WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 618 - Ed Asner / Adam Goldberg

Episode Date: July 8, 2015

Ed Asner has enough acting credits to cover several lifetimes and he's not even close to finished. Ed talks with Marc about his legendary career, from The Mary Tyler Moore Show to the time he almost played Marc's dad. Plus, Adam Goldberg stops by to enjoy his burgeoning friendship with Marc and to talk about his new movie, No Way Jose. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

lock the gate all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fucking ears this is mark maron this is wtf this is my podcast ed asner ed asner lou grant the amazing the cantankerous the brilliant the, the fucking awesome Ed Asner. I will be talking to him shortly. Adam Goldberg, who you know from being Adam Goldberg, my friend, my new friend, Adam Goldberg, who I've spent time away from the mics with and his family, will be on the show talking about his exciting new film that he wrote and directed.

It's called No Way Jose. It's going to be available today on demand. Dig that shit. Okay? He directed it. He co-wrote it. He stars in it. That's the kind of guy Adam Goldberg is.

He's awake doing things. What else? Oh, Boulder Theater, Boulder, Colorado, July 24th. Come, Boulder and surrounding areas. July 25th at the Paramount Theater, Denver, Colorado. Come. Be nice. Be nice to see you.

Be nice to have you there in my audience. Okay? For those of you who didn't make my shows on this tour, most of them anyways, the gig posters. I have some posters. There's a variety of posters. There's cheaper posters, just regular gig posters. I have some posters. There's a variety of posters. There's cheaper posters, just regular gig posters, and there's some art prints. They're all going to be signed by me, and they're all now available at WTFpod.com slash merch. All the artwork for the Marination Tour where there was artwork, except where we sold out, the art is available for you.

And I'll sign it, And I'll touch it. That matters. Also, what did Smart Mark do when they heard that they were going to pulp the hardcover covers of his book, Attempting Normal? The hardback covers. Well, they were going to get rid of them.

They send you a little notice, and they say like, hey, you know, your book didn't sell as well as we expected, so we got a lot of leftovers that we're going to turn into garbage i will sell them to you for a nice discount if you want them yeah i'll take them i'll take a thousand of those i'll take a thousand hardcover books that i wrote because i don't know what i'm going to do with them but i know now it's time to undercut let's do it let's get rid of some of these books i'll sign them 10 bucks for a brand

new hardback copy of attempting normal signed i believe i'm selling them for 10 bucks go to wtfpod.com slash merch i'll do it i'll send them out to you all right it's nice they're hardback it's cheap it's good it's good book i wrote it it's a good book so oh here's the other thing look i don't know much about um about uh bird behavior you know i don't study birds so i got my hummingbird feeder which i've discussed at length in different uh in a variety of mediums i fill it up with sugar water and uh i let the hummingbirds enjoy i get them all jacked up on the shit they like sugar i make it easy for them i create little little hummingbird speed freaks with the hummingbird feeder cut you know cuts out the uh the aggravation of having to extract whatever amount of sugar they may get from regular flowers and you just put the the real shit right in the hummingbird feeder and this

hummingbird thing i've never never seen another bird fuck with my hummingbird feeder. And this is a hummingbird thing. I've never, never seen another bird fuck with my hummingbird feeder. But there's something's going on, man. There's these two birds. They got yellow breasts. They're large birds. And they just, they just, they fly and they grab onto the hummingbird feeder. And it's rocking because they're regular sized birds. Hummingbirds are very intense.

They're very focused. They're very skillful. They move like no other bird. They're probably enviable in the bird world because of their skill set and their amazing stealth. So my thing now is that I don't know what these yellow-breasted birds are that just rock the feeder. They just clamp onto it with their fucking talons. Is that what they are? Their claws.

And they just stick their big, dumb noses into it and just drink up all the fucking sugar water. There's two of these fuckers. And they're just drinking it. Now, being a student of human behavior i know what that is that's the uh that's the bird like here i'll give you a good example let's say you don't do drugs but you live on a drug block and you see these guys and ladies and and you know boys and girls going to score their drugs and you're like that's horrible that looks like a hard life that looks exhausting then one their drugs. And you're like, that's horrible. That looks like a hard life. That looks exhausting.

Then one day shit changes. And you're like, maybe they're onto something. Maybe I can get a whole new point of view on the world if I just go where they're going and get some of that shit. So the way I'm figuring it is that these two birds, these yellow-breasted birds, I don't know what they are. Never seen it happen before. I've been here 10 years with that fucking feeder. And they're just grabbing those plastic flowers with their talons and sticking their dumb faces into the bird, the hummingbird sweet stuff. So I think they're like, you know, life isn't great being a yellow-breasted larger bird.

And they were just in the tree one day and they're watching these hummingbirds just dip their nice little long beaks into the sweet sugar water and then just zipping off and flying around like crazy little skillful things that they are. And they look like they've got it all figured out, hummingbirds. They can maneuver, and they go fast. But that's appealing. Like, maybe these yellowbirds are like, maybe we got to evolve. Maybe it's time to step it up a notch i want what the hummingbird has i want to get that jacked i want my wings to go that fast

so i think that these two yellow-breasted junkie birds are trying to you know they're living a dream they're self-medicating they're getting all fucked up on sugar thinking they can be hummingbirds and they can't that doesn't end well for those birds their little their little yellow breasted hearts are going to explode in midair because i see them out there they get jacked up on the sugar water and then they just fly around each other trying to fuck each other i think they're like they're on some sort of wild like junky uh vacation they're just they're just doing sugar and fucking in my tree.

And I don't think it ends well. They're going to hit the wall, or at the very least hit my window in a sugar-related frenzy out of control hitting bottom. That's what's going to happen. That's what I see for those birds. They need help.

They need fucking help. Adam Goldberg came by the other day and we talked for a long time and then we trimmed it down a little no i did we he come over because he's got this movie out and him and i are we we enjoy talking to each other and i think that we i think we should start seeing it as a comedy team. So now I bring you, ladies and gentlemen, to the garage. From the garage. At the Cat Ranch. In the hills of Highland Park, California. The comedy team of Marin and Goldberg.

What? What did you just take? What is that? A Polaroid? Yeah. I'm trying to get the fucking president cup in focus, and I got like... How much is that? How much did you just burn on that one picture? Probably about $10.

Where did you even get that film, dude? On eBay, on eBay, on eBay. Did people freeze it? You're supposed to keep it refrigerated, but I just moved all this shit cross-country and back, and some of it isn't holding up so well. This happens to be extremely expired. No one makes it anymore? Not this 4x5 Polaroid stuff

I'm using. Fuji makes a 4x5 instant film in a pack. These are single sheets that Polaroid used to make, and the 4x5 stuff in a pack looks much more like normal film. It doesn't have this Polaroid quality. So this movie looks

very entertaining but i'm entertained by you i don't know how other people yeah exactly i i have the same the same sensation about it um no way jose yeah so what when does it open now it comes out digitally not by default but actually by design do you say that in the press in general are you going to be saying that in all your press it comes out digitally not by default i just i just can't i just came up with that i you should write it down i don't think so i don't think i need to no you should say that like i just want people to know that i'm choosing to release this digitally well no because i know theaters are fighting for it let me let me just explain something to you. I was, I fought very, very, very, very, very hard 10 years ago when I released my last film, I Love Your Work, with which you're extremely familiar. You can.

I enjoyed it. That was the one with, you had a beard in it? No, I'm not actually in that movie, but close. Giovanni Ribisi, who you had on, stars in it. Anyway, the point is, and for what ultimately did I fight for that? For fewer people to in it anyway the point is and for what ultimately did I fight for that for fewer people to see it

what did you fight for digital release no I fought for theatrical release when all hell broke loose after the film was went to Toronto

and my producer at the time I have I'm sort of known for having quite a lot of post production and producer woes really you're known in the film industry I'm known in my for having quite a lot of post-production and producer woes.

Really? You're known in the film industry? I'm known in my living room where people know me. Yeah. Your wife and your infant child. Yeah, exactly. Know that you're difficult in post-production. No, no, no.

Let's be clear about this. Know that maybe I make slightly Faustian deals in order to get my films made and then end up paying a price on the M. Okay. In this case, people love the Spartan Apple sounds, don't they? No, they love people eating them. Oh, they love the sound of that. They love it. People are going to be emailing me, more price on the M. Okay. In this case, people love the Spartan Apple sounds, don't they? No, they love people eating them. Oh, they love the sound of that. They love it.

People are going to be emailing me, more eating on the mic, please. So, anyway, what's the point of that? The point is I fought very hard from a huge gigantic media conglomerate up in Canada who was trying to wrestle the film away from me, but really to whom my fucking producer at the time had sort of, without my knowledge,

sort of signed all the rights away to, and they were just going to dump it to DVD. And I spent a year and a half fighting to wrestle it back and have it distributed. In court? No, just with kind of representation. Some representation and a threat. At the time, I was involved with a young actress

named Christina Ricci who was in the film. She also had a clause in her contract which stated that she could take her name off the film if she didn't approve of the distribution agreement.

who's your daddy? Well, I basically said to this guy who hung up the phone on me, if you dump it to DVD and don't honor this theatrical distribution

negotiation that we were in the throes of for quite a while when they woke up and realized that basically this fucking newspaper company owned the movie, then she's going to take her name off of them. Not that there weren't other names. Did you discuss this with her? Oh, yes, of course I discussed it.

Oh, you didn't just say that? No, yeah. You were like, look, I got this. No, no, no. She was fine. That's when she still liked me. No more? didn't just say that no yeah like look i i got it no no no she was no she was extract you from the she was cool you know she was she was fine that's when she still liked me um no more uh not even socially not in like oh no we haven't seen each other since the day we broke up oh i feel like you had that i don't know with one of my my ex-second wife you've never right no i

haven't seen her yeah me too and what's crazy is i lived around the corner from christina for took effort for years yeah i mean you would, it's hard not to run into people. But maybe if you believe in something greater than ourselves, perhaps something was protecting you from God knows what the fuck would happen. Right. Who believes in something greater than ourselves? I'm just saying in general speaking, if you were to believe in something that transcends mere coincidence,

perhaps you were not meant to run into her because it would have been a bad situation. Right. Do you ever believe in that shit? You do a little. I know, I know. Too neurotic not to occasionally. Of course, are you kidding?

I mean, when I'm in trouble, I pray like a fucking motherfucker. I'm not Bill Maher. Yeah. I don't know. I think Bill Maher did say at some point, if the plane's going, or somebody said,

really, Bill, if the plane's going down, you're not going to pray to God? And he's like, no. Let me tell you something. If there's, well, we've discussed this. We don't need to retread. No. There's the slightest bit of deterrent.

My drink spills when I'm praying to God. Yeah, sure, sure. So wait, now, No Way Jose, how old is that movie? Well, how old is it in what regard? So when we had our interview, I mean, I don't know what you're asking. It's brand new. It's a new movie. I get kicked to the curb.

I'm a guy, I'm about to turn 40. I'm not breaking ground here. It's a guy who's having a midlife crisis you know he's he's with what by all appearances seems to be the perfect balance to his you know miserable neurotic woman the woman yeah played by anna o'reilly and um and i'm not gonna let you know people say oh it's not based on it's completely based on my experience and my inability to sort of commit specifically partly based on even my relationship with my now wife who wasn't even my wife

the last time I saw you. But now, but since 2013 when you made this film, you've been able to commit. I have, yeah. You're married. Yeah, I'm married.

I married her when she was eight months pregnant. I married her. Sounds like, hey, I fucking married her when she was... Eight months pregnant because you didn't want the. Sounds like, hey, I fucking married her when she was- Eight months pregnant because you didn't want the child to be born out of wedlock? We just thought it would make for a funny photograph, I guess.

Oh. It was actually for insurance reasons. Did you take it on a Polaroid? You think that's funny, like a Polaroid? You think that's hilarious, don't you? As a matter of fact, I believe we used a Leica. Okay. A Hasselblad?

We did not use a Hasselblad. So it was a kind of a hypothetical version of what would happen if like basically Roxanne had kicked me to the curb right

and what would happen in this case there's a secret I've withheld now perhaps I passively passive aggressively withheld that secret

as she later sort of indicts me for doing so in order to not so she would eventually find it out she calls it like a ripcord

I always had and so she discovers this thing which find it out she calls it like a ripcord i always had and the you know okay and so she discovers this thing which i won't reveal because it's a spoiler mark and i really want you to see the film yeah and so so that's kind of after the first act i'm sort of now sleeping on my friend's couch who's got like who's going through his own midlife crisis eric siegel and his wife anna belknap who are actually married in real life and for whom i wrote this and we shot in their house and you know, it was done in a very kind of friends and family sort of way. Some people are professional actors, some aren't.

Well, I was about to say Cassavetes, but I didn't want to get accused of being a pretentious hassle, so I went with friends and family approach. I like that. Okay. Yeah. And so the film sort of- It wouldn't be amazing, though,

if your friend was Peter Falk. Exactly. And my uncle, Ben Gazzara. So we did it in a kind of Friends of Bailey type of way. So, anywho. Oh, fuck. I'm getting that weird, awful...

Pineapple mouth? Jesus Christ. I've never eaten that much pineapple. It's good, though, right? No, no, no. I think... Like Captain Crunch mouth? I don't know that I'm not allergic to it.

Like, I don't know that... So what's going to happen now? I don't know. My tongue feels like it's swelling. I'm not kidding. Is that normal to feel like a tingling on the underside of the tongue? Sure. You're saying sure just a little longer.

Ride it out. Ride it out. Let's finish it. Are you going to be like. Oh, shit. I just drank out of the President's Cup. Oh, God damn it. Okay.

So this sounds good, that movie. Yeah, it's fine. What about our movie? Really? Yeah. On the air, huh? No, no. I mean, we should just talk about it very vaguely.

When do we start working on it? Mark, I don't know. Do you have time? I have, as soon as this month ends, I have time. The question, I want to, what I want to know is, because you're, I want to just talk. No, you are an interesting and multifaceted. I'm being nice here, but I'm sort of hemming and hawing

because either you're not going to hear it or... Hold on. Let me turn up my headphones. Okay. Go. I don't want this to be... Oh, Jesus. Really loud now.

Sorry. You have an interesting life, which I think got a little more interesting recently. Yeah, they already know about that. I knew that. My point is... Are you talking about my conversation with Ed Asner? Okay, I was...

Is that you? No, I would never have that ringtone. Yes, I know I'm stating the obvious. My point is that you have this one life as a... You know, you're someone who's acting. Yes, okay. And you're also somebody who's interviewing. Now you have a new interview show that you're going to...

We should start working on this fucking thing because I'm dead serious about it. Me too. I've been talking about it in public. Really? Not really. I mean, like, for instance, I met with my new film agent last night. Where are they at? WME.

William Morrison. I don't know what it stands for endeavor right yeah emerged so but she's young and she's into it and she was asking me those questions right yeah yeah she's asking those questions like you know where you see it going it was it was it's okay she's young and i'm over that thing the thing where youth is just beautiful and intoxicating yeah i know i'm totally over that too um and i said like you know i you know i i'm at this point where you know i don't give a fuck about a lot of things and i find freedom in that and i i'm kind of doing the work i want to do but i do i think i should be you know writing and directing and acting and and i think that me and adam goldberg had talked about something she She went, I love him. And I'm like, well, I mean, okay.

But you do. Okay. I mean, yeah, that could have gone one in two ways. Well, it could have gone one in three ways, really. Like, oh, that's one way it could have gone. Another way it could have been, you know, I love him. I think he's great. You guys are great together.

A third way, you know, it sounds like that's the way it went. Right. Third way could have been like, oh, that show, The Goldbergs is fantastic. That's great. You should, because he's hot right now. He's got a show on ABC.

Smart writer. Yeah, yeah. I mean, if you guys can do a schtick 80s thing, maybe you wear funny sweaters. No, I like the idea we're talking about.

I don't think we should talk about it. We shouldn't. We should just say. Only to ourselves. That perhaps it's rooted in some of the films that we loved. Yes. Right. Growing up.

Sure. Yeah. Sure. Yeah. And smart. A lot of room for improvisation. A lot of room for improvisation.

We're not sure who the good guy is and the bad guy is yet, but we're both bad in our own way. We're both flawed. Yeah, flawed. That's what I meant.

We're both flawed. Yeah. And that we're... We should also make clear that we're going to be playing British characters. I thought... Wait, I thought it was Cuban and British. Yeah, that's right. We can't decide who're going to be playing British characters. Wait, I thought it was Cuban and British. Yeah, that's right.

We can't decide who's going to do the Cuban. I'm not great with accents. I can kind of do this. I don't know. Is that Australian or English? I don't know what it is. I can kind of do this. Yeah.

That's like... Well, it's not right. Well, it's not right. It's not right. It's not right. How's your Cuban? Jeez, I don't know. I think I'll just do a generic

Hispanic just study it and maybe you can do the sign language too I could throw in some of that yeah um

but the fact is we have had a serious conversation about working together I think I think that people would support us in that endeavor

I actually really think they would too I don't think we should make it for tons of money or anything nor do I think people would give us tons of money how much

oh we gotta get money from people that's how it works you know no just briefly no we're not how is the baby and stuff really really good kind of like Why do I think people would give us tons of money? Oh, we got to get money from people? That's how it works. You know. No. Just briefly. No, we're not.

How is the baby and stuff? Really, really good. Kind of like, you know, a little bit magical, I guess. At the risk of getting sentimental. Yeah. No, I think that's, no, that's like one beat shy of sentimental. Magical. It's a beautiful moving experience.

It's also really difficult. He's like a big little boy, and he's very active, and he demands a lot of attention, and he doesn't speak yet, but he talks constantly. I wonder where he might have. And so it demands a lot of energy. Selflessness. A certain degree of selflessness. How's that going for you?

It's going, I would say, okay. So what do you do? You focus on the kid for his needs and as soon as the kid goes to sleep,

you turn to your wife and go, what's this in my mouth? No, no, I would say I would turn to her long before I go to sleep, before he goes to sleep. Oh, really?

Yeah, no shit. No, if it weren't for Roxanne, look, I had a moment the other day where I had, because I'm doing press for the film and also for the James Gaffigan television program sort of concurrently. And last week I had like a kind of a crazy thing.

And I had an interview. I had an interview that actually kind of meant something to me. It was like I was like kind of looking forward to it, a phoner, but like something. With who? Interview magazine, but online. Sure. And so. It meant something to you because when we were younger, that was a cool magazine.

It was a thing, and we did a photo shoot. And to be honest with you, I haven't done a fucking photo shoot in a long-ass time. You know what I mean? It's been a while since- It felt like you were back in it. I was like, hey, it's real press, man. I was like a little- Yeah, yeah.

I looked kind of good in it. Yeah, yeah. Somehow the lighting really seemed to- Which pair of Selvage jeans did you wear? I wore WH Ranch. I'm wearing them right now. They're handmade by one guy in Colorado. Yeah.

Named Ryan. Okay. So we have, we do like a part-time nanny thing. Roxanne is a graphic design firm and she sort of, you know, was the co-owner of it. And she comes home about half the day and is with the kid, which has been kind of difficult, this whole sort of nanny thing. But we got like a, you know, we're sort of on the fence about that. But there was no other way between our schedules to deal with it. But there was, but we've set aside a day where I kind of nanny and then we have the weekend.

So it's like Friday, Saturday, Sunday, whatever. But interestingly, on those Fridays thus far, since we've implemented this new plan I've been busy each time but on this one day last week I had about an hour and a half where it was just me and the kid and she had to go to work and the nanny's kid was sick and this whole thing

and it was Did she have to go watch the nanny's kid? It was she, Roxanne went to go take care of the nanny's kid it was a fucking mess and so we so I'm taking care of them and it's like it's kind of it's not you know it's not it's it's not that difficult or whatever but some for some

reason i was stressed out and everything was and i was tired and i haven't been sleeping i've been going to bed at like five in the morning lately well as opposed to 4 30 right and uh and just kind of everything it was like mr mom yeah i don't we don't need to get into it everything went wrong and and it felt like she'd been gone a fucking eternity. Yeah. And I came back and I was like on the floor. And the kid's like not in his clothes anymore, you know, because it's like he was crying too much to get him into an outfit.

You know, he's got his diaper. Yeah. Even the diaper was sort of half on and half off. I'm kind of on the floor. You know, I'm doing my best at this point. I mean, luckily you play with a kid on the floor. Yeah. So it doesn't look horrible if you're splayed out on the floor next to your kid.

You could be playing with them. Right. As opposed to crying. Yeah. Weeping. My armpit. And so she's like, you realize it was an hour and seven minutes. I'm like, really?

Okay. And so that's how it's going. But I have to tell you and blah blah blah i love this person more than i thought no you're i think you're there's a period i will tell you early on where you where i was like i don't know if i'm loving him as much as everyone says you're supposed to of course you were yeah and then i really and then you do it's like this crazy oh so it happened oh it's it's it didn't get to the point where you're like, I don't like this. I don't, honey. So here's the thing. Not only do I not love the kid.

I just don't. I'm not a fan of this particular guy. Another guy, maybe. Maybe a daughter. Yeah. But it's not happening with me. I think it'll be fine if you just sort of pick up the slack. Yeah.

I don't like that. So I'm going to just go on kind of like as usual. Anyway. No, it's beautiful. Well, well it's nice it's nice to see you it's great to see you mark that was that cuban it's great to see you mark that's close it's great to see you marco yeah that's good so in the movie i play a one-eighth mexican guy and i thought i was exaggerating because i was i always heard i was part mexican but like 172nd right i discovered I discovered recently I am, in fact, exactly one eighth. I'm not bullshitting. That is a weird bit of prescience, you might say.

Interesting. There we go. Good night. Okay. That's it. I have to go drop some knives off and pick up some boots. I got to drop some kids off at the lake, if you know what I'm talking about. Wait a minute.

Because of the pineapple. Wait, what happened? Oh, really? Already? Well, I have a very fast system. I got a fast system. Is that going to happen in my house? Probably going to happen in your house

or your driveway if I make it to the house. I'd like that. If we do the driveway, let me have the Polaroid. Wasn't that fun? Go see his movie. It's available on demand.

So see it in your house. No Way Jose. All right? So Ed Asner played my father in a pilot presentation of my IFC show, Marin, which I should take an opportunity to plug a bit. Which one is on this week? Oh, it's the one, oh, yeah, where I go to the doctor, right? Yeah, Patton Oswalt opportunity to plug a bit. Which one is on this week? Oh, it's the one, oh yeah, where I go to the doctor, right? Yeah, Patton Oswalt's on it a bit.

And yeah, okay. We all up to speed? Anyways, Ed Asner, one of the most defined, memorable characters on television, Lou Grant, several film roles, and also the Lou Grant show. on television, Lou Grant, several film roles, and also the Lou Grant show. But he is memorable in that he's fucking Ed Asner.

I mean, fucking Ed Asner. He's like, there's no other Ed Asner. He's hilarious, and you can't, I don't know, he's just one of those guys where it's very, it's a rare, beautiful thing, the funny, cranky person. That, you know, because cranky is not funny by itself, but there's a certain special cranky disposition that it's rare. And Lou Grant is one of the best characters at it. And Ed Asner as a person person also quite good at it. So let's talk now to the amazing and what else? He's the best.

He's the best Ed Asner because he's Ed Asner. Let's talk to Ed Asner. Ed Asner. Let's talk to Ed Asner. You and I did a short pilot. You played my father. Yeah. And you yelled at me in the driveway.

Yeah. And then you were unavailable to do the series. I was. Yeah. Unbelievable. You were doing theater. Yeah. You had a theater run of something it was not the fdr thing it was something grace grace in new york yes how did that go oh it

was very well except a fucking hurricane hit and then that was it no it kicked uh shit out of business for a couple of weeks but we were on a limited run anyway. Do you love doing theater more than anything else? No. It's a lot of work, isn't it? Yeah, it's a lot of work. And there are a lot of conditions that I seem to solve

filmic conditions more easily than I do theatrical problems. Well, you've been doing the FDR thing for a long time, right? Four years. Four years. I'm about to launch into a new one-man show, though, that we tried out at the Falcon Theater last Friday. Went very well. What was that one? Well, Ed Weinberger, producer, writer

of one of them, of the Mary Tyler Moore show, wrote this semi-autobiographical one-man show called A Man and His Prostate. About himself? Yeah. And it's a comedy. It's light, but it's also very instructive. About your prostate.

Mm-hmm. So we learn. Oh, yeah. Yeah. You got to get that thing checked oh yeah yeah and you you know you're gonna find out the best way to keep yourself stroked yes yeah stroked in general mm-hmm yeah I'm stoked uh-huh so when you do FDR day was, was that a personal fascination? Yeah.

Was he your guy? He was my guy. Has there been any other? I'm younger than you, so I have very little recollection. I have very vague memories of Nixon, and then I sort of remember things, and then I remember getting angry. Then that was, right? And you've been angry ever since? Sure. Yeah.

I try not to get too attached to that. I'm angry anyways. No. With or without politics. Well, I sulk. Yeah, I do a lot of sulking. Yeah? No yelling?

No. Well, who's going to listen? Did you used to yell more? No. Well, I talk loudly now. I'm naturally a little hard of hearing. Right. Last night, we were at a benefit at the Club Nokia.

Yeah. And my son and I, Matthew, he's executive, our creative director for Autism Speaks. And we were both being honored by Autism Speaks. And we were both being honored by Autism Works Now. And Temple Grandin was there. And she was the big guest.

And she was lined up with a bunch of people on the red carpet. And I decided to really play it up like a clown. I went and stood right in front of her, pressing her with my bulk. Uh-huh. And blocking her from view of anybody else. And I then spoke loudly.

And being autistic, she winced visibly in pain. And I realized what a schmuck I was for doing two things, my presence overwhelming her and my voice wincing her. And I thought, being the father of an autistic son and grandfather of an autistic grandson, I committed two of the most cardinal sins you could with an autistic person. Getting too close, overwhelming them with your bulk, and talking too loudly. See, but your first impulse was to be funny. Yeah, yeah.

And then you learned your lesson right after. Yeah, I played the schmuck last night. For some reason, I don't feel like that was the first time oh come on am i wrong i mean sometimes no when i worked with you on your pilot that's what that was there you go i got it back yeah he turned it around no but i mean as a funny person sometimes i mean sometimes you you don't realize it when you go through the first impulse yeah and then it's just sort of like oh shit but you know when you're known as a clown in certain aspects people tend to forgive you much more than if you weren't regarded as a clown right did temple grandin forgive you yes okay

after the i don't know she could be harboring the greatest resentment in the world to me weren't regarded as a clown. Right. Did Temple Grandin forgive you? Yes. Oh, good. After the winch. I don't know. She could be harboring the greatest resentment in the world to me today. After the winch, did she laugh at least? No, no. She doesn't laugh easily. Yeah, she's fairly serious, I guess. So, like, how far back do your memories go?

You remember FDR. Well, yeah, I remember. I idolized him. When you were a kid. Yeah, he died when I was a sophomore in high school. But like in your generation, my sense of it is that this guy was a guy that really wanted to help people. Yeah, I think so. And that doesn't happen.

And I think he learned along the way. I don't know that he launched into national prominence he saw the problems affecting the nation and everybody else saw the problems but uh certainly didn't think that they could employ the methods he did yeah which was socialistic yeah uh which the american people don't understand they don't even know how to spell it right well they know the word bothers them yeah reasons that are that are not clear to them they get it confused with communism yes they really do so where were you at that time did you grow up in a socialist background as a jewish guy my father was a junkman oh yeah where kansas city kansas how'd you end up in

kansas city kansas i mean i'm a jew he probably told you i'm a jew you end up in Kansas City, Kansas? I mean, I'm a Jew. Why'd you ask him? He probably told you. I'm a Jew. I grew up in New Mexico. People were like, when did that happen? How did you get there? Well, there were ancient Jews there with the conquistadores. Sure. Oh, from the Inquisition.

Yeah, the conversos. That they didn't realize they were Jewish. Yeah. It's a hell of a story. They got Morgan Davids on their tombstones. Right, right. Yeah, they light candles on Friday night. Right, but they didn't know they were Jewish.

They thought they were some weird part of the Catholic Church. Yeah, yeah. It's a beautiful story. It is. But how did you, you don't know how your dad ended up there? Was he first generation, obviously? Well, no, I think he ended up there like anybody ended up there. Yeah.

He worked a year in the sweatshops in Boston. After he immigrated? Yeah. And my mother was starting to get ripe. Uh-huh. And my dad came courting, and he wooed and won her. Yeah? Mm-hmm.

And how many kids in the family? Five. That's five of you? Mm-hmm. How many are around? I got a brother alive. Uh-huh. He's six years older.

Oh, wow. How old are you today? 85. Pretty good. Oh, yeah. Watch me leap this table. Yeah. Oh, my God, you made it. I'm sorry I broke your floor. That, yeah. Watch me leap this table. Yeah.

Oh, my God. You made it. I'm sorry. I broke your floor. That's okay. It was worth it. So when did you, how religious was the household? Very. Orthodox.

So you wore a yarmulke? I caught, no. Hell no. I call it Midwestern Orthodox. Yeah. Because my dad didn't walk to show. Right. He drove.

Right. But he didn't smoke on Shabbos and We had a kosher house you did oh, yeah, two pants two plates two sinks Mm-hmm all then not two sinks. No, no, we didn't have two sinks with separate plates Seemed like a big hassle after a certain point To keep a kosher home. Yeah, yeah. But it's, you know, how nice to have all the rigidity so that you got something to break away from.

Yeah, I guess that's one way to look at it. And what were you doing when you were a kid? Did you do jobs before you? I delivered for a, I got my Schwinn bike. Yeah. My first job was delivering for a drugstore. Yeah. That was up a long goddamn hill.

And a Schwinn was not a fleet bike. Sure. So I was given an order to deliver a whole bag full of, like a newspaper bag, of beer. This dog store sold beer. So I pedaled down the hill to this house, and they gave me a bunch of empties to bring back, which I had to pump up the hill. Not anticipating. No. And I said, I thought it's strange that there are closer drugstores.

How come you didn't deal with them? When I got back after puffing up that hill, a long hill, When I got back after puffing up that hill, a long hill, three assistant managers were waiting for me in their white coats. I said, what the hell did you say to that person? I said, I just said there are closer drugstores. Don't ever do that again. I don't know how much longer I lasted at that drugstore, but it wasn't long.

Be honest. Screwed the business up. Make me sweat my ass off going up that hill. And when did you decide to be an actor? After I tried out for and got the lead, ended up with the lead, in T.S. Eliot's Murder in a Cathedral in the summer production of the University of Chicago. So you went to the University of Chicago.

What were you studying? Revolution. You were ready to start. You were ready to lead. No, I came in there. I had a vague idea of political science. I knew they were good for political science. Archaeology, political science.

But weren't they on the, wasn't their political science department later not the good guys? They were not the good guys. Not the good guys. Who was it? George Shultz was there. Well, was, right. Who was he? Scalia came out of there, too, I think. Right. And, well, Milton Friedman, maybe? Oh, yeah, right, who was he? Scalia came out of there, too, I think.

Right, and, well, Milton Friedman, maybe? Oh, yeah, yeah. And who was the other, the architect of the badness? Strauss. Oh, yeah. I studied. Leo Strauss? Yeah, yeah.

Right. I took social science three. With him. Which was mostly economics. I didn't pay attention one goddamn him. Which was mostly economics. I didn't pay attention one goddamn day. That's probably good. Yeah. And that's when I auditioned for the play and got the lead.

So it really didn't matter to me. Uh-huh. And that was the first time you'd ever acted. Well, other than, you know, synagogue plays and little plays in school. Did you do Jewish theater? Did you do Hebrew plays? Well, other than, you know, synagogue plays and little plays in school. Did you do Jewish theater? Did you do Hebrew plays? Well, yeah. I was, you know, Haman.

I was Mordecai. I was all those. So you were always a ham. Yeah. Yeah. And this was the first big production. And you were working, what was it? I guess it wasn't the theater school, but it was the theater troupe, right?

They did, yeah. They were all extracurricular. Right, right. They didn't have a theater department. And that was what planted the seed where you were like, this is it? Well, I had done radio in high school and loved it. But guys, they thought, you know, it was Kansas City bourgeois. Yeah.

You don't make a living in radio. How do you make a living in radio? Right. Well, I'm certain the parents were probably like, what are you thinking? No, I wasn't thinking. Right. So they started a radio station at the dormitory in Chicago. Yeah.

Decided to try out for that. I talked to my effete roommate who was from Newark. Uh-huh. And I said, I did radio in high school. Should I try out for this? And he said, well, I don't know, let me hear you read. So they had given me the Song of Songs, beautiful Valenti Press of the Song of Songs,

he and my other roommate, because they considered me a jock and they thought they'd give me something contrapuntal. It's kind of almost a love poem. Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's beautiful, beautiful stuff. So he said, let me hear you read. I stood at one end of the room and I read to him.

And of course, they thought I was a jock from Kansas. So they expected to hear a cowboy read. And after I finished reading, he said, where did you learn to read like that? And I shrugged. So after that, when he came home one day and he said, they're going to do Murder in the Cathedral as a summer production. Check the book out, read it, read it.

You can do any of the roles in it. And I ended up doing Thomas. Were you a jock? I played football, you know. So you were a burly guy. You were like a... 180, I weighed 180. Yeah.

So did you finish college? No, I dropped out because I became an actor. Oh, really? That was it? How old were you? 19? 19. And where'd you go after that?

Where'd you go first? Well, my funds were withdrawn because I'd started an affair with a lady in the chorus at the same time. So between getting sex and getting beautiful acting roles, I couldn't pay attention to Leo Strauss, could I? No. And your father said, fuck this? No.

No more school. Right. So I came home and I had a couple of jobs, shitty jobs. And finally, friends were working on the assembly line at the Buick Oldsmobile Pontiac plant in Kansas City. Yeah. I got a job down there as a polisher buffer. With the machine? Yeah.

And it was an open shop plant. Uh-huh. And the conditions were brutal, especially for somebody who'd never really worked before. Had to wear a mask? No, no. I didn't wear a mask, but you're covered in schmutz. So I had a Uriah Heap foreman who liked to pick on me. Finally, he traded me off to another foreman,

and I got along all right with him. I spent six months there. And in the meantime, friends were coming from Chicago to say, go back to Chicago, and they want you to do Brutus and Julius Caesar. Really? Yeah. Someone just came to you from Chicago and said, we need you to do Brutus and Julius Caesar. Really? Yeah. Someone just came to you from Chicago and said,

we need you to be Brutus. I went back trying to give false pledges that the affair with the girl was over with. To who? My folks. What were they meant? She wasn't Jewish? What was the problem?

She wasn't Jewish, yeah. That was the problem. Yeah. Remember the old days? Kind of. Yeah. So I went back and I did Brutus and became more disenchanted with her than I thought I had been. And stayed on in Chicago and did all kinds of jobs there.

I sold over the phone. I sold shoes. But you were acting still? Whenever I could at the university. But you weren't enrolled anymore? No. You were just doing plays? Yeah, you could do that.

You could? Yeah, and my last production for the regular theater, which was Antigone. God, you were doing heavy shit. Susan Sontag was his many. Really? Yeah. She had two lines, I think. She went a different direction.

Didn't she? Yeah. I guess you could say I fucked up. How? As crayon in Antigone. And opened on a Friday night. Then we had a Saturday and a matinee and a Saturday night. So just before the matinee

on Saturday, the director of the university theater comes down into the dressing room and he says, he wanted to meet with us. And he turns to each one of them

and he says, you stunk this way, you stunk that way, you stunk this way, you stunk that way, you stunk this way, you stunk that way. And then he said, all because of him pointing at me. I evidently had shouted my way through the play. I'll admit that's possible. But that I forced everybody else to shout in turn and it would ruin the play. So I pulled myself back for the Saturday night and the Sunday performance, and I was then exiled from that particular group.

Then another rebel group was forming from exiles and those who didn't like that director. A rebel theater group. Yes. Yes. To perform in Ida Noyes Hall. And my first play was Man of Destiny, George Bernard Shaw. And they were going to do Androcles and the Lion. And Mike Nichols was going to be Caesar.

So they needed a little curtain raiser for Androcles. Yeah. So they decided to do a 15-minute playlet by William Butler Yeats called Purgatory. Yeah. And I played the old man in that, and Mike Nichols directed it. So that was his first time directing. Yeah, I think so. And you were it?

I was it. And did you guys remain friends? We were never really, we were acquaintances. He was in the Compass Players, right? Yeah, yeah. And he was there at the beginning of that. Were you there?

Of course. Was that the Renegade Theater Group that formed? Is that what became? Well, out of that, Paul Sills was a member of that Renegade Group. And while I was in France, stationed in France during the Korean War, a couple of weeks before I mustered out home, I got a letter from Paul Sills saying,

listen, we're going to start a theater here. We're going to do classics and new plays. Come join us. And my life fell into place. And what was that called? Playwrights Theater Club. In Chicago. How long were you in the service?

Two years. Did you see action? Not in France. Yeah, they didn't know that was the first. I saw a different kind of action. Did you learn how to speak French? C'est à demain. Enough.

Oh, you take me for the food? So you go back and you're in you're doing plays with these guys how how long were you there for with them two years okay so you did two years and then then what happens you're like i'm going to where well i got great reviews paul was starting compass then right with david shepherd his partner at playwrights and i i didn't feel a nice Jewish boy would be doing improv so I decided to take my great rave reviews. As an actor?

Mm-hmm. So I would say they were going for improv theater. That's what the Compass Players were. People's theater they wanted. So it wasn't comedy necessarily. Yeah, well Mike and Elaine came out of there. And Shelly Berman was there too. Shelly Berman was there, too. Shelly Berman.

Yeah. Mike and Elaine. Shelly Berman, Barbara Harris. Uh-huh. But not Ed Asner. No, no. I later, when they came to California as Second City to do their first performance in California,

because I was such an old acquaintance. I worked out with them and had a lot of fun. And then when they had their 25th anniversary, they invited me to participate. Do you like doing improv? Yeah. It's fun, right? We're doing it now, aren't we?

Yeah, I'd like to think I am. I'm on it. So where'd you go after Chicago? Well, I went to New York. I ran off to show my reviews to the producers and agents of New York. How'd that go? Not well. What?

They didn't give you a, they didn't say, well, Broadway is yours. Well, I went to see Carmen Capalbo and Stanley Chase. We had done a pirated version of Three Penny Opera. So I was supposed to understudy the police chief. Yeah. And then Leon announced that he was going to leave for a Broadway touring company. And I said, oh, shit. Right.

He said, well, we were friendly. He said, well, it's my role, because Peachum was my role. And he said, I'll give my notice a week earlier and tell them, recommend them that they try you out for Peachum. So he did that. I auditioned for it for the guys. And they brought me in as Peachum. And I did it for about two and a half years.

And where was that is it on Broadway? Theater Delice. Yeah? Yeah, the Lortel Theater. So it was that was spectacular,

right? Was I? Yeah. I think so. And it got you in? Mm-hmm. You established yourself? I was making

$65 a week that ain't nothing goddamn week yeah yeah parents feel about that they didn't they didn't make any comment they knew I was supporting myself though that's all it counted yeah and when did you when did you start doing television I was doing television you could do television if you gave them a sufficient notice so you're doing some television in new york working my way up in television live television probably well it was the sunday morning shows camera three lamp into my feet what would you do like what were the classics classics really yeah. So you were doing Shakespeare and Greeks on television? Yeah.

Live? Monday, Sunday morning. That's incredible. Oh, yeah. Does that footage exist? Well, I'll go look. All right. But when did you start to, so what were the rungs of the letter? My first camera three was a compilation of Elizabethan poetry, etc.

And Jackie Brooks and I were playing the old lovers. And a girl named Sharon Follett and George Pappard were playing the young lovers. George Pappard. Pana check. Yeah. So that was my first show on sunday morning and when did you start sort of defining yourself in roles that you felt were a little more contemporary and uh because i mean you were you know you're a monumental figure in television but like you're very specifically you.

And I have to assume that in the classics, I mean, I'm sure you're amazing at it. But at some point, you started to chisel away a little more. My first big, big opening was with Burt Leonard and Marion Doherty with Route 66. Okay. Bert Leonard and Marion Doherty with Route 66. Okay. They hired me to do a Route 66 in Grand Isle, Louisiana, where Bruce Dern and I played Israeli secret agents.

Bruce Dern? Yeah. And we were there because we had gotten word that there was a suspect Nazi working on one of the oil crews. Interesting. Yeah. Well, we came down there and we investigated and found out, and Lou Ayers was the suspected Nazi. Uh-huh.

And we investigated and found out that it wasn't him, it was somebody else in the crew. So I spent three days in Grand Isle in insufferable heat and mosquitoes. And that started me with Marion Dohertyty and burt leonard you were all just young actors at some point you know cutting your teeth was dern intense then well he was wild and crazy oh yeah oh yeah so you so you move out here when what's 1960 what what two one one and you've been here ever since? Mm-hmm. But you do a lot of television.

Well, I have, yeah. I mean, from the beginning, because most people know you from Mary Tyler Moore, but you were doing episodics. You were doing the Untouchables. Gunsmoke. Alfred Hitchcock. Alfred Hitchcock a couple times. Dr. Kildare.

Dr. Kildare. That's before I was born. Yeah. Outer Limits. Outer Limits. But you're working a lot. You'reare. Dr. Kildare. That's before I was born. Yeah. Outer Limits. Outer Limits. But you're working a lot. You're a working actor. You're in the union.

Things are going good. Mm-hmm. And at that time, did you want to break into movies? Was that the plan? Yeah. He showed me the door. Yeah. How did that work?

I mean, it took a while for you to get into movies? Well, I did an early movie, which Jeff Bridges, I think it was Jeff Bridges, was the star. Calvin Lockhart was the star. Uh-huh. That didn't go anywhere. I played a high school math teacher or something. I don't know. A high school math teacher or something.

I don't know. And then in 65, Howard Hawks hired me for Eldorado. Yeah. And I went to Tucson and had a marvelous time with taking my family there. And I discovered Tucson. I discovered John Wayne and Robert Mitchum. You guys were hanging out? No, Mitchum and I did some. Not Wayne, no.

How was Mitchum as a guy? He was a wild. Another one? Another wild man? Blackhearted. Yeah. That creature. He wanted more than anything to be a writer. Another one? Another wild man? Black hearted. Yeah. That creature. He wanted more than anything to be a writer.

Really? Yeah. And he was just stuck being a movie star. Yeah. Tough, tough break. Too bad, man. Yeah, right? But Howard Hawks, was that an amazing day to be working with that guy?

Yeah, he was lovely. Yeah. Yeah. So, all through this, but i guess what i guess what's amazing i don't think that people really realize all the time it's just that when you work as an actor when when i mean you really worked you were you were like it seems like every you must have been working every month every week well that's that's the thing at kilvay we arrived in la yeah in labor on memorial day yeah of 61 and i then proceeded to get jobs from my agent i was lucky to have yeah jack fields and in that the seven months

i made more money than i'd ever made any year in new y. Yeah. The six years I spent in New York. So I felt we were blessed. And then by 62, we moved into a house. This is with your first wife. Yeah. How many kids did you have? Three. Yeah.

And you moved into a house. And I guess you were a type. You were the Ed Asner type. People wanted you yeah i suppose so how old were you when mary tyler moore what happened uh that was uh 70 i think and how did that come about 41 well how old 41 i think so yeah and you'd already had a whole life of fucking acting already you know like i can't like it like it's all these shows that like i remember from when i was a kid you know mission

impossible ironside it's crazy man why is it the mod squad because like you know like if you were if someone was to show me a reel of your of your your small parts you know leading up to it would be fascinating to me because like a lot of times we didn't have the opportunity. I would not have had the opportunity to retroactively look at your career. Like, you know, a lot of times, you know, it's like, there he is as Mr. Grant. Yeah. Well, there's 20 years before that to look at all that work. Yeah.

Do you consider a lot of that work stuff you're proud of or are you just working? Oh, yeah. I don't like to denigrate i don't like to think in terms of take the money and run right i like to make something out of whatever i right sure uh and there were good roles in there the route 66 has always had promise yeah i had a did a dilly of a one on my way out to California, but it was a good show. And you loved doing it? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So how'd you get the Mary Tyler Moore part? How did that evolve? Well, I guess they had been doing some checking on me. The producers asked Ethel Winan, who was vice president in charge of talent, can Ed Asher do comedy? And she said, he can do anything. And she didn't know. I mean, the only thing I'd done for her was nothing.

I'd garnished. And Grant Tinker was at 20th, and he touted me, too, of the guys. I came in and I read. So you were a known guy. You were a go-to guy as an actor. Yeah, I was one of them. Yeah. And I read Lou for them.

And at the end of it, Jim Brooks said, well, that's a very intelligent reading. And as dumb as I am, I said, yeah, yeah, very intelligent, but not funny. So he said, when we have you back to read with Mary, we want you to read it, Wiggy Wild, Fall Out, you know, crazy. I didn't know what the hell he was talking about. You didn't?

No. So I said, okay, okay. I started to walk out, and I turned back to them. I said, I'm not sure what you're talking about. Why don't you let me try it that way now, and if I don't do it, don't have me back. They never heard anything like that before. Right.

And I had never said anything like that before. But they said, well, we have another appointment. I said, all right, go ahead. So I read it like a mishuganer. Yeah. And they laughed. Yeah. They laughed.

And at the end of it, they said, read it just like that with Mary. I came back a week or so later to read with Mary. And I kept saying, what did I do? What did I do? How did I do it? What did we do? I started reading, and I read it like I was sugar. And at the end, they laughed again.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I said, thank you. We'll be talking to you. And when I left the room, Mary then turned to the boys and said, are you sure? And Jim Brooks said, that's your Lou Grant. Uh-huh. Are you sure? Jim Brooks, how old was he, 12?

Probably. Probably. Yeah. And when you say Meshuggah I mean like in my recollection of that work that you did I mean he was

a big character but not crazy well you know it's that bit about you know what you got spunk

she she diddles the shit on the floor yeah yeah I hate spunk yeah right right right so that that was the wild and crazy part He diddles the shit on the floor. Yeah, yeah. I hate spunk. Yeah, right, right, right.

So that was the wild and crazy part. So funny. Yeah. Is it? Like that was a funny moment just now. Yeah. Now, did you... I like spunk, though. You do?

Yeah. Were you a spunky guy? No, I'm not. Not at all? No, I took years to build it up. Oh, really? It was a learned thing, this punk. It is.

But did you grow to love, I have to assume that that set, because it was like one of those things my mother would watch and I would sit there at the foot of the bed watching that. It was such an amazing ensemble and was so important to so many people. Did you grow to love that show? Oh, yeah. Yeah? It was the Yellow Brick Road.

Yeah. Yeah, it was lovely. And so much comedy. Yeah. Where did all that generate from? How did that, you just began to work together, like comedically, did it take a little time? Well, the two producers had great taste.

They had a good casting director. Jay Sandrich was our director primarily. And he had excellent comic knowledge. It's fascinating, though. Does it fascinate you in retrospect? Yeah, but then we went on and did an hour show of Lou Grant. And I think the cast we had there was as good, if not better. That was a great show.

Yeah. Both of them lasted a good many years. Well, 12 years total. For both of them. Mm-hmm. People loved that Lou Grant character. Mm-hmm. Do they still come up to you now?

Oh, yeah. And say, Lou Grant? He's the avuncular person that people always want. I think you're hilarious. Oh, yeah. But you know that, right? When did you think that? Immediately.

When you cast me as your father in that for blunch at the pilot. Yeah. And then when you got out of the car here in the driveway and said, oh, where the fuck am I? I think. Yeah. Well, look at the neighborhood for Christ. Where do you live?

Oh, yeah. You would really think you had died and gone to heaven. Really? Yeah. Got a beautiful place? Yeah, we rent. Oh, you do? Mm-hmm. In an apartment or a house?

No, a house, yeah. So you don't own the house anymore. Got rid of that one. Mm-hmm, a long time ago. Yeah? It's easier to rent? I let my wife have it. The first wife? Second. The first wife?

Second. The second one? Oh. And you've been married three times? No, twice. Okay. She's the one who's suing me. Yeah.

Yeah, they don't, you know, after it's done, someone's not nice usually. Yeah. No. It never ends. No. I'm sorry you're going through that. No, no, no. it's all part of the life spectrum but like let's back in the career thing after mary tyler moore again you did another you

know 40 years of work 50 years it's like you you've worked more than anyone i've ever seen oh well it's amazing. Yeah. I remember seeing you in JFK and thinking like, holy shit, Ed Asner, scary. Mm-hmm. That is a heavy fart. That is a heavy part. What did you say?

It's a heavy fart, Ed. That got you? That is a heavy fart. What a fart that was. It was a heavy fart, all right. Yeah, it was. Well, and Jack Lemmon had the scratches on his face to prove it. Oh, that's right.

Was that the first time you worked with him? No, we had worked on Broadway together. When was that? That was in 60. Really? Yeah, Face of a Hero. Albert Decker, Betsy Blair, Sandy Dennis, Russell Collins, Roy Poole. Did a lot of theater, Ed.

Ellen Holly. I did before, but yeah, before. Not since I came to Hollywood. Now, when, okay, so in 1960, you work with Jack Lemmon, then you work with him in JFK. Had you seen him since? I don't recall. Like, I always assume that people have these moments

where they're like, oh my God, how are you? That's what it is. You know, we had a great director for Face of a Hero, Sandy McKendrick. The night of the cocktail party before rehearsals began, he said, lovely reading. And he said, of course, you can't be that funny. And I said, oh, well, he's the that funny. And I said, oh, I'll use the right director. He'll take care of me. Yeah.

Well, he so militated against anything I might do that was funny, he eventually had me doing my role with my back to the audience. Why? Because he didn't want me to be funny. Why? And the character could only have been written for two reasons, to be funny and to commit perjury as part of the plot. Yeah.

So I suffered through that goddamn show. Years later, I don't know where I ran into, maybe it was with JFK. Yeah, Jack. And I made some comments complaining about McKendrick's direction. And he said, oh, no, no, no, no. I knew we were in trouble when I was on stage. And I looked over in the wings.

And there he was. And he was visualizing the camera shot he was going to shoot from the wings as director, and he was visualizing the camera. So he forgot about directing a play. So that brought Jack and me close together. Did you like working with Oliver Stone? Yeah, he was good. Oliver was funny.

Stone? Yeah. He was good. Oliver was funny. Yeah. We'd go along and I'd and we'd rehearse and I'd think about something I'd think about something, lining up a shot Yeah. And I'd say you know, what if I

changed this word or changed this line to that? And if he didn't have time to think about it, he'd say, yeah, sure, fine, go ahead. But if there was too much time before we were ready to shoot, he'd come back finally and he'd say,

no, I don't think so. Keep it the way it is. But he had to sneak it in. But if I got him without a lot of time, he'd always buy the changes. You're doing a lot of time, he'd always buy the changes. You're doing a lot of voice work now. And that was the Up movie was a big deal.

Yeah. Do you enjoy doing that? I love it. Yeah, right? It's easier. I love voice over. That has nothing to do with easy, but I feel I can do as good a job with just the voice without having to to walk right i don't have to shave that's right i just i just did a an angry raccoon today earlier today you did yeah i was a angry raccoon

where can we see this record this would be on nickelodeon this would be on the harvey beaks cartoons in the nickelodeon show i don don't know that. Yeah, no. Who knows what's going on on television anymore? Well, it's nice that you're gainfully employed. I do okay. Yeah. This thing does okay out of the garage. Yeah.

That show that you and I did, it became a show. It's a third season started. Is it? Yeah. It's going? Yeah. So who ended up being your father? Judd Hirsch.

Oh, my God. What are you? You were doing a play. I know growing. Yeah. So who ended up being your father? Judd Hirsch. Oh, my God. You were doing a play. I know. I know. Judd Hirsch is a fine actor. He is. He's good. He can be a pain in the ass, but he's doing fine.

How many episodes did you make per season? We did 10 that first season, then 13 the second season, then 13 this season. Good. It was, yeah. You know, it's an interesting time now that when you were on television in the 70s, you know, you only had three options. And now you got hundreds of options. It's interesting, the landscape.

And it's more chaotic than ever. Yeah. It's just how something- Our lives are not made better or simpler, I don't think. Absolutely not. I don't think so at all. And we just adapt to it without even thinking about it. Does it exhaust you?

Yeah. It does? I haven't figured out all the aspects of my cell phone. No, there's no figuring it all out. Oh, some people do. That's all they do because they live and sleep and die with it. Yeah, but you just learn to do the three things or four things or five things. That's right.

That's right. So now, you never stop working. Is that why I'm so rich? Yeah. You're just filthy rich. Oh, my God. How much do you need? I'm okay.

I just want you to be happy. Oh, yeah. I'll make me rich. What about when you were head of the union? How did that come about? What made you decide to do that? Well, I had campaigned vigorously for the rebels of the union. This is AFTRA, right?

No, SAG. You were the head of SAG? Yeah, because I was the head of Lou Grant, and I spoke well on the streets. They decided to run me as their candidate against Bill Schallert, who was a good president, but they wanted to do better. And I defeated him. Was that exciting? Yeah, I guess because I was going into waters I certainly

didn't have charted. Oh yeah? Well how was that experience? What were you hoping to accomplish? Learning on the job. Learning how your friends can be as punishing if not more so than your enemies.

So what was the day-to-day thing? What were you fighting for? What's the job of a union head? Well, as always, you know, you fight for minority rights, you fight for senior citizens, greater inclusion. So did you feel like you accomplished something in that position? Well, the membership certainly seemed to like me and speak favorably of my presidency. But what the union has become is DREC.

Yeah. Have they all become DREC? A lot of them? Probably. Why do you think that's happened? Because I know you're a fighter. You fight the good fight. What do you think's happening? Well, merger're a fighter. You fight the good fight. What do you think's happening?

Well, merger was a mistake. Yeah? Because they didn't... We had studied merger. After 1980, we studied merger. Uh-huh. And merger would be fine if you can achieve the merger of health and welfare. Right.

But if you can't merge those plans and, I forget what the term is, gain acceptance of, say, your work and after, and get credit for it with your SAG medical plan. If you can't do those things, you're losing out all the time. And it's the same way with pension. Why shouldn't the pensions be merged? Right. Find the way to do it.

Right. To coalesce. Right. And they didn't do it. Yeah. And what they've got now is a mishmash. Right. Yeah, you just kind of get covered in whatever you make the money

yeah yeah right yeah did you ever have any aspirations to politics people thought i did when i was uh when i got outspoken on central america uh-huh they thought i was trying to follow in reagan's footstep yeah yeah but uh no i never read it I always found that the actor who stayed the actor and spoke out probably achieved more clout than a politician and certainly

it's much more rewarding financially to leave acting and become a politician because those babies certainly receive great benefits. Yeah, they do. And security detail, depending on how high up you get. Well, they should have security details.

I'd like to knock a few of them in the head. Yeah. So in looking back on the whole uh the whole endeavor the life what uh guys i just like i i look at the resume and you work so much are there things that you look back on and think like jesus christ that was fucking amazing like do you like sit and reflect at all no you don't no i didn't think so, right? I'm waiting for the next job. Yeah? Well, it looks like you got a lot going on.

What are you doing? Well, a man and his prostate certainly has a lot of promise to it. But that's going to get you on the road, right? Not necessarily. I mean, who knows? Maybe we can film it. Maybe we can get it on stage in New York. And just hang out for a while and do it? Look at the mileage love letters got.

For God's sake. And you still like working. Oh yeah. Don't you? Yes. But sometimes I wonder would it be nice to sit down? Well I think I've become too keyed up and geared up

to sit down. I've really got to go up and geared up to sit down. I've really got to go through a long, dry run of practicing sitting down. Yeah. There was never a part of your... Just keep moving. Yeah. How old are your children now, all of them? Well, I've got boy-girls twins who are 51.

Unbelievable. Yeah. And their younger sister is about 48 yeah and then i got my 27 year old in uh connecticut yeah yeah you get along good with all of them i try to yeah do you and you got grandkids seven how's that's great? It's all right. Come on. Come on. I don't drop my pants at the joy of grandkids. Yeah?

Just another sperm order fulfilled. No. Yeah. You don't fill with love in your heart? No. No? I try to give them a fair shake, let's put it that way. Okay.

How old are they? They like my age? They're from 15 to about four. 15 to four are the grandkids? Do they have a sense of who you are? I guess so. I don't know. Oh, right.

Yeah. Do you have any joy in your life, Ed? Well, you know, she's not around right now. You're going to be seeing her later? Yeah. When she comes back from the ashram. Really?

Is that where she is? Do you keep in touch with any actors that you worked with? I mean, are any of your friends actors? Yeah, Peter Jason is a good friend good friend yeah i like him a lot and now all of a sudden i'm just concerned about your life do you play cards do you sit and do i do play cards at norby walters yeah once a month or two when you play poker yeah that's nice yeah what do you do for exercise? I spend a half hour on the elliptical. Okay. And do some push-ups.

Do you? Yeah. All right. You don't want to fuck with me. No, I never wanted to fuck. I knew that when we acted together in that brief capacity. Right. I knew I didn't want to fuck with you.

Yeah. capacity. Right. I knew I didn't want to fuck with you. So do you do the FDR thing anymore or is that done? I'm going to do it in Cape Girardeau, Missouri. For how long? In October. One night. Oh, okay.

Rush Limbaugh's hometown. I'm going to find out what the roots are to Rush Limbaugh. To the monster? What do you think it is? Well, I heard a story a long time ago that initially he was on radio right spouting a liberal format probably and that they came to him and they said this ain't gonna sell yeah say okay i'll switch yeah he's a showboat yeah there's all you know there are evil clowns and there are good clowns yeah yeah right but you probably remember like you know like what was radio like when you

were younger when you were loved it i loved it when you were trying to get into nbc universe i didn't try to get into radio i never did well you did some in high school and you did a little bit i know but i wasn't trying to get into it oh okay nbc university theater of the air yeah escape was another great show yeah that's where i first heard leinigen versus the ants yeah oh god was that great william conrad was the uh narrator yeah and they had little bugles blowing every time the ants marched. You loved it. Oh, I loved it. The theater of the mind. Yes, yes. So that was when you were a kid, you were listening to that. Like what other things do you remember around that?

Radio. Well, Screen Actors Guild presents Lux Radio. Yeah. I thought there were a lot of actors in radio, weren't there? Well, I'll tell you what. Yeah. That's true. I used to listen to the Eternal Light.

I don't know if they were playing when you were. And so when I first started out, I got a, I was still in New York. Yeah. And I went to see the guy who cast Eternal Lights. Yeah. And he said, yeah, yeah, I forget what his name was. So they cast me on a couple. And one of them, and this was memorable for me,

I played one of Moses' generals. Uh-huh. And the other generals were Louis Van Rooten, Alexander Scorby, Norman Rose. I can't remember the others. But five biggest names in radio. In America. Yeah. And I was the sixth.

And I thought I had died and gone to heaven. To me, it was more important than any play or film. And whoever was in it, it didn't matter. Being with these guys, to me, was the mark of success.

Yeah. Was it a great feeling? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Wonderful. I mean, Scorby and Norman Rose. Yeah. Did you ever see the Russian War and Peace?

Mm-mm. Norman Rose was the narrator of it. It's the most beautiful narration you ever heard. And Scorby, it goes without saying, was always great. Was that the only time you really felt that where you're like, these are my heroes?

Yeah. Yeah. I didn't feel it with John Wayne, naturally. Hawks, though? Hawks, I mean,

he's distant. He's the director. Yeah, sure. John Wayne, he didn't love. Well, he was hard not to love because he's such a scoundrel yeah but uh i was too deeply geared in leftist uh identification to uh but he he ended up treating me okay yeah yeah but you missed the, I mean, you missed a blacklist in Hollywood.

No, I became part of it my own, let's say. Yeah. After I took my stand on El Salvador. You felt ostracized? Yeah, blacklisted. Really? Yeah. And that was in the, what, the 70s or 80s?

80. It was 1980. And what was in the, what, the 70s or 80s? 80. It was 1980. And what was your position exactly? Well, that this government had to stop providing arms to the repressive government of El Salvador who were killing farmers and people that they regarded as poor scum, who undoubtedly had to be communists. And you felt that that got you blacklisted. Well, I was a spokesman for medical aid for El Salvador, and people thought I was giving union money to them,

which I wasn't. And they thought that I was aligning myself with what probably was a communist inspired opposition. I can remember the first big announcement we gave was in Washington, a press

conference. And I had always played it careful you know yeah not to not to step on my wang mm-hmm and the former I could the yes so that because I was the spokesman and and the others who were with me, who were also actors, the first questions automatically went to me. Right. So the second question I got was from a cable reporter. He said, you say you're in favor of free elections in El Salvador. I suppose those elections turn out a communist government.

And I went, bam! Oh, shit. Yeah. this government and bam oh shit yeah yeah and i said you come all this way and and you successfully avoided being pegged and here you gotta deliver and i gave some wimpish answer to him moved on to the next guy gave an answer that I could get away with with him. And was so plagued with guilt that I'd come all this way, come all this time, and I was going to not be up front with who I am and what I was doing. And I said, I wasn't satisfied with my answer to you. All I can say to you is that if it's the government the people of El

Salvador choose let them have it and nothing was ever reminded to me of that answer but I felt from that point on my career was dead for how long oh several years really oh yeah interesting did you feel like you lost friends over that i don't know but if they if if they were friends and they left me because of that statement then they can go to hell so but but mostly in in in terms of like if you felt like you were blacklisted it was fear of the studios aligning themselves with a communist sympathizer or a politically lefty actor i found two instances yeah i eventually gave i gave up uh during this blacklist i gave a an interview in washington to see where i happen to be for some reason. Right. And in it, I said that in a blacklist, your liberals join in on that just as much as your

conservatives. Oh, yeah? Because the director or the producer, they won't allow their conscience to say, no, he's a commie. What they'll say is, no, he's too fat or he's too gray or he's overexposed think up some euphemism to not hire me right uh but they would never say he's a commie right so i i said that on that and and and it's what happens and i gave two instances and one was uh producer who one would think was was a was a liberal howard rodman wrote a script for him for a new series

after after lou grant was cancelled and he suggested me for the senior doctor, and the producers. No, I think he'd be a political liability. Well, that's straight. That's straight, yes, but it's... It's blacklisted. It's blacklisted. Right, right. And then a little while longer, and I got a job offer in Connecticut, I think,

or Boston, I don't know, for some network documentary. And the first day, the producer invited me to lunch. He said, you know why you're here? I said, no. You gave an interview about six months ago or a year ago about blacklistinging and I said yeah and he said that's why you're here I said what do you mean he said well I had I had another documentary that I put you down for and submitted your name along with others to the uh to the uh company and the list came back and there was a red line through your name. They said, and I knew why, but I didn't do anything. And that's why you're here now. To make it right.

Yeah. Well, you survived that storm. You weathered it. You stood your ground. There are still people out there who probably wouldn't want to hire me because they think I'm a commie. But you're not a commie. No, I'm not, but I mean you're not a commie. I don't know. No, I'm not.

But I mean, who gives a shit? Yeah. I'm glad you're alive, man. Me too. And it was great talking to you. Good being with you. So that was the amazing Ed Asner. Love that guy guy i love him Thank you. boomer lives