WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 605 - Tommy Davidson / Phil Hendrie

Episode Date: May 24, 2015

In Living Color changed the face of sketch comedy and Tommy Davidson was one of the main faces. He talks to Marc about how the show came to be, what got him into standup, and how he almost didn't live to the age of two. Also, radio legend Phil Hendrie drops by to talk with Marc about the new frontier of audio. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category.

And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talked to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Lock the gates! all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fucksters

what the fuckadelics and that's it for today how are you doing how are you mark maron here it's my show this is is WTF, the podcast. Welcome. Thanks for being here. Got a couple of guests, I think, today. Yeah, Phil Hendry. We're going to stop by for a few minutes. And then after that, Tommy Davidson from In Living Color, as you'll recall, and the stand-up stage will be with us here in the garage to chat about this and that.

God, how are we all going to recover from that Terry Gross episode? Oh my God. That was like, that was the top of the mountain there. But, uh, but we, we keep moving. We keep doing it. Today's Memorial day. I don't know what you're up to, but I hope you're not burning yourself on a grill situation. Hope you're not, I hope you're having burning yourself on a grill situation hope you're not

i hope you're having a nice outing whatever that may be don't get too shit-faced don't burn yourself in a grill situation don't blow up a propane tank try not to drive when you're all fucked up all right be nice to your family and uh you know give give a little thanks to those who died in service of our country is really the intent of it all, isn't it? But, you know, I know some of you, it's just a day off. Why not get some meat out? Can I push my dates? Because I don't think I've told you enough that I've added dates to the marination tour.

Cleveland, Ohio on June 5th at the Playhouse Square. The Vic Theater in Chicago June 6th, an early and late show, and I will be taping my comedy special. I'll be taping an hour at the Vic in Chicago June 6th. Both shows. Come be part of that. And then on June 7th,

you can go to Minneapolis at the Pantages Theater in Minneapolis and hear me talk about how the special went. That should be a fun show. June 25th, after a little bit of a break there, you can take a vacation if you don't mind. The Capitol Theater in Port Chester, New York. June 26th, I'll be at the Bam Howard Opera House in Brooklyn, New York. June 27th, the Paramount Theater, Huntington, New York, June 28th, Count Basie Theater, Red Bank, New Jersey, July 10th, Aladdin Theater in Portland, Oregon, July 11th, Revolution Hall, Portland, Oregon, July 24th, Boulder Theater, Boulder, Colorado, and July 25th, Paramount Theater, Denver, Colorado. You got that? Go to WTFpod.com slash calendar

and check that shit out because I'm doing it. This is it. This is the last run for a little while probably. God damn, the skunk. It's weird with skunk. It smells really bad,

but you get used to it and then you start to think it smells good, right? Now let's focus here. The show, obviously, this week, Thursday night, 10 p.m marin on ifc the first two episodes have been very well received this one coming up a little gnarly it's a little gnarly i will tell you that i wrote it i directed I directed it. It's called X-Pod. It's about the fiction of me having my ex-wife on my podcast. Yeah, and we did flashbacks. So it was something, man.

I was happy to have Phil Hendry drop by. Phil Hendry, you might recognize his voice. You might know him from the Radio Cowboy episode in the second season of Marin. He's also a genius on the radio, a pioneer. You can also hear his show at the relaunched philhenryshow.com. He just wanted to chat, say hi, alert the world that they relaunched his website. So I said, sure, come over, Phil. Come over, Phil.

Let's talk. Let's talk to phil henry phil henry back what's up how are you i'm doing good like i said i was listening to the guys next door either putting on roof or a roof or a tar or yeah and it reminded me of my days when i used to work in construction uh the guys that were the roofing guys, they used roofing tar. And I believe that there's something. Something in there? I think there's like crack or it's like meth or something that those guys just start dancing on the roof at like 10 a.m. Maybe it's the heat, man.

It could have been the heat. The heat. Yeah. So our episode of Marin last year got a lot of great feedback. There was a lot of talk. Did you get a lot of great feedback? Well, I got people. I mean, radio folks saw it.

Yeah. Right. But my sense is that they thought it was kind of right on. It was totally right on. Talent thought it was right on. Right.

And the management people are still, as you know, they're talking about people in denial. Right. But radio management. You talk to radio management? I talk to them

as long as they want to talk to me. But I mean, like about that show? I think in passing on Twitter we'll have a there'll be a little exchange and then i'll realize one of the fate one of the people i was talking to dropped off you know it's the management guy the general manager guy i think the thing about that and i tell people this because i said well mark was in radio so you have the experience a little bit. I don't claim too much experience, but I was there. You had enough, man.

You were with a company, and the company was bad. Yeah. How many times do you need to have that experience? Not every job. That's what it was for me. Say to people that radio is self-destructing, and the reason is not the talent. It used to be the talent, talent, talent, talent. They always wanted to give it to us.

They wanted to say, well, if you guys did this, that. No, it's the brain trust. It's the executives. It's the industry itself. They have destroyed our business. Right. And now it's not even our business. I mean, what is it, man?

I don't know what it is. It's embarrassing. A little bit. It's embarrassing to have given 40 years of my life to what? Well, there's a transition happening, but it seems like the real talent, the people that are still hanging on to those those morning parts and those afternoon parts they're still plugging along oh yeah well i just did i just did the brother wheeze's show

is we still uh is he pulling some i guess well they got him doing like nine hours almost you're kidding well no it's like he i think his show goes from like six till noon like he'll do four hours live and then they run the first two again. Oh, I got it. It's a half a day of programming they got that old dude doing. Four hours, then he gets to take a nap. Then they got him back in there again live. You know that guy?

I know of Weed. Right? Long time Buffalo, Rochester guy. Right, Rochester, yeah. Long time upstate New York guy. Yeah, but he's got all those pictures on the wall of the rock days and the dudes that used to come through. And they asked him to emcee one of the Woodstocks, the new Woodstock.

I believe it, man. Those were the days, yeah. I mean, like that poster right there. The Jimmy Shelter poster? Who did Sonny Barger call when he needed to have his voice heard? KSAN. Did he? Yeah, yeah.

Barger was there the next day saying, you guys got this all wrong mick jagger's a scumbag my guys got set up the 60s i missed it i missed it phil well all i got was uh i got the remainder you know i got the music i got the the uh you got the stories the mythology you got the limp biscuit woodstock sure man well i didn't i didn't go to that but to that. But when I look back at my life, these are my guys. But all the music that I'm into, I kind of missed. You're into vinyl, man. I got a lot of records. That's unreal.

A lot of records happening. Do you put the needle on those vinyls? I do. I pick it up and I put the needle right on there. And you do that because of the experience to do it? Or you like the way it sounds? I grew up with it. I grew up with it.

I like the equipment that comes with the idea. It is awesome. I don't like to know that I'm part of a trend, but I'd like to think that I was ahead of it a little bit, but I don't know if I was. But I do like the experience of it. And as I get older and I have less to do, I don't have children, I don't have a wife, there's something about kind of fetishizing, ritualizing an activity that's pleasurable. You know, I can sit down. I put a record on. I can listen to the high-end speakers I have.

There is a ritual to it, man, because I remember buying records, you know, when I was like 13. The first record I ever bought was Out of Our Heads to the Stones. And I have that one. You go home. You take that wrapping off. You put the record on. And you spend the next hour or two reading the liner notes. They used to have that one. You go home, you take that wrapping off, you put the record on and you spend the next hour or two looking at that picture.

Reading the liner notes. Yeah. They used to have liner notes. Yeah. And they were written by like legitimate cats like Ralph Gleason and Neil Hefty and all these guys. Yeah, it's great.

And some records sound better than others. I do, but you know, to sit down and do it. Yeah. To sit down and listen to it. And I got some nice equipment that I like looking at.

You know, some people buy cars. Yeah. I bought some nice stereo equipment and I like looking at. You know, some people buy cars. I bought some nice stereo equipment. And I like looking at it. So you did some more acting? I did, well, F is for Family. We just finished with Bill Burr. How many did you do?

We did all of them. Six. And Laura Dern is in it. And Bill Burr is in it. And that's his show? Mo Collins. That's Bill's. It's an animated show.

It's based upon, I probably am talking way out of school. He's got producers that are going to just burn me an effigy. I have no, oh, next season. You figure the year time it takes for animation, probably sometime in the spring. For what network? For Netflix. Oh, yeah? Yeah, yeah.

You're on Netflix now, right? I am. Yeah, the first two seasons of Maron in my special is up there. Sweet. That's great, man. Sweet, yeah. Now, what's going seasons of Meron in my special is up there. Sweet. That's great, man. Sweet, yeah. Now, what's going on with the Phil Hendry empire? The Phil Hendry empire is like the Incans, doing well, just waiting for the Spanish to arrive.

No, we're doing fine. You forecasted the end of the world. Exactly. Now it's only a matter before I'm conquered. Exactly. We're taking the hearts out of virgins and having fun and frolicking through the forest. But there is a ship out there on the horizon with sails and shit,

and there's a guy with a helmet. Yeah, he's coming. He's coming for all of us. But he says all he wants is the weed, but I'm sure there's more. But what we're doing is we've got a pilot that we're going to shoot in the summertime or early fall,

which is a satire that I'm really excited about. I'd love to tell you more, but you know how this town is. And we also are... A TV pilot. A TV pilot, yeah. It's a satire based upon television. Great.

And we've got our website, which is philhendryshow.com. And did you just up, did you make it, what happened? We've upgraded the website. Oh, yeah? Yeah, we've got a real cool website now, which is, a lot of it, it was inspired by you. And I'll tell you this. I said to my guys, if you go to Mark's page, there's a big button there that says, here's the show.

Yeah, play. I said, that's what you do. This is what it is. It's not a world of techno geeks that are all going to be excited about hitting 58 links. And they go, oh, okay, so we have not as big as the button on your page, but we've got at least a button. I want my older listeners to know exactly what's happening how you do it yeah you know here and if you want another kind of a show play that one yeah and uh so we're just doing things like we have a couple of extra what i call bells and whistles which is a chat feature which my fans

seem to like to do they like to get in there and get into fistfights over oh yeah that's the internet fuck you no fuck you exactly that's it man how many shows have you gotten in the archive like well we got 20 000 hours man of shows 20 000 hours yeah and what we've done is we've opened up like 30 i know you got like a hundred or so free out there 50 50 free. 50 free. Always at all times. So we have 30, and then they go behind the paywall. And I figure that's a little bit better than seven. We only had seven out there for a while. Yeah. But, I mean, how cheap do you want to be, Henry?

Yeah. So we threw that out there, and really, I got to tell you something, Mark. That's what pays the bills, really, is the digital world. That's what's paying the bills for us. It's giving us a really good living. Thank God.

Thank God. You made the adaption. You adapted. And now all these cats are coming. You evolved. Well, you know, all these radio guys are coming. Hey, Phil, how'd you do it, huh? Yeah.

I said, because I had to, man, you know. You know, a lot of those guys, it's weird because I've seen it happen. It's like you get comfortable being coddled. You get comfortable, you know, and then you start to realize like you know that shit is shrinking up but a lot of them just still can't leave even even if their salaries are cut or they're not doing what they used to or they get moved around they're just terrified because for you know what 30 years they've been taken care of yeah because they're not i don't think and that's the difference between a guy like you and those guys or me.

We think like producers. We know, okay, here's how I want to do this. Here are the buttons I want to push. Here's how I want my studio to be. In fact, here's the business model I want to work. And they were not really ever broadcasted, I don't think. I think they were like lawyers that got a talk show, and then the money got really good. It's sort of sad, though, like some of them who are real, also there's that fear. You're in the game for a long time and you want to make the jump and i think in your heart you really don't know how many listeners you really have and and if you make the

jump you're afraid that uh fuck yes you're afraid i mean we arbitron books like you can spin that shit into anything that's like that's that's it's a lie yeah it was a little it's always been a lie so like to sort of like be this guy the morning guy in wherever and be like, all right, fuck it, I'm leaving. I'm doing a podcast. And you're like, I'm only getting 1,500 downloads. Yeah. Terrifying.

Wait a minute. How am I going to make a living of that? Where's the advertisers? And also, how's your ego going to, like, especially a radio guy, how are you going to take that hit? Yeah. You got to be a workman. You have to be a journeyman.

You have to just, okay, let's, it's starting all over again. Yeah, I'm starting all over again. Right. How did you do it, man? He's like, well, I got to be a workman. You have to be a journeyman. You have to just, okay, let's start all over again. Yeah, I'm starting all over again. How did you do it, man? He's like, well, I'm going to do this thing. No choice. Next thing you know, you got an audience. I think for us, we just charged a subscription, so we knew right away how much bread we were making. Yeah.

And you had this amazing archive that was yours. We had the archive that belonged to us. Yeah. And I got to thank, I will thank one suit, Craig Kitchen of Clear Channel, who gave us, basically said, I'm going to give you guys the archive. I'm going to work it so that we get it from Clear Channel and give it to you, which was great. That's good.

Yeah. It's the one good suit. I'm telling you. Because since then, I hear it. The one good suit. That's got to be the title of a book. That's the name of a book or it's the name of an opera. The one good suit.

But I'll tell you this. Since then, Clear Channel ain't giving shit away, man. They are holding on to everything. They have to for the big garage sale. When's that going to happen, do you think?

I don't know. I don't know how it looks. I have a hard time paying attention to things. Well, you don't have to, man. I guess. And I only do because I'm sadistic.

I mean, we're out of the... Well, yeah, you want the schadenfreude of seeing the thing topple. Sure. Fuck you. I. Fuck you. I outlived you. Yeah.

And I think what's happened is this is a talent-friendly atmosphere now. We start our own businesses. We do our own thing. The guy I was telling you about, who will remain unmentioned before, said, you know, basically we had this guy and then he split because he started his own network. In radio that didn't happen. Cats weren't leaving and starting their own radio station. but now you can leave and say thank you very much but i got it from here yeah you definitely feel like there there is a shift happening i think

they all know it and i think that's one of the reasons like you know the guy we were talking about he's like you know i want to i want to be the power on top of that i want to wrangle this like there's the old guard that's sort of like the old guard with the money and they're like well we can make this ours and they wrangle that yeah but they can't they you know someone will figure something out but it's not going to be that it's not going to be one dude there's going to be a platform of some kind whoever gets in the cars you know in the most efficient way that's it yeah then it's done and for me if anybody's listening it's just a touch screen so you got mark maron and you got all these shows lined up.

Yeah. And you just punch the button as you're driving in your car to all the little show. It's like maybe a hundred buttons there, but they're all got the names of the shows that you love. You just scroll. It's scrolling through, man. Sure. And that's where it's at. And by that time, your car will be driving itself.

Well, I know. Let's hope it doesn't take that long, you know, but pretty close. Pretty close. But right now, I pulled up, man, I've got my iPhone and I'm listening to iTunes. I mean, tune it. Run it right into to iTunes. I mean, that's easy. Right. Tune it. Run it right into the plug.

I can do it through Bluetooth. Yeah, it's good. I've gotten hooked on Premier League soccer out of Britain. So now every day I'm listening to these freaking British sports shows. Oh, that's exciting. I'm listening to these guys out of London. They're like, Roy, why don't you say Chelsea? Chelsea's not what it is.

The phone's on. And I understand them, you know. You've figured out the rhythms and the slang. There's two languages they are. And I understand them, you know. You've got to figure it out. Figure out the rhythms and the slang. There's two languages I really don't understand. Scottish English and Jamaican English. Both of those guys forget it. Scottish English is rough.

Those dudes are. That's where my people are from. It's hard, man. You know, I went to Jamaica with my girlfriend. Her people are from Jamaica. She understood every word. I go to Scotland, forget it. Nothing.

You're going to find it? Huh. Yeah, I'm going there. You don't tell your son. That is I forget it, man. I'm dangling there from the Glasgow

airport thing. It's heavy, man. Scotland's heavy. Did you go to Glasgow? I got, yeah. It's an incredible city.

Freaking great, man. It's just great. It's beautiful. It's so gorgeous. It's insane, too. Crazy castles and stuff.

Castles and profoundly drunk people on the weekends. I've talked about it before. Profoundly drunk. I've never seen public drunkenness. It's just sort of like, and no one's doing anything about it. It's like, there's just another Saturday night. It's just like, there's casualties on the sidewalk. San Francisco's not a whole lot different on a Saturday night.

Denver, man. Denver's the way. Now with legal pot and the altitude and the booze. Seriously. Seriously. Denver downtown on the weekend, it's like people are going down. I got a little bit hooked by the onion this weekend where something along the lines of Robert Durst is overheard on the microphone that they haven't removed for three years

that he's going to kill those filmmakers as soon as he finds them. I read this and I'm like, wait a second. It's the onion man. That was a hell of a thing. I just watched it all back to back. I didn't do it. I just sat down and did it. And I got to show my girlfriend because she's completely like me.

I think part of me believes, like most of them, that he wanted to be caught. You saw him practice. That's what a psychopath does. They don't know how to behave as a normal human. I saw that, you know, but also what became like in the last part. When he knew the mic was live. I guess he might've, I don't know.

He is old, but like, but he wasn't, he wasn't rehearsing. He was talking to another voice in his head. That was the most revealing thing at the very end. Okay. He was like, you know, we're caught. We're caught, yeah. Like there was a dialogue going. And that was where you're like, no, he's not just your run-of-the-mill psychopath. Well, a psychotic is talking to heads, voices.

A psychopath is a guy who knows exactly what is sane and what isn't and just chooses to act against it. Well, he's got no conscience. No conscience, yeah. Yeah, and we walk among them. Yeah, we sure as hell do. Psychotics usually reveal themselves at some point. Yeah, they're usually the guys. Some drastic action.

They're yelling at a sign, you know, and you know, thank you. Although nowadays with freaking Bluetooth, forget it. Sure, sure, sure. We're all psychopaths. Yeah, we all look like it, yeah. Well, Phil, what's the website? You're a great man. Huh?

The website's Phil. Oh, wait, what were you saying? I'll let you say that. I said you're a great man. Yeah, we all look like it. Well, Phil, what's the website? You're a great man. Huh? The website's Phil. Oh, wait. What were you saying? I'll let you say that. I said you're a great man. Well, thank you, man. This guy's my inspiration, Mark Maron, and that's why we do have philhenryshow.com. Beautiful. Backstage Passage, Jack.

Beautiful. Beautiful, man. You're a good man. I appreciate it. I appreciate you coming. It's always good to see you. Thanks for having me, man. I appreciate it.

Tommy Davidson's been around a long time. he's got a history in this business he was on one of the revolutionary sketch shows and you know i tried to get him in here a while back it didn't work out and i got him in here today i'm gonna pester him about some stuff see if we can get some banter going okay uh tommy davidson's on tour right now. You can see him Sunday at Helium in Buffalo. Then in June, he's got dates in Houston and Austin, Texas. Go to TommyCat.net for dates and venues. Before I get into this talk, the Baltimore riots were still happening. So that's why we were talking about it like it was in the present.

All right. Now you know that. Now we can get to it. Calgary is a city built by innovators. Innovation is in the city's DNA. And it's with this pedigree that bright minds and future thinking problem solvers are tackling some of the world's greatest challenges from right here in Calgary. From cleaner energy, safe and secure food, efficient movement of goods and people, and better health solutions, Calgary's visionaries are turning heads around the globe, across all sectors, each and every day.

Calgary's on the right path forward. Take a closer look how at calgaryeconomicdevelopment.com. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m.

in Rock City at torontorock.com. Some people hate fucking cats. To me, the people that hate cats are just not used to wisdom. They're just not used to just kind of dealing with them. Right, that's true. Cats are meditative. Yeah, they gauge you. Yeah, and some people can't handle that. They're like, how are you judging me?

Yeah. Don't, don't. Yeah, and they also kind of like, they do their own thing based on what you want. Yeah. And sometimes they ask for what they want. Dogs don't. Dogs say, what do you want me to do? Right.

Cats just kind of ask for what they want. They just kind of look at things. Uh-huh. Look at you. And go, it's up to you. This food is gone. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah.

Your call. I can't remember. I know we must have met at some point. Because I go back to, like I was at the comedy store back in the mid-80s. And I think I ran into you on the road somewhere. I am sure. How old? You were the same age.

Yeah, I'm 51. Yeah, we remember. How the fuck? Remember HR Puffer's death. Yeah, sure. The Banana Splits. Yeah, I remember the Banana Splits. F remember the funky phantom yeah maybe i don't know the funky phantom little unclear on the barbarian yeah it was around when the groovy ghoulies oh yeah i remember the group wasn't banana splits yeah the stuffed animals on the roller yeah yeah yeah playing guitars yeah where'd you grow up uh m. Really? Silver Spring, yeah. I don't know where that is.

It's close to what? I grew up in D.C. Uh-huh. Yeah. And do you have brothers and sisters? One brother, one sister. My brother passed away. Still with me.

And one sister that still lives in D.C. And where were you born? Mississippi. Yeah. Mississippi. How'd you get from there to there? I was abandoned and then adopted by a white woman and brought to Colorado. She then moved to Washington, D. Mississippi. How'd you get from there to there? I was abandoned and then adopted by a white woman and brought to Colorado. She then moved to Washington, D.C.

You were abandoned, like left on a doorstep? Like left in the trash. No. Yeah. Is that true? Yeah. That's sad. Well, it was a happy day for me.

Yeah. It could have been sad. Yeah. That tale has turned out happy so far well yeah but how did you how did they get how did you get found do you know that part of the story yeah she was actually working with uh my natural mother about a year before your your adoptive mother yeah oh really working with her in the civil rights movement down there in really mississippi yeah immunizing kids and just trying to be a part of the movement that's going on.

Right. And had left there and came back to visit. Okay. And asked about her. They said she left. Yeah. Took her two older kids, but I think she left her youngest child at a house that is on such a street.

So she goes to the house, you know, and for some reason she's curious and it's a drug house and kids hanging out doing drugs. She goes to walk out, there's a pile of trash on the side of the house. Yeah. She says something told her to look behind this big giant tire that was with all this trash. Yeah. She saw my foot. Really?

Out of the pile. No kidding. And she dug the trash out and there I was. How old were you? Almost two. Wow. And I was technically, I think, dead. Took me to the hospital, two weeks, nursed me back. And I couldn't find the mom.

She hustled up a legal right to take me in and then later on adopted me. That's insane. I know. And then she had two other kids? She had them currently. Yeah. So one is a month older than me. One was three years older than me.

Oh, my God. And what did she- And they're white. What did she do? She actually passed away. She was a union worker all her life for workers' rights, for housing and urban development, anything else that came up. And was she married?

She have a- She did eventually get married, but I was an adult by then. Oh. That's a wild- Single mom. Single mom in the 70s. With three kids. Women's lib. Yeah. Women's lib, which means the kids do all then. That's a wild... Single mom. Single mom in the 70s. With three kids. Women's lib.

Yeah. Women's lib, which means the kids do all the cleaning. Uh-huh. You know. But how did that affect you? I mean, did you ask questions? When did you learn about... I didn't have to.

Yeah. Got my ass kicked as soon as we got in D.C. Moved into Washington, D.C. during the riots in 68. Yeah. How coincidental that that's happening now. Isn't that crazy? I can't fucking believe it. I can't.

A fool would know what happened. You take enough food for 20 people in a room full of 100 people for a week. Only a fool's not going to know what's going to happen. Right. I guess this has been waiting to happen. Baltimore actually, you know, was historically one of the notorious slaving cities.

Turned the slave uniquely to Baltimore was when the laws, the international laws were passed on importing African slaves. Yeah. In order for America to continue to get them, they opened up breeding farms. And the breeding farms actually were, the most of them were located in the Baltimore area. Breeding black people. Yeah. Oh, my God. I never heard that.

Isn't that something? And the highest rate of sexual abuse and incest among African-Americans is in that area. Huh. Isn't that something? What do you make of that? That cause and effect is real. Yeah. And now when you moved there, so you're with basically a white mom, two white siblings, and you.

In a black neighborhood. Yeah, in a black neighborhood. Oh, my God. Yeah. So. Let the games begin. And. Oh my God. Yeah. So. Let the games begin. And we're underway in Super Bowl XXV, you know. And what happened?

I mean, like, so your mom wanted to live in a black neighborhood. Right away. She was kind of, got a job there. Okay. Government job. Yeah. At HUD. Yeah.

A government job, you know, at another agency. You know, because that's a secretary town, really. Yeah. So a lot of women, single women, were moving there during the 60s. Uh-huh. Single women. Uh-huh.

For their careers and to raise their kids. Right, sure. And she was one of them. Yeah. But we coincidentally moved there during the riots in 68. So it was a mess. Tanks.

Yeah. Tear gas, me and my sister on the ground. Really? Yeah. And my brother. Yeah. My brother looks like David Cassidy. Oh, really?

But blonde. And my sister looks like Cindy Brady. David Cassidy. Oh, really? But blonde. And my sister looks like Cindy Brady. And here I am riding on the Rippy. You know? Yeah. Just using the 70s reference. Right. And they beat the shit out of us every day.

And were calling us White Cracker, and calling me White Cracker Lover. And I actually like graham crackers. Yeah. So I was like, what is this? Yeah. I actually literally thought, you know old are you like you know what five when he started to remember this five five it's crazy yeah so it's like I don't even like white crackers yeah like I like graham crackers you didn't quite

didn't quite know what they're sweet you know I mean I finally asked my mom if they're getting I asked beat so finally I asked my mom what getting my ass beat. So finally, I asked my mom, what's a white cracker? She said, that's what people call people our color that are your color. And they don't like them. And I was like, color? I'm brown. Yeah. She said, well, they're black people and we're white people.

I said, no, you're brown. Like the crayon is brown. Right. And you guys are like peach in the crayons. Yeah. And I said, well, people can be, aren't we the same? I thought because I grew up in Wyoming and Colorado on like farms and mountains. Oh, that's where you started?

So she got you and then took you to Colorado first? Right. What was she doing there? She was, her and her husband at the time taught at Fort Collins in the university over there. Well, how old were you when you were there? Anywhere from three to five. And then Wyoming? Wyoming was where she was from, so we went there often.

Oh, really? Yeah, so I grew up in mountains and streams. Significantly white areas. Significantly middle America. Yeah. You know? Yeah, all the Indians were dead by then. Fewer America. Yeah. You know. Yeah. All the Indians were dead by then.

Fewer around. Yeah. Fewer around. And. So by the time you got to D.C. you were like seven or five

or six. Okay. So you had memories and everything else. Oh yeah. So I'm going what the hell. And it blew me away

because I thought people were like animals. I thought they were born like animals. Like a cat could have a black cat a white cat. Sure. Brown cat and a speckled one yeah one litter and horse you could have a black horse and actually have like a brown horse yeah so

I thought people were born like that right I thought it was a brown one right and then we didn't make any difference right yeah and it did yes and then I removed from to the suburbs to run away from that and then it's first time I heard the word nigger because grown white men were calling me nigger and get the little nigger and chasing me home. In the suburbs. In Wheaton, Maryland. Yeah. And I barely got home with my life.

People starting fires on our porch. Really? Yeah. Nigger it is. It was in 68, 69. Was that a white neighborhood? Yeah. All white.

And I asked, what is a nigger? And she said, that's what people call your, that's what people our color call people your color when they don't like them. And I didn't like that at all. That was the explanation. And I said, oh, that's not good. At five, my head exploded.

There was just like a nuclear reaction. Like, what is this place called Earth? Right, right, yeah got it I got it I got it I got it uh the end of the end identity crosses window crisis was when we moved to a integrated neighborhood yeah which is rare at the time where's that at Silver Spring Maryland okay on the DC line yeah and some white kids did chase me down uh the railroad tracks uh-huh we were playing on and some black kids were standing at the end of the tracks and the white kids ran the other way and i ran behind the black kids and i've been black ever since that was the beginning of black well then i knew okay oh i'm on this side it's a a good side. But you never lashed out against your own family?

No. Only in not understanding and confusion. Yeah. Because they gave me just what a human being needs, love. And I thought I needed to get something from one color or the other. Yeah, when you grew. Right, exactly. And love is given in an undetermined amount by the individual. Yeah, when you grew. Right, exactly. And love is given, you know,

an undetermined amount by the individual. Right. Regardless of color. There was a point where you're like, you know, I'm going to be black now. Yeah, what side am I going to be on? You know, and so I am... So did it get tense with your brother and sister?

No, never, never. Oh, we were like the Brady Bunch. We were like the Parches family, Swiss family, Robinsons. So you could go home to that, but out in the world. Yeah, we were together, man. We were the band of brothers. Yeah. And, you know, Sons of Anarchy.

Yeah. You know, my household was like the movie Billy Jack. You know, that was our... A commune? Matto. Or I grew up in a commune in Colorado because their father was a weed-smoking hippie. So we'd go back there and stay,

and that's not no place for a seven-year-old to hang out in a commune at 70. Yeah. My mom was conservative and working in an office. And her folks were kind of... And her ex-husband was a hippie in a commune. Okay. So we ended up at folk festivals.

Wow. Seeing orgies and shit. Really? When we were seven. Come on. Crazy shit, man. Orgies? Oh, yeah, man.

That's right. I have Parliament Funkadelic and the Barcays and the Commodores and Led Zeppelin and Iron Butterfly all in one dude. Yeah. Yeah. Well-rounded. Yeah. Yeah. Well-rounded. Yeah. Found out that my grandfather, my true natural grandfather, is a pure Choctaw Indian from

Mississippi. How'd you figure that out? I met them in my early 30s. You saw it out of your family? Not really. My mother worked at HUD, saw the name. It happened to be her. Reunited with the family and found out that my grandfather was a pure Choctaw Indian from Mississippi.

And naturally, my grandfather, who I raised up, who was raised by my grandfather, is a cowboy from Wyoming. So I have a cowboy and an Indian as grandparents. Yeah. So I think I'm, and my brother was a white gay male. Really? He died of AIDS, unfortunately. Was an activist early, in the early years when no one knew about it. This was your brother that you grew up with?

Yeah. So I have a Native American grandfather, a cowboy grandfather, a gay white brother, a white sister. What'd she do? She actually was an electrician for a while. One of the first electricians in the area, D.C. area. And she's a parent now and raised her kids. Her first son is off to college. Really?

Already? Yeah. Did you meet your mom then? Your real mom? I did. And what was that like? It was cool to get some closure, but I don't know her. Right.

She wasn't there when I got stung by a bee or had bad grades. Right, but was she fucked up or no? Yeah, kind of a Bible thumper kind of chick. But did you ask her, like, why'd you put me in the garbage? She did. She was an addict out there. She was seeing an older guy. Yeah.

He had a family. Uh-huh. He already had a family. He was 50. She was addict. Right. Out there. She was seeing an older guy. Yeah. He had a family. Uh-huh. He already had a family. He was 50. She was 19. Right. He had four children by him. Anna, his own family.

She had four children by him? Yeah. I was the fifth. You were one of them. Yeah. And she was 19. In Mississippi. That's so fucking crazy.

And on drugs. So she started having kids when she was 15? Yeah. So she just left. And she just left me. And she left him too. And she started having kids when she was 15? Yeah, so she just left. And she just left me. She left him too? And she's remorseful. I was never with him.

I was with her. Right. And she left me, my older brother, and my three sisters alone. And then came back and got them and left me. So she was strung out. Right. Did you ever meet the other siblings? Yeah.

How were they? My oldest brother's great. Great guy. And you got a relationship with him now? Yeah, I got a relationship with him. He remembers me. Him and my oldest sister remember me. The other ones are like, wow, my brothers only live in color.

So I was like, I don't want to get to know them. But the other ones, and you still have a relationship with them? I do. How many kids do you have? Four. How old are they? 25. 21. with them i do how many kids you have uh four how old are they uh 20 uh 25 21 19 and eight eight eight surprise yeah is that a different woman yeah she's a good girl though how many how many wives have you had uh three three not wives but donors did you used to i think my buddy said you used to live next to gilby clark

i did he moved just over a couple blocks we're still best of friends oh yeah yeah because i knew his uh john daniel you know john daniel i don't know john gilby was in uh candy he bait yeah before before our guns rose right long. John was the bass player in Candy. He's now a manager. He's a friend of mine. He said that... Wow. He must have met me over there.

Right, he said... So I was always over at the house when they had parties. Right. He's got pool and shit. Oh, yeah. Gilby is my man. Gilby builds motorcycles and has fun with his life. Yeah?

And you guys are buddies? Yeah, he does. He's a guitar-playing motherfucker. He is. He's great, man. We're musical guys, and I met Slash through him. He's a guitar-playing motherfucker. He is. He's great, man. We're musical guys, and I met Slash through him. He was a good friend of mine. I got introduced to a real good consortium of good-ass L.A. musicians because of Gilby, man.

That's cool, right? We played together. Yeah? Yeah. What do you play? My voice. I know that, yeah. That was Boston.

Or Peter Framley. No, no, boom. No, no, fail. Like I do. Boom, boom, boom, boom. When did you start performing? About four years old. That's why the black kids like this. Yeah.

All of a sudden. Because you put on a show? Because I can sing and dance. So you started musically, really? Yeah. Music is my first love. Fell into comedy by accident. Were you singing before?

Oh, yeah. Singing and trying to do that. With a band? Bands. Oh, yeah? Band on the run. What kind of music? What kind of band were you in?

R&B. Yeah? R&B all the way. I remember you got pretty famous for the Al Jarreau impression. Yeah. He's a great guy. I mean, came to a club that I used to run called Tomity, which is a music showcase in LA.

Yeah. Everybody came through. All the hot musicians came because we had a really hot room. That was your place? All my place. Yeah. Lovely place. When was that?

That was probably about 2004. What happened to that place? I couldn't afford to keep it going. So I had real live music and I had real sound. Yeah. No one wants to pay for that. Right. Yeah.

Got it. Give him one speaker and sell drinks. Yeah. That's the motto. That's easy. Yeah. But so you had a good setup and training. Yeah, great.

Great. And he was sick in the hospital. He said, I'll come down to your show. I said, you want to perform? Nah, just watch. I said, okay, we'll see about that. Yeah. And boy, I got into this one tune.

There is such a lonely. And I looked over, he was on the mic on cue really searching that's been going on good stuff pointed me i went sweet tomorrow morning burst in with the don't He went, I delight in singing. Pointing at me, I go, how does Arrow knows the fun? And then he points at me, and me and him, we go, we both go, sweet tomorrow morning, burst in with dawn, and we brought the house down. I bet. Yeah. Was that exciting? Oh my God.

Yeah. Still gives me, you can feel it now oh my god yeah still gives me you can feel it now yeah yeah i can was he like a hero of yours oh of course yeah my brother when i was 15 i was listening to uh a lot of r&b and he said you i'm gonna expand you yeah there's more you have more range yeah you gotta you gotta let's start listening to some jazz vocalist and so he turned me on to you know him and gro. Right. You know, Sanborn. Yeah. Just Bob James, you know, Spiro Giro.

Oh wow, yeah. Yellow Jackets. Yeah, yeah. Pat Metheny. So did you- So I'm gone now. Yeah, did you sing professionally? At all?

I wish I did. I can say I did because I got paid a couple of gigs. When you were a kid though? Yeah, yeah, when I was a kid. Right. I went out with grown bands would come and knock on the door. Hey, can your son come and gig with us? Did that happen?

It did. Like who? It did. Just the local guys that were playing Earth, Wind & Fire covers would come over and say, we hear your son can sing. Could he come to practice? And she'd say, yeah, you can go over there for a little while. My brother walked me over there and I'd get on that mic where they'd say, we got to take

him out. But I was too young to go to clubs. Right, right. My brother walked me over there and I'd get on that mic when they say we got to take him out You know, I was too young to go to clubs right right Yeah So I wanted my mom to take me out and give me a record deal because I was really I won every talent show I was just so sensation. Yeah, and st. Just like Michael Jackson You could do that and she said yeah Michael when he had a natural voice right did something. Yeah, we started sounding He did something.

Yeah. He started sounding like. Yeah. You know, but he used to be. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Michael Jackson. Michael Jackson. Michael Jackson. Michael Jackson. Michael Jackson. Michael Jackson. Michael Jackson. Michael Jackson. Michael Jackson. you here my dear he had all this control yeah and I was that's from that

right I'm from that right Michael Jackson yeah not looking out at the what the night

you know not that one you know what I mean but the one you know I'll be there you know the control yeah

right and wanted her to you know because I saw they got mini bikes. They had the cartoon. Sure.

The Jackson 5, you know, every Saturday. Yeah. I want to do this, man, because I get a mini bike. Right. Wear bell bottoms. Yeah. Get me some girls. Uh-huh.

And my mother said, nope. I want you to spend time being a kid. And I said, yeah, but he gets a mini bike and he's still a kid. And she said this. She said, Michael Jackson's going to be fucked up. She was right. And I used to think she was crazy. I'm like, this woman is out of her mind.

I can have us in a big house. Yeah. Meanwhile, we got roaches. We're at welfare. You know, I'm like, I can get us out of here. Yeah. You know, she's like, Michael's going to be fucked up. And we aren't.

And he's here. He's gone. And I'm here. Did you ever you ever meet him i did how was that for you he actually called me not even knowing him called me out the blue for the impression because he no called me you must have seen me on any right color right when he died one of my agents said he was your favorite he would email me all the time and say where are you playing and oh yeah i never told you i said why motherfucker me all the time and say where are you playing and oh yeah i never told you i said why motherfucker um and so he called me at this big giant party at his house for 5 000 people a concert he's the only only comedian i trust to host it and i hosted it wow met him nice guy nice dude yeah didn't pay for the limo i thought that was weird something's wrong with that he did

I took the limo me and my 16 year old who was going out of her mind took her all the way out to Santa Barbara from Sherman Oaks uh huh and all the way back

stayed there all day and he didn't pay for the limo that's bizarre and uh his assistant went oh oh I'm sorry

uh you don't understand Michael doesn't do that really I said okay really and i said that's a little weird yeah something's off about that well yeah it's that that it's a policy the guy or the and then that the we are the world guy yeah and also just the rich fucker who asked you to host the show hosting yeah you know did he pay you for that no oh but just add the goodness

of your heart it's michael jack. I did do that. Sure. You know, and, you know, I thought that was a little odd and a little off. Yeah. But who am I to judge? It's Michael Jackson. Who am I to judge? People have judged him for worse things than being cheap. Yeah, I mean, the guy was, you know, he was coloring his skin and getting in an oxygen tank.

Yeah. You know, I can only feel empathy. Sure. Not resentment. Right. I mean, who, you know. Yeah, I can only feel empathy. Sure. Not resentment. Right. I mean, who, you know. Yeah, he was a troubled man. Yeah, I mean, we go and, you know, we want these things in life, we think.

Mm-hmm. And then we get them and then we think what, you know. Is that it? I mean, that's what the old black women say in church, you know. You better watch out what you pray for because you just might get it. I'm like, what's wrong with getting it? Yeah. Ain't enough. And that's what they meant. Yeah a it's a weird thing when uh nothing will make you feel

like you got it hey we all been there yeah yeah i can't get no exactly so when did you start doing comedy officially about 86 where dc was asked by a friend of mine to try comedy. So you're like 23, 22? No, I'm like 19. Something like that. Uh-huh. And I got a new job at the Ramada Inn and I'm happy. I'm going to call him.

I'm an assistant chef. I'm an assistant chef. Really? Cooking? At 19. Cooking. Yeah, that's great. I've been working in the kitchen since 15.

That's an accomplishment. Yeah. At the Ramada Inn. Where? An assistant chef. D.C.? In Maryland. Uh-huh. I mean in Virginia. Yeah. That That's an accomplishment. Yeah. At the Ramada Inn. Where? An assistant chef. In D.C.? In Maryland. Uh-huh.

I mean, in Virginia. Yeah. That's a great gig. Yeah. And I called him. My best friend grew up with me. And the first thing he said was, you're stupid.

I was like, what? He said, if I was like you and I was as funny as you, I'd be out there with Eddie Murphy and then make movies. Yeah. I had no concept of what he was talking about, man.

He's going, if they can do it, you can. And so he worked at a strip club. Worst strip club in D.C. Called me and said, I talked to the manager and let you on stage. At the strip club? Mm-hmm.

Was it the one above the comedy, next to the comedy place? No, no, that's a better one. Oh, okay. Yeah, I discovered that one later. Yeah. Called me and said, why don't you come down here? We're gonna get you on stage at the strip club.

Yep. That's the deal. And I finally showed up after three months of no's and the manager looks at me and says, is you come we're gonna get you on stage at the strip club yep that's the deal and i finally showed up after three months of yeah you know nose and the manager looks at me says this him yeah yeah you got five minutes buddy in between strippers yeah that's old school yeah yeah so you got five minutes yeah i said cool i turned to howard i said what am i gonna do he said i don't know man just say something yeah and from the first thing i said they laughed do you remember what it was uh yeah yeah uh he uh he said why don't you tell tell him about your house or your mom right right so i said my mom used to make us we had a lot of

roaches yeah and my mom said if we have roaches because we don't clean the kitchen right so we clean she made us clean the kitchen all day Saturday and all day Sunday which is the day we go out yeah and lo and behold

Monday we did not have any roaches in the kitchen right but they were eating our couch yeah me and my sister came home from school

yeah and we're like wow finally the roaches are gone and then we go to watch Speed Racer. Right. And pull up the couch pillows and there's like a million roaches. So they just switched locations. Sure.

Yeah. And that was it. You were locked in. On, on, on, on, on. You felt it. On. Stayed there for about three months. At the strip club.

My reputation just soared. And you were building a set. I'm killing them. Yeah. Killing them. Writing material. Killing them. Doing impressions.

All in a natch. Yeah. So when did you start working? Shortly after that. Yeah. The show promoters started coming to the club and putting me on huge concerts. Like who? Who'd you open for?

Yeah, yeah. Edwin Champagne King, a group called Starpoint, Luther Vandross. So you didn't do any clubs at the time? Because that was how a lot of guys started in the 70s. For the first year. Just opening, doing what, 10, 15?

In front of a huge... Yeah, 10,000 people. That's a notoriously difficult gig. Not for me. It was just natural for me. That's a notoriously difficult gig. Not for me. It was just natural for me. And then the clubs were even easier. Well, you're hot. I mean, I haven't seen you in a while, but you go out with a lot of juice.

I give you what I got, man. Yeah. I'm like Molly, boy. So how'd you get set up then? Did someone try to manage you? How'd you get? Yeah. I met a guy while I was doing the Apollo contest,

which was big, and it was actually a real talent show. The object of the game wasn't for the guy to pull you off stage. Right. It was for him to stay out there. And I won, and I won, and I won. And this guy approached me.

He was an attorney. He said, I want to manage you. Why don't you go out to L.A. for a week? I'll set you up in the clubs in L.A. If you like it, we'll move out there. I managed it. I said, okay. He wasn't a manager, though?

No. I was just an attorney. But just love talent. Right. So I went out to L.A., and for a week, I killed everyone. Where'd you go? Including Eddie Murphy and everybody else who got in my way. Where'd you go?

Comedy Act Theater over in L.A., which was the mecca of black comedy. Killed over there. Comedy store. Killed. Ice house. I mean, everywhere. Name it. What year was that?

That was probably about 87. Killed. Moved back here. And things slowed down. Moved where? Back to East? Moved back to East. Went back East. Came back out. Moved out here. And things slowed down. Moved where? Back to East? Went back East, came back out, moved out here,

and things slowed down tremendously. But you hadn't done, so you were on the East Coast, you were open for bands. Got to LA. You went to the Apollo, and then the guy said, go out there, showcased. Then you go back, he's, I killed, I'm moving out there. Then you moved out here.

I just, i hit the clubs as much as you can every night so you just like you had all this fanfare so you were loaded up you're like i'm gonna be the guy and then you get out here it's like well just get online that kind of thing yes and how in what clubs are you working name them nobody won't let me work ice house you're not what we're looking for store for three years really the ice house laugh factory he put you on no for three for three years mitzi no no you're not what we're looking for no one put you on you're not what we're looking for really that's surprising we get a lot of work in the black clubs okay i was like the like eddie murphy on turb eddie murphy

on steroids yeah back then. Yeah. I mean, even now. Did you meet him? Oh, yeah. Well, you worked with him, didn't you? The first time I got in the comedy store, I worked with him. Uh-huh.

I got a call from the comedy store. I got a little shows at the Belly Room and little stuff for about a year. I got a call. Mitzi's got you working the main room tonight, which is a big deal. Yeah. Friday and deal. Yeah. Friday and Saturday. Yeah. Who am I with?

Richard Pryor and Eddie Murphy. Wow. So my first stint in the main room was with Richard Pryor and Eddie Murphy. Richard either went on first and Eddie last, or Eddie first and Richard last. I was a doorman there in 87, so Richard had already burned himself up

and was trying to come back, right? Kind of? Yeah. Just getting his feet back? And Eddie was hottest. Right, right, right. And that's when Stiller, Ben Stiller, Adam Sandler. Yeah.

Roseanne Barr, Seinfeld, Louis Anderson, Sam Kinison. This is before any of them hit. Right. They were all big dudes in the big room. Well, these are people that were in the room when you did it? They were the main room people. Right, right. Jim Carrey.

Jim Carrey, yeah, yeah. These are the main room cats, and I was the young cat. Right. Who got into the main room. Right. And they saw you do it. Steve Odekirk. Sure.

Steve Odekirk. Jackson Perdue. Jack Perdue, yeah. Angel Salazar. Sure. Check it out. Check itirk. Sure. Steve Odekirk. Jackson Perdue. Jack Perdue, yeah. Angel Salazar. Sure. Check it out. Check it out. Yeah.

Yeah. So when did the big break happen, and how'd that happen for you? I mean, it wasn't like a, you know, just an explosion. Because Keenan was there. It was a build-up. And Damon was there. They were both there. A build-up.

A build-up. Did you see them at the store? I used to see them at the store all the time. Yeah. Keenan and I, yeah. All of them gave me the momentum for the break. It was Robert Townsend. Oh, yeah.

He was there, too. He took me out of the comedy store. Dom Herrera. Dom. Were you in Townsend's first movie? No. I wasn't in I'ma Get Your Sucker. I wasn't in Hollywood Shuffle, but I was at the premieres.

Hollywood Shuffle. I was an in dude. Right. Right. Kenan and Robert knew me as the premieres. Hollywood Shuffle. I was an in dude. And Kenan and Robert knew me as the young hot dude. Right. And so Robert put me on Partners in Crime

which was HBO. It's the first time you were seeing Blackstreet Sketch since Richard Pryor's show back in 73. How many did they do of those? I think about seven or eight.

Maybe ten. So that was Robert Townsend's sketch show on hbo and i did what happened to that dude man he's around is he real smart guy kind of a corporate cat knows how to make money what is he doing though uh you know what i don't know i really don't i think he's right now working with different networks tv1 huh but he all he knows how to he's smart man oh i know but like he was one of those guys i haven't seen him in years anywhere doing yeah but you know he's behind the scenes kind of like sure well so is keenan, I know, but he was one of those guys that I haven't seen him in years, anywhere. Yeah, but he's behind the scenes. Sure, man.

Well, so is Keenan, I guess, a bit, but he surfaces occasionally. Keenan does. We don't know who the arms dealers are, but they're making money. Sure, man. Well, good. I'm just happy he's making money. They're in business. Well, he got a lot of juice.

The angle on that was, I paid for this movie with credit cards. The Hollywood Shuffle, right? Yeah. That was the press angle. Mm-hmm. He got all these lines of credit. If you don't make it in Hollywood, you can always go to the post office. Right.

With the Jerry curl bit. That's right. That was funny. Yeah. So, out of that was my first national exposure as a comic. On the HBO. Robert Townsend. On the sketch show.

Yeah. And so that went so well that I actually appeared on the Arsenio Hall show. I just watched the recent one on the Arsenio Hall show. 2013. I sizzled that down. Yeah, I killed that. Yeah. It was weird.

I didn't watch any of those new shows. It was pretty wild, man. To see. It was almost like a time warp. Yeah. Yeah, it was weird I didn't watch any of those new shows it was pretty wild man to see it was almost like it's almost like a time warp yeah yeah it was it was

it's got the same haircut but alright so you do the Arsenio Hall show yeah and that gave me the national TV exposure so I got the cable exposure right

and then Sinbad put me on the road you were opening for Sinbad? no I was opening for Anita Baker and Luther Vandross. He couldn't do some dates, so I went on the road for like 15 cities. So doing the opening for music. And I was already ready for that. Right, right. And so from there, Eddie Murphy hooked me up with a pilot with his company.

It didn't fly. So were you and Eddie friends? Yeah. Are you still? Yeah, yeah. Of course, of course. He's the king. He's the king. Yeah. He's the funniest still yeah yeah of course yes he's the king he's the king yeah he's he's the funniest dude i know he's the king he is the king and um from there keenan picked me up for a living car now what was it what was the pitch there because they

were they we all you guys writers on that and was it a writer performer situation so he was just putting something together he said i'm putting a crew together were they, were all you guys writers on that? Was it a writer-performer situation? So he was just putting something together. He said, I'm putting a crew together to do this thing or did he have a deal in place? How did that go?

Yeah. I mean, he had a deal with Fox to do the TV show. Right. Put together an ensemble cast, which was us. Yeah.

And he just was like, Professor Xavier, just went and got all the best, assembled them in one team, put them in the danger room, and turned them loose on the world, baby. And I'm beast. How long did that show run for?

How many seasons? Five years. Five years. Had such a huge impact on everybody. Still does. Yeah. Do people still come up to you like, holy fuck.

Are you kidding me? It's the thing, man. Yeah. And any kids that are touched by the magic are like, oh my God, you're a legend. Yeah. Yeah. But they got to be our age now, though. Isn't that weird, though, sometimes where people come up to you and they're like 40

or 50 years old? Really? They're like, I'm watching you when I was a kid. Right. You're 40. Right. Like, how the fuck did that happen? Well, you're 40 and you watch me as a kid.

What does that make me? What made it so, like, in terms of the writing and the process of Living Color, what was the, was there, did Kenan sit everyone down and say, like, we're doing something different? Yeah. He said, get ready. Yeah. You can do it. He said, just watch.

Hang on. Because it was really the first, you know, black sketch show in a way that was mainstream, right? Yep. It was. It was. I mean, Richard didn't get a chance to fly. Richard's what's trippy, dude.

I've watched some of that recently. Yeah. It didn't get a chance to fly. Did you watch it recently? Of course. Have you watched it? I studied that thing. It's like some of that stuff was like-

It's got a lot of people. Paul Mooney's in that. Oh, yeah. Argus is in it. Uncle Dirty's in there. Marshall Warfield's in there. Robin Williams is in it. Sandra Bernhardt.

Sandra Bernhardt. All those store people were in there. Yeah. We're trying to come up, man. And all of them ended up being huge movie stars. It's wild to watch that stuff. I just read that biography. They were out in the comedy store that long ago.

Yeah. Since like 74. Right. Right. All right, so what was the writing process? Because you worked a lot with, what, you worked with Jim, you worked with Jamie, you worked with all those guys. David L. Greer.

Read Roundtable. Yeah. Pile up the best things for the week. Yeah. Decide by laughs and committee. Yeah. Closed door committee. Which sketches got on the air.

We were hoping it was ours. So everyone wrote their pieces. We were hoping it was yours every week. He was kind of like a newspaper editor. Right. And we were submitting articles. Right. Showrunner.

Exactly. No. Yes. Exactly. Well, you think he's funny he's funny guy right he's brilliant it's always amazing to me he's the funniest dude kenan is like a different kind of funny though well i used to watch him when i was a doorman i'd see kenan i'd see uh damon and was like two different things like kenan's a joke guy, and Damon was like- He's a brain guy. Keenan was like a joke brain guy, and Damon was like

a funny guy. Yeah, physical, man. Like, let's do it. Crazy. Yeah. He'd come into the main room, and I'm going, what are you going to do?

Your act? He goes, no, I'm going to do the jazz set tonight. He didn't know what the fuck he was going to do. Right.

And he would push the audience, man. Yeah, he's crazy as hell. They're a blessed group. They make you jealous you jealous there's a lot of them what happened to her what happened to kim kim's around yeah he's around yeah kim is doing some i think kim was doing some plays last time i talked to her and there's is there like a third generation away there is there is damon damon jr is doing movies craig is out there doing things damien is directing you know they're all out there doing things. Damien is directing.

You know, they're all out there. They're all doing something. Now, I always want to believe that everyone's still kind of in touch. Do you, like, with Jamie Foxx, are you guys friends? You know what? We're friends, but we don't see each other. Right. Right.

Because you worked a lot together on the show, right? Yeah. But we weren't friends then. Friends in the sense of I know you. Right. You know, me and Jim knew each other from the comedy store. So we have been friends for years. Really?

Yeah. He was like, I forget that, like, you know, that he was just this young guy. He's a great comic. Oh, of course he was. I just wish he'd do it. I know. Well, why don't you call him? Yeah, right. I don't know what-

I'd call him, but I can't ask him that. I don't know what he's doing up there. I'd love to talk to him. I have no idea. Oh, my God. He's doing well. Yeah? He's doing well, yeah.

He's doing really good. He's happy. Yeah? He's loving what he's doing up there. I'd love to talk to him. I have no idea. Oh, my God. He's doing well. Yeah? He's doing well, yeah. He's doing really good. He's happy. Yeah? He's loving what he's doing. He's able to do sketches on Funny or Die or put out whatever he wants. I saw this commencement speech he gave about painting. Did you see that? I didn't see it.

I saw the hat. Yeah. I think I saw him in a graduation hat and just thought it was a sketch or something. No, no. He really went out there and he did some. It was kind of trippy, man. Yeah, he's a trippy dude yeah was he always always i knew he was going to be a huge star so after living color that's when you really took off as a stand-up and yeah it was well the day it started yeah the day it started i mean you know everybody was i was the first to start

and make a motion picture and i had which one was that? Strictly Business. Okay. CB4 came shortly after that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I did probably, I toured the country probably about 10 times. Yeah. I did seven movies. Right, and a lot of the stand-up shows.

Yeah, I did. Did you do special? Yeah, I did three specials. Three specials. All while doing In Living Color. Right. You were hugeup shows. Yeah, I did. Did you do special? Yeah, I did. Couple? Three specials. Three specials. All while doing In Living Color. Right. You were huge, dude. Yes, sir.

Yes, sir. Big billboard on Sunset. Yeah. Yeah. You lived it. Lived it. And then what happened? You know.

I don't know. Well, you know, you cycle out. Yeah, you do. Yeah. You know, someone gets hotter and takes the Well, you know, you cycle out. Yeah, you do. Yeah. You know, someone gets hotter and takes the forefront, you know. I went through some personal things that were good for me. Like what? You know, I would say I, you know, had some substance problems.

On and off for a while. On and off for a while. Yeah? Yeah. Because I remember that. And then found and off for a while. Yeah? Yeah. Because I remember they- And then found out that it wasn't about that at all. What were you doing? I won't say it. I'll just say substance.

Yeah? Yeah. Because I remember when we were touring, people kind of knew that you were kind of strung out. Going through some things. Doing some shit. Going through some things. You didn't know what Tommy you were going to get. That kind of thing.

Which Tommy showed up. Yeah. Well that kind of thing which time he showed up yeah well the thing is if he shows up he'll kill right no matter what yeah I never did it

on stage right yeah but it was part of my forging process and you know Mitzi told me you know

I'm glad it happened early the substance stuff yeah I'm glad it happened early in your career yeah that way you can

deal with it you don't have to wait till you're like in your 50s and like Richard and them. Right. You can get it and deal with it and then have a life. Did you? Yeah. Dude, I just read that book on Richard.

I don't know how the fuck he even got into it. Got a life. Got one. You got one. Got a life. You know, kids graduated from college. Me, I'm the best I've ever been, the most potential I've ever had. When you say it wasn't about that.

It was about me. It was about, what it was was about me knowing who I am and why I'm here. Huh. And what process did you do to find that stuff? In recovery. Yeah. In recovery, I have a lot of people that know about it that I connected with. Yeah, I got 15, 16 years.

Yeah, that taught me how. Right. That taught me how to stay clean and live happily. Uh-huh. You know, and it took. Yeah. It took. How many times did it take?

Hmm. It took me a few. Yeah, it took me a few. Yeah, it took me a few. Yeah. Yeah, more than 10. Yeah. Double digits. But, you know, my cousin told me one time, he said, you went to rehab, right?

Yeah. He said, more than once, right? I said, yeah. He said, then it didn't work. I said, no, it did work. Yeah, finally. Because if I didn't do it, I'd be out of here. Yeah.

Yeah, you know, thank God I, you know, don't have to be with Farley and some other guys. I look back on that and I never thought I'd say I'm happy that happened. Sure. But I'm happy that happened. Yeah. Yeah, because look at me, man. I'm like 51, but eight years old, man. Right.

Yeah, man. You can see it. Get all. Yeah. I'm open. I'm connected, bro. Yeah. Silver sur man. Right. Yeah, man. You can see it. Get all, yeah. I'm open. I'm connected, bro. Yeah. Silver Surfer.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Silver Surfer can go from one universe to the other. Yeah. He's badass. And do you have good relationship with all your kids and all your- Great. Their mothers? Yeah, they exit well, you know.

Yeah. Hey. Yeah. Did you ever, did you like put together shit from your childhood? Did you ever do that shit? Yeah, there was a lot, you know, there was a lot connected to that. The abandonment stuff?

None of it was the reason why I did it. Of course not. Right. But I did see some of the contributing factors that would make me want to reach for something. Right. Right.

Other than things that I already have. Right. Now I know what I have, so I don't need anything. Yeah. So I don't have to add anything to me because I'm complete. Right. And you fucking always work, dude. You seem to work a lot.

I never stopped working. Right. Through the whole ordeal. Right. I never stopped working. And something in me wanted life and wanted to do this bad and so you know i'd have a setback come back and do something even greater on screen something even greater in tv something even greater in stand-up i became a i actually became a better performer as time went on and um

i still don't think i've reached my peak. What's the plan? Today's good. Made it on over here. You know, we hit the traffic in time enough. You know what I mean? Yeah. Maybe able to sneak in a little nap. Uh-huh.

You know? I guess I still got some chicken left from Ralph's. Do you, when you perform though, do you do Vegas? Do you do, what do you do? I'm around the country. Yeah.

I do clubs around the country, concerts around the country and I do venues around the world. So I've been traveling. You do international? International. I've been traveling the world.

Like where do you go? Just came from Kuwait. How was that? I know that a lot of people go down the Emirates and whatnot. Really? Wonderful.

What kind of crowd? Stand up. Yeah. Great young Kuwaiti, you know, Kuwaiti-American friendly crowd. And they remember you

or they know you? Killed. Yeah. Third time there. Really? Egypt, Japan. Egypt?

Korea. Yeah. Singapore. The Philippines. Kurdistan. Really? India. And where do you,

where most of these shows take place? Military bases. Oh. Alaska, the North Pole. So you're doing, you perform for the troops? Oh yeah. Okay.

Oh yeah. I went into the red zone. I went to Afghanistan four times. Really? And they love it, right? They love it. They're appreciative. Loving it.

What do you do mostly for that show? What I do. Yeah. They love it. They're appreciative loving it what do you do mostly for that show uh what i do yeah they love it they're waiting on me yeah i've been able to do some good things god was in um one base in um bagram i believe yeah and uh three of our our boys were shot on the outside of the base not far from where i was staying, actually. And one died. One's spine was severed, and one lost his foot. So they knock on my door early in the morning, all the brass is out front. I'm going, Jesus, I think they got a helicopter.

They better have a helicopter out there. And they said, would you come and say hello to the young man that lost his foot? And it's one of the reasons I found out why I'm doing what I'm doing. It's why I'm glad what happened'm doing it's why I'm glad what happened happened and

I'm walking over there going what am I gonna say to this kid you know so I did just did my little prayer just show me what I need to do here

and I'm talking about everybody peeled off as I was walking towards the curtain that surrounded the bed you know it was just me like okay they really want me to do this by myself yeah so I peel back the

curtains and the kid is like kind of sleep he wakes up and sits up and go and smiles man and goes what are you doing here and I said I was about to ask you the same thing yeah we talked for an hour really and it was a cinch yeah you just needed to show up. Yeah. That's sweet, man. Were you always a religious person? No.

No, my mom was a staunch atheist, man. So I never had that. Really staunch? Kind of a hippie. Uh-huh. Kind of, you know, leftist, revolutionary. What religion was she? None.

None? None. Not brought up with any? She believed that was the opium of the masses. you know leftist revolutionary you know what religion was she um none none none not brought up with any she believed that was the opium of the masses right which it has been used as of course you know i get it but like you but like in terms of when you kind of get grooved into a yeah you know day at a time business right there's a well you know she was uh a spiritual person right and that was the difference between a religious person and i found she was a spiritual person. Right. And that was the difference between a religious person. And I found that I'm a spiritual person. Sure. And I accept religious principles.

Yeah. Right. Be good to other people. Everybody got it. Yeah. The part where I got to kill you because you believe that. Yeah. I don't think JC or Allah said that one.

Right. That was man's interpretation. Plus, you know, God is man's interpretation. It's all, yeah, it's all. I mean, it took a man to tell another man that that exists anyway. For as far as we know, God never came down and said, hey, here I am. Someone made it up to give us all purpose. You know what I'm saying?

Sure. God could be a Puerto Rican woman drinking green whiskey. We don't know. That would be very exciting to find that out. You know, but we have faith. Yeah. Faith is different. So what about all your kids?

Do you guys all get along? What are they doing? Anyone in show business? They're great. My daughter Jillian, she's giving it a shot. She's starting to audition. Oh, acting? She's into the acting thing.

How's that going for her? I mean, not so good. Yeah. She's got to get a job. Yeah. Well, what do you tell her?. Yeah. She got to get a job. Yeah. Well, what do you tell her? It doesn't work unless you have a job.

Right. Well, what do you tell her about show business? I mean, I can't, I don't know. Would you, obviously you can't say don't do it.

All I can say is, you know, it's hard. I can say the things that I learned that work, which are work hard and don't give up. Find a way to make a good living. Embrace your life. Right. And commit. Yeah. And give everything you got a way to make a good living. Embrace your life. Right.

And commit. Yeah. And give everything you got every time. That's my recipe. Mm-hmm. And that's what she's going to take? You know what I hope? What are the other ones interested in?

Not the 8-year-old. One's a DJ downtown. LA. Oh, yeah? He's in the DJ world, 19-year-old. Having a good time? Good kid? Too good of a time.

I want him to get a job. My other son's autistic. Uh-huh. Uh huh. Having a good time? Good kid? Having a too good of a time. I want him to get a job. My other son's autistic. Uh huh. Doing well. At what level? What does that mean? He's functioning.

Uh huh. He's graduated from high school. Uh huh. Now has a job and he's taking care of himself. So, you know, autism is one of those things that's hard to understand and it's difficult on parents but it's like anything else. You know, you see people with no things that's hard to understand and it's difficult on parents, but it's like anything else. You know, you see people with no legs running in the Olympics. Yeah.

So that must have been a challenge. Challenge. Yeah. Real challenge, especially since not being with a mom. Uh-huh. Because you're not with a mom. Right. So not being able to be there every day and understand that.

Right. I've got to just keep faith about the relationship and it's there. As long as I do my part and love like my mom loved me, I know everything's okay. Yeah. And you have that with all the kids. All of them. And the eight-year-old is in your house now.

No, she lives in San Jose. Oh, my God. You don't hold on to any of the women? Yeah, but I see her. Okay. All the time. All the time. You got no woman right now?

I do have a woman. Okay. Is it good? It's good. It's good? Yeah, it's good. But not those three. Not those three. Yeah, It's good. It's good? Yeah, it's good. But not those three. Not those three.

Yeah, today's good. A day at a time, bro. I know, man. Look, I'm glad you stopped by. I'm glad we had the conversation. You don't get this a lot. What, to have the long talk? Yeah, because, I mean,

it's all automated. Yeah, I know. How quick? Where are you going to be? The music programs. Do that thing. Yeah, I know. I'll quit. Where are you going to be? The music program. Do that thing. Yeah. There's not a real resident DJ as a guy.

Uh-huh. That's just kind of like a technician. Yeah. No. And you're up out of there. Yeah. The satellite. Yeah.

We're going to do four minutes. What do you want me to set you up for? Yeah. Thank you, man. Yeah, yeah. Great. And now, don't forget to be a part of the magic and part of the improv this week. Yeah.

That's it. Well, it's great talking to you, man. I'm glad you're doing well. Don't forget to be a part of the match. You're going to be a part of the improv this week. Yeah, that's it. Well, it was great talking to you, man. I'm glad you're doing well. Good for you. Thank you. Good for you. You got what I got. Well, there you go.

That was Tommy Davidson. This is me, Mark Maron. Go to WTFpod.com for all your WTFpod needs. Get on the mailing list. I'll email you every week, every Sunday. Go to WTFpod.com for all your WTFpod needs. Get on the mailing list. I'll email you every week, every Sunday. Go to WTFpod.com slash calendar. Check those dates because I'm coming near you. Cleveland, Chicago, Minneapolis, New Jersey, New York, Portland.

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