WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 590 - Drew Friedman / Mick Jagger

Episode Date: April 1, 2015

Cartoonist Drew Friedman is a true student of comedy. Marc talks with Drew to find out how this attachment to comedians started and why Drew has spent a good part of his life illustating funny people. Also, Marc invites his friend (and Rolling Stones superfan) Dean Delray over to the garage as they await a phone call from the one and only Mick Jagger. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fucking ears? What the fuck sticks? What the fucksters? This is Mark Maron. This is WTF. This is my show.

It's my podcast. Folks, big stuff today. Primary guest, Drew Friedman. Cartoonist, artist. big stuff today primary guest drew friedman cartoonist artist life changer for me uh first guest we got a short interview today with somebody most of you know he's in a band but before i i i talk about that specifically i. I do have to admit that I've gotten perhaps a little arrogant or maybe insensitive or maybe I'm just sticking by my guns. I'm not sure, but I'll try to explain the story to you. So I got an opportunity to interview somebody. This is a big guest. Okay. This is a big guest. Okay.

It's a big guest. And the opportunity was, look, you know, you can have him for 10 minutes and it's got to be pretty specific. And, you know, he doesn't really like getting personal. And, you know, it's a big thing. He wants to do the podcast. Now, I guess I should tell you, this guest is Mick Jagger. Mick Jagger. They have a nice 10-minute chat about the new tour, 15-city tour that they just announced.

The Rolling Stones. The Rolling Stones are doing a tour. They're also re-releasing Sticky Fingers on May 26th. This is what's going on for the Rolling Stones. So someone thought that it would be great to have them on the show. And then I talked to their main publicist and she thought it would be great to have him on the show and then I talked to their main publicist and she thought it would be great to have her on the show and then I'm like well look you know I said this and I got to cop to it I got to own it because it's fucking ridiculous

so I'm like well you know I usually do an hour interview and you know that's sort of the format of the show it's like an hour interview and this woman Fran was like I know what you do and we love what you do and mick listen to what you do but that's not what we're doing and i'm like yeah i know and you know and i'd love to talk to keith for an hour if mick can't do it keith would be great for an

hour she's like i appreciate that and i'm not ruling out that possibility in the future but that's not happening now what we thought is we'd have you know maybe Mick and uh you know Keith and maybe Ronnie at you know on your show for 10 minutes leading up to the tour I'm like well you know it's not what the show is so let me talk to my producer and partner uh business partner Brendan McDonald and let me get back to you on this because yeah I'd really like to do an hour if that's possible and I was like oh well where are they exactly and she's like i don't know where they're going to be and you know the we'll you know we'll see what happens where they're going to be and i'm like all right because i could come to them and like well no this we're not we're not really doing that but

it's not what we're doing i'm like all right well you know what it's not what i do so let me just check with my with my producer so i call it brendan and rightfully so he uh he says what the fuck is wrong with you mick jagger wants to talk to you on the phone who cares what about her for how long i mean it's mick jagger you you talk about the stones constantly really if you look at the arc of the 550 or 80 or whatever episodes they come up i got a poster of mick jagger i got the gimme shelter poster right here my first guitar was a telecaster once i i got enough money to buy a guitar because keith played a telecaster i used to stick my cigarette in in the top of the guitar like keith you know i like i used to stick my cigarette in the top of the guitar like Keith. I used to sing along with Mick. I knew I can do the Mick finger shake.

I listened to the Rolling Stones for the first time on a school bus when I was in eighth grade. My buddy Eric Tippman brought a Panasonic tape recorder, and his dad had Exile on Main Street, and he held that tape hate recorder up to that speaker and he recorded several of the songs from exile on main street one of them being sweet virginia there being a skip at a certain point in that song and i awaited that skip every time i heard that song for at least two decades it's passed now good no longer remember where the skip

was midnight rambler changed my life it's the rolling stones all right so brendan's like shut the fuck up man just talk to mick jagger who cares what how long it goes on what what's wrong talk to mick jagger and i'm like holy fuck you're right dude what am i thinking jesus so mick jagger's gonna call me and I wanted to you know I couldn't believe it now now once I had said like yeah we and it got all set up you know I was like excited I was like okay I can't believe I'm gonna talk to Mick Jagger and I it's got me emotional because it's an important person in my life Mick Jagger the the Rolling Stones, Keith Richards, Charlie Watt, Bill Wyman, Ronnie Wood. They're important to me.

So now I'm nervous and I'm excited and I'm freaking out. And I'm like, I want to share this experience with somebody, you know. So I was like, Dean Del Rey's the dude. Dean Del Rey, you know, he worked for them. He should be here with me. And he should like, if he wants to, he should put some headphones on and enjoy this experience with me. Texted him, I'm like, dude, I'm going to talk to Jagger for like 10 minutes.

Do you want to be part of this? And he's like, hold on, maybe, hold on. Let me see if I can look at that text that text exchange you want to come over and listen on the cans during the call he goes hell yeah when and i go between 12 15 and 12 45 come over at noon he goes fuck yes i am there man kick ass thank you and then he came over so you'll hear it unfold momentarily uh me and dean del Rey leading up to the Mick Jagger call, then a conversation with me and Mick Jagger, and then me and Dean Del Rey trying to keep our shit together

post-Mick Jagger call. All right, so now let's go to me and Dean waiting for Mick Jagger to call the garage. I'm nervous, dude. I'm going to talk to Mick Jagger. It's insane, man. It doesn't get any bigger than that. I only got like 10 minutes.

Yeah, but you know, I know that's weird because you're like, what do I ask? What do I ask? You got to- Well, you want to connect with him. You don't want to just be like, I don't know if he's sitting there with a bunch of, like he's going back to back doing a phoner junket. Yeah. I don't fucking know.

I don't know if I'm the only call on the docket or if he's like, you know, who am I talking to now? Who's this again yeah all right let it rip oh this is the fellow in his garage in his garage i mean all those years you love the stones you have a million things you want to ask him kind of but like i'm more astounded that i'm going to talk to him like i like i don't even know what do you really ask him you just want to say like what's up yeah how about ultimate yeah there's part. What do you really ask him? You just want to say, like, what's up? How about Altamont?

Yeah. There's part of me that wants to ask him that. What's your favorite Stones record? That's a good question. Right? I think, like, you know, more so than not, like, Beggar's Banquet, I go back to a lot. Right. I mean, you know, and I like, I've been listening to the real old stuff lately. Oh, yeah.

I'm not down with that stuff. That Brian Jones era stuff. Yeah, yeah. All that shit. Like, it's I'm not down with that stuff, that Brian Jones era stuff. Yeah, yeah, all that shit. Like, it's really, some of it's great. Like, some of it's like straight-up blues stuff, you know what I mean?

Oh, absolutely. And it's a real clean sound, and I'll play some of that for you when we go back, like, out of our heads and, what is it, December's Children. What day does the tour start, dude?

Oh, I forget. Man, I'm not ready, man. I'm not ready. May 24th, San diego there you go i can't i like i mean he's calling the garage you gotta think when you started this podcast nick jagger calling the garage calling the garage dude when you started the podcast you didn't think the jagger was gonna call the garage right no at all no why would i think that you know you're just doing something yeah you want to do.

I feel like I'm waiting for a chick to call. I keep checking to make sure the phone's on the receiver. Like, old-timey. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Is the phone working? Should I double-check it? See if there's a dial tone?

This is nuts. We're just sitting around waiting for fucking Mick Jagger to call. You know, people are like, Mick Jagger, so what? Fuck you. Oh, no. Whoever says that is out of their mind i don't know if anyone's ever said it but you know you sometimes you think like are the stones does anyone care about the stones who cares if anyone cares fucking mick jagger yeah yeah no one there's only like five guys that have done what he has done you know still playing music does he's doing football fields man and baseball parks the greatest rock and roll band in the world like not one two not five songs you know a hundred songs that are played on

radio every day now oh now i'm starting to think like dad give him the wrong fucking phone number oh that's the worst right well i guess so whatever man you know it's like if it doesn't happen i hear you what am i gonna do so uh now we're we're in a deficit we're in overtime it's gonna happen now it's just gonna be sad it's gonna be me and you like slowly getting disappointed minute by minute i guess not happen then we'll go back in like let's go listen to sticky fingers yeah that's like a sad sad day on york street that's our record oh no what's my other phone unbelievable hello hello yeah. How's it going?

Oh, really? Another promo call? Oh. Yeah, yeah. Like, when are you thinking? Well, you just want me to sit here, or do you want to give me a little window again? Well, I mean, it's just, well, look, I'm around. I'm just saying that, like, you know, I've been sitting here just waiting for a half hour looking at my phone. So if you're telling me I should keep doing that for another hour, I can. But if you can tell me like maybe like another half hour window, like if you want to try,

if you think he can do it between 115 and 145, what do you think of that okay so that's 130 and two here okay deal let me know if there's a problem i'll come back out here at uh at 130 and we'll wait it out thank you bye well we know it's happening i got not now we yeah he got you hear me though yeah he's caught up in another call another promo call you are so marron. It's hilarious. You know what I mean? Oh, really? I'm number 38?

Yeah, okay. Well, I'm just out here in the garage. Yeah, we'll go get him my phone. I could have a grilled cheese sandwich right now, but no, I'm out here. Let's take a break. Okay. It's so fucking funny. Oh, my God.

Hello? Hello? Mick. Hi, Mark. How are you, sir? I'm good. How are you? I'm thrilled to talk to you.

I'm going out of my mind. I'm sitting here. I'm like, oh, my God, is it going to happen? And there you are. I'm sorry I'm late. I got the times wrong. I had a whole bunch of interviews, and I started late. I'm so sorry. Oh, no, it's no problem. We're just hanging out here in the garage waiting for you to call.

I'm so sorry. I just realized I got the times i was i i was started like half an hour late and everything um no it's great it's great i'm thrilled to talk to you how you feeling good i'm feeling good where are you calling from uh the west indies oh really wow is it nice down there when you hear me okay i can hear you great are you at the beach or something uh not on the beach but i'm near the beach oh that's sweet so i'm uh i'm i'm psyched to talk to you is this the first time you've been on a podcast or you never or have you before i think i've been on podcasts before i'm very

pleased to be on yours good so i you're re-releasing sticky fingers now how much of uh did you spend any time with the record when they were remastering it or anything? Oh yeah, I remastered them. I was there for the remastering. What was it like to listen to that stuff again like that? It's great. I really like that album.

It's a really good album. Oh, it's a great album. But I mean, do you, when you sit and listen to those songs, do you go back in your mind to where it was recorded? And what, didn't you do that down in Muscle Shoals? A bit of it. Yeah.

With three tracks in Muscle Shoals and the rest in London. And when you hear those songs, do they trigger stuff? Do you get emotional about them? Or do you have some distance from them? Well, I mean, I sing them a lot now. So it's not like I'm listening to them for the first time. Right. You know what I mean, I sing them a lot now, so it's not like I'm listening to them for the first time. You know what I mean? It's like, you know, so as a song,

it's like now for me, it's not like I haven't heard it for like 100 years. I mean, some songs you don't do, and when you listen to them, you think, wow, that takes me back. But when you played Wild Horses like a couple of months ago, it's not quite the same.

Well, when was the last time you played like Sister Morphine or Moonlight Mine or moonlight yeah we played it on stage not for a long about 10 years ago i should think the last time we played that yeah that's that i haven't played that for a while it'd be hard would you think it'd be hard to get your head back into that one no i would get into it i could get into that in in terms of uh the tour so uh you guys are are going to be playing just the classics what's the plan i don't know yet you know we're in rehearsal i've got you know we'll make a bit of a mixture we'll play like well-known songs we'll play a couple which always try and find a song we've never done before a couple of songs we've never done we might feature

a few songs and sticky fingers more unusual one maybe like the one you mentioned maybe a couple of others um so it'll be a mixed bag and it won't be just all like hopefully it won't be just by the numbers you know sure man and do you do you get it excited like do you have any ideas of some of the songs that you haven't played in years that you might want to play well yeah i'm going to, I'm going to see in the rehearsal. I always go through a long list, and then we try them, and they say, ah, that's not going to work. Or that sounds like it's got possibilities. And, you know, we might feature some of the less well-known songs

from Sticky Fingers because I think, you know, that would be good. That would be amazing because I heard a rumor that you guys are just going to play that whole album right through. Well, you know, the thing about it is that but that might work and it might not work so you know it's got quite a few slow songs on it yeah um um but don't you think people would be like oh my god they're playing the entire record don't you think that like people maybe it'll work you know you've got to see yeah maybe it's going to work good so when you when you decide like if you have an older song that you guys are just uh you know? You've got to see. Yeah. Maybe it's going to work good. So when you decide, like, if you have an older song that you guys are just playing around with to see if you can play it,

what determines whether or not you can do it or not? What makes you say, like, nah, it's not going to work? You can just tell when you rehearse it. Oh, really? You can just tell if it works, you know, if it doesn't work. Right, right, just by the feel of it? Yeah, just by the feel. And if it really rocks or, you know, if it doesn't work. Right, right, just by the feel of it? Yeah, just by the feel, and if it really rocks or, you know, has some emotive thing to it,

then you can really tell, and then, you know, you know when it's not working. Right, and how are you and Keith getting along? Pretty good. I saw him the other day. He's pretty good. Are you going to speak to him on this podcast? I think so. Is Mick Taylor going to play with you on this podcast i i think so is mick taylor going to play

with you guys again no i don't think he's not he's got he's not um gonna play on this tour no it's just gonna be yeah it's just gonna be us we had a great time with him i really enjoyed it and we did a load of gigs went all around the world and you know we started off in london it was going to be just one show in london and um you know went all around the world. And, you know, we started off in London. It was going to be just one show in London. And, you know, went all around the world together. But this is like another beginning of another tour. So, you know, I don't think he's coming on this. So do you have any special guests in mind that might play with you?

Yeah, we'll see about special guests. You know, we did a lot of special guests on our last American tour, and it was a lot of fun. And so, you know, I think that kind lot of fun and um so you know I think that kind of works or maybe you know we should do something different I like doing guests you know sometimes the guests uh you know come up with amazing things sometimes it's on you know it works out differently than you think but it's always fun what what made you laugh what what exactly were you thinking when you said that well Well, you know, sometimes the guests want to do different songs than you've imagined.

And, you know, you always want to be kind and, you know, you always want to be, you know, they're giving of their time. So you want to go along with it. And sometimes that really works. And sometimes it doesn't. and sometimes it doesn't. But I've had great experiences with it because we had special guests from all kinds of types of music. It wasn't just like rock music,

special guests, and all age groups and all kinds. So we had a really good time with that and you never quite know what's going to happen. So I like the sort of unknown part of that. Yeah. Do you ever miss Bill Wyman up there on stage when you're up there?

Oh, yeah, I miss his dancing. But I manage to get, I see Bill quite often in London. He's a very sweet guy. And, but, you know, you know. Yeah. It was a long time, it's a long time ago that he left the band now.

You know, it's years. I don't know how many years. It seems a long time. Well, the last time I saw you live was in 1981 at Madison Square Garden. Whoa, that's a long time. You must come more recent, you know, come again. Definitely. I definitely want to come again.

It was such an amazing experience for me because I was, you know, we'd gotten our tickets through a lottery. And I remember at the time, I don't know if you remember, I think that James Brown was supposed to open for you, We've gotten our tickets through a lottery. And I remember at the time, I don't know if you remember, I think that James Brown was supposed to open for you, but something happened and Screaming Jay Hawkins. That was in the garden, and then he canceled. Yeah, and Screaming Jay Hawkins opened. That's right, but that's a pretty amazing opening act.

It was a trip, man. I mean, he was up there. Totally mad. Yeah, he's up there with his voodoo stick all alone. It was crazy. Yeah, he's up there with his voodoo stick all alone. It was crazy. Yeah, really crazy. So you remember. You've got to come more than once every 30 years.

I know, Mick. I'm going to. I'm going to. So you're going to come. So you should give me a call. You should book the tickets. Come with your friends, and we'll make a special place for you. Really?

And come and enjoy yourself. I will definitely take you up on that. Yeah. Yeah. I would, I would die. Like I, you know,

I tell you, man, I, you know, I, I, are you in Los Angeles? I am.

Yeah. And I love you guys. You come to San Diego. I will. You just don't, it's like, I've loved you guys all my life. And you know,

when I knew I was going to talk to you, I had no idea, you know, what that was going to feel like for me. I'm sitting here. I've got you guys all my life. And when I knew I was going to talk to you, I had no idea what that was going to feel like for me. I'm sitting here. I've got a huge poster right here in the garage. I've got a bunch of stuff on the wall. And there's a huge poster for the reissue of the Gimme Shelter movie with your face. So I see your face every day.

And me and my buddy Dean Del Rey were just in the house listening to Stones music. It's crazy, man. I'm a huge fan. So I look forward to seeing you there. Well, Mick, it was great. It was a real honor to talk to you. Nice to talk to you. Take care.

Take care. Bye. Bye. Dude. Dude. Oh, man. That was fucking amazing, man. You were like, your tears were...

I know. I had tears because it's like i i get choked up because the guy is so nice and real and alive yeah you know what i mean he's so alive he's like hey mark how are you i got that i'm in the west indies and you're just like i wanted to keep him on the phone my fucking arm i was i was losing my mind it was so nice man and i worked for the band you know but you don't talk to the band like that's like a conversation he has with people you know what i mean yeah that you just think like god man what a great dude yeah what how great was he great dude i I can't believe it. Did you see what happened, though?

We were leaving. I know. Right after the chick says to call in an hour. We're leaving. We're leaving the room. I couldn't believe it. We almost missed that, dude. I kept thinking that.

That was crazy. And I started fangirling out at the end. He's trying to get off the phone. I'm like, I just. Yeah, but still, man. At least he knows. He didn't just call. And he invited you and your

friends which i'm your friend dude to san diego man it sounded like they were kind of planning on doing the whole whole thing i know right he's like he's like yeah maybe i mean there's a lot of slow songs but i don't know i'm trying to sound like. Maybe I can make that show. Come on, dude. We got to go. Oh, how crazy was that? I can't even believe it. I can't either, dude, because we were walking out of the garage and it's like, boom, you're a little landline. I know.

And then he's like, no one told him I'll call in an hour. You could tell. He's in the West Indies. They just thought he was. No one told him. That was insane. And we would have missed that. I wonder if he an hour. You could tell. He's in the West Indies. They just thought he was. No one told him. That was insane. And we would have missed that. I wonder if he's on the phone right now.

I didn't like him at all. Nah, he's not like that. He was genuine, cool, fun. He was laughing and stuff. Okay, man. Well, thanks for hanging out. It's so crazy. We had these headphones on.

It was like he was right here. I know. I look over at you. You're welling up. I know. I couldn't believe it because I was just like, wow, man. It's so crazy. We had these headphones on. It was like he was right here. I know. I look over at you. You're welling up. I know. I couldn't believe it because I was just like, wow, man. What's happening? The guy is just a legend to me. Mick Jagger. Oh, yeah. You know what I mean? It was beautiful.

Beautiful. All right, dude. God damn it. So that was insane. Was that insane? Dean and I went into the house after that and just sat on the couch, sort of numb, and I played, we played Can't You Hear Me Knockin' off the original master recording of Sticky Fingers,

the album, the vinyl, louder than I've played anything on my stereo. And then we played the non-live version of Midnight Rambler, loud, louder than I've played anything on my stereo and then we played the non-live version of midnight rambler loud louder than i played anything and we sat there two grown-ass men slowly rocking our heads and occasionally i would jump up and play a little air guitar or break into a bit of air drumming with some singing we both did some singing and after it was done it it was just, you know, he looked at me and said,

dude, you just talked to Mick Jagger. I'm like, god damn, it's fucking crazy. Drew Friedman, the master. Master caricature artist, master cartoonist, master artist. Drew Friedman, who changed my life, I think the first time with his art with

in a book that he put together with his brother josh allen friedman it was called any similarities to persons living or dead is purely coincidental drew did the art i think josh i think they both did a little of the writing but mostly josh did the writing and it was just it's just the type of satire there was there's something about the way he captures yes show business personalities primarily with just the the slight there's a slight darkness to it there's a slight you know it's not a rawness but there's something haunting about the way he caricatures people and then he did another book with his brother called warts and all which were also disturbing but beautiful and then there's the old jewish comedians from fantagraphics fantagraphics is a great a great press a great

comic press uh you should go check out fantagraphics anyways at fantagraphics.com but let's get back to drew friedman the old jewish comedians are just pictures they're just portraits of old jewish comedians and there's old jewish comedians and there's more old jewish comedians and there's old jewish comedians and there's more old jewish comedians and there's even more old jewish comedians and these are spectacular books it's it's sort of specific but it's fucking amazing man it's fucking amazing the way he captures them there's something about the there's something almost demonic and beautiful about the way he captures show business. There's a vulnerability there, but there's a darkness there.

It's hard for me to even explain. He did The Fun Never Stops. He did Too Soon, Famous and Infamous Faces, 1995 to 2010. He's probably just a part of that. The point being that Drew Friedman is a master at the caricature art and the cartooning. And I just love him. And I've always loved his work. And he's got a new book out now

called Heroes of the Comics. It's available from Fantagraphics. It's got a foreword by Al Jaffe, another cartoonist who changed my fucking life. Al Jaffe, if any of you are old enough to sort of grow up with Mad Magazine, Al Jaffe was the fucking best. You can also check out all his work.

He does a lot of, there's a lot of posters available at drewfriedman.net. He's done amazing portraits of John Lennon, Frank Zappa, Frank Sinatra, Muddy Waters, Howlin' Wolf. I mean, they're just, for some reason, his sensibility and his subject matter just completely locks up with my sensibility. And the most glorious thing that happened was he did a portrait of me and I haven't used it with anything yet. And I'm about to get it framed.

And it's just, it's one of the, it's, it's, I honestly, folks, between Drew Friedman doing a portrait of me and me talking to Mick Jagger today, these are high points. This is bucket list shit. So it was a real pleasure for me to talk to Drew. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual

cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Calgary is an opportunity-rich city home to innovators, dreamers, disruptors, and problem solvers. The city's visionaries are turning heads around the globe across all sectors each and every

day. They embody Calgary's DNA. A city that's innovative, inclusive, and creative. And they're helping put Calgary and our innovation ecosystem on the map as a place where people come to solve some of the world's greatest challenges. Calgary's on the right path forward. Take a closer look at CalgaryEconomicDevelopment.com. Freedman. The first book of yours I got was, you know, Any Similarities to Persons With Misdemeanors Purely Coins.

And I'm glad they reissued it because I don't even think I have my original paperback copy got so beat up because it was so mind blowing to me. And I couldn't I'm not even sure I completely understand why, but it was haunting and it had an effect on me for my life. Somehow it made sense of something that seemed to be lurking in my in my being since the beginning. And I can't I'm not sure what it is. And then when you do all these other books about the old Jewish comics, I'm like, there it is again. There's something equally as disturbing and haunting about these characters as they are funny. I mean, I don't know where it comes from.

Where do you find it? I guess I've always had an obsession for things that nobody else is obsessed by. That's it? Basically, that's it. Nobody else gave a shit about this stuff, but I did for some reason. Well, let's figure out what the reason is.

Where'd you grow up? In New York, right? I grew up, yeah, New York, Long Island., 12 years of my life, Long Island, then Manhattan. I moved to Manhattan when I was 12. And why'd you move? I think my parents got bored with Long Island, finally. They finally, first they hated Glen Cove, and then they hated Great Neck. Yeah.

And then we finally made the plunge and moved to Manhattan. But your father was a writer. Yeah, and he still is, Bruce J. Friedman. And he was working in Manhattan, first as a magazine editor at this company called Magazine Management, where Stanley worked at the next table to him. But he was also writing his own books

and plays and short stories, and for the theater as well. Well, he's a very respected guy. He's one of the great dark wizards of the 70s, that generation like Heller and Vonnegut and the satirists that kind of wrote funny but kind of dark stuff. And those guys were his friends. Right. The guys I grew up with who were his pals were Mario Puzo and Terry Southern and Joseph Heller and Kurt Vonnegut.

Wait, so you're a kid. You're 11. How old's your brother? My older brother, Josh, is two years older than me. And he wrote the Tales of Times Square. He wrote that book, and he wrote a lot of the material in the first book, Persons Living or Dead. And we collaborated on comic strips early on in the 80s.

So you're growing up. You have a sister, too? No, we have a younger brother, Kip, and I have a younger sister, Molly. But we didn't grow up with her. She came a little later. Right, of a second marriage thing? Yeah. All right, so you're growing up in the 70s, in the late 60s and like who could be at the house at any given time like those

writers i named and terry southern terry southern was one of his best pals and jules pfeiffer was his friend you know he had all these writer friends but the guys who most impressed me were the cartoonists right he was friends with jules pfeiffer that blew my mind and maury sendak and later he got to meet people like Harvey Kurtzman. Those are the guys that impressed me. Those were my heroes. So you didn't like Terry Southern, not an entertaining gentleman?

I took him for granted. It was great to have him around and see him in the house. Drinking? Those guys. Yeah, well, yeah. I was too young to notice that kind of thing at the time. But I was friends with their sons.

I was friends with Terry Southern's son, Niall. Are you still? We're in touch. Yeah, Niall is making a movie about his father, Terry, was friends with their sons. I was friends with Terry's southern son, Niall. Are you still? We're in touch. Niall is making a movie about his father, Terry, now, actually. Finally. Well, actually, he's been working on it, I think, for the last 15 years. I think I heard that somewhere. It's a lifelong project, I think. Sons do that,

man. Yeah, I have no plans to make one about my dad, but I guess I'm... Maybe just a long comic. I haven't thought about that. Yeah, it would be more in the lines of a comic strip i had that guy uh denny denny tedesco whose father was uh uh was in the wrecking crew the studio musicians out here in la yeah he'd been working on this documentary for like 15 or 20 years and uh they made tommy tedesco's his father and he finally got distribution wow it came together wow well i know niles film is going to be great when it finally happens. I've seen some footage, and I've talked to Niall about doing the poster for it, possibly.

Yeah. So when it happens, I'm sure it'll be terrific. So when you were a kid, but you were part of this world that was fairly, you know, a very specific and kind of insulated world of like kind of a groovy New York intellectuals and writers and stuff. I guess I was there and I kind of grew up at Elaine's, which is my dad's hangout. So you went to Elaine's, you were in a booth at Elaine's growing up. Basically, but I didn't like it. I didn't like it so much. It was great to meet like,

you know, Al Pacino and Frank Sinatra and George Plimpton and all those guys that were at the tables and stuff. But I finally took it for granted. I want to be back in my bedroom with my guinea pig and my comic books and Mad Magazines and Monster Magazines and TV. Yeah. I wanted to just be in front of my TV. I didn't want to go to school or camp. I just wanted to watch TV. I just wanted to watch the Three Stooges. On Channel 11? Yeah, Channel 11, Channel 5, Channel 9,

WOR. Channel 11 was WPIX. I had Joe Bolton and Jack McCarthy, those gods. Yeah. And Soupy Sales was on Channel 5, Metro Media. So you remember Soupy Sales' show when it was first on? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember Soupy telling the kids to, like, go take money off their parents.

You remember it? I remember it specifically. I didn't do it, but I remember it, and I respected them for it, and I loved the fact that they suspended him for two weeks and then brought him back, and I remember all that specifically. You know his kids?

You know Hunt and Tony? I know all about them. I haven't met them, though. Oh, but you know some of those musicians around. Growing up in New York, that must have been exciting, right? It was, but again, I took it for granted. I had my own little world with the stuff I was obsessed with. Were you like a loner?

I was like a weird little, you know, I wasn't. In fact, I always had lots of friends and stuff. I've been popular in school. I was a class clown. You know, I have no respect for class clowns. It's too easy. The audience is built in. You know, it's like you don't win.

You don't earn that audience. I came to learn that later, but I was always popular but i just wanted to be in my heart you were hard on yourself about being class i thought about it later on i said that's that's nothing to brag about being class clown it's like people who say you know i was the class clown that's like you know well that sucks it's like did you ever have any aspirations to perform yeah i did actually but i was also kind of shy when I was younger. I was always obsessed with drawing. If you talk to people who knew me back when I was a kid in school, I was always bent over the desk drawing.

And that wasn't always a good thing because I was drawing my teachers naked, doing horrible things, all over the desk. Because I knew then I wanted to be a Mad magazine contributor. That was my goal. I wanted to be one of the idiots. So you read Mad before when it was small, when it was comic book form? When was that? Well, I got them later on in the paperback.

But I was born in 58, and Mad became the magazine in 55. Because that had a profound impact on me, too, when I first started reading it. But I think I was just a little older than me. But I can't remember the first ones I read. But my grandmother's neighbor had a stack of them. Like, Al Jaffe always was like the guy guy to me he's terrific i loved him and i and like the it's amazing what a profound influence it has on your life isn't it of course you know it had an influence on me but also i wanted to be part of it wasn't just like i loved it i wanted to be in it and that was my obsession to be a mad

contributor sure and i finally did at age 35 you know that that came true yeah that was my goal when i was a little kid, to work for May. I had to work for Topps, Bubblegum, like Wacky Packs and Ugly Stickers and stuff. That all came true. But also, I wanted to be a national lampoon, and that happened. So I guess I'm lucky, because my childhood goals came to pass. So you're done. Basically.

But I was just obsessed with drawing all the time, bent over my desk drawing at all times. But I knew I'm not fit all the time, bent over my desk drawing at all times. But I knew I'm not fit for anything else but what I do. So I knew that from an early age. I've never had a job in my life. Well, what do you think? Because when I think about Mad, I guess it gave me – because your subject matter is fairly specific and very unique. And I have to assume it's something a little more interesting than just doing something that no one else is doing because Mad Magazine and the Three Stooges and

watching Channel 11, those black and white TV shows and like you seem to have a mild obsession with Thor Thor I mean and Joe Franklin and there's a freak show element to it and I just remember the first time that I was a kid and I got and I saw that lobby card for Freaks

before I even saw the movie I saw that when I was like, you know, eight or nine. And it was like this portal into something I couldn't even figure out or understand. This humanity that was like vulnerable and creepy and sympathetic and everything just was loaded up in there. Did you feel that something was like, did you feel like a, like it's not morbid. I don't even know what I'm trying to get at. No, it was like the people that nobody else gave a shit about. I think as far as Tor, I just saw the potential in him. Tor Johnson, who was the big zombie who roamed around in Plan 9 from outer space and could

hardly speak, the big ex-wrestler. But I just saw the potential in him as a comic book character, as a guy in comics, because he had the white eyes like Dondi and Little Orphan Annie. So that was already there. Yeah. And just to have him like, you know, just those films he made were horrible, like Plan 9,

but the footage of him is beautiful and vampire roaming around the graveyards and whatnot. So I just wanted to transfer that to comic form, which is, you know.

Oh, so that's the way your brain was sort of wired. Yeah. You know, you saw how people will fit into comics. Yeah. I just thought he had

so much potential as a comic star. I saw that. On the cover of Any Similarity, is that Shemp is on the cover? Who's on the cover?

Well, Shemp is another guy because he's always everybody's least favorite stooge, Shemp Howard. So you're like, that's your guy. I don't even know if he's my favorite.

I love Curly Howard. To me, he's a god. He's like from another planet almost. Curly's so insanely funny. It's like, you know, and acting like a dog and rolling around.

He's like, but I love Shemp. I love all the Howard brothers, but there's something about Shemp because he looks like a real guy, I think. I figured it out. He looks like a guy I would see at bar mitzvahs and seders and stuff. Crazy uncles. Exactly. He didn't look like a comedian, although, you know, he did in a way. But he looked like just one of those crazy Jewish guys that I would see like a couple times a year.

Character. He reminded me of that. He was accessible. Right. Yeah. Where Larry was like sort of a year. It reminded me of that. Yeah. He was accessible. Right. Yeah. Where Larry was like sort of the, he was the guy in between. Yeah. He was like the audience's surrogate. You know, you could like always identify with Larry.

Right. He was just like there in the middle, even though he didn't know why he was there. And Mo, of course, was so angry at all. And that was so great. Yeah. And still is. Just watching him on YouTube, the clips of him just so angry about, you know. Yeah.

Everything. Yeah. And he's just as stupid as the others, but he's just, you know, angry and in charge somehow. Somebody elected him to be in charge, and he knew it. But there's something about Shemp, too, and the greasy hair and parted in the middle. Right. And he looked like a gentleman.

He was so ugly, and he was voted ugliest man in Hollywood, too. But I think I see beauty in ugliness. I always thought Boris Karloff was beautiful as Frankenstein monster. Yeah. And Shemp Howard, to me, is a thing of beauty. Well, yeah, I think that's it. That was it. You see beauty and ugliness.

Yeah, that's it. And I think that's what sort of confronts people when you look at your work, because it's so detailed, and there's a slight caricature to it, but you're sort of like acne, bumps, pimples. That's right. Everyone seems to be a little wet.

Right. There's a lot of moisture going on. People who smile too much. I pick up on all that stuff, but it's like the people like nobody else would, you know, my dad said, Drew always noticed the people and nobody else would notice, like elevator men. Yeah. And the guys who sell newspapers.

And it's true. I would like, you know, spend extra attention absorbing those guys. Do you sit there and like, do you have that moment where you're like, what is their life like? Because it seems like some, in any similarity, and we'll go through the other books, like you created a life for Joe Franklin in a way. Well, yeah.

Sitting in an undershirt or something. I can't remember now. The piece I did with Josh, which was his life story, we did some horrible things in that piece. He's actually coming out of his mother's vagina at the first panel. Looking like he does now. Right.

Basically the same head. And horrible things are happening. Yeah. But Joe chose to sue me finally. He did? He sued me for $40 million. And it was over a basically innocuous comic strip about him shrinking. And that was the thing.

He's very touchy about his height. It was called The Incredible Shrinking Joe Franklin. The piece is in the first book as well. But Joe was the thing. He's very touchy about his height. It was called The Incredible Shrinking Joe Franklin. The piece is in the first book as well. But Joe sued over that. And that's what was worth $40 million to him? Well, that was a reasonable sum, which I've always said. I had about $10 in the bank at the time. But he sued for 40. And it was finally dismissed. He also sued National Lampoon because it ran in heavy metal. You really pissed Joe Franklin off. That got to him. Yeah. The fact that I went after his height.

So it's no good with you two. No, that was like, you know, he sued Uncle Floyd for $35 million. He sued me for $40 million. Why did he sue Uncle Floyd? He sued him. Uncle Floyd did the Joe Frankfurter show. Right. He put on a big head and did Joe Frankfurter.

Right. You know who I had in here? Who's that? Marty Allen. Ah. Marty Allen. He's 95 and wanted to do the show. Did he take off his wig when he sat down here?

He didn't have a wig anymore oh really it's just sort of a weird thing going on when he performs in Vegas he lives in Vegas I think he has like a Kathy Lee Gifford

co-host it's his wife oh okay it's his wife that's right it's crazy remember when Steve Rossi the way they broke up

Alan Rossi broke up he got Slappy White to I didn't know that so it was like Rossi and White is that what he did yeah he got Slappy White brief so his- I didn't know that. Yeah, so it was like Rossi and White. Is that what he did?

Yeah, he got Slappy White briefed. So it was like a black and white team. But like Marty Allen, come on, he's walking up the hill. He's got a walker. There's two people that are with him and we're like, you need any help? He's like, no, no, hello there. Hello there. Nothing different.

What was he promoting even? I don't know why it happened. I think somebody who works for him said it'd be nice. You know, they knew I did Mel Brooks and Carl Reiner. So they're like, maybe Marty Allen. I never really thought about it. And I had to kind of go through the fact that it was a fairly substantial career he had. Well, yeah, of course.

He was as big as Martin and Lewis in the 60s. But they kind of replaced them in a way. Exactly, yeah. Once they kind of, I guess, that was the they were the guys that's right well in the city between me and you i'd never ever in my life it was sort of endearing in some sad way that uh you know like he has to use the bathroom he's 95 and then he leaves they leave and he had pissed all over the fucking floor did you clean up after i cleaned it was the first time i would go look at that piss if it was still there yeah well i wish i had it i would

take a photo of it i would take I would have taken Marty Allen's pee. Marty Allen's piss. Yeah. I cleaned up after Marty. It was the first time I cleaned up after a guest. And I have to, I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt that he didn't just piss on it on purpose. Well, you know, I've had people piss on my toilet too over the years.

On the floor. Everywhere. In my apartment. Everywhere. I had Dan Aykroyd come up to my apartment once with my dad. Yeah. They were working on a movie. It became a horrible movie, Dr. Detroit.

But he came up and used my bathroom and pissed a little on the floor in the seat. Yeah, yeah. And I really gave it some thought. Should I clean this up? Yeah. You're going to leave it? Or just preserve it and turn it into a shrine. Marty Allen's would be worth preserving.

I think so. But those guys are... There's not that many of those guys left. I'm in Los Angeles now. Just two years ago, three years ago, I went to the signing. Carl Ballantyne joined me in the signing at Skylight Books. And now he's gone. But like you were saying before, there's this idea, just the fact, the detail of Marty Allen's wig. That there is something, I think what you recognize, and I think as certainly as these people get older,

is that there's something horrendously grotesque about show business. You've noticed that too? Yeah. But I mean, it's sort of specific because as things get glossier and you don't get to see, you don't have that experience, like the way you capture Bob Hope or Milton Berle as they're aging or in different situations where you're taking this icon and making them probably just as dirty as they really are on some level,

that everything's gotten so squeaky clean and so protected that that type of show business doesn't exist anymore. Yeah, that's a good point. It's part of the charm of it. That's a good point. I just saw Larry Storch was, you know, he did his last show at the Comedy Store because he started there when it was Ciro's.

I didn't see the show, but I saw him after. And there's something like even that place. You go to the Comedy Store? No. You've never been? Not for a while. I mean, it used to be Ciro's. I didn't see the show, but I saw him after. And there's something like even that place. You go to the comedy store? No. You've never been? Not for a while. I mean, it used to be Ciro's. It used to be the fucking place. I should get over there. Well, you should just feel it. I think you'd enjoy the feeling because she hasn't changed

it much. Good point, yeah. I gotta squeeze a lot into this trip, and that's something I'll do. Yeah, I mean, I don't know if you get off on that stuff. I mean, outside of drawing these guys, do you get off on old Hollywood? Oh, I do. You know, when my dad was writing screenplays in the late 60s, he used to bring my brothers and I out, but he would bring us out individually.

So he'd always scoop me up and bring me out. And I wanted to get right over to Hollywood Boulevard and just like see whatever is preserved from the past. Right. Wherever Ed Wood worked, things like that, you know. You're fascinated with Ed Wood? Oh, of course. the past right wherever ed wood worked things like that you know you're fascinated with ed wood of course uh we're actually doing a uh an interview with with larry akezarowski and

scott alexander wrote the ed wood film tomorrow i'm going to join them for an interview but they're pals what was it about him uh well the fact that he had just basically he had virtually no talent but he also but he was just obsessed with like proving himself like you know just get it putting it putting his work out there even though he had nothing to offer, basically. And I admire that so much. People have nothing to offer, but still they want to offer it. I think Zero Mostel says, all I can offer is failure. People demand success.

All I have to offer is failure in producers. I love that line. How Jewish did you grow up? Not at all. I didn't go to Hebrew school. Nothing? No. We went to bar mitzvahs and seders and stuff, and I used to laugh at all my friends and

relatives who had to go through that stuff. But my parents were fallen away Jews, I think. What screenplays did your old man write? Well, over the years, he's written... The Heartbreak Kid was based on his short story. Neil Simon wrote that, turned that into the movie. It's a great movie. Yeah, the original, not the new one. No, yeah, the original. Then he wrote movies like

Stir Crazy and Splash. Did he write Stir Crazy? Yeah. That's a good movie. That's fun. Richard Pryor's great. Yeah. There's some good stuff on that. He wrote Splash, Dr. Detroit, The Lonely Guy. He wrote The Lonely Guy? Yeah, with Steve Martin films. He had a good run in the 80s.

Grodin was great. He was. He was. He was. He was very subdued. Grodin was actually obsessed with that book, my dad's book. Which one? Lonely Guy's Book of Life, which they based the movie on. Yeah.

He used to read passages from it, so it was great that they got him. Was he a family friend? Yeah, he actually goes back with my father because he was in Steam Bath, my father's play, when it was off Broadway. And then he starred in Steam Bath my father's play when it was off Broadway and then he was in he starred in The Heartbreak Kid so they've had this they've had this

you know over the years over 50 years now because he was just in this short film that was made of my dad's one of my dad's

short stories with Michael Cera yeah starred in it and used Chuck Charles Grodin as his dad in that you get along

with your dad yeah we're great friends that's good yeah always yeah we've never had any there's never been any issues. We're pals.

Yeah. He's doing, he's 84 and, you know, he's had some health issues, but, you know, we get along great. Now, when you started drawing, like, when did you first start doing panels? I mean, as opposed to just doodling and really focus on, you know, creating comics. The first panel comic strip we ever did was actually the Andy Griffith piece, which was about, you know, Josh wrote it. Excellent, excellent script. And I drew it.

It was the late 70s. I was still going to school, School of Visual Arts. My teachers were Harvey Kurtzman, Will Eisner, Art Spiegelman. So, like, explain to me and to, like, the people that listen, because, like, I mean, I know there's people that, in the world of comics, you know,

there's the world that you're from, and then there's also the world of mainstream comics. Other than Stan Lee, it seems like a lot of the guys that you gravitated towards were, were not underground, but definitely off to the side of Marvel, right? Well,

I grew up, you know, like I said, my dad worked next to Stanley. So he'd deposit all these comics into my bedroom every Friday. So there were stacks of that stuff, you know, brand new.

And I would hang out at Marvel comics with little kid, get to meet Stanley, Jack Kirby, those new. And I would hang out at Marvel Comics with Little Kid, get to meet Stan Lee, Jack Kirby, those guys. And like I said, I wanted to be a mad contributor. But as I got older, I did become obsessed with Robert Crumb. I mean, that's like what he was doing just blew my mind. I had never seen anything like that. It changed my life as far as an artist and my whole perspective. Was that in the 60s or was it around when it was happening?

I was like way too young to even be looking at that stuff. I was eight years old. You're supposed to be an adult. So like that one up there, like that first Zap comic maybe? Yeah, sure. That might have been the first one I was looking at. I actually drew that recently for another book

where I discover Robert Crumb's work and it blew my mind. It was like, I knew I shouldn't have been looking at it. It was so forbidden and I was like seeing things. It's like, what the, you know, it's like looking at.

That's where I learned how to, where the penis went when you did that thing. Yeah, he educated us all. He did. He did. So that's how it goes in there. the penis went when you did that thing yeah he educated us all he did he did that's how it goes in there you're a little younger than me

but I like was 8 years old in 1969 68 and looking at this stuff and like I you know I slipped the pile I slipped the comic book into the you know

pile of stuff my parents were buying they didn't pay any attention and I had like amassed a little collection but he changed my whole perspective about every like finally

all of a sudden I didn't want to be a mad contributor. I wanted to do underground comics. Well, what was it exactly that, that resonated? I used to look at his work and think like, there must be like a bunch of guys named Robert Crumb, because he had all these different styles, beautiful styles that, you know, and, and I would learn later that he just like would draw. He'd never like, he'd hardly do pencils. He would just draw with ink onto the paper. It was just all in his mind that he was like would draw. He'd never like, he'd hardly do pencils. He would just draw with ink onto the paper. It was just all in his mind.

And it came out like that. I don't believe in God, but I believe somehow he was like touched by God to like draw like that, like Frank Sinatra sings. It's just like- How's your process different? Well, I really work hard on penciling. Like I really do a tight pencil before I start painting.

It's like I really block it out. It's like almost like a map, which I follow when I'm painting. And also your style is very pointillistic. Well, it used to be. I used to do the little dots. No more? I guess not. Not for a few years. I switched over to watercolor to painting. I actually got bored with it, the stippling style. I don't even like the word stipple, but I'm not a fan of it. I was never a fan of it. But I love working with the brush. So my recent books, including my new book, Heroes of the Comics, is all watercolor. Everything's done with the brush.

But you still have that amazing sensibility. There is a sense of like, it's very hard, I think, to do something that reads as realistically, but on some level, because of the way they're framed and the way their body is structured, there is a caricature element to it, right? Yeah, I've been labeled a caricature. I don't think I am also a portrait artist. I'm just saying elements. There's a slight distortion.

That's it. Yeah. Just, that's it. But there's a slight, but it's not like, you know, I don't- It's not an extreme distortion, which would imply caricature. Exactly. It's a slight distortion. I don't see a chin and have to exaggerate.

I don't look at Jay Leno and say, I got to extend that chin. You know what? I'll make that chin even bigger. You know, that's what a caricature is designed for. So when you say, exactly. So when you say a slight distortion. Yeah, just like, and in fact, it's like. It happens naturally.

Perhaps you won't even pick it up. And perhaps in some cases there's no distortion. Right. Like with the Jack Benny, Jack Benny, Jack Kirby portrait on the cover. I don't think there's any exaggeration. It's what I wanted to capture was that melancholy, broken-down spirit. This guy who created all this work

over 50 years. Who was he? He did all the early Marvel superhero stuff. He invented, along with Stan Lee's writing, Fantastic Four and The Hulk and Captain America.

He invented what Stan Lee invented. He basically created all that stuff, like drew all that early work. Yeah. And he was not very well compensated, especially later in his life, and they kept all his artwork. They finally returned some of it. He wasn't appreciated.

He wasn't treated very nicely, I don't think. Did he ever get it? They returned some of his artwork years later, and only recently they worked out a deal. Marvel, who's owned by Disney, they worked out a deal to give his family some of the money that is due. Really?

Yeah, or some of the money they should. So this is like a sort of a beaten man kind of. It's kind of there, but still reflecting that amazing universe he created behind him in that swirling Jack Kirby-esque artwork. Yeah, and do you find that a lot of, well, you know, Stan Lee's doing fine. Yeah, well, he's 91.

He's still, you know, he still goes to conventions, and he's having fun. Like, you know, I'm sad to say, and maybe I'm alone in this, in that, you know, like my sense of comics, like I didn't grow up loving them, and there was a period maybe when I was in my 30s that I started reading a few. But I came into comics more around the stuff like Any Resemblance and the R. Crumb stuff. But in terms of mainstream comics, I never was that guy. Mad Magazine, definitely. But, like, I don't know who a lot of these people are.

Right. You mentioned Al Jaffe. He's in the book. So we got some of the mad guys in here. These are guys who started in comics, like in the 30s and 40s. So Al Jaffe and Mort Drucker, Harvey Kurtzman are in here. Yep. And William Gaines. I know all about when I was younger and then kind of moved away from that world. And I kind of lost interest in mainstream comics as the years, when the comics code came into being. What is that now? That little code you see, that little box.

Yeah. They kind of, the comic books became bland after that happened. They got rid of all the horror comics and crime comics and sex. There was no more sex in comics. It all became bland and whitewashed and sanitized. 55. So after that, I sort of lose interest in mainstream comics, and I jump a decade when Robert Crumb showed up,

and that's when I get excited. S. Clay Wilson? Yeah, those guys, yeah. I love that guy. My next book project might be portraits of all those guys, the Zap guys, including S. Clay Wilson. Those guys are Robert Williams is still around. He's in Los Angeles.

Yeah, he's here. Yeah, he's terrific. Yeah, he's good, but he he's terrific. Yeah, he's good. But he's after you, really, right? Well, you know, he's like a Zap guy. He's like one of the original Zap guys. I guess so, yeah. He did that chrome.

He drew a chrome. Right, right. Yeah, from the detailing. Yeah, yeah. But he was one of those essential, those seven guys who did Zap. Spain and him. Victor Moscoso, Rick Griffin, who died years ago. He did a lot of poster art.

He did the psychedelic stuff. Right. Now, you were in Lampoon and stuff. I mean, are you a Gehan Wilson fan? Well, yeah, sure. I love those guys. I kind of joined Lampoon when it was no longer funny in the mid-'80s. That's when I started doing work for them and stuff. And what about the other guy?

What's his name? Rodriguez? Yeah, Charles Rodriguez. He's something, right? He's terrific. Yeah, he's great. He's a hero. Gross work for them and stuff. And what about the other guy? What's his name? Rodriguez? Yeah, Charles Rodriguez. He's something, right? He's terrific. Yeah, great. He's a hero. Gross.

Yeah. Sam Gross. Yeah. Sam Gross is still kicking. Yeah. Yeah, all those guys. Bobby London, all the Lampoon guys. I idolize those guys.

Like I said, I wanted to be a Lampoon contributor after absorbing all that stuff. What was that guy? What was his name? Bodie? Vaughn Bodie. Yeah. Well, Bodie, yeah. He died early, too. But he's one of these guys who go to comic book conventions back in the 70s. What was that guy? What was his name? Bodie? Vaughn Bodie. He died well, Bodie, yeah. He died early, too. But he's one of these guys who used to go to

comic book conventions back in the 70s. And he would be there, but he looked like a rock star. He had long hair, like curled. It was curled. He looked kind of like Mark Bolan, almost. Yeah, he did look like him. And he had groupies around, too. So it was like, the guys I drew in my book, Heroes of the Comics, are like these anonymous-looking guys.

They look like stockbrokers. The guys you would never notice. And all of a sudden, are like these anonymous looking guys. They look like stockbrokers. Yeah, yeah. Guys you would never notice. Right. All of a sudden, they've got these guys in the 70s that look like rock stars. Yeah. Showing up at conventions with groupies around them, long hair. What was a comic book convention like in the 70s? You know, they were like kind of-

What is it, like 100 guys? A big room with all these versions who were into buying comic books. And me, I was obsessed with the EC Comics. I wanted to buy old EC Comics and underground comics. Which one was those, the EC Comics? Well, like Tales from the Crypt, Walter Horror, Early Mad. When Mad was a comic book, it was an EC comic. That was my obsession.

Do you have a collection now? No, I got rid of them years ago. Really? I used to have thousands. You let them go? Yeah, I sold them all. I sold a huge pile. Did you make money?

When Kathy and I married, I was just like, I don't want to like you know take this stuff with me everywhere we move I made 500 bucks I just said let me just get rid of it all oh do you regret that no because they were yellowing anyway

they smelled bad you know what am I going to do with this stuff you know I'd already absorbed them you know I kind of like

went through them and I didn't need them anymore I'm not an obsessive collector thank God I have stuff Kathy thank God not an obsessive collector no I have

I have stuff and people send me stuff they give me stuff which is wonderful but i don't i don't seek i don't seek out anything anymore but i have an amazing collection somehow now as a guy so you say you didn't do like panels or stories until you and your brother started doing it after college i mean you were just drawing you know free you just were just i was doing well i was going to a school of visual arts but when did you go i mean when you were in drawing, you know, free. You just were just doodling. Well, I was going to a school of visual arts. But when did you go? I mean, when you were in high school. I was always obsessively drawing.

Just like Basil Wolverston, I was obsessed with him. He was the guy who drew the insane, like, monster faces. It looked like he was drawing, like, noodles. It looked like his line was made from a noodle. Were these in the EC Comics? Sometimes EC, sometimes MAD. He did his own comic books. You know his work instantly. He did a Mad. He did his own comic books. You'd know his work instantly.

He did this, a couple of covers of Mad comic books. So like, you'd never forget his work once you see his work. Like skeleton showing? Not really.

Well, not really like grotesque kind of stuff. Well, yes, grotesque, but not monsterish. Right,

right. Not like ghoulish kind of things. Like cartoony, but he, like Robert Crumb was obsessed with him early on,

and Art Spiegelman and those guys, and books of his work. Is he in this book? Your book? Yes, he is. Yes, he's in there. But guys like him and Harvey Kurtzman, Don Martin, all the mad guys were my idols. Mort Drucker especially, and Al Jaffe, and Bob, even the lesser mad guys. I just would absorb, stare at their work.

A lot of the times I didn't even read the stuff. I just wanted to look at the artwork. Yeah, you know, I just like would absorb, stare at their work and just, you know. A lot of the times I didn't even read the stuff. I just wanted to look at the artwork. Yeah, yeah. I was so obsessed. But Don Martin's sense of humor and Morton Drucker's caricature work and all of it, I was just absorbed by all of it. And I just wanted to be part of it somehow. And so that's, you know, here I am today.

But when you went to college. Well, I was going to art school. I wanted to be a cartoonist, but I didn't know which particular direction to go in. What did you learn in art school, though? Not much. I was pretty hard to teach. I kind of went in knowing what I wanted to do, which was draw what I was particularly obsessed with.

I picked up on the stipple work. I just casually started... I wasn't a fan of it. It slowed me down because I used to draw really fast. Yeah. And that was a handicap because- The simple work was what? The point?

Yeah, the pointillism really slowed me down. I had to concentrate. But you chose to do that for years. Yeah, I did. It was like an experiment. And then it became associated with you? It became like, yeah, yeah. But it was good because I think it set me apart. It was like, oh, he's But it was good because it like, I think it set me apart.

It was like, oh, he's the guy who does that kind of work. Yeah. And he's, you know, he's good at it. And there's nobody else really around who does that, especially cartoon humorous work. Right. They're stipple artists, but most of their work is like kind of boring.

It's like drawings of curtains and clouds, you know, tapestry. So that's an actual. And I was drawing Tor Johnson's face and Shem Howard and this meticulous stipple work. But finally, too meticulous, it just slowed me down.

Also the tapping, constant tapping. We had a little apartment on 6th Street in Manhattan when Kathy and I first got together and I would have deadlines

and I'd be working at two in the morning tapping away and the bed was like three feet away and she'd have to get up to go to work. So finally,

she had to say something. It's worse than cocaine than cocaine yeah it was driving her nuts it was gonna it was gonna destroy the relationship or you know and i wasn't that you know it wasn't that important to me to just get so i phased it out over but it was a sort of uh an odd usage of a of a technique right that you made your own i think so yeah and also but mainly it did slow me down because i was drawing way too fast, and I was not concentrating enough, as much as I should be. I wasn't giving it enough thought,

just drawing way too fast. Who were your teachers over there? Well, Harvey Kurtzman was one guy. How old was he then? He was actually my age, and he was like 56, which, you know. But he was one of the original Mad Guys? Yeah, he actually invented Mad. You know, he conceived Mad, was their first editor drew uh wrote everything in mad the first 24 issues practically everything and what

did you learn from him he was a hero he was a hero but you know i loved harvey kurtz i love thinking about him and talking about him but he was not a great teacher i was not a great student but he wasn't a great teacher he was like basically there just to like you know kind of hang out with the students and show them stuff. It was mainly being around him, being in his presence. He was kind of a guru. So any kind of advice he offered, which was seldom, but anything was just right on the money. And he also recognized who in the class had potential or had talent worth paying attention to and who might go play?

So he kind of singled me out. Mark Newgarden as well. My friend Kaz, cartoonist. I think I have some of his stuff. Yeah, he's terrific. I'll be seeing him later. Very different than you. Yeah.

And actually, Kaz is an old friend. And Kathy's friends with him, too. We go way back. We didn't like each other at first because he was a Jersey City Lithuanian punk. And I was a privileged Upper West Side Jew. Yeah. And we just seemed to have nothing in common,

and we kind of circled each other like we didn't like each other. But what do you call his style? It's sort of a throwback. You're right. Yeah, yeah. His style is kind of like the next step from like L.Z. Seeger, the guy who created Popeye. Right.

Like the updated Popeye, you know, especially in the 80s and like the punk era and the new wave comics and stuff. He kind of took that style and updated it. And his stuff is still horrific and funny. And I think I'm the first guy who ever said to him, like, Kaz, your stuff is really funny. And he never thought about that because he was more into the artsy kind of- Right, right. And I was briefly editing National Lampoon's comic section.

I brought him in and he said, why'd you ask me to do? I said, I think your stuff is really funny. And he had never considered that. It was not his point. He acknowledges that. He saw himself more as an artist. Yeah, yeah. He was like,

but he's a comics artist. He also loved Robert Crumb. He wanted to be a cartoonist and he wanted to do comics just like me. So we had this parallel kind of existence. And now Will Eisner

is like this grand, you know, this mythic presence. Explain to me his importance. Well, he was a legendary guy in the world of comic books, although his work- For what reason? His work in comics was very brief, just a couple of years.

But actually, when he was very young, like 20, 21, he started this artist's shop, what they call a shop, with another guy 10 years older than them, where they bring in, when comics were exploding, when Superman just happened. Right. So Will Eisner had the foresight to think about opening this shop where hire all these young artists and turn out all this work

and completed comic books stories. He'd hire writers, artists, inkers, and all these 40 guys crammed in a room creating these comics. And he was like in charge and would block out stuff for them and everything. He was like in charge. But then he gave all that up to concentrate on his character, the spirit, which he started. And that was done for a newspaper supplement. It was like the first.

It was like he broke away from comic books early on. But, you know, he was like another guy who was influenced by movies, especially like something like Citizen Kane. Right. Where his panel structure was just like so influenced by Orson Welles and what he was saying in the film noir. And his panel breakdowns were beautiful. Like that long focus business. Yeah. Yeah.

And like, yeah, the angles and things you would never see in anybody else's work. And he was like there at the beginning with that. So that was groundbreaking. So he was, yeah. So he was a teacher and he was from the old school so his class was really structured unlike harvey kurtzman right which was character so character casual will's class was really structured where he would the whole one particular class would be all about word balloons and and his in will eisner's mind it's like how to draw comics the will eisner way yeah it was like basically his

thinking but that's not a bad way to learn from. Well, like, he had all these obsessive students around who were like, oh my God, Will Eisner. And I was there and I just wanted to draw my stuff. Yeah.

And Will didn't quite, you know, Will and I got along. We had a, you know, he enjoyed my sense of humor. He didn't quite get what I was drawing.

I was working on a comic about Fred Mertz in his class. And I would, you know, sit in the class and just stipple, like, you know, and he'd look and he said,

Drew, what are you... Call me Friedman. Friedman, what are you doing? You're wasting time. Comics are not about William Frawley. They're about heroes and villains

and heroines and sidekicks. Not about Fred Mertz. He was baffled by that kind of stuff. He thought I was throwing away my talent on stuff like that.

Yeah. But I always enjoyed him. He was like a raconteur. He loved to talk about the old days. That's funny. He was like, he was old school. He was like, what are you doing? Who cares about Fred Mertz?

He was old school, but also he was like 60 at the time, which to me, again, sounds really young now, but he wasn't like an old, old man. He was like 60 when I had him. But he was really old school. He was like from another era, from the 30s and 40s. And what was your relationship with Spiegelman? Well, again, he was another teacher and also- He taught there too?

Jesus. So was this like the folk, they had a comic major, cartoonist major? This was the late 70s. It was Harvey Kurtzman, Will Eisner, and Art Spiegelman were my three teachers during the week. You know, most of the students in the class, they didn't know who they were. It was nothing special. They were just like the teachers, you know.

But for me, it was like the Mount Rushmore of cartooning. Right. Art Spiegel hadn't created Mouse yet. But he was, you know, I knew him from Underground Comics. He was very intense about teaching comics. Smoking those camels? Yeah, constant smoking of cigarettes but also so intense and had such a deep love

for comics and the history of comics and stuff that nobody else had appreciated yet. Like, history of comics including like teaching things about like,

like Leonard Moulton like would, was the first guy who wrote a Three Stooges bibliography. No film scholar had ever thought about that. Yeah.

But Art Spiegel was the first like historian or a comics historian or teacher that actually discussed Mad Magazine in a class or Mad Comic Book. Or Crazy Cat. Yeah, that stuff. Yeah. Especially Crazy Cat and stuff from the 20s.

And what'd you learn from that? Well, it's like, you know, I was such a wise guy back when I was a teacher. I didn't want to be bothered with it. I mean, student. I hardly wanted to be bothered. I wanted to be kind of left alone, do my own thing. But I appreciated, like, his passion for that stuff. And then at the time, he was creating his own magazine,

right at that time, 1980, called Raw. Yeah, I remember that. And he was looking for young contributors, and he picked specifically me and Mark Newgarden and Kaz to be in the first issue, which was terrific. What was the other guy's name? Panther. Yeah, Gary Panther.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, he's terrific, too. He used to be in Los Angeles. He's in Brooklyn now. Yeah. He did this amazing punk kind of thing. Yeah, yeah, he's terrific, too. He used to be in Los Angeles. He's in Brooklyn now. Yeah. He did, like, this amazing, like, punk kind of thing. Yeah, yeah, it was interesting. And they also did covers of Time Magazine and stuff at the same time.

I think I have a couple of the old Raws up there somewhere. Yeah. That was amazing. It was a huge book. Great. Yeah, it was, like, large size. It was, like, Life Magazine size comic. You know, it was, like, the next step from Underground Comics, which were kind of, like,

over at that point, 1980. Why did you and your brother, like, you and your brother did how many books together? Two? We had two books come out. The first one was Person's Living or Dead with the Shemp cover. The second was called Warts and All with the warts, embossed warts that Stevie Wonder could enjoy. And then after that, we kind of like drifted apart.

He was a magician, musician. magician musician yeah to Dallas I moved to Pennsylvania we kind of also I wanted to branch out and do work for um I was doing work for spy magazine so I was doing a lot of illustration work magazine what happened to that fucking magazine you know it had its time and then everybody moved on like Kurt Anderson moved on to the radio and Graydon Carter like became editor of some magazine I forget what it is do you stuff like that you know everybody moved on and got bored with it. All the writers moved to Hollywood, either moved to Hollywood or became screenwriters. So it's like a stepping stone.

Right. I was happy with it. I even got bored with it finally. Sure. But it was like, at one point, it was like the magazine. You couldn't miss an issue of Spy in the mid-'80s, late-'80s. I had some fun. Although I did stuff like, they said, Drew, we have a thing about Michael Milken.

I said, okay, that's fine. You got to tell me who Michael Milken is. It's like, you know, or Lee Atwater. It's like, I don't know who these guys, you know. Do you have any room for my Milton Berle piece? Yeah, I was thinking along that. Like, I could draw, like, the politicians like Reagan, but like some of these guys are out of left field.

I said, look, I'm fine with it, but you just got to explain to me who these people are. But then you do a portrait. I've got to buy some of these. You do a portrait. I'm doing research now on Norman Lear, and you've got a picture of Nat Hyken, who was very important to Norman Lear. Yeah. And you're a kid compared to Norman Lear. And where does Nat Hyken play into your mythology?

To me, Nat Hyken was the greatest. This is my opinion. I hate these guys. They make these statements. But to me, he's the greatest genius, comic genius, who ever worked in television. He created the Bilko Show for Phil Silvers and Car 54, Where Are You?

Yeah. Which to me is like a masterpiece. Every episode. And you did Joey Ross too, right? Yeah. Which is, to me, is like a masterpiece in every episode. And you did Joey Ross too, right? Yeah, well, he's another guy. He's like a horrible, like obnoxious burlesque comedian. Nobody saw the potential in him

as having any kind of career outside of burlesque comedy with strippers and stuff. Nat Hyken recognized it and actually called him in the middle of the night. Joey Ross was in bed with a hooker.

Yeah. And Nat Hyken called him and said, look, I want you to audition for the Bilko show Joey Ross hung up on him he was being punked but he called him back

and then he wound up on Bilko as Rupert Ritzik who was the chef and then they co-starred with Fred Gwynn in Car 54 and he's brilliant I think he could hardly deliver a joke or a line, but he's just such a presence, such a face.

Do you ever read, I don't know if you know about, do you know Cliff Nesteroff? Oh, sure. I'm seeing him tonight, and yeah. I did a piece with him. I just want to make sure you guys know each other. Oh, sure, sure. He fascinates me because he's a really young guy.

He's like early 30s. Yeah, when I started reading his stuff, I was like, who the fuck is this guy? He was up in Vancouver, and I met him. He used to 30, early 30s. Yeah, when I started reading his stuff, I was like, who the fuck is this guy? And he was up in Vancouver. And I met him. He used to do shtick. I do stand-up. He used to do stand-up.

But I thought he was going to be this old wizard. And he's just this young, wiry, little nerdy guy. I know, I know. Not even Jewish. And he's fascinated. Go figure. Yeah, I don't know where he comes from. He really captures almost exactly the same thing that you capture as an illustrator, as an artist, the tone of his prose.

He just put on Facebook, Drew and I are kindred spirits. I believe that. I don't know where he comes from either. I don't know much about his background. I know he's a young guy. I think I helped him get into this country when he wanted to move to Los Angeles. I wrote a letter on his behalf explaining why he's a terrific writer. And also, he's writing this book on the history of 20th century comedy.

Yeah, yeah. I can't wait to see. I hooked him up with the agent. Yeah. Yeah. For Grove Press. Right. I think he got the contract after he was on your show.

Right. So, yeah. Yeah, I just- So, he should dedicate the book to you, I think. Well, maybe he will. I'm saying it. I'm saying it. There was a couple of things that he wrote that just sort of changed my mind about it.

Or just sort of like, I just found the tone was perfect. He is. He's great. And he's a hell of a researcher. He's completely obsessed. I helped him with a few interviews like he did Bill Persky, the Dick Van Dyke, who's a pal of mine from the East Coast. I hooked him up with him.

And then I'm in touch with Jerry Lewis. So I talked to Jerry Lewis occasionally. And I said, Jerry, this is this guy, Cliff Nestorhoff, who was doing this book on 20th century comedy. He loved to interview. Cliff Nesterhoff? He couldn't get over that name. He had to repeat it over and over. Drew, tell him to call me.

I'll talk to him. And did he? I think Cliff called him, and it was one of those, all right, call me back on Tuesday. I'll talk to you then. And I don't think it ever happened. So you're close with Jerry Lewis. You know, Kathleen Freeman, when she talks about Jerry Lewis, people say, like, well, don't think it ever happened so you're close with jerry lewis you know um there's this kathleen freeman when she talks about jerry lewis people say like well what's he really like she goes well

he's been nice to me right and that's my feeling towards jerry you know you hear all these stories and stuff i don't know what to believe right you know probably they're all true right he's been nice to me he calls me and goes drew what are you working on? And I said, well, you know, I'll explain. I've drawn him a few times. And, you know, he's just like he called in once. He said, Drew, how do you do what you do? And I said, I can't explain that, Jerry. How do you do what you do? He said, I can't explain.

But I love because he has no ego around me. It's like he doesn't talk about himself. And I only want to talk about him. You know, I love Jerry Lewis. I think there's a childish sort of weird emotional thing to him. Like it seems to me

like no ego because you'd think like on some level he's got a tremendous ego and then on this other level when I hear people talk about him it's almost like

he's like 12. Is that. I think, you know, he's got a tremendous ego but I think he thinks about things like, you know, people think I have

a large ego. I got to come off, people think I have a large ego. I've got to come off like I don't have a large ego. So he comes off sometimes. If you catch him on a good day, it's not there. What other people that you've drawn of that generation, specifically in all of the three old Jewish comedian books, did you build a relationship with? Well, Jerry was one

of the first guys who called and what happened was when the first book came out, the Fantagraphics sent it out to some of the

still living comedians. Yeah. So when it came out, I got a call from Mickey Freeman who was on the Bilko show. He since died.

He loved, Drew, I loved the book and Freddie Roman who was the dean of the Friars. He's still around. Yeah,

Freddie's around. Sadly, his son Alan died. Horrible. He became a good friend. Friars. He's still around. Yeah, Freddie's around. Sadly, his son, Alan, died. Horrible. He became a good friend. We loved Alan. He was a nice guy. He was, a real sweet guy.

That was so sad. Freddie's still around. I think he's a little broken by that. Yeah. But Freddie called. He loved it. And then the third call was left as a message. Drew called me back.

It's Jerry Lewis. And he left his number twice. Yeah. So I said to Kathy, I said, oh, shit, Jerry's mad. I said, what did I do? I gave him that stupid expression or I didn't put him on the cover. I put Milton Berle on the cover. So I called him back.

I got my nerve up and called him back. Hey, Jerry, you got the book? Yes, Drew, I got the book. So what'd you think? He said, I loved it. Jesus Christ, what a book. And then after that, we became friends. He invited us out to the second to the last telethon

is his guest Kathy and I went out to Las Vegas to this how was that it it was kind of surreal I think we lasted 15 minutes to watch watching the show but it was mostly like watching Richard Belzer sit up there with Jerry's daughter and and the whole Lewis clan and right it was fascinating that kind of stuff you friends with bells I've met him over the years that I don't know if I'm no I don't think I'm friends with him. He's a nice guy. Yeah, he is. But so that's the only guy that you really got to know with Jerry?

Actually, since then, you know, we became friends with Larry Storch. He's done some signings with us. He was at a thing we did. Is he coming out tonight? No, I don't think, you know, he's not in the greatest shape. Well, he's in good shape, but he's in his 90s, so it's hard for him to travel. Right. But we did, I had a Jewish comedian show in New York at the Society of Illustrators earlier in the greatest shape well he's in good shape but he's in his 90s so it's hard for him to travel right but we did I had a Jewish comedian show

in New York at the Society of Illustrators earlier in the year where all the original art was shown and the opening had Joe Franklin showed up

and Paul Schaefer and and and Gilbert Gottfried and Robert Klein and Larry Storch and Abe Vigoda was the special guest

yeah you know so people were like and he sat there for an hour posing for photos. So it was, you know, everybody who passed on going to that opening, like regret, still regret it. Uh-huh. That was the party of the century. Yeah. Now, who wrote the text for the new book, Heroes of the Comics? I wrote all the text for that.

Yeah. I knew a lot of that stuff over the years. I kind of, from an early age, I became obsessed with learning about those guys who drew those comics and wrote those comics. So I knew a lot of it, but I also researched a lot for the new book. So it was suggested that I might bring in another writer. But I said, no, this has to be from me, my feelings about them. And most of these guys I admire. Some of them I don't.

It was suggested also that perhaps the book should be called Heroes and Villains of the Comics. But I said, no, I don't want it to be that specific. If there's some villains in the book, I'll let people figure that out for themselves. Well, there's a couple. It's debatable, but this guy, Bob Kane, who created Batman. Yeah. I'm putting created in quotes because it actually was created by, written by a guy named Bill Finger, drawn by a guy named Jerry Robinson. Bob Kane did the early artwork.

Yeah. Very crude for the first piece and some of the early stuff. But it was all like, he had a whole staff, but they never got credit. Right. That was a lot of things with these guys. Most of them never got credit. know right did this work they were happy to have the work they weren't looking to make big a lot of money but they went uncredited a lot of them did so i'm giving them their you know their due i think a lot of you know just

showing what they look like and presenting their life stories yeah but uh some of the other villains might be um uh frederick wortham would be the main guy who guy. He's the last image in the book. And he's the guy who wrote Seduction of the Innocent, which was the book about how comic books are causing juvenile delinquency. And that led to the Comics Code

and comic books and the EC Comics ending and some of the other ones. And was he a cartoonist? No, he was actually a psychologist with a lovely record of doing some great work. He operated at Harlem in the 20s and 30s and then all of a sudden became obsessed with how comic books were

harmful for children and also changed a lot of the facts, changed a lot of his research to where he would just add things just to make things seem more horrible horrible than they were and why'd you include him in the book well you know he's like he was a hero because he had such a profound effect on comic books finally like shutting down ec comics shutting down lev gleason uh turning comic books bland if so he in a way he could be a villain but to me he's a hero because he just uh spawns you it would be hard to do yeah it'd be hard to do a book and not include him. And also what's interesting about him is later in life, as he was an old man, he became obsessed with comic book fanzines

and even wrote a book about them, sort of as a penance maybe for what he did to comic books, and then showed up at some of the conventions and got booed and never appeared again, which is fascinating. So the way you spin it is that even though he may have been misguided, the action that came from his research was to liberate cartoonists. Well, in a way, yeah. He kind of like, you know, as I say, I lose interest in mainstream comics after what he

was responsible for happened. So on some level, he freed you guys. I think so. And probably other people as well. Like I wasn't like looking to the mainstream for that kind of stuff. And then Robert Crumb came along a few years later. And what, now what do you, what do you use as source material? Because a lot of these guys are dead. Well, that's tricky because a lot of them, aside from being dead, I didn't want to annoy any relatives. Right. I didn't seek out to like, could you send me

photographs of, without, in a couple of, I made a couple of exceptions, like Bill Gaines' daughter, Wendy, who was like an old family friend. She sent me a couple of photos of her grandfather, Max Gaines, who was Bill Gaines' father. Bill Gaines is the mad publisher. His dad, Max, was the guy who actually invented comic books in the early 30s. The first guy to figure out, just staple a bunch of newspaper comics into one magazine, and that was a comic book. That hadn't been done yet. That was him?

The first one who figured that out. That was Max? Yeah, Max Gaines. And then later on, he was one of the guys instrumental in Superman and realizing the potential for Superman and Wonder Woman and some of that stuff. And then he started this company called EC, Educational Comics. It was very, it just like limped along. It was bland. It was unappealing. It appealed to little children. Yeah. Tiny Todd Comics. He died

in a boating accident in 1947. He was in his early fifties. And the son and the company fell to the son, William, who was training to be a science chemistry teacher, a chemistry teacher, a high school chemistry. Right. He had no interest in comics. And all of a sudden it was like, you know, sort of like Citizen Kane where he, you know, where all of a sudden this company was his. And so, okay, let me make the best of it. And then it built up from there. He hired Al Feldstein. And little by little, it built up. To Mad Magazine. Well, it built up where they would introduce the horror stuff and the crime. Right. And then he gave Harvey Kurtzman free reign to create Mad. And they did these beautiful war comics, like realistic war comics for the first time.

And then Mad. And then it just ended, like abruptly, in 1955, and that was it. And just Mad was left. And Mad still exists, doesn't it? Yeah, it still comes out. And some of the guys are still around, right? Only Al Jaffe.

That's it. From the original. Now, he's not even one of the original guys, but only Al. But Don Martin's dead? Yeah. Jack Davis is retired. Ward Drucker's retired.

Yeah. They're still kicking. Dave Berg? Yeah, he died a few years ago. Paul Coker, you might remember him. Yeah. He's still around. He still does work for them.

Very few. It's mostly new guys. I do work occasionally for them, not too often. And what do you think about your contemporaries? I'm very impressed with that guy. What's his name, Charles Burns? Oh, he's terrific. He's one of my favorites.

I love Dan Close. Close is great, yeah. Chris Ware. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I love his stuff. And Bag, are you friends with Peter? Yeah, old friends with Peter Bag. Yeah, he's a nice guy.

He is, he's a terrific guy. I liked his stuff, too. I think Mimi Pond's work is terrific. She has a new graphic novel out and uh yeah there's a lot of great stuff there's some stuff that's not so great but i don't pay attention to so much of it you got to pick and choose but fan of graphics i think publishes the best stuff yeah maybe i'm biased but that's my feeling you know when they put it out it's like there's usually something to it they're like good curators in a way yeah the old stuff they bring

back the old stuff and then introduce like the best of the new stuff i think and now in terms of entertainment i mean you know from do you do you still watch the three stooges occasionally i still appreciate them mostly on youtube i'll put it on but you know like people think i'm obsessed with ed wood and this stuff and that but i'm more content with just to be with my wife and our beagle darla yeah we adopted a month ago from from the local shelter she was unadoptable but we adopted her but occasionally you poke around you like you did yeah I still mostly on YouTube and stuff or on TV it still gets me I still like you know I'll have to watch it over and over like just the last week yeah I watched Moe Howard like slapping Larry in the head he was aiming for

shemp but he slapped Larry first I died laughter, and then I just watched it compulsively over like 10 times. Just like, it's like poetry. It's like ballet to me. I mean, ballet puts me to sleep, but I can watch that, you know, just like over and over. I watched the two versions of,

what is it, Enzole I Turned? Oh, with Sidney Fields? Yeah, and then I watched Alvin Costello do it, too. Yeah, yeah, beautiful, beautiful stuff. Well, then you have Joe Besser as Stinky. There's just nothing, you know, it's just sublime. And Joe Besser was not stuff. Well, then you have Joe Besser as Stinky. There's just nothing, you know, it's just sublime.

And Joe Besser was not a great stooge, but he was a great Stinky. It's like, you know, like I said about Curly, he's like from another world. Yeah. Who comes up with stuff like that? Yeah, it was.

His whole, the way he, his energy was bizarre. You're right. And it's like, we watch Abbott and Costello shows occasionally. We have them on DVD. But we said,

oh, I hope this is a Stinky. You know that feeling. You don't know them all by now? I do, but that's the stuff I can watch over and over. I never get sick of it. And what do you enjoy in current culture that is entertaining? Oh, current? I don't know.

I really do turn towards the past. Yeah. I like Downton Abbey. Yeah? I do. I have to past. Yeah. I like Downton Abbey. Yeah? I do. I have to admit. Yeah. I do.

That's like the opposite of what you're talking about. Whatever you don't expect. Yeah. But I really go back to the past. We watch TCM. We watch old movies, basically. That's it. Yeah.

Old TV shows. Shout Factory, I do work for them. I did their Marx Brothers DVD. They're old Marx Brothers when they got old. Oh, they put that out? Yeah. Marx Brothers on TV they did from the 50s and 60s. I got to look at their catalog.

They send me stuff occasionally. They send me a Richard Pryor box. I think they did the Bob Newhart. They did the Mel Brooks box. Yeah. Oh, that's right. That's right. They just came out.

Yeah, they came out with a complete Bilko. Yeah. Oh, they did? Yeah. Phil Silvers. Are you on the advisory board there? No, but they hire me to do covers. I did the Ernie Kovacs cover for them. Yeah. Oh, they did? Yeah. Phil Silvers. Are you on the advisory board there? No, but they hire me to do covers. I did the Ernie Kovacs cover for them.

Yeah. For the box collection. The recent Marx Brothers on TV collection. And also when they re-released Melbrook, the producers. I did the cover for that last year. Now, do you think that because, like, it's great that they're, what is the market for that stuff? Do you have any idea?

I mean, do you feel like that culturally we've lost something by losing the context of these guys? I think there's a very limited market. And I think they know that too. But they put out stuff that they know is going to sell millions of copies. But then they're also compulsive about this stuff. And they'll put out something like Ernie Kovacs or Old Marx Brothers. And even if it sells, it doesn't matter. I don't think that's the way I feel.

I never say seek set out and say, what's going to really do well? Like, you know, I would never have done books on old Jewish comedians. Right. If I was thinking like, what's going to really sell this time? Sure. Or even old comic book artists, you know, from the past. Well, I love it. Never think along those lines.

And, you know, maybe that's maybe that's not so smart. But, you know, that's the only way I can it. Never think along those lines. And, you know, maybe that's not so smart, but, you know, that's the only way I can operate. But are you a person that thinks that, you know, something is, you know, that things aren't as good as they used to be or we've lost something? No, I don't really buy into that. Yeah. No, it's like I think things are fine now, you know. I don't buy it. I don't think that.

I think they were great then and I think they're great now. Yeah. I have no complaints, you no complaints I'm enjoying things now no I don't look back and like oh if only you know there were horrible things

where are the new three stooges there were horrible things that happened back then who wants to go back to that time yeah yeah look what was happening down south and what not sure sure

or to women or you know not a great time but you know maybe the comedy but they were originals they were the guys who invented that stuff that's right so now you get guys who are kind of like doing it

like you know dumb and dumber yeah sure part three is you know the kind of like did you watch his three stooges movie uh the the fairly three stooges movie i watched i think i watched it only because my my pal craig bierko is in it yeah that's the only reason i watch it uh i thought the guy the guy who did mo was good right and that it. I didn't think much of it. I watched the one, remember the one from TV from a few years ago? A TV version. Again, I think the guy who did Moe was good in that one too. Moe's the one to get.

Yeah, two guys they got Moe, but the rest of the guys not so great. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's hard to do those. But I love watching those, like, you know, the Bud and Lou movie with Buddy Hackett and Harvey Korman. It's fascinating how wrong they get it and how miscast those guys were. I didn't see that one. If you're watching, just check that one.

I don't know if it's available. It's got to be. And then the W.C. Fields and Me with Rod Steiger. It's just so awful. Yeah. And Valerie Perrine, who I think gets naked in that. Yeah. I think it was in her contract back then.

She had to be naked in any movie. I think if she was in Mary Poppins, she would have it. She would be naked. She was naked in Lenny, too. Exactly. Even though there was no reason for her to be naked in any movie. I think if she was in Mary Poppins, she would have it. She would be naked. She was naked in Lenny, too. Exactly. Even though there was no reason for her to be naked. My dad wrote Steam Bath, and that was on PBS in the early 70s with Bill Bixby. Yeah.

And Valerie Perrine is naked in that, so no. I brought that up with Gilbert Gottfried recently. Yeah. You know, Steam Bath. He goes, oh, that's the one with Valerie Perrine. I said, I knew that was all you're going to remember from that. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

All right, man. Well, it was great talking to you. Great talking to you, Mark. And I like all the books. Oh, I knew that was all you're going to remember from that. All right, man. Well, it was great talking to you. Great talking to you, Mark. And I like all the books. I appreciate it. Love that guy, man. His brain is on fire. And you should definitely check out the books.

You should definitely check out the books. If you're a comic book person, by all means, Heroes of the Comics is all Drew. He did the text as well. Great. Go to WTFpod.com. Check those tour dates. DC is coming up first. The first leg of the tour is coming up fast.

DC on the 9th. Philly on the 10th. Both those shows are sold out. Boston at the Wilbur on the 11th, I believe. I think there might be some tickets for the second show in Boston. Definitely tickets for DC. That's a big-ass room. But go to

WTFpod.com slash calendar and get the links to all the cities. Wherever you are. Check it out. Get some JustCoffee.coop over there. Get the WTF blend. I get a little on the back end. Thank you. Boomer lives! Boomer lives! We deliver those. Goal tenders, no. But chicken tenders, yes. Because those are groceries, and we deliver those too.

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