WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 678 - Cindy Crawford

Episode Date: February 4, 2016

Cindy Crawford was unquestionably the most famous model in the world during the 1990s. She survived and prospered far beyond the typical career duration of a model by determining early on that if the industry was going to use her, she needed to use it back. Cindy and Marc talk about the days when the Supermodel ruled the culture, the changes in her life since becoming a mother, and the shifting perceptions of middle age. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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T's and C's apply. Lock the gates! All right, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fucking ears what the fuckstables well that one was out probably still is out yeah let's leave it out all right relax mark okay i will i'm mark maron WTF, my podcast. Today on the show, I talked to Cindy Crawford, the supermodel that was a dominant presence everywhere on the planet Earth for a decade or so when I was younger. Not so young that I was impressionable, but for those of you who are probably in your mid to late 30s, I think she probably holds a place there somewhere in your little prepubescent or just barely pubescent brain, that Cindy Crawford. Well, she was here with me.

She has a book out. It's called Cindy Crawford Becoming. It's a memoir with a lot of pics. And I talked to Cindy Crawford because I could. Wait, you want to talk to Cindy Crawford? Yeah, I would like to sit across from Cindy Crawford and talk to her so that's going to happen in a little while you know I denial is a weird thing denial is is something we all have it's something I think many of us whether we know it or not it's some sort of survival mechanism you can't take it all

in you know you can either you know close the you know close the valve down shut the lens a little bit adjust the f-stop or just you know kind of you lube all that with some mild denial to whatever degree of denial you want we all got a little bit of it even if we think we don't it's there and you know whatever the case but this is sort of basic basic denial i know i kind of got into this gas leak situation that i had you know i've got this this new driveway as some of you know i don't spend a lot of money on it rained pretty heavy the other day day before yesterday and the rain doesn't gather sandbags are gone drainage is working fine coming off the roof there's the french drain in front of this beat up garage. Beautiful.

But a couple weeks ago. I mentioned that there might be an issue with the driveway. Because for a few weeks. I was smelling gas out in front of my house. I called the gas company. And they came over. And there's a fucking problem with it. There's a leak inside the pipe.

Between the house. Where it goes into the cement, into my new driveway, down the driveway, into the main valve in the street. There's a leak somewhere in there. And the guy starts drawing these squares where he's going to jackhammer into my new fucking driveway to get to the pipe. And I'm like, what? I just got this driveway. I barely even enjoyed it yet.

And now you're going to drill a fucking square into it? He's like, yeah, we got a guy. we got a good contractor fills it in i'm like he's gonna be able to match the the grain of concrete like that he does a pretty good job i'm like and they're like we're paying for it you know it's our line i'm like yeah but i just got the but you know and it was in that moment where i had this sort of a revelation that might be helpful i don't. My first place that my brain would go in a situation like this, of course, this shit happens to me. Why me? That's where my brain goes. But then I did this more processing and I'm like, hey, you know, it's an old gas line. They didn't know. Maybe it shook something loose when they were laying the driveway. Who knows whose fault

it is? Old pipe, whatever. So I shifted slowly with some minor fits of anger and rage. I shifted from, why me? To, you know what? That's life. It happens. Better. It's better. You don't know what the fuck is going to happen.

I mean, it's just they might have to drill a hole in my driveway and lose a foot. You know what I mean? I mean, yeah, some people have all the luck. Sure, some people never have to deal with this stuff. Some people just step in just beautiful piles of gold and shit every day. Some people do have all the luck, but everybody

dies, and those people, they're going to die too. This is not schadenfreude. I'm not trying to be optimistic about people dying. I'm just saying that there's problems everywhere, and that's life all right so not why me ah that's life or if you want that's my life but that's a little close to why me but anyways the only way that they wouldn't have to drill in the concrete is if if this guy could run a new line into the old line and make the corner up because it hits a corner and then goes up to the valve

that goes into my house. And I didn't know I had to go to work. I didn't know what was going to happen. I didn't know if I was going to come home to just a mutilated, destroyed, scarred, and potholed new driveway or what. And I went away for four hours and I get home and there's a guy out in the street in front of my house in a four foot deep hole. That's about three feet by five feet. You know, the size of the hole. He's in the hole. And I'm like, what's up? And he goes, I did it, man.

I ran the cable up. We did it. We're not going to have to drill. And I'm like, holy shit. I'm one of the lucky ones now that's beautiful and i go what are you doing in there he goes well this valve down here that we got to plug the new piece into is from like 1911 and i got to figure out how to and i'm like wait wait wait so like this is like this infrastructure issue is serious shit. Like that means that all the fucking pipes

that go all over this goddamn city and almost all cities that have any fucking history to them are from the early 1900s, late 1800s. Who the hell knows? So how do you fix all that? Here's your answer. You don't. You wait till they break one at a time and you just do some patchwork.

That's how the infrastructure gets fixed. What, you think we're going to rip everything up to make everything safe and good? Nah, just wait it out. Some of these pipes will surprise you. That's the infrastructure plan for America. Hey, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. And if it does break, I hope not too many people get hurt. Yeah.

Yeah, tell that to the people. There's a gas leak up in the valley, just horrendous. So here's what happened. This is a surprising thing because I just had that gas thing. They put a beautiful new valve in it. And I don't know if you ever get this feeling like when you get work done and then it's this whole new pretty thing and you feel better about it that there's some part of you that thinks you achieve something it's ridiculous but they I want to thank the you

know Southern California gas for doing that but but you know I do feel some part of me thinks like I did a thing but I did nothing but even with, here's what happened. So my water heater pilot was going out. This is all within two weeks. Kept going out. So I had the Sears guy come over because I don't have one of those new pretty little boxes that just does it by magic. I have an old style water heater, Kenmore. But they, you know, they have like a long warranty on them. Whatever.

So the guy comes over to fix the pilot and then he leaves. And I'm smelling gas. Smelling gas out there. it's in the same room with the cat litter boxes i'm like it's fucking gassy smells gas and here's where the denial comes in you know this went on for days and i'm like what what was going on how could i let it go on for that long even the other gas week what is it well you know how how they say like a lot of people when they get terminally ill it's only because they waited too long to go to the doctor you know and we do that you know there's it's just sort of like that doesn't feel too serious you know it's gonna wait it out you know months later oh it's all over your body you should have come in when he first i thought it was just nothing it's denial in a way so I think

that part of me like that's the ridiculous thing about it like I smell this gas leak in that back room and I kept smelling it I kept walking by and smelling it and part of me was like now you know maybe it'll yeah maybe just you know heal itself somehow maybe you'll maybe just you know maybe just uh you know where there's a leak in the pipe or whatever. He'll just, you know, scab over and, you know, it could get better. Could get better. Call the guys in the machine, charge the equipment. He came over and it's like, yeah, it's a tight in the thing that you don't know about.

And that's why, you know, we have a job. You're not allowed to know about it. So now that's gone. So watch the dial. It could be dangerous in a lot of ways. Your house generally will not heal itself. Your body will, but you know, you should don't wait too long if you're sick. Is that the point?

Is that what I was working towards? I'll read a couple emails. Okay, let's just read a couple and I'll do another thing and then we'll do. Subject line, interesting. I've been tempted to write several times and I've only listened to about five recent shows. Nothing quite felt right, even if I bothered to write it out.

Identifying with you or a guest, compliments, etc. Nothing quite fit because I had a feeling that was more ambiguous at the end of each show, which made the happy thought I wanted to express seem dishonest. Then I realized about five minutes ago what it was. There's no spin for me to

compensate for. It's the David Spade interview that sealed it. I never knew much about him, but I always liked him. After that interview, there were things about what he said and how he behaved that left me unsettled. I finally realized that the lack of spin made the interaction real. That word is so abused, he put in parentheses, and gave me a new view of him as a person with normal person flaws. And that is what the unsettled feeling is at the end of several of your shows.

You have let me see a part of the humanity of people whom I normally would only get to see the spin version of. Maybe I've let myself be conditioned to looking for the spin version. Thank you. Regards, Chris. Okay. Well, yeah, the spin is an interesting word for it.

But yeah, I mean, some people, yeah, there's a polished sort of promotional version of people. A public, I think, the public persona is what you're talking about when you say spin. And I appreciate that. That's a nice email. I appreciate that. This is another touching one. These are touching. Just some guy dot, dot, dot. Mark, I know a lot of people must contact you through this medium providing input or commentary on your podcast. This isn't really that at all. I discovered you on my Netflix account under a title called Thinky Pain.

That's my first special for Netflix. I didn't know what the fuck I was in for when I opened this comedy special, but I decided to just try it out. I was going to give you about 10 minutes of my attention. This wasn't me being judgmental against you. I just get a bit antsy on some things. Watching TV is one of those things.

So I press play and it starts. 10 minutes, 20 minutes. Time just goes by. For that hour or so that you were doing your thing, I wasn't me for that hour. I didn't have that tar black looming thunderstorm like cloud called depression raining despair upon me. For that hour, I totally ignored that feeling of loneliness

that you can only get when your girlfriend moves four states away from you, thus causing you to end the relationship. Your best friend that has been your right-hand man for close to six to eight years just up and leaves, and it's just you in a cold bedroom by yourself in the basement of your mom and dad's house. For that hour, I saw someone who I could relate to. Thank you. Since then, I've delved into the research of comedy, Hicks, Bruce, Carlin, and even Sam Kennison with his don't feed the hungry bit,

LOL. Congratulations. You've converted another mind to idolizing the greats. Keep helping others like me, man. You're doing a lot of damn good in this world just by being you, so you better keep that shit up.

Talk to you later, Nate. Boomer lives. P.S. I was wondering if you could provide any input for a practicing guitarist got any tips or tricks of the trade yeah have fun man and thanks for the email made me feel good i'm glad that you appreciate what i do and i'm glad to help out any way i can man all right i'll read this one boomer lives subject line strange thing happened the other

day i think it was a strange Pavlovian response to years of listening to WTF. I was playing guitar while my family was in the other room and upon the completion of a noodle riff I had made up, I played a beefy E chord and then I had to fight an overwhelming urge to shout, boomer lives. So thanks, Mark Maron, for instilling in me

the belief that all bluesy riffs end not in a turnaround or a chord, but in a shout of invocation to your cat mascot. I'm not saying I didn't like the response. It amused me. I just wasn't up for the explaining that would have to happen. Love you, Mark. Keep it up. Okay, buddy.

That's from Eric. This one I found to be provocative. Smells and intimacy. Hello, Mark. Your comments over the holidays about how intimacy ranges from the sublime to the grotesque, including the smelly stuff, brought to mind what I call the rule of shit. And that's in quotation marks, folks. I think all the best things in life involve shit.

People shit, cats shit, dogs shit, babies shit, food grows and shit. No shit, no life. Things that don't shit or don't grow in shit maybe don't matter so much. Money doesn't shit. The internet may be shitty but doesn't shit. Try to appreciate the shit in your life. It may be the product of something good or fertilizer to grow something good. Thanks for the intelligent comedy, Leslie in Connecticut.

You're welcome. That was not a shitty email. Leslie in Connecticut. You're welcome. That was not a shitty email. All right. So in preparation to introducing the guest, subject line,

Holy Grizzly Adams tribute. Hi, Mark. Just looking at the two photos in this week's WTF email. So I'm wondering, A, if your beard normally grows super fast, because he's looking between the two photographs, the one of me and Mike Binder, then one of me and Cindy Crawford. A, if your beard normally grows super fast. Oh, because he's looking between the two photographs, the one of me and Mike Binder and then the one of me and Cindy Crawford. A, if your beard normally grows super fast.

B, if you did the first interview a while ago. Or C, if your beard was visibly growing during the second interview due to the burly flood of Bruce Banner-like hormones provoked by having Cindy, oh my God, Crawford in your garage. Looking good, Holmes. Dan. That's what happened.

It was awkward and I was surprised she didn't say anything. I just sat here, you know, I turned beet red and my beard started growing. She said nothing. So let's go now to my conversation with Cindy Crawford, her book Becoming, his memoir with pics. Cindy Crawford. Her book, Becoming, is a memoir with pics. Cindy Crawford and me. You can get anything you need with Uber Eats.

Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs and mozzarella balls, yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats. Get almost, almost anything. Order now. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details.

Calgary is an opportunity-rich city, home to innovators, dreamers, disruptors and problem solvers. The city's visionaries are turning heads around the globe across all sectors each and every day. They embody Calgary's DNA, a city that's innovative, inclusive and creative. And they're helping put Calgary and our innovation ecosystem on the map as a place where people come to solve some of the world's greatest challenges. Calgary's on the right path forward. Take a closer look at CalgaryEconomicDevelopment.com. So you drove all the way in from the Malibu? Yeah. And was it bad?

It just was longer than I... All right. Well, I gave myself an hour and a half, and it took an hour and a half. I like to be early. And do you live on the beach? I do. Really? Yeah. How long have you lived there?

We lived full time in Malibu for 12 years. do you live like on the beach? I do. Really? Yeah. How long have you lived there? Uh, we lived full time in Malibu for 12 years. Is it like, um, like I don't, you know, to go there is like you coming here. It's like, I have to pack a bag and a tent, sleeping bag. But, uh, but it's, it's sort of weird and isolated out there, isn't it? I mean, I mean, yeah, it is. Um, like the town, like I've been there a couple of times. You go to this store and I just figure all you people know each other out there. You kind of start to know everybody, which is nice. It does feel like a small beach town. Uh-huh.

With very wealthy people wandering around. There's that. But there's also, I mean, there are. Actually, there is economic diversity there. You wouldn't really. Because there is like the mobile home parks. Oh, right, right. And that's where you live, right? economic diversity there. You wouldn't really, because there is like the mobile home parks. Oh, right, right. And that's where you live, right?

It's surprisingly, actually, a lot of people, they're really nice mobile homes, by the way. Yeah. I'd like to go. And I don't think they get the tornadoes, which is good. Right, no tornadoes. Just maybe a slightly windy, but no tornado. But so, yeah, there's a little diversity down there. Yeah.

And it's a great place for us to raise our kids. We felt like it's not, because it is out there, you don't come into town that much. Right, right. And so even for my husband and I, we think,

oh, do we really need to go to that dinner now? We'll just stay home. Oh, yeah. So it kind of- So you lose friends, but you're okay. It's nice out there. You make more Malibibu friends your malibu friends become really important and you end up spending more time with your family which was a conscious decision that we made how many kids you have two and and so you're

you everyone's there and you spend a lot of time with them that's good yeah do you see bob dylan walking around i have seen bob dylan there not a while. I saw him a long time ago, like one of my first times in Malibu. I was at a party at Sandy Gallen's house and he was sitting in a chair and it was just so surreal. It's funny when you have like those celebrity moments. Oh, yeah. Because I don't care who you are. There's still like certain people that are like. Oh, yeah. For you, like. You're like, oh my God. It's Bob Dylan or Paul Newman or people like that. Did you see Paul Newman? I did. Well, you're a pretty big celebrity it's bob dylan or paul newman or people like that did you see paul newman i did well you're pretty big celebrity yourself i imagine it goes both ways i imagine that bob was happy to see you i don't know he seemed pretty much in his own world that day

that day that life um so where'd you see paul newman i saw paul newman at a broadway show and um i was like you know just couldn't take my eyes off him. But then I actually had the opportunity to meet him with a friend of mine who is involved in his charity. And I got to hang out in his trailer on a movie. And that was really cool because then, you know, everyone has their like public persona. And it's nice. And, you know, you kind of have to do that to protect yourself too when you're out but it's nice when you get to see people like in you know at home

or in their own environment where they're where they don't have the right the facade of it's like well not also that generation like he's passed away and bowie passed away it's like i know it's starting to happen that that crew i mean paul newman was older but like bow it's starting to happen that, that crew, I mean, Paul Newman was older, but like Bowie's crew. Now we got to watch. I mean, we're almost, you're, you're a little younger than me, but, but you know, those were our people. Yeah.

They are our cultural icons. Right. Yeah. And now they're, it's so horrible because you know, all of a sudden it's sad that they go, but then you start to think about your own trip, you know? I know. Did you ever meet Bowie when you were in new york come on you must have i don't have like that moment with him oh yeah that i remember right

you know certain people you remember the first time you met them or saw them like i remember meeting warren baity or i remember meeting jack nicholson like you remember you know because whatever they're where'd you meet jack nicholson? I met him with Herb Ritz, who is a photographer that I worked with a lot. Did a lot of the big pics of you, huh? Yes. And Herb had... He loved getting people together. He would have small gatherings, like 30 people.

In New York? No, here. He's an LA guy. Yeah. And born and raised. Is he still around? No. Yeah, he passed away, right?

He passed away probably about 10 years ago. Oh. Yeah. So he was on a party. He would just have like these crazy barbecues and it could be like Madonna, John Kennedy Jr., Tracy Chapman. Right. I mean, just like Jack Nicholson or Warren Beatty would be like such an eclectic group

of people. And Herb really, everyone loved Herb and then his mother would kind of hold court and Herb's mom yeah yeah surely yeah so it was cool and did you like well that it's so weird that like that experience of being at a party like that or being anywhere with that type of group of people because I realized not long ago that they really can only hang out with each other it's not like they can just you know what i mean they they can't just be among the regular population that easily so for them to be comfortable among a group of people it has to be people like them in a way i think there is something about like you feel like you can let your guard down right because it's kind of like you know everyone is invested in what happened you know it's like that what happens in vegas

stays in vegas yeah yeah yeah now it's changed because every i mean anywhere you go everyone has a cell phone anywhere you go you could be being filmed at any time and it could end up on tmz i sense a a slight bit of anger and well it's just it's horrible i think that's part of the reason like it's not so much that like i'm always'm always like, models are people too, or celebrities are people too. Right. But it's because of that. Like, I would love to be able to just go to the beach. Yeah.

And no one, and be a regular person, right? Right, right. But then there's, like, the one idiot with the cell phone. Right. That's trying to get a bad picture. Right. I mean, it's like a given take. A bad picture. That's the worst of it, right?

Well, some people get good ones, but, you know, it seems like the bad ones are more interesting. More probably they get more forced. Look at her. Yeah. Well, you had that problem like a year ago with that leaked photo, right? It wasn't leaked and retouched. It wasn't just, it wasn't a real picture. Well, I mean, but then I came up with this whole idea that no picture's real, if you think about it.

Okay. Because. Sure, it's a representation. Yeah, and it's like. It's all manipulated. It's mediated. It's an image. It's where the light is.

Right. And you know, like I was saying to someone, like if I'm doing selfies of myself and I take it and I go, oh, the lighting's terrible. But if I go like turn toward the window, the lighting's better. That's the one I'm going to post. It's the same me. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So. Oh, yeah. There are moments where you. I just realized like pictures are not. Well, what was the deal with that? What happened? I don't really know, actually. It just got out in the world. No, it didn't just get out in the world. And no one actually knows. But I think the photographer doesn't even know. I mean, I'm still friendly with him.

I still work with him. But he said he didn't know. And he actually was really upset about it because it used to be when you do a photo shoot. Right. 99 out of the 100 pictures are probably not that great. Right. That's why they take so many. And then they would edit those out.

Those would end up in the trash. and then they would pick the best one right now with digital like someone and this is what i think might have happened is someone might have walked by the monitor because like as you're shooting now it's coming up to a big monitor right right and taking a picture from the monitor and then you can you know look we retouch all the time to make us look better. Sure. If you have a pimple or a bag under your eye. Yeah, it's the beauty of it. But you can also Photoshop to make people not look good.

Of course. And the photographer showed me the, well, quote unquote, the real image. But I mean, I guess it depends what monitor you're looking on. You know what I mean? I don't even know. So it really made me just realize the whole thing is illusion, good and bad. But wasn't it like that?

Wasn't it tricky in the sense that, you know, from what I understand, I'm certainly not trying to stir anything up, but like that, there was sort of this championing of, you know, why would Cindy be, you know, uncomfortable with this image of her without being touched up? She's so amazing. So you have all these women saying, and then you have to be like, well, it's intrusive. I didn't say anything. Oh, yeah.

Because I didn't, there was an outpouring from women who were like, you know, she's real like us and whatever. And I didn't want to reject that. But at the same time, it wasn't quote unquote real. Or maybe, I don't know. You didn't want to get into that dialogue. I just thought, and unfortunately, there was certainly people who genuinely were championing me. But there were also the snarky people. The worst.

Snark is the worst. And so, I just didn't, cause I was like, what can I do? Do I have to go on Good Morning America and pull my shirt up and go, that's not what I look like. I didn't know. And even there,

if depending on the lighting, they could, I could retouch abs. I could have a six pack. It's a little hard with high definition now to hide. Yeah, but good lighting. Yeah.

It's really all about lighting. Sure. It's all about lighting. It is, right is and we well i was looking through your book and it seems like in terms of you know talking about lighting that the book is more of a it's almost like a tribute to the photographers you worked with well there's there's a big section which is um honoring those guys that were my mentors, both good and bad. I mean, some of the photographers I learned hard lessons from. Yeah.

But most of them I learned about modeling and other life lessons. So one section of the book, and it's called The Image Makers, those are the guys that really shaped me, not only as a model, but as kind of a woman and as a professional. Oh, really? Yeah. you know, as kind of a woman and as a professional. Oh, really?

Yeah. Because you did, you came, it wasn't your expectation to be a model. I didn't even know it was a real job. I mean, I grew up in, you know, a very small town outside Chicago. My dad. Like farm town? Well, it was surrounded by cornfields, but there was a university there. So it was kind of a, it's a small town. Right.

It was a small town. And your dad was what? He was, let's see, when I was, he worked for my, my grandfather. So he was a machinist. Yeah. Then he was an electrician. Then he was a glazer, which we used to think that we told my sister he worked for Dunkin' Donuts. So he made glass?

What's a glazer do? A glazer puts glass in buildings. Oh, okay. I think. That's what he told you. Before he really was glazing the donuts. So he's a working guy. Yes.

Did a lot of stuff. And my mom didn't work while we were really little, and then she went to work in a doctor's office. So we were definitely lower class, working class working working class collar yeah yeah uh and you have what one sister i have no i had um an older sister i still do yeah i have a younger sister and then i had the youngest in our family was a brother who died when he was when we were all kids but he was the youngest you remember that yeah i was 10 when he died. Oh, that's horrible. Yeah, it was devastating for my whole family. And only when I had my own kid could I understand how that must have been for my parents.

Because, you know, you knew it was sad, but I was still only 10. And, you know, your life kind of goes on. But I don't know how my mother went on. Like, for me, that's, like, I always have been, you know, she's always been one of my heroes. But after becoming a mother myself and realizing how she just, like, got up the next day and made breakfast for the other three of us because, because we were there. Right.

She had to. She had to. The depths of the grief, though, you couldn't really wrap your brain around until now. Right. It's just awful. But are they still around? My sisters are, yeah. I just saw them at Christmas.

Uh-huh. And your folks? No? I actually have two grandmothers still alive. Come on! Yes. One is, well, she'll probably be mad at me. I think she just turned 97.

And she lives in DeKalb still with my aunt. And then my other grandmother is 93, and she lives by herself in Florida. Does she drive? She does drive. So watch out. Now, Ramona, if you're listening, you're a very good driver. That's amazing.

No, I went to visit her in the spring and I was like, so who cleans your house? She goes, what do you mean who cleans my house? She goes, I do, but I can only do one room a day now. She breaks it up. She's amazing. Good genetics. Yeah. You're going to last a while. I have two grandm. She breaks it up. She's amazing. Good genetics. Yeah.

You're going to last a while. Two grandmothers, both my parents. That's amazing. Very blessed, yes. And you're on good terms with everybody. I am. I mean, I've always, yeah, I'm on great terms with everybody. There was a time with my dad that it was more um disconnected just because you know he he was

the one who really left my mother and i was in our high school oh they're not together no and i think you know we were mad at my dad and we were very protective of my mother and my and i i do think looking back part of my dad's kind of acting out was probably his grief over losing his son he just grieved in a different way than my mother did oh so there was uh like he was uh uh out in the doing the business yeah and other things yes he he he knows i've talked about this on the radio before so sorry dad um but we worked hard to have a relationship now. And we never had no relationship. It wasn't like yelling and screaming?

No, or like where we didn't talk for five years. But we've gotten, I mean, we always talk. But, you know, I guess I lost respect for my dad. Yeah. And then we had to come back together in a way where, and my dad's great. Anyone who meets my dad, they're like, he's the greatest guy ever. Of course. And he is.

He's very charming. Well, those guys who act out are usually very charming. Yeah, exactly. They got to have a little game. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. But that's good.

So, you know, you worked it out. I mean, I think just by virtue of living long enough and having your own life and, you know, when you really don't need your parents for anything practical, that it's really up to you to make it right. Exactly, exactly. And I saw, I think me having my own, like you said, I didn't need any, like my financial independence from my family,

which happened very young. And in fact, I was helping the shift. Sure. It switched to the other foot at one point where i was helping them um but that does help you i mean look i like you want your um storybook wedding and and marriage and you do want your daddy to have all the answers and your mommy to always be there to give you a hug and that doesn't always work out that way and then you have to figure out the real life version of those relationships right yeah it's the worst it is it's like it's like sometimes you get mad at like the film industry or the songs because they paint this um unrealistic vision of what life is supposed you know like relationships aren't supposed to be hard.

Who said that? I mean, any relationship's hard. My relationship with my dog is hard sometimes. Oh, yeah. You know? Yeah, my cat's like that same thing. It's weird. I mean, I don't, you know, I've had bad relationships, but like when an animal gets fucked up, you're

like, oh my God. Or just like when they do annoying things. You can be annoyed. You can still love things and be annoyed by them. I just had to buy a new carpet because of them. You have to buy a new couch. But in the same light, it's interesting that modeling gets a little bit of flack for creating an illusion of what people or women should be. Right.

I mean, you dealt with that early on as well, too, didn't you? Yeah. Well, I think going back to what we were talking about before, I mean if, what I came through that whole thing with that picture a year ago, what I came to realize is that photography is an art. Yeah.

And all the choices the photographer makes from how does he, where does he put the light? When does, where does he put the camera? What angle? When does he click the shutter?

Which one does he choose to say this is the one that represents my vision? It's an art. It's not. So like if a painter paints a picture of a beautiful woman, you don't go, that's an unrealistic portrayal of women. Women can't live.

It's like it's their fantasy version of whatever they're painting. Sure. And that is what photography and fashion photography is as well. So it shouldn't really be taken too literally and i think that um i mean now everyone knows because even like my 14 year old daughter knows how to facetune something for her snapchat or not snapchat i guess you can't you can't do that on snapchat instagram on instagram um so i don't do snapchat because yeah and my daughter's like mom no you're not doing Snapchat. Let me have one thing. Exactly. That's why Instagram all of a sudden

became not cool because the moms were doing it and now my daughter's like I'm so over Instagram and I'm like I just finally am getting it. That's why I'm leaving. Exactly. That happened with Facebook. Twitter seems to elude most grownups which is good. Yeah I think the people I know that use Twitter it's more for

like news like what's happening right in the second. Right, right, right. They get news from it. I use it for my ego validation. Oh, good. Constantly. It's nice to have that. Yeah, constant feedback from strangers.

It's always good. Well, no, I understand what you're saying about that. And also, like, I think that it seems like your generation of those first, that wave of supermodels, and you were different than most models right you were not emaciated you were you looked healthy you it was like a new a whole new thing yeah but you know fashion it's like a pendulum right so you can go from maryland monroe to twiggy and then yeah yeah Everything in between. So like our generation, it was about being strong and having a real body.

But that can only go one place, which is back to Kate Moss, who was like a deer in headlights. But that's, you know, Kate eats. She's not. Right. That's just how her body looks. And I mean, for me, where I think fashion should be going or how fashion is portrayed is more all-encompassing. That Kate Moss can be beautiful and Marilyn Monroe. Do you know?

Sure. That it's everything. And especially now that I have a daughter and I see her watching what's in the moment. And she's 14? Yeah. So that's when it all happens. Right. Oh, right.

In, in the moment. And she's 14? Yeah. So that's when it all happens. Right. So she's very much watching like Gigi and Kendall Jenner and Cara Delevingne and Karlie Kloss and all those people. And I see how she's measuring herself against them. And that's why it's important to have it broader because not everyone is 5'10".

And not everyone is, you know, some girls, like now it's funny, like in my generation, it was like you didn't want a big booty. But now all of a sudden, because of, you know, the popularity of the Kardashians, it's like now that's in style, which is great if you have a big booty. But now these girls that don't, now they feel bad about it. You know, it's like, it's just crazy. It's like- It's all relative to the trend at the moment. Yeah. So when you were, what was the plan though

when you were growing up in that little town? I mean, you were a good student, right? And you were like on the trajectory for some other thing. Yeah, I was good at school. I mean, it's a skill, I think, school. It doesn't necessarily correlate to learning well it correlates to learning what they put in front of you but i you know like i just see like school is like i have a good school brain like you give me material

i can retain it fairly easily i can regurgitate it you have discipline though and you can study yeah i mean i didn't have to kill myself i just did the homework yeah but i was a good student and then um i i did feel at a certain point and i talk about it in my book yeah that at there was a student teacher who like at the end of her four-month student teaching our class she gave every kid like a award like that she made up like most likely to whatever whatever and she put on mine future miss america yeah and it was funny because it wasn't something i ever cared about being miss america but what was impactful to me is that she she dreamed big for me yeah she it was like planting the seed like wow like someone else thinks that I could maybe be Miss America. So I'm allowed to dream big because I think, you know, kind of that Midwestern Protestant mentality is like the sky is falling safe for a rainy day.

You know, do safe. Don't take chances. It's very different than the way my husband was raised in New York. And so this was like, oh, oh, I can dream big. So then I started thinking I wanted, I knew I wanted to do something. So the biggest jobs that I could think of at the time were nuclear physicists, just because it sounded good. And first woman president. And then in high school when I graduated and I got an academic scholarship into Northwestern, but I had to go into engineering.

got an academic scholarship into Northwestern, but I had to go into engineering. So I just was like, chemical, electrical. Well, I picked chemical because I'm like, well,

I'm good at chemistry. Okay. But I didn't know what was next, but I, that was a way for me to go to school free. And like, while I was figuring it out. And then I only went for like the first half of freshman year. And then my modeling career really took off and i left

but what like in high school though were you like you know you must have been hot you i mean what were you doing in high school were you driving around did you have bad boyfriends no did you i had a great high school i had like i went out with a quarterback you know i wasn't you were that girl but i wasn't like in my school the i'm gonna judge you i'm gonna judge you now. Why were you not that guy? No, I was definitely not the quarterback. I was the guy going like, fuck that guy.

Who is his girlfriend? I was a little bit, like in my school, like I was definitely in like the, if you have, you know, like the in group, right? Cheerleader? No. Okay. Because the girls in my school. Adamant no.

No. No, I would have been. No. Okay. Because the girls in my school. Adamant no. No. No, I would have been. But the girls in my school that were really like considered like the hottest ones were

more like the cheerleaders, like the little cute. I'm still friends with, really good friends with two of them that were. Two of the cheerleaders? Yes. And they were twins. And so I was friends with them, but they were like the homecoming queen. They were the cheerleaders and all that. But I was, you know, friends with them and I had were like the homecoming queen they were the cheerleaders and all that but but i was you know friends with them and i had a great time in high school but i also

did have some of like the more um like the the calculus friends too do you know i kind of had like a few of them you can move through both worlds yes yeah um and then i graduated and yeah and then i was already modeling in high school toward the end for what well in Chicago there's a lot of catalog there so I started with Marshall Fields Sears oh really yeah um I could I mean the thing about Chicago is you can have a working career as a model there I could have I and I and I met several women there were a few years older than me that you know they were working every day doing catalog and had like a normal midwestern life yeah but you weren't going to be in vogue you weren't going to

do those big right you know campaigns how soon after you started doing the smaller campaign so you were like just just out of high school when you started no i started um so my my senior year of high school i was i was working pretty a lot already. And what, you'd go on the weekends to shoots? I would go, I did my high school classes in the morning. Right. And then I would drive into Chicago and I would model probably three or four afternoons a week. How long did it take before you were like, I'm going to be on Vogue?

Like when did you realize like, all right, so this is the hierarchy. This is the job. You know so this is the hierarchy this is the job you know this is this is the biggest you can get here yeah well what I noticed is there was this one photographer in Chicago Victor Skrbneski he's still alive and I'm friendly with him now and he was like the big fish there if you were working with Skrbneski in Chicago you were doing like the best jobs that Chicago those jobs it was like Ion. He actually shot Estee Lauder too. So he shot Town and Country. So he did shoot some national things more than these other guys.

And I was working for him every day. But I noticed when he had really good jobs, he would fly in the New York Girls. And that's what they were called, the New York Girls. And like the Chicago Girls, we didn't even get to eat lunch. We had like our own little place that we ate lunch, but the New York girls got to eat with Victor. They got to wear the best clothes.

Who were they at that time? Do you remember? It was like Iman, who was married to David Bowie. Yeah. Diane DeWitt, Andy McDowell. Oh, yeah. There was, you know, they would come in and they were the New York girls. And I was like, wait, I want to be a New York girl because they got all the, you know, they got the treated like royalty.

So I didn't think about Vogue, but I did think, okay, I think I want to be a New York girl. So that kind of didn't happen overnight. I mean, my Nework agency would be calling me who which one elite at the time yeah i wasn't ready to leave like i felt very so you were signed with a local agency and with elite well i was with elite in chicago okay so they snapped you up pretty quick yeah they just want to get everybody yeah so what were there there was elite and ford and wilhelmina and that was that there was a few others but those were the big players at that time uh-huh and so this guy victor uh-huh so you didn't you know how quickly did you sort of take to the camera i mean you

know obviously you you look the way you look but i mean there's a whole process oh you learn i'm still learning i'm a much better model today than i was even in my let's say you know payday just because i'm more confident i know how to work in front of the camera more i mean it is a there's a skill to modeling as well as just a genetic you know sure that you won the lottery well yeah there's and there's different skills too there's like runway and there's other things did you do much much of that? I did. Yeah. Yeah. Because I have this weird connection to it in that my first wife quit modeling and she was pretty good. So you became that guy. I did. But she went into comedy and into show business and away from me. So I became that guy too.

The one that scared the model away. But what was interesting to me, though, was that I think she could have had a pretty good career. She was in Italy with Armani and doing runway stuff. But the lifestyle just was like she couldn't. It was devastating to her. It can be. And I think one of the things that saved me, well, my Midwestern upbringing, but also I

did not really start spending time in New York and Europe until I was 20 already. So I graduated high school. I had that in my pocket. I was valedictorian. I got to feel, that gave me a certain amount of self-esteem. Valedictorian. Yeah, smarty pants. I think I shared it with another guy.

Technically, I was co-valedictorian with David. But he gets cut out of the story. David Olive, I know. He just didn't make the story. Then I went to Northwestern. So I had that experience of being a freshman in college. Then I lived in Chicago on my own for a year and a half before I moved to New York. So by the time I moved to New York, I was, I mean, I thought I was a grown up at 20.

I mean, I was, I had had more than if some of the, some of the other women that I know that started modeling and they were like shipped off to Milan when they were 15. Right. I think they had a harder time with that being, you know, I mean, look, there's a lot of, there is pitfalls in any business. It just seems like there's that. It's pretty brutal on, you know, maintaining your, you know, what you think is what you are like.

I mean, I think the eating disorder thing was a problem and also drugs become a problem. And the fact that you're really seen as, in some ways it seems to me in some circles, that you're sort of seen as playthings for rich people. Right, well, I think David Fincher, who I'm a fan of, and we were talking about it, he's like, your generation of models was the first time

the meat had a say about themselves. But it was so like blunt. The meat. But you know, there was something

it's like what I tell models, you know, it's like, look, this Do you lecture models? Yes.

No, but if someone asked my advice, I'm like, look, this business will use you. So you better use it back. Right. you need to be clear about you know what's right for you right um because it'll take like like like anything right um so you need to be prepared to kind of say no and then use it back when opportunity does present itself and not get like i always say and i and i again i say

in the book modeling is what i do it's not who i am right i think a lot of people it becomes who they are and they lose their identity well yeah because like what i noticed and these are just my observations you know from the little experience i have is that you you know people project so much onto you and and just you know looks alone or whatever they want. So you don't have to volunteer much of anything. You can just move through life. There's a weird power to that, but I imagine it could become pretty tragic because you get insulated and you realize that, you know, what are they really reacting to and who am I really, right? Well, and by the way, if you think it's other than the superficial,

you're kidding yourself. You don't get jobs because you're nice or that you show up on time or whatever you get. Or you're smart. You're either selling the product or the magazine or whatever it is, or you're not. That's it. It doesn't matter. You know, like people always say about casting couches and I'm like, I don't even think you could sleep your way onto a cover of Vogue. It's like, you're either going to sell the magazine or you're not you've got to make sense to the lens so when they ask you back yeah it's because you sold it's not because they liked you right you sold the magazine for them so they're not doing you a favor doesn't matter if you send flowers or don't send flowers I mean it's nice to say thank you for opportunities but it's business

yeah and you gotta you gotta know that yeah and you have opportunities, but it's business. Yeah. And you got to know that. Yeah. And you have to realize like it is brutal. Like you are totally being judged on how you look. I mean, it just is what it is. So like you have to be okay with that. And I think depending on how you were raised and depending on how young you are and what other self-esteem boosters you have in your life. It can be brutal.

But you saw a lot of people fall to the wayside, I imagine. A lot of tragedies or no? I didn't. My husband always teases me because he's like, you're so naive. Because I don't do drugs. So I'm completely oblivious when other people are. Oh, really? And he'll be like, I can't believe you didn't see that.

I'm like, what? I know. So I- That helped you too apparently i think so because and also because i wasn't that girl people weren't offering it to me you know it was just like i guess it was going on oh come on no honestly when did you get to new york in 80 i moved there full-time in 86 well so really so but you started going there in what 84 well that well that's interesting because

a lot of that shit was sort of a little tapering off and a little more quiet yes uh you know like danceteria and 54 and all that shit was over yeah yeah i never went to studio 54 while i mean i've been in it as a space but i never went there like. Like when I was in New York, it was like Nell's and Limelight and Area. Nell's was bad. Yeah. There's drugs at Nell's. Oh, I'm sure. Yeah.

I was just dancing. No, I mean, honestly. Sure, I know. I was just dancing. So yeah, Nell's and Area. And what was the other one? Limelight. Yeah.

I remember that. Oh, Limelight. And wait, there was one. I did drugs all those places and I don't even dance. Did you ever go to Peggy Sue's? Yeah. That was fun for sure. Yeah, it was.

What was it? Was there was a theme there? What was it? It was like on university or something upstairs. That was right. It wasn't too big. It was like, not like a huge club where you just get lost. I just remember when I was like, cause I, we are literally around the same age that

when that was going on, um, you know, I would go with these expectations and you'd get there and it's like, oh, it's just another crowded room. I mean, it's like New Year's Eve. Yeah. It's always like New Year's Eve at those places. Yeah, it is. It's always exhausting. I know what people did there.

You don't talk. You can't talk. No. So if you don't go with a crew of people, how are you going to have fun? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. That's me. But I mean, you must have like not only like when you talk about Nicholsonson and these people you were certainly running in circles where like how close were you with the other

who was your group i know it was who were the group of models that you got associated with i know like christy turlington linda evangelista naomi campbell stephanie seymour yeah tiana petites um i mean there was a gail elli was, you know, and still is a really close friend of mine. You guys were like rock stars. You were like, it was like supermodels and athletes. There was some sort of correlation between, it seemed, the popularity culturally. Yeah, it was a moment for models, for sure, where it was like, and, you know, I do talk about how that David Fincher Freedom 90 video that he did for George Michael really like, I don't know, like that really cemented that whole thing.

That was Fincher, huh? Yeah, I know. Before, yeah. Right. He was doing music videos. Before he was able to manifest his dark vision onto the world. So that's where you grew, you built a relationship with him or you got to know him? Yeah, well I actually had done some commercials

with him. Really? Yeah. They all start doing commercials or music videos and then David's certainly taken it beyond. Yeah, he's a good filmmaker. So you think that was sort of the beginning of the rock star? I think it culminated it because

just culturally what was going on with mtv and music and fashion was colliding and also at the time you know it wasn't like now where there's like 500 channels on right it had it just cable was just coming and all of a sudden there was um more hunger for content yeah so it was a it was a chance because you know i talk about like on mtv before i did house of style on mtv the only fashion you could see on tv was elsa clench cnn which was already i mean amazing that fashion was being covered on tv but it was being covered in a very cnn um sterile covering the collections and you know whatever and then with mtv we did it in a very mtv kind

of way which was more um you know we had then with mtv we did it in a very mtv kind of way which was more um you know we had relationships because of me with designers and with great photographers and stuff so we could cover cool things but we did it in a way like um you know to democratize it and make it like showing naomi campbell putting zit cream on or going to sears with Simon Le Bon and just kind of making fashion not so elitist. Right. And also, I think it was probably one of the first true reality shows, right? I mean, I don't think they were really doing that. Unscripted drama.

Yeah, kind of. Well, you know, we know that they're a bit scripted, but I mean, the humanizing element of this sort of mysterious and seemingly snobby or elite industry was, because models were, like, I don't, you know, look, I've been duped. Like, you know, like, I, you know, there is something, there's a fine line there. You guys are kind of freaks of nature in a way. And I'm saying that. Like an athlete. Yeah, in a way. I guess like an athlete. Yeah. No, exactly. That's what I mean.

Yeah. Like, you know, when you see like a model, there's that moment where you're like, oh, my God, there's one of them. Like I used to live on 16th and like third. And there was an apartment where all these models were living. Model apartment, yeah. Right? And I would walk outside and I felt like I was witnessing some endangered species or some unique animal.

I'm like, oh, they're out. They're walking on the street. Right. That's funny. But I think that people make that assumption that you guys are snobs or don't have personalities. And I think that show was the first to really kind of get behind that. And then the model of that show became used for a lot of different industries. Yeah.

But were you guys all friends? I mean, it's like any business or any office, right? There's some that you really are close to and there's some that you are entertained by, but maybe wouldn't want to, you know, go on vacation with. And there's some that you really are annoyed, you know, that you just roll your eyes at or whatever. It's like, it's, it's, you get the gamut of everything. It's like, you know, no more or no less than if you took a hundred people. Yeah.

Yeah. Right. Right. It's, it's like when people say like, you know, comics seem to have more drugs and alcohol problems. I'm like, really? Have you looked at plumbers or anybody else? Right, right. I mean, everybody's just, you're going to have issues when you're with other people.

Right. I mean, maybe certain careers foster or there's access in a different way. But, no, I mean, I'm still friendly with, you know, like I just did a shoot with Claudia Schiffer. Oh, yeah. And Naomi Campbell for Balmain. did a shoot with um claudia schiffer oh yeah and naomi campbell for balmond and what was amazing was i mean because now especially claudia and i like we have families and kids the the kind of competition is over like we both won right yeah oh good so it's kind of like it's it's like we could just enjoy each other as women we weren't't, it wasn't, like, I remember being 20 years old and, like, backstage at a show.

And, like, you're checking out, you know, everyone's checking each other out because we're all just insecure young women, right? About to hit the runway, you mean? Yeah, like, but you're all changing backstage, right? So you, everyone's just wearing a tiny thong. So you really, you can't hide anything. Yeah, yeah. And everyone's, like, checking each other out. And I felt like it was really nice reconnecting with claudia and i've seen her you know over the years but

we had spent a whole day together and we had a lot of time in the dressing room and it was just like just talking like girlfriends like about kids and you know husbands and school and travel and um and you know i have that with christy turlington. I have that with my friend Gail. Christy's married to the filmmaker. Yeah, Ed Ferns. And they're still together? Mm-hmm. That's good.

Yeah. It's interesting when people are able to manage a marriage. Yeah. She's a great woman and very, she's smart and she's very philanthropic. And, you know, she's a, she's, I think she might be five years younger than me,

but I'm, I feel like a little bit like a big sister. I'm like so proud of everything that she's done in her life beyond modeling because modeling is a great platform, but it's kind of like, if that's all it is for you and you don't take it, take advantage of it, then,

then you're just like, you know, I don't want to be, I'm turning 50 next month and I don't want to be, I'm turning 50 next month and I don't want to be that woman like trying to be 25 when I'm 50. I had a great 25. I had a great 20. I had a great 30. I want to have a great 50 and a great 55. You know, I don't want to be nostalgic for my glory days. I mean, I celebrated, I honor them, I celebrate them, but I don't want to be stuck there.

Well, as somebody who's turning 50 and as somebody who still is visible culturally and dealing with what women deal with at 50 and the idea that you don't want to try to look 25 or whatever, you want to accept your age. I would like to look 25. I'm just saying I don't want to try like i'm trying to look 25 if i just did that would be awesome but do you do is there a way because i like again going back to the reaction to that photo whether it was real or it wasn't real you know part of the struggle for you sort of cultural acceptance as an older woman is real, right? Like, it's hard. Yeah, but here's the thing.

Like, I used to think there was a certain age, and I think growing up in the Midwest, I thought it was much younger. Like, okay, when you're 50, you can just, like, screw it. I'm going to eat whatever I want, and I'm not going to. But first of all, the world doesn't work that way now because, like I said, there's the guy with the cell phone camera when you're at Starbucks. It'd be very exciting for all of them if you just let yourself go. They would be, this is the best thing ever.

Look at her. I don't think my husband would be so big on that. But on the other hand, there is like all these incredible women like Janeane fonda or helen mirren or um viola davis i mean like when i just i'm thinking of the people i saw the golden gloves yeah yeah and they i think they all look amazing and they they look beautiful like they don't look beautiful for their age they just look they're beautiful women but i think the aging thing what i'm learning for me anyway is totally an inside job you cannot it you know because look if you don't feel good about yourself it doesn't matter if a hundred people tell you right and and and the opposite is also true like if you feel good and

someone doesn't like i don't know what you're wearing but but you feel good in it. You feel good. So I feel like for me, it's just figuring out how I want to be in that next chapter of my life. And that's my project. I mean, really, I didn't know this at the time, but in doing the book, I thought, yes, it's a celebration and whatever. But in some weird way, I also see it's like the end. It's like a bookmark on that part of my life because I've done it. I did the modeling thing. Yeah. I mean, of course, I'm still going to get my picture taken because I have my skincare line.

I have Omega watches. I have. And you're Cindy Crawford. Well, and I mean, that's part of what I do. That's my job. So, but I don't want to have to be like trying to do like cool editorial at a certain point. You're like, yeah, you're like, guys, I don't care. I'm too old for this. I just feel silly, you know? And I have like this 14

year old daughter who's like, I always tease her. And I wrote in the book, I'm like, she has my old hair. She has my old legs. I want them back. You know, she's, you know, I just see her blossoming and I want to, I want to leave room for that. Like, I don't want to be competing with my 14-year-old daughter. Sure. And you want to be a good role model. Yeah. So it is.

But it is. I'm not there yet. But that is kind of like my mission, I feel like, at this point in my life is making that transition. Into a 50-year-old woman? Yeah. And being comfortable with it yeah uh-huh and now were there points in your career where because you know modeling obviously doesn't work out as long as it has for you for everyone were there like because it seems

like you're you were very um you know business-minded but there must have been times where you were like fuck this isn't going to last forever. What do I got to do now? Well, when I started, you know, five years was like forever in model years, right? Yeah. So when I moved to New York at 20, it was like, okay, but what am I going to do when I'm 25? You know, I'm going to have to have like the backup plan. And I thought, well, that's when, because I dropped out of Northwestern. I was like, well, I can go back to school and figure it out. Right.

And I'll probably know more what I want to do and then at 25 things were still full when did you get married the first time I was 26 I think yeah so yeah how do you look back at that experience um I was young yeah I didn't think I was young though right but I was young and I because I didn't think I was young, though. Right. But I was young. Because I didn't really know. What was it? How long did that last? I was with Richard for like six years. Oh, really? I was only married for two years.

Uh-huh. Are you guys friends still? We're friendly. But I mean, I think. It's a long time ago, right? I think, yeah. I mean, it's almost like he's gone back to being like Richard Gere again, like a stranger. Because we don't really see each other that much but um when asking if we were friends I mean I think part of the problem

in our relationship was that we were probably we were a lot of other things but I don't know if we were ever friends oh yeah like peers because I was young and he was Richard Gere and um and then as I started kind of growing up and growing into myself right it's hard to change the dynamic of a relationship once you're already in it yeah you know yeah yeah because you get locked into those patterns and those triggers and whatever weirdness you have that you always have emotionally yeah that's what brought you together and that's why when people ask me you know advice about because i've been with with Randy now almost 25 years, and saying, Oh, gosh.

Well, we met. I guess we've only been married 17 years, but we've been together like 23. Yeah. And I say that I think why Randy and I really work is that we were friends first. I never pretended to like baseball or meditation or whatever, you know, whatever the version is. Because I wasn't trying to win. You didn't really like meditation, huh? I liked meeting the Dalai Lama.

Okay, yeah. But I'm not sure I would have gone. I mean, they were great experiences. But, you know, it's like it's that thing where you're on that first date and they're like, you're like, Oh, I love that. And you're like, and then six months later, they're like, let's go to the baseball game.

And you're like, I hate baseball. And they're like, what? It's like, so when you, when you are with a friend and you never did that, and you really showed like your flaws from the beginning,

like I wasn't trying to impress Randy. And he wasn't, he didn't even, we got hooked up. We had to go to a wedding together, but not as dates. Just like he was just chaperoning me because I didn't even we got hooked up we had to go to a wedding together but not his dates just like he was just chaperoning me because i didn't want to go he's a model he was yeah but at the time he i mean he modeled briefly yeah in college to make money and meet girls i think yeah um but he already had his first bar at the time oh he's a restaurateur yeah uh-huh and he had a

bar at the whiskey i mean i mean at. I mean, at the Paramount. Oh, okay. The Whiskey at the Paramount. At the hotel? Yeah. Oh, yeah. I remember that. Yeah.

So we met, and he didn't want to really go out with me because he was dating another model. And I was like, my friend whose wedding it was, was like, well, you can go with one of these three guys. And I knew the other two. And I was like, I'm not going with them. So I'll take this unknown door number three. It was Randy. But he was late picking me up. I was like,'m not going with them so I'll take this unknown door number three was Randy but he was late picking me up I was like you're late like I was yelling at him like the first time I met him which was good because then when I yelled at him later on he

wasn't he'd already seen that side of me yeah oh there's this Cindy yeah exactly I know this one all right so so at 20 you were like what am I gonna I going to do on 25? Yes. And then at 25, it kept, was like my career was like still going great. I had a cosmetic contract and, you know, I was still working a ton. So I was like, okay, this could maybe last till 30. Right. 30, same thing. I was like, okay, give it five more years. Then I started, I did have kids and I definitely, when my kids were really little, I definitely,

that's when we moved to LA and I did pull back a little bit, but there was still, I had contracts, I had things that I was doing. Why'd you move here? Lifestyle. Oh, really?

Yeah, I think we just felt like it was a better, not better, better for us place to raise kids because like, you can have a yard and you're not like,

I don't know, you don't have to overschedule. You chose this over where you grew up. Well, I don't think we would, that wasn't even on the option. You chose this over where you grew up. Well, I don't think we would. That wasn't even on the option. Randy grew up in New York, so it would have either been New York or LA. Right.

And we both just decided we liked LA. But what you're saying basically is that for as long as you're selling magazines or selling makeup or whatever, you're going to work. Or Pepsis or, yeah. Right. And you kept being asked back. Yeah. And so you just kept going. Yeah. And then, yeah. And you kept being asked back. Yeah. And so you just kept going.

Yeah. And then, yeah. Did you at some point, you know, how much, like when you said, you know, your modeling can take, but you've got to take from it. Was there a point where,

you know, you worked with somebody to sort of kind of become a better business person? Or how did that sort of happen? Just through partnerships? I think a lot of it is, I mean, I always a good student so like you're around smart people marketing advertising and if you just pay attention you can learn a lot and then you know i left at a certain point i left my model agency and went with like a well william morris at the time and then now caa

um because they you know model agencies especially back then, they only looked at you as a five-year career. Right. And if it wasn't you, one of their other models was going to get a job. Like, they just churned. They weren't into developing careers. Right. They were into using you. And I think that that is changing in the modeling industry.

But at the time, they were not there yet. So I switched to an agency out here who really helped me. Like, for instance, when I first started working with Omega Watches, the agent that I was working with at the time, our whole thing was like, look, we don't just want to sleep together. If we're going to sleep together, we're getting married. Make her a three-year contract. Learning to, and then I knew they were investing in me and I would invest in them. And that's kind of how I've approached my business

for the last 20 years. It's like, I don't want to just do little things here, little things here, unless I know what I'm getting out of it. Right.

And it's worked out. And you tried acting. I never wanted to be an actress. Right. But you got to try it when you're a model, right? Well. I can't remember. What'd you're a model, right? Well. I can't remember.

What'd you do? I did. Well, the funny thing is the first time I ever even had any thought about acting was I was working with Richard Avedon and he's like, my friend Mike Nichols wants to meet you. He wants you to come audition for him for a movie. And he's like, so when we finish the shoot today, just go over to his office or whatever.

And I mean, I knew who Mike Nichols was, but that was about it. Never had seen a script before, never had read, like never did theater or anything. So I go and he hands me the sides, which I didn't even know were called sides at the time. And he's like, can you read these? So I literally am like, blah, blah, you know,

the Muslim, you know, blah, blah, blah. And he's like, to his credit, he was so funny, he's like, well, you can read.

Yeah. And I realized when he said that that what he meant was act them, but he didn't say act them. Right. He said read them.

Yeah. So to me, I'm a very literal person. I read the script. So that didn't go so well. What was the movie? I think it was Biloxi Blues. And then I had done, I called in on a few auditions for stuff and sometimes I would go, but mostly I didn't have an acting coach or acting class or anything. But then I did do one movie because I knew the producer, Joel Silver, and he's just very persuasive and he's like, you're doing this movie.

And he just kept sweetening the deal to a point where I was like, I'm an idiot if I don't do it. Right. And it was such a nightmare in a lot of ways, but it was also really a blessing because... Which movie? It was called Fair Game with Billy Baldwin,

William Baldwin. Uh-huh. But at one point, the director stopped talking to either one of us. So that was hard because there was no director. He was so mad? He got mad that my trailer was bigger than his. Or I don't know.

He didn't have his green M&Ms. And who was that director? Exactly. He's never done another movie, I don't think. Oh, really? Yeah. He was a first-time director. And really, and it's funny because I'm friends with Joel, but I'm like, I can't believe you did that to me.

Put me with a first-time director because it was like, you know, someone throwing, you know, sink or swim and you didn't know how to swim. You didn't have any guidance and you were used to having people behind the camera that knew what they were doing. Yes. But it was a gift in the sense that it enabled me to go, I'm not comfortable. I like being in front of the camera as myself or as some version of myself. And I like the storytelling of fashion photography. But when you give me lines, and I can do, if you give me lines that are me talking like, hi, I'm Cynthia Crawford for House of Style.

Totally look in the camera, do that. When you give me lines where I'm trying to be somewhere else, look in the camera do that when you give me lines where i'm trying to be somewhere else yeah i just that is just not i feel completely uncomfortable and um don't like it just doesn't feel good to me yeah so i was able to let that go that's good so you just did the one movie yeah and was it did it i got did it get a release oh my god it got released it got p. It got panned. I got panned. Was that hard? I mean, did you feel hurt? No, I was only, no, I was fully expecting it. I mean, I'm not stupid. So I knew I was setting myself, you know.

You knew it was going to take a hit. I wasn't. I don't, I don't, like they acted like it was the worst movie ever made. And I'm not sure that it was. Yeah. And I'm not even sure I was the worst, but I certainly was in in over my head I shouldn't have had a role that big of a role but I was only mad because one journalist I was playing like a lawyer yeah it was really it's an action movie so it didn't matter what I did but I was a lawyer in the beginning of the movie and they were like as

if Cindy Crawford could be a lawyer and I was like I could be a lawyer if I wanted to be a lawyer that was the only thing that pissed me off like the rest I was like, I could be a lawyer if I wanted to be a lawyer. That was the only thing that pissed me off. Like the rest, I was like, of course they're going to, unless I was Meryl Streep. The one thing you took personally was like, I could have been a lawyer. I could have been a lawyer. Yeah. Right. So let's go through, before we wrap it up, let's go, because you have worked with some amazing photographers and I do like the idea of, you know like somebody like Richard Avedon who you

just mentioned is is a genius really uh of photography and and you did a lot of shoots with him right yeah now what what what do you take from working with a guy like that um well certainly his professionalism but I think what I really learned from Avedon was I did my first Vogue cover with him. And he would shoot with the old cameras that we have to go under the cloth. Oh, really? So it's like a very slow process. It's not like click, click, click, click, click, click. No kidding. So he taught me how to bring energy to your face.

Right. Your expression. Have a thought in your eye for that second that he was going to click. Yeah. That's what I learned from him. And about um helmet newton helmet did you just you did some pretty racy stuff right with him yeah um i mean if you're shooting with helmet that's what you're doing that's how he is you know again it's his fantasy right but was that something when that happened you know because that was before playboy and you knew that it was going to be a lot more maybe not, you know, fetishy in a way,

but his vision. Yeah. Was that something you were excited to do? I was excited to work with Helmut. Knew not so much the fetishy part. Knew it was for Vogue, so you knew it was like, it couldn't. Reasonable. It wasn't like, hey, Helmut, it wasn't Helmut saying, hey hey come do some pictures for my new book which could be you know yeah and like i i write in the book that i always teased

him that he wasn't putting a saddle on me um but i i like his he loves women and he sees them as very strong and very powerful but also like not ashamed of it's like not a sanitized woman right or sanitized version of a woman's sexual sexuality right now um he takes risks yeah so i and he's a great director he knows what he wants and you know you're gonna look amazing so i i loved working with him and he's got a wicked sense of humor and um you know and as did his wife was sometimes around. And it just, I loved working with him. And who was the, like out of all of them, I mean, Irving Penn and some of these guys that I don't know, Steven Mizell.

What, like, who were the, like, did you work with photographers that just did shitty? After a certain point, were you only working with the best? Not more than once. No, of course you have to work. I mean, look, at a certain level, you're not working with anyone who isn't at least good but you have the people that you feel photograph you better or you like their style better um it's it's hard i only ever left one job once um in the middle of a job and it was because the lighting was so bad i look

like a jack-o'-lantern and i just called my agency and it was like some german catalog or something and i was like i know there's no amount of money that they are paying me that it's worth it i said you got to get me out of here and they did for their credit yeah um but normally and especially at the more that you gain um power as a model the bigger that you get it becomes a collaboration like if i don't like something i'll say i don't really like that yeah and then they'll work with you and they know that you know what like a lot of photographers will say which side is better for you or what do you want to do and you know that yeah yeah the side with the mole well it's i i do actually say sometimes it looks weird if it's not showing or it causes a weird shadow or whatever.

Oh, really? So, but you do. And that's the skill part of modeling and the experience of it. Like, especially now, a lot of the photographers I'm working with are younger than me. So, I can be like, well, or they'll say, oh, this is so avid. And I'm like, no, no, no. Not really, but okay. If you want to pretend that yeah well you got to work with real guys who shot with on film you know like now that's gone yeah all that stuff all that wow and uh outside of the book what what is the uh the the cindy

crawford uh industry up to what do you got Well, I have a skincare line that I started, gosh, almost 15 years ago. And is it really good? I use it. I think it's great because I collaborated with a doctor in Paris that I was his client. Before? Yeah. Oh, I knew him. I've known him since I was 28.

A makeup artist introduced me to him. And then we started the line. We started working on it when I was 35 when my Revlon contract was up for renewal and I decided to do my own thing. You're going to go, you're going to be a little guy up against the big guys. Well, and it was just, but I wanted, I don't know. I was ready. It was time for me to. Were you unhappy with their products? No, but it's just just you're a model for them you're a spokesperson for them it's different like creating your own thing yeah yeah i was ready for that and then i still have a relationship with omega watches i have a furniture line really um

that doesn't sell we don't have a partner in out in the southern cal area so no one here knows but it's big it's like you know what's it called's it called? It's called Cindy Crawford Home. Really? Yeah. So I do that. Now, when you say you do that, I mean, they show you what they're working on and you're like, I like that. Yeah, I'd say my role is more of editing.

Or, you know, but I can send, like I could say, hey, I really like Mark's desk. I'm going to take a picture of it and go, can we do something like this? Yeah, you can. You can go to Ikea. So, you know, like that's the way that works. And that's been fun. And again, the thing I like about the home business is that it's not requiring me to be 25 on the cover of Vogue or Sports Illustrator. You know, it can grow with me.

And then, you know then I'm a mom and my husband and I really like, well, I don't know how much I like it. We tend to buy houses or build houses and then fix them up and sell them. You guys are flippers? We're not total flippers,

but I don't know. It's something he really likes it and he's very good at it. And so I'm kind of his, I get dragged along. Right, right. You get to pretend you like baseball again. Yeah, yeah.

No, I do like it. I just don't like it when I'm living in it. Right now we're having a situation where I'm living in a project and that's hard. But you're getting, you're making your house better. Yes, exactly. And you guys have had success with that, with the real estate stuff? Yeah, yeah. Oh, that's great.

Is he still in the restaurant business? He actually owns a tequila now called Casamigos with George Clooney. Oh, yeah? And it's been going great. Really? So I'm also a tequila spokesperson now. Do you hang out with the Clooneys? We do.

He seems like a good guy. Please tell me he's a good guy. You're not going to tell me. He's a great guy. He does not disappoint. That's what I always say about George. He has such a great image, and he totally lives up to it. He's funny. He's a great guy. He does not disappoint. That's what I always say about George. Like everyone, he has such a great image and he totally lives up to it. He's funny.

He's smart. He's engaged. He's charming. Great movie star. Yep. That guy. Yeah. And the wife is, she's no, she's, I mean, we always joke when we're around them all

that like, we're like the dumb Hollywood people. Do you know what I mean? She's like really smart. Well, I'm glad that you've brought one over yeah exactly well it's great talking to you yeah you too thanks so that's our show folks uh that was a nice chat with cindy i do need to clarify one thing um well uh i i some of you know me well enough to know, when I was talking to Cindy, that I said

that my first wife was a model. She was not. She was an actress, and now she's a therapist. It was my second wife who was the model. Neither one of them would ever listen to my show, so I don't feel like I'd be offending them, but

I apologize to both if i did and also for everything else i'm gonna play the little guitar and i'm starting to sweat hold on Boomer lives! Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer

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