WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 641 - Jake Kasdan / Fred Stoller

Episode Date: September 27, 2015

Writer/director Jake Kasdan inherited some good show business genes from his father. But he’s paved his own way, whether it was through his work on shows like Freaks and Geeks or by writing and directing his own feature films. Jake and Marc discuss if it all played out the way Jake had hoped. Plus, past guest Fred Stoller drops in to explain how things have changed since his last appearance on WTF. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

It's winter, and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs, mozzarella balls, and arancini balls? Yes, we deliver those. Moose? No. But moose head? Yes. Because that's alcohol, and we deliver that too.

Along with your favorite restaurant food, groceries, and other everyday essentials. Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing.

With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. What the fuck, buddies? What the fucksters? What the fucking ears? What the fuckaholics? What the fucktopians?

What's happening? I'm Mark Maron. This is my show, WTF the Podcast. As you can tell, I might have a little nasal issue. I don't like it. And it was my birthday yesterday. It's my fucking birthday, and I was sick on my birthday. But I wasn't immersed in a nightmare of drama and horror

like my 50th birth oh wait it's gonna happen oh god oh god that why can't that what a good feeling that is oh my god how great are sneezes when they happen when the build-up is just like it was you heard it just a little bit of build-up and then bam delivers the goods and you get that wonderful feeling how how fucking pathetic is this how pathetic is it a sober dude and i'm sitting sitting here celebrating the buzz of a fucking sneeze wow right look i know that some of you already know this but we got some uh well actually we have new news and and just a reiteration of some other news uh you already know that the wtf archives are now on howl premium you know that well guess what the howl app for android is officially here we got it

and to celebrate howl is giving you a chance to win a piece of my garage i'm going to take a little saw or a knife or something and cut off a piece and i'm going to uh take photos of me doing it and i'll sign the piece and we'll have an official certificate of authenticity that you have a piece of my garage. So if you're a premium subscriber and you haven't gotten this news yet, just go to wtf.howell.fm and enter your email address. Even if you're on a free trial, anyone who's subscribed can enter to win a piece of the garage.

If you use Howell on Android, iPhone, or on your desktop, if you want to become a new premium subscriber, go to howl.fm and use the promo code WTF at checkout. Howl Premium is the only way to access all the WTF archives, whether you are on a iPhone or an Android or using the web. And if you're already a WTF premium subscriber and haven't transferred your account to Howl yet, do it today your price and plan stay exactly the same check your email to see if the transfer instructions that Hal sent came and they're in your inbox or send an email to support at how.fm fucking piece of the garage where am I gonna find that I want to give you a real piece though a real piece of the fucking garage we have a kind of a a mixed bag of a show today i've got uh jake kasdan who's a film director also the executive

producer of the grinder that's a new comedy with rob lowe it's going to premiere on fox tomorrow night um his dad is lawrence kasdan writer of Star Wars and many other things. Body Heat, one of my favorite movies. And Lawrence Kasdan is sort of a mythic presence here in the show business. And Jake is his son, who directed a couple of movies in his own right. And I ran into him in New York once, and we talked for a bit. I'm like, you should be on the show. So here he is on the show.

Also, in a few minutes, a repeat guest for a bit. I'm like, you should go on the show. So here he is on the show. Also in a few minutes, a repeat guest for a quick chat, Fred Stoller, always engaging and entertaining to talk to Mr. Stoller. He'll be up soon. But what about life, man? I'm 52 years old.

I have a lot to be grateful for. Thank you for all the birthday greetings thank you for listening i am grateful i'm happy to provide this show for you i do i do need to figure out what i enjoy doing and i do need to learn how to relax and i do have a fantasy of disappearing but you know what the problem with disappearing is disappearing terrifying what if you really disappear what if you you know no one really What if you really disappear? What if no one really cares if you come back? That seems like parent stuff.

That seems like some issues. So Fred Stoller always makes me happy. Fred's book, Maybe We'll Have You Back, The Life of a Perennial TV Guest Star is available now wherever you get books. Fred also has a podcast, The Mild Adventures of Fred Stoller. You can go to fredstoller.net for everything Fred Stoller. And I love when he comes by.

This is me and Fred Stoller. It's hockey season, and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So, no, you can't get an ice rink on Uber Eats. But iced tea, ice cream, or just plain old ice? We'll be right back. Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category.

And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. it was this farmer's market table you know at paul mazerski right so after doing your podcast people start showing up and sitting down. Just because I mentioned.

So Fred Stoller is back in the garage talking. I don't know why I'm introducing like that. I never do that. I thought you were going to say, I thought you were saying, I don't know why he's here again. No. There's this table at the farmer's market. Paul Mazursky passed away. But you were saying, like, what do you do during the day?

Right. Like, what's your routine? Do you have one? And the only real one I had was there's this morning table of the late Paul Mazursky, George Siegel, all these people would sit there, Jack Riley, character actors. And I go, I sort of sit at the end, like the children's table, because I'm sort of with people but don't have to interact. Yeah, yeah. You know, and then people would just sit down.

They would just say, oh, there's the table. And I heard it on Marc Maron. People go, who are you? He goes, oh, I heard you on WTF. And yeah, George Siegel's a very private person. So they got mad at me. And then what'd they do? Did they have to move the table?

Well, no, it didn't happen. There was one guy, he brought a really pretty girl with his girlfriend so he kind of used that and he was she was flirting with everyone and they wedged themselves into the conversation well they were just sitting there and like staring at like it was like a show yes yes we're here for the show yes yes so sadly paul miserski died but he then the table revolved around his dialysis schedule. Yeah. Used to be every day.

Yeah. But then it was just Monday, Wednesdays, and Fridays. And then he died, so people like Quentin Tarantino, Sharon Stone wouldn't come. All these people would come to the table because of Paul Mazursky. And so then he died, and now it's just two days a week. And who's there now um who's there now a guy charlie bragg who's famous for being a painter to the stars he sells paintings um there's one person i won't mention his name he's an actor but he won't look me in the eye it's so i never was

one of these guys at the comedy cell who would sit there with Colin and argue about race relations. Fuck you. So there's one guy, I won't mention his name. He's a very aggressive comedian. You know him. And they like to argue. So you just sit there frightened? Yeah. Well, again, I don't like being isolated. So I sit at a table to the side. So it feels like I'm with people, but I'm not in the mix you know what i mean like the children's table so i'm not alone you know you're just a quiet guy yes i'm not committed so when did you write this maybe we'll have you back but well actually the thing was i had this in the making for like 10 years it's a memoir it's a memoir see i think um i don't

know if you're a sports guy not really not at Not at all, actually. It's all right. But I like following people. I used to love what's called garbage time. I'm not saying I'm a garbage time player. When I always was attracted to stories of people, excuse me, that what it's like going from show to show, the guy, like a foster kid. Yeah. Going from show to show, hoping one keeps me on. You know what I mean? Right. So I had this idea when I was doing a lot more guest spots, because, you know, I've been on Seinfeld, Raymond, what it's like walking on eggshells, which stars are assholes to you, lets you eat lunch with them.

Right. I thought that's interesting. So then many years ago, I wrote up a draft, and this is before PDFs. Right. So then I'd get a lead on a literary agent. Yeah. And I'd send them a, and I'd print it up, you know, I have to do double space. Yeah, yeah.

And go to Kinko's, And it cost me 40 bucks to send. And they'd go, they'd say things like, it's not gritty enough. Because, you know, they want 30 days in rehab. You know, I masturbate on kids in the street. And mine's just a guy who walks around the grove. And sits at the end of a table and doesn't talk. Yeah. Well, I'm really selling the book.

But some of them, some of them, one of them was interested, but he said he wanted a happier ending because I didn't have that. Oh, now I'm a regular on, you know, Parks and Recreation. Now I talk at the table. Yes, and one of them actually said,

we wished it was more sex and then a joke. It's me too, you know, because it's not, you know. So then I sat in my computer because I kind of gave up, you know. I gave up. I said, maybe one day I'll really be famous and I'll have memoirs. But then, you know, with PDFs, I was able to send it around without costing 60 bucks.

And people said, this is kind of interesting. I said, yeah, I'm not so much the perennial guest star guy anymore you know it says these are still good shows so someone had to lead something called kindle singles have you heard of it well besides me no okay it's really really it got big because it's these on amazon these books right you just put them right on the kindle and you can self publish no no but i was lucky because the editor, where it's on Amazon's main page, so anyone could do it, but this is,

hey, these are the ones Amazon likes. Oh, right. So it was called My Seinfeld Year. I just siphoned off the chapter about what it was like writing on Seinfeld for a season. So that was from the book that you had been working on?

Yes. I sent the guy the book. He goes, this is funny. It's sad. It's good. But how could this be a single? Then I thought, oh, the Seinfeld chapter stands alone. Right.

What it was like trying to maneuver with Jerry and Larry. And they did a nice cover. And it did really well. So someone helped me get a literary agent. And then I buffed it up. And then I got all the same rejections like who cares about a guy who's you don't know you sort of know his face I was getting these emails that are like really putting me down like we think the Seinfeld is all he's got one of them said I'm glad Fred

still had his moment in the sun but we don't see this as a book and actually because you're a podcast I got a marketplace. Oh, yeah? And it did well. So then it was funny. As I was getting rejections, I was buffing it up. All right. So then I forgot.

I had a one-night stand with Kathy Griffin. So I put that in. That's the sexual stuff she wanted to punch me. That's the big seller. That's the big pitch. I found one. I found a celebrity. A sad fucking sexual experience.

Yes, exactly. A very sad one. And so then I got some publisher and- Did you thank Kathy? I should have. Yeah, I'm thanking her now. Remember that horrible night? Well, the funny thing is, is that she,

you know, I don't know if I want to go, this lunatic sued me and stuff, but all the people I was afraid of could care less. Like, she went on Howard Stern, and somehow Stern heard about this, said, this guy, who's this schmuck, you know, he's saying

you slept with him, and you wanted to punch him in the face after sex. And aren't you mad? She goes, no, I love it. If I see Freddie Stoller, I'll give him a hug. So, and then at Norm MacDonald, there was a chapter called Norm Stole My Jacket. Right.

And Norm asked me to be on his podcast. I said, Norm, I got to come clean. I said, you were a bully. He goes, I don't give a shit. So no one cares. But the people who I didn't give a shit. So no one cares. But the people who I didn't think would, would. And I did things like I had to do, you know, permissions. So the cover had logos of shows. I paid someone to make them a little bit off so I wouldn't get sued.

So this came out as a real book. That's funny. When people, there's one guy ronnie shell when you mention it at the morning table he used to be on gomer pile yeah and this table they love when people are suffering because jeff garland comes to the table yeah and and they don't lie i shouldn't say they don't like that he's got another show so they go oh i heard it's not going to do good in the midwest they just love They just love the schadenfreude of show business. They love when people fail that it's nothing to do with them. I heard the new Fantastic Four.

That's not going to do good. I see that in show business all the time. It's just this sort of negative speculation about things. And it's nothing to do with them. So this guy, when I had the book, Ronnie Shook goes, self-published, right? Yeah. Right? Like he was hoping it'd be self-published.

And I go, no, it's sort of a real book, sort of. So people can get it. They can get it. Yeah. And it's got a cover and everything. It's got a cover. It's on Amazon. It's even in libraries.

Someone just on Facebook said they got it in a library. Yeah. I haven't made a penny from it, but I don't care. It was 10 years in the making. What do you mean? You got an advance? Yeah, define advance. Books are hard, dude. It was, yes.

I was so thrilled. I know we say this a lot, like the money's not important, labor love, but that's I went into a depression 10 years ago when it was getting rejected because when you're an actor you get rejected and you're oh i'm a new york jewish accent i'm not going to be you know a sheriff or a racist you don't take it personally but when they're saying who cares about this guy's life all these agents it was and at that point you weren't doing stand-up really no and and this was my expression right some and and some of the work would had dried up on you yes and and this

was a so did writing the book got you out of the darkness well the darkness came when everyone said who cares no no years ago but then then um yes when the kindle single did well and the book, it really, it sounds all those cliches. It was my baby. It was really expressing myself as a stand up. I really didn't feel like I was like you expressing myself. I remember I did. When I tried coming back, I did a show and Steve Scrooge and who you did a benefit for

can't you be like Mark Maron and sit, You sit on a stool and just tell a long story. I can't because I'm at Flappers and I'm following guys singing Moany Moany and you know what I mean? They're drunk. Mark Marin could just sit and talk about Mel Brooks. So I don't have that. That's why I quit stand-up. After 17 years I came

and stopped again. But the book got renewed interest in your stand-up because I heard that you were doing stand-up. Well, what happened was people tracked me down. I didn't know there was a Jewish book festival circuit. Did you know that? There's a Jewish book festival circuit, and I think there's a Jewish comedy circuit.

I think Elan Gold does very well on the Jew circuit. I thought this window would open for me, but it didn't quite happen. Okay, what happened? So the Jewish book circuit? So this woman tracks me down. She heard about the book. There's things, what they call imprints?

No, that's the, what do they call? Galleys. You've got a galley. And she said, we're in Detroit. We're the biggest Jewish book festival thing, the oldest. And I thought, wow, I thought it's going to be like a Comic-Con where Jews from all over, from everything, sit there. So then I was on this circuit of, no, they asked me to do a few.

A few of them wanted me to do my act, like Atlanta, St. Louis, La Jolla. And when was the last time you did your act? It was like 17 years before that. So I thought, all right, I got to kind of remember my act. Did you look at tapes? I tried that. Then I thought I should try to get in shape a little bit. So I was doing these little events pushing my book

where I sort of thought I was coming up with material. Like I said, like Kathy Griffin, they said, we wish there was more sex. Me too. Then I remembered I had sex with Kathy Griffin. All right, he suffered enough. Give him the more sex. Me too. Then I remembered I had sex with Kathy Griffin. All right, he suffered enough. Give him the book.

Right, right. Yeah, it's Kathy. Get a laugh? Yeah, I would get a laugh. People, what else was part of the thing? Like, I thought was part of my act where people think I'm rich because they see me on one Seinfeld and they point to the Hollywood Hills. He must live up there. And then I point the hand where I really live. I don't know, just nonsense.

Yeah. I thought, all right, I got some jokes you know i'm from doing podcasts so then i would try i go to these comedy clubs to try to remember my act right and it was weird because some of these jokes are 30 years old and they still work and uh not the weird morbid one line as I did when I first started, but dating. Yeah. And I felt,

oh, I feel like I'm like Three Dog Night. Yeah. You know. Income to hits, man. Yeah, like these 30-year-old things. Play Joy to the World. Yes, I go,

and at first I go, I'm having fun because I don't have an agenda. I'm not going to do a Netflix special or a CD. So at first I go, I thought, I quit because I said you can't dabble. Right.

Then I thought, well, maybe I could dabble again. So this Jewish book festival circuit, they have Jews that volunteer. And in every city, they pick you up at the airport. Yeah. And then you have to schmooze with them before the show. Yeah. And places like St. Louis or wherever, they don't look like Jews.

We know that every city had different Jews. Some had athletic-looking, tall, Danish-looking Jews, lesbian, big Jews picking up at the airport. One of them, they had young people because they were like 55 or 60. And they're going, hey, how's Howard? have you met how could you believe our day yeah and so one of them I told about Kathy Griffin so this guy was following around go who else who else but what are you talking about he want who else you sleep with I

want more and so at Detroit some of them came up to me. They go, I'm blind. You haven't done the audio. There were two blind people. So that experience, it was different than you might have hoped. Well, I kind of liked being flown to different cities. And I could tell stories about dealing with Larry David. And I actually wanted to do the Jewish Book Festival circuit again for the paperback.

Yeah. So what happened was with the hardback, I was lucky that someone sought me out. But they have this thing where all the Jewish people from Alabama, they're from everywhere. Yeah. And they come to this thing in New York. Right, right.

And all these Jewish authors, everything, even if they're self-published, do a two-minute pitch, and you hope to get picked. Right, it's like a knacker convention. Yes, yes. So then I said, all right, I'd like to do it for the paperback. They said, oh, you've got to do the pitch thing. I go, well, don't you know me?

I didn't have to do that for the hardback. They said, no, no, no. So you have to pay $600, put yourself up in new york and all these jews are getting flown to new york going i like him yeah so it's not i like expressing myself i love you were the first podcast i went on yeah i didn't know what a podcast really was i feel like my mother people say hey you got to get on wtf yeah but you psych yourself out though i mean you know i mean there is like a certain element to you're not going to, your brain's not going to let you win.

I guess. But I still like expressing myself like this, where it's not joke, joke, da-da, joke, joke, da-da-da. Yeah, it's one of the reasons why I like it, too. So wait, so you want to talk about the real Kramer or you do? It's all right. Yeah. Wait, so you want to talk about the real Kramer or you do?

It's all right. Yeah, this guy sued me for defamation for a million dollars. For the Seinfeld piece. Maybe we'll have you back. But for the Seinfeld section? Yes, the part that we talked about. So this is the guy that Kramer was based on. What's his name, Kenny? Kenny Kramer.

Kenny Kramer. Yes. So he decides to sue Fred Stoller. For a million dollars. For what? What did you say? Well, I ruined his standing in the gay community. That's what he says on the thing.

Well, what was the- Well, okay. So basically, in 96, I was in New York, and he heard I needed a place to stay because I didn't want to stay with my mother. I should have stayed with my mother. That would have been less stressful. So he says, you stay with me, but you've got to go on my Kramer reality tour as the special guest. He has a bus tour where he shows, hey, this is where they bought the cookies.

That's his big racket. That's his payoff for the Seinfeld show. Yes. Yeah. So I thought, okay. Yes. Yeah. So I thought, OK. So I was just making jokes because it's true that he had this sidekick running around the bus screaming out expressions down the bus. And I was begging with Kramer, please let me off the bus. I can't take this. You know, and I said things like I was surprised to show like Seinfeld could be so lame down.

Yeah. You know, because, yeah, you have a 50-year-old guy with a list screaming, not that there's anything wrong with it or whatever. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. not that there's anything wrong with it or whatever. I don't know. So then he writes this open letter to me on Facebook demanding a public apology.

For what? Well, I called him an opportunist, which we all are. And so he sues me for calling him an opportunist. And he was just livid because, yeah, I said Seinfeld was lame down with this bus tour, which, yes, that's probably the biggest show in sitcom history. And a bus tour with a guy running up and down a bus is, I guess I could say, a lame aversion. Yeah.

So you would say this is First Amendment, free speech saying, you know, and I said things like, you know, whatever. How'd you ruin his standing in the gay community? Okay. like he you know whatever how'd you ruin his standing in the gay community okay well this is so i said the guy screamed out um when the in the village where the gays are not that there's anything wrong with it come on not that there's anything wrong with it so he said i said he was taunting gays and it made him look like a homophobe for taunting gays. Kenny or the other guy? Well, it was the other guy doing it, but it made him look like a homophobe because the guy screamed out. But you didn't say anything like that.

No. I said. You just said what happened. Yes. The guy screamed out not that there's anything wrong with it. So Kenny was just, he just got pissed off. He was pissed off that I hurt his feelings. How did it end?

Seven months of litigation. my god expenses because he sued the publisher and we had to write first of all he's a what's it called a public figure and all this stuff yeah so then after seven months finally they had oral arguments yeah so the judge says to his lawyer um if the supposed taunts was in the bus air condition with the windows down. So his lawyer goes, what if they'll gaze on the bus? And then the judge says, wouldn't they know that's an expression from Seinfeld and not that there's anything wrong with it? And then the lawyer goes, that's the worst thing you could say to a homosexual in 2014. So then the judge threw it out. So then he appealed based on

his lawyer never saw Seinfeld. He tried to appeal. What? That's hilarious. Is it over? Yes. Unless, I'm just kidding. So this is all in the book? Yes. And the book, you can get it on Amazon

and hopefully they'll have you back on the Jewish book. You know what's funny? The Jewish book. Even in the book. Yes. And the book, you can get it on Amazon, and hopefully they'll have you back on the Jewish book. You know what's funny? The Jewish book, even on the book tours, I was a guest because I wanted to do Strand in New York City, you know, big book thing. And they said, all right, we'd love to have you. What celebrity can you get? I go, what are you talking about?

They go, well, to bring the people in. I go, but I'm the guy. They go, well, this is the Strand. Oh, no, well, to bring the people in. I go, but I'm the guy. They go, well, this is the strand. Oh, no, really? Yeah, so then before, you know, Amy Stiller, I know from New York, our dad is Jerry. So then I said, all right, I got Jerry Stiller. They said, all right.

So then they called me up, someone in publicity saying, will you and Jerry Stiller go on some big morning show, afternoon show in New York. And he goes, I could get you on if Jerry comes. So he's co-signing for me. I go, I'm not going to ask him. It makes no sense sitting next to me. Yeah.

So it was kind of, yeah. Did you get Jerry to do the event? He did. And how was that? It was a lot of fun. It was a homecoming in New York. He was great. Nice of him to do it. It was very nice. in New York. He was great. I did it.

Nice of him to do it. It was very nice. Good guy. Yes. Menchie, I learned about getting blurbs. Yeah? Oh, good. Ray Romano wrote the forward.

Oh, it's great. So it's updated. It's not a 10-year-old book. I put in stuff that, you know, I buffed it up. Well, I think you're hilarious and I, and I'm glad you came back and I'm glad things sort of, you get it.

When I was in some ways worked out for you. So when I would do podcast, they would end the podcast. Maybe we'll have you back, Fred. He, he, he,

he, he, he, he, you know, so that's, that's a good time. You can always come back.

Hey, I really, again, this is a, I hope I wasn't. No, I love you, man. All right, because sometimes I'm trying to get all the stories in. That's all right.

The first time I was on this, I wasn't trying to score. I was just trying to talk. Well, you know what? It didn't feel like you were trying to score. No, no, first time. No, no, this time either. It was exciting. And I think that people that listen, if they remember the first time,

I think we're all happy that this thing worked out a little bit. And if you don't want to do stand-up anymore, you don't have to. I love being conversational. I'll do it. I was supposed to open for Norm MacDonald in Austin, and that would have been fun, me and Norm. Right. I have it.

Yeah, but just to just – i still say you can't dabble and 99 the comics i know rather do that than anything else yeah and i think it kind of got to be that all right fred thank you thank you so much mark oh my god it always makes me feel better to talk to Fred. Go to his website. Get involved with Fred Stoller at fredstoller.net. Will you? Can you? So Jake Kasdan is a good guy.

Like I said, I met him once before. We have some common friends. But it's one of those situations where I'm a pretty huge fan of his father. And I think a lot of you might be you know what i'm saying he uh you know he wrote the empire strikes back he wrote the raiders of the last ark he wrote and directed body heat he wrote the return of the jedi he wrote directed uh the big chill um you know grand canyon was an interesting movie he's done a lot of movies that i didn't see and

he's back in business with the Star Wars franchise but but that's his dad so you know part of me sort of like what's it like growing up with that guy so I can't avoid that stuff but Jake is done when he was a little kid he had small parts and a few of his dad's movies but he was also involved as a director and producer on Freaks and Geeks. You know, he made a couple of movies, Zero Effect. He directed Orange County. He produced, wrote, and directed the TV set. He directed, produced, and wrote Walk Hard, the Dewey Cox story that some people know. He directed Bad Teacher, and he directed Sex Tape.

He did some other stuff. But, you know, he's a young guy did some other stuff but you know he's a young guy that's you know that's obviously capable and has done some great work and it was uh but you know there's still part of me it's like Lawrence Kasdan's your dad but I'm sure he gets that all the time but he's a sweet guy and uh and it's a good story it's a good career story it's a guy that sort of had to adapt and learn how to do a lot of different things and and i enjoy talking to the uh the young mr kasdan as i said earlier he's the executive producer of the grinder which is that comedy that's coming out with rob lowe tomorrow night tuesday september 29th 8 30 p.m on fox so this He's a comic.

He lives a comic's life. Yeah, he could use it then, maybe. Well, he could definitely use the car. But he's going to give me a couple grand for it. And then part of me is sort of like, I'm doing all right. Take the car. Maybe this is a moment where you give Ryan a car. I get it.

I hear you. Have you had those moments in your life? I relate to the moment, I guess, and not that specific moment, but I- The generosity, Jake. Have you found it in your heart? I hear you. Yeah. Oh, it's an impulse.

So now that might be something I regret. No, I don't think so. Maybe 10 years down the line when I have nothing, I don't have a pot to piss in. And you're wishing you had that car back? Yeah, yeah. Wish I had that fucking two grand. i had that 2006 camry yeah either the two grand or the car so where are you coming in from man you're working i am got a new show that i'm working on called the grinder yeah with rob lowe and fred savage oh really yeah you're working on

fresh off the boat i'm working on fresh off the Boat. I'm working on Fresh Off the Boat as well. And then New Girl, which I've worked on for years now, is starting to figure out their next season. The writers start working next week. Explain to me how TV works, Jake, and then we'll move back. I feel like you know a little, though.

No, I don't pay attention. My manager tells me, like, well, since you're doing this and that, we're going to get little though. No, I don't pay attention. I just sort of, my manager tells me like, well, since you're doing this and that, we're going to get you this. Yeah, no, right. And you show up, I get it. Yeah. This one, they've all been a little bit different,

but this one and New Girl as well were shows that somebody sent me the script and asked me to direct the pilot. And in both cases, I sort of like loved working on the shows and worked well with the guys who created the show. In the case of New Girl, it's Liz Merriweather and on Grindr, it's these guys, Jared Paul and Andy Mogul.

In both cases, writers that I had known and been a fan. But you're brought in as a director. Brought in as a director and producer. Right. Which means different things in different cases. Right. And a lot of times is just sort of a credit. And television.

Yeah. And I've somehow done it in a way where it means that I actually stick around for a long time and help them figure out how to get it going. But not a showrunner, necessarily. Not a showrunner. Working with the showrunners. Okay. Like a consultant. But like a consultant who's there all the time.

Like a guy with a job on set. It's a lot like a guy with a job, that's for sure. So it's a production. It is an actual producer job. Yeah, it is like producing shows. But not a writer. Not writing with them in the room, no. So you bring to it your... Reading everything, watching everything, and then helping them

kind of... Filmic ideas, construction? Some of that. Shooting? Yes, exactly. Maybe this isn't funny. Exactly. Maybe this character doesn't need to be here. Does this feel like of a piece with the last thing we did? Okay. Is this about anything?

Do we care whether it's about anything? You're like the in-house fixer. Where's Jake the fixer? A little bit sometimes. Which is, for better or worse, that is what it is a lot of the time. Well, let's go back. Let's track it because you have a famous name to some of us. Mm-hmm.

I think to movie buffs and perhaps Star Wars nerds. Yeah, exactly. Certainly to Star Wars nerds, yeah. Lawrence Kasdan is your father. Yes. The funny thing is that I first really learned about him through the first movie, through Body Heat. Through Body Heat, yeah. You know, that was like when I was in high school and starting to get into film.

Yeah. We saw that movie and it was like, holy fuck, man. Yeah. It's like a noir. It's like a contemporary noir. Yeah. That's when he first started throwing around words like that, contemporary noir. Yeah.

And that's like an insanely cool movie too it is a good one that holds up and it's so good yeah so you grow up with that guy where were you where were you born i was born in detroit but we moved out here when i was really young right and um he so that he could start trying to do that work and do you do you remember that do you remember the struggle for him or were you already in, are your first memories on the set being held by Harrison Ford or running up, pushing that boulder maybe?

Do I remember the boulder? Yeah, no, I remember when it was starting to happen and the excitement around that, but I was a little kid you know and i remember i remember the transition from a little kid's point of view of from nothing going on like he was working in advertising is that what he did he's yeah and copywriting copywriting it's interesting that that's sort of like a creative person's outlet sometimes initially like like creative people yeah who are who are either clever and visually creative, but also like literary do that.

Yeah. And are frustrated by it. Of course. I think is a big part of it. of like he was kind of willfully doing something that he was frustrated by, knowing that it would help spur him on to other stuff. Oh, really? So he's that guy like, I need to hate myself good and deep.

I guess he might have had a little bit of that. He needed to move on. Yeah, a little. I mean, I think he was very focused on what he wanted to do when he was writing like crazy. Screenplays. Yeah But screenplays. Yeah, screenplays.

And you have a younger brother? I do. Now, so you remember when Body Heat opened well, perhaps? I don't really. I don't really remember that detail of it. I remember when he was making it. I remember going to visit where they were shooting in Florida. And meeting William Hurt yeah I remember that and

his weird nasy like oh how's he talk he's got that he's got a very specific way he has a very specific rhythm yeah yeah yeah sound yeah

that's probably more memorable than the screenwriting and all that stuff is meeting that weirdo I remember that and then you know they made a bunch of movies together so he was kind of around

yeah for years. Oh, really? Yeah. At the house? A little bit. I mean, there were friends. William's here again.

Why is he outside, Dad? Why is William hurt outside? He was initially like the guy who, you know, he was in all the movies that my dad made at that time. Do you ever? Him and Kevin Kline. Right. Yeah. Those are big actors.

Yeah. At that time. Right. Yeah. Those are big actors at that time. Yeah, yeah. Do you like, when do you remember, because I'm assuming, you get along with your dad? We're very close, yeah. That's nice. You seem like a guy that gets along with his family. It's a nice thing. Strikes me as that pleasant disposition.

You can tell right away. Yeah, you can actually. I'm sure you can at this point. Yeah, you've probably talked to enough people about their family to where they walk in your door, sit in it. I'm sure when the president got here, you probably thought. I knew that he had a problem with his father. Well documented. Just by looking at him, yeah.

Well documented problem with his father. I cheated on that one. But you were, like, I think I mistook. I thought that maybe you were the kids in the bathtub in the big chill but no no that was my brother oh he got the

the big he got the bathtub he got the bathtub scene I am in there but he's the he's the the kid in the bathtub in the beginning

because he was you needed a younger kid memorable scene yeah singing Jeremiah was a bullfrog exactly that's how he got his SAG card

I suppose it is and you were in the movie that was how he finally got his side yeah it's a long haul for him exactly a lot of non-union commercials for secondary baby food frankly embarrassing work so so you were in it though you were right i was i have uh i i'm in the funeral scene um i i walk up to tom barringer's character and ask him if uh for an autograph oh okay yeah yeah i remember that i watched the shit out of that movie did you sure that's a movie that like you can return to every x number of years and it will have a slightly different... Right, as you get older. A little bit.

And, you know, as you get older and then suddenly the characters are younger than you. You're like, what? I had that happen once recently. And, you know,

you have sort of a shift in perspective. With that movie? Are they younger than us? They are. I mean, they're like... Late 30s? Yeah.

I mean, mid-30s. It was interesting that movie defined a generation's evolution into sort of upper middle class, middle class people. It has a lot of stuff in it. It has a lot of stuff in it. It's not easy to dismiss. No.

Yeah. Now, when you're growing up with that guy, when does... He wrote Star Wars after Body Heat, he got body he got him to what the what did he write star no actually it was the other way he he he was writing screenplays just like in you don't mind talking about it not at all no no uh he uh he was writing screenplays like at night kind of and While he's doing ad work. Yeah. While he's trying to think of slogans.

Exactly. Catch phrases. That's exactly. Jingles, maybe. That's right. Catchy stuff to say about paper towels. Yeah. Does he have any to his credit?

Is there some? You know, I don't really know the ad you can point to exactly. But that's a casting. No. Larry Kasten. That that's a casting. Larry Kasdan. That's an early Kasdan. I know you like Raiders, but this thing he did for toilet paper.

Exactly. Exactly. It's like an area that he doesn't talk about that much. Maybe he wasn't that good at it. I don't know. I mean, I feel like people would talk about it if you were there. I'd love it if he did an A&W campaign.

Something ridiculous that doesn't exist anymore. I mean, it was a Detroit-based ad firm, so it was probably car-centric stuff. I can't believe you haven't asked him. Maybe I'll have him in here. I'll ask him. Yeah, you should. Absolutely. But he was writing screenplays at night kind of thing.

And he wrote The Bodyguard. You remember that movie with Costner? Yeah, and Whitney Houston. Yeah, he wrote that many, many years before it was made. Right. For who? For McQueen. Stephen McQueen, many years.

Yeah, yeah. queen stephen queen many years yeah yeah and um i was sort of like on the strength of that i believe he he got the job to and then another movie called continental divide actually and it was those two what was that movie it was belushi right and um it was sort of like on the strength of those two spec scripts, he was hired to, I believe, I want to say that it was Spielberg's company had bought Continental Divide. Yeah. to write Raiders of the Lost Ark and worked with those guys, wrote that script with Lucas and Spielberg. I guess they had had a good time in the course of doing that. And the story, at least as it's been told to me,

is he sort of turned it in. Over and over again. Exactly. As I've heard agnosia. That's not quite, but I've heard agnosia. That's not quite, but I've heard it, is that he turned it in. Well, sometimes you just

witness this story. But also, you maybe alter it in your head. Sure. But I think that the thing is that he turned it in. Raiders. Raiders.

And basically, like that day, Lucas said, the person, the woman who was writing Empire Strikes Back just passed away. And will you do that? And so he went directly into writing Empire. So he wrote Raiders and Empire Strikes Back in the space of several months.

Those turned out to be fairly big movies. Those were popular. Kids liked those movies. They did. months and um those turned out to be fairly big movies those were popular yeah kids like those they did yeah and uh and then off of those he went and um and made body heat and and lucas kind of in a um uncredited position sort of helped him, yeah. And so he learned how to direct from Lucas on the slide. Yeah, I guess so. Although I don't know if he was really there, but he was like, he helped make it happen. Right. Oh, okay.

And he went on to write which other Star Wars movies? And then he wrote Jedi. Yeah. The third. Yeah. And then he had nothing to do with the next set that came out 15 years ago yeah but now he's back he's back and he's gonna put that in the credits yeah maybe he's back that's i think that's how they say it at comic-con at the scribe helm exactly, and then his role in that

has gradually increased a little bit, and so he's really involved in that. So that's exciting for him. It's really cool, yeah. Yeah. And it's a wild thing where, like, 30 years later... Yeah, guess what? We're going back to space.

Yeah, you know? And, like, people are interested in those movies. Sure. People are excited about them, and, you know... Well, are interested in those movies. Sure. People are excited about them. Well, I imagine they're excited that he's back because he probably represents to them the integrity of the franchise in some way, like from the old days.

I imagine there's plenty of Star Wars people that are like, they haven't been good since Kasdan was writing them. I'm sure there are people who feel that way, and I think that he certainly represents, like, some continuity to the original movies. I mean, he is not even just representing it.

I mean, he is direct continuity to the original movies. And he's got great sense of story, that guy. Yeah. So now let's move to you. Don't be insulted. Jacob Dillon in here was a little more difficult to get him to talk about his father, but I asked. Because, you know, you went Don't be insulted. When I had Jacob Dillon in here, it was a little more difficult to get him to talk about his father. But I asked.

Because you went into the same racket. Yeah, and I'm not at all insulted by the way. I'm happy to, not at all happy to talk. Well, I think what happens, not so much with what you do, but with somebody like Jacob,

you're sort of publicly you know drawn into comparisons to your father if you're going to go out with a guitar yeah and be jacob dylan people are gonna be like really yeah that's a pretty radical example of that thing too no no but it is and i think that you know on some level in my mind you know i don't compare you to but you think in terms of like the decisions you make obviously as a writer as a director you you're not as public and the comparisons are going to be different right but uh there are sort of thoughts of like you know did you think about doing something else was it easier because he was your dad but i mean when did you start

realizing that that that show business was the business you wanted to be in. Well, I mean, I think that I had this incredible sort of access and point of view from like a really young age that let me see what it looked like and what it seemed like. And, you know, it was really attractive, like even when I was a little kid. Right. How could it not be? Yeah. Going on set? It looked like the best job in the world, you know, it was really attractive, like even when I was a little kid. Right. How could it not be? Yeah, I mean, it looked like the best job in the world, you know? Yeah. And he certainly reinforced that idea, you know, directly, like this is incredibly fortunate circumstance

and, you know, realize how lucky you are, like even as a kid right you know to be here yeah yeah to be tough this is what our life is like right and um you know that we get to that he got to do that stuff at that time and i think you know um and he paid some serious dues i mean he was working supporting a family writing scripts at night probably turning in dozens of scripts yeah that didn't go anywhere. Exactly, and he has, you know, like this, he's got this thing framed in his office that's like everybody who passed on bodyguard.

Oh, really? You know, and it's like a lot of people. And then, you know, it's like, so it's, you know, a testament to the kind of persistence of it, which is another real lesson and a worthwhile thing that I guess I could see close up, that there was, you have to- No easy route.

Yeah, you got to keep working at it. You got to keep working, and once you do get your break, you got to deliver on some level, right? That's a big, that's another big important part of it and your brothers in show business because it runs out really quickly you know you certainly need to the goodwill yeah a little bit you know as many as much as there is any to begin with which is

a quite you know but there's there's certainly like um so you the jump between so you're larry's kid yeah to like all right you did a thing now you're in yeah a to like, all right, you did a thing, now you're in. Yeah, a little bit. It doesn't quite follow to like, you're Larry's kid, I can't wait to see your movie. It's more of like- It's not a direct line. We got to do something with Larry's kid. Yeah, yeah. It's funny because now I think back on it with like a slightly different perspective. And I imagine, I mean, I think about the things that I'm asked to read

or, you know, I can't imagine it was like that exciting to read Larry's kids' stuff, you know? Like I can't imagine that people were stoked that they got that opportunity necessarily on that basis. What were those scripts? You know, I mean, I... I don't know. Like, I mean, I started writing scripts

at a certain point, you know, and... How old? I was like, you know, early 20s. Yeah? Did you go to school and shit? I dropped out of a couple of different colleges and then started basically doing that. So you went... Okay, so you grew up pretty much here in Los Angeles.

Bev Hills? The Valley initially and then Beverly Hills when I was in high school. And you're living that life, Beverly Hills teenager life. Sort of, but like probably maybe like a slightly odd version of it. Oh yeah? How so? A little bit. I mean, I went to high school.

I finished high school at like a sort of small kind of artsy private school. The one down in Santa Monica? No. My brother, you're thinking of Crossroads, where my brother went and where my now wife went. But I went to a different one called Winward that was at the time sort of another one kind of like that. Yeah. And is sort of a slightly different thing now. But it was sort of like a progressive artsy kind of school.

And so it wasn't, you know, with a surprisingly diverse kind of student body that a lot of whom are still my very close friends, actually. Like, I kept a lot of close friends from high school. Were these Hollywood kids? People we would know? That's the thing is that they weren't mostly. But Crossroads was. Crossroads was a little sort of more developed and had a little more of that at that time.

Right. You know, there was a little bit of it but not that much and so it didn't really feel like a like a beverly hills right life exactly although i'm sure in many ways it was but it wasn't um you know it felt like everybody came from slightly different kinds of worlds. Right. And the people that I was close to were sort of, had a very diverse, you know. So you weren't running around with celebrity kids? No, I wasn't really like running around with celebrity kids that much.

You don't strike me as the party guy. No, I've never been that guy. It's that obvious. You strike me as the thoughtful kid that hang around with the delicate ones. Yeah, I was like, I hung out with the, I was the thoughtful one with the delicate ones. Exactly. Just a perfect read. Maybe still am which is like maybe nothing changes from the time you're 15 it's possible

well i think a little bit you do sort of uh find that you're uh you're whatever you were with a little more confidence hopefully yeah and a little less uh anger for me yeah yeah i And a little less anger for me. Yeah. Yeah. A little more confidence and a little more, although I don't know actually if I, it's a different confidence. I probably had too much confidence then in some ways. I was very comfortable with my thoughtful. Uh-huh. Delicate friends. Thoughtful, delicate friends.

Yeah, exactly. And then, you know, I think that, I don't know. You went to college. I like all the same stuff I liked then. Like what? I mean, I like the same movies. Yeah. I like a lot of the same, kind of.

Like, I loved Bob Dylan then. I don't know. What about movies? What movies were the ones that made you, outside of your dad's movies, maybe, that made you want to pursue things in this business? I mean, I think, you know, I i had like uh on the initially like i was definitely a kid who was like you know just enraptured by comedies of that time you know the the bill murray harold raymond's canon and then you know those kind of movies but then there was a as i got

older i sort of you know you'd start to get more sophisticated hopefully a little more and you know as i was kind of really starting to try to study what? Well, I went to college briefly, twice. What happened? I just kept dropping out. I was unhappy in the first place and left, and then I went to another place where I thought maybe I would be better.

Which places were these? The first place was Hampshire College. Sure, hippie school. So you went right from a progressive... You must go to these places. No, yeah, the progressive... You must go to the... You must play those... No, I don't play Hampshire.

Do you play Northampton? No. But it's funny to me that you go from a progressive... Yeah, well, that was the thing. School, high school. But then I went to another one, too, because I went to Santa Cruz after that. Oh, my God.

Yeah, I just kept going to these progressive hippie schools. You just never went to a real school. And I didn't like them. So it was like, I didn't learn. Yeah, I just kept going to these progressive hippie schools. You just never went to a real school. And they didn't like them. So it was like I didn't learn my lesson. I just kept trying the same thing. The freedom of not having structure was appealing to you. Yeah, exactly. So much so that

I eventually abandoned the whole endeavor to where there was no structure at all. Did you get a credit for that? I don't think so. How do you want to design your education? i want to abandon education yeah exactly wow so that's your thesis that was in school and i really followed through with that that's great they must be proud of you you should go back and get some sort of uh doctorate i think it's unlikely a uh wasn't that kind of education right right like he's back

exactly this is the guy that majored in leaving. Exactly. That's exactly right. I was majoring in leaving. Okay, so you get back here, and you're just going to put your nose to the grindstone and write shit. Yeah. And then, you know, your dad said, I'm projecting everything. Well, okay, look, if you put something together, I'll give it to my agent.

I'll give it to my agent. Not exactly, but I mean, he wasn't that, you know, he was kind of reading stuff. For you. Yeah, and giving me great kind of like feedback and a lot of how I learned to do that. Well, let's talk about that. So what was the first script that you said, all right, dad, I did it. Here's 120 pages of mess that I made. It was, you know, well, I initially before that actually had been writing, this will give you a real sense. I was writing plays in high school.

Sure, so it's a lucrative undertaking. Yeah, absolutely, especially in high school. Yeah. especially in high school yeah and um so i started doing that like really young and he could be uh he was a he and my mother both were like a great sort of she's a writer as well she's she's probably wouldn't call herself a writer but they have written together a bunch um they've written a couple of movies together which one's accidental tourist no uh grand canyon oh yeah yeah yeah and um a recent movie called darling companion okay and um but she's like a thoughtful person and a great reader and um and anyway like in that at that time, they would read stuff, and they were very supportive,

but also could be strong about, like, this is not really a play because it has no drama, that kind of thing. As a note, a parental note? Kind of. I mean, you know, maybe slightly more. You were going a little arty, were you? Delicately. I don't even think I was. I mean, it was more, it was just like learning or, you know, trying to learn how drama works, I guess.

You know, and so, you know, it started very young. I had this kind of like conversation going with them that continued into the first few scripts. And there were a couple of like, I'm trying and, you know, would try for a long time to get something to be really good and have a couple of mediocre attempts that were, you know, probably sort of embarrassing and then got to one that seemed like maybe there was something to it and I kept writing that for a long time. Which one was that?

It was called Zero Effect and that became my first movie. Ben Stiller. Yeah, with Ben and Bill Pullman. That was my first movie. And it did well? Did not do well. No.

There's no way to, I mean, you know, it was sort of, people liked it enough to where I was able to make a credible case that I could do more of this maybe. So that was a big undertaking. It was a big undertaking. And throughout the course of writing Zero Effect, you were in touch with Lawrence Kasdan, your father.

I was. And he helped you in structuring it and directing it as well? And like locating what the big problem was kind of in the writing part of it. What do those problems look like? Is it like it turns into the story? I mean, you got no third act? In that case, it was probably like there's sort of a character comedy central to it,

but it's a detective story. Right. And the detective story part of it was not totally figured out. And it took a long time to figure out. You kind of need to have that figured out so it goes somewhere. Yeah, a little bit. And so it feels like it has an ending. That's tricky.

It was tricky, and it took a long, you know, it was like I spent another year working on it or something before. And once you got the gig, who produced the movie? Did your father produce it? No, it was Castle Rock. Oh, yeah. I remember Castle Rock. What was that guy's name?

Glenn? Well, he was the TV guy. Yeah, the TV guy. Yeah, exactly. I remember meeting with him post-Seinfeld. He can give a fuck about anything. That Seinfeld was very good for those guys. They were great guys.

Martin Schaefer was the president of the company, and Rob Reiner was his company. And Rob was kind of around as well and sort of would respond and give notes and thoughts. So he was like an early voice as well. Yeah, I like his voice. I like to hear him giving notes. Yeah, he was great.

He was great. He's made some good movies. He's a guy who would watch the movie and suggest that you cut out your favorite scene and make you talk it all the way through. You respect his filmmaking? Yeah, well, Rob, I mean, absolutely. And he had just this incredible run of movies,

you know, back-to-back movies that started with Spinal Tap, which is one of my all-time favorite comedies. And then The Kids, Stand By Me. Stand By Me, and then... When Harry Met Sally, Misery, Few Good Men. Yeah, Harry Met Sally was right after that. It's hard to think of anybody who's got a first five movies quite like that.

Yeah, and that are that popular and sort of broad in audience appeal. Varied. So that was your first movie experience. And your father, did he come to set? They came to visit. At that time. But what about figuring out your way around the camera and shit? Well, you know, I'd been around it a lot.

And I had been around one of his movies, Wyatt Earp, like really closely a few years before that. Because you were old enough to take it in. Yeah. And I was there sort of for most of that production. And the idea was that I was writing a book about the making of that movie. And I was like, the idea was that I was like writing a book about the making of that movie. And what ended up- How'd that book come out?

Well, what it ended up happening was the, I wrote this, I sort of like put together this kind of promotional thing from these interviews because I did like crazy amounts of interviews with everyone involved in making the movie. Like a lot of like behind the scenes, like the cowboys who take care of the horses. Yeah.

You know, like this incredibly detailed sort of survey of like everything that goes into making a huge western. Western, yeah. And then I wrote like a hundred pages of a book, like an actual text about this, like trying to synthesize it into something. Yeah. like an actual text about this like trying to synthesize it into something yeah and then you know the movie came out and it was sort of like a disappointment and i think that at that time i like the movie the movie's great yeah it was to that what happened with it was disappointing to the people who made it but it was a it was you know it's a movie's really cool it's a monster it's a monster and it was you know a seven month shoot and it was just that know, the movie's really cool. It's a monster. It's a monster. And it was, you know, a seven-month shoot.

And it was just this kind of scope that, you know, it's like an unusual thing to be able to see. You don't see it anymore. Yeah. It was the last of them. It was right up there. You know, it's certainly a dying breed a little bit. Isn't it interesting your father's compulsion to make the,

that was the second Western. Yeah, that was the second Western. And Silverado, I loved. He loves Westerns because there's and so did costner you know and they had that partnership they made a bunch of movies together and it was just this um but you know it was this massive it's such a it's such a film thing yeah to sort of take that the you know i think what it seems like your old man might have liked about story you know you could put it all into a very human package with a western create these mythic personalities yeah yeah and i think you know he grew up on them a little bit and it was just like

those guys love cowboy movies yeah so you're watching his relationship with the cinematographer i was watching it really closely and he had the most amazing people working on that movie, too. So it was like, you know, it was Owen Roisman, who was just like a genius DP, who, you know, had a French connection, and they work amazing movies. And it was this incredible sort of you know i sat there quietly basically taking notes for like seven months and um and then actually beyond that all the way through

the editing and everything and um it was it was a real that was your film school it was a little bit of a film school yeah so by the time you got to Zero Effect, you had a certain amount of knowledge. You knew your way around the set. I did. And I knew what everybody did and I had some sense of how the kind of mechanism of it worked and the intention behind things.

And then I surrounded myself with really good people was the other thing. And I had a DP named Bill Pope and and then i surrounded myself with really good people was the other thing and i had you know a dp named bill pope who's like a brilliant guy that um taught me a ton about how that worked and then but then you didn't do another movie for years for a few years yeah what'd you do i did i went and i made the pilot for Freaks and Geeks. With Judd. How did you get involved with those guys?

You know, he called me up out of nowhere. And basically, we had met once or twice through Ben in the course of making Zero Effect. And basically, he called up one day and said, there's this pilot that I'm producing and I need someone to come and direct it. And I remember he said, and help me with the music. That was like in his head,

that was the hole that he needed filled or something. And he described it to me. And I had been at that time, it had been about a year since Zero Effect had come out. And I had been sort of, I'd been writing. I was living in San Francisco mostly at that time. I went up there for a little while right after that movie came out to just kind of like. Run away? Just get out of town for a little while right after that movie came out to just kind of like... Run away? Just get out of town for a minute.

Oh, yeah? See friends and stuff. Were you disappointed? You know, initially, I was... It was a little bit of a... I guess I was sort of like... I was disappointed that it wasn't quite what you imagine as you're making it in terms of when it came out. But it was also a great experience.

And I was really proud of it. And it's just the first time you put one of those things out, it usually beats the hell out of you a little bit one way or another. Why wouldn't it? No matter how you frame it or what you've been through or what your family's been through, there's probably this like, yeah, this is a good one. This is a good movie. Yeah, you just hope for the best, you know? Yeah, yeah. And even if you know, as I did,

like that it can go any different way, it's still, you know, and the truth is, it's always like that. I mean, whenever you put these things out, you sort of know that it can be any kind of thing. Yeah, it might be, it's out of your control. It can be great, it can be any kind of thing. Yeah, it might be. It's out of your control. It can be great.

It can be brutal. Right. You know? Yeah. So I, yeah, I went up to my friends basically. Was it well received by critics? Yeah. Yeah. It was.

I mean, it had been, I had no legitimate complaints about anything. And I kind of knew that too. You know what I mean? Like I had a, I knew exactly what it was sort of, you know? Like that I had gotten to do this thing. It was all I had wanted to do.

It was thrilling and all of that, you know? And then you got to do it again. So it's just like, and I think that there was, I'd been working on it for a long time at that point and i was just kind of like resetting and wanted to see you know some friends who lived somewhere else kind of and be somewhere else from it find seek uh uh refuge with the thoughtful delicate people exactly i'd lost track of the thoughtful delicate people and i needed to find them and where were they they were in san francisco obviously yeah they they were they were dropping out in a different way that's where they are that's exactly that town's built

for that that's where you graduate to they felt like they had finally found the right place they probably had exactly and then judd calls you up to direct and pick music he called me up and asked me if i wanted to direct this pilot and i uh he described it to me over the phone and described the opening with the freaks and geeks pilot opens with like uh you know in the bleachers of a football game it's like a cheerleader and a jockey guy kind of like having an overwrought um very emotional sort of typical high school television show conversation about their relationship and then the camera like drops under the bleachers and you meet the like freak dirtbag guys who the show is actually going to be about right and then you sort of like get into their conversation and then swing over to the geek kids who are like, you know, reciting dialogue from Caddyshack to each other. Right. And and then get confronted by a bully. And I thought it was it was like in that description. I mean, he probably said about that, you know, it just sounded just, I loved it. And I loved talking to him about it kind of

and basically said right in that moment, like, yeah, sure, you know. And I hadn't worked in television before and didn't really know that much about it. And it was something I was interested in and kind of on a whim decided to do it. And then they sent me Paul's script and it was great. But I mean, all this happened in about 36 hours and it was just sort of like yeah sure why not and it ended up being this

experience that kind of changed changed a lot of what followed you know yeah yeah still impacted a lot of so you directed that pilot and then four other ones. So I directed about a third of it. Yeah. And was there the whole time, you know, like stuck around. It was the first show that I directed the pilot and then ended up sticking around kind of. And that's become sort of what you do. Yeah, it's one of the things I do, yeah.

Jake will hang out. He does the pilot. He'll stick around forever. He likes to hang out. A I do, yeah. Jake will hang out. He does the pilot. He'll stick around forever. He likes to hang out. A little bit, yeah. He's getting the producer credit. He'll fucking hang out. Just he'll do whatever the thing is.

He'll probably go do it. Whatever you might at least want to deal with, he'll probably run down there and do it. But so that was an amazing experience because that crew, a couple who I've talked to, has gone on, as you have, to do amazing things and continue working from that juncture forward. It was an amazing thing.

I mean, it was just this, you know, that you kind of couldn't have anticipated, really. Yeah. If you would have projected to now from then. Where everybody would be. And described it to everybody, you would sound insane. All three guys will be, you know, bankable leading men. Right. from then where everybody would and described it to everybody you would sound insane well the people that all three guys will be you know bankable leading men right you know it's just like uh and seth rogan will be the first you know i mean it was you know i mean everybody involved because

has kept going and it was certainly the other side of the coin of my it was the other major formative experience and also that that that show is is pretty filmic it's not a three camera box that's right so you know it was more in your wheelhouse anyways coming into it it was and i think that i i think that maybe that is something that i helped bring to it almost without knowing because it was just that was sort of the look and feel that I that I knew and related to. And I felt like was was right for that thing. But there was also just this huge learning curve at that moment. About what? About comedy, you know, about like a classic kind of comedy process um a joke oriented comedy process

really yeah because that sort of sublimated in that anyway as well i mean that's not again it's not an audience show it's not the comedy is very it comes from an organic place you're not doing you know joke to joke it's not punchy in in the way that certainly a lot of those people, their subsequent work has been, but it was definitely a world where it had to be funny, and if something was funny, it was going in the show. That would be enough to get it in the show. It's a way of thinking about whether something's scoring and making check marks in a script and all of that.

You know, just sort of like, because Judd really did come from, as is well documented, you know, a kind of strict comedy background. And I was really interested, but just didn't know anything about that. So that's really what you had to learn. And it was a big thing. Do you remember specific? And also the idea that they could improvise, the idea that you could depart from the script and what happens might be better. That you could shoot alternate jokes. better right that you could um shoot alternate jokes and you know and part of it was me sort of trying to figure out how to build a system for doing that stuff that kind of allowed for that

room as a director as a director yeah and then i think a lot of what we together figured out about how that would work has informed a lot of what a lot of us have done since you know sure um in terms of like how can you shoot something in sort of a filmic way that feels like a movie but has that kind of looseness to it and all of you have done it all of you have directed pretty big comedies i mean you have judd paul you yeah and i guess ben was off doing the stiller show at that time right during freaks and geeks or was that yeah ben was not involved in freaks and geeks except that he came to do a in a sort of like because we could feel the acts coming down on freaks really almost the whole time it was on the air and just because

of viewership yeah the ratings were terrible and we didn't really you know that was um it had uh it had fans for sure but there was there was just a strong sense with the way the network would talk about it that it was not going to last very long and um as sort of a last-ditch effort to you know trying to come up with everything we possibly could to be able to keep making them ben generously came and did like a cameo um in what in retrospect seems like a fairly forced kind of story idea which is that he was playing a secret service agent oh yeah yeah yeah in the accompanying the vice president to speak in the auditorium of their school but he was really really funny and then when you started to do the bigger movies i mean what was the after freaks

and geeks you did um i did that right after freaks and geeks i did the pilot for undeclared which was judd's next show the sort of like the follow-up yeah follow-up and then was going to do my standard hang around thing yeah and i instead got a call to make orange county which had been written by mike white who was a writer on freaks and i knew from there and uh that's what i was making that movie with the with the hanks kid and that movie was popular that was a good movie. It was somewhat popular. Yeah. It was popular enough. And then you start making movies.

So now you're making movies? Well, I was always sort of bouncing back and forth. Which is not a bad place to be. I continued to do sort of both things a little bit. And after Orange County, there was a little period of figuring out the next thing. And then I ended up writing scripts that didn't totally pan out and stuff. And then I wrote a movie called The TV Set that's like about the television business. I saw that.

I saw that one. Did you? It's like a satire. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, kind of. Yeah. The inspiration for it, somewhat counterintuitively maybe,

had been watching the sort of unraveling of John Kerry in the presidential campaign, which felt like this very acute case of the crapification of everything where some really worthwhile guy just sort of gets chipped away at by this process and you know a very well funded process of

character assassination a little bit yeah the character assassination and you know the screwiness of that and somehow from that frustration I started writing about this other thing that I knew much more you know, the screwiness of that. And somehow from that frustration, I started writing about this other thing

that I knew much more closely. And we originally intended that to maybe be like an improvised movie, possibly, but then ended up just writing it and put it together, very small. But then you did Walk Hard, which is a big movie. Then I did Walk Hard with Judd. he was producing and he brought you in um he well i had had that idea he had called me up and um because part of judd's sort of genius is that at exactly the moment when he could first sort of anticipate

what was about to happen with him and he really did sort of anticipate it in a way that I've never quite seen anyone do which is right when uh when 40 year old virgin was coming out he called his friend sort of and said if you've got anything you can think of let's get a bunch of stuff going basically and we were um we had remained close in the time since freaks right and um and one night you know partly in response to all of the likeopics, there had been a few of these kind of big, very important, elegantly made biopics that always sort of feature these, like a staggering performance at the center of it.

Yeah, yeah. But have sort of this very, the kind of like trappings of the important biography sort of movie. Right, right. I had this idea to make a fake one, sort of like in a Ben Stiller show-esque, with a lot of sort of filmic veracity,

that it would be this kind of crazy, over-the-top journey biopic about a fictional musician who, you know, goes through everything all the way to 11, all of them combined every musical style. And also, you know, I, I,

I love music and I am, a lot of my friends are musicians and my wife is a musician. There's an original score on that, right? Original soundtrack. Yeah. It had, you know,

where we tracked 40 original songs with john riley played the character dewey cox john singing the songs and we spent like i mean something like eight months writing these songs and working with songwriters who a lot of whom were friends of mine you feel it it's a big fun movie it's definitely like no group of people has ever worked harder for such an unbelievably silly idea, kind of. And it was this years-long process. And John was the perfect person to do it because he can really sing and he's just like an amazing actor.

So he could do it. Right. And could actually be cast in a movie like the ones we were kind of parodying, you know. Yeah, exactly, sure. And just put everything he had into it. So it was like we all really kind of like left it on the floor in the most insane way for this ridiculous movie. And it was like this really fun couple of years.

And it got a rollout like one of those. You know, all the promotion for it. I mean, maybe it may have bit us in the ass a little bit, but we definitely were very into it. And Judd was. You satirized what you were doing, the thing you were making fun of all the way through. Yes, exactly.

Promotionally and every other way. All the way, the ads, the trailers. Judd somehow got them to do like a parody of an Oscar campaign for John and stuff. So it was like, you know, it would be like him running down the street in a diaper. It was just like looking just overwrought and dramatic kind of. He's a good sport with comedy.

Oh, yeah. He was awesome, you know. Yeah. So was that like the high point of the fun you've had in show business? It was right up there. I don't know if anything's ever been more fun than that. I've had some really fun ones, but that was a really fun movie to make. but that was a really fun movie to make.

And again, like with, you know, this didn't really work commercially, but it was this sort of crazy thing. And then as soon as it doesn't, you kind of look at each other and you're like, well, of course it didn't. I remember like my wife said at the time, like, what'd you think was going to happen?

It was like the weirdest, you know. What do you mean what'd you think was going to happen? Then everybody weirdest you know what do you mean what you think was gonna happen that everybody would like it yeah you think everybody's gonna like you know and it's one of these movies that like people return to and we hear about and we all still hear about it and also like rock stars end up seeing it on the bus and we end up hearing about that which is great too like a wide array of people that relate to it you know and we'll approach john various places it's called movie yeah it's like its own little thing you know did bad teacher do all right yeah it did good it was it was a did well and it was a one that we um had you know it was just a really funny script that these guys lee eisenberg, Jane Sibnicki had written. And I thought, again, I mean, that's sort of the inverse thing where I just thought this was a really fun little movie that you could do.

I just thought it was a really funny script. And then, you know, and kind of weird and dark. And then it ended up being this kind of commercial movie, you know, like a summer comedy. That's good. Yeah, it was great. Good experience for you? It was a great experience. It was fun with them.

It was the first time I'd worked with Cameron, and that was a great, great thing. And Jason was in it, too? And Jason was in it. And it was the first time that we had worked together in the time, you know, since Freaks. Freaks. I mean, we'd remained in touch and were're friends and sweet guy really good guy just one of the best and then you do some more tv and then you do uh the sex tape movie which was jason as well how'd that do didn't do so great got our ass kicked on that one you never know man that's the

thing it's like it you can get your ass kicked on any given day you know but you seem to be like is it because it seems to me the ones you had a great deal of personal investment in which would be you know zero effect tv set and walk hard yeah that you know you you you appreciate what they were and you're able to put it into context and the other ones are sort of like jobs that either go one way or the other. You know, I get fully immersed.

But writing something and directing it. It's different, yeah, totally. Writing it and directing it. But you seem to fare pretty well with it. It doesn't seem like you're too beat up by the degrees of variation in the success of these movies or TV shows. Is it because you are able to sort of frame it as part of the job? I think that it's, you know, I... Or are you hiding something from me? Do you go home and yell at the wall? I mean, when you get the, when you, you know, when a movie comes out, it's either kind of like you made it through and you can be happy about that.

Or you feel like it's like you got in a car accident. And I've had that happen a few times, you know. I've had both things and I've had it with the TV shows too where it's like something can sort of catch for whatever reason right and maybe not and you don't really have that much control over it right and when it doesn't go the way you want it to you feel it much more than you do when it goes well right you know yeah um if you continue if you keep enough stuff going and you're then hopefully you're able to continue doing the work, which is the main thing. I definitely, like, feel it when it's hard, you know, and can get knocked down.

Yeah. But I do feel like, you know, there's sort of a basic perspective that you try to keep in mind. Is this something you learned from your father? I think so. I think it's partly something that I learned from my father, although he has taken his hits as well. That's what I mean. How does he handle it? He can get down, and I think part

of it is you see that, and so you know that it's there. It's so much time invested in these things. Yeah. You know, then you also just have a little bit of a... I mean, it sounds. You know, then you also just have a little bit of a... I mean, it sounds trite, right, maybe, but it's just... You're lucky to do it, and I think that... So that stuck with you.

Yeah, a little bit. And, you know, it did. It did. I try to hang on to that. You know, when I was making my first movie, as I was in the middle of, I guess I'm allowed to say this, but as I was in the middle of making my first movie,

he's talked about it, my brother got very sick. And he had Hodgkin's disease, which is, you know, they always say, like, the most treatable. That's the cancer you want. Which was still, you know, shake you to your bone kind of terrifying at the time. Yeah. And it was right while I was, like like in pre-production on Make Zero Effect. And there was something about that I really do feel that has truly stuck with me, which is, you know, the best, most exciting phone call you ever get could be separated by 10 minutes from the most terrifying phone call you ever get that will make everything else in your world seem incredibly small. That your brother has cancer.

Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, he was then treated and he's, you know, now I knock wood every time I talk about it, but it's been a long time that he's been healthy. And. You guys are close. and we're really close yeah and i think that it i mean we're really close like we talk all the time you know and i think that um you need to have access to the party that remembers that a little bit perspective yeah you know because you uh you can get wound up in this and the work is like you say it's you know you can get you can get lost in it a little bit and it's a lot of time and it's a lot of energy and you can take stuff personally but you do have to sort of keep some

access to just you know what's important sense of scale yeah scale and what's important and you know it sounds like you know your family's tight yeah and you know you're sense of scale. Scale and what's important. And, you know, it sounds like, you know, your family's tight. Yeah. And, you know, you're making a living. You're doing all right. That's exactly right.

And the main thing is continuing to do the work, which I love. You know, it doesn't mean that I don't have, I can be tough on myself about what I'm working on sometimes. And, you know,

like it's been too long since I've made a movie. It's been, no, not exactly like it's beneath me, but like, it's like, what am I doing? Am I swinging hard enough?

Kind of, you know what I mean? Sure. Like, am I, am I, when you're doing a lot of TV. Yeah.

Of a certain kind. You can feel it a little bit. You're like, when am I going to write a movie? Yeah. You feel like, and then, you know,

you can get all the way down the road on a movie and go like, what am I doing here? Is this the right thing? Am I going to be out of TV jobs if I stay? You can have some kind of massive insecurity about whatever it is that you're working on. Sure. You know, and, but yeah, I mean, you know, I can, so I can, I'm certainly go through all of that, you know, process about sort of neurotic process about the work. But I do love doing it.

And I'm, you know, you try to keep in touch with that, I guess. And, you know, the TV stuff gives you a great opportunity to continue to hone various skills, which I really love, and work with incredibly funny people. It's interesting that you are able to do both, and you've done big budget movies, and you continue to work as a TV director, and then go do a big budget movie, whether it fails well or not, that eventually jake when the moment comes yeah when you've got the idea exactly it's gonna maybe it's gonna just fucking knock it out of the park you're exactly you're gonna be so on top of that shit yeah maybe so i mean you definitely

know that like when you um one big thing and this goes back to the freaks thing is like you just never know what you're going to decide to do one day that's going to end up affecting the next many years of your life and i've had this experience with television a lot where you find some major collaboration that you that i would put up there with anything you know um and it's like that's where i that's where i met judd that's where i met seagull you know uh liz mary whether i work with on new girl it's we're years into that now and that's like a great thing that you know has has had a lot of different um you know she kind of has helped me out on other stuff yeah you just never know where these things are headed you know and you um yep so it's it's i i take it all for

try to figure there's usually something good in there okay well the question are you working on a movie a little bit yeah i'm trying i mean right now i'm in deep on these shows though for the fall yeah jesus you got the grinder and you've got the it's potentially a 60 episode fresh off the boat right

so you're in for TV for a little while for this year I'm in deep yeah you know focused kinda yeah I try to

keep it all in your head yeah but do you do do you make notes sort of like yeah like okay this is a scene I continue to write a little.

You've got the framework of the film in your head, and just like a scene will pop out sometimes or what? Or more like an idea, and then the framework is like the last thing to fall into place sort of. All right. Well, I mean, well, fucking good luck with the work. Hey, man, thank you. It's good to talk to you.

It's great to talk to you. Can I say one thing to you? Yeah. Thank you. It's good to talk to you. It's great to talk to you. Can I say one thing to you? Yeah.

I think you are the best talker to people going. Thank you. It's true. I mean it. I will tell you honestly, I've had this commute for years, and there was this moment two years into it where I started listening to your show a lot. Yeah. And it was like a great moment. Oh, good.

Yeah. It was like a thing where it was like, and it's partly because you've talked to everybody and you've talked to them great, but there's just this kind of humanity to the whole thing. You get to something with people that makes everybody feel human and highlights the connectedness of people in a way that I really do appreciate and admire. And I love the show. Oh, thank you so much. How do you feel about our conversation? You all right?

Oh, yeah. It's great. It's all right for you? Yeah, it was great. I'm glad we did it i don't know i don't know how interesting it'll be to whoever but that's not my uh that you know that's not mine to judge you i think i think you will judge it'll be interesting to people who are interested in this i think that like i think the journey is is always interesting especially when you you know what's interesting to me about talking to somebody like you is,

you know, sort of, that a lot of times people in show business or people outside of show business make these assumptions about families

who continue to work in show business generationally. And the truth of the matter is a lot of times it's no different than any other job. Yeah.

That, you know, you grow up in something and your father or your brother or your mother, whatever, they work in this thing and you look at it and you learn it. And despite whatever level anyone operates on them, I think what was interesting about talking to you

is that, you know, you look at your father's track record and there were some hits and misses, but he's a very thoughtful, you know, screenwriter and he's high-minded and he takes risks. Yeah. And then to sort of learn, and he takes risks. Yeah. And then to sort of learn about your evolution and growing up in that and how he had an effect on you

and seeing your ability to sort of move through your own processes is pretty amazing. And then on top of it all, your dad's like back in the Star Wars game. Yeah. And it's sort of exactly what you're talking about. So whether you know it or not, It's like a Star Wars game. Yeah.

And it's sort of exactly what you're talking about. So whether you know it or not, your weird kind of practical optimism about being open to collaborating and new experiences and not becoming cynical about your own career in any way, despite whether you love what you're doing or not on the level of the actual product. Yeah. You know, is a testament to working hard and having a good point of view about it. Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, I usually love it for enough time to do it fully. No, you don't seem like someone who hates what you're doing. No, never.

Never. I'm never working on anything I hate. I think that I do have probably something I got from him and probably something that you relate to on some level, I'd imagine, which is a sense of you hope to be building some larger thing. Look, I'm 100% in support of the day Jake breaks out. I'm with you on that. I'll be here for you when it happens. I mean, even the little stuff breaks out. I'm with you on that. I'll be here for you when it happens. I mean, even the little stuff, though.

It's like you're building a body of work. You have to look at it like that. You think of it like what you're worried about on any given day will fit into some puzzle of your life. Of course. It's all the experience of doing the work is going to add. There's nothing you can take away from unless you shut down and turn part of yourself off. That part of you that you talk about that I can hear right underneath your throat,

that where you're sort of like, something's going to do the thing. I got to do another thing thing. I gotta do another thing soon. I love that I'm like completely transparent. Again, you sit with enough of that. What was sitting directly beneath the president's throat? Why am I doing this?

Good to talk to you, man. Great talking to you, man. Sweet guy. Good talk. Has a career in show business. That's a real career in show business right there, people. Go to WTFpod.com. Get that Howl app for Android and everything else. Get in there and register to win a thing.

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Uber Eats. Get almost almost anything. Order now. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category.

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