WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 663 - Brian Grazer

Episode Date: December 14, 2015

Super-producer Brian Grazer joins Marc in the garage for an incredible conversation about what it takes to get stuff done in Hollywood. Brian is responsible for dozens of the most beloved movies and television shows of the past three decades, everything from Splash to Empire. He and Marc talk about the intersection of creativity and commerce, and why the most important part of the equation is usually curiosity. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated

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The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com. all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fucksters what the fuck sticks what the fucking ears what's happening what is happening this is mark maron this is wtf my podcast welcome to it if you're new to it, Brian Grazer is on the show today.defining for you, not him, but maybe for him, movies and TV shows. It's insane. It's insane.

All the way back to Night Shift and Splash, the first couple of movies that I think he produced solo, all the way through. I mean, he did The Doors, Backdraft, CB4, Apollo 13, The Nutty Professor, Ransom. I mean, like, I could keep going. A Beautiful Mind, Blue Crush, 8 Mile, Friday Night Lights, The Missing. Jeez, man. The Da Vinci Code, American Gangster, great movie, Frost Nixon.

I mean, it goes on. And it's astounding the amount of work that this guy has done. Amazing. And he's only like 12 years older than me. He put a book out. And sometimes these are, this is how I get into it. This is how I get someone over here is they're doing some talking for a thing they got going on so brian's got this book a curious mind the secret to a

bigger life it sounds like a somewhat inspirational book uh but it kind of is i mean this guy brian grazer this i'll tell you something i've never There's never been a WTF quite like this. I've never talked show business with a producer of his stature in the way that we talked about show business. I mean, if you think like he's done great films, he's done films that were just moneymakers, but also well-made. But it's a very diverse filmography and tv you know he's involved in empire then on tv 24 it's just kind of amazing but he is sort of uh it was an interest it was an interesting conversation in the way that you know business and you know just how business and creativity uh coexist and and in his case with you know in one human being I mean it's it's just it's amazing

how much he's done and and and it's also like what you hear with Brian Grazer it's just a compulsion almost to work and and and to be able to follow through on things and and then maintaining you know good relationships he seems like a decent guy i mean you hear stuff about producers that you know they could be hard asses or whatever but this guy seems like a decent guy diplomatic guy and very persistent and constantly asking questions you know obviously he's made some you know blockbuster movies and he and he's looking to make money but he he's sort of compulsive about finding things that are interesting to people. And he's sort of on the pulse of that. He's just a curious guy. Like, it's one of those rare things where this book, which is a collection of basically experiences.

He's had conversations with people that inspired him in his search for things, but just some fascinating stories and just that side of the business. I don't think I've had as thorough and as an interesting and amazing conversation about show business from a guy who is major show business and a decent dude. So look forward to that momentarily.

Also, I want to say hi to all my unique listeners, unique people. Like I, because I mentioned, you know, I've been reading some emails from people in odd places. I got it. This was sort of exciting in its own way. This is hello and thank you hi mark i've been really enjoying your podcast especially hearing about the interesting and varied places you have listeners writing to you from i'm an archaeologist working in england my job mostly involves working in the middle of a field mostly on my own you're one of my favorite comedians and listening to your podcast really makes excavating a roman ditch or an iron age pit fly by she sent me some pictures

and uh thanks rebecca thank you rebecca if you find anything cool take a picture or send me the actual thing rebecca from the pit don't i won tell anybody, but I'd like something from a Roman pit. All right? Okay, deal. So, creative people, just keep being creative. I mean, that's something this Brian Grazer episode will sort of push through. So many of us work towards, and i don't even want to include myself in it yeah there's this idea that's sort of like you know i i just want to be positive i just want

to be happy i just want to be grounded i want these things you can be those things but like for christ's sake don't be them before you fucking you know found your passion before you fucking you know cut loose and you know follow that goddamn weird compulsive energy that chaotic creative energy or compulsive sort of i got to get things done energy the goal is not to be positive and happy all right if everyone was positive and happy and well grounded there'd be no art there'd be no amazing there'd be no great that stuff comes from a different place i mean you can have those other things once you've sort of you know you got once you harness your creativity your passion your drive but don't let that be the means to an end at the uh at the at the price of the passion

and drive and creativity don't do that or else all the it all goes away all the greatness the art goes away you can create a good environment for that stuff to move through you maybe i don't know maybe i'm talking out my ass but i just don't i don't want to live in the world where you go up to somebody hey hey dude did you see that thing that everyone's seeing yeah i did see it how was it it's okay really just okay yeah it's just okay wasn't great uh there's no great anymore what i'm gonna be in chic for a few days, I'm doing a thing, maybe I'll, you know what, maybe I'll do an intro from Chicago and tell you what I'm doing in Chicago, no live shows, I'm not even going to be specific about when I'm going to be in Chicago, but I'm going to be in Chicago, but yeah, you know what, I'm just going to do that, I'm just going to tease that like that,

But yeah, you know what? I'm just going to do that. I'm just going to tease that like that. Right now, I'm going to talk to an amazing dude in show business. As I said before, he's got a book out, A Curious Mind, The Secret to a Bigger Life. It's available now. You can see all of his movies, all 900 of them, of movies and TV shows he was involved with. But it was really a pleasure to talk to him uh so let's uh let's enjoy together my conversation with brian great death is in our air this year's most anticipated series fx's shogun only on disney plus we live

and we die we control nothing beyond that an epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series streaming February 27th exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. Calgary is an opportunity-rich city home to innovators, dreamers, disruptors, and problem solvers. The city's visionaries are turning heads around the globe across all sectors each and every day. They embody Calgary's DNA.

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You want to give me an orientation? No, there's no orientation. An orientation? No, no orientation. I can't. All right. Sure. Is that how your brain works, though?

You're like, all right, what am I getting into? Yeah, yeah. What's going to happen now? Let's frame it up. Yeah. I always need a framing. All right. Well, I'll give you a frame.

You can wear the cans. Okay. And then we go. It was interesting because I'm looking at this book a curious mind the secret to a bigger life and this is your book you wrote it with this guy charles fishman brian grazer where the if i if i can be blunt where the fuck do you have time to just say like you know you're producing everything in hollywood and you're like no i'm gonna take a little time write a book what, write a book. Why are you doing that?

Well, I'm doing it. I originally did it because I thought I've done this for 30 years. Producing movies and television. Yeah, I've been producing movies and television for 30 years. But I've also, in alignment with that, I've met a new person every two weeks for 30 years without fail. And they're people that are not in the entertainment business, so it's science, medicine, politics, religion, all art forms.

But you met them on purpose? You're like, I'm doing a thing? Yeah, on purpose. On purpose, I'd write a letter, I'd call, I'd meet assistants of assistants in parking lots just to meet Jonas Salk. But was the intention to write a book or just because you were a weird fan of things? I was a weird fan of, I grew up in a little tiny neighborhood. Where? Much tinier than this, by the way. Than Highland Park? Yeah. It was in Van Nuys,

but I didn't leave my neighborhood. I never left my neighborhood. In the valley, right here. In the valley, yeah. But it was like the radius of three miles and I didn't go outside that radius. As far as I could ride my bike is where I would go. But for how long? In your 30s? No, until I got out of high school. I went to college like 17 miles from there, which was USC on a grant. I didn't really have the money to do that, but I went there. But basically, I lived a tiny little world. Isn't that weird, though? I mean, you were right here in Los Angeles. But I didn't know about that.

But why? What were your parents doing? My dad was never around, a good guy, but never around. What did he do? He was a criminal attorney. In L.A.? In L.A., so he kind of lived the life of a criminal

while he was defending criminals. Oh, really? Yeah, kind of. Like what? What does that mean? Oh, my God. Well, he'd always, more often got paid, never without, not money. It was like IBM's Selectric Typewriters.

He did a thing for the Apple Pan, got like a thousand sandwiches. He threw them in a freezer. We'd eat these sandwiches. So thanks for getting me off, buddy. Yeah. I'm going to set you up. Yeah, I have no money, but this is what we are getting. I thought I had money, but I don't have money.

But I got these things in the trunk. Fish, albacore, frozen albacore. That's what you remember. Isn't that funny, the things you remember? So you had like a freezer full of frozen albacore. Oh, it was gross. And you're eating tuna for a month? Exactly.

Stuff like that. And the worst thing, of course, was venison. He made me, we'd go, he said, Bri, let's go. This is our way of bonding. Yeah. So I didn't want to go shoot deer. Oh, he was a hunter? He'd shoot deer.

You know, he was in the NRA. He did a few things like that. Not a big right-wing guy, but in the, liked to shoot guns and fish. Was he a Jewish guy? No, no, Catholic guy. All right, so your mom's Jewish. Yeah, my mom is a Jewish mom. My dad was a Catholic. And so we'd say

let's go shoot deer. I didn't want to do that. Then he'd shoot a deer and he'd strap it on the front of the car. Just literally like Minnesota, like Fargo or something. You'd drive up north and do it? Like, what is it? Angus National Park, something like that. That must have been sort of devastating.

It was and then we'd have to eat it. And I remember the first taste of this smoked venison grossed me out, threw up. Really? And I can't even look at venison to this day. How about deers? I can look at a living deer, but as soon as they're dead, I can't look at them. So I did live in this tiny little quirky world and i didn't i never went to beverly hills ever i didn't know westwood really were you afraid were you i mean

i wasn't afraid it's just how we grew up we just grew up in a little in a cul-de-sac and we right i get it yeah but you had a car at some point i I eventually, I had a car, but I broke a few rules with cars. I was a mischievous kid, not afraid of things. No. But just never went to LA. Just never drove over the hill. So if you saw Menace to Society, they didn't leave South Central. I didn't leave Van Nuys.

Is that the situation you're in? Is it a territorial gang situation? But I vowed to myself to enlargen my world. Okay, okay. So that's why I created this discipline of meeting a new person every two weeks. And I would fly. I'd go there. You started this in high school, though?

No, I started it just out of college. Now, let's go through this, because you're really the first major producer. I think probably the first producer i've talked to really and and and to talk to somebody at your level which is a very high level i have no idea i have a vague idea of what what you guys do you know and there is sort of a romantic idea of what the the hollywood producer is i mean you guys are the top of the food chain so i would i'd like to know how you come to show business. What did you set out to do, you know, like in college, when you went to college? I had a generalized goal of just getting out of college, graduating, and be respected.

You just wanted to be respected for something. Yeah, I wanted to be special. My grandmother, Sonia Schwartz, who I dedicate the book to, always used to say to me, you're special. Think big. Be big. Your curiosity is going to take you all the way. Use that. It's a superpower.

She really said that? She really said stuff like that. She was Jewish, a very Jewish little- Yeah, I had one. But while she was telling me literally every week that I'm going to be special, I'm going to be an outstanding human being, she was looking at a straight F report card. So there was literally no empirical evidence that I was going to be special the way she thought I was going to be special. Did they tell you you had motivational problems? No, I had dyslexia, but they didn't classify it as such.

Oh, you did? Really? Yeah. But I struggle with reading, but I can definitely read. And I've improved it. And I was able to get through college with actually good grades. And you wrote a book. And I wrote a book with Charles Fishman, who I love and is your biggest fan, by the way. No kidding.

Yeah. And it took a little longer. Charles and I, he loves you. Oh, he's listening to this. Is he? Yeah. He's not a needy guy at all, honestly. But he said on this particular interview, he didn't even sayy guy at all, honestly.

But he said on this particular interview, he didn't even say, say my name, but I'm doing it. Well, I'm glad I have a fan in Charles Fishman. Now I have to go look at his stuff. Outside of this book he wrote with you. Well, yeah, and I actually picked Charles Fishman because he had no knowledge of this world, this culture at all. Of Hollywood? Of Hollywood, no knowledge and i because i wanted a business i wanted somebody that came into this world um i was able to introduce into this world uh from like a beginner's mind where he was like an like an archaeologist just going

in for a dig not cynical or jaded you can hide this stuff from him brian you can paint a good picture of our business yeah exactly exactly but all right so you you want to be special you want to be relevant you want to be respected but you got no clue what it is you want to do no i don't i have no i think i'm going to go to law school because my father i just thought we all think that you know what i mean i'll be a doctor because my dad's a doctor whatever it is so i went to usc and i got accepted into usc law school um but in that summer the preceded law school i overheard these two guys outside my little apartment complex talk about the easiest cushiest job imaginable and i just closed the drapes and opened the window so I could really listen in. Like I put my head against the screen.

I love doing that. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah, exactly. What's going on? Voyeuristic. Yeah, what's going on? So I overhear this guy saying, it's the easiest job, 40-hour week pay, it's one hour a day

work, you know, you don't have to do anything, you get free corporate cards, Warner Brothers pictures. Yeah. I knew nothing about Warner Brothers, so I just dial information, Warner Brothers. Come on. And the man that was head of the legal department was named Peter Connect. Because then I overheard that. So can I please have legal department Peter Connect?

Got him on the phone. I said, I'm a young guy going to USC. Love to be a law clerk. He says, come in. And that day I got the job. Because the guy just quit the day before. You just lucked out. I just totally lucked out.

And you really did that? I really, oh, I swear to you, yes. And so you go into Warner Brothers, which is probably the biggest studio at the time, I would imagine. That and Universal, yeah. Yeah. The two, yeah. And you have no idea what show business is really. No, no.

Are you a movie fan? Not really. I mean, no. No. I went to a lot of the James Bond movies, but no, I wasn't a movie fan. Because you're too busy not leaving the cul-de-sac. No way to get out to the movies. Yeah, exactly.

It's hard. All right, so you're there. You're doing the legal clerk work. And what is that job, essentially? That job is a tiny little office with no windows, a third of the size of this garage we're in right now. And what do you do in there? Basically, you sit there until somebody says you have to deliver these papers to somebody. So one of the first people I was to deliver Warner Brothers documents to was to Warren Beatty at the Beverly Wilshire Hotel where he lived.

You had to do that? I had to do it. And this guy's never been to LA. Yeah. I've never really been across the hill. So now I'm in this Pontiac. I'm in a Pontiac, a red Pontiac that they gave me. They gave you a car?

They let me use a car. You get a car and mileage and the 40. What year is it? 1972. So it's a big car. It was a big car. It was. It was a big car.

You're in your big red Pontiac driving over to see Warren Beatty. Exactly. And did you see Warren Beatty? So, yes, I did. Where was he? At the hotel? He was living at the hotel. Which one?

Beverly, yeah. Beverly Wilshire. And so what happened is assistant came down, said, I'll take these papers from Mr. Beatty. And I said, I have to hand it. I just had, I have to hand it to him directly. They said, oh no, that's not possible. I said, they're only binding if they're directly handed by me to Mr. Beatty. So somehow I pushed that through and all of a sudden I was in Warren Beatty's hotel suite where he lived.

And I'm having a conversation with Warren Beatty. What'd you talk about? Talk about a lot of things. Well, movies. Because I knew he was one of the biggest movie stars in the world. Sure. I was aware of that.

Oh, good. I mean, just because I didn't... I mean, when you said I was a fan, I wasn't a cinephile like some kids are. But you knew Hollywood culture. Yeah, I knew Hollywood culture. And how did he strike you at that time really nice um he elected to not be into not to be intimidating and rather he was not he does that he's warm and he he and and somehow is able to engage and he

just locks in and he with this tremendous conversation do you remember about what i don't really remember about what i I honestly, I wouldn't. It was probably like, well, what do you do? What do you want to do? He probably asked you that, right? Well, yeah, yeah. He'd ask questions like that. What do you want to do?

What are you doing here? What was it like living in the valley? Are you still going to USC? You know, stuff like that. Yeah. He's a very inquisitive guy, and he's remained a friend of mine. Oh, really? Yes.

And in 1972, he's the biggest he's ever been, right, about then? Yes. He's a huge movie star. He was a huge movie star. So, all right. So here you are. So now I've done that. So now I've had this conversation with Warren Beatty.

And he says, thank you very much. I'll see you later. Yeah. Because he ultimately becomes businesslike. Sure. I mean, they've got to know what they're doing after a certain point. Yeah. He's a smart guy.

So I'm done with that. And then I feel like the next one was William Peter Blatty, who wrote the book, the novel, The Exorcist. Oh, The Exorcist. The Exorcist. And I tried the same thing. But I had to drive out to Malibu. So you're saying this is part of your experiment. This is part of my experiment.

How can I turn a delivery into a full meeting with somebody that is getting something done in hollywood because you wanted to figure out what the hell you wanted to do i was trying to figure i here's what i i knew that i could never get through law school yeah i knew i just felt there's literally no chance i'm going to get through the first year of law school right there's literally no chance if that were to happen by some fluke that i'll ever pass the bar i wasn't a great tester i just thought it's just not gonna be when you were you not interested in the law per se yeah only you were just you didn't know what i watched television i didn't know what you're

trying to placate your dad yeah some version of that right yeah i was yeah and my grandma yeah i really just wanted to make my grandmother proud. So I was driven by wanting this bond that I had with my grandmother and trying to be special. And at that time, that generation respected the idea of a lawyer or a doctor. It meant something. That's right. Well, I was more of a television kid. Yeah. And that's what was on television.

Doctor, lawyers, and cops. Right, right. And if you could be... So those were goals for people. Those were role models for myself as well. Even though I didn't know the complete details of what it would be. Anyway, so I just thought it wasn't possible. So I'm scrambling like crazy to invent something for myself to do in my career. So now you're going out to see William Blatty.

What are you bringing to him? Well, I was bringing him documents because they were the company that also made The Exorcist. This was such a great time in movie making. It was. It was very romantic. It got, you know, look, I did go to people's houses, which I can't, stars, where like very kinky stuff was going on. It was a very. Well, you can't just drop that bomb and not give us some details, can you?

I don't know if I don't think I can. You can't. Well, let's not mention names. What did you walk in on in a situation that you were like i'm a little too young or i may never want to see this i did go to a star's house uh action star where there was a pretty grand level uh orgy going on oh really in the daytime and literally in the daytime out in calabasas i'm getting as much as i can tell you but there's like a hundred people a hundred people and you're like 20 years old it's like 20 there was some legal documents yeah it was pretty weird um i think it was my my boss had a

boss yeah uh that uh asked if i would do this thing because he knew i was like a frisky kid trying to learn a lot. He knew what you were going to walk into? So I was co-opting everybody in Warner Brothers to learn something, and he felt like he could co-opt me some. I'm going to tell you the truth. I've never done this on television, I mean on radio ever.

He did ask if I could stop at the corner of Topanga Boulevard and the 101. I stopped at the corner and picked up a girl. Her name was Kim. And I took her to this place, and I talked to her. She wasn't interested in me. I was just a goofy clerk.

And you were driving her to the place? I'm driving her to this place, which I didn't know what was going on. Papers plus the girl. And I get there. It was a very, you know, like easy rider kind of people stars that kind of and she soon enough was like had her clothes off and having sex with somebody and i just stood up like i was i was in shock i didn't know what was going i mean no one said come on kid put the papers down i did have so yes someone the the girlfriend of one of the stars had come on, kid, put the papers in, but I was like,

I didn't know what to do. I was frozen. I was literally... And when you got back to Warner's, did the guy who sent you go, how you doing? Did he know what you were walking into? I have a feeling that guy later showed up there. I think it was all... I was just an innocent kid.

Welcome to Hollywood, Brian. Yeah. Welcome to Hollywood, Brian. So, okay. So, I don't know how long this show is, but there's a lot to say about all that. I was a very, very naive kid. Right. I mean, I was ambitious and really hoped to make something of myself and accomplish this dream period, I extended my trip. I said to my boss, I think I'm going to push the law school back one year. So I was able to stay doing this job, the Brian Grazer job, for an entire year after that.

Delivering stuff. extra thing of saying hi i'm brian grazer and i would introduce myself to in fact lou wasserman and lou wasserman mca mca he was chairman of mca the biggest movie company in entertainment he was the he was the guy he was the most powerful guy in show business and he basically said kid i love the questions but you have no value to me i don't know what you're trying to do and he said hold he said i got he said, hold this. And he handed me a number two pencil and a legal tablet and said, put the pencil to the paper and it's worth more than it did as separate parts. It has greater value than it did as separate parts. Get out of here.

And it was just the greatest advice. It was a little scary, but it was like start manufacturing ideas. Start writing ideas yeah because you don't have a lot of money you can't buy scripts you can't do things like that it's clear you're not going to finish go to law school he could see right through me right so he made the intimidating very very intimidating but not um he didn't he wasn't trying to hurt me he didn't try to degrade me but he was intimidating in his presence well i think and also that generation i imagine you as well in your your mind is that if someone's

doing even a small job in show business there's an element where it's sort of like well what are you gunning for what do you want to do why are you in this yes exactly and and he saw that and you didn't really know and i didn't really know i. I would say, you know, I would have, he didn't ask. I mean, in other words, I didn't get to say producer. Right. But that's sort of the catch-all job. But did you know that at that time that you were like? I just wanted to be in it because what happened is I got in this year and a half journey of staying there as a law clerk.

Yeah. But at the same time trying to meet all of the great master filmmakers, which everyone said yes. Coppola? Coppola. Everyone said yes. The only one that I couldn't – that said yes but I never met was Robert Evans. But just because I don't think he made it to his office. Do you know him now?

I know him now, yeah. Yeah. I know him now. It's so funny that you know – like now you know all these guys. I know him now. It's so funny that now you know all these guys. But when you say yes or no, were they still business meetings or were you reaching out just to go talk to them? I was just going to talk to them.

But I just said, I'm Brian Grazer. I work at Warner Brothers Pictures in business affairs. This is not associated with studio business. I do not want a job. I just would like, I know, and I would say something I know about them. Can I have five minutes, please? And what'd you get out of these things? Oh, first of all, five minutes always became an hour. Right.

I was able to demystify how this vague operational business worked. Of show business. Of show business. Because literally show business is like flying a Cessna into a storm. Yeah. It's hard to understand it or see it.

Yeah. And mostly what defines or differentiates business is language. Yeah. And so the language in which movies and television are made and those mechanics of those transactions, creative or business, is a language that's different than any other business. And it's very, very hard to learn because you cannot go to business school. There's no school that really teaches it. So what was the first breakthrough you had and with who were you like,

oh, that's how you make a movie? I think it was Lou Wasserman because it forced me to manufacture ideas. And I always had a pretty tremendous- Ideas for movies? Ideas for movies and television shows. Okay. And since I wasn't in the writer's guild, what I would do is I'd write an idea, like a man falling in love with a mermaid, and I would write that as a letter to myself, registered mail letter to myself, and not open it.

That old trick. Right. That old trick. Yeah. So that if someone stole it, I could go to court and say, you know, feel protected. But you could have registered it with the guild. You just didn't know. I just didn't know.

And I don't know if I could have because I wasn't in the guild. I don't think you have to be in the guild to register an idea with the guild. Maybe. I'm counting on you. You're probably more, I'm sure you're more right than me. Ask a writer. You know writers? Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. So I did. I started writing movies for television ideas. Basically what I would do is I'm a title junkie. And so I believe

titles are really important. So I'd come up with a word or I would enjoin one word with another and it would become a title and then I'd build a story underneath the title. Okay.

So I'd retrofit, I'd just do it that way. And then I was able to, I got fired from Warner Brothers, but I had this, like a bin of hundreds of little envelopes and I sold, I would pitch them and I sold two of them as TV pilots

to NBC. Who was the executive? Very good question. Her name was Deanne Barkley. She was head of all West Coast programming and she's awesome. I don't know if she's still alive or not.

She was awesome. Very creative. Very pioneer. Progressive. And these are one pagers? These are one pagers and I pitched her. What happened is

I pitched her these two ideas. I got in there and she was from New Orleans and she had this very new orleans style office with a bird cage with a bird in it as i was pitching we heard a thud the bird died in the room come on and she goes oh my god and she started laughing instead of she made her laugh

for some well first of all she smoked a lot of pot yeah which but she was very effective but she's a lot of pot yeah and it made her was very effective, but she smoked a lot of pot. Yeah. And it made her laugh and she said, we're bonded for life. Yeah. And so- You and her. You and her. She said, you and I are now bonded for life. And she bought the two projects, which enabled me to barter them back, oddly enough, to Warner

Brothers. Warner Brothers Television. It just happened to be Warner Brothers. So they own the idea, but they didn't have a studio. So you could- Yeah, right. Very good, yes. Okay.

NBC bought the idea, but of course, that would be very valuable to a studio. One of her close friends was chairman of Warner Brothers Television, who I'd never met, named Alan Shane. And all of a sudden, I was able to turn my little $5,000 commitment into something much more. And so at 23, four years old, I was then- You were making- I was making deals.

And at 25, I produced my first movie for television. Which was? It was called Zuma Beach with Suzanne Somers, Rosanna Arquette, Michael Biehn- Rosanna Arquette must have been 10. Timothy Hutton. Rosanna Arquette was just turning 18. Okay.

And Timothy Hutton was like- And Rosanna rosanna arquette still and i know each other and we tease each other because i made out with her all the time oh yeah good for you i had a trailer yeah i had every i was a producer i had a lot of inside three years you're already a pro you're in trouble you're going back to the house in calabasas because that orgy was probably still going three years later well it certainly was in my mind i don't know you're probably you're very that's very funny that's very funny i'm in i'm a made guy that's very good but let me ask you quickly yes go so so this is your first sort of experience of making a deal so you sell the ideas to nbc you go to warner brothers and you you you you you you get them involved as a studio. So now you're sort of seeing how the nuts and bolts of those two things work. So then you get this movie.

You're producing a movie of the week for TV. Was this your idea also, Zuma Beach? Yeah, Zuma Beach. It was for NBC. So now you're at the helm of a producer this first time. What do you know your responsibilities are? I mean, what are your responsibilities? Well, ultimately what you learn is i can synthesize it what you learn is um the best way to be a producer is to either have

the idea or incubate or the idea which means align yourself with the writer whoever yes so build it into a script whether you write it or you help do it with somebody else and then that therefore which you are is the umbrella of all the idea is the umbrella of all uh employment so there's paperwork involved in all of this yes okay and you have to be the one that's fiscally and creatively responsible right like yeah i'm going to give you this amount of money you and i are going to develop this idea this script you'll get uh guild minimum or whatever and then uh you know we'll see how that goes we can see if we get an actor attached or a director attached or a studio attached yes so that and that's how it plays out certainly you're the ring master in a way yeah

you're the ring exactly you're the ring master the contractor the but you know you're the one that you're the architect and the contractor so you're the guy if the money falls out you're like i know another guy we can get money maybe this studio wants to you know kick in a little bit we can we can produce it with these two people yes exactly uh-huh we'll weld together some financing but right and ultimately what you're doing when you're approaching i mean writers are writers actors are actors directors or directors these are guys that want a gig and depending on their reputation they'll get paid appropriately or ask for more money you say no but really the way to get the money is you got to go to guys saying that i'm going to make you money on your

money yeah that's the way shit gets done yeah yeah you have to say yeah i mean look basically always having a sexy hook is a good starting point and a sexy hook is begins with a good title um and then a singular sentence that defines what you're trying to achieve and then an emotional destination. So this is the sales pitch. Well, no, that's really what you want to do. Right. But I mean, that's how you get a dummy with money.

Yeah. So you basically, you have to tell a story. And like I had a story for Splash. It was basically a guy. It was basically, I was in Los Angeles just after I produced my first movie for television. Zuma Beach. Zuma Beach. And then I produced the 20 hour miniseries on the Ten Commandments. I became a 25 year old like superstar. You're a whiz kid.

Every girl that would never talk to me in college was wanting to have sex with me. That was a busy year. That was a busy year. Well, it happened on Zuma Beach because what happened, the most sought after girl at USC by crazy coincidence was sitting at this campfire scene that was where we were shooting Zuma Beach. And she wasn't hired. She was just talking to- You knew her from school. I knew her from school, but I didn't invite her there.

She was just there. Coincidence. to you knew her from school i knew her from school but i didn't invite her there right she was just there coincidence and i was sitting in my little director's chair with like my short t-shirt on looking thinking i'm really a tough cool guy yeah but i didn't know how to even use power i had a lot of power but i didn't know how to use it but literally the two girls that were stars of the movie like suzanne summers and rosanna cat waved to me I waved I see her name was Margie this ten five foot ten shiksa goddess yeah I mean she I waved to Margie I like very excited and she shushes me like puts her finger over her mouth like quiet down yeah and then they whisper to her clearly that guy is the producer she gets up and she comes over to me she she goes, Brian, I didn't know you're the producer.

She becomes more enthusiastic than I've ever seen Margie in her life. And she says, want to go out tonight? And I think, should I have some integrity because she shushed me or should I go out and really have a good time? Of course, I took the latter. Sure. I went in and had a good time. Yeah. And so did Margie, I hope.

Yeah. So, but I did kind of learn quickly that that is a type of girl in Los Angeles and I don't really want, that's not a future for me. So I thought, what is my perfect girl? It's not Margie. But you knew that at that moment

and it took a couple of years. Oh, it took a couple of years. So Margie's a metaphor. That's why you have the number one podcast. So two years, a few years of Margie's, you're like, I'm ready to get married to a woman that has integrity. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. A hundred Margie's later.

Yeah. A hundred Margie's later. This is like forensic file here. I'm curious. I'm just using your system, Brian. Yeah, you're doing it well. So, yeah, a few years of Margie's, and I thought, this is tiring. It's repetitive.

How do I find the perfect girl? What is the perfect girl? I start defining the perfect girl. And what was that definition? Please help me. Beautiful, simple, honest, not calculated. You ask a question, you get a real answer. Authentic.

Not using you necessarily. Yeah, certainly. At least initially. Yeah. So anyway, I wrote all that down and it became Splash. But I superimposed. I wanted to heighten it. So I superimposed this mythological symbol.

So that was what it was about. I get what you're getting at. So it was about meeting the perfect woman. Yeah, it was about meeting the perfect woman. And it's a mermaid get what you're getting that's always about meeting the perfect woman yeah it was about meeting the perfect woman and it's a mermaid and it was so you're saying it's impossible well i wanted to make it somewhat unattainable because that gave it more conflict the more conflict a movie has the better it usually is and but you had done night shift but splash was your idea uh well yeah yeah yeah i had written splash before night shift okay so i started splash not long after Margie, quite honestly.

And what was your relationship with Bruce J. Friedman? He wrote the script? He wrote the script. I wrote two drafts of the script that were terrible. But Lou Wasserman says it doesn't have to be good. It just has to exist. So, I mean, I'm telling you. How much time did you spend with Lou Wasserman?

More than one meeting, I'm guessing. No, no, no. One minute. Like a minute. It doesn't have to be guessing. No, no, no. One minute. Like a minute. It doesn't have to be good. It just has to exist. Just write. He just says, like, write it, kid.

That was... That's what you extrapolated from him. Very good. It just has to exist. I have to be able to say it. I have to bring... I have to be able to say it so that it has a currency. And then if it can exist in the form of a script,

then that's going to be more valuable to me because it will exist. So the fact that it exists, I can say, okay, you love this. This is what I did with this. You love this, the idea, the script exists. You don't have to read it, but I want to charge you $100,000, not 5 Not $5,000. Right. Because I did write a script. Right. So that's what happened. Then I got Bruce J. Friedman. He turned it into a much better script. It's sort of lighthearted for him.

I mean, he's a pretty dark dude. Yeah. But didn't he write, I thought he wrote the story of the Heartbreak Kid. Or am I wrong? No, that's probably right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, he had it in him.

So he did a draft. And then it was still not a very good script, and nobody wanted to do a Mermaid movie. Yeah. So I was able to... So I got the movie Night Shift made before Splash, even though Splash existed before Night Shift. And now, when you...

Okay, so you did Night Shift, and that was your first movie with Ron Howard? That was my first movie with Ron Howard that was my first movie with Ron Howard who becomes your partner in production company yes and by the way I saw Michael Keaton last night

who I still love and love hanging out with I saw him at Toscana Bar he was in here one of the greatest interviews I ever did I bet

with Michael because it was so spontaneous and bizarre dude's the funniest guy he's great and at that time you probably did you see him

cast him when he was doing stand-up? Yes. Right? Yeah. He just came in and did, look, we tried to get a lot of stars in Night Shift prior to that. In fact, we had John Belushi, but then we got cock-blocked by an agent. Oh, really?

Yeah. So, because we were too little. We were just little punks. Ron was just an actor on Happy Days. And I was just a guy, like, sort of, I did these movies for television, but now I'm trying to enter the feature world. So in any event, Michael Keaton just came in and he did exactly that scene of shooting the

basket scene, three points. It's in the crowd goes wild. He did it exactly that way. We go, this is, this guy's amazing. We have to hire him.

He's got a truly unique energy he does and and he's just on fire that guy yeah he's just on fire and because we hired henry winkler we had the luxury of hiring here too by the way wow he's great great sweetheart sweetheart but we had him and that would enable the fact that we had henry was enough leverage to hire an unknown because with henry they could they could already get their money back right exactly and that's a real thing that that thing that's the the big difference in in getting a movie made not getting a movie made is the profile of your talent yeah you have to have enough elements either a star director star actors you have to have star elements now like you you seem like a very energetic, almost excitable.

You seem very open. But in order to be in the business as long as you have and to have the types of hits that you've had, Night Shift, Splashed, Parenthood. I mean, you've done a lot of movies that were a little off the beaten track. Cry Baby you produced as well for John Waters. The Doors you did, backdraft i mean it keeps going you know a beautiful mind i mean you know apollo 13 which i love that movie thank you

thank you yeah and did you do uh what was the one with the old people and the eggs in the pool was that oh i didn't do that yeah that was ron he did cocoon oh you didn't do cocoon well what happened is ron and i did two movies with ron night shift and Splash. He said, let's be partners. I felt he was too famous for me. I mean, because as kind as he was, say, Brian, blah, blah, blah, you get credit. It was all the credit went to Ron Howard because he was one of the most famous American icons. So I just thought, I'm going to work my ass off and be an unknown forever. And that wasn't what grandma sonia said to be

you need to be special i gotta be respected gotta be special so i said ron i love you i can't do so he did cocoon yeah and i produced a hip comedy called uh spies like us yeah yeah yeah um oh who is in that movie and i did real genius at the same time which is about genius kids that go to caltech yeah yeah wow that's right with Chevy Chase and Dan Aykroyd oh my gosh that's right

and John Landis directed so I did those two movies Ron did that one I felt like I'm now a guy that feels has enough confidence to partner with Ron and not feel

like I'm going to be overshadowed so we then partnered I just can't believe the number of fucking movies you did Brian I mean like

like the nutty professor ransom was that the mel gibson yeah yeah yeah and liar liar that was uh jim carrey yes and uh grinch you did the remake of psycho the van zant remake yeah i did really yes oh my god i just believed in him and i wanted to try it and john waters you take chances i definitely do yes and uh you did did CB4 with young Chris Rock. His first movie, I paid for it, in fact. But like, it just, like, I don't, okay, because here's me, me compared to you, and even in relation to this book. I may have a curious mind. I mean, you know that.

By the way, I'm talking to you. I like learning about this stuff. But I'm an extremely anxiety-ridden type. I get overwhelmed very easily. I don't really know how to deliberate power. You know, when I do collaborate, it's not necessarily necessarily reluctantly i'm happy to do it once a minute but i don't know how to unify things in other words like i have to be me in every situation uh in order to like i i actively have to be present to make money yes i understand yes but you are able and people

like a another friend of mine you, like Judd Apatow. I love him. Yeah, who have this sensibility and this comfort and this ease around deliberating power and not losing your mind when things aren't going your way, but have a way to keep cutting through to get what you want or to at least negotiate something that you can accept. Correct, yes.

And that's sort of a weird gift. It's not a businessman thing accept. Correct, yes. And that's sort of a weird gift. It's not a businessman thing necessarily, right? Yeah. Because you're a very creative guy, obviously. Well, yeah, I mean, a lot of, thank you. I mean, it kind of goes like this. The heartbeat of what I think, I think I have a sense of what the heartbeat of what I do.

First of all, I would characterize that I'm in the feelings business. That movies and television, anything that's cinematic, it's cinematic. The destination of that is to ignite emotion. When it fails to ignite emotion, then it's failing to communicate in that particular art form. And I feel like I'm a very empathetic and sensitive person, and I'm constantly importing new people, new experts, new ideas into my brain. And so as a consequence, I'm learning a lot so that I can be disruptive. I'm learning a lot by meeting people in this curiosity journey so that I don't replicate what other people are doing, so I have a chance of having an original idea.

I'm learning a lot so that it creates a curation system that might be better than other people. Really just simply informed instinct. I'm meeting Edward Teller. I'm meeting Carl Sagan. I'm meeting all those people and I'm learning about their subject. I'm learning about them

and I'm able to marry that with my own curiosity. And then I get a spark. So that curiosity gives life to an inspiration. And then I can hire people and I just build it like a house. I build all these movies, Empire, whatever the thing is. I build these houses and I don't do them alone. And I'm very good at working with other people and remembering what we were what the outcome we were trying to have and also maintaining

relationships yeah yes yeah i can't like you well you're very good yeah well the variety of the types of movies and television shows you do implies to me that you know generally speaking maybe there's maybe one person out there in the world, one, if I mention your name, who would go like, oh, fuck that guy. But I would imagine most people are like, I love that guy. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What?

You think there's more than one? No, I think there's more than one. Well, I try to, you know, I make a point. I don't think there's, I've never heard of anyone saying that Brian Grazer screwed me. Right. I think I have strong character. And a lot of that character has been influenced by my partnership with Ron Howard. Because he is extraordinary character.

Yeah, yeah. Well, you picked the right guy. I picked the right guy. No one's going to impugn Ron Howard's character. No. No one's going to shit talk Opie. Exactly. No, they're not. to shit talk Opie. Exactly. No, they're not.

I mean, we're very, very different guys. We have similar taste. We have a similar work ethic. So, like, he doesn't think eight-hour day is like a long, hard, grueling day. And I don't think six hours is. In other words, we both think we both have the same work ethic. And we have similar taste, qualitative taste what what what what are the emotional dynamics like you know what is a common like if you're discussing a property a script where you know you and ron are trying to

decide whether you're going to make the movie and who's going to be in it or who's going to direct it you know what what are the some of the things that you bring to an idea that are different from each other? How does a symbiotic relationship work? Ron is more of a cinephile. And was and is. And I'm not. I understand the emotionality of movies or television or literature. So sometimes he has to sell you on something.

So he does have to sell me on something. But I have to sell him too. So basically, to simplify it, is that he has really good film wisdom. And I have an incredible amount of curiosity. So I'm off the blocks very fast. But then I need to hand the baton to somebody that has more stamina and also more

kind of cinema has more of the classic understanding of cinematic roots so so you've got to find the director or the so basically simply like i might say to ron hey um i'll have an idea that is definitely that could that is very likely to be an original pop culture idea that is he'll go really is that what's going on in pop culture today

or like with you I said I gotta get these Yeezys and you said what are Yeezys well I know what all that shit is you know like wait why you're a little older than me

because I have kids and I like to also in these curiosity conversations I'm with young kids all the time I'm with young people other than my own kids because i have kids and i like to also in these curiosity conversations i'm with young kids all the time with young people other than my own kids because i'm going to young young demographics i'm going to skateboard shops sure i'm standing in line for a drop at uh supreme even though i know the owner so i like to bombard myself with pop culture things right or just or subculture things he doesn't Ron Howard doesn't do that it's interesting though so he might go Brian is this corny and I'll go yeah that's corny

right but then I'll say to Ron do you think this holds up and he'll go no I don't think it does as a movie as a movie well but it's interesting because you make a lot of grown-up movies and not a lot of people make grown-up movies I mean you know frost and nixon is not a kid's movie american gangster not really a kid's movie uh the da vinci code that was a huge movie everyone seemed to like that but it's still not kids i mean you're one of the the rare guys cinderella man uh you know uh well eight mile that was a crossover a beautiful mind not a kid's movie but a beautiful movie that in an in an era where people are afraid to make adult movies you seem to do it yeah i do do it and but you know you make a few kids movies here and there and i

imagine you take some shots that don't really go over that well i mean i can see the the like like with the nutty professor that was huge across the board that was huge across the board and liar liar all my comedies i'm not i don't say my all the you're supposed to say my sure yeah all the comedies that i did for 15 years they connected to kids yeah so i did six movies with eddie murphy they did the nutty professors as you said liar liar um with jim a grinch with jim so i miss i miss though for sure but um house sitter work parenthood worked what are your biggest misses i talked i talked to favreau i get in trouble about oh my god well i just my cowboys and, I just wasn't the right person to be involved in anyway, because I don't like Cowboys or Aliens.

And I even said that to everybody. I go, you guys got to be kidding. We can't call this Cowboys and Aliens. They go, yeah, we love it. And when the we, I'm talking about, those are very powerful people. There's Favreau. There's a lot of people there. But I, you know.

So they came to you with that? No, it was Ron's thing that I participated, you know, Ron and. The weird thing is, it's not a bad movie. It's an interesting movie. Yeah, it is.

It just didn't find its place. Yeah. And I'm just like, not the right guy. I mean, look, but I don't see a lot of the Marvel movies, although then they're giant.

Yeah, but it's beautiful that you make, like, you know, Frost Nixon's an amazing movie. So how does something like that happen? I like to do, if I can do it, I like to try to do something

that is different than other people. So it has a disruptive quality or in the case of television, like Empire 24. Empire, you did the first couple? Is that, you know? Well, I did the whole show. Lee Daniels, Danny Strong,

and I are executive producers. Uh-huh. And Eileen Chaykin. She's like the showrunner. Uh-huh. So I'm still involved, of course. We're all still involved. And there's no tension?

Well, anyway, so I try to do things. I try to do things that have a chance of trend creation. Yeah. So I like taking the big swing. Yeah, when i did cry baby i thought this is going to be grease or it's going to be a flop it was a flop but it's a it's you know it was a it was interesting you know those john waters movies where he's got some money are very interesting to watch yeah and i like the movie and i think it's probably has an audience

maybe it didn't make the bread you might have thought but you know i think it's kind of interesting that you know you're you're slightly perverse enough to think that might take off like grease but good for you i thought i just we had johnny depp sexy guy yeah i don't know i talked myself into it yeah but but anyway i do like to make um adult movies as you said and uh that you know there's sometimes there's little subculture movies like Eight Mile was a subculture movie that crossed over. Blue Crush was a girl empowerment movie

that crossed over about surf girls and stuff like that. I just did one called Low Riders that for Universal. About the culture of Low Riders?

About the culture of Low Riders. Going back how far or new? It's brand new. But I mean like the current Low Riders culture? Yeah,

because when I was in high school, I went to Chatsworth High School and there were a bunch of Low Riders and it's a world. But I mean like the current lowrider culture. Yeah, because when I was in high school, I went to Chatsworth High School. Sure. And there were a bunch of lowriders. And it's a world. So the lowrider Hispanic culture exists throughout all of America. I grew up in New Mexico. Española is like the capital.

There's hundreds of these cultures. Yeah, it's amazing. And they're kind of like, if you think of Saturday Night Fever, where he's in that little Italian house and all that. of like if you think of saturday night fever when he's in that little italian house and all that so it's like using a closed world like travolta and saturday night to do romeo and julia a version of that yeah yeah it celebrates it actually celebrates the hispanic culture yeah what because i've kind of pledged to myself after doing eight mile that that the hispanic culture is a culture that is kind of denied,

and I want to try to do something about it. So let's go through some things. Okay, yes. I don't know why I'm hung up on Apollo 13, but I watch that movie every time it's on. Now, something like that, how does that, because Tom Hanks was heavily involved in that, right? Yes. And who wrote that script? Bill Broyles.

Mm-hmm. And how does it, like, let's just walk. How did that come about? How does a project like that come about? It comes about like this. I'll tell you, it was the intersection of Hollywood and a 12-page treatment and me and my curiosity conversations. So what happened is I met a woman 15 years before

Apollo 13 named Veronica de Negre that was tortured in Chile but survived under the Pinochet regime. And she survived very, you know, with so much hope and power

and still lives in Washington, D.C. now. So I became obsessed with her. I became obsessed with how torture works as an operational thing. And more importantly, I became obsessed with her i became obsessed with how torture works as an operational thing and more importantly i became obsessed with how people survive situations like that and just human the human resources that we can rally to survive things that we could that are unimaginable so now it's 15 17 years later there's a 12 page treatment written by Jim Lovell on Apollo 13. And I know nothing about-

The guy who was on the- That's Tom Hanks. Right. So he writes a 12 page, the astronaut Jim Lovell writes a 12 page treatment on Apollo 13. And that involves like aviation and aerodynamics and all that, which I know nothing about. But the one thing I knew a lot about because of my earlier conversations about survival, I knew a lot about survival and what people can do far beyond what they could imagine. And I thought, this is what this is about to me. So I chased after it.

And I got Ron excited. and we bid against other studios and like literally my only bridge or access point was the survival dimension which i thought was so humanistic and important putting a square peg in a round hole and so that's what got literally in the process of trying to save the ship, the two amazing scenes were the engineers, right? Mission control. Mission control trying to figure out how to keep them alive. Tell these guys how to keep them alive. To reconfigure things. Yes, how they can have oxygen, how they can have electricity, all those things.

And that they were all these sort of like, they had the determination and the focus of test pilots. Yes. Or at least pilots, you know, of a craft. Yes. So that's how it came about. That's what it's about. That's what it's about.

And then I was able to champion this little 12 pages into something that we could own and then partner with Tom Hanks. And the three of us, and look, Tom is a superstar in every way. He knew a lot about aerodynamics. And Ron learned it. And we created an astronaut training school on the lot, which real astronauts came so we could learn it all. And then, of course, we co-opted NASA so that we could shoot real zero gravity. Because no movie had ever shot zero gravity.

It's always been wires and then digitally removing them. So we thought this was the perfect blend of science and cinema so you you reached out to nasa and said look you know we're going to tell this story we're going to tell it real we need you we need you and they said no originally and the only ones that said yes was the russians who said you can use our rock our jet yeah but that's it seemed like that had gone down so did you. So did you have to go back to NASA and go- We had to go back, yes. You know, Russians are in.

Yeah. That's hilarious. I don't know if we used that as a negotiating tool, but we probably did. Probably did. But we ended up sort of softening them, and then they became great allies of ours. Yeah. Yeah. Russians, you don't want that

to happen you guys again it's still a space race yeah exactly oh that's hilarious so that's how that so that's how that happened but again it was the human component it was the human component for me ron howard was did a quite extraordinary job because we everybody in the world knew these guys survived so how is he going to create tension in a story where the entire planet knew those three astronauts went into space and they didn't die. They're alive. But he found a way to create tension by creating the architecture of the movie was these three worlds.

One was the world of being in outer space in that capsule. The other world was mission control, which you just referenced. And the other world was the personal world of the family the kids cutting back and forth cutting back and forth to those three worlds in an integrated fashion plus all the launch stuff that was really beautiful and cinematic became what the movie was and created all the tension that any movie ever needed and they acted the hell out of that movie those guys did those guys were great and then by the way can you imagine how boring it was to do that? They're sitting in a little capsule and they're...

For hours. By the way, in order to... Hours. And in order to shoot that stuff floating around zero gravity, there was a jet called the KC-135 jet, would only do like 100 parabolas. So if you got sick on the second one, you got 97 more to go. So that was it.

So basically each parabolas would be 27 seconds of weightlessness, which, and you have to lose the beginning and the end. So you could only capture about 16 seconds, the meat of it. So it's kind of like shooting underwater like Ron and I did in Splash. You know, when people are swimming from tank to tank, because you have to get away from the tank the meat of it. So it's kind of like shooting underwater like Ron and I did in Splash. You know, when people are swimming from tank to tank.

Right. Because you have to get away from the tank to really feel like you see Daryl Hannah just in the ocean. Yeah. In the case of Tom Hanks floating around, you can't, you have to snip the first five, six, seven seconds. Of him going up.

Yeah. And then you capture the middle. And so it's a very time-consuming, arduous task. They worked hard, those guys. They worked hard. They then you capture the middle. And so it's a very time-consuming, arduous task. They work hard, those guys. They worked hard. They worked hard for that money. And that was a great success.

Was that one of your biggest? Yeah, it was. I mean, we all thought, Tom, Hank, Ron, and I thought, well, God, we think we're doing something good. Maybe it'll make $40 million worldwide so we're not embarrassed. And it made like $400 million worldwide. Oh, my God. And then it got nine Oscar nominations. How many Oscars have you won? worldwide so we're not embarrassed and it made like 400 million dollars worldwide so and then it got nine oscar nominations how many oscars have you won i've won one personal one for uh for a beautiful mind but i've been personally nominated i think i've been well i've been

nominated personally five times once as a writer for other movies and then 43 times and emmys i think 160 times i love the gangster movie, American Gangster. Oh, me too. That was one of my favorite movies ever. It's a great movie. And that got turned down so many times. And actually it was shut down. They fired the studio, fired the director two months before, six weeks before we start shooting.

Yeah. And they said, don't ever say either American or gangster because there was a big loss. But then I couldn't live with that because I love this movie so much. Because it's about respect. It's a gangster movie, which I love, but it's about respect. And movie, all of my most successful movies

or television or all access around self-worth and of course, respect. And survival. And survival, yeah. Right? Emotional survival. Yeah. Well, that's, I mean, I see like- around self-worth and of course respect and survival and survival yeah right emotional survival yeah well that's i mean i see like yeah i make things yeah yeah it's emotional or real survival yeah i mean i see the key to it like when you describe because i imagine with the beautiful mind you did the same thing as you apply a certain sensitivity a hundred percent yes a gifted guy but also a flawed guy i think think history showed in some ways.

But that wasn't the story you were telling. But it was the emotional perseverance of a very awkward, brilliant person. Exactly. And was stricken with schizophrenia. So he's trying to survive schizophrenia at the same time he's winning a Nobel Prize. That's pretty profound. But literally, you know, he was ready to stab people. I mean, he was, you know, when you go off your meds for a second, yeah, it's a problem.

How do you deal with someone, like when you work with directors, notoriously producers and directors, that can get dicey. Yes, definitely. With budgets. Yes. And tell me a story of an almost irreconcilable situation where you were like, this guy's killing me.

Oh, wow. Well, the way I deal with people, I mean, I have what looks to be like ADD or I'm very... I don't know why I said that. The point is, is you have to be like ADD or I'm very, I don't know why I said that. The point is, is you have to be extremely patient and words have meaning. So you try not to say,

you try not to ever lose control. You try not to ever be impetuous. So you have to work a lot. You have to be vigilant around your personality. So the negotiation is all in the conversation and it's about depriving, it's giving love and depriving love and doing it gently. And that's how you work with actors, stars. And that's how you work with star directors.

What do you mean depriving? Well, for example, if there's a director that says, I can, you know, we're now in it and I'm doing it, but it's now 125 million. And I said, but our deal was 100 million. And we told them 100 and they go crazy and they're screaming. You have to just, I would just basically, I would not talk to them for a day. I wouldn't yell. I would just.

You just described like a child. Yeah, that's how you do it. You can't, well, you, exactly. It's true. You know, you just, you don't you well you exactly it's true you know you just you don't ever want to throw the final card or yeah you know if you're gonna do it you're gonna fire someone which i've done i've fired somebody once but that costs a lot of money yeah that was a it would have cost more money had i not fired who was that i don't want to say okay okay um i did

one movie i was thinking about this other. There was a movie that I produced. I co-wrote it. Harold Ramis and I wrote it. It was a flop. It was with John Candy and Meg Ryan. And the director, who was the wrong director, I said, you know, you can't have the actor, you can't have the protagonist say to the girl, you're a bitch. We're going to hate him for that.

He says, what are you saying to me? I said, I think we shouldn't say that. I think they should say different things. And John Candy's shaking his head. Yes, Brian, you're right. The guy goes, you know what? You direct it. And I had to direct the day.

He left. So it wasn't. You directed the day? I had to do the day and hope that he would come back because I thought, I don't want to direct this movie. I don't want to direct it and go to the editing room now for 20 weeks or something. That's not my personality.

It's not your job. It's not my skill set. But he did get- Could you have? But he did. I would have. I finished it. You would have?

Yeah, I would have. I would have. He said, I'm not coming back. Because when you have smart actors, they help you a lot. Yeah. And Meg Ryan and John Candy were very, very smart actors.

And have you directed movies? No. No desire. I don't want actors. And have you directed movies? No. No desire. I don't want to. No desire. Because you can kind of... I can get as much... I can do as much creatively as I'd like to do

by exerting my creative vision early on. Because I do get respected by filmmakers that I'm working with, or in this case, a television. In television, the executive producer is kind of like the director in movies of course it's not but like in stuff like you've done

like the television you've done some of it's been pretty astounding Felicity was huge Sports Night should have been more

right I remember that was Aaron Sorkin and the first one of course was J.J. Abrams his first show yeah

and you know 24 obviously but friday night lights um the the vision of that it was that pete berg yes like i you know i knew pete berg i briefly lived with pete berg years ago in culver city he's a great guy wild guy he's a wild guy yeah and i haven't seen him in years and i've tried to get him on but i think he's nervous because i knew him when we were sharing an apartment with steve brill in culver city and he was trying to make a prince movie yeah you should do with him he's he's nervous because I knew him when we were sharing an apartment with Steve Brill in Culver City and he was trying to make a Prince movie. Yeah, you should do with him.

He's a first class, very first class guy. But he's also like, it's interesting for me to, I haven't talked to him in decades. But he has a vision, doesn't he, as a director? He has a vision.

He's very creative and he can act out things because he was an actor first. I mean, I think he's a person that does well with collaboration. But that's a,

Hal Ashby did really well with collaboration. He did his worst movies without collaboration, without a strong producer. And he did his best movies with, you know, a strong producer

or a visionary like Warren Beatty. So Pete, I think, is one of those guys. I think he's got an abundance of ideas and an immeasurable amount of energy and creative energy. But I think he's always good

where he's got someone that's sort of partnering with him on structure. Reeling him in. Reeling him in a little bit. Yeah. And you did Arrested Development, which people love. My world of comedy people.

Oh, yes, yes. Highly respected. Now, did you get that out of the gate, or was that something Ron had to sell you on? I didn't get it out of the gate. I figured. I didn't. You figured, yeah. It was a little too complex for me.

It was a little subtle and complex. Not enough heart. It didn't. It was antithetical in a way. It's ironic. You're very intuitive. It's right. It didn't have heart. It was really funny, in a way. It's ironic. You're very intuitive. It's right. It didn't have heart.

It was really funny and kids love it. It's one of the reasons I don't like it. It's not that I don't like it. I respect it, but I can't lock in. Yeah, exactly. I respect it too, but I can't lock in either. Yeah. We're sensitive guys.

We're sensitive guys. Our grandmothers wanted the best for us. Yeah, exactly. They were touchy-feely grandmothers, right? Yeah, we meant the world to them. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Exactly. So I respected it, but I didn't get it really. Yeah, yeah. exactly they were touchy-feely grandmothers right yeah we meant the world to them yeah exactly exactly exactly so i respected it but i didn't get it really yeah yeah and i root for it now we're going to do another round of it i mean kids people love the show but you're right yeah it's

definitely got a less heart than more of my yeah i love it you know dave cross is another friend of mine he was just in here yeah he's a cool guy for sure he's a very funny guy i mean it's very funny he actually has heart no he does yeah yeah yeah it's a cranky heart but he's exactly he definitely he definitely has it well bateman too is a very heartful guy yes yeah so you know out of like in this amazing career where you know you you are the the guy at the top of everything i mean you know in i know the book a Mind, is about you having conversations with people. But in terms of all these guys you got to work with, what was for you, you know, like an honor where you were like, oh, my God. I mean, because like, you know, as a producer, you know, they're all coming to you.

But there's got to be some party. Like you say, you liked Gus Van Zandt because you respect his vision. And that was a ballsy thing to do, to do psycho shot for didn't do that well right no it didn't it did because it was a weird experiment it was a weird experiment but I just thought wow he just I thought he was such a brilliant artist I thought and he's sort of Andy Warhol like and by the way I knew Andy Warhol and and I just thought I I just felt like it's not gonna be too too expensive. I, we should try it. Like, did no one has ever done it.

Let's just try doing this. And I convinced the studio to do it and they did it. And it exists. And it exists. Yeah. But like, but it wasn't in the book, you know,

you have these weird moments where, you know, you'll condoleezza rice talks you out of shooting in Mexico. Cause you didn't want you to die. Yes. And then, uh, well,

the Jonas Salk thing, I mean, that must've been some sort of weird childhood fantasy. That was for you to meet the guy. Cause he got so much press for curing polio. He's a big guy. Jonas Salk thing, I mean, that must have been some sort of weird childhood fantasy. That was. For you to meet the guy, because he got so much press for curing polio. He's a big guy, Jonas Salk. Definitely. So he was probably, you know, because I didn't know where, so with people I've met versus movie people, I would say Jonas Salk was top of the list.

Because, you know, I had this unique, it took about two and a half, two years to meet with him. I did. He was old at that time? mean how old were you you were he was uh i was uh it was right after splat so i was probably like 38 or something so he must have been pretty old already right yeah but he was really vital yeah and basically we had one meeting just the two of us and then he said let's have a meeting where you bring three people and i bring three people and we'll do it at your house with no agenda. And it was fantastic. I brought Sidney Pollack, George Lucas, who brought Linda Ronstadt. And he brought a woman that figured out the left and the right brain hemispheres and how they work operationally. And someone that was expert on robotics, a Nobel Prize winner.

And I would have these meetings like that with him. Like a salon. Yeah, salon. But I mean, so I say Jonas Salk. I met some, just the greatest people. Princess Di. I mean, that was a tear jerking. First, it was really fun and funny.

I talked her into sharing a bowl of ice cream with me at an event. If you weren't in the position you were in, you'd be this annoying guy. I would, exactly. So I sort of seduced her into helping me get a bowl of ice cream at this dinner because it didn't provide it. And when I got it, I said, I took a scoop. I said, you try a scoop. And I handed her a spoon. And we went back and forth.

And I thought, I'm like having a date right now. I'm going to be having sex with Princess Di any moment. It was a big day for you. It was a big day. So I had a lot of things. So I've met a lot of very interesting. Michael Jackson was amazing. I mean, he was like Mozart.

He was brilliant. And that's all in the book. And then there's also, it was interesting because meeting with Condoleezza Rice, negotiating with NASA, and there's sort of this suggestion or the reality that you met with several CIA directors that you can't divulge what was talked about. But is there a relationship with the high level of motion pictures and the U.S. government in terms of anything? No, I don't know about that. I look i've met with william casey and william colby also and those were cia directors and i also it informed a point of view that enabled me to champion 24 into life because it's just like there's so much red tape basically why i wanted to meet with cia directors is they have access to all the information in the world and all the secrets.

And I just wanted to understand because I'm so fascinated with human capacity. Like if you have access to all of that, are you able to assimilate that information? Are you able to? How do you really use it? Do you use it singularly or do you have many lieutenants under you that are using that information, how do you really use it? Do you use it singularly or do you have many lieutenants under you that are using that information? How much are you able to really, how much is one man or one woman able to comprehend just data itself?

Less than we think. And probably, but using it in all the time in world-challenging life-or-death situations. And that's what heightened my interest in that. And I said that sort of bled over into what 24 was. So getting back to the other question, because what I'm sensing and what I appreciate about you is that you know exactly your place. And you obviously have had tremendous success with it, so there's a confidence to it and you know you can get things done. But you also know your limitations, which is important as a person. Yes.

So that means you know that you can't do what a director does. You can't do what an actor does, but you know what they do and who the best is and what's right for a particular project. And I imagine you know that on the money end too. So, you know, in all this work you've done, I imagine it's easy to take people for granted on some level that like well of course he's going to do that that's what he does that director or that actor or whatever now where have there been moments where you were like holy shit this guy is a genius beyond what I even imagined? Wow, great question. Mostly no. A lifetime of curiosity. Well, as far as, no, you're saying-

They meet your expectations. Yeah, they meet expectations. I can rely upon my analysis of them. Right, right. And there's some consistency. Right. I mean, I have really fun times and profound experiences

with some master directors. I was surprised with Ridley Scott. Yeah. He was, he's so brilliant. On American Gangster? On American Gangster because he's a world creator. Yeah.

He creates worlds. Yeah. And I wanted to go there every day on this movie so I could see how he does that. And while he's, by the way, when he does second unit, all that action stuff, he's actually writing that action stuff. And he, like an architect, draws upside down. And it's just a profound, I was very, I mean, he's to this day, like, I love him.

I have him at my house making martinis together. And he just made The Martian, another giant success. So I was surprised with him. Well, that's good. I've worked with Clint Eastwood twice, loved working with him. Changeling was sort of a haunting movie. It was a really haunting movie. And Angelina Jolie did an amazing job.

And she was really fun to work with and remains a friend, actually. Oh, good. Well, you're a friend. It seems like you got a lot of friends still. I do. I still have a lot of friends. And you seems like you got a lot of friends still. I do. I still have a lot of friends. And you seem like you're in good shape. Thanks.

And I appreciate you talking to me. Oh, thanks. Thanks for having me. Did I tell you? Did I tell you? Great talk. That was Brian Grazer. Again, his book is A Curious Mind, The Secret to a Bigger Life.

And I think he put the book out because he wants to share. God knows he doesn't need the bread. But that was a great talk. I enjoyed it. By the way, the music remix on the show was done by DJ Copley. Check him out at WebPuppy45 on Twitter. Our theme music is by John Montagna. You can go to wtfpod.com for all your WTF pod needs.

Get on the mailing list. Look at the merch. Get those poster orders in. You can do it today. It's getting tight. And my poster packer guy, Frankie, he's got to go away for Christmas too. So if you want to order merch or Brian Jones mugs or whatever you're going to order, do it.

What else, man? What else? Holidays are upon us. Yeah, I could play some guitar. For those of you who are like, wait, wait, is Mark going to play guitar? Because we've gotten used to that. Thank you. Boomer lives! It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth

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