WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 657 - Ira Kaplan / Bob Odenkirk & David Cross

Episode Date: November 23, 2015

Yo La Tengo’s Ira Kaplan tries his best to demystify the band, but Marc is convinced that Yo La Tengo remains hugely influential in the world of indie rock. Hear Marc make his case while Ira takes it in stride. Plus, Bob Odenkirk stops by, and Marc gets David Cross on the phone so they can all talk about the new Netflix series, W/ Bob and David. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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T's and C's apply. Lock the gate! Alright, let's do this. How are you what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fucksters? What the fucking ears? What the fuckadelics?

I am Mark Maron. This is WTF. Welcome to the show. In a minute, I have Bob Odenkirk here in the garage, and I have Dave Cross on the phone to talk about their recent Mr. Show Like Netflix adventure that's up. Four episodes of that are up. I think it's just called With Bob and David. It's streaming on Netflix.

You can watch all the episodes. There's also, I believe, an hour-long making of special directed by Lance Bangs, who directs everything. Everything that we're all involved in in this little world of alt and other things. Him or Bobcat. But yeah, I'll talk to Bob and David in here in a second. Ira Kaplan, the Ira Kaplan from the seminal alt-rock band Yola Tango,

here momentarily. He'll be here. I've been meaning to talk to Ira for a while, or he's been meaning to talk to me. We had some stuff to work out. There was not bad blood, but I think I was a little hard on him a little bit. I've known him a long time, but not well. We've been in the same circles for a bit.

I need to tell you, you don't already know this. You do know it. Thursday's Thanksgiving. So on that day, we will be running a live WTF that I did at PodFest with radio legends Fraser Smith and Jim Ladd talking to the old timers, the broadcasters, the guys who without which this would not be possible

you got to pay your respects to the dudes that did it for reals on the terrestrial legends Jim Ladd still on series Frazier Smith still on the air here in terrestrial also doing stand-up

but Jim Ladd an important voice in radio through the 70s and 80s and 90s to this day. So that's exciting. But I won't be talking to you directly on Thanksgiving. And generally, I talk a little bit about Thanksgiving. Well, here's what's going on with me. So I know we're leading to the holidays, but here's one thing I never quite pick up on.

And I don't know if you get this, but every year, like a couple of weeks before thanksgiving i start feeling irritable i start getting snappy i start you know just kind of losing it a little at my friends and at strangers in my car i mean i do that anyways but i can't quite put my finger on it you know i feel like sort of like i'm not grounded i'm a little fucked up in the head and i never never know what it is at first. And then like a few days before I go to my mother's for Thanksgiving, it fucking hits me, the realization that like, oh, of course, this is the beginning of it. This is the beginning of the family holidays for a lot of us. I mean, some of us do Thanksgiving. Some of us don't.

Some of us do Christmas, whatever. This is it. So, of course, I'm feeling a little squirrely because what's happening is my inner self is preparing or resisting going back to the source. That's it, to the source. Now, whatever it is, whoever's still alive in your life or whoever you spend time with, if it's parental, it's the source.

And it's not just the biological source, but it's the emotional source, the psychological source, the metaphysical source it's the source. It's not just the biological source, but it's the emotional source, the psychological source, the metaphysical source, the philosophical source. It's all of it. It's the source of who we are. That's the weird thing is that whatever shortcomings your parents had as a kid innately, either you blamed yourself or you built some sort of routine around it emotionally, and it's not a healthy thing,

but that's what we go into life with. That's what we're given, all right? And some of us spend a lifetime trying to temper it, trying to manage it, trying to fix it, just to tweak those reactions and interactions so as not to become the worst part of our parents. It's just a reality after a certain point. I mean, I'm fucking 52 years old.

I don't know how old you are. When we have to go to the source, all that tempering and restraining and inner work that we may have done our entire life is threatened. So it's freaking out. So before you got to go, of course, you're like, oh, God, what's the matter with me? Well, you're going, you're going to go deal. What's the matter with me? Well, you're going, you're going to go deal. And we innately know that the only person or people that can crumble the structure that we have built in resistance,

although temporarily the only ones that can do it, that can just sort of within seconds, just break through the walls of our little castles, our little emotional fortresses. The only people that could do that is our family. They'll just do it without knowing they're doing it because they need to do it because they want to connect with that part of you that used to react. And you might do it. You might react. By the end of it, usually I do at least once. Yeah yeah i hold off for a couple of days and then just boom i turn into the fucking horrible child or whatever i was the angry child it'll happen sometimes just for 30 seconds and i'll and i'll grab it i'll fucking you know pull back but it'll happen but might not have doesn't have to happen because here's what i'm starting to realize and

i'll share that. I'll share this with you. Maybe it'll make sense. Maybe it won't. It's temporary. Whatever's going to happen down there is temporary. And you just have to sort of fortify, you know, just know what's going to happen. You know, know you're going to get down there. All your buttons are going to be pushed. You know, that one dish they make that you don't like, they're going to make it again. That one person, that cousin, that brother, that aunt, that uncle, that mother, that father, they're going to be there.

It's going to, yeah, they're going to trigger you, man. And here's what I'm going to try to do. Maybe you can do it too. Now, look, I get along with my mom and we're doing all right, but here's what I'm going to try to do. I'm going to try to find the good side. All right? Because we're fucking older.

And the bottom line is they can't hurt us like they used to because they're older. So maybe it might be time to start appreciating that they won't be around forever. I mean, we might not. Who the hell knows who's going to go first? Some of you have already lost parents. And that absence is powerful and horrible and sad. But the bottom line is there's usually some good points to these people because we have those too. I mean, we got the good stuff too. So why don't we focus on that?

Can we do that together? Let's try to focus on the good sides of ourselves and maybe, you know, to pay a little homage to our folks for giving us those good ones. Maybe it's just a sliver, but still, let's try to focus on that. Let's try to find that love that was once pure that we had for our parents and for our family and maybe tap into that a little bit if it's not too scary and it won't leave us too vulnerable. And here's the bottom line. For your own and everyone else's benefit, have a fucking sense of humor about it all. All right? They can't hurt us anymore.

It's just going to be annoying. And we're going to maybe see part of us that we don't like, but let's try to laugh at it. Right? They can't hurt us anymore. Right? Right? They can't, right? I mean, seriously, they can't, right? It's going to be okay. And I think above all else, what we have to remember is that we are all fragile. And as we get older, we're even more fragile in many ways. And I think that if you can't respect them as people, let's try to respect the fragility of the physical and emotional situation we're about to enter

and eat some good food or complain about food that you're tired of. Whatever you're going to do, let's just try to do it, okay? Let's just, we can do it, okay? We can do it, all right? just we can do it okay we can do it all right all right so now this was fun because uh you know bob and david reached out to me to add the thing and they want me to maybe hang out and talk a little bit about the thing but it's always good to see them because we all started out together and i and i'm i was happy bob makes me nervous david was on the phone bob was sitting right in front of me making me nervous so again uh the sketch sketch show with Bob and David is streaming on Netflix and you can watch all the episodes. There's an hour long making of special directed by the one and only Lance Bangs. But like right now, let's hang out with me and Bob Odenkirk and David Cross on the.

You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs and mozzarella balls, yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats, get almost, almost anything. Order now. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. Calgary is an opportunity-rich city,

home to innovators, dreamers, disruptors, and problem solvers. The city's visionaries are turning heads around the globe across all sectors each and every day. Thank you. challenges. Calgary's on the right path forward. Take a closer look at CalgaryEconomicDevelopment.com. Phone. Can you hear me, Dave? Hey, man. It's really faint. I can barely hear you guys. How about now? Can you hear us now? Yes, that's great. Yes.

Oh, good. It was one button. It was Dolby. He needed to press the Dolby button. Can you hear Bob? I can. Okay. Do you have any kind of button there that will improve his jokes?

Oh, this is already starting. Well, that would be the david cross but that is exactly the kind of excitement and energy i wanted from you too uh let me let me try to set it up bob odenkirk is here and david cross is on the phone and i'm here to mediate some sort of friendship problem no no dude but mark do not drag us into your fucking nightmare of a world. Come on now. That's the whole point of this podcast. All right.

It's for Mark to drag people into his nightmare world. Mark, did you... I got to talk to you. I've recently read that you interviewed Lorne. I interviewed Lorne. Did he come to your garage? No, I had to go to him. I went to the SNL.

Yeah. But he did want to sit with me twice i did two hours all my questions were answered the issues wanted to sit with you twice yeah i think what do you think he had to do it he didn't have to do it i went over there and it was a monday night and we talked for an hour then he had to go to dinner he said well i'm still in town i mean if you want to come back come back tomorrow and i went back the next night and we sat for an hour and then 15 minutes after we turned off the recorders, we talked about things. I mean, I could probably call him right now.

You want to hang up on Dave and get Lorne on? What were you expecting, Bob? Did you seriously ask him if he remembered meeting you? We went beat for beat through the entire story as I remembered it. Did he say, remind me again? No. I walked in. He said, you've been here before.

It's a scene of the crime. What? What's the crime? I have to listen. Where'd you just come from? What's with the, what are you cranky about? What are you turning it on me for? No, no, no.

It's just hilarious to read that you asked him about meeting you. I had to hold for half an hour. And he remembered. He remembered, and he addressed every one of my issues, and we left friends. That's amazing. That's virtually impossible. You can't in a lifetime address every one of your issues, Mark. The specific ones with Lorne, he did all right with.

By the time I got there, I wasn't as angry as I used to be. But I did tell him at the end that I was available to audition again if need be. But what did you guys do? You made more things? Yeah, we made more four more half hours. For Netflix? We did make them for Netflix, yeah. Because I saw

a billboard on Sunset right near where my billboard is for my upcoming special on Epix. Isn't there a special club we're all in now? Yes, we're in the Sunset Billboard Club. Oh, you know who I had in here yesterday? Dave Todd Haynes, who spoke highly of your Allen Ginsberg for him. Oh, God, that guy was awesome. I knew very little about him except for his work, and he could not have been a cooler, more down-to-earth, unpretentious, awesome guy.

He was fantastic. I think he's a genius. Has he got a new movie coming out? Yeah, Carol. It's called Carol. It was stunning, that movie. It made me cry. It's a love story.

It was deep. Do you cry, Bob? Yeah, you know, you've got to die for me to cry. So now... I don't cry a lot, but sure. I do, man. I do more than I used to. Me too, dude.

Is it our age? What the fuck is happening? Yes, you're getting old and the pipes are cracking. And this is a real thing. It sounds like a joke, but I'm a, and this is a real thing. It sounds like a joke, but I'm an airport, airplane crier as well. I can, if I have a few drinks and I noticed this start about 15 years ago when I was gearing up at a trailer for Angels in the Outfield 2. Oh my God.

Yeah. You got it bad. What? Yeah. Where were you God. You got it bad. What? Yeah. Where were you? No, I believe you. Yeah, if a commercial is solid, you know, and has a good punch at the end where, you know, the guy gets the medicine or whatever,

the house gets built, I'm very sad. Moved. But I don't think it's a bad thing. That's a real thing. Airplane, you know, when you're up at a certain altitude, and it's a real thing. Airplane, you know, when you're up at a certain altitude, it's a real thing. I will tear up listening to a cat power song or something. Nice.

It's ridiculous. Bob, when was the last time? And I'm embarrassed. No, there's nothing to be embarrassed about. I guess I'm always in airplane mode. Last time I cried, I was trying to fix the oven. I couldn't get the goddamn knob to go on there. And it was just like, just end it now. That was it.

End this fucking world. You were trying to kill yourself, though. No, no. I just wanted the fucking oven to go on. Now, whose idea was it to do more Mr. Shows? They're not called Mr. Show. Wow. Anyway, the idea was both of ours to do something to celebrate the 20th anniversary.

Of what? Of the first Mr. Show. Okay. And we were going to do a live tour. Yeah. And then we realized how fucking hard that is. Yeah, a lot of work. Yeah, it's a lot of work.

And why not just make four new half hours with new comedy and then more people get to see it and call it what because you go on tour right and then people call you and go mark where are you coming to my town yeah and you go i can't i was just there yeah i was there last night right and they go i never saw anything you didn't see the 90 tweets yeah the facebook post that's right and me putting a flyer under your door exactly yeah so we decided just let's try to do some shows and we didn't know what it would be we knew it would be sketch comedy or at least something very silly and uh we were surprised that all the actors from uh mr show wanted to do it and could

do it and we were surprised that all the writers wanted to do it and could do it so that was a shock and we didn't expect it well i think you underestimate the fact that that might have been the best times of their lives. I definitely underestimate that. Well, but if also a lot of these guys are extremely busy, you know, and they had to kind of clear their calendars and also, you know, double up on their work in order to participate. But people were still very enthusiastic, and it was great. And did everyone get along?

Totally. Yeah. It was really fun. So people had so, their egos were so either built up or completely destroyed, decimated by the last 16 years, that there was none of that, like, what about me? I didn't get to do this. My idea, you changed my idea. You know, people were really cool.

People like Scott Aukerman and Paul Tompkins have produced and made their own stuff. And they're done. They did it. And they're not all wrapped up in anything except making something fun. And Brian was there? Posehn was, yeah, great. He's got a kid. So, you know so that took a little stuffing out of him. Do you know what I mean?

Yeah, oh, yeah. So everyone was happy and cooler and happy to be there. And I mean people like Tom Kenny and Jill Talley who are very busy people with jobs. It turned into more of a reunion than we ever intended it to be. But we're really happy with it. And for us, it's new comedy. And if we do more and we'd like to do more, we just keep going down this road of whatever we want to do. It wouldn't necessarily be even like what we just did. Let me ask Dave, though. Dave,

Bob seems to be speaking for everybody. Did you actually want to be there? Bob seems to be speaking for everybody. Did you actually want to be there? Yeah, no. There being L.A. We're at the point where we can speak for each other because we've listened to each other answer the same questions over and over again. So even if Bob's doing an interview, he can say, you know, I mean, David felt this way and I felt this way.

But yeah, he absolutely speaks. Okay. But I mean, I know you're on the phone here. I didn't want to just sit there nodding quietly. I speak truth. Wait, wait. Are you, can you not see me? No, it's not working.

Did you, what, do you have a camera set up? Yeah, I have an old Hasselblad camera and I've been taking photos and then running down to have them developed. And I'm on my fifth one already, and so it's not working. You're not seeing the photo. No, and I'd like to see a Hasselblad photo. That's like the two-and-a-half by two-and-a-half format, the square pictures. Yeah, it takes a while. Oh, wait, here they come.

Here they come. This looks like you trying to work the camera. That's a good picture. Yeah, okay, so you can see I'm nodding. Well, I appreciate it. I appreciate you putting out the effort. It takes a lot of work to do that. But what's the format? Is it the same format, same style?

You know, we just, it looks a little like Mr. Show, but if you watch it closely and you don't need to, please just enjoy it. It just doesn't have the same structure as Mr. Show, but the sensibilities are there, and that's 99% of what's going to carry on. It's a lot like it, Mark, because we're the same people. No, I understand that, but did you wear the... Do you think that your comedy has changed over 16 years? Yes.

Thank God it has. Do you remember ever seeing me 16 years ago on purpose? I feel like you're better. I'm better, yeah. Yeah, people enjoy me now. Back then, it was hard for everybody. Well, it's not as easy for me to change

because I was good back then. Okay, that's true. So I have a... That's true. You know? You could actually go the other way. It could get worse for you. Absolutely.

I was just going to say that you back, you know, because Mark and I go back a long, long way. And for so long... Like what? Like 30 years? Guys, seriously? You come on stage and you were just a force of like angry negativity uh-huh and you and you you know we were all like a catch or something and you go you'd be talking you're like oh wow all of a sudden i have a stomach ache what oh

here's oh marin's here you know and uh you have a that ability you had HAD, past. Yeah. Well, I'm glad that I've refocused those powers because obviously I was powerful. Without talking, I caused illness. Yeah, yeah. You can cause a stomachache. Yeah. And you're like, what? I'm in perfect health.

What's happening? Yep. It's me. 30 years, Bob. Is that what you're asking? 30 years, me and David? Have you and David known each other for 30 years? I probably met him over 30 years ago,

which is even more crazy. That's weird. Yeah, a long long time ago. He was in college, so that must have been, holy shit, it's over 30 years. Yeah, I was only in college for really one year. You guys are older than me. Are we?

You surpassed me. And Dave got married, did you know that, Bob? What? What are you talking about? Bob was the fourth best man. Oh, that's sweet. I had 19 best men. What an honor. And Bob was number four.

Okay, so there are four episodes. All the people that everyone loves are there. Yeah. The surprise of it all is Dave is not wearing cargo shorts, correct? That's the only difference. I lost the endorsement deal a couple years ago, so yeah, I'm not wearing them. I'm back to what I normally wear, what I like to wear. I was forced into it with a stupid, dumb, naive, young decision to sign that contract.

It is an interesting question, though. You were making a point, David, years ago by wearing the shorts, which is I'm not going to dress up to be on TV. I live in L.A. It's hot most of the day. But, Bob, you've known me for a long time now. That's how I still dress. I dress for comfort. I don't dress for style.

I don't dress. You're doing a TV show. If I live in a place that nine months of the year is 90 plus degrees, I don't wear long pants. Do a reality show then. And wear the clothes you wear. Listen, Grandpa, you know. I'm still trying to go back.

I'm still fighting that argument. That's like the first thing we talked about. Was it? Really? You're going to wear shorts? Yeah, but I know. But you, my argument was always, and this is kind of a purposeful argument. When people do this, David, pretend you can't hear us or you can't talk, but can hear us.

When people do such things as wear shorts on national TV for their show that they've been waiting their whole life to get, they are making a choice as strong as dressing sort of nice, you would say. Right. It's not like they're not trying and therefore being authentic. They are being, they're kind of going out of their way. Uh-huh. They are being, they're kind of going out of their way. And it's, in that way, it's sort of, I'm almost going to say,

as inauthentic as putting on a tuxedo. Yeah, I understand that logic. You know what I'm saying, right? Sure, sure, that there was an aggressive resistance to doing what is. So aggressive that it takes more effort. Are you still with us, Dave? Yeah, yeah. I'm reading my report. Kick it in, hi.

I've made my point. I think Bob's done with his point. Well, let's... It actually took no time and caused no argument. Anything you choose from your wardrobe is a choice. That's right. You've made a choice. That's right. wardrobe is a choice. You've made a choice whether to not be colorful or to not bare

skin or to dress with a certain style from a certain decade. Everything's a choice. The only time it becomes an issue is when you're up against the kind of reasoning that says, hey, you shouldn't wear that. You should wear things that I don't notice. And how benign is it to wear short? I mean, of all the choices you can make, that's really not that. I'm glad you are. I'll be honest.

I think it's wonderful and hilarious. It makes a great stage picture. And basically, you're looking at two guys and you're saying to yourself, oh, one of them cares. One of them cares. And that's a wonderful thing.

It's a hell of a comedy duo. Cares and not cares. We should go and tour elementary schools with our message. It's like Goofus and Gallant. Oh, and you're going to go on tour comedy. I talked to my, I think we have the same

booking guy. You're going to go out and do some dates, right? Yes. I'm working stuff out now i have been for a little while since i got this um shoulder surgery a couple weeks ago that's hilarious that's hilarious it is funny and um and it's it's called my shoulder surgery it's a one-man show that sounds great and uh yeah and it's about shoulder surgery uh throughout the ages and and uh and it ties in with the suffragette movement. Oh, good.

So it's a feminist message. No, no. I approach it from the other way. I'm totally against it. And the whole gist of the show is women shouldn't be allowed to drive. I'm fine with all the other stuff. They just shouldn't be allowed to drive. I'm fine with all the other stuff. They just shouldn't be allowed to drive. Were you in a car accident where a woman was at fault

and you hurt your shoulder? No, it's just something I've seen in movies, television shows, commercials, vines. Well, it'll be a great stand-up hour. I can't wait to hear it. And you, did you, and Bob Odenkirk, whose performance in Better Call Saul I thought was wonderful. You, Dave, did you like it?

Oh, I loved it. I loved it. And we, it's the last show that I really kind of religiously watched, and I can't wait for the second series, but I would pay them or And I DVR them. And then I'd come in and I'd go, don't fucking say anything

because Brian would watch it that night on and y'all would start talking about it. But I would tape it so I can plow through those commercials. I can't stand watching

that stuff and having to stop every 12 minutes. And you were proud of your friend. Were you proud of your friend? Very, very much so. I was proud of him from Breaking Bad. I remember I was a bit late

to that show, and man, just, yeah, I think he's done a tremendous job, and the show itself is amazing. It's so well-written, and I love it. Suddenly, I've gotten very quiet. Yeah. Well, I'll be honest, when I watch it. Suddenly, I've gotten very quiet. Yeah.

Well, I'll be honest. When I watch it at first, because I don't like really liking Bob, and so I go in with a certain amount of resistance. Like, Bob's really a clown. I don't think he can handle a role like this. That's what I thought. Right? I still think.

Yeah. No, but you were great, and I was like, God damn it. It's so good, and he's so good. They're writing it for me. I don't. Actually, you were taken out of it. And it's amazing that I'm going to act like he's not here. It's amazing that he has the ability to make you not watch your friend. You're watching this guy.

You're watching this character. And that is a a remarkable feat i think and you know what else is remarkable about it is you you know and you know bob and i know him not as well as you but my relationship with him is different is that i felt bad for the character a little bit and i don't feel bad for bob at all can i can i admit something can i admit something it's not me it's my stand-in oh i it's the guy who stands in for me and then right when it's time to go i always whisper in his ear you say the words just you do it just this one time did you finish shooting a new one or is it i did we finished about a week

ago thank you for the compliments both of you gentlemen i know first of all let me just say i think you're both capable of the same exact kind of work and it is all up to somebody to write it and let you do it i mean we're as comics as comic actors we're all about commitment right we commit to all kinds of crazy crazy shit and we hang in there with it and make it real. And the difference here is just that these guys write, you know, really sensitive, complex characters. And so that's the only difference. I mean, look at Michael McKeon. He's doing amazing work.

Wow. And he's capable. You know, I think a lot of comedy people, it's easier to go to drama than for drama people to go to comedy. Sure. I find it infuriating and, I mean, really upsetting, and I've had to answer this question a hundred times, especially in this last go-round of press for this show,

of this just general kind of unspoken understanding that comics, unspoken understanding that comics, it's a surprise when comics can, you know, act normally and inhabit a real character with, you know,

grounded humanity and pathos, and that's a surprise for people, and it's fucking, and because I get in relation to Better Call Saul, they're like oh are you surprised by that like no not at all i'm not surprised when any comic sure it's not look how great look how great keegan michael key is and uh with bob and david and just and he's because he and i'm pointing to him because you're hilarious in that know your rights thing david but he's

playing an incredibly grounded, really quiet character. He's so good. The only people that aren't surprised are our wives and girlfriends because they are dealing with the pathos and grounded complexity every day. Every day. That's right. They're the only ones going, yeah, no, I know. Yeah, I've seen that. I've seen that shit.

But everyone's doing good work, and I'm happy we're all alive and healthy. And David just did a third season of Increasingly Poor Decisions of Todd Margaret. For the network I'm on, IFC. How did that go, David? It was great. It was a really interesting—it's going to be quite different. It's kind of a mind- thing what he did because each season and as he was describing this third season is kind of makes you reconsider everything else you've seen.

So so so you just you fuck with people's heads. Yeah, it's more there's a I hope I hope very much that people aren't ahead of it. And I don't think they will be, but I don't think they'll figure out what's really going on. There will probably be two or three times throughout the, you're like, oh, I know what it is. And you'll be wrong. I know what's happening. And you'll be wrong. By what point do you think people figure it out?

What's the point of view of it? It won't be until the last 10 seconds. Are you serious? Yes. Does that make it fun? Oh, I know what it is. It's like Twin Peaks. Is it a dream with a little person?

I mean, I'm 5'9". I don't think that's average. Are you going to be working on anything funny in the future? Yes, I'm making a movie starting in two weeks that I co-wrote. Really? It's called Girlfriend's Day. Have you been working on this for years? I have.

I've been writing it on and off for years. I feel like we talked about it years ago. Well, we're making it. Great. Starting in two weeks. Congratulations. Thank you, buddy. Oh, so much shit is going on.

It's a fun little thing. It'll come out on Netflix. And so that's really great because people will actually see it. As I understand it, Bob, didn't you snap some really talented female actresses for that movie? Yes, Amber Tamblyn is my love interest. No! Oh, I see.

Watch it, David. I just wrote in me kissing her. Is she really your love interest? Yes, she is. Why the... Now that seems... Well, she's great.

She's going to be amazing in this role. So great. How do you feel about this, Dave? I think it's great. She's going to be amazing in this role. So great. How do you feel about this, Dave? I think it's great. Are you kidding? I mean, and it comes full circle because she lost her virginity to Bob. Or no, Bob lost his virginity to her.

Is that true? A year ago. I can't remember which one. A year ago. So it's really come full circle. My God, you guys, it's, you know, I feel a complex situation on the horizon. Could be. Could be unpleasant.

You know, I'm a, you know, a modern, emotionally stable, advanced human being. And I accepted the offer to go away for a couple months. And they're putting me up on this nice island in the West Indies, and I've got like a running tab, and I just go there for three months, and I don't check in, and I promise that it won't bother me, and I promise I won't get on the internet, and I signed the papers, and I think it's a really good idea, and I'm looking forward to it, too, because I'll'll grow i'll grow as a person too it's gonna be all right dave it's good well it sounds like you're gonna have a good time

yeah we've kissed each other on screen haven't we david i think so yeah in uh in um white marriage right yes well um again i just want to say again that i'm happy for all of us we, David? I think so, yeah. In White Marriage, right? Yes. Well, again, I just want to say again that I'm happy for all of us and I'm glad I could be available for this. Thanks, buddy. Thank you, guys. Thanks for having us. Sure. Talk to you later, Dave. Always good to talk to you, Mark, and hopefully I'll see you

sooner rather than later. When are you going to be out here? I will. I'll come visit Amber when she's shooting the movie with Bob. I'll probably get out there for like four days. Call me. Will you call me? Come on. Just call me. I will. Okay, buddy. I will. Talk to you later. Alright, guys. That was great. Thank you, guys.

That was fun, right? They were so Bob and David-y. Weren't they Bob and David-y? They were, right? Oh, my God. You guys okay? You ready for Thanksgiving? Are you ready? Yo, La Tango, man.

Some deep fucking music. It pushes right into your heart and into your mind. You can just lay back and lay into it. Great music. It's my pleasure right now to talk to Ira Kaplan from Yola Tango. It's my pleasure right now to mention that their latest album, Stuff Like That,

is available now, and they'll be back on tour in the U.S. starting next month. You can go to yolatango.com for dates and venues. But right now, let's talk to Ira Kaplan. Too much? Too much? You better now?

I would think that. But I don't know if I believe that. That would be the assumption I would make. But you've been in rock and roll too long to be that fucking delicate Ira is that true I don't know maybe come on you've seen it all you know I've not seen it all you haven't at all no I'm very naive really yes do you know how many records you've put out? I can name them. I can't count them. I mean, I'd have to keep track.

All the way through? You think you could name all of them? I probably could. I'm good at lists. Yeah? I think I could. The weird thing is, though, to me, like, I've known you on and off for a long time. I've listened to many of the records.

There's a lot of records. No one's heard them all. Is that true? I don't know. Don't you have a few fans that are like- Yes, we definitely records. No one's heard them all. Is that true? I don't know. Don't you have a few fans that are like... Yes, we definitely do. And you hear from them?

Yeah. I always feel kind of shitty sometimes when I... Like, sometimes I'll talk to musicians and I usually do okay with them, but for a real fan of, like, somebody

who's listened to everything you do and is, like, you know, listen to bootlegs and stuff, I don't know that I'm ever going to make an interview that's going to satisfy those people and is like, you know, listen to bootlegs and stuff. I don't know that I'm ever going to make an interview that's going to satisfy those people. Like,

because you know this, like I've had people in here where you're like, oh yeah, I like those records, those two records and then you look them up and they're like,

they've done 90. Yeah. Well, you know, I don't, a good conversation has nothing to do with it. I think that's true.

Well, yeah, you can't go album to album. Like, what was going on with the guitar in that one? Yeah. 1984, buddy. I won't know. I think that's true. Well, yeah, you can't go album to album. Like, what was going on with the guitar in that one? Yeah. 1984, buddy.

Take me back. I won't know. I won't know. But where'd you start? Even that I don't know. You know, we did... Where were you born? I was born in Queens, and my family moved to Westchester immediately, so I have no memory

of Queens. Really? So you grew up in Westchester County. What town? Croton-on-Hudson. Oh, really? And what, like how many? Yeah, you can go online and see the Battle of the Bands.

There was a guy from the Huntley Brinkley Report who lived in our town. Yeah. We had a Battle of the Bands at the middle school, and they did a big report on it for some kind of local color thing, and somebody has posted the footage online and me and my friend eric are in the front row with just like gazing like in awe do you remember it oh yeah who were the bands the hairy things they were very good they did blues project covers and then a friend of of mine who had an older brother and whose dad was a jazz trombone player and a writer. So he was kind of a prodigy.

He was in The Bad Habit. I think they were called The Bad Habit, yeah. And this was like what year, 1975? Oh, no, no, no, no. 67, 68 or something. So what, were you like 10? Yeah. And you were down at the park or wherever

it was in the middle school the middle school uh gym slash auditorium but you were aware and conscious of rock and roll at 10 yeah what kind of like what what was uh what was your the the childhood like what was your dad's business he was i worked for a developer uh real estate developer yeah so just like middle class jewish family thing you got brothers and sisters i have three brothers i mean we it was jewish like you know culturally not religiously at all like zero like most of us yes yeah oh really no bar mitzvah nothing oh you didn't have none of that the only time the only time i ever went to the temple was for anti-war demonstrations really so you but you must have relatives.

No, not in that sense. I went to friends' bar mitzvahs and bat mitzvahs. Right, yeah, yeah, yeah. And they were probably like, you're not going to do it? Yeah, the rabbi was... No, the rabbi was very upset. Oh, really? He's like, when is your father...

When are you going to come around? He'd give my parents a hard time, not us. You know, you're depriving those kids of a lot of guilt and shame later. Like, when is your father going? When are you going to come around? He'd give my parents a hard time, not us. You know, you're depriving those kids of a lot of guilt and shame later. So you weren't brought up with any of that stuff. No. But music, I guess. Yeah. But you had older brothers?

No. You were the oldest. It was on you. Yeah. You had to be the informer. You had to turn them on. Were you a good older brother? I think so. But did you have all the cool music were there do you do do any of your siblings hold you responsible for changing

their lives um yeah i mean it was i cast a a long shadow but at age 10 you're already going to battle the bands what were you listening to and those sound like pretty abstract bands i mean you're saying they did blues project covers and you were 10 did you know going in i did not 10 no but i did remember i mean it was it was so meaningful to me that when i heard uh projections by the blues project i was like i know that's they're doing a hairy things cover i know that song turned around yeah, it turned around? Yeah. So when you were in high school, what was the plan?

When did you start playing in a band? I was in a band in high school. My friends and I would play together, but we would just kind of tease each other. It was fun, but we finally had to get two women who we didn't know and were in awe of to sing right cuz we wouldn't make fun of them right we would be just brutal to each other so it was years before again I was comfortable singing but even in high school I was mostly

playing piano I was barely playing guitar Because Yola Tango is a very influential and important band in I guess you would call it indie rock. You're like a mainstay. You're a point of reference. We won't go away. Well, that's for sure. What else? Have you

have there been discussions? Not, I'm sure many people have discussed it. not the three of us. You just keep going. But when you were in high school, though, what year? You graduated in what? 74. Oh, my God.

So you're older than me, like a few years. I graduated in 81. So you actually got to see all that shit like i mean in the sense that where were you musically in in the early 70s around what was going on in new york i mean we were right there that i did see yeah like when when did you start taking the train in man at an early age i was i was I mean, I remember literally trying to talk my parents into taking me to Woodstock. I mean, it was that kind of. At 10?

12 at that point, but yeah. Really? Yeah. It was just up the street, right? You were like, just drive. That was my argument, but. Where were you learning about music? Where were you getting turned on to that stuff?

Because hippies were everywhere, so you couldn't avoid it. Yeah. Well, my town was a really big hippie town yeah so uh the the grateful dead loomed really large in in my town and uh and early on like in their in the 70s early 70s but i i don't know. I guess I just, I think there was music in my household, but my parents loved folk music and they loved show tunes. They had like the Pete Seeger record? Yeah. Theodore Bacall maybe?

Definitely. Oh, yeah. But they didn't like rock and roll at all, so it was kind of, you know, it was music, but it was still mine. Right. Odetta, was there an Odetta record? I'm there was yes yeah yeah oh so okay so you were that's pretty jewish folk music and show tunes yeah well also we lived right on the hudson so uh pete seeger

was you know sit was literally cleaning up the the river in our in in town. And Lee Hayes from the Weavers lived in Croton. And he was diabetic. And I think he had already, I don't know at what point, he lost one or both of his legs. Right. So he wasn't going anywhere. So people would come to visit him. And I remember literally being picked up by Arlo Guthrie one day, like hitchhiking. I was hitchhiking.

How old were you then? Nine? When were your parents waiting for you to hitchhike? Well, it was a different time. It was a safe people. There was a hill, a steep hill. And kids would just wait at the bottom of the hill and people would stop. So Arlo picked you up?

Yeah. It was great to be picked up by him but it was the problem was that lee hayes wasn't that far into the trip to my house so he arlo didn't take me the whole way far it wasn't that long a ride so you didn't have a big conversation but it so isn't weird though because when we were like i remember this when i was younger is that like images of people having really not knowing anything about their music like i could hold in my head like especially the 60s like there were definitely you know iconic people that i i could look at you know and see a

picture of and identify but i wouldn't really know what they what they do like like at that time you knew it was arlo guthrie but did you know alice's restaurant or did you yeah i mean you definitely know that oh because your parents had it that would be the gray area because there used to be a show on wqxr which was the classical music station owned at the time by the new york times but they had a weekly folk show called woody's children and uh so i guess occasionally they literally... Played Woody's Children. But that was definitely something the whole family could agree on, that hour of radio a week. Oh, really? So you kind of grew up with that folky...

Yeah, yeah. You're like a legit boomer. I'm like a tail-end dude. Like, you were there for that. You were, like, cognizant for the 60s and early 70s music stuff in your teens. I mean, like, you know and you know for the 60s and early 70s music stuff in your teens i mean i i mean like you know you asked before about new york in this in the 70s and i do remember like vividly seeing patty smith for the first time and one of the just it was almost one eye-opening moment

after another but she uh for her, she played Time is on My Side and dedicated it to the father of rock and roll, Ed Sullivan, which I knew enough to know that, no, the father of rock and roll is Alan Freed. But she was talking to me because Ed Sullivan was my father of rock and roll. I didn't know. Alan Freed was somebody I'd heard about.

Right. But I watched. I saw the Beatles and the Rolling Stones. Do you remember that? Yeah, yeah. So were you like seven? Then I was seven, yeah. You remember seeing the Beatles and the Stones on Sullivan?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's fascinating to me because I don you know, I don't have that. You know, I don't have, like I saw it after, but so that really what you were there like as a kid when all that stuff was like the first time anyone saw it. It's vivid to me. I mean, I remember not only watching it, but while I watched it, my friend from up the street who had an older sister yeah he played meet the beatles for me and said they're gonna be on tv you gotta see it and this is this new band yeah that's fucking amazing so when you saw patty smith were you in like junior high or no no then i was in college oh really yeah so what were you doing for like 13 to 18?

Well, there used to be these great shows in Wollman Rink, which were a dollar or two. Yeah. And because of the neighborhood, they were really early. So they would be over by like 8.30. So at a very early age, I was allowed to take the train and go see them and go with my friends or frequently just go by myself. Who were some of the people you saw? Well, that's where I saw the Kinks for the first time, which was another just... Mind-blower?

Yeah. And you were like, what, 15? 15. Because your music definitely has a place and it seems like a natural extension of some of the stuff that happened in New York in the 70s, you know, with the sound, with like, you know, Lou Reed and Velvet Underground and television and that kind of stuff. But do you feel that those are influences for you? You know, I usually run from the influence word, but the thing that I do, I always feel that we were more,

or I was more, I feel like the people who got it from the Velvet Underground almost more, I mean, obviously I'm on the wrong side of this argument because people have told me I'm wrong. We sound like the Velvet Underground. But it's always to me- I don't think you sound like them, per se. The feelies and the modern lovers, the more suburban takes on the city scape of the Velvet Underground.

That always felt like those people were oh that's nice a little less jaded so what what what argument do people always consider you on the wrong side well the the tie to the velvet underground is i mean i think it's i mean i look i love them and right but you refuse to uh i refuse to agree with anyone. That's really what I'm saying. I've got all the records and some that no one else has, but I couldn't cite them as an influence. That's precisely.

I knew I could make you understand. Some rare cassette tapes that took me a long time to find, but I can't really say that they influenced me in any way. All right, buddy. But you're willing to let the feelies. Yeah. Yeah. But you're probably friends with those guys.

Yes. Because they're contemporaries. Not quite. A little later? They're a little, slightly older. Oh, they are? Yeah. But, I mean, they were a band that I got to know.

At a certain point, George and I moved to Hoboken. We both started working at Maxwell's, and I was... Wait, so where'd you meet Georgia? I met her at a Feely show. Really? Where? At this After Hours rock dance disco, Dance-a-teria. I remember Dance-a-teria. Now, I don't know if you remember the original one.

There were two. There was the original one, which until it was closed in a raid, there would be three sets a night. The headlining band would play the first and third set. And the three sets were at midnight, two, and four. Really? So the last, yeah. So the Feelys were there.

Like, now, who was, like... Well, the Feelys played CBGBs and Maxes. I mean, they go right... I didn't realize they were that far back. Did you ever go to Maxes? Yeah. Like, did you see the Velvet's? Yeah. Max's? Like, did you see the Velvet Underground?

No. I was too young for that. Right. And probably too stupid. I think by the time I heard them, they didn't exist anymore. Uh-huh. Really? Yeah.

Did you ever see Lou? Oh, sure. Yeah. Did you become friends with him? No. You didn't? Come on. Why is that a funny question?

It's not. I'm not that outgoing. You are with comedians. Yeah. Kind of. Kind of. So you meet her at a Feely show in New York City. And you guys hit it off around the Feelys.

Well, we had mutual friends. And mutual interest in bands that didn't have particularly large followings. So it was kind of inevitable that we would meet at some point. It was sort of a smaller circle, wasn't it? Like, did you see the New York Dolls or Verlaine or any of those people when television was around? Oh, television for sure. But to me, those are like sea change differences between the New York Dolls and television. I mean, as I said, being from like this hippie town, liking the kinks was already an issue with some of my friends.

Because they were deadheads or whatever? Yeah. I mean, as was I. I mean, I loved that too. They were great, weren't they, the dead? Yeah. Yeah. were deadheads or whatever? Yeah, I mean, as was I. I mean, I loved that too. They were great, weren't they, the dead? Yeah. Yeah. Did you ever see them? I did see them. I actually just saw them when I went to Chicago. How was it?

I had a fantastic time. It was great, I bet. Yeah. Post-Jerry. I had never listened, I still have not listened to a note of Fish, but I thought Trey Anastasia was great i i had a great time what uh when did you like when did you see the dead uh like wake of the flood i think they were they were around then and a few terrapin uh i probably i may have stopped by then

i only saw them a few times yeah was it pretty fun yeah were you Were you doing acid? Nope. I told you I'm naive. No drugs? No. Never? Well, I mean, not, I mean, a little bit, but not acid, no. You're a nervous guy. It's like, I don't know, my parents wouldn't. Okay. But you saw television?

Yeah, a lot. When they were at the top of their game? They were amazing. Well, he's a pretty good guitar player, that guy, huh? They both television. Yeah, a lot. When they were at the top of their game? They were amazing. Well, he's a pretty good guitar player, that guy, huh? They both are. Yeah. I mean, that was just amazing. I would go all the time.

To CB's? Yeah. The Ramones? Yeah. I mean, it's... Dead Boys? I think the answer will be yes. To all of them?

Yeah. So you were sucking all that up at what before you were 20 right uh right right i guess so yes what was the fucking east village like dude do you miss that you know i don't really get it's funny i i know i'm i know the right answer is yes no no no and it's not like i like it now and and and but we're grown-ups but i don't i don't feel i try not to get to i feel a lot of the the nostalgia yeah is is it i feel like it is nostalgia and it's and it's i mean i've got plenty of signs of age, but, oh, you kids don't know how great it was, is not one of them. Right, sure. Did you see Johnny Thunders?

Yeah. How was that? Those were fantastic. I mean, they would play at Max's, so I'd go to those shows. The Heartbreakers. Yeah, the Heartbreakers. Every show they ever did was like their farewell show. And they would eventually go on. And almost inevitably it would be daylight when they finally finished their second set.

How about the Talking Heads? Yeah, yeah, yeah. God damn it. That show's a lot. Well, I just like hearing that because even at my most youthful, I was never a guy that went out to see rock bands. And I did it a few times, so they're very memorable to me. But people like you who are out in it every weekend going to see others. No, my ears are ringing to confirm that story, yeah.

Okay, so you meet Georgia, you're plinkinginking around on the guitar and she's playing drums you're very humble almost to the point of negating about the beginning of this fucking band that you're in well it but i mean i to an extent that's a strategy but but it's not really wrong uh we were we were playing and and the two bands that we were really big fans of and who were very supportive of us were the Feelies and the DBs. And the DBs used to play at parties at the New York Rocker, this fanzine that we were part of our circle. Yeah. out of our circle yeah and and one day uh peter holsapple of the dbs asked george and me if we wanted to join him join them and play with them and i mean it was we were petrified but we did and that was the first time we ever played for people in public with the dbs yeah doing like you know cover songs at this party so we it really wasn't you know it always i i've always noticed the difference

between like you know the kind of english bravado like you know all the music today is shite so yeah we had to form a band to show them how it's done that you know nothing could have been further from our background well it doesn't seem like, you know, throughout your career and throughout all the records, and I imagine through your live performing, that, you know, it's like being a comic in the sense that, you know, I don't attract a lot of meatheads. So I think that, like, you know, having,

that's what always fascinated me about what I sensed CBGB's was, is that there was such a variety of music that I imagine that you know some bands you know got up to another band's audience and it would have just been horrible like i imagine that it seems like the world that you surround yourself in were fairly you know sensitive people and and not like come on let's fucking well i don't think especially at the beginning at cbgb's i don't think there was that i don't think that

many people were were coming there other than i i don't think it didn't seem like a huge sea change between the talking heads and the ramones right i mean it was they were both oh it's just another yeah right oh that's interesting punk Punk rock. Yeah. In a way. Okay, so you do this gig with the DBs, and when do you meet the bass player? Well, you mean James? Yeah. We formed our band in 1984 and couldn't keep a group together. And partly because of just how our terrible approach to doing it. We just would ask our friends, and inevitably our friends were in other bands, so they were never committed to us.

They'd play for a while. They would go do something else. And in 1992, we were, as usual, between bass players or we had somebody filling in who we knew wasn't going to, who wasn't committed to us. So really the core of it was just you and George. Oh, always. Yeah. And James was playing in a band, Christmas, who from Boston, originally from Boston, they were living in Providence at the time. And they actually had had a similar issue keeping a third person in the group and james was their bass player and we were friends with with the band and he said he always says this jokingly

it didn't seem like a joke at the time because probably because it wasn't a joking matter but he said well you know if you ever need somebody to fill in, just call me up. And, you know, we probably called him immediately later. Time to fill in forever. But he, well, and that was the thing. I think the fact that he joined as a temporary person, as a member of another band, allowed us to organically form a band together instead of like, you're hired. Right. It wasn't like that.

And it was really a year later, pretty much, that he really was in the group. Oh, really? So like not until like four or five albums in? The second record, the first record he's on, he's kind of there as the guy who, well, he's been touring, he knows the songs. On Ride the Tiger? No, no, he's not on, the first album he's on is May as the guy who well he's been touring he knows the songs on ride the tiger

no no he's not on the first album he's on is may i sing with me right so you've already done a lot of recording we had yeah with just filling people i mean yeah essentially i mean that's that's an over generalization but um but yes people who were there was a revolving door because in re-listening and listening to some of this stuff for the first time it's it's interesting because like at some point you you evolved into a sound that is uniquely yours and and sometimes it it makes me sad but i think that's part of it you know to be like i like that type of feeling, you know, but it is, it makes me a little heavy hearted, but I enjoy it. Yeah.

But at the beginning, you know, it was definitely not that. That's right. So, and I don't talk specifically about this with a lot of musicians because it's kind of tricky to talk about, is that, you know, obviously you play together a long time um and you know bands change but what what makes someone shift from i guess what was happening more feely style to to this sort of almost ethereal kind of like tone that it has a lot more atmospheric i mean was there a moment where you're like holy shit i should have to amp that high all the time or like you know the sustain on that,

why aren't we doing that more? Yeah, well, there's a variety. The biggest part of that answer is James, that when he joined the band, and when he really joined, not when we, you know, that sort of year later after we had made this other record, he had moved to Brooklyn

and we didn't have other jobs, he had moved to Brooklyn, and we didn't have other jobs, so we just practiced a lot. And we'd never done that before. We'd be kind of like trying to get somebody to, well, we've got a show coming up, we really should practice. Say, well, I think I can squeeze you in.

How's Thursday 8 to 10? And that was the kind of... Just getting ready for a gig. Yeah. Right. And then when we... The record, the first record on Matadors, the record Painful, and that record we rehearsed like crazy for, and we would, we'd write the song and we'd practice it and then we'd rip it hadn't been like that and and i think we found lots of ways of playing and ways that we could rely something to build on where where i think that was one of the natures of having so many different people is it was almost like starting again constantly and uh in the first few records yeah so and and but you But you and Georgia were primarily writing all the songs.

Yes. We did a lot of covers, but yes, the songs that were being written. Well, our first album, Dave Schramm was the lead guitarist, and we did two of his songs that he sang. And didn't he come back around? Yeah. He played on our Fakebook record in 1990, and now this new record we have is kind of a sequel to fake book, and he's back playing with us.

What's that like after, what, 20 years? It's great. Yeah. Well, we've done stuff. I think even though we're not living in Hoboken anymore, there's still kind of a small town mentality, I think, have and we don't you know these people stay in our lives and and even though we haven't recorded with dave he's we've played live with him uh from time to time he's been part of hanukkah shows there was one night it turned out he was in chicago with a band and the same night we were and we were like, oh, you know, come over a few songs.

There was no Hoboken music scene. Well, there was, I mean, Maxwell's was definitely a hub. And you lived there in Hoboken. Yeah, yeah. And you were a sound guy at Maxwell's. I was standing behind the board when people were playing.

Did you listen to Matt Sweeney? No, no, I haven't heard that one yet. No. Did I, did I do sound for him? He said they went out of their way to upset you. He said that, that you,

you had a sort of, I can't pair. I'm just paraphrasing. He was in skunk. That's right. It would have been skunk. Yeah. Yeah.

He said that there was something about you that had a sort of air about you that they just wanted to fuck with. I'm sure it wasn't difficult. And he said they would do sound checks and just play shit that would upset you on purpose. He may be... Exaggerating? He may be misreading. Sure, we all suggest that you probably just sort of like oh here we go i think these kids they're gonna do their punk rock thing were they a good band

i don't remember them i remember them their existence but right but i don't remember so when you moved to hoboken what year was that or what 80 80 or 81. Okay, so before you did any recording. So you kind of built Maxwell's in a way. No, no, no. Maxwell's preceded us. Oh, really? Oh, yeah. And that was a...

It was one of the reasons we moved there. I mean, it was to move... There was nothing happening in Brooklyn in those dark ages. And to live someplace where you could walk to a club was... uh, and who was playing the Maxwell circuit? Everybody? Uh, quite a few people.

I mean, as I said, the DBs would play in the feelies and REM played there a lot. Who's Skirdu? Uh, we're very, uh, so that was the second wave. So this is, this is an interesting thing about you is that like, you know, you were a kid and you do all the CBs business and then all those bands came in later and that was the second wave. So this is an interesting thing about you is that, like, you know, you were a kid and you do all the Seabees business. And then all those bands came in later. And that was the whole next wave of, like, you know, what was unleashed of the others, like Husker Du and the Feelies. Like, they were post.

I mean, the Minutemen. Oh, my God. You saw them? Oh, yeah. A friend of mine and I booked a weekly series at Folk City in Manhattan for about a little more than a year. And I'm almost positive we gave the Minutemen their first show off of the hardcore circuit. Uh-huh. And probably Husker Du as well. They were just part of that hardcore world. Part of the thing. yeah and and we booked

them all right so there you are you you moved to hoboken to be closer to a club and walking distance i was doing good stuff and you're working the board and what else you work in all all different jobs there you're literally being paid by maxwell's too i was being paid a little i was it more of a way to get into shows it was definitely a way to get into shows but it was it was we we uh we lived in a house and um one of our roommates had a friend staying on the couch and we felt like he was never going to leave and he announced one day that he was going to be the new sound man at max halls yeah and i went to the owner and said you

can't hire him hire me and that is how i that's that's my how i think how i got the job and that was those were my qualifications you didn't want him in the house anyway? Did you learn anything being a sound man? Not really. I stunk at it. I feel bad. I wish I'd been more curious about learning more things about sound. I mean, there were a couple things.

I was thinking about this recently. There were a few things I did that were right uh trying to deal with the room being little yeah but um but in terms of like equalizers nothing yeah yeah it's not your thing don't hurt them they won't hurt you right so but you must have known that you were destined to be playing like at that time i wouldn't say i that so what were you you were destined to be playing at that time. I wouldn't say that. So what were you thinking? I don't know. Now you sound like my mom.

That's the questions I was being asked. But were you doing something? Were you writing? What were you doing? I was writing a little. I was putting on these shows. Well, New York Rocker had gone out of business, so I was kind of not really writing very much. I had written for New York Rocker. What, Rock Review, so I was kind of not really writing very much. I had written for New York Rocker.

What, Rock Reviews? Yeah. And I don't know. And you were promoting? I was pretty aimless, a little. Yeah. Oh, my God. So your parents must have been going nuts.

They probably were. Yeah? What do you mean they probably were? They weren't like, Ira. You know, it would be like the occasional lunch that would come up. With your mother? Yeah. They're like, what are you doing?

I'm just making up your mother right now. Where are you working? Is that a good job? Yeah. No, I was proofreading lousy books. I had a college friend who worked for this second-rate, at best, paperback publisher, and I was proofreading and copyediting for them. Did you go to college? You finished college?

I went to college, and I ultimately finished. Oh, yeah? But not on time. Recently? Not recently. Finally got that incomplete done? But way, way after the fact. Where'd you go?

Sarah Lawrence. Oh, my God. Yeah. Well, that was part of how I was able to go to all those shows. It was just, you know, even closer than Croton. To New York? Yeah. Was it right after it stopped being a girls' school?

Soon after. Yeah. That place has got a reputation. Kind of a groovy place. Nothing? No real memories of it's just a i have some memories uh-huh what what i don't like looking back really was it a bad time for you ira i'm you know you ask these questions about like you know what were you doing which is such a naturally it's it's a question that seems to

come out of the conversation very organically and i don't know i don't know what the answer is it's kind of amazing to me that we managed to get here today that we i maybe i did have a plan i don't it doesn't i can't i don't think so well maybe it seems to me that that well i mean i'm no therapist but it seems to me that um there there's this natural uh diminishing uh uh gear you have in your head that it's humble you know you're humble so yeah it seems that like in talking about it you're like well i don't i don't know it just you know, you're humble. So it seems that, like, in talking about it, you're like, well, I don't know. It just, you know, just,

we weren't really trying to do anything. But, I mean, your music is very, it's very realized and passionate and orchestrated and amazing. So, like, at some point, you know, you're going to have to own your ambition as a musician. Well, we, from the moment we played, we loved playing.

And I've always... But yeah, we've tried. We've tried to do... We've done the best we can always. But... What did you study in college? I mean, barely anything. Sarah Lawrence was a college

you could really... Drift? Yeah. So you were drifting. I was drifting. And the... I was going to shows. I mean, that's really what I was...

But you can identify in your mind or your heart that you were maybe going to shows because of this amazing desire to do that. Oh, no, I always knew I had the desire. That, for sure yeah without a doubt but but it it almost felt as i i thought i tried to express it before but that almost the more i wanted to do it yeah the harder it the more unobtainable it seemed at times i you know i just couldn't figure out how to how to make that leap even even when it seemed like it wasn't a leap anymore,

but just a step. Now, with Painful, that was the album that really sort of got you recognized? That was a, yeah. I mean, we always had kind of little incremental yeah uh but painful was was a big change yeah and in in that it got you some airplay or were you getting airplay before that or probably well college radio i'm sure we were yeah yeah we definitely were in college radio and probably and and probably never got it anywhere else even with painful or anything

else any other record really i mean we've never had you know some commercial radio which has like the right the one hour sort of 120 minutes equivalent you know did you want that sure yeah oh i'd be i i'd be happy to have more commercial success. I mean, that is something I am confident about, that I don't feel like I believe in me and I believe in us, and I think we could deal with whatever situation we were put in. Yeah. But you never consciously said, like, we're going to write a hit.

No. No. Why not? I don't think we'd be good at it. I mean, we don't play well enough. We don't sing well enough. We're not,

that's not what our strengths are. I think our strengths are expressing who we are. Right. And I think trying to be something else and and i i think would be we would not be as good at it right and and honestly or as opposed to everything else i've said um one thing that that i did get a lot out of from going to see bands was seeing the bands in like television who were a strong influence in this regard in the Ramones,

watching these amazing bands not become successful, the Velvet Underground, the kinks in their own way. Yeah. It finally got to the point where I didn't, I thought that not only, and the band NRBQ, who are kind of not part of any of this world, but still huge to me, not only was being good

not a guarantee of success, it got to the point where I thought it might be a guarantee of failure, of commercial failure. And so we never expected, we weren't disappointed by not being more successful. And then we also observed people that we considered peers who we did think were kind of going for it. And it seemed to backfire like every time, like a band like REM who did get bigger and bigger. Yeah. To me, it didn't seem like that was a calculation. It just seemed like they caught a wave. Right. And then, so if we had tried, I think, I'm sure it wouldn't have worked.

Well, I agree with you. I'm being a devil's advocate. I think that there are people that set out to write a certain type of song. It's a different career ambition. You know, like if you talk, like I talked to somebody like Jack Antonoff, who, you know, wants to be a certain type of song. It's a different career ambition. You know, like if you talk, like I talked to somebody like Jack Antonoff who, you know, wants to be a pop songwriter. I mean, that's the job he wants.

But he also wants to express himself. But, you know, he studies pop music. You talk to somebody like Rivers Cuomo. I mean, that guy, he wants to make pop music, you know, and also honor himself in the same sort of breath. But I mean, I gravitate more towards, you know, what you're seeing, which is that, you know, the purest expression of what you think is your creativity is what you should be doing.

And that's what you did. Yes. And how is your audience holding up after 30 years? Pretty good. I mean, it's kind of, you know, it's, we're a family night. Yeah? Sure, sure. The kids bringing their parents and vice versa.

Is that true? Yeah. Oh, that's sweet. But we actually, we have a, you know, our new record is so different from what we normally do. There's no, I don't. Stuff like that. It's called Stuff Like That There. Yeah.

How is it different? Well, it's, as I said, it's like a sequel to this fake book record we made, which is just, I only play acoustic guitar. Georgia doesn't, she plays a small kit standing up mostly with brushes it's um and uh we did a show we did a an npr show recently in that playing that way and uh we got an email afterwards from somebody saying um i i loved it my son was a little disappointed that there were no guitar freak out so so will that happen at the philadelphia show or is that the way you're going to play? Because it's going to kind of influence whether he comes or not. He wanted some noise, huh?

He said, actually, you know, next year. Oh, really? This year, we're just... You let the kid down. He wants some fucking noise, man. He wants some fucking guitar. You're denying the kid guitar. You know, you've got to listen to your heart.

Where did you figure out how to to sort of do that because i know people compare you to to thirst and probably a little bit like it but you know i think certainly a little more melodic but i mean where did you start to open it up like that well we started uh when we were we did a lot of practicing as a trio. We did very little playing live as a trio. But we would practice and then whoever was going to be the fourth band member at that show would kind of show up and have one rehearsal. So a lot of it, some of it was just imitating Dave Rick, who was our first bass player, but then also, I mean, he's an astonishing guitar player. And he would play and I'd just watch him, you know, just wailing on the tremolo arm. And I thought, that looks like fun. And so we'd just try a lot of it at practice.

Yeah. practice yeah and got comfortable enough that we started accepting shows before we found out whether one of our rotating cast of guitar players could do it so it was actually a way to fill out like you know like you became more confident with the sound that you didn't have to that it was strong enough to where it didn't matter who the next guy was going to come in well we we always felt that way we felt like as a quartet we could we could plug these different people in uh but then we we did the show in albany as a trio because we had accepted the date right and turned out nobody was free right so we're like gulp and and i did all the guitar solos and it was like well that was fun so yeah so you could do it i'm doing it well it's scary jump you know to like uh like if i think about when i think about like i like i said

i rarely play with people but if it's just me and a bass player and a guitar it's it feels like there's a lot of responsibility there yeah you know what i mean it's like me and a bass player and a guitar, it feels like there's a lot of responsibility there. Yeah. You know what I mean? It's like there's no guy just to make sure that that stays filled up over here so I can do this. So it was almost to compensate for lack of a rhythm player in a way. Well, it was also what I could do. I mean, some of the more melodic and other ways of playing, some of that I think I've developed over the years. And at the time, I probably wasn't capable of doing much more

than just making a racket. Right. So the last record, the fade record, is a classic Yola Tango record. But this one, which I didn't get on vinyl, so I didn't listen to yet. I'm not being a snob. I just, the CDs, they get away from me. I understand. It's acoustic, and grown-ups like it,

is what you're telling me. Yeah, it's primarily cover songs. There's only two new songs by us. Who'd you cover? I can look right now. The Parliaments, Love and Spoonful, Hank Williams. Wow. But also some bands that are not as well known.

Antietam, Special Pillow. I have that Antietam album. That's a pretty record. Which one? Oh, I'll show it to you. I don't know. Our first show almost 31 years ago was with them it was like their third show they've been playing as long as you guys yeah like i don't know anything

about them see like it's so fucked up like you know i don't believe that there's any late to the party but like i miss so much always you know like because i'm a pretty open-minded person but to keep filling in you know even when i get all these records and now because there are all these record nerds around there all these labels not labels but smaller presses are reissuing things yeah that were record nerd favorites and their bands i'm like i don't know who this is how do you know who this is yeah you're getting those records too you probably have the originals of some of those records a lot of it but but i've i'm you're like sharpling i am happy that i have that i have stopped caring i mean there was a time in my life when it would have really disturbed me not to know something and now it's like i'm just mad but but there's also

an excitement of discovery yeah even if something's you know been buried to you or and non i didn't know anything about it for 30 years, 40 years, like, what was this? How is this happening? Because there's all these different types of music that are sort of surfacing in their own communities now that the media landscape is fragmented and people can sort of like find their little world

in a slightly different way than like, oh, there's a rockabilly, there's a punk rockers, there's this, that. But now like, you know there's a rockabilly, there's a punk rockers, there's this, that. But now like, you know, psych rock and garage rock and these records that were released

in, you know, issues of a thousand records that no one can find but now they reissue them and it blows minds. I didn't know who the fuck Hawkwind was until like six months ago

and there's 90 records. Yeah. It's bizarre. Or the Groundhogs. Even to this day, I know one Hawkwind song. Yeah, I don't know any of the songs but I know what they sound like. Silver Machine, great song. What Or the Groundhogs? Even to this day, I know one Hawkwind song. Yeah, I don't know any of the songs, but I know what they sound like. Silver Machine, great song. What about the Groundhogs?

Groundhogs, I know a little bit. I didn't know anything about them, but because Dan, you know Dan? Dan Cook, down at Gimme Gimme. He used to have Gimme Gimme in New York, the record store on, I think he was on St. Mark's. Yeah, yeah. Well, he's here now. So he's my guy. So he's like, I think you'd like this.

Malcolm is a big Groundhogs guy. He didn't talk. I know. I'm like, who's this? Malcolm is a big Groundhog's guy. He didn't talk with, he didn't come up? I know, I don't know. Is he? He's a big Groundhog guy? And that guy, I think, is still around, that McPhee. What's his name? Dave McPhee, the Groundhog's guy?

Paul McPhee? I don't even know. Yeah. I don't know. And you cover a Sun Ra album. Do you do a Sun Ra song? Yeah, it's a doo-wop song. A Sun Ra doo-wop number that he wrote and arranged for this vocal group, The Cosmic Rays.

So what I'm starting to realize is that maybe you went to see a lot of rock shows, but I think you were probably more influenced by your record collection. In the sense that you have a very wide, expansive sense of music from having so many records. Like, you wouldn't have seen Sun Ra. Oh, sure. You did see Sun Ra. Yeah. In fact, not only did I see Sun Ra, Sun Ra to me is one of the people that I kind of kicked myself about because in the 70s, they played New York all the time in the 80s.

70s they played New York all the time and in the 80s and I went I saw him and them a few times but but I had like a friend of mine who would like go see them every week and I was like why wasn't I that smart so what is it about him because he's not easy yeah well that's that was part of why I wasn't going every week I mean not, not just the music, but like, you know, it'd be like, come on, guys, it's 2 a.m. What are you going on? Oh, really? There was a lot of that. It felt like you really had to, that's my recollection of it. Maybe I'm saying that.

Maybe that's. Where did you get your jazz head chops? Where did you get turned on to that? Well, NRBQ had a lot to do with it. on to that well nrbq had a lot to do with it that you know hearing uh hearing sun ra the first time i was aware of sun ra was hearing nrbq do rocket number nine and they did felonious monk songs and then i heard felonious monk and was like oh i that sounds a lot like terry adams so a lot of that stuff came through the band yeah and then and know, just listening to Ornette Coleman, Albert Eiler, John Coltrane, you know, just kind of the,

you know, it was just there, like you'd read an interview with Roger McGuinn and talking about 8 Miles High. We wanted to sound like John Coltrane. Well, that's interesting because, like, that type, the type of guitar playing that you somehow take the freedom to do is adventurous. And I imagine that listening to that stuff early on or being influenced by that stuff certainly gives you a sense of how far you can push something. Or at least gives you the freedom to do it. Probably.

I mean, I'm not just being coy. Sometimes it's not clear where these things are coming from. But, you know, Neil Young has a... there too, where you watch him and just feel like, well, this is not a technical master. This is somebody who's just playing out of just sheer... Sheerness. Yeah. out of just sheer yeah sheerness yeah and uh and and feel like well what would happen if i did that what would that work would it sound and you know just trying things does it feel good when you do it it's the best yeah yeah yeah what what about um like when you do covers in a way it's kind of

what i'm looking forward to of not playing that way. Yeah. It's like tantric sex. It'll be so exciting to go back and doing it again. Oh, after a year of doing acoustic? Yeah. I bet it will. But do you find...

The point of reference I have when I hear you talk about the new record and the type of feedback you're getting is sort of where, in a very different way, in a way that I don't quite understand because I don't know him, but the sort of like where Jonathan Richman stopped and stayed, you know,

that he became almost, it's almost children's music after a certain point. And, you know, he, like, there were those acoustic records that he made that were very fun and lighthearted. But those are pretty old. I mean, those... Sure.

I don't know what he's up to now. Do you know him? Yeah, a little bit. I mean, we know him, yeah. Yeah? Is he a good guy? I don't know him. Probably.

Yeah. I mean, I... Because I kind of like to talk to him, but I'm nervous. He doesn't like talking, doing interviews that much. He's done a... He did an

interview for this amazing documentary about Danny Fields yeah and he did it while setting up for a show at a at the Bell House and then now I'm trying to think who it was but somebody else just I know also interviewed him same scenario oh really 20 minutes while he said he another show. Have you seen him lately play? Not in the last year, but I continue to see him. Is he pretty good still? He's great. He's fantastic.

It's just him. For the last bunch of years, it's just been him and a drummer. He brings his own PA. He plays a nylon string guitar, not plugged in. They're really quiet. You've got to be careful what time of year you go see him because he'll make the air conditioner be turned off uh-huh because you'll noisy yeah but but he's he's playing whatever comes

into his mind at the mother's or his or whatever that's what's interesting is that his repertoire is not that vast. Yeah. He doesn't really draw on that many songs, but he can do them. Like, he'll change key in the middle, and he'll just put down the guitar and start dancing and give the drummer a solo. And he sings in, I think it's six or seven different languages. He does stuff like Hebrew, Italian, French, Spanish. Interesting.

English. So he's really sort of gone on his own journey. Absolutely. It is so inspiring. You just watch and he's just listening to himself. He's like a savant in a way. Or not a savant, but somebody who sort of protected himself. Yeah.

And insulated himself out of perseverance in perseverance in a way huh i'm curious about that i should listen to some of his later stuff like i haven't listened to stuff in a long time um in terms of album sales and selling tickets on the road and stuff i know you do soundtrack work and stuff like that so you sort of diversified a bit you you do those kind of gigs So you sort of diversified a bit. You do those kind of gigs. We do whatever makes sense. I mean, we do enjoy playing in all sorts of ways.

And it is part of, you know, as I said, it'll be when we come back to playing electric, it'll make it that much more exciting having played acoustically for a few months, which we're looking forward to as well. And similarly, we were here just a couple months ago playing. Oh, for one of your guests, we backed Amber Tamblyn at the Hollywood Forever Cemetery. She was reading her poems, and we were her band. How'd that go? It was great. We were trying to figure out a way to do it

again but it was it was once you make a record well it's up to her oh and what about the uh the todd um haynes uh movie the dylan movie yeah you did several of those right two songs for for that yeah and did you meet with him did he choose you how'd that work he chose us he he wanted us to record um fourth time or i actually i think there was a list of maybe four or five songs that he wanted us to choose one we chose fourth time around and then the music people said well as long as you're recording you know is there anything else you want to do and i want to be Lover was one that we already knew. But it was cool.

What was exciting about that was they encouraged us to do something. Don't feel you have to record as a trio. If you want to do something different, go ahead. So we ended up with Terry Adams. We kind of put together Our Hawks. And Terry Adams from NRBQ played piano and Stanley Doral who's Buckwheat

or Buckwheat Zydeco he played astonishingly great Hammond organ player he played organ and our friend Pete Phillips played lead guitar John Sebastian played harmonica it was this crazy session we did one afternoon.

Oh, that's amazing. So that's fun, man. Absolutely. So you're still having fun? Yes. Great. Emphatically. I think we did good.

You know, being interviewed remains kind of this weird experience. It's kind of a A lot of the things... I think in a lot of ways it's just better to listen to records and make up your own story. And having sort of this authoritative figure who presumably knows the real story tell what happened,

I think in some ways is lessening the experience of listening. So I'm always willing to answer questions, but I'm never sorry when they're not asked. Well, I'm not a big question guy. Yeah. I've enjoyed myself very much. I'm always hoping that you just start talking. I was nervous about it because i

like i've i've met you several times and you know we've been in passing but uh like i i don't think i ever thought like that guy never shuts up but i think it went well it was nice to talk to you had a nice time thanks Thanks. That's it. That's it. That's the show. That was Ira. I think we did all right.

All right. Thanksgiving. Enter with an open heart, but not too open. It's going to cause you trouble. And again, remember that we're all fragile and that some people, we're not going to be around forever. Let's try to look at the good, eat some good food, and if we're going to lose our shit, let's try to make it as brief as possible. All right? We can only do what we can do.

But if you feel it happening, maybe get out, take a walk, take a breather. If you don't catch it in time, be quick to the apology. If it's not your fault, just carry it with you for a year. And deal with it next year. All right? What else have I got to tell you? Okay, yeah. WTFpod.com is the site.

You can go there, get on the mailing list, leave a comment, see what's up. You know, check the episode guide, get Howl, the new app with our archive. The remixes that we used on today's show were by DJ Copley. You can find him on Twitter at WebPuppy45. Our theme music is by John Montagna. And, you know, take it easy, all right?

Happy holidays. Do the thing. Should we play some guitar? I can play. Thank you. Boomer lives! You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs and mozzarella balls, yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats, get almost, almost anything. Order now.

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