WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 604 - Terry Gross

Episode Date: May 20, 2015

The tables are turned on one of the world's greatest interviewers, when Marc sits down with Fresh Air's Terry Gross in front of a live audience at the BAM Opera House in Brooklyn. The voice of NPR and the mind of WTF go deep into Terry's past to examine the life of a person who is so familiar to millions and still very much a mystery. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get an ice rink on Uber Eats. But iced tea and ice cream? Yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats. Get almost, almost anything. Order now.

Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. Calgary is an opportunity-rich city home to innovators, dreamers, disruptors, and problem solvers. The city's visionaries are turning heads around the globe across all sectors each and every day. They embody Calgary's DNA. A city that's innovative, inclusive, and creative. And they're helping put Calgary and our innovation ecosystem on the map as a place where people come to solve some of the world's greatest challenges.

Calgary's on the right path forward. Take a closer look at Calgary calgary economic development.com All right, let's do this. How are you? What the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fucking ears? What the fucksters? What the fucking knots and uh you what the fuckadelics how are you that's that is enough of those names for today i am mark maron this is wtf uh welcome to my show i'm why am i nervous i'm just recording the intro to this show and i'm getting all nervousy because today as some of you know is uh is is the day that i post my interview with Terry Gross. I know some of you heard the NPR version. That's 45 minutes, beautifully edited. But our version is the full expanse of interview running almost 90 minutes of me and NPR's fresh air host, Terry Gross.

The best interviewer in the country. The best. She's the best. And it was an honor for me to be able to interview her and to have that opportunity. And it was incredibly exciting, but a little nerve wracking. But ultimately, one of the best live experiences I've ever had. We did this interview in front of probably about 2000 people at the Brooklyn Academy of Music at the opera house. That is the Howard Gilman opera house.

And it was pretty incredible. I have a tremendous amount of respect for Terry Gross. She is an amazing broadcaster. She's an amazing interviewer. She's compelling and intimidating in a way when you listen to her but she's thorough and great and and really is the most effective and and beautiful interviewer of people on the planet that's and that's the truth i don't know how much npr uh fresh air you listen to but if you listen to it she is one of the most comforting voices in the world, and you just can't stop listening to it.

It feels like it's been part of my life, her voice, for almost half my life. Anyway, I get an opportunity to interview Terry Gross at this Radio Love Fest event. I didn't freak out, but it's tricky to interview somebody one-on-one in a live situation. How do you get a candid conversation? How is it going to work with the audience sitting right there? But I got to be honest with you. I got to the event. I met Terry, who I'd never met before. I'd never seen before. Really, I've seen a couple of pictures of her. I actually did a bit of research, but oddly, there's very little about her out there because that's the way she likes it, which made it even more compelling to me, which means that

I wasn't going to, if I heard anything that she had talked about before publicly, I would know exactly what it was. And I know all of it because there's so little of it out there. So as a conversation, it was great because I knew exactly what was out there, all of it. And I didn't know how she would be. You know, she's a pro. And I don't know if I'm a pro. I don't do it the same way she does. But I got to tell you, man and women, it was one of the best experiences of my life it was a highlight it was

a highlight of the life folks i i don't think i'd ever been funnier in a conversation than i was that night i i was very uh respectful of terry i i got a sense you know and it's hard when you're doing in front of everybody i i knew where the sort of, I grew to learn where her personal parameters were and when she meant that was it, that was it, you know, that we're not going to do anymore. I got a sense of her. And we remained very connected and very focused throughout the entire conversation. And it was just, it was mind blowing. It was me interviewing the best interviewer there is. And I had a great time and I felt like we had a great talk. And it was sort of jarring for me to, you know, when you feel something needs to come

to a close at the end of that, there were things coming out of my mouth that I surprised myself. Like, I'm not blowing smoke up my own ass here. I'm just saying that it was just so easy and so effortless to have a conversation with her. And then to feel the warmth and respect that was coming out of my heart at the end there was really overwhelming. And it was a very unique and singular experience. So I hope you enjoy this. a very unique and singular experience.

So I hope you enjoy this. It's sort of a big week in a couple ways because another interviewer is retiring who also had a profound effect on my life. You can hear me talking to Terry and engaging in that amazing conversation we had. And she is amazing. And David Letterman is also one of the great broadcasters and interviewers. And I certainly didn't have a one-on-one,

really that much of a one-on-one relationship with him. But, you know, he changed my life. And I got to be honest with you. I watched a few of the episodes of him, the farewell episodes, which were touching. But for me, it's a very personal, weird experience to watch him go. And I haven't watched him as regularly as I used to. But when David Letterman came on the scene, when his show started, I had to watch it. It was like he was the most abrasive, intense, hilarious person I'd ever seen on television.

The thing of David Letterman was awe-inspiring and hilarious. And by the time I started doing comedy, Carson had sort of really... I was not going to be on the Carson show, but the Grail was really doing stand-up on David Letterman's show. And that was a big deal. And a lot of my friends did it, and I didn't know if I was going to get to do it. But when I finally did it, I guess it was probably 1999, maybe the first one. It was still one of the most exciting and important nights of my life was to appear on that show. It was the most important thing you could do as a standup comic at the time.

You know, just even if it didn't, it wasn't about selling tickets or it wasn't about anything. It was just, that was what we were working for. We were working to be on the David Letterman show. That was it to do, to do our five minutes on Letterman or maybe six and a half. It was then was, it was, was the thing to do. That was a sign of success. And I'd seen a lot of people do it before me, you know, Todd and Louie and Todd Berry and a lot of my friends,

but when I finally got a chance to do it and I went out there in my silver suit that I bought the day of, the day before at Calvin Klein, I still loved that set, and the feeling I had walking onto that stage was one of the, again, the highlight of my life, and I think Dave,

you know, I did it, I think I did stand up on there two or three other times. And then I did one that I got to do panel, sit down next to him and talk to him, you know, last year before he announced his retirement. And it was, again, one of the most exciting things in my life was to sit there and look at Dave and talk to Dave and have him laugh. And it was the best. And I'm just so happy that I had that opportunity. And I'm so happy that we all had Dave for so long on TV because he's the best broadcaster on television. Really, the best.

And he was the funniest talk show host and really the best at that as well. And we're going to miss him, but he had a good run. Okay, so now let's go. Let me try to set this up a little more effectively. I opened this event on the offstage mic. I let Terry sit out there, and I come on the backstage mic, and it becomes self-explanatory.

But when you do Terry's show, she's never there. You're always on ISDN. You're always sitting alone in a studio and then you hear her on your headset. So that's sort of how this starts to get it going in a lighthearted and fun way. Enjoy. This event was part of Radio Lovefest, which is a partnership of BAM and WNYC, listener-supported public radio. You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no,

you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats, but meatballs and mozzarella balls, yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats, get almost almost anything. Order now. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. Calgary is an opportunity-rich city home to innovators, dreamers, disruptors, and problem solvers. The city's visionaries are turning heads around the globe across all sectors each and every day. They embody Calgary's DNA. A city that's innovative, inclusive, and creative. And they're helping put Calgary and our innovation ecosystem on the map as a place where people come to solve some of the world's greatest challenges.

Calgary's on the right path forward. Take a closer look at CalgaryEconomicDevelopment.com. I'd like to thank everyone for coming. Let me start by describing this situation to the audience. What's happening right now is what it's like for almost every guest that Terry talks to. Terry's in Philadelphia and most of the time the guest sits alone in an NPR studio wherever. I've done fresh air twice, once from Texas and once from New York City. You were sitting alone, waiting in a studio.

Then you hear a voice in your headphones and it's Terry, so I thought she might like to know what it feels like on the other end. Hello Terry. Hello Mark. Hi, yes, this is Mark Maron and I'll be doing the interview with you. Okay. This interview is for a live audience that is sitting right in front of you.

I see that. We'll also be heard by the listeners of Fresh Air and WTF with Mark Maron. Are you familiar with those shows? Yes, I am, Mark. Thank you for asking. Well, great. So, look, we're recording.

We're not live. Well, we're live for 2,000 people here, but that's it. So if you start talking and then think of a better way of saying something, just back up and say it again. Just make sure you start at the beginning of a sentence so we can make a clean edit. Now, everybody in the audience, please stay quiet when she does this, okay? It's going to seem a little weird, but just hang on, it will all make sense. Also, if I get a fact wrong, Terry, about your life or work, I'd appreciate it if you just interrupt me so I can correct it.

I will be interrupting you a lot anyway because, well, that's kind of what I do. If I should stray into territory that's too personal, just tell me and I'll drop it and we'll edit it out. Except again for the people in front of you. They hear everything, but just pretend like that they're not there. I'd prefer if you didn't walk out on the interview entirely. If that can be avoided, I appreciate it. Now, I was going to ask if you have any questions before we get started, but I guess I'm the one handling the questions tonight, so hang on a sec. Okay. Hi. You stole my lines. I did. You stole my lines. I stole your whole pre-show shtick. I'm a little nervous, but I've prepared.

I've written things on a piece of paper. I don't know how you prepare. I could ask you that. Maybe I will, but this is how I prepare. I panic for a while, and then I scramble, and then I type some things up, and then I handwrite things that are hard to read so I can challenge myself on that level during the interview. Being self-defeating is always a good part of preparation. What is? Being self-defeating.

Yes. Self-sabotage. Yes. Key. Right. So you do that? I sometimes do that. How often? I try not to do that. I do that more in life than I do in radio. Really? Yeah. Like today? Life is harder than radio. Life is harder than radio. That's true. And I find that, like, how did you get up here? Did you take the train? Did you? Car. You drove a car? There was a car. You have a car. You took a car. We took a car.

This is not the hard part, Terry. No, but I obsess about, like, say there's traffic. No, but I obsess about like, say there's traffic. Say we're leaving too early. Say we're leaving too late. I just kind of go through everything that can possibly go wrong. You do that. That's your way of preparing. That is my way of preparing.

To pretend like you have control. I think I was really brought up thinking that there's some really positive value in negative thinking. So you're Jewish? Yes. I think it's the only way to prepare, because then whatever happens has got to be better. You know that Mel Brooks song, hope for the best, expect the worst? Yeah.

That's my motto. Oh, no. But I don't hope for the best, expect the worst. That's my motto. But I don't hope for the best. I expect the worst and then whatever happens is terrific. I do the opposite thing. So this is, I guess it's sort of shocking to me because my experience with you

is only with voice. This is the first time I've seen you moving. I think for a while there, pre-internet, there was no pictures of you available anywhere. Pre-internet. Yeah, and you liked it that way. I did.

There was a period when I didn't want to be photographed, when I declined. It was a short period, but I declined to be photographed because I thought radio listeners want you to be who they think you are visually. And I'd meet people and they'd go, oh, really? There's this thing like when you're on radio and you fill the speaker, people assume, so she's tall. And really, I am so short. And so

I'd always feel like people would meet me and they'd feel just like they'd hide their disappointment, you know? Like, oh, she's kind of short. She's not really very glamorous. And so, yeah, so I thought like, let me be whoever they want me to be visually and like, that'll be fine. But is that part of the reason why you don't do the interviews in person?

No, that has nothing to do with it. But it sort of plays into that, doesn't it? Well, no, no, no. That's totally irrelevant. It's purely practical why I'm not doing interviews in person. Our studio is in Philadelphia, and we don't have the money to bring people in, and they don't have the time to come in. If you had to come to Philly, would you be on our show twice? Well, that's twice in a lifetime. So I think that, yes, I would come to Philly for you. Of course I would. You're saying that on stage, but if we made an offer

to not pay your transportation from California where you live. Oh, you're really trying to sweeten this thing, aren't you? No. Well, if you put it that way, of course. Mark just goes to whatever station he's closest to, depending on where he is, and we connect really well. But it seems to me that it's also part of the mystique as well. I didn't really know what you looked like,

but just your voice made me want to be a better person. Have I accomplished that? Yeah, I think so. I get nervous. Like, talking to you now is good. I feel like, you know, because I don't know why you interview, but for me it's to get very deep emotional needs met. So, like, I seem to be getting along with you.

We're connecting. It makes me happy. It doesn't feel difficult to me. I know you're wondering how this is going. I'm telling you from my point of view that I'm having a nice time. So am I. But when I'm in the studio talking to you, I'm like, I'm standing up straight. And, you know, I want to impress you.

Like, one time I made you snort laugh. And I was like, I win. I, like, I heard you laugh and snort, and I'm like, I'm done with radio. I can wear that as a badge of honor. But it's sort of interesting to me, somebody who is that aware of what you think people think about you or that you didn't want to be seen,, you know, your voice, you were brought up Jewish, right? Yeah. Where? Brooklyn. So where is that in your voice? Where is that in my voice? When I was growing up in Brooklyn, people used to ask me where I was from.

And so I don't. So you were born with this weird innate desire to pass? To pass for what? For something other than a Jew from Brooklyn? Well, you know, I think like when you're... Like my grandparents on both sides were from Eastern Europe and my parents grew up in New York. Yeah. And they had maybe a little bit of a New York accent,

but by the time I was born, I'm watching TV. I'm watching TV, I'm listening to the radio. So that's... I know, but my parents were from New Jersey and they haven't lived there since they were 19 or 50, and I still hear New Jersey. So you were that emotionally detached from your parents that you learned how to talk from the television?

No, I think a lot of people I grew up with didn't sound like the New York accent kind of thing. You can't even tap into it? I'm not very good at voices, at doing other people's voices. What kind of household was it, and where was it specifically? It was in Sheepshead Bay, Brooklyn, and for anybody who knows Senior's Restaurant, what used to be Senior's Restaurant, they were in my backyard. Really? On an apartment building, like a series of apartment buildings,

and yeah, and what's interesting is that I grew up in a family that thought that we shouldn't share things about the family. With the family? No, outside the family. You keep that inside. And so there was an article about me that was written for Philadelphia Magazine years ago. And the gist of the article was,

people don't know much about her. They don't know who she really is. One of the people on my staff was quoted as saying, like, she's really great. I really like working with her. I don't know a thing about her. And so my mother took the article and said, you shouldn't have told them all of this. And she said something like, I don't even want

this in my house. And I was like, mom, the article is about how like nobody knows anything about me. So it's kind of ironic that, you know, what I do for a living is try to help people share things about themselves that might be of value to other people. Did you always think about it like that, though? Before we get there, though, why were they so wary of people knowing something about the family? I mean, what, was your father running around

yelling all the time? There was a little bit of that. Yeah? How much? Well, he wasn't shy about his opinion, let's put it that way. But, I mean, among the things that I think kept them feeling like you keep things to yourself was, okay, anti-Semitism, the Holocaust, McCarthyism. My father, before he became involved with a family business,

was a union leader, like a small part of the union. Like in the 30s? This would have been in the 40s, probably. 40s or early 50s. So he was justifiably nervous on some level. So there was a lot that people weren't supposed to know about. Right. But primarily the Jew thing.

Probably primarily the Jew thing, yeah. But how would he sort of lay this down? Do you have siblings? Oh, like an example was when I was, I'm sorry, what did you just say? Do you have brothers or sisters? I have a brother. So the two of you were at home. I didn't hear you, I'm sorry.

No, it's okay. It's a little weird in here. So I thought she was just avoiding it completely. No, no, no. Like Terry Gross wasn't even going to acknowledge I said something. Maybe if I just blow past it, he'll miss that. That's how I'm going to handle this interview. The garage guy.

Can I just tell people the notes that you have handwritten are so small, I don't know how you could possibly... Wow. Good luck reading that. No, it makes perfect sense to me. One of them, it just told me to acknowledge that I'm looking at you. That says that. This one says, well, we'll get to this.

But how did he lay down the law, your father? How was this weird kind of like don't talk outside the house thing established? Well, I'll give you an example. Like on questionnaires that we get in elementary school, you'd have to fill out, what does your father do for a living? I don't know why we had to fill that out, but we did. Probably for the reasons he was afraid of. Yes, right. They were going to hunt him down.

Exactly. They were going to hunt him down. Exactly. They were going to hunt him down. So I put in millinery because my father used his, he and his brother, brother-in-law, had a company where they sold fabrics to milliners. They sold the fabrics to the people who made the hats. That's very specific and peculiar. Not a business that would be running today. No, exactly.

Because, well, those kind of hats don't even exist today. But everyone wore a hat then. Everybody wore a hat then. Did your father have nice hats? He did. But anyway, so I wrote down, I wrote down millinery. Yeah. And my father said, no, don't say that. He said, say self-employed. And like, I was a kid and I didn't understand. So what's the, why, what does self-employed and like I was a kid and I didn't understand so what's the white what a self-employed mean? That's so like non-specific. Why the hat shame? I don't know. I don't know what it was But I think he was proud. I think was he was proud He was a businessman and and that they had a family business and what did your mom do? She had been a secretary shows probably one of the last people who really knew stenography. Oh, really? Yeah, she could do that thing with the fingers? The shorthand thing. Oh,

the shorthand thing. The written shorthand thing. Yeah, yeah. But when, you know, when the children were born, she, you know, gave that up. So it was you and your brother? It was me and my brother. And he's older or younger? He's five years older, which was perfect because he got all like the new records first. You need that guy. You need that. The guy. He's the one who got the record player first. The pot. The what?

Oh. No, no, he didn't do that first, I don't think. No, no drugs in the house? I don't think he did that first. No, you did it first? Probably. That's good to know. So you had to turn on your older brother.

I think you're not appreciating the music fully. Yeah? No? With my brother? I don't know. We lived in different places for a long time. He was five years old. He went to out-of-town college. Then I went to out-of-town college.

Is he still around? Yeah, we're actually very close. Yeah, what's he do? He is a testing expert. So he was the number two person at the National Board of Optometry, which created the exams to certify optometrists. And now he is a consultant who helps people design tests, mostly in the medical profession.

It's hard to sell that as riveting. Like somewhere... I asked, but somewhere in the middle my brain went like, is this good radio? Did yours? I mean, it's interesting work. I mean, my brother's an interesting guy. I'm sure he is. I didn't mean to be snotty. Is he here tonight? Maybe we could have him come up. He's not.

So you're close with him now? Yeah. But five years older is a big deal. And you grew up like, you know, when I look at the slight age difference, you grew up in a very pivotal time of change, and things were very exciting. You were 19 in 1969 or so. Right, yes. Now, when you were younger, what was the dream? What were you doing?

When I was in high school, I wanted to be a lyricist. Like for songs? For songs. What made you want to do that? What songs? Well, it's was in high school, I wanted to be a lyricist. Like for songs? For songs. But what made you want to do that? What songs? Well, it's more like in Brooklyn, some of the audience here might remember, or they might still do it, I don't know. Brooklyn schools, public schools used to have something called Sing, where you'd put on

like, right, you'd put on a show. Each grade would put on a show at the end of the year, and you'd write your own storyline. You'd borrow melodies from Broadway shows and write your own lyrics. So I was one of the lyricists for each year while I was there. And part of the time I was in high school, my friends shared this interest in theater, and it was great. And I thought, if I could live that life, if I could live that life where there's like, there's theater and there's song and there's music and there's people designing scenery and painting it and like, that would just be super.

And then I thought, yeah, and how do you get there? Like how the hell do you get there? Right. So practically in your practical thoughts, you were like, I can't do that. I can't do that. Yeah. Did you see yourself on stage? No, not really. Just writing the songs? Yeah. Like the one was like, what's she doing?

Oh, she writes all the songs. She's in the background writing the songs. Don't bother her. But it was kind of thrilling if somebody sang a lyric that I wrote. Once I was walking down the street and I heard a couple of like the basketball players singing a lyric I wrote. And I thought like, that is really, that is just fabulous is just fabulous yeah it's great do you remember the lyric no really yeah you don't I'm lying I wouldn't tell you you wouldn't that's where you draw the line that's where I draw the line

and add a lyric that some basketball players were singing, that's what you don't want America to know about you? Yeah. You're afraid they'll judge you. Terry Gross wrote that horrible lyric. Yeah, yeah. When she was 14. Yeah. I'm not listening to fresh air anymore. You nailed it, Mark. You absolutely nailed it.

Why is that embarrassing to you? Because it is. Because it wasn't good. You were a child? Yeah. Okay, fine. What else did you do in high school? What else did I do in high school? Not a cheerleader, I'm assuming.

No, I was a booster actually. What does that mean? It means that you sit and holler in the stands. You do cheers. You get a cool jacket and you sit and holler in the the in the stands you do cheers you get a cool jacket and you sit and holler in the stands and it was you know do you get a thing no no i don't i just did that you yell the cheers and you got a a jacket you got a jacket and you would be a team sports doing that i'm totally not into that i was totally uninterested in basketball. But apparently you were happy when they sang your songs. Yeah, because those guys weren't my friends.

Right. So the fact that, you know, that they were like the cool guys, and they probably didn't know who I was, and they were singing something that I wrote that they didn't necessarily know that I wrote. Right. That was just... But you didn't say like, I wrote that. No. You just, okay. But you, so you're trying to fit in by being a booster? Is that what was going on? Well, it seemed like fun. Yeah? Yeah. So you knew how to have fun?

That's a good question. Do I know how to have fun? Did you then? And do you now? Sure, let's expand it. Yeah, it's not my, it's not, it's not probably what I'm most famous for. You know, I'm probably, you know, in some ways better at working than I am at, like, relaxing.

Right. But do you know how to have fun? Yeah, maybe. What do you do for... For fun? Go to the movies, go to concerts. How are you with... Listen to you.

Oh, you do listen to me? Thank you. I listen to you a lot. I think you're wonderful., listen to you. Oh, you do listen to me? Thank you. I listen to you a lot. I think you're wonderful. I listen to your podcast. I watch your show. I have your comedy album.

No, I think you're wonderful. I'm so glad for this opportunity to talk with you. I'm flattered and humbled. And can I get a chance to ask you a question? In a minute. In a minute. I know how that goes. I'm trying to hold the line, Terry. These are professional boundaries. I'm the questioner. Okay. But like I'm sort of, so how are you with Joy? I'm asking this because this is how all I know. Look, you know, I became an

interviewer for reasons that had nothing to do with interviewing. I ended up there. And, you know, I know what my emotional, why I do it and how I ended up here. So like right now, personally, I'm wrestling with, and I don't know if you feel this way, you call it, you say you work all the time, but you talk to people professionally and, you know, you elicit things from them and you, you, you, you draw people out. And for the reason you said before is to make lives better by, by kind of letting people tell who they are. But do you get something out of that emotionally? Because I find in my life that I'm capable of almost deeper intimacy. That was the question I was going to ask you.

Well, I'm asking you first. Okay. Yes. I just feel like I had one of these weird kind of like, yes, I'm glad that I'm on the same right track if I came up with that question that you already had in your mind. Do you? Well, it's a weird thing. You know. I'll give you an example. Like, I often ask people who have a history of illness or who are near death, because I've interviewed people who are near death, I've asked them very intimate things about facing death and about their attitudes toward death. I ask people a lot

how they want to be buried or if they want to be buried, if they prefer to be cremated. I had a friend a couple of years ago who was also a neighbor who died, and I spent a lot of time with her at the end of her life, helping, like shopping for food for her, making some food for her. And I knew she didn't want to talk about facing death. And she was really not ready to do it. I mean, to the end, she didn't want to talk about it. And so here I am talking to people who I'm not in the room with, like you said. I don't know them. They don't know me.

And I'm asking them about death. And here's my friend who's dying, and I'm not talking with her about death. There was a reason for that, and I felt it would have been intrusive in a way that it's not with my interviewees, because she was not ready to talk about it. And also the experience you were having was, you know, you were there for her. I was there to be protective and to give her what she needed, and what she needed, or at least what she thought she needed wasn't to talk about that and and so that was respecting you know respecting her because it would seem selfish if you just kept pestering her yeah right yeah like no come on tell me come on

where would you like to be buried would you rather be cremated but you don't feel like but maybe it was your curiosity uh like did you have any of those interviews while you were going through that experience with her where was it something you needed answered for yourself um i think about death you know a fair amount i'm not i'm not obsessed about death or anything but you know i mean too busy well I mean you mean part of the meaning of life is knowing that you're going to die that's part part of where you derive meaning is that knowing that life is a measured amount of time so you have to use that time wisely yeah something like that yeah but um um but I don't know if I actually did any interviews immediately in that time period when she was

dying. But by asking people about this, you know, are you curious for yourself or do you want to know how they're handling it? I mean, how much, how much of this is driven by your own curiosity for answers for your own life? Oh, a lot of it. Yeah. A lot of it. You know, people always say they want to find out what makes other people tick. I always feel like I want to find out what makes me tick. Right. And I've just like learned a lot about myself and about people in general by having the liberty of asking people very personal things. But I do it selectively. Like I ask people personal things who I think are ready for it and who can handle it. How do you determine that? Well, they're usually on the show for a reason. And often the reason is that they've written a memoir or there's someone

like you who uses your life as the material that you draw in, in what you do, comedy. Your comedy comes so directly from your life, your standup, your show, who do you play on your show, a version of yourself. Yeah, that guy. So with you, I feel like I can ask you probably anything. And you'd probably answer, and if you didn't, you'd know how to handle it. If you didn't want to answer it, you'd know how to get around it. I don't know if that's true.

Really? Well, I'd know how to get around it, but it would probably be so blaringly obvious that I was just sort of like, I don't know if I want to deal with that. I'd accept that as an answer. But would you cut that? You would cut that. It depends. What the tone of it was?

We would cut it if we were trying to protect you, but if you did it in a way that you wanted out there, but we wouldn't feel like we were violating you by putting it out there, we'd put it out there as like, you're proud to say, here's what your limits are. Have you had experience with that where, you know, you've made that call and you were wrong and you violated somebody? I don't think so. Is there anyone that won't do your show ever again or won't talk to you? No, I don't.

My producers are in the audience and maybe they can think of somebody. No, we've had publicists who said... They're sitting there going like, she doesn't. My producers are in the audience, and maybe they can think of somebody. No, we've had publicists who said... They're sitting there going, she doesn't even know. Maybe. That is maybe true. We don't tell her that. Why did you bring that up?

We've had publicists call and say, please don't run that. Yeah, and? And it's like, well, thanks for your input. It's our job to decide what to run. But have you heeded that before? Did you ever think that, you know, outside of, you know, that the publicist was doing it for a reasonable...

Well, you know, it's happened once or twice. Like once, Peter Falk, back when he was alive, told this really funny... He has a fake eye. And he told this really... What? Yeah. Okay, I'm sorry.

He told this really funny story about taking out the fake eye and it had a great punchline. He obviously was enjoying telling the story and the publicist called afterwards and said, you can't put that on the air. It's like, are you crazy? He loved telling the story. He's probably told it how many times before?

Like, maybe you're unhappy that we didn't promote your new movie enough? Or they were concerned that no one knew that he had a fake eye. I doubted it. It was just a weird request. You can kind of see that one eye doesn't move, right? Yeah.

And if he's not shy about it, why should a publicist protect him from something? Right. It made no sense. Well, yeah, I rarely get, you know, the only time people have asked me to take stuff out is when they bring someone else up or with Andy Dick that we didn't know whether there was a statute of limitations on a felony. Seriously?

Wow. So. But can I ask you a question? So a lot of your friends are comics. Yeah. Right? And so I'm assuming, assuming like when comics get together, that they don't share intimate thoughts

and talk about their lives. Yeah. But you talk to people about really personal stuff on your show. Yeah. When you're doing your podcast and you're interviewing people, do you go places you don't with your friends? You know, because it's... Well, I know what you're doing.

Do you mind? Do I mind? Yeah, if I ask you. No. No, I mean, sometimes I don't know what's socially appropriate and what isn't, even with friends. And if I need to talk about something, usually the way I do it, like if you want to learn some tricks, is, you know, if I go ahead and volunteer

some information, there's some part of the brain that's sort of like, oh, I can top that, or I've done that, or, you know, that seems weird, but I've done some weird shit you know so like I we comics do talk about life they just talk about it in sort of a rough way or a crass way but most of you know most of the comics I know you know we do talk about that stuff and and not unlike you know whoever your friends are uh you know you know how to operate you know how your friends work eventually right and you know you learn how to talk about those things with them. And you know where their boundaries are. Right.

There's no reason to... I've pushed a lot of people away by being needy and nervous. Oh, really? Yeah. You? You mean in real life or on the air? No, in real life. Do you have friends?

I do, but it's almost like theoretical. It's almost like an abstraction because I never seem to have time to see them. You have have friends? I do, but it's almost like theoretical. It's almost like an abstraction because I never seem to have time to see them. You have abstract friends? I mean, I have people who I love in my life, and I have a husband who I love very much, and we've been together since 1978. That's a long time.

The staff I work with, I mean, I work with people, like our executive producer. We've worked together since 1978. Danny? Danny, yeah. How'd you meet that guy? And a lot of people I show I've worked with for years, and they might disagree. I feel very close to them.

How could you not? You're with them more than anybody. Yeah, we spend a lot of time together, and it feels to me like a very close set of relationships. Does your husband ever talk in this tone? How's Danny? No. No, he likes Danny a lot. No. Does he, does he talk, your husband? Does he talk? Does he talk? Oh yeah, he talks, he writes, that's, he's a, I know, he's a professional writer. He's a writer, he writes a jazz critic, right?

He's a jazz critic, yeah. So he's writing about music. He writes about music and other things. Does this happen in your house? What's your husband's name? Francis, right? Your husband's name? Francis Davis.

Francis Davis. Does he say, Terry, come in here and dig this swing? No, but he does say, I really want to play this track for you yes do you have time for music no that was the next thing he says can you spare me a few minutes yeah no one of the things we do saturday mornings and when we have breakfast is we choose a record that we want to hear and you just enjoy it well while we're eating and talking and listening, yeah. Like you make, this is a routine you have? Yes, a routine, every Saturday morning. Music time?

Yeah, well, we each have our own music time too, but that's our like music together time. But do you turn each other on to music or is it like? Yeah, yeah, we play, we play things for each other, yeah. Uh-huh. And then you eat breakfast? While we're listening. While you're listening? Yes.

Does Francis ever just sort of like go, ugh, not this? You know, like, I'm making a character for your husband. I don't know. But what I'm saying, is he ever like, I don't like this one.

Here's what typically happens. He spends a lot of time in record stores looking for unusual and interesting things. So he's a vinyl guy. Our house is like, it's kind of like we're living in a record store in Lumberg. Oh, She's a vinyl guy. Our house is like, it's kind of like we're living in a record store in Lombardy. Oh, so now we're talking. So he's got, there's just stacks of records everywhere. Because I know the vinyl addiction.

Records and CDs and... So do you walk around the house going, are you kidding me? Yes. I can't get into the bathroom. It is a little like that. Oh, okay. It is a little like that oh it is a little like that so

but anyway no no no so is your house like that is your house like that is my house yeah oh no

let's stay at your house so my house is like a little apartment that's how I pictured it like every time I talk to you on the air I always picture you

like in some weird bunker surrounded by books. It's kind of like that. Like you have your own ISDN line. I don't have that. You should get that. Why don't you get that? There's probably no room for that. Yeah, right. So what do you have? So I picture you have like hundreds of books, hundreds of thousands. We have a lot of books. We have, I try not to take home. He has records. What do you have? I try not to take stuff home anymore. From the station? Yeah, because there's no room. There's just no, we're just like, we're maxed out.

Really? Are you like, wait, are you like hoarder maxed out? Are you like doing this down the hallway? Come on. What, Terry? It's getting close. No, I mean, we have a lot of stuff. Books and records and CDs.

How much time do you spend at work versus how much time you spend in the record pit? I'm usually in the office by around 8.30. In the morning? In the morning. I leave around 6. And that's every day? That's every weekday. And then my husband and I usually go out for dinner. Every night?

Yeah, just about every night. There's no cooking at home? I'm too tired to cook. He hates to cook. I mean, he doesn't know how to cook. It's not an issue. He doesn't know how to cook. No, I mean, he's just sitting at home listening to records all day.

Listening, writing, reading. Sure. Not cooking. Doing things that are not cooking. Does he shop at least? I mean,

come on. We go to the supermarket together. Why can't he do it himself? What's he doing all day? Writing, listening. All right, all right. I don't buy it. So you go out to eat every night,

and then you do the music thing on Saturdays. That's nice. It sounds like you have a nice time, nice relationship. We have a great relationship. And no children. No. And that's okay, right?

That's intentional. Yeah, okay. Yeah. Well, that gets... Speaking for myself... I don't have any either. I know you do. I don't. I mean, I know you do not. Yeah. Well, that gets, that, I, speaking for myself. I don't have any either. I know you do. I don't.

I mean, I know you do not. Yeah. I know you really do. No, I know you don't. No, growing up in Brooklyn, when I was growing up, all the women I knew were basically full-time mothers. Or they were in the few professions that allowed women at the time. or they were in the few professions that allowed women at the time, you know, secretary, clerk, working in your husband's office, nurse, teacher. And I just knew I didn't want to be,

I wanted a different life. I wanted out. I wanted out of the neighborhood. I wanted out of that life. I didn't want that life. But at that time, why do you think that was? Well, why didn't I want that life I didn't want that life but but at that time why why do you think that was well why didn't I want what was it that like looked so unappealing what did you realize at that time that many people don't even realize now I wanted I wanted interesting work I wanted to fall in love with work and I wanted to fall in love with a person and you know I'm lucky I had both. And was your husband your first love?

Um now that I really know what love is I'd say yes but but what was the other thing? Well I mean I I mean I I oh this gets really personal I mean I mean, I was married before. For how long? A short time. And we were very close. And it was a year, maybe? A year. I don't... Right, how old were you? It was a very close relationship.

Let's relax a little bit. This makes me nervous to talk about. How old were you with the first marriage? I was very young. We were still in college. Like 19, 20? Yeah, it was the era... Yeah, I was in college. Like 19, 20? Yeah, it was the era. Yeah, I was 20 maybe, 19, 20.

Where'd you meet that guy? We actually knew each other from high school. Really? Yeah. But not well. And you met him, he went to college, the same college as you? Yeah.

And this was the 60s? Yeah. And you guys, you thought you fell in love? Well, we did, I suppose. Okay. Yeah. And you got married quickly, or? We got married quickly.

I don't know. We'd already been living together for a while. It didn't seem that quick. Oh, up there at college? You know, time seems different when you're young. Like a year is like a really long time. Yeah, yeah. But you were living together at college?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We were living together. Okay. Did your parents know about that? Yeah did they were okay they were okay with it uh they were okay as okay as parents were at the time my parents weren't okay with anything i was doing then i dropped out of high school and hitchhiked cross country with him before we were married whoa we what yeah so all right so this is before you went to college or this is while we're we were married. Whoa, what? So,

all right, so this is before you went to college or you dropped out of high school? In my sophomore year, instead of going to college, we hitchhiked cross country. You and this guy?

Me and this guy. Where's this guy now? In New York. Oh, you know him still? We haven't been in touch in a long time, but.

Okay. Well, I'm surprised we happen to have him. No, he's a wonderful person. I mean, I have nothing, We haven't been in touch in a long time, but... Okay. Well, surprise, we happen to have him now. No, he's a wonderful person. I mean, I have nothing but...

He's really a wonderful person. I know, I'm just like... You have to understand that, like, you know, a lot of us have created a life for you, Terry, and this is all... This is exciting information. This is what we're... You know, we can be funny and just brush over stuff all night long, but this is exciting stuff to me.

Well, my parents, when I decided to hitchhike cross-country, they were very, very upset about it. I'm upset now. Well, now that I'm the age that I am, I think like, my gosh, no wonder they were so upset. But my attitude then was you know you're not telling me what to do right fuck you right I'm an adult right yeah right it's like you don't control me anyway yeah that's right it's 1960 whatever and you know we had nine and what do parents know like that must have been part of your brain at that time the culture shifting and

parents representing what they were representing it It sounds like your parents were, you know, somewhat progressive, but definitely middle class and had expectations. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And this was not their expectation that I would like drop out or. Was this a big deal for you? Was it against character? It was totally against character. And the fact is that I think my boyfriend wanted to do it probably more than I did because I'm really not the adventurous type. I think I'm kind of, I think I'm like intellectually adventurous. I'm adventurous in my musical taste, in my artistic taste. Sure.

I'm not a physically adventurous person. Right. I'm not, I'm a risk taker when it comes to radio. I'm not a risk taker when it comes to the outside world. When it comes to being outdoors. When it comes to life itself. So you know that about yourself now, but this must have been a fairly powerful bit of business for you personally.

It was, and it was weird. I mean, I hitchhiked rides. There was somebody who was probably just out of prison and somebody else who probably had tuberculosis, judging from how he was coughing. And in the back of a truck with probably, there were probably migrant workers and there were axes all over. I don't think they planned on using them against us, but it is a kind of creepy feeling to be in the back of a pickup truck where there's axes. And if my ex-boyfriend husband is listening to this, I hope his memories jive with mine about these rides because I can't swear to the accuracy of my memory. but we had some pretty spooky rides, and then we stayed, we stayed, we stayed, after hitchhiking to San Francisco, it's like, well, we don't have any money with us, so where are we gonna stay? So we stayed in one of those SROs. Sure. And then when we got out of the room, we realized the building. And all the people that gave you rides were there?

Sure. And then when we got out of the room, we realized the building... And all the people that gave you rides were there? Yeah, really. And the room had a sign on it saying it was condemned. And the building was soon to be closed. And like all night, there were like people just like fighting. And it was so weird. And then the people who ran it locked us in the room.

I don't know what that was about. Like I really don't know what that was about. But, I really don't know what that was about. But it was just totally creepy. But do you remember how you reacted? Were you there with your boyfriend going like, what is happening? I was just like, this is too, this is... I'm amazed at how vivid your memories are

of this major event in your life that you were perfectly willing to toss aside a moment ago. Now... I was? We were ready to blow right by this. We weren't going to be hitchhiking five minutes ago. But that's good. I feel like I'm getting somewhere. So, but it was very upsetting to me because my parents were so upset and I love my parents dearly and it broke my heart to know how much how distraught they were they tried everything they flew up to Buffalo before I left and begged me don't go on the trip on the hitchhiking thing and I did this whole I've got to do what I've got to do and you can't tell me and but my heart was breaking because it's like I don't want to hurt

them but at the same time I felt like I had to cut the string right you know and that and that if I gave in that it would always feel to them like she's our good daughter everything's under control and I just I just had to do it well I think it sounds like it was probably one of the most important things you've ever done in your life in In some ways, it maybe was. It was kind of life-changing, and it actually, it was a great experience for me in terms of my work, too, because I met people I otherwise never would have met, had conversations I otherwise never would have had, and got exposed to things I never would have how many I ate at a mission um most days because like I said we we didn't have money with us we weren't working at

the time but this was also part of the mindset of the 60s it was something you were doing something you did and you know it's not like hey mom dad so I did exactly what you begged me not to do can you lend me some money I mean there's no way we're going to do that. So we ate, you know, you're talking about being Jewish. So we'd eat at these Christian missions where everybody would be singing these like Christian songs and they'd be served day old donuts and stew. Now I understand something about that experience. I never would have understood that. So it's really one of the most instructive things I ever did. But when you were driving with these characters in these cars. I didn't talk to them much.

But they must have talked. That's all they wanted to pick you up for. I don't remember much of the conversations. But you just remember this sort of like, oh, my God, this stranger, we're in this world. Yeah. I mean, I remember feeling just kind of, this is definitely an adventure. And I feel insecure, you know, because I don't, like...

Scared? Yeah, like some of the people who picked us up, they were scary characters. Well, I don't know if you know this, hitchhiking is scary. It is scary. Well, I used to hitchhike all the time in Buffalo. Everybody did, just to get to class and get home. Back in the day. Yeah, when I was in college in Buffalo.

And I had some weird rides there, too too that, you know, kind of stupid. But I picked up. Let's follow that laugh back a little bit. What was funny there in your head? Well, I got picked up by this guy once who said, I just got to take a detour. And that's the last thing you ever want to hear when you're hitchhiking, right? And so he detours me

and he's this older guy and he detours me to some construction site or something where his friends were working and he starts showing me off almost like I'm his girlfriend or something and I thought, get me out of here. Get me out of here. And I got out of

there so but you ran away or he just I can't remember like that's where the bad dream ends like I don't remember what happened well I know it's like happy ending but you know you didn't marry that guy yeah well no but I had such good my parents had such good reasons sure no to be afraid um but but also in But I have no regrets about doing it. Right. But I mean, I think that once you got back safely and, you know, was it, did it get okay with your parents? Were they, or did you marry the guy right when he got back as part of the same momentum to sort of say, I'm my own person? I mean, we loved each other. It was a beautiful relationship. We were, you know, it was, it was good. Just didn't work out relationship we were you know it was it was good just didn't work out well you know at some point um we were living even when we got married we were living with a

group of people and um because it was it was the 60s and 70s and like it was you know people shared you know the housework and the cooking and and at some point i thought no and that's where it ended and for you or in general no no it was not that kind of thing it was just a lot of people you know hairy people probably not a lot of showering going on some

like a lot of healthy food-ish healthy food-ish but one really good looking guy who was sort of the leader Food-ish. Healthy food-ish. Yeah, yeah. But. One really good looking guy who was sort of the leader. Well, a couple of our roommates ran the health food restaurant, the macrobiotic health food restaurant. Yeah. Oh, so it was all connected.

It was all connected. But at some point I realized, you know what I really need? You know what I really, really need? I need to live alone. With the man or just out of it? Just me just so you were married in the group house yeah and at some point I realized like I I just need to be alone did you freak out like totally like I need to be alone these people no not at all not alone I just thought that's I need to find out who I am outside of the group, outside of a marriage. I was too young to be committed, is what it really was. And I needed to know myself.

And I needed to know, and I think a lot of women go through this, and I think coming of age when I came of age, and I started college in 1968, it was kind of understood like you grow up, you get married, You know, and I started college in 1968. It was kind of understood like you grow up, you get married, and you have children, and even if you have a job, that's the trajectory. And like I said before, I knew I wanted a different life, and I knew at some point that to have that life, I needed to know who I was, and without picking up on what other people wanted of me

or asked of me or projected on me or any of that. And that required just having some room totally by myself, which I'd never had in my life. And this was pretty early in the renaissance of the women's movement too. So all of this is coinciding junior senior year we're talking now like after i graduated okay um and i'd already gotten fired from my first job which was what teaching yeah what grade uh eighth grade is that what you wanted to do no it's not i know um the default it a default thing. I had wanted to be a writer,

but I found out pretty quickly that the things that I thought were great writing were things that I would be incapable of writing myself, that I'd never measure up to the literature that I loved. Did you try? Not hard enough, but trying harder wouldn't have helped enough. So it was sort of a romantic notion?

It wasn't a romantic notion. I'd always written, and writing was always important to me. I was one of the editors of the junior high school yearbook and stuff like that. I'd written lyrics. For basketball players. Yeah. And I had always wanted to write, but once I understood better what good writing was.

I mean, my husband, I think, is a brilliant writer. And, you know, watching him work, and I don't mean watching him at the keyboard, but like hearing him think through a sentence, or hearing him think through the direction of his piece or sometimes having him like sometimes if like I'm writing a speech or something as you know as opposed to like an interview or an intro I'll ask him to edit it and watching him edit me is such a learning experience for me um so and also it's uh, he's, he's, he's like the best writing teacher I've ever had. And also it's part of your relationship. You trust him to help you do your work and he bounces stuff off of you. And part of what we share is, you know, our very similar tastes in music

and writing and movies. And that's kind of the world we live in like when you were asking me before about joy like what gives me joy I'm not the kind of person who loves like parties or like mountain climbing or you know hiking or like let's go camping or you know let's have

an adventure but I love like that hitchhiking thing really knocked it out of me Let's have an adventure. But I love, like... That hitchhiking thing really knocked it out of you. Yeah, that's right. That was the end of that. Yeah, the end of that. But I love a good movie or really great writing or music, concerts.

This is exactly what I think we all hoped you were doing. We all expected this. But that's where I really live. That's what I consider to be like my home. But when you took this first major action to be alone and to sever, to end a marriage and move out of the house with what I assume got to be pretty predictable cooking and behavior. Thanks for dismissing a few years of my life that way.

I only dismiss one small part about that. I'll remember that the next time I interview you. No, but I mean, I assume there were a lot of things that went into that decision, but through most of your life, did you find yourself, you know, you know, being either, whether you grew up with it or what, but it seems like to take that type of action and, you know, to push your parents away like you do, and then to have this epiphany and leave, did you find yourself, you know, easily sort of maneuvered by other people and other people's shadows, attached other people okay well i'll tell you something i think one of my gifts is also one of my weaknesses which is i have a kind of

antenna for other people i think i'm kind of and my friends my my friends and my producers might disagree with me about this i think i have an antenna that picks up on what other people are feeling, but there's something good and bad about that. The bad thing about that is that you're always wondering like, oh, did I hurt? I think I hurt somebody's feelings. Oh, I think I said the wrong thing. Oh, I think they hate me. Oh, they just move their mouth in such a way. And I think they meant to say something bad and they stopped. You know what I mean? So you're always kind of... I know exactly what you mean. You're always like reading other people and guessing them

and feeling what you think they're feeling. I've been doing that all night. Yeah, but that's the thing. As an interviewer, I think that's a wonderful thing to do. You want to do that as an interviewer. You want to be thinking, what are they feeling now? What are they thinking now? What do they think when they go about their lives?

What's their typical life like? What was it like for them when they experienced this trauma and that guides me and in figuring out what to ask them but it also makes me very um uh nervous yeah a little insecure yeah yeah that's right yeah i i understand that well then so like you know when you you know you took that action to like i i imagine that you had a fairly deep attachment to everybody in your life at that time because your life was sort of based in that you know so when you took that action to like i gotta get out you know like it was really really hard to do so when you ripped yourself out that was so hard It was really, really hard to do. So when you ripped yourself out? It was so hard to do. It was really hard to do. I felt terrible about it.

In some ways, I think I was very hurtful. I mean, I don't think, I mean, I was nasty in the way I did it, but I think it's a hurtful thing to do. But you got to pick you sometimes. I did. And what happened? What was the feeling like? What was the year after that when you started to pick you sometimes. I did. And, um, and what happened? What was the feeling? Like,

what was the year after that when you started to find yourself, how did you gravitate towards, towards radio? What made you make those decisions? Um, and, and I'm realizing as I say everything, I keep thinking like, okay, so all the people who I'm referencing, they have their own versions of this, which might be different from mine. And I just want to go on the record as saying that, that I'm, no, that I deal with people who write memoirs all the time, and I always wonder, like, how accurate is what they're telling me? How accurate is their memory? And I'm telling you that I am being as honest as I can to my memory, and other people's memories might be different. I honestly think the only guy that might have objection is the guy that might not have had tuberculosis. He was a sensitive guy.

He was a sensitive guy. We combed this interview for people you threw under the bus. There haven't been any. But so I have to imagine that teaching for somebody with the sensitivity that you had must have been like the biggest fucking nightmare in the world. It was the worst nightmare ever. I taught in Buffalo, New York's toughest inner city junior high, eighth grade. And I came in the day after election day. I was like the second or third teacher. This would have been 72. I wanted to be the teacher who I wanted to have when I was in junior high. So I foolishly went to school dressed in my purple corduroy pants, work boots. How am I doing? And what grade? Eighth grade. Oh boy. Yeah. So you walk in like,

hey. Yeah. And they're like, oh, it was terrible. It was so stupid. Did you leave crying the first day? I probably did my fair of weeping. The first day, it got worse as time went on, because things just kind of fell apart. The first day they're testing you, then they realize how weak you are, like how bad at this you are. I couldn't keep the students in the classroom. I couldn't teach them a lesson. I couldn't do anything. Oh my God, it's so sad, Terry. It was terrible. I couldn't teach them a lesson. I couldn't do anything. Oh, my God.

It's so sad, Terry. It was terrible. You were a teacher with the personality of a substitute. I was a child. I was like 22. I was shorter than they were. And I didn't know how to be the authority figure. Why did you do that? Did you just think like, I guess...

It's the default thing. I know. Because I wanted to be a writer. And then, okay, not that. and then I spent all my time in school Basically outside of the classroom. I dropped out for a semester and then you know like my college years It was like the women's movement the peace movement all kinds of extracurricular things You know

right, including you know, there was constant, like, jazz concerts and poetry readings and, like, repertory cinema. Acid? Huh? Acid? So, I mean, there's a lot going on. Sure. And I got a great education, but it wasn't, like, so much in the classroom, and when it came time to, like, so what's your life going to, what's your career going to be? It's like, I don't know. I'm an English major. I don't know. Sure.

Sign me up to teach. And I didn't feel called to teach. I didn't feel like I'd be a good teacher. Right. I didn't really want to teach. How long did it last? Six weeks. Oh, wow.

I got fired. You got fired in six weeks. Was it one of those firings where they're like, we don't think this is working out, do you? Well, oh, God. First of all, I just want to say, you know, people say, there's no way of firing teachers. They fired me. I'm living proof.

Well, the principal, this is like a really chaotic violence school. And like one day the kid, one of the students took out a knife and dropped it just to see, what's Ms. Gross going to do? What did Ms. Gross do? Ms. Gross watched. Ms. Gross acted like she was in a movie and she went, oh, kid just dropped a knife. I don't know

what to do. Wow, you had a lot of authority in that room. Yeah, no, exactly. I felt like they'd written this really interesting movie and they cast me in it and they forgot to give me the script. I had no idea what to do. So thank God you got fired. Thank God I got fired. But I got fired. So like they're grading me. They're grading me. And they said, the guy was the principal, was from a small town school who just moved. He had no idea what he was doing. You were in Buffalo.

Which added to the chaos. So they're grading me. It's not working, blah, blah, blah. So they're grading me. This is my outgoing thing. It's like, okay, you're from New York City, so I'm going to give you a high grade in culture. And they gave me below average in dignity and self-respect

or something. And I thought, like, what the hell does that mean? Like, who is measuring this? But this is the kind of thing my brother could intercede and say, exactly what are your criteria for measuring dignity and self-respect?

Because my brother knows bullshit when it comes to an evaluation question. It seems to me that the way you were feeling in general in terms of your sensitivity, the lack of self-respect and dignity might have just been a misread of your fear and insecurity. Well, sure. Yeah. And also, what gets self-respect in inner-city school was not something that I had no in other words right you have to be tough you have to like be the authority you have to draw the line you have to meet certain challenges I'm the opposite I'm kind of like you know shy and introverted and you know

yeah what do you want self-deprecating Like, how does that go over when you're teaching? You know, it's not good. All right, so now you're out of a marriage. You're out of the hippie house. You're out of a job. You've tried the drugs. You know, your parents don't like you. I might have gotten fired before I moved. Oh, wow.

Yeah, because I think I got fired first and then I moved. So everything, that was a shitty month. No, that's the best thing that ever happened to me, getting fired. Right. That was a high point. Oh, good. Yeah, it's like, thank you for liberating me from this position. I really hated every second of it.

But you might not have done it on your own. No, no. I wouldn't want to be a quitter. Right. So now here you are alone. And when did you become empowered in the sense of like thinking like I want to be, you know, on radio. I want to have a voice like that. I mean, what moved you towards radio? So this was maybe when I was, this was when I was still living with a group of people.

And one of the women I was living with was going group of people and one of the women I was living with was going to be on the feminist show. As a guest? As a guest. It's FM radio. This is the college station

which was the NPR affiliate and so I guess I was no longer teaching and I was working odd jobs but I hadn't moved out yet. So she was going to be on the radio and she came out on the radio.

Okay. She came out as gay. No big deal, except she hadn't told her roommates yet. She hadn't told us yet. Has she told her parents or anybody? I don't know. I don't know. But her lover was one of the producers of the feminist show

and was moving to the lesbian feminist show. This is 1972 or three or something 73 I guess so there's going to be an opening on the feminist show and and so my roommate knew that I wanted to get into media because that was my ambition in this point to get into media but I didn't know how so she gave me the phone number of one of the producers and said call her up and maybe they'll let you volunteer on the show and it was like an all volunteer staff. And that's how I started in radio. Wow. Thank God that woman came out, huh? Good for everybody. Was there a really, really feminist program as well?

Was there a feminist program, the gay feminist program, the really, really gay feminist program? Or did that happen later? No, that was it. That was it? Those two shows. So what was your job at first when you got in there? Well, it was a kind of group-run. So we'd all alternate like who is on

the air and who is producing and who is editing and who is engineering and everything. But the first shows that I did that I actually wrote and voiced, one was on women in the blues, like early women blues singers. One was on the history of women's restrictive undergarments, bras and girdles, who invented them and why. And one of the early shows I did was about sadomasochistic images of women in popular culture. Because I grew up with westerns, and women in westerns were always getting kidnapped and held hostage and I could always tell that there was something kind of kinky going on with this. You know, like women would always like, they would have their hands tied behind them and they'd be like wriggling around and everything.

You could always tell like, this is, you know, I'm a kid, I know this is kinky. Like, you know, so I wanted to know like... I'm feeling something, this is kinky. Yeah, yeah. Just say it, Terry. No, I was just like, I know it is kinky. Like, you know? So I wanted to know, like... I'm feeling something. This is kinky. Yeah. Just say it, Terry. No, I was just like, I know it's kinky.

So, like, why is this... Like, what is this about? Did you deal with, like, that it was male-driven? You know, it was before I had the language of, like, the male lens through which all popular culture is seen.

But you were so close. You were almost... you were right there. I saw shopping around. I couldn't find anyone who could talk about it. Did you, so you just did it? I think I basically did some really unfulfilling interviews and did some research and read some things I found. It was a terrible show.

Is that available online anywhere? God forbid, no. No, I don't think it exists anywhere. Have you tried to find that stuff? No, I have like 90 seconds left of me in that era and that's it. And that's really probably

I think there might be something archived in Buffalo. That's all I have. How does your voice sound to you? It kind of sounds like this. Does it? Yeah. Oh, so up?

Yeah, because, well, two things. One, when I get nervous, my voice kind of goes like this. And the other thing is, you know, I've gotten older. And the third thing is, listening to myself, I learn how to just kind of breathe better. I had help learning how to breathe better. And I learned how to bring my voice down a little bit more. In fact, you know, I'm not used to speaking in my...

When I speak in front of a big crowd, even if I have a microphone, I tend to speak louder. And when I speak louder, my voice changes, because I actually have a very small voice. So, you know. Do you want to yell? No. Okay. It seems to me that much of what you did early in your life, whether you look at them as good memories or bad, the actions you took one way or the other really defined you in a lot of

ways. Being sensitive to what the issues were at the time and then getting a job where you had to be responsible to those issues in radio right from the get-go was fairly, it seems, is the word prescient that I want? That was where you were going to go with radio. Now, when did you start to sort of, you know, gain confidence in your voice and learn how to take control with authority that you did not have as a teacher? Well, I felt so much more comfortable interviewing people. As soon as I started doing interviews,

I thought, this is it. This is what I want to do. Because it brought together everything I loved. It brought together the opportunity to, like like read and actually talk to the authors. You know, which I, you know, I'd love to read and I love to talk about books. I got to do that. I got to talk to people about everything. I got to talk to musicians because I've always loved music. I, you know, eventually got to talk to filmmakers and I've always loved movies and stuff. I felt like immediately comfortable doing that. I didn't feel comfortable about my voice.

So I just listened to myself selectively enough to try to learn from what I was hearing, but not so much that it would like panic me and make me think like, they allow me on the air. Like, what are they crazy? Like, don't they listen?

And also I worked with, there was a lot of peer pressure at the station there were like so many talented people at the station where i started working when they when you did something they didn't like they would tell you yeah they would definitely tell you would they tell you straight up or totally straight out uh-huh what were some of those critiques oh how bad some of our mixes were when we'd like mix music in to sound clever. Production issues. Production issues.

And then just kind of, it was boring. But it would get a little confusing because some of the people who would be criticizing us were also some of the men who were maybe still kind of uncomfortable with the whole idea of feminism. And we were a feminist show. So some of the feedback you didn't know exactly how to take it but um but it was good really you

know it was good to get tough feedback like that and and when you took this step to or when NPR took that I mean you were on the air for over 10 years before the show that everybody here knows and loves what what How did that evolve? How did that happen to where they were like, just Terry, every day, talking to people? Well, when I started the show, when I started hosting the show as a local show, it was three hours a day, five days a week.

That's a lot of time. I have to assume that part of the interviewing thing was like, all right, I can fill 15 minutes if I get that guy in here, because he never shuts up. Was any of that going on? Well, you know, I had my standards when it was a local show and I was starting were really different. Can you qualify that somehow? Well, first of all, it was a local audience, so I could talk a lot about local issues. And we edit our stuff now, so we want things to be tight. And then it was,

yeah, took a couple more minutes, we can be done. Yeah, there you go. That's radio thinking. But now it's like, no, what can I do to get you to say what you're trying to say as concise and interesting a way as possible? Well, you have an amazing staff. I have an absolutely amazing group of people that I work with. How long have you been with that producer? You said since 19... Danny and I have been together since 1978. And, you know, Amy's been on the show since 1985

or 6. And Phyllis has been there since 87. And these are the people that you... Those are the people who have been there the longest, but... Every day. You've been on the air for like 40 years. Yeah.

Well, you know, because the show started as a local show in 75. It's a long time to be doing something. At least I started hosting it since 75. But it's a long time. And now our staff is like, you know, we have people in their 20s, we have people in their 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s. So it's great. I think age-wise we're really well represented.

Yeah, but also you've mastered and defined something that is uniquely yours that has been done by many people for centuries probably. And you set the standard for what an interview is and how to put one together. Thank you for saying that. You know, on radio or anywhere. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. And, you know, you are, you know, what I think most people, you are home to most people when it comes to NPR. That, you know, your voice is, you know, more comforting than probably any voice in their lives, I would probably say. That's really nice of you to say. And I don't know why I'm tearing up. Jesus Christ. All right. Can I just say something about you?

What? I really, I just love your work so much. And I've learned from listening to you in your podcast because you're just so present. You're so in the moment with people. And you have such interesting taste you know like i i love hearing you talk about the music that you love and you know you're interested in like kerouac and that you know who herbert hunky is and you know like you know all this stuff

and you don't do it in a know-it-all way you just kind of slip it in to get more out of them and um i know i mean that in the best sense. That's what an interviewer should do. I'm just like that. And the other thing is, like, you're just no bullshit.

You know, you're no bullshit in your comedy and you're no bullshit when you're talking to other people. I don't think you are either. Oh,

well, thanks. Terry Gross. And, and I just want to say the reason why I was comfortable enough to tell you and everyone else here the things that I told you tonight is that I trust you and that you're no bullshit and I couldn't look you in the eye and not tell you the truth

thank you did you feel like this went well bullshit and I couldn't lick you in the eye and not tell you the truth. Thank you. Did you feel like this went well? I heard you ask that to, was it Alex Skarpowski? Maybe. And I thought, I'm surprised he asked that. Really? I thought it went, well, I thought you did great, I'm not going to evaluate myself. And I'm not going to ask the audience to do that either. Are you going to do it later though? I'm not good at evaluating how I did.

But I'm curious why you asked me that. If it went well? Yeah. Like what do you want out of that answer? Because I'll tell you that I thought you were great and that I said things that I don't usually say so in that sense you know yeah it went really well but but um I'm just curious why well I think because I I don't know what I do uh as I don't consider myself really an interviewer necessarily

so you are you're really good why I'm a converse I like to talk like I mean with my producer Brendan like I never say like how was the interview I always say how is the talk they it's still a talk to me you know and I and there's something about what do I want out of that I just want to make you know I want your approval, Terry. You've got it big time. You've got that big time. Terry Gross, ladies and gentlemen.

And Marc Maron, yay! I'm a fan, I'm a fan. I'm a total fan. Okay. Thank you so much for being here. We do have a few questions from the audience. Sure, yeah. Every time I ask my 25-year-old son about a contemporary musician,

he correctly assumes that I first heard them on Terry Gross. How does Terry stay so tapped in, not just in music, but across the board? How do you decide who makes the final cut to get invited? Well, you know, we have producers who spend their time looking for guests, and my producers often give me new CDs that they'd like me or downloads that they'd like me to listen to. I get exposed to some new music at home, you know, through my husband, who's always listening to interesting things and playing me things that he thinks I might like. And then I have my own taste that I'm always pursuing. We're all constantly consuming

things. And then we have this marathon meeting on Fridays in which we talk through who do we really want to have on the show. Dear Terry, have there been interviews where you felt the material or subject was beyond your scope of knowledge? If so, what do you do to remind yourself that you deserve to conduct these interviews with confidence? That's from Stephanie, and then in quotations it says, hi Mark. Hi Stephanie. Well, you know, I don't need to be an expert in things. I just need to ask decent questions. So I study as much as I can before an interview, but if it's a difficult subject, I'm going to assume most of my listeners don't know about it either, and it needs to be comprehensible to them, so I don't obsess on, oh, I'm not smart enough, or I'm not an expert in the field. Oh my god, if I didn't have my

producer, Brendan, like, I think I'd get on mic sometimes and just go, hi, what's up? You need good people around you to sometimes, I don't know if you have this experience, but like I'm a pretty quick learner, but sometimes I can't necessarily wrap my brain around something the right way. And when you get the input from, you know, somebody who does some of the research for you, somebody you trust, and they just sort of make it understandable, you're like, oh, okay, I got that. Do you ever do that? I sometimes like go over the questions with, like, I was just interviewing Matthew Weiner and there was so much I wanted to talk with him about and I couldn't figure out like, so which is the good stuff? I have way too much material. So I asked one of our producers, Lauren, I asked her like, please, like, let's just talk this over

because I don't know. And it was very clarifying. Right, how to tighten it up. How to tighten it up. I had more trouble when I was doing politics. I needed to understand things, and some things can get convoluted. And with politics, yeah, I often talk with, like, our producer Amy, who does a lot of, she does all the political stuff.

It's like, help me understand this. Cut through the bullshit. Yeah, yeah. Right? Can you say bullshit? In life? Yeah. Oh, yeah.

On the show, no In life? Yeah. Oh, yeah. On the show? No. Right. Yeah. I said it before, remember? I said that you don't like bullshit. And that's, you know. That's so weird. I was so busy being nervous and taking your compliment

that I didn't even acknowledge the amazing Terry Gross cussing moment. That was so stupid. We're going to edit that part. Where I didn't remember her saying bullshit. Make note of that. Don't fall into a hole, Mark. Stay in. Stay in. Present. What would you be doing if you weren't doing this, Terry? Oh, God, I don't know.

Good answer. You mean this being radio? Yeah, I have no idea. That's why I feel so lucky. I wouldn't be teaching. Yet. You can always teach now, I think. Well, now I could probably teach. But yeah, so that's the truth of it, though. Like, you know, when you do something for your whole life, it's like there comes a point where you're like,

there's nothing else to do. Well, I'm lucky. It's what I want to do. I mean, like some people in radio would secretly like to be writing a novel or, you know, singing a musical comedy, but it's actually what I want to be It's what I want to do. I mean, like some people in radio would secretly like to be writing a novel or, you know, singing a musical comedy, but it's actually what I want to be doing is what I do. No musical comedy for you. Oh, if I had the talent. Right.

Terry, you are my female crush. Who is your female crush? You know, so I'll be really honest. I don't think in crush terms. I just, like, I don't... Well, what woman I just, like, some, I don't. Well, what woman do you want to have sex with? I just, like, I don't, like, a lot of people go to, like, a movie and say, like, because, like, that guy's cute or, like, that actress is hot. That's not.

You don't do that? It's not... You don't do that? It's not... It's not the motivating thing for me. What is? That when I go to the movies and I see something great, it takes me out of my life and into somebody else's. No, but you're the person that correctly identified S&M and Westerns. I have a hard time believing...

All right. That you don't go to movies sometimes. I see your point. Right. I see your point. You see my point. I see your point. So we're just going to let that...

We're going to let that go. Okay, all right. What is... What do you hope your legacy will be after your career is over? Thank you, long-time listener Megan Graham. Our archive. I mean, I am so proud. We have, like, so many incredible people in our archive, living and dead.

I mean, there are so many people who are no longer here, people including like Johnny Cash, Ray Charles, and it's like, we have nice interviews with them. And I'm just so proud that those of us who work on the show managed to land people like that as guests. Yeah, it's an amazing gift that will never go away. It's a moment in time with a brilliant artist, and much of what is said is timeless. That's what I find most unbelievable. Great. This one says, I just wanted to steal the usher's pencil. Do you ever wish you had the flexibility the podcaster have in terms of content and format? In terms of, yeah. Really though, it sounds to me like you run a tight ship.

I'd want it to be equally tight, but I wouldn't want to have to have breaks for local cutaways if we didn't have to. And reintroduce guests like we do on the air. Resets. Do the reset. Because people are always coming in and tuning in on the radio, whereas if you're listening on the podcast, you're starting from the beginning.

And then going till as far as you want to go. If you reset on the podcast, people will think you have a stroke or something. And honestly, I'd love to be able to not only myself use any language, but more importantly, have my guests use any language. Like when I have a guest who's doing a reading from a novel, we have to sit like, okay, so you can't use this four-letter word. Which one? I know, I feel uncomfortable saying it in the context of this only because I don't want to have me saying a four-letter word go viral. And I know how people are about that. Do you know what I mean? Sure. You don't want a little Terry Gross. I don't want that to be a thing. What is it?

A gif? Terry does the F-bomb, you know? Or if someone's shooting it, just you going, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck. I would like that so much. Yeah. And that is exactly what I don't want. Okay.

Because I know how that game is played. It would be hilarious, though, right? It would be hilarious. But I'll pass on't want. Okay. Because I know how that game is played. It'd be hilarious, though, right? It would be hilarious. But I'll pass on that one. Okay. Yeah. But I'd love for my guests, I'd love to not have to pencil out four-letter words

when we're doing a reading from a book, or say, like, that great thing that you just said, can you say it without the expletive? I'd love to be able to talk more specifically about sexual issues and i can't you know because it's like what in particular it's not like i want to do pornography or something but it's a part of life

that we can't really talk about in the way that you can write about it or talk about it in a podcast. How much, if any, only a couple more here. How much, if any, experience do you have with psychotherapy or psychoanalysis? And how has that impacted the way you conduct interviews? It's a good question. I've been seeing a therapist. I got into this through biofeedback.

Do you know what that is? Yeah, isn't that some hippie shit no it's actually not it's it's actually empirical stuff okay and it's a way of kind of regulating your breathing in a way that dilates your blood vessels which basically produces a relaxation response sure so it's a way of learning no it's not gasping it's like slow it's slow inhaling and slow exhaling because I live in such a stressful atmosphere. With all those records around? I've always thought of myself as like feeding on adrenaline,

but adrenaline is actually very unhealthy. Draining, cortisol. Yeah, cortisol. It's really unhealthy. I know about that. So yeah, so I figured like I have to find a way to like neutralize all that cortisol. So I started doing biofeedback I figured like I have to find a way to like neutralize all that cortisol.

So I started doing biofeedback and my biofeedback teacher is actually a fabulous therapist. And we started doing like more and more actual therapy. And it's been just wonderful for me. First of all, watching her work is really great because she somehow always knows the right question to ask me. And she's just so intuitive. She's ask me. And she's so intuitive. She's so great. And I've learned so much about myself. And it's been just, like, super helpful. Good.

I recommend it. How long have you been with her? It's been three, maybe four years. Pretty new. It's pretty new. I'd always thought, like, the last thing I have time for is talking to somebody. All I do is, you know, all day I prepare to talk to people and I hear them talk. I'm going home, you know, but it's so, it's just really stubborn. It's so valuable. Yeah.

It turns out. Yeah. Good. Sounds like it blew your mind a little. It does. It continues to. All right. Question from Mark Maron. Your early podcast focused more on your guest's professional trajectory. Your interviews have evolved

into discussion around your guest's personal journeys. How did that evolution happen? Was it a change in you that brought that? Is that all one question? Yeah,

it's a lot. You're only going to focus more on your guest's professional journey. I don't know. I think that early on, right, you don't want to take up any time.

No, no, no, go ahead. I think really if you listen to the first 100 or so episodes of WTF, it's me inviting celebrities over to help me with my problems. So talking about their professional was me learning how to not be bitter and jealous and learning how to listen and be happy for other people and then to maybe ask questions like, you know, how did you get that thing? Who did you call for that?

So, you know, like... And then eventually I grew. I think that through the podcast I I did get comfortable with myself. And I had some pride about what I was doing. And I felt like I was doing something relevant with my life. And a lot of things definitely came together because of talking to people. And I did get, you know, I found some self-esteem that I never had in a very genuine way. And now I just have to stop the personal growth there before I, you know, fuck myself out of a job.

Oh, this one says, hey, Terry, how did Mark do tonight? Well, we found that out already. And please, another round of applause for Terry Gross. And for Mark Barron. Thank you. Well, that's it. That was one of the best nights of my life, you just heard. And I had a lovely time, i believe that uh terry did as

well uh it seems like she did i i listened to her intro of me yesterday and it was uh made me feel good thanks to everyone from fresh air for helping to make this happen especially terry's executive producer danny miller and fresh air's technical director audrey bentham who made this recording sound great thanks also to the team from BAM and a special thanks to Chris Bannon who got the ball rolling on this. I'm not even going to plug myself. Today it's been a long show but you can go to WTFpod.com

for all your WTFpod needs and go to WTFpod.com slash calendar for the current tour schedule. Okay. I'm going to end this like an NPR show. Boomer lives. You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. We'll be right back. region. See app for details. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson

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