WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 631 - Jerrod Carmichael

Episode Date: August 23, 2015

Still in his mid-20s, Jerrod Carmichael already has a reputation in comedian circles as a comic who has the goods. Marc talks with Jerrod about his rapid rise, which includes an HBO special directed by Spike Lee and a new NBC sitcom called The Carmichael Show. Jerrod explains how he stays grounded through all of it and why he still has an impulse to make things messy. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series streaming February 27th, exclusively on Disney Plus. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing with cannabis legalization. It's a brand new challenging marketing category.

legalization. It's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Lock the gates! and ACAS Creative. the fuck buddies what the fucksters how are you what the fucking ears what the fuckadelics yes yes this is mark maron this is my show this is wtf the podcast i'm talking today on the show we

have the uh the wonderful gerard carmichael a young gun a guy with the goods it was it was good talk man it was intense and uh and funny and lit up he's all lit up this dude he's got a show on uh what is it where's that show going to be happening it's going to be the car michael show premieres this week actually wednesday at nine eight central on mbc and i'd reached out to him before because there was a lot of buzz there was a lot of heat on this man car michael smart funny fucker i did real time the other day. I was on real time with Bill Maher and I think it went pretty well.

I felt good about it and I approached it a different way than I usually do. Now, I think Bill's great. I like Bill. I know he's a difficult personality for some people. Some people love to hate him.

Some people love to love him. But he's very good at what he does. He's very on top of it. He does his homework. He's part of the dialogue. he's very good at what he does. He's very on top of it. He does his homework. He's part of the dialogue. It's all real and happening right then. His monologues are written by brilliant dudes. I know a lot of them.

Billy Martin, Chris Kelly. And, you know, he delivers jokes like a dirty Johnny Carson. He's a classic television monologist. And the show is what it is. It's political, but it's been around for 13 seasons or so. It's a working machine. And sometimes it packs a punch, man. So I'm always thrilled when I get to go on there.

But it does mean I have to re-immerse myself in the world of politics a bit and get up to speed. And I'm always surprised at just how far I've drifted. Yes, i interviewed the president but i used to spend a lot of time on the pulse of politics every fucking day crunching the news figuring out the angle getting involved with the the pace of the bullshit and i gotta be honest with you choosing to pull myself out of that was the best decision i ever made in my life but sometimes i feel a little out of the loop so getting decision I ever made in my life. But sometimes I feel a little out of the loop. So getting up to speed was exciting. Doesn't take much to get up to speed.

But the point was, or is, that generally when I get the topics for real time, I just freak out. I'm like, I got to write a bunch of jokes. I got to write a bunch of jokes. I got to find my place to put them in there. And I had some opinions on some stuff and i had some things i wanted to talk about but i also didn't want to come off as a a self-righteous strident angry asshole i know that guy that guy lives within me that guy is a guy that wants to take me down from the inside and he's punching my brain right in the right behind my eyes right now sometimes but i know for me that when i get that kind of fire going when i feel that crack hit of rage that it's not always about what it's what's coming out of my mouth or what i think it's about it's usually about that crack hit of rage and we i think there's consensus on

cracks not good for you and rage isn't great for you either but this time i just tried to do something different i tried to honor who i am and i want to honor who i am in every conversation and where i've been coming from so i just uh i got up to speed i talked to my uh producer brendan who's a political wizard of sorts knows what's going on and all things don't even know where he gets time to load his brain up with shit but he knows everything about everything on a day-to-day basis i think he actually has a some sort of usb plug in the back of his brain up with shit. But he knows everything about everything on a day-to-day basis. I think he actually has some sort of USB plug in the back of his brain that just plugs into the back of his head, and he just downloads the Internet every day.

He's one of those guys. But he's up to speed, and he can get me the angles that I need and get me the info I need. So I go over the stuff. I go over the Trump. I go over the Hillary. I go over a little bit of Social Security, but that gets in the weeds the hillary i go over a little bit of social security but that gets in the weeds a bit go over a little bit of the obamacare business some ashley madison

stuff i get up to i i'm all of a sudden like you know involved in the news of the day so instead of being compulsive and freaking myself out and panicking about jokes i just panicked in general and i just you know got an angle on stuff and thought about things and you know thought about how i'd respond to things maybe if i had the opportunity and i was on the show with uh senator claire mccaskill representative donna edwards charles cook a british dude writes for the national review sort of a hitchens-esque intellectual sort uh and a guy named dan butener i believe is how you would say his name. We wrote a book about blue zones, I think they're called, where people live longer, whatever the case. We did the thing, and I felt good about it,

and it's always great to see Bill work because it's one of those things where you're dealing with a professional comedian who's been at it a long time that has broadened his spectrum and is able to do what he does. No one really does what he does, and he mixes up you know he's just solid he's he's he's been at it a long time and he's got it and he's got a thing you gotta you gotta hats off to those guys but he's also i i like to watch bill work and i like talking to him he's very quick so we do the show now this is about this is about anger really it's really about anger and i got a guy i know who was in town i'm not going to mention names you know he's he's trying

to get into the racket get into the business one way or the other i'm not even sure how but he's an all right guy i like the guy but uh after I do the real time, I go do a spot. I run up to the comedy store. I do a spot, and I run into my old buddy Tom Rhodes, who I haven't seen in a long time. Tom Rhodes has come in from the road, and he's now got himself an apartment here in Los Angeles. Tom Rhodes is a great comedian, an old friend of mine.

Spent about a decade out there living the life of a roaming gypsy internationally, doing the stand-up, living hotel to hotel, and living the life. But he's settling down. It was nice to see him. So me, Tom Rhodes, and this cat go out to Cantor's to stuff our faces with some unhealthy Jew food. After I got off stage at real time, this cat had said to me like, I'm a little surprised that you didn't call Bill out on his racism on that one joke.

He's from Texas. And I'm like, well, I didn't register it as racist at all. Are you familiar with what Bill does? He sort of pushes the envelope a little bit, but I didn't register it. He's like, oh, well, it felt racist to me, and I'm surprised that you didn't call him out i'm like who the fuck you're like i felt it right then this was right after the show it's like you what i'm gonna sit there on bill maher's show

and talk shit to bill maher about you know his choice it's just like not only did it not register as racist but like who says that to a guy you think you would like it just like you know you would have gone you know it's like you're lying to yourself. It's just it's like the fucking equivalent and show business of some sort of armchair quarterback. You know, guys have done very little to show for themselves. And they'll just sit there and just sort of like, yeah, you know what you should have done. Yeah, I know what you should do right now. Shut the fuck up.

But, you you know everyone's entitled to his opinion so we made it through that and i'm like well i get where you're coming from but i just think you're wrong so then we get to a canters and he just starts going on again he just starts continuing i'm like he's like you know i he's like i don't like bill maher he's not he's not a he's not a very good comedian i'm like what are you talking about he's a great comedian and his monologues you know he does like a carson style monologue he's very tight and i just he's like i just i just don't i just don't like him i'm like this is a guy that's you know built a thing that works and not only that he's a button pusher we need button pushers and he's a he's an antagonist he's

a provocateur he's a shit starter so you know no matter what you think of him or how the show is now or what it used to be, whatever. You know, he's good at what he does. And it's necessary that someone is out there doing that. Okay. This isn't about Bill Maher. This is about where my self-righteous comes from, you know. Now, the last time I'd seen this cat, I did a show of his that he hosted

in Austin, and it took place at an abandoned shopping mall where he had a TV operation set up. And I talked to him. I like the guy. It's not an issue. It's not about not liking the guy. It's just like, we're sitting at Cantor's. He's like, I just don't think that Bill Maher

works hard enough on his comedy and I'm like I just I'm like what does that mean he does a weekly show that requires a lot of research and organization I mean I just I'm not getting it he's like no I'm okay with the show just don't think he works very hard on his comedy it's like what fucking difference does it make I mean I get your I mean I got opinion, but he wouldn't let it go. And I just finally, I was like, who the fuck are you to sort of shit on a lifer? Look, if you're a comic, I respect and we're sitting there and we're shitting on people. That happens.

Is it come from insecurity? Does it come from bitterness? Does it come from, you know, honest to God, you know, reasonable criticism, all of the above. But if you're a guy that's just a comer and, you know, and, and, you know, I don't know what you've done. The last time I saw that guy, he was wearing a bathrobe and a wig. Fine. I mean, I don't know what kind of show he does and maybe it's my fault, but the truth

of the matter is, it's like, I just blew up and I felt that, that, that crack hit of rage. I'm just sort of like, what the fuck? And I felt it congeal and come out of my face like a thought fist. And it felt good in the moment. But, you know, afterwards, I didn't feel great. And I had to apologize and, you know, and just rephrase it and just agree to disagree. But it's very funny about how emotional I'm getting about my business, about people who are in my business, respecting the people in my business and understanding the struggles that we all have and how hard it is to get successful. I've also become very emotional about little things. Not little things.

Just emotional. Just seriously, man. things but i just i'm just emotional just seriously man where's your opinion coming from where does it come from like why am i saying what i'm saying about that that person is something i really feel is it thought through is it grounded in something intellectual or rational? Something is a reasonable criticism or is it just me being a dick? Tricky, hard to tell. All right. I'm very excited now to share with you my conversation with. Gerard Carmichael, a new comedy star. The Carmichael Show premieres this Wednesday at 9, 8 Central on NBC. So check that out, and let's talk to Gerard.

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Have you ever been on stage and you hear your voice back? Sometimes it's terrifying. Because if you're hearing that and you're noticing it, it's not going well. It's not going well. But sometimes I feel like I'm recording a song and I'm immediately listening to playback. And sometimes I'm like, oh, this rhythm's not bad. It's not a bad rhythm. So you can detach from it enough to like, you have a certain amount of persistence and perseverance no matter how it's going up there. Yes.

Oh, yeah, absolutely. So I guess sometimes it's nice when things aren't going well, if you can hear your own voice, just go, that's enough. That's entertaining enough for me. That's entertaining enough. Yeah. Here's the thing. It's like, it kind of is like sex where it's like, if you had great sex before, you know it's out there. You know it's possible. Right.

And even in the middle of not so great sex, you're like- It's still okay. It's still okay. You still know. You still got a goal. You're going to get back out there. Sure. Right.

You're like that on stage. You're like, well, this chick's not that into it. She's not into it. You're going to get back out there. Sure. You're like that on stage. You're like, well, this chick's not that into it. She's not into it. We're not locked in. We're not connecting the way I want. Yeah. But she seems to be volunteering for it. So, look, we can get through this.

Next time, same chick, different chick. We'll figure it out. I wish I had that disposition. Well, I mean, i didn't when i started but i think i have it more now yeah it used to always be a fight with me i you know it's just a let's provoke these fuckers yeah and see how far i can push them yeah and then uh and then and then even when they come around let's make it worse there's no reward there was no reward not really not it was all like oh well do you did you always what was

it always your intention to be an entertainer i mean because i sometimes when i started and i know the kind of shit that you kind of push yeah that there there is something about there might be a difference between being a comedian and being an entertainer sometimes yeah and it's it's funny because i do have this innate desire to be an entertainer, right? Right, yeah. But when on stage, especially when I know an audience hasn't been pushed to that place, I mean, part of the benefit, part of the beauty of doing, I think, comedy in New York and LA is that it's these marathon shows.

So you are finding out where you fit in and like like within a lineup right how do you how do you define your shit how do you define your shit right how how is this exactly like how do i stand out amongst all these other guys so it's like in 12 minutes in 12 minutes in 12 minutes so if you feel like an audience hasn't been pushed right yeah and you feel like everyone's just giving applesauce yeah like you gotta you gotta put a little medicine yeah here's a bowl of shit and sometimes you give them a bowl of shit yeah like some sugar on it look what i just did i just i just fucked your heads you'll remember that you didn't laugh much but you'll remember you'll never forget that's right which is a major percentage of it not it's not a bad thing yeah not a bad. Because I've laughed at some guys and then been like, what's his name?

Oh, yeah. Yeah, sure. A lot of times you go to clubs and it's hard to differentiate between the point of view. That's the thing. It's like you can hear different voices and shit, but you listen. Is the point of view sort of the same? Yes. Is it detachment from it?

Yes. Yeah. Absolutely. But I think that like what you seem to have been doing is just taking the risks to define like in my mind the stage is your territory you can do whatever the fuck you want with absolutely that's like we were talking about with miles davis in the house is that you can push it all you want and by doing that even when you push too far you know you at least know the space you have to work with yes yes you know you got you

know all the rules right then break all of them right for a little while for a little while but i mean you it's like why why the fuck do we want to do the same thing that everybody else is doing no i mean that's the most boring that's not art it stops being art and that is it's like where i gotta get off board because it's just so boring right and there's also that point where you're like, well, how much of what I'm doing is like there's a difference between pushing people farther than they're willing to go and just being truly yourself. Yes. Do you know what I mean? That's, I think, what you're trying to find out.

What's in between that? It's like I can fuck with them this much but why am i really doing that yes when when it stops being honest right you have to because it's like it's like when uh you know we both say things that are edgier but you can tell i think they're honest thoughts right it's not like right and then you know take that yeah shocking yeah you know like it's like because that's fruitless that has not that you know it's that. Yeah, shocking. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, like, it's like, because that's fruitless. That has, you know, it's like, this is an honest thought. Like, I really, it may be fucked up. And it may be, but this is an honest feeling that I've had.

It's an honest thought that I've had. It's an honest way I've viewed something. Right. And I'm not afraid to share that with you. And that way, even if it's, you know, provocative or shocking, at least you have this connection with the audience that's authentic. Yeah. Because, like, if you're just doing shock shit, that's really defensive.

Like, you're actually hiding. You're hiding. You're hiding behind, you know, buzzwords. Yeah, this bullshit. Yeah, yeah. Blah, blah, blah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Abortion.

Right. Blah, blah, blah. Molestation. That's right. Blah, blah, blah. Right. And then, I fucked her. Like, you know, it's like, what are you even saying? Is there much of that around anymore? Is that still happening then I fucked her like you know it's like what are you

what are you even saying is there much of that around anymore is that still happening I mean like a little bit I think so a little bit it's a little tired though right

you know like you see because you feel it that they're just trying to well now it's gone to where shock existed now it's been replaced with absurdity yeah

you know and we went through oh that's back yeah the absurdity of just like and this is the most absurd thing that I could say that I could ever say you know and we went through like the fit yeah the the absurdity of just like and this is the most absurd thing that i could ever say you know what's funny though but some guys uh had a friend angelo bowers who uh who the guy died the guy passed away and was that new york that was here that was here yes started with him car accident that was horrible i remember that guy you started here he started here you start

here i started here as well yes uh-huh and he was so nothing he said on stage was the truth yeah everything that he said was kind of like just these made-up things if you knew him you knew that's how his mind worked it's like when you watch you know jim carrey you know or watch you know robin williams and and these these things they aren't just saying so you know, or watch, you know, Robin Williams and these things. They aren't just saying, so, you know, the other day my wife, it's not like just these personal stories, but it's true to their sense of humor. That's right. If you can feel who they are, then that's cool. Yes. And Angela would say some of the most absurd things in the world.

And I usually don't necessarily connect that well with some of that sense of humor when it feels contrived. Right. But it didn't feel contrived with him. Because you knew him. Yes. You got a feel for him. Yeah. He, more than anybody, inspired me to be more myself.

Right. Like, more than anyone I've met. That guy. He's just like, that guy. Yeah. It's probably my, like, I dedicated my special to him because he's probably, like, one of my biggest inspirations in comedy. Really? Absolutely. It's nice when theyations in comedy. Really? Absolutely.

It's nice when they're your peers. It's amazing. When every day, just hitting mics, just mic after mic after mic with Angelo was one of the most beautiful experiences of my life. It really was. Always new stuff. I remember we did my first Montreal audition. We were doing the audition. And I saw him writing in his notebook,

and I was writing in mine. And I remember walking over to him and whispering, like, you know, we're probably the only two comics in the country trying new shit on the Montreal audition, right? And we just wanted to, like, we just had to take that risk. We had to take that chance. Sure, sure. We're the only two comics willing to sabotage our sets because we're the real deal exactly these people fuck these people but really kind of right

sure man i look believe me i i know they're amazing i love the people of montreal but like as far as industry is like it's like if you can't be yourself then what's the point no that that's true and like it took me a long time to learn certain lessons about that but i think there's uh there's it's part of our nature uh as comics usually like if you got the bug to do this when you were a little kid there's a lot of fuck you in it no but but have you not no there's an insane amount of fear in comedy of course but like like i talk to guys about even staying on montreal right and i would talk to guys and, even staying on Montreal, right? And I would talk to guys and they would say, well, I hear the people of Montreal like it when you do this or you do that. And I'm like, who can't do, be yourself.

Then you go and then you say like, oh, I don't do that. Yeah. Yeah, I don't do that. It's why I haven't done a late night set. Yeah. Because I was like, oh, well, then if I can't just go be exactly myself. Well, that's the trick, man. Right?

Yeah. Because I think back in the day, the late night sets, at least you had seven minutes, eight minutes. Eight minutes. Maybe you had a shot in eight minutes. Yes. Now at four and a half. Four and a half.

It's hard. You almost have to write these set up punch things, even if it's not you. Right. You've got to find the three jokes. Yes. That you can mash together yes no i mean when i was doing those sets i knew i wasn't going to be exactly what i am in a live situation but in my mind i was like well this part of the job i'm a comedian i get to be on tv in this context yeah that's one of the available outlets how do i fucking master

that that was the way i thought that's what i mean which is a great way of thinking it's like it's almost in a good sense it's a great business way of thinking it's just like you know we're comics that's part of the job and there at some point i got that in my head yeah every one of our heroes did that shit yes yes but but it's it like anything else right like with the sitcom with everything uh when it starts becoming a thing, that's when it gets dangerous. Because doing a Tonight Show set, sometimes I see guys, some of my friends, and I'm like, they got the suit on. And I'm like, you would never do that.

You would never do that. Well, I think when you were younger, and you're coming up in a different time, that when there was just three or four outlets, and the thing was Letterman letterman or or uh or or carson you know uh or leno afterwards i didn't have much i didn't do leno till the last year he was there just because i got my yeah well also i i my my personal uh philosophy is like only do things that would look good in a time capsule right so like you're the last year of like a thing well it was it was one of those

things where i i never i never had that much respect for him necessarily like he used to be a great comic but he was sort of a panda monkey on the tonight show but like when i was hurt panda monkey before but when i was a kid and coming up it's like letterman was the guy yeah and we like that was the grail yeah so when you did your first letterman you're like holy fuck yeah and it was pretty amazing because it was this huge theater. It was cold in there. And it was a real theater. And you respected Dave.

And you wanted him to like you. Yeah. But I wore a fucking suit. And it was a shiny suit, dude. Really? Yeah. I didn't know how shiny it was. But I look at that first set.

And it was tight as fuck. And it was good. And it was me. But it wasn't like me that you would see in a club. Yeah. There's no way to do that really in five minutes six minutes yeah yeah it's so you just avoid it all together yeah just i i attempted to do one i got a uh letterman actually i got a note it was like i sent in a

tape and it was like we prefer more set up punch line like like that more that structure and i was like oh i'm cool what so you're not doing it so i just didn't do it huh like i don't know how you work but i feel like we work similar like you know you write ideas and then you just you just talk them out is that what you do i mean you know yeah it's like yeah it's like ideas and thoughts right so then you through a certain amount of repetition it polishes itself and and grows up in public. The joke. Yeah. So, like I just had an experience last night at the store where I've been doing this line and this bit

for a few months now, but it just never, what didn't click as hard as I wanted, I never understood why, because it ties back into an earlier part of the bit, and last night it just like, it did what it was supposed to do. Yeah. But it took months, and I can't tell you why.

I don't know why. Yeah. It just did. why yeah it just did right it just did it had its night yeah sometimes a line i wrote in 2010 oh yeah just shows up right or how you're like oh i know oh i know how to talk about this right yeah yeah i thought you know i pulled it back in sometimes or different pieces of shit from the or how about when like when a punchline is delivered to you, you know, when you've got a bit,

it's not all done, but it's funny enough. Yes. And then you're just doing it. And then one night this thing drops in, you're like, where'd that fucking come from? The whole time?

Yeah. The whole time that shit, yeah, that was, that's what was missing. I was waiting to happen. Right. This whole time,

like, oh man, that's. And then you're like, I gotta go back and do my special again. I did that. I put, I put unfinished thoughts of the special yeah it wasn't that what it was called uh yeah yeah unfinished there was some unfinished thoughts it was some thoughts it's just like oh yeah no and then and then there's that well where did like you started here but you didn't grow up here i'm from north carolina i grew up in north carolina what part uh winston-salem really yeah i i like north carolina do you yeah i was uh it's a i i tell

you weirdly i you know i as as i get older for some reason i was you know very judgmental of the south for very specific reasons and a lot of them were probably real but they weren't my life and a lot of them had to do with stereotyping you know yeah? Yeah. But as I go back now, I'm like, fucking, this part of the country, although I used to do a joke that was like, in the American South, there's an ignorance that runs so deep, it actually has integrity. Ha!

I mean, that's the whole Confederate thing, right? Right. It's ignorance that transforms into integrity. It just, it is what it is. Almost, almost. It is what it is. Almost. It defines the place. Yes. Even if it's, thank God it's not as active, but clearly racism exists.

But the region is charming. It's a beautiful country. Good people, for the most part. You know what I admire is sometimes just the ability to just hold on to something. The problem is sometimes it's the wrong thing. But just to hold on to something, just to have a set of values. Gotta believe in something. That you just hold on to it.

And life just is, it's a bit clearer. Wrong minded shit, but he's committed. He's committed, man. He's committed. The grand wizard of the KKK. Evil motherfucker, but he knows what he thinks. Evil motherfucker, but think about how simple his life is. He wakes up.

He's like, do you still hate niggas? Yep. Still don't like them. Time for breakfast. He eats his waffles. Yeah. You know what I mean? His life is pretty simple.

He eats his chicken and waffles. He still hates black people. Which is ironic as fuck. We said it's ignorant. Yeah. But it's like just this guy that just has a simple life it's like you're holding on if he just adjusted that just changed one word to love right same simple life is just yeah that's the weird thing about that and you know and i talked

to uh president obama who was sitting right in that by the way yeah that's his cup is that his cup yeah look at who else's cup with that be? It's got the presidential seal on it. So who brings this in? A little lady. He's got a little lady with him. It's always a little lady. Yeah. I don't know if it's always a little lady, but they have a food person.

And she comes. With his tea. Yeah, and then puts that in there when he sits down. Did you offer? Yeah. And you offer. Sure. And he says.

Well, she came in before, so he was set up. He had a water. He had the tea. Even before you get a chance. I'm not going to offer him cereal. What am I going to offer him? You want a bowl of cereal? I ain't got a lot of shit in the house. Maybe got some bran flakes and raisins.

You want some of that? Why not? Just to see. Just to see. He would have. I had a lot more on my mind, dude. It would be. I know.

By the way, that was a great thing. Yeah. That was an amazing thing. I was like, I think I was supposed to great thing. That was an amazing thing. I was like, I think I was supposed to be here. I got bumped for Obama. I got bumped, by the way. He told me to book you.

He said, Obama said, I'm a fan of that Carmichael kid. I was like, cool. I've gotten bumped by worse. That's right. You did get bumped by Obama. I got bumped by Obama. I was like, I got bumped by worse. I can handle that. Wait, so North Carolina, when did you leave there?

How old were you? 20. You were 20? Left. So you just said, Mom, I'm going? Yeah, basically. I was working at a shoe store in Winston-Salem, and a guy came in, and I was thinking about moving to LA.

I was, once again, going back to wanting to be in entertainment. But what, you were in high school? Just out of high school. It's this gray area of just doing nothing. Sure, sure. What am I going to do with it? What am I going to do, you know, part-time at a shoe store or whatever? Like shoes, shoes, or sneakers, or real shoes?

Like finish line, sneakers. Oh, yeah, yeah. What do you have on here? Sandals. Okay. I can't give you any information on those. I'm sorry. I got nice shoes. I got boots, man. I got red-. Okay. I can't give you any information on those. I'm sorry. I got nice shoes.

I got boots, man. I got red wing boots. I'm a boot guy. We didn't sell. You would have hated everything in the store. If I needed sneakers, I would have been all right. Yeah. Was that a mall?

You had a mall? At a mall. At a mall. Mall walkers. Small mall? A decent sized mall. Pretty decent sized mall. So you're eating at the Chick-fil-A?

I'm eating at the Chick-fil-A a lot. I'm eating at the Chick-fil-A a lot. chick-fil-a a lot i'm eating at that chick-fil-a a lot there was a burger king upstairs there was a sheets there was a yeah sheets i don't even know what that is that was i mean you've been on you've got a local chain you've driven by one a sheet on your way to a hotel to somewhere in the middle it's a food place some places a food place and gas station i didn't say it was. It's a food place. Some places are food place and gas station. I didn't say it was classy. It's a food court. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. So just all of that.

And I was thinking about moving to L.A. To do comedy. To do comedy. I wanted to be an entertainer. I always wanted a show. I always wanted... It's these things. That vague?

Yeah, not specific. I didn't know I wanted to do stand-up. I wanted to be in show business. Didn't know you wanted to do stand-up. You wanted to be in show business. I wanted to be in show business. Didn't know you wanted to do stand-up. Didn't know specifically stand-up. I thought that it was almost arrogant to just be like, oh, really? I'm that guy? Like, oh, I know what funny is.

I'm not one of those guys. But what did you grow up with? You got siblings? I have an older brother, Joe. What's he do? Joe is now a stay-at-home dad and yeah really like loves it yeah why wouldn't you he loves it the wife's working wife's working my sister what my sister-in-law she's been in the family for so long i just say

sister yeah look at her as a sister and she's uh you know working she's in education nice and how many kids they got smart they have two uh-huh i have a niece and nephew and he's just doing that thing he's yeah and like a great dad which is weird watching your brother be like a great dad how much older is the guy he's eight years older than me oh really and yeah and so the the guy that used to just punch me in the chest is now now years older he's punching oh man are you like punishment yeah he waited till i was three oh that's good and respect to joe yeah he waited till i was three to hit you to hit me in the chest he was 11 yeah he was 11 so he's just jealous of this little fuck that yeah taking all the attention well i was also probably you know i

was a bit over you know i was a lot as a kid kid yeah yeah it's a lot as an adult I love God love God so so you know older brother wanted to be in showbiz a guy comes in right to the store to the store yeah I don't even know how we got on the conversation I think small talk of just what do you do right and he says oh I'm an actor out in la right i don't know what his name is i don't know why he was in winston-salem i don't know if he's from winston-salem yeah but he said i i said oh i was like oh that sounds so cool man i was like i want to i really want to do that and he said yeah just move i was like what what and then he said i'd never heard of craigslist i'd never heard of west side rent told me, he was like, just go on there and find a place.

I was like, oh. I saved up what little money I had. My sister bought me a plane ticket, and I'm in LA in like six months. Really? Yeah. No plans? No plans. I wanted to do, by that point, I knew it would, I have a great friend, Ashley, who kept saying,

it's stand-up. You have to do stand-up. This is someone you grew up with? Someone I went to high school with, grew up with, great friend of mine. And she was very, she was, you have to do stand-up. Did you listen to stand-up? Yeah, I loved stand-up. When you were a kid?

Yeah, Prior Cosby. That was it. Sinbad. Yeah, sure. Carlin. Yeah. Louis Black. Sure. You know like like the ones that just really stand out i like simbad's in there simbad simbad's in there simbad by the way talk about not writing

anything down put on shows man no big shows simbad put on shows he wore some outfits yeah my buddy javar just texted me he was just like hey man simbad's i'm watching a simbad special man you gotta re-watch it yeah i haven't watched in a while i saw him in um at south by it just destroys sure oh yeah you know like just a real entertainer yeah real entertainer and uh and so you know we watched you know and two sides of that thing are like simbad and cat like you know yeah the guys that just like cat williams will ramble darkly yeah and then blow your mind and sitting bad just gonna ramble and bring you up he's gonna bring you up yeah he's gonna bring you up man it's gonna be

afros and bell bottles yeah you know and he's and just a great entertainer and we and i watched a lot of stand-up we were um we were into it and we really watched and my dad was very much so this is richard pryor this is what's why. Oh, really? Your dad would sit down with you and say that? Oh, absolutely. Here's the record. Let's put it on the CD. Yes, and let's listen. And because a lot of the exploration of my stand-up is like, why?

The why. My family is very much so great at articulating why something. Why they like Richard. Not just he's funny. It was like, this is why. What did your old man do? he's a truck driver okay so he loves he's in the truck he's listening to this yeah yeah he listened to it all as well yeah listening all his life uh what did he say to you why because because it was important what he was saying it was important and it was interesting yeah you know what i mean like like it wasn't and

and that that always stuck with me like it's just like i didn't i don't want to just say nonsense it's like it was important provocative yeah provocative but in in the best sense of the word you know like like going back to what we're saying not shocking provide like genuinely provide a heart a lot of heart like the man really exposed his soul when he's up there rough stuff man yeah rough stuff and just going there and talking about Bill Cosby told me about

seeing Richard Pryor on stage which was by the way great so wait you had an audience with Bill Cosby

I went to Bill Cosby's house I talked to Bill Cosby before the shit hit the fan before the shit hit the fan yeah so Bill Cosby how does he reach out to you I get a phone call from my agent yeah says hey dr what are you doing tomorrow at three uh mr cosby would like to speak with you this is before

hannibal dropped the bomb this is before before hannibal dropped before hannibal not knowingly unknowingly unknowingly dropped the bomb okay. But on information that was sort of out there anyway. Yes. So, okay. So you're like, fuck yeah, I'll go talk to Bill Cosby. Yeah, fuck yeah. Yeah. It's like, even if I had plans, I'm going to go talk to Bill Cosby.

But that's interesting to me because, you know, there is a, I think even in your relationship with Spike Lee. Yes. That, you know, when they see a guy that's got the juice and that's gonna you know represent black entertainment on some level yeah that they're gonna like well we're we're the guys we're gonna we're gonna sit this guy down there is a there is a bit of responsibility yeah i agree so that was why cosby, I imagine. Yeah, yeah. That, I just signed it. I mean, I've been in a deal with NBC for years.

So I just signed the deal. Oh, and he had a deal too. He had a deal too. Actually, this was before he had a deal with NBC. The new deal. Maybe he saw you as a threat. Who's this person? Let me go see.

Yeah, let me go see. Take this motherfucker down. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right, all right, kid. Yeah, yeah, kid. And he told me a story about seeing Richard Pryor on stage. What year? Like early 70s.

Okay, so when Richard was big or right before? This was right before. This was during the transition. And he said uh he said he saw he saw prior lose an audience for 35 minutes something that he would never do yeah bill yeah he always has you prior he said he saw him not have them and he said he was just explaining he was just explaining stuff for like 35 it was like and trying to find emotionally explaining explaining he said and then explain and then at like the 35th minute he said something clicked and then he said for the next hour uh and this is coming from bill cosby which controversy aside i mean you know right

is you know bill cosby bill cosby right uh and so not bill cosby the rapist yes bill cosby the comedian the the the excellent comedian bill cosby he said that he'd never seen some like someone have an audience eat out of their hand so well uh-huh for an hour yeah for an hour what's interesting about richard prior seems to like even like did you read that scott saw a book no i'll give it to you oh you want it. Oh, thank you. I would love to. I got it. I already read it.

But it's about that time. It's only about up to like 73 or 74. It's right up to when he started making the bad movies, like after his arc. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. And that's where it stops. So it's through Oakland, through Berkeley,

through his transition. It's beautiful. It's good, and it's where it stops so it's it's it's through oakland through berkeley through you know his transition like it's it's good and it's journalistic he talked to you know family members that were willing to talk like he did his fucking homework oh that's amazing and it's it's an it's a sweet piece of uh of it's a portal into that period of prior because we all make assumptions what the fuck do we know yes so like you know when he was in oakland you know he was like he had thrown away being a cosby clone and he wantedby clone, and he wanted to be an artist. He wanted to be an artist. But he was doing weird shit, like poetry and theater stuff. He was really in his 60s.

He's going out there. But even in that documentary recently where he was taping that special, one of the specials, and he did a whole taping, and he said, I didn't do it. I didn't hit it. Oh, yeah. It's not. Oh, yeah. Myth i mean bombed right first night of his welcome back live on the sunset strip at the palladium right that's it that's what i'm talking about stevie wonders in the audience right that's what i'm talking about and he's just and it just

it just wasn't as nice but because he lives because he put so much in dude like you know like like you know there's very few comics and maybe you're one of them and you know is that Just wasn't as nice. Because he puts so much in, dude. There's very few comics, and maybe you're one of them, is that every performance is sort of a life or death thing. You're not going up there protected by an act. No. You're going out there on the fucking ice. You got to fly.

Right? You got to fly. Yeah. And I have to feel connected to what I'm saying. Or it's just not. The worst. It's The worst. It's the worst. It's like you're a zombie.

Yeah. If you're not. Yeah. Well, I mean, I should have, I would just be in accounting. Yeah. If I wanted to just repeat. Right. You know what I mean? If you don't feel the juice of connection.

If you don't feel the, yeah. With yourself and the audience. Yeah. So what else did Cosby say? I mean. He must have been teaching you a lesson. He had to school you a little bit. You know, it was, he was, I told him about the idea for the show.

He thought that was cool. We talked about comedy. We talked about, I mean, he said he's actually not anti. He kind of said what we were saying about he just doesn't like shock. He doesn't like curse words as a crutch as opposed to. Oh, a crutch, right. Yeah, as opposed to. He's like, when you're doingutch as opposed to, yeah, as opposed to, you know, he's like, because when you're doing the clubs, you know, late night,

you know, sometimes, you know, it's easier to just throw in these words. And if it's, he's saying as a crutch, he doesn't like it. Yeah. Which is this, right? Right. But it was interesting because Cosby defined that modern black comic thing, you know,

that wasn't political. That was family oriented. That was clean storytelling. But, you know, provocative in his own way in his own way i actually just talked about that with someone recently about how when talking about family there there it was kind of provocative when you think about the way he spoke about his children the way he spoke about it was kind of a raw sure and then noah bit is is relative is kind of a raw, a more raw way of discussing it. And the Noah bit is kind of provocative in biblical interpretation. Yes, and for the times and in context. But a little harmless.

But a little harmless. Because at that time, I mean, you do have Dick Gregory. You got Godfrey Cambridge. You got people that are pushing in a different direction. But the point I was making is at that time even in in the late 60s early 70s in in hollywood you know you had you had the cosby camp but then you had red fox who had his own fucking nightclub yes like down on like la siena girls i want to i'll you do you know where it was because i was i'll actually trying to google this recently because prior recorded an album there and

i was like where is the club i was i want to know where the club what's the building i'm gonna stand in the building i want to go stand in the building so now like given that you had this conversation like he didn't give you any warnings like he didn't say uh you know um you know be careful of this or that he didn't give you any did he give you any wisdom that you were like oh yeah okay i'll look out for that shit it wasn't it wasn't the kind that we've read about like the one that's just very you know the condescending it wasn't in any sense it was it was almost dare i say in a very respectful way almost just like a meeting and almost on this hey you gotta what do you want to do with your show what do you want to do like yes he asked as many questions were you nervous

uh or it was just uh like it was interesting it was i was excited i was genuinely excited because he really once again i mean it's you always have to give the disclaimer now but controversy aside just as a performer just as a television star well that's a weird thing just as a businessman you know yeah it's over for him though now oh man how how are you how do you position him in your brain now? I mean, are you able to keep it separate? Because I know you do bits on it. I grew up in an environment,

and this isn't to speak to the hood versus whatever, but I know that my personal experience, I grew up in an environment where you had to extract, you had to separate the two. Just in humanity, in people? In people. Like an example. My best friend sold drugs.

He's a liar. Some of my brother's closest friends have murdered people. Back in the day. Back in the day. We're the grown-ups now the justice system is taking care of what it needed to take care of yeah yeah whatever you know and you know and some people you know i'm fairly sorry whatever anyway uh but you separate from people have done bad things basically what i'm saying right and this is not the popular opinion but um you you learn to separate to have removed you it's not that you need to associate all the time like some people

you don't need to so but just on a purely viewing someone right you you learn to separate the two right and you don't like because sometimes it's for survival so when you when you grow up and you don't and it's not a lot of money right like there may be a guy who's a piece of shit right but he offers something valuable to the group right you know what i mean like it may be like you know this guy is a piece of shit but girls like him right and he gets girls right so okay he can hang out he can hang out or this guy's a piece of shit but he has a car yeah right it's like oh he's an asshole it's a stolen car it's a stolen car and we are all in danger right now but we're gonna get he has a car you know what i mean like and so even if it's just a thing that you offer like when you think about like like you know it's like it's like a village yeah right like

you think every caveman was just a great guy the hunters and they no no that guy's an asshole but he'll kill a lion who else knows how to kill lions exactly he knows how to kill lions the rest of us don't know how to do that we're gonna have to put up with sure he fucked my wife right yeah yeah i think that's a line though but it's a lion man it's a lie you gotta think about lions yeah yeah yeah but you know but but it's that thing of separating not Not only that. What about justice? I mean, here's the thing. My mom always has this saying.

She says, I don't have a heaven or hell to put you in. Yeah. And she says that, you know, a lot. And here's the thing. What does that mean? It means this. It means, once again, it doesn't mean you associate yourself. You know what I mean?

But it means that. I'm not God. I'm not God. And I'm not. And where judgment. Like, I'm't mean you associate yourself. You know what I mean? But it means that- I'm not God. I'm not God. And I'm not, and where judgment, like I'm not a judge and jury. And if he, like doing anything wrong, yeah, that's disgusting. Yeah. You feel like you shouldn't have to say it, but just so it's clear. Yeah.

Because I'll get a tweet. You're not a fan of, what you're saying is you're not a fan of Bill Cosby, the rapist. I'm not a fan of any rapist. I'm not a fan of any horrible, like, that's a disgusting act. Yeah. It really is. It's a disgusting, disgusting act. I mean, as it's up there with murder, it ruins lives.

And you know what I mean? Like, and just, you know, knowing women who've gone through that. Right. I mean, it's horrible. Right. It's absolutely horrible. Right. It's, I mean, it's horrible. Right. It's absolutely horrible. Right. You know what I mean?

So it's like, in no way am I trying to say, you know. He gets a pass. He gets a, but he's so great. Right. You know, but it is a thing where it's like, this is horrible. This is disgusting. But where the level of judgment where I can't, you can't, and no one should, I think, like, torment themselves with being a judge.

Because, like, being a judge takes a lot of weight and there's a lot of pressure. And it's a lot of torment if you don't, as my mom would say, have a heaven or hell to put anyone in. Or a cell to put anyone in or whatever. Now, if you take that up as your cause, that's your right. That is absolutely your right. If you want to push toward that justice. And we all have a bit of a responsibility for that. But it's just like, you know, it's one of those things where it's like you can't torment yourself on a personal level with just like, ah, buddy.

Because Bill Cosby himself is still a great special. Yeah, nothing you can do about that. There's nothing you can do about that. But Bill Cosby, but here's the fucking difference is that the fact that he hasn't, you know, publicly copped to anything. Yeah. Is that there's obviously a pathology. He's got problem. But Richard Pryor would have talked about it.

Well, you know, like I doubt he would have done it. I mean, Richard Pryor talking about shooting his wife's car out and just all these things. Yeah. He exposed his soul. I mean, you, I mean, that's the beauty of it. Yeah. So then it becomes a question. It's like this man, Cosby's soul is in trouble.

Mm hmm. Which what do you have anything to do with? Nothing. You know what I mean? Yeah. You know, like I don't have anything to do with anyone. So, you know, I have nothing to do with it. Yeah.

But, you know, but you can have opinions and you can. Yeah. And once again, and and hopefully we all have the same opinion. Sure. On the matter. Yeah. I hope we all have the same opinion on the the issue itself just like uh who else how did your relationship with spike lee unfold uh because he directed the special directed the special i wanted someone that uh could capture like a documentary type feeling you reached out to him yes i called him well i mean the hollywood version the industry version rather of you know told my guy called a guy but then i mean we it became really direct pretty immediately what do you think of him as a man as a man yeah uh spike

is he's he's i really respect i mean he's convicted like he's convicted and like what he believes in he believes in and we had you know i, I think it was right to share. Like, we had discussions about things. Like what? Like, I mean, in the bit, he was very adamant about me not, I opened talking about how, like, with the Trayvon Martin thing and how, like, these horrible things happen. But you don't really care. Right? And we had a disagreement and

what the perspective of that was. I had to explain to him what the perspective was because he took it as, you know, like, but people do care. But I'm like, but do that, you know, and to me, I say it as a challenge and as a very real, harsh, personal realization of, oh, man, I'm allowing life to go on. And I'm not saying you should i'm just saying it's it's a reality of a lot of times these tragedies happen it's about social responsibility social responsibility and that's what the bit's about and we had great conversations about it just talking about like yeah this is what i meant by that this is why i said it this but he was honest and he was open with it and you know like and and he was very much so like yeah there are a few things so so his his angle was is it not irresponsible for you to to

say that nobody cares yeah to say that nobody cares and i said i think it's irresponsible of me not to say that right because because it's like no and and because most people it's not my life it's not my life yeah that's most people right and and again, going back to even what we were just talking about, at some point you do have to take some type of social responsibility, and there are things that we can change and we need to actively change. That's why I said it, because it's this challenge. And if it made you feel like, well, I do care. The hope and the intention was that people, if you thought I was wrong about it,

that it would motivate well what did you what was the the community of your childhood uh lower class you know uh you know people doing things they needed to survive factory type jobs that type of thing but but working class working class was not a like a ghetto situation no where's the line i don't know i mean were people selling drugs were people yeah like that was his name his name if if i didn't grow up in the if it wasn't the ghetto then i mean someone needs to change the wallpaper. Because it's looking a lot... You know what I mean?

Like, it's like... So, who am I? Here's the thing. I don't want to label it. Right. You know, like, because I would love for it not to have been. Like, were you in danger many times? Yeah.

So, hey. Yeah. I don't know. Who knows? You know what I mean? Like, were there drive-bys, likeys across the street from my house, directly across. Yeah. Okay.

So, I mean, here's the thing. To some people, that sounds like a vacation spot, and that's not the ghetto. To me, not so much. It's like you grew up with a real life. Once again, a real life, all right. But with that said, I also't want want to make it sound like it was just the worst and there are worse but it's interesting getting back to spike's point is that you know if you grow up you know in in that type of community where it's not unusual for that

kind of shit to happen yeah you know like i guess maybe what he was trying to address and i don't know was that um you know we can't you know speaking i would say as him is that you know black people can't disassociate yeah is that so so here's the thing yeah uh there as a black person as black comic yeah uh there there are so many rules right and there's a difference between responses there are there are because unspoken unspoken like really like like what it's saying that i'm as a black comic especially i'm not supposed to say that you know what i mean like that's not a thing that i'm supposed is that where spike was coming from yeah right it's like you're not supposed to say this right and and and part of like listen not to sound like well this is my but but i do want to contribute to not only comedy not only the you know like the the artist experience yeah but you want to contribute and push every experience

further so part of my job is to to say those things that are true that I'm not supposed to say. To break that rule is part of my responsibility because it's inhibiting. It's inhibiting the art. It's inhibiting the consciousness to not say these things. You know what I mean? So I have to have to right but it's also interesting that your trajectory was not the standard black comic trajectory you got you didn't come out of black clubs no yeah no so you were able to have this you know this thought-provoking exchange with a mixed audience if not white leaning audience yeah most of the time yeah yeah and you when you're at the store, you're at the improv,

you're at the, you know, it's not all black audiences. And by the way, I mean, I love when it's, whenever I'm in front of a black audience, there is a certain amount of, like, comfort and, like, excitement of just like, oh, great. Yeah, yeah. Now I can really do it. Yeah, we can really go for it.

Because the whole thing, I really believe my purpose is to contribute to expanding consciousness within especially within art. You know, you try and let it go, let it permeate and go beyond that. But but it's to expand consciousness and that and everything that I do is rooted in that everything in the saying these things that you're not supposed to say, but are honest. It's even the way we shot and did the special. All of that is was to expand. When did this this idea, this vision of yours take hold? I mean, like it wasn't at the shoot store. So when did you start to acknowledge the idea of art? It's a thing that i've always respected right the things that always gravitate toward are the things that mean something like that that

kind of mean something and and help expand consciousness right like so even before wanting to do like what even at the shoe store the reason i always watch the daily shows because john stewart i think genuinely does a service to society right because. Because it is the source of news for people. Cutting through hypocrisy. Cutting through hypocrisy. And getting to the truth. Yes. And informing people.

Yeah. Because it is a thing where, you know, if you try and read about, you know, what's happening in politics through the Associated Press, it's not as clear as Jon Stewart explaining it to you at 11 o'clock. Or Rachel Maddow. Yeah, yeah. Jon Stewart, it's clear and it's humorous. Right. And it's like, that's what art is to me.

It is medicine and applesauce because it's fun, but it really is saying things. It makes people see things differently. So, like, you want to blow minds. Like, you know, people walk through life every day. And all of a sudden you make them think of things like you just tweak the knob a little. And they're like, I never thought about that. Yes. I'm responsible.

The expansion of consciousness. Okay. You know what I mean? And those are the things that I've always gravitated toward. You know, it's always a thing. Because, once again, what looks good in a time capsule right you know what what deserves to be in a time capsule you know like and that's that's always been where my my head is even in the in what i would watch and how i would spend my time and just

in self-education it's always like let's read the guys that lasted let's read the guys that mattered let's like who uh uh let's start at like frank o'hara right frank o'hara is this poet who from the new new york school of poetry uh who uh just in his the way he structured poems the way he did things yeah it mattered it influenced people i think he was the poet laureate for a while wasn't he yeah he it like just like my favorite poem is uh uh is my heart by franco here you know i'm not gonna cry all the time i'm gonna laugh all the time you know like these and so i like i wanted to read all of this like anything that i could anything i can get my hands on

franco hair on yeah as much as i could i'm just at barnes and noble sure that was like you know sitting there it's the same thing with like art i went into the whitney uh a new one yeah the new one nice right it's really really nice that was a great exhibit that one they got up was their collection through the years right just yeah yeah yeah yeah i just saw it it's fantastic amazing it's fantastic goes through the protests through the periods yeah yeah all the different types of art yes and then like the 60s and the 70s it's amazing yeah it's amazing yeah so i brought that up to say like the same thing with poetry or anything. It's always dangerous territory because then I don't want to go

to, you know the classic, I don't know art, but I know what I like. All I know is my interpretation. No, but that's all you need to know. That comes back to the same thing of what you do on stage is if you're honest. The thing is, there's always going to be people with an education

or intellectuals that are going to question your reaction to it because they're going to put it into a different context. But the pure reaction of somebody who's just sort of like, I want to feed my head. Yeah. And you have that thing hit you like that. Yeah. That's honest.

Yeah, that's honest. And then if you want to chase it down the pipe and learn more shit about where it came from or who that guy was, that's another expedition. That's a whole other thing, yes. And you can choose to go down that route or not. Sure, and ruin it for yourself. Yeah, and ruin it for yourself. And just, that's a whole, you got to go to college again.

That's a whole lifestyle change. But just reading, just reading, reading, educating, just trying to educate yourself. Feed your head. Feeding your head. Because those things, especially if you're not, and most people aren't educated in poetry or contextualizing O'Hara and where he came from poetically, that if you just deal with the meat of his expression or the painting,

like sometimes when paintings are supposed to be provocative in the same way you do comedy comedy it's nice to know the movement yeah these motherfuckers were trying to turn it upside down if you go if you go to a caravaggio exhibit yeah right yeah if you if you see it you need to know the context of the movement you need to know that it helps a lot of the art is in the shadows sure oh yeah yeah i went to what i could be to Kevin Christie. We went to LACMA, and he just basically...

Oh, he schooled you? He schooled me. Yeah. And it was like, oh, and you learn the context. He schooled me on the context of art. And so it's like, with comedy, with all of it,

I'm interested in where I stand in art. Sure. You know what i mean like like beyond comedy yeah you know like it's it's i mean just look at what this show is right you have the president of the united states yeah yeah this isn't just you know what i mean this isn't just like you know like and my favorite thing reading and when the president was there is just like they have to deal with you now yeah you know what i mean like it's like it's like and just like writing about like just a thing first of all some comedians podcast it hasn't been you know in the context of especially comedy yeah it hasn't been a little thing since it started right yeah right but then and then and then you

just watch it grow and you watch it grow and you watch it grow. And they have to deal with you. And now even this show itself is in the context of art, is in the context of journalism, in the context of documenting things. So it's like this show exists in that context now. And I want my stand-up, I want my whatever to exist in art. Right. You know what I mean? Sure, man. And so you need to read read about artists you need to

explore art yeah explore sure man and the art of everything sure man you know and not just poets and painters there's a art i would argue there's an art to being a reality star you know what i mean like i'm not sure they're aware of that yeah i don't think i don't but here's the i've actually got an argument you're gonna have to contextualize that. Contextualizing Kim Kardashian to even the way Paris Hilton did it. Sure. Fewer mistakes. Yeah. Smarter about it.

Capitalizing off every nook and cranny of it. But, okay, I understand what you're saying, but I think there's a skill set and craft and also putting ambition together with how to get your hustle on to make a few bucks. There is. But you're talking about expanding consciousness. I'm talking about. I don't know if. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, but I'm just saying.

Is that the. But that is a skill. That is a skill. Here's the thing. Rather we like to admit it or not, Kim Kardashian is going to be remembered. Okay, but that's different. Explored. But hold on.

The phenomenon is. The phenomenon is going to be explored, which then, I mean, to a certain degree, I don't even like to say, but it influences. Sure. You know what I mean? It influences. And so being influential is a part of art.

That's a big part of it. But still, for what I'm hearing- It is a skill set. I know what you're saying. No, no, no. I'm not arguing. I'm just saying that there is something about being remembered and historical. You can do that by not expanding any consciousness at all.

And actually, if you do, it might be in the wrong direction. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then there's the idea of art to expand consciousness yeah and i think what you're saying is like you'd like to expand consciousness but you'd like to be well known for it yes yes thank you very much so like so i just want to make sure i separate you from kim kardashian out of respect for you i really appreciate that i really appreciate that yeah but really appreciate that. Yeah. But when I'm saying the art of anything is just really, within anything in context, just getting the most out of it. No, no.

I get it. You know what I mean? I get that. That for anybody to rise out of whatever their life is and have an impact at all. At all. And a lasting one requires requires some set of of skills yes of some kind you know whether they're good or bad or whatever i get that yeah and and and and for you to make the impact that you want to make you know you're still gonna have to trust

yourself and and and the machines that are in place because it becomes that thing where you make a choice not to do a four and a half minute set because you don't represent yourself if all of a sudden you know you get big and they're like well we need that four four and a half minute set and you're like i think i can do it now yeah oh you'll see a lot of that no you'll see a lot of that cut to me just in a suit it's like they yeah, it's like, it's a lot of money. It's a concession. It's a Faustian deal. Hey,

look, you know, the NBC show, we picked it up, but it's like, it's not doing great. We need you to go on this reality show. To do a little,

it's like you maintain your integrity as an artist and you try and do things that make sense. Listen, the reason I wanted to work with NBC is because it's such a M.E.C. is because it's such a machine. It's such a huge machine, but I really think you can get something good and interesting through it.

A lot of people have said that. Yeah, a lot of people have said that. A lot of people, you know, they're no longer in the business. I know, I know, I know, right? As I prepare for battle, I put it all on, suiting up, just like,

all right, you guys, it's just like, people watch Suiting up, just like, all right, you guys. People watch, and they're just like, well, you talked about art a lot. Yeah. Let's see what the fuck this is. You're sitting there talking your mouth out. You're shooting your mouth off to suits about Caravaggio. About Caravaggio.

What do we got here with this kid? They're like, we're trying to sell Charmin. That's it. Yeah, which is the battle. But when you got here, like, I hadn't, like, it was like there was a lot of my peers who I hadn't seen you yet, you know, because I don't know, like, maybe you've gone later than me or I wasn't going out to the clubs as much.

But a lot of my guys, like, you know, like Kevin and Al Magical and Brennan, you know, all these guys are like, this dude, this dude's a miracle. I don't know where he came out of the clouds. And I'm like, who the fuck is this kid? I've never seen anything like it. I'm like, I've been doing comedy 25 years. I've never seen anything like this guy. And then I'm like, where is he?

And like, Neil's like, he's on my couch. I'm like, what? Yeah, that's pretty accurate. The second coming's on your couch? I know, I know, man. Yeah, yeah. What the hell happened how did that so you get to la and we're all and when did you what was the first set where'd you do it uh first set was

at the comedy store first time ever on sunday uh in your life ever in my life okay i'd start so how long you been doing it now it's started 2008, almost seven years. Okay. I would tell people, I would just lie. Right. People would say, how long you been doing stand-up? And I've been a couple years from my first move. Because I didn't want the crutch. So you created a mythology for yourself. You're like, yeah, I've done a couple years.

A couple years. Just very vague about it. But then you're like, where'd you from? Where'd you start? Yeah, North Carolina. Just kind of felt like I never did it before in my life. A couple years. Just very vague about it. But then you go, where'd you from? Where'd you start? Yeah, North Carolina. Just kind of felt like I never did it before in my life. That's why you didn't talk to people. Get in and out.

Get in and out. They're on to you. Yeah, yeah. But it's because I didn't want that, like, not bad for a first. I judged it honestly as a set. Right. Just as a set. Right.

Because it may be better than, know what i mean how'd you prepare for that first set uh just pace the same way i prepared for this one but you had some ideas you didn't a couple ideas a couple thoughts go up first at the open mic no audience members comics in the back the sun is shining through yeah through that window it's not an easy room either not an easy room that's why I wanted to do a special there because it's just, it's first place ever. Hit or miss, dude.

Hit or miss. Easily. Oh yeah. Easily. They're not going to indulge too much bullshit. It's the, it really is, and I know comics say it,

but it really is one of the hardest, like by hard meaning it's, it is something you have to figure out every night. It keeps you on your toes. Well, you got like the first trick of that original room is like, how the fuck am I going to get comfortable in here yes and and like because

it'll that place will pull it'll bring your fear right to the surface yeah so you have to battle your fear for however long it's going to take for you to be like i own this stage now there is a table at your feet oh i know yeah you know what i mean like there's a table and now the lights are right you can't see past much past that table. And now that food is served there, people are eating nachos. Garbage. Yeah. They're eating garbage. Like, at your feet.

You know what I mean? Like, that's a, you know, it's a lot to try. And it's just like, there's a rawness there. Like, you just feel like that room is like, there's a couple of rooms that are like, despite the reputation, are hard as fuck. The Comedy Cellar is another one. Hard as fuck. Love it.

Yeah. Love it. Because once you, but once you pop that place, you're like, fuck, one. Hard as fuck. Love it. Yeah. Love it. Because once you, but once you pop that place, you're like, fuck, I'm not afraid of anything. Yes.

Yeah. Oh, and then, and then the Comedy Cellar momentum is great. Some of my favorite moments. Well, you gotta hit it.

Some of my favorite moments in standup is also, also like going, it's like after Che and Louie. Yeah. You know, at the Cellar, and then you're up,

you know, and once again, where do you fit in this space? You know what I mean? Well, you better make them know you really quit. You better hit right out of the gate. You don't have a fucking chance. That first one goes in the toilet. Yeah, yeah.

It's like, ah. It's over. You know what I mean? The first one doesn't go. That's what I love. That's what I loved about following Dane when you're at the factory. Right. All these things because it's like you bet like you're just starting out.

You're just this unknown person. Right. And nobody's there to see you, but you have the heat or whatever. So you're on these shows. Right. And you got to know that the biggest trick is like, you know, you learn it like once or twice where you're like, I'm going to follow that dude. He's got that energy.

I'm just going to go full on. And then it's like, that didn't work. No. So then eventually you're just like, I'm going to suck it right down to me truth wait truth wait what you're good at that bill burr's good at that you know the like well you know it's like you know i might have to eat it for six maybe maybe yeah you know what i mean but it's like this has to be me it's like every home you know i walk into you gotta redecorate it man you gotta adjust that's right you gotta do it quick you gotta do it quick just by standing there just

by standing there just by your energy just unspoken yeah you have to do it that is that's that that is that crucial moment where it's like if you let fear win in that moment it can be a long oh yeah long 15 minutes the longest 15 minutes of your life you're just sitting there you're waiting for it's a green light over to your left please you just waited how much how long have i been here yeah you know and of course those are the nights when the next guy's not there yet you gotta now i gotta do 20 i've been up here a while i gotta do 21 and you know what's amazing about that feeling it can always happen it can always happen always have tuesday or saturday it could always happen especially in the or you're like that's just that's all i'm getting i think again yeah i'm gonna go higher than that and there's the place is full yes i can't get more it's back it's back

that's what i that's what i love about the or the or could be full and dead oh yeah yeah it's crazy usually what is that under most circumstances just by the nature of the room being people yeah a room full of people any other place you're gonna get something the or can be packed to the brim nothing yeah the worst they're just sitting there you're like what is the fucking dark like i believe the building on certain nights has a mood to it. Yes. Hey. Yes.

Yeah, I know. Absolutely. The OR shifts with the moon. Yeah, man. Shifts with something. It shifts with something. But it keeps you on your toes. And you've got to adjust that energy.

So I'm there. I'm up first. Open mic. Do it. Love it. Did it go with? No, it goes home. But you got the bug.

You're like, this is where I live. I'm excited to share thoughts. Right. You know what I mean? I'm excited to share thoughts. I'm excited to say, hey, this is how I feel about this thing. Yeah, yeah. You know?

Hey, do you not feel that way? Great, because I want to talk about it. You know, like, I'm excited. And when did people start noticing you? Because it was the store guys, right? Like Neil and Al. Oh, man, Neil and Al and Brett. You know, like genuinely amazing.

Argus. Yeah. You know what I mean? And Bill. I mean, Bert, you know, was very, I mean, he said very, he gave some very nice compliments to me early on in my career. And, you know, it was just do those cosigns in front of you know at the time tommy at the comedy store just like put this kid up

you know like and so i mean i'm you know very very blessed just to have like people yeah it's pretty astounding yeah because like you know i'm a cynical fuck so like you know when everybody starts you know talking about this kid karm, I'm like, how could it? I've seen this happen before. It was, it's Patrice. Yeah. You know, and this is- Wait, you got to talk to Patrice? I got to talk to Patrice.

That must've been something. One of the most amazing, one of the most amazing, it really was, it was one of those things- It was one of those like, who the fuck you think you are? So he, Neil, I can't remember if it was Neil or Ian, or Ian Edwards that introduced me to Patrice on the patio outside the store. And he said- What was he doing out here? So, he was out of place.

He was out, yeah. He was here for a few days for some meetings and stuff. Holding up the patio? Yeah, just holding up the patio. Holding up court. Saying, like, who are these fucking people? Holding up court. There's a line.

You know, I'm with a friend of his. friend I think it was Neil or it may have been Ian but either way they say hey have you met Gerard and the first thing he says oh yeah I heard of you you're supposed to be that next nigga supposed to be that next Chappelle nigga and that's what he said to me

and then he talked to me for 30 minutes I mean it's really a blessing. I had some great conversations with like that. He's like, you know, it's like, you know, there's like the beauty of Patrice was sort of like, you know, I feel good talking to him. It's going right into me, but I'm not sure it's right. But it's honest. Oh, yeah. He's not lying to you. That's right.

But it was telling his truth. It was honestly. And this is the only conversation I've ever had with him. 30 minutes, and I remember it because it's the first time I ever missed a show. Couldn't stop talking. I was on my way to a spot, and here's the thing. I'm not even going to pull that whole, I just knew. Because I didn't know.

I just, for whatever reason, couldn't walk away. Couldn't even do the polite, like, I got to run. And I'm sure he would have understood. I stood there, and I just missed my spot. Obviously, given the context of this was pretty close to when he went to the hospital. This was like months before. So, obviously, you're like, oh, well, thank God that I did. But very kind of a vulnerable conversation.

He was a weird sort of – it was exciting to be around that guy. Yeah. And there's not a lot of guys like that. Yeah, he was so, he talked about mistakes that he made. He talked about, once again, same thing with, it wasn't that like, let me tell you something. Right. It was like, this is my experience. Right.

It was very much so they, you know know it was met with this level of like respect it was it's never i you know i've been really blessed like for whatever reason people just approach with this level of like honest like respect and like this is what i went through and i really appreciate that i think there's a brotherhood to comics you know and i think that comics especially guys in my generation and sometimes older but they get a little detached but guys who are still in the in the you know at the clubs and stuff yeah that when they see something or they feel talent or they feel like you're one of us that they're they're decent fucking dudes that you know they're sort of like you know what can

i do to help this guy yeah because he's good for us and he's great at what he does and he makes it you know he you know we believe in comedy. Yeah, I mean, down to, Neil Brennan gave me shoes. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, Al Madrigal gave me clothes and some of my first paying gigs. Brett Ernst would just slide me cash to eat. Oh, really?

You know what I mean? Yeah, so you came out here, you didn't do the Craigslist. You didn't have a place to live. I found a, I lived on a love seat for a month, then I moved into a studio apartment with four people. We shared small, I mean, just the most uncomfortable. Lived on couches, that type of thing. I didn't have a day job here.

You weren't going to do it. It really is by the grace of God. But I only thought, I focused on comedy. I focused on just like- You didn't give a fuck about the day job no day job no no day what's the point no why that's not what i want to do right yeah and here's the thing and i mean once it's a blessing to be able to do it and i and people were very like you know i mean i think about that a lot man just like you know like neil brett and all

these guys that just believe in you yeah you know like early on like you know and it's just uh i mean it's so beautiful, man. I've never seen anything like it, really. No. Like, just like, no, it was a beautiful thing, you know, and to hear you tell it was that they knew your talent, they knew your commitment. Dove Davidoff and Brian Callen bought me a car.

Yeah. You know what I'm saying? I mean, just like genuine belief. You better not let us down. I was man if i if i if i fuck this up you don't know me like it was like all right it's like you better focus on comedy you know what i mean like because it's just like you know even if not for yourself for for them right you know like these beautiful people just really believe in you and look out yeah yeah, it's a sweet story, man. Yeah, it's amazing.

And it worked out. Oh, man. You got a place to live now? I'm doing all right. You can buy your own pants? Doing okay. I got a couple pair now. What is the NBC show?

When's it happening? Doing how many? We're doing five more. We did a pilot and then five more episodes. Six total. Six total. You're going to run the pilot. We're going to run the pilot.

They love the pilot. Who knows how they run the pilot. They love the pilot. Who knows how they feel about the pilot? NBC. NBC, yeah. Listen, you assume love. I don't think love has anything to do with any of it. So you haven't had to fight any fights yet? Oh, it's always a fight.

With the suits too? On the script level? Oh, yeah. Absolutely. It's always a fight. Here's the thing. I don't even want to make it sound like it's only contention because i mean they're like like you said with the the letterman like there are some great notes there are some oh yeah this makes the story better like and and you can't

just be like they don't know anything people that really believe in the idea and like really so i don't want to make it seem like us versus just that but it is you're trying to change perspective consciousness or way something's perceived what something can can be, what you can say, what you can't say. You know, and battling that it's like to change habits is the hardest thing. What's the world? I live with my girlfriend. It's based on my family. Because what's interesting about my relationship with the family is it is people that believe really strongly in things.

A lot of arguments growing up over everything. Between you and your mom and dad and your brother. Between all of us. Everyone's still together. Your parents still together. Over any given thing. Yep, parents still together. Your dad's still driving?

Still driving. What's your mom do? She's now early retirement, was a secretary at a children's hospital for 31 years. And I'm sure she won't mind me sharing. So she's just let go from her job. 31 years, loyal service, same children's hospital, just let go, right? Cutbacks or whatever pension though not even no not the amount of respect that she deserves

fuck you know what I mean like worst very much children's hospital just not the amount of respect she deserves just gone I mean you know it's a woman who sits with who sat with children who tried to commit suicide and would talk and pray with you know to me like like and would talk and pray with them you know what i mean like like and just 31 years like ah gone right how's she handling it fine my mom's one of the strongest people i've ever met so just so everyone's got strong opinions in the show opinion strong opinions in the show strong opinions some unpopular opinions just trying to see both sides of an argument i'm crazy crazy inspired by Norman Lear.

Ben? I haven't. I saw him speak twice, actually, once at Bat Robot. They were nice enough to invite me to just this very private thing to see Norman Lear speak. And then I saw him speak to Rosenthal, to Phil Rosenthal, just this conversation about his book and about you know creating yeah i talked to him in here yeah yeah so you so you're like you should meet him why don't you meet him i would love to i i would love to he'd love to come see you oh that'd be great i

wonder man it's like he likes to go out and shit he's i mean just i mean i by the way i had a great conversation with rob reiner about you just like even in making this like between the conversation with cosby and i've talked with reiner i saw lear speak i called phil rosenthal about things and we just so the model is all in the family in a way there's a model yeah it's all in the family because because it's just it's true you want to go the provocative juice yeah yeah yeah like honesty on television because you don't tune into a sitcom to see – if I want to see – you tune in for character and perspective. You don't tune in to see, you know, like, oh, that story's crazy because that's what Netflix is for and that's what, you know, these dramas are for. And even on NBC, they have dramas that do that. You tune in to see – you build a relationship.

Relationship. With the character. Exactly. Exactly. You tune in to see, you build a relationship. Relationship. With the character. Exactly.

And in building that relationship, the people that I want to build relationships with are people who have strong views and strong opinions and aren't just saying just sassy things every 15 seconds. You know, like it's- Just jokes. Just jokes. It's just like conversation, real things. Who's playing your dad? David Alan Greer.

Yeah. Yeah. He's fantastic, by the way. Sure, man. He's like the way he's like i mean an actor yeah you know what i mean like it's like he's an act yell job you're talking to tony award you know like who else is in it um loretta divine oh he's my mom nice also amazing actors amber stevens amber west rather excuse me uh who's who's fantastic and just fun. She plays my girlfriend. Laurel Howry plays my brother. And another comic, Tiffany Haddish, plays his ex-wife that he can't afford to leave. She's amazing.

It's really, and honestly, the chemistry is there. You know what I mean? A very real chemistry. How are you doing with the acting? You feeling it? I feel it. I like acting. You taking any lessons? Got a coach on hand?

I spoke with an acting coach once. She was really, really great. I have this relationship with all school where it's a very cautious relationship because it's why, and with all due respect to anyone who's done comedy classes, the reason I wouldn't, I'm not like an advocate of comedy classes. Because you don't want to create this box for yourself that you can't get out. Someone else's system. A system. You don't want, you want to create your own system.

That's right. Seinfeld very much so has his own system. It goes along with your own rhythm. It goes along with your own rhythm. But you need to find that for yourself. So same thing with acting. I remember reading this thing that Denzel Washington said he went to acting school for long enough. He described it as long enough.

He was like, I went for long enough. He got what he needed, and then you get out of there before you're following the same rhythm. Once again, you don't want to do what everybody else is doing. So you want to know yourself. Find your authentic self. And acting, same thing with stand-up yeah you figure it out you figure it out take some time watching your show you you yeah yeah it took a couple seasons for me to get comfortable with acting but you're mark maron on merit that's right you know what i mean like which

which is the same thing that every actor that we love does you know what i mean jack nicholson jack nicholson but that's but he like those guys you know they took classes now the weird thing about like uh about being a comic i'm just telling you this because i put this in my head it was one of the few moments where where where i i knew something that would have frightened me before yeah but i i i had no choice and and i had to accept it yes i'd known every motherfucker that in our in our trade that got sitcoms i know them yeah i know brett i know ray i know louis yeah i didn't know jerry but i saw it but like i said like all right every one of these guys it took at least a season for them to figure out yeah how to act like themselves yeah because

and then you're surrounded by real actors yes but we're we're us and we're and we just think we're gonna we'll just do it but like you watch the first season of any of those shows you're like it's a little little stiff figuring it out

right and I knew that though and like before I would have been like oh fuck man I gotta figure this out before I do it yeah so you

you were able to just gonna have to eat it figure it out you have to take the hit well thanks for the heads up no no you're gonna do the best're going to do the best you can. You're going to do the best you can. And then you're going to grow into it.

You grow into it. You might be a miracle. I hear you're a miracle. You might be fucking Olivier in the first week. God bless you. All right, I'll take it. Take it. Take it.

Well, look, best of luck. Thank you. And let's talk. You know, best of luck. Thank you. And let's talk. I want to talk again either at the pickup. Okay.

Or when it doesn't work out. You know what? That's a deal. Okay, buddy. That's a deal. Thanks, Gerard. This is amazing. Thank you.

Well, I think we covered it, man. That guy, he's like all lit up, that guy. Just beaming, beaming with youth and energy and creativity. Yeah, he charged me up. Let's make it a little less dirty. This is a new guitar. I want to do something meditative. If I can, if I can try to do that that would make me feel better

so I'm just going to do the three chord thing maybe I'll throw another one in there, I don't know © transcript Emily Beynon Fuck it. Boomer lives! It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead

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