WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 591 - Amber Tamblyn / Keith Richards

Episode Date: April 5, 2015

Amber Tamblyn's life as a child actor was in her mind when she wrote Dark Sparkler, a collection of poems about departed Hollywood starlets. Marc talks with Amber about her obsession with the book's subjects, her show business upbringing, her acting career and her husband, David Cross. Plus, Marc gets a phone call from one of his heroes, Keith Richards, as The Rolling Stones launch their new tour. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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I am Mark Maron. This is WTF. It's my show. It's the podcast. It's where it's happening. Big show today. Oh my God. All right. So last week, I talked to Mick Jagger, and it about blew my brain open.

Today, I get on the phone with Keith Richards. Look, I love Mick Jagger. I love the Rolling Stones, but Keith Richards is my guy. You know what I'm saying? And I talked to Dean about that. I pulled Dean back into it, pulled him over here. I felt like since I talked to Mick that I could handle Keith, and I think I did handle it for about nine minutes.

And then it was sort of like, I gotta go. I gotta go. I can't take it anymore. Perhaps if I sit down with Keith in the room here or in a room at his house for an hour or so, it would be fine. But just on the phone, I was like, there's so much. I don't, I'm experiencing feelings. My head's about to explode and I'm hitting a wall. But you can't tell. You can't tell. I tried to be cool, you know, and I told him where I was at and I asked him where he was at and it was good. So that's look forward to that.

Amber Tamblyn is also on the show. She's got a book coming out. She's an actress, as you may know. Also, she's the wife of the wonderful David Cross. But she's got this beautiful and dark book of poetry coming out, Dark Sparkler. That comes out tomorrow. I talked to her. Dark Sparkler. That comes out tomorrow. I talked to her. Before I forget, the Marination Tour starts officially on April 9th at the Warner Theater in Washington, D.C. There's still a few

tickets for that left. The Trocadero in Philadelphia. Both shows are sold out. The Wilbur in Boston, Massachusetts might be tickets for that second show on April 11th. In Madison, Wisconsin, tickets available April 16th at the Barrymore Theater. April 11th in madison wisconsin tickets available april 16th at the barrymore theater april 17th in pittsburgh at the carnegie of homestead music hall i believe you can get tickets april 18th at the royal oak music theater in royal oak michigan yes you can get tickets uh sunday april 19th at the bluma appell in toronto ontario early show sold out. Late show might be tickets. Not sure. Paramount in Austin on April 23rd.

Think you can still get tickets. Fitzgerald's April 25th in Houston. Sold out. April 28th, Southside Music Hall, Dallas. You can get tickets. Friday, May 8th, Neptune in Seattle. Early show sold out. Late show might be tickets.

The Vogue, Vancouver. go get your tickets, please. That's May 9th. May 10th, Davies Symphony Hall in San Francisco. Please, Bay Area, go get your tickets. It's a big place. I sold a lot of tickets, but it's a big-ass place. Thursday, May 14th, the Orange Peel in Asheville, North Carolina. Early show sold out. Late show, go get Peel in Asheville North Carolina early show sold out late show

go get your tickets Asheville May 15th Charleston Music Hall Charleston South Carolina go get them few tickets left Saturday May 16th Variety Playhouse Atlanta few tickets left get them Sunday May 17th Joy Theatre

New Orleans Louisiana go get those tickets alright so that's the layout Sunday, May 17th, Joy Theater, New Orleans, Louisiana. Go get those tickets. All right? So that's the layout right now. All right? I just want you to know that. I'm not pushing too hard, am I?

Okay. Good. You know, a lot of times people ask me after the Louis episode. All right? So that episode, my episode with Louis CK that I did a few years back was voted the best podcast ever in the history of podcasts by Slate. So, you know, every once in a while, you know, people come out to me and go, what's going on with you and Louis? You all right? You and Louis all right? And as you know, Louis has had me on his show the last two seasons for an episode, so that would indicate that we're all right, but then like a weird thing happened on stage

the other night. I was at the comedy store, and I was doing well. I had a good week last week. I was feeling confident, feeling excited. My comedy was going well. I had the right headspace. I can get into it most of the time, but sometimes it's fleeting. But for some reason, I was having a very good week. And I was on stage in the original room at the comedy store. Must've been Wednesday night, maybe. I think it was Wednesday. And I'm like, the way the comedy store works

is you go on and then you bring up the next guy. And sometimes it's the guy on the list, but sometimes that guy might not be here. So generally you ask Jeff, the piano guy, you know, who's up next. So I was about done, had a couple more minutes. And I said, Jeff, who's up next? And usually he'll just tell you, but this time he walks over with a piece of paper, hands it to me as a special guest. I look at the piece of paper is Louis CK. So in that moment, I say, oh yeah, this guy, I know this guy. I think I'm going to, you know, I think I'm going to do a few more minutes. I'm going to stretch it out a little

bit. I'm going to work on some new bits right now. I was just being funny, being a dick. Obviously, I was kidding. But what was struck me was there was another time in my career where if any of those guys would come in the room like back when i was starting out in new york and i was finally getting spots at the comedy cellar if david tell or louis uh would come into the room i would tell them to get out i would it would fuck my setup because in my mind i'm not doing it for the comics i'm trying to figure out how to perform for regular people so if i saw dave come in i'd be like get out. I don't want to deal with the pressure. Or if I saw Louie come in, I'd be like,

just let me do this by myself, please. But it was an amazing sign of growth and friendship for me that I really wasn't threatened or intimidated or felt judged or nervous. I did a couple more minutes. I brought Louie up and he told this story about me that I had forgotten about which is always nice to hear a story about you he said he loved me and that we were buddies and it was very nice but he told this story that I'd completely forgotten about

uh and I don't I don't know how he I must have told him or maybe he was he was over the morning that I you know that he came by the day it happened. But I used to live in New York City. I used to live on 2nd Street between A and B in 1989. So the Giuliani reign of control and police state had not occurred yet. And my street was a heroin heroin street and there was a heroin doorway literally right next to my apartment there was this little store I think it was a bookstore next to it was a bodega type store but they were selling heroin out of there and there'd be point guys on either side of the street to manage the cops and have little calls and whistles to let the junkies know when to scatter and when the dealers know when to

scatter i ultimately ended up buying heroin in that doorway after a year and a half sobriety and then finally going uh i gotta see what that's like then it was a quite an ordeal you got to go through the main guy two guys at the door and then there's another guy inside and then a basket comes down you put money in it the basket goes up it was quite an ordeal glad that didn't stick so well anyway so in front of this fake store this front this random bookstore slash bodega was a parking spot that you pretty much knew not to park in the guys would run their little honda bikes that they had those little Japanese motorcycles. Some of the guys involved be screaming up and down the streets at all hours. But, you know, you just didn't park there.

It was a known thing. Well, one day, you know, I was driving around looking for a parking space. I had a car. You know, some of us held on to that dream in New York for a while. But I also had to go up north to work. I was not getting any work in New York. I was just doing sets at the Comedy Cellar and maybe I don't even know if I was at that point but I have to drive up to Boston in the New England area to get paid work every weekend

so I had this little VW Golf and one night I was just driving around and around and could not find a parking space and I just said fuck it I'm parking in the drug space what could happen I'll get it in the morning so I parked there and I get up the next day and I go out and my tires are flat and there's dudes standing around the dudes that work at the drug space the drug doorway dudes are just hanging around and I come out and i look at my car and it goes hey your car man i'm like yeah and they're like gee man sad what happened man i don't know what happened huh someone's fucked up right and it was one of those things where i knew they did it but i had to sit there and go yeah it's it's pretty shitty that someone flattened my tires and they're like yeah

maybe you shouldn't have parked there right and i'm like yeah well you know i just live right here i know so you should know you shouldn't park there i wonder who did this and i'm like okay all right i i get it i get it it's like straw dogs you know the movie and i'm like oh so do you know where i can get some tires i gotta get some tires on this thing so i can work like yeah there's a guy around the corner and then i don't know why i did this but i said we keep an eye in the car i'm gonna go around the corner so i run around the corner of this tire joint to get a few spares see if i could get them then i come back around and two of the dudes that were out in front of the place are now in my car going through it going through my glove compartment and i'm like hey i'm right here could we get out of my car and like oh sorry man we're

just keeping an eye on it for you it was just one of the most humiliating horrible things uh you know that ever happened to me that didn't you know that didn't hurt me dramatically but it was just what a horrible feeling and i changed the tires but i'll tell you the moral of that story don't park in the drug space i did not do that again i learned my lesson so louis did a good spy did some new stuff and afterwards we uh talked and hugged and reconnected and he was leaving town a couple days and i heard from him uh recently it was funny because i heard from i guess he was on his way back to new york he was on the plane and he took a picture of the united entertainment options uh and uh there was

a louis and then there was something else then marin like right next to each other just texted the screen with both of us on it. And he said, life is fucking bizarre. And I said, ha, is that United? He goes, yep. And I said, wild. That's actually the only place people can see my show. And he went, ha.

But speaking of my show, let's talk honestly for a minute because I'm going to pitch this again as well. My show, Marin, the third season, premieres on IFC on May 14th. Now, I know a lot of you watch it on Netflix a year or so later. I know some of you watch it. You buy it on iTunes. I know there's a couple of other ways

to watch it other than IFC, but I would urge you, and I'm not this guy, but I'm going to be this guy. Be nice if you don't have IFC. Maybe pick urge you and I'm not this guy but I'm going to be this guy be nice if you don't have IFC maybe pick it up for a couple months during the running of my show because it would be nice to get some numbers there you know I'm glad that everybody watches my show however you're going to watch it that's fine but if you watch it on IFC then ratings happen and that determines whether

or not we do more or or or whether or not we're a success on that network. Look, I know that's old-timey, but if you can find it in your heart to pick up IFC for May, June, and July, that would be helpful to me, and you can watch my show as it happens in real time. And they will be running marathons maranathons however you want to say it you know leading up to the premiere of the third season of the first two seasons all right so you've been you've been asked politely okay all right i'm about to share my interaction with dean previous to the keith richards call

and my conversation with really I would say the biggest hero I've had in my life since I can remember having heroes Keith Richards you can listen to me try to keep my cool and talk about guitars with with fucking Keith Richards and he sounds great he sounds great so as you know the zip code tour tickets go on sale next monday april 13th for the stones but you can get them this wednesday if you're an american express card member all right so here we go let's let's get into the lead up and the phone call with my hero keith richards Keith Richards. I'm so glad I'm here, dude.

Oh, dude, the response. Dude, the phone's going to ring. Keith Richards is going to be on the phone. What time? Oh, man, in a couple minutes. Whoa. Okay, okay. Oh, shit. Okay, okay, shit.

Okay, okay. Hello? Hello, Mark. Keith Richards. Yeah, how are you? I'm great, man. How are you? I can't believe you're calling.

Well, that's the job, man. I talked to Mick last week, and he asked me if I was going to talk to you, and I said I was. Yeah. Yeah, and we had a nice conversation. How are you guys getting along? All right? Yeah, man. I'm fine. I'm just, you know, I'm sort of just preparing for the road, you know?

And what are you guys doing? You rehearsing, like, every day or what? A couple days a week? Well, not at the moment, but we will be within a couple of weeks. I'm not sure where yet, but I'm getting ready for it. Oh, great. Where are you at now? I'm up in Connecticut right now.

So on an average day, do you sit around and play for a little while? Yeah, every day a little bit. It depends when the mood grabs me. Sometimes the piano, sometimes the guitar. And what are you playing? That big, like one of those Gibson, the Hummingbird, the big Gibsons? No, up at home, no.

I got a couple of little Martin and a little Angel guitar. Oh, that's sweet. They're just nicer around the house. Yeah, what's sweet. Yeah, they're just nicer around the house, you know. Yeah, what's your main guitar when you're going out now? Well, I play the usual lineup, man. You know, my Telecasters and a couple of Gibsons. Pretty much the same thing ever since. I can't remember when I didn't have them you know

do you still play with that do you still take that 52 telly out that old one yeah sure man he's my mainstay yeah that's awesome man so so this tour you're going to do a few dates and they're all going to be big but that sticky fingers reissue that's pretty exciting you excited about that yeah yeah and that's why it's called Zip Code, you know, the tour. Because the famous zip. Yeah, it's interesting. It's coming out. I'm not sure how, you know, maybe we'll even try and play the whole damn thing on stage, you know.

Yeah! I asked Mick about that because I heard a rumor that you guys were going to do that and he was like, I don't know if it's going to work out. No, we don't know. It's an idea.

We won't know until we get into rehearsals. Well, what's the fear, do you think? You just don't know which songs you're going to click with again? What determines that? No, you've got to wait until you're actually all together and playing, you know, before you can really make decisions like that, you've got to wait until you're actually all together and playing

before you can really make decisions like that. So we'll give everything a bash. Yeah. I'm learning Moonlight Mile again right now. That's going to be amazing. How about Sister Morphine? You on top of that? Yeah.

That's the one I've got down, I think. Okay. Yeah. And me and my friend Dean Delray are sitting here, and we're listening to Talk is Cheap. How come you never, like, do you ever think about playing any of those tunes? Well, you know, with the Stones, no. I mean, it's a separate thing, you know.

Yeah, that's interesting, you know. Talk is Cheap, and I love the winos, man. Yeah, it's a great record, man. It's a great record. Now, when you guys go out, what's your regimen? I mean, are you going to go on a bus? Do you guys still do a bus or no? No, we have a plane.

Yeah, yeah. Fuck the bus, right? Yeah, and it's quicker. Actually, sometimes we do take a bus just for the fun of it. You know, it depends on the ride, you know, what the distance is. Sure, man. Oh, let's take all afternoon and ride it by bus through the country, you know. Sure, man.

Why not? Why not? It's nice to see the country when you're not being chased. So, how's Charlie doing? You guys all right? Yeah, Charlie's great, man. I spoke to him the other day, and I said, what are you doing? He says, I'm packing.

And Ronnie's okay? Yeah, Ronnie's in fine shape, man. I asked Mick, because I always wonder, because I actually haven't seen you guys live since 1981 in the Madison Square Garden. Oh, wow, you've been there. But I was wondering, when you were up on stage, did you ever catch yourself looking over your shoulder

to see if Bill's there? Do you miss Bill? Yeah, well, I miss him in a way, you know, as a mate. But with Daryl Jones, man, it's, well, you know. He's great. You know, I'm enjoying so much playing with him. And as Daryl says, even though he's the new boy, he's been with us 20 years. Yeah, that's wild, man.

Yeah, man. Now, do you actually hang out with Paul McCartney sometimes? Yeah, that's wild, man. Yeah, man. Now, do you actually hang out with Paul McCartney sometimes? Yeah, sometimes. Just a little here and there. Yeah. Did you ever think about, did it ever come up where you thought maybe we could jam together with Paul McCartney? Yeah, that often comes up, but we've never got around to it yet. And how about Chuck Berry, man?

Are you still in touch? We've never got around to it yet. And how about Chuck Berry, man? Are you still in touch? I haven't seen Chuck for a while, although I sent him a note a couple of weeks ago. But, yeah, as far as I know, he's all right. And are you thinking about having some guest players on the tour?

Have you got anybody in mind? Yeah, I guess I'm... I think it's likely. I haven't thought about it. I thought maybe Mick might have mentioned more of that, because I don't really get into that until I'm there. What are your favorite songs to play? How does it feel to play Moonlight Mile again? Oh, that'll be fun.

I mean, it's been a while. But favorite, I could play Jumpin' Jack Flash all night. Yeah. And do you ever listen to, you know, I was asking Mick about it, you know, because I've been following you guys a long time, and I bought my first Telecaster because of you, and I started smoking cigarettes because of you. You changed my life, man.

Oh, man. I started drinking Jack Daniels because of you. And then after I did all that, Keith, I learned how to play guitar. I started with the other stuff. Yeah, yeah, I get you. There's one way of approaching it. So, but like, how far back do you go when you, what kind of records do you listen to every once in a while?

You go back to the blues? Oh, yeah, quite often. Yeah, I just always, you know who are you twice a week oh really dose of the blues put the put the channel radio channel the blues channel or start to go through the old uh you know pile of records and stuff and uh yeah always listen robert johnson muddy waters i listen to all those cats all the time. So do you ever think about putting out a straight-up blues record? I know all the Stones records are blues records on some level. Yeah.

Do you ever think about just stripping it down? I don't know. It's an idea that's always been lurking in the background with the Stones. I don't know if anyone has got the balls for it. What could they be afraid of, Keith? What do you think? I know, that's what I think. But I mean, hey,

maybe it's just a matter of time. You know, it might be the right time to do it next time we get in the studio. Yeah, why the hell not? Yeah. So now, what are you doing to prepare? Are you just rehearsing? You're not doing push-ups now, what are you doing to prepare? Are you just rehearsing? You're not doing push-ups or anything, are you?

No, I wait. It's enough to get on the stage. That's enough exercise, man. No, I don't do anything particular. But, you know, I'm in pretty good shape, you know. You sound great, man. You sound great. You too, brother.

What is that tuning? You're still playing mostly five strings, right? Well, depending on the song. I mean, I guess it's about 50 You too, brother. What is that tuning? You're still playing mostly five strings, right? Well, depending on the song. I mean, I guess it's about 50-50, really, when it comes down to it. And what's your favorite Stones record, Keith? Oh, the rough ones that pull on me, man. I'm sorry, but when you look back at it. I don't know.

Give Me Shelter, I love. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But then, you know, Midnight Rambler. The best. I could go on, man, but, you know, I thought, you know, I thought give me Shelter for this time. Oh, man. Well, you know, Keith, I don't even know what to say.

This conversation might have changed my life. Not again, baby. We're all looking forward to the tour. It was great talking to you, man. Okay, you too, man. Take it easy. Bye-bye. See ya.

Whoa, man. What the hell just happened? Dude, that was next level. Dude. Wow. What the hell just happened? And like, I probably could have talked to him longer. I know.

I know. I can't believe you let him go. I was like, no, no, keep it going. I was like, keep it going. No, man. That was enough, right? Yeah, that was awesome, dude. Holy fuck.

So I think that went pretty well. And I hope I can have a longer conversation with him at another time that's all i could say but it was funny and i i i almost i almost exploded i almost exploded i hope you enjoyed that i don't know if a lot of you people know this but i was a poet i uh did some very important poetry work pow i just shit my pants just coffee.coop available at wtfpod.com a classic ad that uh that i decided to impulsively do at that at that moment classic wtf can i say that yeah i was a poet i i did uh i i thought that i was going to write poetry not for a living necessarily but but it's something that seemed to be the clearest way to the truth for me at a time.

Back when I was in high school and college, I edited the undergraduate literary journal one year. I was published in it twice. I enjoyed writing poetry. I'll still do it occasionally. I enjoy reading poetry poetry i don't always know what poetry to read and i've talked about poetry on this show before and the woman uh who works i think she's an editor of her poetry uh the journal sent me a bunch with uh with uh actually uh post-its on the pages of the guy she thought i would like and i did like it i like reading poetry so when amber tamblyn reached out to me and and said she's to write a book of poetry i was like yeah well not said she was going to write it she'd written it and i was like sure let's talk about poetry so so i i'm i'm excited to uh to share this with you it's me and amber tamblyn the actress and poet talking about her new book dark sparkler which comes out tomorrow and for those of you who live in the area here she'll be at the Hollywood Forever Cemetery

on April 24th for a book release event with Yola Tango. That band. Yeah. So that should be cool. So here now is me. Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series,

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A city that's innovative, inclusive and creative. And they're helping put Calgary and our innovation ecosystem on the map as a place where people come to solve some of the world's greatest challenges. Calgary's on the right path forward. Take a closer look at Calgary economic development.com. And Amber. Hi, Amber. hi amber hi mark it's nice to see you again it's nice to see i've seen you maybe three or four times yes never had a conversation with you no hugged yes acted like you know hi it's my my friend's girlfriend no his wife yes you're like oh you're that guy. Yes. Well, this is it. Yes. It's happening now.

Yes. You ready? Yes. We've been out here for two days in Los Angeles, where your parents are. Correct. And your childhood home? Yeah, that's right. Born and raised in Venice.

Still the same place down there that they're living in? Still the same apartment, yeah. Same place. They've been there for 33 years, 35 years, I think. So it's like well-worn old furniture, art and books? Very much so, yeah.

What kind of name is Tamlin? It's Welsh. Huh. And what, so is that what your background is? No, mostly Scottish. Scottish. Very Scottish.

You can see that as soon as I start drinking bourbon. Oh, yeah? What happens? I just get very mean. Are you incomprehensible in terms of how you speak? No. I just get flirty and mean. Nice.

It's the worst combination. I think maybe I saw you once like that. Yeah, and I was like, nah, I'm nervous. So they're both still down there? Yeah, they're still there. Married? Yeah, still married, yeah. Really?

Yeah. After all the 60s. Yeah. Well, you know, and what came out of that was actually my dad, they're both on their third marriage. So they were both married twice before they met. And in between or during one of those two marriages for my dad, he actually had a daughter that he never knew about that came knocking on the door one day when she was 17.

I was, I think, like seven years old. Her name's China. She's my sister. Really? But he never knew about her. And the reason is because her mother really didn't want to tell her daughter because her father was a womanizer at that time. Which was your dad. Yeah.

And, you know, at that time in the 60s, it was all free love and people who were married also had mistresses. It just was a, you know. And your dad was like right in the middle of it, right? He was part. Let's talk about him for a minute because he was part of the studio system. Yes, very much so. And then he just went rogue like the entire industry, right?

Yeah, he did. He was under contract at MGM, and he'd been acting since he was nine years old, and went to school on the MGM lot with Elizabeth Taylor, and he had an incredible life. And then the 60s happened, and he met Dennis Hopper and Neil Young and you know they all moved up into Topanga Canyon and who's part of that crew oh yeah big time those are my uh those are my goddads those dummies Neil Young and one of them's dead he's still dumb who which one Dennis oh Dennis both of those guys are your goddads? Yeah. So were they part of your life, your whole life? Dennis much more when I was really young. Yeah.

Neil and Dean Stockwell really were more around a lot growing up. And Neil's daughter is one of my very close friends. We're both named Amber Rose. And your dad remains friends with him? Yes. Yeah. Well, that's nice. Yeah. He seems like a pretty earnest Yeah. Well, that's nice.

Yeah. He seems like a pretty earnest, authentic guy, that Neil Young fella. So does Stockwell, actually. Yeah. They're complicated dudes. Yeah. That's what makes them interesting. So, and you started acting when you were a kid.

Yeah. 11. On a soap. Yes. And that was shot here? Yeah. Was it like the only soap shot here? No, there was a- What was it?

Which one? General Hospital. Ah. There was a couple of them, I think. I honestly don't know. That's one of those things, too, where I think people assume because you were on a soap opera that you know other people on soap operas. Yeah.

So I'll always have someone come up to me and say do you know um uh you know uh gold weathersmith from one life to live i'm like who the fuck is that awesome name i was 11 yeah like no i don't i don't know i'm not buddies with everybody else from soaps was it but when you like because like i read a good portion of the book and i read the the back part which seems more autobiographical the epilogue and like i've i've read some poetry i've written some poetry in my life i like it it's some of it was a little painful and all of it is a little uh dark i know that the that there's light within it but the meditation on the death of actresses, particularly young actresses, over the course of the history of show business.

You all right? You're actually talking to a ghost right now. Are you okay? I'm dead inside. Yeah, I'm good. This book was what got me there. You know, that's the exorcism right there. Dark Sparkler.

Yes. But what, like, having been acting since you're 11 and having success at it throughout and doing big and small parts in television and movies and having being brought up in it. Even some of the emails you shared at the back of the book with your father. What was it that created the meltdown? Was it that created the meltdown? Well, it's interesting because I thought that I was writing a book about the lives and deaths of child star actresses and actresses that had sort of succumbed to death in one way or another, whether it was suicide or they had been murdered or whatever, before the age of 40. And that's what it originally started out as. And just in the research of it and the research of these women over time, the book took six years to write. And so about three years in after studying them, I really started to unravel. And I was sort of thinking that I was studying them from a distance. Right. And it really wasn't at all. I was, in a way, studying myself because I was studying the interior lives of these women.

Yeah. And learning so much about them and seeing a lot of similarities and also this sense of when are you allowed to ask yourself the question? If you've been acting since you were that young, when are you allowed to ask yourself the question whether that's actually what you really want to do or not?

And I had never asked myself that question until I started writing this book. And that's at how old are you? 31. Well, that's good. It didn't happen when you were 40. Maybe you're going to avoid the fate. Right. I do feel like the book in its study and in its journey actually was a death for me which is what i had to embrace i think in western culture there's so much um emphasis on death is a very negative thing and it's a very literal thing and that if you contemplate at the very least it's a final thing yes in a way yeah but also that we're not supposed to think about it talk about it yeah say you want it yeah say you're interested in it right that it means something to you and

for me this was this writing of this book was the shedding of of a skin and was the death of me as a child actress you know which is something that had been really hard in my adult life was separating myself from that and seeing myself as an actual um adult and treating myself that way so well show business like the one thing that kind of runs through the book. And also, I imagine through your life and I think probably through your father's life, especially somebody who is coddled by the studio system. Yeah. Is that there is this idea of validation.

There is this parental sort of almost it's not even God like, but it's sort of like, do I look pretty? Am I am I doing good? Like there's this weird, almost childlike. It's sort of like do i look pretty am i am i doing good like there's this weird almost childlike it's infantilizing yeah it's very much us it's very much as a culture projecting onto people i mean that's what celebrity celebrityism is and that's also what these people have and i have experienced to a certain extent as well uh is just the sense that you are a you are projected upon and you also for a living project so you that is just the sense that you are projected upon

and you also for a living project. So that's what you do, is you are not yourself for a living. And then in your personal life, you are also not allowed to be yourself because everybody else is going to look at you and tell you and treat you. They have their own relationship with you

based on their idea. Correct. But just the fact that so much of being an actor is about validation, that it so much of being an actor uh is about validation that like it always sort of strikes me even like i used to do a joke where i used to say it took me years to learn that hollywood it wasn't my parents that like you're sort of like you kind of like that well it's it's weird though because like when you call your manager you call your agent or you're trying to go out on things, the conversation is like, am I good?

Was I good enough? Am I funny? Do you love me? Oh, yeah. And I think the entire culture is infantilized on some level. But to be an actress and to be in that rare air of being insulated and protected like that, there's the outside and the inside of the individual and what people bring to it. But there's also this weird emotional relationship with the fucking business and expectations like because it seems to me a lot of the the sad end to a lot of these people psychologically is just you know

the nature of being abandoned you know by themselves and by the business in a way really it's the abandonment of the self that's you're touching on exactly what was what i learned out of all of it which was just this idea of you know and even in the writing of the book as i was writing about dead actresses and i was drinking a ton and i was taking on purpose on purpose and taking as many pills or like things that i thought was to get me closer to them and understand what it was. Method writing? Yeah. I thought that that was a great choice. And in trying to say, what does it feel like to be that numb? What did it feel like for them?

Which didn't help me write shit. It didn't help at all. It just made me out of my mind. It doesn't generally help. No, it doesn't. It was not very Charles Bukowski about it. You've got to live it. It did not work for me. It might've worked for that guy, but I was like.

I think that was his first love. Yes. The life has got to be the first love if you're going to live that life. Yeah. You can't just kind of dabble in it. Yeah, exactly. You should have become a real drug addict. Yeah.

But I kept telling myself, I kept saying, why is this happening to me? Why is all of this stuff happening to me? Why is, you know, why can't I, why don't I want it? Why am I not killing in my auditions anymore? The way that when I was a kid, I just, I could kill. I could walk in a room and kill it. Why wasn't that happening? Why wasn't I getting, you know, the jobs that I wanted that I did go in and I thought I killed for? Why? Everything felt like it was happening to me and that I was not taking ownership for my own life because for so many years I had no identity in a certain sense. There was that had not been nurtured.

I didn't know how that was supposed to get nurtured. And this is from a chick with awesome parents who were still married and cool and whatever and had a great artistic upbringing. And even myself within myself in my mid 20s, I was thinking, who am I? I've already lived 10 lives, and I'm only like 25 years old. Right. And I want to quit, and I want to end. I would like to end. I would like to know what it feels like to cease.

Yeah. And that became a very attractive mantra to me. And I know that sounds like I'm saying I was suicidal or something, but that's not it. It was just the sense of stopping, of stopping after you've been going for so long. Right. And also with having a fragile sense of self, I've talked about that before about suicidal ruminations and I don't usually bring up my jokes but I think

maybe you would enjoy them I used to say that it's not that I don't want to kill myself I just find it relaxing to know that I can if I have to well that's a really beautiful way of looking at it it's a spiritual reprieve of a faithless person and a very self-centered person it's a spiritual reprieve of a faithless person yeah and a very self-centered

person yeah it's not so much like because real suicidal people they they kind of mean business yeah but those of us who are just you know it there it's there's a there's a there's a difference between i want to be done and like you know a deep sense of sadness for yourself. Yeah, very much so. So, well, Jesus Christ. Well, it was that idea, too, of why is everything happening to me and why are all these things going wrong? Why isn't it happening for me was the real question. Right, but the truth of the matter was

is that I needed to stop. That that's what the universe was telling me. I was telling myself, you aren't, nothing is happening for you here because this, this is dead to you. This acting, well,

not even acting, but the machine in which I was brought up in and the way in which I was brought up in, which was to kill in an audition room and was to have no opinion other than to like, know how to kill in an audition room. And that's it. That's all I knew how to do. And it was my way of saying, you will not survive this

because there's so much more I wanted to do. I wanted to direct. I wanted to write a book that was important, that showed what kind of writer I could be. I wanted these things. I just didn't know how to make them happen. And so instead it was just like, oh, just keep doing the same thing you're always doing,

which is don't try to go outside of the box. Don't try to be bigger or better or prove to yourself that you can do more. And ultimately that's exactly what I needed to do was to stop acting for a fucking minute. Just take a damn breather. Yeah. And that's when

everything started to change. Sure. When you sort of stop, you know, you take a breather and you stop and you realize you have to stop giving a shit

for whatever reason. Right. That's when everything starts to happen. Yeah. When you're like, fuck it. And you really believe it.

But like to separate from that idea of like, because it must have been that thing, it's a, like I know it from being a kind of mid-level celebrity myself. And I just achieved mid-levelness. So, you know, you rely on like you're constantly making those calls. Like, why am I going in on that?

Why am I not going in on that? Who's going in on that? Why is that? And when you hear yourself, I would imagine run that shit through your mind now in retrospect you're like what a fucking waste of life yeah what a waste of time yeah it's it's a sense of just hitting uh you know hitting a wall over and over again and um uh and that's very much what I was doing I was I was uh cutting off my nose to spite my face. I was telling myself, this is all I'll ever amount to because I don't have any control.

I can only do that. I can only make the phone call to my agent and put everything into their hands and go, why isn't this working out? Why isn't this happening? And then you start to think that they're your friends or something. Yeah. Well, I mean, in the book, you know, I was with an agency, a huge agency for 15 years. And I remember this was right around the time I took, like I said, the book took six years to write.

And I took a year off in there. And it was right around this time. It was also when David and I got married. It was a really weird fucking year. It was an awful, awful, awful year. The year we got married. Yeah. That was the only good part of it.

Everything else was terrible. But I had like a parting with an agency that was terrible. Didn't care about the, you know, could care less about the movie that I had written that, you know, I had the rights for. that I had written that, you know, I had the rights for that I had good financing relationships and had people attached like Alfred Molina

and Janet McTeer. And there was like no sense that they cared. Did you make it? Yeah, I made it in December and it's fucking awesome. When's it coming out? Still editing it.

It's almost, we're almost done. Molina's in it? Yeah. And you directed it? And I directed it and I wrote it. Wow. But that didn't happen until I left that agency.

They're not going to do anything. They're not, but that's exactly right, where you start treating them like friends. And that's the wrong thing to do. But also when you're, I think, a kid actor, your sense of boundaries with adults is so blurred. And you also are constantly trying to get approval like did i do good in the scene did i i knew all my lines you know there's a real terrifying sense of uh boundaries with adults and so that's something i very much took into my adult life in my around that time which is how i could have stayed for so long with people that did not care right but also

your your dad was in it yeah like there was like there was sort of like a and it it broke his heart it really did i could see that just in in that email exchange which should be sort of an uplifting email exchange where he's basically like yeah you're great and you'll get maybe it'll be a comedy next time but it's horrible in a way do you know what i mean like because he knows it so intimately he knows the heartbreak he knows the disappointment yeah yeah he's been through it all before yet he's not able to tell you like get out jesus get the fuck out yeah did he ever say that uh no but you know he also uh for him it was really painful because he you know went back to topanga in the 60s, did all that.

And then he tried to come. When he had me and he married my mom, he tried to get into acting again in the 80s. And nobody knew who he was because he had been gone for 20 years, 15 years. This was before Twin Peaks? Way before Twin Peaks, yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, he had been gone for anywhere from 10 to 15. What was he doing?

He was in Topanga. He was doing art. He was part of the Seminole culture movement. And he's a beautiful collage artist. I mean, he's had work all over the world. And it's why I also dedicated the book to him because it's important that even my dad at 80 years old sees that that's not the only thing he is. Just because that's what he's most known for, acting. He's,

he's also been working on a biography for, you know, 10 years. And so I wrote, I dedicated to him as an author because that's what matters is that he also does not accept his own pigeonholing and knows that he is a value beyond, uh, beyond that part of his life. The acting. Yeah. It's so bizarre. It's so specific how it fucks with your head. Yeah. Like even in that piece about, like when you were a kid and you were at that party or something

and Leonardo DiCaprio was there. Oh, yeah. That's a true story. The night where that was your first kiss night. Yeah. But the detail that was interesting is that you were dressed like a chola because you sort of aspired to that.

Like there's this weird thing when you... Well, growing up in Venice, too. I mean, those are my only friends. Right. But that sense of wavering identity. Yeah. Oh, yeah. You know, and the fact that you got into acting so young and you were supposed to sort of become other people for a living,

but you never took the time or you never had the inner workings to be good with yourself. Childhood is also a real time of introspection. You know, it's really when you're supposed to be, when your inner life is finding itself and who you are, who you want to be is very much defined by the actions of your life and by the relationships you have with people. And I just didn't have normal versions of that whatsoever.

Mine were always trying to appease adults. And I had a job that none of my friends had that I had to be responsible for. I paid the bills. I mean, that was my life. And how out there were your folks? I mean, were you in Topanga? No, no, no, no. Topanga was a thing for my dad, like, in the 60s.

So your parents, so he's been married to your mom for a little longer than you've been alive. Yes. a little longer than you've been alive. Yes. They've, and they, yeah, they moved to Venice with, with actually with Dennis Hopper

and his, his then wife in the early 80s. Yeah. Like 80, 79, something like that. Yeah. Hopper,

like that must have been wild to have him around. Yeah. An old buddy of mine, I think married one of his daughters. I don't know which one or from which isn't there a couple of yeah he's yeah he's got he's got some he's got he's got some kids yeah and henry his son is a is a real sweetheart and i actually hadn't seen

i hadn't seen henry since um since dennis died and it was a very tough ending for him and i ran into henry just randomly i remember on um abbott kinney i hadn't seen him in maybe 10 years yeah and uh we just hugged each other and cried on the street i mean and i hadn't seen the kid in so long and i just it was really wild well there's a very like it's the type of childhood you guys had is so specific. Yeah. It's not like you can run into anybody like, God, when we were kids, we all did this because that crew of people that, you know, grew up with those parents who were out of their minds in the 60s and were actors and the way that all that changed and specifically show business. There's only like how many of them are you? Yeah.

It's a small crew. Really? Yeah, I would imagine. And I don't know, I actually don't know any other, I don't have friends that are, you know, like I know Rashida Jones, but I don't really know her that well. But I imagine she had some version of that.

Right. But like, we've never talked about that. I don't know. Right. There's no crossing over of. Yeah, it's like the Zappa kids. Yeah, right, right, right, right. These are worlds into themselves.

Quincy Jones, can you imagine that being your dad? I know. And then when you talk to these people, they're like, yeah, he's just my dad. I'm like, no, he can't. That can't be real. He's just like that guy. There's no way his dick made you. No way.

Well, it's just like you get these ideas because in the minds of civilians, you know, these people are sort of immortal. They're like they, you know, there's no way for me to even assess Neil Young as just a guy. Even though I interviewed tons of people here, I'm still sort of like. If he was sitting across from you, you just would be. Well, I'd be like, holy shit. But they all turn out to just be guys. Yeah. And these guys, people find the time to do the work,

and then they just eat and go to the bathroom like other people. Yeah. Wander around. Yeah. Thinking about things. That's what I was trying to say in my book. I get it. I get it.

Let me really drive it home for you, Mark, okay? Well, which one, like, out of all these, like, I had to look up some of them. Some of them are fake, too. Yeah, and this is... She must be thrilled about that. That's the number one question I get for interviews is that, is Mark is holding up my book to me,

and he's showing me the poem for... Each poem is titled after the actress, so this one's for Lindsay Lohan, and it's showing me the poem for each each poem is titled after the actress so this one's for Lindsay Lohan and it's just a blank page not very optimistic well so my question to you would be what does that mean to you you don't think it's very optimistic well you know like my I think I feel that like I don't like the sordid tabloidization of things that much. Like there's part of everybody that's sort of like, ooh. But like, you know, being a sober person myself, with somebody like her, there's just this part where you're like,

you know, you could, you don't have to go down like this. However it's going to go down. But they've been saying this for years about her. So there's no way it can end well. And it's probably not going to end well, but it could go on for longer than anyone anticipated. What were you like when you were 18 years old? Like, were you a nightmare?

No, I was very sensitive. I don't think I became a nightmare until about 21. Right. You know, I'd say that when your husband david cross never heard of him uh met me in college is he bald yes he well you know i think he's still got some on the sides but yeah but you know and in other places he's a hairy man it's a hairy guy well he's not really like he's not that hairy like not italian hairy but he's got that weird nipple hair right i don't think he has nipple hair oh okay maybe i'm thinking another guy that i knew back in the day that's also named

david cross with nipple hair no we'd go to the beach dave and i with a group of people i kind of remembered i thought i remembered that maybe it's a detail i wonder if if he laid on the beach and got sunburned and then i shaved his whole body if it would just he's got on his shoulders he doesn't he doesn't really i mean he's got some on his chest and his whole body if it would just... He's got it on his shoulders? He doesn't. He doesn't really. I mean, he's got some on his chest and his stomach. I think it's on his stomach. Right.

Yeah. Yeah. It's scattered. It's scattered. I remember Dave... Well, the point being, I met Dave when I was in college and he was in college.

I don't know how we just went from Lindsay Lohan to... We're getting there. ...my husband's chest hair. Well, it's a few easy steps. You're asking me how was I when i was 18 like and i was telling you that i didn't start losing control of my life until because we're talking about lindsey and i thought that's where you were going it is and i brought it up to say that uh what she what

she has gone through when she went through as a teenager is insanely normal there was nothing about the behavior that was different weird strange when strange. When I was her age, when I was 16, when I was 13, I crashed my parents' car. I got my nipples pierced when I was 16. I was a nightmare. I was a crazy kid, meaning that there was nothing that crazy about her other than she just was living the life of a real teenage girl very, very, very publicly. living the life of a real teenage girl very, very, very publicly. So my reasoning for putting that poem in there like that was to say, I'm not going to project on you what everybody else does,

and I'm going to let people project onto this page what they feel. It's really sort of a statement about that exactly, about how we sort of look at someone and go, here's your fate. You're going to be this. You're going to be that. You're going to end this way because she's the ultimate personification of that. Right. Right. But in the context of this book, it doesn't seem like it. Right.

But the book isn't just about deaths. It's also about glamorization and projection and how people are treated as objects. So in that vein, my statement to that was just like, I'm not going to write the poem for you where you die, but I am going to put your name in here because everybody else does. So I'm going to go down the same road,

but I'm just not going to say what your ending is going to be. I'm not going to do that to you. Whereas everyone else is like, she's probably going to die in a couple years let's be honest okay I get it but a outside of all those other themes I mean most of these it doesn't end well for anybody in here really does it it might end well for her no but I'm talking in general the tone of the book I mean you know the exploration was what happens to these women and what did you find ultimately like as you did all this research and some of the stuff at the end of the book. I mean, you know, the exploration was what happens to these women. And what did you find ultimately,

like as you did all this research and some of the stuff at the end of the book where you showed what you had to search and what the research was. Yeah. How were you not going

to become more depressed and horrified? I was depressed and horrified. And what was Dave doing during all this? Was he helping you out? Worrying about me.

You know, I even have a poem for him in there where he's and he did the wife poem yeah that's sweet yeah he says uh and he did say to me i remember when i was halfway through it researching dead actresses um and he said don't please don't get obsessed and i at that point i was far far into obsession land i mean there was just no turning back from and you couldn't define what the obsession was what was it exactly that was driving you what was the morbid fascination what were you did you think you were going to arrive at i i was in admiration of their deaths i was in admiration of the idea of non-existence, of stopping.

And I go back to that same theme. It was like, you know, and the idea of being immortalized in that way. Well, I didn't know so many of these. And that one, when I started looking people up, I think the first one I looked up was Judith. Judith Barsi. So sad. Yeah, it's brutal. It's horrendous. And I'm like, I don't know if I can do this whole book right sad. Yeah, it's brutal. It's horrendous.

And I'm like, I don't know if I can do this whole book right now. Yeah, it's tough. And some of these women lived longer and had longer careers than just childhood actresses.

Very true. And there's some of them, like Frances Farmer, she doesn't technically fall into the guidelines of what the book is, which is women around my age that died,

which is ultimately what the whole thing is. I wasn't going to write about anyone in their 40s or whatever that had lived, you know, that 30 in the 30s felt like those that was the group of women and 30 and below was the group that interested me because that's what I was closest to. So that's what I could relate to. Right. But Frances Farmer, you know, she died in her late 50s. But a lot of people said she was in and out of mental institutions for a very long time when she was younger and they're you know she's infamously someone who potentially was lobotomized so i had this crazy idea of what if what if i wrote a poem from the idea that francis farmer's been dead since she was 28 years old and now she's just a zombie and walking on a red

carpet with like her pieces of her body parts falling off and no one recognizes they're just like francis what are you wearing yeah and she's just you know there's like black worms coming out of her mouth and which is kind of you know sometimes i look at red carpets i look at these women yeah if you squint you can see the worms. Yeah, who are my peers? And it's like, you know, everyone's just trying to get back to their birth weight. You know, it's like, it's insane. Yeah. You can see right through them. Yeah, it's scary sometimes.

Yeah. It's a little disturbing. Yeah. Show business, man. Yeah. What the fuck? It's fucked up. It is, right?

Yep. Let's go through more of these. Jane Mansfield. Brittany Murphy, that was sad. Let's go through more of these. Jane Mansfield. Brittany Murphy, that was sad. Yeah, that was the first one that I wrote. Really? That's where it started? Yeah, that was the catalyst.

Did you know her? I didn't at all. This book was a complete accident. I wrote this piece for Brittany. She's the only one in the book who was a contemporary peer of mine, meaning I never knew her, but we always went on the same auditions. The only time I ever was in proximity of her proximity to her was when we both went in for an audition for 8 Mile and she ended up getting that movie. But I remember she came out of the audition room and I went in.

So we passed each other, never met her, but I thought she was incredibly talented. Never met her, but I thought she was incredibly talented. And the mystery surrounding her death that still remains really fascinated me. And it also fascinates me that people move to Los Angeles specifically with the idea that they want to become famous. Somehow. Somehow. But she was an example of somebody, if you read interviews with her, all that stuff, she knew since she was a little kid she wanted to be an actress.

That's what she wanted. Her mother moved her out to Los Angeles when she was young. She worked really hard. She got there. And then as most people do, you know, the fame goes away. That sort of blast of beginning fame when you first get it, it goes away. And then you're sort of stuck with whoever you are and what you've turned into during that time. And either you hate that, or you're okay with it, you know, but that takes a lot of work. So to me, I wrote this, I wrote that

piece, sort of, to say, you know, it was a it was a love letter, in a sense to say from one girl who was born and raised here, who has a totally me who has a totally different relationship with Los Angeles than most people do. I don't hate it here. I don't feel lonely here. I don't I don't get the sense of, you know, Hollywood is the only thing that matters about Los Angeles, which is I think creepiness. You don't feel I don't feel the creepiness as much to somebody who lost their life there. the creepiness as much to somebody who lost their life there. And then after the fact, I remember seeing her on the cover of People magazine in this long, beautiful silver dress, just gorgeous, just totally immortalized, like Brittany Murphy,

you know, the life of a star, lost so soon. And they always write that shit, right? Right. And nobody wanted to talk about the epidemic of drug use nobody wanted nobody wanted to write about or talk about all the different drugs of things or if they did it was always salacious uh nobody really wanted to address whatever that fucking relationship she was in whatever was going on there what the hell was going on there and uh because that's the underside of this machine here

is that as much as the the the glamour and the the movies and and the upside of it there's a i i would argue a more powerful dark side that that's being marketed even harder yeah like i mean it's like because just along with that article like they didn't want to cover that. But I guarantee you, if you went to TMZ or any of those other ones, they're like all up in that shit. Yeah. And everything's like, I had this weird moment where I'm like, when they started doing like Inside Hollywood and those kind of new shows. Yeah, yeah.

I was like, they're not supposed to do that. Yeah. That's like, people were supposed're the they're the makers of the illusion that's right don't drag their garbage out into the world that's right can we protect them somehow that's right that's very guilty of it i'm guilty well we're all guilty of it i mean that's that's part of it you know it's getting me all broken hearted and i remember when um when i if you and i read her autopsy i mean i read everything all these women i've read all their autopsies um but hers and the way they found her like crumpled up in the shower

laying on the ground and i just thought that is the most heartbreaking thing i've ever heard of a girl who just followed her dreams so hard she followed it right into death into this lonely position in this lonely way and she couldn't get work and you know it's the worst case scenario it's the thing you go to bed at night dreaming will never happen to you uh like it's your worst fear is that no one will want you anymore who is heather o'rourke heather o'rourke um was in the movie poltergeist yeah and actually heather and the other one that's in there, you know,

she says, it's sort of written like a movie scene. Yeah, yeah. Heather was in Poltergeist with Dominic Dunn. That's who it is. Oh, she's dead too. That was her older sister.

They were both, it's so weird. They were both in Poltergeist together. Yeah. And Dominic Dunn was murdered. Right. And Heather o'rourke died of some very strange uh like a lung infection or pneumonia they weren't really sure but she was very very

young um but they were both in that movie together and they died sort of sort of close i think uh closely after each other like one where the one where they built the condos on the Indian graveyard? Oh, yes. That is it, yeah. They shouldn't have done that. Yeah. That's caused nothing but pain for everybody.

The other one in there. Yeah. Those poor people. Yeah. It's just a mistake. It's just sad. Yeah. The other one?

The one that killed me was the Bridget Anderson Savannah piece. Bridget Anderson was a child actress in a movie called Savannah Smiles, which was a very popular film. very popular film but she grew up and couldn't get work in her teens and then committed not committed suicide on purpose but did a ton of drugs and ended up uh overdosing and dying and then shannon michelle wisely was a porn star um her her screen name was savannah right she used to date paulie yes yeah and she shot herself in the head oh my god but she what was so interesting when i started researching her the connection between these two women was and i'd read all this stuff about shannon and i finally got this weird i got my hands on this weird book this weird autobiography of her and i learned which is why i wanted to cover her because she was savannah yeah which

because many porn stars try to get out of business and try to get into acting uh the porn industry and so she was talking about that and she'd really tried hard before she killed herself uh to become an actress and then there was this one little quote in the book where they say where do you where did you get the name savannah from and she said oh my favorite movie growing up was savannah smiles i love that movie about a young girl that runs away from home and then everyone comes and gets her and saves her and you know her family comes and rescues her. Oh it's just heartbreaking. Yeah and if she had only known the the the irony of that connection been able to see it to see how these patterns unfold when you don't do any work on your interior life. You know, there might have been some different hope for her.

I like to think that, but that's me. Again, that's my own projection. So you were really in it. You were really completely obsessed, making connections. And that's why I started to write fake actresses. It was to supplement a way for me to get out my own thoughts obsessed, making connections. And that's why I started to write fake actresses. It was to supplement a way for me to get out my own thoughts and feelings about maybe things I'd been through,

but also just the worst thing I could imagine, the worst thing I could make up in my head, and then to write a poem for that. Well, thank God for the epilogue. Yeah. Where you sort of come out of it in a way. Yeah. And it seemed like the one part of it,

like you had to go out of your way to be yeah and at least like it seemed like the one part of it like you you had to go out of your way to be like ground yourself yeah well that's what the search the search list is too which took so fucking long to put together but it's just a series of every single actress that i could find um in the you know National Archives and across the world. And I had my assistant Jessica and Harper Collins and this woman who works at the National Archives. I was finding every single name in recorded history around the world of an actress who died before the age of 40,

and just to list them, and that's what we did. So I'd be hard pressed for anybody to look at this book and tell me a name that I forgot that's not in there. They are every single one in there. Well, hopefully that's not who's coming to the book.

No, I don't. No, but. God forbid someone says, I think you missed, you know. No, but the point in saying is that, you know, all of them you don't recognize. It's that celebrity,

the infamy of that state of't recognize is that celebrity, that the infamy of that, of that state of mind of that celebrity of, oh my gosh, I didn't, you know, I didn't get this, or I'm not being featured in this, or I'm, you know, that, that attitude, none of it matters. And that none of, none of their celebrity deaths mattered. All that mattered was their interior life. And that giving, so giving voices to that is in a way some sort of post-mortem healing, I think.

I think so. I agree with you. Or that at some point somebody will read it and go like, wow, that's, you know, an interesting way to look at it. Well, when did you start writing poetry? I started when I was,

for reals when I was 12. I had written a poem called kill me so much which was a early feminist political i just used the f word on your show it's okay i can handle it what the feminist yeah um it's me the offshoot offshoot podcast what the feminist yeah you should it's it's it's needed now It'll just be me and Kathleen Hanna and a bunch of dildos. There you go. It was even at that time, and it's in my first book. My first, I put out three books now, but the first one was poems I'd written from age 12 to like 21. And it was very much an ode to my writing mentor, Jack Hirschman, who's the poet laureate of San Francisco.

And another person I was raised around a lot of the beat poets, because my dad was good friends with them. Which ones? Lawrence Ferlinghetti, Michael McClure, Diane DiPrima, that whole... The ones that were still alive. The ones that were still alive. That's right. That's right. Those are San Francisco guys.

Yeah. Does DiPrima live up there? Yeah, she does. And she wrote the forward year book. She was also sort of like a biographer of the Beats too, wasn't she? Kind of? Or was she always just a book? No, she did write a book called Recollections, My Life as a Woman, which is an extraordinary.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, okay. But she was the only woman in that group. What a nightmare that must have been. She was the only woman in that group. What a nightmare that must have been. Well, she was, you know, like very, very tough Italian, you know, believed that men were a luxury. She did not feel like she needed anybody to help her raise her kids.

She had kids from all different men. I mean, just like she was, she's the original feminist gangster in my opinion. So when she offered to write that forward, I almost fell off my chair. It's a sweet forward. Yeah. It's pretty. She grew up with, with like uncle Larry Ferlinghetti around. Is that what you're telling me? Larry Ferlinghetti.

Lawrence Ferlinghetti. I didn't, I don't really know Lawrence that well. He's a, he's an odd bird. It's gotta be a hundred now. He is. Yeah. Yeah. He, he gave bird. He's got to be 100 now. He is. Yeah. Yeah. He gave me a quote from my first book.

And I remember when I met up with him with Jack Hirschman at a coffee shop in San Francisco. And I said, thank you so much for doing this. It's really sweet. This quote is beautiful. I'm so honored. And he just looked at me and was like, you have really nice hair. Okay. Well, I don't know what uh i think that's a poem that he just gives like i was like i don't know how to move on from that yes that's so much for feminism thank you with the question mark and mccora was like the younger of the beats it seemed like he

was uh he was yeah He was, yeah. He is. He's, you know, they're all getting up there. Who was your favorite? Who's your favorite poet in general? Who's my favorite poet in general? That's such a big question. Modern or classic?

I mean, who do you read? Like, who do you go back to? I go back to Louise i go back to uh louise gluck of her um i go back to bob hickok he's one of my favorite writers um there's a guy jeffrey mcdaniel that's really really really a fantastic writer um beautiful poet but i love like elizabeth Beautiful poet. But I love Elizabeth Barrett Browning. I think Anne Sexton, she's to me probably one of the most important poets. Yeah. I think you would really love a book called Alien vs. Predator by Michael Robbins. Oh, see, I don't know any of these people.

Yeah. You of all people would dig that. Okay. For sure. So I'm glad you wrote this. It seems to have saved your life. Yes. And these drawings, some of the paintings are by David Lynch?

Mm-hmm. And some are by who? There's David Lynch, Marilyn Manson, Marcel D'Azama, Adrian Tomain. He does a lot of the covers of The New Yorker. Uh-huh. Kid Koala. My dad did one. The one with the woman falling down the Hollywood sign is my dad's collage.

Oh, I like it. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So you came through this. Mm-hmm. Dave Cross, your husband, an old friend of mine, supported you. Please don't call him Dave.

Why? Just call him David. Slappy. Slappy Cross. Do you ever call him Dave. Why? Just call him David. Slappy. Slappy Cross. Do you ever call him that? Does anyone call him that around you? No. Is that an old nickname?

You don't know Slappy? I don't. Really? No. Slap? Come on. I don't. Well, now you do.

Oh, man. I can't wait. I like to call him Jennifer Aniston. I think that's your nickname. Mm-hmm. No, Sl I think, that's your nickname. No, Slap was something that a few, there was a few guys. I think that's Mark Rivers, John Innes. Oh, yeah.

Those would be Slappies. Got it. Back that far. But what do you, so he supported you through all this? Like a good man? Yes. See, it's really difficult for me because we haven't talked about Cross at all cross at all and i got along i know cross a long time yeah and uh and i know you you know him like no one else knows him so you're gonna see like even that poem the wife poem he wrote in here is

very sweet and i know he's very sweet but i'm not gonna you know usually as sweet as dave gets is a cranky concern you know yeah it's uh everybody all of my friends especially anytime a new friend meets him or you know when i was first introducing him to my friends when we were first dating um that i it never failed every single person would say afterwards i don't think he likes me very much it is the most I've known him for like 30 years. I say that. I still say that. He's very private.

And he doesn't like hugging. Yeah. And he just is. He's not a bullshitter in the sense that he's just going to suddenly become your friend just because you know his wife uh that's his that's sort of his feeling and he's that way about everybody he just uh it takes a minute for him to warm up but then when he does i mean he's the most loyal person i know so yeah how is he he's good he's good and and they're going and they're going on tour with the mr show thing they're not going on tour they are uh shooting um uh they're going on tour with the Mr. Show thing. They're not going on tour. They are shooting a show.

They're shooting a new sketch show. Really? Yeah. With the same crew? Everybody. Yeah, the same crew. Is it called Mr. Show? I mean, I can imagine this is going to air by the time all that's known.

But it's called With Bob and David. And I can't say what thing it's on. Okay. Well, good. But let's talk about you. Enough about Dave. I've interviewed Dave enough. I actually had to.

I wanted to hear his interview on here. And I had to buy your fucking premium package to do that shit. She just asked me for it. No, I wanted to give you the dollar. Thank you. It's a real, I really appreciate it. I know it's a lot of money.

I was so, but I was so irritated just having to fill out a fucking thing. I'm like, this is bullshit. How was that interview for you? I loved it. I called him afterwards and I said,

you know, I'm so glad that you asked him about his dad, you know, and you guys talked about his dad it's a thing he doesn't talk about and uh again very private person and and i think it's nice because i think that people assume that he's a dick um and he's he's not he just can be cold and he just can not like i said not warm up to you just because that's what people do uh he he takes a minute yeah just he takes a minute to and he's serious he is yeah you know he's uh and he's a little uh a little cranky

sometimes i don't think he's a dick i think he's serious he's a little cranky he doesn't uh entertain fools gladly or at all yeah and uh and i and i I think there's usually some sort of current of mild frustration going on. There definitely is. For sure. Especially when he has to hang out with my friends and listen to Drake. Then he gets really irritated.

Now there's, where's that movie? Where's that documentary? Yeah. You got a documentary living in your house with you yeah he's like can't we just put on some nashville pussy what is this shit oh dave and his music fire hose okay i can't i cannot keep track he'll put something on in the car from the old days yeah from the old punk rock days yeah i don't i don't i don't get it yeah he's uh he's a character but yes so now do

you look back at your acting career with any sort of love oh 100 yeah uh i think what were the high points for you i think i appreciate it even more i i would say the sisterhood movies because i got real friendships out of that um those girls were uh were and are um very very good friends because that's a freak accident that it happened that way um because normally you don't you know there's always like an undercurrent of uh not jealousy but um uh you know competition and that never happened with blake and american alexis so i would say that that that those movies were highlights for me for sure and do you like with this new project you did a lot of tv work do you love the tv work i do yeah i love it yeah yeah it's but you're like a working actress person yes Yes. Yeah.

And I hope to and have been doing in the last couple of years, especially since selling this book and getting my film made of producing more and writing more, which is and directing, which is all I have now seen what I'm capable of in a really great way. And I believe in myself. So I can't return ever back to the world of just auditioning and depending on other people and depending on other people yeah and i don't think that would have been possible can you talk about the movie what what where did it come from what's it about when did you write it um it is an adaptation of uh a janet fitch novel she wrote white ole. So it was the novel she wrote after that, Painted Black, which is about a young man who kills himself and the two women he leaves behind. His girlfriend, who's a sort of punk rock L.A. artist, nude model, you know, does all that type of stuff for money.

And his mother, who's a very very wealthy world famous concert pianist and these two women blame each other for his death and they are constantly attempting to um kill the other person it's good it's like uh it's like if quentin tarantino directed gray gardens is it funny parts of it yeah but it's heavy it's it's heavy but it's uh there are parts of it that are funny it's a melodrama what was it like directing melina i mean he's a monster yeah he's an actor he's a good he's incredible he's just um i meant monster in the like yes yeah yeah i mean you know it was uh of course it's nerve-wracking but um but at the same time he's just such a generous person, and those type of professionals as well, they come in. Janet McTeer was like that as well.

They come in, which is how I was always raised, that's hilarious, how I always went into work, was knowing all my lines, all those things. That's how Fred came in. He came in fully prepared. And he's just wonderful, really beautiful in the movie. How were you raised around that? Did your father used to tell you how to behave within your profession?

Well, he would take me to the set for seven years when I was on General Hospital. And he would give me acting notes uh sort of i mean he thought i could do better where did he learn that act i don't know how i don't know if you learn anything if you start when you're nine um but i mean i would have thought that during the 60s there would have been some know, meeting with co-chairs or doing that. Well, he was born in 1934, like back when, you know, tumbleweeds were all the rage. And so he was like a kid actor in the 40s, which is crazy to me. And what were his parents that they would let him do that?

Well, my grandfather was in vaudeville. He was a big vaudeville star, Eddie Tamblyn. And I actually, and he died of a brain tumor. So I put him in my search engine in the book when I start, which is actually very close to how I would search things. What was his shtick? I actually don't know. My dad has given me this chapter of his book that I haven't had a chance to read yet called Eddie and Sally, my grandparents. And it's all about them doing, they used to tour the Orpheum circuit.

And so, you know, my grandfather did maybe one or two movies and then that was it. And they came out here? Yeah, they came out here. From the East Coast? No, they were, they were out here? Yeah, they came out here. From the East Coast? No, they were born here. Huh. Yeah, so I'm third generation from here. Third generation showbiz.

Yeah. Now, what's your mom do? My mom is a musician. She plays a 12 string. She's- Guitar? Yeah, she's pretty awesome. Uh-huh.

Musician, songwriter sibs got any just just my sister my half sister the half sister that you learned of later yeah and you're close yeah she's fucking awesome she's a welder she welds heavy metals she lives in san francisco i cannot express to you how exciting it was for me as a kid as terrified as my dad must have been to have a young 17 year old with green hair not literally knock on the door and go hi i'm your daughter for me i had it was like poof like magic i'd spent my whole life playing with barbie dolls and all my friends had siblings and i suddenly had this cool teenage sister who played an electric guitar like pj har, who was in an all-girl punk band called the Kirby Grips.

It was like the coolest thing that could have ever happened. I suddenly had this awesome older sister. Rebel angel delivered. Yes. To save you. Yeah. It's really, really true. From old hippie stuff.

Yes. We're here to take you out of hippie land. Yeah, exactly. And what's your relationship with david lynch um david i know uh through my dad because my dad was in twin peaks yeah right um but i don't really know him i don't i don't know if anybody can really know him but um i just had written him and i actually it, it's interesting, because the poem for Sharon Tate in this book, I originally sent him that poem because I thought that that would be the one that he would want to do the artwork for. And he didn't. He was disturbed by it.

And actually, I think, had written. That's no small task to disturb David Lynch. Yeah. She put that as a blow. Well, the poem is from the perspective of her unborn child during the murder which was you know the only way in which i could approach that subject i thought uh without it um being taboo was to try to show if i if you know if i'm writing about the interior lives the metaphorical interior lives of these women why not do a poem that's about the literal interior life as it's happening this would be the only and honestly the only way to do it in which it wasn't brutal that you wouldn't have to talk about the terror that was going on outside of her body sort of like this

weird reverse situation um so it's from the perspective of the child on the inside as it's happening and what they're hearing and, you know, seeing these these holes of light like stars coming through. But David, I think he had said to me, I don't remember, but something about he didn't know why such a painful thing needed to be revisited like that, which I was very surprised and sort of taken aback i thought for sure that was going to be his uh he'd be into it but he wasn't um and of course marilyn manson was like yes that's the poem for me um but uh but david i i knew briefly through um just because of dad and doing twin peaks you know when when for a moment i thought he wasn't going to do it, I shared this story with him. I emailed and said that, which is true, I wasn't allowed to watch Twin Peaks. I was too young. But what I would do is the way my parents' apartment is set up is where their TV was.

I used to watch, I think it was on Thursdays or something. I used to watch every single week. I, you know, quote quote unquote go to bed, but then I had a Hello Kitty mirror and I would stick it around the side of the door and I'd watch the whole show on a Hello Kitty mirror. Oh, that's commitment. Yeah.

So I told him that and he was like, God, fine. So they're both okay, your folks? Yeah. And you get along with them? Oh yeah. Very, very close with both of them. And now you're going to go back home upstate?

No, go back to Brooklyn. Yeah. You guys still have the house upstate? Yes. And you got an apartment in Brooklyn? Yeah. That's nice. Yeah.

So how much time do you spend upstate? None. Oh, really? I mean, I think I've been there once, you know, but I had to direct a movie and I had to play here. What about him? Is he up there? No, he's here in LA. movie and I had to play here. What about him? Is he up there?

No, he's here in LA. He's here now? Yeah. Working on the thing? Yeah. And then he goes straight to London to do another season of Todd Margaret. Really? Yeah, they're doing a third season.

It's like years later. I know. They've had a really good idea for how to make that happen and it works. For IFC? Yeah. Oh, that's exciting. Yeah. Okay. Well, it was great talking to you. Do you feel satisfied? I do. I feel very good. Do you want to read a poem? Are all your listeners going to be turning this

off right now? Hell no. What one would you read? Maybe I'll read the Brittany Murphy one. It's short enough, I think. As he slowly hands over the book. I like them being read. I shall read. It's a nice thing.

Brittany Murphy. Her body dies like a spider's. In the shower, the blooming flower seeds a cemetery. A pill lodges in the inner pocket of her flesh coat. Her breasts were the gifts of ghosts, dark tarps of success. Her mouth dribbles over onto the bathroom floor, pollock blood. The body is lifted from the red carpet, put in a black bag, taken to the mother's screams for identification. The country says good things about the body. They print the best photos, the least bones, the most peach. Candles are lit in the glint of every glam, every magazine stand does the southern bell curtsy in her post-box office bomb honor. The autopsy finds an easy answer.

They say good things about the body. How bold her eyes were. Bigger than Hepburn's. The way she could turn into her camera close-up like life depended on her. You're doing good, though. Doing good good it's a great book and i and i i hope uh thanks mark and i'm glad you're you got through whatever it took nice to see you me too thanks that's it that's the poetry discussion there we go it's a beautiful book it's a it's a it's a hell of a meditation go to wtfpod.com for all your wtf pod needs i pulled out the telecaster anyone

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