WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 673 - Crispin Glover

Episode Date: January 18, 2016

Crispin Glover knows you might think he’s crazy. As he tells Marc, he sees madness as being good for art. They talk about what that perception has meant for his acting career, including the lawsuit that stemmed from Back to the Future, and the roles he’s taken in big budget movies like Charlie’s Angels. Crispin also talks about the final installment in his own soon-to-be-completed trilogy of films. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category.

And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talked to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Lock the gates! all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the

fucking ears what the fucksters what's happening i'm mark maron uh this is wtf This is my podcast. Welcome to it. New people, don't hesitate to go to WTFpod.com slash guide to see who's been on the show. And then you can move from there. You can see the entire list of however many 600 and something episodes, and then you can act accordingly and go find them. You can listen to the most recent 50 anywhere you need to for free, or you can go to howl.fm to get the archive going all the way back. All 600 and some odd ones. But if you just need to know who's been on, go to wtfpod.com slash guide. Check it out. A lot of people. A lot of people have been in here, in this garage. And that wasn't even really an ad. It just came to my mind thinking about it. Today we have Crispin Glover on.

Crispin Glover. I don't know how it happened, but man, he came over. And he's like a brilliant freight train of compulsive ideas and philosophy and psychology. I didn't know what was going to happen going in, but I knew I wanted to talk to him. He's an interesting guy. He, he,

he, he rolls in an interesting world. I think sometimes it's mostly in his head, but that's fine. I can certainly relate to that. So that's happening in a few minutes. I have a nice lengthy conversation with with with crispin glover he showed me a trailer of his film he's working on with his dad is in it and

he's in it and he was just all lit up and he came in and he's like you want to see this you want to have my he pulled his computer out he showed me this new trailer he had just uh edited he's also in a in a movie which i think is is how we got him or how he came up on the radar he's currently in a movie called amy in a cage which is available now streaming and on demand but uh he does a lot of things he wears a lot of hats and and many of them are gothic styled uh he's he's into the old timey darkness and it was good so so that's happening today me and crispin glover but the reason i bring up you know like the past person maybe is it the past looking back on on how many people have been on this show and how many people have been in this garage and how many people have been in this garage

it's sort of fascinating but between you and me I don't always clean in here I just, I don't you know, I stack things things come in, a lot of things come in but I don't always you know, I tidy up

occasionally I'll do the vacuum and I'll wipe the floors down but I'm about to start shooting the fourth season of Marin for IFC. And I'm spinning out a little bit. So what do I do when I get stressed or anxious or frightened? Well, one of the things that I do if I'm so driven, which is not all that often, is to fucking clean up. Like I've gotten into this situation here at the house where so many wonderful things are sent to me. A lot of artwork, a lot of records, books.

Some of them are sent personally, some by publishers. Stuff gets stacked up, you know, and I got a lot of stuff in here. stuff gets stacked up you know and i got a lot of stuff in here and what i neglected to realize i kind of realized it but maybe i was in denial about it is the amount of fucking dust dude and dudettes the amount of dust i mean i've had if if most if most dust is human skin, if that's a truism, I have the skin of about 670 relatively some very famous people covering my garage. My garage is covered with probably about, or it was, about a millimeter of many different skins. That sounds a little weird and gross, but it's got to be true. Now, the thing is, is out here, I'm in a garage and I've got it, you know, capped up the best I can. I put, well, it's not great.

You know, I put a floor in here. I didn't really do it right. These are platform floors, definitely holes in it. So, also, there's all these little Spidey webs up in the corners and around in the bookshelves. There were Spidey webs everywhere. I don't see that many Spideys, but there's Spidey webs and they're not attractive. They're just not attractive. And I just kept putting it off, man. I kept putting it off. And finally, you know, consumed by stress and a need for distraction, I got in it out here. I got in it on my knees with the deep clean. I moved the shit out, not all the books and stuff,

but anything that wasn't sort of really heavy, I moved it outside to assess. So it's been an intense few days of stress cleaning, but the dust, man, the dust was fucking insane so i'm like meticulously cleaning and uh you know by the time i finish new dust will start uh piling up but it got to the point in here where i was like is word out is word out that there that there's spidey webs in the garage because what what started to happen is that you know know, six years ago, whenever the hell I started this thing and started amassing stuff and started moving my operation out here into the garage, it had sort of, you know, kind of a pseudo intellectual man cave vibe to it. It was a collection and still is of everything for my entire life. So that was kind of cool at first. And it still is kind of cool to me.

I'm still comforted by it. But if you don't clean it, what happens is if people look closely, it's like going into one of those. It's like going into a sad museum, like a roadside museum that isn't really kept up well. And the exhibits are kind of gross and they're a little dusty. And some of the dust has kind of been humidified a bit. So there's grime. So I was walking in my garage saying, this is pretty cool. And then I'd look around, and I'm like, oh, no. No, it looks sad.

It looks like it's sort of dying, like it's becoming a relic, like it's becoming just some sort of tomb or mausoleum of what I thought was important or what represented me and was not being kept up that well. So I kind of got paranoid. I'm like, I'd like people to walk in here and be like, oh, this is kind of cool. Not like, I don't know what you got going over there,

but it's a little sad. So needless to say, I've cleaned it up. And now it's alive again. I've been watching some of my screener movies. And here's what I know. Is that I've watched The Revenant once. And then I went back and went through it to watch certain scenes again. And again.

That DiCaprio is impressing me. Not that that's anything, you know. Like, you know, it's hard. You kind of want to judge people, but, like, I've seen him in public and talking. He's definitely got shit together, that guy. And he did a great job in that fucking movie. And he should come over and talk to me. Also, I don't know what you guys are thinking, but that joy david o russell's movie is a sweet movie you know i had a hard time with american hustle but i had to watch

it three or four times to understand that they're that he's working within a tone that i've never quite seen before and it took me a while to get the handle on and enjoy it's it's again there's a tone to it there's a there's sort of like there's something beautifully human muting the pain in this movie it's certainly an entertaining movie as was american hustle and that there there's some weird thing he's doing where he's meeting his own artistic needs and creativity but also you know kind of appealing to a mainstream audience and he was doing this with the fighter and also with uh silver linings playbook and in i just didn't understand the trailer for joy it made it look like i don't know what it made it look like but it was not the movie that i saw and i enjoyed the

movie hateful eight i liked it and uh you know people should fucking relax tarantino's a fucking wizard and it's a comedy if you don't think that those characters are fucking clowns you're out of your mind and all that blood and all that gore and just the beautiful lyricism of the talking. It's pretty hilarious and pretty exciting. I think now we should talk to Crispin Glover. And, you know, strap in. You know, he operates at a level of intensity that is not your day-to-day level of intensity. But I think through the conversation, I think a lot of people judge Crispin and they've decided he's nuts or whatever.

But what I found is that he's a guy with a specific vision about what he wants to put in the world creatively. And we get there, I think. So enjoy this conversation, if you want, with Crispin Glover. You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get an ice rink on Uber Eats. But iced tea and ice cream? Yes, we can deliver that.

Uber Eats. Get almost, almost anything. Order now. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a Thank you. regulated category and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Your father had a profound impact on me when I was younger.

Oh yeah? How? I'm sure he had a profound impact on me when I was younger. Oh, yeah? How? I'm sure he had a profound impact on me as well. I would think so. He was in... What's his full name? Bruce... He was given the name Bruce Herbert Glover. Yes.

And my whole name is Crispin Hellion Glover. And he didn't like his middle name Herbert. Yeah. So as a struggling actor, he would say in New York, he would say to himself, I'm Bruce H. Glover, I'm Bruce Hellion Glover, I'm a troublemaker. And it made him feel good as a struggling actor. But they gave him your, they gave him you that, they gave you that name. Yeah, my mother, he told my mother that was his real middle name.

And so then when they were married she saw bruce herbert glover she thought who am i marrying but they gave it to me as my real middle name oh that was it you were destined i guess it was a good they gave me a good name yeah he but the reason why he haunted me was he was in uh diamonds are forever yes which i saw when i was very young i imagine i can't remember when it came out, but it must have been the early 70s. Right, so I was nine. Before, 74, yeah.

So I was 11. Yeah. And there was just something insidious about those two, about your father and the other guy. Yeah, right. And I remember, I don't think I've seen that movie in decades,

and I remember one of them, they put a bomb in his pants. Right. And threw him over. That's my father, yeah. yeah they threw him over the side of the boat right but your father in acting was so bizarre and his his tone and his demeanor was so fucking bizarre that it haunted me good i'm sure he would be happy to hear would he and he? And he was also in Chinatown, not in a haunting role. And I was on the set of both of those films briefly, which I'm very happy to say.

Do you remember? Yeah, very well. I'm sure you met Sean Connery. I did, actually. Yeah, briefly, yeah. And Jack Nicholson. Well, I have met Jack Nicholson, but that was later on. I met Roman Polanski.

My father and Roman Polanski were friendly, and they'd play chess together. Really? I was there on the day that they shot the final scene in Chinatown, but I wasn't there while they were shooting. So your dad only brought you the bloody horrible parts at the end. No, no, no. I didn't always go on the sets. But yeah, but your father was this

this bizarre presence yeah and you were look exactly like him almost well we it's close enough so like you said in this this new movie that i'm i'm editing right now uh we we play the same characters at different ages uh-huh yeah it was interesting what you said when i had that reaction to um to the small amount of what I watched of Amy in a Cage. And you said, well I'm sure you could cite influences, but he's trying to do something that is sort of utterly unique in a way. It is actually unique. He did something interesting. He'd never made a movie before

and I wasn't exactly certain what it would be like that I I appreciate I want to work with him again I just got a script today really from him and I I really like him I but it it seems to me that it's something that you know you do as well that at some point your your creativity and your and your style of living and your imagination seemed to kind of persist against anything that was accepted or understandable well that too much at the beginning well no no i mean i i uh it's an interesting way to think about it. I don't know that I initially have set out to do that,

but it might be interpretable that way. Because I remember at some point, I'd like to talk about growing up in this weird cesspool of a show business town. And I also noticed in the trailer you just showed that there was a recurring symbol of the illuminated eye on the watch right which is I guess it can be attributed to to Egyptians to the Illuminati to Crowley that you know where did you pick that eye up I mean might as well start there. I have, this is my third feature that I've, well, I'm in the midst of editing now.

But the first film I made, which I started shooting in 1996, called What Is It? Actually, I should also say I'll be at the Egyptian Theater here in Los Angeles. I think it's March 18th and 19th at American Cinematheque. And I've been touring for the past 11 years now with my shows and films. I perform a live show. What does that entail? Well, actually, I have two different live shows.

I've been interested to talk to you about it because, well, I know that you tour as a comedian. And I'm not a comedian. Right. But there is something of humor within the shows. Sure. And I tour. So I relate very much.

I've been watching a lot of comedians recently on YouTube, and I'm very interested. I don't know. There's something I'm very interested in about that. Like who are you watching? Well, I was listening to the I don't know. There's something I'm very interested in about that. Like who are you watching? Well, I was listening to the Louis C.K. thing because your interview with him because I was studying him.

I had dismissed George Carlin for most of my existence until about, I don't know, three years ago. Oh, yeah? And it wasn't that I disliked him. I had heard the, I don't know, like when I was, I don't know, three years ago. Oh, yeah? And it wasn't that I disliked him. I had heard the, when, I don't know, you know, like when I was, I don't know, when it came out, 11, 12, whatever.

Seven words. The seven words. And I liked it. I thought it was intelligent and funny. And you're a kid, so it's like exciting. You're right, right, right. But somehow I mixed him up. It sounds kind of weird with like Gallagher.

And I kind of thought he was like a guy who... It's a bad mix-up. It is. It's a very bad mix-up. Yeah. But I thought of him as like a hippie humorist that did puns or something. And I just kind of thought that's not interesting. So what brought you back around?

I was watching on YouTube an interview. I thought he had just died a few years before. And I thought, well, okay, there's an interview. It was like American greats on television. And I thought, well, this guy lived his life and I'll see what his interview is. And I was, why? I thought this guy is incredibly intelligent and funny.

And then I watched everything. Where did the melon thing come from? Why was he smashing melons? Well, I wasn't that mixed up. Right. But I kind of thought

they were similar. Right. Oh, I get it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I didn't think

they were the same person. I just thought something similar. So then you got into Carlin? Yeah. I mean, early on, like, when I was studying acting, I started going through professional acting class when I was, what, 15. After you'd already done some work?

Yes. Yeah. I got an agent when I was 13 years old. How did that happen? Were your parents into it? Were your parents together out here? Yes, my parents are still married. Really? Yeah, yeah. That's amazing. Unusual, yeah. Do you have siblings? I was raised as an only child. And so I

had seen my mother retired as a dancer and actress when I was born. So I saw essentially how the business had worked. And I originally, the first thing I was interested in, I knew I had to get a job. I was raised middle class, and I knew I'd have to move out and make money.

I was aware of it. But acting, you were raised in the world. Well, I didn't know initially that acting would be it. I initially was- Your father was an actor. He was an actor. But I was initially thinking I would be a geologist. I thought I liked, but my concept, this was like at age nine or something. And so my concept was I'd have a pick and I would break open geodes and find beautiful crystalline interiors. Mysterious, amazing things in rocks. Right.

Yeah. And then I realized they'd probably have to work for a geothermal corporation. At 11, you realized that there was a geothermal corporation? Yes. And that it probably wouldn't be that much fun. Yeah. And so I recognized that acting actually was a pretty good business i was starting around age 11 or so and then i uh it wasn't until i was 13 there was a kid at school who was at the

mary grady agency and he had done some commercials and i i recognized that i could you know yeah get some commercials or be on TV or something. And you did some sitcoms, didn't you? You did some cute stuff? I did. Well, I did some commercials. I did my very first job, which I got from a cattle call. It was at the Dorothy Chandler Pavilion in downtown LA for The Sound of Music.

And Maria was played by Florence Henderson. So I got that. And then, and then I, I did, I did, I think one of them on shop kids. Yeah. I was Friedrich von Traub. And, uh, and then I, uh, I did that for six months and then I, uh, I, I got a commercial after that. And then I did, when i was 16 i i started studying professionally when i was 15 and when i was 16 i uh went in a another cattle call for a sitcom uh which involved an improvisation and i did an improvisation for that and i i got uh essentially the lead part in this uh television show called uh pilot called the best of times which is i i still can't watch it it was uh embarrassing and i and i i mean actually i

like the improv that i did but i i but did it ever did it didn't get made or no no no it was it's and it's out there on youtube somewhere but But, but it didn't become a series? No, no. So you lucked out in a way? Yeah, yeah. No. And I learned a lot from it. Why can't you watch it now? Is it just, oh, it makes me uncomfortable. I still can't watch. But, but it was like, at that point I had not figured out how to take that, which was written on the page. And I played what was written on the page and i played what was written on the page sure the improvisation they wrote into the script and that was basically okay but there were other things that i just played the page and it's just it's it's uncomfortable well it's it's weird because you know doing some television writing some television is that and i know this even in writing it is that

you know where that thought and that idea is going to end. I mean, it's one thing doing theater and whatnot when you're doing the work of geniuses in terms of doing lines. Sure, of course. But sometimes what an actor has to bring emotionally and to make something actually present and somewhat believable, engaging, is quite a task. Absolutely. That's the task, is to take the thing which is on the page

and then to give it depth. Right, but sitcoms notoriously, a lot of times, the depth you're looking for is not on the page. That's correct. That's correct. And it is the job of an actor. I find that's the most thing that I have to concentrate on when I'm acting in somebody else's screenplay. And who'd you study with at that age?

I was at a place called Staircase Studios, which was, it's no longer there. It was on Beverly, it was on uh, no, on Fairfax and Olympic. And it had a, it was a great, it was a great, uh, little place. And I, I studied there straight for three years, improvisation with technique as opposed to improvisation, uh, through with comedy. And then, although it was something that I saw that good work, whether it was dramatic or whatever, it tended toward having humor within it. And then at 18, I simultaneously started studying at a place which is more well-known called the Loft Studios. Yeah. With Peggy Fury and Bill Traylor, husband and wife. And a lot of well-known actors studied there.

Who was in your crew when you were a kid? People we know? Well, people that studied at that, there were... Sean Penn had studied there before I was there, but while I was there, Nicolas Cage was there, Eric Stoltz was there,

Chris Penn was there. Really? And you were all like under 20? Yes. Yeah, I was there. Chris Penn was there. Really? And you were all like under 20? Yes. Yeah, I was 18 when I started. And that's really, I guess, your generation and my generation of actors when you think about it, huh? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I recently worked with Eric Stoltz. Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah. He had played my brother in a Bayer Aspirin commercial when I was 16. And then he played my, well, originally started to play my son in Back to the Future. And then he was fired and he was replaced with Michael J. Fox. That's sort of a big deal.

I don't remember who I was talking to about that. I don't know if it was him or what, but that was like he was hired, correct? We shot for five or six weeks with him. Oh, my God. I had shot most of my role by the time. Michael came in? Yeah. And then I had to reshoot it.

Sort of devastating in a way. It was. I'm writing a book right now. Oh, yeah? Good. I'm on page 300, and it's not just about that, but I'm writing about things having to do with that and a lot of other things that are very important.

I was in terms of... Sounds like you're writing volume one of a many-book series. Anything's possible. I mean, I've been saving interviews. I do my interviews by email usually when I tour with my shows. And so more than 10 years of written interviews, I have, I think, I'm forgetting what it is. It's like 3,000 pages of interviews that I've done. But it's like I'll copy and paste the essential portions.

And so I've got, I thought initially I would just start cutting down stuff from those interviews, but there's a very specific subject matter that I'm honing in on. Which is? Well,

it has to do with propaganda. And it's a subject matter that I'm somewhat passionate about. And how do you define it? Well, the kind of propaganda that I'm specifically reacting to is corporate interest propaganda, which is really devastating on the culture right now. And I'm very happy. My first film, What Is It?, is a strong reaction to this. To the brainwashing. Well, yes.

Yes. How does the events of Back to the Future play into this as a foundation? Well, I knew this would happen when I came in here, which is, no, I don't mean about Back to the Future. But I mean, what I've recognized, and part of why I'm writing this book right now, is because I've been very hesitant to talk in great detail

about several important things that people always ask me about. And it's because on some level, this would be the kind of show that would be right for me to go into those details about. But there's a can of worms that starts to open that if I, like I said, I'm on page 300 of this book. Yeah, yeah. And it's like I could talk to you in great detail about it. And it would be far beyond the time that would be in the constraints of the show. Well, what I got like right away, you know, for like something just, you know, popped in my head, you know, having the conversation in the order we've had it.

That, you know, we we go from you know this this sidebar which is the eric stoltz story and then you know and then you say well it's part of my my book which is with some urgency and then you say which is also which is about that and more important things is that like you know what immediately popped into my head you know when you when you hinted at propaganda whatnot is i've had this thing in my mind lately about you know what what are our own thoughts you know what is what really constitutes the culture cultural reality that we live in yeah and uh and then when you said propaganda i thought you know movie companies i thought the the the spielberg vision yeah uh and also zemeckis and

you know whoever and and then i went back to thinking about the original uh you know the original uh jewish studio owners who constructed uh a a film life for america and in their inability to be accepted into america they built the the illusion of America, which became the reality of America, which sort of is the foundation of film's power over our cultural reality. I've seen, you know, there's that book that came out that they were talking about that stuff a lot. There's a subseveral book.

What is it? Fuck. Right. I love that book. Neil Gabriel, I think. I know things about it, and I think I saw they made a documentary on it. I haven I love that book. Neil Gabriel, I think. I know things about it, and I think I saw they made a documentary on it. I haven't read the book.

But there's something that's what I'm writing about is different from that. Right. Because it's, I just, the thing that I'm very happy that's starting to happen, which I, when I started touring 10 years ago my my film what is it is a very specific reaction to this you get good audiences yeah i mean i've i've recouped on my films okay and uh all over the world yeah yeah i've been i mean i mostly have toured in the united states and canada but i've been in europe i've been in j Japan, I've been in Australia, I've been in... Okay, so now we come back to where we are and we can build up to where you want to go,

which is that we started... You're studying Carlin for comedic elements and you talked about training and improvisation and this had something to do with your performances. Oh, well, George Carlin, I only looked at more recently, probably more influential to me personally would be Andy Kaufman, which I saw when I was studying improvisation with technique. That episode on Fridays when it was 1980 and you can tell he goes off script. Do you know the episode I'm talking about? I think so, yeah. It's on YouTube. And Michael Richards is in the skit.

And Fridays was very drug-oriented. And at that time, people would laugh about these things. And there was like an announcer introducing, saying, when people are going into the bathroom, they're actually taking some kind of drug. And the audience kind of cheers. Yeah, yeah. So each of the, like I think one of the, it's two couples in a French restaurant and one of the wives or girlfriends goes out over and she goes into the bathroom. The audience kind of cheers and they're having small talk at the table. Then Andy Kaufman gets up and he goes to the bathroom and comes back and the audience is kind of cheering.

He sits down and he obviously has a line. Yeah. And he kind of says, I can't. I can't. I can't. And then one of the actors, the actress,

it seems like she probably has the reaction line, and he hasn't given the cue. And she starts going, ah, kind of force, repeating a forced laughter. She doesn't know what to do. She doesn't start prompting him. She just kind of laughs. And it's live, I think, right? I believe it was.

Yeah. I mean, I saw it because I was very interested in watching it at the time. And I was studying improvisation at the time. So I could tell I liked it because I could tell the improvisation. He was actually making it a real improv. He was making it so nobody knew what to do. And I found that really funny. And compelling.

And compelling. Yeah. And then eventually michael richards goes off camera he picks up a stack of cue cards and throws them down on the table and then andy kaufman i think throws a glass of water in his face yeah and and then you know they go to to to commercial so so rich Richards probably did that out of anger. Yes. It feels like that.

Do your job. Yes, exactly. And what about that was so amazing to you? Well, I could tell that it wasn't. Scripted. I could tell that it was something genuine was happening. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was much more fascinating than what the actual scripted or cue carded skit was.

And as studying acting, that was fascinating to me. Now, when you did your early film work, was this something that was sort of gnawing at you? This desire to have more freedom as an actor well i i mean i was i was taught very clearly even though i was taught improvisation with technique i was taught not to go off script and i generally don't as an actor actually the hurray jackson jackson movie the the the one they're the ones that contacted you. Amy in the Cage. Amy in the Cage. When I first talked to him, he told me he wanted to have me improvise, which is not, I've done very little of it in my career,

and yet it's how I initially studied, learned to act. I mean, of course, my father's an actor, and he's an acting teacher. I never formally studied with my father. I i'm sure i perked things up obviously but you've always gotten along with him and he's been supportive and oh yeah my parents when i said that i uh was interested in it they my father was he was actually surprised because he wasn't ever like super famous or super wealthy or anything so he was pleased that i actually you know there was struggle you know and so he was pleased that i actually thought there was something that seemed okay about oh right oh he was like on a respect level that he liked what he did well i think just

that he thought that it would it was a seemed like a business that was okay. Probably, I don't think he put it this way, but probably something that he felt, yeah, that it was a compliment on some level. Sure. And then my mother was helpful and would bring me to auditions. So yeah, that was a very good thing that my parents were supportive. But I'll tell you. And then also that they didn't push me into it

because I've seen people that uh you know were children actors and stuff and it can really mess people up and luckily you know 13 is actually an old age for a child actor but it was a very good age to start for a young actor right and it's what's an adult actor what's amazing to me is just how you know profoundly memorable you know you are in almost everything you appear in and that and that even with you know scripts or whatever that you seem to find a frequency at which these characters operate at that is very visceral and and and disconcerting good good like i mean even in back to future which is this huge mainstream movie i you made me uncomfortable you know i have not seen the film since uh it came out uh-huh i don't

i don't know if anything's possible i i suppose that's interesting i haven't heard that particular take on it i mean i'm well i haven't seen it in a while either but my recollection is you were an uncomfortable character weren't you? I think the character was for the most part uncomfortable at the end there's a change

in the character and it becomes comfortable which there was some questions that I had about what the why the character became comfortable. And I, I had, I had not been given the screenplay before I auditioned with a side, you know, so just a single scene. And it was right around that time, this was 1984, when they were just, they didn't want to give the script out for worries that it would give ideas away. And I was 20 years old. I was glad to get the part in a Steven Spielberg Universal Studios big movie. And my agent, I thought, well, I asked my agent, you know, this seems like a good part.

There was another character in the scene. Should I audition for this part as well? He said, no, no, you don't understand. The character plays like an older version of itself. It goes back and forth over time. I said, wow, that sounds amazing. Great, yeah, get the deal done. So I didn't read it until I was already contracted to be in it.

And being that I had studied basically the Stanislavskian type of psychological understanding of the character, I had to ask questions to understand why things were or how I was supposed to be. why things were or how I was supposed to be. And a lot of the questions that I asked, there was an ending that I had, it affected what my character was wearing and how the character was being. And it was before Eric Stoltz got fired

that I had very, a strong conversation with Robert Zemeckis. And I felt that there was a a moral in it that that was because there was a reward with money that it ended up being that money equaled happiness and uh i i didn't use the word propaganda but i said people are sheep and if our characters get a financial reward in this a monetary reward it will mean

that money equals happiness and he got he did not like that and the weird thing is I've talked about this before you're reading too much into it kid and people will say that but but the fact of it is i had to get i had to figure out what what how i was going to play it and what it

was going to mean when i was playing this thing right and and i mean ultimately i had a good relationship with robert zemeckis and i ended up working with him later in Beowulf. I wasn't in the sequels. There was a lawsuit about they had put prosthetics on another actor to make him up to look like me from the original molds that were made of my face from the... Really? Yeah, yeah.

Why'd they cut you out? Well, that's the problem is they didn't. We didn't come to somebody. Your face? They put my face on another actor. It's funny if it isn't you. I know. I know.

It's disturbing, but it sounds very sort of relevant to you know the things that you're interested in i just watched a trailer that you did that involves several very realistic looking masks i'm wondering how much that reality of that may have informed some of your aggression and creativity probably so there was a lawsuit about and because of my my lawsuit the rules in the screen actors guild that make it so this kind of thing can ever happen again. But it puts me in a very rare category to be the only actor to have had this specific crime committed. Your face was stolen.

Yes, quite literally. They had the molds of my face from the original film, and they applied my features onto another actor in order to fool audiences into believing I was in the sequel, which many people still to this day believe it was me, and it was another actor playing me. Do you know that guy? I've never met him in person. He was a part of, he ended up being a witness in the lawsuit.

Against you or for you? For me. And so I had a conversation with him. Did you win the lawsuit? Well, like I said, because I have to be careful about how I phrase it. But because of the lawsuit, there are rules on the screen. It was settled with mutual satisfaction. And there was a precedent set for it.

Yes. Yeah, there are legal precedents. They can't do it anymore. That's correct. Yeah. I mean, technically, it was always illegal what they did was totally illegal wow uh stole your face yeah i mean it's uh bizarre it is bizarre it's bizarre and was there uh do you know why they didn't just cast you well Well, they were mad at me.

Right. Because I'd ask questions. They're like, he's difficult to work with. Yes. I mean, the weird thing was, I wasn't really difficult. I mean, anybody can make that argument. You're an intense fellow. Maybe.

I guess. I don't feel like that, but I suppose so. People who are intense and intelligent make people in charge uncomfortable. It can be that. It shouldn't be that way. No, that's right. It shouldn't be that way. That's right.

That's right. And that's where it comes to the corporate problem. corporate problem because because if corporate interests were not having influence on the content which is what is happening in our corporately distributed uh and and funded uh film and media reality uh it it makes it so that if you're questioning that then that's a problem it shouldn't be that way and there's political things that I'm very happy that are going on right now. I'm surprised that Bernie Sanders is making the kind of awareness that's going on right now. It's very positive. Sure.

And I'm very happy that that's happening. Of course, it has to do with business and it's specifically with with corporate interests uh but what i'm writing about is how it affects art that because i don't i don't i i've been talking about these political elements lately but i hate politics it's not my interest my interest is art but when i see that it's affected art and it has affected my life it gets to me it's almost well you know, there's very limited public funding for art. And also there's... That's okay. I mean, it sure would be nice.

But the problem is that we're not living in a true democracy. Right. We're not in a functioning democracy. That's right. That's true. And what it really comes down to, which I also am happy that there's a movement, is about getting an amendment passed which would get money out of politics. Because right now we have legalized bribery. Corporate money out of, yeah.

I mean, it's unfortunate. The positive thing is that the propaganda has been that we live in a democracy. Yeah. But there's more of us than there are corporations. The only reason corporations are able to be enjoying the existence that they're enjoying is because people are letting it happening be happening and the government has made concessions to to allow it that's correct well or not even concessions they've been paid off to make it happen so what's positive is because it's called a democracy all we have to do is align it

through a proper amendment and then it could become a functioning democracy and then corporations could be put in the proper placement so they're they're serving the people as they should be serving yeah and what that would take is for someone to listen to what you're saying all the way through and not go like yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah it's well it's it's also why i really think i mean i don't know what the ultimate solution is, but I can tell that getting an amendment passed to truly get money out of legalized bribery out of politics. We have a good start. That would have a domino effect of really positive change. Now, when you talk about art and you talk about this crusade in a way

in terms of your agenda against corporate occupation of the government and the arts, when you take your films out, what is the show? I'm curious. I mean, how do you use it? Since the 80s, I started making the live show consists of eight. Well, I have two different live shows, and it consists of eight different books. I have them here. These are your self-published books?

These are self-published. I started publishing these in the 80s. They're nice looking. Yeah, I'm very proud of the books. These are heavily illustrated books. The images are projected behind me as I dramatically narrate the books. These are sort of like things that you've written and cut out and played with. Yes, and like I said, I made most of these in the 80s and very early 90s. Oh, these are nice. Yeah, I'm very proud of the books. Yes. And like I said, I made most of these in the eighties and early nineties.

Oh, these are nice. And they're, yeah, I'm very proud of the books. Yeah. And, and so I,

you have a company that binds them for you so beautifully that you work with, or do you do this? I, I self publish them. I, I, who does the binding though? Classic.

Yeah. Yeah. They're, they're, they're done in the style of books from the 1800s because they're taken from books in the 1800s, uh, uh,

and made into different books. Well, some of it. I mean, each book is done in a very different way. Like the one that you're looking at right now is something I found photographs of in an old thrift shop. Oh, yeah? It was like a photographer, semi-professional, professional photographer. They had thrown a lot of his work away, and there was this kind of model-y looking woman by a trash can, and I thought an interesting story could be made.

That one, Rat Catching, I found the binding on Hollywood Boulevard in probably 1983. I made that in 1984. I started it before I made Back to the Future and finished it just right after I finished. Was this when you were living there on Hollywood Boulevard? Yes. I remember reading about your place. Right, yeah, yeah.

And someone had gone over there and you had a lot of interesting bits of ephemera. Well, People Magazine, it was the first article that I ever had that was when I was promoting River's Edge. That was the first time I ever did publicity. My original plan was never to do any publicity at all. I was just be an actor that would play different parts and you wouldn't know anything

about me. And then I didn't do any publicity for Back to the Future. But when Rivers Edge came out- Can I have these? Yes, you may. I bought those for you. That's beautiful. But Back to the Future, I mean, when River's Edge came out, at that time, it made sense for me to promote it. And I ended up going on to the Johnny Carson show twice in a row. And then they wanted me to go on to the Letterman show. But I'd never done any publicity.

It was very outside of what my interest was. How about your comfort zone? listening was very outside of what my interest was how about your comfort zone uh well this is again this is the territory that i part of what i'm i'm uh writing about i it was it is not what i had planned to do it's not what i liked uh publicity well i'm a business person as well as particularly as a as a filmmaker i i have to publicize my films and you put out books and i put out books although that's not something i'm so films are very high uh i i fund my films myself so i put a lot of money into them uh the books i i fund the books myself and that is kind of actually how i learned about business because my parents essentially were actors which is not a very business oriented

we never know the artist and the actor sort of like you you got two or three people doing that stuff and you're like how does this work don't worry about it kid yeah it's uh it's not it's not my background. And so when I had a record out also in 1989. I remember that. That was pretty out there too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm proud of the record. Yeah.

And in fact, there's some of the book readings on the record as well. But it was around the same time that I published the first book, Rackhatching, 88. And around the same time that I published, I'd sold the same amount of books that I had sold on my records. And I had made much more money on my books because I'd published them myself. I never made any money on the record except for what they, a very small amount. What was that record called? It was called The Big Problem Does Not Equal the Solution. The Solution Equals Let It Be.

What was that record called? It was called The Big Problem Does Not Equal the Solution. The Solution Equals Let It Be. And there was a kind of an idea that people would look at the, listen to the different elements. And there was a telephone number on the back because it was pre-internet. The telephone number let people know how to buy the books. But the idea was that people would call up and they would say what the big problem was i didn't say i didn't give the answers to what the big problem was but it let people so these are

these that that in and of itself is is an artistic experiment it's almost a performance piece and the first book the rat one yeah it wasn't the first book i made but it was the first book i published but these were like you seem to find and this is something I feel about you, even in, you know, when you showed up at my door. Yeah. In the way that you're dressed in a way that you seem to be interested in these portals to other times. Yeah.

That reveal a certain human darkness that is unexplainable. Yeah. Yeah. I like things that are a bit mysterious. And I do, I tend, I mean, my first two films are not specifically period films, but there's an aspect to them. The new one is very much a period.

It takes place in four different time periods. It just reminds me of this sort of like there's, like I somehow, like when I talk to you, you know, and what I've seen of your work and what you're interested in, there's like i i somehow like when i talk to you you know and and what i've seen of of your work and and what you're interested in there's something about like how i know you covered a manson song yeah and i know that you you sort of you seem to be somewhat creatively fascinated with the the the the mythologizing of individuals but also the darkness available in individuals sure uh and and like, you seem to have a respect for Hollywood's tabloid past, in a way.

How do you mean? Well, I mean that there's something, I've always found this place poetically haunting, Hollywood, and the history of show business. I think the most interesting thing about it is the underside of it. Right, that's what I mean. So I called that tabloid my mistake. It has a different definition now. Right, right.

But yeah, the havoc it wreaks on the souls who try. My favorite book ever about Los Angeles, which I read when I was 13 or 14, was The Day of the Locust. Have you read that book? Yeah, it's crazy. It's great, but it captures, you can tell that Nathaniel West, he was writing screenplays. Yeah, he knew. And yeah, and the very thing, I read it when I hadn't gone through everything that I've been through. But I liked it initially when I was 13 or 14 years old. And then I kept thinking, it's the only book I've ever reread. I didn't reread the whole thing, but I wanted to go back and look at it.

I mean, they made a movie about it, which has certain portions are poetically quite perfect and beautiful. Oh, yeah, yeah. I like the movie. I like the end of it. And I like Donald Sutherland in it. Well, he's great. He's great. And Karen Black is great in it.

Who directed that again? It's the guy who directed Midnight Cowboy. Schlesinger? Yeah. Oh, yeah, that's great. He's great. And Karen Black is great in it. Who directed that again? It's the guy who directed Midnight Cowboy. Schlesinger? Yeah. Oh, yeah. That's right. That's right. But the book, I mean, there are-

Yeah, it's a masterpiece. It's a masterpiece. It is. And the thing that still is in Los Angeles is in that book. That was in the 1930s. Right, right. Los Angeles is in that book. That was in the 1930s. Right, right.

He very much captures the, because he talks about the surface quality of the architecture. A lot of that's been torn down now, but things that look like owls and the idea that it was surface, there was a surface value, which is totally true. Yeah. And that ends up being the thematic element in the book, which is completely true about this city. And it's a very good thing to be aware of. If I meet somebody that's newly in Los Angeles, I say, read this book. But what is that thing, though, that the surface value is there?

Because it's quantifiable. I understand that. You can make money out of out of but it's not of actual value no i get that but what's what's always there is the strange sort of you know dark desperation because people when they come to the city and they don't have that back the background they can get confused about what that surface value is. And exploit it. And they start thinking that it's their internal value. And it's a very bad way to think about this city. This city, you have to look at it as a business city.

Right, but they destroy people. Of course, because they believe that they put their internal self as being the external self. So this was sort of the battle you fought all your life as an actor, in a way. I mean, not, okay, maybe battle's the wrong word, but your awareness of this. Well, yes, I'm very aware of it. Right, but at the age that you took it,

that you started to have it, because if you were sort of investigating this stuff creatively, you know, at the time of Back to the Future, that you knew that, you know, you had to fortify your heart and mind against this business that you were involved in and made a living in. But the thing was, I didn't think that at the time because when I was 16, I learned how to drive and I started going to all of the revival houses.

When I started as an actor at age 13, I mean, I thought of it abstractly as maybe this is what I could do as a living, but I wasn't, I was relatively artistically sophisticated in terms of like I liked, you know, Salvador Dali or Hieronymus Bosch as painters, and I

had read interesting books, but I did not equate, I'd grown up watching television mostly. And I didn't see Chinatown, for example, even though my father was in it. I didn't see that until I went to the new Beverly Theater when I was like 18 or 19. Oh, really? Yeah. No, my parents didn't take me to see a rated movie.

It's a great movie. Although I didn't realize how great it was until I had always liked Polanski's Repulsion very much, which I saw that when I was 16. So the movies I was seeing, this was 1980. So the movies I was watching were movies from the 70s, 60s, 20s, 30s, which were highly questioning films. There was something that happened in the 1980s. films. There was something that happened in the 1980s. But I was, as a young actor, excited about being part of this great industry that would question things that should be questioned.

But in retrospect, I realized there was a strong shift in the control that was happening in the 1980s, the early 80s. And I was thinking, where are these questions that I was expecting to be a part of? And then I started feeling there was essentially a lie. And that lie is that it's supporting corporate interests, which want people to not be questioning things. Because if people question things, they will have the ability to take the power away from corporate interests. That's right. And that's what's important to have happen, which I'm very happy about because people are starting to realize this. It has something to do with the internet, which is a very positive thing.

So in knowing that, so in starting to have these realizations as a young actor, what did that- It took me a while to really put this stuff together though i i it was when i started making my first film what year are we talking 1996 okay but it still seems to me that like even movies like i i can't remember what you played in a close range but that was with was that with christopher walken yeah sean penn yeah and uh and river's edge yeah that that so that was was a very good script. And Dennis Hopper was in that. It was great.

Yeah. And the thing is, is that like the character that you play, like I remember in that movie when you finally pass out in your fucking car. You know, that like the insane, you know, kind of like, you know, speed driven loyalty. Yeah. No, it was... But, like, that seemed to be a movie that had integrity. It did. Like, it seemed that, like, if I look at the choice...

That was still coming out of that era of... That was the kind of movies that I was expecting would be, you know, slingshotted into more of that kind of thought process. And instead, I can see very clearly in retrospect that it was this is the kind of movie that was being shunned away right but but you know even the doors you know which was uh was that elverstone yeah i mean you must respect his early of course yeah yeah yeah no i very much enjoyed working with him oh yeah and the people versus where

you print yeah you were great in that miloilos Forman is definitely one of my favorite people. And you were great in that movie. Well, what's interesting is he's from the former Czechoslovakia. And I was shooting my first film right in the midst of while I shot that movie. And I had long hair. He's very interested in organic elements. He wanted to have my hair cut because it goes in from the 70s to the 80s.

Luckily, there was something out of sequence. They were going to have to put a wig on me one way or another because they had to shoot the 70s stuff after they shot the 80s stuff. So it ended up making sense for me to wear the wig

in the 80s. But it was going to be a problem because in the midst, for me, because I had long hair for my own production for What Is It?

And I had to shoot, I was expanding What Is It? from a short film into a feature. But he came up to me one day and he started being

really nice to me when I came on to set. He said, good morning Crispin how are you it's good to see you how are you doing today and he said you know why I'm being so nice to you I said no why why and he said because I've heard you're making a movie and I want to be in it he had a great he just had a great sense of humor in a great way about him there are certain filmmakers that have been particularly

kind to me he was one of them David Lynch is one of them Werner Herzog is one of them John Waters is one of them and they're all people that you could tell they came from essentially i mean neilish foreman was working in a different situation but they they essentially manifested their own filmmaking they funded their own films or something one way or another so the fact that those people they they in particular have been kind to me and i i really appreciate they're also kindred spirits in their independent vision like you're saying well and i and they're people that i had watched their their films as well and

what did you do with uh oh well you did uh wild at heart i was in wild and heart and uh another uh thing uh that was a pilot called hotel room and then he had initially the one of the films i'll be showing at the american cinematech on the 18th and 19th is my first film, What Is It?, which there's parts one and two I've shot of what will be a trilogy. I'll be showing parts one and two at the American Cinematheque at the Egyptian Theater. I'll show that trailer for the new movie. show that trailer for the new movie but uh i haven't shot part three yet but part three was actually a feature screenplay that i'd written before what is it was made as initially going to be a short film to promote most of the actors in the film and what is it have down syndrome the film's not about down syndrome at all what it really is, is my psychological reaction to the corporate

constraints that have happened in the last 30 or more years of filmmaking, of corporately funded and distributed filmmaking, where anything that can possibly make an audience uncomfortable is necessarily excised, or that film will not be corporately funded or distributed. And this is a very damaging thing because it's that moment when an audience member sits back in their chair, looks up at the screen and thinks to themselves, is this right what I'm watching? Is this wrong what I'm watching? Should I be here? Should the filmmaker have done this? What is it? And that's the title of the film. What is it that's taboo in the culture? What does it mean when the taboo has been ubiquitously excised? Again, this is a very damaging thing because it is that moment when people are asking questions that they're having, in the etymological sense of the word, education, meaning to learn from within.

When they're asking questions, they're having true education. And to ubiquitously excise the possibility of genuine questioning, it becomes the opposite of education. What's the opposite of education? What's the opposite of education? It's propaganda. So all expression becomes propaganda if you don't- Well, corporately funded and distributed filmmaking becomes propaganda. That's the threat of the- That's the reality.

It's not just the threat. It's the reality of our situation. But there are people like you. There are people that are artists. There are exceptions. And even there are people that work in the corporately funded and distributed film situation that have struggled through and they have accomplished getting things through. It's just the exception as opposed to the rule. And I admire it when they do that. But the question is enough. The answer is not important. What is it? accomplished getting things through now it's just the exception as opposed to the rule but then i

admire it when they do that but the question is enough the answer is not important what is it is that the question that puts it on that's the then it's a responsibility of the viewers to be challenged and to experience it and to and to feel their own feelings and live with them now that now seeing that that was a theme so you know, like going back when you started to have to do promotion, like whatever the hell happened on Letterman, you know, what you responded to, you know, with Kaufman. Was this part of your ideology all along that you wanted people to say, what is it? Well, I do feel a responsibility toward putting something that is good for the culture at large. I have felt guilty at certain times in my career when I felt that the messages that were being put forth

that I was a part of were not... Right. Did that happen a lot? That's the norm. It's not the exception, unfortunately. But on the other side of that is you have to make a living exactly and that's the thing is of course

there's all kinds of great people in the film industry and media that come in and they have all these high hopes and expectations and they want to do things that are going to challenge and be interesting and entertaining and thoughtful and questioning and then there's

a way that it happens. And people start thinking, well, okay, I want to act or I want to direct a film or I want to write a film. And they end up having to figure out essentially what it is that's going to please the corporate interests. It's not said that way there's no kind of when people hear the word propaganda they think of something like nazi germany or or communist russia where there was a genuine ministry that was had a dictated kind of panel that said this is going to happen this is they told you that isn't how it works here no no but it still if has the same effect But it still has the same effect.

Well, no, it has the same effect, but we call it entertainment. Well, it was always entertainment. I mean, it's like you can go look at those movies that were made in World War II under. Okay, that's a good point. That's a good point. They had a great series. I went and saw them in the 90s at UCLA of these world war two era, um,

German films. They're very well structured movies. I saw about nine of them and most of them were love stories. Oh, really? And the, and the, the love story went like this,

essentially stay true to your love or you'll be laughed at, ridiculed, ousted from society, and ultimately killed. Some of them didn't get to the point of killing. But the metaphor was apparent. It was stay true to the state or we'll kill you, which is creepy as hell. But so we don't necessarily have that same message. They wanted people to be true to the state.

But essentially, there are similarities. They're staying true to the thought process of whatever it is that will serve corporate interests. And if the messages within the film go away from that, that film will not be corporately funded or distributed. If something is actually like um specifically questioning those values that's going to be very difficult let me ask you a question though you're you're dealing with the world like you know the the type of of work that you do is is like even that trailer it definitely makes me say you know what is it this is compelling they're they're you know they're there's craft there there's a lot of um mystery involved yeah but there is a level so I'm saying you're dealing with a type of expression even in the books which is cryptic by nature in a way I

well I I have a I do have a strong interest in I think the surrealist is something that okay so really important but well yeah but specifically what the surrealist did. Okay. And they're not, I don't know if I'm running out of time. You're not. But the surrealists, they understood that Freud's understanding of the human subconscious, Freudian analysis was used so that the patient would sit or lay on a couch and talk about in free association that which was on their mind. And classically, you have the Freudian analyst sitting with a pad of paper, not saying anything. And then at the end of the session, the Freudian analyst will recognize certain patterns that have come through in the subconscious of what they're talking about,

whether it was in the dreams they're talking about, and the idea is that the things that are bothering the patient that the patient doesn't recognize, an analyst will be able to point them out, and then the patient feels better. So what the surrealists recognized was, okay, well, we don't need to make ourselves feel better. We want to get that which is essentially operating in the subconscious,

and that creates interesting things that people can get something out of. Provocative, but not necessarily defined. Well, it lets the participant, the audience, bring their own psychology and on some level their own subconscious into it and fill in those blanks, which makes them an active participant in it. That's good art. Yeah, got it. And all good art does that. It's not just the surrealist. Sure.

So it depends on to what level somebody's doing it. it depends on what to what level somebody's doing it there might be somebody like myself who's very subsumed in that kind of thought process and i very much enjoy things where i can really put stuff together some people are less inclined toward that but that a lot of that has to do with with with the education that they're they're used to and i i'm not saying it's wrong to not be able to do it. Sure. You know, I think people are intelligent. Sure. And people want to have thoughtful things to go forward.

Now, it's true there are some people that want to go to a movie and have, I don't know, some kind of escapism. You don't do that at all? Well, definitely. I definitely have that in, oh, you mean in my own films or when I go and enjoy or. Sure. I mean, I've been going to when I was 18, I would go and see every single film that was in release. I lived off of Hollywood Boulevard. And so there were all the theaters. I'd go see every single film. And then if I couldn't, I went all the way to westwood and make sure that i'd see literally every single film that was in release because at that time i felt i was thinking more about acting at that time but i felt like i could learn something whether it was good or bad now i don't feel like that as much i really kind of want to see things that are excellent are there filmmakers that you enjoy yeah oh definitely that are excellent. Are there filmmakers that you enjoy? Yeah, oh, definitely.

That are working now, like movies? It seems like there is a middle way where people are making films that do have some corporate support that are fairly good. Oh, yeah, that definitely happens, but it's the exception as opposed to the rule. Like, what have you liked lately?

Yeah. liked lately um yeah um i i oh i i very much enjoyed enter the void oh yeah uh by gaspar no way that's good i i thought that was very a very interesting film and very very film and very, very cinematic and very well made. And, uh, yeah, I, I like that a lot. Do you still, um, do you, do you still enjoy acting? I've always, um, I've always enjoyed, uh, aspects of acting. I, uh, I particularly enjoy it. Of course, if there's actually something that i i can get behind but in 2000 i had to make uh after back to the future came out and that film made so much money and it was well regarded i felt a certain obligation because i'd had some questions about the moral element in it that i i felt like i needed to act in something that would somehow psychologically reflect what my genuine interests were. And the first film that I acted in after that film had been released

was River's Edge, which is a film that I'm still very proud of. Subsequent to that time period, most of the films that I acted in did not necessarily, I mean, reflect what my psychological interests were. I was trying to find characters or directors or things that were interesting. And I don't regret the time period because there was a persona that was etched out at that time, which essentially I still have. And I'm basically comfortable with that persona. But in 1999, the second film that I'll be playing at the Egyptian, it's called It Is Fine, Everything Is Fine.

I had read this screenplay way back in 1986. It was written by a man who had a severe case of cerebral palsy. And when he was in his early 20s, his mother died, and he was placed into a nursing home. And the people that were taking care of him at the nursing home would derisively call him an MR, a mental retard, which is not a nice thing to say to anybody. But Stephen C. Stewart was his name, was of normal intelligence. And the emotional turmoil for the decade

that he was locked into that nursing home, I can't even begin to imagine. But he did finally get out. And when he got out, he wrote this screenplay in the style of a 1970s TV murder mystery movie of the week, wherein he's the bad guy. And there was something about that he'd written it in in this genre style as opposed to a standard autobiography

that there were certain elements of his subconscious or psychology that come through and uh i i i was i had we not had steve died within a month after we finished making the film. He, cerebral palsy is not degenerative, but he was getting older. He was 62 by the time we shot it. And he, in 1999, he was starting to choke on his own saliva and he got pneumonia and one of his lungs collapsed. It became apparent if we didn't shoot anything soon, we'd never get to shoot anything at all. I had to get money to fund that film.

It was right at the time that the first Charlie's Angels film was coming to me. And even when I first read the script, they were interested in meeting with me.

And I play a character that doesn't say anything. But it originally had dialogue in it. And the dialogue was quite expositional and it wasn't necessary dialogue. I even needing to work on the film, I didn't initially want to go in on the meeting. Three years before I would have just completely turned the film down, but they said they were interested in hearing what my thoughts were.

They kept contacting my agents. So I went in and they said, what do you think? And I said, well, I said, whether I play the character or not, I think the dialogue for the character should be excised and it should just be a silent fighting antagonistic character. And McG, the director, who can be very enthusiastic, stood up and said, that's great. That's how we're going to do it.

Fantastic. And then they showed me the Chinese team that were going to be doing the choreography, the Yun family, who've done great, great work with wire work. And they understand psychology of character through movement. and they understand psychology of character through movement. And I realized that a silent, quiet character with this Chinese team essentially choreographing, it could be very interesting and I could fund Steve's film. And so that's what happened. I shot that. I acted in Charlie's Angels.

I flew to Salt Lake where we shot it. I co-directed it with David Brothers who built. It's all shot on sets. He's really good. He built all the sets, which essentially I paid for with my salary from Charlie's Angels. And we shot it over in three separate smaller productions over a period of six months. Flew back to Los Angeles. And then within a month after shooting the film I got a call

and it became apparent that Steve was back in the hospital and he was essentially asking for permission to take himself off of life support if we had enough footage to finish the film and of course it was a sad day and a heavy responsibility to let Steve know that we

did have enough footage to finish the film but I know that if I have enough footage to finish the film. But I know that if I had said, no, Steve, you need to get better. We need you. He would have been there because he would have had a great attitude because he'd essentially already done that. But this film, when the whole trilogy of the films are done, that film is the film that'll be the best film in the whole trilogy. But not only that, I feel like it will be the best film I'll have anything to do with in my whole career. There's just something about the specificity of what Steve had gone through that is quite unusual. And, I mean, of course, I'm very excited about the new film.

And it's probably the new film, the one with my father, is something that's going to, it's not part of the trilogy, but it's probably something that more people will be able to enjoy in a certain way. So would you say that now, most of the time, you take roles in large corporate movies

to fund your art? It was at the year 2000 that that film came out and it did very well. I hadn't been in a film that had made a lot of money for a while. Charlie's Angels? Charlie's Angels did very well. And then I started, you know, that's how things work. You would like to think it's, oh, if I do a really good job in this film, then I'll get offers.

think it's oh if i do a really good job in this film then i'll get offers it's if you're it's it's sort of that but it's more if you're in a uh uh do a good job in a film that makes a lot of money then you get a lot of offers and uh and and so good offers did come in i like willard came about which was a very uh enjoyable character to play that that to date is still the only time I've ever played the lead in a studio film. Yeah. And I enjoyed playing that character. It was good for my career and I realized I had to change the way that I was

thinking about my career. I needed to very specifically do you know, John Cassavetes is definitely a role model on that level of I needed to make as much money as I could as an actor and put that money into making my films. And that's what you do. And that, yeah. And I mean, the good thing is, is that there are people out there that are interested in making films that are interesting and they like, they'll find me often interesting to put in

something that's interesting so it's it's worked out uh and also people are apparently in in i'm happy to hear are engaged with what you're doing yeah i mean that's that's something that i'm i ultimately am the most passionate about are are the films that I'm making myself. Coming full circle. Do you know, are you familiar with Timothy Carey? Yes, I went to his house. I knew it. I knew it.

Yeah, I went to his house in the 80s. Yeah. Late 80s. Like, is he a role model? Late 80s. Like, is he a role model? Well, there were two actors when I was studying acting. I could always detect, I could always figure out what the method, for lack of a better word, was that an actor was employing to get to their stage. Yeah.

But there were two actors that I did not feel that way about. One of them was Andy Kaufman. Yeah. And the other was Timothy Carey. Right. And I never met Andy Kaufman,

but I had the opportunity to go to Timothy Carey's house and it was a very, it was really, it was really fascinating. I'm very glad I had that experience. Well, when I sort of started-

Do you know him? No, no, no. But when I started thinking about you and about sort of not a template, but somebody who was within the system and then started to kind of really break away in an extreme way, I thought about Timothy Carey, who I loved in some of the earlier movies. I'm not that familiar with his work. Well, have you ever seen The World's Greatest Sinner? No.

Oh, he directed it. Right. I know, yeah. No, I know about the movie, but I've not seen it. It's worth seeing. I saw it for the first time at his house. He didn't have it out on DVD at the time. That's the one that Zappa did the soundtrack for, correct?

Yes, I believe that's right. Right. Yes, yeah. And what was your experience with Timothy Carey? Well, it was fascinating. You were going there to figure him out in a way. Yes. How did that happen?

How did you get the opportunity to go there? There's a friend of mine, Adam Parfrey. I know Adam Parfrey. I've interviewed him. Oh, you did? Yeah. Okay, great, great. Adam- Makes sense sense it's all coming

together yeah i mean apocalypse culture the first volume changed my life yeah and it seems like you're kind of he's a great publisher symbiotic uh he's in my first film he's in what is it and his father was a character that's right it's something he he and i have in common is when you're growing up in the film industry and having a parent or parents that are his mother was also in the industry she directed plays in New York

but if you're as opposed to you know like I said my father wasn't super wealthy or super famous so if you're see the reality of how that works, it doesn't give you a glowing view of the industry. I have always had a very realistic view of the industry. And Adam Parfrey, that was something he and I relate to well. So he set you up with Timothy? Well, there was a friend of his that somehow, or somebody he knew, was acquainted with, that had been in contact with Timothy Carey.

And so that was set up. So the three of us went to Timothy Carey's house and we were there for a number of hours. And what did you glean? But he was, the first hour was spent talking, Timothy Carey talked about passing gas and the health of this. For an hour? Yes. Okay. And at first, of course, it was kind of funny.

The first 15 or 20 minutes. Yeah. It was funny. And then it was very serious. He wasn't doing it as a joke. And then it wasn't really so funny. And then it was kind of funny again. And then, you know, we were there for several hours. Well, you watched the film, right?

Eventually, probably about two hours into it, we had a guest house. It was larger than this. It was his kind of studio. And then we were out there for most of the time. Then we went into his living room, and then he showed us the film, which was excellent. It's a very interesting movie. And then I asked him, what I noticed about him, I went and saw both East of Eden and... The Killing?

And The Killing. I think I saw The Killing a little later. Paths of Glory. And Paths of Glory I saw later. But I noticed when I was watching the film, you know, James Dean is one of those actors that you're studying as a young actor and Marlon Brando. But in those scenes, Timothy Carey has fight scenes with both of them in bars. But in those scenes, my eye was not on James Dean. My eye was not on Marlon Brando.

It was on Timothy Carey. But the part that I hesitate to say a little bit, but maybe I'll say it. At one point, you hear a lot of different tales. I don't know if you've heard a lot of tales about Timothy Carey, but he wasn't originally supposed to be in shadows. He disappeared during the middle of production. And then I've heard different tales as to how he was found, but essentially they just had to hide his character and then they put him back in once he showed back up again. Also, I think he met his wife in Germany there, and Kubrick did as well. So there's something in common. But he kind of pointed at his head at one point and said,

I almost feel like I'm betraying something private. He said something about his mental health. And so it was fascinating to me because I realized that part of what was hard for me to detect about him was there was something going on I gleaned or assumed from talking to him that was essentially indetectable because he was having, for lack of a better word, mental health issues. And so that's part of why I would say probably it was hard for me to detect what the specific method was. Like Marlon Brando, I mean, he's a great actor, but I essentially can understand what he's employing to get to the state or James Dean. But like I said, the two that I can't, and I never met Andy Kaufman, so I don't know exactly where it was coming from.

And Timothy Carey, even having had that meeting of course i don't know those the the exact uh neurons so to speak that we're getting to that point but you're sort of one of those guys too well that's that i mean it might be what people i i probably early on have always been interested in the idea of art and madness, for the lack of a better word, as being as good for art. But people probably question, in fact, I know people question me as if i'm a sane human being people will often wonder or believe that i am either psychotic or uh have mental uh issues but i don't i mean i i'm a healthy uh yeah i feel that i was about to say that you look like you're in good health. And I think that my take on it from talking to you for a while and having my own assumptions, but like I don't judge mental illness too harshly, is that you will take the risk of letting your mind go and then hopefully catch up with it. Well, I wouldn't quite put it that way. I've never, my mind has never gone to a point of, well, in clinical terms, psychosis.

Or, yeah, psychosis. Close? No. Okay. Nowhere near close. Okay. Like I said, I'm a very, I've always been a very analytical person, and I've never been...

I'm lucky in that I've known people that had genuine psychosis. I've seen true mental illness, and it's a terrible thing. And like you were saying, I don't judge it. I feel badly for some. I mean, that's something that really ruins people's lives. But no, I count myself as lucky in being a very mentally stable person. But I understand in terms of acting and performance, it's very important to be able to go into all states of mind. Sure. And I've tended toward having an interest since a young age of that which is unusual.

But I think I recognized at a very early age that mental illness or psychosis is on some level can be an artistic realm to go into, kind of relating to what we were talking about having to do with the subconscious. Some people might find that unpleasant. do with the subconscious. Some people might find that unpleasant, but I think like looking at certain art from the late 1800s and the early 1900s, painters were going into a psychological area that at some point it was considered by certain cultural aesthetics unpleasant. But they were going into something interesting. Sure. And I think there's all different palettes that can be played with, but it's a palette that I've tended toward liking. Yeah.

Now, okay, the live shows with the screenings are happening. Yes. Sporadically and with real time. And also, I mean, I've been talking about the show in LA. I've been editing on the film right now, so I haven't posted any other shows because I've been thinking about this stuff. But I do tour regularly.

People can sign up on the newsletter on crispinglover.com. I have an official Crispin Hellion Glover Facebook page and then a Crispin Hellion Glover Facebook page, a Crispin Glover Twitter, a Crispin Hellion Glover Instagram. But the best way to know is by signing up for the newsletter on CrispinGlover.com. Great. and then of course we should say because the people that initially got me was the Hurra Jackson film Amy in a Cage which I'm in right now and is available and

I don't know what else to say I enjoyed this immensely yeah me too no you're really a tremendously talented interviewer and comedian thank you so much I really appreciate it a tremendously talented interviewer and a comedian as well. Thank you so much. Yeah, I really appreciate it.

Thank you. Thank you, Crispin. And Louis will be excited because he likes the... I was texting with him before you came over. Oh, great. And he likes the fact

that you talk them out of having any dialogue for the Charlie's Angels guy. Oh, well, you know, I mean, I admire what he's doing with his show as well, where he... It seems to be up your alley. Oh, well, you know, I mean, I admire what he's doing with his show as well where he... It seems to be up your alley.

Yeah, well, where he's, you know, that he's doing it like little movies. I, you know, there's the technical aspect as well in that he's using

the lenses. I shot the new film on a 35mm negative. I can tell that he's, you know, a genuine cinephile and that he's a genuine cinephile and that he's using comedy with the bittersweet quality of the dark qualities as well, which goes into true good art and getting into the subconscious psychologies, which are interesting. And I can tell that you do that.

I was very impressed also. I don't know if this is true or not, but do you genuinely do your shows without, do you genuinely improvise your shows? The stand-up? Yeah. I generally have things I'm working on. I don't know how they're going to go

or how they're going to fall. Right, right. But I definitely leave a lot of room. Yeah, I'm impressed by that. Well, thanks, man. And I appreciate that it's obvious that you are interested in bringing in this kind of thing that makes people think. The energy. And lets people think. Sure. That's what's important. Thank you so much.

Yeah. It's nice to hear that. Well, I appreciate it. Great talking to you. You too. Thank you. So that was a ride, was it not? I believe it was.

I think I'm going to spend more time with him. We were hanging out after, and we exchanged numbers, and I don't know. I think it was pretty exciting. It was an exciting conversation, right? Oh, yes, it was. Go to WTFpod.com for all that stuff. I got this new pedal.

That's crazy, right? I'm not, I've never been a pedal guy either. Boomer lives! Boomer lives! I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative.

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