WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 617 - Laura Jane Grace

Episode Date: July 5, 2015

Laura Jane Grace, founder and lead singer of the band Against Me!, tells Marc about her experiences as a trans woman in a punk rock world. Laura tells Marc how she got her start in music, why punk rock was such a natural fit and the many ways her life changed as she transitioned. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Lock the gates! Alright, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fucksters? What the fuckabillies? What the fuckineers? What the fuckenots?

Hi, it's Mark Maron. How are you? Are you okay? Everything good? Are you running? Are you driving? Are you on the train? Are you at home cooking or cleaning i hope it's going okay i don't know how you're listening to this or where you're listening to it i just talked to somebody

who uh who i met at a party the other night the fourth of july and she said that some of these uh episodes were were so moving that she would be moved to tears um and she had to stop listening to the podcast at work because she didn't think that when she told her co-workers she was listening to music that they were buying it and she had to keep her shit together uh at her job and i i took that as very high compliment some of these things are emotionally compelling but uh i i'm sad that i can't help her distract herself from her job anymore but uh but it was for good reason can i plug for a second because i got these shows coming up in boulder colorado friday july 24th at the boulder theater and at the paramount theater in den, Colorado on Saturday, July 25th.

And I'd like some people to go. We're doing okay, but it'd be nice if more people came. I don't always know if people know I'm coming. It doesn't seem that there's anything I can do to get the word out as efficiently as I might want to. So I'm telling you now, Boulder, Friday, July 24th, and Denver, Saturday, July 25th. That's that. That's how that goes.

Laura Jane Grace is on the show today. She is the singer for the band Against Me, a punk rock band that's been around for a lot of years. I knew nothing about them. I knew nothing about her when I got the uh the record in the mail i don't even know who who sent me the record but i put it on as i do many of the records i get most of the records i get and i listen to it i'm like damn uh this singer means business this band means business. This band means business. There's a lot going on here. There's something underneath all this. And the album was called Transgender Dysphoria Blues.

Still had no idea. Knew nothing about them. And it turns out Laura Jane Grace is transgender. And it's relatively new uh that she is laura jane grace and i became sort of fascinated with that because whatever that struggle was in my mind when i just did a little bit of research really informed this record. That this record was about, you know, real change, real conflict, struggle, and identity. And I was nervous.

I don't know if I was nervous, but I'm awkward in... I'm sort of an old guy when it comes to this the the politics around it and the social momentum and and i and i didn't know if i was going to talk right i mean i'm not saying it's new i just it's not in my everyday life necessarily it seems like the younger people uh who who kind of came up with it and grew up with it, like the woman I'm dating, Sarah, who spent a lot of time in San Francisco, and she's in her mid-30s, and it just is what it is. But I seem to have missed that, or perhaps I was just in stand-up comedy clubs my entire young adulthood and not out in the world but i was i was nervous in a way because i've i've i've

made i've i've said look you can say whatever you want this is a weird thing about about words names you know things that are that we evolve out of culturally. But this sort of reflects back to my conversation with the president and to some of the type of feedback that comes around, words, is that censorship is really cultural. There's no law saying you can't say anything. You can say anything you want. Free speech say anything. You can say anything you want.

Free speech does exist. You can say whatever you want. Just know that if you say something that is hurtful or insensitive or objectifying, hateful, you're going to feel that. You're going to have to answer to it, perhaps. But it just, it's not taken lightly and then i understand like you know there is an argument that like people shouldn't be so sensitive or or what's it what's happening people should be able to take the hit or whatnot but the truth of matter is no one's telling you you can't say anything you just might end up only hanging out with people that say that because they're the only people you can say it to.

And then you're just going to have to assess, is that the group of people you want to be hanging out with? And are we in the right place with things? I mean, I'm a comedian, so you can say words that are culturally inappropriate, hateful, objectifying. objectifying. You can say them to people that they may be in a broader sense directed at, but those people have a sense of humor about it. And that is part of your unique relationship with that person. That's fine. But if you say them, if you defend your right to say them to a large group of people, you better have a pretty good defense on some level but i had a thing uh with the word tranny i believe i talked to rupaul about this who then defended the word and got his own flack from it and and uh you know in my mind there's it just seems to me that that words come and go

that words there there it's something about a social democracy a cultural democracy that eventually you know public opinion you know moves past it out of respect for for the usually minority that was being dehumanized by the language you don't say chinaman anymore you know you don't you don't say Chinaman anymore. You know, you don't say WAP. Tranny. You know, seem like an innocuous one to even me. But as culture evolves and communities grow and demand the respect they deserve as people, maybe the slang bothers them.

Maybe it hurts their feelings. Maybe it makes them feel less than. But no one's saying you can't say anything. It's just the way cultural democracy works and social democracy works is eventually it's sort of like, well, you know what? This word is hurtful and it's dehumanizing and it's making a community of people feel shitty about themselves. It's not easy for them to begin with. But they can say it. That's just part of the way it goes. But to demand equal rights on that, well, then you're going to have to sort of really explain where that's coming from your need to say that whatever

that may be but getting back to to laura jane grace coming over i i just needed to know there was a lot of things i needed to know and there was a lot of things i needed to know about her there was a lot of things i needed to know about, you know, my engagement and interaction with transgender people. And, you know, I want to grow. I want to be up to speed. I want to be appropriate. It's hard. It's a hard shift to make around, you know, just changing habits, especially word wise.

I mean, look, it was hard. It's hard to let go of certain words, especially when they got a little punch to them. I mean, you know, it took a lot for me to let go of retard. Any of the flack I got for that was from families of mentally challenged people. It's hard for me not to use the word cunt, but I never use it for women. I only use it for men. And I'm still not quite past that. Sometimes I enjoy, uh, you know, calling a guy a cunt on Twitter. Sometimes I enjoy it and it's hard. It's hard to let go of that. Tranny was not a big one that I used a lot uh so that one wasn't hard to to shift out to rotate out

but uh you know we all missed and make mistakes i said gypped the other day and someone said you know that's that's slang is derogatory you know against gypsies and then my first response like really really is there anybody really upset about that gypped it's like jude down yeah but does that really i mean okay yeah all right okay okay okay okay okay i'll i'll be aware i'll be aware and i will and i and i can take that out of rotation because once you start doing that and once you start being aware of those words, it sort of opens you up to experience things in a new way. It opens up a different type of respect. It takes down a wall that's sort of defensive or based on lack of sensitivity. And it opens you up a little bit.

And I was very open here. it opens you up a little bit. And I was very open here. You know, I liked Laura Jane Grace's work, but I was nervous because I didn't want to be inappropriate in terms of how I handled the conversation around what I needed to talk about, which is what happened inside of you

to make these decisions? I want to know. I want to feel what you feel. I think I did all right. I think so. I've been going through stuff, doing some summer cleaning. And, folks, I do try to listen. This is the interesting thing about the, you know, sometimes things get through.

I get a lot of artwork, which I always keep, and I'm running out of space to put it up. I appreciate all of your creativity, and i'm running out of space to to put it up i appreciate all of your creativity and i'm very flattered by it even though the president saw it as narcissistic a lot of the pictures of me are pictures that you guys do uh here in the uh in the garage all the cds that come from you personally and the vinyl that comes from you personally i try to listen to uh more so the records because i'm into record cds i'll go through but i make snap judgments but i'm just telling you this sometimes things get through i will listen to all the vinyl at least once for a bit and a lot of the cds and sometimes things get through like um against me's transgender dysphoria blues it got through

and they are on tour right now. Against Me is on tour. You can go to againstme.net for tour dates. You can get Transgender Dysphoria Blues. And you can pre-order their new live album, which comes out in September. And they've got a very prolific band. There's a big catalog there.

So now I'm going to talk to Laura Jane Gray. It's winter, and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs, mozzarella balls, and arancini balls? Yes, we deliver those. Moose? No. But moose head? Yes.

Because that's alcohol and we deliver that too. Along with your favorite restaurant food, groceries, and other everyday essentials. Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence.

Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly.

This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. I actually put all my stuff in storage right before I left on this most recent jaunt, just because I was like, my landlord wanted to raise the rent, and I was just like, screw it, this is ridiculous. Oh my God. Paying like whatever for an apartment. That's crazy touring.

Yeah, well, that's what you got to do to make a living as a musician, you know? But I mean, like, do you have a house? Well, I own a house with my ex who i'm going through a divorce with um so like i own a house in florida that i rented out what part of florida saint augustine oh really but beyond like having a house there i've been in chicago for since like 2013 or whatever in an apartment in an apartment yeah in an apartment, yeah. In Chicago? Mm-hmm. Since 2013? Yes, August of 2013. That's when he split up with the wife? That is, yeah.

Uh-huh. That's when it all went to shit. That's when everything got fucked? Yeah. Life has a tendency to do that to you sometimes. Well, you've gone through some dramatic shifts in the last few years. That's understand it, huh? Yeah.

But here's the thing is what I was telling you is I know we have a lot of common fans and people were excited to have us talk is that I don't know where I got the new record, the Transgender Dysphoria Blues,

but it was sent to me by your label or somebody. Well, we're our own label, so I don't know. I don't know how I got it. Yeah.

That's cool you have it. You didn't send it to me? No. Uh-uh. I mean, unless maybe our management did or publicist. I don't know. Or something like that.

All I know is that I get a lot of records. And I get a lot of records sent to me. And I listen to them. And I put this one on and I'm like, well, this sounds fucking real. And I'll listen to records that people send me. And they don't always click for whatever reason. I do too. Right?

And you just put it on and you're like, I gonna listen to this again yeah but this one i'm like i gotta listen to it again and i was like there's some earnest angry interesting shit on here cool and then and then i kind of did a little research into you and i'm like who the hell's this person well and then then like when i when i i think i actually tweeted that i like the record and then everybody was like oh you gotta have laura on and and then i realized that you have this following and you've been you've been around for a while and then i had to go back as i do and i gotta buy the other records so you sold a few records in the last few days but the interesting thing about it is like the the and i'll try to look up dysphoria most people trip up and say dysmorphia

or some other variation of that right why i didn't know what exactly it was but it's like a fairly familiar state to any creative person it's a uneasiness and a depressive uneasiness right kind of the opposite of euphoria okay so but it seems to me that you know despite the the title of this record and whatever you've gone through recently that like for for someone who was gravitated to punk rock dysphoria was something you live with all your life it was yeah for sure i mean it was what pushed me to punk rock just because punk rock seemed like such a it was it was like armor you know like studs and spikes on your leather jacket and a mohawk right yeah so where but where'd you grow

up south florida naples florida see i don't know anything about it i know florida like sometimes i get a little weird about florida but my mother was a lot of people too other than a lot of people's mothers live in florida right but like uh but like there's there there's an element down there in my mind like and they people have gotten mad at me for busting on Florida, but some people, there's like, it's sort of the end of the line down there. Yeah. In a lot of ways, mentally and physically for some people. For sure.

And well, that was very much the perspective growing up of like, you are at the end of the line and the only way to look was North. Right. Unless you wanted to swim, you know, like you had to go North, especially Naples. Yeah. And that was like, you know, pre-internet days. So it's like no bands ever toured down there. There was no pre-existing punk scene.

Yeah. That was when you really had to kind of invent your own thing when you were a kid. How old are you? I'm 34. Uh-huh. And what was your family like? I mean, what were they doing down there? Why'd you end up there?

I grew up in a military family and my parents divorced when I was like 12, 13 years old. So I moved with my mother and my younger brother in with my grandmother who had retired to Naples, Florida. So that was it? Yeah. And that doesn't sound great. No, I mean, it was not a good experience. Well, we moved from Naples, Italy to Naples, Florida. And I'd lived in Italy then at that point for like four or five years, you know, really had gotten accustomed to that because it was probably like from grades like second grade until like fifth, sixth years, you know, I really had gotten accustomed to that because it was probably like from grades like second grade until like fifth, sixth grade, you know? And there's an American base there?

There is. And what was your dad in the military? He was a West Point graduate, so he was a major in the U.S. Army. Wow. Is he still around? He retired. He did 20 years, and then he retired outside of Fort Leonard Wood in Missouri. Really? And do you guys talk? He hasn't talked to me since I came out.

Or we haven't talked since I came out, yeah. Since you came out. Is there a process? Is there two processes of coming out? I guess there is when you're somebody who does interviews and has a public persona. There's the private and the public, sure. Right. But when you say coming out as a transgender person?

Yeah. And that becomes relatively obvious eventually, right? Well, that was kind of the point, was to go ahead and come out before anything was relatively obvious. Because I thought that that would, especially having, I play in a band, I have a career, and people in the punk scene are in general kind of homophobic than right sexist so if i would have not come out and just started like wearing eyeliner or expressing femininity i think people would have been like you know way more unaccepting that if i had just said look this is what's going on to me can you please fuck off while i go through this and just like you know maybe it'll be weird sometimes i might not look totally great all the time you know like this like this is what it is. So you know ahead of time. So, but it's sort of funny though,

like in my mind that, that like real punk rock purists, if you just started showing up with eyeliner and stuff, they might, you know, they might even think that you were moving towards some other type of music. Oh, totally.

Well, like Green Day is a great example of that. I mean, that was the first punk show I ever went to. Yeah. People make fun of Billy Joe sometimes for making, for wearing eyeliner. Yeah. Yeah. Which is totally of Billy Joe sometimes for making, for wearing eyeliner. Yeah, yeah.

Which is totally homophobic. Yeah. And totally transphobic and fucked up, you know? But it's also, it's also like, I think it also represents another kind of music. I mean, you see, you know, makeup more in goth and in rock and roll. And I think maybe punk is sort of supposed to be just,

you know, raw. Right, I guess. I mean, it depends on what kind of perception of punk rock you had. And like, cause like, if you look back at like lineage of punk bands, like Suzy Sue and the Banshees, they were a punk band. Sure. You know, like, I mean, even the Cure had elements in punk rock starting out, you know, and like, there used to just be a wider variety of what was able to interpret.

Mike Ness, Social Fucking Distortion, Another State of Mind is like, you know, covered in eyeliner, the whole thing. Because I talked to him, who did I talk to? Mike Watt recently. And there's like, because there's a punk rock style, but the original punk rock was really just about doing whatever the fuck you wanted. Totally. And that's what attracted me to it

because that seemed like it would be more of a safe space. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And a lot of the like, especially like late 70s English peace punk bands that were really into anarchist politics and stuff like that i was really drawn to that just because that was even way more liberal and like way more about like you know gender liberation and smashing you know but smashing the state but they happened to like

earlier i mean you're coming to that they're already nostalgia acts by then right by the time you were coming to it like they've been around a while yeah although it's funny to think about that stuff because i think about that in like relative like relative to my own career yeah like okay you know almost been a band for 20 years and how like has it been 20 almost yeah and like that that it doesn't seem like as wide of a gap even though it is as long to compared to when i was listening to those bands from the late 70s early 80s right like only 10 years difference i guess that's right yeah yeah yeah so okay so your your dad and mom split you're 13 he's in the military he hasn't talked to you now what in like three or four years

yeah but you were talking before that yeah i mean you know it's tough like when we when my parents split up you know like there was a definite separation and you know that like it was a dividing thing in my family yeah kind of in ways the relationship never really recovered, you know? Were you close when you were a kid? Yeah. I mean, you know, the military is really a thing, you know? And if you're someone who's, you know, went to West Point and has been in the Army for a long time, like, you know, generally being really emotionally expressive or close, you know,

and, like, open, like, that is not a thing. You know, like, it's just kind of a cold, especially when it's a German background too. Oh really? He comes from a German background? But what about your mom? What kind of background? Well, no, I mean like how was your relationship with her?

Was she the buffer? Yeah. And I mean, I was really close with my mom. I was first kid or whatever. I had a younger brother, but. There's two of you? Mm-hmm. Where's he at?

He's in South Florida. Really? Uh-huh. He's like, see, if I wouldn't have started smoking when I was 13 years old, I would have probably been his height. He's like 6'7". You're pretty tall. Yeah, 6'2".

But again, that would have been another five inches if I wouldn't have started smoking. But he cracks safes for a living, and he owns his own business installing high-end security system for people and security systems in South Florida. So you guys get along? Yeah, we do. All right. So there you are. You're like, so you get there when you're like 12 or 13 in Naples.

And what's it like down there? I can't picture it. Is it just a wasteland or is it pretty? Well, starting then was a real period of economic growth where during that period of time, I think there are more millionaires per capita in Collier county florida than anywhere else in the u.s and the two cities in collier county are naples and amokley amokley being a migrant farm worker community with like extreme levels of poverty right you know um so there was a real contrast and in general like it was a retirement community so it's an older republican white retirement community yeah that doesn't want

youth to be that to be seen or heard right you know so there wasn't there just wasn't a lot to do besides like get in trouble you know right and what was that what was the kind of trouble you were getting into um you know it like small shit like vandalism like you go to a golf course and you kick all the sprinkler heads off and stuff like that and then you know we used to rip head hood ornaments off a car yeah or stealing the sprinkler heads off and stuff like that. We used to rip hood ornaments off of cars. Yeah, or stealing chromies off of tires and stuff like that. Or taking a battery and throwing it at car windows. Dumb shit.

Pellet guns. We had a pellet gun. Yeah, paintball guns, all that stuff. And what was the music that... How did you form your little crew? I mean, because I don't know what year what year are we talking about so 1993 or so something like that so were you the uh the odd balls the that you and your friends were the you were the punk rock kids totally and we went like i mean my group of friends that i kind of went into high school with like we met in middle school

and like at first it was like you know listening to classic rock bands led zeppelin the doors pink floyd it's always there all right and then like but that like there was a real disconnect with the like kind of hippie movement that we associated with that because we got beat up a lot and it seemed like that that was like by jocks you know like we we were the freaks you know like and you sit together at lunch but not the hippie freaks well it was all just like you were the freaks they like right it's small population so it's like the skaters the hippies the goth kids everybody sat together but punk rock appealed because it was seemed a little bit more about fighting back and like even if you're gonna get your ass kicked throwing up a couple punches in yeah so that like and did you yeah totally totally i mean you know to varying

results but it's it felt better to fight back you know yeah and and what bands were you listening to uh the first first record is never mind the bullocks sex pistols and then that led into the clash and like there was all those classic punk bands that you first listened to like the dead kennedys and the misfits and then we kind of like gravitated towards what was more going on in the u.s of like bands out on the west coast like bad religion and rancid and no offense yeah yeah yeah and then like just like you know you back then you'd read the liner notes and see who they thanked and then you'd go buy those records right and if you liked them you'd see who they think and they were records

right yeah right weren't they still records in they weren't cds yet i did cds and vinyl but i've always preferred vinyl so when did you start playing guitar? When I was eight years old. Oh, really? Mm-hmm. So who taught you that? I mean, who gave you the guitar? I just, I saved up money mowing lawns, and I like got five bucks a pop, and that's all

I had. Where were you when you were mowing lawns? Not in Italy? Yeah, in Italy. Really? I ordered it out of a Sears catalog. You were the American lawn mowing kid? Yeah.

You ordered it out of a Sears catalog. You were the American lawn mowing kid? Yeah. You ordered it out of a Sears catalog? Were you time traveling? I did. It was $125. You got a Sears guitar? It was a Harmony guitar. Oh, Harmony. Yeah, yeah.

Is that a Sears? That's a Sears brand? It was out of the Sears catalog. Oh, shit. And was it an electric? No, it was an acoustic. That's like time traveling to me. Like a Sears catalog. I didn't even know they still... That was your idea? I guess you're eight. What do you know? Where did you get it? electric no it was an acoustic you what that's like time traveling to me like a serious catalog

i didn't even know they still that was your idea if i guess you're eight like where did you get it we you know when you when you're an american family that moves overseas you're really cut off and especially like then you're still really dependent on people back home and ordering things from back home oh so someone got it for you no like i say that you get the catalog i saved my money and you sent away for it. Yeah. Uh-huh. And I had to wait like a month. And then they sent the guitar. And how'd you learn?

I took lessons from an army wife at first. Oh, really? Uh-huh. And she just taught on base and. Yeah. No, no. She taught at her home. Like we lived off base or whatever.

And so. And you went over there and you learned your basics. Yeah. Just like once a week. G-A-C-D-E, then the bar chords. You know, it's messed up,

though, because like learning on an acoustic like that, especially when you're a kid, when you don't have strong fingers, like those guitars are basically

like made for archery. Like the action. The steel string, right? The steel string? Yeah, totally. And the strings are like

an inch off the fretboard. It's hard to press down. So that was really discouraging at first. What were your first songs? I wasn't really interested at first. Because it was all like, you know, whatever. You saved up for the guitar, wouldn't you?

I know, but the book they gave you, it was just like, you know, it was like... Oh, like Michael wrote his mother's song? Yeah, like I didn't want to play that. So like I stuck with it, but I never felt like, I was like, oh, I'm bad. I can't really play this because I was totally uninterested.

But I stuck with it. And then like finally when I was like maybe 11 years old, I started playing in bands. Just with my church group, we started up bands. What kind of church were you in? It was a Presbyterian church that my mother brought us to. I have no idea what that is. It was just more like when she divorced, she wanted to be social, and there was childcare. Sure, yeah.

You didn't grow up with the weight of God on you? Not heavy, no. Oh, that's good. Yeah. So now when do you start to feel different? I felt different my whole life. Those are like earliest memories, you know? Uh-huh.

Like earliest memories? Like what are we talking about? If I can like think of my three earliest memories, which are like kind of just, you know, those weird disconnected visual impressions, I remember maybe being three years old and like standing on the top of a staircase as the first one. And then I remember probably four or five years old, Fort Hood, Texas, standing in the living room in front of the TV and Madonna was on the TV and feeling a sense of identity in watching Madonna perform. And it was like a weird moment of both like,

oh, that's amazing you know she's performing she's dancing she's singing you know like this is crazy music I've never heard before and I like the melody sure but then also a feeling of like I could do that too and immediately recognizing but like wait I'm not that's not how people perceive me there's a disconnect and how old were you four or five huh and then and then what how else did that then after that i distinctly remember like within a year or two after watching rosemary's baby and like feeling oddly drawn to mia farrow because she had like the pixie haircut and i was like oh well wait maybe there's a chance for me because i have hair like that that's how my parents get my hair cut.

So maybe I'm not wrong. Maybe I could grow up to be like that. Yeah? You could grow up to be a woman? Grow up to be Mia Farrow in particular. Yeah. All right. I had lofty ambitions.

Madonna or Mia Farrow. I fell a little short. Good role models. It's not over yet. Yeah. All right. So you're playing guitar. You're 11, and you're starting to decide what music you like, 11 or 12?

Yeah. Well, no, I mean, I got a Walkman when I was eight years old, around when I first got a guitar, and I started buying metal tapes. Like, I got Def Leppard, Hysteria was the first. So that was your music? Yeah, and that was like, I was drawn to them because I saw in them ambiguity in their sex. But you also liked the music.

I did, although some of it really, you know. Well, yeah. But I liked looking at them really. But I mean, you could find plenty of ambiguity in rock music. Sure, sure. Yeah, yeah. But you felt that. Right.

But at the same time too, because I lived overseas, I was totally cut off from MTV. Like I really was stumbling into stuff on my own. So like I found Hit Parader magazine. I looked at the pictures and I was like, I can't tell if these are boys or girls yeah you know like and then sure I'd go and buy the tapes and and some stuff I'd like and some stuff I wouldn't but you found that a lot of what compelled you was the uh the androgyny of the people yeah but then like the bands I was really drawn to was like the had more of the nihilistic attitude like Guns and

Roses in particular was like my band when I was a kid so they're a good band they had a appetite it's great and i stand behind illusions too should have been illusions should have been one record but other than that right lies was good i mean i i got no problem with i don't know what happened with chinese democracy but i bought it so i can criticize it i know i bought it yeah it wasn't i like it. No. I don't know that I listened to it twice. I listened to it a bunch of times. Illusions I listened to twice. So what was it? So you reinventing Axl Rose was your first record.

Right. Now, all right, but I don't want to miss a time chunk here. So you lock into Guns N' Roses at like 11 or what? Eight years old. Eight years old. That's when Appetite, when it first came out? 88. It came out at 87.

I was eight years old. And he's a great fucking singer. Uh-huh. That's when Appetite, when it first came out? 88, or it came out 87. I was eight years old in 88. And he's a great fucking singer. Uh-huh. Compelling. Totally. All of them are Duff and Slash. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, like I wore a Sid chain because Duff wore one before I knew who Sid Vicious was.

Right. So you were pretty primed by the time you got to the Pistols with Rock. I was, I knew a little bit, yeah. A little bit? You know everything if you listen to Guns N' Roses and you lock in at eight. It's all there. But when do you start realizing that this is your future

and when do you start feeling, like I'm making an assumption in that as your creativity evolved and became what it was in these first few records that your frustration with yourself must have been happening alongside of that right um well i mean i made the decision was what i was going to do really young music wise like yeah like i dropped out of high school when i was 16 i never had any doubts i just knew this was going to i was going to do one way or

the other even if i was unsuccessful at it this is what i was going to do. But you never started playing metal, though. You never started playing metal. No, no. Like, the first bands I ever had, like, by that time, it was more grunge bands. Like, we'd cover Nirvana songs and Pearl Jam songs. Oh, yeah? And then, like, at the same time, doing, like, Pink Floyd songs

or Beatles songs. And then that was, like, and then we got into punk rock. And that's how you learn how to play, I guess, basically, with other people is play the hits, play the classics. It's stupid how I can still remember to play songs from then. Like, I know how to play Evenflow, but I don't remember how to play some of the songs I wrote, like, five years ago.

Really? It sticks with you, right? It does, yeah. That's why it's a hit song. Yeah, I guess so. So, because, like, I mean, like, when I listen to, like like some of the older stuff like it's sort of fascinating to me that they're you know that the the the punk rock form like it

feels a little familiar like you like in in the sense that like the clash or like i can tell where you're coming from but you're you're singing is so you, kind of raw and brutal and full of a type of intensity and anger that is rare. And, you know, you don't sound like anybody else. But, like, in looking at the arc of your life, I have to assume that the anger that you were feeling became much more defined with this new record. For sure. But also, I mean, it was, like, it was there. I mean, you mentioned that a second ago. but also I mean it was like it was there I mean you mentioned that a second ago like really what like made the anger levels like grow and dysphoria grow as like my band progressed

was as we experienced success and as you're further cast into because when we started out we started out with really like specific ideals of being against all that you know and against me it comes from what uh feel being 17 years old and feeling like everything in the world's conspiring against you and then you're pushing back with this music sure that was my outlet and you know we were really starting out of the way the band started as far as on an acoustic guitar it was because like i didn't have an electric guitar so i played an acoustic guitar the drummer didn't have a drum set so we dumpster dove pickle buckets made a drum set and that's what we did and we didn't have places to play because it was south florida so we busked on the street and then eventually

like you met other people at least you were set up for that yeah well that was the idea you know like and that was what it was modeled after well that's how well that's I think that's

that's how Billy Bragg sort of started I think and the Violent Femmes and there were bands totally and I was heavily heavily influenced by both of them oh really

yeah that was part of the beginning yeah yeah yeah so you're busking and you're doing this you're doing your original songs yeah and they're sort of so those are two a couple of your influences but there's some clash in there sure the clash and again like all the peace punk bands are crass the mob yeah flux of pink indians but that comes a little later you can't really do that with an acoustic and

buckets right well when i was 14 years old i got arrested and it was like life-changing experience for me because i was like 14 years old beat up by the cops charged with resisting arrest and a battery on an officer tried as an adult convicted as a felon by the time i was 15 years old for what i went to the beach fourth of july there was i like ran into the wrong cops i was a dirty smelly punk kid and i got lippy with them when they got up in my face and then they beat me up and were you playing in a band at that point or no? Yes, I was playing in a band, not against me, but I was playing in a punk band at that point. I had like black spiky hair.

So this was almost like a rite of passage. Yeah, I guess. I mean, I didn't see it coming, but yeah. So I mean, so what happened? Why was it a life changing experience? I mean, because I was fucked. I was 15 years old and I was a twice convicted felon. Like I had really already sealed my deal as far as what my options were for the future.

Like I was tried as an adult. But you didn't do jail time, did you? No, I got like 180 hours of community service and I was on house arrest for a whole summer. You know, I was like low jacked. So where the fuck did you do that much community service? I worked in a hospital and I volunteered in the cardio wing, like giving people like jello cups and water

after they'd been walking on a treadmill. The punk kid with the jello cups? And then I did Habitat for Humanity and then I did like- You could choose

what you could do? Well, I just had a lot of hours so I had to do a bunch of stuff and then there was this place, The Conservancy,

that was like a nature conservancy. Well, that must have been, some of those sound pretty good, like they could have been good experiences? I got great things out of them them but it was like when you're 15 years old and you're in that situation you're scared shitless and my mom didn't have any money and like they're threatening you like you're gonna go to jail or you're gonna go to juvie you know and

i didn't want to do that you know i wanted to hang out with my friends and play music right and so like i immediately had that weight on me you know and and it was at that point because up until then like i had already gotten into drugs and alcohol and stuff like that what was your shit um i really liked tripping on acid and i really liked coke and i really liked smoking weed and at that point when i got arrested i just like sobered up and i was like 16 years old trying to get focused get on track and and that was when i started playing music and that's when i or like more seriously and stumbled into against me so you stopped doing the the drugs mm-hmm and just full-on focus so that's where all that insane that you know vocal energy comes from you just the clarity of a pure anger I was

pissed yeah but then like it sort of it seems to me like you know and i'm you know maybe being presumptuous or or maybe not fully you know recognizing the the arc of it it just seems like you know the first couple records are full-on and then at some point around the third record you you did become a little self-aware and that you were shifting your your your perception of what you were really doing creatively sure yeah and a lot of that just had to come, it came with success because like we came from the scene that was really about this certain thing,

DIY punk ethics. Who is, and you guys, you honored that by, like there was no punk scene. Like you did what a lot of the bands, a lot of the guys I've talked to. We started it ourselves, yeah. Put out our own first records. But this is two decades,

I mean, this is a decade later from the original wave of those guys, right? least this is like well like you you did have the internet yeah yeah totally and but it was coming as it was all happening and file sharing was happening and that was all changing but it was you know like i was dealing with a much different perspective than people must have assumed i was dealing with and part of that for me was always being recognizing like that i was dealing with dysphoria you of that for me was always being, recognizing like that I was dealing with dysphoria, you know,

or like that I had that. And so it like always skewed my perspective. But that's retrospect. This is retrospect that you're saying that with. Like, I mean, Sure, sure.

No, but it's attached me. You know, like I saw things like, okay, like this is my circumstance, right? This is what I'm facing. I'm playing in this band. These people are now

calling me a sellout because we moved to a slightly bigger indie label.'re giving us all this money all of a sudden we got a lawyer we got a manager we got a booking and your original fans are fuck you and you yeah and they're like slashing our tires being physically abusive attacking us hold on so when you start out when you put your yourself did your first record right first like two like a seven inch and a 12 inch we put out out, just like, you know. So that's righteous to that crew, the DIY punk rock crew. And they can buy them at your shows, and they can buy your T-shirts.

Right, it's like $5 for a 12-inch. And you're playing on bills. Did you spend any time opening for acts that you respected, that kind of shit? We booked our own tours and went out and did our own tours. So there was never any of that. Playing in house shows, playing in basements, playing on the streets still. Sometimes you get a club gig, but it was all booking it yourself for the first like four or five years.

But there was never the sort of like, you know, a bigger punk band came into town, they needed a punk opener. Well, in Gainesville where we moved to, No Idea Records exists. And No Idea does a really good job of documenting the punk scene there. And they've had a couple bands like Hot Water Music and Less Than Jake that have gone on to do things yeah you know they took a notice of us we put out a record with them and that was like the first step to a really small indie and already then people decried like sellouts but then well then we moved to like fat records which is like

slightly bigger you know indie a band that you know run by fat mike who we had grown up listening and then that was like even more intense wave of like your sellouts you know like total which why because no effects was sellout at that point because it was a bigger indie and then we started working with like who the fuck are these people they're punks no i get it but like at a certain point do you realize like we might have to lose they'll come back around well no i mean it was more just realize the hypocrisy of it but once i saw that hypocrisy of it then i like was like oh fuck this that you know like do the punk thing think for yourself these are my circumstances this is what i have to do these are the decisions that are right for me there's nothing wrong with doing the things i

want to do right and so i wanted to be in a band and play for larger audiences and as you do that more and more because we were touring like you know fucking nine months out of the year playing like 200 some odd shows a year like driving ourselves into the ground and most of the time we were homeless you know like so eventually you're like oh it'd be nice to have an apartment you don't be grown up a shower my own shower great you know but like you know when i so like that so around the third record that's the new label well that's when like yeah and we started getting major label attention and we got courted one whole round and like turned it down, got a bigger deal from like our indie and then went and like finally ended up signing with Warner Sire. So what was that record?

Which record was the first record on the new label? The first record on the major label was New Wave. Okay. Okay. So because I listen to a few of the songs and it seems that as you're saying that these punks sort of abandoned you or they swashed your tires or they were mad that you were sellouts, that you also realized the limitations of that outlook. Sure. Totally. Totally. Like you were maturing along with your success in a way. It wasn't killing you. No. And it was healthy. That was the one good thing I had going for me. So now,

so this, the dysphoria, because like, you know, I imagine I had dysphoria for one reason or another. So like you're malcontent, you know, at that juncture

where, you know, you blow out, you blow yourself out on all the punk rock shit and obviously you get a little older, a little more successful and you're still feeling a little shitty,

then it starts to become about something else not just about you know class warfare or or well then the dysphoria comes back yeah because that was the thing is like you know you jump into this where you're like oh shit our band's getting like traction we're gonna go off and we're gonna tour for three four years or something and then you're still unhappy and at first you were able to push the dysphoria aside because you're able to solely focus on that you know like i'm going to be this person i'm going to do this how are you operating within the band i mean how where was your sexuality at um i mean it was there you know well i got i got married when i was 19 years old and i was married from when i was 19 and we probably became estranged from each other

when i was like 21 yeah so then like 22 to, I was going through the whole like, oh shit, my marriage just fell apart. Like really throwing myself. This is the first marriage or the one that just ended? My first marriage. So you've been married twice? Yes. Okay.

And so then like. Yeah. And so 22 and 23, 24 were like the lost years of coming out of a marriage and being really fucked up. It's worse. Sleeping out, sleeping around a lot. Yeah. And you're in a band that's touring a bunch and just doing stupid shit.

Right. So where'd you meet that woman? At a bar. Well, no, where did I meet her? No, I met her at an activist info shop at the Civic Media Center, I think. An activist info? Shop.

Oh. A non-corporate press library, lending library, an activist space in Gainesville, Florida called the Civic Media Center is where we met what was that place? what did they have there?

I volunteered there it was like an activist organizing center like everything from like a women's group to like you know radical bike workshops

to activist training like a full service activist training center? totally totally exactly whatever what a full-service activist training center? Totally, totally, exactly.

What are you fighting against? These are the basic rules. Capitalism, capitalism. Oh, that's a big one. That's a big one. We're going to have to get a few books out. A few booklets on capitalism. Noam Chomsky's luckily written a bunch. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Good luck with that, getting through the Noam Chomsky's. Did a bunch yeah yeah yeah good luck with that getting through the noam chomsky's did you read all his i did i read all the emma goldman all the peter kropotkin all that stuff so you were you just got a head full of it oh yeah i i mean i i used to volunteer there and i booked shows there they'd let me book punk shows and that was where against me just like played all the time because that was the only place so let us play so your singular political agenda was against capitalism um in your mind i mean at the time it was really against like you know the world trade organization at the time of like the 1999 like riots in seattle all that protest movement was really happening and that was like all my friends were part of that

i had like connected with an activist group in florida doing food not bombs yeah and we organized into something called fran which was the the Florida Radical Activist Network. Uh-huh. And we'd meet up like once a month, all talk about what we had going on in our area.

Right. And then organize like rides to bigger protests or demonstrations against like. So you've been an activist all your life, really? In one form or another, yeah. Huh.

So that's pretty earnest, man. That's some earnest punk shit. Because like, I'm sort of fascinated with the whole, the whole sort of like now like as i said at the beginning this record you know when i when i read the lyrics and i listen to it the activism you know is not it's not it's very personal that because of of your

transformation that you know you've resolved some things in yourself and you realize there's still a lack of understanding and there's still a lot of reasons to be angry about how you're interpreted. Sure. It's very personal. So you're bringing that same intensity that you saw global injustice to this very sort of, your heart's connected to this in a way that is uh non-negotiable i'd like to think that it's a little smarter even than like the politics i was singing about when i was younger i i mean

if you're familiar with like embrace ian mckay's band your emotions are nothing but politics and this is something that's really real to me the things i was singing about when i was younger while i felt the way i felt and still agree with it I didn't have as big of an understanding or a worldview at 19 years old as I do now at 34, having been around the world a number of times. Well, yeah. I mean, I used to do political talk radio, lefty talk radio. And at some point I realized that,

I don't know if I'm angry about these specific things. I know that I'm angry. So let's address the existential and personal foundation or the core of that anger. Exactly. And do it. So you were married once and that fizzled out and then you went through heartbreak. When do you start wrestling with the desire to become a woman?

Well, like 2005 or so, I'd gotten really fucked up on cocaine. And then 2005, I was like, I'm going to be sober. I got sober. So you went back to drugs. Yeah. Cleaned myself up. And like at the same time, after having gone through a bout of like the way it worked back then was like these experience of extreme dysphoria and then like binging and purging and being like, no, you know, like I'm going to be a man. This is what I'm going to do.

I'm going to pretend I do not feel this way. And that coincided with like signing a major record label deal. And then you're swept off on that roller coaster. But then come down from that, you know, when, like, you do two records and they're not a success or anything like that. We went through this fucking lawsuit with an ex-manager. Things like, you know, like, friends die. Shit happens in life.

And you realize, like, I still feel this way. You know, I'm fucked up you're uncomfortable and and i like i'm living this two separate lives i'm married i now have a kid we bought a house you know like and i don't know who i am you know right so when you did that and when you got married that second time you know was it you know a were you reacting to your feelings did you think that by doing that you know you could sort of train yourself into that life i think about it often just because i wonder if it's like subconscious you know because i would hate to think that but i was really like you know i got focused i got sober i got healthy i was like you know i wasn't fucked up making bad decisions and

then i fell in love and i will i didn't want to fall in love but i fell in love and it was more that like i fell in love and i ignored really being totally honest probably about who i was as falling in love you know and just like suppressed suppressed but that made me more and more unhappy as especially as like you're kind of pushed into fitting this cis-normative lifestyle of husband, wife, kid, cars in the garage. It's weird how powerful that is. Yeah. And then you're like, oh my fucking God.

The walls felt like they were coming in more and more. When you said you questioned or you were, in retrospect, trying to understand what falling in love meant. Now, has your sexual orientation always been towards women? Yeah. And still? Mm-hmm. So that must be...

I mean, that's not to say I haven't made out with a couple guys or anything like that. No, no, no. I know, but I'm just like, in terms of, and I'm not, it's not a judgment thing. It's just like, I'm just wondering where the fight was. Like when you say you fell in love with her and you sort of question whether or not that was a sort of like,

you know, whether it was earnest or not, or whether you just subconsciously trying to fit into something. It was just, I just wondered what the whole dynamics of that would be. But you just- Well, because you're just being, you're existing. And at the time too, especially like, I mean, you have to realize that I probably didn't hear the word transgender until I was like maybe even 26 or 27.

It's pretty new for everybody. Right, right. So like, I didn't understand myself. It's not like I was carrying around. I still don't fucking understand myself, but it's not like I was carrying around full knowledge of like, this is who I am and I have to hide this from everybody. It was like, oh my God, I have all these feelings that are tearing me apart inside and I don't know how to reconcile them with life and what I'm doing and who I am, you know, and like, I don't know what I'm supposed to do with this.

The idea of transitioning even like was a far off concept that I'd only ever like, you know, maybe heard about once or twice. I think we're all, you know, like from my, where I'm sitting, you know, I am not like I'm 51 years old. So, so I missed the movement in a way of, of, of the trans movement. I mean, I knew it existed, but now it's like really, you know, in the forefront of, of, you know, gender politics and also the gender discussion in this country. And I'm still like an old man when it, like, you know, I had to be schooled on the word tranny.

Yeah. And, uh, and, you know, and, and then I, you know, I talked to RuPaul who loves that word, but, but like, I understand. It's a very like divisive word. No, I know. And then I get why. And like, and I'm in no position necessarily to use that. I don't need to use that word, you know, but RuPaul can.

Right. Uh-huh. You know, but, um, all right. right so so now you're married and now these feelings are becoming oppressive and and and completely uncomfortable so do you tell your wife i did i came out yeah uh-huh well what does that mean that you when you come out like that what do you say well like i went you know like i dealt with these feelings to the point where i was like this isn't going away you know so i was like what what is it i need to be a woman or i need yeah like just like you know transitioning the idea of whatever that meant of like coming out with the way i felt right and saying like look i'm transgender or i'm a transsexual this is the way i feel i want to

transition i don't know what that means but i want to transition like i mean the the level of of uh information out there was like pretty like it's like youtube testimonial videos you know like a couple fucking lo-fi websites that like point you in directions you know and i was like living in la at the time like staying up like watching these testimonial videos right and it's like okay yeah i think you can get on hormones you know like okay there's doctors that can do surgeries like i don't fucking know where to turn to so you know like but you were you were like you were sort of like i you gotta start this yeah i mean what'd your wife say um i you know she said okay like that's okay you know like i like i just came out to her and said like i'm I'm a transsexual. I want to transition. And I don't, she didn't know what that meant.

But had you been a practicing transsexual? What does that mean? Practicing? I'm practicing my transsexualism nightly. Well, I mean, did you, like, I guess I mean, like, did you dress, you know, did you find comfort? A dress and femme? Sure. Yeah.

And totally. And, like, that would, but, like, I have a lifestyle that, like, i spend a lot of time alone and sometimes i'm like really by myself like when i'm working with a band producing a record and i'm living in a hotel room or i'm sure i'm on tour i have a really separate life from that so it was like i was living two lives yeah i was fucking living half a life in a hotel room and when i was in a hotel room i was you know expressing the way i felt i was her or whatever you're putting on makeup and like dressing and like wearing the clothes yeah dressing wearing the clothes yeah wearing women's clothes mark yeah but it was it's not shy no but it's a terrible experience like that because you

know you're you're in this like stupid fucking high stress situation where you're like okay you know i gotta go into some shitty department store to buy clothes that i don't even want to wear really because it's not my style but this is the only way i can fucking like relax and and really express this this this fucking like way i feel to calm this like tension that i feel inside of me because otherwise i'm gonna fucking like snap on someone and just lose it you know that's that's profound so and then i guess what you're saying is that because you were living these separate this separate life and it was like really limited to these hotel rooms when you were working that it's hard not to associate that with the idea of shame well yeah i mean you feel like

you're almost having an affair and you are hiding something you know and it's like why can't i just fucking be who i am whenever i want to be who i am so you're in this hotel right so you're in this hotel room losing your mind and you're like i just need to like what pieces of clothing would be most comforting what pieces of clothing you go to a department store and what do you buy a dress do you buy a robe do you buy some panties what do you do panties is a gross word i don't know underwear gross word um you just like whatever fucking even like a fucking woman's cut shirt a woman's cut tent top like anything to express femininity yeah and then you'd feel better like you'd be like yeah i, okay, I'm like expressing the way I feel, even though it's like a weird, fucked up version of it.

Right. It's not like it's, that was even more dysphoric than just being as I am now. But. You know, that changes the experience, being out with it. Now it's a totally different thing. It's not like I get off by going to a fucking department store now and buying panties and soap things. Going to a hotel room.

And then fucking going to a hotel and rubbing them or something. Right. No, no. And I didn't think that to begin with, but it was really the idea of, because I think everyone or most people deal with a discomfort that seems like it can't be resolved. Right. Mm-hmm. And that you were able to address it so specifically

and and and have to reckon with that and not feel ashamed of it or or feel like a freak for it other than the you know the idea that you were hiding something you know it's a it's a big it's a big step right obviously and to realize you had to take it and then to take it is you know it's it's big because i think that you know a lot of people that have the same feelings just die with them. Mm-hmm. Right? That's the case. I mean, well, if you look at suicide statistics among the transgender community, you know, it's like something like 50% at least attempt, you know?

It's horrible. Mm-hmm. You didn't. No, but I've been slowly trying to kill myself for the past 34 years with alcohol and drugs as a result of that. You know, I mean, I feel like that that was the unhealthy side of it. So you don't do any drugs or alcohol anymore? I do. But I mean, that's like.

Now it's just fun now? No, no, seriously. It is. Now it's just recreational and not fucking dysphoria and like related, you know? Yeah, I guess. Okay. If you say so. I guess, you know, you'll deal with that other shit later let's do a part two to this podcast yeah yeah i've talked to you

in a few years see how you're you're you're you're happy-go-lucky drug use but like but i'm just talking about smoking a little weed oh that's not wrong yeah but like that like the lyrics in this fucking record deals with all that. You deal with the suicidal, you know, with the suicide of people that can't live with it or whatever. Right. And you deal with your own sort of wrestling with it. You deal with the, and I always assume that people write these from first person. Mm-hmm.

But like, you know, the idea of being totally closeted and being a bully is in here is in this record and then the um like the the discomfort this the first song like is is really the the the transgender the the title song dysphoria blues is like that to me it was it's a powerful fucking song man well that's what talking about like that experience you know going into those department stores or going into like you know whatever store when you're perceived as male and you're buying something and the red cash register is looking at you like you're disgusting you know like they don't even want to take the money out of your hand but what about when you even but what about now that like i thought like some of that song had to do i mean

that's not it's not like that's gone right like the idea that you have to you know you have to honor yourself and you have to honor your feelings and be who you need to be but you cannot escape the judgment of of being physically who you are of other people right but by owning it like i've been able to like feel a lot more comfortable and confident in a in a fuck you way in the in a punk rock way of like, okay, when you're hiding it, you feel shameful and that in turn makes you feel defensive and closed off as opposed to being open about it and just being out there and being like, look, I am who I am.

You may not fully understand that and I don't really care, but I am who I am and I have a right to be here. I have a right to shop in the store. I have a right to do this, do that, do whatever I want to do and I don't have to explain it to you or justify it to you. I'm just going to do it. And if you have a problem. Yeah this do that do whatever whatever i want to do and i don't have to explain it to you or justify it to you right i'm just gonna do it right and if you have a problem yeah i get it fuck you yeah it's your problem i hope you can deal with that problem yeah you know whereas before you felt scared and i didn't want to feel scared you know

well yeah it's it's it's easy to feel scared if you you know you're going like you want to be understood on your own terms and not misunderstood because you're caught doing something. Right. Do you know what I mean? Because then all of a sudden you're in that weird explaining yourself position. Right. And that was something I thought about too,

having a kid where I was like, what, am I going to be like 50, 60 years old and I'm going to get caught and be in that? I don't want that situation you know how old's the kid uh my daughter is now five and how how is that all with the x and stuff um we're not in a good spot not really you know but what did did but did the the separation have to do with you actually you actually engaging in the transition process? I mean, was it something she couldn't handle?

No. I mean, I think it's all on me. I had a suicidal nervous breakdown about a year after coming out, and I just dissolved as a person. I would really... But you didn't attempt suicide? I did, yeah. How? How? Yeah., yeah. Wow. How?

Yeah. Pills and alcohol. Yeah, classic. Well, you know, go with the classics. But this is a year in, a year after you came out. And what broke apart inside you? It was a combination of things. What broke apart inside you?

It was a combination of things. You know, there was the mental side where, like, I legitimately lost the foundation of why I was transitioning. Because I saw that my marriage had, like, gotten so far away from me. Because I had been, like, I was scared, you know, I was working on a record, transitioning publicly. I had a studio, so I was just, like, locking myself in my studio 10 hours a day working on a record doing transitioning publicly i had a studio so i was just like locking myself in my studio 10 hours a day working on a record which i legitimately needed to do was it this record yeah but also i was hiding you know like yeah and then and then realizing like my marriage had fallen apart and just like that crushed me but then at the same time too i started having like this weird reaction to the hormone replacement therapy i was on and so i it turned out once I moved to Chicago and I got medical help that I had been living

with a parasitic infection in my intestines. And so at the time I had been on estrogen, progesterone and spironolactone. And so apparently the progesterone had been converting into pregnazone, which was causing these like crazy hot flashes. And I was like waking up in the middle of the night and like my arms would be clenched to my chest and I couldn't take them down and I would be like burning with sweat take a shower come out and be like it'd be like 60 degrees in the hotel room and I was just messed up and living in Florida going through transition you know like it's just totally different than other places where there was like one doctor I could see one therapist I could see dealing with gender and so I called the endocrinologist

I was dealing with this was in June at the time yeah and they're like the soonest you can be seen as August so it was just like terrible health care I was in a bad situation and had to and was really messed up you know and it all kind of like was a perfect storm like a tree fell through the roof of my studio too and destroyed it my bass player quit quit. My drummer had already quit. Like I was just- Why'd they quit? Various reasons. Yeah.

I mean like really the drummer and the bass player are totally separate things. The drummer is just kind of a jerk. And the bass player was a dear friend. Time for him to move on. Unrelated to that, you know, like that's the tough thing going through a lot of this stuff, even in relation to my ex of That's obviously what it seems like then is you defer to the fact of, oh, you're transitioning. Is it related to that, why certain things fell apart?

Sometimes I wonder about that, but at the same time, it did set off a chain of, a bunch of changes are now going to take place within your life. And a lot of that is just the way it is in life. It's a reasonable question. Yeah, it is. And I don't mind accepting all the blame for anything i just would hate to ever put blame or put any kind of guilt on someone else oh if you didn't know that yeah

sure you know like they were reacting to exactly like i can't say that about anyone and i and and if they do feel that way then that's fine and fair and that's totally cool. But I would hate for them to ever feel guilt for feeling anything like that. Right, right, right. So you're empathetic to the struggle that they may have within themselves. Totally. Everyone processes the news of someone coming out in that way in a different way, I think. Well, I think that it's like coming out in this way you know is a is a is a relatively newish thing you know because i like you said i mean i i don't know that you know everywhere you can just make this decision and

enact it and enact it i mean coming out as a as a as a gay person i mean that's sort of been around a while right but you know something sort of like all right because there's more to understand i would think for some people i'm like wait so you're how far is this going to go when you know what what is how are you oriented like there's other questions if someone says i'm gay they're like oh okay so that's what you are then but this is you know a little more complicated in a way i think in a way though that also those questions which are really heavily placed on you when you first come out yeah can often like create this pressure on a trans person person that's unrealistic because you're asking someone who's trans to explain something they don't understand totally

they're just taking a step and they're saying i identify in a way that's different than you probably identify we're going to call that trans okay now i'm taking the step to figuring out what that means and figuring out what i want to do. Maybe that means hormone replacement therapy. Maybe that means eventual surgeries. Yeah. But it doesn't always have to. Right. You know?

Sure. So, placing this pressure to like, you have to give an answer now. You're going to get surgery? You're going on hormones? What are you going to do? You know? Yeah, yeah. It creates this like mindfuck of a pressure like cooker where you're just like, I don't know.

I don't know. And especially when you do it publicly and you're like doing interviews and people want to you have to have like this so that set of answers so that happens that was pressure yeah yeah and that contributed to the breakdown i think so like you like should i know the answer to these questions do i do i need to do it to appease them yeah it gets in your head where you're like what i don't go full boat all the way i don't what am i doing as that's reactionary or what am I doing because I need to fit into someone else's understanding of an interpretation of gender? Or what am I doing because it actually makes me feel more right in my body? That's hard to do in the public eye.

That's hard to do out of the public eye. That's hard to do in general. Sure. It's interesting to me because I have i you know i i have my own um like i i don't know how to talk about it i'd imagine that most people don't want to talk about it so i mean this is the best way to talk about it well i think you know no absolutely but like i'd imagine the the the reactionary kind of like sensationalizing thing in in a conversation publicly about this in a press situation they may not try to be trying to be sensationalistic they're just sort of like

what what what's happening you know what are you going to do now do you do you have a vagina when does that happen is that what year does it is in progress i mean like i think there's a there's a fascination that may or may not come from the right place, but it's still there. Right. And I never really, I guess, the empathy necessary for the culture to sort of understand that you don't have those answers is a new thing. Totally. And it's interesting. This is new shit. It's a brave new world.

It is. Uh-huh. new shit it's a brave new world it is uh-huh like because i go up like i've i've made bad jokes before in my life but sometimes i think that in order for a culture to transition with you uh-huh you know you a lot of times people are just laughing because they're uncomfortable sure that's a legitimate like response that happens you know and it's a much better one than violence right or fuck you or immediate boxing of the person i mean it is a sign of internalized transphobia that you've been ingrained with by growing up in a society that is transphobic you know that's taught to you that's taught to me that's what like instilled that's

how i knew without it wasn't like my parents sat me down one day and they were like don't be transsexual all right yeah that wasn't even on the menu. Right, right. So, you learn about it because you see like, oh, sensationalized like headlines

in like supermarket stands. Oh, silence of the lambs. Oh, like Ace Ventura. Oh, like, you know,

all these things are thrown at you where it's usually the butt of the joke. It's a scary thing. It's obviously an unacceptable thing. It's a laughable thing

most of the time. So, that's just instilled in you too. but also the thing that cuts through all that. I mean, time but it's just instilled in you too yeah but but also the thing that cuts through all that i mean you know i think more than you know whatever value someone might have or whatever ideas or expectations they might have it's it confronts their sexuality i i but that's that's like part of it why you know it's a conversation i've had with a friend of mine specifically in regards to transgender women,

you know, and the levels of violence that, you know, like they're subject to often. And like, why is it a violent reaction? And it has to do with, you know, whether or not it challenges your sexuality of like, so you look at a woman, right? And you check her out and then you realize maybe, oh shit, that woman has a dick, right? And that challenges your sexuality. Why? Right? you check her out and then you realize maybe oh shit that woman has a dick right and that challenges your sexuality why right but also like you're looking at the woman because it's a sexist patriarchal society right and that's most men's immediate thing they do when they look at a woman

but i'm not like checking her out and then they realize like oh this this person doesn't fit what i thought they fit and now this somehow is an affront to my sexuality. But it does sort of provoke something where it's sort of like it's initially confusing. And if feelings happen within somebody, you know how they're going to interpret them like there is it's a it's a new experience that is sexual. Sure. Yeah. I mean, in that context, it's a sexual experience. Yeah. But I'm saying that the root of that has to do with more of like that. It's a sexist society sure and that that's the way it works um but i also say to back that

to back up for a second or on a related note or whatever too if you look at the number of people looking at transsexual porn on the internet it's cis men you know like those are the people who are looking at transsexual course are are straight. Sure. You know, like, so what does that say then too? Yeah. It's okay to do it in the closet, but if you're caught doing it in real life, then you like, it's. I don't know if I'd assume that they're all closeted because they're watching that porn. There might not be.

No, I'm just saying they don't know how to interpret what they're feeling. You know, they don't realize that they're attracted to that person because they're a woman, despite the fact that their genitals might be a little different than another woman's. But in my experience with all the women that I've slept with, they all have pretty different pussies or fucking whatever. Sure, they do, yeah.

Same with cocks. There you go, you know? What was the point of getting into that? I don't remember. We were just riffing, I thought. But, so where are you at with the whole thing with the whole thing i don't know i'm not saying right no i don't know i'm just living you know i feel in a good place but in the treatments and they're like how does it you know where'd you

level off i mean you went through you had the the nervous breakdown you're on medicine and and hormones and estrogen that were not balanced properly is that something you know as you transition that you you wean yourself off of do you hit a level with it no well continue taking these pills i mean it's it depends on who you go to but like so there was the level i was getting of health care in florida when i moved to chicago chicago's informed consent where you can go into a doctor say this is what i'm doing and you get access to hormones got much better health care in chicago and then i've been on injectables since i've lived in chicago and that's something you have to just keep doing yeah once a week you give yourself a

shot and and and you're you're you're leveled off with uh with the process now i don't know i don't know you're good i mean i again i'm i feel way more comfortable about myself i'm happy i'm doing what i'm doing it's really hard to transition when you tour like uh traveling like it's hard for me to get refills of prescription you know like it's hard for me to make appointments to go through things like electrolysis you know i don't know like all this stuff is stuff i think about constantly it's not like all of a sudden i was like and on you know like no but like i'm just doing me but do you feel like you do you feel like now that you're into it, like what has it been, two years? 2012 is when I came out. So three years?

I don't even remember. But since you've actively been doing the therapies to transition, it's been like three years? Yeah. Now are you feeling, like I guess my question is around what you were freaking out about before in terms of the questions.

Like now that you've sort of started this thing, are you like, no, okay. Or are you looking to do more? I feel like that I have a much better understanding of what I need and what makes me feel right than I did three years ago. Certainly more than I did 10 years ago, 20 years ago. But I feel like that in another three years, another four years, another five years, I will even have an even better understanding of who i am and what i need uh-huh i don't think

that that's something that you can ever fully feel uh like complete with or anything really or at least for me huh okay i i guess so i mean but that's sort of like to me like it's a it's it's sort of like like with drugs or something like that or that feeling of not being complete in other ways. You know, like that. Is there something are you doing anything else around the psychology of of dysphoria that isn't, you know, transition related? Did you ever address other issues to your discomfort mentally or i'm trying to you know like i i am an existentialist you know and i like i oftentimes feel locked in thinking about things and thinking about the bigger picture of things and what certain things mean and you know i don't

know how to reconcile with my life beyond where my tour dates end yeah and and that that's like i live a really weird life. I know, but like, what if you were to quiet it down? I mean, what do you, like,

see, like, I'm a guy, I'm a recovery guy, so I haven't done shit in like 15, 16 years. You know,

that was my problem. Right. But do I feel whole and complete all the time? No, I feel better about myself. I feel comfortable in my skin,

but there's still something like, you know, what does it all mean? What's the fucking point? Yeah. So, you know, that hasn't gone away. No, but there's still something like, you know, what does it all mean? What's the fucking point? Yeah. So, you know, that hasn't gone away. No, I very much still have that.

Yeah. That's there. I don't want that to go away in a way, you know? I know. I think that's healthy. Sure it is. Yeah. But you should have some peace of mind.

Yeah. I mean, it's a trip, you know, like. And like, I can't imagine. I didn't mean to cut you off, but I can't imagine that. Like, it took me like, you know years like I don't think I arrived in my body Until maybe five or six years ago Just you know when I started to get successful and feel like that I'd worked very hard of all my life to do something I did it was a self-esteem problem sure, you know, and it just it sort of happened organically, but I felt it happen

So I imagine on some level that you taking this, making this transition has given you some of that. I mean, your self-esteem must be better and your comfort level. A hundred percent. My problems now, I guess, are more just like normal problems of like, oh, I'm going through another divorce, you know? And like, oh, I got to deal with the fact that like I work and I travel and I have a kid and how do I balance like traveling life with having a kid and being able to be a part of my kid's life when I'm not necessarily getting along with the mother, you know, like those are just like the realities of life that everyone has.

Those are minimal problems to what other people's problems are. You know, I have it really good in that I enjoy what I do. I really love playing music. I really love traveling. How's the community responded to all this? You mean the community as in like music community? The punks.

The punks have been really supportive and really cool. Yeah? Mm-hmm. A hundred percent. No dicks? There's been some dicks,

but I mean, there's always a couple dicks and then- But like people- Don't read the comments, but you know- No, no, but I mean bigger dicks.

I mean like, are there any, have you had any experience with people that you respected or other musicians that have reacted poorly? No. That's good. No, uh-uh. Isn't that something? Yeah, it's been really surprising, you know? Yeah.

In a great way. And the bandmates? Bandmates, totally cool, yeah. Yeah? It's really not that big of a deal i think is what most people like get after a second they're just like oh okay you just like would prefer me to use feminine pronouns with you and then we're gonna practice at the same time and we're gonna go on tour and we'll hang out and have a fun fun time and you still

have the same sense of humor i like the same things. And you just look a little more ladylike. Yeah. Cool. That's what we're doing. You know, like, great. Easy. Do you get attention from men? What do you mean? I mean, sexual attention since you've like transitioned this much. I guess. I don't know.

Come on. You want to look sexy, don't you? Sometimes you want to look pretty, don't you? Sure. Yeah. I mean, like, I liked, you know, I'm the singer in a band. you want to look sexy don't you sometimes you want to look pretty don't you sure yeah i mean like i liked you know i'm the singer in a band i'm a little bit like arrogant in vain too where i think like everyone maybe has a thing for me to a certain extent so i guess that's the way i carry myself

through the world right you know well that's good that's i think that's a good rock and roll position to have right all right so this the new record's done you're touring on this record and you're big like i i didn't like you know i feel bad because i'm so out of the new record's done. You're touring on this record. And you're big. Like, I didn't, like, you know, I feel bad because I'm so out of the loop. But, I mean, you have a big following. You're a popular band. We have a modest following that I'm very happy with. And I really like our fans. Believe me, I understand.

I have a modest following as well. Wasn't that modest of me? It was pretty good. But how is your ego? Do you want more? Do you always want more? Do you want to be big? Do you want what how how's your ego do you want more do you always want more do you want to be big you want a stadium rock i mean everyone does and especially like you i don't it makes me paralyzed with fear to really to try to well i'm a stand-up though and it's very personal in a way that you know that's just me up there so the idea of me

performing for 10 000 people uh it's sort of like, what could they want from me? Honestly, like, I'm happy that anyone wants to see me. I mean that, like, genuinely. Of course, like, you want to feel like you're progressing and doing new things. And I don't want to feel like I'm just playing the same club over and over and over again, you know, and that it's never changing. So you do want to feel like growth. That's, like, natural, I feel like, and a healthy thing. Sure.

And ambition is a good thing sure um and wanting to feel like you're reaching more people especially it's so hard in the music industry these days where things are so skewed where it's like you know like each record we've sold or each record we put out last three records has charted higher yeah but like ultimately sold less you know what i mean like it's sold less for sure but the chart position is higher so like you you know you you want some sign that you're still relevant in the music industry i don't know well i mean sometimes it's just about the people who come you know sales are tricky you know i've only really talked to uh i've talked some you know big old dudes you know musician wise and a few young dudes but the only other real like

honest punk that i talked to was you know patrick stickles from titus andronicus oh okay yeah yeah he's he's a piece of work but like you know it seems like you guys i mean in a good way he's he's he's yeah he's something but like it seems like you know when you're at the level you're at it's just about touring constantly yeah totally yeah and but that's what we've always been you know we we've always been a band that was about and you've got original guys with you still um my best friend james who i met on the first day of high school is my guitar player still to this day so yeah that's sweet and you get along and fat mike plays on your records he played a couple on a couple songs on that record on transgender dysphoria blues yeah it's's sweet. And you get along. And Fat Mike plays on your records? He played on a couple songs on that record, on Transgender Dysphoria Blues, yeah.

Good record. Thank you. And what about, like, how's your mom handling all this? My mom's great. She's been really supportive. From the get-go? Yeah. Did she experience concern initially?

Yeah, for sure. You know, I mean, like, she's a mom. She worries. She's a parent, you know? Like, I think was just wants me to be happy ultimately yeah that is what they want you think i think so i think yeah i would hope that and your brother my brother's totally cool yeah just the dad he's he's not he might not come around i i hope maybe i don't know you know i don't know how to do that. That was complicated regardless of gender dysphoria.

Well, do you visualize anything? I mean, do you see, do you want something? What do you want? I feel like that even though I'm 34 years old, that I'm still allowed to be the kid. And that if they're the parent that, you know, you come to me. Okay. Be my parent. You're going to hold out.

I am. All right. Well, we'll see what happens. I guess. You can check back in. Yeah. Nice talking to you. You too.

That's it. That's the show. I loved it. I love her, and I liked her music. I hope you enjoyed that conversation. The talk. Hope you dug the talk. Go to WTFpod.com for all your WTF pod needs. Check the calendar. Boulder dates are coming up fast

and Denver dates are coming up fast. That's Boulder, July 24th at the Boulder Theater in Boulder, Colorado and Denver, July 25th at the Paramount Theater in Denver, Colorado. Portland this weekend is sold out. Thank you. On Thursday, I'll be talking to Ed Asner. And also

we'll have a little shorty with Adam Goldberg, which was fun. So look forward to that.... Thank you. Boomer lives! I'm Brian Riley, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it

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