WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 662 - Danny Boyle

Episode Date: December 10, 2015

Director Danny Boyle takes Marc through his impressive and versatile filmography, from Shallow Grave and Trainspotting to Slumdog Millionaire and Steve Jobs. And while all of Danny’s films are vastly different, he says redemption is at the core of all of them, which might explain why Danny almost became a priest. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life.

When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series streaming February 27th, exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth

at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com. Lock the gates! all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fucksicles i am mark maron this is wtf i'm in my garage i'm at the cat ranch

i got some i get emails i get things you know now that i've started to occasionally reach out to those of you listening and situations that I might not be familiar with. At the front of wars, in laboratories, in the air. But I got, this is one, what do you call it? A subterranean what the fucker. Subject line, dispatch from the underground. Mark, I work in the Iron Mountain facility in Boyers, PA. 50 miles north

of pittsburgh which is 220 feet underground in these winter months not only do i not see the sun unless it's through the webcam mounted outside i obviously don't have any windows by my cubicle under these circumstances it can get a little claustrophobic and depressing around here so i just wanted to drop you a line and say thank you for doing what you do you make these days down here a lot more bearable i just started listening to your podcast a few weeks ago been playing a ton of catch up keep up the good work andrew underground the man every day sitting there with all the unique secrets and stuff that needs to be hidden away and stored properly 220 feet underground thank you for listening thank you for listening wherever you are i appreciate it today on the show director uh danny boyle who is uh the real deal people

i mean this dude i was excited to talk to him he did he's done some amazing movies man shallow grave train spotting uh 28 days later what a slumdog millionaire 127 hours we talk a lot about the new steve jobs movie which i liked i like the new steve jobs movie i would go see it if i were you i i know some people were saying well it's not not his real life but this movie has got such a frenetic pace it's so amazingly acted and when aaron sorkin clicks it clicks man there is a pace of dialogue between winslet and fassbender that is almost reminiscent of movies from the 40s and so clever and so quick and when sorkin shit works it really fucking works and i didn't give a shit if this was the real Steve Jobs or a mythical Steve Jobs, because the real Steve Jobs is kind of mythical. Anyways, I don't know a lot about him.

I don't know a lot about Apple. But this was really about the transition in technologies and the sort of the business of him being pushed out Apple and then doing his own whatever. Doesn't even matter the back story. It's just the dialogue pace of this movie and the way Danny directed it and the way it was acted just seemed to be fucking beautiful symbiosis in terms of movie making. And, you know, I'm not a pushover. I just was very compelled. I was compelled and excited at the way it all worked. It just had that pace of dialogue, like from flight kate heppernan carrie grant or something well that's what i saw and i you know what do i know but i thought it was a great movie

and i've liked a lot of danny's danny boyle's movies oh i wanted to pay a little lip service to my buddy bob forrest you might know him as uh dr drew's uh sidekick in the rehabs but he was also the front man for a band called felonious monster. And he's also put out this amazing album, a folk album called survival songs. And the reason I'm saying this is that I recorded a WTF with him and that's coming up. And it was really one of the,

it was a great one. There's a couple of songs on that album. The cereal song primarily is one of the best songs about drug addiction that I've ever fucking heard. And I, and, and we had a nice long chat, but that's coming up. The WTF episode is coming up, but I wanted to let everyone in LA know that Bob's going to be performing at Origami Vinyl on Sunset Boulevard this Saturday, December 12th at 7 p.m.

But if you just know him as the guy who's in rehab with Drew, you're missing something because he's somewhat of a, he's a very self-aware dude, a very sober dude. And and the folk songs are pretty, pretty heartfelt and deep. And I'm telling you, man, the serial song on Bob Forrest's new record, Survival Songs, is, I think, one of the best drug addiction songs that I have ever heard. And I mean, and that's not nothing. And I look forward to a WTF with me and Bob coming up. I've been watching a lot of movies. I'm getting a lot of screeners.

Is it is today perhaps the day that I do some quick movie reviews because of the screeners I've seen between us? I went to a screening of anomalisa this is the new charlie kaufman movie it's uh all done in um stop action animation by the guy he co-directed it with the guy's name is duke he did moral oral does a lot of the uh dino and dan harman stuff i'm sure you've seen his work before but it's a charlie kaufman script and uh it's fucking soul shattering and so simple it's uh it's it's bleak poetry at its best it's a grown-up movie done in in this stop action animation but it the depth of the

emotion and the character in in character in this animated piece, this film by Charlie and Duke. I feel like I should know that guy's last name. Duke Johnson, Charlie Kaufman. Obviously, Kaufman's a genius. He did Adaptation. He did Synecdoche, New York, his big opus that he directed. He did Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless mind being john malkovich

uh he's a he's a brilliant writer and this movie did not disappoint on any level it's dark it's intense it's relatable and it's mind-blowing and i want so much for charlie kaufman to come talk to me and i asked him i asked him right up to his face i said do you want to come talk to me. And I asked him, I asked him right up to his face. I said, do you want to come talk to me on WTF? I said, I can't do it too personal. I said, it doesn't have to be personal, man. I'm a big fan of your work. Let's do it, man. Let's talk about the movie. Let's talk about your other movies. Let's talk about writing. Let's talk about comedy. He wrote with, uh, Louie and the guys and, uh, Smigel and Dino on that Dana Carvey project. I mean, I don't know, man. Sometimes this show gets a reputation that I just sit here and make people cry,

which has only happened a few times. Now I seem to be the one that's crying. But it's a beautiful movie. I would see that when it comes out. I don't know if it's a family film or an upbeat Christmas movie, but it's certainly a movie, if you're a grown-up,

that can handle being a grown-up in all its complicated complicated manifestations i would definitely see this film also i saw sicario is that the name of it i thought that benicio del toro was going to assassinate me through my screen that's how fucking great a performance it was and uh emily blunt amazing um josh brolin amazing all the supporting cast amazing and it's a story about mexican drug cartels and it's fucking leveling man it's it's spectacular i mean i'm again not a pushover not paid to do this good movie trying to be honest uh what else what else what else what else did i watch i feel like there's more oh what the hell was that western i watched with uh with michael fassbender slow west that's

what i saw on the on the plane i liked it it's hard to do a a nice western but i thought that was a kind of an interesting angle and a pretty good western let's you know let's talk to a let's talk to a film director let's go now to my conversation with danny boyle uh the director of the steve jobs movie slumdog millionaireaire, 127 Hours, 28 Days Later. A lot of great films, and it was a great... It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th

at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5pm in Rock City at torontorock.com. Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series,

FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global bestselling novel by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX is Shogun.

A new original series streaming February 27th, exclusively on Disney plus 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. Talk. I'm very excited you're here. Oh, so you had the president here. The president sat right there and he left his cup right here. Then I put glass dome over because that's the kind of oh my god look at it is that serious yeah no it's like that's he he had a cup and he just left it here i i i imagine i don't

know if he was that self-aware but you never know with politicians how self-aware are they in his mind that he's like i'm gonna leave mary in the cup but i didn't know what else to do with it i there's sort of a brilliant idea isn't it yeah it's a little like uh it's a little much but i'm like i what am i i gotta do something so uh yeah he was uh he was in here but tell me like what do you know steve mcqueen well no i mean i've met him a couple of times i i did some kind of not promotion work i did some support work for 12 years a slave when they were on the kind of academy trail last year you know i introduced a couple of screenings and did a q a with him and oh really so i've just said hello to him and stuff like that but i like his films a

lot like but i that hunger movie was referred to me by uh lynn shelton she's a independent filmmaker out of seattle and she said i gotta see that and i just was uh but i was devastated by it but it's interesting that you know you're able to focus in on it being it's about the body and it's about the the the sacrifice and the real meaning of that type of protest to turn the depth of it but for a for a for a you know because he's british and to be able to turn because the the subject is intractable. Yeah. And it is impossible to deal with. Historically.

You can't just do like, it's hard to do one of those movies that would encapsulate the entire struggle. Because it separates people. Right. He made a film that you can all approach as human beings. Right. Which is impossible in Northern Ireland.

It was impossible. And I was astonished at his film, yeah. And I loved 12 Years a Slave slave I thought it was great yeah and that's another thing though to a very specific focus on the body yeah because there is that that one scene where you know the devastating whipping yes and and then you know it really brings home the human element and pain and torture and damage of a person yeah yeah and suffering yeah i mean just when he was hung outside all day and and the way he shot that it's just anyway he is an

uncompromising artist uh it truly and michael is as well which is which is one of the reasons that we cast him as jobs actually because i thought we need that because otherwise we'll get lost in is he nice is he not nice you know you need an actor who's absolutely not gonna do any of that he's just gonna uncompromise a man Michaels like that he just he tones in laser-like on what the truth is and yes cuz after that and he didn't give a fuck what anybody thinks or says it's like they really oh yeah now you'd never worked with him before I had never know I tried to cast him in a couple of movies, but... Which ones? I'd met him, and he was in... I tried to get him in Trance, which is this film I did before.

Right. And the producer I worked with, Christian, he was in a film he did. When you deal with a guy... Because in my mind, as an American or as a film person, people like Fassbender, they just come out of nowhere. You're like, where was this guy? But he was around. Oh, yeah, he was.

Where did he come from originally? Well, he's born in Germany, but brought up in Ireland. Right. So he's a proper European. Right. Who actually avoided Britain. Because, of course, I mean, I know this probably won't interest you. No, it sure isn't.

But it's very interesting, of course, what he comes out of. And I've worked with a lot of Celtic actors, Irish and Scottish actors. There's something about them. Because they're not in the main body or belly of Britain, they're kind of around the edges. And Ireland's had a tortured history with Britain of oppression. You get these extraordinary actors come out of it, I think. And I've worked with a bunch of them.

And they give you something very, very special I don't think you get with the British actors personally. Something connected to the ground. Maybe it is that. The smell, the greens, the working people. I don't know what it is. There's something there, though. I mean, he's interesting because he was in the Tarantino movie.

That's where people probably don't remember him from it, in Glorious Bastards. And he had the touch of the Cary Grant in him there. Oh, yeah, yeah. Which people don't know him from it in glorious bastards and he had the touch of the carrie grant in him though oh yeah which people don't know but he's a very funny man is he's intense so people don't think he's funny right very witty man yeah oh yeah him and winslet together you get him and kate winslet together it's funny well that was the interesting thing that i noticed i went and saw the movie what i couldn't get out of my head when i left was you know i'm familiar with sorkin's

writing and it's very specific it's not necessarily how people talk but there's a lyricism to it there's a rhythm to it and there's a truth to it and if the actor is a good enough actor that you don't think about the fact that no one loads this much information into a sentence speak like that's right but you know where they did speak like that is in like the philadelphia story is in those movies from the 40s so like the thing that you talk about in the is in like the Philadelphia story is in those movies from the 40s. So like the thing that you talk about in the banter, like the thing I walked away with, like it is a lot like the pace of those films from the 40s where it was just back and forth. Very witty, very clever. And because the actors were so focused, it was beautiful.

And it's also a big problem with doing films like this is how do you depict geniuses, very, very, very bright people who actually socially are not that adept often. Right, right. It comes with it. And of course, he does it through language. He does it. And not like vocabulary. they never say anything that's particularly sensationally elaborate, but the eloquence with which they speak and the speed of mind, the speed of thought is a way that you actually realise you're in the presence of people like Wozniak, who's a genius.

But how you depict him, and you just do it through speed of thought, and he does it through rhythm, Sorkin, and that connects it with human beings, because it feels like we talk like that or we wish we did. Right. It's recognizable. It's not in the stratosphere of something that we can't relate to. Right.

It's using something we all know, like language, as a way of depicting stuff we probably don't know about, like algorithms and physics and all the stuff they actually do, these people. Right. And they sort of like just pay a little bit of lip service to that. Occasional mentions of stuff. Right. So youional mentions of stuff. Right. So you were aware of that. How did the relationship with Sorkin begin around this movie and you? They had a director, David Fincher, who did Social Network, which Sorkin also wrote.

It was an amazing film, actually, about the Facebook thing. But they fell out. I don't know what happened to them. They all, anyway. Oh really? Yeah. One of those things? Yeah, one of those Hollywood things. Somebody got mad at something? I'm very lucky I don't live in Hollywood so I get to hear about stuff like this but I never really get to fully understand

it so I keep a kind of naivety about stuff like that. Anyway, so they sent me the script. Scott Rudin, who they call the mean guy who does great stuff. That's what they call him in his office. That's not my description of him. Anyway, he sent it and he said, do you want to do it?

And I said, and I read it and I was amazed. I got that thing you get sometimes where you think, this is so bold, just as a way. What about it? What resonated with you immediately? It's so unexpected, a way of dealing with him, but it's not trying to capture everything. It's just going, no, just look at these three little bits.

Because it's obviously set before the launches of three different products. But just the 40 minutes real time before he goes on stage. And then you never really see him on stage. Because it kind of denies you that. Because you've got that on YouTube anyway. It's all there. So I love that about it. And then there was the father

daughter thing in it which i actually found very moving because it's it's it's difficult stuff some of it but you know i've got two daughters and i when you can relate to something like that just instinctively you just go well that's sort of mine as well you know you kind of begin you begin ownership everybody feels that you know if you have parents or you have children you you know you kind of begin you begin ownership everybody feels that you know if you have parents or you have children you you know everyone has a somewhat strained relationship with a parent and boy is that like that on this and and and you you know and i've made sacrifices in bringing them up you know pursuing a career and stuff and and i hope yeah i hope not as bad as as as is depicted with him, you know, some of the stuff.

Um, but, but it's there. Yeah, I do. But it's interesting because you're dealing with right out of the gate and I didn't realize that's really, that is the way it's broken down. It's broken down into three parts, all of them, the 40 minutes before, uh, a presentation. Yeah. Well, I, I don't even, I, I, I guess I was so caught up in the pace of it. I didn't really even really think of the location of things.

With some flashbacks to the garage, to younger people, you have to throw the garage in. Garages are important, as I know. But right out of the gate, it's hard to like him. You understand historically that he's a genius, and I'm not even sure that we're dealing with... Was it a concern of yours to get the truth of of uh of what happened or the truth of the character how do you where are you sitting with that how do you it's like a real problem with real people and with biopics in general yeah because that you if you're going to do fact stuff just facts they're completely contradictory it depends who you talk to you know you know that it's like

you can't rely on you think well i thought that was true right somebody else says no that's not that's not what happened at all right what you trust is actually something different which you can't doesn't stand up in a court of law i have to say i have to be you know but you trust your own bullshit detector you go you read something you think i think that feels truthful yeah i believe that and then you pass it through a series of other filters which are your actors and your colleagues the people you work with you trust and they also do the same thing and you arrive you hope at something and again it's not you know it can't stand up i know like facts supposedly can but i trust it almost more in a way that you feel

and i believed it and i thought that will and i kept, and it's had a very checkered history. We've had lots of problems on it, but I kept faith in that the whole time, that feeling of, no, I think that feels, that is an artist, Sorkin, actually trying to reach for a man about whom he knows some things, and he's intuiting other stuff. And then there are the rules of drama,

which follow their own course about stuff that emerges when you put characters together. But you read it and you go i believe that i think that's true and i think and it's and it is because i think if it wasn't we the the lawyers at apple would have us over a barrel you know sure so when you say so we're dealing with the human truth that because what you said at the beginning when you have a a banter, like between Winslet and Fassbender, that the characters were very well defined. Yes. And very quickly.

And I guess you have to be very aware with that because these are pretty complex characters who are not emotionally conversational. Yeah, no, that's a good point, yeah. But it has to be there somewhere. Yes. And part of that dynamic between them is as they both get older, you know, Winslet becomes, you know, more insistent that Steve is capable of emotionally connecting. Yes, she is.

And she's also, she's begun to realize that she has allowed him too much. Right, she's carrying the burden. Yeah, she's actually allowed him to behave like that. much right she's carrying the burden yeah she's actually allowed him to behave like that and she's she says herself she's complicit in in the way that he has behaved towards his daughter his first daughter and that he has to make make that make right make that right because all the success in the world and he is about to hit staggering success with the launch of the imac which is the third one you see and he's about to break through to everywhere and change the world, make the dent in the universe he talks about.

And she says, that's no good unless you have made peace with actually those who love you in a way that is more important than all the product people love you. Well, it's kind of brilliant and risky that you hung the resolution of your movie on a fairly intimate moment

that you could could have how many times did you have to i don't want to spoil anything for anybody but you know you get this whole arc of history and a guy that changed the world with his technology and his persistence and his genius for for design and marketing and and uh and and and just uh salesmanship. Yes. But the whole balance of the film emotionally is really hanging on those last two scenes. Yes. And the last scene is not even spoken. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the wonderful thing about stepping behind the structure. You step behind the scenes of three product launches. Because in a way, you're saying, because we're behind the screen, anything could happen. You know? And we make our own. You know, I'm sure those scenes didn't actually take place factually with the clock ticking yeah but they feel true yeah he's very good at devices i think that like you know like

sorkin with his experience with writing television is very good at pacing and also good at adding a level of menace you know just and even if even if just, we always start on time. Yes. That there's a pacing thing. People keep saying that about, we can't start late. We're a computer company. We can't start late.

What time is it? Right. Stuff like that. Yeah, he's very good at that mechanism. Did you get along with him? Sorkin? Yeah. Yeah, I did actually.

He's got a very tricky reputation. Yeah. You know, as being a stickler for no changes and stuff like that. I heard they gave that to him. Did they give that to them? How do you mean give it to him?

Well, I mean, he was able to do this movie with fairly autonomy. No. I mean, it was like, I mean, a director gets final cut if you're lucky. Not that it means that much ultimately. It's a bit of an illusion, that thing. But I have that. I'm lucky enough to have that. But as a writer.

But as a writer, you wouldn't get that. He may have got that on his TV series, but you wouldn't get that on a movie. But no one fucked with the script. It was just you guys. No, he did because he changed it. Well, he did. Yeah, because we would discuss changes when he'd do them. And then when the actors come on board, he's incredibly flexible.

When he knows they've got the rhythm of it and he can hear them, they know it's right. He's actually a theatre's a he's a theater person he's a collaborator he he'd love to make changes so he was on set the whole time yeah we had him there the whole time and i like was that your choice yeah well i like writers being around i try i mean most of them don't want to in the end because it is pretty boring even if you love your work as much as aaron loves his own work you know it still can be very very tedious the amount of repetition and stuff like that. But

no, he was around the whole time, and I loved having him around, yeah. Well, it's interesting that you talk about theatre because you come from theatre, right? Originally, yeah. And it's also interesting in this movie, the other ones aren't quite that, but I want to talk about the other movies and styles

in a second, but a lot of these took place in theaters. Yes, they did. Yeah, I know. I'm sure that's why Rudin, Rudin, who knows, I'm a kind of, originally a theater guy, and I did a play in London

called Frankenstein, which was a bit of a hit, and I'm sure Rudin thought, oh, you know, the whole theater thing, he'll be suitable, stuff like that. But I'm a big,

I got into theater, I actually was a cinema lover but I couldn't where I come from in Britain there was no way you could get into cinema I mean you just couldn't

where was that I come from Manchester which is an industrial town in the north west of England and I come from a working class background and I don't really there's no real root in

I mean there's lots of but you're Irish right yeah originally Irish yeah the family's all Irish but Ridley Scott But Ridley Scott? But Ridley Scott is from a working class background in the northeast of England. And he got in. So there are ways you can do it, but it doesn't look like you can.

And so I went into the theater. It's interesting you bring up Ridley Scott because there is something you guys have in common. That you're incredibly proficient, amazing directors, but you can really adapt to material. efficient amazing directors but but you can really adapt to material that like some directors they're like it's my point of view and then the material will run through my vision yeah but it seems that you guys are open enough and confident enough to take on material and then suit the direction to the material oh good well thank you no i mean does that make sense yeah yeah it does actually i'm i kind of i'm i I love telling different stories if I can, and the terror is that they're all the same.

You think they're all different, and you want them to be different. And actually, somebody comes up to you and says, it's the same film as last time, really, isn't it? And they point out certain features, and you go, oh, right, okay, yeah. But that's when you go, that's my style. A guy's got style.

I suppose. But you're worried about, because you make a big thing about, come and see my films. They'll all be different. A guy's got style. I suppose. But you're worried about, because you make a big thing about, oh, come and see my films. They'll all be different. You'll have a surprise. You know, they'll all feel very different. And of course, in reality, they don't

because you're just forging just one story all the time, unfortunately. Anyway. But is it one story? I mean, do you like, I mean, it seems that you've made some fairly diverse films and there is a,

you seem to be heavy on the denouement and the catharsis, and usually it's not going to end badly. I like what Raymond Chandler said. In every work of art, there must be a quality of redemption, and I believe that. I think it is a redemptive experience, cinema, the journey that you go on, and that if you can engineer it without it being a if you kind of let it emerge from the story without it being fake that's an it's an important ingredient in it that journey that lift you get as you come out of the cinema i like that yeah well that's it well that's a type of cinema right yeah because like in theater that's certainly not always the case no no by no means it's almost not i mean musical theater and stuff like that it's a key ingredient in but uh regular theater no you're right dramatic theater no often not in fact quite quite the

opposite often yeah a lot of times you walk out of the theater going like oh god i'm really bad about myself no i know it's true so you're you're growing up in manchester what kind of family you have big family i've got two sisters um i've got a twin i'm a twin and i come from a very catholic family that's a big big factor in my upbringing it was a very catholic upbringing it was a factor in the way that you you bought it because you had to and then eventually you pushed back yeah and and my mom god bless her yeah um she wanted me to be a priest more than anything in the world is that true oh god why do they want that? I don't understand.

Have you thought it through? Like, why would a mother say, like, this is because they think you're going to be safe? What is it? Yeah, I suppose it's kind of, it sanctifies you. In her eyes, it would sanctify her son, who she loved. And to have him sanctified in her eyes would also, you know. Despite whatever happiness he might want to have in his life. Yeah. It's more important to be sanctified.

But it's also service. She was sure, you know, there was there was a goodness in it. And well, her view of the Catholic Church was that it was a good thing that served the community. There's been a very, very checkered history, which I'm glad my mom wasn't really aware of before she passed away. Apparently, a lot of people were not aware of it. I mean, most people. Anyway. Yeah.

Anyway. So. So. And it's weird. There are a number of film directors very famous ones martin scorsese is one who were going to be priests as well as i believe but were you really going to do it i mean until 14 yeah oh so but i was gonna i was gonna go to the seminary which is where you and then i was i was educated by a priest i was at a school run by priests, a Salesian school. And this one priest said to me, I don't think you're cut out for it, you know.

I'd wait a bit. Why do you think he said that? Because I think he saw that girls, Picasso, all these things were on the horizon, and I was going to just be like, you know, after that. Picasso of all things. Well, you know, art. Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Cigarettes and all the stuff. know the good stuff the temptation yeah all the seven deadlies all the stuff is out there i think you thought he's probably one for that rather than um seems like you're gonna have a different struggle a different uh a different fight ahead of you yeah but it's very interesting because being a priest is like directing because you ponce around really telling everybody what to do and think yeah which is basically what priests do sure and you're kind of like and it is like a congregation making a film it's a lot of people who put their faith in you for for a while right then they often lose it quite quickly take years yeah but they follow you for a bit into the into the wilderness. Unlike a movie, if everyone walked out of a service feeling like it was a theatrical production, I don't know that the church would last that long.

But they went the other way. I mean, that story that you're talking about, redemption, that is what Catholicism is supposed to be about in a way. Yeah, but long term. It's a lot of suffering. You've got to wait a long time for that. And you've got to be about in a way. Yeah, but long term. It's just, it's a lot of suffering. You've got to wait a long time for that. And you've got to really suspend your disbelief for the payoff. Judgment Day, yeah. It's kind of going to be anywhere out there.

Yeah, that's not a big ticket seller. Just wait. It could be a thousand years, could be a hundred. But did you find that when you were in the church, I mean, I don't know what size church you were in as a kid, but like when I traveled through Italy and some of Europe, I mean, those churches were designed to blow peasants' brains out. They were designed to sort of like, oh, my God. Oh, yeah. No, those things.

I mean, Spain and Italy, those things are built by generations of families. And brilliant artists. Yeah. Yeah, but you would spend, like your grandfather and your father and your children would work on the same edifice. You were building it over hundreds of years. I mean, they were extraordinary. No, I didn't come from anything like that. We had a brick built and a fairly functional church.

But, you know, I was expected to be there every day, which I was. And I was an altar boy, you know, serving on the altar and all that kind of stuff. And I used to have to wake the priest up. So I'd go down for seven o'clock mass, and he wouldn't be up, you know, because he was a drinker. I realize all this stuff in retrospect. And I'd have to ring the bell and get him up in order to do the service. And he'd come out, and he'd have slippers on under his cassock. Because I was kneeling down.

I could see at eye level he had his slippers still on. He was ready to go back to bed in a couple of hours. Yeah, he probably did. Take a few confessions, hit the sack. So when did you start to get involved with, you know, theatre or arts in general? I used to do, at school, I used to do the assemblies. Every week there'd be a morning assembly on the Monday and there'd'd be bits of kind of i guess they were kind of like displays or and i used to do bits of drama for them i'd and i'd organize them i didn't realize that was directing basically you're organized people do you do this you do that and we used to do these skits about the catholic church actually

satirical skits yes yeah and see what we could get away with because you know you again we were seeing how far you could push it before you got dragged into the headmaster's office about what you were doing. Sure. So I used to do that. And then the English, I had a brilliant English teacher. You know, it's the usual thing. Yeah. Who just, you know, introduces you to Shakespeare and, you know.

What was it? What was the one thing that made you go like, oh, my God. Oh, I think with him him it was actually funny enough it was that i went to an all boys school taught by priests this guy was a secular guy yeah but he taught us jane austen and one of the worst jane austen novels which is called north anger abbey which is just a terrible novel yeah and he's got 30 16 year old lads there yeah and he's persuading you of the genius of Jane Austen. And he persuaded me.

And I remember thinking at the time, I looked around my mates, and I thought, this guy is amazing, because he's somehow bringing everybody together on this. Anyway, it's a lovely ending, this story. There's a bit of redemption in this story, because he encouraged me to do drama, and I went to college and did drama.

And then I had a few successes in the theater and i and i directed eventually at the royal shakespeare company and i he'd retired by then and i wrote to him and i said do you want to come and see a production i've done at one of your you know i'm one of your pupils from long ago and i've done a production at the royal shakespeare company and he came down and watched it and it was a and i've done some dodgy productions but this one was a really good one yeah this one worked right really worked and he came along and he was so proud it was really nice you know yeah and he died about a year later passed away about a year later so i was really proud i did that because he was like he kind of changed my life and it was nice to actually show him that you know because he loved the Royal Shakespeare Company.

And to have one of his pupils directing on the Royal Shakespeare Company in Stratford was pretty good. So it was a pretty good day. That's amazing. And he came backstage. Yeah, he did all the stuff, you know, all the stuff you do. So it was lovely. Yeah, it was really nice. That's a beautiful story.

So you went to college for theatre? No, I went to a regular, like we call them universities, and I went to not a prestigious one at all, one in North Wales, Bangor in North Wales, which is kind of like attached to England on the side of England. It's a country on the side of England. I went there and we did a lot of drama in English and lots of acting.

I did acting at first, and then I started to realise what directing was and I started to do plays with other students. How were you as an actor? Loud. Which is all you needed to be really at that time. Really loud and confident. Overconfident.

Because I have not many skills other than the volume. So I began to direct and i began to tell people what to do which you get addicted to it's a terrible trait in directors yeah there's a certain real confidence in leadership that it has to i guess eventually occur depending on what kind of director you are yeah i guess it must take a bit of time to learn how to be diplomatic and respectful and still go what you want done yeah it involves cunning that yeah you have to have a certain amount of low animal cunning uh-huh to get what you want when you can't go about it just with brutalism alone you know what you have to use other techniques to get there yeah i guess

some directors as they get more respected and deliver enough uh uh you know money making product can become pretty brutal they can there is a there is that's a character trait amongst some directors it is i don't share that yeah um but it was interesting doing the jobs because he clearly had that you know there was an element of that in him as he tried to change the world he did it through slashing and burning everything in his path you know and refusing to acknowledge the past which is you see in the film on a personal level with his daughter and obviously on a on a on a on a product level with his resistance to Woz and Woz wants him to acknowledge the Apple II and that he's standing on the shoulders of giants. But his only focus is the future, you know, and trying to change the mindset about computers.

So, all right, so where do you go right after college? You start working in theatre and television or what? I went to – I got a job in theatre. I wrote away to a theatre company who toured britain yeah quite a political company called joint stock theater company and i asked if they had a job and i got a job as a driver and theater is very it promotes internally if you get on well you you can become almost an apprentice to what you want to be right within the within the system itself because it's all then about you know you just move on to job to job to job.

That's a classic Shakespearean sort of model. Everyone's involved, the collaboration begins driving. Driving, yeah, driving the truck, sweeping the stage, making the tea, all that kind of stuff. And then you wake up and I became an assistant director, and then you get to do your own show eventually at some point. So I did a few shows like that. Shakespeare? I've never done a Shakespeare. Never? Itpeare never only one i've never done i've done i've done ibsen ben johnson

all those guys but never done a shakespeare no why i don't know never really been offered one never kind of had the absolute confidence to do one it is like a benchmark for a theater director it's like can you do it you know um so no I've never done one yet but watch this space. Who knows? I might get offered one. Do you still direct theatre? I do do occasionally. Yeah, I directed a,

I was just mentioning that we did the show Frankenstein in the National Theatre in London which was with Benedict Cumberbatch in who people know about now

and Johnny Lee Miller and they swapped the parts of Frankenstein and the Creature every night. They kind of switched parts. Oh really? Which was very cool, yeah. Was it stripped stripped down was it more of a no it was big

production i mean it was like um sparse but big yeah yeah so was there makeup with the monster and yeah there were stitches and stuff like that but it was interesting it's because it was it was actually the first um it was the first time as far as could find, that the story had ever been told from the creature's point of view. So it's like Grendel. Which is weird. Yeah. You never kind of, it's such an extraordinary character in our mythology now, in our cultural mythology. And yet it had never been shown from his perspective.

Yeah. The sensitivity of the. And also somebody being born into adulthood. Because that's weird. It was like a birth, but an adult is being born uh-huh um so that was a fantastic process for the stage to to illustrate that story on the stage oh that's interesting and it was well received it was good yeah it's a bit of a hit and then when do you start working with the cameras so i went to northern ireland i i couldn't get here so 75 yeah um and i um was it gnarly no no not 75 85 okay 85 to 89 i was there i yeah it was it was it wasn't the worst time there but it was you know there was tension serious tension it's an amazing place northern ireland because the bbc

i got a job with the bbc making television drama with them there and they the people are the loveliest people I love Ireland I was just there I don't you know I you know I'm a Jew from Eastern European background but I go to Ireland there's like part of me is like I think I'm home I don't know how is that possible well it's good it's it's it's why they produce such great writers people talk they. They tell you stories. The sense of chat. Yeah. The crack, as they call it. It was just such an important part of my life. The landscape is just beautiful. It's very beautiful, yeah.

Anyway, but there was this terrible, and I must admit, when I left, I thought, I don't think they'll ever change that. I can't see how it will ever get resolved, the differences. And astonishingly because it's rare to say this about politicians they did they changed and they found an accommodation with each other and it's you know there are still some problems but the landscape has changed it's unrecognizable now you know the and they've managed to establish some harmony amongst the communities which is astonishing so but i but i learned camera stuff there yeah and you you worked for the bbc in northern ireland doing tv dramas one hour tv drama and working with irish actors well yeah lots of irish actors yeah maybe that's where it all began yeah

and that yeah no that's probably right i'd say it did yeah and and you there was something about their i guess it's probably their humanity really because like you know when you talk the way you're talking about fast binder does he pronounce it fast bender or fast binder fast bender fast bender so because like it's interesting he's germany grew up in ireland but there there there's a one of the things with actors and i think with very well trained actors is that sometimes there's there's not a lot of uh interior life yeah yeah occasionally yeah you could. Yeah, you could, yeah. But that's not necessarily a negative thing. I mean, their talent is their talent.

I mean, there's obviously talent, and some of them are more characters than others, but I think what we're trying to pinpoint before is that in Ireland, that just by nature of being a citizen of that place, there's an inner life in a way. And a poetry. Yeah.

They're ordinary poets. They always say that. A slight darkness to the soul. Yeah, which will come with the poetry. But they're ordinary poets. They feel like they're not. It's not a class structure. Right.

Society. Right. They feel like ordinary people. And yet they're poets as well at the same time. They've always had that. And I love that about them. Whereas you often, to find that kind of romantic in a british actor it's often often in the closet and you have to kind of bring it out encourage it out

it's always there with the celtic actors i think right it's right up front yeah you get it with them yeah i mean if you if you work with them well and it's why when they often it's not true with michael but often when they leave their accent behind they sacrifice a lot because it's wrapped in with the accent as well. I think what you're talking about really hits on it is that when there's a class structure that, you know, in England, certainly that you do have some of that organic kind of, it's a unique human connection of conversation that happens in the lower classes. Yes. And then once you start moving up, there's that sort of stiff upper lip of shit. It's more careful. Yeah, much more careful.

It's much more careful because you worry about the impression you make. Or saying the wrong thing. All that kind of stuff. Losing power. All that stuff kicks in, yeah. Wow. And we're riddled with it in Britain,

in England especially, and still. Whereas Scotland, which has just elected its own party to virtually dominate, the Scottish Nationalist Party, which is campaigning for independence. It's an extraordinary, will be a seismic moment if it happens, where the United Kingdom, as it's called, is wrenched apart. Scotland has not taken part. Scotland has begun their own conversation about their future,

which is very exciting to witness. It's very worrying for England, because we'll be a much smaller place without the Scots. And we cling hold of a bit of Ireland, Northern Ireland. But Ireland remains a huge... I mean, so many people are Irish in Britain anyway. I mean, working class areas, because the immigration into Britain from Ireland was enormous.

And my parents came in the 50s and many, many, many, many other people. To make a better life. Yeah. Well, I noticed one thing about Ireland. There's not a lot of immigrants coming in. Well, it's kind of reversed, I believe. It's actually, it has changed because it's actually, yeah, it's reimagined itself in a more almost metropolitan way. Dublin's quite, Dublin's more metropolitan yeah. Dublin's more metropolitan, though.

And they encouraged artists to come to... So there has been a... It has gone back the other way a little bit. But are they mostly expats or people that have familial connection to Ireland? I mean, I didn't get the sense that there's a lot of people from other countries sort of flocking in.

There's still sort of an island issue there. You know what I mean? People with cultural heritage there yeah oh Dublin's great it's a beautiful hotel it's the nicest hotel I stayed in my hotel my entire trip fantastic that's great so so you start making movies what what inspired you to make you know that you could make movies well I don't know it's arrogance really isn't it I guess but like who are your guys who are your directors that you were like, this seems possible to me and this is what I want to do? Well, I used to go to this.

Obviously, I was like 16, 17. And I was in search, as you always are, of sex, really. Yeah. Anywhere you can find. Still, that doesn't stop. It doesn't stop suddenly. But I used to go to the cinema because there was someone off of there. And I looked older than 16.

Because in Britainain to get into an x film or a film an adult film you had to be 18 and i looked older than my mates so i used to buy the tickets and we'd all sneak in but i used to go to this art cinema in manchester called the aben cinema thank god for those art cinemas i know and they used to show these incomprehensible films that i really didn't understand yeah but they often had lashings of sex in them. Yeah. Like what, the Italian movies? Oh, yeah, a lot of movies.

French movies, Spanish movie, Nada. I remember seeing Nada. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. There were lots of them. Anyway, but what I've learned subsequently, anyway, I did love them as well. Yeah. There was something about them that I,

there was something very, very special about them. What's he called? Topo, El Topo. Yeah, El Topo. What's he called? Topo. El Topo. Yeah, El Topo. Yeah, El Topo. I remember seeing that. But I've subsequently learned from his biography, I think, that Morrissey from the Smiths was also there at exactly the same time.

Wow. Because I'm exactly the same age as him. And he was obviously on the same sad trajectory of looking for something that wasn't there in your life and we found it in the Eben cinema the dark searchers

yeah the poets anyway so I did that and then and then oh the big thing was I saw Clockwork Orange

oh yeah before it was banned because it was banned in Britain well that's interesting Clockwork Orange because it seems to me that if I think about it

just impulsively now that that sort of informs Trainspotting a little bit. Big time. Stylistically. Oh, big time, yeah. It was a huge kind of like, I mean, we copied

large sections of his film. Oh, really? And the way you borrow as a homage, as anything, whatever. But mostly in the cutting and the humour, right? Yes.

Yes, it had that kind of sense of that black humour. So that was a big factor, seeing that. And then, as I said, I went into theatre, but I always wanted to do cinema, and I continued that relationship with cinema. And through the Northern Ireland process, I began to learn how to use a camera at the BBC there.

And then eventually I got a movie called Shallow Grave. These guys had written the script, and they were looking for a director, and they'd had a couple of conversations with people which they hadn't enjoyed and i went in and i told the truth which is i said have you've stolen large sections of blood simple and simply and simply changed the background and the writer sort of nodded yes that was true and i said i think we should do more stealing from other places and no we we found an affinity of the fact that we were going to make something for the new energy in cinema that there was in independent cinema, which was both original but delicious as well.

What year was that? That was like… 94. Yeah. Yeah, 94, yeah. So, okay. So the Coens had started to make their first couple of movies and the new independent cinema was sort of happening in America, a lot of it. Yeah, and it was delicious because it was interesting and it was also accessible and attractive and had a wit and a scurrilousness that was like delicious, like I say.

Right, and what was your relationship with Irving Welsh in Trainspotting? How did that come about? Well, we made this film, Chalagrave, which did quite well. Right. It was a big hit in France. It's weird. The French love films where friends fall out with each other and start killing each other. They love films about, you know, a bunch of friends disintegrating.

This is pre-redemption. Yes, there wasn't much redemption in that. There was a bit of happiness happiness but it was entirely selfish um but then we we read this book train spotting right which was a cult book around scotland at the time not many copies of it around and we said oh really oh yeah this was a very small book huh um it's a very difficult book to read wonderful book brutal it's like joyce it's like you know it's like finnegan's wake or... With heroin. Not Ulysses, but with heroin. It's just like a masterpiece, I think. Anyway, we said we're going to make this as our next film.

And they said we were crazy. Because we'd had this hit. It had done very well. And everybody wanted us to make another one, as they do. But we wanted to use the advantage we'd got from that success to make something that appeared very uncommercial. Because drug movies basically don't really attract an audience. But we wanted to make a film that actually showed partly the truth of it,

which is that people don't take drugs because they're stupid. They take drugs because actually they supply something in their lives that is necessary and often enjoyable. They're addicted. And they get addicted. Yeah. Or certain ones of them do. Yeah.

Anyway, so it was a fascinating process setting that up yeah yeah and and the comedy of it i mean the balance of the the empathy necessary to humanize you know what it really is you know desperate drug addicts at times yeah uh you know is is tricky because they are the most because they're so at the whim of this of their of their needs there there is a humanity to it oh god yeah they're so at the whim of their needs, there is a humanity to it. Oh, God, yeah. They're desperate. Yeah.

And they'll do anything. They're naked in front of you. Always. Yeah. And you relate to that in front of them because you think, thank God. But for the grace of God, that might be me. Yeah, right. Yeah.

But to sort of engage with humor and the pathos necessary to not romanticize it is not easy. Right. But, you know, very quickly itize it, it's not easy. Right. But, you know, very quickly it became like, you know, this is hilarious. These people are troubled and there's a slapstick to it. But you don't walk out of there thinking like, I got to do some dope. I know.

I know. And we had that struggle early on. There were a lot of critics said we were encouraging the use of, you know. Everybody wants to shit the bed and let a kid die. Yeah know it's like you know i know so it was it so it had a kind of it had an internal it's weird you know some of some of the films you make they have an energy in them themselves yeah that's almost beyond everybody else but i think you're you're very good at letting that happen that you know identifying that and let the film be defined by

that instead of fighting that and and and having a a structure that that like we can't you know i have to control this right yeah well there's a great uh what's his name um uh bertolucci said you should always leave a door open on your set for real life to come in because you can get too occupied with the whole right edifice of it and he always said you should make sure and and that was very much the feel of of train spotting is that we would allow it in i don't mean literally like mumblecore realism or something like that right but you would allow in the ridiculousness of real life to burst through sometimes yeah i mean i think it does a lot. And I think that the amazing thing about your career is, after Trainspotting, you do a peculiar movie

with Life Less Ordinary, which is completely like, what's happening with this guy? Is he still searching for his voice? So that's an example. So what I learned on that movie, so we were very pleased with ourselves. We thought the film was very Coen-esque. Oh, right, right. So you had the Coens again had yeah and anytime you do anything that's ask yeah you're

in trouble because the audiences are stupid they go well this is cohen-esque i'll go and watch the original rather than this one you know i'll go and watch the original guys it's like yeah hitchcock they felt that or cohen-esque people the critics saw that no well it wasn't very popular film nobody went to see it although no, no, and this is true. There's a rule, and it's probably something that you hang on to, like a life jacket when you're droning, that when you have a movie that's a big hit, there's always one territory that it doesn't work in.

Conversely, this is the life jacket bit, when you have a disaster, there's always one territory where it appears to work for some reason. Right.eless ordinary was number one in belgium for three weeks which is amazing for us because it was a disaster everyone else i don't know i think they would just had a thing for cameron diaz actually that's the truth of it and so you found sort of like ewan mcgregor was a was a good leading man for you for a couple movies oh he was yeah wonderful guy he's a lovely lovely man and then you go and of movies. Oh, he was, yeah. Wonderful guy. He's a lovely, lovely man. And then you go, and then you do The Beach with DiCaprio,

which was, there's big expectations on that movie. Yeah, we got a bit of a kicking on that movie. You know, you just get a kicking. And now and again, it's quite good for you. Learn a lot. You know, you learn a lot. Otherwise, you're condemned to repeat your mistakes. But you're allowed to keep working.

Yes, I know, somehow. But that's a real testament to your talent. I think that because you did such a diversity of films so efficiently that they're like you know this guy boy will come around i'm just more persistent i can put up with more shit than most people you just got to keep going that's that irish thing a lot of it is persistence seriously you just got to keep going sometimes so the first you know after um uh train spotting uh 28 days later was the big hit yes that did very well yeah i mean i get i went to see it and i'm not even a zombie guy i know i wasn't a zombie guy either how did you become a zombie guy because the writer was alex garland he's a he knew everything about the zombies you know he was absolutely an aficionado just and i

couldn't be bothered really i tried to watch some of them and I didn't get it really but we had this idea and we wanted to make them in a different way and we set out to make yeah we set out to make a film

that in a funny kind of way wasn't about zombies and we kept saying we refused to call them zombies and but what were they called what did you call them

the infected yeah the infected right you know it seems a very small difference but it was an important one to me and it doesn't matter what you think the world then takes over and that's happens with movies yeah the world grabs your movie and they decide what it's about weirdly and they decided right this is the renaissance this is the

beginning of the renaissance of zombies i think it was walking dead and it was suddenly it was everywhere after yeah you know you did that to us. I know. It's your fault. You brought them back. But what was the humanity that you saw in that? That was not a redemptive movie necessarily either. No, it was about a family, really, a weird mixture of family. These four people brought together who travelled around Britain trying to save themselves.

So it was a kind of, that for me was, there was a wonderful bit in it. We had a great couple of Irish actors, again. Cillian Murphy played the lead, amazing. And a guy called Brendan Gleeson is one of the great, great elderly actors. He's not that elderly, he's in his 60s now, I think, or late 50s. And he, yeah, he was the redemptiveness for me. You know, because he gets infected and he makes sure he saves his daughter. Even though he's infected, he sacrifices himself.

So there were moments of redemption in it. No, that's, yeah, that's a decent scene. So you saw that as a theater person and as a guy who loves a good story, that the human element has to sort of transcend somehow. Always. You've got to do that, really. You've got to find the humanity in it. And you're always looking, yeah, you're always to do that you've got to find the humanity in it and you're always looking yeah you're always

looking for that because you know in the two hour journey of a film you can do so much with style and cleverness and all that

but if the heart is not there it's very very tough but I also like the difference I think there is a difference because in your films

and certainly as you grow as an artist that redemption doesn't necessarily mean a perfectly happy end no not necessarily. There's a possibility.

Yes, yes. There's something that makes you feel. Right. That you can make you feel good about yourself. Yeah, and even in Swamp Dog, the menace of that movie. And I think that's a great testament, in my mind, to how you evolved as a director, being being able to find the humanity and you seem to have a tremendous respect for writers visions which i think is is uh amazing but that you know

stylistically you're not going to sort of just pigeonhole yourself and then when you look at swim dog millionaire you start to think like not only is are you collaborative as a director but but you know you were willing to incorporate and I imagine employ many people from Indian cinema to sort of get that feeling of Bollywood and to really make that work on dance numbers and everything else. It was almost like it must have been the most profound collaboration you've had. Oh, it was amazing, because we'd made a foreign film before. We'd been to Thailand to make The Beach,

and we'd taken hundreds of crew from the uk and it's a bit it's as a model for making films it doesn't work that anymore it's almost like a past era like a colonialism in a way right just to go in like this is the location the price is right yeah right move that right give you all this money and like apocalypse now yeah it's kind of and what we decided to do with storm dog and it's a lot easier to do with someone because it has got a huge industry um bollywood is a huge industry there we took hardly anybody there were eight of us went and we everybody else was from indian cinema and the actors the the crew and and it was wonderful and you have to allow yourself to give yourself over to this city you can't control this city it's one of the world's again you have to let the life happen yeah and it just comes in i mean you can try and hold it back

why would you like some crazy guy but you're not going to succeed so yeah and it's like for me like you know i've gone through periods of my life where i was more cynical and more dark and and and was uh i would not uh indulge uh the the happy ending. I thought that's lying. But as you get older, you're sort of like, the heart needs to be fed a little bit. It does. And if it's not being fed out in the world, maybe that's part of what movies are for, like you're saying.

And I hate it when it's cheap. And I remain cynical about when it's cheap and too easy, like that, because it should be earned. And when it's earned, then it really is something for everyone when it's cheap and too easy like that because it should be earned and when it's earned it's then it really is something for everyone when it's earned and you could just get somebody you couldn't help but end on a dance number right well it was like um you just had to have it we hadn't had a rigged dance number in the film and it's anyway if you're in india and you go to indian cinema everybody experiences everything through the dance right i mean it's just like pop music here you just it's part of your it's part of your expression it's just how you think right in your brain is you thinking dance

you know there they just do you know everybody relates like that and the kids we were auditioning the kids and they show you dance moves oh you had to do it you know and so you've got to do it yeah and you did it for the credits basically yes we Yes, we put it under the credits. You've got to honor the nation. Yes. So you go from there to, like, this is another weird choice. It's like now we've got a guy stuck in the rock. Oh, yeah. Aaron Ralston, 127 hours.

What drew you to that project after something as grand as Swamp Dog Millionaire? It was the change, really. Because it was on such a massive scale, working in Mumbai, to suddenly be trapped in a box with this guy. So you like the challenge of it? Oh, God, yeah. Because it is a big challenge. Especially the way we wanted to tell the story,

which is hardly to leave the canyon until he does. So literally be immersed in the experience with him. Was that your idea? That was the idea, yeah. But your idea to shoot it that way? Yes, it was, yeah. As opposed to sort of maybe go to the panicky family or to to sort of yeah his book is his but the book that it's based on is is in alternating chapters between the family at home

and and worrying about him and stuff like that and that we decided to exclude all that and just focus on the experience in the canyon itself so that when he got released from it you would be you would get some understanding of why i always thought that you'll never really understand if it's conventional you'll never really understand the experience of how you can go and it's still hard to yeah but i think if you were if you were there for six days with him you'd think just we i wanted people to think do it just do it just do it how do you step back and there's an amazing moment franco is incredible in that film there's an amazing moment where he does cut his arm off and he steps back and the acting franco does at that moment where he steps away from something he's been chained to for six

days and about to die and so he's released part let a part of himself go in order to be released from it it's a brilliant bit of action yeah yeah and it was it's a it's a hard movie yeah yeah it is people find it tough to watch so i remember going i was really thrilled so we were promoting it and they they decided to do it ironically given the subjects of our recent film they decided to do a screening of it at the pixar so i went up there and um i was so thrilled to be arriving at pixar because i love their movies it was just unbelievable. So we drove up, and I turned up for a Q&A after the film. So the film was showing,

so I turned up like 10 minutes before the end, and there were ambulances outside Pixar, outside the screening room. A couple of people had fainted. Oh, my God. So we did have a lot of people fainting. But it's weird because the fainting, which feels like very shocking and worrying i was with i was in some cinemas and people would faint and they'd be carried out

and i saw them outside and one particular woman i saw her wake up and she went she looked at me and said oh hello she was fine right she went back in she just went back into the cinema she just reached a point where she just kind of just lost consciousness for a bit. And then she was fine. Well, there are those people that can't see certain things. Yeah, so they block it out. And that's what happens. And usually they tend to avoid those things.

But obviously it's a testament to the power of the movie. Like, this is my problem. I got to go finish the film. I got to see if I can not do it again. So the Jobs movie, in your mind, I tell you, that third act is pretty amazing. Isn't it? Well, yeah, because it's genuine. You can like the guy's ambition and his persistence, but as a human being, he's almost contemptible.

Yes. There's a certain, he's difficult to like, isn't he? Yeah. I mean, there are people who are devoted to him, but by the evidence, once you present it, and certainly in Michael's performance, which is uncomprom's fine it's difficult within the realms of cinema to find him likable right as such but then he begins to become a part he begins to be pulled apart and you begin to find that he begins to be you know it's it is shakespearean it's like he has a flaw and fortunately he he arrives at a place where he can acknowledge it and he can hold his hand up.

I wonder if that happened in real life. Does anyone know? I think you can, as much as we know, I think you can see that he did mellow. Yeah. And he had, it's not our concern in this film, he obviously had a family. He had three children and a very successful marriage. And so he clearly did mellow. And from what we do know is that Lisa was, although she, her relationship with him was still volatile, she became part of that family and they were reconciled. Yes. whole movie you know outside of all this changing the world and the images of lennon and einstein and and the sort of his knowledge of the power of what he was about to do or what he was destined to

do it all pales you know nothing was going to resolve the story like that thing on the roof in the moment with her backstage yes and he's got a kind of and it's unspoken in a way if he says one thing about it and then you got it you got it that was the idea because sorkin is obviously all dialogue and the whole thing is just a tidal wave of incredible dialogue yeah and but then it's all stripped back because there's nothing more for him to say well whose decision was that that was our decision really we moved towards that with you had a discussion about it yeah we wanted it to become more stripped back as the film went on it becomes more and more stripped back and eventually you're left with there's nothing much i mean he does say

one thing which is when he holds his hand up effectively to acknowledge that despite all the amazing products that he's made which are perfect as we know in many ways he is himself poorly made so and that's a beautiful moment and this is is similar in theme to the Facebook movie, isn't it? The lineage. You can see the lineage. About communication, emotion, distance. These people who make these things that enable the world to communicate instantly and perfectly with each other

are themselves poorly made. Sure. And what were some of the biggest problems you had to overcome in making this film about Steveve jobs oh god there was we we lost the studio we oh really yeah we had a because there was it was it was the time of the whole sony hack you know right right sure and seth rogan's battle with the north koreans and he was and all that was going on and uh so it was very very complicated and we've not it's not been easy because there's been a lot of forces that prefer you not to make the film, really,

because he belongs to a very powerful company, which has control issues about keeping the control of the image and the story of him and the myth of him. But it's really important to tell these stories because governments are frightened of these companies now. They're so powerful so quickly that I see it in Britain. Uber, which was only launched in 2009, is already worth $50 billion. And it comes into Britain and the government's like this.

We don't know what to do. They're upsetting the local industry, but we don't know what to do. We don't want to resist progress and such prosperity. And so if governments are like that and the law we know is manipulable depending on how rich you are therefore artists should write about these guys and so for sorkin to write about these two guys so closely together like that is an important it's an important element that america and sorkin is one of your national writers i think think. He really is. Absolutely. And he should address these big, big guys.

And in a way, what he's doing is it's not scurrilous. It's not defaming people. It's actually bringing them back down to earth. And actually, they become part of us again, you know, because they do have a flaw like we all have. I think that's true. And we've got stuff to work on. And I can certainly appreciate that. And so through all the problems, you and Sorkin remained, you know, solid and united.

Yeah, we kind of kept it very simple. There's part of you have to be almost naive in your belief. Yeah. If you get too sophisticated, you can, it won't happen. Right. You kind of remain almost childish in a belief that it can happen. And if we keep going, it'll work. And you do keep going like that. And Apple, did they lay down preconditions?

Or what eventually led them to say, like, okay, we're okay with it? I don't think they ever did, actually. That's the honest truth of it. And I thought Seth was great. Wasn't he? You know, it was a good role for him. Oh, he is. Tell me something about Seth.

Yeah. So he's playing a guy called Steve Wozniak, it was a good role for him. Oh, he is. Tell me something about Seth. Yeah. So he's playing a guy. Yeah. Called Steve Wozniak. Yeah. Who is an engineering genius. Yeah. It's an overused word, genius.

Yeah. Especially when you're promoting films. Right. But he is an engineering genius. Okay. And he believes, he says to Jobs, you can be decent and gifted at the same time. And we got this actor who's known as a comedian and he's a comedy genius. Yeah.

Seth Rogen. Yeah. He's also like Wozniak. He's a decent man. Yeah. He really is. Yeah. And so when he says that in this performance, you get that sense of a genius there.

Someone very special, albeit in a slightly different area of the drama world. But he's also a decent person and he's decent and gifted at the same time and when he says that to him it really it really begins to pull apart jobs i think oh yeah he begins to see some of his you know deficiencies oh yeah that relationship and the little thing that they say to each other yeah that the little he sorkin's very good at these repetitions of things that that really ground characters and interactions yeah uh and also the guy who plays um well obviously wins what's amazing and the guy from uh a serious man who played uh stillbound really great another you

know just all heart oh my god what a performance oh yeah really stunning astonishing man yeah there's some great acting in it, you know, and it's a great story as well, and it's nonstop, and you go from the kind of like, he's a punk at the beginning, almost like tearing apart everything that stands in his way,

and then he goes through this second part that's guile and cunning. Oh, Jeff Daniels has, what's his name? And he has that scene with Jeff Daniels. John Scully. Yeah, Jeff Daniels is like so great. He's such a, like like he's not underrated but he's it's always good to see him in films yes it is and what's the new project you're working on

train spotting 2 no yes really yeah they're all back the ones that live they will be oh good and what's it called well if we can get james cameron to agree it's called t2 oh really come on no seriously we're doing it it's 20 years later okay and they're still together and we've got this amazing script by the original writer john hodge who did the original screenplay okay and yeah we're going to do that next all right well it's great talking to you i know you got to get going and uh thanks for coming by mark thank you it was lovely did we pack some stuff into that? I believe we did.

Good conversation. Good guy. Good movie. And I mean, I'm not, I don't have to say that. I'd go see it again. I'm going to probably have to see it again. Because the girl didn't see it. So, what do we got?

What do we got? Oh, yeah. The music remix of my riffage on today's show was done by Paul Buck. Check him out at facebook.com slash paulbuckmusic. Go to wtfpod.com for all your WTF pod needs. Here's a little heads up, more of Brian Jones' WTF hand-thrown mugs are on sale this Monday, December 14th at 12 noon Eastern, 9 a.m. Pacific. Make sure you go to brianrjones.com at that time if you want one. Oh, the holidays are upon us. They're upon us. Can I play some fucking music? Thank you. Boomer lives! © transcript Emily Beynon guitar solo © transcript Emily Beynon It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th

at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com. Calgary is a city built by innovators. Innovation is in the city's DNA. And it's with this pedigree that bright minds and future thinking problem solvers are tackling some of the world's greatest challenges from right here in Calgary. From cleaner energy, safe and secure food, efficient

movement of goods and people, and better health solutions, Calgary's visionaries are turning heads around the globe, across all sectors, each and every day. Calgary's on the right path forward. Take a closer look how at calgaryeconomicdevelopment.com.