WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 600 - Sam Seder

Episode Date: May 6, 2015

For the 600th episode of WTF, Marc goes back to someone who was there at the beginning. Sam Seder and Marc retrace the path of their contentious friendship, which reached its combative apex right before WTF was created. Also, a surprise guest who is staying in the hotel room next to Marc drops by for an impromptu chat. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Order now. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. Lock the gates! All right, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fucking ears?

What the fucksters? What the fuckadelics? What the fuckleberryfins? And what the fuckenheimers? Why not? Why not anenheimers? Do you have any idea how many of those have been submitted to me? Do you have any idea how many of those names and things that I've gone through? By the way,

hi, I'm Mark Maron. Welcome to the show. This is WTF. This is the 600th episode of WTF. Isn't that amazing? Is that amazing? The first episode was September september 1st 2009 recorded just blocks away from where i am i'll give you a little a little bit of taste a little taste of the history uh of of how far i've come right now i'm in a hotel room in new york and i'm only i'm only about five big blocks uh and uh maybe 18 little blocks away from where from where wtf was born the studio it was born in is nearby there was an argument to be made that i i just maybe broadcast from that studio but i don't think it's there anymore i don't know what's in that building where the last phase the last incarnation the last structural representation of Air America Radio once was. I don't know

what's in there now, but I'm sure that that studio, which was state-of-the-art and built specifically as a studio for that network, I'm sure now there's nothing. It's just memory, just a flash in the pan of the history of a building on 6th Avenue. But the point is, on the show today for my 600th episode, my guest is Sam Seder. Sam Seder is now the current host and proprietor and man in charge of the Majority Report. That's a live show. It's weekdays at noon, noon Eastern. It's also available as a podcast. You can go to majority.fm to check that out. But Sam and I, he was there at the beginning. He was there at the beginning of WTF. He appeared on one of the first WTFs as the guy stealing cable, I think, from the Air America studio that we were both recently fired from.

I will give you the backstory on that momentarily. What I'd like to do now is there's sort of a surprise guest. We have a surprise guest. I'll explain to you the deal. Okay, I'm staying at a hotel where a lot of people stay. I've seen a lot of people here at the hotel. It's just one of those hotels. It's kind of fancy, but it's kind of homey. So I was at the hotel hanging out yesterday.

And who do I see? My old pal, Jack Black, who you know. Jack and Kyle have been on the show. Tenacious D has been on the show. I've known Jack for years. It was nice to see him. He's here for the premiere of his movie, The D Train, which I know starts in theaters tomorrow because I was going to do a plug for it. We had a plug on the docket for The D Train, and in my i think uh all right great well jack's here why not go accost him instead of just being social and go hey man i got my shit i got my gear it's up in the room do you think maybe we could do a little thing about the movie that you're here to promote do you think maybe i could get in on that because we're all buddies and he said i don't know mark and then No, Mark. And then, well, I texted him. And it turns out he's literally next door.

And now he's in my room. Have you stayed at this hotel before? No, but yeah, it is crazy down there. It's a scene. It is. I mean, I can't believe it. Who did you see? I saw a lot of people.

Really? I saw the girl that was in The Woman. The Woman. The Girl. Who was on The Cosby Show? No. Lisa Bonetti? Yes. I was in The Woman. The Woman. The Girl. Who was on The Cosby Show? No. Lisa Bonetti? Yes.

I was on the elevator with her today. I was too. You were? She was taking the elevator a lot today. I think she's on that floor. It's a coincidence that you're right next door to me. I know. I was in a movie with her, so we have a previous relationship and a friendship and a bond that

you don't share. No, she didn't know me at all. At all. Nothing. Nothing. I said, hi. And she goes, I said't know me at all. At all. Nothing. Nothing. I said, hi. And she goes, I said, how are you doing? She goes, just getting started.

You? And I said, I'm good. That's pretty familiar out of the gate, though. Yeah, I guess. I mean, it's not your average. Not much. Right. But this hotel feels kind of cozy.

Everybody feels like we're special here. Who'd you see? I saw the woman from House of Cards who was killed by the president. Oh, did you say, like, I'm sorry that that happened to you? No, because I know what acting is. Did you see Zac Efron? I didn't. Is he in the building?

I saw him walk out yesterday. You know what I really wanted to happen yesterday? A super shuttle pulled out in front. I really wanted a major celebrity to get into the super shuttle. Oh, man. That would have been the best moment. Super shuttle, you really want to live close to the airport. Then you get the best deal. Right. Then everyone's sort of

like, oh, where are we stopping? This guy first. He's right here. Right here. But the weird thing is, if you're on a super shuttle, you get to meet cool people. Sure, nice people. And you know where they live. Exactly. That's kind of creepy. You're a dentist?

I'm coming over. I don't need an office visit. Look at my teeth at your house. I'm writing it down. What have you been doing? Promo. Just pimping my wares. Yeah.

I got a new flick, and I'm telling the world about it. But not everybody. Right. We're keeping it cool. Just trying to keep it very hush-hush. I think the premiere's in a back room at a bar somewhere, isn't it? Exactly. Are you going to dress up for it?

Some movies you want just exclusive clientele only. It's not for everybody. Yeah. What is the movie? It's a little dark comedy about insecurity and about popularity and unpopularity. It's called The D-Train. Yeah. What's the pitch?

It's about a high school reunion. High school reunion. Yeah. Okay, I see that. Least popular guy at high school. Wants things to be different this time. Wants I see that. Least popular guy at high school wants things to be different this time. Wants to be accepted. Wants to be popular.

He organizes the 20-year reunion. No one is RSVPing. It's his nightmare come true. He hatches a plan. If he can get the most popular guy, Oliver Lawless, to come to the reunion, everyone will come. Played by James Marsden, Oliver Lawless to come to the reunion everyone will come played by James Marsden Oliver Lawless

incredible is in Hollywood now struggling actor but to me he seems like he's the king he's made it because I saw him

in a national television commercial Banana Boat this guy is the shit so I go to Hollywood to get him to come. I'm already telling you too much of the plot.

That's not a good pitch. Well, it's a good pitch, but I'm not pitching you the movie. I'm selling you a ticket. Right. Well, I like the pitch idea because in my mind, if that was the pitch, you've already done some writing. Let me tell you something. What, buddy? This thing writes itself.

Yeah. I've told you enough. There are twists. Yes yes there are turns we push some boundaries for real really yeah it's a fun movie that's why i like to is there action is there action that no not really well emotional roller coaster yeah yeah yeah emotional explosion it's not good when you ask the question is is there action? And the answer is no. That's immediately not selling tickets. Does that sell tickets? Some people go, good, finally, no action. That's a movie I can enjoy.

But Jack, you are action. You are action personified. Then you shouldn't even have to ask that question. I apologize. But I'm already compelled because in my mind what has to happen is you realize the guy's not what you think he is. Exactly. Love that. Exactly.

And it turns into maybe a sad and challenging story that's hilarious. It's not easy. You know, sometimes it's very awkward, and those are the moments I love. That's what I'm drawn to. Did you have fun making the movie? Yeah. I mean, we made it very fast, 21 days.

Really? And those are the kinds of movies I like, too. Like, I did a movie, Bernie. Yeah. We did that in like three weeks. People love that movie. It was great. It was a great Richard Linklater joint.

I know. I talked to him about it. And I felt shitty because I didn't see it. Now I'm feeling shitty again. Look, don't feel shitty. Just see it. It's not your job to see things. We're selling that movie today uh yeah we are okay everything's always available forever into eternity you look well man i feel good thank you for noticing my

wellness yeah how long you been in town um just a few days yeah i whipped in just day before yesterday and then whip out tomorrow have people seen the film? what's been the response? to the screeners we went to Sundance Film Festival and they loved it who cares if they loved it, we got in you understand how exclusive

how competitive it is I don't, I'm not in that business it's almost impossible go make an independent film see how many times you get into Sundance. Well, do you have time to do my independent film? I've got no pitch. I haven't even got an idea, but I would like to attach you to it.

Wow. Yeah. Can I attach you to an untitled, unscripted, no idea movie right now? Will you commit to it in my hotel room? Subject to availability. Absolutely. I am so all the hotel room i yeah subject to availability absolutely i am so all the way in subject to availability good man that's a vote of confidence that's always i'm gonna take it to the i'm gonna go right to producers yeah subject to availability jack

black's in on an idea that i might have soon sold wait how's? How's the family? The boys are great. The wife is great. How old are the boys? Six and eight years old. Oh, shit. So that's a blast. Yeah. Tommy and Sammy.

And yeah, they're doing a lot of screen time, which is really good. What do you mean? Like on FaceTime and stuff? Or screen time? It's a lot of like iPad. Oh, yeah. And like just in television. So they don't talk to you at stuff? It's a lot of like iPad Oh yeah And like just And television

So they don't talk to you at all? You're just sort of like Boys! No, I mean Yeah New studies are coming in now that show that that's the good parenting Oh really? The ones that give them as much screen time as possible

Is that true? I'm doing really No, that's not true They don't have that much screen time Yeah, yeah, yeah But I have to come clean with you They do have some Sure

Lisa Benet was in the elevator And she judged me pretty harshly When she found out that my boys had some screen time Oh, you talked to her about it? That quickly? She's on a zero screen time policy I bet She doesn't look like a screen time person

No No, that's hands on Mommy's here Full on Organic Yeah, holding Love A lot

Maybe breastfeeding well into the kids teens yeah i don't know studies have shown that it tastes good it tastes good but means something different as time goes on so today's thursday yeah may 7th yeah the film opens tomorrow friday yeah may 8th, in theaters across the country. That's right. 900 theaters, I believe. Does that matter how many theaters? I think you shouldn't say that. You should say it's 9,000 theaters.

9,000 theaters? The most theaters that have ever been shown. Yeah, the movie comes out tomorrow. It is an uncomfortable little masterpiece. It's not for everyone. It's just for people who like really sophisticated, interesting, dark tales of intrigue. Right on. The D train.

That's it. And thank you for being a special guest on my 600th episode. Buddy, is this it? Yeah. Does this count as an episode? This was just a little nugget. No, there's more. There's more.

This is just a little part. This is just the beginning. You're part of a bigger episode. Oh, wow. Great. The fun starts. Who else? Who am i opening for sam oh sam cedar you know sam of course great guy well now he's a political man right he's a political man but a very funny guy and a funny guy and he's like him and i go back and we thought it was inappropriate has he always been a political funny guy or did the politics come later as he as he blossomed i think you know

he got more political. But when I met him, he was a comedic actor. That's when I knew him. Yeah. Back in the day when he was doing TV and stuff. And he was dating Sarah Silverman. Yeah, he was around. And then something grabbed him.

He said, fuck TV. Yeah. I don't need it anymore unless I need money. Yeah. And now I'm going to fight the good fight. I see him occasionally on MSNBC. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. He's a great guy. He good fight. I see him occasionally on MSNBC. Yep. Yeah.

Yeah. He's a great guy. He's a great. He's great. He's annoying, but great guy. You don't have to say that. He's fighting the good fight. But I'll say that.

I can say that with confidence, having worked with him a lot. You're saying that he's a good guy. He's a good guy, but difficult. Because you have to say it. No. I don't have to say it. But you believe it. But I do say it.

You believe it. Yeah. All right. Well, good luck with the thing. Okay. Thanks, man. Thanks, buddy. Good luck to you. You know, that was surprise guest 600th episode jack black everything everything

worked out today somehow but let's talk about sam cedar let's talk about me and sam cedar let's talk about wtf let's talk about the evolution of of where it came and and to where we are now me and sam go way back and we're going to talk about that. When I met Sam, he was a comedic actor. He did some sketch comedy. He had a thing that he was doing. He was always very ambitious. He was making movies. There's a lot of stuff that Sam did, and he was hilarious, and I saw him as a kindred spirit. We were both aggravated, self-involved, funny Jews. And I related to him immediately. And we have sort of a long start and stop history. He was in San Francisco, and I helped him out there.

And then he was there at the beginning of Air America with Jeanne Garofalo on the air. And I was in the morning on the air, so we worked together there. But really what happened before WTF started, the year before WTF started is sort of a painful story for me in a lot of ways because I don't know how many of you watched break room live but it was a live streaming video show done done out of the break room at the Air America headquarters over there on 6th Avenue it was our big idea but how did it happen many of you who have watched that well actually it wasn't many of, maybe a few hundred of you may have seen Break Room Live, but maybe you enjoyed the tension and true aggravation of the Marin and Cedar dynamic at

that time. Let me try to explain what was going on there. Here's how WTF began. And this is sort of the, a little bit of an extended version. I had been fired from Air America several times. I was their original morning guy. I was part of a crew. We did a great show. You know, Sam was always doing the show with Janine later at night. I was the opposite of Sam.

I was early in the morning, but we did a great show in the morning. About a year and a half in, a moron named Danny Goldberg took charge and fired us because he thought that Air America should be more like NPR. We tried to tell him that there already was an NPR, and we were doing some irreverent funny shit. We worked hard. We made good funny, quality funny, top-shelf funny. And Stern had just left Terrestrial.

We were poised. We were doing good shit. And that dummy Goldberg shut us down, fired me. But there was still a couple of people within the organization that were like, we like Marin. Let's keep them as a, let's keep them in the batter's box. Let's, let's create a placeholder for me. So I went back to LA defeated, pissed off, and they got me a show on KTLK. So they stuck me me at 10 at night uh in a time slot where they still had an outstanding contract with a with a sports affiliate so me and jim earl who's my co-host used to sit there waiting for games to end clippers games and some other team i don't know

so we do an hour hour and a half show depending on how much time was left after the fucking game ended it was siberia folks it was nasty. And then Air America came back around and said, new guy in charge. We want you to come back and do mornings. I'm like, you guys still owe me a lot of money on my contract. They're like, that ain't happening. I'm like, I ain't coming back. So that was that. No more Air America for me. I go on with my life. And shortly after that, my wife says, I'm done with you. And she leaves me heartbroken, messed up. My wife says, I'm done with you. And she leaves me heartbroken, messed up.

I was going through a bad divorce. No kids, just spite money draining out of me. Bankruptcy on the horizon, almost losing my house out of nowhere. One of the old dudes from Air America, Carl, he calls me up and says, look, there's another new guy with new money here at Air America. I think we should take some of that money but in return give him a video streaming video show we'll do the daily show on the internet and you're gonna host it and i'm like dude i'm shattered i'm heartbroken i'm despondent i'm incapable of being funny uh but if they'll pay to get me out of my divorce i'll be there in a second so i negotiated a deal where the new money

guy would give me money to pay off my ex-wife and stop the hemorrhaging and i would do this streaming video show so we put the deal in place i got to air america new people new money i could not even think about being funny i was emaciated and just a fucking mess and i said well i well, I need my producer, Brendan McDonald. He's got to be part of this and you got to pay him good. And I need Sam Cedar in here because I'm not going to talk about politics. I can barely talk about food right now.

And if we want to make this work, someone's got to carry that fucking weight. So Cedar said, all right, give me some money. I got his money. But the problem is, is that Sam is a pretty righteous dude. He's a smart dude. His heart's in the right place and he's fighting the good fight. But I was not into fighting that fight. So I fought with Sam. So we would fight constantly on the air, off the air. But the thing about Sam is incredibly funny. Enjoyed having him around.

So that went on for about a year. We're just alternating between being at each other's throats and having some tremendously great laughs. That's the Sam and Mark dynamic. So obviously, the show doesn't succeed. I actually thought it would. Sam always defiantly said that it would never succeed and we should just be happy to take the money. Whatever. Hilarious guy.

Truly one of the funniest people I know, to be honest with you. I do love Sam Seder a lot. So we get fired, but they don't kick us out of the office. Sam is busy creating whatever his next thing is going to be. He wants to stay in the game. He wants to put together his show.

And I'm like, well, we got to do something else. And Brendan and I decide to start WTF while we're sitting there in the office with sam who's working a bunch of angles of his own uh but quite honestly there was no way i could include sam in wtf because he was driving me fucking crazy and i was at the end of my rope but he was there he was right there in the office with us talking about stuff i think he credits himself with giving me the idea to do a podcast. But you can hear Sam early on in these in I think on one of the early episodes, but it's been this long.

It's taken me 600 episodes to have Sam on the show legitimately. So that's that says something about our relationship. So is that sort of give you an idea? Are you with me? Do you understand the Marin and Cedar dynamic? Now, Sam Cedar has put me in his movies. I opened his now famous Who's the Caboose film. I think I was cast. I think my credit is bitter guy at bar, maybe. And then he had me play a manager on the series of Who's the Caboose,

which I played Sarah Silverman's manager. He also had me play a slightly nutty Hasidic postal worker in The Bad Situationist, another classic Sam Seder film. See, like a lot of you don't know that Sam Seder, it's confusing sometimes because he's known in the political world for his punditry and his majority report FM as a political opinionator. I think that's a Republican word. But also a very funny guy, funny actor, creative guy, a filmmaker, a dear friend of mine. And his time has come. I put him in an episode of Marin on IFC, which is very funny.

And he's here. He's here on the 600th episode because he was there at the beginning. And this is a way of marking that. I don't think he knew he was going to be on the 600th episode when we recorded the interview. So there'll be no reference of that. He was the butterfly that sent the ripples

that changed the weather around the other side of the planet. Before I introduce Sam, I do have to say this, that, you know, whether Sam and I, whatever our relationship is, I do want to thank you, the people that listen to this show and have supported this show and have been there for me in a way that I could never even imagine. I'm humbled and grateful to the people that listen to this show. And it would not be, I would not have done this 600 episodes if it was not for you people. And that's the truth. If this had not caught on, I don't know if I would have had the fortitude. If I was not doing something that so many people enjoyed, I don't know whether or not I would have had the perseverance.

So thank you for listening to this show. And now I'm going to put you through something that you may find either entertaining or challenging. My conversation with Sam Seder at the Cat Ranch. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed,

how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by James Clavel.

To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series, streaming February 27th exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. Have you ever been to D.C. and done the whole thing? You know, I've been to D.C. multiple times.

And when I was a kid, you know, in college I interned yeah in Capitol Hill you did yeah so you went into the Capitol yeah that's pretty cool yeah and I've been into the Senate chambers since then and you know I would you doing there just you know basically ran around with my pants around my ankles just to see if I could get caught no it's great right no actually you're allowed to do that that's one of the few things that they let you do. Is that part of the filibuster? You can do that during a filibuster?

That's right. Yeah. Not a lot of those guys use it, though. It's in the Constitution. No, it's in the Constitution. If you're doing it with your pants around your ankles, you're okay. Sorry, guys. But I took that little subway they have underneath the Capitol.

I've been there a few times. It's pretty amazing i'm always uh overwhelmed with uh awe and excitement when i'm there uh you know when i was there as an intern i was like i never want to come back to the city ever again because of what it's involved in or just because of the way it looks i just found it like to be a crappy city it is sort of a crappy city but the actual mall itself with the museums oh yeah when they're you're sort of like wow it feels powerful and the monuments you know you stand there at the lincoln monument like damn this this is big well i mean this is 30 did something this was 30 years ago too i mean those

are all still standing it's not oh my apparently yeah apparently the washington monument has been there for like yeah thousands of years thousands the egyptians built it that's one of the first elevated pyramids they were working on that, though, for a long time. I don't know. As ignorant or as out of the loop or apathetic as I am, when I go there, I'm always very moved. You know? And I go and I go to, I stand out in front of the Capitol. I look at the White House.

I do all that stuff. And I'm like, I have that moment where I'm like, I'm proud to be an American. Yeah, I don't have emotional reactions to things so it really cuts off my what are you talking about i just don't i don't know why to anything i mean come on you're getting along with your daughter now like i i can see it you're like my kids yes she's like this a real person now and you're very excited about it no i've always been you know uh i've always been excited and you know ambivalent i mean kids are not you know but no i've i love my children that's good yeah no so i can say that proudly let's let's

let's talk about a unique person how you uh you sort of change tracks because it's a long interesting process and people know like you're out there what it's seriously an interesting way of saying it well well you know because you're still funny and you know you still have uh you know kind of huh moderately no i think you're very funny oh well thank you always i always i there was always a hope in my heart that you would come back to the funny side and then it just never wins out i know i try i try like this you get really close and then something really close and then i'm like oh wait a second you know i mean the i what i mean i think part of it is like there's always something that is uh nagging at me i mean when you're when you're

being funny uh there is necessarily a certain part of you've got to take certain liberties on some level, right? I mean, a lot of times you've got to get very specific, but there's also some sort of corners that you have to cut. Right. I think it's like an OCD problem. It just nags at me. So you're saying a lot of times comedy trivializes the real issue. It's not a question of trivializing. It's just not accurate.

And so it's, you know, for it to be funny. Broad. It's broad. It's broad. Okay. And, you know, and then I'm like, wait a second, though. Technically speaking, you know, at a time of recession, you don't want the deficit to

be shrinking right and and then you know that type of i mean that's it's very hard to make those specific things funny except to maybe one or two like you and uh you know uh right that's exactly that's my business model you and malikas what's his first name marcos yeah you marcos could chuckle about that there is i mean it is i think like that you and david serota could have it right exactly laugh it up yuck it up about the possibilities of that working yeah i mean it's a pretty narrow uh like i do think that you know you remember that steve martin joke i think i can't remember what album it was but i mean this was you know from like the seventies or whatever it was, where he's got that joke, I think,

about like going to the plumbers. I think it's the plumbers convention. Yeah. That's not a ratchet wrench. That's sort of, I feel like what my career is. But it's good that you know everybody. What do you mean know everybody? I mean that like your audience.

I know my entire audience. Yes, that's right. And the other people. By first name. Will understand. That's right. But it didn't start out that way. You grew up what?

In Worcester, which I find hard to fathom. Because my experience with Worcester is that when I started, when I was in Boston doing comedy and in college, you'd drive to Worcester to go to the centrum or something and just look like a, to me in my brain, I didn't spend much time there. I was working at a parking lot probably. Really? At the centrum? Yeah and just look like a to me in my brain i didn't spend much i was working at a parking lot probably really at the centrum yeah you think maybe you know the thing about waster is it took three referendums to get the centrum in because people were afraid of the outside element so so it gives you a sense of like how shelter provincial is that what you call it yes parochial parochial yeah really so worcester was like, gave them out. We don't want the other element here.

Yeah. Really? Yeah. And you remember that? But was Worcester, when you were a kid, was it, like to me it was,

it died. Yeah, but it was dead when I was born. It was? Yeah, no, it was a very big industrial city. Well, that's just because, I don't know,

that's where their parents were. Oh, really? That's where their parents were. Oh, sure. Huh. My parents didn't move to Worcester to like, to start a life. Yeah, no no people don't do that what about now is it nicer now is it coming back around no I actually think it's I mean it's fascinating Worcester has just been I mean again

like now like the first thing that occurs to me when I talk about this is like there were industrialists right and I've had arguments with people who have argued, like have gone back into the records to debate as to whether or not there's the validity of this story. So I should just say that right up front. That there are people that argue this, that are not on board with what you're about to say? Yes. Okay.

But my understanding is that if you look at the Massachusetts Turnpike as it comes from Boston to Worcester, it should cut right through Worcester and then head to Springfield. Oh, no, it goes around, right? But it goes around. Yeah, I remember doing that remember doing that and worcester at the time that this was built had some of the biggest industrialists in the country like wyman gordon and norton the biggest abrasive company in the world the company that developed the m1 garland uh rifle uh the space suit and they wanted to maintain the uh the the sort of inexpensiveness of their labor force. And by adding 20 minutes to the ride to

Boston, you do that. And they also, I would argue, kept just about every idea out of there. Like, you know, the sting is just opening in Worcester. Right. But how does it add 20 minutes? So, like, they wanted their labor force closer by? Well, no.

In other words, like, the commute to Boston as the crow flies should be 45 minutes less yeah 40 minutes yeah but it really takes like an hour now yeah uh because you got to go down south and then get the mass pike and then come back up right and so you know by adding an extra 20 minutes onto that commute 25 minutes uh it means that the labor force is not able to move as quickly uh and and worcester's not a suburb of boston in which case the labor force would have been more expensive right they wanted to keep it cheap by keeping it worcester by keeping it yeah somewhat isolated so but second biggest city in New England. Is this something you realized, what, when you were like five or six or...

No, I think probably closer to 12. I mean, I did, I was heavily involved in Worcester local politics. That's not... As a child? Yeah, I was. I was always sort of dual tracking it. I was doing the, you know, Doherty variety show and also student government and there was a charter commission at the time.

I don't want to get into this. Were you a student government guy? Yeah, of course. Oh. So your dad, your parents, your dad was a lawyer. That's correct. And he had a law practice in Worcester. That's right.

And your mom? Was a teacher, model school teacher. And you had just one sister? Two sisters. Oh, yeah, two sisters. Yeah, you've hit on both of them, I'm pretty sure. or just maybe maybe that's the problem you've probably just hit on one you grew up with john benjamin too everyone knows john benjamin yeah we talk about john benjamin that's right and you guys are best friends yes and what's the story his mom who did i talk to well she was a ballet uh teacher and taught my sister. Right. She probably taught all the kids.

Yeah. And you guys, was there a large Jewish community or was just you and the Benjamins? It was just us and the Benjamins. We would get together for a minion. No, I mean, not a huge Jewish community, but a decent sized one. And your grandparents?

It shrunk considerably, apparently. But back in the day, there was probably like a nice area? Yeah i mean the wet there's the west side of worcester right and then there's the uh you know the sort of the south and north and east and i just like to me it was always like hey how are you like that it was just well i mean there's a lot of that accent in my family and you know a couple of beers it comes out with me, but it's not... I don't think it's a bad thing. I'm just saying, I don't get... It's a blue...

It's sort of like a, you know, like a... Blue collar New England. Yeah. Yeah. It's sort of like a not as bad lol. Did your grandfather own like a business? He was an attorney. Oh, he was an attorney too.

Oh, yeah. No, that's the thing. I went to law school for a year and when i dropped out the name of the firm was cedar and cedar yeah and there were my grandfather's name was samuel cedar right and he had four brothers who were attorneys yeah all in cedar and cedar and then in my father's generation there was like four other guys but by the time i dropped out of law school my dad was the last seater in the firm. And like I specifically remember

when I left law school to do comedy, walking into my dad's law firm and like the junior partners were just like, well, follow your dream, follow your dream. They'd all just moved up a notch and was he was your dad disappointed was your grandfather disappointed well my grandfather passed away before i was born oh really yeah where'd you go to college undergrad uh connecticut college with john benjamin did you guys do comedy in college? Um, we did,

we did a radio show. You and John. Yes. That was, uh, and you guys were best friends like when you were 10? No, no,

we were arch enemies. When you were 10? Uh, probably closer to junior high. Yeah. Did you get bar mitzvahed? Uh, well,

I would beat up his friends at the, the bar mitzvah circuit. Right. You did the beating up on the bar mitzvah circuit. Yeah. I think he told me you were kind of a bull. Right. He did the beating up on the bar mitzvah circuit. I think he told me you were kind of a bully, right? Well, that's the thing. I did hear part of that exchange, and John's sort of like a pathological liar.

Is he? I mean, he's a little bit reformed, but a lot of what he talks about, this stuff is sort of imaginary. But it seems like you're saying that it's true, that you were beating people up. Well, no, I wasn't beating people up. I was getting it. His friends were, you know, were also bullies. And so it was just like, it was more like a rival bar mitzvah gang thing. So you guys were enemies.

We were enemies. But then I think through high school, like I didn't really deal with them at all. And then. Really? What were you doing? Were you smoking cigarettes with the cooler kids? No, I was at a different high school like i didn't really deal with him at all and then um really what were you doing were you smoking cigarettes with the cooler kids or no uh i was at a different high school oh and um and uh i found out that he was going to connect college like i think the day before i went and then i literally our our our doors or our dorm rooms are almost the distance

apart from where you and i are now just by coincidence by coincidence and um he didn't mesh with his roommate i didn't mesh with mine then we went out and got drunk and the next thing i think i know that i think john had like a 1.82 in that first semester but you guys regrouped were you like oh thank god you're here finally you know i mean i think we eased into it yeah i think alcohol helped that. The drinking age was 18 at that time in Connecticut. But was there a moment where you're like, oh, fuck, this guy is here? Yeah, I think I was. I think that was the night before. But, you know, I had gotten something from my roommate that I thought was, he had sent me a letter.

Your roommate? Before we got there that said something to the effect of like we should get a refrigerator because i hear it's really good for coca-colas yeah and for i mean it was a very awkward letter and at one point i'm like oh my god this guy's brilliant yeah this is hilarious yeah he's trying to scare the shit out of me and there's nothing i'm gonna do it's not gonna and and i got there i realized like no that's not the case he was just that was he was just controlling guy yeah he was a he was a weird very controlling guy and was uh what happened to that guy i don't know i don't know what happened to my first roommate i don't know it was not a good thing no it wasn't great all right so you and you and john you hang

out you get drunk he's failing out of school you're doing all right i'm doing all right yeah and uh you're doing a radio show yeah i mean i we did a radio show briefly uh sam minus john i we would go on as a duo and he wouldn't say anything and that didn't go we just did a couple of those on the on the so you'd say something and there'd be just dead air more or less uh-huh and um it's interesting as a that's the only device not it but i think we used to like just goof around with stuff and uh but we didn't really do comedy i went in as a theater major yeah and left very quickly and got more into student government i was heavily involved in student government you stopped being a theater major yeah to do student government and yeah i was a government i ended up being government and

religious studies i think what scared you about the theater so quickly it wasn't so much that i got scared is i was uh you know i was i was in the the the program and it was a pretty good because it was associated with eugene o'neill um uh theater in new london and um i had to uh there was campaign night to run for you know whatever it was i was running for and um i had a job on midsummer's night's dream on the production to literally like pull the rope yeah to bring the whatever it was the the princess up uh you know yeah on the elevator and i went to the director and i said look i gotta come late tomorrow night because i gotta give a speech and they're like well if you're not committed to the theater then you're fired and i was like are you fucking serious all right guess what i'm gonna do you one better i quit

everything so i showed that guy yeah i bet you when your name comes up he probably goes oh damn it cedar how did i let him slip through my fingers so So that was the moment. See, it seems like that was a cathartic moment. That was the decision. I'm turning my back on the arts. Yes. And then, of course, I have vacillated. That decision has continued throughout my entire life. But wait, but in high school, you were a student government guy too?

Student government. How high did you get in the... I was, I think at one point, vice president. So you couldn't really seal it? you were a student government guy too student government how did you get in the uh i was i think at one point uh vice president it's just couldn't you couldn't really seal it couldn't couldn't seal the deal with the president couldn't you know i never i didn't i don't know that i attempted but i still actually am in contact with the president oh you are yes and we're waiting to return uh less than recording he's actually a pastor. Yeah. Is he really? Yeah.

And at a Baptist church down, I think, I don't know if he's in Atlanta. Really? Yeah. That's interesting. And we're waiting. Yeah. We're waiting for the right time to go back and- To move back in.

Take control again of- Of the high school. High school student government. All right. So what'd you run for in uh college there when you when you turned your back on shakespeare to uh to go to student government president was that president of the class yeah you were president of the class and president of the student government both yeah they just what not simultaneously at different times oh

i thought no one ran you're like will you do the other things too? I was very involved. There was a student government at Kennedy College that's pretty vigorous, and divestment was a big issue at that point. And I remember giving a big speech to the Board of Trustees, and it was actually a little bit tricky because Pfizer was in New London,

and Pfizer had a lot of work in South Africa. Right. The board of trustees was meeting on Floralia, like with the spring fling. And I was a little bit tipsy, went in, gave a speech, and we divested. And then the chairman of Pfizer resigned from the board of directors because of it because of you no i don't know it was me but but the college divested yeah wow that's something yeah so that must have given you a taste of the power there was a couple of uh of actually there was like a search for the dean of student life i mean there was a lot you know i

always contended that the the the dynamics more or less stay the same yeah uh the stakes change but the dynamics stay the same which is actually sort of disturbing when you think about it which dynamics the dynamics of politics yes uh because when you start to realize and you know i think over the years that that i've been doing it much now i guess 10 years has been talking about politics and you know sort of like getting involved in that world you start to realize like hey you know what a lot of major policy decisions are made just because some guys are jackass like just a fucking like a douchebag and he doesn't like bill stevens is a real asshole so i'm going to fuck 20 million people out of a fair wage or something like that. I mean, like literally.

Yeah. That's what happens. Yeah. And that's a really, I think, hard thing to wrap your head around because you really have to, I think. That they've detached themselves from the physical reality of what effect it has on people. Empathetically, they've detached themselves and it just becomes this in-house dick fight.

Yeah. I don't know that they were ever attached to be detached. I i think there's a certain amount of like well that's a sort of right well that's a sort of a sad thing that you know somebody who who gets involved in being a career politician without really the the incentive of of looking out for the disenfranchised or the underdog you got to question their their their intentions yeah i guess but i mean i think there's a certain inevitability like these are the type of people who gravitate to these type of things and on both sides i don't know i guess i'm thinking of like joe lieberman and right you know we could have like a medicare buy-in at age 55 yeah you know which would be

great right you know particularly for someone like yourself yourself yeah myself yeah yeah but he fucked that up i know oh well but well so why didn't you why didn't you get into politics in terms of running i was i was contemplating that but you know i think i had uh my experience in college i just felt like i don't want to have to live that type of life what life was that that you saw at that time just like where you have to always constantly be putting up a projection. Oh, to be diplomatic. Yeah. And to be charming. Yeah.

I mean, I don't know. Some measure of that. You've got too much fight in you. I think at one point I thought that I was going to go do that. Well, like Congress? Yeah. I mean, I think probably Senate. Uh-huh.

You know, I think probably Senate. Uh-huh. I would say, you know, it's- That's where you'd start. I mean, I don't know. I just remember saying to myself, like, when I was working in Washington, like, I'm not coming back here until, unless I'm like a senator. Fuck that. Yeah. And, you know, I think I, at one point, had the idea that maybe I would do that.

And, but I don't know, something, something snapped inside me. And I think, you know, I went to law school for a year and then I decided, I mean, I had traveled for a year and then went to law school and then traveled. Yeah. I went to Australia for about a year. I hitched around Australia and work there before I went to law school. Right. Oh, when you, after you graduated college? Yeah. I had, I, I had gotten some fellowship to do some leadership thing that would have put me, work there before i went to law school right oh when you after you graduated college yeah i had i i had gotten some fellowship to do some leadership thing that would have put me i think in like st louis with a year yeah doing like a bunch of different like local stuff and i just i don't

know i just i didn't want to do it because i thought maybe i want to go into comedy what what struck that nerve what's's that? The comedy nerve. Well, I had been performing. I had always sort of had this dual track throughout my- Through college? Through college, through high school. You were performing comedy? Well, I was doing the variety show, which was a comedy show.

Sketches? Characters? Yeah, and I was doing magician. I was a magician when I was a little kid. That's the way I would make money, like shoveling snow and doing magic shows for parties and stuff. What? Big stuff like escaping from tanks or just with a sleight of hand?

No, it was like seven, six year olds. It was basically like babysitting, but you know, I had a top hat. So that was basically it. The cedar kid does magic. Yeah. He's got these three tricks. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Yeah. So, so that was was so you did the variety shows and then okay so do you think though that part of the reason you didn't want to get into politics is that because like even when you talk about policy you understand the nuances of policy but you also understand the the the fucking heartbreak and never-ending struggle to to chisel away and deliberate policy takes years and it's very un i would think it's like it's almost like ungratifying and and it's uh it's you know you have to just quietly chip away there's not a lot of ego in it sometimes i didn't like the the the the sort of the public persona part

of it i felt like i didn't want to have to maintain some fake persona well they yeah they have to sometimes to the point where you're like what's in there right it's a very weird thing man no i i mean i think that's why i i i sort of never went in that direction and and and so um i once got like my buddy jim who worked for clinton he got me into a photo op thing like clinton was doing a thing where he's at a at a rich people probably a fundraiser and then everybody like they take pictures with him right and jim was going to sneak me in to take a picture with the president and i it was almost like someone had turned him off like like there was a switch like i stood beside the president of the united states and it was nothing there it was just he

was just he had gotten he had figured out this way to just exist in this moment and let people yeah right and then move past him but i never had that feeling like where it's like so detached well i mean literally the hundreds of thousands of people that you've got to shake their hands and but that's what that's all they do so that's their biggest challenge is to figure out a frequency at which to engage with the public yeah and then the rest is just a bunch of guys telling them different things they go like okay that's a good idea right oh yeah let's do that i mean i i think there's some substance uh you know the you know depending on the politician there's a there's some substance, you know, depending on the politician, there's a lot of substance there. Yeah.

And some more than others, you know, put on that persona and have to. But, you know, to me, it just felt like I don't want to do that. I mean, I think, you know, for me, it was like, God, what did I deny myself by not being able to be drunk in the student union when I was, you i mean you know to reduce it down to its sort of lowest but then but comedy is like completely different what was compelling you towards that just the like you liked making people laugh you like being an entertainer that was a fat kid and so you were yeah we've talked about all right not here not today how fat were you i know i was fat i was the full-on husky thing yeah yeah i mean that's why i think like i still am very like virulently anti-label because as a kid i realized like i'm not walking around with a fuck with pair of pants that says fat kid on it that's ridiculous like why do i gotta do that so i got in the habit of taking you know labels off of and then like you know i sort of maintain that the husky labels yeah yeah um and i also you

know i i i was not you know i'm not like uh i didn't necessarily fit in socially yeah for the most part right i mean i don't know if that comes difficult yeah a little difficult i was much more difficult as a child i think and so how is that possible I think you'd be be amazed what was wasn't there some big prank that you and Benjamin did oh well there was all sorts of stuff like you know John like I say it was sort of he got himself in trouble because he had done something with I mean I don't want to talk about it but it was with Charlie's parents right that was it yeah he told this whole story yeah yeah well you don't want to talk about even now 40 years later right well i don't know 30 years later 30

years later i mean there's there's always been a series of pranks i mean like you know when we were in boston i couldn't john and i that's why i had a hard time with you i just can't take that john i would go to parties and be like you're a defense contractor you're a dentist yeah and then just strangers oh yeah no we would give each other jobs yeah and then yeah because and i don't know we were sort of dicks at that time i think it was a little dickish he always struck me as a no he is a dick i i i i understand you like and i understood you kind of innately immediately but he was like the wild card i was like what is yeah. I was like, what is... Yeah, he's got a real attitude, bro.

And it's cost me. It's really cost me. I mean, like... You throw John under the bus? Well, yeah, I mean, like... Like, you know, just like everything from, like, working at a restaurant in Cambridge when we were there doing, like, you know, like,

I don't know, it was cross-common. Oh, that's right. You worked at that Italian restaurant or what? No, Chinese restaurant. Well, I worked at a Chinese restaurant. I remember that. That was crazy. Cafe China.

Before that, I was working at Casablanca. Right. And I wonder if that's even there. Benjamin's the type of guy who, you know, here's the thing is like Benjamin will just mercilessly make fun of people. Yeah. And they'll just, they'll love it. Yeah.

And I, you know, that's the one thing I've always admired about him is like he can sort of like express sort of frustration with people and they just sort of like, but I can't like let that sit. Right. Like if I'm like making a joke with someone, you know, and it's really sort of like there's some anger behind it. Yeah. It's not enough for me to have just, like, said it in the joking context.

Right. Like, you know, you're a jerk. Yeah, yeah. And then I got to go, like, no, no, I'm serious. I really don't like you. Like, that's my problem is that I can't, you and benjamin could sit there and go like a douchebag yeah yeah yeah but with me it's like a douchebag yeah no i'm not joking yeah i actually really do think you're a douche but i just want to make that clear i just it's very important to me

that we understand that i don't like you and so there was one time like you know i got fired at casablanca i got him the job you were both working there yeah but i got him the job there i got fired and he didn't tell me he actually like sent me back in and the manager was like what are you doing here i'm like what do you mean it's my shift john didn't tell you why would i was living with john yeah we were roommates why was it his job to tell you you were fired well the manager said tell you why would i was living with john yeah we were roommates why was it his job to tell you you were fired well the manager said tell you your roommate why were you fired because you know i was like that like i you know i would go up to the manager go

hey i have a different idea about how it is i mean it's like i always thought that this is not efficient what you're doing yeah exactly, exactly. And the thing is, is that I will concede that that's really annoying if you're a manager. Right. But I will also say in my defense, I was right.

The guy was a liar. She wasn't doing his job. Right. And so, you know, I don't like to do things. Well, he clearly wasn't doing his job. He couldn't even fire you.

He told your roommate to fire you. Right, exactly. No, exactly. So John didn't tell you. No. And he went to work. And I'm not convinced he didn't stoke the fires too. Oh, really? Yeah. Got you fired. Yeah. So, but't tell you. No. And you went to work. And I'm not convinced he didn't stoke the fires too.

Oh, really? Yeah. Got you fired. Yeah. So, but this is also, again, this is really the difference between you and show business and you and politics. In both arenas, that particular issue. I don't know that, I don't think in, in actually in comedy, I don't think I ever got myself

fired in that way. No. No, no no no no but i mean but just the personality issue i don't think that in show business that ever hurt me i don't think so i i mean maybe it did but i wasn't well let's go through the show business because i met you what was it like i know exactly the moment we met was in harvard square yes and it was i had done an open mic right i was with a couple of friends who i had invited not enough benjamin was there you guys were both out and i was walking

i was walking yes you were walking with soon to be your first ex-wife yeah and uh i think i said i don't know if benjamin was there i don't think he was and um i and i said um oh that's mark marin that guy who did it before or whatever. And you turned around. You were like 15 yards ahead of us. I don't know how you heard or you sort of like sensed that there were people. And you turn around. Is there a problem?

And that moment I remember really well because it really, to me, expresses. Because at the time i was like wow he's really cantankerous but what i came to realize was that that was you saying like can you ask me for my autograph that was basically what you were saying here is it is there a problem like why would they know we're in harvard square we're walking around like a bunch of like you know i'm wearing i don't know like i'm wearing, I don't know, like, I'm wearing a butt. You know, what possible problem is there?

It was really you saying, like, hey, could you come over here and ask me for my autograph, please? That's what that was. And that dynamic is really, I think, what I've come to understand about you. Like, when I'm doing that, I just need attention? Yeah, that was like, yeah. It was like, hey. Give me a hug.

It's not even just like, hey. Like, yeah. Shouldn't you guys be coming to ask for my autograph now that was the next sentence no that was the that was should have been right that was the subtext the subtext of fuck you is come on let's hang out right yeah that's true well it's not even just hang out it's like take care of me let's not even take care of me it's like celebrate me yeah exactly but so it's slightly different than your particular problem right no my problem's slightly different than that so wait so all right so you were doing the sketches i was doing sketches and uh i was doing stand-up i remember and benjamin working at that fucking chinese restaurant i left uh law school and benjamin you know, was in like a Holocaust master's program at Northwest. And I was like, so I said, come back, let's do comedy.

You told him to drop out too? Yeah. And I didn't have to convince him. I don't think. A Holocaust master's? I think he was like in history. And I think he was like, you know, Holocaust studies was, I don't know. I think he's like wrote something on Eichmann or something.

Holocaust studies was, I don't know, I think he's like wrote something on Eichmann or something. And we, at one point, I guess, you know, like, I can't remember exactly how it happened, but we ended up in cross comedy. Right. And doing that. Which went on to become Mr. Show. Like I was involved in the very first cross comedy and then there were people folding. Right. And then that's how I met you around that.

I mean, that's how I met like everybody I know now. John Innes, Warren Dombrowski, Chucklar Carrie Prusa Jonathan Groff right cross and a Driscoll was around yeah there was free like you know yeah because people would do sometimes they do stand up on the show and then sometimes you would write a sketch but that's how like I met Louie right and Janine and Laura Keitlinger. Right. It was that Catch a Rising Star scene. Right.

And that was a great time. I mean, Benjamin wasn't really doing stand-up at that time. He was just doing the sketch. But I was doing stand-up. So I would do a little bit. I remember. I would go with some road stuff, but not that much. I went with you.

Didn't you go with me once somewhere yeah what was that that was bad it was down like on the north south shore i feel like and you did like three or five minutes and you had to get off wasn't horrible there's just a chair on the stage what happens and that i mean the stuff i did at that time was really i remember because i'm like come on you got the time right and i would do stuff that was really sort, you know, my whole thing was to annoy the audience at that time. Well, you and Cross were kind of similar like that. Yeah, there was parts of that sort of Andy Kaufman. I was a big Andy Kaufman fan.

Right. And I was always trying to deconstruct stuff. It's so funny because in my mind, you don't have to try to do that. Well, I know. I mean, it came very naturally to me. And so. So what happened? So, all right.

So we're all doing Catch a Rising Star. And I know that those guys, this is like the late 80s. And those guys. Early 90s. Early 90s at this point. But like cross comedy, they all moved to LA. Must have been after that. I guess that's right.

Right around the time that I came out to San Francisco. Cross comedy was starting to sort of like disintegrate and i was just like i want to go check out another scene and i don't know what i was doing out there frankly i mean i was weird because like djing bar mitzvahs and in san francisco assistant djing bar mitzvahs actually yeah um i do remember one really uncomfortable. Should I tell this story? Sure. Do you really want me to? I don't remember what it is.

You can cut it out if it's not appropriate. But I do remember one time where you were saying to me, is it cheating to have phone sex? I'm like, I don't know. Have you told? This is before. You're married. No, but it was also before the internet and everything.

This is all you had. Oh, right, right oh right right yeah right cheating to have phone sex um well i don't know i mean sort of seems like it unless you're talking about it and uh you're like okay i mean see that guy i'm phone sex with don't say any names i won't say your name yeah i'm phone sex with don't say any names i won't say your name i'm phone sex with uh his girlfriend his girlfriend and and i was like well that seems like something i didn't want to know and um and then uh you know and i would obviously you know we would i would have dinner at your place and you're like oh uh kim wants to come over for dinner tomorrow night and so i show up at dinner yeah and it's you yeah kim yeah me yeah the guy and the girl you're having phone sex with oh no and i'm sitting at the table going like why the fuck do i know like i really was that i found that very upsetting yeah frankly yeah i was it's a little bit of drama yeah but it was like i didn't everything turned out for that guy yeah well no yeah i mean i'm sure everybody's happy now yeah you didn't appreciate

i'm the only one who was scarred from the whole thing let's put it that way you didn't appreciate i dragged you into this yeah i just don't like i don't feel comfortable knowing stuff like that really no i don't like to know i don't like i don't like gossip i don't like to know do you really not like gossip i really don't i mean know, if it has anything to do with like personal relationships, I don't like to know anything like that. Sorry, buddy. I didn't mean to bring you in to that. And I feel bad about it.

It's 25 years. I still feel like creeped out. Well, it's a skeevy feeling to be put in the position to be somebody's like confidant. Yeah. Well, it's not a confidant. That's not, you know, confidant's different. Well, I feel bad about the whole thing. Maybe I should apologize.

I wonder what happened to her. I wouldn't. I would leave it alive. Just leave it be? There's definitely no value. There's no reason to it at all? No. All right.

Yeah, it was a different time for me. It was a different time. Sure. I don't know if it was really a different time. It's like, well, yeah, I'm alone. I'm alone again. Things have gone. You went the other way. You got a wife, two children.

Right. I got, what have I got? Oh, come on. Panic. Two cats. Two cats. But wait, so what happened in San Francisco that made you go? Well.

Because like you went and had a kind of a half a career in show business at some point. No idea. I went. You were a bar mitzvah DJ. I went to. I kind of remember that because you were like. Because I remember you. Saturdays, I wasn't around. That was the one time. But you a bar mitzvah DJ. I went to. I kind of remember that. Yeah. Because you were like.

Because I remember you coming. Saturdays I wasn't around. That was the one time. But you were like I'm doing it on my own today. Like I remember there was like a time where you like. The guy gave me his stuff. Yeah. And I got to go do it myself.

Right. Like you know I had no idea. I was only out there for like six to eight months. I don't know how I got that job. I just don't know who that guy. It's so funny that you can't. I have no idea who that guy is. Do you remember him?

Can you picture him? Vaguely. Like vaguely. I don't that that time just seems so distant but i remember you were lost because i was like do you want to do comedy do you want me to help you out now because i remember we went we took a ride i was having i had a problem with the idea of like i gotta get a headshot like no fucking way i'm not gonna market myself i wouldn't do anything like businessy and so i was going through a very difficult time and i went back to Boston. My girlfriend was back in Cambridge. And I actually, it's funny, I hadn't thought about this in a while, but I didn't know what to do. And I went to go, my mother's boyfriend lived like two blocks away from my girlfriend at the time in Cambridge. away from my my girlfriend at the time in cambridge i went over to my mother's boyfriend's house and i was like i don't know what to do i don't know if i should go back out to san francisco because if i'm just out there i'm just going to be out there for like three or four months

and come back in the spring and or i should just stay here now and just you know decide like i'm gonna try and do something productive and get a headshot and like actually engage in the business of this and i don't know what to do my mother's boyfriend just like he is this guy who um was you know he was at nyu film school and uh what was it uh scorsese said like come up with me up to uh upstate there's gonna be a big festival we're gonna shoot it and he's like why would i do that what's that gonna be and he was like incredibly well read and is like a maven right you know yeah and he just like listens to me talking he goes and grabs a book and he gives it to me yeah and it's uh john barth's end of the road yeah i don't know if you know that book and i got in my pocket and i'm walking back to my

girlfriend's thing and i'm like i don't know what to do i'm like i just like this is this ambivalence was like with me for years yeah and i'm walking and down mass ave in cambridge and i'm like god i don't know what to do i don't know if i should go back i don't know if i stay i should go try and do something and i walked by the video arcade that was there and i'm like i'll call benjamin we'll go play video games right and i think that was my only solution right because he lived around the corner and i walked towards the phone booth and i suddenly remembered benjamin was out of town and i froze in mid stride and was stuck frozen on mass ave like just sort of like this with like one arm up like almost reaching to the phone booth and i couldn't move and i wasn't like i i don't know if i was saying some type of panic attack or what it was but i was there for at least 25 to like 45 minutes

yes and the only thing i can remember thinking is like this is really fucked up but it won't be a problem as long as none of these people walking by me going to lunch come back if i can get out of this position before anybody returns from lunch i'll be okay otherwise it's going to start to seem awkward you know because it wasn't like a place where you would do street art right and although it's conceivable people thought that and slowly come out of it i walk to my girlfriend's apartment which is like a block away and i immediately start reading this book and in the second chapter it's about this guy having a frozen episode like being frozen just like that and this concept of i think they called

it mythotherapy where you're sitting in two chairs and it's all about being paralyzed by the potential amount of options yeah they're available i know that i get that at home depot yes exactly well the idea is that any given choice that you make yeah is necessarily not as um as palatable as the aggregate of all the other choices and you know but it was after that and a lot of therapy that i just decided i'll get a head shot and i'll start but that's like anxiety it was anxiety but it was like an intense ambivalence right because um i i i didn't you know i didn't want to go into politics i didn't want to put a projection out there yeah and you know i was starting to realize like you've got to market yourself in some fashion you got to do a headshot you got to actually do the business of right and

you know for me i mean i think i think at one point that's right why i think i left comedy on some levels like i had lost the sort of sense of like there's too much of the business part of it and you know I had done by the time I had left I had done like a lot of stuff yeah well wait okay so you had the frozen moment you read the Barth's book and then you got the headshot and then how do you get into television I just like stumbled into shit. I stumbled into shit. Like, you know, I moved down to New York in October of 94. Yeah. I had been doing voiceovers in Boston. An agent in Boston, you know, like a booking agent.

Remember Maura Tai? Yeah, kind of. She had been a voiceover agent in New York or, you know, casting agent in New York. She set me up with a couple of uh meetings with like icm and william morris yeah paradigm yeah i i made them all in the first two days that i was there in new york in new york icm just coincidentally was setting up their scale department they sent me out on an audition a voiceover audition the first audition i had in new york i booked it by the time i got to the meeting at icm they had heard that i had booked it right which was like well yeah so the guy was like

and i remember him he was standing in front of his desk and it was the full full like la it was in new york but he was standing in front of his deck talking into an earpiece and at that time you know people didn't have cell phones right earpieces it was a big deal it was a big deal and he's talking into his looking out to the view yeah and he waves me in and he's doing the whole show yeah and at that point i was just like you know like when you're in boston doing this stuff it's like it's very like i just got to do a bunch of different jobs i mean this is what and so he's like sam we want to uh icm is blah blah blah blah and i didn't know icm i didn't know what the just assume you know whatever yeah and i was like well um you know he's like uh you already booked the thing and i want to

keep doing this i said well i'd love to but i've got to meet with william morris in paradigm tomorrow and then when i went to william morris i said i met with icm yesterday and they already sent me on audition which i booked and so and so then for the next couple months i had three agencies big agencies sending me to the casting agents. And so the casting agents were like, who the fuck is Sam Seder? He's got three agencies sending him in. And so when they pay attention to you, all of a sudden, like, you sound better to them. You're in the top 10 and you start booking.

And so the whole thing steamrolled. Yeah. You know, and so it was like creating some type of buzz. yeah you know so it was like creating some type of buzz and at that point um my girlfriend at the time moved out to la yeah to do uh pilot season and so i went out there to just like my girlfriend was that was sarah yeah and uh sarah silverman sarah silverman yeah and i went out there and we lived together in that apartment that's in, who's the caboose? The Montessori School. The Montessori School.

Mary Lynn Rice-Kelvin's living in the living room. Tracy Katsky. Tracy Katsky. And we had been up in Boston doing the comedy lab, which was me and Waterman and Benjamin. Right. And we were doing all this sort of what ultimately became, at that time, alternative comedy. And some people from Comedy central were opening up uh a room rebar in new york yeah and i came down and everything that we had been doing up in boston

was perfect for that room right was perfect for it and you were shooting stuff i was shooting a lot of video and i shot before you went to new york before i went to new york yeah i shot a i remember that like a 30 minute yeah yeah comedy lab that was a fake sort of industrial. Like I was- That's right, yeah. It was a pitch reel for the comedy lab that kept falling apart because- So you were self-starting before you got this agent thing. And you had that, because you guys sort of branched off.

See, this is important because there was this, you were kind of like a leader in this idea where once Cross Comedy went away, and you knew you didn't want like um a leader in in this idea where like once cross comedy went away and you knew you didn't want to be a stand-up really but you knew you wanted to keep working so you're sort of doing this you know this satire of a lot of different stuff you were shooting your own shit i remember that because a lot of video involved so i went out to la and i with sarah for pilot for pilot season i was just out there you know i figured i'll do voiceovers right my manager was like you shouldn't go out there. You're doing well in New York. And I'm like, dude, whatever.

Yeah. You know, it's like. Well, you're also dating somebody. Yeah. Having a good time. It's not like I'm going to Nebraska. Yeah. I'm going to LA.

Right. There's some industry there. Right. And so I got on All American Girl, which was a revamped pilot with Margaret Shosha. Right. And they were revamping the pilot on air right so all of a sudden her entire family died and she was living with like uh three hipsters right and in that one week i had made more money than i had the year before right like the entire

year and um i went back to new i think like i think sarah and i was starting to like break up around that time or whenever and um or the first that was the first time we broke up so i went back to new york for a short period of time but then we got back together so i i tried to audition for another show and that's when i did uh that fox show yeah that um that larry wilmore was the producer of and oh the john ridley called the show yeah and bowman and matt wickline you were the white writer for a black variety show yeah and uh paul giamatti was in the pilot and but didn't you do like 10 of those yeah yeah i did that was like it got a lot of big press a lot of big they thought that show i mean this is where i really started to understand like you know i mean i i had totally stepped in shit like i mean like

i auditioned for five things and booked two of them i mean it was completely it was total luck and i think part of it was just like the swimmer hole yeah well the the key was for me at that time was wednesday night or thursday night was the biggest was must see tv it was the biggest night of television it was most successful yeah and it was uh seinfeld silverman schwimmer and you know maybe some other jew the other the single guy yeah well silverman was i think that and and so i was you know that guy yeah it was totally like the it was just total flavor of the day yeah and um and i'll tell you like i i really thought i mean it was a real lesson they thought this show was gonna be so big like i would walk i remember just like feeling like i would walk down like in warner brothers in the studio and just like oh my my God, like executives were like, like literally like in golf carts coming towards me.

Like, Hey Sam, how's it going? Like, I thought like, oh my God, there's, there's like three or four executives. I'm convinced they're married, but I'm convinced I'm going to sleep with all of them. Like I've never had this type of like interest in me at all about anything, you know, like my family from friends, nothing. And it was a weird time was like the first year after like the friends had just become a hit yeah and we'd be in line behind like jennifer aniston and schwimmer and the show was all was a was the you know bowman

was the director was the creator of martin and so it was trying to meld these two things and that was what i think was supposed to be like the next all in the family type of thing right and for an episode or two it probably was there and they lost their nerve but it was it was fascinating first of all i learned so much from that both in terms of hollywood but also in terms of like how uh segregated like the black and white experience hollywood was right um and what do you mean because like well because it was exploring that so you're saying for two episodes it had some balls because ridley's a brilliant guy yeah and and wilmore's a brilliant guy yeah and obviously the conceit was based on reality yeah i mean it what was interesting i mean there was a couple

of things that there were interesting i mean both the context of TV, but also outside of TV. I had one experience, we tell the story, I don't know, a lot on my show, which was going back to Chris Spencer's house one time. Chris Spencer was one of the guys on there, and he went on, I think, to host a vibe show and some other stuff. He does a podcast with Magical. Okay. Yeah, he's good.

So Spencer, we went back to his house. Spencer was always upset about the way I dress. He actually, at one point, bought me clothes. He's like, you're embarrassing all of us by the way you dress. But we went back to his house, and we pull into his garage. This is during lunch, and he lived in Hollywood at the time. Yeah. And a buddy of his pulls in right after us, driving a Range Rover.

And at that time, you know, that was the big car that everybody drove if they were successful. Right. The guy comes in. He goes, oh, thank God you were here because I was being followed by another cop. And he comes out. He's like, I've been pulled over four times this month in my car. Right. And I called.

He said, I called the LAPD last week. And I was like, I keep getting pulled over. Is there any way I can get a stick? He's a black guy. And he's getting pulled over because he's black driving this Range Rover. Is there a sticker I can get or something that just says like i'm supposed to be in this car and the guy says in the car and and and the cop on the other line says you know are you black and he says yeah and he says really nothing i can do and i just really like jesus fucking christ i mean if i was

getting pulled over once a week i mean you imagine like someone like our personality gets pulled over once a week that would be it there's no there's no i'm not gonna do i'm not gonna write i'm not gonna write jokes i'm not gonna go stand up i'm not gonna do a pie i'm going to focus on this one injustice 24 7 with everyone i meet every way i talk to you and it's like you realize like that's an experience that you've got to and it's like you realize like that's an experience that you've got to go that's a huge set of luggage you're going to carry through your life to deal with it's like but i mean so that was sort of an experience outside of that but the other experience was like the night before the table read i read the script and there's this character big fruity yeah who's part of the posse of the lead of the show.

The show, I played a head writer of a sort of a black talk show. Yeah. And they have a posse. And it's like, they got to drop their guns off before they come in. And it's Big Fruity is the guy. And I'm just thinking to myself, like, God, man, this seems a little bit like caricature bit like caricature right i don't know how comfortable i feel with this yeah and so we go in for the reading the table read and at the beginning of the table read i think bowman says um you'll notice everybody that uh we had to change the name of some of the characters big fruity

is no longer big Fruity. And all the black guys around the table are nodding their heads. Yep. And I'm like, oh, well, I guess they figured this out. And he goes, and I'm like, and at one point it became clear. Why? Because the real Big Fruity got wind of it and was basically being a little menacing about it because apparently there was a real big fruity and everybody was like you don't want to fuck a big fruity right

because he might shoot us or something and i realized like my experience is so divorced that i'm imposing my sort of like white i guess you know sort of um i don't know liberal sort of white i guess you know sort of um i don't know liberal sort of projection of what is appropriate in fact guilty conscience yeah and and but there was all sorts of things like we would do actually like a prayer circle before the show which was awkward because you don't do that on white shows and i don't you know pray to christ like you did it though right well I would hold hands just you know I was like looking around like you know and like you know please Jesus let us be funny today I'm like you know I just feel like in the event that Jesus is really up there I'd put a couple of things above that yeah you know in terms

of import but so But it was fascinating. And then that ended. What happened with that show? It went eight episodes. Did people like it? It got very well reviewed. And then it just didn't go anywhere because it was, I think there was just so much hype around it. And they got afraid.

They got really afraid, I think. To keep pushing? Yeah. I mean, I think they just uh i don't keep pushing yeah i mean i think they just i don't really know i mean you don't really you know as an actor in those situations you just sort of get a sense of what's going on but that you know that was basically it after that i did about eight other pilots um and i had you, I had very big deals. And I was like, you know, because I was reluctant.

And that's like, if you're someone. Did you give a fuck? I mean, because that sometimes has it like where you just sort of like, all right. Oh, no, no. I was like actively like, I don't want to go out to L.A. Like there was a situation like Guy Island was. I mean, you know, I started doing pilots that I thought wouldn't go. And I made a lot of money that way. But you really did.

It was really because they wouldn't go. You get offered these things, and you're like, this is easy money. Easy money, and it's not going to go. And, you know, I was caught up at that time of, like, you know, the school that we came from a little bit was, like, it's immoral to do something that's not funny yeah you know what i mean and i don't want to be garbage i was very ambivalent about that too yeah and i think after after the show i put that money into i i spent a lot of that money on making who's the caboose you came back to new york and it was all based on uh it was based on basically what had just happened to me over the past year. It's very funny, too.

But you're also like, you know, at that time, I don't know when that started, but you were getting involved in the work of that, what's his name? Well, not Cassavetes, but Carney's. It was Cassavetes. Well, Cassavetes. And Carney's is a scholar, Cassavetes scholar. Yeah. And you really were sort of, after you did the comedy lab, your interest in independent

film became, you know, deeper. Yes. And I think, and I think like, you know, Cassavetes became sort of a model for me in that he would, like, make his money in Hollywood. Like, he did a TV show. I don't know if you ever saw that. Like, there was, he did a TV show that was like a jazz PI. And, I mean, it was clearly something that, you know, he may have enjoyed it and not, but he was making his money and then spending his money on his movies and i'm like oh this is a model for me um and how many movies did you make you made who's the caboose which is great i mean who's the caboose and then the next thing i did was beat

cops but that based upon who's the caboose um i made you know like you shot a pilot for for conan's company was that cops we did beat cops twice right and the first time it was for studios usa and then conan's company uh basically bought it right we did it again for fox which movie did i play the the hasidic oh that was a bad situation oh the bad situationist yeah so that was the second feature that was the second feature and that one didn't work out so well it didn't no are you being facetious well no i just i remember that scene was funny oh yeah that scene was really funny have you not seen the movie i have seen it oh well it was based on uh i was pissed about the election right and i had had a character

that i had been doing lieberman's? Yeah, leading up to the election. Yeah. Joe Lieberman's son. Yeah. Who was a tennis pro in West Palm Beach. But you made that up. Yeah. Right. I mean, I think I found out later he had a son who did crew or something.

Right, right. But it wasn't. And I didn't like Joe Lieberman at all at the time. I know. You're obsessed with him. I was obsessed with him. I was pissed about the Supreme Court decision. Janine and I that night stayed up all night to watch that. I think Eric Slovin was there and I started taking

photos of my television obsessively for the next month and a half. Of Joe Lieberman? No, of the recount. Oh, yeah, right. And I was pissed about the Supreme Court and I think that's when I think things sort of turned for me and i think that's when i think i you know things sort of like turned for me and i wrote that film we shot it it ended with a uh with joe lieberman's fake son on the roof of his building after being inculcated by some oh that's right some religious zealots to commit a terrorist attack right which is what your scene was right um and uh he was on his roof with a bazooka aiming at a building in new york city

and uh i was eight weeks into editing when the planes hit the towers and suddenly the idea of religious zealots promoting terrorist attacks in new york city against buildings against buildings and blowing up the post office and taking over a theater with shivs which had happened in russia like days after that uh didn't it turned out to be not that funny so it took me about six to eight years to finish that movie but um and i don't know that movie is sort of a mess and it's i've got a lot of dvds sitting in my basement right now a lot of dvds that movie sitting in my basement. Yeah. But, but like,

so like, all right, so after, we don't need to tell the story of Guy Island, but you did all these different, you know, pilots,

you made a lot of money and then you made the first movie, but then like, we both get sort of corralled into Air America and then. Well,

I was doing, I, I directed Busey. Well, that's right. The Busey on Comedy Central. Yeah. I directed that. How many episodes of that did right. The Busey on Comedy Central. Yeah. I directed that.

How many episodes of that did you do? 13. And that was difficult. I mean, that was difficult. He was a difficult guy to work with. Yeah, I would say so. Yeah. I mean, they were both-

What was the name of the show? I'm with Busey. Yeah. So you were still, you were pretty entrenched in doing something funny that was original and unique and independent. Oh, and then I did pilot season after that. The show yeah which i played a manager yes and that was the sequel to who's the caboose trio had bought it and which was awesome about that was it was a sequel to a movie that no one literally no one had ever seen it was funny because you know they i remember they put

all those episodes up it was good and you shot it like you're really hung up on you were doing like that guerrilla shooting technique, you know, before. Like you can do that with any camera now, but not then. Who's the Caboose was the first fictional non-multimedia digital video to film. And everybody was like, why are you doing it on video? That's stupid. And then three, two years later, that's the only thing, you know, that exploded. We had the first camera from Sony. Right. stupid and then three two years later that's the only thing you know that anyone exploded yeah we

had the first camera from sony right and then uh pilot season was shot like was like the office before the office right i remember i mean because for me it was like albert brooks real life was the and um uh sherman's march by ross mckellwig you know that movie yeah sure it's great i mean the opening of who's the caboose is almost identical to sherman's march he goes down to new york they're going to do a documentary on one thing and then all of a sudden it goes a different right right and um and so that was the shooting style and part of it was because i knew all these comedians who uh were very funny and i was shooting with video at the time and you know this was around the time of dogman 95 do you remember that was vinterberg and those guys

and i was just thinking like you know i know i'm not creating a scene you know and then some would argue this is not cinema, but I'm capturing a reality. And so the scene would happen and the cameras would work around the scene rather than the scene. So there was no marks. Right. You know, I mean, we would do the rehearsal and the camera was really important for this. Cameron was really important for this. And I had a really good DP who also shoot, who I liked because he understood the rhythms of what was going on in front of him.

Right. And I wanted it to be, you know, I was calling it faux verite at the time. Yeah. To nobody because nobody gave a shit about what I was talking about. Yeah. And it was really just about creating a reality and then having the cameras

captured. Sure. Um, and you know, using jump cuts and stuff like that. And I did that with beat cops a little bit too, because it was sort of like, you know,

that's when like homicide was happening. I'm like, we can do sort of a comedy homicide thing. And you were also doing acting independent films, right? If you, I was doing a little bit. I was at last stop.

What was it? Next stop. Wonderland. Nextland next stop wonderland and you did uh some uh animated stuff you're you're on bobs burger still right yeah you did home movies with uh with what's his name yeah uh lauren yeah yeah yeah he's great yes that's a lot of fun but it's so interesting because you know you did a lot of shit well you know janine called me and said you know i in in in 2003 sharpling this is before air america let me do two hours on on the best show at fmu do the majority report because i was really pissed about the fucking war and janine was going on tv and she was the only person you know she was the only person who was allowed to go on tv to talk about this shit i was like this is you know i was mad i was really mad she called me and said like they're starting a

liberal network i mean i remember calling you after the first meeting i had with the people and and at the time i thought like i'm already spending a couple hours a day reading blogs yeah and uh this i'll do this to the election. And when I was doing it, you know, and I was writing pilots too during this time. Right. You know, for network. And, you know, so I was making some money off of that too.

And I just finished the pilot season. And I remember we started, I guess, in 2004. And pilot season, I think, you know, came on in September of 2004 on trio. And then of course, like as soon as we made the deal with them, they basically announced like, we're not going to exist in nine months.

I mean, that was sort of, there was at one point, somebody in the globe wrote a piece about me, uh, right around when my book was going to come out and entitled it. Uh, failure is an option.

And to a certain extent, like that theme has been there uh you know where it's like i am incredibly lucky yeah i am this is my luck is not quite you know it's like i mean there there's you know because i am incredibly lucky yeah and then there are other times where i don't have luck and there's other times like i you know i walked away from a lot of shit that i probably in retrospect some of those decisions may not have been the best yeah um yeah but i i mean it's just sort of interesting i guess timing is one thing but like so so really the the impulse to to get thoroughly involved with politics was just pure outrage at at the administration in the war just administration the war i was mad about the 2000 election i mean i was mad that the media was

not talking about what a fuck because you know i had been raised by a pack of lawyers yeah and like the supreme court like the legal institutions you know as far as i was concerned when i was a kid like there's there's only two ways to make money yeah it's either you're a lawyer or you do something that's not right and because the law was like a like a priesthood like it's part of the fabric of society and what happened that supreme court was was just like i think like the entire legal establishment was in a state of shock for the year and um with the 2000 election yeah and in fact there was news week the first the the second week of september of 2001 the cover was going to be about this huge fracture on the supreme court and of course they never ran that that cover story because 9-11 happened but uh and i was still like it was i

just couldn't believe what was going on the fucking country and i used to call into talk radio out here when i was doing like pilot season or bucey show and just you know fuck with those guys the righties yeah yeah because they're idiots i mean you know nobody would ever question them and i would just come on and i had been reading quite a bit at that time online. And I thought that maybe I would leave it. And I would start, you know, I still had both feet. And there was like a couple, like I think one or two movies that I said, no, I can't do because I can't walk away from this in the middle of the election. Right.

And then, you know, I was still writing shows and whatnot at, you know, while I was at Air America. And the last one I wrote was for amc like only two years ago it was about air america right that's right i think what happened was like once i got used to the idea of i used to spend months on 30 minutes of programming like you know shooting it writing it editing it right and now i'm spending hours prepping for three hours of programming and it's immediate and it's immediate and it was a hard thing to adjust to but it's relentless and it's exhausting in some ways but i feel like you know it gets my mind engaged more yeah um i mean i you know it's not the same thing as it was you know 10 years ago

um there's different things that interest me about the same thing as it was you know 10 years ago um there's different things that interest me about it but i can't but you do a podcast every day three hours a day no it's about um it's about it's you know the the free one is about 45 minutes and then i do a little more for another yeah another hour for for the premium yeah and do you find that like do you feel satisfied i mean you know it's hard to go from like you know we're doing radio you've got like literally hundreds of thousands if not billions and you and janine were great yeah and there was a freedom to it and there was a excitement to being part of air america even though it was such a train wreck i mean me on the morning show i was sort of detached from what was going on during

the day because we were out. I mean, you know, by we were six to nine and by 10 o'clock we could barely talk. So, you know, we're just exhausted. But like, you know, initially it was pretty exciting. It was incredibly exciting. I mean, and I mean, I remember in some time in the fall. You did the funniest thing that fucking night. With the laryngitis?

That was the funniest thing you ever did to me. It was like, it was the big, what was it? The launch party. Yeah. And you basically, you know, they were introducing each of the shows and we all got to say something. And you get up there and you got your bow tie on. And there was like a packed house and they got a lot of press. I mean, Al was one of the biggest political voices on the left out there.

He and Michael Moore at that time. Sure, sure. And you got up there. What did you say, though? You get up there, they introduce you to the show. I just said, like, I'm very excited to do this. I'm sure my voice will be fine by tomorrow. But it was something about, like, we're going to show them the liberals have a voice.

Yeah, something to that effect. It was funny, man. But, yeah, it was something about like, we're going to show them the liberals have a voice. Yeah, something to that effect. It was funny, man. But yeah, it was very exciting. And I remember being in a hotel out here when Trio, when pilot season launched. And they had like a press event. And there were big like, you know, pictures of the show. And they were running it on the hotel cable. Oh, yeah. And I remember running it on the hotel cable. Oh, yeah?

And I remember being up in the hotel room, and it was very exciting to have a show that you've written, you've directed, and acted in, be on TV. It was a small outlet, but it was very exciting for me. And then Atreus, this blog, Eschaton, this guy Duncan Black.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember that guy. And I had read him so much yeah he mentioned me in a post yeah and it was like oh my god this is like like i'm watching my show on tv and looking at my i think i have a computer like a picture i took of my computer right and i was just like, this is it. This is the pinnacle for me. Hey, Trios.

I wonder if I can keep this balancing act. And the answer was no. Yeah. No, it all fell apart. But it seems to me that we just did an episode of my show, and we had a good time, and it was funny. It was really fun. Yeah, it was fun. And you have all this.

You got a head full of ideas about you know how to shoot things and do things how much of your you know lack of engagement in it recently in earnest is just sort of a fear a fear of like you know like i mean do you really not have time i mean or do do you really just sort of don't feel like you can express yourself in that way or it's not necessary there's something more urgent it's hard it's really hard to go from something that is so literal that is so literal and so you know the idea like i'm like when i know i mean like there's something very immediate about it but but to make to have your brain go in those two different directions like on one hand like you know we're talking about the the king v burwell scotus case which is not amusing to anybody right and but i want to know like specifically like i i i need to know like how how are the subsidies paid when the irs calculates it how are they paid what percentage is it you

know what point do you get it what are the implications you know how many people are going to be disenfranchised and not going to be able to buy insurance and if they do how is that going to create like a death spiral with the insurance industry because you you you have a risk pool that's going to change and all this stuff and then to sort of like okay i'm done with that now i'm going to write a story about like what happens if these two guys get up to crazy hijinks it's not like i have a problem with that it's just like my mind you know when you're a comedian it's like you need to immerse yourself in it. And when you're doing like a show or whatever, you're creating like a whole new set of physics that exist only in that world. Right.

And not in this other world. They have to be logical within the physics of that universe you created. I get it. Yeah, yeah. And to cross those two universes, it's hard and, you know, I got a two-year-old. Right, but do you, like, look, I'm not here to talk you out of the,

you know, fighting the good fight because I'm a coward. If this is an offer to do a regular part, we can talk, we can negotiate. No, but like, do you, like the frustration of the message falling on deaf ears, the sort of like lack of any really cohesive left in this country and the lack of that dialogue?

I mean, not only are you hammering up against, you know, your own frustration and taking it upon yourself and maybe not making the kind of livelihood you want. But, you know, the frustration of the dialogue not being there in this country has got to like just make it even worse yes is it worth it the only thing that um mitigates that level of frustration is that uh you know that like we're not getting anywhere the left has sort of fallen apart in many respects the only thing it mitigates is that i feel like we're all fucked because of climate change anyways so you don't believe in god but you believe that uh and that there's a faith in that i mean no that's i mean that is frustrating it's very hard like you know and and to a certain extent it takes a certain amount of rationalization right you know before it was like when you're on like a big platform you can say like we can actually move the dial like you know at one point we shut down the the phone banks

at the new york times in washington because you know i was pissed about something and you can mobilize people what i do now is like i have a a different part in the cog you know in the machine and it's like the audience i talk to are you know some of them like run important organizations right and and and and some work on on other shows you know like i mean you know a lot of the daily show people i know yeah listen to the show because i get a call occasionally like right hey this thing you were talking on about today do you want to you know and i'm like what what i'm explaining something to somebody who's going to write it for you know the daily show and it's going to get or give an idea as to

like you know what they should focus on or something then i'm doing something yeah you're part of the the conversation and you're making you have influence well i thought the thing we did the break room thing despite the fact that i was uh you know kind of in bad shape we did a lot of funny shit on there that was pretty important. We did great shit. And if you had listened to me, it would have been very successful. Yeah. I mean, that's probably another story for another time.

Oh, definitely. I mean, I was saying- Listen to you what? Well, I was saying that we should have made an, we should have tried to do a successful internet show rather than 300 pilots for a TV show that was never going to happen. That was my argument at the time.

We don't have to get into how you were, you would refuse to listen. I don't know if I refused. I just say, Oh my God, you refused. All right. Are we good?

Yeah, I think so. Thanks for coming. Thanks for having me. Did you feel it? Did you feel the love and tension that Sam Seder and I are known for? We're going to do things together again, I feel it. I don't know, maybe not.

I don't. We'll see. Go to WTFpod.com. Check the new tour dates at WTFpod.com slash calendar. I've added dates in Minneapolis, Chicago, Portland, New York area, Cleveland. Go. WTFpod.com slash calendar. Do whatever you got to do on that site.

Thank you for listening. And I mean that. I do. You changed my life. It's like you wake up in the middle of the night. Yeah. And although it's like one of the scariest things ever. Yeah.

To wake up in the middle of the night and see two little white kids standing at the edge of your bed. It's some creepy shit. It's just creepy. It's creepy. Because there's a moment where you're like, what the hell? What are these crazy little white kids doing at the foot of my bed? What did I do? Yeah, right. Right. What kind of horror movie is this?

What is this? And then you go like, oh, they're mine. Oh, shit. They're my kids. Mark and Bert are in this big fight scene out at the pool. He says, you don't look good. You've been up for two days. You've been doing blowout and everything else. He says, I haven't been up for two days. And Bert said, nevertheless, you don't look good. You've been up for two days. You've been doing blowout and everything else. He says, I haven't been up for two days. And Bert said, nevertheless, you don't look good,

and I'm not going to shoot you this way. And so every time Bert would say nevertheless, I kept noticing something happened over Ricky's face. I said, what's going on? And he said, I can't. I'm almost going to laugh. I'm suppressing laughter when he says nevertheless. And I said, I can't. I'm almost going to laugh. I'm suppressing laughter when he says, nevertheless. And I said, why?

And he told me this great story of being at a football game where this woman is being introduced to sing the national anthem. And her name is Helen Forrest or whatever it is. And they said said now To sing The national anthem Helen Forest And somebody in the stand Screams

Helen Forest Sucks cock Yeah And the announcer says Nevertheless I went outside And I went into The courtyard

Of Rockefeller Center And Whoops I'm getting emotional. I called my parents and I said, I'm going to be on Saturday Night Live. And it was really exciting. I never cry when I just, you know what?

It is a beautiful story. And sometimes I forget that. You know, I'm crying. Because it is like cool to achieve something that you've always wanted and to do it kind of on your terms. Yeah. To call my parents, like, they were just so stunned. Like, we were all so stunned. Just, I came from, like, this fucking haunted house with these two artists with the woods on fire.

And just, like, had this one dream and went to college and didn't become an asshole and to just call them and make that phone call. Right. Honestly, I forget about that. Yeah. I wrote a song with Mick Jagger. There was a sketch for the song and I was helping him write lyrics. Yeah. And it was just me and him sitting in his dressing room.

And he said, all right, what rhymes with drink? And there's a long pause and i said brink and he went now and then there's another long pause and i went sink and he went yeah and i was like, motherfucker, is this how you write songs? It was great. Hello. Hello. Mick. Hi, Mark. How are you, sir?

I'm good. How are you? The last time I saw you live was in 1981 at Madison Square Garden. Whoa, that's a long time. You must come more than once every 30 years. I know, Mick. I'm going to. Well, you know, Keith, I don't even know what to say. This conversation might have changed my life.

Not again, baby. Boomer lives! You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Boomer lives! region. See app for details. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talked to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category,

and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative.