that point. And you guys, how'd you figure out that she could sing? She just sang. Yeah. Because he took it. But Xene was already playing with us at that point. And you guys, how did you figure out that she could sing? She just sang. Yeah. Because she had heart. Yeah. She has heart.

And your harmonies are so specifically yours. Yeah. How did you guys land on that? Just by playing around with it? Just playing, yeah. Man. And I think that Xene, you know, I'll give Xene and Billy the lion's share of credit. I was, you know, I'm one of the songwriters, but I kind of collect things. I'm like the traffic director.

Right. Yeah. I'm the traffic cop of X. Uh-huh. And even though, you know, I wrote some songs on my own, and Xene would write songs, and we would give each other credit because it was all us. Right. But we just sang. And she didn't know you know a traditional harmony

she learned it eventually i don't what is that harmony though because i don't know harmonies but it's almost like it's it's she would sing a second if it felt good it's almost appalachian yeah you just sing whatever fourths yeah i think is that what it is which is usually it's like in rock and roll music thirds and fifths uh- Uh-huh. Oh, so this was a little different. Yeah, but she would just hear it, and she'd sing it, you know? And when you started to really work, so it was 77, so it took like, what, a few years

to put that first record together? Well, yeah, we just had no place to, there was no record company. But you were out just jamming and playing gigs every night, making the rounds? Every weekend, not every night. Who were the guys around?

Like, who was around? Black Flag, The Blasters? Like, who were on the bills? No, no. Earlier, it was people like Black Randy and the Metro Squad and the Dead Beats and the Alleycats and the Go-Go's were there. Oh, yeah? What were they like early on?

Good? Just like, yeah. I mean, they couldn't play that well. Right. But they still had the songs and they were just that was baffling for everybody what the go-go's that they couldn't that they weren't you know signed and it didn't have a like a million dollars because it was you just felt it you're like oh my god are you kidding yeah there's five girls that are adorable and they play pop

music so are you out of your fucking mind how how far do you have your head up your ass you can't see that you know yeah but i think it was a lot of it was pride uh-huh what the record companies yeah and we like it the way it is don't you kids come in here messing up our program and it was going on up until they just like collapsed yeah well i guess that's true yeah i'm trying to think 77 so i was in high school so that was going on up until they just like collapsed yeah well i guess that's true yeah i'm trying to think 77 so i was in high school so that was like fucking what was it foreigner well i mean what that kind of shit yeah i don't know but uh the go-go's and who else the dead beats and the alley cats and of course the germs but the germs really couldn't play that much because they would constantly they're them or the audience would screw stuff up would break the toilet and then oh well they can't play

that gig anymore um which was fun i personally did not pull the toilet i was i think that was black randy that was his trick what pull the toilet out of the ground yeah with some help you know a couple of days so there's a big sense of cooperation it takes a village but you know brendan mullen bless his heart um rest in peace you know he had the mask and he somehow convinced people for a short period of time that that was okay where was that place it was off of uh cherokee uh-huh you know in an alley the entrance luckily it was below what used to be the pussycat theater which i don't know what it is now it's still sort of a theater i think yeah maybe it's a like a church yeah but uh yeah luckily the entrance was in the alley there was only one entrance and one exit when there were like 400 people down there.

Oh, my God. Such a fire trap. Yeah. But there was rehearsal places down there. We shared one with the Go-Go's for a while. When did the scene really sort of take hold and start to win, you know, in the sense that? I'm not sure that it ever really did. Yeah?

I mean, it got popular through the free papers, through the L.A. Reader. Chris Morris was a good champion. And then Christine McKenna from the L.A. Times. The two of them and Slash Magazine. That was a monthly free magazine that was all about punk rock, all about the, you know, what's going on.

It's under your nose find a band right there's plenty of them out there lock in the original like punk rock scene in la was eclectic it was the weirdos and the screamers and the germs and fear and the controllers and the alley cats and the go-go's and um you know it was it was all like arty and then rock and roll. But people had cars, so there was like this kind of Eddie Cochran, Chuck Berry thing. Right. You know, in there.

And it was, you know. Everyone was represented. And then I guess when the testosterone comes around, there must have been a feeling of like, these were the guys that we were fighting against. In a way. Yeah. It was a little bit of bridge and tunnel right kind of stuff and and that was confusing but by that time you know we

put out los angeles it was 1980 and then we were starting to go on the road and and at that time also like the the crew that that got sort of um called the roots music thing like the blasters lone justice you guys and i know there's a couple other ones but i mean club would be included yeah gun club blood on the blood on the saddle uh texan the horse heads they were a great band yeah i don't know them yeah they're you i did a producer record of theirs they did some really great stuff yeah i mean because like you guys had a place and everybody seemed to have their place it was big enough so things could start fracturing so there would be factions of like there was more rockabilly rootsy gigs right and there was more like badass hardcore punk rock

gigs i guess los lobos too right los lobos were i mean they've been playing since 76 or something like that what's that dude's name that that uh oh they they he did a record he got real strung out he did that kind of roots music and he's up up in the Bay Area, and the guy's from Las Globas, and some people. Carlos Guitarros. Carlos Guitarros. Are you on that record? Yeah.

That's right. Yeah. What was that guy's story? Carlos was a guy from, I don't know, Glassell Park. But he was around, right, in the 80s? Yeah, he was from around here. And he had a band. Well, he and Top Jimmy had a band called Top Jimmy and the Rhythm Pigs.

And Jimmy Koncheck, he used to work at a place called Top Taco. And he was going to call himself Top Taco Jimmy. I said, that's a terrible name, Jimmy. How about Top Jimmy? It sounds like he could be from a reggae guy. But they played blues and they played great stuff that was an awesome band steve berlin from los lobos was in that band uh-huh and uh carlos guitaros was a songwriter and just he was crazy he was just so nutty yeah and and he went up to san francisco but the whole time he would have these episodes where he'd be completely out of control, and he had diabetes the whole time.

Yeah. And it was driving him insane. Right. And he— Had control on drugs. Yeah. And just mentally. You know, do a bunch of Coke and drink, you know, whiskey, and then he, you know, he was big, too.

I can remember a guy punching him in the middle of the forehead like he would take out a cow. Right, yeah. And he just went down straight backward yeah and they just came right back up yeah it was like the living dead i was like oh that that's when like eight people grabbed him right but he you know became a street person in san francisco and then everyone nursed and he was very humbled and nursed him back to health and and then as soon as he got healthy, he was difficult again. He was really full of himself.

I love Carlos, but he's like, he's such a handful. It's an interesting album, man. Yeah. To hear that a guy with that story, you know, like it sounds like he might've lost a couple of teeth along the way. Yep. Yep. Yeah.

Check out Top Jimmy and the Rhythm Pigs. That's the name of that guy's band, huh? It's got their, Top Jimmy was a great singer. Carlos. That's the name of that guy's band, huh? Top Jimmy was a great singer. Carlos was just the guitar player, and he's a great guitar player. And Jeffrey Lee was a friend of yours? Oh, yeah. It seemed like he had his own weird kind of... Demons.

Yeah, demons, but also like a kind of charm that was a little transcendent in a way. Gift of gab, and he was really sweet and kind of kind of helpless at times and and people wanted to you know take him under his wing under their wing and uh but jeffrey was kind of like he kind of invented himself right he's from you know the west valley yeah but he listened to a bunch of 78s and he goes i i get this yeah and i get this blues thing and he and you know his idea of melody and hitting the right note was like from outer space well they they covered that robert johnson tune was it preach preach the blues preaching blues that's great that was great but jeffrey lee kind of invented himself and you

know if you if you do that long enough then you become that person and he sort of invented this persona of jeffrey lee pierce the the punk rock blues man i you know he took a page from the cramps for sure uh-huh but he definitely brought that swampy and voodoo you know was he at odds with the character he created is that like no i think he was just he just got sucked into the drugs and everything else yeah yeah so how did you like on the first album like why um how did you know ray manzarek get involved he saw us at the whiskey we were opening for uh the band called levi and the rock cats uh-huh ray and his wife dorothy went down there and and uh we played soul kitchen because we were playing that anyway yeah it was you know twice as fast right you know you guys do a great cover that and uh xene was singing it and dorothy because ladies are usually smarter than men yeah said hey ray they're playing your song

he said what they are uh and then we you know met him that night and it was i i don't remember it xene remembers it pretty well but yeah i just remember that met him that night, and it was, I don't remember it. Xenian remembers it pretty well. Yeah. I just remember that he came to a rehearsal, and I was sweating. Yeah. Shitting bricks. But he seemed to like it, and that was a huge, for Xenian and I especially. Were you Doors fans?

Oh, yeah. Yeah? I used to try to sing like Jim Morrison. Oh, wow. Oh, yeah. I thought, yeah, that's no easy trick. Yeah. and oh wow oh yeah i thought yeah that's not no easy trick yeah he could have he had a scream that i could never i could never i could croon but i couldn't oh the scream like on the live album like uh one in five yeah yeah yeah yeah but uh yeah that was a that was a big that was a big

deal for me and what did he what does he bring to it like in your mind when you listen to that record if the last like well he played on it for one yeah but he did the first four records because we loved him he did all of those yep every one yep and then when we went away from him we made that questionable uh heavy metal record with michael wagner called ain't love grand because we started believing our own bullshit i think we thought oh well we're not wait a minute everyone says we're the next big thing maybe it's the producer that's holding us back right no anyway uh what did he bring he was a great uh cheerleader he knew how to uh he knew how to give you uh the confidence that you might have lacked and he would he would know when a take was good so he um and he he didn't try to mess with us and he recorded us like the doors recorded we

just all were in a room and then we fixed stuff that was bad uh you know we play along and then punch in and punch out and and you know fix little pieces that were bad but it was all a generally a live performance. And he also, on that first record, I think he chose the songs. Like, let's, you know, because we had songs like Adult Books or I'm Coming Over or We're Desperate that were more punk rock.

Yeah. And that first record was more us. Some of that stuff shows up on that collection that I have, like some of the alternative takes and some of the unreleased stuff, right, on that, which one, Beyond and Back. Yeah. There's a lot of good stuff on there that's not on the records. Yeah.

And there's a couple on your new big collection that's unreleased stuff. Yeah, a couple. That you actually wrote with Exine, and it seemed like you covered them acoustic. I did. Yeah. Take 52 and poor girl yeah and uh poor girl's great i listened to that stuff last night good yeah but like okay so let's get to the the rise and fall of that and then the solo career is that what were the pressures because i mean you did these like los angeles wild gift under the big black sun more fun the new world and those they're they're all great records yeah and they all have their you know a couple of them have you know kind of hits right it wasn't a matter of like getting a hit at least for the first two song right first two records right we were just playing live and we were doing well yeah we got

to tour and actually we got you know really good notice in the new york times in the la times like number one record and a number two record in the village voice jazz or for which time wild gift or los angeles both of them yeah yeah wild gift actually i think was was like number one on in new york and la so it was like fuck yeah and we had no idea yeah like oh well i guess this is good yeah okay let's go play right what do you want to do now it wasn't about having a hit it was about just uh turning things upside down and it was about you know proving that we could actually do this and and that it was that people did like it and we played you know like the greek theater and pretty much sold it out after wild gift with with no major record company right you know, like the Greek theater, and pretty much sold it out after Wild Gift

with no major record company. You know, it's like 7,000 people. Yeah. So that was a big deal. But then we signed to Elektra because we thought, well, now we can, they gave us complete artistic freedom. You were at Slash. Yes, we were at Slash Records.

And then went to Elektra, and that was where the Doors were from, and that's where, you know where Phil Oakes was from. They were in, you know, so. The history. And Love was on Elektra. Yeah. And, yeah, that didn't, I mean, it got us around a little bit more.

You know, a lot of people said, oh, yeah, the first record I knew that you had was Under the Big Black Sun. Right. Right. And that still has, they all still have uh relevance and because we didn't just play punk rock and that's that was you know like darby would always say you guys are a bunch of hippies because we play songs like you know blue spark or uh or adult books or something that's slower because it wasn't all just

right do you think that was uh the blessing and the curse that you you that you didn't have a you know like a repeatable like it seems that what makes people popular unfortunately is their ability to repeat themselves over and over again yeah that's true i didn't think about that um no i think that i think that just uh the way we played and the subject matter was too and the timing was all wrong and and they couldn't take advantage of a of you know like a hot couple that was a you know it's like what they have two lead singers now this i don't want to know about it and punk rock had a terrible um reputation you know even as late as uh 84, 85, we did a version of Wild Thing.

It sounds a lot like Joan Jett. But it was us, and they sent it around to a bunch of classic rock stations, Elektra did, in a plain package with no credit. And they said, oh, this is great. Who is it? They'd say X, and they'd go, oh, we can't play it. Why? Because it's punk rock. Oh, so you got they go, Oh, we can't play it. Why? Cause it's punk rock.

Oh, so you got labeled somehow and that was a liability. Yeah. I mean, for us it was a badge of honor. I mean, it was ghettoized, but you know,

that's interesting. It pissed us off, but whatever. You know, there are these lines drawn between rock and punk rock. Oh yeah. Big time. That's big time.

There's a lot of revisionist history you know like saying that rolling stone really led the charge with the ramones and stuff like that the ramones didn't get popular until the last i mean really popular to the last two or three years of their career yeah yeah there were bits and pieces you know like chrissy hind because she had a more rock kind of thing right and. And Elvis Costello would break through, because he was very clever and pop. Yeah, poppy, yeah. And the Go-Go's, and so some of the new wave bands. But we just sang weird and whatever.

Maybe that's why we still play. Yeah. Maybe that's why we're not just a joke. And you're still sort of vital. It still means something to you. Yeah, it means something to the people that come. I mean, you sent me down to the burrito joint. Yeah.

This kid who was like a Latino kid, probably 20, got a giant X tattoo on his shin. Really? He goes, dude, what are you doing in the neighborhood? I said, well, I'm just getting a burrito, and there's this guy. I'm doing a podcast. No shit. Wow, that's cool. Man, I got a band.

It's called The Goons. So to, I think his name was Odie. Yeah. Odie and The Goons, man. That's got to mean something. Keep it real. Here on York.

That's got to mean something though. Hell yeah. I mean, that's a lasting thing, man. It is on his leg. Yeah. No, I do. I'm totally grateful, and I honor that. It means you invented something that has a life transcendent of anything, of time.

Yeah. Someone saying, oh, you want to know what punk is? You want to know what music is? Go listen to X. Yeah. You're like that. That's one kind of punk rock. Right.

But you know what I mean. You set a thing. You set an axe. Yeah. Like that. That's one kind of punk rock. Right. But you know what I mean. You said a thing. You said a standard. That's a cool thing about what L.A. had and what New York had is that it wasn't all the same. Right. And that's where it's gone a little bit wrong. And I do love Green Day. I think they brought it to the audience that needed to hear it.

Right. The like 15 and 16 year olds right and and billy joe's kind of a friend of mine and and i he's their band i it's great however it became a much narrower definition because blondie talking heads the ramones um richard hell heartbreak they're all different oh yeah you know and all the bands that were in L.A., they're all different. Yeah. But then it got a little narrower. It became a little narrower.

Yeah, it became sort of a caricature of itself in a way. Yeah, I don't know. What do you want? That's, yeah. Like, it landed on this one thing. This sort of British poppy pace thing. It didn't have any range to it. Like, even like the Dead Boys and, like, you know, things, the Dolls, which was a little

before that, it allowed it to get weird and everyone was sort of accepting. range to it like even like the dead boys and like you know things the dolls which was a little before that it it allowed it to get weird and everyone was sort of accepting it was a community of weirdos yeah and then it kind of it just kind of narrowed into this one sound yeah you can hear it in the drums right away i get records all the time and i put it on it's okay here we go exactly it is isn't that they think they got the punk rock going. Hey, you guys play so fast. Yeah. So what led to the sort of breaking apart of the band?

Well, opportunities. Yeah. Geffen Records waved a bunch of money in my face and said, you want to make a solo record? And I said, sure. That doesn't mean that X was done. Right. Because I could do both.

And then Tony Gilkyson, Dave Alvin played in the band for a little while and then tony gilkison uh played with us for many years yeah and then in 99 uh billy said uh well what if we uh did some more stuff um yeah because we were doing the that electric compilation yeah and uh we said sure and then we played the palladium and it was awesome and fun and when we first started Palladium, and it was awesome and fun, and when we first started rehearsing, it was like it just clicked. Like, we never stopped playing. Yeah. And I don't know.

Now we're trying something different. We're doing it like a quieter, but trying to be as intense. And what's the lineup now? It's the same. Yeah. Last punk rock band standing. Yeah. Billy, DJ band standing. Yeah.

Billy, DJ, and Xane, and John. That's unbelievable. You're telling me, brother. But, you know, we buried a lot of our bullshit and acceptance. Age. Age, yeah. You guys are survivors. I've got to imagine some of this shit's not as important as it used to be.

Right. It's not. Or you can say I didn't mean to cut you off. No, it's of this shit's not as important as it used to be right it's not where are you gonna start i mean to cut you off no it's okay not things are not as important and you you learn to forgive people and and just accept them as who they are what was the biggest sticking point i mean what was like the hardest thing i have no idea probably that they thought i was a you know controlling asshole which i guess i was at times and i still am yeah i still like to take charge and whatever who's that guy you work with on the solo stuff that guitar player smoky um smoky hormel i didn't know him until i started listening to you and i was like how do i not know this guy he's great he's terrific he plays with everybody yeah he's playing with beck now where did he come from he was around here actually he uh smoky bought billy's other

really fucking loud amp the concert the fender concert amp that billy hopped up billy is an electronics genius oh he is and he can he can take a carb engine apart yeah and put it back together and run better oh right he's built he's built a real he was you know he was doing studio repairs before he you know got busy with x back in the you know mid-70s didn't he have some other business going for a while he still does what what is it is i don't know zoom industries or something like that i can't remember what it was billy's own music but he builds this incredible uh reverb and uh uh reverb he would correct me yeah reverb yeah because it's reverberation right but it's a standalone unit and you plug it into there and then you go into the amp and it's like it's got all these different crazy things and it's all analog shit that's great and you guys

are all together and you're playing that when now we're playing now we're playing like like we're taking down the decibels yeah so when we when we do the Christmas shows around here in December, it's like the ex-folk show. It's kind of crazy. I was really reluctant. I thought, what are you fucking nuts? Yeah. You're going to take away some of the speed and the volume?

This is insane. And Billy said, nope. this is the way it's gonna be uh-huh the next scene said yep i'm with him and i was like okay i guess i'm with you guys but it's really fun it's it's uh it's like much more musical and who do you see when you look out in the audience usually young people yeah yeah it's amazing man yeah it's really rewarding and they dig it oh of course they do. That's great. Yeah.

But like the solo career, I mean, like when I got the collection in the mail, you know, I remember buying Meet John Doe and I remember one of the other ones, but like you just kept going, man. Yeah. I mean- That's why I did the best of. Yeah. And I'm glad you didn't say greatest hits because there are no hits. Right, but I was- There are really hits. Right, but I was going to...

There are really no hits. Well, I was going to ask you how you... There could have been, but there weren't. Anyway, uh... How did you go about selecting that?

I mean, you're sitting down with a catalog of work. Who'd you sit with to make those decisions? Myself and my sweetheart, like a smart person. Yeah. Like a smart man.

Yeah. Yeah. No, I did most of it and then I asked Dave Way, who's recorded most of him he's a great producer and engineer yeah he did a lot of macy gray's stuff uh-huh early macy gray stuff and some ringo star and all kinds of cool stuff um talked to him and talked to you know a few other friends and and just said well i like this one and i like that one and that's i felt was better and no one really noticed it so let's try that one and then my sweetheart would say well don't forget that one and i said oh yeah yeah that's good

i did it because um i had more uh solo records than x records right i thought well shit yeah it's interesting that all the uh you know when i started reading lyrics i'm not fundamentally a lyric driven person i like reading poetry but i like music i like listening to riffs yeah and it's all really poetry still oh with you well shucks thanks i mean well how does that process work for you i mean do you you don't come up with a melody first you You write those words, right? Sometimes I'll just sing along with a melody, and I'll make it up as I go.

Uh-huh. But then the poet kind of kicks in and does the editing and changes little words and messes around with it. But I try not to be too intellectual about it. Right, right. Because that'll kill it. Yeah. And sometimes I'll just have a bunch of words like,

the stuff that I still write with Exine, she'll just give me a song that's like top to bottom. It's a song. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. How did you do that? You used like four lines,

and then there's a little two line in between, and then it goes into a chorus. Wow. You just wrote that from the beginning to the end um it's good that you still respect each other oh god yeah it's great it's good to hear and then the acting career i mean jesus man i was i like i knew you were in a few movies i remember seeing you but you've done like 50 60 movies yeah crazy a little here and there but i mean how do How do you get

movies? You've got an agent, obviously. I didn't used to. I just recently did. So people are like, let's get John Doe to do this. Let's get John Doe to play a musician. Don't! No, but you played a shitty dad once, didn't you? I can't remember. Played a shitty cop, shitty dad,

shitty everything. Because that dark side never goes away yeah yeah he can he brings the darkness but are you are you sober no

no but I don't I don't do drugs and I'll I'll drink responsibly yeah like 90% of the time right

so you were just a lucky one you just leveled off yeah you aged out I aged out but um I keep thinking about uh quitting the drink yeah So you were just a lucky one. You just leveled off. Yeah. You aged out. I aged out. But I keep thinking about quitting the drink. Yeah.

And I still might. I think I might clear my head. Yeah. That's what they say. But, you know, I don't know. Tomorrow, man. Tomorrow. Yeah, maybe tomorrow.

Why don't you kick tomorrow? Right. That was a song. Sure was. I, maybe tomorrow. Why don't you kick tomorrow? Frankly. That was a song. Sure was. I'll quit tomorrow. Yes, that was a Texan the Horsehead song. Oh, really? You're going to have to look it up.

I'll quit tomorrow. So you like acting? Sure. It's another creative thing, and the best part is doing the research to figure out who the character is. And I take it real seriously, but I will never say the work. Yeah, right.

I don't take it like that seriously. But I did some, you know, I did some scene study and some improv and some stuff like that. So when in the history of X were you doing scene study and improv? When we weren't touring. Oh, so you were actually kind of like,

yeah, here in LA. Well, I did a movie with Harry Dean Stanton called Slamdance. And Tom Hulse was in it, and so was Mary Elizabeth Mastrantonio and Virginia Madsen. And anyway, Harry Dean and I were cops, like homicide cops. And I was the dirty cop, and he was the good cop. And we would do these scenes, and I would realize as we're doing it, holy shit, I'm getting left in the dust. I am like, I am barely keeping up with this guy.

This guy is fucking burying me. Yeah, he's a Zen master. He's, you know, and then he wasn't doing anything. Right, that's what makes him amazing. God damn. And so I thought, I don't want to embarrass myself. Right. Because this is going to be like a nine foot high embarrassment.

It's going to be a giant, like, I can see that. Yeah, yeah. I can see that you suck. Yeah. And I don't, I'm obviously not great. Yeah, but you can show up and do it. I can do some stuff. You know, I did, the most recent one I did was called Pleased to Meet Me.

And that was really fun. It was a super fast independent movie with Amy Mann and Loudon Wainwright and Joe Henry. That's a bunch of musicians, huh? Yeah. Yeah. And it was really fun. Who shot that movie? This guy named Archie Borders did it in Louisville, Kentucky.

You know, got a bunch of independent investors and it's on, you know, video on demand and Blu-ray and all that bullshit. I like Amy. I know Amy. Amy's awesome. She is amazing, huh? Yeah. She's funny.

She's funny and dark and sweet. Solid musician. Oh, yeah. Jesus. Yeah, she's scary. How good she plays. It's wild, man. It's all you guys.

I'm always amazed because I get people in here now she's smart when you look at her lyrics she go like how did you use some 50 word and make it sound normal damn but she's also like she's different than us in that and i'm just putting myself into this crew like she's not a chaos person man i mean she's a you know she can control the environment. You know, everything's going to be tight. You know what I mean? I'm glad that you included me in your chaos team. Well, am I wrong?

No, you're totally right. I'm glad. I'm glad I'm part of the... Team chaos, baby. Let's fuck shit up. Yeah. You want to play one? Yeah, I don't know what to play, but let's figure it out. This is the only song that I've composed that I can say is sort of a John Doe hit.

Okay. This is the closest that I've gotten. Okay. Okay. You are the hole in my head I am the pain in your neck You are the lump in my throat I am on the tip of your tongue We are tangled

We are stolen We are living where things are hidden You are Something in my eye I am The shiver down your spine And you are The lick of my lips

I am On the tip of your tongue We are tangled We are stolen We are buried up to our necks in sand We're luck We are fate We're fate We are the feeling you get

in the golden state We are love We are hate We are the feeling I get when you walk away walk away Walk away You are The dream in my nightmare

I am That falling sensation You are My needles and pins I am Your hang of the morning We are tangled, we are stolen We are living where things are hidden

We are luck, we are fate We are the feeling you get in the golden state We are love, we are hate, we are the feeling I get when you walk away Walk away You are The hole in my head I am The pain in your neck You are

The lump in my throat I am The aching in your heart That was great, man. I really appreciate you coming. Yeah. Thanks for doing it. My pleasure.

All right, that's it. That's our show. John Doe, thank you for being here. If you're listening, good talk. Thanks again to our sponsor, A24, and their new film, While We're Young, a comedy from writer-director Noah Baumbach. Also, go to WTFpod.com for all your WTFpod needs.

Get the app. Get some JustCcoffee.coop get on the mailing list God knows I go out of my way to mail you something every week do what you're gonna do Thank you. Boomer lives! Three chords, man. Three chords. Three chords, man. Three chords.

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