WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 588 - Kim Gordon

Episode Date: March 25, 2015

Kim Gordon of Sonic Youth put her life story into the book Girl In A Band. But Marc wants to know what Kim's life is like today, after decades in the visual art world, after the dissolution of a pioneering band, after marriage, after parenting. What's next? Maybe the two of them can even give each other pointers on dating. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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legalization. It's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Lock the gates! store and a cast creative all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fucking ears what the fucksters this is mark maron this is wtf this is my podcast this is my show thank you thank you for being here welcome to the show some of you

have been anticipating this show this particular episode of this show kim gordon of sonic youth will be on in a bit her book is out girl in a band it's called available now in all book forms and all book shapes look i just got back from new york city and i've got i've got to chill out i've got to chill out i've not taken it easy since i got done shooting i was in rochester as you know those were great shows um then i went right to new york because I had some meetings to do. I had some people to see. And I apparently had some food to eat. Apparently, it's weird. My brain just starts knocking off things that I got to do.

I immediately went to Visalka upon arriving and had a bowl of borscht and four pierogies. And then later that night, I went there with Adam Goldberg. I don't want to drop names, but we were hanging out. So Adam Goldberg and I go back to Veselka. I eat a bowl of borscht again. I eat four pierogies again. I eat kasha. So Adam Goldberg, he's on this Meerkat

thing and he starts shooting this thing. He's got to shoot a thing that he said he was going to shoot for himself and then it ended up he's shooting me and then me shooting him and it was three and a half hours of us on that phone doing some live streaming thing for like 300 people and it got pretty ugly got pretty ugly i don't even know if you can still watch it we had a nice dinner we had a nice walk we had a lot of laughs we're having a good time we went to the bar at the bowery. Ran into some horrible women.

And a guy with a puppet. You know how you can tell when some people talk that they're just nasty, fucked up people inside? Where, like, you know, whatever they're hiding or however their tone. And this was like, you know, sort of, these women were in TV. One was a publicist and one was a producer for news type shows. And they were completely snotty

and condescending. Didn't really have any idea who I was. And, which is fine. Fine. No problem. Most people don't know who I am.

But then, you know, the guy that they were with who had a puppet, that's why I pulled him over there. I pulled, me and Adam were doing this dumb thing where we were streaming, and I saw a guy in the bar with two women, and he had a puppet. So I had him bring the puppet over.

Because I thought, like, this is funny and spontaneous. That guy's got a puppet. Maybe he'll come over. So the three of them come over. The guy's got no chops. He's got no puppet act. He's just a guy with a puppet. He kept saying, this is Larry the Tranny or something.

I kept saying, you know, tranny's not a nice word to use. It's a slang. It's derogatory, and it hurts their feelings. And the woman's like, oh, sounds like, you know, what are you, NPR? What are you, politically correct? And I'm like, what are you, some sort of latent conservative bitch? Like, you know, I said that out loud, and it was not good, because, you know, bitch in itself is a slang and derogatory.

But it just struck me, the condescension, the assumption. Yeah, like, politically correct, it's just, you know, be nice. If something is defined and known to marginalize and hurt someone's feelings, and be aware of it. I wasn't even saying that. I was telling the guy, maybe you should not do that.

But then it's just like there's this tension. I just saw the seething, weird, control freak anger, just the condescending, and just spit it out. Don't dance around it with all sorts of weird rage in your throat and guts that comes pounding through your face, through your dumb eyeballs, and in the slight lilt in your voice of who you are,

sort of your entire being is some sort of knot of concealment until it comes out like, just like, I've been lashing out a little. So, I got to get some rest, got to get some clarity, got to get some focus, got to get some

sober-minded shit going on. Been lashing out on Twitter. I had this, I've had a beef with a local pizza place over bullshit. Look, man, I like certain kind of pizza and like, I'm on Twitter I've had a beef with a local pizza place over bullshit look man I like certain kind of pizza

and like I'm on twitter and I'm hung up on the crust I go to New York I get beautiful pizza a Joe's pizza I hold it in my hand like you fold it over like a beautiful piece of New York sliced pizza where you can just fold it right in half before you even take a bite

and the whole thing just is sturdy and beautiful like a perfect piece of pizza perfect slice fold that shit in half and it doesn't fall the fuck apart and droop and slop and everything else that's the way i like it i'm crust obsessed but i don't need to tweet that picture to my local pizza place i don't need to do that i don't need to attack my fellow comics in roast wars that turn. I don't need to do that. I don't need to attack my fellow comics in roast wars that turn personal. I don't need to do it anymore. I'm done with it.

But I had a pretty nice time in New York because the weather was nice. So I'm walking down the street in New York. Some guy just comes up to me and he takes his headphones off and he's standing there and he's like, hey man

mark maron i i am i i've listened since the beginning i'm a huge fan it's so great to meet you it's so great to meet you very earnest guy i believe his name was jay may have been jason but maybe jay and i'm like how you doing man he's like great i i'm just can't believe i'm meeting you i just want to tell you i'm just so happy for your success and that you're doing so well and i've followed you since the beginning and it's just great just keep going man it's just so great to to be uh to witness the whole process and i'm like well thank you and he says uh where are you going i'm like oh i'm going over to this publishing house it's like great that's great you know and he's it's just i'm just so he said he's so happy for me i'm like well you know i'm just trying not to fuck it up

and he goes you will you will you're gonna fuck it up and i'm like am i saying oh definitely you're gonna you're gonna fuck it up but the great thing is we'll all be there we'll all be there with you when you fuck it up and it'll be great it'll be great i'm like i don't i don't know if that's i don't know if that's true but uh But I like that he didn't change his tone and there was the same type of confidence and excitement over him in his mind knowing that I will definitely fuck it up somehow, but it's going to be great because we're all going to be hanging out and moving through that together.

I can't completely say he's wrong, but I feel all right. You know what I'm saying? So look, I got Kim Gordon. I don't usually do this, but I did read most of her book and I went back and listened to many Sonic Youth records, some I'd never heard before.

And I just wanted to be prepared for a lot of reasons because I don't know that she's necessarily an easy interview my the woman I'm dating is a huge fan of hers and Kim took her picture with her and I think it was like one of the highlights of her life but let's listen now to my talk with Kim Gordon of Sonic Youth her Her book is Girl in a alcohol, and we deliver that too. Along with your favorite restaurant food, groceries, and other everyday essentials. Order Uber Eats now.

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And they're helping put Calgary and our innovation ecosystem on the map as a place where people come to solve some of the world's greatest challenges. Calgary's on the right path forward. Take a closer look at Calgarygaryeconomicdevelopment.com. But now. So, what was it? We have a lot of guitars there. I have a few. I'm not, you know, I'm just a, I don't know if I'm amateur, but I don't play with anybody.

That was a gift. That's one of the Jay Maska squires. I recognize that. I have one of those too. You do? But Jay probably gave you yours. For my birthday. He's been here. He was here. I know. I heard you yours. For my birthday. He's been here. He was here.

I know. I heard his interview. I was impressed. It was impressive. Tough, right? You did a good job. It took a while. I was awesome.

It wasn't until we started talking about his dad and skiing and stuff. Yeah. Then all of a sudden it was like, oh, thank God. He's chatty. He is. Now that I've seen him sudden it was like, oh, thank God. He can be chatty. He is. Now that I've seen him a couple different places, like now it's okay. So what video were you shooting? It's for this Peaches song called Close Up that I, last year when I was here, they, or

last summer, they invited me to come over and lay something down, which I did. How'd you get involved with her? Well, I've known her over the years. And then also this friend of mine, this kid, Vice Cooler. I think of him as a kid because I met him and his brother when they were 15 in this band, XRXBX. They were touring around as super young teenagers yeah it was a super fast super fast hardcore band and i've just kind of seen him grow up over the years and then suddenly he was involved with peaches producing a record and they want you to be in the video well they wanted me to

yeah once i did the song then i have to be in the video you You have to. What was your part in the song? I hesitate to use the word hook, but when I went in there, it was just kind of like a minimal hip hop track. And I just put something down and then Peaches built a rap around it and then they probably added other stuff. That's cool. Yeah. then that you know probably added other stuff and that's cool yeah it's uh i was relieved that you grew up in la because people come up here and they're they don't know where they are have any sense of what it is yeah and i i mean i got through i read most of your book

which i don't usually do but i need i was nervous to talk to you yeah why i don don't know. I just, I don't know. I just got it in my head that I didn't know enough about anything. Not just you. Uh-huh. But when I look at, you know, where you come from and what your interests are and the different worlds you were involved in, I was like, I am not, I'm not up to speed. Uh-huh. So then like, you know, I'm Googling, you know, Glenn Branca and I'm seeing him for the first time because of you.

Because I wanted to do... It was kind of funny. I don't know if ironic is the right word, but I had to sit through a Michelob Ultra commercial before I watched Glenn Branca do some kind of guitar solo. Oh, that's funny. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was like, this is exactly what was supposed to not happen. This was the fight.

Right. This is exactly what was supposed to not happen. This was the fight. Right. But, and then I watched, I watched the, when you sang the induction of Nirvana, you sang one of the songs, Aneurysm, right? Mm-hmm. And I remember watching that when it was on live and like being pretty broken up about it.

And then like literally emotionally shattered. And then I watched it again this morning and I cried again oh what is that about what was going on that day it was very uh touching i mean it was a very emotional actually the sound check was really difficult because suddenly they had these huge images of uh kurt's face up on the screen and it was a bit it was over kind of overwhelming but the whole night of the ceremony was so long and boring by the time you're just chomping at the bit yeah and i wasn't you know i wasn't sad because i just wanted to do something you know so active and um i don't know i was just trying to um channel kurt i mean i just to kind of see chris and dave after not seeing them and

pat and all these other people like we had shared a lot of the same crew or right in common and right manager and it was like a 90s reunion. Wow. But it was such an odd, surreal place to be. I can't imagine. And all these kind of elder establishment people. Enemies, I would imagine, from different points in your life. Yeah, enemies from punk rock. Yeah. Yeah.

Having been in the business so long, I have to assume that you walk into a room like that and you're like, oh, there's that fucker. Oh, well, you know, not in a specific way. Yeah. Having been in the business so long, I have to assume that you walk into a room like that and you're like, oh, there's that fucker. Oh, well, you know, not in a specific way. You know, just maybe there were some people I just didn't want to actually talk to who were, you know, would probably like, I don't know, hadn't seen since like the band broke up or Anderson broke up. So there were some people I was avoiding definitely. Just out of

discomfort yeah yeah it's horrible when you kind of want to you know give you their sympathy but then draw it out you know they want to draw the sadness into yeah into the open yeah they can't help it and it was such an emotional day anyway so um and how fresh was the breakup at that point pretty fresh i only recently got divorced a couple months ago but uh i don't know it was like a couple years two and a half years horrendous still though right yeah it's an ongoing process that people suddenly think it happens like as soon as they hear you're separated and then it's over and then um who are you dating or something yeah right right what do you go how are you bouncing back it's gonna take like five years ten years yeah it's horrendous i've been divorced twice it's just the heartbreak is the worst

yeah it's just like there's nothing you can do to make it go away i'm sorry i'm not yeah no i mean happy valentine's day by the way yeah i know i love that we're having this interview on valentine's day because we could discuss dating broken-hearted people dating other you know like experiences are you yeah it's all right um i don't know i think um i recently maybe broke up with somebody or they broke up with me. Not sure? It's unclear? Well, yeah. It's unclear.

It's not resolved. We're grown people. Maybe I'm going to see him today. Well, good. I'm glad. I'm dating a painter that's like a huge fan of yours to the point where I was like, maybe you should, she should come in here. Who is it?

Her name is Sarah Kane. She's an abstract painter. And it's like, and I've just recently been sort of back in that world and trying to understand it because I feel like I avoided it for so long. I was a comedian, but when I was in college, I was wanting to be an artist, but I didn't have what it took. Yeah. Did some photographs.

Yeah. wanted to be an artist but i didn't have what it took huh yeah did some photographs yeah but in your book you're very candid about certainly about the breakup but also about like how the people that kind of built the way you saw the world and and and you know a lot of men who had a profound influence on on how you you know see the world and and starting i guess with your brother was the one you really kind of yeah talked about a lot and did you see him when you come out here yes i'm yesterday how was that um you know it's always never lasts that long and um it was fine like it's always good to just see him and see that he's doing the same, which is not always a fine. He's properly medicated and level.

No, I mean, he was reciting this Dylan song, but he said he wrote it. But he remembers all the words. He has an incredible memory for things like that. Well, there is sort of like a brilliance to schizophrenia, right? I think so. I mean,

when you guys were growing up, no one really knew that was what was wrong with him? It doesn't kick in. No, yeah. It didn't really kick in until like his early 20s, I guess.

That's about the time, right? Yeah. And, you know, I think he was taking a lot of acid. Exacerbated. There were a lot of people taking a lot of acid. Right.

It's hard to figure out who was on which side of crazy. Right. Who was eccentric. He was always an eccentric kid. What was your relationship when you were kids? I looked up to him

and he teased me more so like i mean every older brother i'm sure teases their sister but i was super sensitive and he was really overly critical and um it wasn't a good combination and do you and you think that because i was a primary relationship, it kind of scarred you for life? Well, it made me just kind of want to hide my feelings. Yeah. Because I cried really easily. Really?

Yeah. You know, and we had physical fights, too. But, I mean, when we were teenagers, we were friends. And, you know, we smoked pot together and stuff. Yeah. Was he ahead of you in terms of like what he liked? Like, did that have an influence on you? Oh, yeah. I mean, he read, you know, Nietzsche and Sartre and kind of turned me on to all these.

And he got it? I don't know. I thought he had it, you know. And then, you know, but he was also willing to Shakespeare and literature. He wrote poetry. So he was like a unique guy. Yeah. Is your mom still alive? No, both my parents are.

My mom died in 2002 and my dad in 98. And your dad was a sociologist? Yeah, in education at UCLA. But I see like this is a problem with me reading the book because now I know things. Yeah. And I'm going to say it that way.

That's all right. No, but I thought it was kind of interesting. You know, like I'm sitting here telling you what your story is. Better you than I have to do it. Oh, really? Okay, I'll just recite it all.

I'll just go yes. I know a lot about you. I'm happy. But I thought it was kind of fascinating that your father was the first to sort of catalog these high school groups. Well, yeah.

I mean, he did a social study as his thesis. Yeah, it was squares and soshas and... Jocks. Jocks. But there was no stoners. No, and then when my brother was in junior high, he did his own, and then it was like surfers and essays. But your old man was the guy who figured, like, sort of broke it down, huh? Yeah.

That's like one of the most important sort of distinguishing things in our lives, is to be able to walk through a high school and go like, those are the stoners, those are the geeks, and it really exists. Yeah, I mean, it was probably this obvious thing or I don't know, like, you know, that sometimes people don't say the obvious. Yeah.

In your book though, the one thing I noticed is that there's no mention of really learning how to play guitar. Hmm. There's a reason for that. Really?

Because I didn't. No, you know, I was talking to, actually, I did an interview, Sally Timms from the Mekons interviewed me, and she'd been reading Viv Albertine's book and just talking about how punk rock was this thing that suddenly ignited a whole bunch of activity

and sent one in a direction that you wouldn't necessarily have gone. one in a direction that you wouldn't necessarily have gone yeah and i mean when i you know picked up a guitar or bass it was definitely way post-punk but it evolved into or you know helped develop what no wave was another you know just downtown kind of underground music and so the spirit of it was also there and it was really it wasn't about learning how to play guitar. Right. I didn't notice until after I read most of the book that, like, usually when you read a musician or a band's book, there's that relationship that's built with an instrument at some point. And it just wasn't, it was like, nope. It just sort of happened.

Yeah. It just sort of happened. Yeah. I mean, I think that, I feel stupid that I haven't read Viv's book, but I think she talks about how as girls in punk rock, they had a way different relationship to music and how they learned to play. Yeah. I think a lot of boys learn to play in their bedrooms listening to records. Right.

Or from other dudes. Or from other dudes, yeah. Show me that thing like that's a nice lick exactly wait do that again hold on is that it a lot of that but uh you knew you wanted to be an artist and now you've come have you come back around to visual arts yeah i mean since 2003 i've been prettyting? Kind of doing installations or conceptually based painting. But was that the plan from early on? Because you spend a lot of time, there's a lot of talk of dance.

Uh-huh. Well, I did also want to be a dancer when I was a teenager, but my mother sort of discouraged that. Why? She just said it's a tough life, which is true. It is. Of any of it. Yeah.

I think dancers have it the hardest. Very specific. Yeah. But I'm also not into anything really conventional. So, like the music I was drawn to was not conventional music. But even early on? I mean, you talk like... Well, no, yeah. I mean, the records I listened drawn to was not conventional music. But even early on? I mean, you talk like... Well, no, yeah.

I mean, the records I listened to growing up was. But I mean, when I went to... As far as when I was in New York and I first saw No Way Bands, I just thought, wow, that's amazing. And I think I can do that. Right. When did that start to break apart? It was kind of so much free.

Yeah. When did that start to break apart, though? Like, I mean, in your mind, like I know from the book, I just can't even imagine what it was like to grow up in L.A. in the 60s. It must have been amazing. Yeah, it was. I mean, it was, I guess. It was definitely, you know, less crowded, you know.

Well, to know that many people that might have met Charles Manson, it must have been a much more intimate landscape. Yeah. I don't know. It was odd. I didn't really like living here, or I wasn't really that. It was this kind of existential nausea of the sun shining the same every day. Right.

But you seem to have found some beauty in it as time went on. Yeah, I know, definitely. I mean, it's my favorite place to look at things visually, how the idea of self-expression, it becomes how you customize everything from your house to your car to... Right.

Hot rod culture, too. Yeah, and I find, you know, it's all so kind of visually interesting. And it was sort of fascinating to me that there's these people in your lives that are big people and that a lot of us all know that sort of kind of resurface in your life later.

Right. I mean, it's very odd to me, but I guess it's really not that odd that Danny Elfman and you went to school together and that you had this relationship, but he's his own thing, too. Mm-hmm. And you guys got very close when you were in high school? Yeah. Do you still talk to him? that Danny Elfman and you went to school together and that you had this relationship, but he's his own thing too. And you guys got very close when you were in high school?

Yeah. Do you still talk to him? I haven't. I mean, I've run into him a couple times. And a friend of mine plays volleyball or something at his house once a week. He's got a game of some kind going on. How did he factor into your whole, sort of like the way you saw yourself at that time,

or how was he sort of pivotal? I don't know. Like, he was really kind of the first real boyfriend where, you know, we actually talked. Yeah. And he was pretty supportive for a while, or, you know, like he, I don't know, like he just sort of believed that I would always be an artist or I could be successful. Did you think he was talented then?

Yeah, he was very talented. He was a totally untrained, talented person. Yeah. Like I didn't wear, he suddenly, he was doing music and it started with Oingo Boingo's Street Theater. He actually did it on the street? Yeah, they had kind of like a marching kind of band. His older brother was married to this beautiful French woman, Marie. They'd been in the Magic Circus together in Paris.

And that's where it started? Yeah, it was kind of like they did old jazz and St. Louis blues and all this kind of work costumes it was more like theatrical in a circus way it wasn't new it wasn't new wave was new wave was that even is it happening yet no it wasn't but um but was it crazy here like in the sick like like what in 69 you were like what 16 or 15 yeah and it was just and then the 70s just got all dark and weird. Yeah, 69 was a weird year. Yeah? Yeah.

Did you do much drugs? I did some acid, but I didn't do tons. Yeah. I mostly smoked pot, I guess. Did you ever go up to San Francisco much? Oh, yeah. I used to go up there when I was 15. There was a flight you could take for like $10 the last flight and I stayed

with friends and my parents. I could go to the Fillmore Avalon Ballroom. I saw Louis Grape, Jackson Airplane.

Yeah, at the original Fillmore. Yeah. Did you like those bands? Oh yeah, definitely.

So you liked all that you liked yeah i was totally into that you know i had those records when you knew you were going to be an artist or this idea set in like who was was it because of the trip to new york or when you went to art school in toronto when was there a moment where you're like this is because it's such like i started to think about it myself it's such an insulated unique life that has its own language and its own people and like i that was one of the insecurities i had about talking to you was like you know i know a lot of you know artists but i don't know like this is a

very specific bunch that you ran with right and it wasn't really a music thing no and until you made it one so when you you were at York University, was that where you started to make decisions around music? Not really. We had this band, but it wasn't serious. We made it up for our media class. And we were just bored, so we just did that. But I guess it gave me a taste for performing. But still, when I moved to New York it was willie to be a visual artist and then when i met dan graham and yeah tell me about

that he asked me uh he's a pretty eccentric artist uh he's a sculptor um he's a conceptual artist who now he makes a lot of um pavilions are, you know, he's interested in architecture and they have materials like two-way glass. He's really into voyeurism, actually, and things like that. Your relationship with him was long, right? I mean, you. Yeah, well, I lived, he lived upstairs for me. So he sort of was your guide. Kind of.

Your portal. Yeah. When you got to new york but you met him in california right i met him yeah at cal arts at a lecture and your parents were kind of hipsters weren't they um they were just they weren't conventional they were academics they had friends who were more bohemian they were more into security i guess yeah you know coming out of the depression and but they were still within the college environment yeah and they were super you know supportive of

creative endeavors and that sort of thing but it took a long time to realize your brother was in trouble yeah because probably they thought well maybe he's just odd yeah and they just from their generation they didn't believe in psychiatry. It was like if you had a problem, you just had to deal with it yourself. Right. Do you have any of that in you? I mean, only in the last three years did I go into therapy.

So, yeah, you do. But I also realize I go around thinking of myself as this really traditional sort of middle class grounded person. And I am a grounded person, but that's not my life, really. Or what I do is, I guess, more bohemian. You've always felt that? I realized that I still carry this idea of myself and that maybe also when, you know, having a daughter, I wanted to almost overcompensate and have this really stable environment that was almost so square, you know, in the house. Yeah. In a certain way. But it wasn't.

Right. I don't know. I just, I realized, why do I think of myself like that I'm actually not like that at all but I have that in me you know

right because that's where I came from did that happen really sort of it must have just happened after you had the baby right

I think I always you know when I moved to New York I was always like god I'm just so conventional you know middle class I was just

fucking like really I'm never going to you know middle class it's just like i'm like really i'm never gonna be punk rock but you're so punk rock i mean i think for a whole generation of people you're like it no but you're better than my whole thing was like um it's good just to be yourself you know it's like why i'm not gonna make some persona like suzy sue or lydia you know that's not who i am you know what i mean it's like i'm not goth girl but not going to make some persona like Suzy Sue or Lydia. You know, that's not who I am. You know what I mean? It's like, I'm not goth girl. But you had to make decisions like that. And you seem to come up with your own thing.

Yeah, just, but I think that was part of the, you know, the hardcore movement was really just about being more, you know, like yourself in a way, you know. So when you first get to New York, it's what, 1980, 81? Yeah, 1980. And you're living down the Lower East Side. Mm-hmm. And like I moved there in 89

and it was just starting to sort of like clean up or whatever the hell that was. There was still a lot of dope around and stuff. But I imagine at that time, it must have been insane. Yeah.

Like just chaos everywhere. Well, it was very, you know, downtown was a lot, it was kind of deserted. Yeah. You know, Tribeca totally. And So was very you know downtown was a lot it was kind of deserted yeah you know tribeca totally and and um soho you know it was dirty and you know the money the the city was pretty bankrupt and and what was your plan when you got there um i don't know just to kind of see shows and make connections with you know maybe try and find a gallery but i was pretty intimidated by what was your medium at that time my medium was more conceptual and in fact i started

doing kind of psychological interior designer. Oh, really? Yeah, like altering something physically and then making a piece of art that sort of reflected something about the person. Oh, give me an example. I asked Dan if I could do something in his apartment. Dan Graham? Yeah, which was a typical railroad apartment, bathtub in the kitchen. Yeah.

And so he didn't cook at all. So I got rid of his stove and I put this rubber Pirelli tile down on the floor that he had always admired that was inside um bank foyers yeah um you know kind of like italian kind of flooring and um and then i um did a watercolor of debbie harry from blondie because he was a huge fan yeah on a piece of typewriter paper or something anyway so that's what and then i wrote about it and got it published in a magazine. And that was the piece? Yeah.

And you did several of those? I did a few of them. I didn't do that many. So the arc of it was you go into somebody's environment, you sort of take or leave something of their life and make some alterations and then write about it in an art magazine. Yeah. But how do you really get a gallery with that? You don't.

I just have an alternative to that. I mean, eventually, I mean, I had a show at this alternative space. Which one? White Columns, which coincidentally I had a survey show there a year ago. Oh, really? it was in a different location full circle full circle yeah it's interesting to me that because i i went to some of those shows when when i was younger i know what installations are and i know that the woman i'm with now does installations but i always wondered like what and there was a moment there

when where dan graham tells you not to get locked into a gallery, into that arc of a painter, because there's nowhere else to go from there. That you want to create a conversation, some sort of discourse with the culture. Yeah. Did that, what was your idea of art? Outside of just being young and understanding the context of the world you were working in, what did you want to do? What did you think the purpose of it was?

Well, kind of, it's sort of an intellectual conversation. Right. With objet or not. But I don't know. I think it's just something that reflects something about the culture in a way, but also has a whole dialogue with kind of the history of art as an object and, you know, and just all the different sides of it. So, yeah, it's completely self-referential and that it's almost like it's like philosophy. It keeps building on.

Yeah, it's a language. Right. Yeah. Until until somebody keeps you just got to keep blowing it up. Right. Yeah. That's like philosophy. It keeps building on itself. Yeah, it's a language. Right. Yeah. Until somebody keeps, you just got to keep blowing it up, right? Yeah. That's the idea. Like waiting for the new guy to blow up the art thing. But then you talk a lot about the 80s and just how you couldn't differentiate it between

that art had sort of, for art's sake, had died and that the business world had co-opted it. Well, I mean, you know, I think Wall Street was booming. And there was a generation of artists, and they said, well, we're not doing that. You know, we're going to make it up ourselves our own way. And they went back to sort of object making and kind of fetishized objects. And then suddenly, like, painting and objects were like, that's what everyone was doing of the new generation.

They called it picture generation. So when you started writing about music and finding your way into music, I mean, you had to reckon with a lot of, like, you know, big sort of dude personalities where you sort of like i and i know that you you wrote specifically about rock guys didn't you for a little while and and somehow or another that helped you enter that world i don't know maybe i was looking for a better relationship with a brother type yeah you know yeah know. Yeah. But, yeah, I remember as a little girl looking at my dad's books, like something called Men at Work. Like, what is that? Yeah, yeah.

And then I just wrote some article about, I don't know, I was always trying to write kind of faux intellectual things, make some ridiculous premise and then try and prove it. And so. So it was a joke? one was kind of a yeah male you know about male bonding right um and these were but those were those were satires they weren't real criticism well it wasn't like there were there were real criticisms but it was um i don't know what's the most extreme thing i can write that's still considered intellectual or something.

Right, right. Maybe I'm not intellectual, but I kind of was playing around with that. You didn't feel like you were intellectual? So I thought I'd write about male sexuality. As a woman? Yeah. Like, did that make waves? Did you get some attention for those writings?

Yeah, I guess so. I mean, it was definitely the only thing i really did more publicly that um before art making it's so funny to me that like you met larry gagozian is that how you say his last name on the street in westwood yeah when you were a kid almost well i was like um 18 or and he was selling garbage prints yes and i worked for him framing hundreds of those hundreds it's just so flukish isn't it i'm not worried you can't make this stuff up right and then he turns out to be the biggest art dealer in the world and then you work for him again yeah but that was your inn in new york yeah oh my god and of course he remembered you right i mean i worked more for anina, his partner in the non-commercial space.

But, yeah. And then I eventually had a show with him last spring or whenever it was. Right. Recently. What was in that show? It was a series of paintings using a wooden wreath as a mask, a masking device, and then spray painted. Oh, nice. So that you take it off and then you have this sort of ghost image of the wreath.

And I wanted to find something that was pretty suburban or like you could get at Home Depot and then kind of transform into this more um or not maybe they do look tacky but i i uh had a show in this schindler house up on top of mahalan where i made the paintings in the basement and i was into the idea of staging it was like home like house porn shows and yeah how like real estate agents do it yeah yeah and um so i was kind of you know into that uh-huh and it came out good yeah it was super fun so when you first saw the no wave bands who was the first one you saw when when that when did that moment happen where did it happen where you're like oh shit um i don't remember. It might have been at some place called Franklin Furnace.

I really can't remember who it was. Oh, you don't? It was. Because I just missed all that. The very idea of them was to not be identifiable as a movement or as a sound. Well, I don't know. I don't think people really thought about it. But there was a compilation that was put out.

Someone brought Brian Eno to this artist space event where all these bands were playing, and he ended up kind of cherry-picking certain bands to be on this record, and then it kind of got other people's noses out of joint and sort of broke up the community spirit of it. Right. What little there was.

I mean, and then other people, when I got to New York, pretty much most of it was over. I saw Mars. I saw DNA. Was Suicide still around? Suicide was still around. That was amazing.

That was one of the first shows I saw. It was incredible. Yeah. Well, I just got into him fairly recently because i'm always late to the party what was it about that guy he was just scary you know he'd go out into the audience and uh just go right up to you and um it was hot it was just chilling it was so so minimal. He was haunting. Yeah, he was haunting. Yeah, when I watched him, I was like, oh, shit.

I just never seen anything like that. And you saw it live. Yeah. So it was really... Oh, yeah. And at that time, so all that stuff. So what provoked you to get started with it? Well, Dan had this...

Dan? Graham had this performance piece where he would have a mirror behind him, and then he would just look out into the audience and describe the audience, and then he would turn around and describe himself with the audience behind him and his gestures. So he wanted to do that with an all-girl band because he was writing articles about all-girl bands and the slits. He asked me if I wanted to make up a band for this piece. And he introduced me to this girl miranda who was a bass player and

this other girl christine hahn who played drums with uh glenn bronca's band at the time the static so we uh and i played guitar so we wrote these songs um and took lyrics i took lyrics from uh women's magazines like cosmopolitan girl they had a whole text on women's magazines, like Cosmopolitan Girl. They had a whole text on the back, like, I'm a cosmopolitan girl, and blah, blah, blah. So it was almost like a talking blues thing. And, you know, another one was just ad copy about separates. Yeah. I don't know, just softball separates and lipstick.

Separates. Yeah. I don't know. Softball separates and lipstick. Anyway, so we made some songs and we did this performance. We were supposed to, after a song, have some kind of interaction with the audience. Yeah. But we didn't really know exactly what he wanted us to do. And we were also so nervous.

And we were also so nervous. Like, I think Christine just got up during her turn and went to the bathroom and came back. Yeah, yeah. And he was kind of, like, pissed. Like, he didn't think it was successful. But I kind of thought it was. For you. Nobody knew what was going on.

Right. I think just making people, taking them out of a conventional audience performer situation is always sort of interesting. And I think that's what people were also drawn to about Kurt because he just took it way far. Right, yeah, yeah. As far as like... And same with Iggy. Yeah, yes, of course. course yeah yeah yeah he was definitely amazing so that so that's what you felt that first time it's interesting that you know it was a manufactured sort of event by this dude yeah right yeah who just had that we didn't do

what it was kind of manipulative we didn't do you know what we're was he a lechie guy no no that's good you just had some big ideas yeah i mean i think he had a yeah he had some big ideas but no i mean you know it was kind of interesting what he was trying to do uh i think he was trying to activate a woman's you know instead of a woman traditionally being in a passive position where people project stuff onto them, that we would be active in some way. Although we were already playing. I don't know. But something about crossing back into that barrier.

Right, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it's like really similar to maybe being a stand-up comic in a certain way. A stand-up. Yeah, it's a very weird thing because I know in the book there was a little piece about Chappelle and that event. It's very, the space that you can choose to occupy, you know, as an artist of any kind. It really is, it's up to you. Right. And you can sit in it

in whatever discomfort you want for however long you want to do it. Sometimes I resent the audience. Sometimes I resent that they're expecting something from me. Sometimes I feel like, oh, we're all great. We're all one mind.

And then other times you want to make them pay for something. Yeah. Do you have those feelings? Oh, yeah, definitely. I think it's similar to, you know, yeah. But that's just me. Some guys just go tell jokes.

Yeah. I mean, it's an easy way to do things. Right, right. But it's not your way, right? It's not my way. I mean, there seems to be an almost active resentment of the easy way to do anything. Do you have that still? A little bit.

I mean, I like doing this improv duo I have with Bill Nace. It's just two guitars and vocals. It's really fun, but it's scary because we go out and we don't really have anything planned. Right. We make it up every night, and yet we know how each other plays and so it seems like a band where do you do that at um well we just did three shows here one at the getty one at the echo and one in orange county oh yeah we went to australia we were in a couple festivals yeah it's good yeah I mean we've done touring in Europe and we put a record out last fall oh a year ago last fall in Matador okay that was really surprisingly

well what's it called it's called coming apart good we we have we play with um film behind us in slow motion that right it's so slow that it kind of implies there's a narrative of some kind, but you don't really, it doesn't ever evolve into anything. When you started playing with the band, with the original Sonic Youth, well, you met, Thurston was in another band? Yeah, he was in a band called The Coachmen. Yeah. That my friend Miranda took me to see.

Were they a good band? They were okay. They had the jangly guitar thing. Oh, okay. Yeah. Kind of more New Wave-ish, sort of. Were you anti-New Wave? RISD Rock.

Yeah, yeah. RISD Rock. Oh, is that what they called it? RISD Rock? Yeah. Was that what they were from RISD? They were from RISD. Yeah.

Yeah? That school? Yeah. Did you like any of those guys? Did you like Verlaine or any of them? Oh,D. Yeah. Yeah? That school? Yeah. Did you like any of those guys? Did you like, like, Verlaine or any of them? Oh, yeah. Sure. Yeah?

Byrne? Not so much? Early Talking Heads, yeah. Right? Mm-hmm. So, were they around? They were just... No, they weren't.

I mean, they were famous by then. By the time you got there? Yeah. Interesting. I mean, there were some bands in the late 70s. Right. He was from Connecticut. He was a Connecticut he's a

Connecticut kid yeah kind of take the train into the city or whatever

so you meet him at that show yeah that was the last show of

his band actually that you saw that was like that was their last

show it was just ending and it wasn't me yeah

and then he was also he was playing with this girl Miranda

I mean uh and Amaranis who was Vito Acconci's girlfriend at the time. So I started playing with those, with them. Yeah. And after Thursday night, so it got together and we had, she was a keyboard player and we had a series of different drummers and changed our names and finally arrived at this name sonic youth and it was kind of like

then we sort of realized we didn't really want to play with a keyboard player anymore and we just sort of parted ways from her and met lee right you know we knew lee he was around and thurston put on this festival at y columns the noise fest because there's nowhere to play for bands so it became like a 10-day long. Bands just kept asking to play. Specific kinds of bands or any bands? It was really kind of a wide range. I mean, people downtown, it wasn't...

So punk was over, kind of. Yeah, punk was definitely over. And CBGB's was kind of starting to be over. Well, CB's was still going, but Haraz had closed, and I think tier three had closed i interviewed thurston once and it was like it was embarrassing it was it when i hosted an evening show here and i and i like he we're trying to talk i was trying to talk about noise bands but i didn't know any i knew none well it was weird i mean that was a term actually that was a

derogatory term at that time. Like, the owner of Haraz said, well, these bands just sound like noise. Right. So, no one really liked that term. So, we sort of took it as this thing. But it was definitely derogatory. So, it wasn't a real movement. Not really.

You know, there was, like, John Zorn and the Improv thing going on where were they at the knitting factory guys it was pre-knitting factory zorn's out there man that's pretty wild shit right yeah yeah you know he comes out of the new music proposition and jazz and but wasn't that like kind of heady yeah but we weren't really like at that time there was no real clear movement there was like the swans and us and live skull and there just didn't feel like we didn't fit in right with anybody yeah and um there was like the hoboken pop scene with the individuals and the bongos and that they were like the ones that were popular and it's kind of this middle zone. Yeah. You guys kind of owned it. But who did you tour with first?

Well, we just toured with ourselves. I mean, we brought along Dinosaur Jr. when they were on one tour. They were touring in a station wagon. They were really young. And they opened for you? Yeah. So the tours where you opened for larger acts didn't happen until later? we didn't that was nothing we were interested in at all at the beginning

not yes well we were never interested in it except we were happy to do it when neil asked us to do it of course yeah but uh we weren't you know we were never really into that what were you into what was the idea it was really baby steps you know like getting a gig at CBGB then making a record then going on tour and how did you evolve the sound I mean you guys would just sit there and work it out because there's

you know the dissonant sound and like the guitars tuned weird and then you know there's some droning going on. I mean, how did you know when you clicked it, when it was happening? That's a good question. Well, we liked things that were contrasted, like a melody line and then dynamics,

things that got loud, things that got soft. And I don't know, it was like we just kind of really played it, kind of formed it organically through the arrangements. Because it's interesting, like it's a completely definable sound that you guys repeated, you know, that you have, like, Sonic Youth sounds like Sonic Youth and no one really sounds like you. So, you know, it must have felt, there must have been a groove achieved that kept kind of growing.

You knew when you hit it, right? Yeah, I guess so, yeah. What was that Neil Young tour? When was that? What album had come out? That was, that must have been after Goo, our first major label debut. It's wild to me that real bands that, you know, people that are in it for the long haul and have the defined sound you can hear it in the earliest music do you ever listen to that stuff sometimes you know it's weird sometimes i'll walk into a store or someplace and i'll hear

something i'll go god that sounds so familiar i go shit i put the fucking mc5 on when Wayne Kramer came over. Like, he was walking up the driveway, and they've only got three records out. Oh, man. And he's playing, and I'm like, do you recognize that? He's like, I don't. He did not know. And he walked in, he didn't know.

That's funny. I don't know. Like, I definitely can hear a tuning. You know, I can tell it's us because of the. Yeah, it's a specific dissonance, right? Yeah, it's just some, you know, not that other people don't use different tunings in their guitars, but something about the tone and, yeah. And when you, well, I mean, I know that obviously what's happened with you and Thurston has happened, but when it was good, you guys loved playing, right? I mean, and Lee, too.

That drummer, too. Steve. It's crazy. Yeah, he's a great drummer. He's a great drummer. Yeah. And you all got along for the most part? For the most part. You know, I mean, there's always the band dynamics.

But, you know, the older we got, I think we, I thought we were learning how to get along better. Yeah. Did you have any idea? It's really hard when you're in democracy and then you're all trying to mix a record. You know, I think when we found people that we all felt good working with, that was much better, you know. You're very candid about the dissolving of the relationship in the book.

And I wrote a book about my divorce and it's very cathartic to do that. And it feels good. But when you write that stuff, when you talk about the specifics of it, do you do it to purge yourself or to help others? Or it's just part of your story? To help others. Part of your story? To help others. I didn't think, well, for me, it's writing as, it's partly, I can't think unless I'm writing.

Or I can't figure out how I'm feeling about something. And when something like that happens to you, that's so, kind of spins you off. And you start looking back at your whole life. Like, how did I get to where I am? And I couldn't really figure out where I am now. Right. Unless I did. And, you know, I tried to be I am? And I couldn't really figure out where I am now unless I did. And, you know, I tried to be as minimal about it as I could. When I went through it, and even talking about it, you were very diplomatic about your parents. And about, there's no, but you didn't really completely throw anybody under the bus.

And it's hard not to. I mean, when I wrote my book, my father went right under the bus yeah and uh and i'm older than you more mature is that it is that what he's still around and i caught a lot of shit about it i don't know how my ex feels about it but i tried to be yeah it's very hard because well i'm sure that some people will be bummed out about my book. Yeah. I don't know. Here's what this thing you said. I wonder whether you can truly love or be loved back by someone who hides who they are.

It's made me question my whole life and all my other relationships. Yeah. That kind of blew my mind. I highlighted it. Look at that shit. Shit is highlighted, Kim. The thing like that, that kind of spun me out because then i'm thinking about art and about what you're really digging it for and is it some sort of something that has to

happen in the present that's completely different and mind-blowing or is it some kind of truth you're looking for and then when you come up with something like that isn't that what it does when you lose your identity like your identity is so wrapped up with another person and that person is also part of your work and your income and your everything yeah why that's a unique situation so um it just like obviously no matter what someone does it is to two people who create a situation so um you know i just sort of wanted to examine myself and see how i contributed or didn't or right and then you were wary to use words like codependent and narcissist well i know they seem so therapy talk but uh right uh i don't know you know like

it um it's like someone can be a narcissist or have, you know, we're all somewhere on the spectrum of that. Right. But then there is something like narcissist disorder. Right. There's a difference between having narcissistic. Or like a toxic borderline. Ooh, scary stuff, that is. So, but you know, beyond that, like, it's true.

You really can't help who you fall in love with if you believe you're in love or, you know. And people do change and whether they change because they've repressed a big part of who they are or. And I have to say, I'm sure I was stuck in the whole thing, too. My marriage. You know, I was stuck in the whole thing too my marriage you know I was not it's kind of brought me maybe free

and allowed me to basically get back to where I feel like I should what I should be doing you know making art and things that are really

inherent and authentic primary to who I am. And that I actually like put that on the back burner is kind of upsetting to me. Right. In retrospect. Yeah, in retrospect. Well, I guess it like, I don't know what drives a band, but I guess the compulsion to just keep working is a lot of it, right?

Sure. And it's kind of like a machine. It just keeps going. Yeah. And he was like, I don't know, he's a little older than me. I mean, it's so weird, I guess. And I can understand what you were saying before about how feeling like middle class or conventional is like it's not an's not an unusual tale right you know sure it's right it's so it's just it's just it's nothing special i mean it happens with so many people

right it's how people fuck up yeah god damn it so yeah and i've known you know since then i've met you know several couple couples or friends whose marriages have completely fallen apart. And then they're reading my book and they're just relating to it. Right. It's strange. Well, it's such... And also, I think that the idea of how technology leaves all this... That feeling that you had where it was

almost like he was just dying to be caught. Mm-hmm. I, you know, I. Right, right, right. Because I know that when my first marriage broke up and I was the bad guy, you know, it just, you're a coward and then you get caught. Right. And then you're kind of relieved in a way or something.

Well, yeah, something. But then, but it didn't, but then you kind of want your cake and you want to eat it too. And you want to be a child. Yeah, you want everything to be okay. You don't want to be looked at as a bad person. It's horrible. Yeah. Like the heartbreak of it is just like, I definitely related to it.

Yeah. And do you think outside of this writing, as you sort of take, reown yourself or whatever, do you feel like some of this pain is informing? Other than the performance I saw on the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, which was devastating to me. Do you feel that you're going to purge yourself even more with this stuff? I don't know. I mean, right now I feel okay. Oh, yeah? Good.

Good. That's good. But, you know, there's obviously, I haven't been so busy. So, you know, it's times when you're not busy that you can feel sad. But I've had so many amazing things happen to me since then. And, you know, so many great things going on. And I don't know. It's pretty amazing to watch.

Like when I watch some of this stuff, because I was re-watching things of you guys playing and, you know, you covering like Iggy songs and then like just these moments where you guys are all... There's something you wrote in the book about just dodging guitars. You were in it, but then on the periphery, you just see guitars coming at you.

Another thing that you talked about that I found compelling and I could relate to is this perpetual sense of not doing enough, of insecurity, of maybe feeling like a fraud of some kind artistically. Do you still get that? Well, I'm sure some people feel like I should just play music and not make art or something. And some people think I should play conventional songs.

I don't know. People get weird ideas about you. Could you ever play conventional songs. I don't know. People get weird ideas about you. Could you ever play conventional songs? No. I mean, writing this book is probably the most conventional thing I've ever done. And it's very straightforward. Yeah. Because I was reading some of your essays because I got hold of another book of the essays.

And it's different. This book is very kind of like close to the bone yeah i mean i like i mean parts of it were really boring to write jesus just like having the nuts and bolts of talking about things that you feel like you've talked about in interviews or just can i just wikipedia what the raincoats sound like right or something yeah just put that in scope you know google yeah yeah yeah yeah um but you know i liked writing about la and early new york and you know certain things were fun to write about yeah and your daughter too i mean like that that bit where you watch her for the first time that got me choked up i just cry yeah how's she doing she She's good. She goes to the Chicago Art Institute.

Wow. Third year student and has a great boyfriend. Cool. She's known since high school, but they weren't together then. Yeah. And it worked out? Yeah. He's a really good musician, actually.

And she's going to go the music route? No, she's an artist. Oh, yeah? Painter. Yeah. Do you feel ecstatic about that? Oh, yeah. I'm thrilled.

I mean, I love her. She's so like one of my favorite people to hang out with. She's so cool. That's so sweet. Well, look, I hope I did justice to our conversation. Yeah. I mean, it's Valentine's Day. I thought maybe we could trade dating experiences.

Okay, well, let's see. Do you have any advice for me? Somebody who's like... Well, I'm dating this painter now, which is an all new thing, because she's like completely consumed, like artists are in her art. And I'm not used to that type of detachment. I'm a little needy. I'm not a good dater.

Yeah. I don't really know how to do it. Yeah. I was married twice and like I don't know that and certainly you've been in a certain type of limelight long enough to where it becomes very difficult to date when you're a public person. Right. And people know you.

Yeah. So you have to almost look for these people that are going to pretend like they've never heard of you before or else date in your pool. Yeah. I don't know. It depends what you want.

All I know is that I've gotten very cynical about relationships and about love and about, you know, like I'm at this age where I'm 51 where I'm like, I don't have to do anything I don't want to do. Mm-hmm. You know, I don't have to put up i don't want to do you know i don't

have to put up with anyone's shit yeah so that's sort of like that's a good attitude that's sort of where like where i'm kind of at it's like you know i don't you know nah yeah you got a lot of you know i got my own baggage i get that but you're like like why not just have fun if that's possible? Right. What are we looking for at this point? Exactly. Like you're not looking for someone to start a whole life with. I don't think so. Yeah.

You know, what are you experiencing? I don't know. Well, I was actually out with a friend who is a really good writer. And she, I'm going to kind of not steal her idea but just she was talking about relationships and how um she did a lot of dating when she moved out here and before she met her husband and she said well it seems like there are two kinds of uh people or relationships like the first kind where, you know, they want to zip you up in a suit with them.

Yeah. Together and completely intermesh your lives. Right. Together. Yes. It's super meshed. Right. And the other kind where you kind of

go in and out of each other's lives and you have space. Right. And I would definitely be more of the second leaning. Sure. You know, like I need a lot of space. Yeah. Mentally, that sounds very good to me.

But emotionally, I don't know. Yeah. Like, you know, whatever's gurgling up in there in terms of needs or how that's going to use me as a puppet. I don't know. I'm not always quite clear that's the big challenge are you a virgo libra huh yeah almost a virgo you think that has a bearing on this possibly well because like when you were talking about that maybe you're rising

science worker maybe i don't know i gotta look it up yeah i've had charts done but i get it gets a little overwhelming but um like in the when you talked about projecting a fantasy on people, like that whole thing. Like, you know, there's some definitely, you're definitely, you know, your wisdom's coming through. It's good. Like that whole idea of like, you're making somebody up to fit what you need.

And then it's only a matter of time before they disappoint you. Right. That's a fucking problem. Yeah yeah that's a problem yeah i've been talking about this yeah they do meet people who are like you don't know why they like you like do they like you because no idea i mean it's all part of who you are anyway what you do right whether it's right you know you're so of course they're to like you because of what you do also. That's like, it's not like... It's kind of weird. You kind of doubt it.

And then you, I guess, feel like once they get to know you that maybe... I'm saying you, but I mean, you know. You, yeah. The universal you. Right. That they won't like you or something. Or that, why would they? That's it.

So, do you think love's insane? I don't, it's like there's, like, I don't know, like, I've been taught over time and from, you know, bad experiences that, you know, what I experience as, what does love really mean to any one person? You know, there's this intensity that happens and they as you get older, you can't deny the craziness of the relationships. And then I think that what's happened to me is that you just live with this heartbreak. It doesn't always, it doesn't disappear. It just sort of fades in intensity.

And it just, it becomes like this weird thing that just kind of percolates there. And I guess you can fall in love again, but after a certain point, like how much drama, how much bullshit you want to. It's true. But then all of a sudden you find yourself in crazy land. Yeah. But like, it's good that you have a child

that's growing up nicely and you have that response. But I don't have any of that. I'm still a fucking idiot. Yeah. I mean mean she's um you know in college now and um but you did that yeah but i feel a little unsprung like what now now i feel like a teenager or something well are you meeting good people do you have good people to hang out with yeah then you're dating cool people um yeah i mean i'm not i don't know i don't know what my dating status is right now but are you with people like uh like around our our age or mostly younger i don't meet anyone my age yeah never huh weird yeah might not be good go with younger why not yeah you think that's all i mean younger is good i'm glad you're

doing that it's nice to hear because men always get sort of a you know bad rap for that yeah i understand now why they do it yeah good for you oh you also mentioned danny goldberg who i had a miserable experience with is he still in your life no no i don't know what danny i think he's a manager now or something i don't know all he Oh, you also mentioned Danny Goldberg, who I had a miserable experience with. Is he still in your life? No. Not a good time. No, I don't know what Danny, I think he's a manager now or something. I don't know. All I know is he came into Air America when I was a morning guy there and just fired me. Oh.

And he was like this weird, kind of like confused, medicated person wandering around the halls. How long ago was that? They brought him in as CEO for reasons that I don't know. That was in 2005, maybe. Yeah, but he was definitely one of the villains in the Marc Maron narrative. But so what are you going to do? You going to do art? You going to do music?

Yeah, I'm probably going to do art, mostly art, but also do music. Do you think you'll ever forgive that man? I hope so. Yeah. I hope so someday. Hard, right? But. You know, it's actually good that your daughter's all grown up and you don't have to deal with that thing of like

are you picking her up for sure yeah that's tough oh yeah you seem good to me thanks it's great talking to you

and I appreciate you coming I'm so happy to be here good I'm a huge fan of your show thank you and thank you for this book I liked it I'm almost done

great and now I've listened to all the Sonic Youth records. What's your favorite Sonic Youth record? Well, it's weird because I hadn't heard the first one that I ever... Did you ever even... I didn't even know you listened to Sonic Youth. Yeah.

Well, there's like... It's weird when I talk to musicians because I can like somebody but not listen to everything. Yeah, of course. Do you know how can you do that? Yeah. But Daydream Nation, Goo, and Dirty were like, I remember when Goo came out, I bought a cassette tape. So I had it on.

That's cool. Right. I had it on cassette and I remember it and I listened to it a lot. And then like, you know, things happen. So those three I really was familiar with. But then like I never went all the way back. So I did that and I went a little bit forward. And then I got, you know, every time i talk to a musician i get to like and then like i don't know never

knew who glenn bronco was i'm sure there's plenty of people are listening like of course you didn't asshole like how could you not know like those people but it was great to listen to it all again and to and to and to talk to you i was nervous but I think it went good. I was afraid that you were going to make me cry. Come on. Why do people say that? I don't know. It's like, I mean, like, I don't. Well, I cry easily if I'm just in a certain mood or something.

Well, like, there was so, like, you made me cry this morning. You made me cry this morning. I just want you to feel like, I didn't feel, did I feel like an idiot? No. Alright, thanks for talking Kim. Sure. That's it. That's the show. I enjoyed talking to Kim Gordon. I enjoyed

meeting her. And she was right here in my house. Go to WTFpod.com for all your wtf pod needs and remember theme music is by john montagna other music on today's episode was uh by dj copley check the marination dates people check those dates because we added shows in boston uh toronto um we had a show in asheville ph. Philadelphia is pretty close to selling out. Houston is sold out. You can go to WTFpod.com slash calendar and see when I'm coming.

I'm a little worn out, still getting over a cold. I don't know what these, I can't use that box anymore because it causes trouble. What box can I use? What does that one do? Thank you. Boomer lives! It's winter, and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs, mozzarella balls, and arancini balls? Yes, we deliver those. Moose? No.

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It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5pm

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