WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 648 - James Taylor

Episode Date: October 21, 2015

Legendary singer-songwriter James Taylor stops by the garage for one of the more surprising conversations Marc can remember. James holds nothing back as he tells Marc about the ups, the downs, the darkness, the light, and everything else he encountered during his storied music career, leading up to his first new album of original music in 13 years. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Lock the gates! Alright, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fucksters? What the fuckadelics? Nice to talk to you. It's Mark Maron.

This is WTF, the podcast that I host out of my garage, which is getting dusty, man. I've been, I don't know what the hell i'm gonna do anyways my guest today james taylor on the nicotine gum brothers kindred spirits this conversation was something beyond anything i expected i i don't i can't even tell you how great i felt after this conversation the garage man i gotta empty it i gotta take it all out and put some of it back in that's a i've been noticing this and don't tell any of the people that are coming over please but uh you know i clean but i don't you know thoroughly clean i've dusted a bit but you know i've been at this in here for what five years going over five years and uh and shit comes and goes in this garage people come and go stacks of things come and go uh i just haven't you know and things get hung up and

it's just i guess the point i'm trying to make you know when you go to a like an old um roadside museum or something and the uh the displays they look a little beat up they look a little dusty i mean there was a time i think where this garage was just um beaming with a sort of you know cluttered intensity and now because uh it needs a thorough cleaning it's sort of like oh there seems to be a a bit of dust on that old uh baby a jar exhibit. Wow, look at that. The presidential cup. Looks like that glass dome can use a bit of a cleaning. Yeah, so already

there's a... Oh, God. See right there. There's just like... And what is that? Mostly skin? Is that what they say dust is? Mostly skin? So like I've got... God knows. I've got a lot of celebrity skin particles on a lot of stuff in here that was a little tip of the hat to uh courtney love i don't think that's where the

title of that uh that album came from but nonetheless i do need to clean it and i've i've i'm gonna get some office space down the street very excited about it not gonna tip it too much but i just i got myself a little office so i can get the fuck out of the house and feel like i'm going to another place to do some work here's the problem and maybe some of you can relate to this if you're self-employed which i am uh heavily self-employed, which I am, heavily self-employed. It's like no matter what I do, my job is here for the most part. I go do stand-up and stuff, but I work in the garage. I come out here.

I interview people. I get a lot of stuff sent to the show. I get records, books, CDs, things. It's like a radio station over here. A lot of unsolicited stuff, a lot of exciting stuff. What you start to realize is that your work you know starts to sort of even out with anything else you have to do in your house like you know i had to go i had to walk down to the shed down there that i moved i moved my little

shed down there to get a pliers to you know to take the uh a brass uh screw thing out of a mic here to record a thing so that is just the same as me doing some writing or me not necessarily interviewing a guest, but preparing to interview a guest. Doing my dishes and getting some writing done have equal status in my brain when you work where you live. So that means when you sit down to work, you don't know whether you're going to prioritize,

like, oh, I got to make a cake for no fucking reason fucking reason the distractions are there but there are also things you have to do so that's the struggle of being uh self-employed so i've uh afforded myself a very reasonable and practical office space and i'm gonna go down to so i can free up my fucking dining room from stacks of books records and cds that got to go through, not complaining. I'm also going to be able to meet people there. And it's very exciting for me to, for once in my life, go, hey, can you meet me at my office? Let's talk at my office.

How's that sound? Try that on. Try that on in your head. But maybe with the office i can you know take the time to uh to fucking thoroughly clean the garage exhibit you know what i'm saying so look we're still going through uh past episodes of wtf here trying to put together the big picture on the uh on on the the myth the legend that is warren mich Warren Michaels as we lead up to my conversation with him. Here's me and Amy Poehler from episode 183.

She actually was able to help me see him in a different light. And even if it didn't stick, she enabled me to see him differently. I know you've told this story, but you- Just one. I've only met him once. I know. And he just was- You hated it. No, I didn't hate it. differently what is it i know you've told this story about you just one i've only met him once

i know he just was you hated it no i didn't hate it he just i think he really just wanted to teach me a lesson i don't know but were you close you were close to doing update right well i mean that was the talk yeah you know but then like i'd heard other versions like you know he was just using me to pressure norm or whatever but he made me jump through a lot of hoops, and it was all very exciting. But I've seen him as I get older. I read that book about the war for late night about the Conan O'Brien thing, and he really is, he appears in there occasionally,

and it's very Buddha-like. He's very set. He's Lorne Michaels, but he seemed more human to me in that book. I see it. I have a very human relationship with him. You know? Yeah.

His relationship, I always had a theory that he brought out a lot of daddy issues in people. For everybody. For everybody. Yeah. And the way you kind of reacted to him, not always, but was sometimes indicative of how you had to deal with your own father. Uh-huh. Because there would be, I would see things that, to me, subjectively, a moment that didn't

trigger me in the same way I saw it trigger other people. Yeah. You know? Yeah. But he is a king of the kingdom. You know, that is a kingdom of which he is king. Yeah. And that doesn't really happen very much anymore

where you get to see a king in his kingdom. Yeah. But... Talking to his subjects. Talking to his subjects, yeah. And he likes it. Yes. And I liked it too.

I liked it. The attention? I liked the attention and I also just found him to be very fair at the end of the day. In the sense of what? I thought he was fair. And again, this is my experience. I know everyone's had many different experiences.

But I found him very fair in his creative decisions. I always thought he was funny and smart and picked things that were funny. He fought for that. I think he's a very loyal person. To people he liked. Yes. Yeah. I mean, Hader told the story about how they were doing this sketch that was kind of weird.

And it was his first big sketch. And he played Vincent Price. And I can't remember what the sketch was. But Hayter was nervous going in to do his Vincent Price. And apparently right before he went on, Lauren said, why now? Which is sort of brilliant, but completely undermining. Yes. Yeah.

They want a terrible lightning here, right? Yeah. And it kind of fucked with him completely. Yeah. Amy and I talked about Warren for about 15 minutes in that episode, and she actually has a really healthy perspective on his role in her life, which I don't really. You can check out that entire episode on Howl Premium.

It's episode 183. So, yeah. I mean, the more we go through this stuff, I could put together an entire series of episodes just on people talking about Lorne at my egging. Did I mention James Taylor is here? Now, look, this is one of those things where we all know James Taylor.lor did i ever think i would talk to james taylor the opportunity came and i'm like james taylor fucking james taylor is james taylor man sweet baby james mudslide swim in the blue horizon those are not little records those are big fucking records and they're part of my childhood like i remember i told him this i think i remember my parents do you remember

the first few records you saw as a kid that your parents had my parents had sweet baby james and i saw the cover of that and i knew that that guy was not necessarily a happy guy i knew that there was something up with that face and i was it sort of was intimidating it was intense i mean the cover of sweet baby james i guess some people were like, oh, look at the sweet man. But I was like, oh, there's something dark in there. And it kind of frightened me on a level that I didn't quite understand. Not unlike the Janis Joplin Pearl cover. She was so cute, so stunning.

And all I knew is she died from heroin. I was like, how could that happen to that cute, stunning person? But James Taylor, I was like, oh, something's going on in there. But somehow or another, James Taylor got sort of kind of pushed aside in the cultural shelf as being James Taylor. And he began to represent, you know, something very specific, but not necessarily something of my generation would be like fucking James Taylor, man. Holy shit. James fucking Taylor. Rock and roll. Not something you hear in that tone.

So I think I became victim to that when I got the opportunity to talk to James. I'm like, yeah, he's got a new record out and it sounds a lot like James Taylor. It's called Before This World. It's available now. It's a pretty classic James Taylor sounding record. But when I was offered the opportunity, I'm like, yeah, of course I'll talk to James Taylor. It's gotta be a story. It's been around a long time. And I'll tell you, man, I was nervous about it because I didn't know if he talked. I didn't know where he was at or who he was. I don't know a lot of times what people sound like or how they handle themselves. So it was sort of a mystery to me, but I was excited about it. And when he showed up, I was out here in the garage and I got a guy working for me part-time. Frank, he comes out, he says, they're here. And I walk in and

this has never happened before. I got a guitar in the living room that I dick around on. I like to have a guitar around for when I'm watching TV and when I just want to play with a record or something. And I walk into the living room and this is the first time this ever happened. James Taylor is just sitting quietly on my couch, plunking away on my guitar, which I love a guy that just can't not play a guitar. I know some people who have guitars are their first influence. It's like, yeah, could you, are your hands clean?

Could you put the guitar down? But me, I'm like, that's a guy that has to play guitar and uh i was i thought it very it was very charming and it gave me a very good sense of him just sort of like just sitting there playing a guitar because there was a guitar to play it's like i'm not gonna talk i'm gonna play guitar and then we come out here and he picks up this old uh beat up k that i have this garbage guitar that you know is is uh that is kind of a great guitar. And he starts playing that. And I was like, this guy cannot not play guitar.

And I like that because that's a relationship that's very important to him. And sadly, because we had such a great conversation, I didn't ask him to play guitar or sing. He didn't bring his guitar, so I just assumed maybe he wasn't into it, but I probably could have asked him, but I tell you, I got lost in this conversation, and I love talking to James Taylor. Now, look, before I go to the interview with James Taylor, I want to tell you about this music you're about to hear. This is by an Australian musician named Gerard Daly. He was at my show in Melbourne and he had such a good time. He wrote this song about it the next morning. I found it very touching. You can check out the song on his SoundCloud page, soundcloud.com slash Gerard M. Daly. That's G-E-R-A-R-D-M-D-A-L-E-Y.

And the song is called One of Those Nights. and the song is called One of Those Nights. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know, we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer.

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FX's Shogun, a new original series, streaming February 27thth exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. Oh my God. James Taylor's here. I have to say that you are the only guy, and I'm happy you did it, that I've had over who plays music that cannot help but pick up a guitar.

Well, it's nice. I used to play a Gibson in the beginning. The 335? Not that one, but, you know, a Gibson guitar. Acoustic, a J50. A J50. That was your first acoustic? It was my second acoustic. My first was a sort of no-name guitar that I bought at Shermer Music in New York City, or more accurately, my folks bought it for me when I hounded them into buying me a guitar.

Was it your first instrument? I had played cello for four years between the ages of 8 and 12. Really? Yeah. Did you have an aptitude for it? No, I wasn't particularly a good cello player. You had to let that go? Well, I picked it up again recently.

I got a cello. it comes in fits and starts. I'll play it for a few months and get some chops back on it and then let it slide again. But no, I switched over to the guitar when I was 12, and for the same reason we all did. Right, because it's a more practical instrument that you can play on your own and still be entertaining to yourself and others. That's right.

And it speaks back to you really quickly. And, you know, it's good for accompanying you. It speaks back to you. That's an interesting way of putting it, that you have an immediate relationship with a guitar and what it can do and what you can do and what you can do to get what you're feeling out through it. That's right. And that's the point with any instrument. That's sort of the magic point at which you can't put it down

when it starts really giving you what you want to hear. It took me a long time to realize that virtuosity is not necessarily relevant to getting what you need to get across. That's a really good point. It's true. I'm a vernacular, like a vocabulary on the guitar that has expanded over time, but that really suits me, you know, as a songwriter. Well, you learned how to finger pick at some point. I mean, you're good at it.

Yeah, I did. I always have finger pick. And did you learn it from somebody? You know, I picked it up from a lot of different people. There used to be this guy named Travis. Yeah. Merle Travis. Yeah. Who had this thing called Travis Picking.

Oh, really? It was sort of a rolling kind of walking bass with your thumb and playing on top of it. And he and an old Elizabeth Cotton, an old blues player from North Carolina. They had this, and a guy named Joseph Spence, who made this fantastic record called Music of the Bahamas. Yeah. Joseph Spence, Elizabeth Cotton, and Merle Travis were the people that inspired me. And, of course, forever, to me, theye Cooter is the epitome of finger-picking. He's sort of a wizard of all sorts.

Yeah, he's like a musicologist or at least something else. I just talked to Keith Richards, and Keith credits Rye with that open five-string tuning that he does. Do you know rye you friends with him i've met him a couple of times he played on uh on the title track to the october road album and uh played beautifully so that was a few albums back it was the last one well it was a few albums back but it was the uh the one before uh this present album before this world october road was the release some sometime i think in in 03 or 02 and it was uh it was the last studio album of original material yeah and when you play with somebody like rye who having respected him over for so many years

and maybe met him once or twice is it just like are you like a kid you know in the studio watching that guy work i have such huge uh respect and admiration for the man that it is a little bit daunting. And he's a great cat and always an enthusiast, but can be a little crusty too. So it's interesting. My buddy owns a record store down around the corner, a used record store. And I don't know if it was this one or the one in New York, but he thinks that Rye Cooter came in, looked through the bins and came up to him and said, how come the Rye Cooter albums are so cheap? My friend said, I don't think he's really caught on yet as a revival artist. he's really caught on yet as a revival artist and so he's if that was him he can be crusty and i think some guys who are certainly some guys who are geniuses that they may not get their

their their due respect wise from the public right might get a little crusty yeah you can't you can't blame them no no but i think uh you know rye is among musicians, he's so universally respected. Oh, yeah. Sure. He's great. Paradise and Lunch transformed me. That album. How did it transform you?

I just played that album all the time, and I just loved what he was doing with the guitar. What year was that? 72. Oh, really? So early on. 71. And what brought you to music initially? Where'd you grow up?

I grew up in Chapel Hill, North Carolina Oh yeah And my brother Alex was, you know, we had a family record collection that was really fantastic My folks used to play that music all the time I can't stress to people how important it is what music you play for your kids Yeah, what'd you get? Man, we got a really wide spectrum of stuff we got uh a lot of broadway you know yeah uh and rogers and hamiston and cole porter and frank lesser but we also got and and uh things like uh the weavers and and uh pete seeger we

we got lead belly my father uh bought lead Belly albums. So you had all that stuff. Lead Belly's important. And then we got a lot of Celtic music. Is that a family tradition? Not so much. It's just what they liked. They were into it. Yeah, they were into it. And there were light classics and jazz. And there was a satirical kind of uh songwriter named um uh lair tom larry tom larry yeah from uh boston from mit yeah and and we played his album all the time too so he got some laughs got some laughs and it also sort of

opened us up to uh you know that kind of uh slightly political or you know socially uh motivated music you know and and how many kids were in your family there were five of us yeah because i know like i went to college in boston i lived in boston i don't know for years so i livingston taylor your brother was sort of ever present always present in the New England area, playing music. And your other sibs, did they play? Yeah, they did. My older brother, Alex, he started a band when we were in high school in Chapel Hill. And he was the one older than you, or are you the second one in?

Yeah, I'm the second one in. He was the eldest, just a year older than I. And, you know, he exposed me to the sort of second tier of my musical, you know, world. You need that guy. You need the older brother. You need the older brother. And he was so into, you know, I think he got into it through beach music, the beach music scene. music the beach music scene but but he he deeply got into soul music in the in the south and would make these long trips to listen to various artists Don Covey Joe Tex Joe Tex that's deep stuff yeah he's heavy man and and would listen

to you know Jimmy Reed and oh yeah Jimmy Reed yeah Oh, yeah, Jimmy Reed. And Big Boss Man, yeah. Yeah. But also Ray Charles and Jackie Wilson. He exposed me to a lot of stuff. That was important. And then we played in a band together and played a lot of those songs. Sure. I mean, you can hear that.

I mean, what was that big hit you had, Steamroller? Was it Steamroller? Steamroller, yeah. That's almost like a Jimmy Reed tune. You know, it's a 12-bar blues. It's, you know, it's a satire. It's a spoof, you know, of, you know. Of what, that type of song?

Yeah, well, of... But so many of those songs are really like that. Well, yeah, but, you know, it's one thing to be Muddy Waters singing I'm a Man, and it's another thing to be a pimply white adolescent singing I'm a Man. So that's what the joke was. Okay. But all right, so you were growing up in Chapel Hill, and what's your old man do?

My father's a doctor. Still? No, he's gone now. But he moved us down in 1951 in a 1950 Plymouth station wagon. Yeah. He drove my brother and I down, and my mom took the train with the little ones. Yeah. And we moved to Carrboro, North Carolina, which was the home of Elizabeth Cotton.

Uh-huh. I don't know if she was there then or not, but that was 1951. And he started working for the University of North Carolina as a staff doctor. He taught medicine for a while and ended up being the dean of the medical school there and basically building the medical school with a couple of other early guys. What type of doctor? He was an internist, you know, originally, and did some research, too. But, you know, he got into medical administration and was sort of more interested in building the school.

Yeah, I grew up, my father was a doctor. It's always good to have a doctor around. I don't know what it does, you know. What do you feel like it did to you? I know what it did to me. what it does you know what do you feel like it did to you i know what it did to me uh you know you develop a sort of uh i do remember there was never a concern about getting to a doctor that's right a certain uh a certain detachment about your own health maybe uh-huh but also i found that they were kind of self-involved well my father was you know they were always on it

always seemed that the work they were doing was very important. Right. And that whatever emotional detachment he may have had was for the service of the bigger good. Yes, that's right. They were detached people. Yeah, a little bit. I think surgeons are another level of that altogether. That's what my dad was. Yeah?

Yeah. And I think they have to be, you know, they have to have a certain amount of, you know, self-assurance and an assumption that they can make these big decisions and that they're right in doing so. Right. Without thinking too much about it. That's right. I mean, you've got to just- Or else it would drive them crazy.

Yeah. Or, you know, you're just going to have to go in and cut and hack and do what you've got to do. Right. That's right. Did you get along with him? I did. I loved my dad, and he was really good to me. But he was, in many ways, not a happy person.

And our family sort of came off the rails in the late 60s. My mom and dad split up. Oh, they did? Yeah. And it just was, it happened in a period of about two years, you know, my brother Alex, who's dead now and died of alcohol, he started to, you know, he started on a path of real self-destruction. My folks' breakup was, you know, it happens so frequently that you think of it as being routine, but it's a big deal. And especially in that era, it was not that common necessarily. Right.

that common necessarily. Right. And I ended up in a psychiatric hospital and was followed by the next two siblings. This was before you even started professionally playing and everything? Yeah, it was. It was in my senior year of high school. What were you suffering from? It was called depression. It was like just a common teenage angst. Sure. But it felt pretty, you know, I was impressed. Were you suicidal? Suicidal, yeah. And do you attribute the divorce to that,

or do you look back in whatever your experience, which has been harrowing at times, do you see it as a chemical problem? Well, I think, yeah, I think it may have been harrowing at times. Do you see it as a chemical problem? Well, I think, yeah, I think it may have been a combination of, I mean, I think we are, you know, our brains are a chemical process, and I think we're evolutionarily predisposed to a certain kind of life, and

if we're removed from that, it can be difficult. But it's just that particular time, that passage of late adolescence or mid-adolescence, it can be a very harrowing time of trying to, just a vulnerable time where you're trying to find your way and figure out who you're going to be in the world and if there's a place for you, and you're being delivered this body and metabolism and mind that you were really born with, in a sense. And then, for me, self-medication started when I went to New York

and started playing rock and roll. So after you got out of the hospital, and also I think, you know, when you're sensitive, it doesn't make it any easier. You know, when you feel things deeply. I think some people are a little more equipped sometimes. Well, yeah, I think some people do have a sort of a more positive assumption about life, you know. Yeah, those people. And, you know? Yeah, those people. And, you know, and that's great. You know, God bless them.

And also, I think people have faith that their families sort of indoctrinate them in. Sure. They're little, and it goes beyond just the religion there, and it also has to do with how they seem to feel about the world. Yeah, a whole point of view perspective so you were not given either any of that well you know i think i was given other things but uh but i was you know i i just had that uh uh what felt to me like a pretty extreme version of that teenage vulnerability and anxiety.

And a heavy heart? Maybe so. And at the same time, both the culture in the late 60s and my family were sort of coming unglued. Right. So it was an interesting passage for me. I felt as though checking into the psychiatric hospital and spending my college fund in about six months, it gave me permission to go do whatever I wanted. Your father signed off on that? You decided on your own that I'm going to check into a hospital because I got problems? Your parents were that chaotic that they weren't part of that?

They didn't really notice. Other people noticed. But when you decided to go in, what did your dad say? Well, you know, the first thing is people who knew my family well and teachers at the school I was trying to stay in, school I was trying to stay in, they said, you know, we think that James ought to talk to somebody, you know. Right. So they sent me to someone at Children's Hospital, and the guy said, well, I want you to go to McLean's for, you know, he was concerned, and he said, I want you to go to McLean Hospital

for some observation. So you had to go up to New England to do it. No, I was at New England at the time. I'd been sent to a boarding school. Which one? Milton Academy. Oh, Milton Academy. I went to Curry College, which is down the street.

Yeah, sure. I know Milton. Right on the border of Mattapan. Yes, that's right. Yes. That's right. Oh, so you're at that prep school, losing your mind, being depressed, and they send you over to the best psychiatric hospital in the country at the time, I believe.

I think they did. Yeah. And my folks were, as I said, they were preoccupied with other things going on. And I think it's a time when young people need their families to sort of support them into adulthood. Give them some tools. Give them some tools, but also some support and some guidance and just let them know that they're watching them.

You didn't feel that? No, I don't think we did really because I think they really were, they had their hands completely filled. My father was alcoholic and I think things were really. Oh, was he? Yeah, they were overwhelming him. What form? Was he violent or just... No, no, he was, you know,

as functioning an alcoholic as you could hope to find and a loving person, really. But you had it in your family. But it was in there, oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's in there good. It killed my brother, no question.

Took him right out. And did he try to get clean at different times? Yeah. I mean, it's in there. Good. It killed my brother. No question. Took him right out. And did you, did he try to get clean at different times? Yeah. But there just wasn't enough on the other side of life. It's brutal, dude. I got 16 years sober. I know. I know.

There are days where you're like, what's the point? Yeah. That's right. That's right. I guess that's where music came in, huh? Hmm. You know, yeah, music did, really did solve a lot of, you know, it just spoke to me. And I was, you know, kids don't need much.

Young people don't need much to feel as though they have an anchor in the world and that they're a go. Like there is some way forward for them. Well, when you moved to New York, you were fresh out of the hospital, you know, and you had your finger picking in place or what? I did. I'd written some songs and I was starting to write more. Were you a solo act? No, I had worked with a friend of mine that I knew from. See, my mom was the daughter of a New England fisherman. And she came from Newburyport, Massachusetts.

And she, when my dad moved to Salt, she met my father when he was at Mass General as an intern. And he then, when four of us were born in New England, and he was coming into making a decision about how he was going to actually practice and what his gig was going to be, he decided to move back to North Carolina. He was from there? He was from there. He was from Morganton, North Carolina. Southern boy.

Yes, a southern boy, a sort of Faulknerian tale of a very heavy and impossible childhood, really, for my dad. Yeah. Really? A very hard story to tell. Yeah, very Faulknerian kind of thing. Did you have a relationship with that side of the family? No, not really. Not really.

That was also a very hard, well, you know, everything's relative. Sure. But everything's relatives, as they say. Yeah. But as Einstein's brother-in-law used to say. The thing is, my mom met my dad, and every chance she got, she tried to sort of save us from North Carolina, you know, as it were. She was afraid we were going to attach down there, that we'd absorb the local zeitgeist, that we would basically become of that place. The worst part of the – the worst idea of the South, perhaps. I think...

Because it's beautiful down there. I think she was alarmed by... She was on the picket lines. She was sitting in in restaurants that were trying to integrate. She would bring us from North Carolina

up to New York to see some plays. She would enroll us in various programs that got us out in the summertime. She drove the whole family up to Martha's Vineyard, which in those days was not a millionaire's ghetto. It was a cheap, sort of progressive place for families from the academics and artists to hang out from the Eastern Seaboard. So she would take us up there every summer and rent a house. We had a little place with no electricity. We camped out. We had the best time in the world. But my point was that I, you know, on the vineyard is one of the places where I got into music because there was a lot.

There was a great coffee house there called the Moon Custer. Yeah. And that was associated with the Club 47 in Cambridge. And there was great music there. And there was an open mic night, there were places to play, and I met my friend Danny Korchmar there, who was from Maranek, New York, from Westchester. And he

really, he was the third level of my musical education. But like forever, like you've been working with him forever. That's right. So we played our first gigs together when he was 17 and I was 15, and then we started the flying machine together after I got on McLean's. I went down to New York and with a friend of mine, my best friend, oldest friend, Zach Wiesner, we went down to New York City and along with a drummer that Cooch knew who happened to be a heroin addict

and was yet another stage in my education. Non-musical? No, musical as well. Joel O'Brien was a fantastic drummer, but also just a consumed enthusiast about music. He introduced me to Latin music, to Brazilian music, to another whole layer of rhythm and blues, to country music, to Sinatra.

No kidding. Yeah. And heroin. And heroin. Yeah. And unfortunately, I was one of these adolescent ouch cubes sort of cringing across the landscape. And when I found heroin, I was one of these adolescent ouch cubes sort of cringing across the landscape. And when I found heroin, I was just gone.

Relief. Yeah. Relief. So with me, I wasn't seeking ecstasy or oblivion. I was just looking to get normal. No, believe me. I know exactly what you're saying. The discomfort of anxiety and dread and panic and being too sensitive in the world.

So I imagine that given a few weeks with heroin, you're like, oh, my God. You could breathe. Yeah. It's true. It's sad but true. And I think it's an epidemic in our country today. And a lot of people are feeling it. Opiates yeah but the way the way i i felt about it was that um

the way i've come to feel about it is that i was probably you know um like uh rowing of some viking boat yeah across the seas in a in a former life and you know when you sit me down in a in a sort of suburban context i i just you know my uh my nervous system and my body and my entire wiring is just not ready for it. You know, I'm ready for something else. I'm ready for crisis. I'm ready for war. I'm ready for, you know, to battle the elements or to, you know, raid villages or something or defend villages. or to raid villages or something or defend villages,

but I'm not comfortable on the couch watching baseball. But you didn't grow up in chaos, really, until late adolescence, right? I mean, most of your childhood was repressed in a way, I would imagine. Well, I don't mean to make it seem like too much of a Faulkner novel. It was a fantastic, you know, most of it was fantastic. We just came off the tracks in the late 60s with the rest of the culture at the same time. And you had this amazing mom who wanted to expose you to everything glorious about the arts. Exactly. And then meeting Danny and O brian and your best friend

and going to new york it's weird with drugs in the sense that there is a price to pay for your amazing worldly education sometimes and i think sometimes whether it was for relief or what you know the drug culture at that time was what it was right yes it was it was nobody knew what what was on the other side you know and it just seemed just seemed like I was living until the end of the week. I had no idea about there being a future, about any... This is with the flying machine. Yeah, this is with the flying machine. And that was a...

There were four of you? Two guitars, a bass, and a drum? Well, yeah, guitar, bass, and drum. That's right. Two guitars, bass, and drum that's right two guitars bass and drums exactly and that well i imagine not unlike we spoke at the beginning about how a guitar speaks to you i i imagine the way heroin speaks to you over a time is a is a is a shitty dialogue because it doesn't leave you much choice and i know it was a lifetime struggle but what uh what what kind

of music how did your musical style evolve? Did you find that with the dope that informed the laid-backness that initially came over you? I mean, did you find that now that you're past dope and past all that stuff, do you attribute any of your groove to drug culture? No, none at all. I feel as though I was self-medicating i was looking to get normal right not looking to get high right and um i've written a lot of uh recovery songs since i've been in recovery but how long you got uh 32 years now congratulations 1983 oh it's beautiful thing right it is a wonderful thing i mean yeah you know know, I can't presume that I'm there.

Right. You know, because it's waiting. Yeah, I know. I have had a slip, so. Oh, have you? How long ago was that? About 12 years ago. Oh, yeah, and what?

You know. Painkiller? Regular painkillers. Yeah, yeah, sure, sure. After a surgery. Yeah, that's what happens, man. You know, it's like, I remember that feeling. Yeah.

Yeah. Terrible. Well, good. I'm glad you got past it. Thanks. So when did you shift from the band to solo? What happened? Well, the Flying Machine, you know,

in those days it was record or die. And we signed to, we got a couple of people interested in us who were, I guess they were music publishers. And unfortunately, I signed away my publishing for that non-deal, as it were. But we signed to these guys, and they were supposed to put us in the studio. And in fact, we spent two days in the studio. And then they told us, this isn't happening. But the paper I signed came back to haunt me.

And also, after Sweet Baby James came out, and I had some success uh they found all the old uh you know half-baked shit that we did in the uh in the studio in those two days and they just released all of it oh really the flying machine album yeah that's right and it's a bootleg and it's a boondoggle and it's a you know it's a piece of crap it's out in the world though oh yeah i signed three or four of them a day when i'm on the road really so you don't mind Right. It's a bootleg, and it's a boondoggle, and it's a piece of crap. It's out in the world, though? Oh, yeah. I sign three or four of them a day when I'm on the road.

So you don't mind doing that? I don't mind signing them, but I— Do you tell the person, it's like, I don't condone this? No, not— Do you see it more as a relic? I don't really. I occasionally tell people, you don't actually listen to this. Right.

Right. people uh you don't actually listen to this right right so they had you up through uh the first james taylor record and sweet baby james the publishing deal uh they had me until uh um one man dog oh my god so they just uh took my publishing that's and you never got it back uh i got 50 of it back after a certain point. Wow. So that resentment alone would fuel an ongoing drug addiction. Well, you know, there are so many stories of people being ripped off of musicians, particularly writers. And, you know, Bonnie Raitt has the Rhythm and Blues Foundation, along with a guy named Howell Beagle. And they've done as much as they can to redress some of that, but it was just assumed that if someone allowed you to record,

they were going to take all the money. You got to record your music, they'll take the money. Right. And that was just the way it was. Yeah, that's the way it was. I felt as though I have my own personal version of that story. I think a lot of people do. Sure.

Oh, no, I've heard it before in here. So when you did the first James Taylor record, you know, which was solo, how did that come about? I mean, before Sweet Baby James. Because that was really the first time I ever saw you. My parents had the album Sweet Baby James. And I'd see your face and I would listen to the record but I mean I'm talking I'm like 8, 9 years old, 7 years old

and I would see that face and it was a very intense album cover, that cover. I couldn't tell if that guy was a happy guy if he was a mysterious guy. What was going on with that guy? It was sort of a haunting cover to me as a child. And I mean no disrespect. No, no, at all i uh are you on nicotine too i have a little bit of i'm doing this nicotine gum these are the lozenges i know isn't it an absurd uh addiction to chew nicotine gum the first the all i all i can say is the president also choose nicotine gum. All I can say is the president also chews nicotine gum, so I feel as though I have a brother.

It's not heroin. It's not heroin. It may lead to not brushing your teeth. Who knows? Sure, sure. It might give you a little TMJ. Yeah, but that's why I got off the gum. I was putting my teeth through havoc.

Oh, really? So I just do these lozenges, and you can get a pretty good buzz going. So, you know, it's on the level, dude. It's pathetic. Let's face it. It is. I got off them for six months, and you know that discomfort you were talking about? Yeah.

Oh, it comes right back. I'll tell you. I'll tell you. That sense of physical anxiety that follows opiate withdrawal, and that is basically the heart of it the the way i got my body back yeah was three hours a day of absolutely olympic training i mean i just at the age of 35 threw myself into exercise um in a way that you know for the endorphins yeah that was the only way i could stand to live in my own skin do you still do it i've i backed off it somewhat um yeah but i still need it i wish i could like i i've exercised in my life but never enough to get that addiction thing going i really would like to do that i mean

i'm 50 gonna be 52 and i and i just uh and i've exercised in my life and i've gone through periods of it but i never i'm like where's this high? Maybe I've got to go further. I've got to go harder. I never got the payoff. Yeah, that's right. You've got to go. You have to find the thing you like to do. What did you like? Running? No, when I was in New York, I did aerobics classes.

It sounds a little pathetic, but I did. I used to go and just sweat, dance to disco music whatever it was no shame in that people do the the things at home with the videotapes now it's not aerobics it's a much more alpha uh aerobics these these workout videos now right gorillas jumping on things right but it but you know it's sort of uh between aa meetings and uh and and exercise uh group exercise that was sort of my life oh yeah

yeah and it brought me through a period of time uh that's good man yeah you still active but but then i i got into uh like cross-country skate skiing i got into bike riding i got into long distance hiking i got into uh yeah you know paddle. I got into a whole bunch of stuff. So it's good. You're fit. I still, yeah. I think I overdid it, and I wore out a knee. But generally speaking, I think it was my salvation.

Well, good. And I think it was that. It was like I channeled my inner Viking. Yeah, the Viking. You like the Viking. Yeah, I my inner Viking. Yeah, the Viking. You like the Viking. I like the Viking. Yeah, the Viking. Yeah, and he did it. I think I was meant to do it. I think I'm meant to be physically active. I don't think anyone would assume that necessarily that James Taylor has an inner Viking. I think we're all happy to know that. You know, yeah, it's true. I do. Well, you know,

I think that a lot of the early stuff that i wrote was uh was supposed to uh sort of soothe me or um work through the feelings probably and you know i think you were hinting at it it was sort of like musical heroin musical uh um palliative kind of thing you know um therapeutic or something you know and and so i think people think of me that way but you know in fact if if you if you know my my you know if you come to my show a lot there's a there's a lot of celebration in it there's a lot of uh there's a lot of energy in it too sure well with the with the first record well you know what was the story behind that? Well, the Apple album, as I said, the flying machine, our bass player quit, and we crashed. Right.

And the band just disbanded. So I was living in an apartment on the Upper West Side, which in those days in the in the um in the mid 60s was uh was kind of war zone and um and how strung out were you you were functional no i was strung out yeah yeah and i i was out of any source of of money and i i think that uh had i stayed in that apartment for the next couple of months, I might have gotten into some real trouble. So I spoke to my dad. My dad called me on the phone, and he said, you don't sound too good to me, James. And I said, Dad, I can't lie to you.

I'm not doing so good. Right. He said, well, I can't lie to you. I'm not doing so good. And he said, well, what's your address? And I told him that I was on 84th and Amsterdam. He said, stay right there. And I mean, right there. Stay right there. And 12 hours later, he showed up with a station wagon and took me back home, which was a – there was a song I wrote called Jump Up Behind Me, which was written about that. And, you know, it's like, you know, your mom has such a huge amount to do with who you are, but your dad, you just need a – you can make a dad out of just three or four important points.

You know what I mean? You can assemble a decent dad. And that was a big one. Was that song on Hourglass? Which album was that? It was on Hourglass. Because that was like, we were pretty sober by then,

but it was a pretty reflective record. Yeah, it was. You know, over time, I've gotten better and better at making these records and of having an idea of what the music is going to sound like and coming closer and closer to what that ideal is. And that's another reason why I wanted to get back into the studio and make this album. I don't know if it's the last. Certainly, if I wait another 13

years, it's the last one that I'll make. It's a real James Taylor record. Yeah, I think it is. And when you were driving down with your dad, I mean, were you sweating? And did he know exactly what was going on? And he exuded a certain level of support and understanding that was surprising? You know, I just remember the the yeah i think i slept through most of it

you know yeah i was you know i was uh malnourished and and uh i hadn't had any sleep and and i i just needed to hole up and rest for a long time but he showed up he showed up that's fucking beautiful man he did show up. He heard it. He heard me and he came and got me. And I'll never forget it. So that's great. So you got it together and then you went to England? I did.

I spent about six months at home. Yeah. And I didn't, you know, I clearly wasn't going to go to college. And, you know, things were, I could see were terrible at home. And just falling to pieces, my mom and dad weren't communicating at all. And my brother Alex was in some bad trouble. And my younger brother and sister were in McLean's. And I stuck around for a while. I still had a habit. And, you know, I told my folks, listen, just take me to a trip to England and just enough money to get started over there. I'm going to go and visit a friend. I've got my songs. I've got my guitar. I went over and stayed with a friend that I'd

known from the summer times on Martha's Vineyard, who was living in London at the time. And I met some people who were enthusiastic about my music. I made a demo. I got back in touch with Danny Korchmar in New York, and I said, because I knew he had met Peter Asher and I was trying to find people who might listen to my music. The producer. Yeah. And Peter had just taken a job as head of A&R. An A&R person finds new talent for a record company. For Apple? For Apple Records. And they hadn't signed anyone yet. They hadn't released anyone yet. That's a Beatles label. That was the Beatles

label. Peter heard my songs. He said let's go play them for Paul. I played Something in the Way She Moves for Paul McCartney and George Harrison. And George ripped off the line? I had ripped off so many

Beatles songs. It was a fair trade. It was a fair trade. It was a fair trade. Yeah. Indeed it was. So, you know, we like to say, yeah, man, I liked your song so much I went home and wrote it. So you get to meet Paul. Here you are, this like shaky kid.

Absolutely. And you had these songs but you must have had everything that you have for for them to recognize that right I mean for Peter to go like you know this guy's got something unique yeah I think it was Peter who saw it and Peter said you know Paul said to Peter well do you want to produce a record for this guy and and we'll release it and Peter said yeah i do what was it like meeting paul and george you know a little bit like the second coming i don't know was john there too or was it mostly john was around they were all they were all there well we were recording it

at uh not at abbey road but at trident studios because trident had the only uh functioning eight track recorder in in england uh time. And what were they recording? The White Album. So they were about at wit's end with each other, I imagine, by that point. Well, they were still doing amazing work. That's for sure, yeah. And in between their marathon sessions, I'd come into the studio and do a, you know, we'd do a couple of, and the drummer from,

Joel O'Brien came over to play drums on the song. Oh, he did? Yeah. And, you know, I fell in love in London. I had a great, great time. Yeah. And so you jammed with the Beatles? I did a little bit.

I played with the Beatles. Paul and George both recorded on Carolina In My Mind. You know, I was a fly on the wall when they were listening to playbacks for the White album, and it was incredible. It was incredible. That's amazing. It was amazing. And Carolina In My Mind is a huge song.

It's a great song. It's a lot of people's favorite James Taylor song. It's one of my favorites, yeah. Is it? Yeah, it is. So you do that. Then why didn't you, did you stay at that label? Well, what happened was about six months into the experience, for some reason, Yoko and John were sort of sweet-talked and seduced by a guy named Alan Klein.

The manager, right? He became their manager, their first manager, after Brian Epstein. And that was a mistake. But Paul and George were not taken in. And I think it's one of the things that basically polarized them. And they still did some beautiful work beyond that. You know, let it be. That was it though, right?

But Alan Klein was only interested in Beatles. He didn't have any use for Mary Hopkin or Badfinger or Billy Preston or James Taylor or any Jackie Lomax. So he was put in charge of the label on a management level? Yeah. Okay. And he just got rid of all of us. Well, the actual mechanism was that we asked for an audit, which was in our contract, and he just threw the contract out. And Peter said, well, we're out of here.

This well has gone dry. Let's try Los Angeles. And then you came out here to where it was all happening. So you were on the edge of that. There was a whole new singer-songwriter. That was the original emergence of the modern singer-songwriter that that was the original emergence of the modern singer-songwriter right where you get Crosby and Joni Mitchell and Jackson Brown a little later I imagine Neil Young yep so you come out here are you part of that whole Laurel Canyon trip to a

certain extent yeah oh yeah yeah were you welcomed with open arms were people like that's James Taylor well yeah I mean uh it wasn't uh I wasn't, you know, Sweet Baby James was a big hit. So you came out after that? No, I came out before that. Right. And the previous summer I had, you know, I'd been on the road for a while. After I got back from London, I was strung out again and I re-hospitalized to basically as a rehab. Yeah.

That was a place in Stockbridge, Massachusetts, called Austin Rigs. They weren't supposed to do that sort of work, but they did. Because your dad stepped in? Well, no. In a sense, my dad asked somebody who recommended that as a place to go. But I wasn't admitted as a heroin addict. I was admitted as a psychiatric patient, but the reason I was there was to get sober.

Now, you couldn't kick on your own, obviously, but were you trying or were you just surrendered to it? You know, here's the thing. Like I said, I was never sort of an abandoned hophead. I was trying to function right and i did remain highly functional sure uh in spite of the fact that i also had an on and off uh habit habit going coming and going you know and you weren't alone in that yeah that's right yeah i mean it was not it was not like you know you were some sort of freak in the communities you were running in.

It was fairly common. All right, so you clean up. I mean, so I cleaned up there in Austin, Rick. This is pre-AA. Yeah. Methadone? Yes, I did some methadone. Yeah. I did two, probably a combined five years on methadone.

And the other detoxes I went to were one at Gracie Square in New York City on the east side and another place called Silver Hills up in Connecticut. But I was always relatively functional. And when I came out to the West Coast to spend time with Peter, we started casting about for people to record with. And we found Carole King. We found Russ Kunkel. We found Lee Sklar. We found a guy named Bobby West who played the stand-up bass on Fire and Rain. We found a pedal steel player named Dusty Rhodes. And we made that Sweet Baby James album in about three weeks for about $8,000 at Sunset Sound. But one of the reasons it went so quickly was that all the material was available. Because the summer before, in March, I'd gotten out of Austin Riggs.

I'd gone on the road for about five months, and then I had a motorcycle accident, broke both my hands and both my feet. Jesus Christ. I was in, you know, I missed Woodstock. I was in Plaster. Where'd you go, back to Chapel Hill or New York? I went to Martha's Vineyard, which is where I was living at the time. After I got out of rehab, I went to the vineyard. Because that's what I knew.

So before Sweet Baby James, you couldn't use your hands or your feet. That's right. And I think that period of time really allowed me to finish some songs. Get the lyrics. So when we went into the studio to make Sweet Baby James, we had everything. Yeah. It was all ready to go. You'd really thought about them.

And we had this great band. Yeah. And we knocked it out fast. And then Fire and Rain took off. And, you know, we hit the road. And that's where I stayed. That's a great feeling, man. Fire and Rain was a huge song.

It was. I was, you know, it was amazing. It was... It's a painful song. You know, in a way, but I think it's not painful to listen to. No, no, no. I mean, there's a transcendent spirit to it. For some people, it is, I'm sure.

Well, yeah, it's one of those songs that can be played at a wedding or a funeral. Right. You know what I mean? I do. So you're it now. This is a huge record. It went like triple platinum, right? It was a big record. It was. And so you're a made guy in a way, and you're in Los Angeles, and angeles and you're hanging with uh carol king and joni mitchell she sing on that one or no joni and i uh we got together after then after you dated sweet baby james we lived together for a year

oh yeah and uh in laurel canyon i'm in laurel canyon largely but but also uh we traveled together a lot and uh because we were both traveling all the time and i made a movie called uh two lane blacktop right the uh obscure was it was oats warren oats or warren warren oats and dennis wilson yep and the guy who directed it was uh monty helman monty helman with this guy he made two movies he had cockfighter and two lane blacktop and right and ride the whirlwind and I think another one called Riding Thumb. Yeah, I saw Tulane Blacktop. I had a re-release video of it.

It's one of those great sort of existential 70s movies. You know, you have to be pretty relaxed to watch that film because, man, it is flat. It is flat. How did you get into that you know uh somebody saw my picture uh heard the record and said uh let's give him a try so um peter thought yeah uh movies that's a good next step and sure as they signed me up and uh we did this i've never seen the film though i never i couldn't stand it really no i never saw it but you did you've done a little acting as yourself more as a character over the years you know here and there yeah yeah

but how long between sweet baby james and mudslide swim in the blue horizon because that was the album that i played the most when i was a kid like my parents had sweet baby james but one of my cool friends parents had mudslide swim in the blue horizon and we used to play that on a cassette on the school bus we used to listen to that album, man. I mean, like, I was, when I knew I was going to interview you, I just started going through my head and started singing James Taylor songs to myself. And it's weird how many you know. You know, like, because I knew, I know Machine Gun Kelly.

I mean, that was like one of my favorite songs on that record. And it's not the ones that were hits necessarily. But Machine Gun Kelly, I love that song. Yeah, that's Kooch's song. He wrote that. Oh, did he? Yep, yep. But on that record, you've got, you've got a friend, which is Gun Kelly, I love that song. Yeah, that's Kooch's song. He wrote that. Oh, did he? Yep, yep. But on that record, you've got A Friend, which is a Carole King song.

Yep. And you were very close with her? Yes, Carole and I, we toured together. We recorded together. We never wrote together, but- Did you date? Nope. No?

Professional? We were never romantic. We were never in bed together, but- Great songwriter, though, huh? But on the bus a lot together you know and and on stage and yeah well that became a huge hit for you that you've got a friend huh it really did uh it was um it was my only number one single and uh uh it it really uh it was great that's a great one and then like you did one man dog walking man gorilla which i remember like as a grown-up kind of, 12-year-old.

When I interview musicians, there's these moments I have where it's sort of like, oh yeah, I like that song. I like those songs. Oh, that's a great album. Those two albums are great. And then you look online,

and you're like, they've done 30 records! That's right. But when I was looking at the stuff, there was never really, you always had a hit here and there. I mean, there was not a tremendous wane for you. I mean, all the way up until when you stopped for a few years, right?

That's right. It's always been, it's interesting. You know, it's always been, it's the nature of my audience and the nature of my distrust for the business side of it and the celebrity thing. It seems so profoundly false and just stupid to me that I've had this very level kind of touring existence. Yeah. that I've had this very sort of level kind of touring existence. Yeah. I've had sort of three bands.

Mm-hmm. Well, maybe two bands. Yeah. And these are communities of musicians that I work with. We travel together. We play live. We record together. And that's the focus. Sure.

That's the thing. The live show. That and the audience. Yeah. I mean i mean your audience is very loyal audience i mean this new record that you just put out which is uh before this world was number one immediately uh which which really is a testament to to the people that have stayed with you you know over what 40 years now it is 45 years is a long time you know but think that people are so emotionally connected to your tone, to your songs, to the feelings that you are able to make people have, that not unlike any great artist, they look to you as a friend and they look to you for some consistency. And I

think that's something that not all musicians have that you do have is a tremendous amount of quality and consistency to your work. You know, I do think that there is value in continuing, you know. That's good. That's a very positive statement. It is. Yeah. It is.

You know, I think that it's important not to get swept away by the, you know, your own press or, you know, your people's idea that, you know, people telling you how important you are. There's a thing, you know, I obviously had a childhood and an adolescence, a very happy childhood, a very troubled adolescence, which gave into a long period of addiction, which resolved itself kind of late in life. And you know how it is. If you're addicted, you don't make any headway in sort of learning how to live. You just circle. You just spiral. You come in cycles. When you were married to Carly Simon, you guys did some great work together.

Was it the drugs that broke that down that really led to the end of that? You know, it was really that I just wasn't suitable to— A grown-up. I just wasn't a to... A grown-up. I just wasn't a grown-up. I wasn't a decent husband. It was an impossible project to take me on as a husband. Well, what made you hit bottom

to the point where you really grabbed it by the horns and did what was necessary? Put your sobriety first and all the sayings. What hammered that home, really? What series of events? what was necessary you know put your sobriety first and you know all the sayings and and what what made what hammered that home really what series of events well other than age well i think age had part of it and just it was a part of it but um i think that you know you um you just get sick and tired of uh being sick and tired you live the same day over and over again. You lose a lot of friends. You lose a lot of friends. A lot of people died.

And my brother died. And, you know, you have these jackpots where you're humiliated and mortified and just brought low by your disease. It's embarrassing. Yeah, it's embarrassing and humiliating and mortifying. And you were friends with Belushi too, right? Yeah, John was a close friend. Down the vineyard? On the vineyard and inating and mortifying. And you were friends with Belushi too, right? Yeah. John was a close friend.

Down the vineyard? On the vineyard and in New York. Yeah. And, you know, losing John was, you know, I have a song called That's Why I'm Here. And John's, the second verse is about John. And that it really, it woke me up a little bit to have him die. really, it woke me up a little bit to have him die. So, you know, and I myself can count five times when I really should not have started breathing again.

And so as a result, and, you know, I had these, I found myself addicted again and back in the cycle again when I promised myself I was free. And I finally said, this is it. it you know I've got to get clean and I had a friend um uh he's gone now uh hep c circled back and and got so many people 20 years after they got sober you know and now they got a cure for it now they got a cure and and he could have could have lived just missed it huh yeah but um he he brought me in a sax player who played on a lot of my stuff uh and a genius named michael brecker and brecker uh um i i had seen him

you know he's taller than i am and he he weighed 120 pounds and i didn't think i'd see him again a year later i bump into him and he's like glowing with health and sort of pink and alive and cheerful. And I said, wow, what happened to you, man? He said, well, if you're really interested, get in touch. Yeah, yeah. And I did. We're going to go hang out. Yeah.

A lot. And he brought me along, and a lot of other people, too. Oh, yeah? Yeah. He was that guy. Yeah. The recovery Pied Piper. That's right, for a large community other people too. Oh yeah? Yeah. He was that guy. Yeah. The recovery Pied Piper. That's right.

For a large community in New York. Because like if one of those guys especially the guy that everyone thinks is going to die shows up looking golden

people are then there's that moment where you're like I want what he's got. Yeah. That's right. Exactly. If that guy can do it

I can do it. That's right. Well that's a fucking beautiful story. Yeah it is. It's my favorite story. Yeah. And how long ago did he pass? Michael died five years ago. Oh that's a fucking beautiful story. Yeah, it is. It's my favorite story. Yeah. And how long ago did he pass?

Michael died five years ago. Oh, that's a shame. But he died sober. He did. He did indeed. Good quality of life. Yeah, he did. Yeah.

And I mean, his children and his daughters and his widow, you know, they miss him and we all miss him. But he did a lot. He really did a lot for a lot of people how many kids do you have i got four kids i've got sally and ben uh are um sally's 31 um ben is uh excuse me 41 and and ben is 38. Uh-huh. And Rufus and Henry are twins, and they're 14. Uh-huh. So you got from two marriages, and you get along with all of them? You know, I don't really speak to the ex-wives very much. I mean, Carly and I share I have two kids but they're

they're adults yeah and and I I can go straight to them now but you get along with them I I do but it wouldn't be I'd be lying to say that we had a relationship sure now so but I met Kim in... Your current wife. Yeah, and my last wife, and the person with whom I really finally found... I was finally ready myself, and it's a miracle that she was available. And she was working with the Boston Symphony.

I was doing a Boston P was working with the boston symphony i was doing a um a boston pops gig with john williams and she had for years had worked with williams so uh i met her backstage um a year and a half later hmm not good doesn't sound good it kind of had an an echo to it that that definitely sounded like a gunshot did It did. A big one, too. Yeah, not too far away. Should we go check on the people? Yeah! Should we vacate? What happened?

Should we be worried? Oh, I don't think so. Where was it? Right down the street. I don't know. It just didn't sound right. Come on in. Sounded like a shotgun. Yeah, it did. I don't think you should be worried.

You could go in the house, but staying out here, we're going to finish up soon. It now reminds me, I have an apartment in New York City on Central Park West between 73rd and 74th Streets in a building called the langham i lived on the sixth floor of the building and just outside my window uh between 72nd and 73rd was the dakota

sure and one night i was uh i was sitting in the window and um i heard five shots, you know, five. And it sounded to me like a 38. And I'd been told before that when the police drew and fired their gun that they emptied it and always kept an empty cylinder under the hammer. So I thought that it was a police shooting. Police shooting. Sure. And Peter Asher's wife called me up and said, I was on the phone to her when I heard the shots. And I said, it's crazy here.

The police just shot someone down the street. And she called me back 20 minutes later and said that was John. Oh, my God. Yeah. That was amazing. That guy who shot him was a troubled, horrible person. Yeah, I met the guy two days previous. He had sort of buttonholed me coming out of the subway at 70 seconds. So he was lingering.

You know, he was hanging around. Mark David Chapman. Yeah, and he was clearly possessed. He, like, attached himself to me as I was coming in. He knew who you were. So they said, uh, you know, I've, I've got, I've been working on some, some songs and, uh, and I, man, I need to talk to you. I need to, and I sort of scraped him off and, and ducked into my building and, and then

it turned out. Oh, and he did. He went after John. Literally a day, a day later. God, it's horrible. Let's go back to the good story. The symphony, your, your current wife working at the symphony. Yeah, so I met Kim then, but I remembered her.

I had had a watch, a pocket watch, and it went missing from the dressing room at the Boston Symphony. I played in places where the dressing rooms were, you know, really you didn't put anything down that you didn't want to have stolen. I lost an iPhone like that. Yeah, right. And I figured it was safe backstage at the Boston Symphony, but my watch was stolen, I swear. She denies it, but thinks I made the whole thing up.

So I called her back the next day, and that's how I had her number. Yeah. her back the next day and that's how I had her number yeah so a year later when I when my marriage had that was I was separated at the time that I met her but I was finally clear of it yeah I I called her up and asked if she wanted to get together and she sort of said no not really and then and then I called her again six months later and and she she agreed to come and meet me. Because a friend of hers had said that I wasn't so bad after all. And now it's like a timeless relationship.

Here's a watch tie-in. That's right. And you found love, and you feel like it's the right thing, and you were ready for it. It's a beautiful story, James. It is. I've written how many songs to kim now i i wrote mean old man i wrote caroline i see you that's her name is caroline um i i wrote uh you and i again from this new album so i you know i uh she's a uh the the best thing to happen to me

really in this since recovery well you know i i know you got to go and i it was a real honor to talk to you and the new album is great and it's you seem uh fit and in good shape and i was flattered that you came in and played all my guitars well thanks uh mark uh it was great i uh um i hope we get a chance to hang out again at some point i'd love to i'll come when i come to new england i'll come to your house. I'll play your guitars. All right. That sounds good. All right.

Thanks, man. All right. What an amazing conversation. I got to tell you, I thoroughly enjoyed talking to James Taylor and I feel like we could hang out again,

have some tea or coffee, have some nicotine products, maybe play some guitars in his in his studio i love him i i was uh it was very it was a very nourishing and fulfilling conversation with a like-minded individual and a fucking legend i i really enjoyed having james taylor over that record is before this world it's available Hey, go to WTFpod.com for all your WTFpod needs. Get some JustCoffee.coop. Get the Howl Premium.

Get on the mailing list. So I have not prepared any guitar. But I have it. I got it. I got it. We'll be right back. Thank you. boomer list Boomer lives. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th

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