WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 615 - Penelope Spheeris

Episode Date: June 28, 2015

Filmmaker Penelope Spheeris was born into a traveling carnival, so it makes sense she would wind up in show business. The director talks to Marc about her early work with Richard Pryor, Albert Brooks and Lorne Michaels, as well as her experiences making The Decline of Western Civilization documentaries and Wayne's World. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated

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forward take a closer look out at calgary economic development.com Path forward. Take a closer look at CalgaryEconomicDevelopment.com. Lock the gates! Alright, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fucking ears?

What the fucksters? What the fuckabillies? What the fuck Minster Flers? How's it going? It's Mark Maron. This is WTF. Back to business as usual, I guess it would be. There was the open with fuckwords intact, which were removed from my mouth out of respect for the President of the United States of America. Now, am I going to milk that? No. I feel like it was all done very nicely, and it's a memory in my mind.

I still have not. I will be honest with you. I still have not watched any television since I talked to the president of the United States. But now we're back. We're back to the show, and it might be a slight adjustment, but but uh i things go on life goes on the president had a big week i had a big week not comparing obviously he had some bigger responsibilities than i did i am in new york city currently i am recording this over the weekend. I just did Port Chester on Thursday, which was fun. Last night I did the Howard Opera House at the Brooklyn Academy of Music, which was amazing.

2,000 people there. Before I tell you about what's happening in my life, can I tell you that I have some gigs coming up that I would like people to come to? Primarily Boulder Theater in Boulder, Colorado. The Boulder Theater is Friday, July 24th. Saturday, July 25th, I'll be at the Paramount Theater in Denver, Colorado. Those are coming. I believe that Portland is sold out for the 10th and the 11th at the Aladdin and Revolution Hall, two different places. But the Colorado dates. So if you need to see me, and these are the only dates that you have open, fly to Colorado. I will say this, though, that

Penelope Spheeris is on the show and her daughter will join us as well briefly at the end, Anna Fox. They work together. Penelope Spheres is the director of, uh, I guess most people would know her for Wayne's world, but more importantly, uh, she, she did the decline movies,

the decline of Western civilization, one, two, and three, the first one being punk rock, the second one being metal. And the third one being the crusty punks. But the first two,

which I'm most familiar with are fucking great movies Decline of Western Civilization part two is a is sort of this weird life-changing movie for whatever reason and and and I watched it I watched they sent me the box from Shout Factory which is where you can get them I watched the first one which I hadn't seen in years and a lot of it focused on X and John Doe who I've had on the show. And to see him as a young, sort of sweaty, kind of high dude was wild, man. It's, you know, age will humble us all. So, you know what I don't talk about enough?

I actually don't talk about my TV show on IFC enough. Marin on IFC is in its third season. And I think it's truly the best season we've done. It's the funniest season. And it's on Thursday nights at 10 o'clock on IFC, wherever you are, wherever you may be. And I'm trying to, you know, I'm just, I'm proud

of the show. It's funny. And because you know, I shot it a while ago and it seems far away from me, I sometimes forget that it's there. And I'd like you to watch it because it's funny. This week is a good one on Thursday. It's the Professor of Desire episode written by the amazing Jerry Stahl,

starring me and Adam Goldberg. And it's a little crazy. It's a little dark, a little sexy, but it's a good one. So do that. I can plug myself a little, can I? Okay, yeah, I think I can. Where am I going tonight?

Well, I'm gonna be doing Huntington, Long Island, and I'm gonna be doing New Jersey, Red Bank, New Jersey. And I've been told, I've been informed that my father will be joining me in Red Bank, New Jersey. And I've been told, I've been informed that my father will be joining me in Red Bank, New Jersey. I don't think I've seen my father in months. His sister lives down there. So I'll have something to report to you next week about the excitement of the old man and whatever condition he's going to be in showing up at the show. And I think that's why I'm a little heavy hearted. I'm a little skittish. I'm a little weirded out. I know I just talked to the president and that's

wonderful. And, uh, you know, my father was, uh, he seemed to be somewhat impressed. Uh, I think he sent me an email saying, uh, maybe this means you can be on television interviewing people, which I think is reasonable. I don't think it was that contentious, but I'll let you know how it goes when I, when I see him over the weekend here. Yeah, so I got a little more tour left, and then what happens? I seriously think I'm going to have to take a little break from comedy. It's been rough going in a lot of ways in terms of just doing all the dates. They've been great.

I taped the special, but now I got to go back to the drawing board. Who is Mark Maron now? Who is Mark Maron post taping of comedy special and post discussion or conversation with the president? Got to sort that stuff out. Maybe she hit the lecture circuit, something like that. Or maybe I should just hole up. I'm really looking for a way to just hole up. That's my dream. I've shared it before. Just to disconnect. See you later. Not engaging anymore. Anyways, I was happy to have Penelope Spheeris and I got Rich Voss on Thursday. People thought I was kidding when I said I'd be following President Obama with Rich Voss. But it's true. It's true. And I'll be be home for the fourth of july which is always exciting in my neighborhood i can just go into my neighbor dennis's yard uh my dennis of course is the guy

who had the snipers on his roof i guess i'm gonna i'm gonna be referring to it quite a bit i will say this about portland there's gonna be uh bring a little extra bread if you can brian jones the guy who makes the wtf mugs the hand-thrown mugs the potter dude up in portland is going to be selling them at the shows and there's a limited supply of those but he will be there but uh you know it's for the fourth of july man i remember doing it here in new york it's weird i did another one of these articles where some kid from the voice he's like can we walk around the lower east side and uh just being in new york in the summer the weather's been perfect for once it's starting

to rain today but i've had two amazing days they you know the humidity the pressure cooker has not really started but man did i spend some sweaty days just sweating out toxins running around the Lower East Side, doing comedy in my shorts. Yeah, a little nostalgic. A little nostalgic. Oh my God. I just, I can't believe the life. I can't believe the life. I am grateful. Okay? I'm grateful today. Do that. Why don't you do that? You know, until i get my uh my aggravated chops back be thankful for your life okay it's hard but jesus man surprising surprising where it can take you so right now let's go to the garage and talk to penelope spheras this is a good interview man there's a lot of stuff that i didn't really realize about her. She's been a lot of places.

She knows a lot of people. She's made some good movies. And she's a pip. And the relationship between her and her daughter is pretty touching. And I enjoyed talking to them. You can get the Decline box, Decline of Western Civilization 1, 2, and 3 at Shout Factory. All right, let's do that. Let's talk to Penelope Spheeris.

Death is in our air. and Western Civilization 1, 2, and 3 at Shout Factory. All right, let's do that. Let's talk to Penelope Spears. Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life.

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take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com Penelope Spheeris.

Spheeris. Like a sphere. Spheeris. What kind of name is that? Oh, it's Greek. Really? Uh-huh. And that's the whole of it?

No, my mom was Irish. Yeah. My father came from Greece, and my mom came from kansas really yes that's exotic so you was your mother like uh oh my god a greek man well he he actually um owned a carnival my dad did and he was traveling through town uh-huh and he was she was she was 19 and he was 40 your mother ran off with the carnival. Basically, yes. 40 and 19?

Yes. He already had a family and he just ditched them and then picked up my mom on the street. And then they got married and he had four more kids, yeah, with her. So you have a whole set of siblings from half siblings? No, they're full. Well, you mean there's that whole other family. They really totally ditched out on him so really i only just have my brother two brothers and a sister you have no idea about those people well they try to get a house from us that was supposed to be ours at one point but then i had to go fight with them and i won really yeah what was that

what do you mean because it was in arkansas because my dad had a home in Arkansas. When we weren't traveling around, we would go there. And so the other family tried to snag the home. And it was a terrible, awful fight because it reminded me of my father dying. And so it just brought up all that horrible stuff. So this was years later? Yeah, yeah. That was years later. yeah that was years later

so that home stayed that was in the 80s really that home stayed in the family that long yeah my mom just kind of let it sit there and some lawyer dude just took the money and they never sent it to us we we my brothers and sisters and i were raised in trailer parks after the carnival okay so so you you're born your your father's first family split. So it's your mom who's 20 years, 21 years younger than your dad with a, with a kid. How many, you're the oldest? Oldest. So, and there were two other ones? My sister, Linda, and then my brother, Jimmy, who was a singer and he passed away. He got killed by a drunk driver in 84. And then my brother, Andy, who's still with us. Yes. and you traveled in the carnival up until when i

was almost seven we traveled in the carnival but i think you know your your personality is pretty much formed by the time you're that age you have a carnival personality i believe i do and i think mark that's why i kind of fit into the movie business right or so you know yeah what kind of memories do you have of that because that's a fairly impressionable time and to be in a carnival like i was always fascinated with with freak shows and uh the midway uh and and i would go to the albuquerque state fair and i was i was kind of into that do you have there's something i i guess charming and haunting about a carnival yes and and and it was both for me as well. And I have lots of memories of the sawdust on the Midway.

And I have lots of, I actually have lots of photos and a little bit of moving footage of the carnival. And my daughter, Anna Fox, who I work with, is going to be, or she's already, she got a cut on a movie about the same subject. Oh, yeah? Oh, yeah. It's a good movie.

It's a good piece. It really is. About the carnival? Yes. A documentary about your life? About my life and more my mother's life on the carnival and the fact that my father was murdered in Troy, Alabama in a racial incident in 1951. Yes, that's what happened. And so that's why we had to give up the

carnival what wow that's all right so leading up to that i mean what were your job what was your your mother's job at the carnival did she it seems like in a carnival everybody has a part oh yeah everybody pitches in well mainly my mom mom was the ticket taker. And I would sit like right in the ticket box there when the people came in and paid. And she would take their money and give them some tickets and they would go in. And my dad was a strong man. He was a wrestler, actually. And so he would do what they call free acts outside so and he would stand out there and like do things like put chains on his arms and let cars drive away and all the cars with the wheels would spin and he would be like

the strongest man in the whole wide world and did you believe it oh yeah totally hey you never saw the trick and well they did put a little oil under the tires. So, now, was there other oddities at the carnival? Oh, yeah. I mean, it wasn't like an animal-based carnival, because that's more circus. The carnival that I was on, it was mostly just freaks. What kind of freaks? Psychics and gypsies and stuff. What kind of freaks?

Well, you know, there's your basic fat lady. Can I say that on the air? Babies in jars? Were there babies in jars? No. That's really funny. No. Oh, dear.

Fat ladies? Okay, yeah, that's fine. There were fat ladies and bearded ladies and Siamese twins. You had Siamese twins? We did, dear. Fat ladies. Okay, yeah, that's fine. There were fat ladies and bearded ladies and Siamese twins. You had Siamese twins? We did, actually. And there are pictures of old Siamese twins. My mom used to go, oh, there's Violet and Daisy. Violet and Daisy.

Well, my mom would know these characters because they were on the carnival. But Violet and Daisy were on your carnival? I mean, yeah, I'm just making these names up at this point. But yeah, they were people that my mom recognized. I knew Ronnie and Donnie. Ronnie and Donnie were the ones that toured. Are those the Wahlbergs? That would be terrifying.

They were twins. They were Siamese twins. Donnie and Mark Wahlberg, Siamese twin, which is constantly beating each other over the head. That would be so... With their Boston accents. With their spare arm. No, I saw Ronnie and Donnie. head that would be with their with their boston accents spare arm yeah no i saw i saw ronnie and

donnie and uh yeah and i know there was a i just became very fascinated so you had bearded lady yeah the fat lady had time he's that's full uh that's a full freak show oh yeah we and so that's why when i got into the film business it was like a full freak show so i was pretty comfy with it sure but like do you have recollections of were all these people nice people was there a sort of a community setting did you eat together and oh my mom cooked and and took the tickets and and she would cook for like 100 people that's fascinating it was a family and that's why with like when i did the decline movies those those those kids those punk rock kids that were kind of like thrust out from their families to me i felt like they they it was the same as the people on the carnival you know they

they kind of reform a family yeah punk rock was definitely a carnival and a freak show totally yeah but what what happened with your father let's get to that and move up through the the the rest of it i mean what what happened well there was a um there was a um a black guy that was it was a young man actually um probably late teens early 20s that had joined the carnival and he um a lady had twisted her foot and ankle whatever and he had been told to go get some ice so he stepped in front of some people who were waiting to buy ice cream and to get some ice and a guy in the line got mad because he didn't want a black guy getting in front of him so he hit him on the back of the neck with a cane and um hurt him pretty bad and he went to tell my dad

about it and when my dad approached the man it was in troy al Alabama. My dad approached the man. He pulled out a gun and shot him. Oh my God. That is insane. And we're talking early 50s here. So Mark, what do you think? Did the guy go to jail or not? In Troy, Alabama? No. No. Not for very long. Not at all. Not at all?

No. My father was wrong because he was protecting a black man was the premise of the defense but was it did they say it was self-defense or something they just that was enough that yeah so that i mean i don't know what the laws were but obviously segregation was still enforced and in place big time horrible my dad used to take us around to his friends uh houses that were kind of in the backwoods through the south. That's mostly where we were.

And we would go and visit his friends along the roads, along the highways there in black families who were really wonderful people. And on the way back, my dad would say, Okay, don't tell anybody on a carnival we did that now because they're not going to understand. Really? And that was a carnival. did that now because they're not going to understand. Really? And that was the carnival. They're pretty liberal-minded, yeah.

But your father didn't really see color lines. Not at all. He was an immigrant himself. My mom either. Yeah, I learned from a young age, yeah. Yeah. And after your father was killed, what happens to the family? Where do you end up?

Arkansas? Yeah, we went and lived in that house we had in Arkansas and stayed there for a short time and my mom met some guy named bill stanton who was in the army and he had to move to california we're getting relocated so we moved to california and then she ditched him and she found um i had seven stepfathers she i swear to god she never gave up no no she you're funny she never gave up there's always another one around the corner no she was a trip my mom was a trip i did a little movie about her she passed away now they called her gypsy because she was from the carnival but she was a trip she's

um you know like if she needed tires she would marry a guy that had a tire store because she didn't want to just go sleep with him you know right she was a moral moral person she wanted to spend at least a year or two with them yeah exactly yeah well yeah and you know i had all kinds of uh you know strawberry picker stepdad at one point oh yeah he was a cool dude antonio delatore and we got really good strawberries at that time sure so your mom married a guy for strawberries well i think he was actually very cute. Oh, there you go. Cute and strawberries. Trying to get laid on that one.

Plenty of pies. So seven, huh? So you moved, but you spent most of that time in California once you got here? Oh, yeah. We just moved around. We were Long Beach. How old were you? When we got out here, probably nine, ten, something like that.

And then you were here. You're California girl. Yeah, and then we're here. Probably nine, ten, something like that. And then you were here. You're a California girl. Yeah, and then we're here. Yeah, and then we would be in trailer parks down in Chula Vista and National City and Midway City.

Wow. Different trailers or did you move the... Every once in a while, we'd bump it up to like a 24-footer. Yeah. And that's pretty good for six people. Oh, my God. Have you ever heard people having sex in a trailer it's just horrible the whole thing must move the whole thing moves and it's just creepy so you knew when it was going on oh yeah and you know it kind of made me kind of like just not not

even want to be involved with sex i was like you know what i mean it's like sure why don't you stop shaking the damn trailer house yeah shaking the house i mean well when we finally did get a house i didn't hear it too bad but you know so there were six where how was there six three four five four kids and then a mom there was a fourth one four children yeah two brothers and a sister and me yeah and it was all was that all from your original father yeah and she never had other kids no she goes i'm having my tubes tied after this one because, you know, I ain't doing this again. And then my dad got pissed at her and started going over and fucking the trapeze artist lady. Oh, yeah?

Do you have a kid with her? Who knows? Maybe I have a half-sister somewhere. A trapeze artist. Fucking the trapeze artist. There you go. That's carny life. She didn't know about it that didn't

start some shit who my mom yeah she go but now pick over there and get your daddy he shouldn't be over there with that red-headed bitch i'm like okay exciting life so so you grew up in all these different locations here in southern california and then what what compels you uh to to uh to pursue film? Well, I actually was in art school at the same time in Long Beach State, at the same time Steven Spielberg was there. And I don't know what he was doing there because there was no film school. Did you know him?

No, I didn't. I wish I would have, though. I met him later on the Little Rascals movie. He produced that one that I directed. But then, you know, I went from the art school. the people in art school were a little bit posery to me. So I kind of swung the other way and I went to UC Irvine and studied the sciences and ended up focusing on psychobiology of all things, which is actually the study of human behavior. Really? Yeah.

And I really loved it. I found a professor that was just fantastic, Dr. George Falcon. And he really guided me through. And I was just falling in love with that. And then one day, a guy who's a director still, Bill Norton, who was going to school there, said to me he was going to go to school at UCLA to film school. And I'm like, what? You mean they have a place that will teach you how to make a movie? He goes, yeah, UCLA. They've got a film school. I'm down. I'm like, what? You mean they have a place that'll teach you how to make a movie? He goes, yeah, UCLA, the film school.

I'm down. I'm going there. So that's when I took off and went to UCLA. And that was, okay, where did Spielberg end up, at USC? Yeah, he ended up at USC, and then the battle began between the two schools, just because of who was, no. So you got out of psychobiology what what do you think drove you to that to psychobiology i mean i think my the fact that i that i really just love

studying human behavior and that i was really on a constant lifelong quest to understand my mother's erratic behavior and i think now in retrospect i look back and as brilliant and as genius as she was yeah and as kind and loving and sweet, I think she probably was bipolar or had some other personality disorder. Oh, really? Why? Was she show symptoms? Yeah, she had some badass mood swings.

Yeah. Oh, really? Yeah. Did the mood swings coincide with the time the man spent in the family? Could be. Could be. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. As soon as she got a new boyfriend she was fine right exactly the depression ended all right no no i do my dad was a bipolar and it's a it's a tricky disposition it's tricky disposition the thing is a lot of it and which is may account for my part or all of your your intelligence and brilliance because a lot of those people who are on the edge of insanity are also extremely bright you know and yeah no it's but you you're certainly as the child of one you're certainly wired to interface with uh you know a broad spectrum of uh of emotional and psychological uh uh frequencies i'm being polite no no i know and it's good training

for dealing with the world. I guess so, but it's not great for relationships. How'd you do? Oh, terrible. Yeah. I never got married. Never? No, I mean, I didn't see the purpose of it, you know?

Never got married and never wanted to and still don't want to. Right. No. Yeah, but you had some love. I had some, like, my stints are usually six years. Oh. I do six years. That's about right. Yeah. But you had some love. I had some like my stints are usually six years. Oh. I do six years. That's about right.

Yeah. I don't do no weekenders. I don't do no like, you know. You lock in. Month long. I do like a six year deal and it's over with. Then it just fizzles out. Later, dude.

Doesn't it? Not angrily. Just sort of like, I'm exhausted. Well, I think there's only one that I totally fucking hate, but I think the rest of them I still love. Uh-huh. In a way. What about her dad?

Oh, her dad was a sweetheart. I met him when I was going to school at UCLA, and I was putting myself through school at IHOP. Yeah. And he walked in one night. It was hippie days. You know, he was wearing a tablecloth. Uh-huh.

And he had hair down to here, and he was gorgeous, as you can tell by looking at Anna. She got her looks from somewhere. But, you know, back in the day, him and his friend Gene Krischer, good dude. But those guys, man, they did a hell of a lot of drugs. Yeah, what kind? Oh, true. Acid? Oh, yeah, of drugs. Yeah, what kind? Oh, true. Acid? Oh, yeah, of course.

And I did too, you know. And then, I mean, you know, he was in, you know, I was like, what's that stuff, DMT? I mean, he got serious with stuff. But he really, really loved the Downers. And unfortunately, he passed away in 1974 from a heroin overdose. And I was four years old. Yeah, so I was, it was terrible, you know, to have to go through that. But I was there, you know, to take care of my daughter for, I was a single mom.

So this is what, like early 70s? 74. So 74, you're in film school, you're working at IHOP. You got a man, you got a baby, your man dies of dope. Right. Which wasn't unusual at that time. That's right. And you're still studying film

and you finished film school I finished film school and I started a company called Rock and Reel which I believe is and I'm waiting

for someone to dispute this but I might I might be right that it it was the first music video company here in Los Angeles

and I made yeah music videos for the record companies mostly CBS and on film yeah we shot film 16 millimeter film so they weren't quite music videos they were promotional pieces to be played where well what happened was a friend of mine named Peter Philbin who is still an awesome dude used to work at CBS records and he says to me calling me up one day he goes Penelope let's let's do a music video. I said, what is that? And he goes, well, we just figured out we don't have to send the whole band around the world

and have them destroy hotels and everything. And we could just like send a piece of film. So you shoot the film. We send and make a bunch of copies and we send it around. So that was like 1973 that they figured that out. So you opened the company when you graduated in 74, 75? Yeah, I don't remember when I graduated. They kicked me out, actually.

I graduated, but I just stayed there way, way, way too long. Oh, really? Way too long. Were there other people in your program that you still are friends with or became people that we would know? Yeah, Paul Schrader was there. Oh, yeah? Really? Uh-huh, Schrader and me. No, I think that was it.

Were you friends with him? With Schrader? Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. Actually, I think he kind of liked me. No, I think that was it. Were you friends with him? With Schrader? Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. Actually, I think he kind of liked me. That would have been exciting. Yeah, because he introduced me to Bobby De Niro, and Bobby came over to my house a few times,

and I thought, hmm, this guy's cute, man. I got something going on here. So did you get together with De Niro? Well, like I said, he visited a few times. And he comes over one day and he goes, you know, I don't think I better come over and see you anymore because Paul likes you. And I'm like, and he goes, I'm doing this movie Taxi Driver with him. So I don't think I better step on his toes. Oh, no, no problem. So were you dating Schrader? No, I wasn't. I'm like, Bobby, this is a ridiculous excuse. But later we were to find out that I was actually the wrong color for Bobby.

For De Niro. Yes. But what about Schrader? No, I was the right color for him, but I don't, he didn't, God bless him, but he wasn't my type. He's a dark dude. Well, so am I, but at least i come out of the hole sometimes you know just just to see how light it is maybe get a little color go back in comedy gone here yeah sure but uh all right so so that it seems like you were you were part of that crew or on the

periphery of that crew that was there when the entire industry was changing. Oh, yeah. And you probably felt that, I imagine. I mean, because the 70s, outside of culturally everything that's going on music-wise and drug-wise and everything else, the Hollywood system is shifting. Right, right. And you knew some of those guys, it seems. Yeah, I mean, I was kind of slipping into some parties and stuff like that. I didn't really understand Hollywood, and I didn't get to know it until I met Lorne Michaels in around 1974, three, whatever,

right before Saturday Night Live. Because he was sitting in my living room one day, and he goes, I got an idea for a TV show, maybe something live from New York. I don't know. Really? Swear to God. He was sitting there.

What was he doing in L.A.? He had a friend here named John Head. Yeah. And John lived in LA. He had come from Toronto. Yeah. He was just visiting. And he's a friend of yours?

John was a friend of mine and that's why I knew Lorne. It seems like people hung out more then. Like there was always people at people's houses. Well, that's because there was no social media. Right. There was no social media. You can't text. No cell phones.

No cell phones. Yeah. You had to actually look at each other and talk. You had to make one call and go, I'm going to come by. Yeah. Yeah. Or else you just go there. And then there were parties and people hung out.

That's right. Smoked some weed. Yeah. Talked all night. That stuff. The old fashioned way. So Lorne Michaels is at your house and it hits him that he's going to do a variety show? Well, he might have had the idea before he was at my house, but that's where he told

me about it. Uh-huh. And yeah. So he... And he was at my house, but that's where he told me about it. Uh-huh. And, yeah, so he asked me. And he was just a guy from Canada, right? Well, he had a show up in Canada. Right, the Warren and the comedy team. Yeah, and he goes, I don't know what's going to happen to my show when I leave. Anyway, so what he did was he asked me if I wanted to go to New York.

And I had my little daughter, Anna, and I said, no, I'm going to stay here. I didn't know it was going to turn into Saturday Night Live. Right. And I said, but if you need anything no I'm gonna stay here I didn't know I was gonna turn into Saturday Night Live right and I said but if you need anything I'm here so he calls me up one day and he goes I found this really funny guy Albert Brooks and I really would love it if you could teach Albert how to make movies cuz because you know how and Albert doesn't and so he can make really good movies on the show so I did I produced six movies or whatever number it was for Shining Night Live that Albert directed.

Those are great, those are great, the shorts. Yeah, I never was able, yeah, I wanted to direct and Lauren kept saying, if you write something that's good enough, you can direct for the show. And I'm like, well, that never happened. Did you show Albert how to make movies? Hell yes, I did, from beginning to end.

You sat down with Albert Brooks? Yes, I said, you put the camera right here, Albert, and the lens goes that way. And if you got a long lens, you can do this. And you can, I taught Albert how to make movies. I will say that publicly. And he would, I'm sure, agree. Yeah. But the trade-off, Mark, was great because I knew nothing of Hollywood.

Right. And Albert was born here and raised here, wherever we are. I don't know where he came from. Yeah, yeah. But anyway, he knew it inside and out. Well, yeah, he grew up in it.

Yeah. And you guys became friends as well? Albert and I were friends. I was working with him for four years and I had just left a stint with Richard Pryor, if you can believe that.

What'd you do with Pryor? Oh, wait a minute. Were you working on that fucking movie? The Uncle Tom's Fairy Tales. Yeah. That's what I was working on. Oh my God. Were you working on that fucking movie? Uncle Tom's Fairy Tales. Yeah. That's what I was working on. Oh, my God.

So you... And that thing never came together. Were you the one he hired to sit in his house and do the editing? Yes, that's me. Oh, my God. Yeah. I spent two years in the same room with Richard Pryor and four years in the same room with Albert Brooks.

You want to know why I'm nuts? But wait, that period in prior's life i mean that was when you know he was he was pretty huge as a comic he was just on the edge right really he was just on the edge he was just starting to make some money yeah and and and where did he find you he just found you i was walking with bobby and his dad across the ucla campus and bobby said oh God, look at that guy. It's Richard Pryor. And he was wearing like a long pimp coat, you know, and a hat and a leather thing.

And I said, who's Richard Pryor? And he goes, the funniest man on the face of the earth. Who said that? Bobby. Bobby, her dad. Oh, okay. Yeah. So, Bobby went up and said, hey, man, you're really cool.

And he goes, what are you doing here? I'm looking for some film students to help me make a movie. And I'm like, you found them. So, yeah, we worked with. You and Bobby did. Yeah. Bobby shot the camera and I produced the movie. Oh, my God.

What was that fucking like? Unreal. Holy shit. Because he's all jacked up. But he used to walk, Mark, he used to walk around in a samurai kind of coat thingy. At his mansion? Well, it was over on Hancock Park on Plymouth. And he had just married Shelley Bonas.

And, you know, Paul Mooney was around and all those people. Sure. And Richard would walk around with a plate of Coke in one hand and a bottle of Courvoisier in the other. And he would tell me how he wanted a movie cut. So it's changing every second. Oh, yeah, big time. Totally. And so I had to do whatever he needed, and I did.

What was the movie about? It kept changing every day. But what was the basic pitch at the beginning the premise of it was there was this white guy that had raped a black woman and that he was on trial for doing so with an all-black judge and jury uh-huh and so you know i it was a comedy how well it was a dark comedy sort of like was he basing it like around like putney swope or something like that or yeah A comedy? Well, it was a dark comedy. Sort of like, was he basing it around like Putney Swope or something like that? Yeah, it was a little more, I don't know, radical and then Putney Swope.

Because he was still just out of Oakland and stuff. And he was still sort of trying to, he was still politically minded and kind of radical, right? Oh, Richard was, definitely. Definitely. Oh, yeah, he was after the man. It was funny, though, because one day there was a knock on the door, and he said, you go answer it. I'm like, okay.

And I go to the door, and I go, Richard, it's somebody from the IRS. And he goes, tell them I'm not here. I said, okay. So I go back, and I let him, I'm sorry, sir, Mr. Pryor's not here right now. And Richard comes up behind him with a pair of garden shears, garden shears. And he's like snapping at the bushes, cutting leaves off. And he's going, I'm just a gardener and I don't know where Mr. Pryor is either. And I'm like, oh my God, Richard.

But they didn't know what he looked like back then you know what i mean he hadn't gone that public at that point yeah so that's what 73 or 74 and well actually richard told me i was pregnant and i had we were shooting and i fainted and when i woke up he's got his white pimp coat on at that point and he points down he goes this bitch you're pregnant and I said what no way and I picked myself up but he was right and so I had Anna oh my god so how long did you spend with him oh I don't know I'm all of 69 and the year 1969 no it wasn't that it was that early yes that's what I'm saying it was before he really yeah I was in film school so yeah so he just got in here probably give or take a bit yeah yeah but he was doing you know

he still had that feel of he was a big somebody you know right to all of us you know so you and mooney and bobby and you're sitting around and he's you're all doing blow and he's trying to figure out what the movie is and everything's changing. How much footage did you actually shoot of that? Well, quite a bit, actually. And we cut it together and I spent a long time because Anna was born in 69, December.

Yeah. And then Rain, his daughter, was born in July. So it was like six, eight months after that. Because I remember Anna being in the little cradle. With Rain. Next to the moviola that I was working on. And Rain was in the crib too? Rain was around.

Yeah. Yeah. That's cute. Little babies. Little babies while everyone's sweating, doing blow and cutting movies. Yeah. Hey, you know what? We survived. No, no. Look, I'm not judging. babies little babies while you're everyone's sweating doing blow and cutting movies uh yeah hey you know what we survived no no i look i'm not judging it sounds pretty exciting yeah i'm pretty crazy i'm kind of yeah on the job training yeah but what happened to the footage

well one day shelly got mad and and said you are she came down and she said, you're spending so much time on this movie, you don't care about me. And he had just bought her this really beautiful, well, although the animal lovers wouldn't like it, but it was all the way down to the floor, a red fox coat. And he had given it to her. It was sitting right over there.

And she was griping that he wasn't giving her enough attention. So, he got up and I had just shown him the whole cut of the movie. Feature. Yeah. Well, it was about an hour, a little over an hour. And he reached into the bin of the moviola, Mark,

and he tore the film into pieces about five inches long, and I was just horrified because I had just cut it. And you can't digitally put it back together back in those days. You know what I'm saying? Oh, my God. And so I'm just, like, horrified because I had just caught it. And you can't digitally put it back together back in those days. You know what I'm saying? Oh, my God. And so I'm just like horrified. Shelly got me. I ran upstairs.

And then Richard gets out and gets in his car. And she hears the car fire up. So she runs down. And I guess she was naked at that point. And she jumped on the hood of the car. And he took off with Shelly naked on the hood of the car and he took off with Shelly naked on the hood of the car and I picked up the fox coat and got in my car and chased after him because I thought well if I if I if I get to her I can give her the coat to put on right which I did oh my god so they had some fight and he said

fuck this took off she jumped on the car naked you followed them with the coat and gave it to her and she wasn't hurt no she wasn't hurt and was that the end of the movie uh no i pasted it back to yeah no you're talking richard pryor here no i pasted it back together yeah and it and it was funky and then at one point he says to me penelope we need to show this film to bill cosby and i said okay i know the story gets thicker doesn't it i said okay and he so he goes can you get one of those rooms there at ucla and i did i got a room a projection room and bill came in and we showed him the movie and richard said that he needed some money and he was going to sell the movie to bill cosby oh that was his plan he's going to sell the movie for bill cosby to produce it or to finish it to get it, that was his plan. He was going to sell the movie for Bill Cosby to produce it. Or to...

To finish it, to get it distributed. That was his coked up plan is to get Mr. Clean, Bill Cosby, what we know now makes it different. But in Richard Pryor,

at that time, the biggest black comedian in the country. Right. And a clean act, not a revolutionary. Right, right. And Richard Pryor's like,

we got this movie and Cosby's going to buy it. Well, the logic, I think, from the other side of the fence is that Cosby went, this guy could be really bad competition for me. I think I'll just take this thing

and put it away somewhere. And what happened? He did. He bought it? I think so because none of us ever heard of it ever again or no one...

So Cosby gave him money, took the print, and that was it? That's my best guess. But the deal was made, though. I didn't see that happen. I know that was Richard's intention. And was that your only experience with Cosby?

Well, there was... No, I'm just kidding. You know where that was going. Yes, that was the only experience. And then did you keep in touch with Richard after that? I remember he owed me a bunch of money, and I went over to get it from him, and he was sitting at his big old table there with his straw. You know, gravassiating his blow.

Yeah. And I said, you know, I've been working for like six, eight weeks here. You think I could probably just get paid a little bit or something? And he goes, we're not working on this movie anymore. Bye. That was it. And that was the end of it. Yeah. So, we're not working on this movie anymore. Bye. That was it. And that was the end of it. Yeah.

So, okay. So you had that amazing experience with Richard. Then you showed the young Albert Brooks, the young, sweet, non-coked up Albert Brooks. Oh, excuse me. Back up on that one. Hello. Hollywood. No, no, no.

No, but I mean, it must have been a different experience. I should let Albert tell you about that. I'd love to. I was on Twitter with him for an hour the other night. Oh, you were? I can't get him to come over here. Oh. He's a recluse.

Yeah, I know. He said I could interview him on Twitter, so I did for a little while. Oh, that's funny. It was funny. But okay, but you do walk through the paces of filmmaking with Albert and get him on his feet. And what was your credit on those films? On the Saturday Night Live films?

I don't know. Probably producer. But then I also produced a feature with Albert. Which one? Real Life. You produced that? Yes, I did.

Holy shit. That's a great movie. I asked him about that the other night. And that's when I decided I didn't want to produce anymore. That was it? Yeah.

Why? Well, because he has a history, you know, God bless him, if you can do it, go ahead, but of kind of having a girlfriend that's the lead in the movie or other way around. And so, Francis Lee McCain, he was kind of going out with, and he had given her a couple

points in the movie, and then they kind of broke up during the middle of the movie, and he said to me, you know, Penelope, I need you to go get the points back. And I'm like, Albert, I don't think that's quite fair i mean she is doing the movie and she's going to complete he goes get the points back so i go into her dressing room and i'm like do you think um maybe it would be okay if we kind of took those points back she started throwing shoes at me you know so yeah at that point i decided well why don't i try the directing thing instead of the producing thing and what did you do after that what was your first film uh the decline of western civilization that was the first documentary yeah yeah i just watched it again and oh you did yeah yeah because i got this box they gave it to you yeah they're real like i

got it twice i got the i got it before it was packaged oh and then i got the packaged version they like you mark oh. Oh, no. I loved it. I mean, I hadn't watched in years. And I just had John Doe in here about a month ago. I heard it. And it was great, right? Yeah.

He's pretty cool. But seeing him as a kid and seeing them all loopy and see the amount of time, how raw it was and how much time you gave everybody on camera and all the the the sort of um the the non-talking moments where they're just sweating and nodding and like and darby crash and all that stuff yeah i mean it was really raw man well yeah i mean it was raw partially because we didn't have a lot of money to shoot and also because you know i just kind of like things that way but who were your inspirations really when you were coming up as a filmmaker? What movies did you like?

Who were your guys? I was a big fan of Cassavetes. Sure. You know, and for documentarians, I have to say that my biggest hero is Frederick Weissman. I don't know his work. Can you hit me with a couple titles? Oh, man. Yeah.

Bootcamp. Yeah. Boot Camp. Okay. He did. His most amazing work to me is he shot inside a mental hospital, and it's called Titicut Follies. And I just love his work because he puts the camera there, turns it on, lets it happen, and lets the viewer decide if they like it or not. He doesn't try to impose an opinion you know right right so when so you studied that stuff oh big time yeah i used la and when when it came time to do like what was your involvement what inspired uh the movie where you you saw punk happening

you're coming out of the 60s and 70s this is what 79 right so so you you felt something happening in la yeah you know mark it was a time when you just didn't want to listen to the radio right there's way too much bgs and abba going on okay so sure i remember that was in high school was horrible were you yeah yeah i bet you were so cute just waiting for something yeah a little round chubby jewish face you're not chubby back then i was a little chubby. Oh, okay. Yeah. But I don't know.

It was a bad time for music. And then once I heard the Sex Pistols and started going to the punk clubs around town here in Los Angeles, I realized that I needed to shoot the scene because there was like a big shift in music at that point. Right. Punk rock just tried to tear down tradition in every way possible and i like that and i like the chaos i like the confusion i like the aggression i like the mess you know yeah yeah yeah and and they sort of welcomed you in they were you part of it in a way i mean i mean before the movie yeah i mean everybody i shot i knew already right right

right and like uh so you knew you were hanging out with john and xene you're hanging out with darby you're hanging out with what's his name claude yeah and uh what's uh fear guy what's leaving leaving yeah still talked i talked to him yesterday you did yeah he's a really uh wonderful person and we're still in touch with quite a few people from the movie you circle jerks yes we love keith and i are our friends and anna anna actually is more in touch and since we put the dvd box set together um she's been in touch with them and was able to kind of reach out to them and pull it all together so but like when you were in it like i guess it was

just because like watching the movie and the choices you made in editing and stuff it really you know the the feeling of it was was raw and it just matched the music perfectly but the way you held on on uh you know sometimes with no dialogue and not necessarily music and you were just sort of moving around and showing these kids that you really felt the time. Well, that's my Frederick Weissman effect. Because that's what he did. That was his style. And that's why he was brilliant.

And I really recommend his film to any documentarians that want to do it. All the young people that do want to do that stuff, go watch Fred Weissman's films. So was that what your plan was to be a documentarian my plan was to pay the rent and to feed my daughter and i everybody goes why did you do all these different kind of movies penelope well i did them because i needed a job well how were you going to sell that movie who was giving you money for that oh this wonderful man named um jeff prettyman and he was a uh businessman from the valley he was actually you know like my age although back then since he was so much more adult adult he because he had a job yeah uh he felt older but we're kind of the same age but my friend

ron hugo said um you know my friend uh jeff needs wants to make a porno movie so he wanted to know if you would help him and i'm like um well i'm not gonna do no porno movie. So he wanted to know if you would help him. And I'm like, well, I'm not going to do no porno movie. My mom was like so straight and narrow. You didn't do any porn? I didn't do no porno movies. You didn't shoot no porno movies. No. All right.

Yeah, I could have done a good, but I didn't do it. It was creepy. Yeah. But anyway, so Jeff gave me the money to do the first decline. Yeah. And I told him in the beginning i said it's all i need because i was going to shoot it on super on super eight mark and i said all i need jeff is like 12 grand and i can put this whole thing together right and and then it took him down to a germ

show and he goes uh this is this is more important than than we think we better keep going here and i'm like yeah he was cool you know it's like so we're gonna bump it up bump it up bump it up so it ended up costing like 10 times as much as it was supposed to but he's never bitched about it and the cool thing is years later i was able to put him in some of my movies you know like when i got actual real studio jobs oh yeah yeah i put in some of my movies he still got sag insurance so he's real happy oh that's sweet so but you you went from decline one which did 1, which did all right. It did all right. Did it make money? No, no. It didn't make any money. Poor Jeff.

But it didn't make any money, and I never made any money on it. But it was the most written about movie of 1980. So that's kind of cool. Put me on a map. Sure. On the map as a director. Yeah. And then I did Decline 2, I guess, was 1987.

What did you do between 80 and 87? I did a movie called Suburbia next. Oh, yeah. I did Suburbia. That was sort of like, it was kind of almost inspired by Decline in a way. Right. And you built out fictional characters. Who wrote that?

Did you write it? I did. Yeah. I remember that. I remember seeing that. Really? Yeah. Yeah.

A lot of people say Suburbia and Decline 1 changed their lives, which is really gratifying for me. And then after that, I did a movie called Dudes that had John Cryer in it. It was kind of a punk rock Western. And people were financing these movies. You got enough of a rap to wear. That was Herb Jaffe that financed Dudes. And Roger Corman financed Suburbia. Oh, yeah?

Along with a lovely man named Burt Dragon, who was a furniture magnate in Cleveland, Ohio, that came out here and wanted to make movies. So I put Burt and Roger together, and they financed it. Did you spend a lot of time with Corman? I spent a decent amount. You know, Roger was cool. He gave me a list like of things to do like as a director i still got that list it was it's a trip um and and you know

the first thing on the list is sit down in the director's chair as much as possible and i'm like what the hell am i gonna sit down for i learned you gotta sit down you know roger was cool yeah god bless him is he still around roger's still with us. Oh, that's sweet. Yeah. Do you talk to him? Occasionally at the Director's Guild. I see him. Okay.

So then you do those two movies. Then you do Decline 2, which I saw. And it was like, holy fuck. That movie, that made some money. Right? No. No, that was amazing. How's it going to make money?

I don't know, but it was an amazing movie. I knew guys in that. Did you really? Yeah. It was almost like you captured the essence of punk and the essence of what killed it. That movie had a profound impact on me. Oh, yeah.

Well, good. I mean, I think a lot of people, but somebody said the other day, you get credited with the birth of Grunge because you did that movie. So as a reaction to that movie, Grunge happened. Interesting. So the people were like, fuck this. Well, yeah, I guess.

But I don't know. I don't necessarily, you know, take that. When did you make the third one? 97. And what did that capture? It's more of, it's more really about homeless punks, gutter punks, you know, the crusty kids. Sure, covered with the green goo. Yeah.

With the green. I always notice that their clothes have sort of a patina of grime, greenish grime. Yeah, and we don't know if it's mold or squatter grime. I love them, though. Those are my family. Those guys in Decline 3, I love those guys. So, but after Decline 2, is that where you and Lorne regroup? Yeah, because there wasn't anybody else in Hollywood, really, that knew much about headbangers.

And Wayne and Garth thought they were headbangers. Right. So, yeah, I think part of the reason I got that gig was because Lorne felt bad that he never let me do pieces on Saturday Night Live. Have you been in touch with him during that time? Not really, but we were close enough, I think, over the years. From back in the day? Yeah, yeah. And he just calls and goes, yeah, Penelope.

Yeah, yeah. Penelope, you know, this doesn't really matter, but we're doing a movie. And if you don't mind, we can just go out to Mr. Child's after, but we talk about it, you know what I'm saying? This isn't really matter, but we're doing a movie. And if you don't mind, we can just go out to Mr. Chow's after, but we talk about it. You know what I'm saying? This is Lauren. Lauren is like, he only cares about where you're going to eat. Nothing else matters. Well, you know, we can go to Spago if you want, but forget the movies.

Let's just go and eat. So you go to Mr. Chow's to talk about Wayne's World? Something like that. So he was here? He came out to meet with you? Oh, yeah. He had that company Broadway video that was at Paramount and in New York.

And so, yeah. Do you like him? Do I like Lorne? Yeah. I have a love, you know, everybody love hates Lorne. No one admits to hating Lorne. Not on my show. Well, what do I have to lose at this point?

He got pissed at me because I wouldn't do Ladies' Man. So I didn't do that movie, and he kind of got pissed because he called me like four times. And they never called me after that. You know, I probably should have done it. But that was after Wayne's World. You know, Lorne, I think Lorne is one of those genius, crazy people. Yeah. Okay?

Yeah. And those are the people in my mind those genius crazy people. Yeah. Okay? Yeah. And those are the people in my mind that changed the world. Yeah. And I have a huge respect for him just as I do for Mike Myers and all the other brilliant comedians I've worked with. Right. You know? He's a freaky dude.

Lorne is a freaky dude. Yeah. I mean, he laughs at the weirdest stuff. Yeah. I mean, come on. Like what? You know, all the bees and the and the gigantic uh you know uh corn guys with those green giant guys i mean where the hell does that come from you know

it's like whoa but were you there when the for the first uh season taping were they like the premiere taping did you go to new york for no i didn't i wasn't there for that no any of that huh all right so okay so he takes you to mr chow's and he says you want to direct Wayne's World. Is that what you're telling me? Well, mostly the meetings were at Paramount, you know, and I was actually on, I could either get one of two jobs. I could either do a documentary about Patton State Hospital for the criminally, or get the gig to do my first studio movie, and it was my seventh movie, mind you, at Paramount Pictures.

I was not in the director's skill or anything. And I remember they had wall phones at that point. And I remember being in the mental hospital over there, and I thought, excuse me, guys, I think I'm going to go make a call. So I go and I use the wall phone, and I call up my agent while you're shooting the mental i didn't shoot i was trying to you were talking about doing the

movie you know like i said i was going to do either one or the other and i call up my agent i'm like did i get the gig and he goes you got the gig so i'm in this mental hospital and the lady over there had just to show me around it's like well there's shit on the wall everywhere because when they go and really nuts they just smear shit everywhere so i either got i either got to do i either got to do the crazy hospital movie or wayne's world and i'm not sure which one i did no there you go boom yeah it must have been an amazing experience to be given some money big money to make a big movie too when they drove me they took me to the set they picked me up at my home they had a teamster guy right there driving in a limo

and they drove me to the set and there was all these trucks and i looked at it and i went i think we must be at the wrong place we don't need that many trucks right you know because i never welcome to a union shoot exactly yeah welcome Yeah. Welcome to money and power. Yeah. So, all right. So, did you have to meet with Mike? Oh, yeah. That was all part of the process.

Mike had to give me his blessing, and that's the way Lorne does things. But with Mike, I mean, I know that I've read that you had some issues with him initially. I interviewed him. Oh, yeah? Yeah, yeah. I spent an hour with him at his place, And he was relatively candid and obviously a brilliant guy. Yeah. But I can imagine he was difficult.

You know, it was very early. He's a control guy. He is. But here's the thing. It was early in his career. First movie. First movie. He didn't really understand the process.

And he was a little insecure. Yeah. All of the geniuses are extremely insecure on is that true i think so okay you know yeah uh and a lot of them covered up with drugs and everything right mike did not mind right mike's a clean machine right but um he was okay you know dana is a pleasure to work with um it really did the shit didn't hit the fan until we were done um with the movie and unfortunately mike's dad passed away, so he wasn't around for the test screening. Yeah.

And it went really, really well. And so when he got back, he wanted to make some changes. And this is terrible. I don't want to do the story again, because I like Mike. Last time I saw Mike, the first thing he did was pull out his cell phone and give me a big hug and show me the picture of his new baby. You know what I mean? So that's heartwarming.

Yeah. And me and Mike are all good. And there was a time when it wasn't that way, but I'm good with it now because that's what life's all about is getting through those things, you know, learning those lessons and thanking the people that put you through hell. And so that's the way I feel about it. And I love Lauren. I love Mike.

And I actually kind of love you, Mark. No, I'm just kidding. Oh, thank you. Yeah, so it happened so quickly. I know. So quickly. So you did now, you wrote television as well? Yeah, I did a little bit.

I did some TV work with uh jennifer aniston yeah the thing called five and they did this huge ad campaign for it was on lifetime and i remember being in a cab in new york and and i was getting in the cab and i'm like jesus christ my picture's on top of the cab and i get in i get in i tell the cab driver hey my picture's on top of the cab he goes yeah sure lady and then i did roseanne yeah i was i was on roseanne for a season and I get in and I tell the cab driver, hey, my picture's on top of the cab. He goes, yeah, sure, lady. And then I did Roseanne. Yeah. I was on Roseanne for a season, and that was, see, that's another comedian which, you know,

God threw in my path. I mean, it's like. How'd that happen? You were writing for Roseanne? Well, this wonderful, this one story editor, this wonderful woman named Arlene Rothberg, who I don't even remember how I met. She was a manager for Carly Simon. That's what it was. I was doing music videos, and I knew Arlene Rothberg who I don't even remember how I met she was a manager for Carly Simon that's what it was I was doing music videos and I knew Arlene through that and Arlene said

you know Penelope you're just you really need to get into something here she says you're talented and you need to push yourself I'm so bad at promoting myself yeah so she got me a gig over at you know with Roseanne a story editor and the first day on the job, I was being led down the hall by the producer. And all this broken furniture and a broken computer was in the hallway. And I'm like, oh, my goodness, what happened here? And the guy goes, he goes, well, one of the writers doesn't want you here. And he's pretty mad about it. So he just tore up his room.

And I'm like, geez, this is going to be fun. Why the fuck wouldn't he want you there? It was crazy there. That whole, it was just insane. How long had it been going? Was this later in the run? It was about halfway through, I think. It was 1990.

So it was a huge hit. Huge hit, yeah. Just making money. Yeah, and I remember being in Roseanne's dressing room one day day and there were these voodoo dolls on the dresser and i'm like oh these are so cute yeah and i started to touch she goes don't touch him don't touch him we got him set up to kill somebody or you know it's like whoa crazy stuff yeah so it's so so it was not a great environment to work in no i mean again i don't want to complain i could have been back at ihop you know what i mean sure so it was interesting i look at it all like it was lessons in my life

you know and one day uh we had gone to lunch and i was in the back seat and got out of the car and as i passed the window rosanne was driving i noticed she had left her wallet in the seat of the car yeah and i said um oh rosanne you left your wallet and she turned around she looked at the wallet and she looked at me and it was just like wham she hated me really and i i'm like geez all i did was tell you you left your wallet and after that it it was wasn't happening anymore i think she was having a bad day yeah and that was it but yeah i mean we're we're friends now see each other out, and it's like all good. All good.

You know, she got skinny and everything. Why didn't you direct Wayne's World 2? Oh, because I wouldn't make the changes Mike wanted to do. And so... Were you hired on to do it? No. It never happened. Lauren said, if you don't make the changes...

Mike's going to kill me for even telling this story again. I don't even want to. But Mike said it... Lauren said it. If you don't make the changes, you're not going to be able to direct telling the story again. I don't even want to. But Mike said it. Lauren said it. If you don't make the changes, you're not going to be able to direct Wayne's World 2. And then the studio said, I said, well, why don't you guys tell him we don't want to make the changes? The studio goes, no, we want Mike to do Wayne's World 2, and Lauren wants him to go back to the show. So you have to tell him.

So I took the hit. Oh, you're the fall guy yeah okay i'm sorry i was okay yeah it's it bombed so well you didn't have to at least you didn't have to you know bury somebody or yeah it was fine and you did you did a few movies you know some of them did better than others right yeah i've had my my mega hits and my mega bombs. And outside of, you know, we're going to talk to Anna now, your daughter, about how the box set came together and your relationship. But what would you like to be working on now? What are you working on now? Well, we are, you know, she's going to finish that movie on the carnival.

The doc on your mom? Yeah. And you? Yeah. We have elements of the decline four already filmed what's that about oh i can't tell you mark i really like you i don't know if i can touch this though can i pick it back up okay that was you really like me what is it a music thing again yeah yes it is yes it is uh-huh and i the reason is because if I tell you and it's public, then anybody can go and do it. So that's why I'm trying to keep it a little bit on the down low.

Yeah. You know. What part of Los Angeles do you live in? started buying a bunch of houses so i have um and and and that's why four years ago when i uh asked anna to come to work for me uh with me i i i needed her to help me with the houses and with various other scripts and you know whatever i'm doing and she goes mom i'm not gonna i'm not gonna do it unless the first thing we do are the declined dvds and so that's why it happened because people have been wanting it forever. So you got a bunch of houses up in Laurel Canyon?

Yes, I do. Like Woodrow Wilson? Well, we've got two. One up by Mulholland, yeah. One by Mount Olympus. And two in... What, do you rent them? Yes, I do.

Oh. Yes. Well, that's nice. So you're smart. And I got a place in Santa Monica, yeah, do you rent them? Yes, I do. Oh. Yes. Well, that's nice. So you're smart. And I got a place in Santa Monica, yeah. That you live in? No, no. That you buy?

That I rent. So you did the smart thing? Yeah, I did. I accidentally dumbed out. So, you know, I had this boyfriend. He used to call me the waitress that got lucky. And he's not my boyfriend anymore, by the way. But anyway, you know, I don't know if you want to talk about this or not i want to say and i cleared it with her before i came in

with anna um about five years ago and i had uh an issue because i don't know if you know this or not but um you know uh drug addiction is pretty much genetic, oftentimes genetic. And her father had a really, really bad problem. And five years ago, she had a bad problem. And the reason I asked her to come to work for me is because I wanted to be with her every day, and I wanted to watch her. She crashed a car with a kid in it, and both of them were fine. But I made her start working for me.

And that's how the declines came about. The box set came about is because, you know. Get her back on the right path. Get her back on the right path. And she kicked ass when she did it, too. You know? Let's get her on the mic. Anna Fox, right?

Yeah. Pull it to your face. Closer to my face. Sure. Kind of like this. Yeah, it's great. Yeah. Oh, look at that.

Look at that look at that how'd i do it's good so uh anna yes sir you were you got all fucked up on drugs i did i've been there i yeah it's not fun and you have a kid as well i have three you have three kids yes one of my kids is actually an adult now which is weird grandma so uh it wouldn't now you've been clean for a little while coming up on five pretty good that's great yeah well that's a sort of touching story so were you guys close before uh the this this new relationship came or was it strained We were close in a more codependent way. Yeah. Sure.

In a more angry way from my side. So you were fighting her. More resentful. You were fighting her. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Making a lot of shit up in my own head.

Sure. About her. And then how you got fucked somehow. Yeah, right. Yeah. No, absolutely. Absolutely. How do you guys know all these things?

Yeah. You got the short end of the stick with mom. Yeah. Yeah. And so I was able to work through a lot of that stuff. Was she the only one there when you hit the, when the chips were down though, ultimately? No, no.

My husband was there. I had a lot of support. Oh, good was still together with him yes wow we've been together 21 years and he just got into the cult yeah he's playing with the cult now really yeah what's he play he plays keep uh like synthesizers keyboard guitar so you're a rock and roll girl i am where'd that come from i don't know yeah showing know. I know. Showing those movies, dragging her to punk clubs. That's what it was. Did you go? How old were you in 79?

Nine. You didn't take her to the clubs, did you? She did. She took me to a fear show one time and she set me. When you were nine? Yeah. Oh, my God. She set me up on the stage thinking that would be a safer place to keep me.

So I don't know if we were in the frying pan or the fire or what. Do you have recollection? I do, yeah. I went to X shows. I remember falling asleep in the back of the Roxy in a booth. No, in the whiskey. In a booth during an X show because it was just getting too late for my little brain. So I would just crash out in the booth.

How great was X in that movie? They are awesome. It was just like, it's so magic, man. They're still one of my favorite bands. I go to all their shows. How's she doing? Eggzine, good? She's good, yeah.

Yeah? Yeah. And now, was this your idea to release this box set? Yeah. It was. Well, we both knew it needed to be done. Really? How did you know that?

What was happening? Because it was eating away at her. Oh, really? Oh, yeah. Because the social media, too. And I'm not really out there cyber surfing as much as she is. And she came to me one day and she goes, Mom, you have no idea how much people want to see these movies. And you have no idea who you are.

And I'm like, what does that mean? And she went, people have a lot of respect for you for doing these movies you know and and the it is my life's work that's the way i look at it and not wayne's world not black sheep not any of that right but but the decline is my life's work oh my god you did black sheep too yeah and the little rascals and stuff like that. You're sweet. You've worked with a lot of geniuses. Yeah. Chris Farley.

God bless him. Oh, I did that. I think I heard a story about him that kills me every time. Yeah. This guy knew him in Chicago, I think, back in the improv days. And Chris was in town, and he's been successful. And they were up all night they did mushrooms they were drinking or whatever and apparently chris was just sitting

there and he just threw up on himself and he looked up and he said i guess i'm full oh my god no that is hilarious oh that's yeah he didn't he wasn't fucked up when we were working though no he would actually ask me if he could leave when we were working, though. No? He would actually ask me if he could leave when we were doing Black Sheep. He would ask me if he could leave so he could go to meetings, AA meetings. Yeah, everyone tries, man. It's weird.

People fight the fight and they lose the fight. I see it all the time. I'm coming up on 16. Oh, wow. So I've seen a lot of people come and go. And it's always very... So, you know, I've seen a lot of people come and go and, you know, and it's always very, it's, once you get, you know, you get into the hearing the stories and it has an effect on you, it really connects you with something very tangible about life and about struggle and about, you know, the redemption. I mean, it's like if I go to a meeting and I know I'm not supposed to talk about this publicly or whatever, but I don't care.

You know, like when I hear a story, like right, right at the moment moment where you know we're a a where they find it i'm like that's the best part of the story but yeah it's good i just thought i was terminally unique i didn't think anybody else could possibly relate to what was going on crazy right yeah no i had right no one's like me possibly understand then you walk in like everyone's like every single holy fuck one of them can you imagine when i was going through poor me when uh she when i saw that she was addicted yeah and after having gone through the death of her father because of drugs that's all i could think about my daughter's gonna die the same thing the old man did yeah and. And so it was only, you know, then that we really, really got back together,

you know, and it's hard to believe that you don't know if something's bad or good until some time has passed. And that was the most horrible time of my entire life. Was it when she was strung out? No, when she was strung out.

When she was. I was able to take it better because I knew Bobby was going to go. There was no other question about it. But was really secretive nobody could figure out what the hell was going on with me uh-huh so just a lot of concern right right like what's going on yes yes what were you doing secrets um i was taking a lot of doctor prescribed medications and the scary thing is i didn't doctor shop i didn't't go to multiple doctors for it. It was all from the same doctor and it was excessive. I don't know how they, I don't know how.

Happens. Look, I, you know. It's astounding to me that doctors can do that. Yeah. I think some of them are, are, are like, are not really clear because they just, a lot of them are not sensitive to addiction and they listen to your complaints. Yeah. I mean, you underestimate the charm of somebody in need of drugs oh yeah well i got

good at complaining sure exactly i'm still in pain still hurts yeah yeah it's more yeah more and more and you do and your dependence gets higher so you need more. Your tolerance, right. Well, so now I guess through this process of you getting sober, you guys have gotten tremendously closer. And did you cop to your shit? She must have been right about some things. She did amazing. Great. She did so much work.

She still works on a daily basis. And I am constantly noticing adjustments and change with her to this day. I was totally humbled by that experience with her. I mean, for about a year and a half, two years, all I did was cry all day long. I would go to like try to go to workout classes and the teacher would be looking at me going, Are you all right? I'd be just like snort coming down my face, you know.

Because, I mean, it was devastating to me. I didn't think I would ever coming down my face, you know, because I mean, it was devastating to me. I didn't think I would ever pull out of it, you know. And then when I got the idea to make her come to to ask her to come to work with me and she said she would if we did the decline movies. I'm like, that is so freaky. Now I understand why the decline movies have not come out before now because i needed to have this happen it brought me and my daughter closer together you know it it mended a very terrible situation and you owned the movies yes that's some that that helped yes but i could never put them out because it i it was so precious to me and I identified

so much with them that I didn't want to fuck it up. So I was just like, then I just won't put it out. You know? She really wanted to do it right. Right. It had to be right. Just right. Right.

And that's why when we met, we looked for two years for the distributor and we found Shout Factory. Oh, they're great. They did this prior box. I know. There you go, yeah. The Mel Brooks box, they're great. Shout Factory, those Foose brothers and Emmer totally rock.

And then my lawyer, David Pierce, put us all together, and that was the magic moment. We got together with them. Anna started to work, and she had to drag me into the editing room because it was like having my life flashed before me. I didn't to look at the stuff see that's why you didn't put it out that's right you're right yeah what what were you ashamed of uh no you you use that word i wasn't uh i i wasn't ashamed of anything it was a lot of um fear and hurt actually about not being able to get them released you know having controversies around

them for so many years and like what um you're exploiting people you know you you know you didn't represent me right in in the movie by the people in the movie you know and i don't want them to be unhappy you know and generally now like you were talking about people work through stuff right you know somebody said they talked to Chris Holmes the other day. He's not pissed anymore. He used to yell at me at clubs. Hey, bitch, yell me some money. Really?

Oh, yeah. You know, I was like, we paid you, Chris. He's like, well, I don't remember. Wonder why. Wow. And so a lot of people are dead, too, right? A few. They bitch, too.

Well, look, I'm thrilled that it came together. So now this beautiful box that's available? Yes, it is. June 30th? Oh, June 30. Yeah. Yeah, well, I love the shop. And it saved my daughter's life.

That's the way I look at it. Not only did it save her life, it sounds like she's working on other projects for you. Oh, she is. She is. She's going at it here. And she's really good at what she here and um she's really good at what she does and she's so good at handling people far better than me and um what is your what do you what is your role like what is what is your title right now in your mom's it's so weird

yeah i hate titles uh-huh other than dog rescuer i'm like i'll do whatever i do no she does she has a producer credit on the box set. I produce the box set. She's director. You better get used to it. Yeah, you gotta say you're a director. I was told that by a famous director. Yes, you do. Once you start directing, you say you're a director.

Oh, well then I'm a director. There you go. How'd that feel? And a dog rescuer. And a dog rescuer. Okay, so you're working on that and you guys are busy brainstorming Decline 4. and a dog and a dog rescuer and a dog rescuer yeah so they okay so you're working on that and you guys are busy brainstorming

Decline 4 yes we started shooting it a little bit already but now we had to put it aside so we could get the box sets out

but yeah well congratulations and I'm glad you guys are getting along and I'm glad you're healthy and I'm glad you're you seem to be getting

lightening up a little bit, letting things go. Penelope Spears. You know what, Mark? What? You're such a charmer. I could totally understand why the president would call you up and say if he could come and visit you. I could totally understand that. You are a total charmer.

Were you like that when you weren't clean? Were you a charmer? No. No, I was a sweaty, angry mess. Right? were you like that when you weren't clean were you a charmer no i was a sweaty angry mess i had some charm but it was it was to a very select group of people right yeah he's very passionate and just to get what you wanted exactly well we appreciate you uh talking to us and nice to talk to you okay so that's it that's our show that was That was Penelope Spheeris, her daughter, Anna Fox, there at the end. And that box set of the Declining Western Civilization available at Shelf Factory. Go to WTFpod.com for all your WTF pod needs.

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