WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 629 - John Ridley

Episode Date: August 16, 2015

Before John Ridley won the Academy Award for writing 12 Years A Slave, he was a stand-up comic. Marc talks to John about the times they crossed paths in comedy clubs and why John needed to leave comedy behind so he could move forward as a writer, a filmmaker, and television show creator. Plus, Marc announces a new partnership for WTF. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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what the fucknicks? This is Mark Maron. This is WTF, the podcast. Thank you for joining me. Right out of the gate. What's going on, man? Women, people, children, animals. How's everything going, filthy animals? Today is John Ridley Day here on WTF. John Ridley is a screenwriter. Won the Oscar for 12 Years a Slave.

And I knew he was writing movies a long time ago. He's written a lot of movies. But what a lot of people don't know is he was a stand-up comic. And I remember him very clearly as a stand-up comic, Mr. John Ridley. And I've always wanted to have him on because it's rare. I mean, I don't know how many Oscar-winning former stand-up comics have I had on this show. How many? I should know the answer to that. But journey was a unique one uh in in my mind from being a guy who i knew at the comic strip in new york i remember some of his jokes even to a guy that

wrote several several movies a lot of television and then won an oscar an academy award i've been trying to get him on for for over a year and finally we sat down and did it was great to see him it's great to talk to him again so that's coming up here momentarily i was in new york for a few days all right i don't want i don't want anyone to go crazy some of you already know because i dropped some hints there were some hints yeah very clear hints there was a picture for fuck's sake i you know i interviewed keith richards in new york and this was a huge a huge day for me i'm not gonna say it was bigger than the president was different than the president but in my life in my heart in my mind it's a powerful bit of business i was excited like a child you will hear this we're gonna put it up in september to uh to align with the release

of um of keith's new solo album but we sat for about an hour for about an hour me and keith one-on-one something happened that hadn't happened in a long time for me uh and something happened that i never thought would ever happen which is i i talked to keith richards we had some laughs we uh we hugged you know we uh you know we we sat there and and I was beside myself. But that's something you can look forward to. I also interviewed Annie Baker. I went and saw a play. Let me tell you something, man.

Annie Baker has written, I've seen two of her plays. I think she's written about five that have been put up and published. I'm not sure. I'm not good at reading plays, but I saw both of her shows are running in New York. One is called The Flick and one is called John. And I saw both of them. And it is so fucking great to go see a piece of theater that is written uniquely and with a certain tone and point of view and sense of humor that is completely hers. And it's modern in the way that it applies to my life, to our lives, to the lives of people of my generation and younger. It's just fresh, man.

Is that the word the kids use? Is that the word we use? It's fresh. It's deep. It's funny. It's interesting. And I tell you, I don't go to a lot of theater because I'm afraid of it. I'm afraid of, you know, I don't go to a lot of theater because I'm afraid of it. I'm afraid of,

you know, I'd rather sit in my garage wondering what I should do for an hour or two than go to a bad play. I'd rather sit and say, what am I going to do today for an hour looking in my refrigerator than go to a bad piece of theater? So it's rare that I get out, but I got out and it was provocative and interesting. And Brendan and I saw both of those shows and we talked for a long time after both seeing both of them. I was excited to talk to her. That's coming up. These are deep teases. I don't know exactly when these are going to be up, but I felt enriched. I felt elevated. I felt like I was doing something that humans are supposed to do, but avoid because it feels far away, the theater.

It always feels like, I've got to go to a play. I don't want to go to a play. Do we got to wear a jacket? But theater should be essential. And it just isn't. But I think with shows like Annie's, there's a possibility that it could be again. It was so elevated to be challenged and excited and full of humor

and crying and stuff at a play. I mean, I can do that. I can do that just sitting at my dining room table on Twitter. But to have the experience with other people

and to be engaged in drama and funny, everything is so disappointing sometimes because here's the death of what culture should be, of what expression should be, of what creativity and entertainment even should be. If you ever find yourself going, hey, you know, it was good for what it is. Well, maybe it shouldn't be. Why do we have to make these exceptions? Why is there so much fucking garbage?

Why are we hooked into massive, brain-numbing, sort of desire-mining advertising campaigns that just rope us into a necessity that we feel like we should be part of? And then you go and you're like, well, how could that be anything but disappointing? Why do we make such tremendous exceptions for mainstream entertainment? It's just like, it's a fucking nightmare. We got to raise the bar for fuck's sake, man. It's just like, sometimes I just, I look at what's going on around me, you know, entertainment wise and culture wise. And I'm like, I just, I just don't know why things aren't just bringing people together and making people more vulnerable and open and connected as opposed to just sort of like being this weird passive engagement with just a few hours of garbage.

And then you walk out and you don't even remember it and nothing changes. And the pace of life just goes on. Need more mind blowing shit. I guess that's my point. We need more mind blowing shit. Can people make some more mind blowingblowing shit i guess that's my point we need more mind-blowing shit can people make some more mind-blowing shit please so john ridley here his abc show american crime is nominated for 10 primetime emmy awards he won an oscar for 12 years of slave screenplay and uh he used to be a stand-up comic and he he rarely talks about that i'm i i think personally that he just wants

to shut the door on that part of his memory but uh i didn't let him so uh let's talk to john you can get anything you need with uber eats well almost almost anything so no you can't get snowballs on uber eats but meatballs and mozzarella balls yes we can deliver that u that. Uber Eats, get almost almost anything. Order now. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+.

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T's and C's apply. I'm Ridley. I live such a insular. I mean, honestly, I built this like house that's like, it just says you're not welcome to come in. And I sit there with my wife and my kids. Where is that? It's sort of, it's in, it's in it's in um the valley in sherman oaks but it's kind of like remember that scene in uh citizen kane yeah citizens kane's talking to him she's like what time is it in new york i bet they're out and everybody's out in broadway in the year and he's like we don't we don't need to

go out we have everything here i'll run a movie for you here oh gee i bet it's nice in central park right now well we don't need central park that doesn't end well john it's not but he figured it out at the end so i figure at the very least you know really you'll have that one last selfish moment that it was the sled it was it was it was you know the funny thing i remember seeing citizen kane and um i was in college back when they still had you know the student union movies before. You could download everything. And there was only maybe 19, but there was still that buildup to Citizen Kane. Sure.

And you see it the first time, at least for me. And you get to the end and you go, what the F? Right. And you just think, well, I don't get it. What is this all about? And then it sits with you a little bit and you go, oh, well, that's all of life right there. It's that one little thing. Everybody has that one little thing yeah that sent you in some direction was the hug you got or didn't get it was the toy you got or didn't get and or just that one good memory that one

memory i want to play in the snow and all the oil all the oil millions and billions that's all great but i just wanted to be in the snow the pure pure joy. Of childhood. And so at some point it comes back to, yeah, you get these things and it's all nice and wonderful life. But when you're staring up at the tiles on your way out, what is that one thing you're going to think of? And what is that one feeling that you never could get back?

Never could get back for a lot of things. And I think for me at least i think i've gotten to the point now where i've started to you know i was telling you that story about my my son and my sons and my dad who's still with us my mom's still with me so i've had that opportunity at least kind of circle back around a little bit but it's funny because i remember you uh because like i i remember not only do i remember you and like I remember not only do I remember you and the

the sort of tone of your being at the time when we do you really you remember that much I do because I remember you

and I remember being around I remember other comics but there I wish and not to interrupt your story I wish I remembered that time in my life I don't even say maybe

our lives yeah better because there were so many people around some known some unknown who were like they were they were interesting there was an interesting time well i think that my my feeling about you like because it was primarily at the comic strip where i would encounter you yes and you know you you know you were doing all right uh you know i remember you got letterman and but i and i and i to this day quote a joke that you wrote there's like i remember a

joke which is um uh that there's a new cigarette being marketed to black people it's called uptown cigarettes i i would have liked to have been in this pitch meeting or whatever it's like uh hey you know bob i couldn't help but notice still a lot of black people around. Right? Yes. And I thought that was such a beautifully concise, powerful joke. Not unlike Jon Stewart. Yeah. Not unlike Jon Stewart used to have a joke after we had sent a bunch of food resources to Somalia. We attacked them.

And he had a joke where he just said, we're bombing Somalia. I guess they're done eating. There was an economy to the power of that joke. But what I remember about you was that you were intense and you did not seem happy. You know what? It's funny. A lot of people would say that about me later in life. They'd find out I was a comedian for a while.

I'm like, oh, you're a comedian. You don't seem very happy. And I think it was beyond, you know, that joke about comedians laughing on the outside, crying on the inside. I really, rightly or wrongly, fortunately or unfortunately, I guess in the end, maybe fortunately, I had this image of where I thought I should be in life. And at that time, at that time. And even at that time, I thought there were a lot of people

interrupting where I need to be and not understanding that, A, you tend to get where you're going to get it. Wherever it is you're going to get, you're going to get there. Life sort of figures out. And B, maybe it wasn't that other people were interrupting my process. Maybe I actually didn't have that figured out. And it certainly didn't end up being in stand-up. And that was something I figured out one day. I was like, oh, yeah, that's not actually for me. So I was not a happy person. Right.

I mean, that's what registered, is that there was like some, you know, you were, like something wasn't happening quick enough. Yeah. No, absolutely. And I really, I still have that problem now, but I think I'm better at not shoving that on other people. And I think at that time when, you know, all of us were in our early 20s at most, you know, to sort of, it's one thing to have that in yourself and go,

okay, I need to be somewhere. I think it's another thing where other people kind of read, you know, we all wanted to achieve something. But I do remember, I think, other people really enjoying the moment. And I think that's one of the regrets I have. Maybe. I think that some comics, you know, part of, you know, whatever that manufacturing of seemingly enjoying the moment was that, like, you're not unlike me in that you know we were very serious people and and you know we were not the the the kind of people that you know if someone walked into a group a room and it was full of people you or i would not be the ones they would go like that's a guy i want to hang out with yes there was there was none of just a that was general gregarious

nature i think there was there was certainly a group of comics who and by the way i think a large group very thoughtful very intelligent very dialed in you had to be because you're writing stuff that's sure very in the moment but um and but it was just interesting because there were there was to be in that group again a lot of people the john stewarts or the adam sandlers or the chris rocks or people that you look back on now, Ray Romano, people like that, where you go, wow, we were in the frickin' clubs at, you know, two o'clock in the morning. Yeah. Hanging out. Yeah.

Everybody was grabbing for a brass ring. Right. And other people, you know, the Mike Sweeney's of the world who ended up becoming great writers. Showrunners, yeah. Writers, showrunners. He was a great comic. Great comic. Yeah.

Really smart, but they're not the people that a lot of other people know. But they've changed, truly changed the course of entertainment. But not only that. Is that what you don't know when you get in. And I think that you realized before I did, or I would never have realized it. Because it was not my trajectory. Was that there were guys that realized. They got into comedy.

And they saw what that life looked like and what the odds were. And they said, well, I've got this talent. i ain't gonna do it here yeah that you know like i can write jokes i have a sense of how this shit works but that life you know to to roll the dice on being one of the 10 guys that makes a living yeah doing stand-up yeah is is it's a mature choice to say it was it's certainly i think anytime you make a career-altering, life-altering choice, suddenly a little bit of maturity sleeps in, seeps in. For me, there was a practical matter. I did Letterman, as you said, and at that time he'd just moved to CBS. That's how long ago this was.

And there was a sense of, okay, he's completely reinvigorated himself. He's made CBS relevant in the late night space. If I do that show then, I'm set and I'm made. And I did the show and the next spot I had was at the improv on Melrose at like 11.30 on a Sunday, which in LA at 11.30 on a Sunday, it's like 330, you know, in the morning in New York. And I was writing on the Fresh Prince of Bel-Air at that time. But how did that happen? So let's go back. So where did you, where did you grow up? I'm from a small town in Wisconsin, just outside Milwaukee, born in Milwaukee.

Really? Yeah. Real, real small town. And- How did your folks end up in milwaukee or that my my my father was uh he was in the air force he was a doctor in the he was was a doctor he went into the air force when he came out he was doing i guess his residency interesting it's the same fucking story as me really yeah based on where your parents and my my dad ended up in alaska he was a doctor and they go into they signed up because they could enter as officers yeah and and yes my my dad ended up in alaska he was a doctor and they go into they signed up because they could enter as officers yeah and and yes exactly my dad vietnam era right was wise

enough to know right did not want to be a ground troop and enlist in the air force as a doctor right captain that's right and my dad was a major yeah and we were stationed in alaska for two years well how old are you i'm 50 so i'm I'm 51. So it's the same generation. That's right. Okay, I'm sorry to interrupt your story. I'm just relating. Basically, that's how it was. What kind of doctor?

He was an ophthalmologist. So let's make the distinction. Optometrist is a skill. Ophthalmologist is a medical practitioner. Medical practitioner and surgeon. They can do surgery on the eyes. Yes. So he ended up there.

My older sister was born on a military base i was born as a civilian where was he stationed he was stationed in michigan somewhere so milwaukee so it's probably the same story it's like it's a it's a the city there's room for an ophthalmologist yeah i know a guy there yeah something like that he's got to practice yeah that kind of thing it was it was yes he. It was very interesting. My parents, a couple of years ago, a few years ago, I asked them to do a family, an oral history. And they did this oral history. And it's really, I encourage anybody to press your parents to sit down and actually talk through their lives. Because particularly my parents, now I'll use the word, the shit that they did and the shit that they lived through just by being regular people is phenomenal.

Like what? Just, you know, choices that they made in terms of going to the military and being a black officer in the military at that time frame when people thought that he could not do things. And the people who stood against him and other white people who said, you know what? Fuck that shit. You're in the military. We're going to help you out. Yeah. Ending up as being a resident.

You know, there was a time, honestly, in my dad's life where he'd talk about, you know, it was this or that. And he was like, well, I ended up being the first black person that did this and the first black person that did that. Right.

And he wasn't like aggrandizing, but little things, being on boards or being, you know, at a hospital. Right. And I, at some point, said, wow, that's really amazing that you did all this. And he said, it wasn't amazing when you were black back then.

He did something. You were the first. But it was just interesting to hear my dad talking about making a choice like that, saying I knew I was going to get drafted, and the smarter play was to enlist. And if I enlisted, I could go in the Air Force. If I went in the Air Force, I could go in as an officer. And you just kind of go, wow, that's – people had to make those kinds of choices back in the day. Well, there's a confluence of choices in what you're talking about.

I think that what people forget, and obviously, you know, I'm not saying everybody, is that the racial issues that existed that we're fighting against are current. Oh, yeah. I mean, like, you know, your father's lifetime for that, you know, that it would be the first. And that's what in the mid 60s or the early 70s. The thing that is interesting to me is that there are many battles that we're still fighting, but they are different battles. Right. And that there are things, the fact that we can talk about about the fact that people can pour out in the streets and demonstrate and it's still

not easy or safe or things don't always people don't use their best nature when it comes to that yeah but it is very different than edmund pettus bridge now. The things, you know, I remember my dad talking about when he was going somewhere to look at housing with my mom and, you know, he got surrounded by a gang of whites saying, you're not going to move in here and this and that. And it's still, if you're a person of color, you can't, you know, there's unfortunately still some place where you can't just show up. But, you know, that's the now, and it's not the rule. So just in listening to my dad's story, but even about Vietnam,

and obviously we're not beyond what people did at that time. Donald Trump was running, and people started asking him about his deferments and this and that. But the reality is however he managed it or other people managed it, whatever choices they made, there was a time when people had to make a choice and had to figure something out because you were going to serve or you were going to find service that was not directly related to going over there but but your life quite literally right and and after a certain point there were people that that did not believe in the cause so not complete but but for

people who whatever if you went to canada if you went and served if you went in better to find you but it impacted i'm saying it impacted people had to make a choice at that point yeah whereas now you know my kids they want me to fill out their college application form that's you know what i mean it's not dad i need you to call so and so because i need to serve or serve somewhere or get out of the country. It's dad, how do I fill out an application? Could you call the dean for me? But what else did you find out? Like where did your grandparents go? What was the history?

When you say oral history. The only, their oral history goes back to when they were, they met, they sat down together, which was also very nice to kind of get the back and forth. And I think my dad went off to service and my mom wrecked his car, which was also very nice to kind of get the back and forth. And I think my dad went off to service and my mom wrecked his car, which was a trait that goes on to, she wrecked my first car. I love her dearly, but that was sort of mom's thing. What'd she do? My mother was and still is a teacher. And now she, for a long time was special ed. Now she

teaches teachers how to teach. so she retired about 20 years ago and through a retirement party but she hasn't stopped working so we're all sort of like i think we want our gifts back at this point but she loves what she does and they're in great shape and great spirits and i think it's because they remain active so that's something else i learned and you have siblings two sisters older and a youngerer sister works in finance on the East Coast. My younger sister works as an executive at an insurance firm in Milwaukee. And she's actually one of the few female executives of color at the entire firm. It's a pretty big firm.

And she's one of the few. So my sisters, they remain driven. Well, it's not. I mean, look, again, just even, I mean, look, your woman, you know, the doors don't fly open. You're a woman of color. They fly open even less. But I give her credit in that, you know, my sisters never were not raised to care. So each of them has been very successful in their fields.

And I don't mean just successful. I'm like rake it in dough, but not allowing whatever the glass ceiling, however that glass is tinted, they have not allowed that to impede their career choices. They're all still in Wisconsin? My older sister's in New York, and my younger sister's in Wisconsin. But your folks? And my folks are still in Wisconsin. So you go to Wisconsin?

We go to Wisconsin. We went there in July, took my son. We're going to go back. So you go to Wisconsin. We go to Wisconsin. We went there in July. I took my son. We're going to go back. The Packers season opener to see them get the justice they deserve against Seattle in that abomination of a game. I don't know why Goodell didn't investigate that. I don't know anything about it, but I like your passion.

Oh, my God. You didn't see that championship game? Dude, I'm not a sports guy. I'm not connected. Well, even if someone'm not a sports guy. I'm not connected. Well, even if someone is not a sports guy, if you saw it, you would have called it a travesty. Okay, it's a travesty. It was a travesty, yes. And now you're going to go back and support your team.

I mean, well, it's the greatest team in the history of organized sports. Okay, fine. You can take that argument up with other people. You're not going down that road with me. I i don't have that i don't have the the information but uh so growing up there you know what were your options what were you like thinking about as a kid you because you're an academy award-winning screenwriter so yeah i gotta carry that around um it's i mean that listen that is awesome and i don't mean it in a hipster way. It is the kind of thing you dream about,

but when you realize the people who've gotten the award, the people that you admire who have not, the people who may never have the opportunity, people who were pretty talented and may never get in the game, it's one of those things you just sort of... That's the nature of show business. It is.

It is. And it's okay to be outside of it. And you talked about when I was young and kind of railing and angry. And then suddenly it happens and you go, okay, what the fuck? Yeah. How did that work out? Right. But when I was, I always, I shouldn't say always.

At a very early age, I enjoyed film and the nature of storytelling. And when I was about, i guess i was probably in about seventh grade seventh or eighth grade i decided i want to be a stand-up comedian based on what based on where comedy was going um richard prior yeah uh i i liked here's the thing i liked everybody my dad used to take me to when comedians came through different era obviously and no youtube and right very little cable access it was a big deal so you know uh jerry lewis would come through bob hope would come through um oh yeah and he would go oh my dad would take me to see everybody you know i remember unfortunately

now at the time it was you know bill cosby coming through the the concept of seeing cosby come through and what he knew would sit would sit in the chair. Yep. And I'm not even going to say, I'm going to sit here in the chair and do my voice and make people. And I would sit there. I remember when Bob Hope came through and Bob Hope, you know, was corny, but it was still funny back then. He was a little darker than people give credit for.

I mean, you know, he, I mean, he was good. He was a good comedian. He was very good. And to be a kid in Milwaukee and have the Milwaukee arena filled up, you know, this is not Madison Square Garden. So to see Milwaukee Arena filled up is a big effing deal. Yeah. And the whole, I mean, down to where the Bucks played and they'd put the seats right up to the stage.

And they'd have the opening acts. And finally, and I didn't understand the concept of opening and all that at the time. So as a kid, you're like, get to Bob Hope. Get to Bob Hope. Opening, opening, opening. Finally, Bob Hope comes out. Funny thing is, we probably know some of those opening acts. as a kid you're like what get get to bob hope get the bob opening opening up with finally bob hope comes out and funny thing is we probably know some of those opening acts when you get to a point you realize you know i would have killed to be that opening right

um so bob hope bob hope comes out and just has the entire you know all of milwaukee basically um dancing on a wire with his jokes. And you look at that and go, I want to be that guy. I want to be the guy. It's not a band. You know, he comes out, and I think they had a band

and a singer opening for him. This and that, and you realize it's not the band. It's not the singer. I remember Jerry Lewis had some dancers and stuff. It's one person, one dude on the stage, and they're just saying stuff, and people are doing, ah.

And they got a point of view, and they got a handle on things And people are doing, ah. And they got a point of view. And they got a handle on things. Point of view, philosophy, whatever it is. It's just they know how to ring it. And then Steve Martin started coming along. And it turned into that. I went to that tour. Yeah.

I never saw him. I don't think I saw him. I would have remembered it. But you remember an album coming out that was in those days. But you saw Cosby. I saw Cosby. I saw Jerry Lewis. I saw, it was funny, when Richard Pryor's album came out,

my dad made me take it back to the store. Which one? That nigger's crazy. And then when his concert tour started coming, live on the Sunset Strip, he took our whole family to go. And I was like, well now. So you saw Richard on that tour? Well, I him i saw the film the concert film but as a family and i'm like why is this now family viewing as a film but i couldn't listen to it as a record

um which all you know is like anything else when you ban it it becomes that much more intriguing also i guess because he thought that if we did it together he could disarm it more efficiently if you were sitting in your room alone learning how to talk like richard pryor it was going to be a problem yeah that was problematic he's like very emphatic he listened to the door for a moment he listened he goes well that you got to take that back and i was like well you mean i can't listen to it you know around the rest of the family no you got to take it back ended up taking him back and it was really kind of furious you know that's what i wanted to do and also even then you know i just i sort of realized i guess intuitively that the comics hours oh yeah must have been really good that i could not get up and put on a tie right at a company sure but i

could you know figure out the jokes i wanted to tell you wanted to express yourself express myself and and be the center of attention but not in the dumbass way but did you like but that's interesting because you know because i feel like we have something in common there. That this was, the thing that appealed to me about comedy initially was like, it seems like you can pretty much say whatever the fuck you want. Yeah. And the only context is it should probably be funny as much as possible. Yes. So, like, in my mind, it was like, I can just, you know, almost figure out who I am up there.

That, you know, I can work this stuff through. That's, yeah. My point of view. It's interesting. Well, you know, as someone who's been around there your whole life and around comedians, yeah, I look back on it. It is that sort of, I mean, if you're the, one of the few black kids growing up in Wisconsin. And people actually, you know, Wisconsin was pretty cool. And I think largely because there were not a lot of black people. And you grow up. There's a lot of Lutherans, right? kids growing up in wisconsin and people actually you know the wisconsin was pretty cool and i think

largely because there were not a lot of black people and you grow up a lot of lutherans right there's a lot that midwestern sort of like oh yeah i grew up sort of methodist and another thing where there were luther it was all that kind of like but no must no fuss religion but there's no notoriously you know tolerant and liberal minded people in in they're tolerant liberal minded because they don't have to ever they're not up against it right right and and that's all really really cool and it was good but there's certainly moments when i look back on my life where things like oh you know that i wonder if that was what you know little things about like the part you didn't get in a play because you had to kiss a white girl and it was like oh you know it was

like well i know i'm really super effing talented yeah yeah i know i'm more talented than these folks why am i playing the orderly and not the lead role so there are things like and it really does become a question you can't say yes you can't say no right but i do think in that there was you are enough of an other in life where, yeah, you gravitate towards, let me figure out some of this stuff on stage. Yeah. And let me try to express myself on stage. You did some theater. I did theater, yeah.

I mean, there was just the plan of me having significance through art. Yes. And so was it going to be theater? No, I'm not really going to be an actor. That doesn't quite work for me. And comedy, you're a little bit more in control of it. Yeah, yeah. And this and that. And then one day it became writing. It was became writing it was no i think writing but when did you start doing comedy uh

i went to new york in after college you know i was in was in college went to nyu not not tish which is just regular nyu english major no my major was East Asian Languages and Culture. What? Yes. My fallback was going to go into foreign service. And Japan was big at the time. And everybody, you know, you go through these phases. How's your Japanese now? Can you understand it? What a way to ask. It's Koshi.

Oh, yeah? Really? So you were in. I was in. I was in. I was going to move to Japan. Actually, I went to Japan for a while after school. But the idea was either going to be a comedian or going to foreign service in Japan.

And part of it was because Japan, everybody was so afraid that Japan was going to take over. And I was like, you know. Get on the winning team? Well, actually it was, let me actually learn something about this country because i have a feeling they're not going to take over here's the big i think the thing is about america is that we are it's a very obviously it's a very stable country yeah and that stability over the long haul services us well right in other countries

oh my God, the Arabs are going to take over. Arabs, they come to go. China, you know, right now China, their market's tanking. It's just people park their money in America because it's stability. Yeah.

And then everybody else goes to shit. And then, hey, look at America. We're just, we're right there still. So whatever's next, Nigeria, India, they're going to park their money here. People are going to freak out. Oh my God, the Nigerians are going to take over. They got their oil money together.

They got all this and that. Nope, they're all going to, they fall off a cliff. We're still here. So at the time, it honestly wasn't, let me get on the winning team. It was, why is everyone so afraid of Japan? What is the truth about Japan? But was there some sort of fascination with Japanese culture? It is pretty interesting to me.

I don't know anything about it, but it seems like... It was what everybody was talking about, but nobody understood. And I really felt like, for a lot of reasons, coming to understand the culture, coming to understand... You know, this was a language

a lot of people didn't speak. So if I learn this language, can I know more? Can I know more about the country? Can I know more about the country can i know you know more about uh process and history and all of that and so in the middle of that and also i was really interested in japanese cinema so at school it was like i went to gallatin and you could just gallatin at nyu is a sort of a create a course of study so it was sort of taking a little bit of study. So it was sort of taking a little bit of art history and a little bit of film

and a little bit of language. You constructed your major. Constructed my major and thought about now that I know all this, you know, I could, it would be great to be an intermediary between the things that I think that I've come to know about the country and the things that I think I know as an American

and really try to become, you know, go into service, ambassadorship. things that I think I know as an American and really try to become, you know, go into service, ambassadorship. Not that I would become an ambassador, but work with an ambassador. And then all of that didn't happen because comedy was trying to... Well, at some point you're like, this is a little easier. I'm just going to go up to the comic strip and... Well, you know, you can't... You may be getting into a fist fight in the morning, you know, at the comic strip, but

you're not going to start a war. You know, you're not going to say that casual phrase that you shouldn't have said or misinterpret a, you know, a missive between countries. And yeah, I don't think I had the capacity to actually work in government service in any way, shape or form. Yeah. Cause it's a, it's sort of selfless in a way. It's, you know, you have to be on your game and you have to eventually some shit's going to

happen you're gonna have to know how to say the right thing or fall on your sword or you know you just gotta be appropriate you really took it out that far this sort of like eventually i'm going to be in the middle of an international event and i'm going to fuck it up well i mean it you pick the tiniest country yeah the most you know docile At some point, somebody gets really mad about some shit. But I just like that you placed yourself in the middle of that, and that was the deterrent to following through with that particular dream. Well, isn't it? It comes to that point where you get called to our office and say,

look, there's heads that got to roll. We've written up this statement. We'd be appreciative if you signed this. And you're like, what the fuck? I wasn't even there. Listen, it's just for the greater good. Yeah, yeah. Three years. You know, you watch Veep.

Yeah, right. And Veep every week, the same person's getting fired. You know, that sounds pretty much like. Take the hit. In a couple of years, you come back. You get a nice job at this. Exactly. We're going to, at some point, I'm going to be the private sector.

Private sector, right, yeah. And we'll have you. We'll have your back. Yeah. So I just, I felt like I didn't have the capacity. I mean, most of it is just at some point you realize you don't really have the capacity to do that. Yeah, and you might not want to.

And it's like how does it encourage creativity necessarily or how do you really? Yeah, it was a box and it would have been maybe. It's a bureaucratic box. Very much a bureaucratic box. Maybe I would have been decent at it, but I wasn't going to. Right. I was going to rise to a certain mid-level. Right.

So when did you first do comedy? Man, I used to be able to remember the date. I guess it was probably about 85 at the Comedy U Grand when it was still on Grand Street was where I first did comedy. Really? I don't remember that place. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Comedy U Grand was where a lot of us sort of very mid-level, you know, when you couldn't, you know,

it was Catch a Rising Star was still around. Those were the best of the best. Yeah. Comic strip. Yeah. You know, I never, what was the one? I never, I don't think I ever worked improv. On 44th Street?

Yeah. Could never get in there. Never. Even when I was really. By that point, like I got to New York in 89, so you started in college, you were in college. Yeah, I was still in college. Right, yeah, I started, I guess, 87, 86, and I did a little in college, but yeah, in 88 when I got to 89, when I got to New York, Catch was still going, and the improv was

dying. It was pretty beat up. And the comic strip remains eternal somehow. I haven't set foot in a comedy club in I don't know how many years. I can't go into that space anymore. Sorry, comedy on grunge. You go. You're a student.

You're freaking. You're sweating. You got your five minutes. I had five minutes. Yeah. And, you know, honestly, two decent of the five yeah and uh they talked to me and they're like yeah you know you're pretty good work on this and that and start coming in but you know all i could hear was you know you can come in you can start coming in yeah and you know i thought

okay well do this for a little bit then i'll get on carson and then you know maybe i'll have the sitcom maybe i'll just go ahead and do the concert you thought that oh i just i was so sure that you had that long-term thinking look at that i can't i never but it wasn't it wasn't good because it was so assured and so arrogant and so you know what i mean i think the best thing in the world is that it didn't come easily because i had it i probably i couldn't i at 20 i was 85 i was 20 sitting down sitting 20 and uh you know i i had things too planned for myself so i think it i don't think i certainly don't think based on my material it was going

to happen right away. Things did start to happen, but there was a real, you know, you get in there and you realize, oh, you actually, you know, five minutes is nothing. You need 10, 15 minutes and you need a good 10, 15 minutes. And these other guys and ladies, you know, they've been doing it for a while and they got some good stuff. Some people doing it for a while and they hadn't broken and you're going to, you know, they've been doing it for a while and they got some good stuff. Some people are doing it for a while and they hadn't broken and, you know, you better figure it out.

But where did you get this thing where, you know, you had to have this plan or that things had to happen? I mean, where did you learn that? I don't know that it was learned in particular. I certainly, you know, my parents were very focused on, you know, nobody's going to give you anything. And it wasn't like they sat me down and wagged the finger. But it was just, again, you talk about that era. And it was just, I think they realized that us living in the suburbs was not reflective of the black experience.

And you better be aware that you've been given advantages. And you better take advantage of those advantages. Now they, they never said to me, you need to be rich or famous or be a doctor or whatever, but that one day you're going to end up in a space where we can't protect you or we can't take care of you. And that was the other thing about the, um, my parents doing an oral history and there was a lot of cleanup that they ended up doing that you're not aware of i mean when i say cleanup i mean going back and checking people because there was the uh lowered expectations for a lot of folks because they said well you're a black kid

and you know um in one incident with my sister where she was ended up being uh you know she graduated with honors and she didn't she didn't't, you know, they, you give them those honor cords. Yeah. I didn't get, um, I didn't get, but I didn't earn it. And they didn't give her one at her graduation. My parents went in, they were furious at the school and they said, you better look at her grades. You better look at the record.

And they did. And she had honors and they were really apologetic. And my mom was like, well, what are you going to do? You're going to, you're going to hold graduation again because you screwed it up so there were i think my parents were always very clear about making sure that we were aware uh that if there were things that we wanted we really had to go and fight for them right that your experience growing up in the household that you you grew in, that once you left that, and once you left that state,

that there was a reality awaiting you. Reality, and I think it was interesting because they didn't raise this like, okay, you're black and the man is going to be out to get you. And you're black, so never trust white people. But maybe I interpret it or hyper-interpret it is that you got to,

whatever it is you want to do, you got to do. And it was interesting because I was really shitty at most things in life and really lazy. I mean, very genuinely lazy about most things

until, except for things that I wanted to do and then I was hyper-focused on doing those things. And I think that's something I've carried. I'm not really good at, you know, if I had my son's treasure hunt today, it was his birthday, I was telling you about that.

And it's a really haphazard, half-assed. You know, even if my wife were doing it, you know, the clues would be printed out on a nice piece of paper and they'd all be very lyrical and all this. And I sort of print out my computer and half-ass cut them out and kind of stick them there. Why was it your job this year? It's always, it's just something my son and I have developed.

And it's not that we're cutting my wife out, but it's just something we developed over the years. I'm just saying when my wife does arts and crafts, it's something you could sell at a mall. Right. And when I do it, it's something you could sell at a mall. Right. And when I do it, it's something that looks like you picked out of a dumpster. Do you think that had any effect on his decision today? Which you told me he's done with it.

Yeah, he made the very mature decision. He announced that. He's doing his Kobe Bryant retirement lap. This is going to be it. I just want everybody to know how much I love you, and this one for the fans i think it's just he can read my my he's old enough to read a dad's body language right that you know it's like you got to go to bed at 10 o'clock because i'm not staying up all night to right right to manage it to do all this stuff and he's like okay dad i know you're hard working and then you feel like extra crap because it's like how old is he he's he turned 12

all right and so they're kind of reading in you you get that point where you you know the kids are reading yeah you know the reality it's done and you're like oh yeah fuck that's not what i want yeah that's you know and then when he's doing it it you know your heart is breaking because it's like you know you know don't don't reach that last one. Yeah. So I think we're going to reach some kind of a, we're going to renegotiate and see if we can get one more year out of it. Maybe change it up a little. Yeah, maybe, you know, it'd be shorter. He wanted a lot of clues this year, and we may negotiate for, you know,

half a season. Play half the season. Less clues, bigger presents. Something like that. He's also, he's very sad because he's like, you know, there's no gifts. Everything's a gift card now. Everything is, you know, iTunes card or something like that.

So the pleasure is gone for kids. It's just, you know, I just want you to PayPal me. Right. Some kind of thing. But your parents were preparing you in a way for something. They certainly prepared me in a way I think is harder now to prepare kids. I guess what we're saying is, though, like, you know, you were lazy and you did not, you know, you weren't focused. Yeah, we were talking about that.

But the things that I obsess about, like my writing, like being involved in the shows or scripts. Stand-up I kind of obsessed about. I think there was the gap, and I don't say the self-effacing, but you know, there's that gap between you can prepare and prepare and prepare and other people just have a point of view or perspective

that there's a sharpness. Not that they don't also prepare a lot, but they can take that joke or that line or whatever. You were in it for a while. I was in it for a while and I did well. Six years, seven years?

I did it from probably 85 and I probably officially quit in probably about 93, and then still did it a little bit, and then I remember the last gig I did, Andy Kindler invited me to do a show. I was still kind of around, and Andy was doing shows. He was like, I want to do a show. Yeah, out here.

It was funny because both you, there was another black comic that I thought was brilliant and and and thoughtful and and did you know very sophisticated stuff which wasn't easy in stand-up comedy clubs and you were one and Warren Hutcherson Warren who also went on to become a big writer yeah and Warren I actually Warren I knew really well out here I'm gonna actually written on a couple of things and a couple of projects. And it was interesting because Warren and I were very similar in a lot of ways in perspectives and I think temperament. And I think we both sort of saw that writing on the wall. And we had something else to turn to, but it was just, yeah, there's not really that space for the quieter black guy.

Why the black guy olives in the can. Right. Those sort of subtle jabs at race. And he certainly found space to explore those things. And I was fortunate, I think, particularly over the last couple of years, finding those spaces where I could explore race or class. Sure. Well, what happens, what was the day that you hit the wall?

Was it after Letterman? Like, when did you move to LA? So I moved to LA in 90. And it was one of those things, everybody was moving out here because they were getting holding deals. Holding deals was the big phrase. The development deal, yeah.

The magic $200,000 deal. Yeah, right. And everybody was saying, John, you can come out and you can get a holding deal, a development deal yeah the the magic two hundred thousand dollar deal yeah and everybody was saying john you come out you can get a holding deal right development deal and i was and every you know people say it enough you actually believe it yeah so i came out here and couldn't get couldn't get nothing and came a manager brought me out here and was one of those things i mean it was one of those which guy um i almost i know who it was and i don't want to say it because i just don't even give them any more credit than than they deserve. But he had some black comics.

He brought a few people out here and moved out and he stopped answering my phone calls. It wasn't even he'd seen me on stage and decided to stop. It was just, and it was one of those things where I was like, I just effed up. What did I do? I'm in LA, got nothing. Biggest mistake of my entire life.

Calling your parents, I fucked it up. I couldn't even call them because i didn't want to yeah the doctor and a teacher hi i'm in la and i got nothing got nothing um and i started writing i mean that's when i started i started you know doing clubs but there's not as much money or it's not as accessible right in new york and also when you come out here you realize like oh my god some of my heroes are just doing these 1030 spots. Oh, I remember getting bumped for Leno once. And you're just like,

and then, you know, and Leno was really apologetic and he's working on material. You know, couldn't be a nicer guy, but you still got to then follow Jay Leno and you just realize this is the life.

These are the people who are now dropping in. You know, it's not just the really good club comic who's really great in New Jersey. Right. It's these guys yeah you know the big shot oh the biggest of the big you know tim allen is gonna do a special and he's working on a couple you just like oh okay and you're just sitting there yeah you're just sitting there watching the audience just you know walk out after they're done and you know you can't you know you open with the hey how

about that guy what What's his name? Yeah. And you get the, hi, that's just really funny. And then after that, yeah, it's the, you know. Starting from nothing. From beyond nothing. Yeah. And again.

A vacuum. You know, the guys who would bump you could not have been nicer, but it's that, hey, sorry, kid. Yeah. Yeah. It's the way it works. I got to, I'm doing Caesars on Friday. I got to work out this amazing 20 minutes.

So there was not a lot of work. The work you could get was not a lot of money. There weren't, you know, in New York. So you never did the road, really. I did some of the road, but, you know, in New York, you could supplement with the stuff in Jersey and all of that and make, you know, pretty good bread. Didn't have a car, didn't have car payments, didn't have insurance.

Right. Had a little teeny tiny place and you could eat in New York for cheap. Right. Out here, nothing. You gotta drive to McDonald's to get that deal that is not a, you could do Papaya King. Yeah, in New York.

Yeah. Go walk across town. Walk to Sixth Avenue. Oh my God, those were the best days. I forget how good those days were. Just out in the city. It's all alive. Out in the city,

dead broke, but if you had, I don't even think the subway was a buck 25 yet. It was maybe a buck. You could get anywhere in the city. Papaya King,

99 cent. Yeah. Hot dogs. Hot dog and a drink. Yeah. I think you could get a drink for the 99 cents. Yeah,

with a papaya drink. At least a hot dog. Yeah. So you could live. Yeah. But that's what life was. So you come out to LA, you're getting a drink for the night. Yeah, with a papaya drink. At least a hot dog. Yeah. So you could live. Yeah. But that's what life was. So you come out to LA, you're getting bumped by guys like Leno, you got other payments, your manager's not calling you, you're not getting this development deal that everybody

else in the world could at least get it. Maybe not the sitcom, they got the development deal. I said, what's the only other thing I can do? I can write. And how'd you get in? I got to, you know, what's the only other thing I can do? I can write. And how'd you get in? I wrote a couple of spec scripts.

And I did two things in very different directions. I wrote a couple of spec scripts for TV shows. And I had a friend who was an assistant at an agency who got me to an agent who got me. I ended up getting a training program at Fox which saved my life and was paying 500 bucks I think a week but it was 500 bucks a week yes as a writer trainee and the other thing I did I wrote and this is sort of weird I loved I loved crime fiction and I loved reading it and I just said, I'm going to write some crime fiction. And I wrote a little novella more than a novel.

It was a novella and it was called straight dogs. And my agent got it to somebody, a manuscript who got it to Oliver stone, who made it into this film called the U-turn. I love that movie with Sean Penn, Sean Penn, Jennifer Lopez. I remember when I saw you wrote that, I'm like, holy shit. It was the weirdest, you know, going from studying Japanese to wanting to be a comedian

to kind of getting into TV to sort of your really big break is this weird, really weird nihilistic novella that ends up in Oliver Stone's hands and was not even like a big movie, but was just like a cult movie. And then people were like, hey, do you want to write movies? And I'd end up then, I'd end up moving over to Whit Thomas,

which was Paul Witt and Tony Thomas' company and did like Golden Girls and was actually doing the John Lear Kett Show with Mitch Hurwitz. Who did Arrested Development. Did Arrested Development. But you said you worked on the Fresh Prince too? I worked on Fresh Prince and I did half a season on Fresh Prince and then I went over

to Larroquette and U-Turn was I think either just coming out or just come out. Were you in the rooms? I was in the rooms. I was in the writers rooms. I was doing all the fun stuff. Again, like a time in my life I underappreciated at that time. But you're sitting around

with some of the funniest people. There's a Laraket, Mitch Hurwitz, Pam Brady, Will Gluck, Jonathan Schmock, Jim Vallely. Yeah, the funny boys. Yeah. I mean, just really, really, really funny people.

And so Paul Witt was walking down the hallway we're at sunset gower yeah and i think uh u-turn was coming out or just came out and he was walking and he's like you know if you we're in the film business too if you ever got a film idea and i i was like yeah i got a script i want to show you and i didn't have a script yeah and i went away i went i literally went away for a week and i wrote this script that ended up it changed but it ended up being the film that was Three Kings. Masterpiece. I was involved.

There were many changes, but it was one of those things. This is where, going back to where I said to you, there are a lot of things I was really lazy about. And then there were things where I was like, Paul Witt walking down the hallway saying, do you have a script? And I said, yeah, I got a script. And I didn't have a script. And like I said, I went and I said, I'm writing a script, because if this guy who, he and his partner, legends, not only legends in show business,

but at that time before the FinCEN rules changed and you had these big independent producers, they're huge in television. I was like, okay, this is a rare opportunity. I'm going to get a script to this gentleman. And I was very fortunate, and making movies ended up being, it took a long time,

but that was one of those things that really changed. What was your relationship with David O. Russell? At the time, my relationship with David, David goes off, he does his thing. Takes your script. Takes the script, rewrites it, which to me also I will say was just an early education because being a comedian, you write your stuff,

and it's your stuff. Being on a TV show, it's certainly very collaborative, but as a writer, you're very involved. My first film was from a novel that I adapted. Your novel. So it's all my novel. So everything is yours, yours, yours. And that was the first time with David where you learned that there's a whole other different process.

And it was not good or comfortable or pleasant. But I will say, which was also very, very nice, this past year uh at the oscars you know he was one of my biggest supporters and was very vocal in the support of me and the script that i wrote so it was nice it was very cyclical was there was there issues early on it was just not comfortable being rewritten i don't think it was comfortable for him having somebody again a young black guy who was raised to not just go along to get along go that well you know right so you fought it i i don't we never personally right thought but it was never comfortable right as two very strong-willed people and how much of your stuff do you see in that film

i would say the story the setup the circumstances everything else else, the direction, the dialogue, the sort of off kilterness. That's all, you know, David and what he is a writer and his writer director brought to it, you know, and now, you know, I'm very, you know, at the time it's very uncomfortable. People would say about three Kings, you know, like, you know, you don't know your part in it, you know, certainly, you know, 16 years later. And I think both of us are doing okay. Yeah. You can, I think i can objectively look

at it and go this guy made an not only an amazing film but being part of that helped make a career for me yeah and but you you still did during this time i mean i guess in the end you still did television still did television i mean i love to write so i was still doing television i was working on i segued in from half hours into dramas. But you did the show, though. Was that Sam Seder? I did the show with Sam Seder. Yeah.

That's where I met Sam. Yeah. I actually, I racked up a lot of TV. Yeah. So I did the show. Yeah. I did Larroquette. Yeah.

I did Martin. You did Martin? I did the Martin show. I did Martin, then Fresh Prince, then- But this was just as a staff writer. Yeah, I was still a staff writer. I think as the, by Martin, I think I was story editor. Uh-huh.

Larraquette, I may have been like executive story editor. You know, every year you get a little extra something tossed in your title. Yeah. By the time I got onto the show, show i don't know maybe executive story editor maybe i don't know that i was a producer on any of those right by the time i got into i did a show called trinity with john wells very short-lived i think it was a producer a consulting producer third watch a producer then i went and did a show with the Coppolas. I'd worked with the Coppolas previously. And I did a show on two things.

Francis Ford Coppola was going to do a version of Pinocchio that never got made. And I worked with him on that. How was that working with him? Unbelievably great. Just phenomenal individual. What did you learn? Everything.

Everything's a hyperbole. I learned this, is that you can talk about success and failure in the same breath and not either be, you should not be ashamed of one or overly aggrandizing of the other. And Francis is the kind of guy,

he would talk about his, you know, he talked about, he thought one from the heart was going to be one of the greatest films ever and it didn't turn out to be he thought dracula he didn't feel like that was ever going to be his best work and it turned out to be one of his biggest hits um you know he just talked about he talked about in patent where you know now we look at that scene with george c scott in front of the flag is one of the great iconic scenes he talked about in Patton where you know now we look at that scene with George C Scott in front of the flag is one of the great iconic scene and talk about he had to fight for it and fight for it and the studio didn't get it it's like well

where's the audience and is this before is it a flashback is it whatever and he said to me you know the things and it is a fundamental statement but hearing it from Francis Ford Coppola makes it you know one of the life altering and also like he did a lot of movies that sort of fall through the cracks like that what was that one the Gardens of Stone but also one of the films that he did that to this day in terms of what

informs me and the language of cinema that I try to use when I've directed things like Always By My Side or American Crime. There's a little film that he did that George Lucas was a producer on called Rain People. And Duvall was in it, Jimmy Kahn was in it,

James Kahn, Mr. Kahn, I should say. What he does, and it's actually about a woman who is on an exploration of self, very existential film, and very feminist film. How old? 70, maybe 70, maybe 1970. So it maybe so it's one of his first so before conversation uh before the godfathers uh all of that and how he approached editing or how he leading a team of individuals approach editing sound language of cinema space i mean honest to god if you watch that film you will see you you get teed up for this is going to be one of the great directors

of all time and mr coppola i'd worked on red tails with which george lucas produced and my kids went to the premiere my kids were there my parents there. It was honestly probably the greatest moment of my life. It's all right. So anyway, Mr. Coppola's there. Yeah. And just the nicest guy. Oh, John, haven't seen you in years. Oh, your wife, she's so lovely.

I look at my kids. I go, I'm sorry. It's okay. I said, you don't know. I'm sorry. It's okay. So I said, you don't know who this guy is. Yeah.

But you've got to remember this moment because one day you're going to start seeing films and what this guy has done and how he's informed the language of cinema how he's informed the language of cinema is just amazing yeah and so i even now i still say to my kids i say do you remember that day and they're like oh god yeah but you know to be there you Spike Lee, who's been a big champion of mine in my career, he was at the premiere. George Lucas was there. Francis Ford Coppola.

My parents, my kids. My uncle was a Tuskegee Airman. So that moment, you think that career-wise, it's not going to get any better. And then over the last couple of years, that it has gotten even better. Right. And there's still more rewards. Right.

It's just been, you know, it's been life-altering. So I get a little emotional. Like, it sounds to me that because of the intensity of that moment, that this is, you know, you really put your heart into it. And there was a lot in the balance of how that was characterized both for you personally and to honor the legacy of those guys.

It was all, in all, it was a transitional moment in my career because there had been, I had a really nice before. You mentioned a lot of the TV shows I'd worked on or things that I'd done or being able to work around other individuals like David O. Russell, very creative, but at a little bit of a distance. And in that time and space, you know, I was obviously getting older. My, you know, I had a family. It was around, you know, 2000. That came out actually in 2012. So we as a people, you know, the economy had gone through crap. The entertainment industry had changed.

You know, it was harder to make. It was hard. It's hard to make films at all. Yeah. It was harder to make any film. And I really felt like this may be a singular opportunity. Right. And, you know, obviously working with somebody like George Lucas was a big deal.

Yeah. Telling a story that's about us, all of us, but also very specifically about black American history and trying to prove to people that it's American history, it's not just black American history. And then you sort of feel like, well, maybe this, maybe, maybe this is it because I actually didn't have a lot on the horizon at that point because, um, I was very dissatisfied with a lot of the few opportunities that were out there. Um, the business was constricting and I felt like, you know, the things that you could chase that were becoming, you know, the Marvel type stories or DC, you know, the best of the best

are, are being offered that. And I was not in that category. But what category were you in? I was in the guy who made some interesting films that people didn't really see, you know, undercover brother or U-turn or three Kings, which is not, you know,

those are all sort of cult films. But, but also like in television, it seemed that like over time, you know, you were involved with wanda and yeah i was doing one so i wanted to uh who i didn't know i got introduced to him became a really really good friend has a very particular point of view and we were doing a very particular show so there were

people watching and loved and other people were baffled but did you feel that you were were in black entertainment no it wasn't even that because i to me what i part of my life's work and i don't want to overstate that like yeah right sure sure trying to win a Nobel Prize, but is to show people black entertainment. It's our entertainment. Right. And one of the things that always breaks my heart is Richard Pryor becomes mainstream. Well, he's not really black anymore. Eddie's not really black.

Will Smith's not really black anymore. And it's like, well, what the fuck? It's like once you succeed, it's like, well, now you're an outlier. Which is crazy. Which is crazy because it's like, well, we can't do this movie over here because it's not Will Smith. So it's a black movie. But that's the whole point. He became mainstream because everybody loves him and his work.

So why isn't that all mainstream? So I never felt like there's a problem with doing stuff that was, quote unquote, black. The problem was other people weren't looking at it and saying this is mainstream entertainment and again as an aside over the last couple years even now when like kevin hart would have a film that opened really big or when best man holiday opened big and yeah the language was well you know those films overperformed you know that's what you would read in the trades they over and it's like no they didn't fucking overperformed you didn't read the appetite for all audiences to go see those films. So I've always felt like there's that battle between that sense of you're just doing genre entertainment versus, no, it's actually entertainment for everybody.

Don't consider it genre entertainment. So I never had a problem. You know, Wanda was, she was, you know know really at the height of her game and there was something she wanted to do and I think the folks that we were working with had no concept of how best to work with her so I ended up working with a lot of really interesting people who us we were not mainstream talent yeah Keith Robinson is not mainstream talent. He's funny as shit, but I don't think the people who wanted Wanda and Keith were like, okay, you understand that what you're getting

is better served on HBO. It's like, no, no, no, we're going to put this on broadcast. And Wanda comes in saying, I'm just doing my thing. And they're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, but we're going to end you up, we're going to put you at a desk, and we're going to have you talking to whoever's selling a show this week. And what happened with Barbershop?

Barbershop was another thing where it was. But you created that. I didn't create it. They were doing it as a series. Yeah. And they said to me, you can. And I said, you know, Barbershop, it's a very particular brand. They go, no, no, you can do whatever you want.

You can do whatever you want. I said, okay, I'm going to do whatever I want. And, you know, especially having worked with Mitch, you know, kind of doing this sort of, Mitch Hurwitz doing this sort of odd stream of consciousness comedy. You know, that with Barbershop, with the people that we were doing with, those three things did not align at all. So I really enjoyed it. I had a great cast, great group of writers. I think Warren was on that as well warren was writing on that and we were doing this really stream of consciousness very subtle i mean it ended up being that subtle jabs at race and i think warren actually

no you know it was it was um lance crowder yeah lance was on the show and lance wrote in and among great jokes but he were talking about one thing in particular. He was going, look, the whole, he was a black guy saying this, that the whole point of desegregation was so that we could go off and live by ourselves. And so, you know, those kind of, you know, it was that kind of subtle humor.

And so you do 30 minutes of that and people are just like, you know, your corporate masters are like, what the fuck is this? So that was a great experience but you know again it was niche and you're writing books all along the way writing books all along the way and you did procedural i did a show that was a procedural show um well i did crime novels yeah every step of the way and then did a show called third watch yeah that was probably the the biggest hit that I'd ever been anywhere around and probably is what saved my little bit of a career that I had.

Yeah. There was a little bit of respectability on my resume. But I'm just retrofitting this because this is all leading up to Red Tails. Yes. And that cathartic moment you felt at the peak and the emotional resonance also came with this idea of everything changing and you not really being sure where to go from here. Yeah. So there comes a moment where I absolutely felt like I've gotten nowhere. I don't know where I'm going to go.

I can't keep doing niche stuff. You can. Right. But at some point people are going to go. I can't keep doing niche stuff. You know, you can. Right. But, you know, at some point people are going to go, well, why are we giving this guy a check? Yeah. And, you know, you can go find a nice little alternative space to work in, and that's great.

But I didn't, you know, I got a wife and a couple of kids and mortgage. You know, that's not going to work. I did not fit in, though, with any bigger thing. I don't think I had the wherewithal to just do something small and curate that. I didn't have the- Roll the dice. Well, not even so much roll the dice, but really curate it in a way that um people take that and they go oh that is such a really interesting thing and your voice is so unique now we understand where we're going to

subsidize that yeah because we get it you we're seeing you in all of that i don't think i'd done anything right that you know i kept here was the problem is i take something like undercover brother or what became three kings or even U-Turn. And I was passing it off to other people who were very, very talented. But whatever it was, maybe I was trying to say in that was then being dissipated in other people's vision. And certainly Oliver Stone and David Russell had a vision and were being lauded for their vision as they should. But whatever I was bringing to it or even not bringing to it was then being obfuscated and what other folks were doing so at some point i never really that sometimes

that's a writer's dilemma it is the writer's dilemma that you're creating something you do it well enough to get it off the ground but people lose that people lose you in that yeah and so i had not done that thing where even through red tails which emotionally was phenomenal i still looked at and go okay but that for right or wrong that wasn't me and i got to the point where i said i gotta start really you said it you know i i really need to roll the dice on me and it's either going to come up a winner it's going to come up craps and it comes up craps i know i need to maybe go back into foreign service yeah or go into brush up on that japanese see if i can work that out or i'm going to show people this is what i'm all about and maybe they will maybe that is strong enough to carry me through the my waning years so

a couple things happened and one of them was um beginning the work on what was going to end up being 12 years a slave. And the other thing was beginning work on what was going to be this film, all this by my side, that was about the year Jimi Hendrix spin in London. Um, that was a real crap shoot cause we didn't have rights to certain music and this and that.

And I was like, I don't care. It's not about the music, which may be heretical to say about Jimi Hendrix's life. But I said, I want to, I want to talk about this person. What was that?

Why Jimi? Because when I was a kid in Wisconsin and everybody was listening to rock music, I was like, okay, I want to fit in. And, you know, rock music, and rock's good. I liked it. I grew up on it. But, you know, I didn't want, you know,

the Stones or those guys. Peter Frampton is those guys. I need somebody who looks like me. And Jimmy looked like me and rocked like them, but was cooler than everybody. And I was always fascinated by this guy. And I ended up being more fascinated by his story than his music.

I think over time, I mean, his music is amazingly mature. You can certainly whip your head to it. Timeless, yeah. But at some point when you really get into the deepness of it Bold as love and little wing and the things beyond, you know watchtower. Hey, Joe, you know There's a whole other thing that's going on there And also him, you know his ethnocentric nature that most people don't acknowledge and are not aware of which is great But then to a degree he transc is great, but to a degree, he transcended race.

But as a person of color, you still have to deal with that. Yeah. And in some ways differently than people would think. You know, the Black Panthers early on were kind of pissed because he wasn't doing enough quote-unquote black stuff.

Yeah. And his whole thing was, man, I'm for the people. Yeah. You know, not... Right. Don't look at me one way. So there were elements of his story

that were really fascinating. But both of those gigs, there was no money involved up front. With either 12 Years a Slave or the Jimmy thing. No, and it was very liberating in the sense that now I've got to make it work or it doesn't work at all. What happened to that movie?

All Is By My Side, Andre Benjamin played Jimmy. We played at Toronto. All Is By My Side and 12 Years both opened at Toronto. This was side and 12 years both open at Toronto this was a passion project for you that came out

you I wrote it and I wanted to write it and direct it I'd been pitching it around at some studios and everybody was like they didn't quite get it

because it was like it was just a year in his life it's not it was when he went to London it's when he went to London he went to London under the name Jimmy James doing Jimmy James

and the Blue Flames came back Jimmy Hendrix, but also came back with the style, with the look, with obviously Nolan Mitch. So that was his cathartic moment.

That was his transformation. It was his origin, his transformation. But at 23 years old, was actually kind of washed up. It played with Isley Brothers, I Can Teen the Turner,

Little Richard. Didn't fit in, goes to London, comes back to Jimmy Hendrix we know. I wanted to tell that story. And fit in, goes to London, comes back to Jimi Hendrix. We know. I wanted to tell that story. And then he goes back to London and blows everything out of the water. Well, he blew everything.

He played at the Savile Theater. Well, he went back to London, unfortunately. When he really went back, he died. He was basically three more years. But he played at the Savile Theater. And I'll make it as concise as possible. He had, you know, he'd clapped and seen him, loved him. Beck, Townsend, everybody. And Paul McCartney. That was the time. as possible he had you know he clapped and seen him loved them back towns and

everybody and Paul McCartney that was the time when that was the time on Sunday yes at the Savile Theater which is in our our show we actually got the Beatles and their estates to allow us to use sergeant pepper in the film and Andre Benjamin does that performance and just i will use i think fucking only the third time andre destroyed and and the film did not get a wide release but the reason i talk about that film is that the way that i i pitched around the studios everybody's like we don't get it we don't get it you don't have the music why is it just that year in london it's about him and his relationship with linda keith who's one of the amazing unsung heroes of rock and roll. And I said, because this is about this guy's life. This is about

him. It is not meant to be just about the music. There are other songs that we can get. And we're also not chasing these performances that you cannot... I don't want to lip sync them. I want to take performances that no one has ever seen and create them when he played at the Polytechnic and Clapton saw him and all this and that. So anyway, people wouldn't bite on the film. And I said, fuck it. I'm making this film. I'm tired of people telling me no. Yeah.

So I was going to do that as a writer director was going to write 12 Years a Slave. There was no money involved. How did you get that gig? Was that your choice to write 12 Years a Slave? That was Brad Pitt's company. And there's a gentleman over at Brad's Pit Company who sat myself and the director down. We were both very, very, very unknown. And you've said whatever you guys come up with. There's a guy, Jeremy Kleiner at Brad Pitt's company who just, I'd written a movie about the LA riots that has not yet been made, but he

thought that the script was just phenomenal and spoke to perspectives and spoke to issues and spoke to things that have not even come close to going away in the 20 plus years um so he sat us down he said whatever you guys come up with we want to make this movie so we sat down and we ended up coming up with well we we found this memoir you and steve mcqueen yeah of solomon's which basically is you know one of the most powerful documents i've ever read um so at literally at the same time and i mean literally not a lot of people use that incorrectly but 12 years a slave and all this by my side we're shooting at the same time so 12 years was shooting louisiana all this by my shot side we shot in dublin and you're directed post in london was directing so as in time difference i was prepping one film during the day and writing you know doing rewrites on the

other one at night um then even more ironically both of them opened at toronto film festival in 2013 and then out of the festival and this i have have, you know, I sent it to my mom. So Entertainment Weekly picks four films that they loved out of the festival and puts little pictures. Two of them, two of them were, one was 12 Years a Slave, one was All This By My Side. So, you know, you go from nothing to, you know, finally, you know, honestly, in a good way, the arbiter of pop entertainment of crossing over, saying two of the films that you were involved in. And the third one was Gravity. And I don't remember what the other one was.

I think it might have been Rush. So all of a sudden, you're in and among that. And then from there, the time that it opened in Toronto, 12 years, through obviously the Academy Awards the following year. And then all this by my side did not get a wide release. You know, Andre did end up getting nominated for an independent spirit award, which he deserved. Um, I can't be objective, but I can just say, and then, but ABC ended up seeing the film, the executives at ABC and they saw that and they loved it. And they said, you know, you're, you're writing this thing, American american crime do you want to direct it and i said yeah i'd love to direct it and that you know had ended up making you know this next phase of my career you know american crime and you know getting the emmy

nominations it's just been an amazing last couple of years as as a director actually i ended up not getting an emmy nomination as a director but as a writer of years. Actually, I ended up not getting an Emmy nomination as a director. But as a writer, the show got nominated. Tim Hutton, Felicity Huffman, Richard Cabral, Regina King. And that's your creation. But that writer, creator, executive producer. And we're in what season now? We're in season two. We're shooting season two.

We start shooting that in about a month. Are you appreciating this now? Now I appreciate it. Having gotten to a point where emotionally I was steady, I didn't have a big flame out with booze or drugs or things like that. But a moment where you go, okay, I think this may be it for me.

This may be the end for me. If I can't make this work and I'm going to roll the dice, as you say, on two films where I'm not getting paid, there's no big fee. They were both independent films, and they're both these oddities on paper. You're trying to make a film about Jimi Hendrix that's independent, and it's not sanctioned, and you don't have these music rights, but you want to tell the story that hopefully has an emotional velocity and emotional honesty, and you're writing another movie about slavery that is not the let's run out and see that film this weekend in a subject matter.

Oh, it's Friday, that slave movie is opening, let's get the kids. But both of them worked in their space, both of them did what they needed to do in terms of representing the subject matter as well as representing finally i think what i was trying to say whatever point of view and not even just a political point of view but in terms of a stylistic point of view being very observant being very fundamental being very sparse um and letting the moments drive themselves rather than trying to create some kind of artifice yeah necessarily around or bombast what do you find that like obviously with the jimmy movie you know you were

your relationship with the director was very close probably too close i probably the thing that i learned is you're better off having a little distensation between yourself what was your relationship with mcqueen it was i i said at one time and i meant this it was out of all the people that i'd work with he was the most fun it was really a fun time because i think we were both so interesting that you say that about that movie great time well i think when you're dealing with that kind of stuff you you have to enjoy the process because when you get to the work it's you know people were really it was really really emotional now i was not around for the shooting i went down there for a little bit but

because i was shooting this other film at the same time i was in dublin but for the moment you know i was down there i think in the in the scene where chew a tell wakes up in the slave pen and is beaten and you're there for a couple of days and you go, okay, these folks have been with this 35 days. The subject matter was with it for 12 years. Our history as America was with it that peculiar institution for 150 years. And you wonder why we still deal with it because it is mass psychosis. That's the only way it works so that was an education you know um but yes from the time that we sat down to the time the movie gets made it was just interesting because you're also around someone who has a very

interesting viewpoint and it's just very interesting to me he makes me laugh yeah you guys are all right yeah you know as much as i am with anybody i don't i don't get out much and socialize it's not my thing you're awfully hard on yourself buddy i'm i think i'm i've as i've gotten older i think i try to be more honest with myself to save other people the the hassle of having to be honest with me do you know what i mean yeah but but are you sure you have the the proper perception no i don't think any of us do but i think that i i've i'm cognizant i'm more cognizant of that guy that you probably remember 20 some years ago right who was just furious about getting to the next point and saying, I've been fortunate enough to have another point.

And it's been probably in terms of the creative space and the recognition of not only what I'm doing, but the people that I work with. Now you get to work with people, people like Hank Corwin that most people don't know, who's one of the great editors yeah in history of cinema and you get to work with somebody like that and it's like well we're just going to enjoy this and when we did all this by my side we were just like we're going to enjoy this and people are going to be baffled by it but now we have the opportunity to take that that befuddlement and really drive it forward. And that's worked. So I think that I'm more aware of a level of presentation, but I'm also more aware of 90% of the time

I shouldn't be presenting myself to anybody. So I sit at home and, you know. Well, you know, you choose what you can handle, and sometimes other people, you know, you can't handle it. What are you going to do? Well, I think that that is the big thing and I think that that is, I think I've always been good about not,

and again, going back to my parents instilling me, but I'm not worried about, you know, how other people think. And I think that big chunks of my life, people have been like, oh my God, why would you say that in public? Or why would you do that? Because why would I care?

I'm not here to win a popularity contest. I don't willfully want to hurt people's feelings. And I do, like the majority of the time, I just sit in my house and just sit in a room and try to work on the things that I do. But in those moments where I know that I'm going to go out and be around peers or present things, you go, okay, if you're going to engage you know engage in the sense that you love what you do be pleasant and pleasant and pleasant in the sense that i'm not i'm not here to actually cause strife you know somebody said you know treat your enemies like your friends because then if a conflict comes you know that you've done everything that you've done you could to avoid conflict but you can adjudicate that conflict without guilt yeah so there's that sense of yeah

i'm out here to really you know to to love the creative process and love people who create but at the same time that doesn't mean that i'm going to abdicate my own points of view right but it sounds to me like you know and for for my experience with you now is that you know you have achieved a type of success that that can own proudly and you enjoy it. I enjoy it more than I ever could have thought. I enjoy what it has afforded me. What I really enjoy about the whole Oscar thing was being welcomed in the Academy as a member

and that sense of fellowship. That object itself is it's, it's not anywhere where I can readily see it and it's not around and nor any of the other objects and not because we're not proud of them, but because it's sort of like, um, there is, if you're, I think if you're all human, there's that little bit of, you know, 99% of you is so sure of everything. And there's that 1% that is louder than any part we go

Yeah, I don't know if this should be in my house or if it should have gone to you. Yeah Yeah, these guys are those but is it this lady is a writer? But like I you know, I don't know like in talking about your parents and this sort of like These historic things. Yeah, how many how many black people have won Oscars for writing screenplay? There was one one other one of guy yeah wrote uh precious so it is one of those things where you know i'm not the first i'm not breaking ground but you go you know if we threw a party we could do it and you know well you know what band yeah this is great talking to you and and and you know what i love you started a fucking comic you were a fucking comic i did and

there's maybe one day you know just you go back and i don't know one sometimes you don't have to go back and i think it's interesting that you can't even go like you're not you can't even go i was talking to literally talking to some comedians yesterday and we're talking about clubs and i said i can't go in. And not because it's a bad traumatic space, but it's just one of those things where it's like, it's not, I feel weird in here. It is, but- Should I enjoy it?

Should I- But it is a traumatic space, because it probably triggers, there's that sweat, man. When you're in it for, you were in it for six, seven years, waiting to get up there, and I can't imagine. It's a weird feeling but you did all right buddy you know and i'm proud of you thank you good to talk appreciate it thank you very much and thank you for having me it was great to see john i i enjoyed that conversation and i like him it was touching go to wtfpod.com for all you WTF pod needs.

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