WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 644 - John Mayall / Dan Pashman

Episode Date: October 7, 2015

Blues legend John Mayall founded one of the most influential rock bands of the 20th century. John talks with Marc about ushering musicians like Eric Clapton, Peter Green, and John McVie through his band, giving birth to Fleetwood Mac, and using music to get himself through the Korean War. Plus, Dan Pashman, host of The Sporkful podcast, stops by to argue with Marc about cereal. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com. Calgary is a city built by innovators. Innovation is in the city's DNA. And it's with this pedigree that bright minds and future thinking problem solvers are tackling some of the world's greatest challenges from right here in Calgary.

From cleaner energy, safe and secure food, efficient movement of goods and people, and better health solutions, Calgary's visionaries are turning heads around the globe, across all sectors, each and every day. Calgary's on the right path forward. Take a closer look how at calgaryeconomicdevelopment.com. Lock the gates! all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fucking ears what the fucksters what the fuckabillies what's going on this is mark maron this is wtf this is my podcast welcome to it what have i got to tell you a couple things first of all john mayall is on the show today and I don't know how many of you know who he is but John Mayall and the Blues Breakers were a very important band

not not just in John's own right but the fact that a lot of people started in that brand the Blues Breakers people like Eric Clapton perhaps you know him people like john mcvie mick fleetwood peter green peter green come on but anyways i got the opportunity to talk to john mayall and i took it so john came over to my house and we uh we talked about the old days we talked about the blues and we talked a bit about peter green because as some of you know i'm a bit obsessed with Peter Green. Also on today's show, Mr. Dan Pashman. Dan hosts the Sporkful podcast and the Cooking Channel web series, You're Eating It Wrong. Both of these are good outlets for Pashman's specific type of obsessive compulsive bullshit, which I enjoy. Dan and I go back a bit.

We met at Air America back in the day when I started that job, and he was an associate producer, and he had a crew cut, and I couldn't understand why he had a crew cut, and he scratches his head a lot when he's thinking, and he has a very distinct laugh that can go either way depending on your mood in terms of how you receive it and the intensity of whether you're receiving joy or wow that's annoying but Dan will be on and I know the cat's out of the bag I understand that I understand that I got a big mouth I get it I want you people to know things but I'm sometimes I shouldn't say things do you know what I'm talking about? Are any of you aware of what I'm talking about? Yes.

Yes, I have put it out into the world. But in my mind, I was just in conversation. I did an event where I was interviewed for the New Yorker Fest, and I was asked by a member of the audience about Lorne Michaels, and I said, yes, I'm going to be interviewing Lorne Michaels. Now, we've all been waiting for this. On some some level no one's been waiting for it more than me but on another level in my mind it even if it didn't happen it would be fine that would honor the story for those of you who frame it in the Moby Dick narrative that I should not get the white whale. But the truth is I did get him.

I did. I don't really want to go into details about what was said. You'll hear it. Eventually you will hear it. The thing is, here's the problem. We've always joked that if, if, if I got to interview Lorne, it would probably be the last episode of the show. That would be the last episode of the show. That would be the last episode of the show.

Okay. So now we have it and, and we're not really sure what's next. Do you understand? I got sweep on this people and I'm really not sure. Yeah. I, I don't know when it's going to air and,

and I don't know what's going to happen after it does. Okay. I'll keep you posted and I'm sorry know what's going to happen after it does. Okay? I'll keep you posted. And I'm sorry if I left you in the dark about it. I should have just kept it to myself until, you know, we had all our ducks in a row. But I got giddy. And I spilled the beans. I'm in New York still.

Just across the way, one of the charming things about new york there is a a group of men uh you know at work uh doing what inspired the show stomp unfortunately this particular version of that unscripted stomp begins at about seven in the morning there's a lot of hammers none are are in rhythm. There seems to be no real context artistically, though they are building a structure. So that's the context. It's got nothing to do with pleasing me as an audience member. And quite honestly, it's disrupting my sleep and making me unhappy. But given that it's not a performance piece, there's nothing I can really do to complain about it, nor can I move. I could ask for another room, but this is New York, and this is what you have to put up with,

even at the nice places. How many panes of glass can you use? I think the most important thing that's happened to me this trip, aside from talking to Lorne Michaels, was probably having a realization about my anger. First night here, there was some racket going on. We had been up a long bit of time. We'd been up traveling from four in the morning from North Carolina and got here and had to do a couple of things and wanted to nap. This is the first room that I was given here at the hotel. And the room adjacent, I don't know what was going on, but the door was slamming. I would say on a 20 to 30 second interval.

I'd laid down to rest. I closed my eyes. And this door just started fucking slamming every minute or two. Like 12, 15 times times until I got up. I was in my boxers. I got up in that sort of like in, you know, the action you take when you've been festering for about 15, 20 minutes where it's almost involuntary, where your body just becomes the movement of a full body fist moving towards the door.

I pop open the door. I was in my boxers. I vaguely heard Sarah wake up as well and say, your penis, because I think that maybe she was concerned that I was not paying attention to whether it was out or in. I was not planning on going into the hall. But I opened the door and I was right in front of me was a bellman. And the other door was open.

And I looked in the room and I could see just vaguely a woman doing something up to things. There's a lot of busyness is what I heard. And I said, hey, can you take it easy with the door, please? And then the bellman looked at me and said, sorry. And I slammed my door. And then I looked down and I did not notice that my penis was out. So then I laid down and I went into a fantasy. I don't have as many revenge fantasies as I used to. It used to be a fairly favorite pastime of mine that happened without much provocation. You know, I would sort of go through my mind and think, you know, who could I imagine in a situation where they got theirs?

Yeah, where I teach them a lesson. Huh? Some of those things, you know, I was surprisingly adept at martial arts. Occasionally I'd be armed. But would never use it, you know, just in a threatening way. I apologize for even thinking that. But it might be true. Occasionally I would watch them or set up a situation where they would be

gloriously hoisted onto their own petard i was active man i was active with the revenge fantasies because it made me feel better but then they all went away it just was not something my brain did anymore until i was laying in bed after i'd said, could you please take it easy with the door? And the fucking door slammed even harder. So then this is what went through my head. All right. That was a spiteful slam of the door in response to my completely polite yet slightly aggravated

request that they stop that shit. And then I pictured, all right, there's a woman in there, but that was definitely a big dude, a bro of a certain size, slamming that door to show me that he didn't give a fuck what I had to say. So in my mind, I fucking put my pants on. No reason to start shit in your boxers if you're going to follow through with that shit because if something happens, especially to to you and you go down you're gonna be in your boxers and you're not gonna have any control of the penis being in or out if you're out dig so in my mind i fucking pound on the door a large bro uh muscular younger than

me with a lot of fucking attitude i'm not not going to say Italian, but the hints of that maybe doesn't matter. Just trying to paint a picture. I think just a general bro, non nationality specific bro. And I'm like, dude, what's a, what's the fucking problem?

And he's like, yeah, what is your fucking problem? And I said, well, what's with the fucking door? And he goes, you got a fucking problem? And I said, well, what's with the fucking door? And he goes, you got a fucking problem.

And he pushes me. And then I waited out. Cause in that moment in the fantasy, I realized that, uh, we're grown ass men. And if he hits me, there's legal repercussions.

So this is the weird turn. The fantasy took my revenge fantasy where I kick guy's ass is that he pushes me. I said, fuck you. This is bullshit. You can't fucking slam a door. You got to have respect for other people. And then I just stand there. I stand him off, and he fucking pops me in the face right in the nose.

This is in the fantasy. I get hit in the face hard and my nose is bleeding and I get some satisfaction out of this because I look at him and go, I hope you have some fucking money saved up because you're going to pay for this in court. And then I sued him for a physical assault,

a grown man, and I think in the settlement I made about $250, 250 000 which i didn't even want wasn't the money it was the principle this fucker can't just go hitting me or hitting people out in the world right and then like you know then he learns his lesson that's a long way to go and and to be honest with you a little cowardly and i was ashamed of myself but on the the other the alternative fantasy was he goes yeah i got a lot of fucking money i got so much money and then he just throws a few hundred on the floor

there's some money and i stand there with a bloody nose i'm like that's not enough so all this time i'm holding my bloody nose and in my mind i'm victorious you know it's like i'm gonna fucking i'll show you i'm gonna kick your ass in a a few months. And then for as long as it takes after that to sell this with legal fees and maybe an out of court thing, like it was so protracted, this revenge fantasy. And so seemingly somewhat cowardly that it was at that moment that I realized like, you know, maybe, maybe I've outgrown this anger. You know, clearly my revenge fantasies outgrown this anger. You know, clearly my revenge fantasies don't have the teeth they used to. And if I'm really fantasizing about

not only getting in an altercation, but getting a bloody nose and then, you know, taking the time to, you know, anywhere from three months to a number of years to win a lawsuit against a fucking ape man for a physical assault that maybe it's time to just process the anger differently and by the way i i forgot to mention that that what was going on it was a bride next door who was getting married that night so there was a lot of in and out i imagine with bridesmaids and mothers and people tending to the bride, making sure everything, you know, dresses and whatnot, hair, shoes, support and all that stuff. So what I did do,

as opposed to get hit by a non-existent groom who was going to defend his bride-to-be, you know, from the irritating, neurotic, angry old Jew next door, middle-aged Jew. Let's go middle-aged Jew. What I did instead was I called down and I said, look, you got to get me out of here. You got to get me out of here, please.

And they moved us. They moved us to another room. And I felt good because I felt bad about the initial bit of anger I had, though I hope that if the bride did see me, that the boxers were hilarious and that she was like, oh, what's that guy's problem? And as we were changing rooms, we saw the mother of the bride in the hallway eating a bagel and cream cheese, holding a plate. And she said, sorry, it's a big wedding tonight. I'm like, well, I'm going to another room and I want you to have a good time. And she said, oh, we'll have a good time.

And see, it was exactly that attitude that I knew was, had to be avoided. The persistence of, you know, it's her day and no one's gonna fuck with it. You know, I didn't wanna conflict with that because frankly, even at my most empathetic in that moment, I didn't give a fuck about her day, and I did the right thing, and I got out of it,

and I hope she had a great, great wedding. So now Dan Pashman, yes, he's been on the show before. You may have heard him here, or maybe you go all the way back to when, as I said, we were on Air America, or maybe you've listened to the Sporkful. He was out in L.A., and he's not there very often. I asked him to come over to the garage so we could argue about some things, some food and whatever, because that's what he does with me. That's what we do, me and Pashman. Because that's what he does with me. That's what we do, me and Pashman.

And I think this may be the beginning of a short series where I argue with old friends over bullshit. Would that be okay? So I bring you now from the Sporkful and from the Cooking Channel web series, You're Eating It Wrong. This is me and Dan Pashman. But you're not a car guy. What kind of car do you drive, Dan Pashman?

We have a Honda CR-V. So you have a CR-V It's a small SUV. For your family. You have how many children? Two kids. Are you done? Yes. How old are they? Two and four and a half. So you need that. You need to have how many children? Two kids. You had two. Are you done? Yes. Okay. How old are they?

Two and four and a half. So you need that. You need to have that size car. You need the space. Yeah. And anyway, it was a gift from my in-laws. When they got a new car, they gave us their old one. So you're like never out of college.

It's like, what else do you need? All right. So what have you been doing? I mean, the last time I talked to you, what did we cover? We talked about my book a little bit. What is the book, The Sporkful? How's that book selling? It sold pretty well.

It's over? Yeah, I mean, it's still there. You can go buy it. But now I'm focusing mostly on my podcast. The Sporkful. Yeah, The Sporkful podcast. What's the tagline to it? We say it's not for foodies

it's for eaters yeah that's fucking clever you guys were pretty happy when he came up with that yeah that's pretty good people identify with it yeah

but you were like was that a brain brainstorming session well it's funny was it the final hour before you had to post the first episode 4.30 in the morning you're sweating you got a beard right what are we gonna do what are we gonna say

how do we explain it it's funny because i came up with like five catchphrases and that was not one of them and it actually like the very first couple episodes of the sporkful no catchphrase the catchphrase the original catchphrase the first couple episodes was where sacred cows get grilled. Ah, yeah. Which I actually liked more, but like very early on. But to me, that's like an NPR nuance. You think so? It's just too clever. Like, you know, it's not for foodies, it's for eaters.

That's a working class, the proletariat. Yeah, you're right. Yeah, maybe you keep the podcast at it, and for your NPR show, you add the secret cow that gets grilled. But then the NPR vegetarians would be after me. Well, you're never going to please those people. Okay, so we talked about the book. We talked about wings.

We talked a lot about wings. Oh, yeah, you were wrong on that. No, I've been, no. Time and history is on my side on that. History? What history? The history of wings. Of how to prepare them properly.

But now that I'm here, I want to... We don't need to keep talking about wings, Mark. No, no. It's over. I cajoled you into having coffee and you looked at my device. Yeah, I want to consult here. And you said, is that a pour over before i start really before i start arguing with you and telling you the new ways in which you're wrong yeah i've been using an aero press yeah i didn't on your recommendation yeah

for about five years but to me for me as the reason the aero press it's fine it's good people love it but it's a it's sort of an ordeal. And if you're a fucking coffee addict, like sometimes I'll do a triple espresso and make a pot of coffee and drink that fucking pot of coffee. So what? Every time I've got to do an AeroPress, I got to go through the whole thing with the little circles. I can't fucking. You know what I mean? You get the whole pot.

Right. I'm not saying it's not a great thing, but it's not for addicts. I love how there's a new uh recurring theme in your show about sort of like bargain hunting and shopping i've noticed is there well i i i love how um uh air travel has become a recurring theme in recent episodes of wtf oh with the president well no but like like you talked about vince gilligan yeah there was another guy that you talked about like i did what airline do airline do you fly? It had nothing to do with whatever you were talking about. I think there should be a spinoff WTF podcast, just like Mark's Deal of the Week.

What the fucking thing is is that people, like I fucking hate Delta. But then there's people that are like, I love Delta. It's all I fly. And I'm like, what's wrong with you? But it's the same with cell phone providers. I mean, like after a certain point, you develop a loyalty to them for whatever reason you get enough perks to where you can you know fly comfortably hopefully at least have the shot at that i mean all these airlines have shitty planes it's really how they put lipstick on their pig of a plane you know you

don't know how old those fucking planes are you know when you're in a new one and you're like this should be good right but sometimes you get on those planes you can actually see the how many times it's had a paint job by the door and you're like what is should be good. Right. But sometimes you get on those planes, you can actually see how many times it's had a paint job by the door. And you're like, what? Is this like from 1960 at this point? But yeah, it's a loyalty thing. For some reason, I'm very loyal to shit. Yeah.

Why? What do you fly? I usually go whatever's cheapest. See, that's a bad move. Yeah. But I mean, I am partial to like JetBlue and Virgin America. Yeah, but JetBlue, that's sort of over, isn't it? I mean, the blue chips and the no class.

I mean, you get free Wi-Fi. You do? You get free Wi-Fi. You get nice big screens that you can watch. Are they that big? They're pretty good size. I don't know. I mean.

I don't know. It felt to me that JetBlue at some point, I was at a JetBlue terminal. I think it was at LaGuardia, and I'm like, this is over. Because it just felt like a fucking bus station. Yeah. Don't they all feel like that? No. Which ones do you like better?

Well, I don't fly... I'm not going to fly Spirit Air or Jazz or whatever the fuck those are. I don't even know what's going on over there. You walk by those things, and it's sort of like, is there no luggage requirement? It looks like this person is moving onto the plane. So... It's sort of like, is there no luggage requirement? It looks like this person is moving onto the plane. So, but no, I guess like Southwest, you would think, but oddly Southwest, their system of groupings, very orderly.

And people are like, it's actually an interesting way to almost be democratic in a way. You're like on this line. They're like, what are you? I'm like, I'm 37. Like, okay, I'm 38. I'm behind you. And I'm like, okay, that was nice. We out as people right and and uh i've had no bad experience

with southwest for flying out of burbank i just haven't flown jet blue in a while virgin's pretty good aside from the nightclub vibe right yeah that i agree that the music in the bathroom the lighting the lighting yeah too much yeah and i like the system where you just you order things on your screen they're the only ones that do that. Yeah. I like that. That is good. You just kind of push or poke around and then someone comes. But whatever. So you fly whatever. I just think

I think that this is a whole spin-off new category for you. It's a new vertical in the Mariner Empire. I think it's only relative to the fact that I've been traveling a shitload in the last four months. Alright, so the coffee. How's that coffee? It is very good. You like it? I do like it.

I want to ask you a question about the president's coffee, which is still on display here. It was tea. It was tea. Oh. So did he bring it in himself? No, it was a woman who worked with the motorcade, I guess the White House caterers or chefs or whoever, food department, I don't know what they're called, travels with him and brings it in before he gets in. So he has an advanced team that delivers his food for him.

Well, it was one woman, but yeah, there's a lot of people here. And she came and she set up his tea- And a water. In a paper cup with a presidential seal and a water and a napkin. Yeah. Oh, see, what's interesting to me is I bet part of that is a security thing. Probably. It's like a food taster. Right. They don't want you to me is a bit part of that is a security thing. Probably. It's like a food taster.

Right. They don't want you to give him coffee and God knows what could be in it. No, they don't even want to go in the house, really. Right. Or the bathroom even. That's why I can't be president is because I'd always have to go to the bathroom. Oh, you think that's the only reason? Is that the?

Thank God we know. Because, yeah. That's what's holding me back. I knew this would be a tough decision for you to make. I was really on the fence. Yeah, you're at home just driving your wife crazy like, should I run? Yeah. I mean, there was at least maybe one tweet asking me.

Yeah. All right. Was there tea left in the cup? Yeah, there was. And did you drink it? No. You didn't drink the president's tea? I i didn't i didn't even think to do that that's like the closest thing to like sleeping in his bed i touched him he's right there you're sitting your ass is on his seat well that's exciting that is exciting for me but drinking i don't know i don't i would have

drank his tea like everyone sees that cup now his dna is on it i'm like what are you gonna do with that like i don't know why all people's brains work. I don't know. I just feel like to drink, to like, I mean like that's... I talked to him for an hour. Look, that's very special. Do you feel like we need to swap spit? I would drink it out of the hole that he drank it out of

and I could say, well, what? That me and the president... It's weird. What am I going to drink his tea for? It's probably just tea. So you just poured it out? Yeah. I just wanted the cup. want to have a little vial next to it a little with the tea in it that was what was in that would be fucking what's already weird that i have a domed glass cup it's actually brilliant it's not weird at all i'm definitely gonna take a picture of it okay so with the coffee thing so you got the air press going but you like this coffee so there's no argument there

this is not pour over maybe it's pour over but there's a place in New York that does this cone where you have the cone and then you put the grounds in it and you weigh it out properly and then you put the water

and you leave it in there for four minutes and then you put your releases on top of a glass I can't I have no patience for those but you can sit there with that AeroPress

which is like loading a syringe I don't really like the AeroPress I'm honestly like I'm kind of lazy with my home coffee game. But you don't use pods. Those places that are so pretentious. I mean, you parodied it. You pour over.

Yeah, now I'm doing it at home. On your IFC show. I know. And you go to these places, all the guys behind that kind of look like the rejected members of Mumford and Sons or something. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I can't. Well, the thing is, though, the weird thing is if you get a good pull and it's a good

shot, like, and it's at a high-end place and the coffee like there is a variation to it there there is a you know you can't but you know ultimately it's just you know what grade of drug you want to use and what kind of dealers do you want to deal with yeah like if i go to new york the first fucking thing i do when i get off the plane is go to that dunkin donuts right there i'll go to the fucking dunkin donuts becauseuts because I'm like, this stuff is garbage, but it's like fucking crack, and I'll drink it because it's just like, it's in my heart, it's in my mind.

Like, I'm like, I gotta get a Dunkin' Donuts coffee, then I'll drink the, I drink way too much coffee still. Don't you remember on Air America, I used to load up on that Dunkin' Donuts, sometimes you'd get a carton of it? Totally, that was always, it was always kind of,

there was a bell curve with your mental state and the show. I used to get M&Ms. I used to have to like, I would sugar and caffeinate myself into mania to get started. Yeah. I don't even know what that shit sounds like now. It probably sounds a little like I am now because I'm a little like that now. But it's a higher register.

Yeah. Your voice is in a higher register. Well, I was just completely fueled by panic and a lack of understanding of what I was talking about. Otherwise you're completely fueled by panic and a lack of understanding of what I was talking about. I was going to tell you, I mean, I was at your marination show in Huntington, which was a great show. We did all right. I thought you did a great job. Thanks, buddy. I really enjoyed it.

I loved the new material. I did have to take issue with your statement on stage that cocoa pebblesbbles are better than Fruity Pebbles? Yeah. How is that? What? Well, like Cocoa Pebbles, like there's a hundred chocolate cereals. Cocoa Pebbles and Cocoa Krispies are almost identical. Right, but they're different than Cocoa Puffs.

Oh, very different. Yes. Yes. That's a whole other category. There's a lot of chocolatey cereals. There are a few fruity cereals, but I feel like fruity pebbles are more, are unique.

Yeah, but it doesn't matter. For me, it was like, it didn't make sense. Those colors weren't normal. Even if the cocoa pebbles are food colored, I didn't pay that much attention to that when I was a kid,

but it seemed like there was something organic about the idea of chocolate being brown and the texture of them. The texture of cocoa pebbles, they weren't like Rice Krispies. They were a little flatter and they had a little glaze to them. Yeah. And they were chocolatey. And then the Fruity Pebbles were like, there was that horrible yellow and like a pink and maybe what, a blue?

Like, I don't even remember what the colors were, but there's nothing natural about it. It looks weird. The milk is just pink when you get done with it. And the fruitiness of it, texturally, they were the same, but I was not on board for the colors. I did not colors i did not i did not i did i didn't like it but you know some cereals that i'd never got when i was a kid because they were unruly uh to me in the bowl uh like sugar pops the corn kernel cereals they're a

little like you know they didn't really change texture at all with the milk and they were just sort of like they'd float in the milk differently so you like you like that transformation to take place in the bowl a little bit sometimes i mean i don't always like it i yeah but actually i do i'll even let like bran flakes if they like if raisin bran gets mushy i'm good i'm good with it have frosted flakes mushy frosted flakes i'm good i'm okay with that yeah yeah i'm not hung up on the crispiness of it remember um but buckwheat uh but what would they call golden grams oh yeah those are good those were good those are like almost like this crossover like you know adulthood cereal yeah like golden grams i felt a little more sophisticated than the fruity cereals lucky

charms my brother ate lucky charms he ate fruity pebbles and both of those were bullshit to me captain crunch quisp no good i was in qu of that. With the little space guy on it? You never heard of Quake and Quisp? I don't think so. Huh? Why? Well, what's your point? You're going to defend Fruity Pebbles on what grounds?

Well, I'll grant you that the issue of the color is sort of a matter of taste. Like, if you just don't like things that look like they're artificially colored, you know, that's valid. I just love, I happen to love Fruity Pebbles. I think that's a great cereal. What? I love the pebble shape. I like cereals that get, that turn soggy quickly. I just realized this is what they did to me and my brother, Quisp and Quake.

They pitted us against each other. Pebbles did and Quisp and Quake. Like Quisp had the little goofy space dude with the propeller head and Quake was this like a giant He-Man guy. So you think cereal, it had a big influence on your relationship with your brother well no it just gave you choices and you had to you know you had to be different you know what i mean like he's gonna do that thing and i don't think he

fared any better for you know having quisp and fruity pebbles i don't know if those were the right decisions to make how's he doing he's all right whatever he's going through though we're gonna have to hang it on the cereal. Why? What are your kids eating? What are you making them eat? Muesli? No, I mean, my wife gives them Lucky Charms, which drives me crazy because that's so nasty.

The marshmallows and the cereal, they're awful marshmallows. It's full of chemicals and food coloring and all that. I don't give my kids Fruity Pebbles now. I just love, like, to me, surface area to volume ratio is a huge issue in cereals what is yeah what does that fucking mean do you remember that from science class the surface area who you're talking to do i remember science class i'll say it again i'll say it again slower explain it to no not slower actually illustrate it for me so you have the surface area which is the amount of surface that anything has. Of the cereal. Right. Okay. Yeah. Every little individual piece. Yeah.

I get it. Yeah. So for instance, like a ball. You don't have to give me a lesson. Okay. So there's a ratio called surface area to volume ratio. Right. The ratio of how much area is exposed to air in relation to the total volume.

Okay. Okay. The size of the thing. So it's a density thing in a way. Yeah. Roughly. Roughly. And so, I mean, scientists would probably say that's not the right word, but yes, we'll

go with it. So you're saying that like some things are like- The higher- The higher the surface area. In relation to volume. So the more surface area exposed in relation to volume, the faster the cereal will absorb milk and the quicker it will become soggy. Right.

And so- In a hurry? Well- I guess it's in the morning. You're in the morning. But you and I are kind of on the same page here. Okay. We like the cereals that-

Okay. Break down a little bit. Break down a little bit. Get soft. Have you ever tried putting the cereal in, put the milk in, let it sit, let it get a little soggy? Sure. Then add more of the same cereal so that you have two different textures of the same cereal.

Do you have a job? This is my job. Okay. You understand understand it's a miracle i'm actually at work right now okay okay all right well like now what i eat cereal wise yeah i do brand buds because i'm old which are they're the best i think they are the most powerful brand cereal because the buds actually have psyllium in them so you know know, it'll really fucking do the job. Then I have Trader Joe's brand flakes which I'll use with fruit. Brand buds is just

sort of like medicine. You're like, I'm going to do these now. Right. But the brand flakes are you can use them as flakes and then for the treat cereal, puffins.

Now, Barbara's puffins are sort of like a Captain Crunch style. They're pillows, I guess they would call them. They're pillows but they need to sit. They really need, I guess they would call them. They're pillows.

But they need to sit. They really need to get soft. Do you get regular puffins or do you get peanut butter puffins? No, regular. Peanut butter ones are weird. They don't have the same consistency. They're bigger and they're more closer to a Captain Crunch vibe. They're okay.

And then there's cinnamon ones too. And every time I buy those by accident, I'm pissed. No, I like regular ones. But I have not. Perhaps I put more puffins in after the other ones were soggy, but I don't think it was an intention to mix up the textures. I wouldn't do it with puffins because those already take a long time to turn soggy. So if you're going to put them both

like, you're going to wait a while and then like, you don't want puffins right out of the box into the milk because they're going to be too hard. Right. But I imagine some people are like, that's the only way to eat them. This is a preference point. Are you going to call them wrong. Right. But I imagine some people are like, that's the only way to eat them. This is a preference point. Yeah. And you're going to call them wrong? I suppose you're right.

Do you use regular milk, almond milk, soy milk, vanilla almond milk, coconut milk? I use whole milk, regular whole milk. Whole milk, like vitamin D milk, no percentages? That's right. What do you want to die? It's like pouring fat on your cereal. You don't have a problem with that? Why, you do that for the kids, for their bones?

Yeah, something like that all right fine see for me it's like what i do is i take puffins and then put a little pure stevia on top just a little and then i put unsweetened vanilla almond milk on it that's my process so you sweeten the almond milk with stevia kind of i put it on the cereal a very little bit why not just get sweetened almond milk because sometimes not sweetened with stevia i don't want sugar in my almond milk. I don't know. It's just the way I work it. And then with Stevia,

you can make it really fucking sweet sometimes. And that has like no calories? No. And it's a mystery. It's like a root. It's from a root. I think it's processed like cocaine because the good stuff,

the pure stuff is like just sort of China white. But then I recently got a Stevia that was like Mexican brown heroin, because it was a brown color and didn't taste as good, and it had sort of a texture to it. Right. So I imagine that's the intermediary between the two. You know, that stuff got smuggled in then. Yeah, yeah. Someone put Stevia right in their butt.

But it's probably manufactured here, but that doesn't mean some hippies aren't traveling with it in their butt. To make it really sort of down to earth. I like the process. I like the China white Stevia over the Mexican brown Stevia. What about fruit in your cereal? Yeah, I'll do fruit. No strawberries. I'm anti-strawberry.

Don't trust the size of them. Like, you know, when you see a strawberry that's grown in the wild and it's sort of small and nice and delicate and powerful and it has good flavor, and then you see the ones that come in those plastic containers that are huge. Yeah, it's crazy. Why the fuck does that happen? The same way they fucked up tomatoes.

I think they're doing it to strawberries. I like blueberries, sometimes blackberries if they're sweet. Banana I'll do occasionally, but that's sort of a chore. And the banana's got to be perfect. Can't have it. It can't be any slightly unripened banana. I'll just go nuts and throw it. This is why I have a job, Mark.

Yeah, well, I'm helping you. You are, but do you see? Like, you know, one of my favorite reactions that I get to this Workful podcast is when people say, I never knew I had such strong opinions about that. Right. And you have strong opinions about these things. Sure, well, you get into a groove, you know? I haven't tried to, like, where do you stand on the mueslis and the oatmeal?

Because I'll do that occasionally, but it's not regular. You can't eat oatmeal in the heat because it's just like you sweat. I mean, I like, you're talking like hot muesli? I don't know. The muesli, I don't quite understand because you get it in a traditional way. It's usually mixed with yogurt. It's usually like mixed in.

It's like granola. A clotted cream or something. You know, like you get it and it's like, it's a density to it. It's not just put milk over it. I feel like, well, I love to combine. I almost never just have a bowl of one kind of cereal. You're a cereal mixer? I've got a couple of cereals and then I like sort of an X

factor. I love to sprinkle some grape nuts on top or a muesli or something like that. I used to like grape nuts. No more. I don't do them anymore. Oh no, why not? I don't know. Just stop doing it. Because I do the bran buds because I think they're effective. If I want to mix cereals, usually what I'll be doing is I'll get bran flakes and bran buds. Like if I've been on the road for a week and I've been eating shitty, I'm like, that's my cleanse.

I'll do a whole day of that. It's called the cereal cleanse. This is another spinoff to go with the travel show. Basically, it's called Mark Gets Old. Yeah. That's happening naturally. That's all being integrated. Right, right.

There's no reason for a spin-off there you go that's the dynamic the marin pashman dynamic all right so uh what happens now i'll tell you you know what time it is? It's blues legend, John Mayall. One of the first albums I remember sort of having was John Mayall. Looking Back, I believe, was the title of that record. It had a picture of him with a six gun hanging onto a train in a cowboy outfit. And on that record, there was a song called Mr. James on there, which turned me on to Elmore James, which changed my life.

John Mayall changed my life, and I had inherited the record from my aunt and uncle's collection. But as I grew older and I looked more into John Mayall, I've got several Blues Breakers records, and a lot of people stopped by man a lot of people were in that band for a certain amount of time and there were some pretty

monumental guitar players, bass players drummers but anyways I was thrilled to have the opportunity to talk to him. So this is me and John Mayall. He's got a new record out right now he puts out a lot of records still folks if you like the blues. His new album is Find a Way to Care, and that's out now. So this is me and John Mayall. It's hockey season, and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well,

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exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. John Mayall. That's you. That's me, yes. I was pretty excited to have you come in because I think some of your records changed my life.

Wow, what a responsibility I have. Yeah, it's a big responsibility. Well, it's not a bad responsibility, but I think when I was a kid, I inherited some collection of records, and Looking Back was in it, your record Looking Back. Oh, yeah, yeah. So, you know, when I heard the song Mr. James, some collection of records yeah and looking back was in it your record looking back oh yeah yeah

so you know when i heard the song mr james i didn't know anything about the blues really and i thought well who the hell's mr james so then i had to go figure out elmore james and that it sort of started this whole process with me uh of of learning about the blues and getting involved with the blues in terms of listening and stuff so So thank you for that. That's amazing. What a story. When did you start playing? Well, I started playing when I was about 10 or 11, you know, because my father had, he was a semi-professional guitar player, so he did have guitars around the house.

Oh, really? But he also, I mean, the action was so high, I couldn't do anything about that. But he had ukulele, and I started on the ukulele with four strings there. Sure. So listening to records by the Mills brothers and, you know, several people. You know, so my grounding started there, I suppose. And then as soon as I discovered boogie-woogieogie piano which my father wasn't interested in at all

you know I veered off from his stuff. Well who was that Fats Waller or Pinetop who'd you listen to? Yeah it was Albert Hammonds, Pete Johnson, Mead Lux Lewis was the instigators of that and then you know one thing led to another led to Jimmy Yancey. You know, the thing is about music, once you find a starting point of somebody you like, and then you go exploring who was their influences and who were their contemporaries and things like that, and you begin your voyage of discovery. That's what happened with me and you. That's exactly what I had with Looking Back. Exactly.

Now, did your dad play out? Did he have a combo or was he a, you know, did he have a band? Who? Your father Looking Back. Exactly. Now, did your dad play out? Did he have a combo, or was he a, you know, did he have a band? Who? Your father? No. No. He played occasional dances, you know.

Oh, yeah? In what part of England did you grow up in? Well, near Manchester. Yeah, so. Northern England. And was there live music around that you would go to when you were younger? Yes. When I was probably 17 or 18, the traditional jazz was the thing that most bands were playing.

So I used to go to the Saturday nights when the Saints jazz band were playing. It was a Manchester band. So they were playing. That was the Manchester band. So they were a great Dixieland band, but the pianist in there was a boogie-woogie enthusiast. So he and I got to talking, and he introduced me to several people who were the more obscure players. So you had that sit- down with the piano player?

Yeah. You approached him? Yeah. I actually went to his house, which was a very big deal. Really? Yeah. Because he was like a hero, right? And he had this 78 with a wonderful label I'd never seen before.

And the artist was Cripple Clarence Lofton, which I thought the name alone was great. It was great. Like, I want to know what that guy's up to. Another incredible player. How old were you when that happened? It's before I went in the army.

In your teens? Yeah, late teens. That's a big deal when you're a kid and that musician you respect has you over and shows you the records. He had American records. That's the weird thing that because i've talked to uh who have i talked to in here i've talked i recently talked to richard thompson and i talked to uh lemmy from motorhead i've talked to a few british musicians but there was not unlike uh you know punk rock

in the in the 70s and 80s here we you couldn't like american records were sort of like wow where did you get it like you know you got one of those it was hard to get them huh well um people talk about that all the time but uh they they kind of overlook the fact that uh that you know the british record companies did have quite a large selection much larger than people would think but you had to know what you were looking for you know right but there was you know all uh josh white lead belly uh blind lemon jefferson all these things were were out on 78 on on british labels so they were there you just had it there yeah well you know the people that you you mainly talk to all seem to be 10 years younger than i had so a little bit they're starting later, you know. And, you know, by the time they came along

seeking these things out, I already had, you know, gone through all that. Well, it's sort of interesting because, like, it wasn't necessarily popular music, so you really had to sort of find your way. I mean, like, I have to assume that when you were 16 or 17, you know, Blind Lemon Jefferson was not, like, you know, everybody wasn't going,

you got to get the new Blind Lemon Jefferson release. No, absolutely not, no. But people went their own way and built up their own record collections, but it wasn't something that was all that shared. It wasn't a shared experience so much as somebody who was a fanatic about a certain style of music. Like a secret society. If it was shared, there was a fanatic about a certain style of music. Like a secret society.

Like if it was shared, there was a couple of other fanatics where you'd sit around going like, oh, my God, listen to that. Yeah. Well, you know, I played my record collection to friends who anybody was interested in it, you know. Yeah, sure. So you went into the Army? Yeah.

For how long? Three years. And what was going on? Anything? the army yeah for how long three years and what what was going on anything well uh the the the when i went to korea oh you did yeah they fortunately the the day i got my posting uh to korea it was the day when they they started the armistice oh good so that was very good it was dodged a bullet literally yeah it was two months to get over there on the boat. Oh, my God.

So by the time I got there, it was well settled down into nothing going on. Thank God transportation wasn't as effective as it is today. It was great, really. To be on the boat? Well, the boat was all right. I got myself out out a lot of drill by you know pointing myself out as a musician oh yeah so i had so i had the guitar and uh i played in the ship's band which got me out of out of the oh yeah yeah the the the band

was uh just me on guitar and a very bristly Scotsman playing accordion. And he was the boss. And I can't remember. I think there's probably one other person maybe playing drums. I don't know. So what kind of boy were you playing? Polka music? No, it was horrible.

But it got you through. Yeah, that's right. It was a better deal than being stuck downstairs and doing drills. Yeah, so you play harp, and you play guitar, and you play downstairs and doing drills. Yeah, so you play harp and you play guitar and you play keyboards and piano and maybe a little bass, no bass? No, not bass, because you don't really have strong fingers for that.

You get blisters very easily. Yeah, it's hard to hold those down. But when did you pick up, you started on guitar and then you started getting into piano? Yeah, piano, when I went to junior art school when I was 14, they had a piano there, which I was able to make a start on. Can you read music?

No. It's weird. I can't either. You don't need to, I guess. You just got a feel for it. Yeah. I just plotted wrong, getting the left hand boogie-woogie thing going, and then eventually was able to put the right hand to it.

Takes a while, huh? To work it. Yeah. Especially if you don't have a piano. Yeah. The new record, Find a Way to Care, is really a lot of organ on it. Yeah. Sounds great.

You sound great. The amazing thing about being you, and for me anyways, about being somewhat of a purist about it, is that there's a consistency to the music, that, you know, your commitment to the style, you know, I can feel your changes and what you explore, but like when you land on it, I mean, you're one of the few guys really that has spent a lifetime writing original blues songs. I mean, you know, there's not, you know, I noticed that from the beginning, that a lot of guys that started with the blues, they did

the covers, and then they sort of of moved into a different kind of music. But you've been writing blues songs for 50 years or so. Yeah. The thing about the blues, the first thing I learned about it, is that these guys are singing about events in their own life. Right. Their experiences they're putting into music and words. So that was important to me if I'm going to write songs,

that it should be something that was about my life. Yeah, and as long as you stay somewhat challenged and mildly unhappy... Well, you don't have to be. You can be joyous. Whatever emotions that are common to all people, and I think that's where people can identify when they hear it this thing oh that happened to me yeah I think that's what the I think the blues is about it's about elevating it's about getting over

whatever that is the struggles of life it's not depressing music so healing yeah yeah and okay so you where'd you pick up the harp when did that happen for you that was that was kind of later harmonica was, I don't even remember how that started, but, you know, I fooled around with it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you just got the hang of it? Yeah. And, you know, just like everybody else,

you start off trying to copy the people that you have heard. I think it was probably Sonny Terry was one of the first ones who took my fancy. And then that led, of course, to Sonny Boy Williamson, who, for me, is the king. Yeah, Sonny Terry's like more of a folk blues, and Sonny Boy Williamson is a real kind of boogie-woogie rock. Yeah, but there's a crossover there because, you know, Sonny Boy played acoustic too,

unlike Little Walter and all the electrified blues players. Right, he started with acoustic. So when I worked with Sonny Boy, he taught me a few things, mainly what not to do. When did you work with him? In 1964, 1964, 1964, 1965. So you're like 30, 31? Yeah. and you already had the blues breakers or before i had the band yeah i had the blues breakers yeah so let's talk about the beginning of that because it's interesting like look i'm sort of a peter green freak a little bit and and you know

the difference because i think i think eric clapton never played better than with you i just believe that that's just my thought. Yeah, a lot of people say that. Is that true? They do? Yeah, yeah. So, but the transition, like the difference between someone like Peter Green, because, you know, we were talking about the blues as being, you know,

sort of a release and a joyful music in a way. Like, you know, Peter Green was, his guitar playing is fucking heartbreaking sometimes, you know? Yeah. It's heavy. But, uh, when did you start the band and who was in the original lineup and how'd that

come about? Um, well, I, I had a, a, a band called the blues syndicate, uh,

in, in Manchester, you know, when, when Cyril Davis and Alexis corner started the blues thing off in London, Cyril Davis. Yeah. The harmonica player. He had a a club right or a residence at a club where he well alexis and and cyril alexis corner yeah they got together and found um a place where they could play and it grew very quickly i think from uh from their enthusiasm. And what was that, 63?

62, early 62, I think, yeah. And who were the blues bands around? Who was coming around? Well, there was nobody except those two at that time. But, you know, it led to all these, one of the Rolling Stones, for instance, the Yardbirds. There are so many bounds.

It's happened very, very suddenly. So here's me up in Manchester. These guys are playing stuff I've played all my life. And I thought, well, this is an opportunity for me to put my oar into the water. for me to put my oar into the water. So I met Alexis, and he encouraged me to come down to London to try things out, which I did for one weekend

and got three gigs there with the band that I had in Manchester. Okay, so you go down to London, you get a few gigs, it's you and those guys. Yeah, and then the Manchester guys didn't want to move down to London and give up their Manchester lifestyle and their jobs so I you know went down

on my own and Alexis introduced me to enough musicians so that we could get started so so the musicians that were around the blues scene because I talked to keith richards too about it and he was and cyril had an impact on them as well um so the the guys who were around were people like the stones and were and did you all just hang out together i mean that's really the the question because it seemed like a very specific scene and then it sort of blew up right yeah london is know, there were so many different clubs that sprang up. They had usually been trad jazz venues. Right. But, you know, then it took over.

The blues stuff took over. And then where did this sort of like the pop music guys fit in? Where did the Beatles fit into this? Well, they don't really, but, you know, they did. I don't really but they you know they did um i don't know they they they kind of spearheaded the the idea that regular guys could put a band together uh-huh and and make original music right right so they were they were all part of that uh explosion of youth right right But not blues guys. No, not as such.

It's sort of funny to me that, like, because you're, you know, a full-on blues guy, a purist, and, you know, when I talked to Keith, they really set out to be, like, a real blues band as well. There was this idea of authenticity that needed to be honored. Did you feel that? Yeah, that was a lot of people's minds when it first started. And then when they all got into it, they kind of found their own identity

and veered off into their own individual directions, which could have been rock and roll, it could have been anything, whatever individuality required. And then the late 60s kind of blew it all up. Yeah, it was a very exciting time. We were working eight or nine gigs a week, you know, so there was plenty of work there. So how did you go about auditioning someone?

Because I imagine then after the Manchester guy left, those guys went back home. So did you go through an auditioning process? How did you meet the original band? How did you meet Eric? And was it Eric in the first band? No, he was in it about two years later from the first band. No, I just, you know, whoever was in the band,

I think John McVie was the first one that I used on bass. And you just met him hanging around? No, he wasn't hanging around. It was Cyril Davis's bass player lived in the same area of London that John lived in. So he wasn't available, so he told me to look up John McVie, who was just starting to play. So I tried John, and John worked out fine. play you know so i tried john and john worked out fine first of all when i remember john coming into the room and saying what's a 12 bar you know so he didn't so i was really starting at the beginning but uh so you had to teach him indirectly yeah he knew what he was doing but he didn't know

exactly yeah so it's very much like that but you know i didn't really audition people other than they you know have them show up at the gig if i had and i'd test them out that way and bernie watson was the guitar player and he was really good he came from uh cyril davis's band originally so so cyril davis was he that that band was the source band for everybody. Yeah, that one. Alexis and Cyril were together initially. Uh-huh. And then they had

a difference of opinion. Cyril wanted to be more purist and Alexis wanted to use horns. Oh, really? Yeah, more jazz influence. So they split up. So that mushroomed into two bands right there.

Oh, that's interesting. So the horns were for a jazz influence, not for an R&B influence, because there were guys like J.B. Lenoir. They used horns. Yeah, I know, but Cyril didn't hang with that. No horns? He just wanted the basic combo, like two guitars? Yeah, basic combo, plus Cyril had three girl singers.

Didn't have a problem with that? Ray Lips. Oh, really? He didn't want horns, but he would have girl singers. Didn't have a problem with that. Ray Lips. Oh, really? He didn't want horns, but he would have girl singers. We understand where his priorities were. So when you started playing with the first band, what was your sort of manifesto in terms of purist or not purist? You had certain covers that you did, and it sort of grew out of that you know covers and and stuff that i wrote myself

but you were the band leader yeah and that that sort of like has been your place through all the records really yeah it's a great place to be for me because you know you know what kind of music you want so you know what kind of musicians you want so you know when how to pick them so people ask me all the time how how i managed to pick all these place people who've become you know internationally famous over the years yeah and you know like do you audition them and i didn't really i didn't ever do auditions they sit in, I just knew of them and knew they'd be the right ones. Yeah? Where did you first see, like, like Ansley Dunbar?

On drums? I really can't remember. Because he turned out to be sort of a wizard, you know, beyond the blues. Yeah. Yeah, he got to be so busy in a good way, but it put Peter Green off

and it didn't sit well with him, all the jazzy drumming. Oh, really? Yeah, so it wasn't in Peter's direction. So I had to ask Ainsley. Time was up. And then we got Mick Fleetwood in at Peter's request. So that's how that came about, Mick Fleetwood joining.

Okay. It's very complicated, all this, to explain, isn't it? Kind of. But I don't think enough people know about certain things. As time goes on, it's all available now. I mean, so easily. You can just get on your computer. And people can, you know, it's all available now.

I mean, like so easily. You can just get on your computer. Yeah, I know. That all it really takes now to, even just to mention these names for somebody who's listening to this, and they're like, Ansley who? And then they go look it up, and they look you up, and they're like, holy shit. Like, there's a hundred records here. Yeah.

It's sort of a fascinating time, you know. And a lot of people, there's just so much coming in that they don't respect the history of it. I know. Well, you know, for us to have access to all these things in the early days, you know, you had to go out and buy a 78 recorder. And, you know, you really had to work at it. You know, there wasn't the great availability of the music that everybody takes for granted now. And I think that the attention you had to pay for it,

it paid to it, was almost like the reverence of it like if you had that one record you're like i got it very much and you'd go home and you'd listen to it like you know a hundred times yeah and just kind of pound it into your heart yeah now now eric clapton when like i have no sense of because like it's clear like you listen to those records you guys are a band you know it's not you know he wasn't standing out front of me he did his part you did uh you sang and did all your parts but uh but did you when you when you were playing with him initially did you have a sense that he was somewhat of a uh like beyond brilliant blues player well anybody that i've ever hired i always have that feeling that they're all very special people who have their

own identity so it's it's it's the same for anybody who I've ever hired you know uh-huh I hear things in in people that that uh that reach me emotionally oh that's the connection yeah and so I know right off the bat and when you guys were working on stuff, like when you were working on the first Blues Breakers record, or the one where you started working with Eric, how much of a collaboration in terms of styles? Because he was a Freddie King guy, and you've got your influences. Did you have those kind of conversations

where it's sort of like, can we do a Freddie thing? Are you into that? Not really. I think I probably introduced Eric to Freddie King. You did? Probably. Because in the early days, Eric lived so far out of town that I had a spare room at my house. So he stayed at my house at the beginning.

How old was he like 20 uh yeah 20 19 or 20 and so that's probably where he got it huh from your records yeah because you know he had all my records available to him so he made a lot of uh discoveries we used to listen to you know yeah together and you know he'd opened up a whole world for him you know so you were like the uh you were the wizard i guess so you're the guy did you do that with all the guys like did you do that with like uh drummers and bass players as well like with john mcv i don't know not really nothing that i. You know, it's always been very casual. I know who I want, and it works out because they fit in.

And then why did Eric leave ultimately? Oh, he was restless, you know, and the fact that Jack Bruce was in my band at the same time that Eric was, the two of them got together and they were just on fire with each other, and then ginger baker crept in there and talked to him he'd worked with jack a lot yeah and they'd become great enemies and uh and together they talked eric into you know making this power trio so that was it off they went so so where where did the Yardbirds fit in? That was before Eric?

Yeah, before me. Yeah, yeah. Oh, so that's how Cream started. Ginger Baker stole your guitar player and your bass player. Yeah, well, Jack and Ginger were at war with each other right from the beginning. So they'd worked with Graham Bond for a couple of torturous years. But they were with each other, yet they still played together.

Yeah. Yeah. They fought together and they played together. I mean, that's why Cream didn't last very long. It just exploded. And then what, Blind Faith happened after that, I guess? Yeah. But you were just going, like, when that happened, when they went off.

When Eric and Jack left, I brought John McVie back and he promised to not drink so much and be a good boy. So I needed a guitar player. So, you know, we didn't have any time off.

I was working gigs seven nights a week. You just had to keep moving. So I just had to, you know, keep auditioning guitar players on the gigs, you know. Let them all nights a week. You just had to keep moving. So I just had to keep auditioning guitar players on the gigs, let them all have a go. And Peter Green was one of those in the audience, and he was bold enough to grab me and say, why are you using these guys?

I'm much better than they are. So he kept coming to gigs and dissing them and saying he should have a go. So, you know, I said, okay, you come in and have a do it. And it was great. Yeah. It only lasted a week. Then Eric came back. Oh, it lasted a week?

Yeah. And then Eric came back? Eric came back. And I promised Eric if he came back from Greece and his madcap adventures. With Cream? No, before Cream. Oh oh oh okay so this is before he left yeah he went to Greece yeah some harebrained idea you don't even know what it was but uh all right so so was there tension between Peter and uh Eric no no I don't think they really knew each other. That's interesting.

Because, like, did you feel like when you had a guitar player, you know, you had what you were doing, but they obviously, the tone of the band changed with Peter, right? In terms of how he played. It's a lot more, like, minor. It's heavy-hearted stuff. It's to do with a musician's individuality. You know, The music varies,

and it comes to reflect the personality of whoever's playing it. So even though you might be playing the same songs with a new guitar player or a new whatever, it will change the whole dynamic of the thing. Sure. I always like to choose musicians, whatever their instruments are, for what they can bring to the table.

Do you keep in touch with these guys? I wouldn't know how to because I don't have their phone numbers or anything. In the case of Eric, I have no idea how anybody would get in touch with him. When was the last time you saw him? You never show up at festivals together or anything? He seems to be back into the blues kind of full on.

Well, he hasn't given me a call to invite me on it, but one of these days. That's sort of sad to me. And then Peter is, you know, a lost soul, so I don't know. Mick Taylor is also not very available he's he's a bit he's a bit of a wanderer and nobody really knows what he's up to yeah he showed up with the stones for a while a little while you

know and that's what ever happened I don't know so Mick Mick Taylor came after Peter yeah and you and they're different players Mick Taylor's like yeah it's very interesting yeah the way these guys play. Yeah. I always make sure that if I choose somebody, I've chosen them for the way they play. And so that's the part that they're there for, to do their own take on it.

And how did that make your music evolve? You know, did you learn from these guys? Did you find that playing with these guys pushed you to different places? It inevitably does. Whoever you're playing with, you know, you are playing collectively, so you're inspiring each other and enjoying the personalities. Now, I saw a documentary about Peter Green, that BBC documentary

called Man of the World, which was sort of heartbreaking. And he claims that the way Fleetwood Mac started is you got them a studio. He said that you got him some studio time. Yeah, it was a birthday present

for him, yeah. Really? Yeah. It was his birthday. I said, you can have the afternoon at the studio. And then you lost

your whole band. Yeah, yeah. It doesn't matter. No, I know, I know. If a person

has got some other direction in mind, you know, it's pointless to slog away at it because, you know, their heart and their direction is, you know that's pointless to slog away at it because you know that

their heart and their direction is you know they want to do something else and you feel that way still I guess yeah it's just the evolution of the music yeah so let's talk about when you you came stateside I mean because that that seemed like a pretty rich time you know you were you were here in the late 60s right first to 68 you just you came temporarily or were you were here in the late 60s right first yeah 68 you just you came temporarily or did you move here in 68 well you know america was the land of dreams for me it was where all the music came from and everything else yeah part of culture you know so so once i saw california that was that was uh for me, the start of me saying,

oh, I've got to come and live here. And you were sort of on the pulse of what was happening here musically because you moved to a pretty exciting, you moved here, right, to Hollywood, to Laurel Canyon. Yeah, yeah. And that was its own thing, man. Yeah, I mean, I didn't move for anything

except this is the weather and this is the climate and the whole way of life. This is where I want to be. So it only took me less than a year to, having first come to America in January, you know, I think by the end of the year, I'd pretty much got it sorted out to come and live in L.A. And that was in the late 60s. So, like, what was it? I imagine that being in the blue circuit and seeing what was happening in live in LA. And that was in the late 60s. So what was it? I imagine that being in the blues circuit and seeing what was happening in England in 68.

So the Stones and the Beatles were already blowing up. And you had success with your first few albums. And you decided to move here because you thought you could do better in the music business? No, it wasn't for music reasons at all. It was just climate? Climate, yeah, way of life. And what was Laurel Canyon like in 68?

It was, you know, obviously there were less houses there, so it was less built up, but it was, you know, it was a very perfect place for me. Good community. I always get the feeling that your neighbors were always interesting. Well, Laurel Canyon is a much larger area than people think. There's many different roads that wind there around there. And I can honestly say that I never met any fellow musicians,

named musicians, who lived anywhere near me. Oh, really? No. Did you build friendships with some over time? Well, only in the course of, you know, when you're playing shows together and you meet various people. Zappa lived up there.

Yeah. Well, Frank was the one who I stayed at his house for my summer vacation. Where'd you meet Frank? In New York, actually. Yeah? Yeah. I think maybe I met him in Europe first.

Frank's gigs were always very different from each other. He had such a wide repertoire and imagination. And how was it? Because it seems so different then. I think he is sort of blues-based in there uh yeah he was very very strong his his interests were very much in blues but they were also uh in in so many other different forms of music and what you were you were just open-minded to that you were you were sort of not you liked what he was doing you know when he was a great guy and very very uh very creative yeah it must have been

wild to see those shows at that time yeah but you know it's just very very exciting i think luckily they are available to people oh yeah it seems like the the zappa catalog is well cataloged this is huge as well like well tended to yes well you've got it you've got you're not you're no slouch with the records man yeah i counted them up today it's 67 67 original albums and there's countless others which are compilations and things like that so you put out like at least one record a year really that's the way it seems to have worked out although the it just depends on on who the record company was and uh initially with with deca records you know there was um the beginning of the the so-called blues uh explosion you know we did several albums in a short time together and

it seems that like once you moved here that it was undeniable that there was a different tone to the music and to what was going on here musically in the late 60s, right? So, I mean, you sort of, I don't think you departed from being a blues purist, but you did do different types of records once you got here, right? Well, I also did that before, you know, I mean, I did the Bear Wise album. I had the horn section and using jazz players. Right. And then the Turning Point album was with no drums.

So they're all different explorations in my career and things that I've wanted to try. Which is the one where it's just two of you, or you on most of the, almost like a solo record. Oh, that's the blues alone. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Where I played all the instruments except drums. And you just overdubbed it?

Yeah, double tracking. Was that more interesting than, did you prefer that to working with a band? It was an experiment. It was for De for deca deca records had a a low budget label which they put on various things that they didn't have too much just fork out any money for so you know they offered me a chance of just doing something solo it wouldn't cost them anything so you just took them took them up on it. Yeah. So I thought, well, that's good.

It wouldn't affect my regular record release schedule. And working with jazz guys, how was that different for you? I don't know how to explain it. Do you like it? These things, yeah. I mean, whoever I pick is going to be stimulating to me, whether it's jazz, whether it's rock and roll, whatever it is. So, here's a question. I think it's a tricky

question, though. Are you happy with the way it's unfolded for you? Yeah, it's pretty amazing. I mean, it's amazing that you work and tour a lot. I've never had a year off or any kind of time off.

I've always worked. And you've stayed here in Los Angeles area for this whole time? Yeah, I've lived here more years than I've lived in England. Now, when you tour, like what, because I know you've done some live records, and like where do you find,

like because early on, even with the blues, it seems that that in europe there's a there's a a more intense following for for certain types of music do you find that when you were when when when you were starting out with the blues where were your big countries where did you find the most success well there's so much work in england that you know that there was no time to go anywhere else but i think we went to scandinavia first as the country we went to um it just grew gradually and who do you find go to the shows now when you come are they are they um the the original core like are they older people yeah

you know you get people who are not necessarily there at the beginning but you know have been following for a long time and they've got uh kids who've uh been brainwashed into listening to this music you know by the parents you know and then they come you know the kids are now teenagers and an elder you know and. It's a mixture always. And you have kids, right? Yeah, I've got six and six grandchildren. Really? Yeah.

Are they all around? Are any of them in England? Are they all here? No, they're all... They've got two here. And did any of them go into the music business? Yeah. My eldest one, Gaz,

Gaz's Rockin' Blues go into the music business yeah my eldest one gas uh guys is rocking blues has uh been a a mainstay on the london uh blues scene for rock rock and roll scene more uh for 20 years or more you know so he's a big deal in in london and when do you when when you go to london do you ever sit in with him well he did not don't really have time. Oh, yeah? But I have done, yeah. Yeah? And what's he play?

He plays keyboard. Oh, yeah? Yeah. Did you show him everything? I don't know. You don't know? You never sat down with him when he was a little kid? No, I don't do things like that.

It's just around. The music's there in the house. If you want it, take it. Yeah, there you go. Well, let's talk about the new record. How do you approach it? Because it seems to me the production is really clean and it's solid and you can hear everything

and your keyboards are right there, your voice sounds great. It doesn't seem like any of your energy or focus has diminished at all in the entire career. It's sort of fascinating. I guess you never did the drugs. No, I never did i never never smoked a joint or anything so oh really i i did my share of alcohol yeah yeah but i haven't done that for about 15 years or more how do you feel about this record i love it i think it's you know the the band that I have now is the best one I've ever had.

We've been together over five years now, and it doesn't seem like anything at all. Who's in it? Greg Arzab is the bass player from Chicago. Uh-huh. And his friend Jay Davenport, also from Chicago, is on drums. And then I have Rocky Athos on guitar from Texas. yeah was he he's a Texas blues player yeah hey who did you how'd you find him was he just out here well no he sat in with us when buddy Whittington was the guitar player and so he and buddy were good friends and I just always remembered it when I

finished with the Blues Breakers you know i thought i thought of rocky would be the next guy so he's been around a long time yeah now are you like uh you know it's weird because i had this moment where i made the mistake of uh you know telling uh keith richards that uh yeah i really haven't seen the stones live since bill left you know because in my mind you know that was the band and you come from a different you know you know your bands evolve you evolve but in my mind the stones needed bill wyman and he was like he was like oh that was 25 years ago i got a great bass player now like he obviously he loves bill wyman but it's about the band you have yeah exactly and uh and i imagine like even

when he walked into my house and i had those first few records, you had that moment, it seemed, where you're like, oh, yeah, those records. I guess if you're the guy doing it and you keep growing as an artist, you're not going to get hung up on those first three records for your whole life, like some people are. It was a long time ago, let's face it. It is. I guess it was a long time ago, but I guess because of the vortex. Yeah, exactly.

But do you feel that way, that basically the band you have is the best band that you're in? Yeah, absolutely. There's no question about it. You know, it's not just the music. What holds it together is the friendships and the camaraderie you have when you're traveling all around all the time. You know, it has to be right because out of that comes the music. Right, and I imagine that because of those first few records

and even the ones previous to moving here, this is a pretty short time. Yeah, very short. Because you're playing with these guys, you said, on this record for five years already, and that's probably a pretty long run for a band that you've had. Yeah. Yeah? already and that's probably a pretty long run for a band that you've had uh yeah yeah the the price

of that was was with buddy whittington it was uh 12 to 15 years and before that coco montoya and walter trout was 10 years yeah so so those are real relationships yeah so those are like in in retrospect you know the the guys that went on to become these rock heroes or whatever. They run less than a year. Yeah, it's flash. That's amazing. So does it annoy you to talk about it? No, it's fascinating, really.

People can't get over it, really. Well, I have to assume that on some level, somewhere in you. It's good stuff. Yeah, but it's hard to get over like peter green isn't it and yeah like even for you like i mean it like well the thing is it's all there you know thanks to records all these things that captured yeah yeah all the time and uh and in the so do you feel that the how is age affected how you approach the music do you find that you've gotten deeper with your lyrics?

Do you find that you've gotten a little more open-hearted? How does it work like that? It's freer. It comes more naturally now, I think, with the right people. We all encourage each other, and there's no moodies or things that can get in the way of the creativity. Right, the egos are less yeah we're all we're out there to have a good time and share it with the audience and you're all old pros yeah yeah well when how's the touring schedule looking you're

gonna head out soon when do you head out on this record we leave on uh on thursday well i gotta say the new record uh find a way to care is great and it was a joy listening to it it was amazing talking to you good yeah we'll be hitting the road and we i think we've got um two and a half months with three days off wow all the dates are on the website johnmail.com and you feel fit what do you do to take care of yourself you eat well you exercise i get out of bed in the morning and go swim some laps in the pool oh you do that wakes me up oh good oh good all right well you look great you look great and i really appreciate talking to you it was an honor for me well excellent mark that's it. Blues legend John Mayall.

Check some of that new stuff out. Check some of that old stuff out. Check it all out. That mid-period. That early, actually. Those first few records. Yeah, man. And the new record.

Do what you gotta do. Go to WTFpod.com for all your WTFpod needs. Get on the mailing list. Check my schedule. Do what you gotta do. Get some JustCoffee.coop. And to close this show, I'd like to say I feel uncomfortable in my body. I'm exhausted.

And boomer lives. We'll be right back. those. Goal tenders, no. But chicken tenders, yes. Because those are groceries, and we deliver those too. Along with your favorite restaurant food, alcohol, and other everyday essentials. Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis

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