WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 696 - John Lurie

Episode Date: April 7, 2016

John Lurie has a creative fire that rages without end. But sometimes he can't avoid burning himself. John talks with Marc about his many artistic pursuits, including jazz, acting, scoring films, and painting. John also goes into detail about making his show Fishing with John, as well as smelling like fish throughout the shooting of The Last Temptation of Christ. And, oh yeah, whatever you do, don't call him ‘dude’. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com. Lock the gates! all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck nicks how's it going i'm mark maron this is wtf my podcast welcome welcome all of you in whatever form you come in whatever you're, I hope you're not up to something too dubious. I hope you're trying. I got people coming in out of the garage, having the talks, connecting with folks, most of them strangers, but most of them people that I've admired or certainly have tucked away into the compartments of what define me and my brain culturally. Like today on the show, John Lurie, who some of you may remember from the Lounge Lizards. Some of you might know him from the Jarmusch movies he did, Down by Law and Stranger

Than Paradise. And he was in The Last Temptation temptation of christ some of you might know him from uh some some of his other music uh he's now a painter but uh but he was definitely a presence back in my brain back in high school when some dude laid that lounge lizards album on me that first lounge lizards and just seeing you know john there with his saxophone and having that intensity he naturally has i was like who the fuck is that guy and i'd see him in the groovy movies i'm like this dude means business and he had this sort of a kind of a philosophical crankiness to him that that i definitely thought like you know that guy is a guy i'd probably like and now like decades later after a short spat on twitter about bullshit you know he shows up in la he comes here

with his assistant you know you know he's here uh doing some painting business moving the paintings and you know you know visiting the states a reprieve from his uh island retreat uh and he stopped by and we had kind of a loopy uh discussion and then i took him out for mexican food and and it continued there and i got the feeling that uh he might not go if i didn't need to do other things but we had a great time and and uh that's coming up in a little bit that's coming your way he's a guy that's conquered some demons. And not unlike any of us. Is still in the throes of the struggle with others. Going on the road tomorrow.

I know some of you are coming to see me. In Lincoln. In Iowa City. And in Kansas City. I think Lincoln Nebraska on Saturday. At the Rococo Theater is sold out. I think that the Mission Creek Festival. the Ingler on Friday, tomorrow, might be getting close to that. I'm not sure where Kansas City is on Sunday at the Arvis Bank Theater at the Midland.

But I'm heading out. And I'm looking forward to it. I'm looking forward to the shows because I don't know what's going to come out of me. And I'm a little hard on myself. And I think we're going to have an interesting and funny evening, all of them, unless I completely lose my mind. But I'm looking forward to the driving. There's something about the driving. It used to work.

I sure hope the driving works still as a meditative exercise. still as a meditative exercise, just getting out there and letting your brain kind of relax and go where it's going to go without freaking out. And you're grounded by the innate physical need to drive the car. And hopefully nothing will jump in front of the car and jar my meditative state or wreck my car, my rented car. don't want that to happen again let's read a couple emails hello there mark this is a subject line hello from the uk hello there mark i never write these emails in fact this is the first i am a theater director and my work sees me bounce up and down the uk and across europe like a fucking yo-yo

since dragging myself away from alcohol a year and a half ago i have had to booby trap my life with habits random things outside of my job to keep my shit balanced a series of things to help find interest in the solitary velvet jail that is life on the road one of the things that anchors me and crowbars my brain out of whatever project i am working on is your podcast you're barking through the internet into my headphones does me the world of good. I'm grateful for this, dude. I'm currently directing a production of Midsummer Night's Dream up in Scotland, 300 miles from my home in Manchester.

In my production, the Duke plays blues guitar as the audience enters. He is drunk and is at the end of a long, long party. As the lights change to begin the play, I've asked the actor playing the Duke to growl, Boomer lives. It felt like a suitably cryptic springboard to open the play. I hope you don't mind. Thanks again for WTF. Thank you, Jonathan. I don't mind at all. I'm more than honored to be part of a Willie the the shake production uh you know me and shakespeare have a tenuous relationship but i i i hope he's posthumously happy that i'm cryptically involved in the unfolding of one of his magnificent masterpieces of theater thank you and i'm

serious i'm not being condescending. I'm completely being honest. This is a similar one, but it's a little more intense. So I'm going to roll through it with the energy that this guy wrote it. Subject line. Hey, Mark, thanks for everything. Hey, Mark, my name's Joseph, and it's a little hard to believe I've probably been following the template laid out by all of your other fans with this email. The quick grab for attention. The explanation that I love your show and relate to you and want you to keep doing the good work.

All that's true. And I guess I don't have anything more important to say than anyone else. But if you're interested, I'm a Southerner. And fuck, man, it isn't all picking crawdads out of the creek and barefoot playing. I live about 10 minutes from a fuck ugly statue of nathan bedford forest and that's a problem i'm a writer which means i write things down and then don't get paid for them like the swaths of other artists that listen to your show when you talk about struggling with your comedy but doing it for the love of it well that hits me deep dude i know i do the same with

writing because i have been oh here comes the obligatory drug sharing story but i've been sober for about five months this go around it was tearing me up and no one wants to read someone who's less stream of consciousness and more long form bitching and self-aggrandizing, less Joyce or Faulkner and more shitting the bed. Last time I got fucked up, I drank bourbon, which I still miss, but at least only half the time now. Bought heroin to take the edge off, like playing Jenga with your sanity, and passed out i woke up sunday morning like a velvet underground song and then smoked some crack with one of my lovely neighbors jesus dude i don't know if you've partaken but it was like inhaling adrenaline smoke

laced with flies i was a live wire once was enough for me and i'd be lying if i said you hadn't played a significant role in my recovery it's not an exaggeration to say that my girlfriend, my best friend in the world, and you have all been there for me in different ways. I still crave that junk. I still smoke like a train, and I'm still trying to keep up the will to write and put my stuff out there.

This has been long and convoluted, but I just wanted to shout out and say I think you're doing great work. You're a hilarious comedian and my ghost of Christmas recovery. Next time you come to nashville look out for a long-haired blonde dude with crescents under his eyes sincerely joseph good job man stay with it joseph seems like you're on a roll am i right yeah all right so john lurie i gotta tell

you i was a little nervous about this because uh struck me, you know, just from my experience with him as a fan and in movies. And, oh, Fishing with John was something I didn't mention. Marvin Pontiac, another thing, you know, from some of my my assumptions about him. I thought it I thought it might be a little volatile. So I was a little I was a little edgy, but it worked out pretty good. And we had a nice time and a nice dinner after this conversation that we had that you were about to hear. You can go to johnlurieart.com to check out everything John makes. Beautiful painter.

This is his song, Small Car, off the album, the legendary Marvin Pontiac, Greatest Hit. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. Thank you. highly regulated category and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. creative. Calgary is a city built by innovators. Innovation is in the city's DNA. And it's with this pedigree that bright minds and future thinking problem solvers are tackling some

of the world's greatest challenges from right here in Calgary. From cleaner energy, safe and secure food, efficient movement of goods and people, and better health solutions, Calgary's visionaries are turning heads around the globe, across all sectors, each and every day. Calgary's on the right path forward. Take a closer look how at calgaryeconomicdevelopment.com. I only know one other guy, two other people that have the Lyme disease. Oh, a lot of people have it. Right, but me personally. Yeah.

So I don't know what the hell, how do you fucking figure out you have it? I mean, where'd you get it? Did you get it when you were fishing? I mean, I got it. I got Lyme disease in the Hamptons or in North Haven in 1994. So you've known that long? Well, no. Yeah. Because, you know, you take the antibiotics.

Yeah. And then it's supposed to be gone. Right. At least back in 1994, that's what they thought. Right. And then about four or five years later, I started having what they said, oh, you've got chronic fatigue.

Because I would just get, you know, I would get dizzy and achy, and I was on that TV show Oz, right? Oh, yeah, I remember that. And I used to be able to remember 20 pages of dialogue. Yeah. Now I got four lines, and I'm reading them over and over again i'm recording them and

hearing them back i can't remember my four lines right and then they told me that you know new characters are naked on the show so i started working out like crazy because i wanted you know yeah and i worked out one day and then i had this attack oh like like're on LSD in a boat in a storm and your heart's doing this weird stuff and you can't walk in a straight line and your vision's... So I went to the hospital and no, you're not having a heart attack.

And I just thought it's one of those weird things. Right, right. Age, anxiety, something. Then three days later it happened again. Like you go out, you trip and your vision gets you trip and your your vision gets fucked up and your heart's beating too fast you get migraine aura i get this thing where um my vision would be like static electricity oh my god roaring in your ears yeah prickling

like bee stings almost in in your nerves and your heart doing weird stuff and my left leg wouldn't work hot you know oh my god i mean it's a it's a horrible but when you don't know you know it's and your heart doing weird stuff, and my left leg wouldn't work. Oh, my God. I mean, it's a horrible, but when you don't know. You know what's fucked up about me, the Jew that I am? I'm sitting here going, oh, maybe that's what I have. So now you think you've got it? No, I just have these weird, for years, I've had tingling and achy hands and feet.

And that's a fairly standard anxiety issue. And I've gone to doctors. They did the, I did MRI. I did, you know, reflex, disinvited neuropathy. Nothing. I got nothing. And it's just sort of, it's just sort of there. Sometimes I notice it.

Sometimes I don't. But my hands and feet feel like they're electric sometimes. Well, that's one of the things. I get this electric thing down my left arm and left leg. Like it's like, you know. Like a shock though. Yeah. Mine's sort of an ongoing current. Yeah, it's one of the things. I get this electric thing down my left arm and left leg. Like it's like, you know. Like a shock, though. Yeah. Mine's sort of an ongoing current.

Yeah, it's an ongoing current. And then there's a shock thing, too. But I don't know if I've had any other symptoms. I mean, how. But you know. Right. I mean, we all got shit wrong with us. Yeah, I know.

And you got to live with it, right? And the neurologists have no idea what's going on. Why can't they figure that shit out? We can go to space. Why can't they figure out the human vessel? Because it's relative to genetics and all kinds of other shit well that's really one of the things it's so interesting yeah because when you got Lyme all all your symptoms all your systems stop working you have a what's called a barogland or something and its job and they don't know how it

works yeah is to rate it's a mystery is to regulate the body so that the body knows when it's standing up or sitting down. So it increases the blood flow to the brain when you're standing up. But they don't know how it works. Yeah. The real miracle is that we all have these barrel glands that work and take them for granted. But really, when it comes down, it was like, why is any of this shit actually working? I know. Why? I mean, that's the real. And so, of course, they don't understand. Take a lot for granted but really when it comes down it was like why is any of this shit actually working i know why i mean that's the real and so of course they don't take a lot for granted yeah we take a lot for granted i know you know it's just amazing that you know the consciousness the curse of consciousness is that we just kind of go along until something goes

wrong well this shit that happened to me i mean you would think it was really terrible but really i know what the hell to expect. I thought you were going to come in here like gray as a ghost, kind of shaky. I got a phone call. Can't have any Windex in out here. Well, that's really actually true. Well, I don't have any out here, but I know. I'm just saying that that Windex in particular, just like.

Really? Yeah. Knocks you out? I can't think. Really? I cannot think. Windex in particular yeah uh-huh so so i guess for years then people thought you were probably losing your mind

well no i mean i had 2002 and then i just started looking for what was wrong with me and it took me a long time and then i finally found out it was lime but that was like it was four years before i was certain because theme people are so on a crusade to prove that their illness is real, especially back then. Yeah. And they were being persecuted by the insurance companies and the CDC. Oh, right. They couldn't get any help. Well, not only that, they were being sued.

And then you'd be diagnosed with Lyme and told that you have to be on IV antibiotics, but I can't give them to you. So you have to get- Find a guy. You have to find a doctor or a GP who will put you on. And I found this great guy, this Dr. Kaufman, who did it. You know, I was sick for years in my apartment, and I would be so lonely. In New York?

Yeah. And yet somebody would come by, and all they have to do is pick up a glass and put it on the table, and they go, oh, you can't do that. Oh, my God. Like your whole body hurt when they did that? I mean, everything bothers you. Everything bothers you. It's just like.

And what about, who were you before that? A guy that nothing bothered? No, I was always sensitive and cranky. Yeah. I mean, you know. Yeah, yeah. So you're living with it and you seem okay today anyways. Yeah.

I mean, it comes and goes. I mean. When did you do the fishing show? What year was that? We started in 91 and finished them in 93. So this is before the line. Oh, way before the line. But then there was a legal problem with them,

and I had to wait like seven years to get them back. I didn't get it out until 98. I didn't edit them. What was the legal problem? It was a mess. I mean, this Japanese company had given me the money to do them. Yeah. It's a long...

How many did you do? Six. So you did one with Tom. Tom. You did one with... Charmish. Yeah. Two with Dennis Harper.

Harper. Yeah. Harper. Harper. Dennis Harper, right? Yeah. Yeah. And Willem and Matt Dillon.

Willem Dafoe and Matt Dillon. Yeah. Interesting. and willem and matt dylan willem defoe matt dylan yeah interesting here's the funny thing about you is that i had the fucking first lounge lizards record when i was in like high school oh so you're younger than me that's what yeah a little bit but yeah what year was that though because it was i don't remember how i got it or why 79 right 80 right right so i'm in high school the band started the record came out in 81 so So someone gave me this record. I didn't know nothing about where jazz came from

or what jazz was necessarily. And some hipster, a guy I knew at a record store, said, you got to listen to this. And I listened to that, and I'm like, what the fuck is, what is happening? Like, it was one of those things where it kind of blew my mind, and I couldn't stop listening to it, even though I didn't know,

I didn't have enough foundation in music or in jazz to really get what you were doing. Was that the first thing you ever did in terms of artistic output? No. I mean, I did a thing in London. No, I did a thing in – actually, the first thing I did was a thing in Boston in my apartment. Yeah. Was that a lot of people see that? No, like eight, you know, like eight people. And then I did a couple of things in London. And then the first thing I did in New York was this performance piece, which started with the saxophone solo. And then, and I made this tape of static electricity going,

and I started swinging this, what looked like a baseball bat, but was actually hollowed out balsa wood so I could go faster and faster and faster and faster. And the last section was I had gone over the docks and smashed all these glass windows and recorded it, and I played over the top of that. Yeah. When I had my brother and some other people stand up and start screaming in the middle, you know, so. God, why, you know, there was a time

where you could do shit like that. Yeah. Now, let's go. We could still do shit like that. But, like, you know, but back then, you know, that when there was a sort of, kind of a chaotic performance art scene in New York, that there was stuff like that happening.

You know, and some people were good at it, some people not so good at it, but people were compelled by it. You know, now, you know, as time goes on, you know, and... Now, you can still do it and lose your $500 to do it. I know, but... But people are so geared to, like, their career and, you know... Exactly, and the internet, too. I mean, live performance is not

what it used to be no so where do you come from why do you point at me when you ask me that question where do you have you ever been a member yes where does this particular jew i was i was born i was born in minneapolis is that weird well i? Well, I mean, because I won't get too Semitic, but I'm always fascinated with the Midwestern Jewish population. Were your parents from there? No, no. My mother was Welsh Protestant. My dad was a New Yorker.

I want you to be all Jew. So I'm going to make you all. Was your mother Jewish? Was your mother Jewish? Yeah, but mine wasn't. You read so Jew to me. I do? Yeah.

Okay. But. She's laughing. Am I right? I do. I wasn't sure. I didn't know until now that you were Jewish. Well, I hide it unless you know me.

You got to know. Yeah. You got to know? I'm kind of Jewish. Anyways. I don't practice or anything, but you know, culturally. Wait, what was the question? How did we end up there?

Well, you're from Minneapolis, and I just know that there was this... I get sort of obsessed with where Jews, how they end up in the Midwest, and I know that Dylan comes from there, and Mitzi Shore comes from there, and there was a Jewish community in the Midwest early, early. Okay, that's not... My dad went to NYU. Yeah. To do what?

He wrote the whole literary magazine under pseudonyms and was going to be the next James Joyce. Oh, really? They really, but instead of writing, he went to the South and organized farm workers. And then after the war, he was labeled as a communist. After the Second World War? He went to the Second World War. That's where he met my mom. They he was labeled as a communist. After the Second World War? Mm-hmm. He went to the Second World War. That's where he met my mom.

They went to Germany for a while. They moved to Harlem. And then he couldn't get work. And he sold Israeli bonds, which there was a lot of old commies. And they put him in Minneapolis to start their first thing. Oh, yeah? To sell bonds? Yeah. And then they moved us yeah? To sell bonds? Yeah.

And then they moved us to New Orleans. Really? Yeah. So how old were you when you moved to New Orleans? Six. What'd you take in? What do you remember? What hit you in the head?

Well, I became obsessed with snakes. Oh, yeah? I would go and hunt for snakes every day. There's a lot of snakes in your paintings. There's a few. I've seen a few snakes. Yeah. They get boring to paint. But yeah, there lot of snakes in your paintings. There's a few. I've seen a few snakes. They get boring to paint,

but yeah, there's some snakes in the paintings. I don't know. Obama was making fun of you for having all the pictures of yourself on the wall and I was going to send you

a print of one of the paintings. I want a painting. How much did I go for? I'll send you one for in here. Yeah. And then every time Obama comes,

you go, that's a John Lurie painting. You know John Lurie? Because if he buys one then because the whole art world thing i know dating a painter right now it's just who bought your painting oh yeah yeah it's fine it's 10 people the art world it's 10 people and it's a bad it's the worst high school click you ever came across but we just had this great thing in italy which was just so because i was getting fed up yeah we had a show in Milan. It's still up. The gallery was wonderful.

The curator was wonderful. The press was wonderful. I mean, it was just like... Everything worked. It was just for real. It was just... Did you sell some? Yeah, a whole bunch.

Oh, that's great. It's great because we were down to like bumping along the bottom with money there. Oh, yeah? Yeah, it really kind of got bad. So you moved to New Orleans. You're obsessed with snakes. How long were you there?

Two years. No music entered. Might have done, but I'm not sure. And then where do you go? Worcester, Massachusetts. Wow. What year was that? The year the world ended.

What year would that have been? I know a few people from Worcester. What year would that have been? I was born in 52. I mean, I must have been i know a few people from worcester what year would that have been i was born in 52 i mean i must have been nine but so worcester was still a functioning relatively industrial city it wasn't uh as opposed to what it is now it's a little beat up by the time i was in the it was a rough it was a rough place it was a rough place yeah i mean you know like the the bus station there really feels like that there's i, it really feels like there's a dome over Worcester and God isn't allowed in.

It really is kind of bleak. The end of the line. Yes. And where'd you go to college? I didn't go to college. So when did the music start? Why aren't you going to point at me when you ask that? Why?

When did you go to college? When did you go to college when did you go to college and then you go i didn't go to college i knew it my dad died my senior year in high school or i would have gone to college yeah yeah because he was a big academic he was all about academics oh so you were on your way and then he passed away and you're like i ain't going well he passed away like the week before my college boards, and I colored them in with like turkeys chasing pilgrims. Yeah, yeah. How did he pass?

Emphysema. Smoker? Yeah. Yeah. Did you smoke? Yeah. Not anymore. Yeah?

Do you smoke? No, not anymore. I take these nicotine lozenges constantly. Constantly. I chew the gum constantly. I love these. These are likeenges constantly. Constantly. I chew the gum constantly. I love these. These are like candy. You suck on them.

They're the best. The gum, like eventually you just keep chewing it even when the shit's gone. This stuff, you actually have a little more control over. You can pace it out. It's like having a real nice comforting drug experience. Like this four milligram. So in the morning. Are they paying you to say this?

No, dude. They're not. Don't call me dude. All right, man. Bro, listen. Bro. Oh, yo. But where does the music come in?

When do you start blowing a harp? When do you start, like, what was going on in high school? Because you're an impressive musical mind that did some weird shit, and I want to know how that happened. My sister gave my brother a harmonica for his birthday yeah when he's 14 i'm 15 or 15 and 16 yeah and i stole it from him and got good on it really really fast from listening to did you like the little walter we became so obsessed with little Walter.

Rollercoaster? Could you play rollercoaster? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No shit. No, I could play. I mean, within a year, I mean, I could play it. I sat in with Candide and John Lee Hooker. Damn.

And Mississippi Fred McDowell. Where? Mississippi Fred McDowell was in Worcester. He was playing there, and somebody said, John, take out your harmonica. Take out your harmonica. And so in between songs I finally did, I sort of like did a riff and he invited me up on stage. No shit. Now, it was just him, right?

Yeah. On an acoustic. Yeah. And that was his resurgence by that point. The Mississippi, like they went and found him. Yeah. And they, oh yeah. So he's playing slide guitar and you're riffing.

How, was it a big crowd or was it a folk crowd? No, it was. A bar? It was some coffee shop. But you went to see him, huh? Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. Great. And then with Canned Heat and John Lee Hooker together.

We hitchhiked from Worcester to New York. Yeah. To see them at Carnegie Hall. Who, Canned Heat? Canned Heat with John Lee Hooker. I have that record. It's great. Oh, that's Alan Wilson makes that shit.

Oh, man. And he had just died. He had just OD'd. The harmonica player? Yeah. Of Can He. But he was really kind of like the Brian Joe. I mean, he was really the soul, musical soul.

He was a genius, actually. And we had nowhere to go afterwards. My uncle had this apartment on 57th Street, but we didn't really have anywhere to go. We were just standing on the corner of 6th and 57th. Yeah. And they came out. After the show?

Yeah, like at half an hour. And I said, you know, I play the harmonica, and I'm very serious about it. I'm a kid. Yeah. And I'll hitchhike to wherever you're playing next, and I'll meet you there if you let me sit in. And they said, okay, we're at the Philadelphia Spectrum. And they just lost their guy. Two months before, three months before.

But, you know, there they were. Right. So we hitchhiked to Philadelphia and snuck into the Spectrum at like three in the afternoon. They didn't even put you on the list? Well, we didn't even know about the list. Right, right, right, yeah. We snuck in and we sort of hid in the basement. And then we kind of worked our way up to the dressing room.

Like, they were all, you know, it was so shocking. It was like, they were all so happy to see me. Like I was some long lost friend. And they said, well, play a little bit. And so I did. like they were all you know it was so shocking was like they were all so happy to see me like i was some long lost friend and they said well play a little bit and so i did and then they said okay come on out and i played in front of 20 000 people oh my god you suddenly you're thrown out in front of 20 000 people and you're 16 years old and you play it. I think it went okay. And then you leave the stage. And then you're in this kind of nasty part of town, I mean, where the Spectrum was.

And so we're just wandering around. Finally, the police came by, said, you can't walk around this neighborhood at 2 in the morning. We have nowhere to go. And they drove us over to Temple University and we slept on the couches there and then hitchhiked back. Oh, God, that's a good story. So you were a blues guy.

Starting. Yeah, but you loved it. Yes. And then how does it start to change? When did you pick up a saxophone? So, I mean, how I got the saxophone is just a bizarre story that nobody believes, but I'll tell you. But basically, all the musicians I looked up to were from Boston, and they were all into jazz. Boston guys?

Yeah, Boston, really good blues players, but they were all listening to Dolphy and Coltrane and stuff. I listened to that shit. It was like, is this Chinese? I don't get it. And so because there was something I didn't understand, I started, but how I got the saxophone, nobody, I'll tell you the story. Okay. Because this was like God coming and saying, John, this is what we want. But up to that point, you played harmonica and guitar, no guitar?

I played guitar, yeah. Were you good? Not yet. I was also studying classical guitar, but harmonica was the thing I was good on. Where were you studying classical guitar? There in, you know, with a- In Worcester with a guy? At a music store or what?

No, at some guy's house. Yeah. Some bitter guy. Yeah. You know, hated everything. Yeah, hold the guitar on the other knee. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. So all these guys in Boston, saxophone. So Babe Pino was the big harmonica guy in Boston. I couldn't stand him. Like really creepy hair and creepy clothes. And he just had some licks. He wasn't really good. He just had these impressive licks oh yeah but they came to worcester to play yeah with michael avery who

was my you know i was close with michael and um bob bob margolin who who played with muddy waters yeah yeah i know that name muddy waters used to call him guitar goonie yeah and um but i asked to sit in. Michael. But Michael was uncomfortable because it was Babe Pino's gig and he was a harmonica player. And then I sat in. Yeah. But they didn't give me Babe Pino's pride special microphone.

Right. I just had this Shure microphone and there was nothing in the monitors. But I'd never been on stage before, so I don't even know even know but it's a disaster i can't hear a note i'm playing and i'm playing so hard trying to hear myself that it's just musical nonsense and they kind of like sneer at me afterwards and i'm you got set up well not exactly you have a good mic they didn't give you a monitor but i just thought this is going to be the kid comes on below the kid is good and it's going to be carried out on their shoulders. And it was a disaster.

And my dad had just died. And I colored in my college board. So if I don't go to college, I'm going to go to Vietnam. And I'm just depressed. And I'm just walking around Western Massachusetts at 3, 4, 5 o'clock in the morning. I'm supposed to go to high school in a couple hours. And I'm just like. And I run into this guy and he's got a wheelbarrow full of dirt.

This fat black guy with this weird smile on his face on Main Street in Worcester, Massachusetts at four o'clock in the morning when there's nobody. So I start talking to him. Yeah. And so I start talking to him. And he tells me that he's just seen a statue turn into an angel and fly away. And this is the kind of thing I'm looking for at this point. And so then he starts explaining to me that you could make amplifiers out of cotton. And I walk him home. And his mother's sleeping, so I have to be quiet.

And he gives me a bicycle and a tenor saxophone with no case. So I have to ride the bicycle home with the saxophone. That's how I started playing the saxophone. He had a wheelbarrow full of dirt, a bicycle, and a saxophone. Oh, he was going to plant an organic garden on his roof. So he stole his dad's saxophone. No, no, I brought them back. In a week, it was his saxophone.

Yeah. So that's how you got the saxophone. The first one, and I practiced and practiced. And I had this. You didn't take any lessons? No. You just had a feel for it? No, but what had happened was I was determined after the guitar lessons

to approach this from a completely innate thing. I didn't even buy a finger chart for the first several months. And I would just go up onto this Newton Hill, which was in the middle, and just blow my brains out for hours in the middle of the night. Just... Because that was kind of the style then. Yeah. And then slowly but surely, I got a finger chart

and figured out the notes and started... Yeah. And then how did you not go to the war? I got a high lottery number. Scary, huh? Well, no, because I had friends who got out. They would put like peanut butter in the crack of their ass you know about this i've heard about the stories and apparently it worked you know they

eat the yeah they eat the peanut butter how many times they got to see that stick before they're like you know what all these guys can't be eating their shit no but i think that even if like even if they knew it was only peanut butter they think well if the guy's gonna bother to do that let's just let him go so when was the first uh combo oh not forever so you're just jamming sax by yourself yeah practicing on my own yeah and what are you where you working at that point you stayed in worcester no i moved moved to boston yeah i went to london boston where'd you live in boston man brookline oh yeah yeah I lived up in Brookline. But then I went to London, and I would play at saxophone on the street. You just went to London by yourself?

Well, my mother, after my dad died, moved to Wales, back to Wales to take care of her mom. Oh, really? And then my brother was over there living in a squat. In Wales or London? In London. He was in London. My mother was in Wales. And he made it sound like

it was wonderful there. As I got there, it was just like, this is a disaster, Evan. You know? How bad was it? No water, no heat, no... Sometimes, sometimes, sometimes. What was he doing?

He loved it. What was he working on? He was playing the piano. Yeah. And this is what, the 70s? Early 70s? I don't know what year this is. I don't know.

Maybe I'm 20, 21. 50, 60, 72, right? 73. Yeah, 72, 73, yeah. Uh-huh. So I started playing the saxophone on the street. Yeah. Annoying people?

Were people putting money in to stop you? Like that guy in the train in New York? to stop you like that guy in the train in new york there used to be a guy in the train new yorker would get on a car and be so irritating with the fucking sacks you gave him money to stop basically you've seen him no but i'll pay a lot of people to stop playing music i mean i pay some large dollars for a lot of people to stop playing all right so you're doing that are you playing playing lyrically? Are you playing Coltrane riffs? Are you making sense? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

No, I'm playing, you know, I mean, going back and forth. I'll play Sweet Georgia Brown and then a Coltrane thing, and I'm not, like, squawking my brains out. Yeah. I'm finding stuff. I'm not out of control. Yeah. But I discovered, I mean, one night I'm playing, and you know, the soccer guys, the football

yabos, what are they called, yabos? Yeah, I don't know. They're out of control. And I'm in Piccadilly Circus, and some guy just comes by and punches me in the face. I got my eyes closed, and I'm playing, and I end up on the ground. Yeah. And then I discovered, when all these soccer guys are in Midtown, or whatever you would call it, you get them to stand behind your saxophone

case and sing their song yeah team song and people just throw a fucking fortune into your case it works great until the other fans of the other team come by and start fighting with them and then you kind of like close up your case and move to the next corner so you're a front man for a soccer team that you switch sides on every once in a while? Yeah, yeah, switch sides and then run away. That's good. And then once I got arrested, I mean, they're so polite there. You know, they said,

you must stop playing now or you will be picked up. Okay, I keep playing and they come and they arrest me. And I get arrested with all the one-man band guys, you know, with the drums on their back and the guitar and the budgie man, the guy who has all the birds-man band guys you know with the drums on their back and the guitar

and the budgie budgie man the guy who has all the birds that do the tricks yeah and dancing hitler and all these guys right dancing hitler and of course that that famous guy the dance he was famous you didn't think he really may have been hitler so don't don't turn your nose up at the dance so we're in this cell the size of this room, and I think there's going to be some kind of camaraderie, you know? But most of them are junkies, like waiting to get out of there at 8 o'clock so they can get... And they're the meanest fucking people I ever met.

And plus, I'm a yank. They really hate me even more. So you're getting shit from the guy with the drum on his back? The police were much nicer than the musicians. The police were very apologetic, you know? Did he go to New York next? Where did I go do i go yeah i came back and went to new york yeah and now now so now it's what 70 what 78 so really yeah so that's when shit is kind of wild there right i mean it's getting a little better economically but it's still a little blown out the lower east side is for real

i mean i lived on i mean i don't know i mean i don't know what was i got a job my uncle got me a job at the plaza hotel doing what i was the night housekeeping dispatcher which was really perfect are you playing music well i'm practicing still yeah i'm trying to find god through the saxophone basically is what i'm doing and so but after 4 to 6 o'clock, I would have to work. And after that, there would hardly be anything unless Milton Berle wanted some more pillows, and I'd have to send them down. But otherwise, I could go up into the- Really?

Did you get Milton Berle pillows? Yes, I sent them. Yes. Yeah? Yes. Did you get to talk to him? Did you deliver the pillows to Milton Berle? No, you call somebody who brings them down.

Oh, you couldn't even go do the thing. Well, not like I wanted to. What do you mean to Milton Berle? No, you call somebody who brings them down. Oh, you couldn't even go do the thing. Well, not like I wanted to. What do you mean, it's Milton Berle? You know what I'm... You weren't curious? At the time, no, I might be now. But no, I was... No, you know...

Fuck Milton Berle at the time. Yeah, no, it's like just... And I would practice up on the roof, you know, and hope to not miss any calls. Yeah. Plus, you could also get keys to rooms. Yeah. You knew were vacant and sleep there.

Oh, you did that? Yeah. The plaza? It's nice. Then my horn got stolen and I moved to Boston. Oh, boy. I drove a cab and did some sort of scams a little bit and then I moved back to New York for good.

Scams? Well, if I, yeah. I mean. Is there statute of limitations? Like what? Is there? Probably. I don't

know did you kill someone no all right i went i went what if i'm like forget it not what it's kind of good all right well then let's do it and then you think about it you call me later in a panic you call your lawyer and ask him if it's all right i don't have a lawyer well okay, okay, I'll call my lawyer. What was the scam? I thought, well, what if I couldn't work because I was psychologically unable, but not so bad that they'd have to put me somewhere. Right.

So I went to see this kind of junior league social psychiatrist kind of thing. Yeah. And said, you know. And then she recommended me for supplement social security. Uh-huh. And then I got like 200 bucks a month. Okay. For being slightly off.

Yeah. Did you play it up? What did you do? I would kind of just, you know, they'd send you to these government psychiatrists and they would just sort of like suss him out to know what you know yeah like you know do you hear voices and if you found if you looked at him directly in the eyes and he was terrified then you just keep staring him at the eyes then he signs your paper and sends you away okay yeah yeah yeah so you know you just kind of figure it out. But then I went to get my money, you know.

You know, I was always kind of crazy people on this gigantic thing and this guy comes in and he goes, I want my money! And he's this fat guy and he gets down on one knee

and holds his fist up over his head. I was like, man, he's got me beat. I want my money! And they just wanted him out, you know. Yeah, yeah. And they gave him his money

and got him out, you know. Sort of. I couldn't go that far, you know. It was a theme. It was like the saxophone angle, know? Yeah, yeah. And they gave him his money and got him out, you know? Sort of. I couldn't go that far, you know? It was a theme. That was like the saxophone angle, too. Yeah, right. Yeah. So, all right, so then what?

You moved to New York permanently? I moved to New York, yeah. And what was the plan? There wasn't a plan. Well, you must have wanted to do something. I really never had a plan. You got a saxophone. I had a saxophone.

200 bucks a month for being a fake lunatic. Yeah, and I started dealing pot a saxophone. I had a saxophone. $200 a month for being a fake lunatic. And I started dealing pot a little bit. Oh, yeah, back when people had to come over and you weren't delivering pot. No, no, yeah, yeah. Did you meet some good people? No, I was terrible at it, too. And then I moved to Third Street and got this $55 a month apartment. Oh, yeah?

Yeah. Between what and what? 2nd and 3rd, where the men's shelter block was. Yeah, I lived on 2nd between A and B. Oh, that's close. Yeah, we were neighbors. When was that? It was 89 to 92.

Oh, I was gone by then. Yeah, yeah. So then we started the band. You and your brother? Arto Lindsey. Yeah, Arto Lindsey. Antron Fear and Steve Piccolo. Oh, shit.

Yeah. That was the original Lounge Wizards? Lindsay. Yeah, Ardo Lindsay. Anton Feer and Steve Piccolo. Oh, shit. Yeah. That was the original Lounge Wizards? Yeah. That's a monster lineup. It really was. Yeah, man. Anton Feer can really play the drums. I mean, it's like I kind of didn't really know at the time how good he was, but he was really good.

Yeah, he went on to do Golden Palominos, right? Yeah, yeah. He's still playing? Yeah. Steve Piccolo's really musically brilliant too yeah and arto's got his thing yeah i mean everyone's got their thing yeah the the context was not pop music it was definitely experimental well what came right before us yeah and it seems like now it was 10 years before us but it was like probably two weeks, were Theoretical Girls, Boris Beliesman, The Contortions, DNA,

which were probably about 10 days after television blondie talking heads. I mean, but this kind of wilder stuff. Yeah, yeah. And then we were right after that, but it was just, there was no time at all. Right. But it seems like. Right. It must have been several

years in between those different generation yeah yeah so you kind of picked up where they left off kind of but i would my thing was in jazz you know deeply deeply in jazz and you were doing that you were you were writing you were you were composing yeah but more improvising or not did you write music what i was doing first was i wanted to make a serious movie, and I had the naive idea that if I wrote the score first, it would be easy. Because I watched these people with scripts trying to get money to make it. I was like, that's no fun. I don't want to do that.

So I wrote the score for a movie I wanted to make called Fatty Walks. Right. And I thought, if I write the music, I'll go into the money people and play these things and explain what's happening. And this is... That's the most backward thing I've ever heard. You're going to go in and pitch a movie like, look, it doesn't matter what the movie is.

Just listen to this. So you would play it. What, you'd play a little bit? I know it was silly, but... No, I like it. It didn't... I mean, I never even got that far because then, you know, the Lounges was at their first gig and that was the music that we used for that first gig.

Was the Lounge Wizards, were you trying to do something serious or not? No, it was what's a good band to play on a Monday night before Peter Gordon. Yeah. I said, oh, my band, not having one. And then I had this music I was working on and we threw this thing together.

Yeah. And Tony actually made us rehearse. Otherwise it would have just been because me and Ardo were kind of sloppy those days. And we were the eldest. What, drug sloppy? No, sloppy about

doing the thing. Me and Ardo did this thing. After the lances, it was like six months into it. Yeah. Ardo wanted to do a thing at the kitchen. And the kitchen was a big deal then. It was almost like, bam. Yeah.

Let's apply to do something at the kitchen. I was like, what? I said, let's do a dance performance, Ardo. Because I'm just fucking with him. He said, OK. Yeah. And so he applied, and we got it. Yeah.

And so what it says in the program is, two lanky fellows jump up and down for their money, and that's it. And it was so embarrassingly bad. And, I mean, people just, it was just the worst thing. How did you judge the worst then, when people were doing such experimental shit? This wasn't even trying to be good. I mean, we played this Morricone music and, you know, that...

And Leonardo, we had a sunset projected against the wall. Yeah. And Leonardo in cowboy outfits just sort of stood there with our hands on our hips. Yeah. For a long time. Yeah. And then... I mean, it was kind of a fuck you

to the performance thing, you know. And then this cloppity-clop, and we sort of started cloppity-cloppitying around. Then we did dance improv for about four minutes. It was called I Love a Tornado. What else are you going to call it? And then we built this tornado structure, and we had this wind machine that didn't work.

So we got inside there and shook it. And then we got out and took a bow and people sort of left grimly. And Evan, who was still there, said, you guys have a lot of nerve. I mean, I think he would have left too if he wasn't my brother. He kind of had to stay.

You know, we kept gigging. I remember walking down the street with Ardo. I was like, if I could just make 200 bucks a month doing this, that would just be unbelievable. Doing the cowboy stick? No, doing, I was never going to do that. I was embarrassed. Yeah. So, alright, so you do the Lounge Wizards.

I want to get into the movies and stuff, because you definitely have people, you know, you're a memorable guy. So you tour with the Lounge Wizards? Yeah, that's all we did forever. For how long? Oh, from 82 to 98, 99.

Jesus Christ. That's what I did for years and years and years. And we couldn't even get record deals. I mean, I put out some of the records on my own. Yeah. But basically, yeah. How was the audience? Did it hold

up i mean oh you i mean in europe we played in milan one night sold out place 5 000 people winter marcellus was down the street it was a quarter full patty smith was the other way yeah it was a quarter full we you know we were packed packed everywhere all the time in europe and japan yeah america would be like 150 people right you know like so most of your money was made international touring yeah and when you were like when you were in new york when it started what you were like sort of one of a kind in that period right there was no one doing what you were doing it was mostly what was it was that after no wave or before right after so was kind of punk rock still or what was going on down there it was a little confusing i mean what only i mean the band didn't get good till like 80 84 yeah we were kind

of this novelty act in the same the same lineup or did you know we switched a couple times yeah did you play with mark reba reba yeah yeah reba was came into the second band yeah he's a trippy guitar player man he's a great guitar yeah and so like and so he ended up playing a lot of uh the weights albums as well right and you're friends with tom not so much anymore and you know tom came you know came to see us a whole bunch of times and then stole my guitar player reba right yeah that's kind of like it, kind of lower than stealing somebody's girlfriend. You don't steal somebody, because it was a band, you know?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That was not right. But didn't you, but when did, so, but did that happen before or after you did Fishing with John with him? Before. So you guys were okay to do the fishing show? Yeah.

Yeah, but yeah. I mean, it wasn't like, I'll kill you you you stole my guitar player but it was just kind of like come on man you know it's not the right thing to do you know do you like his shit some of it yeah yeah yeah yeah he's actually really unusual yeah where he was nervous to do the fishing show was he which shocked me yeah because who who on earth could be better to just throw out random lines about what's happening because he's a genius and there's nobody like him yeah you know there's one thing where he's casting we're using live bait and he

casts awkwardly and the fish smashes onto the and i said come on tom the idea is to keep him alive yeah he goes well i'm not a doctor and but he's just as you know and so that he was nervous to do it where he was the best equipped person to do it right was was weird to me well when did you first start acting i haven't started yet yeah kind of well i made these super 8. But what happened to the Walking with Fatty movie? That never happened. What was that about? It was just about the weirdest things I'd encountered in New York as a young man going from one thing to another.

There were some bad guys and like, yeah. Loose plot. Yeah. But I made these two movies. I made the Men in Orbit, which was a simulated Apollo documentary, but we just filmed it on LSD. It's kind of good, but we just filmed it on LSD. It's kind of good, but unbearable at the same time. Did you digitize it?

I don't know. It's on video now. Oh, you can get it? No, you can't get it. It's horrible. And then... What was the other Super 8 one? It was called Hell Is You,

where I interviewed James Chance. Oh, yeah? Yeah. Is he still around? Yeah. Yeah. Like he's dead? I don't know.

No, he's still alive. Does he still play? I don't know. Okay. Why is it so surprising to ask if someone's dead or not? I mean, Jesus Christ, look around. I know. It's really...

And there's got to be a better way. You know, you change the channels yeah and it says david bowie dies yeah this is not the way to find out that somebody you knew and cared about died it's just wrong or on twitter yeah i mean you know how do you want to find out you want somebody here's how i want to find out say like can you sit down for a minute here's how i want to find out because i'm 63 my brother's 61 yeah now it's happening more and more often. Right. I get a phone call from Evan. He says, John, I have some bad news.

I know what's coming next, but it gives me a moment to settle in, hope it's not somebody too close, but just to be ready for who died. Right. That's all I want. So they should have on CNN, they should have Evan come on and go, John, we have some bad news. And then David Bowie dies. You know, that's how it should go.

Or they, I mean, anybody but Don Lemon could say it. Right. Anderson Cooper could come on. We have some bad news. And let me get ready. Okay. Right. But that's a reasonable request. Isn't it?

Not from a television, but from people. But that's how you find me on Twitter. It's like I find out so many friends died from Twitter. It's just like... Yeah, it's... I don't like it. Well, get off Twitter. Oh, I hadn't thought of that.

I haven't been on that long. Yeah. So, all right. But when did you... How did you get involved with Jarmusch? When did... What was the first one? Mr...

Not Mr... No, the first one is. Stranger than Paradise. No, the first one I played on the street and did the score for Permanent Vacation. And they stored the equipment at my house. That was a Jarmusch movie? Yeah. Oh, yeah?

So you knew him when he was a kid. And you were a kid, basically. Well, he was going to film school. I met him during the Eric Mitchell movie. Yeah. Red Italy. But the most amazing thing about the movie Permanent Vacation was Jean-Michel Basquiat, the painter, used to sleep on my floor in the front room. And he had, if I'm jealous about anything, I'm a little jealous about you interviewing Obama. I'm more jealous of people who can sleep anywhere at any time.

And Jean-Michel could sleep anywhere. Yeah. And so he used to sleep on my rug in the front room, and they're storing the film there. Yeah. And he was so asleep that they could pick him up and move him from another place. Was he on drugs? No, he's just been out for a few days, and now he's sleeping. Yeah.

And they would move him. And you're jealous of that people can sleep anywhere what about his painting he's also a pretty beautiful painter he's a great painter no i'm not jealous of that i'm jealous of the sleeping yeah the sleeping yeah i can't sleep everywhere i used to have this drummer of dougie bound five two yeah he'd fall asleep on the plane he'd fall asleep on it and just in a a second, I get so pissed off, I'd wake him up. I couldn't stand it. I mean, I really hate it.

Jealous, jealous, jealous. I can only sleep on planes right before takeoff. For some reason, when they change the pressure in the cabin, I go out. And then as soon as the plane takes off, I'm up. And that's that. Oh, no. If I sleep, the plane will crash. Yeah.

Yes. That's usually what causes all crashes. Yes. The scared guy falls asleep. Yeah, that's right. I think that's true. All right, so you do permanent vacation, but when... Because I think the first time I saw you,

I thought you were like was in Stranger Than Paradise. Stranger Than Paradise. You just had a good presence on there, man. Yeah, good presence. Yeah, like you're kind of heavy. Heavy? Not fat, but like intense, man. You know, you're menacing. Really not fat but like intense man you're you know you're

menacing you really i don't sometimes sometimes but maybe just cranky cranky my acting style is curmudgeon curmudgeon from the curmudgeon school of acting yeah yeah yeah i mean jim had a little bit of we had a little bit of film left over from the vendor's state of things yeah and uh he didn't know what to do he was writing this thing that was just the garden of divorce which was this futuristic sci-fi yeah and it was terrible yeah and then he said well let's just do this and i pushed him pushed him pushed him yeah so we shot this little half hour movie and then he got you know two years later he got the rest of the money. Yeah. To finish it.

Yeah. It's a sweet movie. It changed everything somehow. Did it? A little bit. It was like this thing that like it was that generation of independent movies. Like it wasn't like, it sort of started something. See, I never quite understood that because the Cassavetes and Fassbenders and-

Yeah, yeah. But that wasn't for the kids. It wasn't for the kids. He got a whole generation of people going like, I'm going to make a movie. Yeah. You know, Fassbender and Cassavetes are like, I'm never going to make a movie like that. Oh, yeah. But, you know, Jarmusch made that movie like, I can make a movie.

It was something very sweet about it. Yeah. It was something charmed. Yeah. I mean, we were so lucky because it was like one guy got the flu, would have that would have been done i think louis just used the woman in it esther yeah who i think louis used her recently yeah i think he did yeah yeah yeah did she do a lot of acting after that no not so much yeah she plays violin too yeah yeah so all right so then the does would you consider that you had a movie career after that you were were kind of a New York kind of face.

Like, you know, you'd see you in movies. You gave it credibility somehow. Really? That's John Lurie, the New York guy. No, no. No, that and like a cameo. Because, I mean, I couldn't act. I mean, I had no...

I know, but you looked good. But I had no chops. I wasn't a legitimate... I mean, I was in a Lynch movie, a Vendors movie, a Scorsese movie. But I really just to kind of to do that. I thought you were good in Down Lynch movie, a Vendors movie, a Scorsese movie, but I really just to kind of do that. I thought you were good in Down by Law. I came and went. I was good for a while.

I'm in Benigni's. Well, yeah, yeah. But you were good. It seemed to fit you good. I did okay. Yeah, yeah. And then you did it. That's right.

You were in The Last Temptation. Yes, I was. I was St. James. I don't know why you're laughing. Just fuck. How dare you? I'm a serious actor. You motherfucker.

You know, let me tell you something. I saw it the first time. Like, shit, that John Lurie's got a beard. So the first day, me and Vic are. Didn't you have a beard or I'm making that up? No, I had a beard. Yeah, yeah. And a wig.

Yeah, yeah. But it was my beard yeah and you were in the desert we're in morocco yeah so the first scene is we're moving these fish me and vick argo and they're old stinky fucking fish yeah and vick is being very careful but i'm gonna be a good actor here i'm gonna get into moving my fish yeah Yeah. And they get all over my robe, my costume. Yeah. And then the costume, they don't, and the continuity people, they won't let them clean my robe. Uh-huh. Because they're not sure if it's going to screw, even though the story takes place over five years. Uh-huh.

They won't let them clean my robe. Right. And I've got all this fish stink on my robe. Yeah. So anytime I stand still anywhere flies come i'm like detracting flies everywhere i go that was not part of the possible james's story fuck acting james was not the attractor of flies in the bible was no the man of stink the man of stink where's that? I'll work on it.

The Man of Stink. Sounds more like a poem, though. Sure. Work on either one of them. I had Favino in here. Jimmy. Yeah. And he brought up this.

There was a controversy. Did you write the Conan O'Brien theme song? Not the one you hear. No? Were you going to say controversy? Yeah. I'll tell you how it happened. Not the one you hear.

No? Were you just going to say controversy? Yeah. I'll tell you how it happened. I had been through this horrible thing with this lawyer and assistant doing really bizarre things, like how I lost the fishing show, and I was really lost all my money. And the lawyer who I paid to help me out of some of this said, you know, they're going to make this new TV show. It's going to be like Letterman or something. And maybe you could be the band leader.

Yeah. I'm thinking like, if I play the music I want, they'll let me stay for a month and then fire me. And it will be great. Yeah. It'll be like when Jimi Hendrix opened for the Monkees or something. Yeah.

And I'm running off to the audition. And Conan had said that they wanted something that sounded like the Jetsons. Yeah. So I wrote this really tight harmon mute thing that sounded kind of like Thelonious Monk Jetsons kind of thing. Yeah.

And then Howard Shore calls me. He's the guy I was going to, he's a big deal. Yeah, Howard Shore. Yeah, he's a big music guy. And he's the one who's supposed to find somebody, and he wants me, and everybody wants me but Conan. I said, well, why? He said, well, Conan thinks you're funnier than him,

and that scares him. Well, okay. But I have good news. They're going to use our theme. Yeah. Our theme. Yes, I've taken what you wrote and changed it a little bit, and I'm thinking, like, who gave you the right to do that?

Who the fuck do you think you are? You know? Right. But I'm thinking also the money's going to be good. You know, it's okay. And then nothing. I don't hear anything. Yeah.

And Conan comes on the air and they're using it. But there's no credit for me. No credit for anybody, actually. And I don't know what to make of this. But I, because of what had happened to me. What happened? Well, I had this assistant and lawyer

who sold the fishing show and this concert film and all my money was stolen. I lost everything back like the year before that. So I was really skeptical. So after my audition with the Conan show,

I sent my audition tape to the library, you know, copyrighted it. Yeah. Which is nuts. Yeah. Who does that?

A guy who got fucked. A guy who got fucked, but it still was. I mean, I thought, as I put it in the mailbox, I was like, you're fucking nuts to be doing this. But, so now it's on. Yeah. And Howard, I said something about it in an interview somewhere, and they kind of misquoted me, and it was worse than it looked.

And then he wouldn't speak to me anymore. And so they're just playing this thing. So then we had this lawyer call, and they said, well, we don't really know this. I was like, we've copyrighted it. And I had him by the balls. Just had to wait long enough so it actually became the theme. And then I made, and I wrote it in like less than five minutes.

I mean, I was just, Stephen Bersey, I said, okay, let's, Stephen Bersey wrote it down really quickly and then we nailed it. And we, I liked the way we did it and I hate the way, I can't stand the way, I mean, I almost didn't want to. But yeah, so that's how it went. And who knows what Howard Shore's thing was? I mean, I'd love to talk to him about it. I'd love to actually, because I liked Howard and I'd like to kind of trust him on this.

But I got a lot of people afterwards calling me and saying, you know, Howard stole music from me too, but you don't know who to believe about anything. Sure. I mean, he's written some good stuff. How long did they use the theme? For all, until he was on the Tonight Show, and it was like, then he was even on the Tonight Show, and then until he got knocked off.

And then, you know, when he came back, they used something else. So a long time. A long time. I mean, he was paid my bill when I got sick. Yeah, he made the off. And then, you know, when he came back, they used something else. So a long time. A long time. I mean, he was paid my bill when I got sick. Yeah, he made good money. I had no money coming in. Ba-da. No, but I didn't write that part.

I just wrote ba-da-ba-ba-da-ba-do-boop-de-do-do-bop. Yeah. Yeah. Do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do. But on the harmon mute on the trumpet, it was sweet what we did. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I didn't write that. Ba-da, ba-da. I hate that. That's where sweet what we did. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I didn't write that. I hate that.

That's where you draw the line. Yeah, I draw the line. That. Sorry, man. Sorry. But that got you through. It's amazing about show business, isn't it? Here's the other way.

When you lock into something. The other way, I used to do a lot of voiceover stuff. And my agent was really stuck by me when I was really sick and I couldn't really function. And I was doing animal cops. But I was too sick to be doing them. I mean, I would say the Detroit Humane Society. And then after like a half an hour. Really? Yeah, because anything i would use would stop work

but i couldn't let them and i just imagine my obituary saying towards the end he managed to keep his job on animal cops and they fired me and he got me the job doing toyota Yeah. Toyota Corolla. Yeah. Now that's moving you forward. Except they hired me, but they wanted a high-pitched, friendly voice, which I couldn't understand why. Yeah.

And then they weren't going to use me anymore. Maybe I shouldn't tell this on the air because it might get him in trouble. You know what? I'm going to stop.

But I made more money for the five-minute Conan thing and not appearing on Toyota Corolla that I made doing anything else. That's an amazing thing that it carried you that long. I love the stories

about people making money in their sleep. You know, like the idea that you wrote this piece and it was protected and it, you know, paid off. You know, I did things to try to make money and then you lose all your money well how'd you lose all your fucking money several different ways what

just investing your own money in projects giving people money paying getting people out of jail paying for rehabs you know like you know things like that friends yeah well what what were friends until i was in trouble yeah you know and then um i don't know you mean when you got sick nobody came and helped you some people but oh let's not how do you know flea fleas a sweetheart yeah he's a great guy yeah i was out here doing, first I met him was, I was out here doing the music for a not very good movie. Uh-huh. And I wanted them to not hire everybody.

Uh-huh. And I wanted to write these funk things. For which movie? I don't remember the name of it. It was like a a motorcycle futuristic motorcycle movie you did a lot of you did quite a few movies so you did a bunch of movies mystery train down by law get shorty that's big yeah that's big you must have made a few bucks on that one fishing with john that's the excess baggage is that the one that's a good score yeah yeah it's

yeah that's a really good score. Yeah. What's that movie about? Oh, I don't know. It's Benicio Del Toro and Alicia Silverstone. Uh-huh. You work hard. You like doing that work?

I used to like it, but that was a bad experience, that one. Yeah. They don't care about the movie. Yeah. You do these Hollywood movies, nobody cares if it's any good or not. Right. They only care about who returns whose phone call. Right. And if it makes money.

Well, they don't even seem to care about that. They really only care about who returns whose phone call. Yeah. If you make the movie good, it might make money. Right. But, you know, it's like, well, there's a car horn at the end, you know, two minutes into, well, what does it sound like? Oh, we don't know.

Just write some music. It's like, no. You want to make a good, I mean, it takes a lot of work to make things good, and people have to care, you know? When you score a film, what do you do? You sit with the film? Well, you watch it once. Yeah, without any music. Well, sometimes they have temp music.

Right. And sometimes they don't. Yeah. And then you watch it on your own. I just leave a tape recorder going at the keyboard or with a guitar and just sort of play the first thing that comes to your mind and 80% of the time that works and then you kind of modify it. Oh, really? Yeah. It often works.

That's great. Yeah. So you meet Flea? Oh, I met Flea. Well, I was out here doing this movie score, and I wanted to... So I called Matt Dyke. You know Matt Dyke? From Delicious Vinyl? Is that what it was called? Maybe.

With Tone Loke. Uh-huh. You know, he was doing some stuff back then. Yeah. And Sir Mix-A-Lot, I think, was on that stuff. Yeah. I said, man, I need a really funky bass player. You got to get

this kid the flea get the flea yeah so i call this kid you know i had this stuff in five four and seven eight and could you do this he could do it you know and he comes in you know there's all these um all these outfits from the movie like leather jackets with like cups stapled to them and stuff and he like goes, oh, what's this? And he puts it on. He says, can I have this? I don't know. Just take it.

And he walked out onto Sunset Boulevard wearing it. And I was just like, I really was jealous. You know, it's like, how could you have the balls to walk out there wearing? So he was supposed to play on this thing. And then he showed up like hours late. You know, it was going to be him and Hillel and Cliff Martinez were going to play on the, and they showed up hours late. And the LA guy just kind of looked at me and was like,

see, I knew I shouldn't let you hire anybody. And that was it. That was the drugs, man. I guess. Back then. So you've gone in and out with that shit, with the drinking and stuff? I mean, that's a long arc of a story.

I mean, I was a junkie. Yeah. And then, you know, with freebanks. During the Lounge Wizards? During a lot of it. Yeah. And I quit, and then started again, and then quit, and then I drank, and then I quit, and then I did nothing forever. Yeah.

quit and then i drank and then i quit and then i did nothing forever yeah and then at some point i started drinking with this whole thing this horrible stuff that happened with and and i i'd gotten a little better with the lyme disease but i started drinking and i found that it quelled the nervousness i used to drink a bottle of vodka on the road every night and then come home yeah and not drink yeah and not even think about it yeah and that drinking got under my skin like that yeah it was shocked me so i took me a while to kind of share but you got you were strung out on the dope for a while yeah yeah that's i never did that shit i mean i'm clean you know but i never like i never took to the heroin i love the combination of heroin and cocaine at the same time. Yeah, yeah.

That was the thing, right? Yeah, yeah. Just to balance it out alchemically perfectly. And then if the coke ran longer than the heroin, then you were in hell. The heroin had to outlast the coke because your nerves just couldn't handle it. Yeah. So was it hard to kick that? No, I did it many times. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Cigarettes are harder. Yeah, cigarettes never go away. Cigarettes were harder. Yeah, they're just always there. I'm still addicted to, I mean, you just chew this stupid gum. I know. You call me dude again? Sorry.

Jesus. I'm sorry. I don't know what's a bad habit. I don't always do it. Do I look like a dude? No, but it's just like, I usually say know what's a bad habit. I don't always do it. Do I look like a dude to you? No, but it's just like I usually say buddy. Buddy's weird. I feel like I should sit on the same side of the table if you're going to call me buddy.

All right, well, John, how's John? Weird. Call me friendo. Hey, friendo, listen. So after all is said and done here, go through all this stuff this amazing career music film did you know that obama stuck gum under the table i did know that i just didn't tell anybody what a fucker yeah yeah don't take it are you saving it there because it's his that's where the dna is really nuts it's in the gum is it really gum under there i don't know just using

i don't know who i have a lot of people sat over? I don't know. I'm just teasing you. I don't know. A lot of people sat over there. I don't know who took gum out and stuck it under. Who's the last person to sit here? Oh, Cindy Crawford. Really? Yeah. I was on the plane with her once. Yeah. And I was shocked at, like, the presence

of her. Yeah. She was just... I just thought, you know know you see these people sometimes and they're nothing and but she was like cindy cropper whoa no not that she was even just as an entity yeah she just kind of like something radiate and then we got off the plane it was me and beshemi were traveling together and she got and they were like chasing her jeez i mean like they were wild animals that would look like hell to be her. The paparazzi. How long ago was that?

A while, because me and Steve were, you know, Steve was kind of even unknown. So, I mean, like 15. What were you doing with Steve? We were just on the flight together. We've been pals forever. Still pals? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's good.

He's a sweet man. I mean, yeah. So, that's good. You held on to him. Yeah. You guys still friends. He's a sweet man. I mean, yeah. So that's good. You held on to him. You guys are still friends. He's a sweetheart. Him and Flea are just sweet. Yeah, they are.

Some show business people, I got sick and they disappeared. Yeah. And then I was bitter for a while, and then I kind of felt sorry for them. Yeah. You seem pretty good. I thought you'd be cranky. You seem good. Well, I kind of geared myself to not be cranky when I got here.

What are you doing in L.A.? It's kind of a fiasco of a trip. I'm here to do this. Yeah. Because I've been thinking about doing this forever. Yeah. But I was supposed to have a show at the New Orleans Museum of Art. Yeah.

For the paintings. Yeah. We hardly talked about the paintings. We can talk about them i mean it seems like you paint one every day no they go on no that's so no i don't paint one every day on twitter i look at you it's like holy shit do you just finish another one no i cycle them out so i can kind of like you know how how much how many paintings are you churning out like three a month like four a month and what are you working with watercolor mostly watercolor now yeah i love

it and i'm completely... I love them. You do? I do. The only one you ever retweeted was the one making fun of Time Warner Gable. I'll retweet more if you want me to. All of them, yes. But here's what's amazing to you.

I'm pointing again. Yeah. Is that the persistence of your creativity. That after you move through all this stuff, whatever it is, acting, but mostly music and then scoring movies. And then you're just one of these guys that has a creative fever that you find yourself doing these almost peaceful. And you look at your paintings and you feel warmth. It's almost there's a childlike component. There's a primitivism thing.

There's almost like a native element to it and the colors are stunning and like i i'm happy for you that you paint i'm serious that was really sweet actually i mean i'm a big interrupter and i don't and i don't like being complimented so much but that real that was really nice i i enjoyed that actually yeah i just like because like i don't know what it is, whether I know a lot about you or not. For some reason, your presence in my mind has always been there, right?

So then when I started seeing you on Twitter and it was kind of mysterious, I didn't know where you were, what you were doing. Yeah, but that's by design. No, I know that. But we had a thing and whatever. But I've always been sort of fascinated with you and when i first started seeing the paintings i'm like oh my god this is what he's doing and this is like some of the best shit he's ever done yeah it is it actually the painting has gone past everything my soul

i mean when i thought i lost music I thought music was my only way I was gonna find my soul in this universe and but the painting has gone it's past it yeah it's really actually find some peace with it oh my god I just I mean I've been traveling for a minute and I haven't painted in a week and I'm like forget about cigarettes and heroin I got I want to get back to it it's just like I'm in it yeah just in it. Yeah, and you feel that. I must feel that. I'm like, I'm happy for you.

I'm serious. Thanks. And I don't even know you. I'm happy. I mean, there is a weird thing with you and me. We must have run in parallel lines. I don't know what it is. I know it.

There is. But I bet you and me would fight all the time. Eventually. No, quickly, I think. Really? Really, dude? Oh, yeah. Well, you're going to fuck with me. If you're going to fuck with me. No, you're gonna fuck with me if you're gonna fuck with me

oh you get you're in a good mood i i thought maybe if i fuck with you in a good mood call me dude my doctor calls me dude and i grab him by the lapels really do you grab your doctor by the lapel he's a small guy so you're doing three paintings a month. About. And you came, first of all, I interrupt you. What was this New Orleans thing that you were working on? Oh, we were supposed to have this show. It was my year. This was my 2016, this big show at the museum in New Orleans. Yeah.

And I was very excited. We were kind of planning everything around it. And then, so we were going to go now and choose. So I had three rooms and there was a fourth room going to be an archival room. And I was, these Bayou painters, you know about them? No. They're just beautiful. People don't know.

So I was supposed to pick stuff from their archives that was going to go in this fourth room. Oh, you're going to curate a little bit. Yeah, curate one room and then have my paintings in the other. Yeah, yeah. And then this guy, David Owen from San Francisco Sketch Fest, a really sweet guy. He's been bugging me forever to come there and screen fishing with John and do a question and answer. We've been saying, no, I've got Lyme disease. I can't do it again.

And so I thought, okay, what I'm going to do is I'll go. Because flying with the Lyme is still kind of hard. Yeah. You know, I had to come here. I had to rest the day before, rest the day after. Yeah. So I'll go to San Francisco, I had to rest the day before, rest the day after. So I go to San Francisco, come and do Marin, then I go to New Orleans, and then go back to my island. And then we buy the tickets, we sign the contract with San Francisco, and New Orleans pulled out.

And it just left, it just fell. Pulled out that quick, like that close, short notice. Well, no, because the thing wasn't scheduled until next, this coming summer. Right. But I had to go there in January to pick the archive room and I planned my year around it. Held back works from Milan. No, it's just like, and their reasoning was they didn't have the money. That they were only having shows that had corporate sponsorship.

And then you start to think about why all the stuff you see in these museums sucks. It's because it has to have corporate sponsorship. And then what kind of art has corporate sponsorship? I don't know. It's creepy. Yeah, I know. But it seems to me that the middle person, whoever was in charge of the museum, could have championed you to any corporation.

It's not like corporations are making decisions. That's true. But the guy who was championing us wasn't the top guy. No. And I don't know. Do I want, you know, who? Yeah, I don't know. Pepsi?

What? I don't know. Do you want that? Are you worried that a war contractor was going to... That's a museum. There's money. Money comes to the museum. It's not because Pepsi-Cola gave them money.

There's money for the museum to present great stuff. So don't present some plastic fucking dog that's worth $36 million for no reason. Sure, sure. People should be mad because art is important. It is important. I think. Sure, sure. People should be mad because art is important. It is important. I think. No, definitely. Like I said,

my girlfriend's an abstract painter. It's stunning. I can't even wrap my brain around where what you guys do comes from. To me, it's beautiful. And it's an amazing thing. But just the whole idea that what's showing in the museums

is only there because it's sponsored by something corporate. Yeah. That's. I don't know if that's always what happens. I don't know if it's always true, but it's just sort of, the whole thing's sort of scary because, you know, mostly what you look at is sucks.

Yeah. The new stuff or in general? Who are your guys, you know, in terms of the older guys, the painters? All through life, you mean? I mean, who do you like? I don't know. Pollock, Van Gogh, Bruegel, Sheila, Klimt. older guys the painters all through life you mean why do you like i know pollock van gogh broigel

sheila yeah clint but clint i didn't discover until late but i actually love him yeah um i can see that pollock yeah morris lewis boskiat well you knew him well i knew him i mean it's different yeah it's way different because he was just his kid you Yeah. I mean, I picked up some stuff from him. He picked up some stuff from me. We would just get high and make all the time. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's too weird. It's like some kid in your neighborhood who followed you around and then became a big deal.

It's like, are you influenced? That happened in New York. But then it's like, were you influenced by the kid who followed you around? It's like, damn. It's kind of hard. Sorry, yeah. Are you comfortable on the island? Yes.

You're having a nice time? I love it there. Good. I got goats in the yard. Really? Yeah. And mango trees and iguanas. And I can see the ocean from every room.

And it saved my health. Because when I got there, I was like, you know. Yeah. I swim every day, which I never thought was going to be possible again. And you got own place i rent a place yeah i didn't buy yeah uh-huh i love it there well good man i'm happy you're okay despite the problems no man this is like i came through the other side yeah i survived shit that i know and most people don't even know what I survived, but I know. And with her, too, she really stood by me. I mean, you know, I did a painting called The Other Side of the Great Wall of Fuck.

Yeah. And it's for real, you know. It's like, what I survived, it's like, you're a tough motherfucker. I'm proud of that. It feels good. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, you know, stay on the good side of it. You know, I was going to ask you if I could move in for a while. We'll talk about it off the mic. No, no, no. I'm Mike. I've got to talk. That's why when you come on, those guys are like, I'd like to help you, John. But where are we?

In Pasadena? Almost. Pasadena's over there. Glendale's over there. Eagle Rock's a little east of us. We're a little east of Mount Washington, Glasswood Park, Eagle Rock. I'm talking about places I never heard of.

We're east. You're an L.A. guy. I lived in Palm Springs for a while. We're far from Palm Springs. Well, I know, but I know east. Yeah. Palm Springs is east of here. It's east of here.

We're west of Palm Springs. It was a pleasure talking to you. I fun good i did too it wasn't a disaster right we're not gonna have to like no no no no i i am truly happy for you and i'm glad you came out through it and you know we talked about what we needed to talk about what you wanted to talk about we don't have to do any more war stories i just enjoyed seeing you you look really good though like better than any photographs. And I noticed on the recent photographs you look good. Well, maybe I think I relaxed a little bit. I'm a little more relaxed. Well, you got a lot

back from the world now. I mean, people love Mark Raron, and it actually makes a difference. After I did the thing in Milan, I got all this great press, and they treated me with respect. Oh, it's a relief, right? And it was just kind of like, and I saw it in the mirror. I thought, well, did I change a vitamin? Did I get more sleep? It was like, no and it was just kind of like and i saw it in the mirror i thought what did i change a vitamin did i get more sleep it was like no it was just like validation a little validation you know and but you can see it in your face makes a difference when you work your whole

fucking life at a bunch of different shit yeah and you know when the chips are down you don't know if shit's going to come back around and somehow it slowly starts coming around and you find something like not unlike you and, that you never anticipated ever doing. Yeah, I know. And it turns out to be the thing that works for you in your heart. And it also makes you appealing to others. And, you know, it's a good thing. Appealing to others.

Look, I know we're both men that have been the opposite of that. Yeah. It's like, I don't know both men that have been the opposite of that. Yeah. It's like, I don't know why I like that asshole. I just... But he's pushing his luck. Yeah. You ready to... Can we go?

No, let's keep talking forever. Okay. You're tired? No, I'm not. You're not? I'm not tired. Let's get out of here. I'm going to say something stupid if I haven't already.

All right, John. Thanks. Bye. All right. I think we covered a lot of stuff. Yeah, it was pretty lively in here, my friends. Pretty lively with John Lurie. Go check out his stuff.

You can go to WTFpod.com for all WTFpod stuff. Okay? We can play some guitar. Maybe. Boomer lives! With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means.

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