WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 667 - Neil Strauss

Episode Date: December 28, 2015

Author and journalist Neil Strauss became the story after he wrote the enormously popular and controversial book, The Game. He got so deep into the world of pick-up artists and the seduction community, he struggled to find the truth about his own identity and personal relationships. Neil and Marc sit down in the garage to talk about what Neil learned from the experience. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category.

And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talked to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Lock the gate! All right, let's do this.

How are you? What the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fucking ears? What the fucksters? What the fuckadelics? What the fuck is happening? How are you?

This is Mark Maron. This is my show. This is WTF, the podcast. I'm broadcasting today from a snowed-in room in Albuquerque, New Mexico. It's not, I do not think that it's any similar. I don't think it's similar at all to The Hateful Eight, which I have not seen yet. But apparently there's a situation where there are several characters snowed in and it gets a little rough. That's all I know about that movie.

There's a weather situation and then shit hits the fan in many different bloody ways. I am going to see the film, but this does not seem to be happening. What do we got going on? Let's just try to stay in the moment here. I have Neil Strauss on the show today. Now, Neil Strauss wrote a book that caused a little trouble for some people, but I think some people got a lot out of it. It was a relatively controversial book a few years ago called The Game.

It was an investigative piece that began as an investigative piece. He went into the world of pickup artists, the secret societies of these men who have an angle and a system. And basically, I guess the idea is to have sex with the women. Now, there was a lot of wrong about this whole idea, and there was a lot of flack. But it kind of took Neil in a direction he didn't really anticipate and moved him through a world and through a series of behaviors that he is not necessarily proud of. Now, you have to understand, I met Neil when he was this very quiet, nebbishy Jewish writer hanging around the alternative comedy scene back in the early 90s or mid 90s and when

i heard he written that book i was like holy is that the same fucking guy how is that the same guy that what the what did he be how did that guy come on so now he's written a new book called the uh the truth which is basically believe, his recovery from the game. That whatever he went through emotionally and sexually and personality-wise through getting sucked into the game, it has hit the wall. And now he has this new book called The Truth, an uncomfortable book about relationships. And I have a very candid, intense, loaded conversation with Neil, who knows some things about me in the past, and has his experience of what I was like back. And they interviewed me, actually, for a piece

he was writing back in the mid-90s but also just sort of moving through what he learned about relationships and himself in the process of uh of writing this newest book i was very excited to talk to him and it was a very intense conversation so look forward to that coming around the bend here so i've been in albuquerque my hometown for a couple of days as some of you know i was up up in Santa Fe enjoying the spa relaxation life. And then we come down to Albuquerque. Now, as some of you know, I grew up here, born in New Jersey, moved to Alaska, Albuquerque, 71, 72, started here in third grade. My life began in Albuquerque, New Mexico. So I chose to do something that I don't usually do. I mean, I see a couple of the people

I know from when I grew up, Dave Kleinfeld, Devin Jackson, a couple people, Sam Howarth. I see some friends that I've kept in contact with for the last 40 years, 35 years. But I never really did the, let's go look at the elementary school. Let's go look at the first house I lived in when we moved here. Let's go do that. Let me drag my girlfriend through some sort of this is your life episode where I sit in front of structures and try to connect emotionally and memory-wise with my past.

And what I sort of learned was i learned something about myself what memories do you have as a person because those will sort of dictate or at least should be a window in how your brain works are the memories that you hold on to the shitty ones or are they the like wow that was the best time of my life or i remember that one time where i lost my finger you know like what kind of person are you are you like i remember that one time that my you know the car almost or are you the person sort of like oh that was the best thing that ever happened to me as you can imagine i tend towards the finger loss type of uh memories but not not so much they still reveal things you know i mean i went we i went to my elementary school

where i went from third to fifth grade and uh and then moved to a private institution um the groovy hipster sort of hippie private school for fifth and sixth grade but i remember third and fourth grade but there's weird memories that happen i'm just sitting there i'm looking at this playground where i sort of wandered i walked walked down the street. It was right at the end of my block, Mark Twain Elementary. But I remember walking down to school and the memories that sort of flooded back, there was a couple. One of them was I remember spending time during recess and helping the special needs kids. I just remember doing that. And I remember there was this very profound moment where a severely mentally challenged guy who I was playing football with, you know, tackled me with a force

and energy that was astounding and made me cry. But he couldn't have been more excited about it. It's just, I don't know what I learned in that moment, but it was something about being a person and the sort of differences in minds. But I kept working with them, and I'd go over there and play with them and get them laughing. So that was sort of one of my first gigs as an entertainer and decent person was helping the intellectually and mentally challenged have a fun recess. I remember that. I remember breaking my leg because my dad adjusted my bindings too tight and having a full leg cast and not being able to go to lunch. And my girlfriend in fourth grade, Elizabeth,

used to come and eat lunch with me alone in the room. That's sort of a nice memory. It'd be nicer without the broken leg, but whatever. I remember I had a Roadrunner lunchbox, which I thought was stupid. And one day, and all the other kids had better lunchboxes. I don't even know what kind I really wanted, but I remember I kicked it all the way home until it just broke and the lid broke off. And I told my mother, I told my mother, the big kids got me. The big kids did this to my Roadrunner lunchbox. That was their sole focus. She didn't buy it, and I ended up never having another lunchbox, just brown bagging it. So those

were the lessons in elementary school. Pretty exciting stuff, right, folks? Right? And then we went to my old house. Very few memories in the old house. I have some trying to mow the lawn, but I didn't understand how to mow a lawn that you had to do it in lines. I just kind of randomly mowed the lawn around in a circle until my neighbor Gary said you got to mow the lawn, but I didn't understand how to mow lawn that you had to do it in lines. I just kind of randomly mowed the lawn around in a circle until my neighbor Gary said you got to mow it in lines. That was a big lesson. I remember old English sheepdogs. I remember a Janis Joplin record, a Melanie record, a James Taylor record. I remember telling the Latino maid that my cleaning lady that my parents had hired, who did not speak any English,

that she was using the wrong detergent in the dishwasher and she needed to use dish soap. And then we had a kitchen full of about a foot of foam and bubbles. And that was not a good day for her or me, but I copped to it. I guess the bottom line is, it's good to be home. It's good to see a couple of old friends.

I feel very comfortable here, but sometimes when I come out here with people, I don't always know, like it's overly emotional. There's no way you're not gonna get a little tweaked out revisiting your childhood and wondering and then seeing people that you knew back then now who are your friends since second grade third grade and now we're 52 53 years old it's hard there's there's a there's a there's a weird beauty to it but there's also a little bit of uh of heartbreak to

it like hey we're still alive we're doing okay but but man, if I don't see you for a couple years, one of us might be using a cane. I don't know, man. It's a little heavy, but I guess this is what life is. Season three of Marin premieres on Netflix today. Today, if today is the 28th, this is the day you can watch season three of my ifc show marin on netflix it's a good season it's very exciting it'll set you up for the season we're about to do

it gets pretty heavy at the end enjoy it watch it it's your time to do that all right so right now let's go to my conversation with neil strauss his book the truth an uncomfortable book about relationships is available now and this is uh this is an intense conversation so i hope you did hi it's terry o'reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed,

how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Calgary is a city built by innovators.

Innovation is in the city's DNA. And it's with this pedigree that bright minds and future-thinking problem solvers are tackling some of the world's greatest challenges from right here in Calgary. From cleaner energy, safe and secure food, efficient movement of goods and people, and better health solutions, Calgary's visionaries are turning heads around the globe, across all sectors, each and every day. Calgary's on the right path forward. Take a closer look how at calgaryeconomicdevelopment.com. Like, I don't think I've seen you in 20 years. I was on your Air America show.

Right. Maybe that was 10 years ago but it's kind of like you weren't really there you didn't really have a conversation it was so early in the morning too early in the morning i don't know if you were where you were at doing it did you come in live or were you on the phone no i came in live so like it was that morning show at air america like you like it's between six and nine you came in yeah but we already had more connection here in 20 seconds than we did there oh well it was crazy crazy there, dude. Yeah, it was crazy. You're in real time.

You're half awake. Right. Like, I remember you hanging around Luna Lounge when you were writing for what, Spin? New York Times. New York Times. Oh, did you write that piece about alternative comics in the Times? That was the piece that Lorne Michaels had read. Oh, no way.

It all comes back to Lorne Michaels. Yeah. Yeah. Well, no, that was the piece where, you know, I think he had read because he way oh it all comes back to lauren michaels yeah yeah well no that was the piece where you know i think he had read because he said i don't know what you think you're doing down there below 14th street but it doesn't mean but that was that piece there was a picture of me ross broccoli and jeff ross that's it that's it in the piece yeah and that was the big uh you know that was putting it on the map yeah alt comedy was on the map because of neil strauss and i remember i

came to the thing you're like this is the guy who ruined the scene you singled me out i did yeah you came to the show after that yeah but i remember we talked and i remember talking to you and i and you were kind of like you were you know you barely could talk for some you know sort of like so true i was incredible just so nervous yeah You were very nervous. And, um, and then like, I remember what was the first big ghost writing job you had?

Was it Manson? Yeah. Marilyn Manson. So then I heard like, you know, like, uh, you know,

Neil Strauss co-wrote this, this huge book, Marilyn Manson. I'm like that fucking guy, that guy can't even talk. I think that, I think it was disarming. They had nothing to fear from me.

It was very disarming. Maybe. What is that process of ghostwriting? How does that work? Oh, it's the best. You just hang out in their world as much as you can. Yeah. And absorb as much of their life as you can.

And then when they're ready, you talk. So sometimes, after a show, Manson would be doing a bunch of kind of, he'd want to do a bunch of coke and then talk all night and record them all night. Right. Or other times, you just sort of embedded yourself in your world and waited for those moments and observed the moment. So, for example, he'd have his bodyguard guard the bathroom door while he did coke in the bathroom.

So you'd watch that and that would become a little detail that would inform the story. And did he let you put all that in? Yeah. I wouldn't write a book with someone if they had anything to hold back. Oh, really? Yeah, that's the rule. But you don't get final edit. You just get an agreement.

Yeah, you get an agreement, but I make some agreements up front. I say if you're going to take anything out, you have to put something better back in. That's a little broad, but it usually works? It usually works. And also, I try to write it well enough that even if they're resistant when they tell me, they read it and they're like, oh, this has to stay. And you were factual. Yeah, always.

Yeah. The only thing you change is stuff for legal reasons. And you'll change someone's name or their details. Right, right. So you had to sit there and watch Marilyn Manson do coke a lot. A lot of coke. And indulge that. Right.

And home movies. It was fun because as a journalist, people only show you exactly what they want to show you because they know you're writing. Right, right, right. But when they know they have the approval, they show you everything. So it was seeing another side of yourself. Sure, and when they're on Coke, you get more than you hoped for. You get more than you hoped.

Some nights, it's really weird. Rock stars are so, here's the crazy thing. Like you might call to do an interview and everybody seems so busy. Yeah, yeah. But most of their life, they're completely bored doing nothing. Yeah, yeah. So I remember some nights, like we'd be bored and he'd dress up in this giant chicken outfit

and we'd go down to Sunset Boulevard and he'd chase people in a chicken suit. For no reason. For no reason. No one would know this giant chicken that just chased him was Marilyn Manson. And he's all jacked up on blow? Yeah.

Yeah, or we'd have like four, I don't remember if it was DVDs or videos back then, but we'd watch like four movies in like 10 minutes because they were so coked up oh just fast forwarding to the good part yeah exactly

now when you do that stuff do you gain did you do blow with him you know it's a great question so my first night out with him he had this CD case

which is what you did it on back then sure really dates it yeah but depending on what you have CDs right here yeah yeah so and he said do the dust yeah and I wasn't sure if like was it coke or was it angel dust I don't know

well I wasn't I was kind of naive yeah but I wanted to fit you know I wanted to fit in I wanted to not make them feel weird yeah so I did the move where I kind of bent down but I kind of blew it a little bit to get it off the train look like my nose and you know the floor it was a mess he knew though right yeah what are you doing yeah yeah thank you. And you're like, I don't do this. It was a party fall. But eventually, yeah, but eventually like, yeah, I would do enough.

I would do a little bit. I can't imagine. It was like coffee. Oh, so you didn't do too much to where you, you know, because I imagine you strike me as a, well, I don't know if it's introverted, but slightly neurotic. I can't imagine you in a panic situation.

Yeah, totally neurotic. I'm not good with like psychedelics those are the worst so um but i remember one night i was doing a little bit more with them and i noticed i was losing my temper more often i would lose my i would be temperament a little edgy edgy yeah so i went to the guys i'm like you know what i've been losing my temper a lot i don't think maybe it's because of the coke or something and one of the guys looks at me, goes, that's the best part. Yeah. And that was the last time I did it.

They were, they were using you as a clown. They were, they were, they totally were. I remember, I remember like a high point in my maturity came after I'd kind of done the game and I went over to Manson's birthday party and he had a giant sperm

outfit. And he said, will you dress up in the sperm outfit and dance around? Yeah. And I said, no. And that was like a big moment for me that I wasn't there crying anymore oh look at you speaking up for yourself exactly i will not put the sperm outfit on so after that you did the jameson book

um yeah after that i did the the motley crew book right and by the way we got to go back at some point to luna lounge because i want to talk about my impressions of you back there as well but so let's make sure let's go let's start there because like because after once you did the manson book i was so amazed and slightly resentful that somehow or another this mousy little fuck had figured out a way to to to make it i love it i love it i really had no idea i would be one of the people you resent it i'm proud to be amongst the small the powerful contingent well i always liked you but like, but there's always a slight distrust for journalists in general. So maybe at that time I had,

I don't know why I would have thought you ruined it, but maybe I thought it because you brought attention to it because it did get quite overwhelming after that. Yeah, crazy. There were lines out the door and it became a little crazy. But I don't think I really resented you. I was just sort of amazed

that you'd figured this thing out like i never know what a writer's trajectory is and i don't know that i would have understood you know music journalists and that you know doing what you do is actually a good call and a good way to earn a living and also you know continue writing right you know to do those type of ghost writing things i thought was pretty impressive so i probably just resented you because of your success right no exactly exactly but yeah I remember you had hair right yeah and you had kind of a little beard and wireframe glasses right not as bold as the glasses you have now right that the confidence you're exuding with your new frames that's exactly it what were your

impressions uh so so I remember I remember going to that scene and you were like the master. Yeah, the sweaty. You see yourself as sweaty, but I see yourself as kind of the master of that scene because you hosted the whole show. Most of them. I think so. A lot of them, I guess I did. And I remember after I did this story, I decided I got so into comedy seeing this. And you've talked about the show all the time, so I don't need to go over what it is.

But so many incredible people were there. what you were doing was so so enjoyable i never liked stand-up comedy till i went to the luna lounge and saw those shows and i was covering music i thought i went to the new york times i said we got to cover comedy like there are all these incredible yeah talented people and i got so obsessed that i did an article afterward where i went undercover six months to try and make it as a comic and i did one show at luna and that was like kind of the highlight of it and i remember i was looking over my notes before i came here and i said you know i'm terrified because in one phrase like mark maron could eviscerate me you know and that was my biggest fear was i said i know i can do this i know i got it handled this

is what you were going to luna yeah yeah this is what i was doing that one show i was worried in a phrase you would just was i was i even there you were there yeah you're hosting and i brought you up yeah well that would have made me mad at you right uh how'd you do i did fine like i got i got laughs it was fine i didn't bomb yeah yeah oh well well that's good i don't remember that article though uh i'll get it to you yeah i kind of went undercover and did the whole because i realized like it was just the hardest way to make it in any kind of form entertainment is is comedy because you're really you're used by the clubs who just use you to make money at pre-shows and I just it was fascinating you had this quality then that you could kind of zealig a little bit and you were willing to take some risks in sort of a gonzo fashion to get your story

right so let's go through like what did you learn from the Manson experience? Sure. And, yeah, so from the Manson, I think he really taught me how to write in a lot of ways, in the sense that it had to be interesting. You didn't have to tell everything, just tell the interesting parts. He was also a writer, so he would, of all the people I worked with, he would call me up and suggest phrases, because he always think the ghostwriter wrote it all. But he'd call me up and he's like i just thought of this metaphor like the blades of grass squished brown by the wheels of lawn chair furniture uh-huh and i'd be like okay i'll get that in there somewhere thanks for your contribution yeah exactly i'm trying to i'm trying to edit you know nine hours

of coke talk right right exactly that's pretty much it and then there were there was um like he we had this section of the book called the rules which are the rules for whether uh rules for cheating when when it's not cheating doesn't count so he might call from spain and say well here's a reason why it's not cheating it's not cheating if you have sex with her in another country then you call your girlfriend in the states before before the time zone has caught up well that's because that means it hasn't happened yet. So it's okay. Or he'd call from South America and say,

if she has a tattoo of you on her, it's just common courtesy to have sex with her. And is he still with the woman he was cheating on? No, no, he's gone through many since then. Well, that must have planted in your head, given the future that became you. I imagine that once you took the shift from rock and roll into Jenna Jameson's wife, that

must have had some impact on what became your future. Yeah. Well, I think all along I was trying to put myself in the way of sex so I could have some, right? Yeah. So with Motley Crue, I just thought if I can go on the road with Motley Crue, I'm going to finally get sex. But you had no game.

No game. It was, and literally, I mean, I really- I still can't imagine you having game. Right, thank you. But it's the guy who goes under the radar that does the best, but thank you. I mean, if I came in and I looked like a guy who had game, that's probably the most unlikable guy you can imagine. So I'd go backstage and there'd be a road case.

I'd get a stack of backstage passes during the show. And I'd kind of hand them out to women. And then they'd say thank you. And then then they go try to fuck to the start yeah and i wouldn't figure i'm so i couldn't figure out when when am i supposed to how does the sex happen for me yeah you're still a clown weren't you yeah pretty much the guy that you go find the hottest women and he's like hey you want to come backstage and they're like yeah thank you loser yeah exactly but i didn't have but also it's like i didn't want to be the dick who's like okay if you get you get this if you well me right yeah like that's you never did that i don't think i could ever do that could you no no no yeah i uh

it just it's i can't no i you know i can't i wouldn't get there would be no pleasure and i wouldn't be able to get i would feel like such a shithead i i have a very hard time with uh like i i require somewhat of a you know a slightly deeper connection than just you know using somebody to masturbate with or you know to you know complete objectification i'm not i have never been that good at it i need to feel like we're connecting somehow yeah that's a nice thing right it is a nice thing but that can be problematic too because if you if you need that and you it, but then right afterwards you're still sort of like, all right, well, I guess I'm done. Right. And you've connected in that way with another person. It doesn't necessarily mean it's lasting.

And I think the results could be worse if the emotions are felt. And what do you mean by that? The results can be worse if the emotions are well i mean like like because there's a you know like i guess there are some guys that you would know better that that really just see the um the conquest and the sex and the moving through you know having the sex and then being done with it well if you put emotional connection in with that too which i think happens a lot of times anyways i've in my, I found it very rare where you can have a clean kind of like sexual experience that doesn't carry some baggage afterwards. Maybe you can find it with those people. But, you know, like, you know, I know you've had some experience with swinging communities and whatnot.

But in my experience, swingers are usually kind of just, you know, lumpy in game. You know, just kind of like. Mine was different but i'll fill you in later well yeah i'm sure lumpy and game that's the the swinging handbook lumpy and game but uh but no i just found that like you know it's very hard for me to uh to just completely sexualize so so there and and it becomes a little more confusing like that you know i'm totally gonna ask an inappropriate question, which is, I was thinking the, you know, the eating issues, the steam issues, the anger, all those issues. I thought, and I don't know if you've written about this or talked about it, I thought, like, it must play out in your sex life in some way where there's, you want some submission or dominant stuff.

Well, I don't, like, I'm still sort of, like, figuring some of that dominant stuff. Well, I don't like, I'm still sort of like figuring some of that stuff out. Like the sex issues, you know, in codependency and sort of love addiction. And, you know, I've never, I know compulsive sex addicts and I know porn addicts. And I know, you know, I know guys that have, you know, I've dabbled in all that stuff, but it never made my life unmanageable, which is really the determining factors deciding that. But I understand it. So yeah, sure, if you have an addictive personality, it's going to find its way to whatever it is.

It's going to have a preference, but if you deny it that, it'll find the other one. But I was thinking more separate from the addiction stuff. I'll ask it again, but there may be a dead-end question. I'm so curious, though, with there's a lot of that, the shame that you have, and then there's the anger. anger and i feel like does that come on some odd way i don't like i don't know that i've i've explored it thoroughly right there's there's parts of me that think so well maybe i should explore that a little bit right but then there's a fear of that well then

do i want to become that guy right do you know what i mean like you know i'm okay with sex right you know could it be amazing if you know if i did a little more uh uh you know if i found somebody who was willing to to to get choked out or spank around a bit maybe but then like you know it's a slippery slope right i can you know what i think it's not what you're doing it's why you're doing it you know if you are no but but but that's you're backloading that oh go ahead tell me but i mean when you're in it right that you know if you keep if you keep raising the stakes of of fulfilling your desire and opening your mind right or your experience that you're eventually going to hit a wall if

you have an addictive personality for sure yeah it's yeah it's like it's like some people can have a drink or try a drug and it's fine other people it's going to be a slippery slope and they're going to go off the edge but let's go let's go back to stuff well no we're going to get there so so okay so you're you're you're a dweeby guy who's not thank you who's not great at talking to women right and now you've got to follow jenna jameson around yeah and again i thought if it didn't work with motley crew it's definitely work with jenna jameson right you must have gotten something nothing not from her but from someone i know i remember being a limo and there were all these kind of other porn stars and they're all making out.

I'm just sitting there watching them thinking, how do I get in on this? Like, I didn't know how to get in on it. I don't even know today how I, maybe I would. They were all just kind of making out. I was like, oh, I don't want to get my male energy all over their female kind of top of this make out session. You were like immediately codependent to the situation. Yeah.

Yeah. They call it pathological accommodation where you're like, so don't want to make anyone else uncomfortable so you just put yourself in the backseat. Just disappear. Yeah, exactly. You're an invisible guy. Yeah, which is the recipe for being a journalist, right? Yeah, absolutely.

But what was your experience in the porn life? What did you find out about porn? So first of all, it was fascinating because again, this is not a surprise, but they'd get together and talk and they would all have just so many abuse stories. I know it's the cliche and people try to pretend like it's not. But, for example, Jenna James would do interviews, would do Howard Stern.

He'd say, you must have had some kind of abuse in your background. She'd say, no, never. But, of course, when we talked, she did. She just didn't want to be that cliche. So that was really a common story. Obviously, the addiction stuff. So publicly, a lot of them would not cop to it, but privately it was there. Yeah, because they didn't want to be that cliche.

Right. Well, they didn't want to be. There's something about the image of the sexual object, which is their job, as not necessarily, of having some power and not being a victim. Right. Publicly. Right. Publicly. Right. And I suppose it would ruin the fantasy for guys

if they, if you thought about that. Yeah, that's probably true. And the funny thing too, again, it was kind of like, she was the number one porn star that time. So I'd walk around at the airport and think, man, all these guys have probably masturbated to her. Sure.

It's fascinating. I one time went up to a porn star. Right. And like, I didn't know quite how to do it. I't remember which one it was but it was before jenna was uh early on when when i would watch it you know i never was never a guy who rented porn so like you know i'd see clips and this and that or give you know get these dvds or whatever but uh there was one that i forget her fucking name but i saw her at the airport you know with her husband who was also in it or her her uh guardian or whatever and i had suitcase pimps yeah yeah i i uh you know i had to say something

i didn't and all i came up with was like uh hey i really like your work right which is just saying like i masturbated to you a lot a lot yeah yeah right you can't say like god when you take it in your mouth and then put it you know you can't like go into detail. I guess you could because they certainly feel that stuff all the time. Right. Well, it's funny because one of the most surreal experiences of my life was sitting with her and she was showing the movie and forwarding past the sex to show me the acting. No. Swear to God.

Was she proud of it? Yeah, she was proud of it. She thought it was really good. It was like really a sweet thing. Was it good? Yeah. I mean, was it good? Good enough.

Yeah. Yeah. And then I got, when I do the books, I really immerse myself, you know, with Mance and I, like, whatever, playing on one of his albums. And with her, I decided they wanted me to write a porn script for her. So I based it on Ambrose Beer's short story, which nobody's going to know who watched it. But it won the AVN for like best video or best whatever it is. Yeah. So I based it on Ambrose Bier's short story, which nobody's going to know who watched it, but it won the AVN for best video or best whatever it is. Oh, really?

Yeah, so I felt like- Did you get one? No, it went awesome though, right? They don't give writers awards for it? They don't give it to the writers. No, but I always knew I had a backup career. Of course you do. A lot of dudes do that.

Michael Bloomfield, the amazing guitar player, was strung out on heroin and he used to do Mitchell Brothers soundtracks. Did Jerry Stahl do that stuff too? I'm sure he did. Did he script pornos? I don't know if he did.

I'll ask him. We could call him later. Great. I mean, he's done just about everything. Exactly. It's safe to assume that that was probably

part of his story. All right, so here was the big shocker. So when the game comes, I had it, I was looking for it. I don't know what happened to it. Right.

But what I had heard was, I saw the book and I got what it was and i was like all right neil's doing another investigative thing but then then i got started hearing bits and pieces of like no no he's like he's out there speaking like he runs workshops i'm like whoa wait wait wait neil strauss neil strauss and they're like yeah yeah he's like this guy who's like this like pussy magnet this pickup artist. He's running these workshops and he lives in a mansion in Malibu and there's women all around.

I'm like, whoa, wait, this is same Neil Strauss? Did that happen? Yeah, but I, but see, you see it like I see it. You know, I'll do like a new show and there'll be like, and here's the biggest douchebag in the world who just wrote the manual for men with no, but you see it how i see it which is i was just a nerdy right writer dude who somehow went immersive in this community wrote a book about it and then uh and again i really got into it in the book i didn't it wasn't just sort of detached uh well then later you did because

this is like what you've been waiting for it's what i've been waiting it's what basically like molly crew couldn't do it jen Jameson couldn't do it, but these kind of nerdy, weirdly dressed guys somehow did it. Yeah. And you were, I imagine, revered and demonized? Yeah. It was a weird, it's a weird, I still don't, even 10 years, so I just got a call from Nightline. Yeah.

And they want to do a piece on, they're like, we want to write about it, just pick up a workshop and then talk to you. I'm like, no, this book's 10 years old. I don't even want to talk about it. It's just, it doesn't go away. Well, what happened? Like, you know, walk me through it. Like, you know, not assuming I read the book.

Right. Okay. Walk me through it like a slaw pitch. Okay. Yes. My name is Neil Strauss and I'm a sex and love addict. What happened? What was it like? What happened

and what's it like now, Neil? The funny thing, at my first SLAW meeting, there was a woman there I thought was kind of attractive. Sure. So I didn't want to say I was a sex addict

because it might ruin my chances. Yeah, of course. You're not alone with that. Okay. So what happened was the book editor I did the Motley Crue book with called me up

and he said, hey, I found out about this. There's this community of guys online. Yeah don't have money looks or fame and they're exchanging this knowledge on how to meet attract seduce women and they've got it kind of figured out to a science uh-huh and he's like I want you to take their information and put it into a how-to book for me and I said listen I write for the New York Times I'm a serious writer yeah that's not something I'm interested in but can you give me the URL? Yeah.

And so I sort of started reading this stuff and like there were all these posts with guys with weird names of Mystery and Form Handle and Kandor, all these weird names, but they would describe like blow by blow everything they did. I'm like, oh my God, this is it. Because when I was writing for the New York Times,

I'd go to these shows, concerts, you go to every concert and I'd try and meet these women and I'd have tickets to the next school concert and they'd come with me. I'd just always end up in friend zone no matter what I did. Right, right. So I felt like these guys had the secret to finally. Yeah, you were going to get some.

Right. And you hadn't had a girlfriend or anything? No, what I would do, if I slept with someone, I would make them, try my best to make them my girlfriend so that I could keep, stay with somebody for a few years and not be so lonely right maybe like a couple years you know a few years dry spell between that so you go into this and you see these guys got the answer so you pitch a piece where your book where you're gonna be among them no i know i didn't dare tell anyone that i was into it so okay so this is your highbrow man your new york time right right exactly and so what i did was uh i found out that one of this guy named Mystery was doing his first

workshop. And a workshop is he meets you out in, quote, the field in a club or a bar and he shows you how to approach women then has you do it. How many guys are involved in this? You mean how many guys? When you go to a workshop, is it like there's 20 guys sitting at the end of a bar while this one guy goes watch? It was like six guys.

Okay. But some of them now are like 20 guys. So the whole thing's insanely weird. So, so it was $600 or $500. I forget which I put the money in an envelope. Yeah. Terrified to meet this guy and terrified that I'm going to find out I work for the New York times. Right.

And then I remember we were at the, I guess the standard was the cool place. Right. The bar there. And Scott Baio was there with this beautiful woman. Yeah. And he walked in, started like doing magic tricks. And next thing I know, Scott baio turns to me and goes you know is this a magic

trick because he's stealing my girlfriend like whoa this is amazing this guy can walk i just anyone who could talk to one is my hero and this guy's walking in like stealing you know a semi you know celebrity's girlfriend i'm like i that was it i was done it was like who was like that first hit of crack mystery was the coke did nothing for me but watching mystery do this thing was my coke was he he was the one doing magic he was doing magic so that was his way in he's like look at what okay yeah but he wouldn't it isn't like look what i can do he'll be talking about oh that's kind of interesting you know it's kind of like this and he would do it in a way that wasn't braggy or show off right right right and you know and then he knew

magic yeah and he'd make them beg yeah sort of like you know oh i oh okay if you insist kind of yeah right so magic was his kind of way in or it's a way to to sort of like upstage everybody uh-huh and uh and did he get his ass kicked by scott bea no no he didn't he got the he got the woman's phone number and oh and that was it okay see guys see what just happened right that's what and you were like do i need to learn magic i did learn magic i could probably do table magic as a background i can can read minds, make things levitate, all that. Really? Really.

And you were hooked? Like my reality was blown. Yeah. Yeah. And then what happens? So then I just tried to start to hang around him as much as I could. And eventually he's like, oh, I need a wing for my workshops. It's so weird, man.

It's so surreal, right? Yeah. Surreal. So he's like, I need a wing for my workshops. I'm like, oh, I want to do that just to learn what you're doing. Is he an attractive guy, this guy? It depends on how you see him.

He's tall. He's like six feet tall. But it's funny that we go to looks. I don't think it has anything to do with looks. No, no, of course not. But some people find him attractive. But like, you know, would you classify him as like a guy

who was once like you? Is this like the back of a comic book? Is it like Charles Atlas kicks in in your face? Oh, no, he's super nerdy. like if he's not going out and putting on the whole show it's sort of like long greasy hair and a ponytail computer nerd guy right but then you go out and you know really dress up and act all unconfident but and and and become that other guy okay that was an illusion okay so he asked you to be his wingman right so it's so immature i mean again like i i got so caught up and it's ridiculous to talk

about it so why do you feel ashamed of it yes like i really i do okay i mean it's embarrassing right all right my biggest opportunity in life was not when you know john perellas of the new york times called me and said will you write for us it was when mystery asked me to be his wingman you know but obviously it spoke to something some deep need inside me to finally really get acceptance well there's nothing like you know getting sex is is exciting yeah and it means a lot yes thank you thank you for validating that um and uh so so then we started traveling around the world doing workshops uh and eventually i started to get good at it uh and i found all the other guys who i read about in that in that community and kind of befriended

them all and learned their different tips and tricks. And I guess, and I think the surreal thing happened was about maybe like a year and a half or two years into it, they did a survey in this weird world of pickup artists of the top pickup artists. And I was number one and Mr. was number two. The student has surpassed the master. It's such a, I mean, it's a facet. That's why it's such a weird book.'s such a fascinating bizarre story so grasshopper was going to go out to the west on his own now yeah and then and then at some point before this i'd realize this community is so insane i gotta write about this and and it's got to be a book and did like and you pitched the book uh or you wrote it on spec i know i my publisher with this woman

judith regan who's fantastic. Oh, yeah, yeah. I think I know who she is. She's great. She's like the Medici of publishers. So I would just sit with her. I was telling her about it. And I told her book. She's like, let's do it.

Yeah. She's the kind of person who goes off her intuition. No pitch. I mean, no pitch. She just said, that's cool. Let's do it. And that was it. And she had done your other books?

She'd done my other books. Yeah. So she knows you can sell books. Right. Yeah. Yeah. She knew I could write and she, but I'd never done one on my own before. Now, so this book was sort of

half memoir, half investigative journalism. The game was. Exactly. But you were in over your head. But I was in over, there's a little kind of a Donnie Brasco element to it where I didn't know my journalist or my, in the mafia.

I love that movie. Yeah, it's great. It's like, I think it's an unsung movie. I think it's a great movie. So, all right, so you're in, and now you're the number one guy. Right. And now how much are you getting laid?

I mean, I remember like it was my birthday and I know to brag about it is unseemly. No, you can. Maybe not frame it as bragging, but like at my lowest. There we go. That's a humble brag, right? At my lowest. No, I mean, I a humble brag, right? At my lowest. No, I mean, I think it was such that you would sort of decide each night, am I going to kind of call someone over

or go out with someone I've met or am I going to go out and kind of meet new people? Or it was weird. It was like a skillset you would work on. It's like, it wasn't enough to have sex. It was like, okay, how can I kind of turn getting a threesome into a science? And how can I,

you would work through all this stuff. And this point, we're all living together in a house too. We were all living together in a house. I just did an article for Rolling Stone and Courtney Love. She moved into a science. Right. And I would work through all the stuff. And this point, we're all living together in a house too. We were all living together in a house. I just did an article for Rolling Stone and Courtney Love. She moved into the house. Yeah.

So we had a house with maybe six pickup artists and Courtney Love. What? Yeah. It's like, it sounds like a reality show. Like a reality show.

And what was she doing? She like, I think she was having money issues and hiding from paparazzi and she lived with us. And so these guys would be in the living room doing a pickup workshop.

Yeah. And Courtney Love would come like careening through topless. And for some guys, that was their first sight of a female breast. Really? Yeah. Oh, so those were the kind of guys that were coming. Yeah.

Yeah. It was just like sad, desperate men who were lonely and wanted to know what that trick was. It was a mix of a lot of guys who just came out of divorces. Oh. And felt like just- Bitter bitter angry broken-hearted guys for example yeah uh broke probably yeah spending their last six hundred dollars speaking from experience yeah and and uh some were some were guys who were really good looking cool guys but they didn't know it inside they didn't have that esteem other guys a lot of uh people who are over as exchange students from

somewhere else and just felt out of place in the culture. So a lot of guys like that. But did you get the sense that any of them were really looking for relationships or they were just looking to get? I mean, I guess that's where it got sort of blurry for you is that you somehow annihilated your ability or your capacity on top of whatever psychological issues that you come to grips with in this new book, The Truth. You sort of annihilated the ability to have any sense of what that would be. I think so. I mean, I think when you're in it, no one was like, I just want to have, nobody just want to have sex with women for the rest of their lives.

Very few people. People wanted to have a relationship. They wanted to be able to pick the person and choose the person. Nobody was like, we want to be pickup artists and just have one night stands. Really? That was a rare breed of person. Yeah. Even when I was doing it, I was like, I just want when I and just have one night stand really that was a rare breed of person yeah even when i was doing i was like i just want when i really meet someone i'm really attracted to them to be able to not blow it so it was never like i'm not in a relationship

but oh but but wait there's a big big leap between that you know uh saying when i meet the one that i want that i'm not going to blow it and like what's the's the craft of threesomes? Right. Yes, yes, exactly. It was like, I want to do that, but a little bit later, because I'm having fun right now. But the big divide was like a divide existed in your mind between men and women. So the real problems with it were objectification, obviously, and manipulation. Right. So in other words, if I saw a woman, their word was sarging. So sarging is their word.

They had their own language. Right. So if I saw a woman, like I would have to sarge, i could be in a business meeting and be that i would perform it all what does it mean uh sarging was like going out to like pick up or seduce so the approach the yeah first first step um no i think sergeant was just the the uh the whole going out to, the whole thing with Sarge. Oh, okay. The, I guess, seduction process. You're going out to Sarge. Yeah. Right.

So, okay. So you at some point realized in the midst of all this, living in a house full of guys figuring out how to get women. Right. That you might not be respecting women. How long did that take you? Yeah. It took me longer.

It's the funny thing about writing a book is you read it and you realize pretty early on. But for sure, it all combusted, even within the book, like all these fake alpha males

because you're trying to be an alpha male and there's nothing worse than anyone who sees the world as an alpha and beta male. So all these fake alpha males living in a house started fighting with each other.

One guy slept with some other guy's ex and that guy tried to kill him. A mystery. The book begins with mystery trying to commit. So begins with mystery trying to commit suicide over a woman. So the whole thing became just the immaturity of it. Sounds like you guys underestimated the power of women. I think we underestimated. Your own vulnerability. Yeahimated your own vulnerability yeah your own vulnerability and uh um that somehow you're going to somehow become a better person through through through whatever or was it really

a better person or just a winning person in the in the eyes of what masculinity has been defined as oh that's great that's great thank you i love like i think i love it's a it's a nuanced world and that's that's exactly what it is and that's exactly the problem with it yeah well so what did your bottom look like um oh i think the bottom for me was, uh, was just living in that house. All the guys fighting each other. One guy trying to commit suicide. I met somebody actually was in Courtney loves band who I really had this, really had this huge crush on.

Yeah. And, uh, and I had a sort of get real to have a real relationship with her. And she was like, she said the wisest words, which like you were, even though Mark Barron doesn't think so. She was like, you're cool all along. You didn't need these guys to show you anything you no i i have i have no issue with you i'm just judging in the context of you know of how you saw yourself in a way you know it's so true and and and the the weird thing is like yeah i bust your balls a little bit but you know i you

and i are more alike than we are different right and because i i you know i i sort of process through a lot of this stuff in terms of you know what you know i did a bit on it in my last special about what kind of man am i really you know because you know you judge yourself against what you think are alpha guys and you know you you're insecure in certain ways and even if you do find somebody that loves you for who you are that doesn't necessarily mean it's gonna you know make you feel better about yourself it could be the worst thing in the world because then you're sort of like you know i don't like me how can you like me and they can fucking implode that thing and people are attached to their own little opinion of themselves if something rocks that they for some reason they want to hold

on to wait for some reason it's it's who you are you know like for you know for whatever reason it's the most consistent disposition you know yeah and it happened a long time ago because of some emotional deprivation that was done on behalf of your parents. And that's exactly what, you know, with the retrospect now that I realized what the game was, was just if I was the game was me overbearing, dominant, you know, neurotic mom having a total fear of women and feeling like I needed to have some sort of power or control over the situation. So it had nothing even to do with sex. It was just about self-esteem and fear. But sex is good. The truth of the matter is,

no matter what your psychological issues are, when you do get to have sex, there's still very little difference between that immediate experience when it's happening from however old you are now to when you were 13. I mean, the stakes might be higher. It might be weirder than you might've thought. It might not be the best situation, but that moment where you're like, oh, I'm having sex.

That's pretty constant. Right. I mean, like that's what shooting up heroin felt like, right? So the moment that's fine in the very moment when the needle enters your arm and you feel the rush go to your heart, that feels good. That's right. But the moment that's fine in the very moment when the needle enters your arm and you feel the rush go to your heart that feels good that's right but oh yeah i guess that's true and i i sort of stepped out of the but it's like it's addiction model right is that you know it can you you it does eventually stop working yeah and oh good and you hate yourself right and if you're just having sex it's pleasurable and it's nice and it feels good and you enjoy people that's

great but if you're doing it to fill some hole that's addiction it's if you're doing it to you're doing to fill some hole inside or just right because you like it right yeah you know i don't you know it's weird i you know i i don't know ultimately how clear i am on all this stuff because like i still deal with this stuff all the time you know i'm in a relationship now and i've not i've not been able to sustain a relationship i don't have children i've definitely had you know sexual issues and emotional issues uh for my entire life it's one part of my life which is you know still tricky and difficult even with self-awareness and some practical work you know but it really does come down to cognitive behavior you know uh cognitive um choices uh after a certain point do you want to talk about what i

learned because that's what I'm most excited about. Great, you're right there. But what I want to make sure everyone understands is that the game sold millions of books. Right. You know, it propelled you into a, reluctantly into a career that you probably didn't see

that you were going to have. It characterized you culturally in a very specific way that some people might find hucksterish, other people might find obnoxious. But there was enough men out there that thought you were a portal to some wizardry necessary to them that it validated you. And so in retrospect, even though we have the truth here, the new book, you did make a deal with the devil well i'll tell you i'll tell you the way i kind of see it but go ahead no but i mean like and now you know uh you know you're you're negotiating your way out through personal enlightenment that that that's not the way i see

it but i i see that narrative okay um and maybe maybe it is right i gotta i'll think it through so here's so here's what here's here's the way i mean the way the way i kind of see it, but I see that narrative. Okay. And maybe it is right. I'll think it through. So here's the way. The way I kind of see it was, but it was weird. So when the game came out, I just thought, it's just a weird, it's a book I wrote about, like any other book. And I remember my phone started ringing that day with guys calling like, hey, there's this one girl I met. Can you help me?

Literally the day it came out. Guys you know? Guys I didn't know. They looked at my number. I was listed. Oh, okay. And that's the moment i got my number unlisted yeah and again i kind of kept i did the book tour i was ready to do the next book and then like what was the next book um the next book was trying to remember um so you were out i was gonna do a graphic novel with this bern illustrator. Yeah, so I was out. And then these guys came up to me and they said, hey, you should, and I didn't really

even have a website, no website address. And these guys came up to me and they said you should, and they were marketers and they're like, you should do this teaching thing. Make the manual. Right. And I was really reluctant and made him jump through a bunch of hoops and said, it's not what I did. And eventually I let them kind of take over and did it.

Oh, right. That's so, it wasn't your fault at all. It wasn't my fault at all. But I remember like, I remember like, I remember the day, like it sold out in half an hour. The manual. The game. What was it called? The game.

Rules of the game. Rules of the game was like my public. It's weird. My publisher said, let's do this how to thing. Yeah. And I said, only do I'm a storyteller. It's weird. I've just totally resisted.

It's almost compartmentalized that side of my life. Yeah. You have compartmentalized the actual Faustian deal. Yes. So I felt like I said, I'll do this how-to book. Half of it can be stories.

The other half will be how-to. But what I think is nice. Go ahead, tell me. Show me my own hypocrisy. Throw it in my face. It's not hypocrisy. Yeah, go ahead. It was how you can live with yourself.

Right. It's not hypocrisy. Explain it. I can't explain it. But what I'm hearing is like, it's not hypocrisy yeah go ahead it was how you can live with yourself right it's not hypocrisy i can't explain it but what i'm hearing is like it's not really what i do but if we can integrate a little bit of what i do into your agenda as well and make a little cash let's do that but i don't want to sell out completely let me tell some stories because i'm a writer it's like the best interview ever oh man it's really that that i've been outside the cash because i don't think like that i you don't do a book for i don't know it's probably all right i don't fucking know well no no you're so but you're so right it totally

you like you trick yourself into doing these things yeah you i mean that's how selling out works for people with integrity. But you have to. But, you know, whether or not you saw the profit end of it anyways, like when you are, and I've said this before, I mean, you don't really make big money until you make someone else big money. And you were in that position. Like your publisher, you know, knew, they all knew, you know, the marketers and the publisher, they knew it was like almost like a guarantee.

No, you're so right. I mean, it really is a forking path. I think about like almost like a guarantee. No, you're so right. I mean, it really is a forking path. I think about it all the time. Yeah. I mean, you're so right. There's a book called Life is Elsewhere by Balan Kundera. Yeah. And this guy has a choice between becoming a total hack and being an artist. Right.

And chooses the hack road because of his mother issues and the pressures of the time. Right. And I always think of that as a forking path. And I've tried to keep one foot on both sides of the forking path, but now it's getting too wide that I can't straddle him anymore. And that's where it was when you did the rules of the game and that's when after that it's kind of where it is now in a way yeah i just feel like i tried to like okay i'll do this stuff but i'm still a serious writer and journalist i'm still writing for rolling stone it

doesn't count that i do so this book this new book the truth is is is this is your this is your redemption i don't think of it that way i hate to think of it that way because i don't think it tell me how you see it maybe you're right maybe you have a better perspective no i don't have any perspective but but you you know you had a a cathartic existential uh crisis of self around where you were in the world and also you hit a personal wall and bottom where you realized that you were you were empty and your integrity had been drained from this fucking thing that, you know, the sex addiction and the publishing industry and, and, and your requirements, uh, and what was required of you. And this is your sort of like, I have to redeem myself for myself. Yes, this is, I got to tell you, I really mean it.

This is the best narrative because you're, I'm outside myself. You see it better, but there's a press narrative that's totally not true. This is the, I really want to listen back to this because you understand this book

better than I am. No, because like, you know, when you are consumed and, you know, not necessarily greed, but, you know, when you're consumed and it's something that is as powerful as sex addiction and it's your bread and butter. Yeah. Yes.

Because when I was in rehab, they said everyone was acting, adding up what their sex addiction has cost them. Yeah. You know, they're like, it cost my home. And you're like, it got me my home. Yeah. It was exactly it. They're like, I spent a quarter million dollars on prostitutes.

I'm like, I paid a quarter million dollars off this book you know like you know i'm like i don't know you're not the sympathetic case at the uh at the sex addiction meeting right i'll tell you man if it weren't for my sex addiction i would not have my house or my car or the opportunities that i haven't right i'm in such a bad place, you guys. Right, exactly. All right, so, okay, so the rules of the game come out and now you're overwhelmed, I would imagine, with that type of notoriety.

And I imagine it's quite conflicting and also painful, I would assume. Yeah, it's weird. I sort of became yeah i would read about myself in the media and be like is that i sort of became a i just feel like the game and what was your mother saying uh my oh my mother my mother was cool with everything until i went to sex addiction rehab to get better then she had a problem with stuff oh really because like you know what you lost control i don't understand no understand yeah okay let's oh because then you were identified as a sex addict i think it's she

she she really said like so people have affairs big deal like no but like you know nothing's wrong with you uh this book this book no the last one i think she has no problem with me having casual sex the whole problem was she didn't want me having relationships so the whole if you go back she didn't know that she didn't know that right but she wanted her relationship with me to be the primary one in my life this is what you learned uh through your recovery right okay so what happened recovery sounds like i hate okay this is what happened no no recovery is fine but it's got so many recovery is a fine word well no well let's let's uh unload it from uh from what it means in the context of psychological treatment. Yeah, I'll tell you the way I see it

is when I found out like, what's all the programming that I'm operating on and how can I change that program? Well, yeah, what essentially was it in your childhood that created the emotional deprivation that that made you seek uh uh uh you know uh self-completion through these various ways that were dangerous exactly good great way to say it good so so what did happen what you met the girl from whole but or from her new band and then and then we uh

had a relationship but of course in my mind she was turning into my mom so i had to break up with her but in reality i was probably just making her and you know what i mean she might do one thing that reminds you read the fantasy bond yes okay great uh firestone yeah yes great book so when you say you know turning into her whether you project it or not what because you you end up in that same relationship every time, one way or the other. Exactly. Because, you know, whatever you have that interfaces with what they have is exactly what you grew up with or what drives you into the pathological self parenting that creates the self loathing. Yeah. Yeah.

There's a line in the book that says when it's love at first sight, run in the other direction. You know, all that's happened is your child, your wounds have met their wounds. Yeah, trauma bonding. Yeah, trauma bonding. What were those attributes? In terms of identifying the emotional manipulation of your mother, what was it? Right. I'll never forget, like, there's that moment where your life changed, and maybe the equivalent of mystery, picking up Scott Baio's girlfriend, which, again, is the most pathetic epiphany in the world, is I was sort of, right?

That was the moment my life changed when mystery picked up Scott Baio's girlfriend. Oh boy, you're going to tell your grandkids that. Exactly. So I was sort of in, I was being really, by the way, I was really cynical about the whole rehab sex addiction thing. When I checked in, they said anyone who masturbates is a sex addict. Anyone who watches porn is a sex addict. There are some groups, not this one, that say anyone who has premaritalates is a sex addict, anyone who watches porn is a sex addict. There are some groups, not this one,

that say anyone who has premarital sex is a sex addict. So basically everyone listening would be a sex addict by someone's definition. Well, culturally, it's actually this very weird and unspoken malignancy that the access to pornography is completely annihilating millions of people's ability to maintain intimacy.

I believe that. Right. You? I think that there's sort of the swing states of compulsion that like, if you already have that compulsion,

it's really easy to dive into it. That's what I mean, just access. Yeah. It was better when you had to go to the gross store. Right.

Or be embarrassed. But you would still mastermate just as much of that one magazine as fine but still you know like you know right that's that seems better and the variety i mean yeah yeah but versus channel flipping between 50 women for one orgasm it's insane it's fucking nuts yeah there's a lot of writing i mean it really must rewire your brain oh yeah but you know i yeah mean, I track my entire perception of sex to seeing porn too young. And it fucking hobbled me, man. What did you see that did that?

When I was like 14, we found a Betamax of Deep Throat and the opening of Misty Beethoven. Right. And then when I was 15, we actually had fake IDs and went to porn theaters. But the assumption at that age, especially for a socially awkward, sexually awkward kid that I was, was that that's the way it's done. Right. And anything below that or that doesn't happen that way is not good sex. So, you know, I was fucked from the get go. Yeah, because they call it that's your attraction template. Like it sets a template in your mind for what sex is supposed to be.

Your first experience molds you. Right. It creates those neural connections that don't exist. Right. So you do a lot of research. Yeah. It's fascinating. And I think-

It's all in the truth. You went scientific. You went spiritual. You went cognitive. You went straight up psychological. Yeah. And entered all these alternative communities of alternative relationships. So the moment that my life kind of changed was I was sitting there really being cynical about this with what I thought was this kind of castrating therapist who didn't want men to have any sex at all.

You projected that. Yes. And she started, you do something called a timeline, which is all the high points all the big moments of your life yeah and she looked at it and she saw this pattern

and she said you know why you can't be in a relationship I'm like no and she goes because your mom wants to be in a relationship with you

and I just felt this cold wind blue and it seemed so preposterous yet something in me just sort of like recognized this and this is the moment the queasiness

yeah and then she goes then there's a name for this and it's called emotional incest. And I was like, what the fuck? Yeah. Yeah. Keep talking. You're helping me. So, so, and the idea of this, of emotional incest is this, is that when your parents,

when your need, your, your existently to, uh, to serve your parents' needs versus your parents serving your needs. I had the same childhood. I knew that. I mean, I knew that because I looked at, I had an emotionally absent dad like yours, right? And then a mom who's overplayed by her problems to take care of mine. So it's that one clue of it is where you grow up feeling sorry for a parent. Right. Did you?

What I felt was a loyalty. Yes. That was unnatural. Yeah. A loyalty to their emotional states. Exactly. So their emotional needs come before yours.

Sure. And what happens- They use you. Yeah, and you're used. Yeah. And you just don't realize it because it seems normal. In fact,

the sort of, the thing about it is where if someone's, where something's sort of physical abuse or yelling at someone or criticizing, well, we know that makes us feel bad. You can identify it. It's like the difference, it's like, you know, like alcoholics. When you don't drink, you're not, you're not, you know, that's almost the problem. Right. But when it's vague, what was your, be it sexual? No.

Did they hit you? No. Right. It's actually more insidious. most of the problem right but when it's vague or what was your b-sexual no did they hit you no right it's actually more insidious and it's empowering because when your daddy's little girl or mommy's little man you know or you're kind of emotionally smarter than them you feel empowered so it feels good so you don't even recognize it as a but you end up with no sense of self no sense of self yes and in fact myself robert green who wrote the artist seduction you know tucker max is kind of the you know frat boy writer guy, we all had kind of depressed or narcissistic moms and didn't have that sense of self. Yeah.

I mean, I've been very aware of the project of completing myself. Yeah. within the last year that, you know, that because of something my therapist passively mentioned about the fantasy bond, that I was not able to, to, to that one piece that I got from Firestone that blew my mind is that, um, there's no one, if you're uncomfortable because of your parents' emotional abuse, you don't know as a kid, you know, you assume your parents are good. So there's no one to blame but yourself right and and that happens at a very young age so your attempt to self-parent is really

uh the is is self-loathing yeah and there's another great book called silently seduced i don't know if you've read it i forget the name of the author but silently seduced is the book he uh he talks about how what happens in relationships and tell me if this is true for you is you'll pick some you'll start taking care of their needs you get your worth and value by taking care of their needs but it's never enough and you start to build up resentment and that resentment starts to poison the relationship so you stay with them out of a sense of duty while this resentment piles up and eventually it all goes wrong right well no that's happened what they that that codependent piece me, like I didn't identify completely until pretty recently

until I was engaged to somebody and it blew up. And that was that relationship. But before that, I was sort of the other side. I was this sort of emotionally volatile, kind of problematic person and constantly in a state of contrition. And then I sort of learned to shut my mouth. And then I became dramatically,, I tried to nurture a very insane relationship, you know, almost blindly thinking that the other person would change.

And that was a big wake up call. Yeah. Because that if maybe there's this idea, if I can change, I can heal my childhood wounds. If I change her, it's like I fixed my mom and she's okay. Well, you're not thinking that way. Right. Subconsciously, unconsciously. I and she's okay. Yeah, well, you're not thinking that way. Subconsciously, unconsciously. I guess that's right, yeah.

But so the most freeing thing was for me to realize, yeah, that I was kind of running these unconscious patterns over and over and over again. And if I could, but by the way, recognizing was not enough. Like once I recognized him, like I still blew it for like years until I finally said, okay,

I got to take like the stuff that's wrong with me and think of it like a cancer and just like attack it with every, you know, therapy possible. And also like, I don't know if you do talk therapy. Is that mostly what you do? I find the talk therapy, like the information didn't come in rationally through your mind. It came in emotionally through your feelings. It's funny. It's hard to talk about that stuff, isn't it? Is it hard to talk about that?

Because I feel so passionate about it, but I don't, I find that it's hard to explain that deep., isn't it? Is it hard to talk about that? Because I feel so passionate about it, but I find that it's hard to explain that deep. I think we're... I'm not having a hard time understanding you. I'm just thinking for someone listening, they're like, okay, get over this therapy shit and tell us about the other stuff. You don't assume. You still have that weird accommodating thing.

You might want to work on that a little more. Great, man, right on. But no, because a lot of this work, I've been reluctant to do. And it's still fairly intellectual for me right now. Because what? Yeah, the intellectual. Yeah. And look.

I guess because like I've learned to live with pain. And I see it as sort of ground zero for me. And I like, you know, as a comic and as somebody who you know is emotionally insulated a bit except when i'm talking to strangers or people that i know are going to leave in 20 minutes like you that you know my capacity to stay open and to not live in those childhood fears that you know are um not real anymore is is muted and and and i think that one of the reasons i haven't done you know the the type of you know almost life-saving work that you felt you had to do was because of a different type

of fear that like you know this is you know that there is a deeply wired comfort and discomfort for me yeah i understand i mean i understand that i understand i understand that fear. And I think I had that too, that I would somehow lose something instead of gaining something. But I think you've got to do it because something has to change or something has to crack and you've got to take yourself outside your comfort zone.

And the other thing is, if you look at the way you're raised, and I don't, you know, like, you know, dad was emotionally distant, right? Your dad. And volatile. And volatile.

So you're kind of walking on eggshells. There's no connection. Mom was kind of consumed with her own stuff and her love was kind of conditional in a way and there was a lot of uh yeah there it was conditional but it was it was more based on their own fears there was a lot of worry on behalf of both of them that you know what they saw as love was a sort of panic yeah uh that you were almost like an appendage right and not a separate person you were like this you know in moments of panic you know you were just part of them that they were like you know i i've got to deal with that my mother had you know had eating disorders so her panic was mostly around my being fat so and and so what it wires you is to a have no idea

what intimacy is none and the inability to give or receive love. Yeah. And so this makes sense. I can connect. This is the game to you, which is I can connect with people, but in this position of power, we're in my garage. I'm controlling the conversation. We're going to leave later.

So this is probably why you're so good at it, because this is your intimacy. Kind of. Yeah. There's that. But it is my intimacy. Right. Yeah. But in other relationships like there's

also the fact that you know people start to see you a certain way which you experienced and and they'll want to interface with that what they see and then what and you may be putting it out but in your mind and in your heart you're like that ain't really me but you're not gonna do anything about it you're gonna let yourself just be taken right and that's some other horrible thing and and the and the other thing i'd imagine is that you you can't if you can't be calm if something's at peace you can't there always has to be some emergency some danger something about to go wrong yeah like yeah there's a there's definitely a drama element it's exhausting oh yeah yeah i it's it's a lot less with me now and i'm, I'm fairly cognizant of trying to, to sort

of cognitively manage it, you know, to not make choices that will cause it. So I'm on top of that a bit. Right. Yeah. I think I, yeah, I think so. And what's your resistance do you think to doing the things that will actually shift something? It will become sort of time and just sort of investigating how I need to do it.

Like, I don't like, you know, I know that I've made progress and I know that, and I've recently really realized that there is another leap I have to make, you know, that could free me and open my heart. I just have not pursued it as much, but I know it. You know, I'm not just blithely in denial.

I'll speak for myself, that I was so scared of marriage. I was scared of being with someone for the rest of my life. I was scared of myself that I was so scared of marriage. I was scared of being with someone for the rest of my life. I was scared of, you know, connection. If someone got too close or maybe clean with me,

I would just sort of like my skin would crawl. And, uh, and now it's like, oh man, I mean, it's the sex is better. Cause it's super, so connected.

Like I'm happier than I've ever been. And, uh, I can like the world's a little bit brighter. Cause I can see the, yeah, whatever. See the sunshine. And And I can, like, the world's a little bit brighter because I can see the, whatever, see the sunshine.

And it just, like, it's incredible how much energy I invested in keeping myself from being happy. Like, it's so much work to keep myself from being happy. It was insane. But when you're in it, you just think it's who you are. Exactly. And because it's so hard to see yourself.

Everyone else can see it. So the journey through the truth is this psychological journey and all its manifestations. Pretty much. And you move through a lot of different alternative lifestyle communities to see if there were solutions there. Yeah. It's funny because I sat down to write the book and it was going to be this kind of semi-angry book about how monogamy doesn't work.

Relationships don't work. It doesn't make sense. It doesn't scientifically make sense. Biologically. Biologically. And monogamy some of the catholic church institute in the ninth century right why are we still doing this you're still operating from your disease point of view yeah trying to justify your behavior exactly

i thought i'm going to go invent a new kind of relationship that's true and authentic to me and show the world how it's better and they they're wrong yeah right and then and so uh so i tried you know, the polyamory scene, the swinging scene, tried having an open relationship, all those different things. Well, let's talk about those quickly. Sure.

The polyamory scene. What went wrong? So I went to this thing called the World Polyamory Conference and I thought they'd talk about how you deal with multiple relationships and it was this very weird new age thing where they had something called a puja, P-U-J-A.

And they were just sort of in a, it was just the weirdest thing. I don't even know what, I don't, it was so confusing, but I was, they were kind of having this kind of group orgy, but it was all kind of new agey. And they were talking about priestesses. They didn't talk about your penis was your wand. The sacred cathedral was the woman.

What the fuck was this? It was just some weird, like it was some weird. I don't know that that would be the. That wasn wasn't the answer so representational of the polyamorous community i got kicked out of the orgy for eating popcorn i was eating popcorn they said you can't eat food in a temple you need to leave really and i got so i got kicked out of the orgy for eating popcorn and so that was my a blessing in disguise a blessing in disguise so then i decided i thought like you said i said well that's it's a part of the community, but it's not. It must be something else. And so I moved in with three girlfriends.

And I said, I'm going to live in a free, free love nirvana. Right? They're all non-monogamous. We're going to have this great life. And it totally blew up in my, obviously, anyone listening knows it blew up in my face. Little things that they didn't teach you at the conference, like who gets the front seat of the car. You literally have three people standing at the door and have to choose one. And I ended up literally sleeping on the couch almost every night alone. Now, when you were in the grips of your sex addiction,

we talked about dominant, submissive, and that stuff. Where did you end up in that world? I really like that. I think I looked at the kink community and watch some of that stuff um but i'm really like i like to be equals i don't like to be dominant or submissive it wasn't my thing and uh so okay so you tried the living with three girlfriends um now what was the you know was there more of an equality sense did you start to regain your respect for women or develop it yeah i think i don't think i ever had a

disrespect yeah like or or or or consciously but i think i always um that maybe sex was so important to me that i would do or say what i needed to to get it i think it was less true now but i think what it was what i learned in this it was a fear of love if somebody someone in the group became too attached with the pathological accommodation i try to make everybody happy and trying to make everybody happy i made nobody happy you know so this this person might get jealous this person might get upset so i just felt like i was walking on right like just eggshells around three people's feelings and what was the swinging situation if it wasn't lumpy in game what was it um the swing the swing situation i went that went to this amazing part like people were

just they were gorgeous. Like just insane. Oh, really? It was in Vegas. The party was called Bliss. Yeah. And probably the most like, all the most gorgeous people in Vegas were at this party. And I really talked to the guys about it.

Oh, and somebody gave me some GHB and I passed out in the middle of the first orgy. Like everything was a disaster, whatever I did. But what was interesting is I talked to the guys about why they would do it and so one guy or actually uh he's somehow a child actor ends up in every book that's like cory feldman was running the orgy or something he already in the wrong place yeah um so he said like the jealousy he's like i get high off the jealousy if i feel jealous that someone's having sex with my wife or girlfriend i'll just sort of work through it and turn it into pleasure.

So he got like high on the jealousy. Yeah, but that's a form of... Emotional masochism? Well, it's a form of submissive. Yeah. Yeah. And another guy said like, I just, I want male approval.

So I share my wife or girlfriend with these guys to get male approval. So I really kind of got into the... That's another submissive. Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting. Mm-hmm. But it just felt, it felt like very, almost more objectifying than the game world so i really kind of got into that's another submissive yeah yeah it's interesting um but it

just felt it felt like very almost more objectifying than the game world because everyone their wives were almost like this piece of property to be yeah but what was it like at home like what was it like over breakfast and after work that was kind of like the nice stuff is like the couples would like hang out afterward and they kind of were like you know a couple would be dating another couple they'd hang out it was not it was kind of intimate and cool actually what i liked about it in this case in this scene was that the couples were kind of intimate friends it's weird it seems like there's no way to avoid in those type of situations ultimately experiencing what you experience which was it takes a lot of energy to sort of maintain that lifestyle i don't see it

doesn't sound like it could ever be just matter of fact and like, yeah, this is what we do. I think, I mean, I think if you do anything enough, right,

there's this concept they call the burn-in period which is if you're going to do one of these alternative lifestyles, it takes a few years to get used to it. But after a while,

I guess anything can be this is what we do. So you move through all this stuff and I saw in the book that, you know, what did you learn

about alpha and beta and that kind of stuff? I mean, those are nonsense concepts. They are. I concepts they are i think they are but what would you find medically that was less than this oh i mean here's what i think i you know i always have these discussions as monogamy natural as all this i think honestly if you're basing your behavior on a scientific theory yeah then you're an idiot right because

i really would really i think i think you'll use science to justify stuff like well it's evolutionary okay to spread my seed. So thus I'm going to go have, you know, it's fucking like, I think evolutionary is such a slippery argument. You can use it to justify anything. It's so open-ended. By the way, one interesting thing is I talked to a geneticist. So I thought, you know what? Maybe I'm just not born to be monogamous.

And this guy found the gene, the gene responsible for monogamy. Right. And I guess it's a, it's a gene with a coating for a long vasopressin receptor if you want to drop some science sure that that that is why that uh creates kind of monogamy and so i thought maybe i just have the wrong size vasopressin receptor or whatever no test for that though there's no test but i went to him so i said listen am i just doomed or can i get a transplant or something yeah and he said he said i found that there's no behavior that's purely genetic like you the environment of course well that's how adaptation works exactly right so he kind of says you know you and we're making a choice you and our control

you're choosing to stay yeah as you are right choosing yeah to be to feel like right yeah i mean if everyone was the confined to their genetic behavior, everything would be dead. Right. The whole thing is nonsense. No evolution. Yeah. You have to make certain adjustments in order for the species to survive. Right. But we have the amazing power to rationalize any kind of behavior.

It's right. Now, I know you talk about your relationship with your mother, and I know at the beginning of the book, you begin a thread through the book about what you found out about your father. Do you want to talk about that, or do you want people to read the book, you know, you start to, you begin a thread through the book about what you found out about your father. Do you want to talk about that or do you want people to read the book? I mean, I'll talk about anything. I'm open to it. Oh, man. I'll see if I can say.

So, I guess like my father had like basically my mom and dad had a horrible relationship. I mean. But you knew that? I didn't know. As a child? I knew that. As a child, I always knew they had a horrible relationship. But what, yelling or screaming or what?

No, because, and my mom would come into my room and complain about my father and tell me, and again, I'm 11, 12, 13, tell me, no matter what you do, never grow up to make anyone as miserable as your father makes me. Oh my God. Why are you going to say that to a kid? It's sad, dude. It's so sad what parents do and not, not realizing it. Yeah.

In fact, I found a punishment that my parents gave me when I was a kid. I had to write, I am a dumb jerk over like 500 times. Like you're programming someone to think they're a dumb, you know, I mean all the self-esteem, nothing's a surprise. And what was the core of their problem? Oh, of their problem it's so fucked up it's weird so so my my dad i mean there's so many problems but the main thing my dad had a fetish for handicapped and amputee people with physical deformities that he kept secret and my mom has a limp and a physical deformity um and so she found out later,

she never knew this. In fact, to this day, he, they've never discussed it or are they married? They're married. They're still married. They,

that's why I love the movie bitter moon that I mentioned earlier, because it's two people staying together, keeping each other miserable. And, and so basically she was his, like she was his secret fetish object. Like he took videos of their honeymoon and like cut it together just with photos of her limping. And then he has some kind of group of friends or guys who he trades this stuff with.

Oh, my God. It's the weirdest shit. Yeah, so it's the skeletons in the closet. And I really thought until I found this stuff, I thought I had a normal family and a normal childhood. I wrote about the weird people, the mysteries in the game and the motley crews and it was kind of this moment i realized oh i'm just as fucked up as all those guys yeah and i didn't realize we're all just as fucked up as those guys we just don't see it because we're so used to living with ourselves yeah and and what did you what what did you experience

emotionally upon processing this or you know i think what it did for me was it caught me up with my mom. I kind of just got involved with her secrecy and we would investigate my dad together and she'd call and we'd trade this information

about it. When you were a kid? Yeah. Or recently? I think when I was a kid she'd just complain about my dad and say he met him. But when I found this

maybe about 17 or 18. So since then until I stopped it maybe three or four years ago, that was it. Like our relationship was investigating my dad and trying to figure this stuff out. And she'd say, well,

I found these new photos of him doing this. And we had this, just this. And he's just in the room. He's in the other room. He'd be, yeah. He'd be in the other room,

like oblivious. Yeah. And what's your relationship with that? She was always paranoid. He had cameras around the house filming. Oh my God. So sad, man. It's so sad was always paranoid. He had cameras around the house filming her. Oh, my God. So sad, man. So sad.

Like, I mean, that's why you have, ah. And it's also very defined, though. You know, it's not like, because then you step from just this emotional abuse to something that's tangible and bizarre. And then you bond with your mother over the bizarreness of the situation. But where do they stand now and where do you stand with them? Yeah, the weird, so this is the most fascinating thing happened

and I'd be curious to ask you this about your mom as well. So as I was doing this book, I set boundaries with my mom. I said, hey, I'm not going to keep secrets anymore. Like it really made me a cheating, you know, I'm not going to keep secrets anymore. I'm not going to talk to you about what's wrong with dad.

It's hurting my relationship. So no more of that. So she kind of got upset and then stopped talking to me for a while. And then she texted me and she said, oh, I've got this new secret email address. Don't tell anyone. And I wrote a book about your dad. Will you kind of help me with it? Oh my God.

And I said, and I got excited. She was talking to me again. So I'm like, oh sure. Yes. Great. Like a dutiful son. And then about a day later she said, when can we talk? And I realized, what the fuck am I doing?

You get caught up in it, man. Oh yeah. You've been deprived of it. And you're like, I want to read the book. Yeah. And so I texted her back. Hey, I'm happy to talk about anything, but I just can't keep secrets and have these conversations. And you know what she said back?

What? Nothing. Last time I heard from her. Oh shit. I i mean this is i shouldn't even say this was uh maybe like six months ago and literally i shouldn't even fucking say that but fuck it like we so we we i just had an eight month old and you're married i'm married yeah of an eight month old they have not come out to visit their only their only grandchild like their shit is stronger than wanting to see your only grandchild it's insane to me it's insane dude i'm

sorry yeah but i think but the night i mean the upside is the upside is all this let me know that okay that the stories i'm hearing in therapy these are true there's this behavior still happening and so that divorcing say divorcing my parents was what enabled me to actually become an adult and have an adult relationship so they so the upside is seeing the reality seeing what it really is that you're there to serve their needs they're not there for your needs can allow you to sort of divorce yourself from your parents and start to have your own life and and are you happy yeah but like like yeah like I'll just be changing in the bathroom with Ingrid.

I'll think, fuck, why was I resisting this shit for so long? So much happier than. Yeah. Yeah. I could have been. There's some sadness and some grieving over the loss of. The relationship with your parents. Yeah.

The horrible relationship. Right. Right. So what are you grieving anyway? Like if your friends treated you like that, you'd be like good riddance. Right. They made you. Right.

They made you mentally and they made made you right they made you mentally and they made you emotionally they made you physically but so you're trapped yeah yeah or but you don't have to be true that gets you yeah yeah you know i'm keeping this diary for my son yeah of everything that i feel like what i'm doing right or wrong all their decisions about parenting so when he grows up he can know maybe what his emotional dna is and make of it what he will it's interesting man and it beautiful. It's a beautiful story. So you do the work that you need to do day to day to nurture and be emotionally upfront and honest

with your monogamous relationship. Yes, and also being aware of when you're getting stuck in your story. Like, simple thing. She texted me. I was coming home. I was 15 minutes late. I was at the working out 15 minutes late.

It was a film crew waiting in the house to film me for something. And she said, they've been waiting here for 15 minutes. That's so rude. Yeah. And I texted her back saying I'm coming. She's,

and she responded just so rude. So I thought, fuck her. She's like my mom nagging. She hates me. Like she hates my dad. Leave me the fuck alone. Can I live my own life? And then like, i'm like wait wait wait wait wait wait what's going on here like how many times did you say nice things to you over the week and how many times you said negative things like if so you expect someone to love you you be always

be positive about you're insane right yeah you're they they don't have to like everything about you so i thought that and then i thought um let me ask you myself a question if you have an appointment with the film crew and you go to work out, you leave all those people waiting at your house for 15 minutes while you go to the gym, is that rude? I'm like, yes, of course it's rude. So I responded to her like, yes, it is rude. And she said, oh, you know, she responded, say, sorry, I was just stressed out. And we got to have a relationship instead of me starting to think she's naggy, resentful. I need my freedom. I just thought- Making a monster with misperception. Exactly.

Getting out of your own story. Yeah. Interesting. Well, this is great, man. And it sounds like a real fucking emotional, cathartic and courageous journey you took with this thing. It was the best journey of my life. And now I can actually stop the cycle and be a better parent than the ones you and

I may have had. Congratulations. Thank you, man. And I'm excited for you, Neil. It was great talking to you. Cool. We covered a lot. It's great.

So wait, what, wait, what, what do you have? So before we came over, I looked at the interview i did with you maybe 20 years ago really you were um 33 really yeah so how old what are you i'm 52 i just turned 50 so yeah almost 20 years ago and i looked over because i wanted to think well you know were there clues here that you'd be doing what you're doing now really yeah and then we have that yeah i have that i kind of wrote down some of those quotes when i was like at luna or when you were at luna and we're talking about the luna scene and by the way and i wrote some of the stuff you said made like you were really cerebral maybe stoned yeah uh because some of the stuff made no sense but i wrote down some quotes oh i

want to hear it makes sense oh come on this is crazy yeah so um let's see all right, so the first thing, and this is kind of you said, if narcissism were a political movement, we would be unstoppable, which I thought was funny. That was a bit. That was a bit. Yeah. Then you lambasted the idea of Dennis. I don't know. I wrote this lambasted the idea of Dennis Miller and references implying wisdom. I have no idea what that is. I do.

Yeah. And so here's another thing. These are more where you were. Fake intellectualism. Like Chris Kelly's dad dad sean kelly who was a writer for the national lampoon who i'd met who i'd met briefly and we were talking about comedy and he said dennis miller fearlessly attacking trivia right right right so funny still still yeah um and then here's another thing i just thought was funny of where you were you wrote i'm here reading wilhelm reich and listening to the Verve collection. And I'm going to have to talk to people who worked as a temp all day. And about some of the stuff you said, part of the Luna trip is people embracing their

marginal existence or how they use their free time and indulging their liberty. And then you said, it's hard to take into consideration what liberty really is. And we had this long interview and I could almost only have like one quote I could use because it was really- I was out there? Abstract. Yeah. Here's one one that you said and then we'll get to the stuff that I think let's yeah that is similar what you do now this one I want I actually wrote WTF next to it okay ironically let me see if I can explain okay it's hard to do comedy that makes an impact discussions of morality evaporate we're evolving into perfect consumers and history is a pool of

references in that context it's impossible to speak in a human voice. Well, that makes sense to me that what I was reacting to was that everything on the internet and everything that's coming at you no longer has a historical content. So there is no narrative of time. historical content. So there is no narrative of time. You're just dealing with bits and pieces, which I think is, I'm not going to say prophetic, but it is what content is and what content implies. And that, you know, as perfect consumers, you know, content is what we consume and it is all anyone talks about. Content. Yeah. So I think that was sort of me reacting to the fact that, that there was no historical narrative to anything anymore. And it was breaking down.

And that is pretty prophetic because that's exactly what's happening now. So I think what I was experiencing is that, you know, if you don't have some foundation in either a personal history or point of references that sort of define you or your outlook, how do you talk like humans? That makes sense. Yeah. I still think about these. That's amazing. Cause I was wondering if you know what you were, you had said.

So this is what it was interesting is what you liked about Luna was the type of intimacy makes it interesting for you. So, which is kind of what you have now. And you liked it cause it was more like having a real conversation. Right here, which, which you were attracted to.

And you said, I'd like to have the opportunity to have more of those yeah um interesting yeah isn't it great and then you said um uh let's see oh uh taking the freedom to indulge having that freedom it seemed like you wanted the freedom to indulge to have on stage yeah yeah yeah to like the thing that luna gave me was that you know because i would force myself not to construct material but to work through ideas that i was thinking about like that idea of uh of uh of um perfect consumers and whatnot because i was very hung up on that because i at that time i was putting a lot of stuff into my brain that was sort of um you know post-modern theory and and stuff like that and

trying to process it through my own emotions so yeah the freedom to just you know be in the present and talk about now was very important to me i wanted to be emotionally available in a very real and present way as a performer doing comedy right which is sort of antithetical to that and only there's only been a couple of guys that did that you know prior was probably might be the only one right where you really felt that this was an emotionally risky undertaking for this guy and that that his sense of of that you know what i got from him was really what i aspire to over being an entertainer was the ability to, to live it,

to have it be a, a, a kind of a life or death situation up there. Yeah. It's funny. Cause you, you, and you mentioned that it's fascinating,

the kind of threads, cause we talked about prior in that. Yeah. And, and, and, and that. So I have some consistency.

You have some consistency. And, you know, I was thinking, I was thinking, and maybe it's the critical, the psychoanalysis stuff. I was thinking like you know the lauren michaels stuff that's gone on here and i was thinking there's some point where you're maybe making i'm not sure

making him your dad and like there was this rejection that needs to be i just why just it just did the interview right yeah i heard that because it made me maybe think about i felt i felt he was evasive on the question he started talking about how like uh he was talking about- Why he didn't give me the job? Yeah, first he talked about like how network TV was like the railroad of what the fuck does that have to do with the question? Right. And then, oh no, you would have been new

and I was trying to protect you from that new thing. Like that was, I felt like that was- Well, he did his best to try to be my dad as best he could in that moment. Right. And not hurt my feelings too much. I did get a lot of closure, but I had it a bit before going in.

I made it very large, but I did feel that he showed up for me. Right. And, but you know, what's great, what I love. And again, this might like, there, there are these moments that are really impactful in your life. Yeah. Uh, and somebody, I heard one person listen, he said, oh, it's so narcissistic. He's talking about himself.

I'm like, no, if you talk to someone, why would you not ask if they remembered? Why not ask Keith Richards? If you remembered you, that's really what you want to ask. Sure. Or to ask Lorne Michaels what he remembered about this moment. Yeah. So, like, why not ask that and get some resolution? That's actually not narcissistic.

Yeah. That is saying, you know, I didn't make it about me. Right. I just was looking for a point of connection. Right. And the great thing is now they remember. Even if they forgot then, now it's become an impactful moment in their life. You made it exist.

Oh, well, I'm glad that I was true to myself. To me, hearing that stuff, like, you know, some of that stuff was raw and clearly I was trying to resolve some things intellectually, but I seem to be pretty true to myself. Yeah, it's really, it's funny. I'll read one more.

I'll see if there's anything I just wrote. Oh, it was a hard lesson to learn that alternative comedy, I guess, doesn't work on a big stage. That what you're talking about i do bits and personal stories they're hard to do on tv people need closure if you expose yourself people don't know where to laugh uh how do you get closure in a spot that's personal that's true um and again i think that's kind of that was a that was an ongoing thing um but it was it did become sort of uh you know as i got older and more adept at the craft of comedy you know that was really uh resolved by an application of craft right right

but it's but it's fascinating because i think all those things he wanted the freedom to express not to worry about where people are laughing to take emotional risks is what you're doing here probably why it's done what it's done oh fuck it fuck. It's so nice to hear that, Neil. It's so nice to know that I did know what I wanted. Yeah, you weren't as dumb and naive and bitter as you thought. Well, thanks for sharing that. Thanks. That was my talk with Neil Strauss.

I thought it was pretty intense, but there's a lot of information in that book. Some of it is frightening information, but he did his homework. So if you're interested in that stuff, The Truth, an uncomfortable book about relationships, is available now. What else? My name's Mark. I have a website, wtfpod.com. You can go there, pick up some justcoffee.coop. You can get some T-shirts, I think.

You can maybe get a poster. You can get on the mailing list. You can check the episode guide to see who's been on this show and perhaps move your way over to howl.fm for the archives. You know, that stuff. And New Year's coming. I'll talk to you in the New Year if you don't listen to the New Year's Eve broadcast.

The New Year's Eve day broadcast. We're going to have a nice not a full hour with me and Bill Burr, but a nice chunk of me and Bill Burr and then I think we're going to do some highlights. Doing them year-end highlights things. That'll be fun, right?

Oh. Boomer lives! Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis

producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations. How a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category. And what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton.

The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5pm in Rock City at torontorock.com.