WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 677 - Mike Binder

Episode Date: February 1, 2016

Mike Binder’s career evolved in unforeseen ways since he first started doing stand-up on TV when he was 18. After being a staple in the glory days of The Comedy Store, Mike tells Marc how doing comedy led to writing some early screenplays, which opened the door for him to become a full-time film director, TV show creator, and thriller novelist. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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If you've been here before, welcome back. If you're leaving right now, see you later, fucker. It's all right. It's okay. I get it. Maybe fast-forwarding up to the interview. Whatever you want to do, it's really okay with me. As I detach more and more from what I think your expectations to be, I find freedom in that. But nonetheless, today on the show, I have Mike Binder, the comedian, filmmaker, actor, and now author. He's written a new thriller.

You know, I'll tell you about Binder. He just wrote a book. He wrote a thriller called Keep Calm. It's available everywhere tomorrow, February 2nd. A thriller. But this guy was a comic and he's one of the reasons why I actually, not that I started doing comedy, but I love comedy. If that makes, I'll try to explain that in a minute. let me see if i can get some other business out of the way well as some of you know uh lewis ck did an amazing thing he he uh he did something that there's a few amazing things about what he's done with his new

piece of work horace and pete's this is a downloadable um piece of uh what would you even call it uh it's definitely not a television show because he has um brought new definition to uh you know what is possible through self-producing and through uh internet um distribution well here's what happened a couple weeks ago louis was in town he was here to uh for the television critics association thing out in pasadena he was here with zach and uh he came over and we didn't get on the mics we just went out we had something to eat we sat in here and talked for about two hours about this thing he was doing that i had to be sworn to secrecy about you can go to louisck.net and download Horace and Pete.

And it all takes place on one or two sets. It's in a bar. But here's the beautiful thing about it. Everybody was running around going, what's Louis going to do now that he's not doing the show? What's he going to do? Well, he sort of compulsively created this very dark but beautiful series

that when you watch it it reads like a stage play it stars alan alda steve buscemi edie falco jessica lang stephen wright kurt metzger is fucking genius in it fucking kurt nick de palo's there but he told me about this whole thing where he just self-financed this uh this project you know he got all these amazing talents to work for for whatever they're working for he reached out to a bunch of people he uh you know he found out paul simon was a fan of his and he he met with paul simon and paul simon agreed to do the the song for it it was so beautiful he's sitting here he's like playing me the theme song of horse and pizza. Like,

who is that? And I'm like, Oh fuck. I know that voice. And it's like fucking Paul Simon's Paul Simon. But anyways, we talked for, for like an hour over an hour about this thing,

about how it all came together off Mike. And then the fucker, we get up. He's like, Oh, we really should have recorded that. Yes, we should have because the story of how Louie self-producedced and kept secret an incredibly dark sort of undefinable project.

I mean, it's almost like an O'Neill play. It's like it's like theater. It's shot on a soundstage and there's no audience and it's full of dramatic pauses. It's not necessarily funny all the time. Alan Alda is doing something that I've never seen him do. And it's all written by Lou. funny all the time alan alda is doing something that i've never seen him do and it's all written by lou and it's just louis executing the louis vision in a completely unfiltered way but in a completely uh structured way like i've never seen him do before and you know it's it's weird

what when you have a friend and we are friends who you know is possessed by a certain genius and gets things done so that's the difference between people who accomplish things and and and people who who get upset about people who accomplish things or who who uh chip away at people who accomplish things that's what they put their energy into is uh people who accomplish things accomplish things they set their mind to something and they do it. They harness their creativity. They harness their passion. They harness their instincts

and they understand their limitations and work within them to create things. And then there are people. There are people out there that don't do that but still demand attention, demand to have a voice. What was amazing to me was that Louis just completely, fuck fuck twitter fuck it got off because you know he understood the vortex of it he understood his own compulsion

around it as i do but i can't get out of it just yet because because you know i'll kick tomorrow but it takes it you know it you really have to make a choice not to be a maggot among maggots you know ferociously feeding on the corpse of culture just the fucking monsters out there it's just like i i guess my point is louis is a fucking doer and he's inspired and he's a fucking genius and it's always amazing to see a genius do what they do on their own terms and i think if you go watch this horace and pete thing you'll be like what the fuck is it? Doesn't matter. It's beautiful on a lot of levels.

It's something completely unto itself and it's released completely in its own world. It's something that he is solely responsible for and nobody else got involved with it. And it involves an amazing ensemble of talent and an amazing ensemble of what seems to be a lighting and camera operators and art deck. But it's like, it's like nothing you've ever seen before. And it just, it's, it's just Louis once again, kind of, uh, breaking the mold, shifting the paradigm, showing people what they can do if they just let their creativity fucking,

just let it roll. So this is not a paid plug. This is a friend plug because I got so fucking excited when I was talking to him. Like I was beside myself that he had done this amazing thing and then I couldn't say anything about it,

which isn't that big a problem. I don't talk to many people, but I couldn't wait for it to be released. Because how often does somebody do something that nobody knows anything about with that amount of talent and that amount of production? It was just fucking spectacular. Anyways, I loved it. It's powerful.

It's dark. It's moving. It's multi-leveled. It's theater. It's powerful. It's dark. It's moving. It's multi-leveled. It's theater. It's fucking theater. Louis C.K. now can add playwright, as far as I'm concerned, to his long resume. So check that out. Again, not a sponsored plug.

Friend plug. I wish we would have fucking recorded the stories he told me in making that thing. But anyways, check that out. Horace and Pete. Go to louisck.net. Mike Binder. Mike Binder's coming. I can't, like, this is one of those people

that, you know, many of you might not know, but I was fucking dying to talk to him. When I was a kid and I watched the stand-up shows, Mike Binder was this young guy, almost looked like a kid. He had his hair combed over. He had blonde hair. He looked like he was like 20.

He was hilarious. He was a hilarious comic. I still remember the bits. A day at Disneyland. And also, I remember one thing I saw him do. He grabbed a camera from someone in the audience, took a picture of his crotch, and he said, explain that to the guy at the drugstore. And he made me want to do comedy.

Mike Binder. And then when I got to the comedy store, he was this mythic guy there. Like, you know, he hadn't been there in years, but he was like the golden boy. He was like the, you know, he was Mitzi Shore's pick to be the next big comedy star. He was at the comedy store when he was 20. I don't know how old he was. Maybe in his teens, 22. Way back when the original

crew was there he got all fucked up on drugs and pulled out but you know he went on to make pretty amazing movies uh coupe de ville crossing the bridge indian summer blank man the mind of the married man on hbo was his creation the upside of anger was his movie uh rain over me was his movie um but he you know he was one of those guys that during the beginning of the independent movie of Anger was his movie. Reign Over Me was his movie. But he was one of those guys that during the beginning of the independent movie thing, he was a guy writing and making his own movies. And now he's writing thrillers. But

to me, he was this young guy who was hilarious. So to get the whole story from Mike was really a treat for me. So let's go now to my conversation with Mike Byron. Based on the global best-selling novel by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive.

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I've wanted to have you on for a long time because I think, if I'm really remembering, I think you were one of the first guys I saw do stand-up on television. Oh, really? Is that possible? Probably, yeah. I mean, I started really young. I was on television when I was 18 years old.

So what year would that have been? Jesus. That's 74. No, 77. 77? Yeah. So I would have been like 14. Yeah, so I was 18.

You're only a few years older than me. Yeah, but I was 18 when I was on The Tonight Show and Merv Griffin. Right. I feel like it was Merv Griffin. Yeah, I was on that. I was on that about seven or eight times, you know. A day in Disneyland. That's right, yeah.

That's right. And I know that you, when I talked to you on the phone, that you were nervous that I would get hung up on this stand-up because it's so long ago. Well, no, it's not that. It's just that, you know, the people that are into the comedy store and the comedy store scene are so into it. And it's like, for me, it's such a small part of my life.

Right. Because I got there when I was 18, and I was gone when I was 26, you know? Right. Out of stand-up. Yeah. So it was like it was an extended college for me, you know what I mean? Yeah. And no, I wasn't completely out of, I was out of the comedy store when I was about 26

and I was out of standup probably when I was about 28 or 29, you know? It became one of those things where, know how many things can you do you right but let's let me just track it so where'd you grow up detroit in in the city in the city detroit seven mile in libanon yeah and what was that i lived a block from baker's keyboard lounge which was the world's oldest jazz club but when i was a kid I would drive my bike through the alley. And then one day I remember seeing that the marquee said, Comic Lenny Bruce. Come on. And I said to my dad, and this was probably 63, 64. So I was only five years old, six years old.

And I said, what is a Comic Lenny Bruce? Yeah. He said, that means comic. Yeah. And this guy's name is Lenny Bruce. I go, what is a comic Lenny Bruce? Yeah. He said, that means comic. Yeah. And this guy's name is Lenny Bruce. I go, what is a comic? He said, it's a guy who stands on stage and tells funny jokes. Yeah.

And I went, oh, I want to do that. That was it? Yeah, no, my dad told me that story. He goes, okay, that's what I want to do. Uh-huh. But Detroit was a great place to grow up. What kind of, what was your dad's business? My dad was a builder.

Yeah? He was a builder and he was a home builder and he ended up doing very well. You know, he was from poor Russian family and he ended up, you know, working through the generations of Detroit and did very well. Your grandparents were Russian immigrants, actually? Yeah, yeah. Jewish? Yeah. Everybody?

Yeah. Oh, yeah. So, yeah, I mean, I don't know why I assume that, but I always assume that. Yeah. With comedians. Yeah. It was a Jewish thing.

And, you know, I mean, nobody in my world or my family was in show business. Right. But my parents liked it. I'll tell you, there was a thing called the Children's Orthogenic School, which was like for underprivileged kids who had mental deficiencies. Right, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, and my parents became the fundraisers, and they would put on a big show every year for the Children's Orthogenic school at Fort Artorium and they would bring in the guests.

Yeah. So this was 69, 70, 68 in that area. And this was in another era of show business because like one year, Sonny and Cher were the headliners. Really? Yeah. And they had their own network show. Variety show.

And my mom and my dad and i picked them up at the airport i mean this wasn't limos and all that and i don't know if that was just detroit but right but they didn't seem oh you're picking us up you know so we pick them up and sonny was from detroit so he was really excited to be there and we dropped share at theartrain Hotel, and my mom and her go up because my mom wants to see all her wigs or whatever. I don't know. And my dad and Sonny and I go to a place called Lafayette Coney Island, downtown Detroit. Sonny has to have a Coney, which any Detroiter understands.

What is it, a hot dog? Yeah, it's a chili dog with mustard chili and onions. And Sonny looks out the window. There's construction in the middle of the street, downtown Detroit. And he gets out, and a guy comes out of the sewer. And Sonny yells, Uncle Baby! And Sonny goes in the middle of the street and hugs this guy that just came out of the sewer. It's his uncle.

So, I mean, so I was, and we brought in that's a good story lawrence and edie gourmet with their opening act was richard prior really and uh who bombed horribly and said all the did all these retarded kid jokes that oh really oh no he got himself in a lot of trouble you saw that oh yeah i was there i went to the airport what you, like 11 or 12? I was probably 11 at that time. So he wasn't quite the Richard Pryor that we know? No, he was total unknown. Right. He was an opening act for Steve Lawrence and Edie Gourmet.

And he felt horrible, and he had bombed. And I remember driving him in the car with him. But so early on, I kind of sensed that people in show business were different and unique. Yeah. And I liked how important they were to my parents. Right. You know, and.

How many kids in your family? There were four boys. Yeah? Four boys. And then my dad remarried and I had two stepsisters. So they got divorced? Yeah. My parents got divorced when I was young.

Yeah. Oh, really? Yeah. And did you stay in touch was young, yeah. Oh, really? Yeah. And did you stay in touch with everybody? Or you have good relationships with both of them? I can get any of them on the phone right now, I swear. It will not be a problem. All my brothers and sisters pick up the phone from me.

No, I'm the second. In the larger family, I'm the third. But between my brothers and I, I'm the second. So when did you decide to do comedy if you started that young? Oh, I was doing stand-up in high school. And I would go up to Ann Arbor and play clubs called the Pretzel Bell. And there was a place called the Delta Lady in Ferndale, Michigan. No comedy clubs yet at this time.

No, there were no comedy clubs. The fact the first comedy club, the first real comedy club was in Detroit at Mark Ridley's Comedy Castle, which I'm sure you know of. I don't know it. No, it's been there forever. It's still there? That was the first.

No, listen, in the big cities, there were the showcases. Right. Catch Rising Star. That was the first. No, listen. In the big cities, there were the showcases. Right. You know. Catch Rising Star. Catch and the Comedy Store and the Improv. And up in San Francisco, you could go up and you can get on at the Holy City Zoo. Holy City Zoo, yeah. But there hadn't been places that put a headline comic and really made a night of comedy. Right.

And we were all, all of us, Shanley, Gallagher, and Bruce Baum, and we were all on a show called Make Me Laugh, which came out at the perfect time. It was a syndicated show, and it came out at 11 p.m. at a time when everyone was tired of the news. It was right before the Iranian hostage situation. Yeah. And nobody watched the news for about a year.

It was just people. So there was this 11 o'clock strip show, and it was a big hit. Bobby Vance, right? Bobby Vance. Bobby Vance. Vance. Bobby Vance. And so Mark Ridley, this guy in Detroit, had the idea.

He called me. He said, look, why don't I do a club where, you know, you come in and then I'll have a couple, two locals open for you and it'll be a comedy club, just like the comedy store, only without 15 guys in a night, you know? And then it, there was one in Cleveland, a guy named Dino Vance and a couple of guys, Dino Vince and a couple of guys opened the Cleveland Comedy Club. And then it started to take off. There was Columbus and Pittsburgh, the Pittsburgh Comedy Club, which was managed by a guy named Jimmy Miller, who ended up becoming a huge- Dennis's brother.

Dennis's brother. And Dennis used to open for me in columbus at in cleveland at the cleveland comedy club which in fact that was dennis's first road gig when he's a prop act he was a huge prop act and we used to tease him about it you know it would take 30 minutes to set that damn act up you know and then he does it for 15 minutes and um but but he was his first road act was opening for me and then he opened for Coulier for a week, you know? So when you started doing it when you were like 16 or whatever, were you doing dinner clubs? You opening for musical acts?

No, when I first started, I would go into jazz clubs because that's what I read that Lenny Bruce used to do. Who were your heroes at that time? Who were you watching? Woody Allen. I wanted to be Woody Allen my whole life you had that record

I did too when I was younger the stand up year the stand up record is amazing I shot a moose I shot a moose and the moose

ate the Berkowitz's yeah yeah and so we we would I would go and I would take a friend of mine

we would go to a jazz club, and we'd say, hey, I'm a comedian. Yeah. And this was, there were no comedians at this time. This was in between, this was right before Steve Martin took off nationally, and it was in between Klein and Carlin and Cosby, and stand-up comedy had died.

Right. It just, there was a rumbling of it i didn't know of or i became aware of in new york with the catch rising star with the richard lewis and the ed bluestone and the david brenner and that but it was bluestone i haven't heard that name in a while yeah yeah and the improv was there too so so i would say can i go on and they'd say yeah comedian what the hell is that? And the audience didn't know how to react to me, you know. And some nights I'd get them and some nights I wouldn't.

You were like 17. I was 17. They must have been like, what's this kid doing up here? Yeah, yeah. No, it was fun. And sometimes they'd heckle me. One guy said, you're about as funny as my middle leg. You know, just like, it was like, and then I'd be downtown Detroit.

That's when I, when I really started to get funny. Yeah. Was when I'd be downtown Detroit playing to all black audiences and I would go, you know, okay, a little white boy here. It's time for a little white boy to teach you guys what funny is. Right. Record scratch, you know? Yeah. And, um, but it was good.

You know, I ended up getting, I, I, I would always go on stage to these all black audiences. And they'd be like, you know, we're going to eat you alive. Right. It's hard. I'd always end up get a huge applause at the end because they'd go, he got us, you know, and he worked his ass off. That's amazing. Yeah, because it's a it's it's a it's a different type of room. You better show up. You better do the job. That's amazing. Yeah. Because it's a different type of room. You better show up. You better do the job. Oh, yeah, yeah. And I was able to really just, you know, I would disarm them.

It was so different. And I did a lot of jokes about being downtown Detroit from the suburbs. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, but it was fun. And then at a certain point, I just, as soon as I graduated high school, I left. I drove out to California, you know. Yeah. And, you know, I ended up at the comedy store, you know, and I spent.

What year was that? It must have just been what? 77. Oh, okay. So she'd been at it for about four years. Yeah. Three or four years, but it was still the original crew. Yeah. They were four years, but it was still the original crew. Yeah.

They were the old guys. I was like the freshman when Robin Williams, Robin McClorum, when I first saw him. Really? And he was also from my hometown. Robin was? Yeah, Birmingham, Michigan. So we had a lot in common. He didn't always go by robin wayne no

first it was robin mcclurem that was his real name yeah i never knew that yeah and uh and who else was around david letterman was around he was a big bearded guy and uh and george miller and and uh tom dreeson and elaine boosler and ed bluestone yeah that was the crew and i and i well yeah but ollie joe at the time when I first got out here wasn't quite a comedian yet. He was just Ollie Prater. Yeah. And he was the doorman and he wasn't funny.

And one day he put a cowboy hat on and became Ollie Joe Prater and got funny, you know? He was just a door guy. Yeah, he was just a door guy. And I was a door guy. That was my job. Well, I was a door guy for a year. Yeah, I was a door guy and i was a door guy that was my job well that's i was a door guy for a year yeah there was a system in place my favorite story is i'm sitting standing in front

of the westwood comedy store one night we had just booked a sit you know sat the saturday show was packed yeah and a little car pulls up a little bumblebee guy gets out of the passenger seat he says there's a table for neil israel his name is at the door and he's drunk out of his mind he's just saying what he was told to say i go excuse me there's a table for neil israel and his name is at the door and i realize it's ringo star and he's drunk out of his mind. Right. So we seat him and he way at the back, this table with him and Neil Israel and their wives. And he starts to heckle the shit out of David Letterman, the young David Letterman.

Yeah. And Letterman just choose the guy up, choose the guy up. And the audience doesn't know that it's Ringo Starr. Does David? No, but he finally, Ringo tells him, Davis Ringo. And everyone goes, Ringo who? Ringo Starr.

Really? It's Ringo Starr? He goes, so you're going to fuck my career up like you fucked yours up? You know? Yeah. But it was a great time. he goes so you're gonna fuck my career up like you fucked yours up you know yeah and uh but uh it was a it was a great time you know again i was 18 years old and and what did they call you they call you uh kid comedy kid count you're then one night i'm there and norman lear comes up to me afterward didn't even know it was there yeah and he said hey i want you to call me tomorrow and it was norman lear at the time was

huge you know i mean he was jimmy walker around then yeah jimmy walker was around he was he was the one guy that was a star he was the only guy that was a star out of out of that young yeah he was so when he would come in it would be oh my god richard then richard started coming around again he had been gone for a few years uh-huh I was there, about two years, he started coming back. That must have been amazing to watch. Yeah, that was great. That was great. That was really special.

Did you ever tell him you saw him when you were a kid? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he knew the whole story and he remembered it completely. Oh, really? He didn't remember me being in the car, but he remembered the whole night. And years later, I was on this dinner with Steve Lawrence and Edie Gourmet right they remembered exactly they were like we were so mad at Richie we were so mad we had we had taken him everywhere and he

just he was horrible that night they remember they oh she remembered it she knew so what happened when Norman Lear I had to do a pilot i did a pilot for him called apple pie it was my first and i'd only been out in town less than a year and it was a network show that was very short-lived and um but it was with dick libertini and rue mcclanahan and Jack Guilford and Dabney Coleman. Wow. It was an incredible... And you were like 19? I was probably not 19 yet, you know. So you're out here in Hollywood and the

comedy store is like in its most exciting time probably. Jay Leno's around too, I imagine. Yeah, Jay Leno became like my older brother. He was one of my best friends. Really? After about... And you were a little out of control, right? Yeah, and that was the problem.

Jay was really, really, really great guy to me, but we had a parting of the ways. But I used to go to his house with him every night after the show, and we'd watch The Tonight Show and whoever was on it, and we'd play Risk, and they'd get up in the morning, call him, and come over, and we'd watch the tonight show and whoever was on and we'd play risk and and they'd get up in the morning calm and come over and we'd hang out all day right you know and i got sick i was i got very sick as a kid um i was doing a lot of drugs and i was eating a lot of garbage and i was away from home and i got a form of colitis and leno took me to the hospital

late one night and called my dad and you know i was in the hospital for about three weeks and he really took care of me and my because my father couldn't come out at the time yeah and uh they ended up becoming friends your dad and jay yeah and my dad loved old cars and had some old cars. So whenever he would come to Detroit, my dad would let Jay drive around these vintage cars around for his gigs. And they stayed friends until the day my dad died. That's sweet. But you didn't stay friends with him.

Yeah, I did. We had a phone out of the ways over the strike. You were there for that? Yeah, I was there for the strike. And I just didn't really understand it, you know. Because you were like 18. Yeah, it didn't make sense to me. It felt like everybody was just really mean to Mitzi. And they were playing Bud's Club and he wasn't paying anything either.

Right, yeah. So I was like, I was there all day shooting a movie. The other thing is I got this role in a CBS movie to play Alan Berski in the Freddie Prinze story. Because he couldn't get Berski to play Berski? Yeah, I know. Berski was always mad about it. But I made a mistake. I mean, I really...

Jay was such a good friend to mine and Tom Treason. And just one night, I just went on. I went, this is stupid. Mitzi talked me just one night i just went on i went this is stupid mitzi talked me into it i went on and i remember going outside and i could just see leno was so upset he goes they say you went on but i know you wouldn't do it i went oh i did i went on i just think the whole thing's stupid you didn't quite understand it i i made a mistake yeah i mean it was dumb it was probably the word the stupidest thing I ever did in my whole career. Was being a scab. Yeah. And it didn't hurt me, my career, in any way, because that wasn't really show business. That's what people found out either right away or never found out, that the comedy

store was not show business. It had nothing to do with show business. I remember years later, I was sitting on the set of a movie and someone from the comedy store called me and i just realized they're not they're not in the business this is the you know it's its own world you know but it was stupid of me but how many people so they at that and i also think you know at the time you gotta understand my father you know was this kind of entrepreneurial det Detroit guy who built himself up from nothing, who didn't have any sense of the unions. You know what I mean? He was not a union guy.

At the time, in his mind, the unions were destroying Detroit. Right. And so he was like, I'd call him, and I'd say, Dad, there's this thing, and Jay and Elaine Boozer, they're starting a union, and they don't want me well mitchie's been good to you i go i know i don't know what to do and i'm shooting the movie there just fuck these guys yeah fuck these guys yeah you know and it was you know he was a mistake because he didn't know what he was talking about and and i should have listened to jay and jay was

like really good to me yeah he was really really good to me as a young guy, you know? Yeah. And, um, I mean, we, we stayed friends and I would go on the tonight show when he was on and, you know, we never, we never fought,

but you could just see in his eyes, he was never as warm to me again, you know? It's interesting. Cause like that, that's a lot of people don't know about that strike. And I talk about the book a lot, you know,

the nodal sayer book, you know, I'm dying up here. I never saw it, but you know, it's's funny i know that there were i mean i people have told me what's in it i was i thought it was a pretty good book i was uh what have you heard i don't know i i just it's all about that it's i i was in london shooting upside of anger and and i'd shot like for 18 days and i promised him i'd do this interview. And I was sitting in Hyde Park for maybe two hours talking to him about a world that I didn't even remember, you know. Yeah.

And I remember thinking, I remember just talking about just the way I'm talking to you about it. Like at the time it was a big deal, but it was only a big deal to us. Nobody, it wasn't like... National News. Comedy was shut down this week. Yeah. Day 114 and the comedy shut down. No one cared.

It was just guys trying to get paid. And Mitzi was insisting that it was a workshop and didn't want to pay. Yeah, and in her defense, what it really was, and this is the truth, although I do say that it was stupid to cross a picket line of your peers i wouldn't do that today yeah but

it was also fueled on by a lot by the guy all the people that didn't get spots right you know all the people that it was in her mind it was a real meritocracy and the best comedians got the best spots right there were a lot of people that weren't getting good spots and said this is bullshit we got to bring her down and they came to hate her you know yeah and you know she said i'll pay you guys 35 bucks a spot and that wasn't good enough you know they want and and but they were striking from bud's club and bud wasn't paying anything either it was just the way it was. And, you know, it never bothered me that we weren't getting paid because I felt like it was just high school or just college.

And we were getting paid. We were learning and we were going to get paid up the road. And I felt most of the guy, you know, when the strike started, I spoke to Letterman about it, and he was like, I think it's stupid. I don't think anyone should get paid. This is a showcase. Right. And, you know, and Leno was one of the few guys,

Leno and Dreesen and Elaine Boosler. Elaine Boosler wanted to be Norma Rae. You know, it was like she was very passionate about it, but those three were the only real working comics that wanted to be Norma Rae. She was very passionate about it, but those three were the only real working comics that wanted to strike. Yes, they wanted to do what was right, but really a lot of them just wanted to tear her down. A lot of them, she was a very divisive character.

She had her favorites, and if you weren't one of them, she was evil, you know, which I understand, you know, listen again, like I say, my thing was, it was a great, you know, it was a great place to have gone through, but you stay there after a while. It means you failed. It doesn't mean you're succeeding. Yeah. It's a little dark.

Was it dark back then? Yeah, it was dark but jay used to say that to me and say you know they do you don't understand the goal is not to get in to the comedy store and be a regular and stay there the role is the the goal is to get the hell out of the comedy store right you know and and a lot of these guys didn't see it that way. And I was really lucky. I was very lucky in the sense that, number one, Make Me Laugh took me on the road. Yeah. Playing the comedy clubs and also opening for big names. Comics and musicians?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, never for comics opening. But I would open for Kenny Loggins. That was the gig, wasn't it yeah yeah yeah because there was no comedy club so you get on those concerts be on the road and you know i went out on the road with andy williams one summer really yeah and you know i think mitzi used used to live in his old house no she lived down the street from him oh from andy williams two houses

away but uh so were you like part of the family though i mean mitzi really took a liking to you yeah you hang out the house yeah who was she dating like steve landisberg at the time yeah that's right and i also took care of paulie and peter during the day as one of my first jobs did you babysit yeah but again when you run into any of the shores when you run in they talk about the strike as if it was you know i had this guy i'm not gonna say his name but he came over to my office not and he had wanted to show me old photos and books yeah and he we changed history we were at the apex do you realize and i just no we didn't we didn't honestly i'm sorry but but the strike us that time period no time period, no, it was the pinnacle of American comedy.

I don't know. No. You know what the one thing is? Is that the door deal in the store, in the main room, still holds. So on a good night, you can make a couple hundred bucks. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right. It was great.

And actually, she had agreed to do that, but they still wanted a strike. Did you know LeBitkin? Yeah, sure. And he was an unstable guy anyways, huh? I never saw it like that. I never saw it like that. But obviously, when you jump off a hotel building, you're unstable.

You know, stable guys actually just check into the hotel and go to sleep. You know, the unstable ones jump off the roof i mean especially yeah especially when you're jumping off because you're not getting spots at the comedy store it's a problem all right you know i mean and they wanted to turn labetkin into a living legend or a hero a martyr but the fact is i'm sorry you know you you know when when you know your homeland is taken over maybe then you light yourself on fire and you know but when you don't get spots at a local comedy club it's you know the jumping off a building is a decision you made to end your life and i'm not going to turn you into any great hero you know because you are you're a little unstable right and but he was

a great guy i mean i mean i didn't know him well but he was always nice to me but but i never saw it as i saw it as like why would you do that over the strike yeah you know i've always felt that you know whenever listen i've had some suicide in my family you know and and the best line when i and there's a great a line you kill yourself you five down five years you killed the wrong guy yeah if you kill yourself in the first five years of sobriety you're killing the wrong well steve labedkin if he had lived four days he would have realized he killed the wrong guy right you know that was not that that was not a good reason you know unless there was other stuff going on right which we never know you know when someone kills himself god bless them because you just don't know but but but in terms of people were saying he did it to shine a light on the injustice at the comedy

store and i was like that's the wrong light yeah yeah you know well yeah it haunted that place forever so you're doing the comedy, the make me laugh thing happened, so now you're getting work, you're making a living in show business. Yeah. Can you just substantiate some story? Was there a story

where you were on the roof of the comedy store and you pulled a billboard down? Yeah. What was that? That was funny. There was a guy right across the street from the comedy store. It was in a different era. I don't think he could do this anyway but he bought an ad

it was an actor and he bought a he bought the billboard of himself you know dan davis yeah actor yeah and it was him and he was in his head stuck above the billboard and we went out in the middle of the night and we tied a rope around his head and we sawed it all the head off just enough so that a good tug it would come off and had the rope across string and and and you know had the audience go to the window and we all pulled the rope and just pulled the guy's head right off yeah it was the billboard just was driving me crazy i was doing like 10 minutes a night on the fact that a guy look at this guy and the original room you could see it yeah you can see out of the window you know and everybody

waiting in line saw it coming in so they they knew dan davis it was a great piece and it just built to the point where harris pete and i rigged rigged rigged this thing up and we pulled this guy's from across the street yeah we were and blake harris, Blake Clark, and I, we climbed up during the day. And thank God one of us didn't fall. Yeah, yeah. It was crazy, but it was a fun time. That was a good performance piece. Yeah, it was great.

So when did you, because your career is so varied, and you've had a long one, and you've done a lot of amazing things. So what is that moment like where did the cleaning up coincide with stopping comedy? Yeah. It did. I was playing the clubs and traveling and when I was about 25,

I was doing a lot of drugs and alcohol. Did you know a comedian named Jesse Aragon? Maybe his picture. I knew Harris briefly because I was a doorman in 87 like i got there like late so like yeah yeah so your generation was already like a mythology you know like you guys established the mythology of the place but it still sort of operated that way and harris was stored was sort of still around and blake was still around but they were you know in

their 40s yeah well we uh jesse aragon jesse got was the first guy that got sober in aa and and i was in town and i needed some pot or something yeah i'm sober how'd you do that and he took me to an aa meeting and i didn't like it and uh some guys followed me out and said what's the problem you know and i and I said, well, first of all, I'm a Jew, and you have your meetings in churches. Right. So we'll start from there. Second of all, I'm not really sure.

I don't want to smoke pot. I just don't want to drink anymore. Do blow? I don't know. But the fact is it started to work for me. Yeah. I started going to these Uncle John's Men's Pancake House luncheons on the west side.

Yeah. And guys were funny. And I got sober and, you know, I just went off the road. And the other side thing that took me away from comedy was the fact that I was getting acting work. And I also wrote, I had done a special for HBO, which really cut my ties completely with the comedy store. I did a concert in Detroit with me, Dave Coulier, Paul Rodriguez, and Howie Mandel. So it was a comedy special. It was called the Detroit Comedy Jam.

But first it was just a live series of concerts we did, which did very well. And you produced it? I produced it. I put it all together and but it was first it was just a live series of concerts we did which did very well and you produced it i produced it i put it all together and and hosted it yeah and chris albrecht was my agent at the time at icm chris albrecht who actually started as a doorman at the improv that's right new york in new york yeah went on to head hbo yeah but first he went on to become an agent at ICM and handled a lot of comedians. And I brought him back to show him this big show we did, and he said, let's do this as a special. And it was an HBO special called The Detroit Comedy Jam, and Mitzi was like, that's my shit you're doing.

I go, what, guys with a microphone? I don't understand. What part is yours? It's in Detroit. It's in a concert hall. Well, you shouldn't be a producer. You should just be a comedian and let me produce that. I said, well, okay.

And so apparently she hated me for that for a long time. Oh, really? That was it? Yeah, that was it. That's interesting. so i did this thing called the detroit comedy jam and then i did the guy that bought the specials from hbo at the time and took him to colleges was a guy um i'm bumming i'm bummed that i'm breaking his name because he was such a great guy but he he also, he ran Columbia TriStar Home Video.

And he would make little independent movies and he made Sex, Lies, and Videotape and Drugstore Cowboy. His name's gonna come back to me. I'm just blanking. It was one of those brain farts. But anyway, he had sold my special to HBO. I wrote a script called The Bridge, which was me and my friends growing

up in Detroit in the early 70s, getting into some trouble. It was a real coming of age piece. And Bobby took it to this guy and he said, if you want to make it for $3 million, I'll let you make this movie. And he gave me $3 million through Bobby Neumeier, the guy who did Sex, Lies, and Videotape. Yeah. And we went to Minneapolis, and we kind of recreated my childhood. Yeah.

And you wrote the script. I wrote the script, and I directed the movie. It was a little $3 million movie, and Josh Charles was the star. He played me, and Stephen Baldwin was in it, and it became Crossing the Bridge and Touchstone bought it, Disney bought it. Yeah.

And that kind of changed my life in the sense that it was a little movie. It didn't make any money. It got great reviews. Right. But it got me going. You know, Jeffrey Katzenberg said, what do you want to do next?

And I said, I want to do this piece about my childhood at camp up in canada katzenberg and eisner watched my movie late one night at at eisner's house and said this is our childhood you know let's buy this oh right and they bought it and then i went into a meeting with him and said what do you want to do next i said i want to do this thing called indian summer and that was a big movie for you i mean that was a big movie you had amazing cast yeah and those did well it was like for you know it was like the number two or three movie for two weeks in a row which at the time was a big deal it was

at a time when touchstone was trying for a lot of singles and doubles and weren't doing big movies right it was a program that they quickly discarded yeah but again i made the movie for nine million it made like maybe 30 million or something for how did you get on your feet with all that stuff around you know directing and and and producing i mean you just took to it or did you hire good ads who know you know i had i had written this movie called coupe de ville that was the other i skipped that so i was cleaned up, stopped doing standup. Did you miss it? Not, at first I did. Yeah. At first I did, but I didn't want to be in the clubs until I felt

really good and stable. But I was writing and I always, from day one, I was always writing screenplays. I wrote so many of them. And I wrote this script based on a true story in my family about my dad and his two brothers taking a Cadillac down to Florida. And Larry Bresner, who was Robin's manager, who I knew through Robin, read it and helped me get it made. And he really godfathered my whole career. He really became my mentor. And he really, he got the movie made. You know, a guy named Joe Roth directed it, who ended up becoming a big head of the studios. That was Coop DeVille.

That was Coop DeVille. So I had had to produce screenplay. Right. And then I wrote this other one, which was another three guys in a car. Stephen Baldwin, Jason Gedrick, and Josh Charles, and growing up in Detroit. And it was really an era.

And I got it made, and like I said, Katzenberg and growing up in Detroit. And it was really an era. And I got it made. And like I said, Katzenberg and Eisner liked it. So they gave me a big deal at Disney, which that- And you directed that one though. That was good. I directed the second one. It became Crossing the Bridge. And how did you learn how to direct?

You don't. You're just bullshit. You're just bullshit.'re just bullshit you know you get a good ad i was on the set of coupe de ville and i watched joe roth and i thought if this guy can do it i can do it right you know and and and i got a good ad and i got bobby was a good producer yeah he had worked with first-time directors and he got me a really great i mean my dp the director of photography was a guy named tom siegel who went who had a good dp that's important he became thomas newton siegel yeah and then and he became a big time dp he's a he is a big time well those are the guys that really like

as a director i don't know why i was saying ad but the dp he's the guy where you go well this is what i want he's like all right we can do it from here and from here, and then we'll do that one. Right. Okay, good. That's right. So the truth is, you can direct if you admit you don't know what you're doing. Right. And that's what Bobby and Sharon Bialy, my first casting director who's still casting every movie I've ever done,

they said, don't pretend you know what you're doing. Just ask for help. And so I did. And I just made the movie. And then this Indian summer, we went back up to my old summer camp. And Sam Raimi, who was a kid in my cabin, was one of the stars of the movie. And it was really, it was just, again, I spent the first few years just recreating my life, you know, in sequence.

That Sam Raimi was a childhood friend of yours? Oh, yeah. Sam and I were friends since we were little kids. We still are to this day. He's one of my best friends. He's a good director. Yeah, he's a good director. Do you guys talk about that stuff?

About what stuff? Directing? Yeah, we talk about how much more successful he is than I am, how much more money he has. But you're still friends that's yeah yeah you know yeah I you know and he was great in the movie yeah he played a this weirdo maintenance guy that we we kind of knew he was aping a guy we knew oh it was brilliant you know him and Alan Arkin did these incredible

physical scenes together and that must been amazing working with Arkin did these incredible physical scenes together. That must have been amazing working with Arkin, just second time out directing. Well, he was in my first movie that I wrote, Coop DeVille. Oh, he was in Coop DeVille. He was in Coop DeVille, and he was in Indian Summer. He's hilarious, man. He's hilarious.

He's an incredible guy. So anyway, by that point, I had to say, okay, you know, what happened was I got another HBO special out of my special, a one-night stand they wanted me to do, you know, and I got a gig opening for, I believe, the Pointer Sisters at Caesar's Palace. Uh-huh. And at the same time, I was prepping this movie you know and and i i did the one night stand and i did caesar's palace but

there was a it's funny and the one night stand i shot it in in chicago they would do two one night stands in one night at these little concert clubs. Was it an hour or a half hour? It was a half hour. So Ellen DeGeneres did a half hour and I did a half hour. And I just, between that and then I had to go back to Vegas and then I had to go and prep this movie. And it was too much. I was stressed out. And again, I didn't want to drink.

So something had to go. So I, I, the last standup I ever really did other than a benefit with Jay for Charlie Hill, the last time I ever did in my life was Caesar's Palace. You know, I played Caesar's Palace with the Pointer Sisters and, and it was good. And I did that one hour, that half hour HBO thing. And I just said, And it was good, and I did that one hour, that half hour HBO thing. And I just said, okay, you know, I'm not that good at it. You know, I mean, I'm basically doing the same act I always was. And if I go with the movies, I think I have a chance to really, you know.

Be creative. Be creative and do a new thing every year. And I made a conscious decision, and I was probably 28 or 29 years old at the time and i just i never did it again you know and i i it was such a big part of my life that i thought it was going to be hard to quit you know because it becomes a drug that need to get up every night exactly get up did you get i'm going out can i get up yeah you know and to the point of years later i'd go into comedy clubs yeah and i'd be sitting in the back and that someone would come up with the owner wants to know if you want to get up no i'd say i'm just you know i do you want to get up yeah you know and i just i was like no i really

when when you get far enough away from it it's alien again to get on stage so and probably terrifying well the other thing that really became great was i would go to see comedy shows even in that quick time after i quit and go yeah he's funny oh yeah oh i wish that's a good joke yeah and but after a couple years i'd be there laughing my ass off with the crowd. And I forgot how great it was to love comedy. Right. You get cynical, yeah. Because, you know,

I remember some of the magician friends I had, they just watch it and look at how the trick's done. Yeah. And that's what happens, you know. And I got back into this thing where I'm a great audience member. Yeah. I laugh my ass off at a funny comedian. Yeah. And I got that back. Oh, I'm a great audience member yeah I laughed my ass off at

a funny comedian yeah and I got that back oh that's a gift there's a you know so you know again so by the time I was 30 you know I was making a movie every year I was I was doing things and I didn't miss it at all and and it was also I guess really the only stand-up that I stayed really good friends with was Tim Allen and Dave Coulier. Yeah. Because they were Detroit guys, you know? How's Tim doing? Tim's doing really good. Good.

Yeah, we just went down to the opening of the Broad together. Oh, how was that place? Beautiful? It's beautiful, yeah. Eli Broad is my godfather. He is? Yeah, he's from Detroit too. And he was my dad's best friend growing up all

his whole life and so i know him very well and he's still around he's still around and he this is his collection yeah is that the idea he basically gave a billion dollar gift to the city of los angeles did he live out here he lived out here for many years he still does and he was friends with your your father growing up yeah and so he's got this so you knew you knew a lot of the art from his house oh yeah yeah oh yeah i've known i'm i've i know them very well i've traveled with them and yeah and i mean they're very they're part of our family you know and you you have kids yeah i do how many i have a 21 year old son and a 22 year old daughter wow yeah from uh are you married to the same yeah mom same mom i've been married to the same woman for 28 years that's amazing yeah well congratulations

on that thanks yeah it's great i've been sober 31 years that's incredible man and um you know i met her at the bank where the comedy store writes the checks on. And I'd come in all messed up. To cash the check? To cash the check. You know, can I see the manager? It's bullshit. What are you bouncing my checks for? And then this 20-year-old blonde manager would come over.

She was so hot. But she was such a bitch. And I used to call her the bitch at the bank. And I actually moved to another branch so hot yeah but she was such a bitch yeah and i used to call her the bitch at the bank yeah you know and and i actually moved to another branch because this woman was so hard on me yeah and i i just had this total crush on her but she was but i was a screw-up yeah i was a screw-up i mean i was all my checks were for 90 to the same person person. Right. Figure that out, you know? And Domino's pizza.

That was it. And she would look through these and she'd go, Mr. Binder, you know, you got to keep money in your account if you're writing these checks. And she could just see. She knew. Yeah, yeah. And I got sober and I ran into her at an AA meeting.

And she had been sober a few years longer than me. And she just knew me as a deadbeat at the bank. But she was like, I am so glad you got sober. And we started dating. And I married the bitch at the bank. That's sweet. Yeah, it's great. But the number of movies you made is pretty astounding to me.

I mean, you made a lot of movies. Yeah, and a couple of them are good. No, no, that's the thing. I mean, I really had to flounder because I didn't have any training. And I didn't really, all I knew was Woody Allen and those guys. But it's been a real great experience making movies because it's like doing an hour and then you get it and you you get it done and then you start over with nothing again every year right but but like

the like the directors i've talked to and like the the process of it it's you know that you're all in for a couple years yeah yeah you know i listen some of them take five, six years to get made. Some of them, I write a lot of scripts in a lot of them. But by the time you know you're going to make it, you're all in for a year. It's a year. Now, when you do, like, you wrote Blank Man? No, I didn't. Blank Man was an aberration.

It's the only movie I've ever done that I didn't write. You just directed it? Yeah, and Damon and I were friends from the comedy store. He used to only movie I've ever done that I didn't write. You just directed it? Yeah. Damon and I were friends from the comedy store. He used to be so good, didn't he? He still is. Yeah. He still is, man. He's a great stand-up comic.

When I was a doorman there, he would come in and just do this free-form shit. Oh, he was brilliant. And what happened was after Indian Summer, I had gotten, Disney wanted me to do another movie. And that weekend, I ran into Damon at the theater. He was there watching the movie. And he said, do you want to do this Blank Man? And it was like a Batman parody. Yeah, yeah, I remember.

And I loved Batman growing up. And Sam had just done Dark Man. Right. You know? And so I said, yeah. And my agent, Jim Berkers at the time said, this is going to kill your career. And I said, it's not my movie. I'm producing a friend's, it's like producing a friend's album. Yeah. How could, how, why am I going to, if it doesn't do

well, it's his fault. Right. And I said, we're going to make it funny as hell. He said, it's going to kill you. And Jeff Katzenberg he had jeff katzenberg called me and said don't do this don't do and i said look i want to work with damon i gave him a year in my life it was the best year comedy we got he david alan greer and i we laughed our ass off we made a movie that tested through the roof that sony thought was going to be a huge hit and damon was really funny in it and it was a really good version of that thing and a batman spoof and um it bombed yeah and i i couldn't get a movie made for three years it killed my career and my agent was i told you so you know did he stay your agent yeah and then you come back with one of your own movies or no? Yeah, no, then I made a little small little movie.

I had to kind of reinvent myself. I made this little movie called Sex Monster with myself as the star and Mariel Hemingway. I made it for $600,000. Yeah. And that kind of got me going again. Did anyone go see it? I don't know if anyone went and saw it,

but I don't even think it was released. I think HBO bought it as well. It went up to the Aspen... Yeah, Comedy and Arts Festival. Right, and it won Best Picture, and I won Best Actor, and Chris Albrecht said, you gotta do a show for us,

which became Mind of the Married Man. Yeah, I like that show. So they bought that movie, and they bought the show and so that's what it it never really it never really was in theaters

but it helped me a lot and it changed my you know it kind of moved me to another direction and I worked on the show which to me was just little movies

you know yeah and I had total creative control what happened to that? How many of you did what? Two seasons? Two seasons, yeah.

With Bobby Slayton? Bobby Slayton was great in it. He was great in it. Yeah. He still wishes it was going. Slayton, he said me the funniest thing when the show got canceled, he wrote me a note.

Binder, thanks for having me in your show. In retrospect, a little more of me, a little less of you, we'd still be on the air. Slayton. What happened with that show? I don't know. You know, I mean, the show was a little snake bit from the get-go.

You know, I mean, we aired Tuesday, September 11th, 2001. Okay. I was on the air. We were in New York. We had a premiere party September 10th in New York City. And the morning I got up on September 11th, and I go on. I'm sitting with Diane Sawyer on the air

showing clips from the show that airs tonight. And in the middle of my interview, she says, excuse me, but we're going to break away to a news thing now and the news is charles gibson saying that a small planes hit the world trade center you're on the air on the panel on a show on good morning america before they knew what was happening yeah yeah and uh and yeah they actually still show that interview on the anniversaries of... Oh, really? For ABC, Good Morning America,

where they take you back and show you. And Diane Sawyer, you know, so the show came out, and, you know, it was one of those things that was supposed to be a male sex in the city, and it was very real, but a lot of women had problems with it, and a lot of guys had problems with it. Like, why are you talking about it? Yeah, it. Like, why are you talking about it?

Yeah, there was that, why are you talking about it? And this ain't, or the other group was, this ain't, that ain't me. This is puerile. This is juvenile. And you know,

it's like, what I learned from that show, because we did good work. It was really good actors and Bruce Paltrow directed it. I mean, it was, we did good. A married man, white man's sexuality is the third rail of American comedy.

In fact, any married man. Chris Rock did this thing, I Think I Love My Wife. I went, you're dead. I ran into him at a premiere of one of my movies. He told me that was the title. I said, change and that movie's not gonna work because women don't want to see a movie about a married guy that wants to fuck someone other than their wife right and they don't want that you can't go you don't go with in packs with your friends to see that and the wives don't go oh that he just wanted to go see that movie with the guys all fuck masseuses yeah they don't they whereas we don't guys go okay sex in the city

movie you guys all went and you had fun and and the and right the girls all got laid by studs that's fine yeah that's just come home on time you know we don't care yeah but guys would tell me i have to pretend i'm asleep when my wife walks in the room when mine and the mary's on man is on or else we're gonna get in a fight talking about do you think that way do you you know no shit so it couldn't go either way yeah so it's it's just not a you know and just in general anytime you've tried to do that kind of anyone who does that kind of horny men thing you know so we were you know listen our ratings were really good you know and some people like this and some people hated us you know and it was also as a time at HBO that they really started getting into star fucking

and they really they had want they bought some really expensive shows. So they didn't have the money to do a third season, but they hired me to write it. And I went off and did Upside of Anger. Was that the one with Kevin Costner? Yeah. That did all right, right? Yeah, it did very well. Yeah.

And you were in it? Yeah, yeah. Did you play a sleazy guy? Yeah, I played a sleazy guy. With the mustache? Yeah. Yeah, that's funny. Yeah.

That's right. play a sleazy guy yeah i played a sleazy guy with a mustache yeah yeah that's funny yeah that's right and um and you know when i came back chris was like okay maybe we should do a third season and he hemmed and hawed and i started this movie with uh ben affleck called man about town and by the time that was done you know they take a year it just it was too far away you know a lot of the actors had series and so that's what happened you know it just it was one of those shows that either you loved it or you hated it and the people that hated it were really loud about hating it men and women yeah it was a lot of a lot of our biggest problems were men reviewers keep your mouth shut it wasn't that there were a few of those but there were a lot of these guys

that just, you know, that don't have that camaraderie with other guys and they don't sit around and talk about pussy. Yeah. Guys don't talk like that. Yeah.

This is just his, you know, these are sick guys, you know, and the truth is, a lot of guys do. Guys would, I would be out running. Yeah. And I'd see a guy park a car.

He'd pull me over and he'd run alongside me and go, dude, you're giving away all the secrets. You know? And I had more guys, you know, tell me that. And I also found it to be a good Rorschach test. Uh-huh. The people, when I would run into a married couple and they watched it and liked it and there were a lot of them yeah i always knew they had a good marriage right you know because my wife she didn't understand she go what why are people why do women get so upset you don't you think i don't know that

he thinks like this yeah yeah you think i don't know the way these guys behave when we're not around yeah you know so anyway it was uh you know listen it should have it should have gone longer but it was perfect for me because it was time for me to move on again you know it was like i say upside of anger really helped me out a lot and then i made this movie with ben affleck and then I made Rain Over Me with Adam Sandler. That was a 9-11 movie. That was more or less a 9-11 movie. Aftermath. It was like about a story

of what happened three years later. And it had to do with the fact that I was there that night and on the streets with people covered with dust and sitting around telling stories on curbs about what they'd seen. And then I came back about a year and a half later with my family and i thought man because there were some people that night walking

the streets of 2001 that were you could tell you just look at them and go their lives are ruined someone they lost somebody they were just they were just mumbling yeah i was saying i lived in astoria then it was devastating of the weeks after with the pictures everywhere it was devastating smell and that so about a year and a half later i was there and i thought i wonder there are probably some people still wandering these streets that that night never ended for and i just wrote this piece and i wasn't going to do with tom cruise and javier bardem and tom wanted to do it and Javier wanted to do it and whatever happened, it ended up Adam Sandler and Don Cheadle, which was fine.

And we had a great time making it and it was a very tough movie and we showed it to the surviving families, the groups, and they loved it. And Adam was really quite good in it. With anyone else in it, it would have been, people would say it did really good. You know, it made $24, $25 million.

I make my movies small. Yeah. But Adam's $24, $25 million Adam Sandler movie is a bomb, you know? But it was a different type of movie for him. Yeah, yeah, and he knew that, but he took it so personally yeah yeah yeah yeah and um i mean i was just talking to this about somebody because i think he was really good in all those kind of movies he did but because none of them were big box office bomb bonnet you know hits yes he kind of turned back to his jack and jill yeah zardoz and yeah you know whatever that yeah you know and and i think he just said fuck it i'm safe here and this is what my fans want and i think he could

really have been like tom hanks i think he's that's how talented that guy is yeah you know he's really he really didn't want to go that direction. And by the time he did, he tried a few other things. They just didn't work. So that movie did all right. It was a little heavy. I remember I didn't see it because I thought it was heavy. It did all right. It did all right.

But the interesting thing about all these movies, not just my movies, but they have these incredible afterlifes now yeah so it's almost like a book and and the the the audience the theatrical release is just a way to get the publicity out i mean i just did this movie black or white with kevin costner which i think between canada and and america did 25 million million at the box office. We made it for seven. But it's doing so well on Netflix and iTunes and Amazon.

People are coming up to me all the time talking about that movie. And it'll be around forever. I got a text last night from some guy who said, I watched the movie, and then we went and ran it upside of anger. So in the old days, you didn't have that. If the movie didn't work, the movie and then we went and ran it upside of anger you know so in the old days you didn't have that right if the movie didn't work the movie didn't work and maybe it would play on hbo late at night or or you know but now the movie comes out and within a month it's going everywhere around the world and people can watch it on their big screens at home

and i mean we've made a lot more money on black or white than we made at the box office already in television isn't that amazing yeah so that they have the whole paradigm is shifting and it just kind of and it didn't it didn't lose money but it seems like none of your movies they seem to do all right he's ever lose money yeah because again i made that movie for nine million dollars louisiana gave us two million back kevin put up most the money kevin and i own that movie yeah he obviously owns a lot more than i do but we own the movie forever you know and and you know it's just a new you're as you say a paradigm and believe, within a blink, within the most two years, movies will come out, same date, same place,

everywhere in the world, everywhere you can buy a movie. Just like an album. Yeah. You know, Beyonce puts out an album. You can buy it anywhere in the world online. But a movie, there's still this antiquated distribution where it doesn't come to Canton, Ohio for six months. And it doesn't go to Belgrade,

and doesn't, you know, Belfast for three years sometimes. And that's, the internet has made the world so small. But you're not hung up on the theater experience? I'm not at all. Not one bit. I mean, people, I like the idea that eventually a movie will come out in the theater and you can go that opening weekend or for the opening weekend, you can pay a premium and watch it on iTunes for 49 bucks.

Right. You know? With the family. With the family. Which would be about a night. Yeah, a little bit. Yeah. And then eventually that price will come down and it'll come out of the theaters, but it'll with the family with the family which would be uh cheaper yeah a little bit yeah and then

eventually that price will come down and it'll come out of the theaters but it'll open in the whole world and you can watch it on your ipad or your phone anywhere you anywhere anytime and that's what we're getting to and for me i have no i honestly i i can tell you that I've had great experiences in my sitting room with my wife and kids watching movies that are just as good as going out to the theater. And then I like to go to the theater sometime. But it really has nothing to do with the size of the movie or how. It really is, you know, sometimes. What's your work ethic, man? Because, like, you, like, you know, I talk to writers and I got my own problems with writing, ethic man because like you like you know i talk

to writers and i got my own problems with writing but it seems like you can't help yourself i mean you know i i didn't know what we were going to talk about and i knew we're going to talk about movies and comedy but then you send me a book you write a novel i have a novel coming out february 1st is that your first novel yes my first novel you just can't you can't stop working no it's really sad well no it's not it's it's a it's a pretty good compulsion to have it's really funny i went to aspen this weekend for this con this charlie rose uh yeah weekend that he has and i got was lucky enough to fly in a private plane on the way back with these people and i after about 20 minutes i said i'm gonna go back and write and the guy who's a builder

said yeah he did that on the way out here. I said, yeah. He goes, are you under some heavy deadline? I went, no, I'm a neurotic. Yeah. You know? Yeah. I have to write every day.

Yeah, you do. Yeah. That's a fucking gift. It's a gift. I've really, you know, it's been a great gift for me. First of all, I mean, it's a God-given gift. I really, I don't take it for granted yeah and then i always have an idea yeah oh i've never run out of ideas that's a lot

like woody allen i've always had i've had so many scripts in the drawer that i finished and i'll do another rewrite and i write every day and you like it i do i love it i love it i write every day it's a little bit of a torture because it's like sometimes it's like a shit that won't come out. Right. You just got to squeeze. Yeah, yeah. And you got to really work it, you know. And sometimes they come out like just, you know, like black or white.

I had that idea in my head for eight years. I had that idea in my head for eight years. It was based on a true story that tangentially affected my life and the fact that my wife had this nephew, a biracial kid named Sean, who we just loved, whose mother died. He had us up in Santa Monica, his family up there, and the family down in South Central. And I always thought that'd be a great story to tell a little kid and do a custody battle, which we didn't have.

And it rolled around in my head for years, and when I went to write it, it took three weeks. And Costner just went, okay, we're doing it this summer. And sometimes they come out like that. And sometimes it's, it's a struggle, but I always have an idea. I always, and I get up every morning, you know, I get up and I have some quiet time and some prayer and meditation and, and I get it together, you know, and I, I spend three to four hours writing and, and it's noon. You know, and then I'm done. Right. And, and, you know,

and then I, you know, I put some serious time into masturbation. Sure. Which makes sense. You got to keep that, those two things.

That's what keeps you young, Ernest Borgnine. You know? Yeah. But, no, you know, I mean,

I have the whole day, basically, and business stuff, unless I'm shooting. I don't write when I'm shooting. Do you have a movie in the works now? do i'm i'm actually uh i have two movies in the works but i have this novel coming out yeah i'll keep calm and it's a thriller it's a thriller and and and i'm making a movie with new line with chuck roven and alex gartner at atlas are producing it and these are the guys that did the dark night and who's

that who you got signed up for stars well we're just putting it together now so i don't want to say it sounds like a big movie it is a big movie it's like a 60 million dollar action film holy shit so it's different for me that's the biggest movie you've done huh yeah yeah it's big and but it's also the book is a real departure for me the is, it's an American who's at number 10 Downing Street and a bomb goes off and he's framed for it and he realizes right away once it goes off, that's why I was invited. Because he's got a past that would say,

they're going to blame him. You'd make him a suspect. They're going to blame him on me. And now before tonight, by the end of the night, they're going to kill me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then it's just going to be me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then it's just going to be this guy, this nut did it.

Right. And so it's him trying to figure out how to stay alive while a young inspector in SO-16, which is the anti-terror, this young girl is chasing him across England because she knows he didn't do it. And she knows there's something behind it. So you could get a real action guy for this. Oh, yeah, yeah, I will. And the young woman inspector, Steel, is a great character, which it's going to be a trilogy.

I've already got all three stories. It's a newborn identity. Yeah, and the girl... So the guy's going to run for three... No, no, no, he doesn't run for three uh no no no he doesn't run for three years he gets he gets to sit down for a minute okay but uh but yeah it's and so i'm working on that and you know i just i'm just really lucky like you say i've always got the next thing coming out and uh i just wrote a script for reese witherspoon based on a book that she

loved called napkin notes now she reached out to you I think she did yeah it's amazing to me because like the reason like I like to talk about about comedy and just about your place in my mind is that you know you you lock people in and I think that's sort of the the fear of of staying in comedy on one level and also how you're perceived right and you know I talked to a lot of guys that, you know, started in comedy, but it's rare, you're rare, that, you know, went on to do this, all these amazing things. And I don't think, I think you have to attach some of it

to the introduction into show business is through comedy. That's right. You know, it's sort of interesting how everyone's going to do their career and now how they're going to make the break, you know? I think so. You know, I mean, by the same token, I just, I've just, it's been an evolving journey for me that I would like to now, I actually, I really like writing novels. You know, I'd like to create some television shows.

I'm working on Ray Donovan now, you know, and- As what? As a writer. Uh-huh. And I'd like to get into that world a little bit. You'll still do staff writing or you're doing, you know, you, you, you, you're on staff over there. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. I've never done it, but I'm doing it. Yeah. And, um, I did it for about eight weeks on, uh, one of Chuck Lorre's sitcoms and realized that I had to get the hell

out real fast. Which one? Mom. Yeah. I mean, the writers were brilliant, but, you know, that whole Chuck Lorre world is a piece of work. Well, do you like writing comedy? No. Right. No, I didn't like that, but they were geniuses.

Yeah. They were incredible. And so when they called me about Ray Donovan, I was first like, oh, I already tried this. But I love the show, and I thought, okay, this is a little bit more in the type of show I would create if I did a show. Right. But, you know, so I just see it as evolving

to the books and more movies, and, you know, eventually, you know, I just, I don't want to stay at one place, and it might have i probably would have been more successful if i just did one thing over and over again with maybe one kind of movie or whatever but by the same token you know it's really hard for me to do something unless i love it yeah you know i'm sure you understand that it's, it's a horrible thing to have to do something. It's not why we signed up for this.

Also, when I'm looking at you, you know, you've created this whole world for yourself. You've created your show and you do your stand-up and you just do your own shit. Yeah. And for me, I'm better off just doing my own shit. Right. You know? Yeah. And so it just makes sense but i can't do it unless it's

like okay yeah i i i'm really into this i'm really into this right yeah and but do you ever get to that point though where you've gotten yourself into something and you just overwhelmed like it sounded to me like when you had to let go of comedy there's that time where you just just stretch too thin and you just gotta you gotta pick, there's that time where you just stretch too thin, and you just got to pick it. There's only so much bandwidth. I don't care who you are. I don't care who you are.

And that's why I think guys like Woody Allen have been really smart. You know, it's always funny. I'm friends with Albert Brooks. I'll tell him to come on the show already, will you? He's never coming on the show. All right. But we go for walks. No offense, but he just...

He doesn't like to talk about himself. Yeah. We go for walks in the neighborhood. He's very smart. I say, why aren't you doing another Albert Brooks movie? And Netflix, Amazon, anyone would let you make a movie. Concentrating on the acting thing. He understands he's only got so much bandwidth.

Right. And I've come to those places in my life, and one of the things that I've been good at is when I get a green light and I start a movie, that's all I work on for the duration of the movie. You know, when I get back and I'm in the editing room, I'm writing something else. But while I'm making the movie, while movie. You know, when I get back and I'm in the editing room, I'm writing something else. But while I'm making the movie, while I'm shooting it,

while I'm casting it, you know, that's what I do. You know, so you have to really put blinders on, you know. Yep. Well, you're making a good living in show business. Yeah. I mean, I'm lucky. Yeah. I'm lucky.

I mean, I will tell you also that I had almost five years where I didn't make a dollar in show business in the middle of my- After Blank Man? No, no. I had three years then, and then I got on a roll. But after Rain Over Me, I didn't make a movie for five years. What'd you do? Wrote? Did you think about going back to comedy? I did a lot, no. I opened up a hot dog joint

on Sunset Boulevard. You did? I did that. That was fun. But then, that was fun. Did it stay open? No.

It was open for a couple years. Detroit style? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Next to the Whiskey A Go-Go was called Coney Dog. Oh, yeah.

But then I realized that this isn't just me hiding, you know yeah and so it was voluntary you didn't do the movie you didn't no no it was a combination of every time i would get a movie together the financing would fall apart the world changed for it was the strike came so i used to make a lot of money writing scripts for other people. Like I wrote a movie for Julia Roberts and I wrote for Bob Zemeckis and that went away. And the kind of movies that I made, dramedies, there was no market for them for a while. Whereas they're still hard.

But at least now, you know, you make a movie for seven to ten million dollars with a movie star. And you know that Netflix or Amazon or amazon or hbo or showtime or someone is going to buy that thing you're never going to lose money it's like a buffer but there was four or five years where that buffer wasn't there the dvd went away right right the dv you know when i did upside of anger that movie might have made 2525 million at the box office, but it probably made $70 million in DVD. Right. Because every guy or woman, you know, Joan Allen, Kevin Costner, yeah, I saw that movie.

I could buy it for $19 and watch it forever or have it in my living room. Right. And it was at every store and everything, and it sold like crazy. Yeah. But that went away. Right.

So until the Netflix and the Amazon and the iTunes came, picked up again, there was no second market for my kind of movies. Did you get depressed? Oh, yeah. I'd get depressed. It was a very dark period in my life. But without- Booze.

No, no. But without- my life but you know without you know booze no no but without you know i mean i i was lucky because i'm sober and i really have a very strong faith in god very strong faith and and you know i thought this is a time in my life and i was 50 years old yeah i thought this is either gonna kill me and i'm gonna start having a fair or i'm going to start drinking again or i'm going to gain 40 pounds or i'm going to go somewhere and run away yeah or i'm going to just stay here and figure it out and keep writing every day and kind of turn inward and really find out who i am not to say it was just some brave you know i wasn't you know but you really find out who you are during

tough times. And I remember a couple of the young guys or younger guys that I work with in AA, they'd say, man, I don't know what I would have done if I couldn't, if I went broke. Because I lost, I built a mansion, I lost it. I mean, I lost so much property-wise, physical-wise. I lost so much, property wise, physical wise, but I gained so much because I really learned that I was okay with nothing as long as I was writing and as long as I was a really good guy and- Kept your family together.

Kept my family together. I picked up a lot of AA commitments. I had a meeting that I ran and I was the doorman or the greeter or the chip guy. So I had to be at a meeting every day. And I really kind of, I'd spent a life where my career and how successful I was, was the most important thing. And I was forced to for five years, just how good a guy I was each day, that became the most important thing wow and i had a sense that it was going to swing back for me i really did i really had a sense that it would swing back and i'd have an even more successful period in my life if i didn't melt down during

this you know yeah and it was really. Five years is a long time. Yeah. Especially when, from the time I was 18, I always did something. I always had a show, a movie, a this or that going every year. Yeah. You know, I wasn't as successful as Woody Allen, but I had the same life as him. I was constantly casting, shooting, editing, going. And then it just went away, you know.

But I look at it now as what I needed more than anything because I think the work, not that the work is deeper because I think that's a cliche, but the work is clearer. Right. You know, if I'm writing a thriller, I know exactly what I'm writing. A lot of the reviews and the stuff that I could take some constructive criticism was that some of my movies didn't know what they wanted to be. And now you're clear on that.

I bet you're clear on who your friends are too. That's so true. That's really true. I mean, you know, my best friends are, one's a dentist and one's a home builder. Yeah. I mean, you really realize that the guys in the business, they can't help but be affected by the price of your stock.

And you don't want them to be, but they are. Yeah. Yeah, the funny thing is, is like I said at the beginning, you know, I thought you were fucking hilarious oh thanks and and it was like you know like i can still remember you had such a as a stand-up you had such a confidence and such a like there was something you know completely uh fresh and like you know it was just yeah that's what i had i had i had a poise that my talent didn't quite get to know. I mean, I just was.

I was comfortable on stage because I wanted to be on there so bad as a young guy. And especially when I was sober, I really had looked like a 50-year-old in an 18-year-old's body doing a real polished act. But it wasn't fresh it wasn't there was no there was no there was no unique point of view to it right right it was just me doing jokes you know and and as soon as i realized that i said okay it's time to hang this up but but just in terms of my personal life i think that you were one of the guys i saw and i'm like you know people do this you can do this. That's right. Yeah. That's right. And I appreciate that.

Well, I remember when I started, and my dad would say, you're really going to be a comedian? Yeah. And I'd say, look, Dad, let me just show you something. And I showed him Billy Braver on The Tonight Show. I had him in here. Do you know Billy Braver? I had him in here. Oh, yeah.

Okay. With his lunchbox? Yeah. I i said this guy you've never heard of him but he's making a living yeah and then i showed him tom dreeson this guy goes out there are hundreds and hundreds of guys around this country that are making doing great as comedians well it's you you think because you don't know of them that I'm going into this horrible business. But you're wrong. Yeah. You know?

Did he finally believe you? He did. Yeah. Yeah. My dad came to love comedians. He opened up a comedy club in Fort Myers, Florida. He did? Yeah.

Called the Bijou Comedy Club. And he really, when he was retired, you know, he financed it, put it this way. And all the guys, Seinfeld and Tim Allen, so many guys came and played. He was a great guy. Out of respect for you? No. No, just because?

No, it was a good gig. It was a good gig. It was in Fort Myers, Florida. And my dad would take them boating. My dad had a fishing boat. And he would call me up and go, Mike, I'm here with Tim Allen. Mike, I'm here with Jerry Seinfeld.

And they liked him. And he loved, through his friendship with Leno and through me, he really learned to love comedians. My dad, he died young. He had an accident. You know, at 72, he had a bad fall, and it was dead eight days later, you know. But he was a great guy, and he really, through me, learned to understand, you know, even long after I was out of comedy. Yeah. after I was out of comedy, he was friends with comedians and he loved comedians

and he really understood not only what a tough life it is, but what a unique skill set it is. And he would call me up and say, you've got to see this kid, you know, Bill Hicks. I said, yeah, I know Bill Hicks, Dad. You know what I mean?

Did he ever bother you to get back in it no no he knew he knew that i was making movies and he liked that too he liked to come on the sets and you know he liked to uh pal around with kevin costner and sure and and you know i had this movie with donald sutherland was one of my movies, and that made my dad happy, you know. Oh, that's sweet, man. That's sweet. And you work with your brother. Yeah.

Yeah, my brother. Not anymore. We're doing our own things now. My brother's actually producing the biography of Dionne Warwick's life. Wow. But you got a good relationship with him. Yeah, great relationship. You know, you can only work with

for your big brother so many years you know what i mean yeah yeah i'm a big brother i don't know it's not easy being a little brother yeah ever yeah and at a certain point yeah plus it was very conveniently timed to the time when i stopped getting work he was was like, hey, man, what's your next movie? Because if not, I'm on my own. And he's gone on. He's done very well, actually. And so have you, man. I really appreciate you talking to me, buddy.

I'm really glad I came. It was great. Thanks, Mike. That was pretty cool. That was it. That was me and Mike Binder. It was very exciting exciting talk to Mike. Got a lot of respect for that guy.

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