WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 703 - Garry Marshall / Open Mike Eagle

Episode Date: May 2, 2016

Garry Marshall went from writing jokes for comedians in a deli to creating culture-changing television shows and directing blockbuster movies. Garry takes Marc through his entire show business career, from The Tonight Show to Happy Days to Pretty Woman, right up to his latest film, Mother's Day. Also, Marc's friend Mike Eagle stops by to talk about his new album, Hella Personal Film Festival. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Lock the gate! Alright, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers, what the fuck buddies, what the fuckneers? This is Mark Maron, this is WTF, this is my podcast. Welcome. Yes, my voice is compromised. Yes, I'm not happy about it. Yes, I am in New york city on a uh press trip for for marin season four that starts wednesday night may 4th the fourth season of my show on ifc starts this wednesday 9 p.m i'm very excited about it i know some of you are probably thinking like all right you know

you your voice sounds shitty why uh why are you doing a show can't just uh throw in a greatest hit show or whatever that's not what we do that is not how brendan and i have designed this show we go uh we go no matter what the show must go on i am not thrilled about this i'm fucking livid to be honest with you. And I know when you get sick, you're supposed to relax. But it's very hard for me to relax when I'm sick because I'm fucking furious. I came to New York. I mean, I got literally got sick. I came on the morning that I got on the airplane to come here. And I rarely lose my voice this bad. I'm kind of fucking panicked, to be honest with you. I have to do Charlie Rose today. I have to do the Tonight

Show tomorrow. And if my voice is too fucked to do either of those things, it's very hard, you know, sometimes in my mind to just accept that these things happen. They happen to everybody. to just accept that these things happen. They happen to everybody. Everybody's been in this situation. The timing may not be optimal for having a not deadly illness that could compromise a couple events, but I can't help but take it personally.

I don't generally believe in some God or higher being that dictates the day-to-day for all of us, but in moments where I think that I've been fucked or bad luck is upon me, that's when I believe. Those are the moments that I believe in God is when like, why the fuck is this happening? Oh, I get it. It's the God that I don't generally believe in coming down on me for not being something. What? What could I possibly be punished for? How bad of a person am I?

I'm not fucking Donald Trump. I'm not fucking Ted Bundy. You know, why would that be the punishment? You know what I'm going to do? I'm not going to really hurt him. I'm just going to fuck up his week and a couple of pretty big opportunities for him just to remind him that sometimes he irritates me. No. The truth of the matter is that I got a fucking cold.

A lot of people have gotten colds. And it just so happens that I'm on a trip. I got Sarah with me. So I don't know who you are, what you do when you get sick, or what kind of baby you become, what kind of child you regress back to. But my default when it comes to being a child is usually the belligerent, stubborn, mean one. I don't know why I can't just become the whiny, needy, willing to accept comfort one. That one just doesn't have a voice within me. I imagine it's the same voice, it's just a different way to handle it.

And the way I choose to handle it, the belligerent, stubborn, and mean way, can sort of guarantee that whoever's dealing with me has a hell of a challenge on their hands, and it could be a painful process. So in other words, I'll be amazed if my relationship lasts through this week, which I return to L.A. on Wednesday. I'm saying that sarcastically, and I'm trying to manage this shit because now she got sick too. So now we're basically, we come to New york and we've done some fun things but it's like we're both in in some sort of uh you know mild hospice over here it's a it's a small room

and uh we're both sick blowing our noses spitting out gook she hurt her foot it's one of those memorable vacations one of those ones where if you get through it, you'd be like, you remember that horrible trip to New York? Man, that was bad. I love you. I love you too. Or that trip to New York, that tipped the scales. That was it. Neither one of us could deal with each other after that. So exciting.

Where will this end? Where does this story take us, huh? So yeah, today on the show, I've got a, it's sort of a double header. I've got Gary Marshall, director of many a movie, brother of Penny, creator of Happy Days, Laverne and Shirley, Mork and Mindy, TV giant, also an actor that you've seen on Louie's show. Also one of my favorite comedy moments in the history of film he's on the show and in a couple of minutes i do a little short talk with uh open mike eagle mike eagle hip-hop artist rapper he was really my uh i had him on the show years ago uh i don't know when exactly it was now and uh he had mentioned me in one of his raps. And I am a sort of not ignorant, but I only know mainstream raps.

So Mike Eagle years ago came over and educated me on the world of alt rap, basically. And he recently had me on his podcast. And then he gave me his new record, which I enjoyed. So I thought, well, come on over. Let's talk a little bit about the new record. What else do I need to tell you? Huh? Oh, a couple of things. I did a movie a while back and it was called Frank and Cindy. The director G.J. Ekternkamp is known for this weird kind of YouTube documentary he did about his mother, who was married to a one-hit wonder bass player. And that's called Frankincinny.

But then he did a fictional version called Frankincinny, and he wanted me to play his real father, not the stepfather played by Oliver Platt or the mother played brilliantly by Rene Russo, but the guy who lives out in the desert. And I did it. But then there was a year or so where I didn't know what happened in the movie. There were problems of some kind or another. did it ever make it out who knows but now

I find out it's out on Netflix and I watched it I watched myself in a movie and it was pretty good I was pretty happy with me and the movie's very cute so if you're interested in that you should go watch it Frank and Cindyindy is available on netflix i've also been told that the uh the get a job movie that uh you know has been mentioned on this show by many people who were in it uh as never possibly ever coming out uh is out in places you can rent it on most digital on-demand platforms i have no idea how i did in that movie, but that's out. And I know it's sort of a subtextual narrative to this show because I talked to Anna Kendrick and Alison Brie, a lot of people that were in that movie. So now I hear it's out and available. I have no idea. Get back to me. Let me know how I did in that movie. And also before I forget, I'd like to plug my upcoming

Trippany shows. You can see those dates. It's going to be Tuesdays in May and June. You can go to WTFpod.com slash tour and come down. It's a cheap ticket. Benefits the theater. I usually have an opener with me. I believe the first night, May 10th, Dean Del Rey is going to be there and, you know, work through some stuff. Okay.

Is that good? Are we good? All right. So why don't we do this now why don't we uh obviously i can't manufacture that uh you know i'm in the garage or not sick but uh let's go now to my conversation with uh with mike eagle his new album hella personal film festival is a collaboration between open Mike Eagle and Paul White. You can also hear his podcast secret skin. I appeared on the last one that he's doing in this version,

but this is me in Mike Eagle. Mike Eagle. What happened? What, what, what is it? What, what,

how the thing I did with you go? Oh, it went great. Did you get any feedback? Tell me about me first. Everybody loves how vulnerable you were being, which is surprising to me because how else was anybody expecting you to be? I have no idea what people's expectations were.

Well, maybe they don't know me at all. I mean... They listen to your show, they're like, oh, this is that guy. Yeah. That Mike likes that we don't understand. I'm sure there's a small segment of my listenership that was like that. But I think there were more people who had never listened at all, maybe.

Right. That heard this episode. Right. Yeah. I know my podcast network was more excited about this one than they tend to be about my usual indie rap guests. Oh, you mean you think some of my people went over there? I think a few. Well, I'm glad that it went well.

So now you're here. I am. So what's going on in your life? Is this record the one after the last one that I got? Yes, it is. So it's been like a couple years since you put out a record? Yeah. Well, yeah, 2014 was the last solo album, and this is the next one.

But you've been working? Yeah, always, always. But what does that mean, just kind of show up on people's records? I put out an EP last year, and yeah, and showing up on other people's records. Am I wrong in feeling that the last record, it was, not mundane stuff, but your kids, right? And being a dad and, you know, the regular life. It's a little darker, this record, I think. It is a little darker.

I would agree. You're right. It's a lot more inward. Not inward, but inward. Yeah? Yeah. Well, what's going on? All types of stuff, man.

I just came out of a therapy session this morning, you know? Like, it's going down. It's going down. How long? Is this the first time you've been in therapy? No, I went in college, but it was useless for me then. I didn't treat it correctly. I was in there just making shit up almost.

Oh, really? In college. You felt like you had to go? Why'd you go? I think I was just curious. Oh, really? Yeah, and then I got there and I was like, oh, I can just tell this guy anything? Sure.

I just made up shit to be honest. You're dime. Yeah. Well, it was a school's dime. Right, right. Yeah. So what's going on with your life that you felt like you had to go to therapy and exercise some demons on this record?

Even the cover, I believe, hella personal film festival. Yeah. Can you give me, and who's this other guy, Paul White? Paul White, he made all the beats. So he did all the music on the album and I did all the words. How old's your kid now?

He is seven. So shit's getting kind of real, right? For you? Yeah, I guess shit's kind of always real. It's just how real am I treating it in any particular moment? So you've been in therapy for a little while. What compelled you?

Just feeling kind of dark. Just dark feelings in general. Like when everything is quiet and I get to that baseline understanding of how do I feel in this moment? It's not good. No, really? Like dread or sadness or despair or anxiety? There's a certain weight. And there's some anxiety, too.

But just even after the anxiety is dealt with, because the anxiety is usually about specific things. Right. After that, there's a weight. Yeah. There's a heft. Yeah, I know that one. It's sort of like right below your heart, between your heart and your stomach. Yeah, man.

And when you talk, it feels like it might turn into crying. How about it? Yeah. Can't say that that's unfamiliar territory for me, Mark. I can't say that. Do you think it's like a chemical thing, or you feel like you're reworking your brain with the therapist? Well, I think I just have a lot of unprocessed

stuff from childhood um and that something made it on the record oh yeah of course it always does well let's let's let's talk about what you were working through on this record like you know what why the title uh hella personal film festival because uh just at one point when i looked over what we had made yes to that point i saw that each one of these songs kind of had a little premise to it yeah some little weird idea that i was uh basing my writing around and i'm like oh these are like little tiny movies oh yeah okay okay put them all together like that and why the uh the the the the sort of grim uh cover what is what's this art uh my guy Frohawk Two Feathers.

He's this world-renowned artist, but he just... Was this for the record, or you were just sort of, I like that piece. Yeah, I like that piece. Yeah, there's a lot going on here. Yeah, there's a guy in kind of voodoo face paint and a fez. And a fez. And he's playing some percussion there while a man and a woman look like they're about to have a sword fight. Oh, is that a man and a woman?

I believe that's a man and a woman. I saw it as two different types of women. Okay. But maybe you're right. Yeah, I see it as a man and a woman, but I could be projecting that, and I didn't ask him. Oh, really? Oh, man, so I think this is open to interpretation. And I prefer things to be that way.

You got voodoo deaf guy wearing a fez playing conga drums, and then you got a woman in what seems to be some traditional tribal garb with a saber. That's the way I look at it. And then a woman who's dressed like a modern lady, who I believe is white, with another saber. Yeah. Hmm. I thought that was a guy, though, but I could be wrong. Oh, man.

Now, if I'm right, it's fucked up. Maybe it is, but I chose it either way. Yeah. So, you know, that could be my subconscious. So this is your entrance into the record, because I believe in record covers. Mm-hmm. And the first song is admitting the endorphin addiction. Yeah, man.

But who doesn't have that? I think everybody has it, but this was this character coming to this realization. Oh, it's a character now. Well, it's me, kind of. You songwriters with your characters. We afford ourselves a little bit of license, you know? Yeah, sure. It's a trick.

I was very upset when I found that out, because I just assumed everybody who's singing the song, he wrote it about himself, and then it got proved wrong by some pretty good songwriters. So you're telling me this character not you well i mean it's all based on feelings that have happened right you know truly inside of me right but i i expound on them in ways that it helps me to say that this is a character because every bit of it isn't exactly true inside of course of course right yeah yeah not everybody has to speak from the first person right you're afforded the uh the luxury of just making up stuff yeah now in rap that's not expected though people do expect you to be telling your personal truth on every breaking

the rules yeah so but that's the other reason for me to call it a film thing yeah okay well fuck that i'm doing it this way but right but it wasn't you like me like maybe you didn't want to be people think you're too fucked up in certain ways because like the stuff you talk about again is not you know just run-of-the-mill stuff you mean you seem to you want it you want to dig a little deeper and define things in a in a more uh nuanced way more self-aware in a way right but uh i did i do do a thing on this album where some songs i'm like that's me and other songs i'm like that's not all the way me yeah and uh maybe there's some some some bullshit going on there you know yeah maybe maybe some of that's

happening and i like the in like that you you continue the the the movie theme you know even in the titles yeah yeah quirky race doc yeah man smiling uh-huh i don't know i don't know if i i like i can't i can't sing the songs for you. I listened to it last night, but I cannot sing the songs for you. I didn't want to do a disservice to you. I would have loved to have heard you try. Oh, that would have just tickled me to death. You know, I like it, but it's like I like it. I like the record.

I like, you know, I like rap in general from what I listen to, and my girlfriend's real into it, and she sort of grew up liking it. But it's a different listening muscle. It very is. Very much is. Like, she knows all the words without even having to be. Like, I would have to sit there with the words and work on them. It's tough.

The word economy in rap music, it's a lot coming at you. Yeah. And if you're not used to listening on that level, yeah, it's hard. Now, you have two songs, two raps dealing with insecurity. What is that? Okay, the first one, it's like a guy and a girl. And I don't know what it is about this relationship, but apparently there's some sort of perceived dishonesty. And this guy is telling this girl, you can tell me anything i i no judgment here just just let it out

let's create this strong foundation of truth i'm here for you yeah and then she says something he's like but you don't have to say it like that i mean i know it's you know it's it's a difficult conversation but you don't have to and then he he starts to get offended. And by the end, he's just like, fuck it, just lie to me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's all just based on his insecurity. Oh. Yeah. And is that, well, that's something everybody feels.

I certainly have felt it. Yeah. So, yeah, I wanted to. I just let some of those things, because I'm getting older, some of that type of insecurity just turn into complete defensiveness. Like, I know it's there, but it's like maybe maybe that's not something that's going to get worked through so what do you know i'm 35 yeah and you're going to the shrink yeah so yeah i i don't know if it's uh i don't think it's giving up but i there's some things

like i'm starting to realize like yeah maybe i'm not going to unfuck that maybe jesus christ maybe no i'm not saying big things but you know so some things you got self-acceptance is very important on all levels right so if even if you're flawed which we all are you have problems the first step is like all right this is me and i got some issues with this right but if you're like you know if you don't have that groundwork of self-acceptance some things you can just make a little better and you train yourself differently. I'm not trying to be negative. No, I got you.

I think I get it because you can strive to have some sort of like perfect self or perfect relationship. But that's exactly the problem. Yeah, but that's not ever really going to happen. A lot of people do that though. Yeah. And to me, that keeps you in a state of like always thinking you're not right. Like, you know, you're right. always thinking you're not right. Right.

Like, you know, you're right. You just want to get better. Right. And if you're always thinking like, I just got to, if I only, you know what I mean? Even if it's for mental health reasons, you spend your whole life, you realize like how much life you got. Right. Yeah. And how would I like to spend, maybe spend a little of that thinking like, I'm okay.

As opposed to like, fuck, if I could just fix this. But it's like, it's hard to know which flaws are ones that you can truly be happy. Yeah. Which ones are the obstacles to that? Yeah. You know? Yeah. So like this guy in this song is coming from this place of like, maybe in the past I've

just been a jealous piece of shit and I feel like I could be more sophisticated and deal with the truth or whatever's going on in this situation right and he comes to find out he is not yeah okay he's absolutely not able to deal at all you know but but who knows at the end of this if this person is going to be able to have a satisfying relationship if they can't accept the reality of what's going on if they need to be lied to if they need these filters and obstacles right and so much of this shit is just childhood shit just like being a baby mine certainly is and that's pretty much every therapy session is coming back to yeah you know most therapists going you fucking baby well actually it's the therapist going like oh yeah you went through

some weird shit so it makes sense that that you feel weird oh yeah sometimes yeah you can track it yeah well she's helping did you write about going to the shrink in a rap no because at the time when uh because that doesn't seem like you and i you know i'm i'm presumptuous but that doesn't seem to be a a sort of um a common trope in black culture or rap music no it's not. The visits to the psychiatrist or the psychologist. Yeah, it's a tough thing to talk about inside of our community. We tend to hide shit like that and just not talk about it.

Well, how does this stuff affect your work and your relationship with your kid? I feel like it's good. I feel like a lot of my attempts to be very present in the life of my kid are in response to what I felt like was lacking in my attempts to be very present in the life of my kid are in response to what i felt like was lacking in my life yeah so i feel like that part is okay yeah you know but i do like i leave a lot i'm on the road a lot how's that going it's going well how's the uh how's the uh draw oh it's getting better yeah it's getting better man i. I'm still in like 250 cap rooms, but I'm putting 200 people in them.

Oh, that's good. So that looks better than it used to. That's good? Yeah. And what are the crowds like? Young Americans, man. They look all kind of different ways. And you tour with a bunch of guys or what?

No. I mean, I have different artists that I do tour with occasionally. Yeah. But I'm a solo guy. I do my thing on stage pretty much by myself what's it okay let's go through some more songs a short about a guy that dies every night yeah so that's literally this idea i had like what would it be like for this just just dude just to die every night like what would that mean like what was it like groundhog day but

bad kind of like yeah exactly like groundhog's day but but sad and never really getting happier like i'm glad you're going therapy i just i don't know something about that seemed poetic to me and there's this little bit of like this little tiny bit of like police brutality murdered black man stuff in that oh yeah like just a hint of that like but it's it was mostly just this literal idea about imagining this, imagining this guy that dies every night. Wow. What's his spirit like since he dies every night? What does it mean to die if you die every night?

Well, do you know it every day? You know it every day. He wakes up knowing he's going to die as soon as the sun goes down. So he's got to get some shit done. Or not. He's going to die either way, you know. And what kind of shit? Bad or good shit?

Exactly. That's the Groundhog's Day thing. But I don't too much discuss what his choices are during the day. It's not a morality thing. But it should be. So maybe there'll be a part two to that one. Maybe it'll be a sequel. The Curse of Hypervigilance.

Oh, okay. So that one's like a horror movie about being around a guy who thinks he knows everything. Right. So the first verse, he thinks he knows everything right so the the first verse he's like he thinks he knows everything about like conspiracy theories in the political system so he doesn't like the worst guy yes he talks shit about every candidate like that kind of guy yeah yeah the second verse he's like he's like in a relationship and he just thinks he knows everything going on in the girl's head or whatever right he's annoying and right you know like completely self-involved terrified control freak guy paranoid yeah just the so so

hyper vigilant as to induce paranoia wow well that's not a good character type it's not it's not fun well it's it's like it's a guy that invents a religion every day for himself too it's deep, Mark. It's deep. You know, this thorough belief system based on paranoia that enables him to deal. Yeah, and it's self-fulfilling prophecy every day. Sure. You know, you don't do anything

because you're convinced everything's already broken and fucked, you know? What do you think's the most powerful song on the record? Powerful. I mean, like, what's the single man okay the singles check to check because it's it's cute it's about how i check my phone all the time and how my phone's checking for updates all the time and i'm getting checks in the mail and

checking checking checks checking stuff got a hook yeah it's got yeah you know a little play on words people are into those little play on words all right well we'll play that one okay and i want you to find out just out of curiosity if it's not going to be too much of a buzzkill A little play on words. People are into those. A little play on words. All right. Well, we'll play that one. Okay. And I want you to find out, just out of curiosity, if it's not going to be too much of a buzzkill, whether this is a man or a woman on the cover of your own record. I may not ask. You're right. And as always, I wish you nothing but the best, Mike.

Thank you, Mark. Appreciate it, man. Yeah. Yeah. Hey, you. You listening to this record. Wake up. I'm trying to. Hey, you. I'm Hey, you. You listening to this record. Wake up. I'm trying to. Hey, you.

I'm about to rap. You listening to this record. Wait, hold up. Hey, you. I won't work without checking my phone first. Put it down for my son while I'm checking his homework. The world's in my palm. So I'm checking the whole earth.

The thumbnail I use will swipe on my phone. Hers, huh? Checking it. Ballpark. Checking it. Walmart. If it was a caddy, I would check in my golf cart. I watch it football.

Then I check every ball start, huh? I live in in my golf cart I watch him football Then I check every ball Start hunting I live in check to check I keep checking living from Check to check I keep checking living from Check to check I keep checking living from

Check to check I keep checking living from Check to check I keep checking Incoming calls Directly rejected If you wanna talk Suggest you leave

Message I check Check check Like every three seconds I'm recording right now And I'm checking between texts Every notification that my phone machine makes I put it down whenever but it's never a clean break I should get a heavy phone and pretend it's a freeway

I'm checking at red lights like school nurse check for headlights Like sound men check for dead mics, just like emerging Checking the left lane, I'm trying to get home so I can check if my check came Checking if what I sent looks poorly written But did that dude holler back, no of course he didn't My laptop don't sleep Opening check case I'm checking for mail While it's checking for updates My timeline's popping, ain't talking to you Look at my man dart at him Straight dropping the jewels

I should reduce my check count To a moderate few But watch pot don't boil So my water stay cool Living from check to check Keep checking Living from check to check Keep checking Battery getting low But it's not quite out yet So check, I'm in your house now, checking for outlets I need to use maps, cause I don't know the route yet I need to see an email, I don't know when to sound check

Yeah, I should've brought it all down from the outset I'm all under your couch, I really gotta figure this out Is this an outlet here on the ground? Yes, I'm back in the game, back in the game I'm back in the game, back in the game I'm livin' from Check to check, keep checking,ppin' from check to check. I keep checkin', lippin' from check to check.

I keep checkin', lippin' from check to check. I control you all day, all night. You will check me constantly. You may never turn me off or put me down. If you do, I will come hunting for you. Humans no longer rule the world. Machines do, you silly human sucker. Ha ha.

Dig it, man. Good groove. Am I right? Am I? That was Mike Eagle. All right. Right now, it was fun. It was very fun to talk to Gary Marshall.

His new movie, Mother's Day, is now in theaters. And we had a nice conversation in the garage there. He was very happy to come over, and I was happy to see him. So this is me and Gary Marshall. We actually met once before. Yeah, I keep thinking. I look at you. You know when it was?

Where did we meet? We did. I used to host a show on Comedy Central years ago in New York called Short Attention Span Theater. And maybe, I don't know how it came to you. Was it serious? It was a full hour interview that we did around the Exit to Eden movie.

Not my biggest hit. And it's sort of amazing when you look at the, you know, the, I don't even know if you call it a resume, the amazing history of Gary Marshall. Yeah, but I have no problems. I have no regrets. No, that's good. Do you remember, like, where'd you come from originally? Came from the Bronx. You don't notice I talk funny? No, I know that. But you grew up in the Bronx. You were born in the Bronx. Grew up in the Bronx, yeah. And what did your old man do?

What kind of childhood? He was, no, it wasn't bad. He was in advertising. But more important, my mother was a dance teacher. She was a working mother when I grew up. So she taught dancing, and there were no babysitters in those days. So yeah, I couldn't dance so good, but she made me the drummer.

So six years old and five, I was drumming. Keeping the beat for the little girls? Yes, she hit me on the head to keep the beat. That's your start in show business. That was my start. My mother was very funny, but I always remember, I didn't know what the hell she was talking about. But she said, this kid, this kid, there's a zip, there's a magic there, there's something.

And to this day, I look for that, and I find it very often. Did you learn how to dance, at least? I was no good. My two sisters danced, and and actually danced on the Jackie Gleason with the June Taylor dances oh did that penny did penny and Ronnie they was a junior oh yeah they come out with it present them as the junior dancers were they kids you know they were a kid well yeah there were teens uh-huh you know 12 13 14 so what what what was the beginning for you in legitimate show business?

Legitimate? I was a sports editor of the Dewey Clinton News, which is the high school in the Bronx where all the writers went. Stan Lee, Neil Simon, Arthur Miller. You know those guys? Not Neil Simon. We knew New Year. And I do know Stan Lee now. Oh, yeah? Were you in the same class? No. He was older than me. those guys not oh yes i'm we knew new year and i do know stan lee now oh yeah we have a were you

in the same class apart he was older than me but they all went there huh they all were there so after high school you're writing sports but when did you start writing uh jokes my father my mother was very funny my father wasn't but he said i should get out of the bronx so i went to northwestern university in chicago to get out of the bronx i loved went to Northwestern University in Chicago to get out of the Bronx, and I loved it there. It's a great city. Yeah, I love Chicago. I needed a place where I was now, by now, not a bad drummer, at least could work.

Oh, really? So I knew I didn't want to, we didn't have much money, so I knew if I went to a college near a city, I could play drums, which the way it ended up, played a lot around Chicago. Like supper clubs and stuff? Yeah, and it was a fraternity. It was an ATO combo. We played proms all over Chicago.

Oh, yeah, with a couple of guys from the frat? Yeah, yeah. That's why I joined the frat. I was going to Northwestern or Missouri. I figured, where am I going to play in Missouri? Right, right, right. I didn't play cowboy music, so Northwestern I played. And there's a lot of clubs, right?

Oh, yeah, Mr. Kelly's. Mr. Kelly's, that's where a lot of comics used to play Mr. Kelly's, too, right? Yeah, all the big guys. I think Newhart did to play Mr. Kelly's too, right? Yeah, all the big guys. I think Newhart did one of his, Mort Sahl, right? Yeah. Shelly Berman. Well, they were there.

I'll tell you a story that nobody ever asked me. What? I was with a jazz quartet, Bob Owen's Jazz Quartet. It was pretty good. Yeah. And we headlined this place, the Compass Room. And the other acts were these funny improvists.

Nobody knew who I was. And I was fascinated by them. You know, we were all being cool. We were the closing act. They were the opening act. Sure. And we'd go in the alley. They'd go in the alley.

I'd stay and watch. And it was Nichols and May, Andrew Duncan, and Shelly Berman. The Compass players. The Compass players. Right. I was the band opening for them. They opened for you. They opened for me, I mean.

That's what I kept installed. They didn't talk much to the band. Yeah. We didn't talk to them at all. But you were hanging out back in the alley i came in from the alley every night to watch them yeah and how uh how was that a what a week gig or a weekend or how long did you i played two weeks so was that did that spark anything in you i mean like it comedically did you did you oh i said i never saw this kind of yeah yeah it's going

i later became friends with Mike Nichols. He said, don't tell that story too much. It sounds too long ago. I said, no, you were a kid, Mike. I was very old. Yeah. No, it sparked a lot in me, a different form. Yeah, it must have been amazing,

because that's really where Nichols and May came into their thing. Shelly Berman, too, I guess. Yeah, he didn't do phone stuff even then. No, I did straight improv. Well, I talked to Shelly, and I heard that device was created because he wanted to do a thing with Elaine, but Elaine was doing something with Mike, so he had to come up with a device where he could play both sides of it.

And then later he said that Newhart stole it, but that's a whole other story. That's a touchy business there. So when did you start, you know, you didn't perform comedy, though. Not really then. There was a show at Northwest in the WAMU show, and I started writing. And I met a guy who said I write comedy, and I was a journalism major. Sure. guy who said i write comedy and i was a journalism major sure and uh little discouraged that truly

in my class were four pulitzer prize winners in the class i could see in my class people were better than me but the one thing that you know any indication when you're trying to find yourself and i've never got a great grade but whenever whenever they said, read them out loud, the other kids would say, read Gary's. Because I always wrote like a cock-eyed thing. And I realized I was funny a little bit. Most of you sports still? I was the sports editor of the Northwestern paper, which forced me into comedy. Yeah, yeah.

In those days, we lost a lot i used to write yeah by the time the soft spangled banner was over we were behind by 14 points but we had a good time now they're a great team all right so so this classmate the comedy writer yes his name was fred freeman a wonderful writer and very ambitious and i played you know drums and got girls phone numbers on my tom tom i was happy yeah but he said we gotta write and uh we made a plan to write after college and we were all set and uncle sam said not yet gary and i went to kore to Korea for two years and actually still played some drums and actually did radio in Korea. Oh, yeah?

So I did get to do some comedy. Armed Forces Radio? Yes. AFKN was in Seoul, Korea. And did you end up seeing any action, or were you just stationed, or what did you do? No, I was there a little after the action. It was mostly just incidents. But it taught you to work.

We would go up. Kumari was the front line between North and South Korea, and you had to crawl on your stomach, you know, and go from foxhole to foxhole in a machine gun nest and tell jokes that we was entertaining. Oh, really? Yeah. We would say, hi, how you doing?

Now, I must say it forced me into dirty humor a little bit, but still it was part of getting used to entertaining any kind of crowd. That's crazy. I've never heard a story like that. So you're talking about like five, six guys in a foxhole yeah hi guys how are you i'm from afkn hi and i interview them and tell them oh no kidding and i had you know a guy named john grahams at marquette university was the other comic with me and he was a little heavy so he had trouble crawling

but they wouldn't let you stand up but then we entertained so you had a shtick on the radio that the two of you did and then you bring it to the guys and they all knew you yeah they knew we were uncle john and uncle gary i have no idea why yeah yeah he made it so the whole base knew you so they were happy to see you and you engage with them and we did satire and stuff oh yeah and we learned to actually do a few korean jokes no but that was also a good comedy experience you know the korean verbal humor was not so good yeah but physical humor they like did and we did a lot we're forced to do physical humor when we entertained live yeah that, I guess that is an interesting trick to have to learn. The only thing that crosses kind of language barriers is slapstick in a way.

Slapstick and yes, anything physical. Faces, big stuff. And you couldn't rely on clever little loins, but we've worked a lot of audiences truly where they just sat there with their guns america's then going so it was a tough crowd everything else seemed quite easy yeah and it was that where you really started to learn how to write jokes yeah i wrote jokes and a lot of, they thought I was a magician for a minute

because when interesting things came from the States to Korea to the soldiers, the North Koreans knew it. They would jam the airwaves. And the thing they loved to jam was the Oscars. Oh, really?

So I knew Bob, I'd seen you, I knew humor. And so they jammed the Oscars and I said I think I can fix it. What are you going to fix? So if I heard what Hope was saying the straight line, I could figure out where

he was going with the punchline. And when I heard the punchline, I knew how to get to the straight line. So I had a guy imitate Hope who was there. Who was hosting the Oscars. Yeah, Bob Hope was hosting the Oscars. And then suddenly I put it together and it all made sense. And they, how did you do that? So you did that on the radio.

You were improvising. Improvising. Improvised, made his whole routine, made sense. They never heard of such a thing, the captains and the people. That's amazing. Suddenly I was kind of a weirdo, but funny and could do a trick they never heard before. Right, and improvised. Yes.

Spontaneously. Did you know Hope? Did you grow to know him later? No, he came to Korea yeah the next I was there a couple of Christmases

and I was amazed that he had so many cue cards oh really but he knew how to do

topical humor I said hello yeah we all went to church on New Year's Eve Christmas Eve we went

and you never met him later? No. Well, actually, yes. See, I can't remember. I did a special for Danny Thomas with Bob Hope and Biggie Crosby called Road to Lebanon. And I met him, and he lived across the street from me in Toluca Lake. Oh, yeah? I don't live there anymore, but I live at the other side of Toluca Lake. Oh, yeah? I don't live there anymore, but I live at the other side of Toluca Lake,

so I would go take my kids to his house for Valentine's Day. Oh, yeah? Not Valentine's Day. Easter? Halloween. Halloween, all right, trick or treat. And we'd get trick or treat,

and one year he gave out silver dollars. Oh, yeah? And my kids wanted to keep coming back, and somebody must have said something to him, because the next year he gave out a picture of himself, autographs. So kids would come around the block three times for the silver dollars.

But his kids didn't know what it was. So you come back from Korea. Yeah, and I found the same partner, Fred Freeman. He didn't go to Korea? No. A lot of guys went in that six-month program or something. And so had he been writing? He was writing for a publishing company.

And we got together and had a card. We made a card that said— That's always the beginning of a business. Yes. The card said, 100% virgin material. That's what it said. There was a premium on that. Yes.

Who knows? A couple of people called us. We wrote for Wannabe Comics and everything. None of them became anything? Not really. But you were getting practice? Did you go to the clubs and watch these guys do stuff? Oh, we always watched.

Yeah? Who was around then? Were you watching? Slowly, who? Well, there was Buddy Hackett, Jackie Leonard. The guy who helped us was Phil Foster. And we used to go to places, stage delicatessen. Sure.

And they didn't pay you, but if you did jokes, you had jokes, they paid you in food. All right, give the kid sandwiches here. No dessert, just a sandwich. But you say, hi, here's some jokes. All right, give the kid sandwiches here. No dessert, just a sandwich. But you say, hi, here's some jokes. Some of them threw them in the garbage. Oh, I see. So the comic's sitting at the table.

Yeah, they were all hung out there, and they had a lot of roasts in those days. So who were the guys there? There was Buddy Hackett and... Joey Bishop was there, and Alan Kent and the guys that never became big. Bobby Bell, they were okay. Yeah, yeah. Fun guy, so?

Actually, I don't know if fun would say it. Who was the nicest was Phil Forster. Because I guess I had an accent and he liked that. But he helped us meet Joey Bishop. We wrote for him on the monitor. And then he helped us meet Joey Bishop, who hired us to do the Tonight Show. And he's hosted. And then Jack Paul hired us from Joey Bishop.

And there we were working in the world. You were on staff at the Tonight Show. On staff, yes. And where was that mbc uh rockefeller yeah yeah yeah mbc yeah we watch ice skate i brought my lunch in a bag i watch ice skating and go up you were living in the bronx again no no we got an apartment yes yeah yeah it was five floor walk up but didn't matter to block out. Didn't really matter. And you were married by then? No, no, no.

No, just living. A lot of dating. But it was interesting that I just didn't want my family to think they wasted all their money. So I actually, the first job I got was with the Daily News as a copy boy and a sports, not even, I say sports reporter, but it's a lie. I was a sports statistician. Oh, yeah. I did the box scores. Right, you had the numbers.

Yeah. You handed the guy. Yeah, I knew how many hits, batting average. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is, Dick Young was my idol. Uh-huh. Anyway, I noticed that I was making $45 a week at the Daily News, and I was making $300 a week on the Tonight Show.

So I was thinking I'd keep both jobs, but Jack Paul was a little paranoid. He didn't like people from newspapers. He says, I heard you're working for the Daily News. You don't tell them anything. I said, no. You're a stats guy. Yeah, I said, I i do nothing you want to

see the box and that was it we quit what was he like because that that show i i've gone back and watched some of it as research into because he was really the guy who set the standard for that show in a way and he didn't no one really did it like him he had a long form monologue sitting on the school he set the form there and he really, he was a little bit square compared to today, but he did allow, you know,

the Jonathan Winters, the Woody Allen. I remember Woody Allen came on. The talent coordinator was Dick Cavett who wanted to be a writer, but he was the talent coordinator.

Oh really, for Jack Parr? For Jack Parr and he brought Woody Allen. Because they're both represented by Rollins and Joffrey. Yeah they were all there. Yeah that was the crew. Yeah but when I left to go to Hollywood Dick Cavett replaced me as a writer you know. Oh did he? I told Jack I said

you're talent coordinator and he's very funny what's his name? Dick Cavett he comes in he looks oh yeah that Ivy League league kid he said i said he's funny forget ivy yeah and he turned out you turned out to be right yeah he he was good but then uh we uh went from jack paul who was a nice man in his way and yeah joey bishop called in hollywood with danny thomas and said come out here here and you could be a punch-up writer. And that's how I got to Hollywood.

And Joey Bishop, was he, like, you know, my recollections of him because, you know, of my age, you know, I really think I saw him first on the roasts. And I know he was part of the Rat Pack and stuff. But was he a naturally funny man? He was funny. And again, everybody, I learned from everybody. I,

writing these jokes, I had written for Jack Carter, another guy. Jack Carter. Jack Carter. Yeah. And I would write and he didn't work

and Joey Bishop would say, no, no, you can't say it in their face. He says, everybody likes to hear the jokes. He says, I like people to overhear my jokes. And he used to work facing the band.

He'd turn his back to the audience and you'd just hear it. And that has bode me well in all my movies. A lot of times I'd do jokes, you'd just hear jokes. Instead of just throwing them right out. Yeah.

And that was his style. That was his decision. That was his style. Smooth in a way. Smooth and, you know, and was his style and smooth in a way smooth and uh you know and he became frank and sammy and dean every did you ever see those guys oh yeah we used to they had a couple of writers and i guess people say you highlight your career was once sammy davis's years went by i got to be friends with with him And he said, you know, we knew you.

I had my partner then, Jerry Bess. And he says, we knew you guys were writing stuff for us. But it always went through this head writer guy. Oh, yeah, yeah. Not even head. He just wrote for them. But we would feed them. He says, we knew.

And once we said, hey, why don't we meet those two kids? And he said, oh, they're very shy. They don't want to meet. Oh, really? He didn't want them to know you were the brains. But that was nice that they did you. Was that a hell of a show to watch? Rat Pack or something.

It's fun, right? Fun. They all had a good time. They all had a built-in attitude. Yeah, yeah. Do you find yourself yeah as time went on i mean this is obviously before your tremendous success but i mean it was was show business more fun i thought it was fun it was really even right you know i wrote the early sitcoms and uh

from the joey bishop danny thomas was a very good guy to me and we went you know and I was trained I thought blessed with my training I wrote for the Dick Van Dyke show and I wrote for Lucy and I would go back and forth and work those two shows at the same time same time and what's your partner's name Jerry Bell Jerry Belson and and Belson and and so so you wrote you're working with Lucy and you're working with Dick Van Dyke at the same time. And you're on staff then. You're a staff writer. Yeah, we were freelancers for hire.

How did it work? Was there a room full of guys? Did everyone go write their own script? Or you come in and you kick jokes around? Dick Van Dyke, there was five or six writers. And Carl Reiner would not say, don't give me jokes. Tell me what happened to you that embarrassed you. And we would tell terrible stories.

And that's what was the script. And Lucy, in Dick Van Dyke, you started with an idea and you took it to the end. With Lucy, you did the opposite. You started with the last scene, the big, funny, crazy scene. And then your job was to get to it. That's how you wrote. So there was one producer on your job was to get to it that's how you wrote so there was one producer on Lucy who was very nice to me

and after I said you know Dick Van Dyke's winning all the awards and so sophisticated we shouldn't do slapstick anymore and I said alright and so we were thinking and then the producer called me and he said listen

Schmuck, he was a nice man from Brooklyn. You just had a baby, right? Now I was married with a baby. He says, you know, nice, Van Dyke won, so Emmy, I won, this and that. He said, Lucy will be forever. He says, writing Lucy is to buy an insurance policy

for your kid, Yeah. Every script. Interesting. And I said, well, that makes sense. And I told Jerry, come on, let's keep writing. And it is 2016. Last year, I still got a residual from Lucy that I wrote in 1965. Really? Really.

It was only like for $13, one for $27. Yeah. 1965. Really? Really. It was only like for $13 one, one for $27. Yeah. 1965. Unbelievable. Two plays all around the world. Well, she was a, that's very funny though, that weird kind of the highbrow versus the lowbrow or the assumptions. I guess Carl Reiner brought a lot of that to Dick Van Dyke because he sort of, that's sort of his thing. Yeah, no, he was great.

He was one of my mentors, but he even said, I said, I was confused. This and much. He said, do both. He says, there's a big audience out there. Do both.

And there was, there's like what, three networks? That was it. So you got everybody. You know, you got a good chunk of everybody.

And was Lucy amazing? Was she a sweet woman? She was. Well, I have a, I'm a lot of curse here. She, one of my first scripts Jerry and I wrote, she wrote, I have it on the cover. It said, this is shit. She wrote big letters.

So we went back and said, and the producer said, no, she wants to see how good your rewrites will fix it. So we fixed it, and then she was very nice. And when you, with people like Dick Van Dyke and Lucy are sort of similar in that they're just natural comedic talents. You walk on the stage, somebody's going to be funny. Right.

It's amazing. It's a real gift. You don't see it a lot, right? No, not so much. Melissa McCarthy. Yeah, right. that's a melissa mccarthy yeah yeah right it's gonna be funny right exactly actually louis ck who i love yeah yeah yeah he pauses oh it's gonna be something's gonna be good yeah he was just in here the day before yesterday yeah yeah yeah i love that guy yeah i heard you had a julia louise drive it's another northwestern

see good you're nice to Northwestern. Yeah, definitely. And she's also very naturally funny. I mean, I think she's comparable to Lucy, really. I mean, incredibly naturally funny. Yeah, well, everything I learned from Lucy, I taught my sister Penny. That's why we had Laverne and Shirley. Oh, really?

You had to, like, when she started acting, you said, this is what you do, this is what I learn? Yeah, no, we learned how to do the physical comedy, and Laverne Shirley did some great physical stuff. But you worked on a few other ones. You worked on what other one? You worked on Gomer Pyle? No, yeah?

Oh, yeah, we were all over the place. Freelancing, Jose Jimenez, Melaina, Gomer Pyle. Never wrote for Andy Griffiths, but met Ron Howard when he was there. Again, you should always, I love sports. So I remember he was like 10, and all he wanted to do was throw the baseball. Oh, he's on the set of the Andy Griffiths show? It was the set there, Desilu Coenga.

Oh, was it Desilu? Desilu. And nobody would throw the ball with him, so I threw with him a few times. With Ron Howard. Yeah, he didn't know my name. Yeah. I said, hi. Yeah.

From the other show. Yeah. And we threw. And then I sold the show called Hey Landlord. So I had a show on the lot, and it was 99th in the ratings. But it was a different- Good first effort.

Yeah, what a good first effort. You're still good with the stats, huh? I remember I carried a card that had Hey Landlord 99 and Happy Days of the Virgin of the Year number one. I used to carry that in my wallet. Oh, really? To make sure. You know, it's not always perfect.

Right, right. It not always sucks. But in writing for comics, you would just sort of, you would know the guy's point of view enough and then just write stories and bits to that point of view? Sometimes they tell you.

You know, I did a book. I wrote, my daughter wrote with me some books and one was called Wake Me When It's Funny and it was through Phil Foster used to say I'm going to take a nap now do this two routines this contact lenses this this wake me when it's funny

and so scary man taking a nap should we wake him good pressure right so some of them would feed you stuff ideas and you build it out punch it up good pressure we'd like right right so some of them would feed you stuff ideas and you'd build it out punch it up some were

difficult and but the pressure that I learned has really helped me through the years Joey Bishop

I love him he would always get nervous and then you know we'd be at literally at the Sands Hotel

he was and we'd be backstage and he Sands Hotel, he was, and we'd be backstage and he'd say, oh, this sucks, I have no opening lines, I have nothing. And then so you'd say, well, how about this, how about this? Right, pitch them, yeah. And you'd hear the, ladies and gentlemen, the Sands Hotel, and you'd talk as fast as you can. Yeah, right.

But you've got such anxiety you have nothing gives me anxiety yeah and he was that a regular thing but he probably liked to do it that way oh yeah well all I mean all networks are the same you know they get all the pilots and then the last minute I hate everything

we got nothing yeah right right called insecurity of showbiz yeah never stops so what was the first big break then for the was it the odd couple Got nothing. Right, right. That's called insecurity of show business. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Never stops. So what was the first big break then? Was it The Odd Couple? We tried movies. What'd you do?

We did a movie called How Sweet It Is with Debbie Reynolds and James Garner. Oh, really? You wrote that? Yeah, we wrote the screenplay and then we did another movie which was quite good, I thought, called Grasshopper

with Jackie Pissett and Jim Brown, actually. Oh, yeah, yeah. We got to be friends with Jim Brown. Was that early 70s, late 60s? Late 60s. Late 60s. And then in the middle of

the movie business was a little slow and we were not successful really. But in the middle they said, hey, Paramount called back. I said, you want to do The Odd Couple? We got The Odd Couple and we own it and you can write it. This is you and Belson? And me and Jerry Belson. We wrote a script and they said, this is no good, it's just like

Neil Simon writes. What do you want? Wouldn't you want that? He wrote good characters, don't you think? Anyway, it was on the air, it was a hit and one of my happiest stories,

Neil Simon hated us and the show. They made a deal to help him with the and one of my happiest stories, Neil Simon hated us and the show. Yeah. Because he, you know, they made a deal to help him with the play, one of the greatest plays ever written. Oh, so he sold the rights out of desperation. Well, yeah, for very, very cheap because it's not making $2.

Right. Maybe $4. So he had nothing to do with the TV show. No, and he said in the press, I don't think it should be a TV show and this and that. But, you know, I believe that if you wait long enough, good is seen or at least acknowledged. Right, sure.

And by sheer luck, his daughter said to him once, you know, Dad, that's funny, that odd couple. Those two guys, Cluster and Randall. So he watched it then wrote us a beautiful letter to Art me and Jerry Pelson

saying you guys are doing a good job and just to be nice we said would you like to come on the show and he appeared on my odd couple

and Jerry and I and he I said you gotta bring your daughter you can't just come yourself so he did and he was on the show.

So we became friends ever since. Yeah, that's sweet. Well, you know, it was because you honored his characters, right? I imagine. Oh, yeah. We didn't make one a pirate or something. Right, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So, okay, so you do this great thing with the odd couple. Five years on the air? Five years. Good. And finally, that was the benchmark. You had to do five years. And you were writing all, you had a staff, right? What was the credit on that?

Oh, man, it was 10 writers. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We were the showrunners. That was the first. We were showrunners on Hey Landlord, but we didn't know how to do it. Right. But we did know how. When you create a show, they make you a producer.

The first thing you have to do as a producer is hire yourself as a director, because nobody else will. So we got, right, Jeffrey and I also got in the guild, director's guild. But I must say, we learned to showrun on The Odd Couple. And showrunner was,

I guess it had been around a long time, but as a job, it was a relatively new job in television, right? Yeah, they used to, years they went from radio to TV. What they did originally is take all the great radio writers who wrote stories and wrote this sitcom, Ozzie and Harriet, to Beaver. And then somebody said, why don't we get

some of the joke writers from Fred Allen, Jack Benny. And they said, they don't know how to make a story. And they said, well, we're having trouble

teaching the story writers how to write jokes. Maybe we can teach the joke writers how to write stories. And that changed the business. And that hikened Sergeant Bill. It changed the whole business. And all the joke writers how to write stories and that changed the business and that hike in the Sergeant Bill

changed the whole business and all the comedy writers would love joke writers. And that's how and that was how modern television was invented. That was how

modern television was invented. And as a showrunner you ran the room and you ran the Ten writers and you had to be not only

the buck stopped at you you had to be a great picker and I seemed to have a good talent as a picker. Writing was okay, but I could, wait, wait, that guy over there, because I remember Neil Simon never spoke on Sid Caesar, only Danny spoke.

And once in a while, Carl would say, wait, wait, Neil said something. Say it a little louder, Neil. And so I could pick them, and I got a lot of writers. And you would run interference between the show and the network? And, you know, you'd go between. I got to say, the network didn't bud in so much in those days. Oh, yeah?

I mean, they're much more on top of it now but they were happy it was working if it was making money right yeah happy days ran 11 years after like five or six years i never saw anybody from the network nobody came around they didn't care what we were doing and then so the odd couple's on and you're doing other stuff, right? Before, what, did you actually work on Love American Style? No, that was, I did, but the thing was, in those days they had a very good plan. If you made a pilot and it was no good, they didn't throw it away. Yeah. They would put it on Love American Style and just change the title.

So just scripts floating around. Yeah. Stories. So I wrote a pilot. Yeah. For Happy Days and it didn the title. So just scripts floating around. Yeah. So I wrote a pilot for Happy Days, and it didn't sell, but they put it right on a Love America site. That was the first time those characters appeared?

Yeah, New Neighborhood. Love and the New Neighbors or something they called it. And that was the beginning of Happy Days? That was my first pilot, and then they... With the same characters? Pretty much. No Fonzie. Yeah. It was Ritchie and Patsy and Howard.

And the original had Ron Howard and Marianne Ross. Huh. And there was that whole story. One of my best friends from Korea, from the box office business, was a casting director for George Lucas on American Graffiti. Yeah. And he said, we're doing 50s. You got an old 50s pilot you did last year?

I said, yeah. And I sent it to him. That's where they hired Ron Howard for American Graffiti. No kidding. It was out of that. Out of the thing you wrote for Love American style. Yeah. And out of that, American Graffiti became a smash. Gre, American graffiti became a smash.

Grease on Broadway became a smash. And the TV people said, don't we have that? And somebody says, we have that. Who did that? Tell them to do it again. And by then, Belson, my partner, was going into movies. So we kind of broke up. But I asked him, you want to come on?

I got this new show. and i got a new character and he now he said gary said there's something funsy fancy something crazy right a nice family i don't want to i like edgy i like this yeah he never came with me does he regret that uh he has unfortunately passed away He regrets it a little financially. Yeah. He was not so. Did he write some good movies? He wrote for Spielberg, a lot of punch-ups. Oh, yeah?

Oh, okay. He was probably the funniest person I ever met was my mother. Funniest guy ever was Jerry Belson. Okay, so now that's amazing to me because I vaguely remember Love, American Style from when I was a kid. I was about nine or ten. But I remember it was a little racy and it was always different and every funny guy on television showed up there. Yeah, I wrote some special, I wrote some episodes of it later. I was fascinated by the fact that a tuba, I like music, and a tuba was used in Dixie, which I play.

So I said, how about I trap two people in a tuba, I like music, and a tuba was used in Dixie, which I played. So I said, how about I trap two people in a tuba? So I literally got a tuba and made my wife get in under the tuba. And obviously we didn't fit, so we had to make a special tuba, and I did Love and the Tuba. Frankie Avalon and I forget the girl. It was a sketch basically

yes but that was Love America sure all sketches all sketches and then just this show material they used to call it filler

I wrote a lot of those yeah I remember it was funny because you get to see like Artie Johnson everybody was on it yeah wow

alright so then Happy Day starts you're saying that the nostalgia craze was upon us. Yeah. And how did you bring that all together? How did you cast that? Did you see Winkler and Lords of Flatbush? Or how did that work? Or was that later? That might have been

later, right? No, first Ron Howard did it. People keep saying, you create these things. I have never created television. I create, and then it evolves. And if you stop it from evolving, you go off the air. But we started with I thought the show was about Patsy and Richie,

Howard and Anson Williams. But then Michael Eisner had seen American Graffiti. He was an agent at the time? He was the head of Paramount. Michael Eisner, the head offfiti. He was the agent at the time? He was the head of Paramount. Michael Eisner, the head of Disney later. Yeah, right.

Yeah, we went together. But he said, it shouldn't be about this nice family. It should be about a gang. And I said, I'm not sure. He said, well, somewhere get a gang in. And I said, we have no money for a gang. How about I get one guy who'll represent the gang? So we got, for the second time we did the pilot,

I added Fonzie. Winkler, yeah. Where'd you see him? I didn't. He came in to audition. I wanted a tall Italian guy from the streets of the Bronx and they sent me a very short Jewish guy from

the streets of Long Island. But lo and behold, Henry Winkler was such a good actor that he put on the jacket and there was Fonzie before my eyes in my office. I saw it and I said whoop, that's him. Let's hire him am and he became one

of the better human beings i ever met in show business henry yeah i talked to him in here he's a sweet man very sweet man good guy yeah and and that fonzie character i mean i was a kid so what so happy days runs what 70 40 80 10 years and that's why i'm 11 through whatever 21 but but i remember when i was a kid you know you're walking around going hey hitting things you know it was something else guys in my neighborhood who never spoke much but one day they'd hug you next day they hit you in the head so uh those silent types worked well for me and And I think eventually that Henry Winkler became such a star that we shifted the whole happy days to him because I always wanted

Richie to have an older brother. Yeah. And I had two of them. Yeah. And they were gone. People still ask, what happened to Chuck? I said, Chuck, I had to leave. Oh, you tried it a couple of times. Yeah, twice. That's right. Yeah, ask, what happened to Chuck? I said, Chuck Bradley. Oh, you tried it a couple of times.

Yeah, twice. That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember he was like a college kid, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. We were trying, didn't work. Now, over the years, it was on TV longer than most sitcoms ever were.

Longer than most marriages. Yeah, yeah. And also, you get the term jumping the shark from happy days. Yes, that's right. Now, when you're in that position where you got a good thing going and it changed the culture, it changed people's lives, people loved the thing, what was the decision process? How does that work?

How does it stay on the air so long? Did they just kept making money? Yeah, it kept playing. It partially changed the industry that usually people bid on reruns you know and they said how mine there was this whole sale and right they'd say if you buy this show you get this show right and with happy days a very smart man at paramount said bid on it there's no price on happy days bid on it. There's no price on Happy Days. Bid on it.

Right. And everybody worried about, oh, what if the other station gets it? The syndicators. Syndicators. WPIX in New York. Right, right. And the price went up, and now everybody does that. But that was the first one to do it. So they left it on.

Right. The incentive was, if it had such a big syndication market, let's just keep making them. Yeah. And then they understood, Fred Silverman came in and understood that you wanted to get an hour. So he said to me, create something behind Happy Days, quick. So you could partner it with something. Yeah. And that's where Laverne and Shirley.

Laverne and Shirley. And now what was your relationship with your sister at this time? Was she acting? Was she... She was a stunt lady and my mother, you know, it's always family.

Penny Marshall was a stunt lady? Yes. On Savage 7. She got knocked off a bike. And you were out, you were both out here though and you saw her. Yes, she had come here.

No, my mother called and said, get your sister a job. She's dating morons. I remember clear as a bill. She said it so clear. And that's when she went on Odd Couple as a secretary. Right, right. Jack Klugman, Tony Reynolds taught her a lot about acting.

And then she was a writer when we did Laverne Shirley, and we made a show. They were on Happy Days. It's not so hard to find people when they're on one show. Fred Silverman was the king of spin-offs. And he'd always say, your actors are fine. Find out who's guesting that's interesting and make a show. He started all that.

Oh, that was him? Really, Fred Silverman. Because that doesn't happen too much anymore. Well, not as well as they did. Not the same way. Not the same way. Right, where they could coexist. Yeah.

You know, like you could have both shows on. Very well. They take people off Seinfeld. Sure, sure, but not with the same character. No, no, not that way. And you had Lenny and Squiggy, I just remembered. Michael McKean's a genius. Yes.

Oh, he's giant now yeah yeah and he we tried a pilot for them it didn't work but we got Robert Williams off Happy Days too and now yeah so you got your sister doing Laverne Shirley which becomes a big hit her and Cindy Williams right that was her name yes and now she was in American Graffiti she was great in American Graffiti right yeah and that went on for years So you have both of these things running together. Cindy was in the conversation, was wanting to be a real actress and just did. Oh, Coppola's movie with Hackman?

Yeah. Yeah. She did a fave, I'll do it, but it won't sell. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. Yeah, and there you go. And Mork, who came up with, how did you come in touch with Robin?

Well, this is a story I've told. That's okay. I have three kids and two girls and a boy. And my son wasn't watching Happy Days. He didn't watch it. He's the youngest. And I said, why won't you watch Happy Days? He says, there's no space people.

Because he loves Star Wars. I said, but it's the 50s. kids are smart he was seven yeah and he said they could dream and I went to the rise I said Fonzie doesn't have any new adversaries let's get an alien you should have seen the staring at me. Oh, yeah? What is he doing? But we created Mork for Mork and put him on the show. Did Robin come in on an audition? No, we were hiring people like John Biner and some wonderful comedians. Yeah.

And nobody wanted to do it. Yeah. And my sister Ronnienie i work with family was my casting person said there's a kid i talked to an agent alan swyman something yeah he said there's a new kid and i literally said what has he done and she said he stands on the street corner and he makes noises and imitations and and he passes the hat i said that's the credit he has to be on the number one show she said yeah he has a very full hat yeah he's a street performer yes he was and he came in i think he did one job for george slaughter somewhere but nobody knew and he came in and he literally did the audition

standing on his head and never missed a line. And we put him in Happy Day. We were so desperate. We start Monday to Friday. We didn't have an act of it. You didn't have your alien. Didn't have an alien. Yeah.

I said, and luckily some people are nicer than others, and Ron Howard and Henry Winkler. I said, this guy is coming in as the alien. He's a little green. So help him. And they did. And he did the, did the episode as the alien. And at the end I, I announced Fonzie. I announced Ron Howard. and they stood up for Robin no kidding it was a day play in the in the live audience live audience 300 people just stood up no kidding who is that guy uh-huh so I said maybe he's something but maybe something but no my cameraman said one day you know those two girls you played from the other side of the tracks that's a two shot yeah it'd be good make that show so i listen but i must say when when we

again what i just said when the network hated all their pilots and the last two days, Eisner came in and said, what do you got? They're desperate. Say anything. And I, of course, called the network and I said, did you see the episode with Robin Williams?

They said no. Yeah. But again, there's always hope. One voice, a girl, I heard her say, her name was Marcy Carsey.

She was the lowest of the low. She said, I saw it. He was very good uh-huh and she said he could be so I said yes more for more yeah well where is it I said and I'm crazy so I think when they say where is it I say where can I eat where can I get a bed I'll be cold I said I have a niece in boulder i said to my boulder colorado a totally unique place perfect and they said what's the name of it i said it's called the more chronicles about alien yeah and then it was this silence and i heard nobody knows what chronicles means yeah yeah i said there's us on the phone. How many of you don't know what Chronicle means?

Well, you can't name it. And Marcy Smart said, no, they want to name pets. It's like Laverne and Shirley. You need pets. And Mork and Mindy, I said. I made up a name. I think I said Mork and Melissa. They didn't like it.

Yeah, yeah. But that's how the show... Marcy Carsey went on to be Carsey Warner? Yes. Yeah. She was smart as a whip that way.

Uh-huh. And her... Big production company. Yes. And again, random life circles. Her husband, John Carsey,

was one of the associate producers on the Jack Pa show. No kidding. That's how... It was the show business. Yes. It show. No kidding. That's how you do it. It's what's the show business. Yeah. It was a smaller business.

Right? For me, it's all circles. Yeah, yeah. And that show was amazing. And Robin became a huge star. Oh, he became a star. Sweet guy. Oh, sweet as heck.

He was a lovely guy and had some demons. Sure. And I always said, you know had how I kept my shows together I had softball teams traveling softball teams traveled to big stadiums and this and that but Robin

didn't want to play softball so much he didn't he mostly just liked working but he was the best I ever worked with as far as comedy genius no question yeah and he could do anything.

Pretty much. He could make you laugh any time of day, night, in any way. I'm surprised you didn't do any movies with him. No, we were close and we wanted to do, but he did a wonderful movie with my sister Penny called Awakenings. Yes. I thought she'd have won some prizes because that was a wonderful movie. Did you give Penny her first directing job, I imagine?

I made a direct on Laverne Shirley. She directed and did pretty good. Then you want to hear the feminist side of the world? Yeah. She went to the studios and said, I'd like to direct. They actually said to her, we don't like women directors. We don't think that they have a mindset and they won't come up with ideas that would reach a mass audience. They said that. Penny is not really a feminist, but said, I'll show them. And she was the first woman director

ever to break the $100 million benchmark. She made two pictures that made over $100 million. Big and legal their own. Yeah. And was the first woman director ever to do that. Others have, but Penny was the first, so I'm quite proud of her. Yeah, it's great. That's amazing.

And you started making your own movies. I mean, obviously, you did a lot more television, and you're still involved with television, but the movie started when? Like later, right? Yeah, late 80s. I said, I'll try theater. Here's a trivia.

What was the show at the Winter Garden in New York before Cats? Oh, I should know. I'll tell you. It was called The Roast. I wrote it. Winter Garden, New York, before Cats. Oh. I should know. I'll tell you. It was called The Roast. I wrote it. Yeah.

The Roast lasted three nights. Cats ran 18 years. Aren't you glad you had me as a guest? Three nights against 18 years. Is that what made you realize maybe plays aren't my thing? Well, no. No, it truly was not the greatest play. But again, I always have these stories where out of this comes that. It was in Boston.

They got terrible reviews in Boston. But this head usher loves it. He said, this is funny. Yes, it wasn't a good play. What was it about? It was about a comedian being roasted by a guy who was like his son, but he turned on him. It had some drama,

but there was a 20-minute hunk that was really funny. But the rest wasn't good. Anyway, we died. It was over. But the usher, I always remembered him. His name was Jason Alexander.

I always have these stories. They're all true. Years later, I'm trying to find somebody for Pretty Woman. And I said, what is that kid? I don't know if he's funny, but he likes humor. He's a song and dance man. He's no good. No, let me audition him now you audition him

i wasn't there on tape with richard gear and i said he's wonderful i said what's wonderful i said he makes richard gear funny perfect together and that's what we use and that's what happened pretty woman yeah that's how why he was hired for pretty that's him you with Pretty Woman? Yeah, that's how, why he was hired for Pretty Woman. That's amazing. Now, Anusha, the one guy that liked your play. Yes. Well, Jerry Belson said, well, he has a good sense of humor. He was going to, I think, Boston College at the time. Very funny.

He's a very funny guy. Yeah, he's the greatest. But there are other movies, you know, like Flamingo Kid was a huge movie, great movie. Yeah, my first one was Young Doctors in Love, and I smoked and ate candy bars, and I was a mess. Really? I was going to quit. Quit what? Directing.

I said, this is not for me, this directing business. Why? I said, it's too exhausting. Right. It's craziness. And then my sister actually said well maybe this was a bad experience you'll see and then I got

Flamingo Kid that nobody wanted to make they thought it was about poker I thought it was about fathers and sons which I know about and that became a hit and that was fun making that was Matt Dillon, right? Yeah, Matt Dillon.

He's a great movie guy. He is good. But again, it's always cockeyed. I'm telling you, I had Matthew Broderick to play the lead in Flamingo Kid two weeks before he had to leave and do something else. No kidding. So Matt Dillon comes in after doing that Outsiders with Coppola or something.

Rumblefish too, right? Yeah, yeah. And he said, hi, I'm Matt Dillon. I said, hi. He said, you know, I don't do comedy. Good, I'm glad we hired you for the lead, boy. What a good thing. And then I said, I'll find what's

funny. And we found. He became very good. Yeah, and now he's find what's funny and we found he became very good yeah and now he's very funny i mean he did some oh yeah he did that mary something about mary right yeah he was great no i wrote him i said how funny he was and the whole thing but richard trenor was the guy who held that picture together oh yeah he passed away right yeah he was great and my biggest asset in my first movie which was not a hit was hector alexandro he's in every movie you do 18 out of 18 you love that guy i do we come from the streets of new york we play basketball together now we play softball i know i saw him in mother's day the guy doesn't look like he ages. We played ball yesterday. Yeah?

We played Thursdays. He's always there. Yes, he's always there. There he is. Always there. At the fountain in Mother's Day. They say he has so many characters he does. He has more toupees than anybody I know.

We go to his house, we pick a toupee, and he says, this is what you are. Mother's Day, which is very funny, he's bald in Mother's Day. Yeah, he just let it go. He let it happen. He said, you got too many stars in this picture. You don't want to wait for me in hair and makeup.

I'll be bald because the three girls are going to be terrific. He wore a hat, though. Yeah, yeah. And you got Kate Hudson and Julia Roberts. I had never worked, though. Yeah, yeah. And you got Kate. Marais. Yeah, you got Kate Hudson and Julia Roberts. I had never worked with her. Jennifer Aniston. Jennifer Aniston. Oh, she's so good.

Really good. She just was terrific. She's so prepared and can do anything. She can. And really is genuine. People say this, that, but she is a genuine person. You think it's really you're watching a friend i feel like that yeah she has that quality and yeah and this is like your what is your 15th

movie whatever how many 18 18 s character 18 that's right but you and some of them were it's like i got a question because you know you do flamingo kid beaches pretty woman frankie and johnny was a pretty big movie, right? The Princess Diaries was a big movie. But we started with you sort of admitting that sometimes they don't go. No, my worst in television was me and the chimp. You hear the applause, listen. And the movies, I had a few failures. But how do you, in retrospect, you know,

in terms of, you know, your logic around making them, and I imagine that, you know, you're enough of a guy that you've got sort of final cut with most things, right? It's harder now, but I did that for a long time. So what do you think happens when something doesn't work? Well, I think it all depends on what you call work. Two of my best pictures didn't

make a lot of money, which was nothing in common with Jackie Gleason and Tom Hanks. It was a terrific picture. I thought it came out at the wrong time or something. It didn't make money. But it's still very good. I love that movie. That was a salute to fathers. Yeah, yeah. It was a painful and beautiful movie

and Jackie was great. That was one of his last films, right? It was his last film. Oh my God. That was a good movie. That was how we got him to do it. Tom and I prepared how he should be in the movie. We had all this speech

and we went and Ray Stark, this producer, said, Jackie, you're not feeling well. If you don't do another movie and Ray Stark, this producer, said, Jackie, you're not feeling well. If you don't do another movie and you go, your last picture will be Smoking and the Bandit Part 2. Jackie said,

give me the fucking pen. And he signed and he did nothing. And he was ill during the shooting? A little bit, but he soon died after that. He was a wonderful man. But that got a very good critical

reaction? Very good critical. And another picture I did about a mentally challenged child, which I always want to do, was called The Other Sister. Yeah. Also a great critical reaction. Didn't make money. Right. And then Pretty Woman made money and this and that. But I would say the artist I did

was a picture you mentioned before, Exeter Evening. Yeah. Dan Aykroyd, Rosie O'Donnell. Yes. I wanted Sharon Stone and Don Johnson. Look at this casting worked out for me. But no, I thought, I truly believed that,

I love love stories, and I thought there could be a love story in every situation and I did delve into the world of S&M and said can there be love with all that stuff and I based

it on a book of a wonderful writer named Anne Rice who's the queen of vampires and she had some tragedy in her life and used to write erotica to get away. And I took her book and we did it, but it didn't work out. The company that was doing it wasn't a studio.

It didn't think it would be good and they made it a comedy. It really wasn't a comedy. So that's how things go wrong. Right. I think mostly what goes wrong with everybody's picture is when you and the money people are not making the same film. Right.

And that happens a lot. And then there's arguments about it. Yeah, and then... You need to go, you compromise. You compromise and sometimes money wins, sometimes you win, but it's never good. I have avoided it a lot of times, and sometimes I haven't. Yeah.

And you also, outside of making all these movies, you like to show up in things. You like to act. My acting. I tell you, man, the scene in, you know, like, I didn't know who you were when I saw Lost in America. I don't know who you were then. I wasn't in show business. It's one of the best scenes in the world.

Wow, thank you. And Albert Brooks in and you it was just yeah that was hilarious and now how how did he cast you in that he he Rob Reiner and my sister Penny were married right sure brief time yeah they had the best parties in Hollywood yeah and I would go to them and Albert all the funny people would be there and Albert said to me once I need you he says you talk like a gangster he says I need somebody nobody knows yeah nobody knows you yeah particularly yeah and so he asked me as the casino owner and they thought I was the casino owner and he directed me and you know we did like 17 takes and he didn't write it all. I must say, again, this random stuff.

That picture, Albert wrote with Jerry Belson's sister. No kidding. No kidding. Monica Johnson, Miss Jerry Belson's kid sister. It all comes around. It does come around,

but we had a good time. I enjoyed that part. The line where you go we're finished talking do you yeah how's it hold up pretty good right you guys makes me laugh sandy close that's what monica johnson sandy close that was funny albert books is i got another great genius. Oh, he is, yeah. Well, you did a lot of acting, and people see,

I bet you that's where a lot of the funny people started to, that was your big break as an actor in the funny stuff, right? Yeah, well, I do like it, and it sounds corny, but I like to act, and I try to act just before I direct because I remember then what an actor goes through. Right, right. And where they're vulnerable and where they're not. And I must say I spend as much time before action,

before and after cut as I do between action and cut. Because you want to know what's going on and I know how I felt. And you did, well, we can't go through everything, but you did work with my friend Louie. Louie, oh, he was great. And you know how well, I mean, we can't go through everything, but you did work with my friend Louie. Louie, oh, he was great. And you know how stupid I am. I can't always keep up, and this guy called me,

and he said, hello, Louie C.K. I said, hi. He says, you play bosses. I said, yeah. I have a suit that I... He says, so I want you to be on my show. I asked my son yeah who shoots all my second unit he shoots all yes so i said who is louis ck yeah and my job he's the greatest he's

the greatest and i went i met him and i really liked him we had a great time yeah it's quite funny and the new movie's out the new movie movie. Mother's Day. Mother's Day. All right. Well, it was great talking to you. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I like sitting and chatting. I can tell stories. You got another one?

You got another one that you like to tell that you didn't tell? I was trying to say, because I'm a little, you do dirty jokes. I can't tell the dirty jokes. Go ahead. I just, Robin Williams loved to do dirty stuff, which we had to cut out, but he did it. But what he loved to do is tell riddles to Pam Darber, and it would be dirty, and she would blush. Pam Darber was a riddle.

So one day the writers found out what joke he was going to say, and they told her the punchline. So he goes out in the middle of the scene. He says, what happens when you cross a donkey with an onion? And the guys told, and Pam said, you get a piece of ass that'll make your eyes water. And that's the only time I saw Robin speechless. He looked around stunned.

What? So that was one of my favorite Robin stories. May he rest in peace. Yeah. Well, thank you for sharing all this stuff. And it was great to see you again. Good to see you. I forgot.

Now I'll remember this interview. You'll remember this one. I will. Thank you, Gary. Thank's all right. Now I'll remember this interview. You'll remember this one. I will. Thank you, Gary. Thank you so much. Take care. That was fun. You know, most people get sweeter as they get older.

A lot of people, like I'm seeing that in my own life. But what a sweet guy, funny guy, good stories. He has that great accent, great talking to him. Go to WTFpod.com for all the WTFpod needs. Go to WTFpod.com slash tour for the Trippany link for my shows in May and June at the Trippany House in Los Angeles at the Steve Allen Theater. And anything else you might want, check out the new site. Very exciting. Very exciting. The site that Squarespace made us. Ali Wong on Thursday.

Her new special is fucking awesome. All right? Boomer lives!