WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 666 - Bob Forrest

Episode Date: December 24, 2015

Singer-songwriter Bob Forrest has a hell-and-back story befitting the 666th episode of WTF. Bob tells Marc how he became a drug counsellor after struggling with addiction while leading the band Thelonious Monster. He also explains why he felt Celebrity Rehab was desperately needed and why he worked with Dr. Drew to create it. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com. It's winter, and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So, no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs, mozzarella balls, and arancini balls?

Yes, we deliver those. Moose? No. But moose head? Yes. Because that's alcohol, and we deliver that too. Along with your favorite restaurant food, groceries, and other everyday essentials. Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly.

Product availability varies by region. See app for details. Lock the gate! Alright, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fucksters? What the fucking clauses?

That was my attempt at a Christmas moniker for you people, but it doesn't really make sense. What the fucking bells? Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. Welcome to the show this is mark maron this is my podcast wtf if you're just tuning in for your first time as we head into another year if everything goes well in the next couple weeks i think we'll all be heading into another year well most of us well let's not get grim you know what i'm saying i mean as a world the individuals come and go on any given day you know what i just i dug us into a hole right out of the gate and i was trying to fill this with holiday cheer and now i'm basically prophesying some of you will not be

alive in the new year and i'm not saying any of you in particularly god damn it why can't i just get out of this now let's let's just start over but not start over. Hey, how you doing? Happy holidays. I hope they're going well for you, and I'm looking forward to 2016. Did that seem honest? Look, what I meant to say is I hope everybody is having a pleasant and somewhat relaxing holiday, if that's possible.

I am because I'm on vacation, I am in my home state of Nuevo Mexico. I'm up in the Santa Fe area. I'll be heading to Albuquerque shortly. Go see my dad for a couple hours, try and make it through that. I'm here with the lady. Sarah's on the couch

it's been good it's been intimate already it's only been a few days you know I imagine this has been talked about by other people but you know when you're in a place where there's nowhere to hide and you can hear and smell things

just right over there and you just have to be here's my point i don't i think that one a big moment in a relationship probably has to be when both people eat the same thing that's bad and they both and it fucks them both up inside so so here you are in this situation where you're like well you know there's no second room there's only one bathroom and that that stuff fucked me up too in my stomach it's like we're gonna have to ride this out look i'm telling you man intimacy is a broad it's a big tent all right full of full full with with a full range of sounds and smells ranging from the beautiful to the grotesque. That is what love and relationship is about.

Engaging in all the sounds and smells of the person you're with. It's mostly me. Mostly me. I'm not going to throw her under the bus. I'm stinky and I make noises. That's just, I'm just putting that out there all right merry christmas did i say that merry christmas so i didn't even mention who's on the

show today bob forrest musician and uh sober guy rehab uh celebrity and coach and advisor. Might remember him from the Dr. Drew business. What was that? Celebrity rehab. He was in the band Thelonious Monster. Did a few records. And a notorious L.A. character. Primarily defined back in the day by his heroin use.

His most recent album is Survival Songs, which I like a lot. I'd never really listened to Thelonious Monster, and I put a little research in. I did my homework. And it's just interesting. I'd heard about them for years, and I'd heard about Bob for years,

and I'd even seen him around at the secret meetings and never talked to him. But this was a pretty amazing conversation. I know a lot of you got sort of hung up with the idea of uh you know what's uh what's episode 666 gonna be what's that gonna be man are you gonna interview satan dude what's it gonna be 666 what is that well this is episode 666 we didn't plan it out we didn't

we didn't use that context to deliver you some ironic or non ironic relative guest to 666 so I'm gonna bend this one into something that you sort of latent Satanist and people who are mystified by the triple number.

I'm going to try to bend it into something for you. Like, for instance, quite honestly, on this planet and in this life, there's fewer things that can be honestly called demonic possession other than heroin. Heroin is as close as one can get, I think, to demonic possession. Because it robs you of your will and it takes over your life and it destroys you from the inside and the outside and it makes you do things that you would never do if you weren't under the spell and addiction to heroin heroin is the fucking devil now anything can be a devil you know if you let it go too far that's what them sins are all about

you know what i mean food food can do a number on you power lust envy you know seven deadlies swath get those things get too far with you you know that's that's the work of the devil there but heroin heroin because it was so romanticized by so many people is uh no doubt the devil or definitely a franchise heroin is a franchise of satan if there is a satan if that's your thing if uh if you uh you know depends how you look at it where your missus where your mystical um parameters are what those are but bob forrest is a great example of somebody who fought that fucking devil, came out the other side with an amazing amount of self-awareness and creative energy, and also helps a tremendous amount of other people.

See, you know, you fight with the fucking devil, and then maybe you come out with some good stories and a little bit of wisdom, and he's one of those cats. And I was excited to talk to him. And obviously we had a conversation that had a lot to do with that. And those of you out there on the holiday, I've been getting a lot of emails from people struggling with addiction, alcoholism, people wondering whether or not they're an alcoholic.

Generally, from where i'm sitting in my experience if you're asking other people if you might be an alcoholic i would say you're probably an alcoholic if the if it comes into your head where like you're sitting there you know and you've just shit your bed or something you're like i wonder if i have a drinking problem no you probably do i would would say. A couple of red flags. Peeing in your sleep, in your bed, shitting your bed. Those are big red flags. Losing everything.

Sitting in a room alone. Weeping. Wondering where your life went. But still saying, I need a drink. That might be bad. If a lot of people tell you, you might have a drinking problem. That's not easy for other people to say. And it's not, I don't think it's said lightly usually. So you know who you are. And I, and I, and I hope you take care of that. There's things you can do. There's places you can

call. I know there are some people that say, and this is an important holiday message. Depression too. Get help. There's help out there. And I'm not going to tell you what help to get. You know, it's each to their own. If you think something's going to work for you, try it. Just get off the shit.

Get the devil out of you if you can by any means necessary. Just do it for a few days. See how you feel. You'll spin around. You'll freak out. But you get through it. People are built to adapt. And let's do a couple of corrections and then get on with it i have a couple of corrections on the brian grazer episode apparently a lot of people rightfully so uh and but folks

it's not so much that i'm getting old but you know i have brain farts and problems and you know i use the wrong word i'm not norm crosby level it's not my act but i'll fucking i'm you know i used the wrong word like apparently in the brian grazer episode i use the word deliberate power which i don't even know if it really makes any sense as opposed to delegate i've made note of that and i've uh rewired my brain to not use that word inappropriately anymore it's not inappropriately. Wrong. It wasn't inappropriate. It just was the wrong word.

In my conversation with Horatio Sands, apparently we were both talking about different movies. He was talking about Crank, and I was talking about Crank 2. And we never really got resolution around that. That I was literally telling him he was wrong, but he was right and I was right. They were just different movies. I couldn't imagine, I guess, that they would make make a second one so I thought I was seeing the only one though it's pretty compelling the other thing I'd like to direct you towards um and I'm you know look I I'm not that self-serving or self-promoting really

I do a podcast but you know it's usually a some sort of fucked up internal wrestling match. But a guy by the name of James Parker wrote a piece on me and my show, this show, for The Atlantic. The title of the piece is Mark Maron's Brilliant Mistakes. The star podcaster's success is rooted in his early career failure and despair. Of course, I'm going to read stuff about me. But look, I'll tell you this. I don't Google search my name.

Look, I'm not trying to appear humble or like I have humility. I just don't have a Google search on my name. And I don't do that shit. I wait till it gets to me some other way. So somebody sent me the link to this on Twitter the other day. And this is a well-written piece.

It's like it's got a point. It's got a context, a historical and stuff. I know it's about me, but I'm just saying that there are people that write criticism out there that are thoughtful writers. And I'll take shit and I don't mind being characterized badly in a piece if there's a point to it and this guy though it's you know a very uh a nice piece about me the way he describes me i think if it was in another context or even if i was reading this wrong i would be like why is he saying that about me like am i really that guy but you know what i am the guy that he depicted here and i learned some things about myself and about the show because i didn't i don't think the way somebody outside of me thinks.

And this guy wrote a very thoughtful, eloquent, pointed piece of criticism. See, a lot of people don't fucking understand in this culture what real criticism is and that there's a context and there's cultural relevance to it. But in order to keep their job, they write clickbait bullshit. They write snarky reviews. But in order to keep their job, they write clickbait bullshit. They write snarky reviews. There's a definite difference between a review and a piece of criticism.

And real critics are real writers. Reviewers are generally any asshole. And clickbait is cancer. Merry Christmas. Did I mention Merry Christmas? I want to make sure that's clear. Hope you're having a good holiday. And be careful, will you, this holiday season?

Don't hurt yourself in one way or another, emotionally, physically. Don't hurt other people. All right, just try. Try. Oh, wait. I just remembered something. Before I forget, again, to promote my own thing, Marin, season three, my IFC show,

will be on Netflix starting December 28th. That's a little uplifting stuff you can have between Christmas and New Year's. You can binge watch Marin season three. I know some of you are waiting to get caught up. Gets a little intense. Gets a little heavy this season. But enjoy Marin season three, again netflix starting december 28th all right so that's i did it i promoted myself i can do it i can do it uh right now we're going to go uh to my conversation with bob forrest as i said his

new album is a folk album actually called survival songs and he is going to play a couple after our chat. It's available now. Happy holidays. I'll talk to you after Bob. Calgary is a city built by innovators. Innovation is in the city's DNA, and it's with this pedigree that bright minds and future-thinking problem solvers

are tackling some of the world's greatest challenges from right here in Calgary. From cleaner energy, safe and secure food, efficient movement of goods and people, and better health solutions, Calgary's visionaries are turning heads around the globe, across all sectors, each and every day. Calgary's on the right path forward.

Take a closer look how at calgaryeconomicdevelopment.com. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto rock take on the Colorado mammoth at a special 5. PM start time on Saturday, March 9th at first Ontario center in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of backley construction.

Punch your ticket to kids night on Saturday, March 9th at 5. PM in rock city at TorontoRock.com. I picked up the new record today, the Survival Songs. Yeah. It's fucking great, man. I got it yesterday and I man i got it yeah i got it yesterday and i just started you know i just listened to it real close and uh like i'm not a big lyrics guy

and i'm not necessarily you know i don't know how much new folk music i listen to or whether you call it that but uh but vander barnard you're not you're not playing that stuff no man but uh it really resonated with me seemed real honest and some of the songs are just they're just fucking great man well thank you

do you look at this new record as like one of your best I just wanted it to be in people's faces I think that America's lost its storytelling and my dad used to

tell stories and yeah he didn't know if half of them were true or half of half of what he was telling you was true but didn't matter about storytelling that yeah that like studs turkle and gore vidal and all these people they used to just tell stories yeah and it's not around anymore we don't have time we don't have time, Bob. No time for stories. Well, stories teach us. We're going to have to wait until the end of this story?

Yeah. Yeah. Well, it was very compelling. So that's where it came from, is that you were writing. But it seemed like most of those things, I talked to a lot of songwriters in here, where, you know, and I always assume that everybody's writing from a first-person point of view. Those seem pretty personal to me. They're personal. Right.

They're my perspective, my life. So storytelling was the inspiration. Well, it always has been. I wanted to be a poet in college, and poetry wasn't too popular. Tough record. Yeah. That's really turned around. But you missed a real opportunity there, Bob.

You should have stuck with that. I should have stuck with it, because I was up in San Francisco. They're going for it like crazy up there now. Well, where'd you grow up? In here in LA. Really? Palm Desert. Palm Desert.

Yeah. Out there. Out in the desert just like you. Desert guy. Yeah. Not like that desert. Albuquerque may be desert, but it sort of passes as a city. I mean, Palm Desert's kind of desert.

There was nothing. But that's, how far is that from Desert Hot Springs? It was like 20, 30 miles. It's fucking nuts out there. So how far is that from Desert Hot Springs? It's like 20, 30 miles. It's fucking nuts out there. So how the hell did you end up there? Was your dad an out there? Well, I was an illegitimate child, and so my parents wanted to hide me. What?

Yeah, it was my sister's son. Really? So your sister's how much older than you? 15 years. So they just... We had a vacation house down there, and I guess they just... Well, here's this this forest story is my dad had three daughters and he wanted his middle daughter got pregnant

at 14 and so they put her in saint anne's home for unwed mothers here in silver lake really yeah it's catholics and my dad apparently said because he's my dad he's who raised me he said if it's a boy we'll adopt it if it's a girl it goes up to catholic charities right that's old school and he wanted a son and he got one and he spoiled me and he was the greatest but you were so do you know who your father is i know his name but you never i tried to track him down two or three times and he doesn't want any contact. So your sister's your mom? Yeah. Right.

Well, the way you were brought up. Not in Chinatown type way, not like incest, but in a rock and roll-y Elvis Presley way. Sure, I get it. Because she told me when she was, you know, she didn't really know about sex, but her boyfriend had a 45 player in the glove compartment of his truck. Right. And so they'd park and pull that thing out and put Elvis and Jerry Lee on. They had a slide in the dash 45 player? Yeah, it came out of the glove box and the 45 player was just sitting there.

So he rigged it up. Yeah, he rigged it up. Right. Yeah. And that's how he seduced her? Yeah. But I guess so because that was, how much older are you than me? 61.

So it was the early 60s, just coming out of the 50s. What she did was pretty bad news. Yeah. For the family and culturally. Well, what happened was they, my family, you know, thought of themselves as some Los Angeles family. So they had a vacation house. you know thought of themselves as some los angeles family so they had a vacation house so they just decided you know my mom who raised me and my three sisters and i would live in the desert house until i was like five and then i would come back and everybody would just not notice i guess so that

was the plan they did yeah they sort of came back for kindergarten and this was your dad's idea yeah that like we just had this other kid? Yeah, we just, you know, late in life. Jesus Christ. You know, we were on the rhythm method. We didn't know what happened. Yeah. What was your dad's business?

He had thrifty mart, supermarkets. He owned them? No, he built them. Oh, he's a contractor? And they were famous here in LA because they had big T signs. Yeah. You know, one of the great things he died when i was 15 but one of the great things that was touching for me is in

joan didion's play it as it lays which is one of the greatest novels written about la when she's going to get her abortion what's it called i gotta play it as it lays by joan didion okay when she's going to get an abortion, the character or whatever, they say, get on the Hollywood freeway and go north and get off as soon as you see the big red T.

That's my dad's signs. Yeah. They're these 40-foot tall neon signs. All gone. Yeah, they're all gone. Wow. It's smart and final now. Not as exciting.

So, all right, so you're out in the desert with your sisters and your mom. Your dad's in town building shit. And what are you doing out there? Well, how many, I can't, I can pick, that's not 29 Palms, Palm Desert. Palm Desert is, you know,

well, years later when I went to Joshua Tree, it's very much like Joshua Tree. It was very rural. There was nothing, just desert and date trees. And we rode motorcycles and caught lizards. You thought you had a pretty good childhood? It was great. Yeah?

Yeah. And you had some friends? Because I know Josh Ami comes from Desert Hot Springs. Yeah, those guys are much younger. No, I know. It was a city by the time they were born. Yeah, but it was crazy out there. There's still something about desert rats and desert life and people yeah right yeah i have a house out in

pioneer town i there's desert people they just they're their own breed like drifters and eccentrics and meth heads yeah anti-social but right uh idealist they they build shit out there. Yeah, they build art. Big ideas. There's guys out there, they build these huge art installations with the intention of nobody seeing them. Out of bottles. That kind of shit. It's wild, man.

Did you ever go over to that Integratron thing? Yeah. What's the story in there? I was living in a cave and well he was kind of thought he was talking to aliens i think right it was he was starting to trying to start some sort of commune yeah yeah well everybody was back then yeah hell yeah i want to start one now and you're and you kind of have one don't you i want to start one you have a recovery commune oh they're super secret society yeah that's what i like to call it, secret society meetings.

We're not so secret on this show. I don't use the name. I don't utter the name. It's always been a problem for me. I mean, it must be tricky. I mean, it's weird. I often wonder because I missed a lot of that generation of music that you come from with Thelonious Monster and Bicycle Thief

and some of that LA music. I didn't get into it until later because I wasn't out here and I was really mainstream oriented but I was wondering before you came over What would you like? Like Steely Dan? No, fuck no. I love Steely Dan. I'm not a Steely Dan. You picked the one band. The one band.

Drink scotch whiskey all night long. No, I get it. And die behind the wheel. I get it. Yeah, but it's a little too, I don't feel like that guy's dying, and he hasn't. There's not enough menace in those tunes, bro. I mean, I can understand.

There's something about it that it's so slick and jazzy and cool, and the lyrics are so depressing and suicidal and rugged. Look, I have the records. I try every so often to engage, and it's not unlike me to. I do engage. So you like Skinner?

Of course. I love Skinner. I love Skinner. It had all the records. Me too. I like the Stones. Early on in the late 70s, I got a box of records with some shit in it from the record store next door to where I worked as a high school kid.

They were like R&B focused. And they had this big box of Rock Rides Grits they gave me. Like they had Elvis Costello's first record in there. And what else? I think the Talking Heads. Sometimes I wish that I could stop you from talking when I hear them silly things that you say. Right. Oh, God.

That album was a gut puncher. Really was. But other than that, fairly standard townie fare. I had some inspiration. Fog hat? A little bit of fog hat, a little before my time, but certainly on the radio. Had all the Skinner records. Had a few Dead records.

Had the Stones records. Had the Beatles records. A lot of Bowie. Had a lot of Bowie. A lot of Bowie. Pretty important to me. And then there was a guy at that record store who was an art rock dude, turned me on to The Residents, turned me on to Fred Frith, Brian Eno.

My five-year-old's favorite song is Constantinople. Oh, yeah? Yeah, he calls them the eyeball people. Yeah. And his name is Elvis after Elvis Costello. Oh, after that Elvis, good. You make a differentiation. Oh, now he's five and he tells people, oh, after Elvis Presley, he says, no, Elvis Costello. Yeah, after that Elvis. Good. You make a differentiation. Oh, he now, he's five and he tells people, oh, after Elvis Pesci.

He says, no, Elvis Costello. Yeah. He was sitting right there last week, Elvis Costello. Yeah, he's got the book out. Yeah. A lot of, a lot of, yeah. So that was sort of where I came from. If it weren't for that guy that turned me on to the residents and that stuff, I don't

know if my mind ever would have been blown. Was it Bow Wow Records? No, Bow Wow Records came much later. Is he still in business? We used to play there. Sure. We used to play there. With the Dalmatian spots on it.

Yeah. Up on Central. Yeah. That guy was sort of kind of dickish, but he was all right. He let you play there. Yeah. No, back when I was a kid, it was Natural Sound next to the General Store, which was a head shop over by the university.

It was all wooden or across the street from the university. That's right. I remember that place. Yep. Yep. Because I started touring in 83, roadie-ing for the Chili Peppers. Was that their first album?

Yeah, 83. Up with Rofo Party Plan? Yeah. Holy shit. No, no, no. The first one was called Red Hot Chili Peppers. It was only like 28 minutes long or something. Oh, really?

Yeah. And that was with, who was guitar playing? Was it Israel? Well, no. Hillel never made the first record. He came back. They got a guitar player named Jack Sherman. He played on that record in that tour but he isn't fit no with no wrong kind of playing a teetotaler so how do you get from so palm desert you did you

did they make you go to catholic school oh of course so you're real shit you real fucking died in the wool catholic oh yeah like I'm a God-fearing atheist. Yeah, but still God-fearing. I don't believe in him, but just in case. I'm in a world of shit. You're making up for it, man. I am trying to break even. That's what I always say.

But you brought up with a real fear of hell. Oh, yeah, for sure. If you masturbate or all that kind of stuff. And you went of stuff and you went to confession you had a priest oh yeah catholicism sort of fascinates me i mean in retrospect what are your feelings about it the mind fuck of it it's changed a lot but it was like to me it was like child cruelty you know right you know what i mean yeah but i tell you the funniest thing ever happened i was an altar boy right and my job was to hold the tray in case the host might fall out of the mouth of one of my students coughing up the body mass every

morning right so i'm 13 12 maybe 12 and the girls always went on one side and the boys on the other side of the church that kept them all separate right. But in the same room, of course. And so I'm doing the tray and I remember like it was yesterday. All of a sudden, looking at these girls like that. With their mouth open. And me holding the tray, I got a hard heart.

Yeah. And I was like, and the priest knew it too. It was just like, holy shit, this is the greatest job ever. The priest knew it, of course he knew it and uh and so so you went to catholic school and all your sisters any of them turn out to be nuns any of them no no any of them my sister mom's been married like five times your sister mom yeah has been married it's like a mormon thing

yeah sister mom what about the other sisters? My one younger sister, the younger of the three, died from Lou Gehrig's disease a few years ago. So, it's crushing. Oh my God. How long did that go on for? Like three years. And how old was she? She was only in her early 50s. And that's when it

came on, huh? Yeah. Wow. And, you know, when I first, you know, we were trying to find out what it is, and I was standing in the nurse's station at our rehab years ago, and I wrote this, the long-term thing, and Dr. Drew was standing over to my right, and he looked down and he goes, who has that? And I said, my sister.

And he goes, oh, fuck. And I was like, what is it? And he goes, it's known as lou gehrig's disease and and and and so you know you know you're gonna get sick that's the torture of it and it's what it's one of those ones where you lose complete muscular control eventually you're just inside your body and it's not working oh my god how fucked up is that and you well you were sober and therefore right i was trying where was she in huntington beach oh she was close yeah yeah you were trying what they wouldn't let you hear

well i was like the black sheep of the family my brother-in-laws have never really quite taken to me oh yeah and plus i know now because i've i've been married a few times too. And that thing with girls and their brothers, I don't understand it, but what is it? Do you know what I'm talking about? They just love their brothers no matter how big of fuck-ups they are, and I was a fuck-up for decades. But the husbands didn't go for it. Oh, they were not.

And just couldn't seem to, no matter how long I stayed sober or did the right thing it was just didn't matter or were they stiffs were they uh uh uh what do you call they're like republicans if that's what you mean sure i was trying to use an old term that that uh sort of covers a lot i grew up in republican land and i've been a liberal or whatever you call it what do you call these days progressive sure whatever you want progressive used to do you call it these days? Progressive? Sure, whatever you want. Progressive, liberal, lefty. It used to be a commie. I liked when they called us commies.

Yeah. That's a little specific now. You got to broaden it out. It's Big Ten. Progressive. Yeah, sure. Progressive's good. Progressive in thought.

Yeah. So I remember I was watching, you know, my dad was watching the news and it was the Vietnam War and I was like eight or seven. Yeah. And I went up to the tv and it was right when they were starting to show when cronkite wanted to show the blood of the war yeah right and so i said to my dad that's not real blood is it and he said bobby get out of here it's none of your goddamn business and i was like the real kids are getting killed this is fucked up at seven or eight i knew

it was wrong now i'm 54 i know it's wrong right yeah you know when we feel it it's strange though how obsessed and uh kind of you know this obsessed with war the world is and particularly the american perspective of war well after that war american got you know pretty cynical about it once they sort of started to see the truth of it and and the the confusing uh you needed a better agenda you needed a better enemy now we've got the greatest enemy of all yeah ourselves well but but was your dad that guy was monster? No, he was a fun guy. He was a larger than life guy.

That kind of post-war guy. Golfer, hunter, fun, dodger games. Did you learn how to play golf? Yeah, oh yeah, it was pretty good. Yeah? Well, what the fuck are you going to do out there? I've been golfing since I was like three. Do you golf now?

No, I can't do it. What happened was I played in high school and college, and then, of course, I found all kinds of other things, more interesting things. Not drugs predominantly, but girls. Yeah, and fuck golf. Golf wasn't too cool, I guess. Golf is not going to get you too popular.

Well, I guess at the time you were growing up, which is a little ahead of me, I mean, there were two paths. Do you know what I mean? If you're going to choose the golf path, it's not as cool as slog, and the chicks are certainly different than the rock and roll path. Yeah, the rock and roll thing. Well, it was really Lenny Bruce. There's the book.

I read it when I was 13 years old. Ladies and gentlemen. Goldman's book? Goldman's book. I read that i went and saw lenny at the movies did that come out in 74 that sounds about right i was 13 i went and saw it and i was just became obsessed with him i always have been yeah so wait so you go you you you play you go to high school you do the catholic thing where do you go to college

i go to college lots of different places, like for years and years. Yeah. LACC, Golden West College in Huntington Beach. I faked my way into Cornell for a semester. How'd you do that? Because it was before computers. And I got financial, I got... Isn't that in upstate New York?

Yeah, yeah. I had an aunt that lived up there. I had to get out of L.A. The black beauties were killing me. Speed. I remember those open them up and snort them

yeah and those yellow jackets I don't everybody talks about those I don't know what those are they had black beauties here and you could open them up

and snort them and the white crosses yeah yeah I don't remember snorting yellow jackets I want to hear an interesting story about the super secret society when I was a senior

in high school yeah I used to drink Bacardi and Coke in class you know yeah i lived on my own i lived in my own apartment yeah and a del taco cup and so my teacher my english teacher who i really like said uh could i talk to you after school bobby and i was like okay so i came and you know and she said do you think you have a drinking problem and I was like no and she goes she goes would you be interested because I used to have a drinking problem and I don't drink anymore would you be want would you want to come and meet some people that

I uh like I forget how she phrased it right and she was a lesbian so I knew she's asking me to go somewhere with her yeah I want to I didn't really know what lesbians were, but I wanted to go where lesbians were. Sure. So I went with her. It was a 12-step meeting in Laguna Beach. Chuck C. was probably there. Yeah. I remember I was 17.

I remember thinking, this is good for old people. Right. I'm just starting drinking. I don't know how these people got here. They must misunderstand it. I like the stories. I like that old people got together and didn't drink. That's another interesting thing that you bring up stories

because the narrative of an AA pitch is at times the most moving thing. It really is. Like it kills me every time. Like I think it taught me how to feel properly. Me too. You too? Yeah. Because like I find, you know, that-

And identification. Sure. You identify. You get it. And then that moment where AA reaches out or they find it and you start, I started getting weepy, man. I do.

It's like there's this natural turn where this life is saved, life is changed. So that story thing is really cathartic. But now, you know, Southern California has been perverted by rehabs. There's 3,000 rehabs around here. So the 12-step thing gets nowadays those stories now become the solution. I'm going to tell you how to do it. Right.

You know, which is a real problem for me. I'll ask somebody I like to tell me how to do it. Right, right. I don't need your opinion of how to do it right you know which is a real problem for me i'll figure i'll ask somebody i like to tell me how to do it right i don't need your opinion right yeah to do let me find somebody who has what i want who i identify right right and so it's become so solution oriented and telling people do the steps and do this and do that that's the sort of thing about uh well rehab's AA for profit. Yeah. So, you know. Well, I mean, this is an interesting point of view for someone that helped commercialize it in a way. I know. You know, publicly and media-wise. And I will pay for that after I'm gone.

You feel that? Yeah, I know. Out of all the things? That's what you're going to go to hell for? Celebrity rehab. That's right. You're going to die and get to the gate. They're going to go and get to the gate.

They're going to go, you put celebrities on television suffering from disease of alcoholism? And I was like, yep. How many seasons? Five. Y'all, you're going to hell. I know, for sure. Everything else you did, we can forgive you for. Stealing money out of my mom's purse.

No problem. No problem. Exploiting sick celebrities celebrities one of the worst thing i ever did i used to steal from a friend of mine that lived in los feliz because i felt that he had a lot of things and yeah i didn't have any yeah you know that rationalization sure so when laserdisc first came out he he had a bunch of them yeah right and so and they were very valuable if you remember sure like because no one had the machines it's like a very rare thing very elite thing yeah so i'd grab like you know three or four and put them by the front door and take them and go sell them get dope

and one time i was selling them yeah and it was the lion king he had like a seven-year-old daughter and i was like you had a seven-year-old yeah yeah and i was like oh and they were going through it at rockaway over there in silver lake they're like i go oh no no i don't want to sell that one because i knew it was his daughter's and i was like gonna sneak it back in or something and he says disney is 20 bucks i said oh okay yeah and in the okay the rationalization of the junkie is i'm gonna sell to sell it right now. Yeah. I'm going to come back when things are, you know. Right, sure. Buy it back.

Yeah, buy it back and sneak it back in. But right now, that's two bags, right? Yeah. So the fact was, you know, it was the worst thing I ever did. And you're fucking nodding off and there's some 70-year-old girl crying, where's the Lion King?

And you're in downtown going going sorry kid priorities priorities so all right so you're drinking at 17 but like when you're how long did you fake at cornell just like four months till they caught me well what what the thing was i got i got both social security because my dad had died and i got financial aid how'd he die he he died of suicide actually yeah was he sick yeah he was sick oh so it was like he took himself out yeah he had one of the first open heart surgeries in california didn't he didn't like it made you an invalid back then you like literally went from because you're all purple and you just couldn't golf he couldn't do much he couldn't eat the way he wanted.

He couldn't smoke. He couldn't drink. And he just felt like his life was over. Then his best friend shot himself. Before he killed himself? Yeah, a couple weeks before. Oh my God. And you knew that guy too? Yeah, Curly Einboden. One of the greatest guys

ever. My dad's best friend. Why'd he kill himself because he was having health issues too really yeah and and it's still going on too proud to go through you can you can drink and drug yourself crazy if you know what you're doing let's say but you hit mid 50s late 50s you're gonna you're gonna implode yeah right right i've watched my friends in this generation i'm 54 i've watched the people that didn't go to rehab or gets over because they just drink or they do dope on the weekends or whatever do some coke and then they put coke behind them they just physically implode right around now

really yeah because yeah liver can't take it but my heart can't take it isn't that wild yeah it's fucked up you want it to last longer well no, no, because I've got 16 years. So I stopped when I was like, what? 35 or something. 35. Me too. 35. And I'd gotten enough in, but I didn't go as hard as you.

But there have been guys- You know the price of dope. Uh-uh. $10. Yeah. Well, yeah, I knew that. That's the guy that knows. was not my thing no no how'd you know it was ten dollars well i tried a couple times but it didn't stick i was lucky really do

you like it no i like going up and i never was a needle guy so it was all coke and weed and drinking for me and what town was it mostly going on here or in new york uh it was mostly i guess it would have been mostly in new york i you know i got i started in college a lot of coke and then you know and then when i got out here i got fucked up on coke and i got psychotic and i had to leave i was here for a year at the comedy store hanging out with kennison i lost my mind from coke and sleep deprivation yeah and then i cleaned up the first time went back to boston where i went to school and sort of started over i get a year and a half here year and and a half there, never locked into the program.

And I'd always pick up with the Coke and booze again. Coke, really? Yeah, yeah. I don't know. It was always my thing. And I never knew enough about drug guys to get fucking downers. Like I was always the guy up all night next to a sleeping chick who was just like not on coke thinking i was gonna die never never had a goddamn valium connection never got into dope to come down i imagine if somebody had said like this

dope if you snort this it'll take you back down it would have been a different life for me or it might have been over yeah yeah but you know the the thing about coke i had a lot of friends that were on coke um just like it calmed hyper people down that's sort of what i did to me yeah you know you kind of lock in to a like a weird kind of peaceful confidence yeah peaceful yeah and it makes me agitated i need heroin but i do that all the time so all right so you go to cornell for four months and then you come back and your dad commits suicide but that was when you were 15 so we're jumping around but i guess i'm trying to focus in on where the torture comes from well no where is it where does it start where did you get turned on to lenny bruce what were you doing with that sort of through the switch well i was a

lonely kind of isolated kid right so the desert when you grow up in the desert, there's nobody around. It's just a bunch of retired people, really. Yeah. And so really my room was always my sanctuary. That's where I listened to Bowie's Star Dust or the Beach Boys. I loved the Beach Boys. Did you? Loved them.

And so I'd listen to the Beach Boys. To me, the Beach Boys are always sad music. No, he makes me terribly sad. It's sad. Yeah. People think it's so happy. When I listen to Pet Sounds, it's Boys are always sad music. No, he makes me terribly sad. It's sad. People think it's so happy. When I listen to Pet Sounds, it's almost unbearable. It's like listening to Daniel Johnston music. It was really something.

Yeah, it was just like, I just hear this fucking weird, almost bottomless pain. I had a funny thing where Bob Dylan played the Greek theater, and I was walking in that guest thing, this in the late 80s or something. And I happened to be right behind Brian Wilson and his Dr. Eugene Landy. Yeah. And we were walking in that backstage area and Bob Dylan was standing there.

And I just happened to be like three feet away from Bob Dylan. Just, I'd seen Bob Dylan play, and I just had a backstage pass. Right. Brian Wilson comes up, and Bob Dylan goes, Hey, Brian. And Brian Wilson's looking confused, and he goes, It's Bob. It's Bob. And Brian Wilson's like...

And Bob Dylan explains how they know each other. Really? It was the weirdest thing. That's so sad. When you watch the movie that came out, I think that Eugene Landy had him so doped up on medicine. I don't think that's really, he was that disconnected from reality. It was medicine, probably, you know, Thorazine and all kinds of crazy psych.

So Bob had to explain who he was? Who he was and how they knew each other. And I was just sitting there like privy to this really weird rock and roll moment. Yeah. And that doctor right next to him. Yeah. Incredible. So you're out in the desert.

You're listening to Ziggy's. Yep. And where's Lenny come in? Lenny came in because I saw the movie. I loved movies. Movies is what you could do. You could go see the world right down at the Palm Desert Twin. And they were playing Lenny.

Bob Fosse's Lenny. Yeah. Yeah. And you're like, who the fuck is this guy? I saw Chinatown, Lenny. Bob Fosse's Lenny. Yeah. Yeah. And you're like, who the fuck is this guy? I saw Chinatown Lenny, Godfather 2. Those are the best. That was the greatest era of movies. I just watched both Godfathers back to back.

Great. Dude, Michael Corleone, baby. Great, man. I mean, like just those two generations of method guys acting the fuck out of that movie. Going right at it. I know. It's crazy. It's really something.

So I saw Lenny and I just, that whole world, it was kind of like the books I was reading at the time, like On the Road. Beatnik shit.

Yeah. So then I got that book, that Albert Goldman book, and it was literally my Bible. Like when I used to tour in Thelonious Monster, I toured like how Lenny Bruce did with a briefcase

full of magazines and books, cassettes, ghetto blaster, tinfoil, tinfoil up the windows. Really? Yeah. Every hotel. You learned it from Lenny? Yeah, that's what he would do. That was your model. Well, everybody, rock and roll is very, it's a very kind of imitating thing.

Yeah. You know what I mean? Sure. And what's funny is so many people imitating uh you know keith richards and david bowie right you know david bowie and his cocaine arrow when he's so thin or whatever oh yeah we young americans yeah yeah and and so a lot of it's like it feeds off itself nowadays kids are doing it like they think john fashante did it he's i've seen him look pretty bad sometimes. Yeah, yeah.

Oh, he was there. He was out there as far as you can go. I got a record that came out not too long ago, and I did not get what he was doing. Oh, the techno stuff? Yeah, and maybe just the last record. What's the last record? Yeah, it's called Venetian Snares.

It's all techno. Yeah, it's not my cup of tea, let's say. Where is this at, man? Where is he at? He's at, I know exactly where he's at. Well, you got your buddies, right? He's at that he doesn't want to have to, you know, rock gets so big. Yeah.

And it's just like theater. You have to stand in this place. Right. Because the lights are programmed. Right. You got to play this song. Uh-huh. That way. Uh-huh.

You know what I mean? Uh-huh. And he's just not that type of guy. But he's a hell of a guitar player he's the best and when he played with the chili peppers you guys go how you guys go way back right way back till when john was 16 he was in the lonely sponsor for a minute yeah and then the chili pepper song play so you all right so you're getting into any bruce when do you first find drugs in palm desert? How the fuck does that happen? Well, alcohol.

Right. We used to break into vacation houses. You know what I mean? Yeah. It was great. Oh, yeah. Oh, it was like the rivers, not the rivers, over the edge. Remember that Matt Dillon movie?

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what my life was like. Right. We like, you know, we would steal golf carts because the people would just park their golf carts in the breezeways, they were called. They didn't have garages. They had breezeways. They just plug them in.

We'd just unplug them and go drive around with them. But the cops must have known you. Well, yes. Bobby Forrest, Tommy Pelletti, David Vaughn, Scott Sims. One of my gang was the principal's son, Scott Sims. Yeah, yeah. So we were like a gang of hoodlums. And we started really getting more and more daring like when we were like 14 15

and it was in the newspaper this vandalism stuff and one of them brought it to school they're like dude we're gonna get caught and i go where'd you get that because like i was the tough guy of the group yeah i was like dude don't fucking say a word what are you doing yeah you know i was holding our gang together right don't crumble right now and who ratted anyone right scott got caught the principal's son he threw everyone under i just played innocent like mom i don't know what they're talking about oh yeah i wasn't involved in any of that uh-huh so i learned yeah my parents were older they didn't know okay sonny i know bobby you would never do that it's all right so you're drinking you're breaking into houses when's rock and roll start well when i start playing it or not playing it but i i moved to la in 1980 and i had a apartment going to la

city college and the the thing that fueled me was my dad's money and that social security as long as i went to college i had money to live right uh-huh but he had a trust yeah and social security and all these school loans you could just keep rolling i went to college from 79 to like 85 i think i probably have like six months of credits but i started you knew what you had to do. Yeah, I started going to the clubs in Hollywood on Hollywood Boulevard, and then I started DJing. I told them I was a DJ, and they didn't know.

Did you have records? I had a fake ID. I had a crate of records. I played Michael Jackson, a little defunct. Remember that band, Defunct? Yeah. And that's how I met Anthony and Flea, because I was like a DJ on Hollywood Boulevard at the Cathay de Grand and at the Club Lingerie. In that's how I met Anthony and Flea because I was like a DJ on Hollywood Boulevard at the Cafe de Grand

and at the Club Lingerie. In 1980, so what bands were you seeing? I was seeing Dream Syndicate. That was the greatest band. What's his name?

Steve Wynn? Yeah. Or is it Jeff? Carl Picotta and Dennis Duck. What was Wynn's first name? Steve. It was Steve.

Yeah. They were so great. Yeah. Days of Wine and Roses is a fucking masterpiece. And I like Medicine Show too. Yeah, me too. I love that fucking- John Coltrane on the stereo so great. Yeah, Days of Wine and Roses is a fucking masterpiece. And I like Medicine Show, too. Yeah, me too. I love that fucking-

John Coltrane on the stereo, baby. Yeah, and Daddy's Girl. Yeah. Oh, I fucking love that. They were so good. Yeah. And that Salvation Army and then Black Flag Circle Jerks. That was their time.

Yeah, but I wasn't a punk rocker. I never like- But that was like second wave, right? Yeah. So that was- Were the Blasters- X Blasters. Yeah, Los Lobos. Right right that was the greatest era well that was did you talk to me in the rhythm pigs you ever heard of them oh man we so you did you

gravitate more towards that Americana stuff yeah always rock and roll yeah honest and earnest but not punk rock I didn't like the beating up people i didn't get it i like public image a lot oh yeah yeah but well he's like a clown yeah nowadays an old clown he's got he's got a national geographic show doesn't he i don't know yeah he's like a travel they've offered him to interview and i'm just like i don't know if i could put up with it like i don't know where he's at with talking but like you watch every interview that guy does i know a little bit about him because we had the same manager he's actually a really interesting good renaissance guy yeah but he puts on the johnny rotten thing yeah it's like when he's raised his his um wife's daughter's child children yeah right as his own

his wife's daughter's kid yeah yeah i'm sure he's a good guy. Yeah. It's just like I don't have time to try to beat down a wall of Johnny Rotten to get to the good guy. I've heard you beat things down. I was a little nervous coming here. I was like, what is he going to get out of here? Well, you're pretty wide open. I try to be. We speak the same language.

I don't beat too many people down. Sometimes I got to push a little. Because you don't want the bullshit, right? Well, yeah, it's just sort of like, you know. I got a new album out. Well, there's some of that, but also people who talk a lot publicly have a public narrative.

And it's not necessarily that it's a lie or that it's bullshit, but they don't need me to do it. You know, so it's just a matter of engaging. You know what I mean? Sometimes you just, some guys just see it as prompting you know prompting this and we all do it you do it i do it but you know there has to be a

moment where we're just talking yeah that's what i think that's special about your show and the idea that you're not going to come in here and just railroad like i have a new album a new movie a new book yeah but how do you keep pure that's what i really i really wanted to ask you some questions how do you keep here because you must be bribed like a motherfucker to just go along to get along and i i hate all the fucking talk the nighttime talk shows oh yeah it's all such bullshit well i'm pure because they got no boss and you know i i you know i get offered a lot but of people but we don't do junk and interviews sometimes we'll line shit up in order to get the guest, but we always sort of pretty clear.

It's like, well, this is the way we do the show, so can they do this for an hour? And most of the time it works out, but there's no muscle. Obviously, occasionally you think ahead. You must have been bribed. By who? I always think there's a corruptibility to this town once you get on your spot. Here's the biggest bribe that happens.

My old manager, Dave Becky, says, we interview Bob? I'm like, yeah, fuck yeah, I'll interview Bob. Becky, Becky, my biggest advocate. He's a great guy. He's really something. No, but that's a friend thing but there's no the weird thing is i operate in this odd space where for some reason that machine respects me and they listen to my show but they can't buy it so they you know they like having people on it and they like listening to it and sometimes they have clients but you know i can't get everybody either

not everybody wants to do this so there's no real move there's nothing they can gain from it other than letting me talk to people well here's my thing is that the whole world is focused on how many twitter followers somebody has right that's demands that's fading but yeah yeah it's bullshit yeah it's bullshit oh yeah it's bullshit you know it was a good run for a little while but before that it was pay-per-clicks because i i'm a rehab guy really and I know marketing and how they it doesn't mean shit yeah actually what gets down to it is word of mouth sure right and people liking the show you know like a with a show like this where you're doing audio and you do it consistently you know people build a relationship with the show with me you know with the types of conversations

we have and there's no there's nothing to really own. It's a pretty beautiful moment in media right now that if you can find your niche or you can find your area and hold your audience, you can kind of run your own ship. I mean, there's no gates to close. You know what I mean? No one's going to come down and like... But I've just watched every comedian for the last 30 years

fight for Johnny Carson's slot, fight for this, fight for Letterman, fight for all that shit. And all it does is it just gets more and more watered down until it's unwatchable. I don't, it becomes sort of the- And these are funny people, Mark. You know that. Well, that's because they're all sort of, it's a context. And they think that's the, they got to honor that context. And no one even gives a fuck about it anymore.

You know what I mean? It's like, I don't know who watches it. Well, they pay a lot for it. Yeah, but I mean, even that's starting to slow down a little bit. I mean, you know, some people believe that TV is going to remain vital. I'm going to tell you why Celebrity Rehab exists.

You want to know? Because of Jay Leno. All right. I was, you know, I've been an advocate for drug addicts. I'm a drug addict. I love drug addicts. I love the whole process of using and sobriety and how you get there.

It's my life. Yeah. As important to me as who played bass on Walking the Wild Side, which was my obsession in my younger life. Who played bass on Walking the Wild Side? Herbie Flowers. Okay. Do you know that?

Want me to name all five members of Angel? This is what Becky is so impressed by. Oh, he loves this shit. He loves Angel. You know that band, The White Kiss? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's Barry Brant was the drummer. Frank D'Amino was the singer.

Punky Meadows was the guitar player. Remember that? Do you remember Punky Meadows? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Greg Giafria, the only one that went on to have a career, Giafria, the heavy metal band, and the bass player was Mick Jones, the thirdria, the heavy metal band, and the bass player was Mick Jones, the third Mick Jones.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? So as obsessed as I was about music, I became obsessed about addiction and drug addicts and how they get better. That's where you nerd out. Yeah. I just became obsessed with it. So I really hold it in high, high regard, sobriety, how people find it, the storytelling of it.

So every night about eight, nine years ago, the punchline on Letterman, on Leno, on everything, was these two little girls that were obviously, one was mentally ill and drug dependent, and one was just a straight- drug addict yeah little girls 19 and 17 years old lindsey lohan and britney spears yeah and i was watching leno one night and the punchline again was lindsey lohan yeah you know yeah and i just got so fucking pissed and i went into work the next day and i said drew you know you know what? America's so stupid, it doesn't believe anything

it doesn't see on television. We need to humanize addicts on television. We need to have a TV show that shows them how painful the process is, how haunted they are and what it is that we do. So we should just have cameras here and let a bunch of people get free treatment and have a TV show.

And that's what led to Celebrity Rehab. I didn't want it to be celebrities. Spite. I wanted the humanness of addicts that we all know. Well, yeah, because when I used to watch Intervention, I'd just be bawling. Because as somebody in recovery, you sort of get that thing like, I don't know if he's going to make it, that guy. No, he's probably not going to make it. You know what I mean? How about that's how about the girl remember the

girl the huffer girl i love that episode and she would put two things of huffer in her mouth at walmart and shoot him and then she'd go i'm walking on sunshine i don't remember she got sober she did yeah i just loved her i remember watching it and I was single at the time. I said, I would marry that girl. Because I'm codependent too, right? Yeah, I just learned about my codependency pretty recently. Oh, really? It's a hard one to fucking hit bottom with. So, all right.

So you're listening to the music. You're being a DJ. And what happens? You meet Flea and you meet Anthony. I met Flea and Anthony and I saw a band called The Replacements. No, but I saw a band called The Replacements. In that year in Haiti? On the Hootenanny Tour in 83. Oh, shit.

That was a mess, huh? Yeah, it was a train wreck. And I thought, see, because Anthony and Flea already had a band. It was called Tony Flo and the Majestic Mayhems of Funk or something. Masters of Mayhem or something. So Flea always liked that. Yeah, he's been a genius since the day he was born with music so they had this thing where anthony rapped and the a band called what is this which was flea halal and jack irons played behind anthony rapping yeah and so and they

were all like cool great musicians and anthony super handsome and cool yeah and so it was just like well people like me don't play music. But then when I saw The Replacements, I was like, hey, hey, hey, people like me play music. Yeah. Right?

And they played more of the kind of music you like. Yeah. And so that was very inspiring. I went home that night and I called a bunch of friends. I said, well, I want to form a band.

And slowly, you know, Thelonious Monster was born out of seeing The Replacements. And when did the dope start? I was scared of dope. I did it one time jimmy and then i was scared of it you shot it yeah yeah first time i was like 19 1980 yeah and i was just scared of it and i stayed clear of it and then anthony and flea and i were really into coke yeah right and we didn't come down yeah we came down two or three days later we eat watermelon yeah because i i thought

watermelon is like saline solution yeah yeah it'll purify you the weird yeah the weird hangover cures yeah watermelon yeah sure and sleeping and listening to graham parsons grievous angel that was our process well that's a hard come down a little bit we play cribbage me and anthony play cribbage we'd eat watermelon listen to gra Parsons. That's how we came down. You guys have been up for a few days. Make note of that system and then get to a meeting. And then slowly, about 85, 86 is where dope starts coming. I had a girlfriend that did dope.

And I was like, I always steered clear of it. And that was around the first album? Yeah, when our first album came out is when I always stood clear of it. And that was around the first album? Yeah, when our first album came out is when I had just started doing it. In 85, we made it. And so, you know, and it was just like a weekend, you know, warrior type thing.

I didn't do it all the time. Mostly drinking was my primary problem, always has been, really. And the first record, like, has been really and the first record like unlike um the which was the first one baby you're bumming my life out in a supreme fashion and yeah so that record was a little all over the place stylistically right yeah it was we were trying to be lounge lizards but we weren't good enough so it came out this hybrid hodgepodge of blues and... Little funk? Yeah, wannabe, I don't know what. And so slowly, because our live show was pretty dangerous

because I was kind of obsessed with Darby Crash. Oh, you were? The whole thing, yeah. But you didn't like punk, but you were obsessed with him. I liked him. I liked his lyrics. Were you able to see him? No, I saw the Darby Crash band, but not the germs like right before he yeah right before he died a couple

weeks couple months before yeah so you liked his performance yeah i just liked his whole loose yeah floppy yeah a little spontaneously aggressive morrison it was more like jim morrison than what is like anything else well he's definitely in his own time zone. Yeah, he's definitely... Yeah, and he couldn't sing and he couldn't really keep time. But you can sing. I learned how to sing.

You know, I sang in choir in Catholic school. And you listened to David Bowie. Yeah. That's all you need. That's all you need. Elvis Costello. People ask me all the time, how do you really learn how to sing?

And I say, get like the first four Elvis Costello records and play them in your car and sing along. And eventually you'll know how it works. Imperial Bedroom. Imperial Bedroom is unbelievable. Yeah, he's a hell of a singer. So then you do, I guess most people know you for Beautiful Mess. Yeah.

That was the big record. There's a Tom Waits song on there. Is that on that one? Yeah. Yeah, but how'd you know weights because that's weights and what is that and that's 92 so that what that's what where's weights at in his journey he's making he's about to make bone machine because he called me i became acquaintance with him or friends with i don't know why he i saw him at keith richard show so

it's right after heart attack and vine when everything breaks apart no he had made rain dogs oh he did rain yeah okay and so and he had done um right right and then he was like trying to reinvent it you know that's when it really got weird right i thought rain dogs was weird and swordfish trombone was weird wait till you hear bone machine so he calls me one day and i just i pick up a landline and i go, hello? And he goes, bone machine. And I was like, Tom? And he goes, bone machine. And I was like, what? What's going on?

And he goes, what's the first thing that comes to your mind? And I was like, because you always want to answer right for Tom Waits. I was like, I don't know, like a car made out of bones? And he goes, oh, shit. And then Kathleen was there, his wife, and she said, what did he say? And I heard her say that. And I was like, I knew I said the wrong answer. He thinks a bone machine is the human body.

It's a bone machine. You know, I just tried to answer it right. It was like his version of Meat Puppet. I got the sense that he wanted to call the album Bone Machine and she did not. Wow. Let's call Bob. They were calling

a cross section of their acquaintances to see what the reaction was. I guess they got enough of the percentage for Kathleen to lose that one. He was over at my house here in Mount Washington one time and I had bought that record that he got ripped off so bad by that company. He got ripped off by so bad by that company you

know he got ripped off really bad early on in his career and island released or not island uh asylum released some greatest hits thing yeah and i had just bought it and it was in my house and he came in he goes what's this and i said that it's got mar on it and everything. And he opened my front door and threw it out the front door. So he came into my life for like a year and a half, two years. And then he just disappeared to Roseville. So no more? But I went up there and recorded with him. Recently?

No, just that song. Are you guys still friends? Yeah. I mean, I see him. He's very reclusive. I know. I know. I'd love to talk to him, but he don't come out much.

He won't do it? Well, I don't know. I don't even know how to get in you know he does like one guy i know he doesn't have a manager he doesn't he does like one interview a year you gotta go up there maybe i'll go up there take this shit up there i take shit up there i got a rig he meets you at a truck stop i travel with this there you go i was a huge weights fan best. In high school, that's another guy I didn't mention. In that box of records I told you about was Nighthawks at the Diner. Oh, my God. And I was like, holy fuck, what is this? Big Joe and Phantom 3.

Yeah, and I used to wear that hat like he had on the cover. I'd wear shirts like his. I dressed like Weights. Probably my sophomore year of high school. There you go, man. Yeah. He was my guy for a while. I just saw, how can he be this fucking funny and this fucking cool and playing this old style music you know it was great it's amazing it was amazing so i

was peeing next to him at the keith richard show at the palladium and i looked over and i was kind of drunk and i said oh my god tom waits and he goes oh my god bob forrest and i go how the do you know who i am and i almost peed on him and i was like I almost fainted and he goes I go see Thelonious all the time and then we're in the bathroom there and I was like what I would hear that if you were at our show right and he goes let me tell you something you know but you and I was at a show with other couple months ago and you and the drummer just went at it physically physical you decked him and he knocked you over and then you just walked back to your places and continued on is that real hostility or is that some sort of stage thing

and i said no i fucking hate him and he goes that's what i thought and that's when you met tom wayne that's what he did it was so cool like having him in my life he called me one time he said you want to go to the Wiltern and see this bald chick? And I was like, what? It was Sinead O'Connor. All right, so now you're doing dope. Your first record's out. You're finding your groove.

Because by the time Beautiful Mess comes out, you definitely have a style. It's not punk rock. It's sort of like pop Americana, but good, right? Trying. Yeah. So when did you get strung out bad? Bad was a little before Beautiful Mess. I got this solo deal with RCA.

Yeah. And they gave me, back in the day, they used to give you a lot of money when they thought you could be a star. Even the sweating guy. Give the sweating guy a couple hundred thousand dollars. It was crazy. The guy with no pupils.

Let's give him some money. I literally went from like, you know, living in this one bedroom house on Fountain to like living in the Hollywood Hills and doing whatever the fuck I wanted. And it was crazy. On a record deal. That's bad. Yeah. That's a bad deal.

And that was the deal for Beautiful Mess? No. Well, no. It was for the solo deal that never came out. I made the most horrible record ever made. Do you have the tapes? Yes, I do. How are they? My they my mom has my sister mom yeah i sometimes listen to him when i'm in oklahoma just that's where she is yeah she's in the witness protection program that's a whole

another story really yeah she went there she married a coke dealer and then he turns evidence against the banana family and they had to get out and is she still married to him? No, they divorced, but she stayed out there. She likes it out there. She's got to stay in the program? Huh? She's got to stay in the witness protection program? No, no. It was just to get away and lay low. Yeah. But that's why she went out there 20 years ago. Oh my God. And she stays out there.

She was born in LA. What happened to the dude? Did they hit him? He's still around. Terry, he's a good guy. He's married to somebody else, has a bunch of kids. Ah, but so the curse is off him though yeah it's off him wow yeah holy shit all right so you make a shitty solo album you're all fucked up on heroin and you're living up that's when i go to my first rehab because the girl i was dating's dad was sober and he was like what's that 87 88 87 yeah yeah and um and so i went to hazelden i remember they did this kind of intervention on me but i knew it was coming because i'd been working on album for a

year and i had nothing and so um you know i went to this restaurant citrus when i went to my first rehab i went to hazelden i didn't but they said they wanted me to go this one in la and i said i'm not going to one in la i'll just leave i know myself and i said listen i read in the national inquirer that elizabeth taylor went to some rehab in minnesota i want to go to that one that's how i chose my first rehab the national inquirer yeah because i was so much like liz sure maybe you could hang out maybe she'd come up there so but that was a great experience that's when rehab really worked right really i knew when i walked out of hazelden 33 days later i knew what the problem was i knew that i had it yep i knew

it was a disease yeah i knew what to do about it i just didn't want to do anything about it about eight months yeah yeah what pulled you back? I'm an atheist, so it was kind of hard. I'd go to meetings every day. But you got hung up on it. You got hung up on the God thing. I got hung up on the God thing. Yeah.

That's so much the mental ticket out for guys who get it. I get it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so nowadays, regardless of what people believe, we're all doing the same thing. Yeah. So just keep doing the same thing. I have a two-step program if you'd like to join it, Mark. Sure.

What is it? Be cool and don't use. Be cool is a big tent thing. There's a lot of things to be cool. Try to hit a meeting occasionally. Check in. That's being cool. Yeah.

Helping out. Driving people to meetings to pick them up a rehab the god thing like there's some some some guy said something to meeting once that that just sort of works for me is that like god doesn't wake up and think he's you all right that's a good one that's enough you haven't heard that one how often do you hear one you haven't heard after how long it's over now 19 years. Holy fuck. All right, so you get sober the first time, but you were able to, what, you were in and out? I knew that it was the solution.

Yeah. I just wasn't, you know, I met a great counselor. Her name was Gloria Scott years later in her rehab. And I said, why is it so hard for me just to catch on to these simple shit? And she goes, I have a theory. To the degree of your arrogance will be the degree of your suffering. Pride. Yeah.

Yeah. So I was a pretty arrogant, frightened child. That's pretty good. That's a good one. Pride's a fucking bitch. I was scared of what it is. And I also thought sobriety was going to be boring. You know, that's what a lot of young people think these days.

It turns out it's fucking insane. It's really hard to go through a month, a year. If you think in terms of what using is. Yeah. I talked to a guy. It was interesting. It was an interesting moment. I've tried to explain it a couple times, but it doesn't quite resonate.

I know a guy's on medicine and he's on you know like bipolar medication they gave him some clonopens to self-medicate when shit got out of hand in case the lamictal wasn't working yeah so uh you know and and i basically the prescription was is like you know when you need to you know feel better you know take one of these if you're going you know either way i need to feel better all the time that's what he said he said you take one it's like of course this feels better it feels better it's gonna feel better always yeah here's my thing is when when when lenny bruce was doing dope there was probably one tenth of one percent of the population was doing dope yeah right nowadays a third of the population is doing dope something you know it know, it's not outlaw.

It's not outside the norm. It's mainstream. Your mom or your grandma are on drugs. Addictive, deadly, destructive drugs. They may be coming from Walgreens instead of Chewy, but they're the same thing. So when you roadied first for the Chewy Pepper? Yeah, yeah.

And they were just your buddies and you just hang out? started as the manager then i became the road manager then i became the roadie then i was fired completely by my by my best friends yeah and you guys are all still friends yeah yeah talk to everybody sober yeah that's fucking it's weird right it's amazing it's a it's you know and the funny thing is we used to talk about a lot and talk about it less now and gone round and round about it, whether it helps or hinders. One of the things I think was 16 and 19, I think that discourages,

I don't think it discourages people to think they could be sober and live a happy, fun life, not on drugs. Yeah. You know, lots been made about my sobriety it's just like the first seven eight years felt so purposeful and i felt so connected to new people and whatever and as

as the years have rolled on i just feel i try to be there and present with them but it's it's so it's a big distance i don't know like lately i guess we can just talk freely i about it it's a big distance. I don't know. Lately, I guess we can just talk freely about it. It's like I get to a point where I get pretty dry. And I can see it and I can feel it. No matter how many good things are going on. There's that weird thing. I just become relatively successful in the last few years. And I'm still uncomfortable.

And I still get angry. And I still have very little patience. So my gratitude situation is not in good place. And then I get, I get that weird, dry, aggravated, why don't I have something? And then like, I'll go to a meeting and I'll talk to a new guy. Like I just started talking to a new guy and I'm like, holy shit, I know how this works. And it feels pretty good to tell someone else, you know, how, how I did it or, or you know to be to be helpful be present with them that's what i like when somebody's really when when i really connect with somebody yeah and and it's it's a couple years process really yeah you really like become this closeness right you know

it's not every sponsee but it's once in a while it's pretty magical. I always say there's three states of being in relation to AA. You're entering into it. You're fully engaged in it. Or you're leaving it. What's great about it is if a new person asks somebody who's leaving and they really connect, they both immediately become fully engaged in it. That, to me, is the thing that saved me time and time again. Then that lays the foundation. Here's the thing that saved me time and time again then that

lays the foundation here's the weird thing is that i always tell these guys it's like just fucking make it your own don't get hung up on who's doing it right or whether you're doing it right or which guys like shoving what down your throat and how to do it and when to do it you're speaking my language buddy well yeah because i was always the aggravated guy at every year at every juncture to this day i'm'm not, I'm not comfortable. I'm not, you know, I'm grateful to be sober and I don't want to live any other way. And I, you know, my first, the woman who brought me in used to say this thing where she'd be like, the only step you have to work perfectly is the first one.

And I believe that. And I believe meetings will keep you sober. But I also know that like, I can't play this thing by the rules. I got, you know, I understand what, what, how to make these steps my own and also how to integrate them into my life so I can own them. You got to own that shit. Do you want to get really technical about it? There's a sentence in the book that says, this is a design for living, a bridge back to the real world. That suggests that AA is not the real world.

That we're supposed to go out and practice this shit yeah with the people down the street here right with you know them you know what i'm saying but that's that's like the old buddhist saying easy to be spiritual on a mountaintop hard down in the village right right right that's where my yeah and also i get very defensive when these articles start coming out about why a is a cult or why it's like, no, it's not. But yeah, but no one's making any money. It's a cult.

It is a cult. It's a benign cult. Nobody's in charge of it. Doesn't make any money. I had a guy say this. Yeah, exactly. But,

but the thing is, is like, don't fucking tear it down. If you offer nothing in return, don't go, you know, if you don't have the bug and it's not for you, go,

well then fuck off. Yeah. I think that AA used to be much more welcoming of other things. A lot of my friends have gotten sober lots of different ways. Stay sober? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Those gifted people that just are like, no, no. One of my friends I worked with went back to the Catholic church and became like a devout Catholic.

And he's a concierge or whatever it's called. It's not a priest, but it's something. And he's all into that. Like, fine. he doesn't shoot dope anymore good for him i you know some guy used to tell this story about how he told his sponsor early in sobriety it's like yeah i don't want to fucking get brainwashed and his father said your brain needs washing gloria scott said that to me same woman that said to the degree of your arrogance there used to be that's the other thing There used to be, that's the other thing. There used to be champions of storytelling. Yeah. You know what I mean?

Yeah. I one time drank a six pack of beer in the AME and see what happened. You know what happened? Nothing. No, they're just like, that guy. Then I'm walking out as a third and gardener at the old original one. I'm walking out. About a hundred people said, keep coming back, Bob.

You thought you'd start some shit? I wanted to get thrown out so bad they absorb everything and then in the showboats you know who have a new way or a different way there was a while there in New York and San Francisco where there was this subgroup coming around called the transmitters and they would sit there and they would inventory constantly it was like a an inventory no like exhausting yeah every five minutes became tired every five minutes they were inventorying and they thought this was, they were going to do a branch off group. And people were kind of panicky at first.

And it's just like, it's like democracy in a way. It's like, they'll go away. Just come and go. Yeah. Yeah. They'll filter out. But okay. So when did you get sober for real and how did Beautiful Mess, what was the thing that

leveled your career in the band? Well, the band ended. They got tired of me. But did your record company fuck you? No, no, no. It was all good. We were actually doing the best we had done when we kind of broke up. It was in Europe and I had ruined this big tour.

Because you were fucked up? Yeah, really fucked up. Was that where there's stuff on YouTube? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, that's one show, but it was just a... One time I didn't even go to our show. I went and saw Guns N' Roses at another place, and I forgot that we were playing.

Did you shoot up right before you went on? No, I mostly smoked crack. I was always pretty high from heroin, so I needed something to pick me up. Yeah. And I'd play, and then I'd drink while I played, and then I'd do dope when I got back to the hotel oh yeah to come down from everything constant self-medicating but it's interesting like it because i have to assume that some like i watch some of this stuff and it

seems to me that that you must have informed cobain a little bit just singing stylistically and and there it felt that did you does anyone say that yeah but you know i feel sad because we were a generation that was very positive about celebrating you know yeah debauchery right and then i think the casualties came in that next generation which were kurt and shannon hoon and brad noel from sublime i think they looked up to us they were like five i think they're like five or seven years younger than us we're already bands that had records right when i say we i'm looking at anthony perry me yeah we were pretty pretty obviously drug addicts he's great he's like mr husband oh yeah we see him with his wife and kids like it's really weird he and i were at the uh

what was it called the tony hawk foundation luncheon the other day with our kids and like it's just so weird yeah well yeah i mean you're lucky you got older you had kids late right yeah well i have a five-year-old and a 28-year-old where'd the 28-year-old come from from you know that era oh yeah from a woman's vagina yeah that's how it happened yeah but uh you know and i tried to be a dad and wasn't very good at it and then when i i got sober he was eight and he moved in with me and we got a good relationship yeah he lives in baltimore yeah he wanted to get out of la oh that's smart it was weird he's a musician and all of us tried to help me, and he didn't want our help.

Is he still? Still a musician? Oh, yeah. He makes a lot of records. Kids nowadays, they make records every six months. What's his band? It's called The Terrors. Well, he doesn't like you to say the,

because here's an interesting thing. So we always say the terrors, but it's just terrors. So Anthony talks about him in Rolling Stone magazine. I say, do you see Anthony talks about him in rolling stone magazine i say i say do you see anthony talks about you in rolling stone he's like i don't know he was talking about he was talking about the terrors i don't know who that is i was like you are such a prick tell your friend to get it right dad so after a beautiful mess and everything what you've just you did a couple solo albums and mostly focused on sobriety? Yeah, I just started working. I made the Bicycle Thief record and I toured that and it just kind of ran its course.

And then I thought, I'm like 40 years old, what the fuck am I going to do with, hopefully I'll live 30 more years. There wasn't a lot of roadmaps of musicians, like, what do you do? Do you go back to school? Were you bitter? No, no, I was pretty content. The Bicycle Th thief did pretty well and so i was financially sound and i was just like wondering but wondering what the fuck am i gonna do am i just gonna go to tropical and wear rock and roll t-shirts and like be 50 years old be the legendary sober guy yeah and so anthony said why don't you

go down volunteer at map and so that's what i, and that's how I got into the racket. There was this thing called Musician's Assistance Program, and it was just the greatest thing. It paid for hundreds and thousands of musicians to go to treatment, and it was this brother and sisterhood, and it just was a magnificent thing. It became Music Cares, which is kind of a corporate kind of thing. And your relationship with Drew started how he?

I took some of my clients I started working at this place the first fundraising and then and then running groups And I really liked it and I went they needed extras for this Bill Nye the science guy It's a show about addiction and drew was the host of it and I had known him from the 80s being on the radio Yeah, and he kept looking at me and then afterwards he said what's your name and I said Bob it's Bob Forrest dude from Filoni's Monster and he's like I heard that you died and I go well I certainly did not and he said do you need to come and work with me so then about a year later when map dissolved into music yeah I went and worked with him and history is made well you know i learned a lot

from that i mean he helped me grow up a lot yeah if it wasn't for him and this other doctor dr blum they used to they gave me a dictionary yeah and uh said there are other words in the english language than fuck uh-huh and so they challenged me you know and they mentored me and I kind of. But you got out without the HEP? I got the HEP. Oh, you do? Yeah. You know, I've been in remission or like low viral count, so I don't qualify for the medicine. Oh.

Yeah. But because I got a medicine that gets it. Yeah, a thousand bucks a pill if you want it cash. You got to get a cover of your insurance. Now I heard Blue Cross PPO doesn't have the same criteria as mine. Yeah. So I might switch when the next Obamacare thing comes around.

Yeah, yeah. Just in case. But I'll switch to Blue Cross PPO and they'll say, we don't pay for that anymore if you're healthy and whatever. So you've been all right with it? I've been all right.

When I go in to get sonograms or viral counts, they just like, they can't believe how low it is huh you know i've been sober a long time i try to eat right i don't smoke yeah you know but eventually it'll catch up with you yeah you know i just couldn't do the interferon i was so yeah not so many guys out well knocked my friend harold out and then it didn't cure him and i thought fuck he got six months of that shit and then it doesn't work yeah Yeah. Now this new drug is so magical, but it costs so much.

Right. Well, maybe eventually it'll lower a little bit. Yeah, it's got to. So do you have your own rehab center? Yeah, I got this place out in Malibu called Acadia. It's all insurance-driven, but I used to own it and I kind of sold it to my partners. I'm trying to play music.

Well, yeah, well, this new record, it's good. You want to play some? Yeah, this new record it's good you want to play some yeah i'll play all right okay what are you gonna play that's the album i figured i thought it's gonna play two songs play the first song the last song what about the cereal song do you play that you want to play that Well, hell will, oh, hell will And cocaine, and cocaine Well, I love them both, yeah But they took my life

They took my friends They won't give them back Well, I want them back Give them back now, yeah And what has it got me? Give them back now, yeah. And what has it gotten me? Just some teeth that can't chew my favorite cereal with. Oh, being cool and looking good. Keith Richards and Lenny Bruce And all of them

Will I give up now? But sometimes I get sad Or I'll get mad About where I should be now And where I am And I want to go back to them But what has it gotten me? Just some teeth I can't chew

My favorite cereal with Yeah, where has it gotten me? Thirty-five years old now Wash dishes in a restaurant Well, my friend Robert Well he can't stop And his teeth are falling out He's living at his mom's

And it's no fun I guess it's lucky I'm alive They say it's lucky I'm alive Cause I should be dead lucky I'm alive. They say it's lucky I'm alive. Cause I should be dead. Well, I have been dead, but I'm not no more. And what did it get me? Just some teeth I can't chew. My favorite cereal whip.

Yeah, when have got me 35 years old now Watched this in a restaurant I love that one. That'll work. Yeah, sounds great. Oh, thanks. That was fun.

What other one do you do? I've been trying to do them all. I play, you know, but the one I really like is, you know, people always ask you, don't they ask you, like, what have you learned from being sober all this time? Yeah, yeah. And all this, what's the wisdom? I'm like, fuck, I'm just barely getting through the day today. Don't have any real, don't use. Be cool. You got a song?

Yeah, I wrote it. So it's like when I was in my best state of like thinking I knew something. There'll be peace in the valley. When there's peace in my heart. But the road gets so winding That you just get lost My friends, let me tell you As dumb as it sounds Well, kindness is everything

And love is all there is. Well, kindness is everything and love is all there is. True chaos and beauty. True chaos and beauty. Religion and philosophies can teach you to hate. But the sun's coming up again Another baby gets born Kindness is everything And love is all there is

Well, kindness is everything Love is all there is. True chaos and beauty. True chaos and beauty. There'll be peace in the valley When there's peace in my heart But the road gets so winding That you just get lost

Remember kindness is everything And love is all there is Well, kindness is everything And love is all there is Get some water. That sounded great, man. It's crackly, but it's alright. It's alright.

What do you want to do? Are you good? Yeah, I'm good. Thanks for having me. Yeah, man. It was great to see you. I'm glad you're doing well. Yeah. I love the record. Glad to be here. Do we cover it all? Oh, yeah, I think so. You know, I, yeah. So podcasts, right? They say, well, yeah, that was good. And then we'll tighten it up. Where does tightening it up come from? It's got to be a sexual term. Well, it used to mean, I think getting tight meant getting high at some point.

But tighten it up means, you know, just. Because I think Archie Bell and the Drells do the tighten up. Tighten up, y'all. I guess it's been used a lot of different ways, but I think it just means we'll tighten it up. All right, man.'ll tighten it up all right man tighten it up i hope that was exciting and interesting and inspiring and again don't be afraid to ask for help there's help out there save your life if it needs to be saved and have the will to at least pick up a phone or go get some

help if you need help for whatever it is all right there's no shame in it merry christmas i love you all most of you some of you i don't some of you i tolerate but that's you know that's that's mature tolerance is a mature and decent thing to do now i love y'all right now it's fading though now i'll stick in i'll stay in happy holidays boomer lives We'll be right back. You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get an ice rink on Uber Eats. But iced tea and ice cream? Yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats. Get almost, almost anything.

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